1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:16,520 Times of India podcast. Sudha Bardwaj's book, titled 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,480 From Fasiyad, recently won an award in the nonfiction 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,360 category. A while back we'd done an 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,880 interview with her. We're bringing back that episode 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:34,120 today. Mana Ki abhi tere mere armano Ki 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:42,640 Ki mat kuch bhi nahi mitti ka bhi hai Kuch mola magar in Sano 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:51,600 Ki Ki mat kuch bhi nahi in Sano Ki E jate Jab jisdin jute si ko 9 00:00:51,920 --> 00:01:01,360 ma toli na jaye Ki Bo suba kabhi tohi. 10 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,000 That's trade unionist and human rights lawyer Sudha Bhardwaj 11 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,240 singing her favorite song pinned by Sahir Ludhianvi. 12 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,920 Sudha Bhardwaj has been out of the headlines for a while, so 13 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,320 let's refresh your memory. Sudha Bhardwaj is one of the 17 14 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:21,160 people arrested in what is called the Elgar Parishad case. 15 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,280 One of those accused and arrested in the case was Jesuit 16 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,960 priest Stan Swami who died in custody in 2021. 17 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,440 The 17 people arrested in the case are accused of delivering 18 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,800 inflammatory speeches at the Elgar Parishad conclave in Pune 19 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,240 on the 31st of December in 2017. The Maharashtra police claimed 20 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,840 that the speeches triggered violence at the Bhima Koregaon 21 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,760 War Memorial, which is a significant place for the Dalit 22 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,760 community. The police claimed that the 23 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,240 Elgar Parishad event was backed by Maoists and the probe was 24 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,920 later taken up by the National Investigation Agency. 2 Hindutva 25 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,000 group leaders accused of making hate speeches before the Elgar 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Parishad event never faced any serious charges. 27 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,080 Sudha Bhardwaj was granted bail in 2021. 28 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,840 She can't talk about the specifics of the case yet, but 29 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,000 she can talk about her new book titled From Fasi Yad, My Year 30 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,120 with the Women of Yerwada, which has just been released. 31 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:17,200 The book is an account of the world of women prisoners in 32 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,560 Yerwada jail in Pune, where Bhardwaj was launched for two 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,080 years in the high security wing that is called Fasi Yad. 34 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,040 My colleague Alka Dukar caught up with her at the house in 35 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,720 Mumbai that she is required to stay in as part of the 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,840 conditions for her being granted bail, among other things. 37 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,080 Alka spoke with Sudha Bhardwaj about her time in prison, what 38 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,400 her book documents, why she's still an optimist and the 39 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,680 importance of dissidents in a democracy. 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,080 I don't know if we should congratulate you on this book 41 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,080 because, as you have named it, Farsi Yard dedicated this book 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,480 to all who are unjusticely incarcerated. 43 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,640 Do you count yourself in one of those? 44 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,680 Yes, I think I do. But I think I'm one of many. 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,520 Many people have been in Justly Incarcerated and yeah, that is 46 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,240 why the book is dedicated to them. 47 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,000 One of your bail conditions says that you must not leave Mumbai. 48 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,400 You have described this situation previously as you're 49 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,640 in exile. So would you like to elaborate 50 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:23,600 on this? How badly do you miss 51 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,200 Chhattisgarh? Actually, at a very young age, 52 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:32,840 at the age of 25 itself, I got involved with the trade union of 53 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,640 late, comrade Shankar Guhaniyogi, and ever since then 54 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,200 I have been in Chhattisgarh working with the 1st in Delhi, 55 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,720 Rajara, then in Bhilai. Then it was the trade union 56 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,400 movement itself which made me a lawyer and then I shifted to 57 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,360 Bilaspur where we had a group of lawyers called Janhit. 58 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:58,360 So my entire life has been there and my friends, my colleagues, 59 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,440 my comrades, my young associates, everybody out there. 60 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,120 So it is really exiled for me. I miss everything about 61 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,960 Chhattisgarh. Are you a true Mumbaikar now? 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,520 To be fried. Oh yes. 63 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,920 I find Mumbai still a very much working class city. 64 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,160 Even though all the mills have closed down, it still has a very 65 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,320 working class flavor about it. And now that I've got used to 66 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,840 travelling in the local trains and all that one thing, I find 67 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,640 that it's a very it's a very alive city. 68 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,280 It's a very, you know, all the time bustling, moving, and of 69 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,600 course, rents are prohibitively expensive. 70 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,360 I'm just very lucky that I have friends who are willing to allow 71 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,480 me to live in their houses, otherwise I couldn't have 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,520 afforded it. But yes, food. 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,160 Maybe you can purchase for ₹5 a meal and ₹5000 a meal. 74 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,760 Also, all kinds of people are here and the city in a sense, 75 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,880 embraces all of them. So I am also one in the crowd. 76 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,240 I feel embraced by this city. One of the things Sudha Bhardwaj 77 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880 documents in her book is being forced to trade in her sarees 78 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,080 for the salwar kurta in jail. When Alka spoke with her, she 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,920 was dressed in a blue kurta in Salwar. 80 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,520 She explains to Alka how the sari became a part of her life 81 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,400 and why she had to change what she wore in jail. 82 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,600 I used to wear Salwar Kutta in my early union days during the 83 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,320 Bhilai movement, which was the major movement of the contract 84 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,840 workers of Bhilai. So that time, during that 85 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,360 railroad Co agitation, there was a police firing, 17 people had 86 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,840 died, many people were in jail, some people were wounded, they 87 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:38,520 were in the hospital. And at that time, I used to be 88 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,760 rushing around from place to place, sometimes to the 89 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,120 hospital, sometimes to the court, sometimes to the Union 90 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,760 office. And I became very conspicuous 91 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,920 because of my Salwar kurta, which is not a very normal race 92 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,400 in Chhattisgarh, mostly grown up. 93 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,600 Women wear Saudi, I think just to, you know, be normal like 94 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,040 everybody else. In 1992, I just took a decision 95 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,520 I'll only wear Saudi and that continued till I was arrested. 96 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,440 I was surprised by the the jail not permitting T-shirts and 97 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,120 pants and so on. And later on I realized that 98 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,560 that is because the jail has a concept of being feminine and it 99 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,280 is very concerned about women who dress like men, because I 100 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:28,040 think it also has that typical stigma about lesbianism. 101 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,600 So that is the real reason and that is why they insist that 102 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,400 either you wear Salwar Kutta or you wear Saudi. 103 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,480 And because we have to wash all our clothes and Saudis too 104 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,120 difficult to do so much of washing, there's no space to dry 105 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,240 it. So yeah, so I shifted to Salwar 106 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:46,800 Kurta and I've continued with that. 107 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,400 Otherwise, for many, many years, I had been wearing Saudi. 108 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,440 Why would you name the book the the name you have? 109 00:06:54,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Given from Fancy R, this was me looking out from Fasi yard at 110 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,000 1:00 when we went to Baikala. We were in the barracks and it 111 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,640 was probably we had much more opportunity to talk and discuss 112 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,600 with other prisoners. But because there I'm more or 113 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,080 less became a lawyer, I was writing applications and all 114 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,040 that. So there's a certain ethics of 115 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,360 being a lawyer. You don't talk about your cases 116 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,240 to people. So that that's when my writing, 117 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,360 the stories about the women stopped and my notebooks were 118 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,240 only filled with, you know, CR number, police station sections 119 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,520 and what is to be written in the application and all that because 120 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,640 we were in the in the, in that single cell. 121 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,680 It would be surprising how did I get to know these stories at 122 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,920 all. And that is what I've tried to 123 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,200 explain in in the section about how this book came to be 124 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,800 written. It's when we went for Mulaka, or 125 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,680 when we went to the courts, or when we went for canteen or to 126 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,640 the hospital, or when we're queuing up to get the water. 127 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Or, you know, these were the occasions on which we would bump 128 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,160 into these women and talk to them. 129 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:04,000 So actually the sketches were written when I felt that I knew 130 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,680 enough about a person, but it would happen over many, many 131 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,240 encounters with that person and that's why there's no date or 132 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,880 it's not really a diary, its gathering that. 133 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,680 And then when I felt I knew a woman well enough, then I would 134 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,760 write about her. How did you keep your connection 135 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,840 with the outside world when you were in? 136 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,840 Prison as a prisoner under the UAPA, we have restrictions on 137 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,760 who can come and meet us, so it is only either our lawyers or 138 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,039 blood relatives. They're very strict about that. 139 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,400 For example, people from my union could not come, so it 140 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,000 would be just lawyers and my daughter, basically because I 141 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,880 don't have nobody else in my family really. 142 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,640 But yeah, when we went to the court, many people would come to 143 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,000 the court to meet us, but they would be restricted. 144 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,200 They would not be allowed to talk to us. 145 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,240 They were kept at a distance. We actually got a remarkable 146 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,760 number of letters and postcards in solidarity from all over the 147 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,160 world. But we were not given most of 148 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,080 them because all letters which go to the jail are censored. 149 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,480 So actually it takes about a week within the jail for those 150 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,880 letters to be read and then passed on to us. 151 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,240 And most of these, because they'd say, who are these 152 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:16,800 people? Unknown people are writing to 153 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,680 them. In Yedvada, I hear that many 154 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,800 people wrote to me on my birthday, but I never got those 155 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,320 letters. But in Baikala we were given 156 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,400 those letters and that was a beautiful thing. 157 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,400 And otherwise of course newspapers. 158 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,240 When we were in Yedvada between Professor Sen and myself, we 159 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,480 would take The Indian Express in The Hindu and in Baikala we 160 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,440 would also take Mumbai Mirror. We really missed it when it 161 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,800 went. That was one of our favorite 162 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,080 newspapers. Of course in Baikala when we 163 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,960 were in the barrack then there was the television also. 164 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,040 But you know how it is the remote of the of the TV is with 165 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,920 the Kamvali. So she is the one who decides 166 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,800 which Nagin serial we have to see and which SAS bow serial we 167 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,440 have to see sometimes. You know when there will be tea 168 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:06,760 time. Please, please, please 5 169 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,400 hundreds NDTV Dekhna Dhona and then put on for the to see what 170 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,000 is the use of the farmer's agitation or whatever it is. 171 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,200 So that's how we we kept ourselves in touch with the 172 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,840 world. True stories. 173 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,800 You have portrayed life inside the prison and the harsh 174 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,400 realities which we are aware of. But more details. 175 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,920 But tell me about yourself. How was your journey and how 176 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,440 were your days inside prison? Did you ever lose hope? 177 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,240 How did you manage your stress when bail was rejected? 178 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,080 I think that is just, that is me as a personality, that right 179 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,760 from my young days and from the age of 25 or so, I've always 180 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,640 worked in collectives. So I I worked with the trade 181 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,520 union and in a collective of lawyers in the UCL, always with 182 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,920 groups and always with with a lot of people. 183 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:07,920 So it was very, it was a very isolating experience to be in 184 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,840 the cell. And I think actually my way of 185 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,080 getting over what you're saying that, you know, how did you feel 186 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,760 my way of getting over was writing these stories. 187 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,720 I mean, this was really cathartic for me that I was 188 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,640 trying to make sense. I was trying to reach out to 189 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,840 these women without being able to really reach out to them. 190 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,960 It is not that it was an unthinkable thing that happened 191 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,320 to me, but of course when it happens, it is shocking 192 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,960 initially. But I think the positive thing 193 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,320 about me is that I am very conscious that even in that 194 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,400 situation we were still much more privileged than most of the 195 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,320 women around us. Many of them were very poor, a 196 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,000 lot of them were uneducated, some of them were completely 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,640 illiterate. Many of them had been abandoned 198 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,360 by their families. They didn't have proper lawyers. 199 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,800 They didn't know what was the condition of their case. 200 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,120 And in Baikala, I had no time. Once they got to know that, you 201 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,120 know, aunty is a lawyer and aunty is ready to help and ready 202 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,400 to write the applications in triplicate in Hindi. 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,800 I didn't know that much. I didn't know Marathi so I'd 204 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,640 write it in Hindi for them. And also that aunty doesn't tell 205 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,440 stories but Ted doesn't tell tales. 206 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,400 She doesn't gossip about the case. 207 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,040 She doesn't talk about 1 prisoner to another prisoner. 208 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,080 So when they got this idea about me, they started lining up. 209 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,400 Aunty made a please charge sheet Pardo you know please write this 210 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,680 application for me. I would be busy sometime till 211 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,520 12:00 at night. I was interacting the 212 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:47,720 applications, of course, the disappointment about bail and 213 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,960 all that in a way. When I came into jail, I told 214 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,200 myself, look, one has to just trust on friends outside that 215 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,120 they will get get me the best possible legal defense and one 216 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,320 just has to wait. So in that sense, I sort of 217 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:09,120 steeled myself for a long stay and that is why I didn't have to 218 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,320 suffer so much when bail was rejected so many times. 219 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,400 And that was deliberate. But yes, I really missed my 220 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,840 daughter and I think my daughter really missed me. 221 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,440 I had come to Delhi thinking I need to give time and place to 222 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,200 my daughter. It's a critical time in her 223 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,160 career. She needs some support. 224 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,080 I need to earn something also to put her through college. 225 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,400 So it's ironical that that was the time I was picked up. 226 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,200 So at a time when I was acutely aware that I need to give her 227 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,920 time, that is exactly the time when I was taken away from her. 228 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,320 So it was a bad time for her. When Sudha Bhardwaj was released 229 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,120 on bail, one of the photos released by a friend on social 230 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,360 media showed her inside a car, smiling broadly at the camera. 231 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:56,840 It's a smile that pops up often during the interview as well. 232 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,560 Alka asked her about why even photos taken of her while she 233 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:03,000 was being arrested captured her smiling. 234 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,520 When the situation is very bizarre, when you don't even 235 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,640 understand, you know, why are you being picked up? 236 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,160 What is happening with you? Why is this happening with you? 237 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,800 I think my reaction is to laugh. What else can you do? 238 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,880 Even just as to smile and bear it? 239 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,800 And that is what I did. There were very rare occasions 240 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,680 when I would feel very bad. Most of the time when I got 241 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,680 letters from my daughter, I would feel very bad because the 242 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,440 letters were full of her sadness or loneliness difficulties that 243 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,080 she was having, and I knew that by the time I write the reply to 244 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,040 her, that moment will have come and gone. 245 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,360 I'm not able to comfort her. It was only on very few 246 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,880 occasions that that would happen and otherwise I would keep 247 00:14:52,880 --> 00:15:03,520 myself busy. We're back in conversation with 248 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,840 trade unionist and human rights lawyer Sudha Bhardwaj, who has 249 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,600 just released a book called From FASI Yard. 250 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,600 In this segment, Alka speaks to Sudha Bhardwaj about her entry 251 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,600 into trade unionism, what drives her activism, and what fuels her 252 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,800 hope that she will get justice one day. 253 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,120 So you were born in USA, you spent your primary school days 254 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,320 in England, grown up in JNU campus and then studied at IIT 255 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,960 Kanpur before pursuing law degree. 256 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,640 How did your educational journey impacted your? 257 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,400 Personality. Apart from mathematics, I also 258 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,840 loved history. I loved literature, particularly 259 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,040 history of the Freedom struggle. I'm extremely interested in and 260 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,920 that passion remains with me. The rigorous science background 261 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,360 which I the study, which I did in IIT Kanpur for a mathematics 262 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,080 degree, I think helped me in a way logic and law go well 263 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,280 together. I became a lawyer only much 264 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,560 later, at the age of 40 or so, and that was because my union 265 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,720 needed a lawyer, and it's difficult for workers to afford 266 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,880 a lawyer. But what helped me the most was 267 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:17,200 being with people. What you learn from being there, 268 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,800 from living with people, from struggling with people. 269 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,680 It is when you try to change something that you understand 270 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,560 most about it. That's when you you really 271 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,840 understand how things work. The theory was important, but 272 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,880 the practice was far more important. 273 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Highly educated person like you could have got into any foreign 274 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,800 university and focused on personal financial growth. 275 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,680 Why did you become a human rights activist or trade 276 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,840 unionist? You are mentioned in the book 277 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,600 that your parents return to India in response to the appeals 278 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,520 made for nation building efforts. 279 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,120 Do you have the satisfaction of continuing their legacy? 280 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,800 How did I come to those choices? I mean, it happened so gradually 281 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,080 and naturally that I it's difficult for me to really point 282 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,760 out exactly how and when. My parents also took choices of 283 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,440 this guy and my mother chose to return from Cambridge, chose to 284 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,839 come and set up a Centre for Economic Studies and Planning. 285 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,839 It was a centre of excellence within the the JNU became one of 286 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,880 the most celebrated departments of economics in history. 287 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,640 In in in political science and economics. 288 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:31,040 They were really very the original minds working there in 289 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,120 in that university. So I think all that definitely 290 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,920 had an impact when I started interacting with the working 291 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,680 class. That is where I think the whole 292 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,720 shift from an academic or intellectual profession to 293 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,280 deciding to go with the people's movement, go with the union, 294 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,440 that I think that decision came to me pretty early. 295 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,920 It came to me during my my period in of study in IIT Kanpur 296 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,520 around the end of that. 8384 was the time when the Asiad was 297 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,200 happening and all those construction work was happening 298 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,360 in Delhi. And all these labourers were 299 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,560 being brought from Rajasthan, from Chhattisgarh, from the poor 300 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,840 rural areas, from the hinterland and being brought to construct 301 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,080 all these stadia and flyovers and all that. 302 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,920 There's a transformation in in Delhi because of the virtually 303 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,680 bonded labor conditions of those workers. 304 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,120 And I think that was when I decided that, you know, I have 305 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,680 to pick my lot in win them and and it has to be a whole time 306 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,600 thing. It can't be a part time thing. 307 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,040 It has to be whole time. And then I was lucky enough that 308 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,120 we got introduced to Shankar Guhan Yogi. 309 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,480 And then when I went to Delhi, Rajaratho, I was completely 310 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,480 floored by it. And that that union, it was such 311 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,520 a experience being part of it. It was like sitting in the lap 312 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,680 of the people. It was a bustling place and so 313 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,360 many experiments were being carried out and people were so 314 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,960 enthusiastic about it. And there there was a hospital, 315 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,320 there was schools being run by the union, there was the anti 316 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,160 alcohol movement and all that. And then gradually, when it came 317 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,240 to the Bhilai movement, then Neogi suggested that we should 318 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,320 get involved in the trade union itself. 319 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,920 Initially I thought that I will go and teach in the school there 320 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,360 and so on, But then I became part of the union. 321 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:29,480 And then later the union workers told me to become a lawyer. 322 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,520 So I became a lawyer. Did you ever regret renouncing 323 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,960 American citizenship? Never. 324 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,640 Not for a moment. Never. 325 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,680 See, I am very much, very much an Indian. 326 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,480 My parents were Indian and very much an Indian. 327 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,360 And from becoming an urban Indian, I wouldn't say I have 328 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,200 become a rural Indian. I have become very much a part 329 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:58,040 of Chhattisgarh and of of of that community of workers and I 330 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,760 have interacted with workers and farmers and Adivasis from that 331 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,920 area. I I consider myself completely 332 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,920 Chhattisgarhi. So what is the need to go to 333 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,080 America or anywhere else? Do you hold any passport now? 334 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,080 No. Ever since I renounced my 335 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,800 citizenship, I never got a passport made. 336 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,360 I didn't bother to get a passport made. 337 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,800 I asked this question because we know that the numbers of people 338 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,400 renouncing Indian citizenship is only growing every year today. 339 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,800 Be part of nation building efforts or not? 340 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,440 I don't know is it difficult for me. 341 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,800 I mean, these are personal choices, but I believe that 342 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:43,360 building the nation is not just the growth concept which is 343 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,880 given that you know, the corporates are making a lot of 344 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,720 money, but the actual living conditions of people is getting 345 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,720 more and more miserable. That is not my idea of 346 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,680 development or my idea of growth. 347 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,760 My idea of growth and development is when peoples 348 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,360 lives become better, when they have a secure livelihood, when 349 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,320 they have a decent house to live in, when the children can go to 350 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,080 school, they have decent medical facilities. 351 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,680 When we are able to protect the environment, we we at least have 352 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,840 clean water and clean air. So I think those things are 353 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,640 worth fighting for and working for. 354 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,920 And and this is my country, I I have to work and fight here. 355 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,880 So you started your first formal job at the age of 58. 356 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,200 It went on for a couple of years and then three years in prison. 357 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:35,640 Did you try to get employment after you released on bail? 358 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,320 Well, it was at the age of 58 and I was only lucky enough to 359 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,960 teach for a year. I love teaching in the National 360 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,800 Law University. I was fortunate enough to teach 361 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,280 there and I had some marvellous students and I thoroughly 362 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,760 enjoyed teaching there. In fact, I had been given an 363 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,320 extension, so I would have probably taught for another year 364 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,480 at least had I not been arrested after coming out. 365 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,080 I have really not tried for a formal employment because I am 366 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,200 quite aware that it will be very difficult for any university or 367 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,920 any institution to take me up as an employee because of this case 368 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,640 and so on. I'm very lucky that I'm a lawyer 369 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,400 and Lloyd is an independent intellectual in that sense and 370 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,560 they're sort of self-employed at the moment. 371 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,160 Basically it is unions which are supporting me. 372 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,760 I do legal cases for them and I'm lucky enough to be 373 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,920 associated with the senior advocate for whom I'm able to 374 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:39,200 draft cases and so on. So basically it is my legal work 375 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,160 which sustains me. A person like you has social 376 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,520 capital, but general assumptions or biases are that human 377 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,760 activists like you get a lot of foreign. 378 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,600 Funding. Well, I think somebody just 379 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,640 needs to look at my bank account and they get to know that the 380 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,480 only regular money which came in was when I taught for that one 381 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,520 year. And no, I have never been funded 382 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,600 by anybody before. It was my union which supported 383 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,800 me throughout my years in Chhattisgarh later on, To some 384 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,080 extent, yes. My legal work. 385 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,240 I never earned money. I earned a lot of friends. 386 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,920 I think that is what I really earned and that is what has 387 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,960 helped me instead. I mean, that is why I'm 388 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,480 surviving today. I think again, not because of 389 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,960 money, but because of friends. You were saying that when you 390 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:33,360 walked out of jail you had nothing in your bank account. 391 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:34,960 Absolutely. I had nothing. 392 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,200 That's absolutely correct. You have called yourself a 393 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,160 constitution abiding person, but do you feel that people like you 394 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,760 were looked up as dissidents in current time? 395 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,760 See, being a dissident is not being anti democratic. 396 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,440 A democracy demands dissidents of certain kind. 397 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,840 For example, a democracy requires a Free Press, and the 398 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,720 Free Press is a critical press. Democracy demands that there 399 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:14,240 should be a an opposition. Without an opposition, you can't 400 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,800 have a democracy. So certain kinds of dissidents 401 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,360 are built into democracy. And I think as a lawyer, as a 402 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,880 trade unionist, as a human rights activist, it's perfectly 403 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840 constitutional to be a dissident in that form. 404 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:37,000 In fact, it's required in order that you actually have a, you 405 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:43,240 know, living, growing democracy. So for you, what is the true 406 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,920 meaning of freedom? I think the true meaning of 407 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:53,840 freedom is to be able to what one thinks is right, to be able 408 00:24:53,840 --> 00:25:02,280 to be with people and what I've done all my life, which is be 409 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,560 with people, be along with them in their fight to have a better 410 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,000 society. That is my greatest freedom 411 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,360 within whatever limitations. I mean, I have to be here in 412 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,920 Mumbai and I can't go back to the place of my work. 413 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,680 That's why I call it an exile. But Despite that, I would say 414 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,480 within my restrictions, I'm still continuing with my life in 415 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,240 the same way. How do you and your daughter 416 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,920 prepare for the future? Being lodged inside the jail one 417 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,960 more time cannot be ruled out. Right. 418 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,840 I think this is the reality that we have to face. 419 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,120 I mean I am still only out on bail. 420 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:47,200 The trial is extending ahead of us, though I believe that I will 421 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,680 be acquitted, but trial is yet to happen and the the judgment 422 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,400 is yet to be passed. Do you ever discuss this 423 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,520 possibility? My daughter doesn't like 424 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,720 discussing it and I quite see why. 425 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,400 I just hope that I get the time at least to help her stand on 426 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,800 her own feet before such an eventuality comes. 427 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,520 And I also hope that we will all be acquitted of this case. 428 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,880 Do you believe that you will get justice from the system? 429 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,000 I think justice and equality are two things which are very innate 430 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,480 to the human being. Even if they're two very small 431 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,080 children and you give one child one roti, give another child 2 432 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,480 rotis, the child with one roti will throw away that one roti 433 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,160 and say you give me just like that person. 434 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,160 So the sense of equality and justice is very deep inside us, 435 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:49,360 and I believe that that cannot be suppressed for long, even if 436 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:54,000 for some time in a system it appears that these these very 437 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,560 basic, fundamental emotions are being suppressed. 438 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,720 It cannot go on forever. No kind of suppression, no kind 439 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,080 of tyranny can last forever. It's not possible. 440 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,280 So you are an optimist and. Very much I believe in, in 441 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,240 humanity, I believe in people, and I think they're powerful 442 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,160 enough sometime or the other to make those changes. 443 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 444 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,960 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 445 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,440 subscribe to us. We are available on TOI, 446 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,360 Spotify, Apple, Google, Podcast and all other platforms of your 447 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,640 choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 448 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,440 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot in.