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From India's largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
I have very pleasant, precious 

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memories of working closely with
Advanagi as well as Atal Bihari 

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Vajpayee. 
They were truly great. 

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I'm not saying this because I 
had the opportunity of working 

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closely with them, but they were
humble. 

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Power sat lightly on their 
shoulders. 

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Even when they were Prime 
Minister and Deputy Prime 

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Minister, they were as humble as
they were in the opposition. 

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And for the most part of their 
lives they were in the 

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opposition and a marginal 
opposition. 

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That is one quality. 
The other quality is to listen 

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to criticism, listen to other 
points of view. 

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I have seen how advantage 
engaged, you know people from 

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across the political spectrum, 
including communists. 

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Not many people know that he 
genuinely admired communists for

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their simplicity, for their 
honesty, for the selflessness. 

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He was a true Democrat. 
How many people know all these 

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facts about Advaniji? 
Do we see that culture today? 

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That's Sudindra Kulkarni who 
worked closely with LK Advani 

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when he was a member of the 
Bharatiya Janata Party. 

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On Sunday, the 31st of March, 
President Dropadi Murmur 

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presented LK Advani with the 
Bharat Ratna with Prime Minister

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Narendra Modi present. 
The Prime Minister also worked 

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with LK Advani during the Ram 
Janmabhoomi movement, which is 

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credited with making the BJP A 
dominant political force in the 

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country. 
Advani was there when the BJP 

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was founded and has represented 
the party in the Lok Sabha and 

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the Rajya Sabha for multiple 
terms. 

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He headed several ministries, 
served as Deputy Prime Minister 

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and was also the Leader of 
Opposition in the Lok Sabha. 

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In today's episode, my colleague
Alka Dukar and I spoke with 

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Sudindra Kulkarni about LK 
Advani, a leader he worked 

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closely with for over a decade, 
Kulkarni is an author and 

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columnist and worked in the 
Prime Minister's office between 

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2000 and 2004. 
He explains the lessons from Elk

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Advani's political career for 
contemporary times and also 

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decoded the big political 
controversy in Advani's 

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political career. 
In 2005, Alka started by asking 

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him about the criticism from 
some quarters over the awarding 

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of India's highest civilian 
award to Advani. 

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Unlike many liberals and 
progressive people in India who 

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criticize the choice of Lal 
Krishna Advani for Bharat Ratna,

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you have called him a truly 
Bharat Ratna. 

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You have been talking about 
Advani's contribution to defense

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of democracy. 
Advantage is today 96, and of 

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course he's not active in 
politics or public life. 

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But for over 7 decades he served
the nation with exemplary 

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dedication and commitment in 
multiple capacities. 

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And I see the Bharat Ratna as a 
recognition for his service to 

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the nation in these multiple 
capacities. 

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I count 4 major contributions of
Advantage to national life. 

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The first one that he's along 
with Atal Bihari Vajpayee, he 

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built an alternative poll in 
Indian polity. 

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We all know that until the late 
70s or mid 70s the Indian 

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political establishment was 
completely dominated by the 

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Congress party. 
It was a one poll political 

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system, Unipolar and Advantage 
had often talked about right 

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from the 70s onwards that for 
democracy to become healthier 

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and more mature and more 
accountable, more responsive, 

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this unipolar system needs to be
transformed into a bipolar 

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system. 
There should be a strong stable 

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alternative. 
And he was able, along with 

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Vajpayeeji and all others in the
party Janata Party to create the

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BJP as the second poll of Indian
political system. 

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Of course, there are other polls
in the form of regional parties,

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but two major national parties, 
the Congress on the one side, 

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the BJP on the other other side.
This is, I see as advantages, 

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major contribution to 
transforming the political 

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landscape. 
Sudinder Kulkarni says Advani's 

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big contribution to India's 
politics was working to defend 

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democracy at a time when 
political opponents of the 

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Congress government were being 
thrown into prison. 

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He explains why Advani's conduct
during the Emergency holds 

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lessons for the present 
supporters of the BJP as well. 

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In 1975, Indira Gandhi imposed 
the Emergency. 

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The Emergency between 1975 and 
1977 is the darkest period in 

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India's history. 
India's history as a democracy. 

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So there was no democracy left. 
Elections were postponed. 

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Elections were meant to be held 
in 76, but elections postponed. 

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The judiciary was tamed and 
enslaved. 

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There was absolutely no press 
freedom. 

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Total censorship. 10s of 
thousands of political activists

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and leaders were imprisoned and 
among the people who went to 

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jail who were sent to jail was 
LK Advani who spent 19 months in

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jail. 
Along with of course many other 

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veteran leaders like Jaya 
Prakash Narayan, Chandra 

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Shekhar, Muraji Desai Bajpaiji 
himself, Madhu Dandavate, George

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Fernandez. 
But the point I am making is 

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that this was the the most 
serious assault on democracy 

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that India has seen. 
And it was advantage along with 

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others who fought against the 
Emergency. 

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And after the Emergency was 
lifted, Indira Gandhi was forced

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to lift the Emergency and call 
for elections. 

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She was ousted from power. 
The Janata Party came into 

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office and as the minister in 
Muraji, Desai's government 

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advantage played the leading 
role in dismantling the entire 

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legal superstructure of 
authoritative missile. 

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It goes to show that he was not 
just a political fighter for 

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democracy, he was an 
intellectual fighter for 

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democracy. 
This point is especially 

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significant because we are once 
again seeing a major threat to 

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democracy even though Emergency 
is not declared officially. 

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Therefore, it is necessary for 
all of us, those who are in the 

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BJP and those who are outside 
the BJP, to look back to our own

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history and take proper lessons 
from how people of that 

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generation ought for democracy. 
Advanagi was one of them. 

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LK Advani's contribution to the 
Ram Mandir, which was 

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inaugurated in January this 
year, is massive. 

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He held the rathyatra and was in
Ayodhya in 1992 when the Babri 

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Masjid was demolished on the 
disputed side. 

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Sudinder Kulkarni says Al 
Khadwani's challenges to what 

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the leader termed as pseudo 
secularism is a major 

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contribution to politics in 
India. 

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He says another major 
contribution was Al Khadwani's 

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many attempts to repair ties 
with Pakistan. 

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He challenged what he called 
pseudo secularism. 

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That is secularism that was 
practiced as appeasement of of a

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certain kind, only to get votes 
for the Congress party and other

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so-called secular parties. 
And this issue came up when he 

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led the Ram Janmabhoomi movement
between 8989 and 19. 

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He took out the Rath Yatra to 
mobilize support for Ram temple 

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at Ram Janmukumi in Ayodhya. 
And we all know that this 

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received enormous support even 
though it must be pointed out 

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that he was not the first to 
raise the demand for Ram temple 

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nor the Vishwahindu Parishad or 
the Sun Pariva. 

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The demand for Ram temple 
preceded at Vaniji and many of 

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those people whose who raise 
this demand were Congress 

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leaders such as Uljarila Nanda 
who became India's Prime 

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Minister on 2 occasions as 
interim Prime Minister. 

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There were many other Congress 
leaders, Rajiv Gandhi himself 

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when he was Prime Minister. 
He made a significant 

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contribution. 
But the point I'm making is that

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this is, I regard as advantages,
third most important 

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contribution. 
And lastly, even though he was 

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president of the Bharatiya 
Janata Party, even though he was

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Deputy Prime Minister under Atal
Bihari Vajpayee, he along with 

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Vajpayee Ji made honest, 
consistent effort to normalize 

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relations with Pakistan. 
He truly believed that Partition

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was a tragedy. 
Partition cannot be undone, but 

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at least the negative effects of
Partition can be undone and must

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be undone. 
And therefore he took a very 

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bold, uncharacteristic decision 
of going to Pakistan in 2005 

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when he was the president of the
BJP. 

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I'm saying this because if we 
want to remove all the divisions

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and prejudices and bitterness 
that we see between Hindus and 

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Muslims in India, one thing that
we should do is normalize 

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relations for Pakistan. 
The extent to which India, 

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Pakistan relations become better
become harmonious. 

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Peace, cooperation, good 
neighborliness. 

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To that extent, even communal 
harmony in India will be 

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enhanced. 
And he made sincere efforts 

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towards this. 
I am underscoring this last 

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contribution because a lot of 
people see advantage as a as a 

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polarizing figure. 
But here is a person who amongst

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you see the you see the history 
of the last 75 years among the 

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few Indian leaders who have made
sincere, consistent efforts to 

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normalize relations with 
Pakistan. 

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Advani is one of them. 
How can you call him a 

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polarizing politician? 
As we know in the media, Advani 

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visited Pakistan and his remarks
about Jina caused a permanent 

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strain in his relations with the
RSS from which he could never 

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recover. 
So what happened exactly? 

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You are absolutely right. 
You know what actually happened 

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in Pakistan. 
As someone who accompanied him 

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and was an eyewitness, I can 
share with you that whatever 

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advantage is said about Jinnah 
at Jinnah's mausoleum in Karachi

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is absolutely irrefutable. 
In the visitor's book, he wrote 

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a few lines. 
Every single word that he wrote 

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with his own hand was carefully 
chosen. 

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And in that, he said that 
Sarojini Naidu described him as 

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an ambassador of Hindu Muslim 
unity. 

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This cannot be questioned. 
It's there. 

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Then he said that Jinnah's 
speech on August 11, 1947 at the

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beginning of the Constituent 
Assembly of Pakistan, the first 

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speech that he delivered, the 
Constituent Assembly of 

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Pakistan, he made a historic 
speech in which he said that now

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that Pakistan has been created, 
this should be a nation for all.

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No community, no religion should
dominate this nation. 

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So Advantages said that that 
speech is a classic example of 

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secularism and anyone who reads 
Jinnah's speech on that day will

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will find nothing objectionable 
in that speech. 

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But back at home, some people in
the BJP and the Sangh Parivar 

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and of course media they started
say oh Advani Ji calls Jina 

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secular and that became a big 
controversy. 

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It was also believed that he was
advised to do that and the 

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advisers were blamed. 
See, Advaniji is one of the most

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cerebral politicians India has 
produced. 

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So long as he was active in 
public life and politics, he was

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a lover of books. 
And I don't think there are many

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politicians who have read as 
many books and who could speak 

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as authoritatively and 
authentically on a variety of 

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subjects. 
So to say that he was wrongly 

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advised, he is actually a 
disservice to advantages 

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intellectual acumen. 
Now, in his autobiography he has

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said that whatever he had said 
with Karachi, he had faithfully 

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reproduced and he has not 
expressed any regret for what he

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said. 
He did not retract his words. 

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So what does it say? 
What does it show? 

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It shows that these were his own
thoughts. 

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But the point is that there is a
need for looking at our history 

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with all its complexity. 
It is indeed a fact that for a 

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long period of time Jinnah was a
he was in, he was in the 

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Congress party and even when he 
was in the Congress party in the

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initial years, he was also in 
the Muslim League and he tried 

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to bring about harmony between 
Hindus and Muslims there. 

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In the in the 30s onwards, he 
was a different man and he is 

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one of the villains of the 
partition. 

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But we should not see history in
just black and white terms. 

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We should have a nuanced 
understanding of history. 

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Let me point out one more thing.
When he praised Jinnah for his 

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speech on August 11, 1947, when 
he recalled the fact that he was

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an ambassador of Hindu Muslim 
unity, he was actually sending a

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message to the people of 
Pakistan that you have departed 

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and deviated from what your own 
founder had said. 

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Jinnah did not want an Islamic 
Pakistan, but Pakistan became 

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Islamized Pakistan marginalized 
Hindus and Sikhs. 

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So many instances of extremism 
and terrorism that targeted the 

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minorities. 
So Advani was actually telling 

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the Pakistanis that you have not
remained true to what your 

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founder had wanted you to. 
So instead of blaming advantage,

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people in India should have, 
should have praised him that 

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this is a contribution to bring 
India and Pakistan closer and 

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it's also an A contribution to 
harmonize relations between 

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Hindus and Muslims. 
Then why the relations trend 

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between Advani and RSS? 
If Advani wanted an harmonious 

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00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,640
relationship with Pakistan, was 
that a problem for RSS? 

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00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,240
RSS is not a monolith. 
Not everyone in the RSS thinks 

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00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,040
the same way. 
And there are also political 

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00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,960
considerations at different 
points in time that determine 

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00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,240
how the RSS and how some people 
in the BJP react. 

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00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:27,119
After all, when Vajpaiji 
undertook the bus yatra to 

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00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,520
Pakistan in 1999 and I was 
working in the Prime Minister's 

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00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:36,480
Office as an aide to Vajpaiji, I
accompanied him On that visit to

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00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:43,120
Pakistan, The RSS praised him. 
RSS encouraged him to go to 

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00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,480
Pakistan because there are 
people in the RSS at various top

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00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,240
levels. 
Even today they believe in good 

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00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,640
relations with Pakistan. 
But unfortunately in 2005, you 

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00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,960
see, we had lost the election in
2004 and there were voices 

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00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:07,080
within the BJP and the Sangh 
Pariwar that Vajpayji and Advani

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00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,760
Ji had had left Hinduism. 
And that was the political 

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00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:19,200
context in which hardliners took
advantage and sidelined 

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00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,800
advantage. 
I mean the relations and how 

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00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,280
Advani was deserted from the 
leadership of BJP in today's 

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00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,080
time. 
In your opinion, what led to 

246
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,040
this situation? 
See, you know in politics, when 

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00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:41,080
you win you are a hero. 
When you lose, all the blame 

248
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,280
comes on you. 
In 2004, the BJP lost the 

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00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:55,320
election in 199619981999. 
The BJP was on an upward curve 

250
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:03,560
and everybody praised Advantage 
and Atalji for taking the BJP to

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00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,480
the center stage. 
It was a marginal party. 

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00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:13,240
In 1984, we all know that the 
BJP had won only two seats in 

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00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,120
the Lok Sabha. 
Watch PG himself lost the 

254
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:19,160
election. 
This was after Indira Gandhi's 

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00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,680
assassination. 
But from two seats, watch PG, 

256
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,360
Advani G along with others, they
made the BJP, as I mentioned, 

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00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,760
the second poll of Indian 
political establishment. 

258
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,840
So he became a hero. 
But 2004, we lost the election. 

259
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,800
By that time Watch PG was was 
not very active. 

260
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,720
After 2004 defeat, you're not 
active in politics. 

261
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:50,600
So all the blame came on 
advantage. 

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00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,160
Once again, we lost the election
in 2009. 

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00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,200
It's not only with the with the 
BJP in every party, if you take 

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00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,280
the party to power, you are a 
hero. 

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00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,000
If you lose elections, you are a
weak leader. 

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00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:07,960
That is what has happened to 
advantage. 

267
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,480
But I'm sure. 
That those in the BJP, those in 

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00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,360
the Sangh Parivar and also those
who are outside the Sangh 

269
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,560
Parivar, when they look back at 
India's post independence 

270
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,040
history and when they take a 
holistic view, they will 

271
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,400
certainly have a high regard for
Advani. 

272
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,280
And I can tell you here in this 
context that in the opposition 

273
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,040
party, those who are outside the
BJP, they had great regard for 

274
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,680
him. 
Those who are criticizing the 

275
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,040
advantage, they should make the 
efforts to know history better 

276
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,280
the. 
Allegation is our current Prime 

277
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:52,080
Minister is not respecting 
advantage in the current 

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00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,400
politics. 
We have seen many visuals from 

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00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,080
different political party 
rallies to other events. 

280
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,200
See, I don't want to. 
I don't want to comment on that.

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00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,240
People are intelligent enough to
come to their own conclusions, 

282
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,160
but I would like to make one 
point very emphatically in this 

283
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:19,640
podcast and that is that today, 
when democracy in India is under

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00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,720
serious stress, there is a need 
to go back to our own history to

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00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,560
know how the BJP defended 
democracy. 

286
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,600
Sudhinder Kulkarni says the book
written by LK Advani titled A 

287
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,680
Prisoner Scrapbook, offers a 
good lesson on how people should

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00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,200
view democracy. 
He read out one paragraph from 

289
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,840
the book on what LK Advani said 
about how one can preserve 

290
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,080
democracy. 
He said Indira Gandhi has 

291
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:53,280
described the Emergency as a 
shock treatment, an objective 

292
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,600
totally alien to the purpose of 
Emergency, conceived by our 

293
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,360
Constitution makers, but a shock
it has no doubt been. 

294
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,080
It has shocked even skeptics 
into realizing the truth of 

295
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,400
Jayaprakash Narayan's 
prognostication. 

296
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,920
More sadly, however, it has 
shaken the faith of many in the 

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00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,200
future of Indian democracy. 
Then he says, and this is 

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00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,360
especially important, 
restoration of this faith in 

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00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:25,440
Indian democracy is the task to 
which every thinking Indian 

300
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,040
needs to address himself. 
How to do this is a matter which

301
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,960
each of us has to decide for 
himself, ourselves. 

302
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:40,760
But all of us can do one thing 
in common, shed fear and speak 

303
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,960
the truth as we see it. 
This in itself will be no mean 

304
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,080
contribution to the cause of 
democracy. 

305
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,200
This is what he wrote when he 
was in jail for 19 months 

306
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,920
between 75 and 77. 
They are important even now, 

307
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,520
because we know what is 
happening to our democracy. 150 

308
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,200
members of Parliament summarily 
suspended. 

309
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,400
Has it ever happened before? 
Look at the way governors are 

310
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,280
being misused. 
When Advanagi and Atalgi were in

311
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,840
the opposition, they strongly 
condemned misuse of the office 

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00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,240
of governor. 
Under Congress regimes, what is 

313
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,720
happening today? 
Governors have become governor 

314
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,800
generals after the emergency was
lifted, Advanagi told 

315
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,200
journalists. 
Because during the emergency, a 

316
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,000
lot of journalists and many 
editors and especially media 

317
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,160
owners, they completely 
surrendered to the emergency 

318
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,800
regime. 
So to them, Advanagi said, and 

319
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:54,520
these are his famous words, You 
were only asked to bend, but you

320
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,760
chose to crawl. 
You were only asked to bend, but

321
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,600
you chose to crawl. 
Aash kya hora hai, aash to 

322
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:09,080
Emergency declared there is no 
official censorship yet. 

323
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,680
People are not just crawling, 
they're prostrating. 

324
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,200
So that's why I'm saying that 
those in the BJP and those who 

325
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,240
are critics of the BJP should 
recall, make an effort to study 

326
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,720
advantages, contribution to 
defense of democracy. 

327
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,920
I'll go to the beginning of our 
discussion where you spoke about

328
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,400
advantage, wanted to bring other
ideologies or polls to the 

329
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,760
Indian politics. 
Now we are discussing Congress, 

330
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,120
Mukta Bharat Ek, Bharat Ek 
party, everything Ek on the 

331
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,120
political agenda. 
The politics aspired by Advani. 

332
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,120
Where has it reached in your 
opinion? 

333
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:03,240
I mentioned to you that right 
from the 70s onwards, Advani was

334
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,600
saying that Indian political 
establishment needs to be 

335
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,720
transformed from a unipolar 
system to a bipolar system and 

336
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,120
the domination, the monopoly 
control of the Congress party. 

337
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:23,600
Because any party that begins to
have monopoly control, it moves 

338
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,360
in the direction of 
dictatorship. 

339
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,360
It's no longer accountable to 
the people, it's no longer 

340
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,640
responsive. 
And that's why they said India 

341
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,080
should have a two party system 
or A2 poll system, Not two 

342
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:43,640
party, but two poll. 
Now after 2014, India is now 

343
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,000
again moving towards a unipolar.
But that one poll, that single 

344
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,480
poll is not the Congress but the
BJP. 

345
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,760
And there are people in the BJP 
today who says we should have a 

346
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,000
Congress? 
Mukta Bharat. 

347
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,480
Not just Congress, Mukta Bharat,
Opposition Mukta Bharat. 

348
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,440
We want a democracy. 
But in a democracy there should 

349
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,200
be no other party, only one 
party. 

350
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:12,760
Now this is a very dangerous 
trend and the thinking people of

351
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:18,840
India, democracy loving people 
of India, people who love the 

352
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,960
fact that we are a land of 
diversity, a land of freedom of 

353
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,560
thought, freedom of expression, 
Not just because of the 

354
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,800
Constitution, but for 5000 
years, Indian civilization has 

355
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,520
zealously protected this quality
of freedom, freedom of thought, 

356
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,400
freedom of expression. 
There has never been the 

357
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,320
persecution of people in India 
because of what they professed, 

358
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,720
the faith that they espoused or 
the ideas that they had. 

359
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,080
Everyone is free and everyone is
free today, also because of the 

360
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Constitution and therefore this 
freedom, this democracy, our 

361
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,280
democracy is, is full of 
loopholes, full of shortcomings.

362
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,680
And all these shortcomings need 
to be reformed. 

363
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,640
Change and our democracy needs 
to be reformed. 

364
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,480
But one core quality of our 
democracy, that is freedom of 

365
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,920
expression, freedom of thought, 
freedom of association. 

366
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,480
This must be defended. 
On the one hand, we are saying 

367
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,160
that India is the mother of 
democracy, but on the other 

368
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,360
hand, what's happening? 
So let's defend democracy. 

369
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,280
You spoke a lot about LK 
Advani's life and his times and 

370
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,000
his politics. 
Even a lot of that is not just 

371
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,960
reversed. 
It is celebrated. 

372
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,880
That reversal is celebrated 
itself. 

373
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,400
Like you spoke about his views 
on Pakistan, many would say that

374
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,000
it shows that it wasn't sort of 
outdated politics, or maybe it 

375
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,080
was a politics of that time, but
it didn't have the legs to last 

376
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,040
on. 
What would you say to that? 

377
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:10,320
I think pendulum has moved to 
some extreme today. 

378
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:16,280
But I am absolutely confident 
that this pendulum will again 

379
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,240
come back to the center. 
What Agawan Buddha has said 

380
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:28,320
Matyam mark the middle path. 
India has always progressed when

381
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,320
it has moved on the middle path,
not this extreme or that 

382
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,280
extreme. 
Of course, even the past 10 

383
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,440
years, a lot of good things have
happened. 

384
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,000
I'm not in the BJP now, but I 
can say that India has actually 

385
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,040
progressed a lot in many 
respects in the last 10 years 

386
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,840
and the government deserves 
credit for this. 

387
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,000
Prime Minister Modi deserves 
credit for this. 

388
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,440
At the same time, there are some
shortcomings, and we should not 

389
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,800
shy away from talking about 
these shortcomings. 

390
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,640
Today's episode was produced by 
Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. 

391
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,560
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392
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,040
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393
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394
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395
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