From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the
Times of India podcast. And so did he do it just to
become chief deputy CM again My take is no.
And that also the feedback that I'm getting from people and MLAs
are joined Mr. Ajit Pawar the the underlying theme is.
That Mister Ajit Pawar will be made the CM of Maharashtra
shortly. Mr. Shinde will either face
disqualification as a result of the Speaker's decision or that
he may be requested to resign. He may be accommodated in Delhi.
Whatever, there would be some kind of a reshuffle and BJP
central leadership has decided not to go into Lok Sabha
election under Mr. Shinde. But pay bigger game because too
much is at stake And I think they think that Ajit Pawar, if
it's given the leadership of the BJP in Maharashtra mid CGM, he
will deliver Maharashtra to BJP. Senior Congress leader
Prithviraj Chavan, who you just heard, believes that it's only a
matter of time that Ajit Pawar will become the chief minister
of the state of Maharashtra after his rebellion.
After a meet on Wednesday the 5th of July, it seems clear that
Ajit Pawar has the support of a majority of the party's MLAs in
Maharashtra. In today's episode, my colleague
Alka Dukkar is in conversation with Prithviraj Chawan about
what the split in the NCP means for broader opposition unity
around a year before the national and Maharashtra state
elections. Prithviraj Chawan is a senior
Congress leader and was Chief Minister of the state of
Maharashtra with Ajit Pawar as his deputy.
Alka started by asking Prithviraj Jawan about his own
experience of working with Ajit Pawar.
You have closely worked with Mr. Ajit Pawar in previous
government, You as the Chief Minister and he being Deputy
Chief Minister. I would like to understand some
insights of his personality other than what is written about
in media. What was your experience working
with Ajit Pawar? How would you describe him as a
as his? Personality.
He inherited the political power which was in the family at a
very early age. So in a way he was born with a
silver spoon in the mouth. As he the cliche goes.
He was made a minister at a very early age.
He contested in one Lok Sabha election also.
But he didn't feel comfortable there and made way for Sharad
Pawar to come back to Delhi. But he's been a minister.
In Maharashtra, for a very long time, he's handled many
portfolios. He is quite decisive more than
anything else. I think he is very hardworking,
very punctual, manages his time very effectively, which not many
politicians are able to do. And I think I will give him a A
plus for being extremely hardworking.
He's ruthless, he's decisive and he's blunt.
Sometimes hurts people but he's absolutely decisive and that is
a quality which has been missing from Maharashtra politics for
some time. But of course there are many
corruption scandals attached to his name.
I had to decide in few cases where we sort of had different
so opinion. Prithviraj Chavan says that soon
after he took over as chief minister of Maharashtra, he had
run a fall of the Pawar family. He told Alka that he had two
bureaucrats take over the running of the Maharashtra State
Cooperative Bank to prevent its collapse.
He said Ajit Pawar wasn't too happy about that since it meant
the removal of elected representatives from the bank's
board. And then came the irrigation
scandal that continues to haunt Ajit Pawar.
In 2012, Ajit Pawar resigned after facing allegations of
siphoning of funds meant for irrigation projects.
Prithviraj Chavan explains how he viewed Ajit Pawar's
resignation and his return, which he says indicates how the
NCP leader works a. Report came from Ajit Pawar's
department that over the last 10 years we are talking about 2010,
last 10 years since 2001. Maharashtra irrigation
department had spent 70,000 crores but the increase in
irrigation was just oh point 1% from 18% to 18.1%.
Now that was a shocking statistic given by Mr. Ajit
Pawar's planning department itself.
And so as a new Chief Minister, we had just come from Delhi.
Not only was I shocked but I wanted to see why this was
happening And with that intention I ordered the
irrigation department itself. To present a white paper to the
people of Maharashtra. Unfortunately, the meaning of
the white paper Shweta Patrika and Marathi was misunderstood.
In Maharashtra, it was constituted.
It was a inquiry against the happenings in irrigation
department. It was not.
But Ajit did not think it that way because he was running the
department for some time and we had very strange relationship.
I think after this irrigation order of the white paper he's.
Resigned from the ministry and he was away from the ministry
for about a month or so. At that time, the Mr. Sharad
Pawar made alternate elements, handed over the finance
portfolio to Mr. Jain party and the ministry was going on
happily as ever. Nothing else happened.
But he suddenly realized that without power people stopped
coming to him and he completely felt isolated and all that and
then he begged his uncle. To be reinducted in the cabinet,
and which happened after a period of about a month or month
and a half and all that we came back to the cabinet.
So point is, without power it will be difficult for him to
sustain himself on his intellectual ability or just his
hard work. Because then there's nothing to
dispense and his leadership has been built very carefully among
MLAs and all that by dispensing political favors, financial
favors. Doing projects for the people
out of turn, projects for them and which helps of course MLAs
to get elected. In the next state election,
after the resignation drama, the BJP swept to power and Devendra
Fadnavis became chief minister. Prithvira Chavan believes that
Ajit Pawar still holds a grudge against him and believes that if
the Congress and NCP had contested together in the 2014
elections, they might have returned to power.
Well, I I think he still holds touches against me because in
his private conversations or even the fact that he pulled
down my government in 2014. I'm sure that if you had faced
the 2014 election together as the alliance of NCP Congress, we
still would have emerged as the largest group and perhaps even
could have managed to form a government with help of
independence. Being ambitious politically,
people say that. What's wrong in it?
He was aspiring for chief ministership for long.
Shinde and Fadnavis, who are junior to him, got that post.
But Ajit Pawar was denied or was not given a chance to become a
chief minister. So what's wrong in having
political ambition? Would you call him power hungry
or politically ambitious person? Party splitting is not something
unheard of. Mr. Pawar himself was involved
in many splits. But this time there's also an
ideological angle to this split. When Mr. Pawar split from a
parent Congress party in 99, there was number ideological
difference, just a personal ambition.
But now with Mr. Modi coming to power in 2014, there's a blatant
horse trading. We saw elected government being
brought down. Congress MLA is being this the
way? Hijacked and taken this place we
had seen recently. Forget about the earlier
history, we have seen for recent in Karnataka, we have seen in
Madhya Pradesh, we have seen in Maharashtra in case of Shivsanna
and now in NCP. The NCP faction is now gone over
to BJP, a complete ideological opponent.
They have been opposing Ncp's ideology, the Hindu to ideology
for all their life, all their political life and suddenly
overnight. They become Bhakt Modi bugs
overnight and it was really a pathetic show when Mr. Ajit
Pawar and Mr. Bhujbal said that they had joined the BJP or they
going along with BJP because Mr. Modi's work over the last nine
years. It was laughable because if we
take out their videos, particularly Mr. Chagan
Bhujbal's and others, they were such bitter critics and
particularly Mr. Chagan Bhujbal who swore by Pune Shahu American
tradition. Now he's going in the lap of
Hindutva philosophy. He wants to build a Hindu
Rashtra. So going back to NCP and Sharad
Power's political structure, I would like to ask you that where
does this take Mr. Sharad power on National scenario?
Do you think that this will impact his quality or politics
on National? Level, no, no, I don't think it
will have any impact on the national.
Alliance that is being shaped up because it is a 17 party
alliance and I think there are many, many parties which are
larger than his party. But let us not forget that Mr.
Pawar is a very experienced leader by age, is perhaps the
senior most leader in that alliance and he would be like a
father figure in that alliance and always apply a soothing
touch to any any disputes that may arise when you sit together
and all that. So more than the numerical
strength of his party even before the split, it is his
personal presence, his personal rapport with the senior leaders
right from Kashmir to Tamil Nadu to Kerala and to Bengal.
And that will be critical. And that will remain because he
has vowed to remain in the National Opposition alliance
which is opposing BJP. He has also said that he'll be
in Bangalore when the next. Conclave with the opposition
leaders take place around 18th to 19th of next month.
So to that extent being one of the seventeen parties and
contributing about 3 or 4 Mp's to the whole part.
I've been few people going here and they won't make a difference
at all at the national level. But I would also like to comment
at state level. Is the state MV alliance, would
it become weaker? Yes, of course it will become
weaker to that extent. That about 30 odd MLAs who would
have supported us against Mr. Modi or would have been
vehemently opposing BJP candidates will now become their
candidates or indirectly support Mr. Modi's reelection process.
So to that extent, in those districts, particularly Pune
Nashik Ahmad Nagar, where Mr. Ajit Pawar has a personal clout,
yes, we will have to work hard, but then it will be Mr. Sharad
Pawar versus Ajit Pawar in those districts.
I understand that Mr. Sharad Pawar is starting his roadshow
or a campaign from Nashik district which is a key district
of Chagan Bhujbal and Mr. Raj Pawar's clout is there.
And so I think there would be some impact on the MBA alliance
here, but not a major impact I think because ultimately I
believe that like in the Shivarsana split, while the
Mla's went with Mr. Shinde, but the Shiva Senics are still.
Loyal to Mr. Udta attack and the same thing will happen here.
The MLAs may go for lure of power some more, may become
ministers and get some other plum posts.
But I think the people who are with Mr. Sharad power from 1999
when we launched NCP, that will be a different story altogether.
What about MVA seat sharing formula on the local levels and
in the state levels as well? Congress is going independent
for Mumbai. BMC polls How it will go forward
from this point? First, there is a Lok Sabha
election in May 2024. The Vidhan Sabha election is
slated to be in October 24. It could be pre polled anytime
the local body elections are. Overdue by 1 1/2 year.
So I think first of all we are focusing on the seat sharing
formula for Lok Sabha election. Now to reverse what happened in
2019 where BJP alliance got 42 seats out of 48 and their seat
sharing will happen. There are certain time honored
formulae and just contesting election for sake of contesting
and not winning is not important.
We have to defeat. BJP and the Shindhi alliance
people have started talking that with the addition of Ajit Pawar,
BJP may be emboldened to hold local body's election this year
itself. So be it.
I think seat sharing will happen.
The MVA will go together, fight together in the forthcoming Lok
Sabha election. Definitely local body's
election. We may have a discussion that we
may have a pre poll alliance or post poll alliance will depend
on situation. Being a chief minister, how do
you look at voters anger about the political developments?
They feel that they have voted, particularly based on ideology,
to one party, but they are taken for granted and on a ride.
People who vote for elections are very angry when the person
that they voted for the party that they voted for.
The elected MLA or MP switches the party and join the
completely different ideology and ditches the electorate.
You know, it is like a, you know, treachery with the
electorate. Perhaps the the Mla's who get
elected in the lure of getting an office or some ministership
do not consider that factor. But I have seen first hand what
happened in Karnataka. Exactly same situation.
Elected government has blocked on through horse trading.
Huge deals were made. But look at the public reaction
in the recent Karnataka election.
BJP has trounced, senior leaders.
Lost. I think people cannot be taken
for granted. People have a mind of their own.
People are very angry when somebody deceives them like
this. I think BJP will realize the
price of this unholy alliance here.
But Congress people are saying that next number will come of
Maharashtra Congress and people were talking about few leaders
that they will join hands with BJP.
Do you think that Congress will stay strong in this situation?
Well, I think Congress will stay strong because Congress is in
the winning trail after Karnataka if anybody does.
The hope that thought even that he may switch parties perhaps is
not there anymore. But yes, attempts are being made
to weed away Congress leaders also.
But I'm absolutely sure that causing a 2/3 split in the
Congress party in Maharashtra would be impossible.
But that doesn't. Stop.
The possibility of individual members would put under extreme
pressure, may have to resign and they may take a different course
in Lok Sabha election or future single election.
So I wont rule out individual odd resignations here and there.
What BJP is basically trying is at one point on national level
there were parties trying to fight anti Congress.
Do you think that BJP is trying some kind of formula to keep
Congress away and to get all other?
Parties This election is about keeping Mr. Modi away.
OK? It's not about keeping Congress
away because Congress is not a major force anymore, as it was
earlier. It is about defeating Mr. Modi.
It is about saving democracy in 2024.
So all opposition parties, whether small regional parties
or larger regional parties, they realize that singly they will
not be able to defeat BJP. If you look at the arithmetic of
last two Lok Sabha elections, BJP got 31% votes in 2014.
Thirty 7% vote in 2019 after Balakot.
So let's assume that BJP still has a popular support of about
35% votes. That means 65%. 60 to 65% people
voted to defeat Mr. Modi, but they voted for different
parties. This division of vote of the
opposition has to be avoided and that's where the opposition
parties are come together. They met in Patna, now they're
going to meet in Bangalore. This is a formula of trying to
avoid splitting a vote and trying to put one opposition
candidate against 1B JP candidate.
If that happens, Mr. Modi will be defeated.
So I think the JP formula needs to be applied, which is the
broad alliance seat sharing sent by state and wait for the
result. When Mr. Modi is defeated, the
opposition forces emerged as the majority party.
Then they can sit down together and decide who will lead the
government after that. So if you try to do that, if you
try to name any person projective is, I know BJP will
tease. Hamari pass Modi hai, aapke
paskone hai. I think opposition party should
not fall into that trap. Of course Congress party will
have to take a leading role because even today Congress
party has a 19% popular vote share.
The next vote share is of trimal Congress about 4%.
Then other parties are to 1/2 percent.
So I think Congress party will have to be.
Play a major role leaders like Mr. Nitish Kumar, Mamtaji,
Sharad Pawaji. We like to play a role of
patching up differences, if any. They arise when we sit down into
detailed integrity. Today's episode was produced by
Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people,
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