1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,360 From Indias largest. Newsroom I'm Arun George and 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:05,000 this. Is. 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:19,760 The Times of India Podcast. Last year, it was Bengaluru and 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,880 Guwahati. This year, it was the turn of 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,280 Chennai to experience heavier than expected flooding. 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,280 Floods in Indian cities are regular fairs, but instead of 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,920 dealing with them better over the years, we seem to be dealing 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,840 with them just as badly every year. 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,320 In Chennai, the arrival of Cyclone Michong caused at least 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,760 18 deaths, widespread flooding and damage to property. 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,600 While it isn't right to compare a city with another, there's a 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,520 remarkable similarity in how badly cities cope with such 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,360 events. While drainage solutions are the 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,080 1st to be blamed, we've done this episode earlier in which we 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,600 spoke of why just building drains isn't a solution for 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,720 cities. In this episode we've spoken 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,520 with Jagdish Krishnaswamy, who is the Dean of the School of 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,840 Environment and Sustainability at the Indian Institute for 19 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,440 Human Settlements. He'd explain what cities need to 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,120 change if they want to reduce the impact of urban floods, and 21 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,280 how even buildings and cities might need to change completely 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,320 to adapt to the changes in climate we could see in the near 23 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:15,440 future. One factor that always comes up 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,680 is the fact that there is the absence of adequate drainage 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,160 altogether. How much of a factor do you see 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,880 this as being for these cities to almost completely flood in 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,480 some ways? We have to take a slightly 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,360 longer term view of the drainage pattern and dynamics of a 29 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,280 cityscape. There are what used to be called 30 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,040 nullahs in northern India. We have logical ways and many 31 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,440 other types of stormwater drains in Bengaluru and other cities. 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,560 And there was some form of hydrologic connectivity from 1 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,000 area to the next. And over a period of time we 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,800 have encroached on many of the drainage networks, both legally 35 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,600 and illegally. We have basically not allowing 36 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,720 for water to move freely and then whatever reduced number of 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,720 drains are are active in those. We have further added to the 38 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,000 problem by disposing of our solid waste because these often 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,440 occupy with huge volumes and they cause, you know, choking of 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,440 the drains whenever we have even moderate rates. 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,200 And then when we have a very intense train, it can create a 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,960 lot of problems. So we have actually seen a much, 43 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,760 slightly bigger version of the problem in the last few days in 44 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,040 Bengaluru. But this is something that we 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,800 have to be prepared for. Large areas in Bengaluru, which 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,000 used to be able to absorb rainfall because they were 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,760 permeable, have been built over. So we'll have to rethink the way 48 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,760 in which we build pavements, the way in which we build roads, 49 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,400 other infrastructure. It has to allow for rainwater to 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,800 be able to be absorbed. There aren't designs available 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,400 so that Bengaluru can move from a choking city to a soaking city 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,320 so that we are able to cope with the effect of climate change and 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,920 the higher intensity of rains that many of our cities are 54 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:18,680 being pounded by. This is now something that's 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,040 being spoken of with multiple cities, where we have to rethink 56 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,360 how these cities are. But the big crisis is also the 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,200 fact that these cities are built. 58 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,880 How do cities adapt with that situation where they have things 59 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,280 that exist and are big and immovable? 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,800 So for example at a finer scale apartment complexes, 61 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,560 neighbourhoods, wards, they all have to think about OK, how can 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,720 we maximize the absorption of rainwater, the infiltration of 63 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:56,000 rainwater and also promote local connectivity in terms of the of 64 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,600 the storm water to water bodies. So that's at the local scale and 65 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,000 and we have to ensure that that that this scaling up can occur 66 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,000 from that scale. And then at a larger scale of 67 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,240 both in terms of the cityscape itself or the catchments that 68 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,280 exist in Bengaluru. We really need to think about 69 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,880 the major hydrologic pathways that need to be maintained so 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,240 that the we will have greater ability to deal with and reduce 71 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,080 the risk of flooding in the future. 72 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,160 There are many places, for example, many water bodies which 73 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,360 you know, may actually gather a lot of water only in once in 74 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,720 five or six years or seven years or 10 years maybe. 75 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:43,200 Now those types of spaces often get encroached upon because for 76 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,320 some years at a stretch, it looks as if nothing is 77 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,480 happening, that land is available and the people make 78 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,200 use of it, both legally and illegally. 79 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,760 Now that has to stop. We have to think about which are 80 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,400 the depressions and natural areas that can actually be a 81 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,680 buffer for us in the future. Which means that the land use of 82 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,840 these areas has to be changed and they have to be protected 83 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,440 and considered as part of what is known as the natural 84 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,720 infrastructure, the green and blue infrastructure of Bengaluru 85 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,480 to cope with with these types of of extreme regiments which are 86 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,640 going to become more common in the future. 87 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,560 There are many parts of cities that are already built into 88 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,880 former lake beds or catchment areas. 89 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,120 What do we do with those areas now? 90 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,080 That is going to be tough, but we'll, I think there are still 91 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,080 opportunities for doing modifications in some of these 92 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,560 areas. Whatever pathways, hydrologic 93 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,880 pathways and drains can be restored through civil 94 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,520 engineering, through acquisition of land, we may have to take 95 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,480 some hard decisions in some parts of the city. 96 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,680 It's not that we have to live with all the mistakes that we 97 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,080 have made in the past. I think some of them will have 98 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,200 to rectify and who pays for it and and should the burden fall 99 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,280 on which group of citizens and and so on, that is something 100 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,800 that needs to be negotiated and worked upon. 101 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,960 I I mean to say that if there are going to be modifications in 102 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,240 existing places just to so that that the risk of trading is 103 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:23,120 reduced in the future, there will be some issues of land and 104 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,320 buildings that need to be modified, they need to be 105 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,080 redone. Some encroachments will have to 106 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,000 be removed. You can start with illegal 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,520 encroachments, but then also we have to realize that that there 108 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,920 are some people who are much more particularly vulnerable 109 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,960 informal settlements, people who don't have that many ways of of 110 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,520 coping with the threats. These have to be protected. 111 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,560 I mean, these are vulnerable citizens, marginalized citizens, 112 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,360 and as in the recent recent case that we saw water from an 113 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,560 apartment complex was let out into an informal settlement, 114 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,760 only some types of citizens seem to be able to have the 115 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,280 wherewithal and the access to power and to be able to do such 116 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:12,160 actions. And clearly it was not solving 117 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,320 the problem, it was just transferring it elsewhere. 118 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,840 So we definitely need much more coordination at the local scale 119 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,920 to ensure that all citizens are protected from Friday. 120 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,160 With climate change itself, one major factor is, like you said, 121 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,160 heavier rains, more intense rains over shorter periods. 122 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,800 How prepared do you see Indian cities as presently to deal with 123 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,840 this? If you recall, we had more than 124 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,680 950mm of rainfall in a single day in Mumbai some years back. 125 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,960 Then we had 2225mm of rainfall in Chennai in a day and 1/2 and 126 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,240 that created havoc. And now these recent floods in 127 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,920 Bengaluru have have in some sense shown us the mirror we we 128 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,400 need to act fast. We need to change the way we are 129 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,720 looking at Urban Development. And every green space that can 130 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,880 absorb rainfall is now going to be a precious piece of our 131 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,840 natural infrastructure or natural assets that will help us 132 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,840 to cope in the future. And so this whole, this whole 133 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,800 dichotomy that set up of of development versus, you know, 134 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,640 ecology and environment, I think we need to really recast it in a 135 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,039 different way. Because this, this green and 136 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:37,000 blue infrastructure that's vital for for, for reducing the risk 137 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,840 of flooding and for making Bengaluru safer in the future, 138 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,920 is an integral part of the city's development and not an 139 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,520 impediment to its development. Is there a sort of catch all 140 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,760 solution for all? Or are there certain solutions 141 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 that really fit in for all cities and need to be 142 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,280 implemented on a sort of short term basis? 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,560 No, there are very different characteristics that we have to 144 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:07,800 take into and factors that we have to consider. 145 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,160 For example cities that are built in front plates in Assam 146 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,960 or elsewhere. We have to be very careful 147 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,440 because floodplains, they are active, they become activated 148 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,400 during certain types of events and they are cannot be 149 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,120 considered as as a sort of a place for permanent large types 150 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,480 of infrastructure to come up. We'll have to think of of 151 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:33,080 innovative ways of of using floodplains so that people can 152 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,840 use them safely for livelihoods and jobs and avoid the type of 153 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,480 infrastructure that will obstruct the movement of water 154 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,960 and sediment. Because that is the key to to be 155 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,760 able to cope with the floods and and threading phenomena. 156 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,400 We'll have to in some sense adapt to those. 157 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,640 And we'll have to have new ways of of development and urban 158 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,400 growth and business as usual is unlikely to be successful in the 159 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,680 future under climate change. The big challenge with cities, 160 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:07,720 he says, is that highland prices make infrastructure changes more 161 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,120 difficult, even after catastrophic events. 162 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,240 And then there are the many smaller cities that are being 163 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,920 developed upgraded as future smart cities. 164 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,600 However, Jagdish Krishnaswamy cautions that they won't be very 165 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:26,120 smart if they're underwater. I think that even this notion of 166 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,440 smart city, smart cities will only be smart if you if you take 167 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,120 hydrology, ecology and environmental justice into 168 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,360 account. Who are the vulnerable people 169 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,280 living in the city? Where are the informal 170 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,480 settlements that are likely to be exposed to flooding? 171 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,600 Are some some citizens more exposed to flooding and and 172 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,960 environmental disasters and others? 173 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,840 All of these factors have to be taken into account when thinking 174 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,440 about the future of so-called smart city. 175 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,680 In cities like Bengaluru, one thing that struck me was the 176 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:04,320 fact that these underground ground floor apartments in many 177 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,120 places were very badly flooded. And that's something we see in, 178 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,760 say, north of India as well. Do we have to change how we live 179 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,920 in some ways also? Are we looking at that sort of 180 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,240 death knell for those kinds of structures altogether? 181 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,200 I think that we have to rethink the these types of of building 182 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,520 designs and and also we have to realize that you know 183 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,440 deceptively for many years we might be thinking that we have 184 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,320 built on very firm ground. But these are often our areas 185 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,680 which in the past were part of depressions or or valleys that 186 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,400 would get flooded or would get higher moisture accumulation. 187 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,240 At some point in time, you have to take a very longer term view 188 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,840 of of the catchment and its dynamics. 189 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,680 And it may not be apparent that, you know, a basement which might 190 00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,680 look very safe for a few years. Suddenly you're going to get 191 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,160 this interaction between surface and groundwater. 192 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,960 That's going to end up with flooding it. 193 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,960 And also it's going to pose a lot of danger to to citizens at 194 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,240 large and also possibly cause damages to the buildings 195 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:20,120 themselves. So we may have to rethink the 196 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,200 way in which certain types of buildings are allowed in some of 197 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,280 these vulnerable areas. I also want to ask you in terms 198 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,240 of cities, what is the one thing you look at in Indian cities now 199 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,520 and sort of hold your head one thing why this was done? 200 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,640 I think that the fact that we often did not look at at cities 201 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,680 as a functioning ecosystem because just like other 202 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:53,560 ecosystems have hydrology, ecology and everything, they all 203 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:57,480 have to to perform well in order to for that ecosystem to 204 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,360 function. We have to look at cities also 205 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,280 as an ecosystem. There are good things which have 206 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,320 happened in Bengaluru too, like there's much more awareness 207 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,840 about our lakes in the last few years and we do have a good 208 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,400 network of lakes. We some of them are well 209 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,440 connected, some are not. We do have some awareness that 210 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,080 many of our stormwater drains need to be maintained better 211 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,760 than some have been encroached upon. 212 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,080 There is some awareness about that from both on the government 213 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,960 side as well as in civil society, and we just need to 214 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,800 harness this awareness into action. 215 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,000 Jagdish Krishnaswamy says there's no lack of evidence 216 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,720 anymore that climate change and how we use land can cause floods 217 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,000 in cities. And that means cities can't put 218 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,160 off thinking about solutions anymore. 219 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,560 This interaction of this climate change with the land use has 220 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:58,800 already given us lots of generated lot of evidence that 221 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,880 we need to change at least for the future. 222 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,120 So any new infrastructure that comes up in cities and towns, 223 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,520 clearly we do not have the justification that we didn't 224 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,680 know what to do. And with the existing 225 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,920 infrastructure, yes, adaptation is going to be a little bit more 226 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,120 expensive and difficult, but we have to find ways to do that as 227 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:27,280 well. Today's episode was produced by 228 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,000 Jayaraj Singh, Sunai Marathi and Anuja Singh. 229 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,720 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 230 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,760 subscribe to us. We're available on TOI plus 231 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,200 Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your 232 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,320 choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 233 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,200 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot in.