1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:21,880 Times. Of. 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:33,720 India Podcast Priyanshu Yadav was like many other young online 4 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,080 influencers who are trying to build a following. 5 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,440 On his Instagram handle, there are videos of him experimenting 6 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,640 with various types of makeup and dress on Diwali. 7 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,120 He posted a video to his nearly 15,000 followers in which he's 8 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,280 dancing and then there's a transition into him dressed in 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:01:01,000 Asadi Priyanshu died by suicide in his home when his mother had 10 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,440 gone out. It's still not clear what were 11 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,600 the issues affecting him, but a finger of blame has been pointed 12 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,400 at the sheer number of hate messages he received for the 13 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,160 video of him dressed in a sari. Shivam Bhardwaj is a queer 14 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,800 influencer who has over 1,00,000 followers on YouTube and over 15 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,240 3800 followers on Instagram. On his handle, the Guy in a 16 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,200 skirt, Shivam posts fashion and makeup related videos while also 17 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,600 blogging about his life. Shivam says he's seen an uptick 18 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,360 in hate comments since the news of Priyanshu's death and the 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,360 circumstances behind it were. Reported. 20 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,440 I just feel like after Pranshu's death, people have just started 21 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,320 putting more hate in the comment section of Square Creators. 22 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,800 Personally, I've noticed that I people are literally commenting 23 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,160 when it's my turn because Pranshu is gone when it's my 24 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,840 turn next to you. Those were the comments 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,920 triggering to me because I was like, Oh my God, you are wishing 26 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,040 for my death. That is the last thing I want. 27 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,280 In today's episode, we're speaking with Shivam Bhardwaj 28 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,040 and Anish Gawande, the founder of Pink List, about the abuse 29 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,120 faced online by queer influencers. 30 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,680 While Shivam explains the hate speech queer influencers face, 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,360 particularly those who are from small towns, Anish Gawande talks 32 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,480 about his bigger worries. Given the lack of policing and 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,600 rise in hate speech on online platforms. 34 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,080 Shivam Bhardwaj says there's no shortage of hate comments that 35 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,520 he receives on social media platforms, but he says his own 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,720 life experiences growing up in me that have helped him deal 37 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,120 with them better. The reason you see me still 38 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,960 sounding so confident and so comfortable is because I was 39 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,680 bullied to a level in my childhood and in my school life 40 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,280 that right now all these social media bullies, they are so small 41 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,520 and so tiny in front of that. So that trauma is so much bigger 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,240 than all these social media beliefs. 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,240 They are literally like why this guy is not getting affected, why 44 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,080 he's like living his life continuously. 45 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,040 And I always say the reason is because of course I I got 46 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,200 bullied to a level where I feel like this is so small to me 47 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,240 right now. This is just so funny. 48 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,320 I literally laugh on these comments, Shivam says. 49 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,080 He was often targeted in school because he was seen as what he 50 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,560 terms a soft guy, He says. His mannerisms were more 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,720 effeminate, and that in turn made him a target for bullies. 52 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,640 I still remember this experience where these bullies literally 53 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:26,120 tore my inner and that after that the inner was on the floor 54 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,480 and our English teacher enters and see that something happened. 55 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Of course you see someone inner on the floor. 56 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Of course, the first thing you will say is what was happening 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,040 here. You don't say a single word. 58 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 She literally ignored everything and that is something which will 59 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,040 always remain in my heart. I just feel bad for them because 60 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,840 I feel like as they literally failed in a humanity test. 61 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,120 I don't feel like they were humans at that point of time 62 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,920 because if they were teachers they should have noticed that 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,600 lot of things were happening with me. 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,640 If you raise your voice, these bullies will come back harder on 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,840 you. So that was my issue. 66 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,440 Like no one was there to support me. 67 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,840 Now of course, talk to my mom and I told her that this is all 68 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,640 happening, but it never stopped. Honestly, even if I say my mom 69 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,079 tried a school for a queer person in India, school is a 70 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,440 very shitty place to go. I don't have a good memories of 71 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,320 my school. That is the reason I'd never 72 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,120 talk about it on my social media. 25 year old Shivam says 73 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:29,360 He had his first photo shoot when he was in the eighth 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,640 standard. He then started posting fashion 75 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,880 related photos of himself on Facebook because he didn't know 76 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,880 of Instagram initially. He says he always got hate 77 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,360 comments on social media and was also dissuaded by people he 78 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,200 knew. I think when I started it was 79 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,280 not extreme but eventually when they saw that I am not stop it. 80 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,400 So whether it was my family or it was my friends or it was 81 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,720 anyone from my hometown, they were very, like, rude to me. 82 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:03,560 I know they all were laughing behind my back, somewhere fast, 83 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,560 somewhere laughing on my face. But I always knew that I have a 84 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,800 goal. Simple act like wearing a skirt. 85 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,720 It's still something that is frowned on in social media. 86 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,120 How challenging is it to be that on a public platform? 87 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,280 It is very, very challenging. I feel because a lot of people 88 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:28,000 who are putting their bad comments and opinion on us, 89 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,800 these opinions are not coming from them. 90 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,440 It is their mindset, which is not even their mindset. 91 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,160 It is something which is a concept which has been carried 92 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,000 forward to their mind that we cannot accept people like these. 93 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,080 That was doing it on like my terrace. 94 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,480 I still remember people were like, oh, you're just wearing 95 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,000 these clothes in your home. You will never do it out there 96 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,920 in the public because it takes a lot of guts and you will never 97 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,200 do it. And a lot of haters were like 98 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,120 that. And then I started wearing all 99 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,160 these clothes outside. So they were shocked. 100 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,280 So the comments got really, really extreme. 101 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,880 So they were like, OK, now you're doing it for attention 102 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,600 and you are not a man. You will never be a man. 103 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,320 It keeps getting extreme and extreme. 104 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,920 So there was a point where I was like, OK, I don't have to prove 105 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,760 anything to anyone. Now it's quite done. 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,200 What is it like? To be online and sort of have an 107 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,480 oversized online presence when you're in a smaller town. 108 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,400 And this ties in with the Pranshu case only because I 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,120 wonder if you're from a smaller town, is the bullying more 110 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,760 intense you feel in a smaller city than, say, in a bigger 111 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,240 metro? 101 person I think it's not 112 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,280 same. It's very extreme even with the 113 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:41,440 Pranshu case. The only reason I related to him 114 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,760 so much is because I come from Meerut. 115 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,560 I do feel that all the queer people who come from small 116 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,080 cities, all the LGBTQ plus community people who come from 117 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,040 small cities, they do face the extreme bullying and it is more 118 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,480 harder for us to come out of our shells and fight for a dream, 119 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,360 fight for our identities and our place. 120 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,920 It is honestly like three times harder for us because people are 121 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,120 really, really extreme, even the question they will ask you, but 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,520 I feel like in. Cities like Delhi, Mumbai, they 123 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,320 are more educated and they have a little bit more knowledge 124 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,280 about the community since rising in the ranks of influencers. 125 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,000 Shivam Bhardwaj says he has received a lot of support for 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,280 his videos in which he's seen in makeup and dresses in public 127 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,720 places. He says while many believe he's 128 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,960 doing this to inspire others, he says it's as much about pursuing 129 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,240 his dream of being an influencer and working in the fashion 130 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,440 industry. They think the reason I'm going 131 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,040 out in public. Wearing skirts are doing all 132 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,280 these crazy things that people do think that I'm a crazy person 133 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,200 to do all this stuff going out in public. 134 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,760 But the fact they think that is powerful to them because I 135 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,200 received endless DM saying oh the reason you go out and wear 136 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,600 all these clothes is the reason we are going out And they send 137 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,040 me the pictures and they wear skirts and they send me their 138 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,040 all the good pictures. I I feel happy. 139 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,960 But the fact is that I started. Just because I wanted to be 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,280 something so that people don't laugh on me and then it 141 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,320 continued. Continue to a motive where I 142 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,720 feel like of course I still want to make this my career. 143 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,480 It was never about, Oh my God, I'm a gay man and I will just 144 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,360 create videos. I I want to be a successful 145 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,760 content creator. Why not? 146 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Every other state creator is doing it for money now, and if I 147 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,040 have a talent and I do crazy creative videos, so why not? 148 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,559 A lot of your videos are shot in public places. 149 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,400 I've seen videos of you in trains. 150 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,400 I'm just curious, how does that go because you face a very 151 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,240 hostile environment in the online space. 152 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,200 Does that ever mirror in the real? 153 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,960 World, This will sound really shocking because I know people 154 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,120 will be expecting me to say that I face the shows out in public. 155 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:00,040 But I have never and I wish I will never face. 156 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,080 And I think one of the reason can be this is not my word. 157 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,560 This is actually my videographer and my assistant word telling me 158 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,280 that I come out like the way I walk and the way I put my 159 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,880 attitude on in public. It's very strong. 160 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,320 People will take five times to come to you and talk shit at 161 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,040 that moment. Of course, when you are younger. 162 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,520 The kind of attitude I have right now, I didn't had that 163 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,200 like five years back. I feel like a lot of young queer 164 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,560 traitors and young queer people in my community. 165 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,680 They must be facing a lot because I feel like they have 166 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:33,320 started wearing all these cute, lovely clothes outside. 167 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,880 And I know people can be really rude. 168 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,640 I know I expose myself to an extreme level of public going 169 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,520 out in a Mumbai local train, walking on a gateway of India. 170 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,240 It was something which I never planned to do. 171 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,640 I just did it for fun. But thank God I never saved any 172 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,280 issue. Like Shivam, Bhardwaj said 173 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,240 earlier he doesn't take critical comments on social media too 174 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,520 seriously, but he admits they do get to him at times. 175 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,600 So I really don't focus on the extreme hate comments because I 176 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,640 know from where it is coming. But of course I will say it's 177 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,200 very hard to ignore. So I also know why a lot of 178 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,640 queer creators cannot ignore those comments. 179 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,480 I always. Try to ignore it and focus on 180 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,240 the positive part in my life and that has helped me a lot. 181 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,760 My mom is kind of a therapist to me. 182 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,160 If something get into my mind, which is really extreme, I 183 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,280 literally talk to my mom and she's always very helpful in 184 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,160 this situation. But even someone like Shivam 185 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,640 Bhardwaj, who's used to ignoring comments on post, says the 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,240 comments that came after Priyanshu's death, in which 187 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,240 people told him it was his turn next, really got to him. 188 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,320 Coming from a family where I also need to take care of my 189 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,200 family, my mom who has given her all. 190 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,960 The last thing I want to hear is you're wishing my death because 191 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,440 you are having fun doing that. So that was figuring to me. 192 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,760 So if you come on my family or my mom or on something so I 193 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,840 extreme wishing my pet, I will not be good to you. 194 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,920 Like, I am not kind to them. Shivam also says it's very 195 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,760 difficult to ignore comments when you're an influencer 196 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,880 because they're part of the feedback loop to understand 197 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,160 what's working with an audience and what's not. 198 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,280 It is very hard to do that, but I wish that all the queer 199 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,680 creators can do that. The moment you see your video is 200 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:17,640 getting viral, don't on your notifications. 201 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,080 Forget the love, forget the hate. 202 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,840 The moment we get viral, the hate goes to some extreme level. 203 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,080 Instagram has this one feature where you can literally add the 204 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,400 words which you don't want to see on your profile, Shivam 205 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,440 Bhardwaj says. Adding a hate word filter on 206 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,720 Instagram can slow the amount of hate comments coming his way. 207 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,960 He explains why. Only like 10% of haters have 208 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,360 that kind of time. They don't have anything good to 209 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,000 do in their life. Let this sit down and try keep 210 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,840 commenting again and again. But I feel like there are also 211 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,560 people who have some work to do. Even if they want to put a hate 212 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,000 comment, they will try it once they feel like, oh why can't I 213 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,080 use this slur in his comment section and they will give up on 214 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,720 it. They will not try like 10 times. 215 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,880 But then of course, Meta and Instagram can do better. 216 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,040 Shivam Bhardwaj says he has seen Priyanshu's online profiles 217 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,800 after his death and says it shouldn't be another case of a 218 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,120 queer life lost because of non acceptance and hate. 219 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,240 We still don't know exactly what he was feeling at that point of 220 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,760 time because he's a very confident person. 221 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,080 I saw his post, I saw his comment section the way he used 222 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,400 to reply. Even I don't reply these days to 223 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,080 my haters because I feel like I don't want to waste my energy on 224 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,000 them. But I love people who are still 225 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,080 replying because it takes a lot of energy. 226 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,560 To give back to the haters and of course a lot of time I just 227 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,800 feel bad that Pran show is gone. Our way is gone. 228 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,840 A lot of people we don't know they are also gone. 229 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,800 I wish we could like get their names because so many people who 230 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,000 are not social media creators, we don't even have any idea how 231 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,680 many people are already gone from the community because of 232 00:12:54,680 --> 00:13:05,840 non acceptance and hate. Particularly when it comes to 233 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,360 queerness, and especially in a country like India, the digital 234 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480 space is the safest space for most square people. 235 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,120 Primarily because you're surrounded by communities of 236 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,600 care that might not acknowledge your identity, that might not 237 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,000 acknowledge the specific needs you have. 238 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,440 You turn to the Internet very early on, One, to find yourself 239 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,080 and two, define sources of support. 240 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,480 So for the queer community, the Internet is not just a sort of 241 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,720 space for a sort of additive benefit that comes into their 242 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,280 life, but it's an extension of their social circle. 243 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,320 So for example, even for me, there's so many people who I 244 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,840 know what dear friends say who I first met online. 245 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,760 For so many queer people, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook 246 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,240 have been the initial germinating spaces for 247 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,920 friendships that have lasted lifetimes. 248 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,520 Particularly to ensure that there is a sense of community, 249 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,240 particularly for those folks who don't have supportive families. 250 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,640 Particularly in instances where people may not be in a large 251 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,520 city, or may not be in a space where there are a lot of 252 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,640 physical or in person queer events or queer communities, the 253 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,720 Internet becomes a source of solace. 254 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,600 And you've seen this especially after the pandemic. 255 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,480 I think the pandemic highlighted the importance of online spaces 256 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,080 as a source of community for all of us and for queer people in 257 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,800 particular. Because once we were all locked 258 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,920 down, the online space was the only safe space a lot of queer 259 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,120 people had. That's Anish Gawande explaining 260 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,800 the importance of the online world for the queer community. 261 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,920 Anish Gawande is the founder of Pink List India, the country's 262 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,200 first archive of queer friendly politicians. 263 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,240 He's also the. Director of the Dharashiko 264 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,480 Fellowship, Anish explains how the harassment of Priyanshi 265 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,800 Yadav is also a sign of how the once a relatively safe spaces 266 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,360 online are steadily eroding. He also talks about why he's 267 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,520 worried that this could bleed into the real world, and how 268 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,600 that could reverse the gains made by the queer community over 269 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,440 the years. When it comes to the abuse that. 270 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,480 Public platforms that users of public platforms face. 271 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,240 How? Different is the experience of 272 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,360 being queer and on a public platform like say, on Instagram 273 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,920 or even a Twitter. The benefits of being on it are 274 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,720 also about being open about who you are and what you stand for. 275 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,680 What is the sort of abuse that a queer person would typically 276 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,360 encounter in such spaces? So I think we've seen a pattern 277 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,800 of. Online abuse that's 278 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,920 multifaceted. I think initially there was 279 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,800 abuse that came primarily in the form of a lack of understanding 280 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,040 of queerness. It came from this understanding 281 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,200 of queerness as a Western construct, came from this sort 282 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,640 of idea that this is an import from the US and that it 283 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,160 shouldn't tarnish Indian society. 284 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,440 And it was more directed towards queerness as a whole rather than 285 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,000 towards specific identities or specific forms of queerness. 286 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,080 What you've seen in more recent years is a very specific 287 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,400 targeting of queerness. When it is presented in 288 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,000 conjunction with any other identity. 289 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,480 So you'll see that if queerness is politicized or mobilized in a 290 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,840 certain way, you get a double barrage of hate. 291 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240 So if you speak out against the government and you're queer, 292 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,120 then you're going to get abused. That's double pronged. 293 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,600 So there's this way in which that abuse has also transcended 294 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,480 and transformed in the past few years into a kind of ritual that 295 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,400 is aware of the nuances of queerness and still is rejecting 296 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,680 queerness. The main point that I think is 297 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,800 important with online abuse and queerness is that can often get 298 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,880 deeply poster right. I think these are doubts about 299 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,400 your identity that you grew up with. 300 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,359 Most people coming out face a lot of doubts around whether 301 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,280 they actually are queer, whether they can come out, whether they 302 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,960 have some form of disease. And the trolling that you 303 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,720 receive often plays into these doubts, into these fears, into 304 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,400 these apprehensions. And particularly for younger 305 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,200 queer kids, this can be especially hard. 306 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,440 Because, like I said, right the online space is the only space 307 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,840 you have to turn to for sport. And if instead of reassurance 308 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,760 and kindness and compassion, you find hate and abuse and sort of 309 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,240 bullying, you're very likely to retreat further into your shell 310 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,400 and doubt your own queerness than you would have otherwise. 311 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,800 So Shivam Bhardwan. Spoke about seeing additional 312 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,840 abuse after the Pranchu case and he said that it it it was also 313 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,960 unique that the name kept coming up much more in his comments 314 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,840 after the incident and with hit obviously directed at him. 315 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,360 Is this the typical sort of experience? 316 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,120 No, I think what you've seen in the past is. 317 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,040 Like I said, right, a disaggregated form of hatred 318 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,800 that's been spread on the Internet that often has not 319 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,240 reached the levels of toxicity that you see currently. 320 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,440 What was truly heartbreaking to see was the fact that people are 321 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,840 celebrating the death of a child. 322 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,000 And I think this is something you really haven't seen before. 323 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,680 I think you definitely witnessed the fact that people are going 324 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,200 to say that queerness is a disease that needs to be cured. 325 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,040 But there is a modicum of empathy and compassion that's 326 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:48,680 existed that I see disappearing so rapidly and so sort of 327 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,520 prolifically that it's truly scary. 328 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:58,040 Most people, including the most queer phobic of people, will 329 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:04,360 draw the line at bullying or any form of abuse that gets to a 330 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,320 point where it's going to harm a child to the point of them 331 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,720 taking their own life. I think that's something that we 332 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,120 acknowledge is bad, regardless of whether you think the child 333 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,400 is queer or not. I work in politics. 334 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,120 I've been running election campaigns for a while and along 335 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:23,120 the lines also started Pink List India to get politicians to 336 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:27,600 support LGBTQ plus rights. And I will tell you in 2020, 337 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,640 right before the pandemic, when I went to Supriya Sule, whose 338 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,560 party was at the time in power and Maharashtra to ask for sort 339 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,760 of certain. Provisions to ensure LGBTQ plus 340 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,760 rights in the state. The one provision that stuck out 341 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,680 was a helpline for queer kids, and that was a three party 342 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,800 government at the time. It was a sort of tract, 343 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,160 tractitious coalition, but the one thing that everyone could 344 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,640 agree with across the board was that regardless of your thoughts 345 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,040 on queerness, queer kids don't deserve to be bullied to a point 346 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,360 where they even think of taking their own lives. 347 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,440 So I think there's a certain level of sensibility. 348 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:13,120 Both in political discourse and online discourse that used to 349 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:18,440 exist, that is slowly, or rather very quickly disappearing, 350 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,800 especially in the online space. And I'm really hoping it doesn't 351 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,640 trickle into the political space because it has the power to 352 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,360 really dramatically undermine any progress we've made in LGBTQ 353 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,600 plus rights currently and also has the ability to reverse some 354 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,280 of that progress in a way that we've never seen before. 355 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,040 What progresses do you see being reversed by something like this? 356 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:44,640 For example, we've made remarkable progress on trans 357 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,240 rights over the past decade after the Nulsa judgment of the 358 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,320 Supreme Court. We've had self identification 359 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,480 for trans persons being recognized as a fundamental 360 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,480 right. The vitriolic abuse, which 361 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,560 actually funnily enough, is imported from the West with 362 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,440 tough discourse that you see online today, is seeking to 363 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,160 undermine that progress on trans sites and actually argue that 364 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,480 trans folks should not have the ability or opportunity to self 365 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,240 identify with the gender that they identify with. 366 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:15,480 And that's bizarre, right? Because the argument made is 367 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,960 India is a culture that's only recognized 2 genders, when in 368 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,920 fact we've recognized more than two genders since time 369 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,600 immemorial. So you're seeing some of that 370 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,000 pushback that's coming currently in the form of online trolling 371 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,840 and abuse, which has the potential to escalate and 372 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,080 reverse that drugs, right? I think you're at a moment when 373 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,600 governments are incredibly sensitive to public opinion on 374 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,280 issues that get politicized and become politically valiant. 375 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,360 I think queerness so far has been politically A valiant. 376 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,520 It's not been politically sensitive, neither has it been 377 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,400 particularly politically attractive. 378 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,040 If you see such kind of discourse increase online, if 379 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,640 you see the amount of trolling increase to a point where there 380 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,360 is a sense that actually it might yield political benefits 381 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,000 to lean into that discourse, you're going to see political 382 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,280 parties actually try and outdo each other to present themselves 383 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,880 as anti LGBTQ plus or sort of protecting family rights. 384 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,440 And I think that's not a concern I have so far. 385 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,720 But there is a worrying pattern that's emerging within online 386 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,320 discourse that's leading to a language of dehumanization. 387 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,320 I think what you're seeing today, even after the death of 388 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,160 Pranchu, is a lack of care for the death of a child that can 389 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,720 only be spurred by someone not seeing them as a child at all. 390 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,440 And I think that's truly what is worrying. 391 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 How? Safe, would you say? 392 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,760 Public facing social media spaces. 393 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,080 For miners who identify as queer presently, then you know this is 394 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,280 the challenge. I think for many miners who 395 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,240 identify as queer, the online space is the only safe space 396 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,440 that they have. Unfortunately, our platforms 397 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,360 across the board have failed miserably to protect these 398 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,760 miners online. It is the responsibility of 399 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,080 platforms to ensure that they are protected online, and 400 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,240 platforms have failed resoundingly to do so. 401 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:22,240 What's particularly concerning is that the initial focus on 402 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:27,400 moderation and the ability to ensure that hate speech of any 403 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,120 kind is not tolerated on digital platforms is fading and fading 404 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,000 quickly across the board. You're seeing social media 405 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,840 platforms throw up their hands and say we believe in free 406 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,320 speech, and everything that's said here is what would be 407 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,600 allowed elsewhere as well. Even though that's not the case. 408 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,320 You cannot say so many of the things that are being said 409 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,440 online in person today because you would be penalized either 410 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,960 socially or by the rule of law. But online, when you're an 411 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,280 anonymous troll account commenting on someone else's 412 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,760 post, you have the liberty to say what you want to say. 413 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,520 And the fact that platforms aren't taking down those 414 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,520 comments, allowing the targeted and malicious bullying and 415 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,360 harassment of individuals, is incredibly worrying. 416 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:20,760 Is the experience of being a gay male influencer a very different 417 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,200 one from any other queer influencer? 418 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,600 Is the kind of abuse different in each category? 419 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,520 Absolutely. The abuse is no longer 420 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,000 monolithic. The abuse is very nuanced, with 421 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,720 an awareness of queer identities. 422 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,920 So gay men on the Internet are going to get a lot of trolling 423 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,760 for being a feminine They're going to get a lot of trolling 424 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,120 if they present in drag. They're going to get a lot of 425 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:53,280 trolling if they engage in any form of public displays of 426 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,560 affection. Queer women are going to get the 427 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,600 same harassment that women face but with. 428 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,400 And there's a trigger warning for rape. 429 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,480 But with threats, of course, of rape or conversion rape, you're 430 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,280 going to see trans folks get the kind of turf like rhetoric 431 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,520 thrown at them which says that you don't have a gender that you 432 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,800 should. I think you're seeing a 433 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,160 disaggregation of the abuse In a way that's even more worrying, 434 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,520 because it shows that these troll accounts of whoever's 435 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:29,000 behind them are aware of what queerness is of the sort of 436 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,240 diversity of queer experiences. And despite knowing about this 437 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,960 diversity of experiences, their response to to this knowledge is 438 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,400 not one of compassion or or greater understanding, but of 439 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,200 more enhanced or more sort of targeted ritual. 440 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,760 How do you say, advise, say younger people who are in this 441 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,800 domain where they're trying to, like you said, come online 442 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,360 because it's. That safe space. 443 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,920 At the same time, it's as unsafe maybe as the real world 444 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,000 difficult question. I would say there's no perfect 445 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,440 answer currently. I think there's certainly a need 446 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,880 for platforms to take accountability in the absence of 447 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,640 which I think where people across the board need to develop 448 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,640 new platforms that allow for that sort of safety to exist. 449 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,320 In the interim, I think there's a couple of things that can be 450 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,080 done. One is using the block button 451 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,600 liberally. I think there is an assumption 452 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,720 that you have to engage with someone online because they 453 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,760 responded to you and that is absolutely not the case. 454 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:44,160 I block multiple accounts every day with Glee because what I put 455 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,840 online is for people who I want to engage with, to engage with 456 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,040 and not for the world and all in sundries. 457 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,120 So if there is going to be an acknowledgement that such a 458 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,720 public space is not going to come with the protections that 459 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,280 come with any other public space, then I'm not going to 460 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,560 have to pretend like this is my little soapbox that anyone can 461 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,120 approach and yell at me. The second thing is, by turning 462 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,120 to support from organizations that know how to do this well, I 463 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,640 would recommend Yes We Exist, which is an organization that 464 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,520 runs an Instagram page that deals with a fair bit of cyber 465 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,320 bullying and cyber abuse and they have a lot of helpful tips 466 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,160 on their website. I would also recommend Nazaria 467 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,720 QFRG, the Queer Feminist Research Group, which is an 468 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,920 organization based in Delhi, which has a helpline that young 469 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,000 queer folks can turn to, And the Disks Data Institute of Social 470 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,040 Sciences, I call helpline, which is also really useful for those 471 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,520 in acute distress. So I think telling the support 472 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,640 is incredibly important. And I think finally, the third 473 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,920 thing is that young queer people are smart, and all of us. 474 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,640 I think they've definitely figured out a way to apply 475 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,960 pressure on systems and ways that we do not know how to do as 476 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,080 well as they do. So I think mobilizing, creating 477 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,360 online communities that can stand up for you and support you 478 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,720 when such trolling begins is incredibly important. 479 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,000 And then harnessing the power of those communities to actually 480 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,440 push for greater accountability mechanisms from institutions and 481 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,640 organizations and even government bodies is quite 482 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:27,080 important. Today's episode was produced by 483 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,040 Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 484 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,400 ideas and stories that matter. Subscribe. 485 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,960 To us, we're available. On TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google 486 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,600 Podcast, and all other platforms of your choice. 487 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,880 For any news tips, e-mail us at TOI Podcast at timesinternet dot 488 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,200 in.