1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,360 From India's largest. Newsroom, I'm Arun George and 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,280 this is the Times of India podcast. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,240 Towards the end of September. Doctor Siriya, Kabi Phillips. 4 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:21,440 Found that his Twitter or ex account had been suspended. 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,200 The thing is, Doctor Abby isn't just, as he describes himself, a 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,720 hepatologist, physician, scientist battling AYUSH 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,800 misinformation. He's the liver doctor on social 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,760 media with nearly 2,00,000 followers on ex alone. 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,600 His ex account was suspended because an Ayurveda drug 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,040 manufacturer went to a Bengaluru court against him. 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,400 The company was also seeking damages from him. 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,320 Doctor Abby responded by challenging the order in the 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,200 Karnataka High Court and the order was reversed earlier this 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,080 month. Even in the time that his ex 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,400 account was suspended, he got another legal notice demanding 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,760 ₹1,00,00,000 in damages from another Ayurveda drugs 17 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,290 manufacturer. Doctor Abby's most visible 18 00:00:58,290 --> 00:01:01,610 response to all of this has been to create an alternate handle on 19 00:01:01,610 --> 00:01:04,090 X in case the original handle goes down again. 20 00:01:04,569 --> 00:01:07,290 However, he hasn't changed a thing about what he shares on 21 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:10,050 the social media platform. You can still find photos of 22 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:12,490 infected livers and the medication that is believed to 23 00:01:12,490 --> 00:01:15,930 have caused them, and he still has caustic about alcohol and 24 00:01:15,930 --> 00:01:18,130 Ayurveda. Earlier this year, we spoke with 25 00:01:18,130 --> 00:01:21,210 Doctor Abby to understand what drives him, and we're bringing 26 00:01:21,210 --> 00:01:24,080 back that episode today. Presciently enough, among the 27 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,840 things we also discussed was what would happen if he was the 28 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,520 platform from social media, much like what did happen with him in 29 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:36,600 September. Towards the end of the film, 30 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,720 Andadun the Doctor in the film turns to the main character and 31 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,640 says what is life? Well. 32 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,600 It depends on the liver. In the time we spoke with Doctor 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,680 Syria Kabi Phillips, we didn't ask him how much he believes in 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,210 this statement. His name may not ring a bell 35 00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:53,210 immediately because Doctor Abby Phillips is better known by his. 36 00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:55,530 Social media handle the liver doc. 37 00:01:56,370 --> 00:01:59,970 His Twitter handle presently has over 1.3 lakh followers and he 38 00:01:59,970 --> 00:02:01,570 now has a YouTube channel as well. 39 00:02:02,410 --> 00:02:04,970 A specialist of the liver doctor, Phillips has been 40 00:02:04,970 --> 00:02:08,009 documenting the side effects of Ayurvedic and other alternative 41 00:02:08,009 --> 00:02:11,400 medicine for years now. He's endured threats, legal 42 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,400 notices and even an attack on the lab he did tests in. 43 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:16,920 But that's not stopped the Kerala based doctor from 44 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,200 debunking various claims by alternative medicines and health 45 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,680 products on a daily basis. My colleague Lata Misha and I 46 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,360 spoke with Doctor Phillips about his campaign against Ayurvedic 47 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,200 drugs. We spoke about the myth of 48 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,120 detoxification and how it's fueling the consumption of 49 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,440 health products with no known benefits, and possibly some 50 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,020 harmful ones. Can we also discuss why he's 51 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:40,460 opposed to Ayurveda and how he responds to the claim that he's 52 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:42,620 deliberately targeting AYUSH? Doctors? 53 00:02:44,940 --> 00:02:48,700 Doctor Phillips, we know that you've been studying this for a 54 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:53,740 while, but at what point did you start to sort of publicly debunk 55 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:57,500 the claims of drugs under Ayurveda and homeopathy? 56 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:03,220 In medicine, I think the most important aspect is to look at 57 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:06,480 preventive medicine. You know, you actually don't do 58 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,200 damage control. You prevent the damage from 59 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:10,560 happening. That is the most important 60 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,160 aspect of clinical medicine. So when I was actually 61 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,880 practicing since 2016 in Kerala, my whole aim was to actually 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,720 look at and study alcoholic liver disease. 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,800 But then I found this group of patients who had severe jaundice 64 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,040 and hepatitis that was actually not related to any common causes 65 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,360 that we could actually find most of these patients with the 66 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,300 toddlers. They were never taking any liver 67 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:38,220 toxic medications that we already know of. 68 00:03:38,340 --> 00:03:43,380 Then we figured out through a lot of clinical history and a 69 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:47,220 lot of investigative medicine that this was actually due to 70 00:03:47,220 --> 00:03:50,180 the multi herbal preparations that these patients were 71 00:03:50,180 --> 00:03:51,980 consuming. You know, they were taking it 72 00:03:51,980 --> 00:03:54,860 for a host of problems, for example, from diabetes to weight 73 00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:59,180 loss to, you know, gas trouble, and they actually developed 74 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:02,340 severe liver injury and jaundice due to these herbal medicines. 75 00:04:02,950 --> 00:04:07,030 And this was actually very much avoidable, right, because none 76 00:04:07,030 --> 00:04:10,910 of these herbal medicines are actually studied. 77 00:04:10,910 --> 00:04:13,310 Good trials have not been conducted on these herbal 78 00:04:13,310 --> 00:04:16,950 medicines for any of these symptom relief or disease 79 00:04:16,950 --> 00:04:20,070 management. So because they were misinformed 80 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:22,430 on that particular herbal preparation. 81 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,880 They took that and developed a new disease, something that 82 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 should not have happened to them and some of these patients 83 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,720 actually died because of liver failure and some of them 84 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,800 actually had to undergo liver transplant which is actually 85 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,080 very big health and financial burden. 86 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,200 Once we actually started to see more and more of these cases 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,320 where patients developing severe liver injury due to herbal 88 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,400 medicines or somebody with a stable pre-existing liver 89 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,960 disease suddenly deteriorating because of herbal medicine. 90 00:04:50,850 --> 00:04:54,250 It was important that we let people know that herbal does not 91 00:04:54,250 --> 00:04:57,530 mean natural and safe. It is actually untested and 92 00:04:57,530 --> 00:05:00,330 quite unsafe. So that is when I started 93 00:05:00,330 --> 00:05:02,450 talking about about it more publicly. 94 00:05:02,730 --> 00:05:06,330 Also based on the fact that we actually had a lot of research 95 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:08,850 backing us up. So this was not like, you know, 96 00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:11,530 I want to find I started talking about herbal medicines being 97 00:05:11,530 --> 00:05:13,850 bad. We have good published evidence 98 00:05:13,850 --> 00:05:16,690 that they are not useful and they can actually harm you. 99 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,800 So that is when I started publicly talking about how multi 100 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,880 herbal preparations or singular herbal preparations within 101 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,120 Ayurveda or homeopathy can actually harm you more than 102 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,240 benefiting. So I just want to clarify that 103 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,480 there is this sort of formalized Ayurveda where you have big drug 104 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,440 companies that manufacture your drugs and you also have, 105 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:41,340 especially in Kerala, you also have these smaller Ayurveda 106 00:05:41,340 --> 00:05:44,740 practitioners who may concoct their own mixtures based on, 107 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:46,820 say, their own gardens and things like that. 108 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,500 Which are you Speaking of? Are you Speaking of 1 or the 109 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:55,380 other or both? I'm actually talking about the 110 00:05:55,380 --> 00:05:57,100 whole spectrum in Ayurveda, right? 111 00:05:57,100 --> 00:06:00,820 So you have these classical or traditional Ayurvedic 112 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:03,300 formulations which can be made at home. 113 00:06:03,740 --> 00:06:05,660 By a traditional Ayurveda practitioner. 114 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:10,380 Or it can be actually made by a multinational or a national 115 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:13,860 level or a local pharmacy that manufacturers Ayurvedic 116 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:15,340 products. For example, you look at channel 117 00:06:15,340 --> 00:06:17,580 brush. Local pharmacies manufacture it, 118 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:20,620 even big names manufacture it and actually traditional 119 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:22,620 Ayurvedic practitioners can make it at home also. 120 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:24,020 So that is the traditional Ayurveda. 121 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:26,490 Then you have you have the proprietary Ayurveda. 122 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:29,210 So proprietary means something that is not traditionally or 123 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:31,770 classically mentioned or described in the classical 124 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:35,290 textbooks of Ayurveda, but the pharma companies themselves make 125 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:37,130 it up. For example, Corona from 126 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:40,610 Patanjali was a proprietary preparation even though it is 127 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:42,570 not mentioned anywhere in the classical text. 128 00:06:42,650 --> 00:06:46,370 Lev 52 from Himalaya is a very classical of traditional 129 00:06:46,370 --> 00:06:48,810 programming, proprietary preparation and there are 130 00:06:48,810 --> 00:06:51,400 multiple. Companies and products like 131 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,040 that. So I'm I'm actually talking 132 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,240 about all of these together because it's not a single herb 133 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,080 that is actually causing harm, but sometimes preparations of 134 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,880 herbs that can actually harm you more. 135 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,640 For example, if you look at turmeric preparations along with 136 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,840 green tea preparation, there are capsules where you can actually 137 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,280 have both that causes more liver injury than either turmeric 138 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,360 alone or green tea extract alone. 139 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,880 So I'm not talking specifically Ayurveda per SE, I'm talking 140 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,360 about multi herbal formulations in both Ayurveda and otherwise. 141 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,120 And how big is the scale of the problem by your estimate? 142 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,240 One of the biggest arguments that people actually make, I 143 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,960 mean even Ayurveda practitioners or somebody who has anecdotally 144 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,560 benefited from Ayurveda makes is that, you know, it has been 145 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,120 there for so long. If something is there for so 146 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,160 long, that doesn't mean that it is actually good. 147 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,080 That is known as, you know, appeal to time. 148 00:07:46,510 --> 00:07:49,110 You know, because something is there for so long, it's supposed 149 00:07:49,110 --> 00:07:52,470 to be good. But On the contrary, what we 150 00:07:52,470 --> 00:07:55,870 need is not, you know, appeal to time or tradition. 151 00:07:55,870 --> 00:07:57,150 What we need is actually evidence. 152 00:07:57,510 --> 00:08:00,310 For example, a classical example is chair and brush. 153 00:08:00,550 --> 00:08:03,310 So people have been consuming chair and brush for so long 154 00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:05,910 thinking that it is going to improve their health, prevent 155 00:08:06,190 --> 00:08:11,350 diseases until COVID struck. So when COVID came, a group of 156 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:13,470 Ayurveda practitioners actually studied. 157 00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:17,310 The effects of childbirash in the human body when it comes to 158 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:19,270 improving immunity or preventing infections. 159 00:08:19,270 --> 00:08:22,110 And they actually found that it did not and this paper is 160 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:24,590 actually published. I've actually tweeted about this 161 00:08:24,590 --> 00:08:26,670 also. So something that has been time 162 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:29,550 tested was actually proven wrong with a simple clinical trial. 163 00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:33,789 So this is what we should do. When it comes to any formulation 164 00:08:33,789 --> 00:08:36,669 that has been traditionally used, we actually have to find 165 00:08:36,669 --> 00:08:40,429 evidence for its benefits and also side by side look at its 166 00:08:40,429 --> 00:08:42,350 side effects. I would not call it as a 167 00:08:42,350 --> 00:08:45,910 problem, I would call it as a challenge, you know because it's 168 00:08:45,910 --> 00:08:48,670 it's ingrained into all of us. You know the use of Ayurvedic 169 00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:52,670 products is safe and beneficial. The challenge is actually big 170 00:08:52,670 --> 00:08:57,030 because my group initially identified that Ayurvedic herbal 171 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:59,070 products are actually harmful and that is the first 172 00:08:59,070 --> 00:09:03,470 publication that we did in 2017 eighteen and that actually 173 00:09:03,670 --> 00:09:07,190 busted a lot of myths regarding herbal formulations in India. 174 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Now when you look at publications from other groups 175 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,960 in the US and Europe and even in China, we can actually see that 176 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,080 herbal supplements, complementary and alternative 177 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,280 medicines are now the most important upcoming causes for 178 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,520 liver injury and liver failure in the Western world and also in 179 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,400 the Asia Pacific region. In fact, a recent large study 180 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,040 done by the Asia Pacific Association of Study of Liver 181 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,360 Diseases actually showed that the commonest cause for. 182 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:39,450 Stable liver disease suddenly becoming unstable and leading to 183 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:41,970 liver failure and death or transplantation was actually 184 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:44,250 complemented in alternative medicine and that is mostly 185 00:09:44,250 --> 00:09:47,210 because of traditional Chinese medicine and complement 186 00:09:47,210 --> 00:09:50,130 alternative medicine that is the Irish group of drugs that we use 187 00:09:50,130 --> 00:09:52,610 in India. So this is a big problem, but a 188 00:09:52,610 --> 00:09:56,530 lot of people are actually identifying it and I hope a lot 189 00:09:56,530 --> 00:10:01,210 more work from other groups help us identify how big or the big 190 00:10:01,250 --> 00:10:04,650 the actual magnitude of this challenge is in in our country. 191 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Would you be say more accepting of Ayurveda drugs if they did 192 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,360 come with that sort of test based approval or even if they 193 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,200 just had a sort of placebo effect as compared to the 194 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,320 current variant which you're seeing where you have active 195 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:22,240 problems being caused? By it. 196 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,600 Actually, placebo is not a drug. It's it's not a medicine at all. 197 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,760 So when people talk about giving something for a placebo effect, 198 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,600 that does not actually make sense because one. 199 00:10:34,060 --> 00:10:38,220 It is unnecessary financial expenditure for something that 200 00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:39,940 actually does not work and is not a medicine. 201 00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:44,500 And 2nd, we cannot call something a placebo unless it is 202 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:47,860 actually a dummy treatment. So for example, you look at 203 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:51,220 these herbal preparations, they have active plant components in 204 00:10:51,220 --> 00:10:56,940 it, for example curcumin in turmeric or agilin in Bale fruit 205 00:10:57,340 --> 00:11:01,580 or we can all in ashwagandha. These are all very bio active 206 00:11:01,580 --> 00:11:03,140 components that can actually harm. 207 00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:06,180 And there are a lot of studies published on harms of these 208 00:11:06,180 --> 00:11:07,540 particular bio active components. 209 00:11:07,540 --> 00:11:10,260 When you look at Ayurveda, I I could, I would never say that it 210 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:12,780 has a placebo effect. It could definitely harm someone 211 00:11:13,180 --> 00:11:17,020 and there are specific groups that can actually be harmed 212 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:19,740 more, for example, ones with already underlying liver disease 213 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:21,420 or underlying kidney disease etcetera. 214 00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:28,300 But even if somebody was at to study Ayurvedic formulation as 215 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:32,160 per your good scientific method. And come to a conclusion, take 216 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,560 the example of an Ayurvedic preparation which has about 10 217 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,760 herbs in it and then you put it in a randomized double-blind 218 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,960 control dryer and for example say for improvement of knee pain 219 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,160 and you compare it with the placebo which is the dummy 220 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,840 treatment and you say that this particular Ayurvedic formulation 221 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,040 reduces knee pain compared to placebo. 222 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,080 But the story does not end there. 223 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,680 What insight that formulation is actually doing that you know you 224 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:00,690 have 10 herbs in it? What is that actual component 225 00:12:00,690 --> 00:12:03,610 which is helping the patient or helping us reduce the pain? 226 00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:07,170 That is more important to ask because when you actually focus 227 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:10,570 on that particular component or a group of chemicals that 228 00:12:10,570 --> 00:12:13,570 actually is helping us reduce the pain, you will see that 229 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:15,290 everything else is just background noise. 230 00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:18,410 So you can actually remove all that other herbs and other 231 00:12:18,410 --> 00:12:21,730 components around it and make that particular formulation 232 00:12:21,730 --> 00:12:24,640 safer. That is where a modern medicine 233 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,240 or a modern drug actually improves. 234 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,760 So when I give paracetamol to a person, I actually know what 235 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,400 paracetamol does to the person inside the body, how it works 236 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,000 and what if I give additional, how it is going to harm that 237 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,560 patient or harm that person? I know it because we have 238 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,280 classical mechanisms of action and safety data, everything 239 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,480 available. So when it comes to Ayurvedic 240 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,680 formulations, I I'm not very sure that we can do that because 241 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:51,960 the formulations themselves are so complex. 242 00:12:52,430 --> 00:12:55,510 It's going to be chaotic. If you find a beneficial result, 243 00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:59,590 is it the lack of option that drives people towards these 244 00:12:59,590 --> 00:13:01,390 options? Because something like, say, 245 00:13:01,390 --> 00:13:04,830 cirrhosis of liver? You don't know what else to do, 246 00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:09,230 and sometimes you may receive a sort of prognosis that is very 247 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:12,710 negative and then there is nothing that why not reach out 248 00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:16,590 for this and see what happens? I think this is a very important 249 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:20,750 point because I think there are many factors that actually 250 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:22,840 drive. People towards alternative 251 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,320 medicine, away from science based medicine. 252 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,760 Number one is I would always say very poor communication from 253 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,280 modern medicine doctors. If I look at the patients that 254 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,120 I've been treating since last six or seven years, none of them 255 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,120 have actually gone for alternative medical treatments. 256 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:44,590 It's it's that simple because I tell them exactly what they have 257 00:13:44,590 --> 00:13:47,350 to hear about the disease condition, how the Natural 258 00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:50,070 History of the disease goes, and what are the treatment options 259 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:52,510 that one must actually expect at every stage. 260 00:13:52,990 --> 00:13:56,550 So if they know this beforehand, I I'm sure they would never opt 261 00:13:56,550 --> 00:14:00,110 for an alternative medicine which is actually going to be 262 00:14:00,110 --> 00:14:03,870 more harmful for them. So I think #1 point is that the 263 00:14:03,870 --> 00:14:07,150 modern medicine doctors are not empathetic enough towards the 264 00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:09,030 patient to actually communicate well. 265 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,360 About the disease condition, Second is definitely the 266 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,360 misinformation from both print and visual media where in a lot 267 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,680 of advertisements come up, a lot of claims of benefits of 268 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,160 alternative medicines come without actual evidence or any 269 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,760 substantial evidence to back them up, but advertisements are 270 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,480 colorful and people fall for it. Third is from the alternative 271 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:35,960 medicine practitioners themselves. 272 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,180 They have to create. An aura or or a bubble of 273 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:44,020 disinformation among the patients and the community, 274 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:47,660 which actually has very important aspects of science 275 00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:50,700 denialism and chemophobia. So they'll say that, you know, 276 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,180 modern medicine is all chemical and it's going to harm you in 277 00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:55,220 the long term. But this is a better option. 278 00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:57,460 It is safer. So that kind of disinformation 279 00:14:57,460 --> 00:15:00,700 actually is promoted by a lot of alternative medicine 280 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,220 practitioners because of which people are misled when it comes 281 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:08,310 to cirrhosis. It is definitely not reversible 282 00:15:08,390 --> 00:15:12,310 at beyond a particular stage. There are stages where cirrhosis 283 00:15:12,350 --> 00:15:15,150 is reversible and we have had patients who have actually 284 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:19,710 reversed cirrhosis because of a proper medical management and 285 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:21,270 other lifestyle changes. We have had that. 286 00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:23,430 I mean, I've had so many patients reverse the cirrhosis, 287 00:15:23,830 --> 00:15:26,430 but there are certain stages of cirrhosis which cannot be 288 00:15:26,430 --> 00:15:28,790 reversed and patients should actually go in for, you know, 289 00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:32,460 like a liver transplantation. So opting for a transplantation 290 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:35,220 actually does not mean it is a negative decision, It is a 291 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:37,060 positive decision. It is a positive decision 292 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:39,460 because the patient is going to get out of the chance at a long 293 00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:41,860 survival. So these things, the way we 294 00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:43,860 communicate these things to the patient matters. 295 00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:46,780 If there is some lapse in communication about what the 296 00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:49,460 disease is and how the disease is going to get managed, 297 00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:52,660 especially chronic diseases which we need longer time to 298 00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:55,260 deal with. I don't think the whole aspect 299 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:58,420 of alternative medicine will like feature anywhere in the in 300 00:15:58,420 --> 00:16:02,350 the disease management. I'm going to refer to a previous 301 00:16:02,350 --> 00:16:05,910 interview of yours and in which you spoke of stool samples being 302 00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:10,070 used to treat people now and how its roots lay in traditional 303 00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:14,030 Chinese medicine and it's something that you've used as 304 00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:17,590 well. Could that argument that you 305 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:20,230 know there are things within Ayurveda and Indian tradition, 306 00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:25,430 medicine that can be coming into modern medicine and used 307 00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:28,150 effectively if studied. Does that hold ground for you? 308 00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:33,660 I mean as an answer to this, I would say that you see in in 309 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:38,020 Ayurveda by its principles of, you know the obsolete theories 310 00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:42,140 of, you know, humors, which is actually vada Vida kapha, those 311 00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:45,420 are actually obsolete theories. So based on that principle there 312 00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:49,180 is nothing that is going to happen as a contribution from 313 00:16:49,220 --> 00:16:52,020 Ayurveda to modern medicine. But when you look at the large 314 00:16:52,020 --> 00:16:55,470 treasure trove of. Lot of herbal preparations and 315 00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:58,030 formulation that has been used for management of various 316 00:16:58,030 --> 00:17:02,110 symptoms across centuries. I think there is some evidence 317 00:17:02,110 --> 00:17:07,550 that we can actually identify new molecules that may benefit 318 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:09,390 various disease conditions in the future. 319 00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:15,069 But this is actually one of the most sophisticated arms of 320 00:17:15,190 --> 00:17:17,470 modern medicine. This is known as drug discovery. 321 00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:22,190 So if you look at metformin anti diabetes drug that is actually 322 00:17:22,190 --> 00:17:25,780 prepared from. The French lilac plant, you know 323 00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:29,900 if you look at an anti malaria like artemisin it is prepared 324 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,060 from another hub. So these are all from the 325 00:17:32,060 --> 00:17:34,220 classical texts that they have understood and they have 326 00:17:34,220 --> 00:17:37,460 identified and that is not done by Ireland's that is not done by 327 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:39,260 the alternative medicine practitioner, it is done by 328 00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:42,860 modern medical scientists and clinician scientists. 329 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:47,580 So there is still scope for drug discovery from herbal sources. 330 00:17:47,980 --> 00:17:51,260 But that does not mean that it is because of Ayurvedic wisdom. 331 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,540 That is a totally different scenario altogether. 332 00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:56,380 But in terms of people who do take, say, Ayurvedic 333 00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:58,780 preparations like you said in their daily life, how would 334 00:17:58,780 --> 00:18:02,260 they, say, observe this sort of damage that they're undergoing? 335 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:06,740 What would it manifest as? This is actually quite difficult 336 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:09,100 to answer. In our own studies, we have seen 337 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:13,220 that people consuming Ayurvedic formulations for few days. 338 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:17,460 Have developed severe liver injury and those who consumed it 339 00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:20,020 over a few months also have developed severe liver injury. 340 00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:24,060 So this is something known as idiosyncratic liver injury where 341 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:27,180 the dose does not matter or the duration does not matter. 342 00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:29,940 A particular Ayurvedic formulation can cause liver 343 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:33,340 injury with me in me within two days time and the same 344 00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:36,100 formulation can cause liver injury in another person in two 345 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:38,660 months time. The liver injury from these 346 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:41,520 medications can. This herbal formulation can 347 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,040 present in various matter and various manners. 348 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,720 For example, one is acute hepatitis with or without 349 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,240 jaundice. One is it can present as acute 350 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,680 liver failure when the patient develops jaundice and then 351 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,240 complete liver failure of because of which there is brain 352 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,640 failure, so that requires a liver transplant. 353 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,240 Third is they can just have you know, something known as 354 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,680 decompensation. For example, they have an 355 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,440 underlying liver disease which is stable. 356 00:19:04,860 --> 00:19:06,620 And then suddenly it becomes unstable. 357 00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:08,900 And then there is something known as acute and chronic liver 358 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,820 failure, where a cirrhosis patient on these herbal 359 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:14,540 formulations can suddenly develop severe liver injury and 360 00:19:14,540 --> 00:19:17,300 liver failure necessitating a liver transplant at the 361 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,220 earliest. So these are the various manners 362 00:19:20,220 --> 00:19:22,860 in which these herbal formulations can affect the a 363 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:25,460 person with a healthy liver and a person with an already 364 00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:28,900 underlying liver disease. It's not something like, you 365 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:34,060 know, only Ayurvedic, Ayurvedic medicines or Ayurvedic products 366 00:19:34,060 --> 00:19:37,020 are causing liver damage or liver problem. 367 00:19:37,380 --> 00:19:40,060 The Irish doctor saying that you look that doctor Phil Abby 368 00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:44,020 Phillips is deliberately doing it because government is funding 369 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:46,300 a lot. They call my worker propaganda 370 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:49,020 and all that. But the the the whole aspect is 371 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:51,660 that you know, I have evidence to showcase, right. 372 00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:54,150 I'm not just saying it. I'm not saying that modern 373 00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:56,430 medicines don't harm. I'm saying that alternative 374 00:19:56,430 --> 00:20:01,630 medicines can also harm. For example, if if I actually 375 00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:07,990 give a patient 500 milligrams of parastamol for fever, I I know 376 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:11,630 that in that patient, 99% of the time that is going to work, that 377 00:20:11,630 --> 00:20:13,590 parastorum is going to reduce that fever. 378 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:18,470 If I give that person about 5 grams of parastamol, I know that 379 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:21,270 the fever is going to go down, but then his liver also is going 380 00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:25,110 to get harmed. So that I have the data with me, 381 00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:28,070 I have that information. Now take the example of an 382 00:20:28,110 --> 00:20:29,870 Ayurvedic formulation, a Herbert formulation. 383 00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:33,710 It is not being tested. You have multiple ingredients in 384 00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:35,390 it. You don't know what each 385 00:20:35,390 --> 00:20:38,710 ingredient is going to do in your body and you have no idea 386 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:42,390 what the final effect of that is in the body because you don't 387 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:46,150 have any studies to back it up. So I give this particular 388 00:20:46,150 --> 00:20:48,670 Ayurvedic formulation to a person for fever. 389 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:52,270 His fever doesn't go away and he develops liver injury. 390 00:20:52,780 --> 00:20:56,540 So the whole aspect of modern medicine causing damage, the 391 00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:58,940 risk versus benefit, is what we have to look at. 392 00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:02,740 So I know that if I use a particular medicine in the 393 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:05,500 prescribed format in the recommended dose for the 394 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:09,380 recommended duration for that particular indication, that 395 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:11,940 person is not going to suffer from a side effect. 396 00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:15,940 But when you look at the other side, you have a product which 397 00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:19,420 has no dead down effect, no dead down side effect. 398 00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:22,890 Know that on the complete formulations or their 399 00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:26,210 interactions. And I give it blindly thinking 400 00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:29,930 that it may help and ultimately if it harms you look at the risk 401 00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:32,130 and benefit. The risk is much more than the 402 00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:33,850 benefit. But when it comes to modern 403 00:21:33,850 --> 00:21:36,650 medicines, benefits are much more than risk because we 404 00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:40,370 exactly know what we're doing. So that aspect is lacking in 405 00:21:40,730 --> 00:21:43,610 Irish practice because everything is based on blind 406 00:21:43,610 --> 00:21:46,450 faith and, you know, appeal to time use. 407 00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:49,490 For decades I have not seen any problem. 408 00:21:49,530 --> 00:21:52,370 So it's it's these are all anecdotal personal experiences 409 00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:54,050 that people and practitioners talk about. 410 00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:56,810 When I was actually discussing about alternative medicine 411 00:21:56,810 --> 00:22:00,450 practices and their harms, a lot of Ayurveda practitioners were 412 00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:02,850 actually responding with Gambian cancer of tragedy. 413 00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:07,240 Gambian cancer of tragedy. The the cuff syrup problem was 414 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,520 not because of the science. The ingredients in that cuff 415 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,560 syrup still works. It works. 416 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,200 We have evidence that it works. The problem was that it was 417 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,200 manufactured poorly. So just because it was 418 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,200 manufactured poorly, that doesn't mean that modern 419 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,960 medicine is bad. It just means that the 420 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,360 manufacturer is at work, right? So these kind of silly arguments 421 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:28,840 are very common for my practitioners and I don't think 422 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,280 we need to explain extensively according to them because 423 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,760 neither will they actually accept it. 424 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,040 Because for them I understand why they want to do it, because 425 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,480 it's their bread and butter. So I just let it go now. 426 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,480 I don't. I don't interact much on that 427 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,600 front. This term, detoxification, I'm 428 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,800 going into it because you mentioned that curcumin, which 429 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,120 is now suddenly is a craze of sorts, especially in the sort of 430 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,000 Wellness space where you have multiple. 431 00:22:54,910 --> 00:22:59,390 Tablets marketed as immunity boosters, as strength boosters 432 00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:02,710 and all kinds of things. And yet there is that demand for 433 00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:06,430 sort of detoxification by no one really quite knows what that 434 00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:09,590 means, whether it's alcohol or whether it's our other habits 435 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:15,630 that we want to detoxify from. Is there a detoxification cure 436 00:23:15,630 --> 00:23:21,110 of sorts that exist? I think this whole terminology 437 00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:26,190 called detox is actually a Wellness fraud term, which is 438 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:29,750 just use of marketing. So detoxification happens 439 00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:33,990 naturally in us through our liver and kidneys and that is a 440 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:37,230 natural physiological process. I mean there is nothing from 441 00:23:37,230 --> 00:23:41,390 outside that can detoxify that except if you have a liver 442 00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:45,040 failure then you have something known as a liver dialysis where 443 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,360 people are hooked on, hooked on to a machine that cleans all the 444 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,920 toxins out of your body, the liver failure patient and 445 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,280 similar with a kidney failure patient where they have 446 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,400 dialysis. So that is only detox that we 447 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,680 can actually do for people. You know not popping some pills 448 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,640 or drinking juice doesn't doesn't detox anybody. 449 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,280 And what people also should realize is that most of these 450 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,880 detoxes are multiple herbal formulations without any actual 451 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,360 known benefits. They just claim the benefits. 452 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,760 And for example, the Kurkumin 1 turmeric is now blacklisted by 453 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,840 the Italian government because in their pharmacovigilance data 454 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,160 program they found out that a large number of people suffered 455 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200 from hepatitis and jaundice and liver failure due to turmeric 456 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,800 based formulations. So there is no blacklisted in 457 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,280 Italy and if Day has issued warnings regarding turmeric 458 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,400 formulations based on the study by the drug induced Liver Injury 459 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,400 Network of United States. So these things are all coming 460 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,560 up because people are actually using it for all of these you 461 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,600 know marketed Wellness based quackeries. 462 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,760 If I may add that the more people realize that the detox is 463 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,920 actually a Wellness marketing fraudulent term, I think we'll 464 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,320 see lesser number of people developing unnecessary organ 465 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,010 injuries in the future. I remember this because you 466 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:05,490 tweeted, and it struck A chord with me, that even boiled 467 00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:07,450 vegetable juicing doesn't help in any way. 468 00:25:07,450 --> 00:25:11,890 No, I don't think so. I mean people do a lot of crazy 469 00:25:11,890 --> 00:25:13,450 things. For example, I mean I've had 470 00:25:13,450 --> 00:25:18,930 patients purely on a a fruit based diet, purely fruit based. 471 00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:22,290 And this is from advice from naturopaths, where they say that 472 00:25:22,290 --> 00:25:25,010 if you go on a fruitarian diet, you can actually detox your body 473 00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:27,490 more because all the chemicals and insecticides and the 474 00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:31,300 vegetables do not detain. And I've had a lot of patients 475 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:34,740 coming in after weeks of fruitarian diet, all 476 00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:38,740 malnourished, and they have actually gained so much of 477 00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:41,660 weight because of all the fruit sugars they've been having in 478 00:25:41,660 --> 00:25:44,460 the name of detox. And it's so difficult for us to 479 00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:48,210 actually get them back on their feet, rehab them from all that 480 00:25:48,530 --> 00:25:51,370 actual toxification that has been done to the brain. 481 00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:55,850 And I mean the whole aspect of food as medicine is one of the 482 00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:59,290 biggest problems that people are completely into and a lot of 483 00:25:59,290 --> 00:26:02,650 natural paths and functional medicine doctors, I may please 484 00:26:02,650 --> 00:26:06,130 add here that functional medicine is a complete crackery. 485 00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:08,530 Please don't follow it. Functional medicine 486 00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:12,010 practitioners actually promote a lot of naturopathy and they do a 487 00:26:12,010 --> 00:26:14,650 lot of these detoxes and it does not help anyone. 488 00:26:16,110 --> 00:26:20,030 Many celebrities are promoting these plant based protein 489 00:26:20,030 --> 00:26:22,870 powders. Is there any checks on on, you 490 00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:26,990 know, such such such such ads promote the promotions, whether 491 00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:31,510 they can go ahead with such ads. A lot of these products, they 492 00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:34,670 don't come under the category of drugs and medicine, drugs or 493 00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:36,830 medicine, right. So they are basically 494 00:26:37,230 --> 00:26:39,870 nutraceuticals. They're like Wellness products. 495 00:26:39,870 --> 00:26:43,630 They're like food supplements. All of these brand promotions 496 00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:46,710 are not based on any evidence for benefits. 497 00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:51,710 It's it's all the money. I myself actually had messages 498 00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:54,150 from some Ayurveda company. I mean, I I think they actually 499 00:26:54,150 --> 00:26:57,430 don't know my work, but they actually messaged me on Twitter 500 00:26:57,430 --> 00:27:00,230 saying that would you like to endorse this brand of ours on 501 00:27:00,230 --> 00:27:01,270 Instagram? We'll pay you. 502 00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:04,670 And they they they they said they'll pay me handsomely. 503 00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:08,650 So there are people who actually do that not because of the 504 00:27:08,690 --> 00:27:11,410 actual benefit of the product, but because of brand value 505 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:13,450 addition and also they get paid to do it. 506 00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:18,090 And I don't think there is a good regulation at the moment in 507 00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:21,530 our country for herbal and dietary supplements. 508 00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:24,010 Take the best regulatory agencies in the world. 509 00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:28,330 I mean for example, say USFDA, the FDA does not regulate herbal 510 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:31,330 and dietary supplements. They just look at toxicities, 511 00:27:31,370 --> 00:27:33,890 manufacturing practices and things like that and then just 512 00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:36,880 warn people. But if they somebody makes a 513 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,360 very false claim, for example, this herbal product will cure 514 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,560 your cancer, the FDA will pounce on it, right. 515 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,840 But even that line of management and regulation is not there in 516 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,080 India. For example, Baba Ramdev can 517 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,320 actually say that you know, doing this yoga and having the 518 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,520 supplement can cure your diabetes. 519 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,000 You don't have to take any modern medicine. 520 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,560 He can actually say that and get away with it. 521 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,640 So I think our country is way, way behind when it comes to 522 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,520 actually regulating real medical practice versus alternative 523 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,800 medical practice. I think both suffers here. 524 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,240 The real medical practice also is very poorly regulated and 525 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,720 alternative medical practice is also completely unregulated. 526 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,640 And as long as it stays like that, we can actually see a lot 527 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,600 of these celebrities endorsing a lot of products because it's 528 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,280 money for them and nothing more than that. 529 00:28:31,870 --> 00:28:34,270 We're in conversation with Doctor Abby Phillips, who's 530 00:28:34,270 --> 00:28:37,080 better known as the Liver Doc. Over the years he's been on 531 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,440 social media, Doctor Phillips says he faced plenty of abuse 532 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,400 initially, but is now seeing much more support for his work. 533 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,240 He talks about the challenges of taking a stand. 534 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,720 We also discussed the case of an influencer who faced legal 535 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,400 proceedings for his claim about sugar in a health drink. 536 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,960 And Doctor Phillips explains what those targeting medical 537 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,920 misinformation should do when they're targeted. 538 00:29:01,070 --> 00:29:05,270 You kind of started to speak out around the time the biggest push 539 00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:09,310 we've seen, perhaps for AYUSH has began, you know, and you've 540 00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:12,350 become a prominent voice on it on multiple social media 541 00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:14,710 platforms. Do you see them being more such 542 00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:18,990 voices since you started? How effective do you see your 543 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:22,030 work as being in the time since you started speaking out? 544 00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:26,750 Oh yes, I mean definitely there is a difference. 545 00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:30,710 So initially when I started to talk about how alternative 546 00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:34,070 medicine or alternative practice is actually, you know, harmful, 547 00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:39,350 I had a lot of backlash from the community, I mean especially 548 00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:42,110 from the practitioners themselves and also people who 549 00:29:42,350 --> 00:29:46,150 have had anecdotal benefits by using this Ayurveda homeopathy 550 00:29:46,150 --> 00:29:47,790 formulations. That was a difficult time 551 00:29:47,790 --> 00:29:50,110 because I was only person doing that. 552 00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:55,750 And as years went by and as the COVID pandemic also started 553 00:29:56,110 --> 00:30:00,490 unraveling itself, people started actually understanding 554 00:30:00,810 --> 00:30:03,890 what the scientific method is. You actually have something that 555 00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:06,370 works. You actually have something that 556 00:30:06,370 --> 00:30:09,970 claims to be working but then later on proven that it does not 557 00:30:09,970 --> 00:30:12,650 work and some things that actually doesn't work at all. 558 00:30:12,970 --> 00:30:16,250 So this kind of a scientific temperament actually has built 559 00:30:17,010 --> 00:30:19,290 within the community over the last few years. 560 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:23,970 And because of which when I talk about an alternative medicine or 561 00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:27,630 a formulation that can harm somebody, I am actually getting 562 00:30:27,670 --> 00:30:31,270 a lot of positive vibes from both patients and the general 563 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:34,670 community with regards to knowing about it more. 564 00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:38,110 You know, they will not just directly start, you know, have 565 00:30:38,110 --> 00:30:40,110 you seen me or crawling me on social media. 566 00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:42,350 What they would do is they would actually look at the evidence 567 00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:44,870 that I'm posting. Earlier you had this sort of 568 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:48,990 thing where a live 52 would be prescribed by a doctor, not by 569 00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:52,230 an Ayurvedic doctor, because it was deemed as something that 570 00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:54,430 would do no harm. Do you see that as having 571 00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:58,120 changed in any way because you've taken this specific 572 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,720 example? I mean, if you look at the 573 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,440 particular product, it is actually been there in the 574 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,840 market for decades. I still remember my father is a 575 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,800 very, very senior gastrologist. I mean he's been working for 576 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,280 almost for more than 4 decades in gastrology practice and I 577 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,480 still have a prescription from him that he wrote to a patient 578 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,320 in late 1970s where that patient actually had Hepatitis B and he 579 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,000 actually wrote a particular herbal medicine which is 580 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,960 philanders Neruri, which very commonly people use here in in 581 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,480 Kerala. So few years later, we actually 582 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,320 discovered the antiviral for Hepatitis B which is lamodine 583 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,320 and then came undercover and so many other antivirals came and 584 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,320 then he stopped prescribing that and then we had the proper 585 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,360 medicines for it. So in that sense a lot of 586 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,890 physicians who are not updated regarding actual medical 587 00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:52,410 treatment for their patients still have an old kind of 588 00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,130 thinking where you know you prescribe this also along with 589 00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:57,570 that. So that is how products like 590 00:31:57,690 --> 00:32:02,170 Live 52 actually survive plus there is a lot of marketing 591 00:32:02,170 --> 00:32:04,210 happening. So that is how modern medicine 592 00:32:04,210 --> 00:32:08,050 doctors are fooled into writing all these herbal products only 593 00:32:08,050 --> 00:32:11,490 because of ignorance and the absence of curiosity in getting 594 00:32:11,490 --> 00:32:13,930 themselves updated about the latest information which is 595 00:32:13,930 --> 00:32:17,790 going to benefit their patients. Once that comes into place. 596 00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:20,550 I I don't think such products will survive for long. 597 00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:23,230 And I'm I'm actually seeing a lot of people are actually 598 00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:28,110 reducing their prescriptions of such medications from their 599 00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:31,830 routine practice. You know, you're on Twitter, 600 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:35,310 you're on YouTube as well. Are there any perils of being 601 00:32:35,310 --> 00:32:39,390 this outspoken? I mean, of course, I mean lots. 602 00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:41,150 I mean perils have never left me. 603 00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:43,710 The whole issue is that alternative medicine industry is 604 00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:45,520 actually a very big industry, right. 605 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,720 I mean they talk about the big pharma, I mean that there is 606 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,200 also big pharma in alternative medicine industry. 607 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,240 So it's it's actually business, right. 608 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,480 So when businesses get hurt, they would want to hurt back. 609 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,200 So I've had a lot of backlash and challenges and problems and 610 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,960 issues from the alternative medicine industry from every 611 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,960 level. Look at private Ayurveda 612 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,440 companies. They have sued me 500 fires. 613 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,910 The government themselves are actually have actually send me 614 00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:18,510 legal letters. I have faced a lot of different 615 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:21,910 types of challenges which I'm least bothered is the one that I 616 00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:24,430 face on social media. You know that's just behind the 617 00:33:24,430 --> 00:33:26,670 keyboard, some guy doing something talking something 618 00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:28,630 that's that's OK we don't have to worry about it. 619 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:32,590 But there was an incident when a group of homeopaths actually 620 00:33:32,750 --> 00:33:36,710 came physically to the lab where I'm I was analyzing my products 621 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:40,030 and they actually verbally abused the lab members and got 622 00:33:40,030 --> 00:33:43,290 physical with the man. Actually put that on Facebook as 623 00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:46,610 a video and because of which I had to shut that lap down and 624 00:33:46,610 --> 00:33:49,730 stop getting services from the men, move my lap to another 625 00:33:49,730 --> 00:33:52,410 place. So that physical harassment also 626 00:33:52,410 --> 00:33:56,690 has happened to me and it could still happen, but I hope it does 627 00:33:56,690 --> 00:34:00,130 not happen to that extent where I have to stop doing it. 628 00:34:00,130 --> 00:34:03,450 And I hope people understand that everything good comes to 629 00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:05,610 the price. But I'm, I'm ready to pay the 630 00:34:05,650 --> 00:34:09,710 price. Do you also worry now especially 631 00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:12,550 of being taken off air for inconvenient views? 632 00:34:12,590 --> 00:34:15,230 You would also point out that there is an influencer who had a 633 00:34:15,230 --> 00:34:18,630 video about health drink and suddenly found himself D 634 00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:23,550 platform because the company was able to proclaim that it wasn't 635 00:34:23,550 --> 00:34:28,070 as bad as he claimed. Yeah, I mean this has happened 636 00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:31,949 to me before because I I know exactly the position that that 637 00:34:31,949 --> 00:34:34,790 person was in. You know, he's an he's an 638 00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:36,909 influencer on Instagram by the name Food Farmer. 639 00:34:37,210 --> 00:34:39,370 So I I know exactly what he went through. 640 00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:41,250 That is why I came in support of him. 641 00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:46,969 Because when initially I reported on a liver failure in a 642 00:34:47,290 --> 00:34:50,650 young woman who later died because of a herbal and nitric 643 00:34:50,650 --> 00:34:54,719 supplement manufactured by Herbalife, the company came 644 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,440 firing on all cylinders at me. And they sell me legal letters 645 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,080 and the best lawyers in the country against me. 646 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,080 And ultimately they threatened legally the publisher and the 647 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,320 journal and they actually removed my publication. 648 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,520 It's very well known. And at the time I was so scared 649 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,080 in the sense that will I go to jail? 650 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,320 Did I do something wrong? But I knew, I now know that, you 651 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080 know, I had the backing of science, but I did not have 652 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,800 backing of scientific people with me. 653 00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:23,630 So if the journal or the publisher had actually supported 654 00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:28,470 me and did not remove that particular article, I would say 655 00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:29,470 that nothing would have happened. 656 00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:32,870 You know, they they could not. They cannot come near me with a 657 00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:35,870 legal threat like that because everything was done As for 658 00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:37,750 evidence and I had the evidence backing it up. 659 00:35:38,030 --> 00:35:41,110 Similarly, in this case also there is good evidence that or 660 00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:44,910 the lack of it, that every every claim can easily be debunked. 661 00:35:45,530 --> 00:35:50,410 And even when I wrote about some products from Himalaya, I 662 00:35:50,410 --> 00:35:51,650 published this is published work. 663 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:55,730 It's it's there in the public. They actually send me legal 664 00:35:55,730 --> 00:35:59,090 letters and asked me to cease and desist from using the name 665 00:35:59,090 --> 00:36:00,370 on social media and things like that. 666 00:36:00,610 --> 00:36:03,010 So all of this has happened to me and it it will keep 667 00:36:03,010 --> 00:36:05,090 happening. But the whole last point is that 668 00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:08,050 if you have evidence to back your claims, I don't think 669 00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:11,090 people should be afraid of it. But doesn't it also? 670 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,000 Put you in a precarious position where the social media is how 671 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,600 you get your message out, and at the same time that is the very 672 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,920 thing that is threatened when it's deemed inconvenient by 673 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,680 somebody. And more so when we are also 674 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,600 talking when social media platforms themselves are going 675 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,000 to try and play safer than ever before. 676 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,720 I think putting everything out for the public to understand is 677 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,240 very important. For example, if the food farmer 678 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,390 actually kept quiet, he removed his video and he didn't say 679 00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:45,230 anything about it, you know, nobody will actually know about 680 00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:48,110 it and nobody would know actually know that. 681 00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:52,150 You know, everything that was claimed was actually true and 682 00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:55,030 whatever the big company did was actually wrong. 683 00:36:55,630 --> 00:37:01,590 So similarly, if something is happening to you wrongly or it 684 00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:06,150 is not justified, if we keep quiet about it, then that means 685 00:37:06,430 --> 00:37:09,760 others won't know about it. So I would, I would say that if 686 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,880 I say something in social media with proper evidence and I get 687 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,360 into trouble because of that, I keep talking about the trouble 688 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,480 that I'm getting into, that actually works because at some 689 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,080 point we can actually have proper evidence laid out on the 690 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,720 table for everyone to see. See, none of these companies 691 00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,320 will actually take us to court. I don't think so. 692 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,240 I mean, for example, if I say that a particular product from a 693 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:38,160 particular big company does not work and the company sends me 694 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,200 legal letter and we go to court and I can easily prove that it 695 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,640 does not work, they've had it and most of these companies will 696 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,880 only go a distance with you and they will never go the whole 697 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,560 distance. So that is something very 698 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,840 important, that people who communicate science and 699 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,120 communicates medical science and healthcare or misinformation in 700 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,880 healthcare must understand that you have to communicate with the 701 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,640 right evidence in place. No opinions, no exaggerations, 702 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,680 and absolutely no hearsay stuff about medical science. 703 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,840 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh, Sunay Marathi and 704 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,800 Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 705 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,600 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 706 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,400 We are available on Ty Plus, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts 707 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,400 and all other platforms of your choice. 708 00:38:36,090 --> 00:38:39,410 For any new. Steps e-mail us at toipodcast at 709 00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:40,930 timesinternet dot in.