From India's largest Newsroom. I'm are enjoyed, and this is the
times of India podcast. They are into election mode for
2024 and unfortunately, they wrongly think that they can win
election only by polarization, which is not true.
They failed in Canada and I believe as an instrument of
Indian context I have known virtually every parameter for
last 50 years. I have been very actively
involved both as a journalist. As I student of Indian politics
and has a condition. That these things don't work
Beyond a point. So, whatever, they could gain
from this kind of polarization, they have already came.
Now, if they try to push it too far, it will be
counterproductive and disprove to be proving to be
counterproductive. That's Shahid.
Siddiqui, who is Don the hats of journalist editor and a rajasa
by a different points close to a year ago, Shahid, Siddiqui and a
group of other eminent Muslim personalities met with RSS Chief
Mohan bhagwat. At the time there was hope that
the meeting was the star. For larger dialogue to I know
Tony issues, affecting both communities a year later signs.
Indicate admits he never expected things to change this
quickly, but remains hopeful of a continuing dialogue, with the
RSS, which is the ideological Fountainhead of the BJP.
In today's episode, her in Derbyshire is in conversation
with sides in the key about the meeting with the RSS Chief and
what he believes has been achieved since then, they
discussed the worries of the Muslim Community.
And why a request for a similar meeting with the Prime Minister
remains unanswered and despite his worries about the
proliferation of inter-religious heat shield cdk explains why he
still remains hopeful about India.
Sup Cassatt sucker vikas? That is a promise that the BJP
came on in 2014. How true has the government
being to that promise? The whole country knows it.
The government knows it, the Prime Minister knows it, the BJP
knows. It, everybody knows that they
have, this is only a slogan, like the Joomla has of the past.
This is a mere Joomla. Something added to this in 2019,
Supply, which was so neither of the ishwara, is there not
because they're so soft coming here, I can't say about
everybody. There are people there are
forces in Kuwait, Got who have developed, but not everyone,
especially not the minority, especially the Muslims, you
know. It is almost a year, 10 months,
for sure. Since you met the RSS, Chief
Mohan bhagwat, essentially to address the insecurities of the
Muslim Community. But the hate speech is what is
this out Peach achieved? You would say so far, how do you
look back on the ten months of dialogue?
We went with a boy. Very positive mindset because we
believe that this country has to dial up with everybody coming
together by Building Bridges and not by creating differences.
We should focus on. What is common, what we share
with each other? Instead of you know focusing on
where we are different from each other.
And therefore, we thought that our SS is one of the most
powerful and most in strong organization in the country.
Especially among a large section of Hindus and therefore we
should approach them. We approach some challenging
wrote a letter to him and he was kind enough to give us an
appointment that we've done sup as white policies of Journalism
euthanasia myself, Mississippi Shivani, we met him.
And in a very cordial environment, we met openly,
there's nothing secret about it. We didn't want to keep it secret
at all, but we also didn't go to the media because Going to Media
only spoils things, instead of taking them forward.
He heads to apprehensions, he said that the Muslims Talk of
the heart to subtract teachers, ask a favor Muslims, you know,
believe in eating bees. That should not happen and we
assured him that so far, as we are concerned, we are none of
these but he said that usually speak to Muslim malama also
because you people don't have much of it standing and we agree
with that. We don't have any standing in
the community. We don't represent the
community, we only represent. That ourselves.
So we came back and we talked to the Muslim Allah, madad amok
islami, the limit or my in both the girls are shared Matheny and
Maulana bamboo the motherly group to Maulana, Frankie, Valli
Lucknow to not, go to Lamar the chief of Muslim personal law
board, who is no more spoke to all of them.
And they were, we were all on the same page that in India.
Indian Muslims have never believed in the heart.
What about the Pakistan said, whatever.
The let's create a band of the said, how are they have tried?
We must appreciate. And the nation must appreciate,
again Muslim that. They refused to be influenced by
these Jihadi groups and infected a lot of media and lot of people
talk of Love Jihad, Randy are we his Jaws are being thrown at us
but if we refuse to accept that because we have never believed
in TR and we don't believe in Jihad.
And the country must understand that Society must understand the
media must understand that Indian Muslims have stood up
against any kind of nonsensical, violent yard.
Only the heart we believe in is pleasing ourselves and going for
better education and creating a nation, which is Nation.
We are, everybody has equal rights, where everybody has
equal, which draws equal because and equal purity.
So what were you say? You achieved in 10 months we
knew that you will not be achieving much because these
differences have developed in centuries and especially in
recent times, it is more political than social.
I don't find these differences on the ground as much as I find
it in the politics and in the media day and night.
So the only thing we have achieved is that we are talking
and I really believe that we must always keep our windows.
Open. Even if the doors are closed,
windows should never close between people who have
differences and different viewpoints, we have been able to
give to give the message to the nation and to the RSS and to the
government that Muslim groups are all together on this, we
don't believe in Bihar. We don't believe in calling
Hindus as cafes, PR for universal law to ban cows
throttle. We are not for cow slaughter at
all. All we are totally opposed to
that. So don't blame us if something
happens, if some individuals commit, something here and beer
tune bleed the whole community. And we are also against you know
craving the community for any crime or anything committed by
an individual. The problem is that when in when
an individual who happens to be Muslims, does something the
whole Community is made to stand in the talk.
But when a any other committee person, commits a crime, its
individual crime and Sancho I love you.
Agreed with us. He said that he would also talk
to his people. He said that, at least you
should condemn some of these people who are spreading hate
politics and were crying trying to divide society and I must
appreciate that. Samsung Galaxy has from time to
time spoken against it. And even he found difficulty in
his own party and some of the more so-called liberal and
lightened hugs and supporters were very Critical of him
because they believed in eliminating Islam from the whole
world, which is absolutely ridiculous.
But some of them who are, who are, I find a highly so-called
educated and middle class people in March.
In fact, you all are written the letter to the RSS, Chief Mohan,
bhagwat, requesting him to speak more and to get the union and
state governments to file Affairs against people who were
openly speaking in very high. Three terms.
Yes. Was there any impact impact?
After that letter, there has been some movement.
The Harvard he has spoken from time to time.
I don't know how much impact it has on that ground.
What they have told us is that look, we can't influence the
government. We are a non-governmental
organization. We don't speak like that, but if
the terms are other they speak we can't do much about it.
So we request Um, at least to condemn it, at least to question
them. And now, what is happening in
uttarakhand is extremely disturbing.
It's a very small incident. I mean, trackin, Muslims are
hardly 1 and a 1 or 2 percent. Muslims are not a threat anyway
in that state at all, but to turn it into a huge issue.
I think shows the weakness of the present regimes, they seem
to be relying totally on Creating polarization, which
they did in. And filled it.
Now the same thing is being done in madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan
in. I don't know why it is being
done in who crackling, but I hope that awkwardly and Son.
Our friends in son really speak out against that and will
understand that this is not in the interest of the country.
There's some days but think about Kathy a kind of our
healthy bod Corp, a that happened brother that requires
you know, confidence in each other unless you Have
confidence, you can't have a comparison, you know, you just
said that one bag were told you that they can't influence the
government. I mean, do you really believe a
statement like that? I mean they are the ideological
Fountainhead of the bgp and why I have to leave him but I know
that they have a great influence on everybody.
Whether it is the government or if the bureaucracy or if the
police because R is Is an ideological group and that's why
we have ruined our assessment. We could have a cold the
government people. So, tell us.
Why did you approach the government further?
We see bombings come and go. RSS is their RSS will remain.
There is either, thinking is a idea when ideas change the
society changes, therefore, we are trying to interact with this
ideology and with this idea, by creating a meeting ground, and
therefore, I don't think there is Nothing we do wrong in that
and he will be able to understand it.
Visually entities teks takes time.
We never expected anything to achieve anything if next year
too, but niches are not made in just few years.
We are not here for full picture for the next election in 2024,
we are here for next three, four, five decades.
Whether we live or not be we have to create an environment
with new field in decades India. Able to come together and these
differences become irrelevant and we are able to create a
nation of Indians. Not a nation of Hindus and
Muslims and Sikhs and Christians.
So when Juan Vazquez said, let's not look for a shivling.
Under every mosque, you are must have felt quite encouraged,
right? Yes.
Hey, when you are met his
representatives in a second meeting at mr.
Jang's house, right? They did try and test the waters
by bringing up Kashi and mozzarella.
Yes, but they were not insistent on it, they just mentioned it,
they didn't bring up the issue. It was briefly mentioned, but it
was not the main issue of discussion.
And all those who are present, there was a demand islami
representative. There was a relative of Maulana
Sheikh, Mohammed Murray and others.
They were quite happy and quite Guide the discussion, we had
with the RSS leaders at the residence of mr.
Najeeb Jung, they mentioned that they seek, you may come up,
which may create problems, we said that, let the courts
decide, and that's it. We didn't go into any details
within discuss. They didn't say you have to give
or nothing of the sort, you know, you got religious Scholars
on board. Like, you were telling us to be
a part of this dialogue. They don't ask you questions.
Now, keep wherever you reached. No, no.
They they they also understand they are very reasonable people.
The impression which has been created by media is totally
false. I have known the Llama all my
life. These Kalama do understand but
they expect a transparency in our discussions with the Sun or
with any other group and that's what we hope.
Because someone is a bit unhappy, especially to people
like me who speak out because Cuz I believe that any
understanding with any adversary, it is important that
we take the people along with us.
If you are not able to take the people along with us, we are of
no use to anyone. And therefore, we must take the
confidence of the people and the confidence of the people comes
by being transparent. So I like to speak out openly
what we discussed with RSS, what we are discussing with RSS and
in the future what I believe. And I I have told my friends in
that group that we must always be very transparent and whatever
discussion we have we must come out and tell the people.
Why should we hide? Because they are not doing
something - we are not doing something against the community
against the country or against the society.
So we should be open about it and not hide their argument is
also there is also valid they say that if you come out in the
very beginning that the media tries to spoil the issues by
raising irrelevant questions, A element debates but we have to
live with it. Every government, every people
have to live with a PDF which ask questions.
Unfortunately, the media doesn't ask questions to the government.
It only ask question to People Like Us, who are trying to do
something positive, but we have to learn to live with the media
as well. You said that the problem
essentially lies in the political domain.
Yes, so maybe you should be meeting prime minister Narendra
Modi, If he meets us but we are all for it.
We have written a letter to him about two months back in April,
we wrote to him. I think it's more than that.
It's three months out and we have not received any
acknowledgement, he's very busy. He was busy in the elections.
In Karnataka. Now he will be going is going to
America, then he'll be busy in the elections in madhya Pradesh,
Rajasthan, and other places, but we we are ready to meet anyone.
Anybody for that matter of any political party of any religious
leader. And we are trying to meet other
religious leaders also, because in the Hindu Society, there are
various people who represent Hindu Society.
Shravan Dharma is not represented by any one group.
So, we want to build Bridges, and we also want to build
Bridges between within the community and with the, with the
intellectual, with the middle class because In the last few
decades. Unfortunately, there have been
more differences. Have been sharpened for no
reason at all. While what we expect the new
generation Express the 21st century.
India expects, these individuals to go into the background and we
must all be working for a better.
India, of course, Paris India, It's interesting.
It's been over two months since you wrote to the Prime Minister.
What does his silence tell you, how would you interpret the
silence? Not even an acknowledgement.
Well, I can't speak on his behalf.
I understand he's a very busy person and we are very
unimportant. Is small people.
So he naturally he won't find time for us.
But we expected at least acknowledgement which has not
come. But anyway, we are waiting for
him and we will be writing to again.
Requesting him for an appointment because we believe
that we must come together to build India and not create
problems for. We are not there to confront the
government. We are not there to confront
anybody, either the Hindu or even the Muslim leaders or any
other group. We are here to see that how can
we, you know, bring people together?
So let me ask you switch, sides. Are you expecting too much from
a party that has made? Add polarization, an election
strategy. We always expect too much from
our rulers, whether it was Congress, whether it was one
more thing or attendee or anybody.
We Indians are very hopeful people, we always expect too
much. So we are expecting too much
from him. Also now, and we have this
Indian way of thinking that it's Longo, Ethan of them will die.
So that is whatever. Hope is that we are asking for.
Thing. But just, you know, rule of law,
a treatment as a citizen, equal cities are of the contain.
That's what we are asking, not much, so even if we get a
semblance of this, we will be happy.
But there is so much to despair about Shaheen's whether it is
because - you know, convicts being garlanded fitted.
Now, orange tape seems to be becoming an issue in
Maharashtra. I mean, track on people are
waking up to eviction, notices it, I mean, even a BJP
functionality has to has had to pack his bags and live with
wrecked. It is all there, but I am a
pretty old hand and I have seen terrible times.
I've been the generosity of someone's body party for long.
There are certainly ODSP and I have, you know, raise issues
within the party. And I have seen that these
parties, never took any concrete step.
To fight these communal forces, so it's not something new for
me. Unfortunately, it's unfortunate,
but that's not something new. It has been happening for the
last 70 years, and we have learned to live with it and we
must learn to live with. It is only now that the media is
coming out with, it's only the pretty glass sitting in there,
you know, safe homes, who are realizing that, these things are
happening. So what can I say about, mr.
Modi people telling me you have to be precise.
Of that side either. You have to be again, smooth,
your form of the unfortunately, I can't be.
I have seen too much of it, and I can see that this is
happening. And for that, we have to change
the society. Just merely changing government
is not going to help, and we have done it in the past.
We have changed or made in the past, but not much has happened.
Now, we have to change the mindset of the people and
organizations like RSS or religious leaders.
Like, you know, the remote from art movement or the the guru
like SRI SRI and others who have some influence.
I'm not for or against anybody but they have to come out and we
are on our hand. We are working with our Obama
with Obama who are hard very hard liner.
We are trying to bring them on the same page in a way that they
become more open, more liberal more transparent and More For
Change. Would you say however that the
level of insecurity and the sense of marginalization, Has
increased. He has it has, it has.
Everybody knows that return in the past, they were rods.
Use rights. The thousands were killed, but
now it is. Every movement you are feeling
insecure. Children are feeling insecure
because in schools, you are being targeted.
And the main reason is the media 24/7, whether you are sitting at
the airport or you are sitting in a hotel lobby, you are
watching Muslims being demonized.
This so-called love Jihad so-called Randy, hostel called
all sorts of gas, but fortunately by and large Indian
Muslims. Except for few individuals have
never indulged in any kind of the heart.
So don't push him into this Jihad more but talking about her
24/7. If you talk of the heart 24/7,
then something terrible may happen, which we all don't want.
And and this is happening because they know it that Indian
Muslims are for peace. In their Muslims are not 40 odd.
That's why they are talking 24/7 about Gabi are constantly
because they know it that these people are not violent.
And we are telling Indian Muslims that yes, we have to
live in this country. We have to love this country.
We have to Trend up with this country unit of this country.
And we are opposed any group who stands up for Jihad.
So, tell me Shy, while you wait for a reply from the prime
minister, is there the possibility?
Off another meeting with the more language or his
Representatives. Yes.
Definitely.
We would like to continue meeting and we we are we were
happy with the baby talks went along and we appreciate their
problems. Also, you know, RSS buggy and
other leaders. Whether it is the rich Kumar or
it is Ram Lal ji occasion to apology or someone he who have
to go back to their own people and their organization.
Is a hundred year old organization.
It has its own and host its own culture, its own priorities, and
therefore it's not easy for them.
Also, we understand their problem, they understand our
problem. You must have seen that those
small time. Always, we used to come on
channels, there are less and less of them.
They are being offered double, double the money, then that was
done in the past by these channels to come.
But only few are going because we are stopping them.
We have created. Woman in the community where
these people are back wanted. All these so-called people with
beard who are not. Mulvey's put up there in the
discussion to talk - and talk dirty.
They are by courted by the community.
So changes are coming. I am believe, I believe that
after 2020 for election whosoever Wills, things will
improve because for has been has gone up to a point.
I believe RSS understand that. This polarization can work up to
a point not Beyond and if you Just rely on that.
Then it will be counterproductive.
It is being proving to be counterproductive and the world
is watching, given the toxicity, given the hate.
I mean, the increased sense of insecurity, which we discussed
earlier. How has your life been impacted
personally? My life has not been impacted
much show me. I I, but I feel sorry.
I feel anguished, I feel unhappy.
I as am I I stopped watching Be jealous.i'm, stopped appearing.
I have been asked to contest the coming groups of election.
I'm not interested because I don't feel, I don't want to get
votes in the name of community or a group, and they say that,
unless you polarize your community, you will not be able
to win. I and I prefer to lose.
So today, I am very sad but I still am hopeful.
You can't undo the evolution of a society which has taken eight
hundred years or a thousand years.
Whether it's chicken sandwich, As the world, which has
influenced Islam and Islam, which is influenced every other
religion. And it has given birth, to all
sorts of movements within our society.
Whether it's Arya samaj movement of the barometer, my movement
they have three are a result of the influence of Islamic
thought, as well. Our languages have been filled.
Our music has been filled, you can't separate the two.
It's like own In the Flesh. If you try to do that, you will
lose everything to be, must understand.
And I hope that after Maybe after damaging our society, too
much. We will understand that that
will be unfortunate but we will understand.
I have faith in this country. Our Fate in the society are
creating the majority of Hindus, Muslims Christians.
I, I don't lose faith and I have also some faith in media because
there are still people in media who are ready to stake out their
neck. In spite of the all the threats
they are facing Today's episode was produced by Jay Raj, Singh
soon. I moratti and on Vijay Singh for
a daily Spotlight. On people ideas and stories that
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