1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:16,560 Times of India podcast. India became independent on the 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,640 15th of August 1947, but became a sovereign Democratic Republic 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,080 only on the 26th of January 1950. 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880 It's a good time to look back at how the nation has changed since 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,080 its independence and becoming a Republic, so be bringing back 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,400 this episode, which we've done earlier and remains relevant on 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:38,560 a 75th Republic Day. Every Independence Day, we not 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,080 only celebrate the day, but also try to remember what it means to 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,240 be an independent nation. With every passing year, we also 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,200 have fewer people who've seen India from the time it became 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,760 independent to the present day. There are things that all of us 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,800 know as a sort of collective memory, like that video of 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,320 crowds gathered in Delhi for the flag hoisting, or that iconic 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,760 speech. Long years ago we made a trick 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:10,040 with destiny, and now the time comes when we shall redeem our 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:16,800 pledge, not only or in full measure, but very substantially. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,280 But there are a lot of things that we don't know of as well. 19 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,560 This Independence Day, my colleagues in Mumbai, Bhavika 20 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,760 Jain and Lata Mishra, decided to speak with three people who've 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,800 been around since India became independent. 22 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,960 They spoke with them about their memories of India on the day it 23 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:36,520 gained independence and what that time was like. 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,480 They spoke about how they view India at 76, which is younger 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,400 than they are presently. They also evaluated how the 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,880 country has aged so far and what they hope for it in the coming 27 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,560 years. Julio Ribero, who spoke with 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,760 Bhavika Jain, is best known as the tough police officer who 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,920 helped end terrorism in Punjab and was the Commissioner of 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,560 Police in Mumbai. But on the 15th of August in 31 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,680 1947, he was a teenager in a Mumbai college. 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,280 He describes what the day was like for him. 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,880 I was 18 years old. I was studying in the final year 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:18,200 of my graduate of my bachelor's course in commerce. 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:23,680 I was in the Sydenham College and my younger brother, he was 36 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,880 in the JJ School of Art. So we both went in a bus, you 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:35,280 know, BST bus all over S Bombay and there was a lot of, you 38 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,720 know, people, lots of people on the roads and we were very 39 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,600 impressed, especially around BT Station. 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,280 It was extremely interesting. People were very in a joyous 41 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:54,240 mood, so I remember that. Rahul Singh is an author and 42 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,080 form editor who has edited publications like The Reader's 43 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,800 Digest and The Indian Express. He's also the son of author and 44 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,840 editor Khushwan Singh. Born in 1940, Rahul Singh was a 45 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,520 resident of Lahore when it became clear that India was 46 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,000 going to get independence. He tells Bhavika Jain why he 47 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,120 better remembers his experience of the days in the run up to 48 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:20,480 August 15. In 1947 I was only 7 years old 49 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:29,880 and I think the day that India got its independence, Partition 50 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,400 was taking place at that time. And I think my father by then 51 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:44,080 had become a diplomat and had moved to London. 52 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,120 So I can't quite remember that particular day, but I can tell 53 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,800 you a little bit. When we moved from Lahore, the 54 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:00,200 whole family was based in Lahore in 1947, beginning of 1947. 55 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,360 And that is when the riots broke out. 56 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:14,840 My grandfather, whose name was so Sir Sobha Singh, he was, he 57 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,560 had moved to Delhi by then. He had been a contractor, a 58 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:27,200 builder in what became Pakistan. But what was undivided India 59 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,960 then in a place called Hadali, which was a village in what is 60 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,120 now Pakistan? And in 1947, when the riots 61 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:44,760 broke out, I still vividly remember that we used to go out 62 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,880 on the roof of the building where we were living. 63 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,040 We were living in a in a road called Lawrence Rd. 64 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,040 In Lahore. I remember we used to see from 65 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,680 the roof that there was trouble there. 66 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,240 And my father even said there were some people being killed 67 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,080 during those riots. So because there was trouble in 68 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:14,000 Lahore, my father said we better, He sent us all of the 69 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,160 family. I had a small sister who was 70 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,520 just two years old and that was my mother. 71 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,840 And so he bundled us up in a car and said go to Delhi and stay 72 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:30,560 with your grandfather in Delhi. These riots will subside in a 73 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,480 short while and then you can come back again. 74 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,600 Of course we never came back because the riots get worse and 75 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,520 worse and then Partition took place. 76 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,760 Doctor Ustam Sunawala is perhaps Mumbai's oldest gynecologist and 77 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,960 obstetrician and has worked on population control for a lot of 78 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,920 his life. He helped in the creation of 79 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,000 India's abortion law and pushed for the use of contraception 80 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,600 devices for women so that they could control how many children 81 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,080 they had. Given the nature of his work for 82 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,720 over 50 years of his life, it's only a surprise how he described 83 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,200 the event of independence to Lata Mishra. 84 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,840 The Independence Day celebration. 85 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,400 Being an obstetrician, I would compare it like the birth of a 86 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,760 baby. Then the baby is born, the whole 87 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,400 family rejoices, all visitors come with gifts and all. 88 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:34,120 So it was like the birth of our country and everybody was happy, 89 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,560 everybody was rejoicing. But as Rahul Singh described it, 90 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,680 it was also a time of violence. Doctor Sunawala, who was almost 91 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,720 a teen, remembers vividly how he and his parents escaped a mob 92 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:48,280 thanks to a stroke. Of luck. 93 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,120 My father used to just drive the car on Sundays. 94 00:06:53,320 --> 00:07:00,040 Our driver was off and my mum myself, him went for a movie 95 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:06,800 show to Paradise Cinema at mine. After the film got over on the 96 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,680 screen, a notice came here. There are riots near Shivaji 97 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:17,320 Park. So our clients or whatever I 98 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,760 want to be careful when you those who have to go to Shivaji 99 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Park at the time God Saved the King was always plain. 100 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,960 We stood up and then as we got out of the thin theatre, we saw 101 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,840 three other Parsi ladies from the same colony. 102 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,000 The other Parsi colony. So naturally we offered them 103 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,920 lifts. So my dad was driving, My mother 104 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,680 and me were sitting tightly. It was an old Opal car and the 105 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,320 three other ladies were accommodated at the back. 106 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,840 It was all quiet. There were a lot of policemen in 107 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,480 Tuali Park, Not a soul to be seen, completely deserted. 108 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,560 So we were quite happy. We took a left turn to come to 109 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,960 till the bridge. As we took the left turn, a mob 110 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:17,160 of maybe hundred 200 people from the side lanes suddenly 111 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,120 appeared. It was really a frightening 112 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,000 shock to see people with sticks and stones in their hand coming 113 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,320 Sunday out and they stopped the car. 114 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,960 At that time the old cars had they were radiator and the cap 115 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,760 on top. So they opened the front cap, 116 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,559 which was metallic and started hitting the front glass to break 117 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,480 it and the side glasses were up and we had locked ourselves in. 118 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,440 They knocked on those glasses but thank God that old German 119 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,240 Opal car could take it Sunday we could hear somebody who had 120 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:59,160 opened the patrol cap and said Matislao Matislao and that would 121 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,320 have been disaster because if they had thrown the matches in 122 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:09,440 the patrol tank it would be like a bomb to our good luck. 123 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,880 I seek gentlemen. I can vividly see now quite tall 124 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,720 hefty lean is crossed the car window and saw my dad. 125 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,000 He just put his hands up. Chodo Chodo Kuching. 126 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,440 Karo, Doctor Shah, Doctor Shaber. 127 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:31,120 My father was a physician at Nile Hospital and he happened to 128 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,120 be one of his patients. How luck works. 129 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,000 And the car, then we were trying to start the engine and the 130 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,360 engine wouldn't start. So it was. 131 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,840 Great to watch the crowd wishing the cartoon. 132 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,840 Give us a start and as soon as the push on given the engine 133 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,480 started and we got onto the leg bridge and came back to pass the 134 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,160 colony safely home with the car a little bit damaged by the 135 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,760 sticks that they were banging and all and it was an experience 136 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,440 I will never forget at. The time of India becoming a 137 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,960 Republic, it already had its biggest hero. 138 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:15,640 Doctor Sunawala talks about how Mahatma Gandhi's methods were 139 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,360 questioned right until India became independent. 140 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,640 But on hindsight, it's even more remarkable, he says. 141 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:28,800 I think he was the right person who was responsible for the 142 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,360 independence that we finally got without violence. 143 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,360 That time it seemed that it was stupid, we nonviolent, to get 144 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:47,000 the independence, but after so many years only realizes that 145 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,400 what he did and achieved was something unimaginable. 146 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:56,640 Without violence, without a gunfire, without a fight, 147 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,600 without anything. He managed to get the country 148 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,840 full independence. Julie Ribero, on the other hand, 149 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,280 remembers Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru and talks of the aura that 150 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,400 surrounded India's first Prime Minister. 151 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,760 Panditji I saw very often in the course of my duties my wife and 152 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,720 my baby, which she had just been. 153 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,160 She was about a year old and she, the baby was brought by my 154 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:30,280 wife to be pitted by Panditji in Nanded, where I was the SP and I 155 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 remember that very well. I remember people running after 156 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,600 his his Jeep usually like to stand in the Jeep. 157 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,600 We have out to everyone and we were very worried, but there was 158 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,200 not that great danger in those days. 159 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,400 People were just happy with him. Rahul Singh, on the other hand, 160 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,480 remembers the effects of Partition on his family's life. 161 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,080 He remembers how Partition changed people and the effect it 162 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,880 had on his father. What I do remember about Lahore 163 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:06,960 is the school I went to and a girl became my very close friend 164 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,600 called Shereen Qadar. Shereen's parents father was a 165 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,440 very well known lawyer in Pakistan called Mansoor Qadar 166 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,360 who then later on became head of the Supreme Court in Pakistan 167 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,840 and Foreign Minister under Yuk Khan. 168 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:31,480 When the riots took place and Partition took place, Mansoor 169 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,240 Qadar and his family moved into what you see my father's house 170 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,760 that so that it would not get looted. 171 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,680 And my father, he left everything to Manzoor Kadar and 172 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,520 Manzoor Kadar became the owner of that house. 173 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,920 What partition did was, I think it created two kinds of people, 174 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:01,760 one who suffered a lot and who became very embittered and sort 175 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,960 of, I would say, almost communal because that suffered at the 176 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,320 hands of Muslims that became rather communal. 177 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:14,360 But my father was in the other categories of those who were not 178 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,800 embitted, who who were sad that the country had been divided up, 179 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,760 and who made it their ambition to try and bring the two people 180 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,400 together. Not that it will ever be 181 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,840 possible to bring the two countries together, but at least 182 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,600 try and have better relations between Indians and Pakistan. 183 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,320 That's what was his great dream. And as a result of that, 184 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,160 whenever any Pakistani came to visit India and wanted to see my 185 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,520 father, father was quite busy at that time. 186 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,800 He always opened his doors. There's a joke in the family 187 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,400 because he was little particular whom came to see him when we 188 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,840 picked up the phone. If it if it sounded like a 189 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,720 Muslim from Pakistan, immediately they were welcome 190 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:11,640 to, you know, come this. No, that whatever we were being 191 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:22,240 ruled by is now our own responsibility to find the means 192 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,840 of ruling the country and deciding on rules, laws, 193 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,560 whatever we want according to what we needed. 194 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:38,760 And independence was a sort of a freedom, freedom in life, which 195 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,720 is very, very important. Freedom of thinking, freedom of 196 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:51,080 speaking, freedom of action. And it is a necessity of life. 197 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:58,840 And we got that on 13th August 1947. 198 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:06,120 So that we had to work hard to develop our country and although 199 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:13,640 we might not be as fast as people would like or we would 200 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:21,600 like, but throughout these years India has progressed and in the 201 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,000 right direction. There is a lot to cheer about 202 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,320 India as it turns 76. Bhavika and Lata spoke with our 203 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,040 three interviewees about what they thought was the biggest 204 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,560 improvement that they've seen in their lifetimes. 205 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,880 Rahul Singh points out how, while the biggest change he's 206 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,160 seen in recent times is the growth of the information 207 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,600 technology sector, there are other things like the green 208 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,000 revolution that ensured an end to famines. 209 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:56,000 In the last last few years I can say the the revolution in in 210 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,040 information technology, that's number of smartphones, people 211 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,560 are using all that. I think that but before that, 212 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,840 frankly we really hadn't. We did have a green revolution. 213 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,960 As a result of the green revolution we were able to feed 214 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,480 our people. There were no mass tannins. 215 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,960 The other achievement, if you can call it that, was that our 216 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,520 foreign policy was we were admired, you know, in the world 217 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,880 non alignment policy was something which Nehru himself, 218 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:37,520 you know, pioneered really and it gave us a certain stature in 219 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,800 the world. While it might not be an Indian 220 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,840 invention, Dr. Sunawala points out that it was medical imaging 221 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,280 that completely changed his line of work. 222 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,680 In the medical field, mainly upset the guy inside, plus in 223 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,280 other especially it is too imaging. 224 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,680 The ultrasound has really changed the approach due to 225 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,760 medical treatment because we could better diagnose. 226 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,839 You can see you can diagnose properly, and if your diagnosis 227 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:18,240 is good, your treatment is good. But Doctor Sunnawala is just as 228 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,119 happy about the rise of women in India, something he says is a 229 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,359 far cry from the situation when he took up medicine. 230 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,040 I used to. I am an obstetrician 231 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:34,000 gynaecologist looking after the welfare of the women, not only 232 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,680 the health thing, but the welfare of the women. 233 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:45,280 And what was striking was the complete empathy towards the 234 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,200 health of the women. Nobody bothered. 235 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,280 They were always considered as a second class citizen, no 236 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:58,240 facilities given everywhere it was a male dominant society. 237 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:05,520 Now I am so glad to say that especially in our obstetric tiny 238 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:11,280 field, the women have become the leaders as they should be, 239 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,680 because it is after all their own fellow sex people who they 240 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,240 have to look after the amount of women power that is building up 241 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,280 the women heading major institutions, which at that time 242 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:33,520 was not even thought of. Julia Ribero says the use of 243 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,920 technology in policing today is impressive, though he admits he 244 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,760 can't really keep up with it. For example, I don't know this 245 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,240 technology like I like now. Today, even Mr. Rani, he knows 246 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,760 technology very well and I keep him present to help me because I 247 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,480 I can't get used to it because I am though. 248 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,760 But now technology is most important. 249 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:02,160 Every policeman knows it and all my grandchildren, they laugh at 250 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,040 me because I can't do it. So they come and help me to get 251 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,560 it all done. However, what upsets the former 252 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,080 director general of police is that police forces have become 253 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,520 more compromised to political powers. 254 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,120 That is unfortunate because of the influence of politics, 255 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:28,200 because a lot of people want to now advance not by their own 256 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400 work but by becoming friendly with the politicians. 257 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,960 And that is causing a lot of problem. 258 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,240 It never happened in our time and we we were, I think, 259 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,920 fortunately not involved in all this. 260 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,560 Julie Ribero says that unless the law is implemented 261 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,000 impartially, the respect for the rule of law will only keep 262 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,840 declining. Unless the rule of law that 263 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,400 means whoever commits an offence should be prosecuted, you don't 264 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,360 have to go and put him in the lockup. 265 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:05,160 Now they are putting people five years, those those leftists are 266 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,960 kept there for five years and God knows what that evidence is. 267 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,360 It is its very unfortunate. I think the whole system has 268 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,760 changed and that is not to our advantage. 269 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,040 Because if people get used to this kind, they will stop 270 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,360 learning how to investigate that. 271 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,680 Nowadays you will find that officers at that level of Mr. 272 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,560 Raniyan, they don't take interest in investigation 273 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,760 because they know it doesn't matter the sum if he is this 274 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,640 party or that party, he gets off. 275 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,040 If he is, that party will put inside. 276 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,240 We were not brought up like that. 277 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,440 That whoever it is from whichever party, that is not our 278 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,120 concern. Is there anybody willing to 279 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:53,840 talk, say to Modi Ji or to or to our. 280 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,720 They're afraid. They're so afraid. 281 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,760 No, this is not the way out of people. 282 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,840 So it's quite different. Yeah, I would not be able to 283 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,280 work in this second, I can tell you that. 284 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,840 But what do they see as India's biggest failures in 76 years? 285 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,520 Rahul Singh says that for him, it's the failure to reduce 286 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,880 poverty in the country as well as the failure to provide better 287 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,720 health care and education to its citizens. 288 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:31,000 I think our biggest failure, I would say there are two areas 289 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,360 and they're all connected. I think our biggest failure has 290 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,880 been to not reduce the number of poor people in the country. 291 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,880 We still have about 250 million Indians who are below the 292 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,240 poverty line. I think our second biggest 293 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,560 failure has been in the area of health and education. 294 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,320 Nehru was a great man, had a great vision, but the two areas 295 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,360 where he I think failed, where a country like China did much 296 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,760 better. Even a country like Indonesia, 297 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,840 big country did better, was in the areas of education and 298 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,800 health. And by education, I don't mean 299 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,720 higher education. We set up Iits and IIMS and, you 300 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,680 know, good universities. But where we failed was in 301 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,240 providing good basic primary schools all over the country. 302 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:32,240 We didn't do pay enough emphasis on Primary Health care and 303 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,720 primary schools. And connected with that was our 304 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,160 failure to control the population growth rate. 305 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,720 Julia Ribeiro also believes that it's illiteracy that the Indian 306 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,280 state should have done more to tackle. 307 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,920 Dr. Sunawala, who has campaigned for population control for many 308 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,360 years of his life, says the Indian state should have done 309 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,600 more to curb the growth of the nation's population. 310 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,600 We may make a proud. To show. 311 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,440 India is the most populated country. 312 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:05,720 I really feel sorry for them if they don't realize what is the 313 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:14,280 benefit of a big, uneducated, poorly fed, unhealthy and 314 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:20,000 unprovided for a shelter population in the country where 315 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,080 I would say it's a human right to be looked after for 316 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,080 education, for health, for food and accommodation. 317 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,440 It is the human right which our country should look into. 318 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,560 For every individual Indian that is born. 319 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:50,080 Education and health are very necessary for the progress of a 320 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,360 country. It is not whether we can make 321 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,960 planes or whether we can make tanks or whether we can make 322 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,200 guns. That is important for the 323 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,840 country. Our countries progress as a 324 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:10,400 doctor and a citizen, I would say is to be measured by a 325 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,520 yardstick of how much good health you can provide them, 326 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,880 good education we can provide them and a good happy life we 327 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,120 can provide them. Happiness in life is a very 328 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:31,680 important thing and I would say hardly any people are that happy 329 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,280 as they should be. But what of the future? 330 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,760 India, at 76, is in a moment where its influence as an 331 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,040 economic and political power is growing. 332 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,280 What do our interviewees worry about in India's future? 333 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,360 Rahul Singh says that India shouldn't take its freedom for 334 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:51,200 granted, especially at a time it has a majoritarian government. 335 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,320 But he has no doubt that the future is bright for India. 336 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,040 He would, however, like to see India be able to retain its 337 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,880 brightest in the country I. Think we've got a great future. 338 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,480 Look at how Indians have done all over the world. 339 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,600 But the sad part is Indians have done very well when they go 340 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,920 abroad. They should be doing better in 341 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,920 India itself. We should remove some of the 342 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,280 shackles that there are on Indian business here. 343 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,680 You know, almost every second friend I've got has got their 344 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,560 children studying and living abroad. 345 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,600 Why? They should be coming here and 346 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,800 there should be conditions here where they are able to really 347 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,440 thrive and improve the Indian economy. 348 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,200 I wish there were more and more Indians educated Indians who 349 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,640 would work for this country. When I was finished my studies 350 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,320 amongst all of my contemporaries, there was no 351 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,760 question about staying abroad. We all took it for granted that 352 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,240 we were coming back to India. Nowadays they want to live 353 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,400 abroad and not come back to this country. 354 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,240 At my time, they all wanted to come back to the there was a 355 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,360 feeling of nationalism, feeling to serve the country that 356 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,160 somehow is gone. You've got a certain kind of 357 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,360 nationalism here, but it's not the same kind of nationalism 358 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:25,680 that was there at my time. Doctor Sunavala worries about a 359 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,240 future where justice is openly denied and the rights of women 360 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:36,040 are not protected. Arrogance and greed are two 361 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,160 things which is ruining the human life. 362 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,280 Greed. For. 363 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:51,520 More and more and more if you have enough to look after your 364 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:58,840 day-to-day food, home happiness, Good sleep at night is what is 365 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,280 more important then a bank balance or a black money balance 366 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,920 going into crores and crores of rupees? 367 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:14,320 The women who brought credit to the country, but we had any gold 368 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:20,200 medals, how shabbily they are being treated by the boss. 369 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,320 Who was? Very uncomfortably touching 370 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,720 their body. He is behaving as if he has done 371 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,520 something right when there are so many girls who have been 372 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,240 molested by that individual, yet he is going free. 373 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:43,960 It is something which is unacceptable. 374 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,520 The women and children are not protected in any society. 375 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:59,680 That society is not worth living for and that is what is 376 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,000 happening in the country, the politics and justice being 377 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:11,280 denied, openly denied. Julia Ribero worries that 378 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,680 movements to maintain communal harmony are no longer working. 379 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,960 He cautions that while there is a lot to cheer about India's 380 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,080 growth, there is a lot to be cautious about as well. 381 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,560 After I returned from Romania, I used to get involved in 382 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,760 Commonwealth harmony. We had the mohalla committee 383 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,920 movement and we had succeeded. But now the same workers tell me 384 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,920 that there is so much fear and all the work they have done is 385 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,560 now of no use. They have to start off again. 386 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,440 Where I don't give up, don't give up because it's not fair to 387 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,600 the people. I would say that the present 388 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,960 government in power has done a lot of good work. 389 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:01,000 Let us not diminish their work. For example, the money goes 390 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,920 directly into the bank. That's a great greatness of 391 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,160 them. And there are many other things 392 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,160 that what shall I say, that they have succeeded it. 393 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:20,520 But this kind of What is the word for it? 394 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,400 Prejudice against one particular community is not going to help 395 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,840 this country at all. It might give them votes first. 396 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,000 I thought it is for the purpose of getting power that if you go 397 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,840 after this community, the Hindu vote will be will come together 398 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,840 80% of the people. But it has not happened like 399 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,320 that. But quite a number of people who 400 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,360 would not have voted have have voting for them. 401 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,480 I have no doubt about that. What is politics? 402 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,280 Its a quest for power. So if they get power that way, I 403 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,080 suppose I how can I fight with them? 404 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,360 But the down the downside is what I have worried that if you 405 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,160 divide people in this manner like they are doing, it is going 406 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,400 to be bad in the long run. We have a very dangerous 407 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,480 neighbor on our east. The one on the West we can 408 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:32,680 manage easily, but the one on the east is very dangerous and 409 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,720 is much stronger than us. So I think the whole approach 410 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,520 should be like that, that please keep in mind the future of this 411 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,640 country and if you just go around wanting only to win 412 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,600 election, it might cause a lot of problems in the future. 413 00:30:53,800 --> 00:31:02,880 This is my view. Today's episode was produced by 414 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,800 Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 415 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,600 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 416 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,400 We're available on TOI plus Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts 417 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,360 and all other platforms of your choice. 418 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,960 For any new steps, e-mail us at toipodcast at Timesinternet in.