1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:19,770 Times of India podcast. And so did he do it just to 3 00:00:19,770 --> 00:00:23,250 become chief deputy CM again My take is no. 4 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:27,890 And that also the feedback that I'm getting from people and MLAs 5 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:31,970 are joined Mr. Ajit Pawar the the underlying theme is. 6 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:35,700 That Mister Ajit Pawar will be made the CM of Maharashtra 7 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:39,220 shortly. Mr. Shinde will either face 8 00:00:40,420 --> 00:00:46,820 disqualification as a result of the Speaker's decision or that 9 00:00:46,820 --> 00:00:50,340 he may be requested to resign. He may be accommodated in Delhi. 10 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:55,780 Whatever, there would be some kind of a reshuffle and BJP 11 00:00:55,780 --> 00:00:59,580 central leadership has decided not to go into Lok Sabha 12 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:04,569 election under Mr. Shinde. But pay bigger game because too 13 00:01:04,569 --> 00:01:09,250 much is at stake And I think they think that Ajit Pawar, if 14 00:01:09,250 --> 00:01:13,490 it's given the leadership of the BJP in Maharashtra mid CGM, he 15 00:01:13,490 --> 00:01:17,850 will deliver Maharashtra to BJP. Senior Congress leader 16 00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:21,090 Prithviraj Chavan, who you just heard, believes that it's only a 17 00:01:21,090 --> 00:01:24,290 matter of time that Ajit Pawar will become the chief minister 18 00:01:24,290 --> 00:01:26,850 of the state of Maharashtra after his rebellion. 19 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,000 After a meet on Wednesday the 5th of July, it seems clear that 20 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,760 Ajit Pawar has the support of a majority of the party's MLAs in 21 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,400 Maharashtra. In today's episode, my colleague 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,840 Alka Dukkar is in conversation with Prithviraj Chawan about 23 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,000 what the split in the NCP means for broader opposition unity 24 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,000 around a year before the national and Maharashtra state 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,960 elections. Prithviraj Chawan is a senior 26 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,320 Congress leader and was Chief Minister of the state of 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,840 Maharashtra with Ajit Pawar as his deputy. 28 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:58,150 Alka started by asking Prithviraj Jawan about his own 29 00:01:58,150 --> 00:01:59,990 experience of working with Ajit Pawar. 30 00:02:01,070 --> 00:02:04,950 You have closely worked with Mr. Ajit Pawar in previous 31 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:08,470 government, You as the Chief Minister and he being Deputy 32 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:12,430 Chief Minister. I would like to understand some 33 00:02:12,430 --> 00:02:17,910 insights of his personality other than what is written about 34 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:20,430 in media. What was your experience working 35 00:02:20,430 --> 00:02:24,470 with Ajit Pawar? How would you describe him as a 36 00:02:24,870 --> 00:02:25,870 as his? Personality. 37 00:02:27,110 --> 00:02:31,670 He inherited the political power which was in the family at a 38 00:02:31,670 --> 00:02:34,790 very early age. So in a way he was born with a 39 00:02:34,790 --> 00:02:38,150 silver spoon in the mouth. As he the cliche goes. 40 00:02:38,710 --> 00:02:41,470 He was made a minister at a very early age. 41 00:02:41,510 --> 00:02:44,310 He contested in one Lok Sabha election also. 42 00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:49,790 But he didn't feel comfortable there and made way for Sharad 43 00:02:49,790 --> 00:02:53,190 Pawar to come back to Delhi. But he's been a minister. 44 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,720 In Maharashtra, for a very long time, he's handled many 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,520 portfolios. He is quite decisive more than 46 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,240 anything else. I think he is very hardworking, 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,280 very punctual, manages his time very effectively, which not many 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,040 politicians are able to do. And I think I will give him a A 49 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,960 plus for being extremely hardworking. 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,280 He's ruthless, he's decisive and he's blunt. 51 00:03:23,750 --> 00:03:30,390 Sometimes hurts people but he's absolutely decisive and that is 52 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:33,550 a quality which has been missing from Maharashtra politics for 53 00:03:33,550 --> 00:03:36,910 some time. But of course there are many 54 00:03:36,910 --> 00:03:39,190 corruption scandals attached to his name. 55 00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:46,990 I had to decide in few cases where we sort of had different 56 00:03:46,990 --> 00:03:49,940 so opinion. Prithviraj Chavan says that soon 57 00:03:49,940 --> 00:03:52,860 after he took over as chief minister of Maharashtra, he had 58 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:56,500 run a fall of the Pawar family. He told Alka that he had two 59 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:59,140 bureaucrats take over the running of the Maharashtra State 60 00:03:59,140 --> 00:04:01,500 Cooperative Bank to prevent its collapse. 61 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:05,140 He said Ajit Pawar wasn't too happy about that since it meant 62 00:04:05,140 --> 00:04:07,940 the removal of elected representatives from the bank's 63 00:04:07,940 --> 00:04:10,060 board. And then came the irrigation 64 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:12,580 scandal that continues to haunt Ajit Pawar. 65 00:04:13,090 --> 00:04:16,649 In 2012, Ajit Pawar resigned after facing allegations of 66 00:04:16,649 --> 00:04:19,450 siphoning of funds meant for irrigation projects. 67 00:04:19,930 --> 00:04:23,050 Prithviraj Chavan explains how he viewed Ajit Pawar's 68 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:27,090 resignation and his return, which he says indicates how the 69 00:04:27,090 --> 00:04:31,450 NCP leader works a. Report came from Ajit Pawar's 70 00:04:31,450 --> 00:04:37,290 department that over the last 10 years we are talking about 2010, 71 00:04:38,490 --> 00:04:42,040 last 10 years since 2001. Maharashtra irrigation 72 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,080 department had spent 70,000 crores but the increase in 73 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,120 irrigation was just oh point 1% from 18% to 18.1%. 74 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,560 Now that was a shocking statistic given by Mr. Ajit 75 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,160 Pawar's planning department itself. 76 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,320 And so as a new Chief Minister, we had just come from Delhi. 77 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,840 Not only was I shocked but I wanted to see why this was 78 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,640 happening And with that intention I ordered the 79 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,990 irrigation department itself. To present a white paper to the 80 00:05:11,990 --> 00:05:14,830 people of Maharashtra. Unfortunately, the meaning of 81 00:05:14,830 --> 00:05:18,350 the white paper Shweta Patrika and Marathi was misunderstood. 82 00:05:18,350 --> 00:05:20,550 In Maharashtra, it was constituted. 83 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:25,750 It was a inquiry against the happenings in irrigation 84 00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:26,870 department. It was not. 85 00:05:27,190 --> 00:05:31,110 But Ajit did not think it that way because he was running the 86 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:35,270 department for some time and we had very strange relationship. 87 00:05:35,270 --> 00:05:39,870 I think after this irrigation order of the white paper he's. 88 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:43,820 Resigned from the ministry and he was away from the ministry 89 00:05:43,820 --> 00:05:49,300 for about a month or so. At that time, the Mr. Sharad 90 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:52,340 Pawar made alternate elements, handed over the finance 91 00:05:52,340 --> 00:05:56,180 portfolio to Mr. Jain party and the ministry was going on 92 00:05:56,180 --> 00:05:58,900 happily as ever. Nothing else happened. 93 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:03,940 But he suddenly realized that without power people stopped 94 00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:07,380 coming to him and he completely felt isolated and all that and 95 00:06:07,380 --> 00:06:11,570 then he begged his uncle. To be reinducted in the cabinet, 96 00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:15,170 and which happened after a period of about a month or month 97 00:06:15,170 --> 00:06:17,130 and a half and all that we came back to the cabinet. 98 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:21,890 So point is, without power it will be difficult for him to 99 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:25,850 sustain himself on his intellectual ability or just his 100 00:06:25,850 --> 00:06:27,330 hard work. Because then there's nothing to 101 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:32,690 dispense and his leadership has been built very carefully among 102 00:06:32,690 --> 00:06:36,650 MLAs and all that by dispensing political favors, financial 103 00:06:36,650 --> 00:06:40,040 favors. Doing projects for the people 104 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,720 out of turn, projects for them and which helps of course MLAs 105 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,880 to get elected. In the next state election, 106 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,840 after the resignation drama, the BJP swept to power and Devendra 107 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,280 Fadnavis became chief minister. Prithvira Chavan believes that 108 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,040 Ajit Pawar still holds a grudge against him and believes that if 109 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,280 the Congress and NCP had contested together in the 2014 110 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:03,560 elections, they might have returned to power. 111 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:08,810 Well, I I think he still holds touches against me because in 112 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:13,050 his private conversations or even the fact that he pulled 113 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:18,050 down my government in 2014. I'm sure that if you had faced 114 00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:23,250 the 2014 election together as the alliance of NCP Congress, we 115 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:26,650 still would have emerged as the largest group and perhaps even 116 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:28,850 could have managed to form a government with help of 117 00:07:28,850 --> 00:07:32,880 independence. Being ambitious politically, 118 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,120 people say that. What's wrong in it? 119 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,200 He was aspiring for chief ministership for long. 120 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,520 Shinde and Fadnavis, who are junior to him, got that post. 121 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,160 But Ajit Pawar was denied or was not given a chance to become a 122 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,800 chief minister. So what's wrong in having 123 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,160 political ambition? Would you call him power hungry 124 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,140 or politically ambitious person? Party splitting is not something 125 00:08:00,140 --> 00:08:03,500 unheard of. Mr. Pawar himself was involved 126 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:06,380 in many splits. But this time there's also an 127 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:10,580 ideological angle to this split. When Mr. Pawar split from a 128 00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:13,740 parent Congress party in 99, there was number ideological 129 00:08:13,780 --> 00:08:15,740 difference, just a personal ambition. 130 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,900 But now with Mr. Modi coming to power in 2014, there's a blatant 131 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,500 horse trading. We saw elected government being 132 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:27,060 brought down. Congress MLA is being this the 133 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:30,950 way? Hijacked and taken this place we 134 00:08:30,950 --> 00:08:34,150 had seen recently. Forget about the earlier 135 00:08:34,150 --> 00:08:37,429 history, we have seen for recent in Karnataka, we have seen in 136 00:08:37,789 --> 00:08:41,309 Madhya Pradesh, we have seen in Maharashtra in case of Shivsanna 137 00:08:41,309 --> 00:08:45,230 and now in NCP. The NCP faction is now gone over 138 00:08:45,230 --> 00:08:49,110 to BJP, a complete ideological opponent. 139 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:53,830 They have been opposing Ncp's ideology, the Hindu to ideology 140 00:08:54,030 --> 00:08:56,870 for all their life, all their political life and suddenly 141 00:08:56,870 --> 00:09:00,190 overnight. They become Bhakt Modi bugs 142 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:04,310 overnight and it was really a pathetic show when Mr. Ajit 143 00:09:04,310 --> 00:09:07,710 Pawar and Mr. Bhujbal said that they had joined the BJP or they 144 00:09:07,990 --> 00:09:12,110 going along with BJP because Mr. Modi's work over the last nine 145 00:09:12,110 --> 00:09:14,190 years. It was laughable because if we 146 00:09:14,190 --> 00:09:16,750 take out their videos, particularly Mr. Chagan 147 00:09:16,750 --> 00:09:19,590 Bhujbal's and others, they were such bitter critics and 148 00:09:20,150 --> 00:09:24,310 particularly Mr. Chagan Bhujbal who swore by Pune Shahu American 149 00:09:24,310 --> 00:09:27,550 tradition. Now he's going in the lap of 150 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:30,390 Hindutva philosophy. He wants to build a Hindu 151 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:35,110 Rashtra. So going back to NCP and Sharad 152 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:40,030 Power's political structure, I would like to ask you that where 153 00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:43,430 does this take Mr. Sharad power on National scenario? 154 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:49,430 Do you think that this will impact his quality or politics 155 00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:52,830 on National? Level, no, no, I don't think it 156 00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:54,670 will have any impact on the national. 157 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,280 Alliance that is being shaped up because it is a 17 party 158 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,040 alliance and I think there are many, many parties which are 159 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,000 larger than his party. But let us not forget that Mr. 160 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,840 Pawar is a very experienced leader by age, is perhaps the 161 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,480 senior most leader in that alliance and he would be like a 162 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,320 father figure in that alliance and always apply a soothing 163 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,120 touch to any any disputes that may arise when you sit together 164 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,410 and all that. So more than the numerical 165 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:29,130 strength of his party even before the split, it is his 166 00:10:29,130 --> 00:10:32,850 personal presence, his personal rapport with the senior leaders 167 00:10:33,170 --> 00:10:38,810 right from Kashmir to Tamil Nadu to Kerala and to Bengal. 168 00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:41,730 And that will be critical. And that will remain because he 169 00:10:41,730 --> 00:10:46,410 has vowed to remain in the National Opposition alliance 170 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:49,530 which is opposing BJP. He has also said that he'll be 171 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:52,830 in Bangalore when the next. Conclave with the opposition 172 00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:56,070 leaders take place around 18th to 19th of next month. 173 00:10:56,670 --> 00:11:01,150 So to that extent being one of the seventeen parties and 174 00:11:01,150 --> 00:11:05,670 contributing about 3 or 4 Mp's to the whole part. 175 00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:09,110 I've been few people going here and they won't make a difference 176 00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:12,350 at all at the national level. But I would also like to comment 177 00:11:12,350 --> 00:11:17,030 at state level. Is the state MV alliance, would 178 00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:19,230 it become weaker? Yes, of course it will become 179 00:11:19,230 --> 00:11:23,710 weaker to that extent. That about 30 odd MLAs who would 180 00:11:23,710 --> 00:11:27,310 have supported us against Mr. Modi or would have been 181 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:30,470 vehemently opposing BJP candidates will now become their 182 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:36,630 candidates or indirectly support Mr. Modi's reelection process. 183 00:11:36,950 --> 00:11:40,270 So to that extent, in those districts, particularly Pune 184 00:11:40,270 --> 00:11:44,590 Nashik Ahmad Nagar, where Mr. Ajit Pawar has a personal clout, 185 00:11:44,950 --> 00:11:49,140 yes, we will have to work hard, but then it will be Mr. Sharad 186 00:11:49,140 --> 00:11:51,180 Pawar versus Ajit Pawar in those districts. 187 00:11:51,620 --> 00:11:55,180 I understand that Mr. Sharad Pawar is starting his roadshow 188 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:58,420 or a campaign from Nashik district which is a key district 189 00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:02,540 of Chagan Bhujbal and Mr. Raj Pawar's clout is there. 190 00:12:03,060 --> 00:12:07,060 And so I think there would be some impact on the MBA alliance 191 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:10,980 here, but not a major impact I think because ultimately I 192 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:14,300 believe that like in the Shivarsana split, while the 193 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:17,420 Mla's went with Mr. Shinde, but the Shiva Senics are still. 194 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,840 Loyal to Mr. Udta attack and the same thing will happen here. 195 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,960 The MLAs may go for lure of power some more, may become 196 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,920 ministers and get some other plum posts. 197 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,200 But I think the people who are with Mr. Sharad power from 1999 198 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,040 when we launched NCP, that will be a different story altogether. 199 00:12:38,270 --> 00:12:42,790 What about MVA seat sharing formula on the local levels and 200 00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:47,710 in the state levels as well? Congress is going independent 201 00:12:47,710 --> 00:12:51,990 for Mumbai. BMC polls How it will go forward 202 00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:56,070 from this point? First, there is a Lok Sabha 203 00:12:56,070 --> 00:13:00,630 election in May 2024. The Vidhan Sabha election is 204 00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:04,030 slated to be in October 24. It could be pre polled anytime 205 00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:09,260 the local body elections are. Overdue by 1 1/2 year. 206 00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:13,260 So I think first of all we are focusing on the seat sharing 207 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:17,660 formula for Lok Sabha election. Now to reverse what happened in 208 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:24,100 2019 where BJP alliance got 42 seats out of 48 and their seat 209 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:27,140 sharing will happen. There are certain time honored 210 00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:31,460 formulae and just contesting election for sake of contesting 211 00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:33,060 and not winning is not important. 212 00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:36,170 We have to defeat. BJP and the Shindhi alliance 213 00:13:36,490 --> 00:13:40,530 people have started talking that with the addition of Ajit Pawar, 214 00:13:40,890 --> 00:13:45,450 BJP may be emboldened to hold local body's election this year 215 00:13:45,450 --> 00:13:46,810 itself. So be it. 216 00:13:47,290 --> 00:13:49,010 I think seat sharing will happen. 217 00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:54,810 The MVA will go together, fight together in the forthcoming Lok 218 00:13:54,810 --> 00:13:56,930 Sabha election. Definitely local body's 219 00:13:56,930 --> 00:13:59,050 election. We may have a discussion that we 220 00:13:59,050 --> 00:14:01,970 may have a pre poll alliance or post poll alliance will depend 221 00:14:01,970 --> 00:14:05,180 on situation. Being a chief minister, how do 222 00:14:05,180 --> 00:14:09,140 you look at voters anger about the political developments? 223 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:13,660 They feel that they have voted, particularly based on ideology, 224 00:14:13,660 --> 00:14:18,140 to one party, but they are taken for granted and on a ride. 225 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:25,220 People who vote for elections are very angry when the person 226 00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:27,860 that they voted for the party that they voted for. 227 00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:32,500 The elected MLA or MP switches the party and join the 228 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:38,500 completely different ideology and ditches the electorate. 229 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:43,180 You know, it is like a, you know, treachery with the 230 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:46,500 electorate. Perhaps the the Mla's who get 231 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:50,300 elected in the lure of getting an office or some ministership 232 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:54,500 do not consider that factor. But I have seen first hand what 233 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:57,580 happened in Karnataka. Exactly same situation. 234 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,780 Elected government has blocked on through horse trading. 235 00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:06,900 Huge deals were made. But look at the public reaction 236 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:09,460 in the recent Karnataka election. 237 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:12,860 BJP has trounced, senior leaders. 238 00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:15,940 Lost. I think people cannot be taken 239 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:19,540 for granted. People have a mind of their own. 240 00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:24,340 People are very angry when somebody deceives them like 241 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:27,980 this. I think BJP will realize the 242 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:32,380 price of this unholy alliance here. 243 00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:37,100 But Congress people are saying that next number will come of 244 00:15:37,460 --> 00:15:41,220 Maharashtra Congress and people were talking about few leaders 245 00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:43,220 that they will join hands with BJP. 246 00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:47,060 Do you think that Congress will stay strong in this situation? 247 00:15:48,690 --> 00:15:51,370 Well, I think Congress will stay strong because Congress is in 248 00:15:51,370 --> 00:15:55,170 the winning trail after Karnataka if anybody does. 249 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:59,770 The hope that thought even that he may switch parties perhaps is 250 00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:03,130 not there anymore. But yes, attempts are being made 251 00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:05,170 to weed away Congress leaders also. 252 00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:10,530 But I'm absolutely sure that causing a 2/3 split in the 253 00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:12,730 Congress party in Maharashtra would be impossible. 254 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:17,040 But that doesn't. Stop. 255 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,480 The possibility of individual members would put under extreme 256 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,880 pressure, may have to resign and they may take a different course 257 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,960 in Lok Sabha election or future single election. 258 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,280 So I wont rule out individual odd resignations here and there. 259 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:38,020 What BJP is basically trying is at one point on national level 260 00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:41,100 there were parties trying to fight anti Congress. 261 00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:45,100 Do you think that BJP is trying some kind of formula to keep 262 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,100 Congress away and to get all other? 263 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:49,740 Parties This election is about keeping Mr. Modi away. 264 00:16:50,140 --> 00:16:51,780 OK? It's not about keeping Congress 265 00:16:51,780 --> 00:16:54,780 away because Congress is not a major force anymore, as it was 266 00:16:54,780 --> 00:16:58,460 earlier. It is about defeating Mr. Modi. 267 00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:02,100 It is about saving democracy in 2024. 268 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,599 So all opposition parties, whether small regional parties 269 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:11,440 or larger regional parties, they realize that singly they will 270 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,200 not be able to defeat BJP. If you look at the arithmetic of 271 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,200 last two Lok Sabha elections, BJP got 31% votes in 2014. 272 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,240 Thirty 7% vote in 2019 after Balakot. 273 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,400 So let's assume that BJP still has a popular support of about 274 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,590 35% votes. That means 65%. 60 to 65% people 275 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:36,710 voted to defeat Mr. Modi, but they voted for different 276 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:39,390 parties. This division of vote of the 277 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:42,710 opposition has to be avoided and that's where the opposition 278 00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:45,830 parties are come together. They met in Patna, now they're 279 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:50,550 going to meet in Bangalore. This is a formula of trying to 280 00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:55,350 avoid splitting a vote and trying to put one opposition 281 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:57,670 candidate against 1B JP candidate. 282 00:17:57,870 --> 00:18:00,350 If that happens, Mr. Modi will be defeated. 283 00:18:00,990 --> 00:18:04,390 So I think the JP formula needs to be applied, which is the 284 00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:09,070 broad alliance seat sharing sent by state and wait for the 285 00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:11,950 result. When Mr. Modi is defeated, the 286 00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:15,070 opposition forces emerged as the majority party. 287 00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:19,030 Then they can sit down together and decide who will lead the 288 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:23,710 government after that. So if you try to do that, if you 289 00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:28,150 try to name any person projective is, I know BJP will 290 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:30,850 tease. Hamari pass Modi hai, aapke 291 00:18:30,850 --> 00:18:33,570 paskone hai. I think opposition party should 292 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:37,290 not fall into that trap. Of course Congress party will 293 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:40,610 have to take a leading role because even today Congress 294 00:18:40,610 --> 00:18:43,250 party has a 19% popular vote share. 295 00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:47,410 The next vote share is of trimal Congress about 4%. 296 00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:51,130 Then other parties are to 1/2 percent. 297 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:53,050 So I think Congress party will have to be. 298 00:18:54,370 --> 00:18:57,890 Play a major role leaders like Mr. Nitish Kumar, Mamtaji, 299 00:18:57,890 --> 00:19:00,850 Sharad Pawaji. We like to play a role of 300 00:19:01,450 --> 00:19:05,690 patching up differences, if any. They arise when we sit down into 301 00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:15,090 detailed integrity. Today's episode was produced by 302 00:19:15,090 --> 00:19:19,010 Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 303 00:19:19,050 --> 00:19:21,850 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 304 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,600 We are available on TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts 305 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,600 and all other platforms of your choice. 306 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,120 For any news tips, e-mail us at TOI Podcast at Timesinternet in.