1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:29,240 Times of India podcast. Or transparency or political 3 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,280 party could be a declaration yog. 4 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:48,400 Electoral bond was former. Finance Minister Arun Jaitley 5 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,120 explaining in 2018. Why the electoral bond scheme 6 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,120 would clean up political funding in the country and bring in 7 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,200 greater transparency. Unfortunately, that hasn't 8 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,960 happened. And that's why A5 Judge Bench of 9 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,920 the Supreme Court is hearing arguments on whether the scheme 10 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,600 should be allowed to stand at all. 11 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,520 Retired Major General Anil Verma is the head of the Association 12 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,240 for Democratic Reforms, or ADR, which is one of the petitioners 13 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,680 that has challenged this scheme. In today's episode, he explains 14 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,280 why the electoral bond scheme is so biased in favor of certain 15 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,440 parties. He also explains why we should 16 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,720 know who buys electoral bonds and whether there are possible 17 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,000 alternatives to the existing system. 18 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,520 But first, let's look at what electoral bonds were created to 19 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,440 replace. Anil Verma says that despite the 20 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,200 perception that electoral bonds are the only way to give 21 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,280 political donations, the old ways still exist. 22 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,680 So the electoral bond system is just the latest way for people 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,600 to donate money to political parties anonymously. 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,880 All the other systems which were being used earlier are still 25 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,960 there and that is direct donations by anybody, 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,600 individual, company trust or any group. 27 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:09,520 So the basic donations used to be by means of cash, by means of 28 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:17,720 online donations, through the banks, by checks, by drafts, by 29 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,600 D collections, then sale of coupons, when some of the 30 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,760 national parties do that in a big way. 31 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:31,040 And these are basically the systems which are there. 32 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,120 At ADR you have documented this over years and I remember 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,240 reports that would say that that the BSP would say get donations 34 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,800 of 99,999 and never 20,000 so that they would not have to 35 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,640 disclose the donors. How transparent was this system? 36 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,680 As it stood. Even then, bulk of the donations 37 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,560 used to be from unknown sources. This percentage has been varying 38 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:02,600 like about 8 to 10 years back when I joined ADRS and then it 39 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,240 used to be almost 70 to 75% from unknown sources. 40 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:12,480 We still include electoral bonds also in the unknown sources 41 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,520 component by the way. So even now it is in the range 42 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,400 of 60 to 65% from unknown sources. 43 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,040 The rest of the thing which is from the known sources is as per 44 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,680 the law, any donation to political parties which is 45 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,520 ₹20,000 and above has to be declared. 46 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,840 So below that it it is not supposed to be declared how much 47 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,960 they are getting in the form of cash and other things. 48 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,720 One really speaking doesn't know. 49 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,160 Before the creation of the electoral bond system, a popular 50 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,720 way for corporate entities to make payments to political 51 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,920 parties was through electoral trust. 52 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,880 So corporates like the Tatas and Bharti Group had these electoral 53 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,560 trusts which would make donations to political parties. 54 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,280 In 2014, the Election Commission told these trusts to make the 55 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,080 details of these donations public. 56 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,160 These trusts would also often donate to both the opposition 57 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,480 and ruling parties to ensure a somewhat level playing field. 58 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,920 But after the electoral bond scheme, Anil Varma says that 59 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,720 these trusts are now donating far less funds. 60 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,240 So I think there are 1516 of them in the country as of now 61 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,280 and they have a system wherein anybody, any institution, any 62 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,760 individual, any company can donate to these electoral trusts 63 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,520 and 99% of that donation is supposed to be transferred to 64 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,760 the political party for which it is meant. 65 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:39,520 Now in this they're supposed to disclose everything, the mode of 66 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,240 donation, who is the donor, which bank, what form and all 67 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,560 that. What I have noticed is that the 68 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,640 amount which used to be transferred to the electoral 69 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,520 trusts has drastically reduced now. 70 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,680 Over these last 2-3 years, since the time the electoral bond 71 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,000 scheme was introduced, because why would the corporates want 72 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,480 their attention to be disclosed in the electoral trust system? 73 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,200 Then they can get away with it in the electoral bond system. 74 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,600 Moving on to the electoral bond scheme itself. 75 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,920 Could you? Explain for somebody who's 76 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:18,320 trying to understand now, What is it about the electoral bond 77 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,080 system that makes it so opaque to public scrutiny? 78 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:26,120 The government says that the electoral bond scheme is through 79 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,000 the banks. Therefore the KYC is known. 80 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,680 The whole process goes through a bank because this is like a 81 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,760 bearer bond. Anybody can buy it, any 82 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,560 individual, corporate or so, and then they can deposit in 83 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,240 whichever political party is account that they wish to. 84 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:43,680 So the whole thing is through the bank. 85 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,360 That part is agreed. But The thing is that when the 86 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,040 electoral bond scheme was introduced by the government. 87 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,640 All the major acts, that is the Reserve Bank of India, the 88 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:02,360 Income Tax Act, the Companies Act and the RPA 1951. 89 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:08,160 All these acts were amended. The identity of the donor is not 90 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,880 known to anybody. Only the State Bank of India 91 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,560 knows because these bonds are dealt by them. 92 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,320 So obviously the State Bank of India knows. 93 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,360 The government also knows. And if they wish to know which 94 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,080 party has got how much money from which donor, it's very easy 95 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,760 for them to find out. There were many objections to 96 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,880 the scheme at the very outset, but they were also set aside in 97 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,800 favor of the scheme, which was pushed through Parliament in 98 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,040 such a way that the lawmakers in Rajya Sabha never even debated 99 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,960 the issue. When this scheme was being 100 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,520 introduced and various stakeholders were asked to 101 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,920 comment on it, please take your mind back to what the Reserve 102 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Bank of India said and the Election Commission of India 103 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,480 said and see the various reports of the Law Commission. 104 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,320 But I'll just elaborate a little bit on the objections of the 105 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:06,440 RBIRBI had very clearly said that this will open the doors of 106 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:12,760 illicit funding. We all know about companies 107 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,600 which are illegal and they are formed to convert black money 108 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,760 into white. So how difficult is it to route 109 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,440 the money through banking channels? 110 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,840 It is not difficult at all. Foreign funding is not permitted 111 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,120 for the political parties. By amending the FCRA, etcetera. 112 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,160 Now, how do we know that the funding is not coming from 113 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,040 foreign sources and that our elections are not being affected 114 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,640 by that? Election Commission of India had 115 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,840 also raised similar objections to the scheme. 116 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,120 They changed their stand subsequently when the case came 117 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,160 up for hearing in 2019. That's a different matter. 118 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,600 But initially they had a lot of reservations about this scheme, 119 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,440 but all those were just overlooked by the government and 120 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,240 it was pushed through the parliament. 121 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,960 Anil Varma says that despite the claims of the government, the 122 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,080 bond scheme is hardly transparent. 123 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,160 In theory, only the central government and the State Bank of 124 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,360 India know who has bought the bonds and for whom. 125 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,680 But he says the public also very much has a right to know. 126 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,240 It's not just the laws that were amended to ensure that the 127 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:22,920 anonymity of donors was maintained. 128 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,600 Anil Verma says that multiple institutions that ideally should 129 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,760 have batted for greater transparency have reversed their 130 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,919 stand over the years. The SBI says KYC, details of 131 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:39,280 donors are confidential. December 20, somebody filed this 132 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,039 thing that you know, give us the details of the donors of the 133 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:44,039 electoral bonds to the political party. 134 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,960 In December 20, the CIC, the chief central Information 135 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Commission, dismissed this appeal. 136 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,440 And they said that there was no larger public interest which was 137 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,160 involved and the applicant was not justified in interfering 138 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,160 with the right to privacy of the donors. 139 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,080 So far, the Supreme Court of India has also refused to stay 140 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,440 the sale of electoral bond despite repeated submissions and 141 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,160 requests for hearing on the matter. 142 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,560 And I think we have filed up to 8 or 9. 143 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,960 Appeals with the Supreme Court to hear the matter and you 144 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,920 finally it is being heard. CI CS decision of December 20 is 145 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,320 completely opposite to its decision of 2008 and 2013. 146 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:32,240 In June 2013, again on ADR petition, the CICI declared that 147 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,720 political parties are public authorities, but now it is. 148 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,480 Change the thing. So while the disclosure of the 149 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,120 identity of a donor makes contribution by electoral bonds 150 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:49,240 is not mandated by law due to the 17 amendments, the efficacy 151 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,080 of RTI Act two in cutting out such information has been 152 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,640 compromised. Now the decision of the CIC and 153 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,800 the reluctance of the Supreme Court. 154 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,840 Convey that there is no public interest in revealing details of 155 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,120 donors donating electoral bond. Any apprehensions about illicit 156 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,400 political funding are totally misconceived. 157 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,680 This isn't the first time that the Supreme Court or the Chief 158 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:15,720 Justice of India is hearing a challenge to the electoral bond 159 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,400 scheme. In 2021, the Supreme Court, 160 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,080 headed by Chief Justice SA Bob Day, told parties to give 161 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,080 details of electoral bonds to the Election Commission. 162 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,120 I asked Anil Varma what happened after that. 163 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,960 Election Commission has the data in the sense that they have 164 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,200 these contribution and donation reports, but the amount who is 165 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,920 donating and all I don't think they have that information is 166 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,680 only with the State Bank of and of course the central 167 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:45,360 government. The court also said that, you 168 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,400 know, it's very easy to sort of correlate the two and you know, 169 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,240 anyone who really wants to can do it. 170 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,000 So what is the need? There has been a little bit of 171 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,200 reluctance on the part of Supreme Court to hear this 172 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,320 electoral bonds case because it is a very sensitive case. 173 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,320 Thousands of crores of rupees of donations are coming in through 174 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,040 this thing and all the parties are involved, All of them are 175 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,760 recipients. I think that is why the Supreme 176 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,720 Court is also treading very carefully in this, though at 177 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,000 that time, the bench said. That it's a very weighty matter, 178 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,600 grave issue requires great deliberation and all that. 179 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,280 But they didn't do anything after that when the political 180 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,920 party submitted everything in a sealed porn. 181 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,280 And that was the end of the story. 182 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,000 It all went into a deep freezer. In his first statement to the 183 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Supreme Court before the hearing of the case started. 184 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:41,040 India's Attorney General R Venkataramani submitted that 185 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,160 citizens do not have a right to know the political funding 186 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,880 through the electoral bonds. Under the constitutionally 187 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,880 guaranteed right to freedom of expression and speech. 188 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,800 Venkataramani argued that they can be no general right to know 189 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,800 anything and everything without being subjected to reasonable 190 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,440 restrictions. AD Rs Anil Verma does not agree 191 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,200 and says it really raises the question of whether political 192 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,560 parties are answerable to the people or not. 193 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,840 More importantly, given the money paid by the nation's 194 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,800 citizens are being used to fund the system, he says. 195 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,560 We are entitled to greater transparency. 196 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,640 Ironically, the printing of these bonds and the SBI State 197 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Bank of India's Commission for facilitating the sale and 198 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,520 purchase of the bonds is paid from the taxpayers money by the 199 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,880 Central now given that the people's money is being used to 200 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,920 give benefit to political parties. 201 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,400 It again raises the question whether or not the political 202 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,960 parties are answerable or accountable to the people. 203 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,680 Our standard is that the citizens have a right to know 204 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,520 where the political parties are raising funds in a legitimate 205 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,000 manner and not using the electoral bond scheme just to 206 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,640 fill their coppers, and the public interest should outweigh 207 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,280 the claims preventing such crucial information from being 208 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,720 accessible. It also needs to be emphasized. 209 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,120 That political parties are operating in public domain and 210 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,080 transparency in their working and financial operation is 211 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,120 essential for citizenry to access, for exercising an 212 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,840 independent and informed choice. Therefore, this argument, which 213 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,760 the Attorney General has given it, doesn't hold much water. 214 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,240 I mean, they say that the public doesn't have the right to know. 215 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Basically, it's your money paid as various taxes that's paying 216 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,800 for the electoral bonds, and yet you can't know who's buying the 217 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,320 electoral bonds. But the central government knows 218 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,400 who's paid the money and who's received it. 219 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,840 It can make sure that no illegal funds are in the political 220 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,080 funding system. Shouldn't that be enough? 221 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,840 Well, for one, it implies that only one party, the one in power 222 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,760 in the central government, can know who's donating to whom. 223 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,760 This, in turn, could mean donors to other political parties could 224 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,320 be targeted. But more importantly, at a time 225 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,920 when industrial houses are accused of getting undue favors 226 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,200 from governments, AD Rs Anil Verma explains why it isn't 227 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,120 enough for just the central government to know who the 228 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,760 donors are, how much they're giving, and to whom. 229 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,680 The main thing is tell who are the donors. 230 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,640 That is all because these bonds are sold in the denominations of 231 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,120 1,10,00,000, one lakh and 10,000 and so on. 232 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,480 Bulk of the donations are in the 1,00,00,000 denomination. 233 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,400 So who's doing that? It is very obvious that it is 234 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,800 the corporates who are doing it. If we want our policies and 235 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,880 systems and everything to be made by some corporates who have 236 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:47,000 a quid pro quo arrangement with the political parties, then that 237 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,840 is how the democracy will run. But is that really the way we 238 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,880 want things to go? At least we don't think so as it 239 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,440 stands. A total of 24,000 electoral 240 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,880 bonds have been sold so far and they're worth 13,700 crore 241 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,080 rupees. This is between 2000 18 and July 242 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,720 2023. A majority of the electoral 243 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,880 bonds bought, which is over 50%. Were worth over ₹1,00,00,000. 244 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Anil Verma says that as it stands. 245 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,960 Parties in power, within the central government or in states 246 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,840 benefit the most. From the electoral bond scheme, 247 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,800 he explains why. In two thousand 2122, the share 248 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,040 of electoral bonds of the total income of eight national parties 249 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:40,920 from unknown sources was 83%. So 83% from electoral bonds 250 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,560 only. It has become the preferred 251 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,400 thing. From our assessment, it is 252 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,560 common practice that whichever party is likely to win elections 253 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,920 gets more funding from the corporates. 254 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,160 Especially if you analyze the electoral trust scheme, you'll 255 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:02,200 find that some of the trusts they are donating to both the 256 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,120 major parties. To a larger extent to BJP, to a 257 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,240 lesser extent to Congress, because for the simple reason 258 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,320 that BJP is in power. So if tomorrow some other party 259 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,400 wins the election, the corporates will start donating 260 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,280 more to them. Even now, some of the parties 261 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,920 say that we are opposed to the electoral bond scheme just 262 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,560 because they are from the opposition now. 263 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,600 But they are all receiving funds from electoral bonds. 264 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,120 If they are opposed to it, then why are they receiving it? 265 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,880 And they're receiving a good amount, substantial amount. 266 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,120 Even the regional parties are receiving substantial amount. 267 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,920 So there is a bit of a duplicity and hypocrisy in this whole 268 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,480 thing. You're also saying that 269 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,160 basically this system as it stands would favour A ruling 270 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:50,840 party, not necessarily the central one. 271 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,480 But even at the state level it would favour A ruling party 272 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,840 rather than non ruling party. Yes, yes. 273 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,200 We have carried out a study amongst the regional parties or 274 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,760 this thing. TMC has got the maximum amount 275 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,960 of money from electoral bonds. Similarly, their TTP has got. 276 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,640 Similarly, in Tamil Nadu, DMK has got, in Orissa BJD has got 277 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,319 and at the central level, BJP has got. 278 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,400 So it is a clear indication that ruling parties are getting 279 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,960 electoral bonds, not surprisingly. 280 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,440 The BJP, which introduced the scheme, has got. 281 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,720 The most money till. Date through the Electoral Bond 282 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,240 scheme. It has received over 5, 1000 283 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,760 crore rupees. So far, to put that amount in 284 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,040 perspective, 5000 crore rupees was the amount set aside. 285 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,240 To give every 15 to 17 year old in the country and every senior 286 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,800 citizen in the country. Doses of COVID-19 vaccine in 287 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,600 2022, in comparison the only other national. 288 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,960 Party that comes close to the BJP is the Congress with just 289 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,520 under 1000 crore rupees in the same period. 290 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,400 Anil Verma says one thing this difference in funding does is it 291 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,280 ensures that some parties have a lot of money to spend on an 292 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,360 election campaign while the others don't. 293 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,400 This also means that if you're deciding to contest elections, 294 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,200 you'd. Need a lot more money just to 295 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,640 compete, which in turn eliminates the rise of 296 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,400 candidates not from the biggest. Political parties. 297 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,680 So the stark difference in the share of donations coming to 298 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,000 national parties reflects poorly on the level playing field and 299 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,960 fairness. The direct corporate donation 300 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,120 declared by BJP are at least three to four times more than 301 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,160 the total corporate donations of all the other national parties. 302 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:38,880 In financial year 1718, it was more than 18 times that of all 303 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,680 the other national parties, YSRC. 304 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:57,680 An increase of 4906%, JDU 1605%, TRS 813% and BJD 104%. 305 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,880 Now you just see this rise from corporate donations. 306 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,920 It's all because of the electoral mode, so the whitening 307 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,280 gap. Between the funds which have 308 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,200 been declared by the various political parties is more grave 309 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,480 when the figures are compared between the national and the 310 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,920 regional parties. The 2017 reforms could not 311 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,760 address the issue of lack of level playing field and unequal 312 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,920 access to resources amongst the recognized political parties. 313 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,960 The inequity that we observe here is not marginal. 314 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,800 But significant enough to pose a threat to the ideals of 315 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,000 democracy. This also discourages 316 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,320 meritorious candidates, especially those from the 317 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,080 marginalized groups and women who are short of resources. 318 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,640 There is no comparison between the huge difference which is 319 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,920 there in the amounts received by the ruling parties versus the 320 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,800 others, so obviously the level playing field has been skewed. 321 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,400 One would argue, or maybe even certain parties would argue, it 322 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,960 has always never been a level playing field. 323 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,360 There's always been a party that has had an inherently huge 324 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,360 advantage over others. Would you say that this gap is 325 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,360 bigger now? Yes, yes, yes, yes. 326 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:25,080 This type of difference was not there and this is increasing by 327 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,240 the year it is going on increasing by the. 328 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,160 As Anil Verma has already pointed out, there's no way for 329 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,080 a common man to know who's funding which party and. 330 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,720 Possibly. Which policy? 331 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,720 He says. Even a simple fix in the scheme 332 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,880 would make it dramatically transparent. 333 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,600 I personally feel that even if just the identity of the donors 334 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,640 is disclosed in the system, it will make a huge difference if 335 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,680 it is there in the public domain. 336 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840 If they're on the Election Commission website, then 337 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,760 everybody's aware if you're OK. So that would at least impose 338 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,560 some portion on the political parties as to whom they're 339 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,520 accepting funds from. That is the main thing right 340 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:11,440 now. Nobody knows. 341 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:14,600 Anil Verma says there is. No ideal. 342 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,560 System of political funding. But the electoral bond system as 343 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,840 it stands in India is unique and as opaque as it gets. 344 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,680 And more importantly. It hasn't really stopped. 345 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,600 The inflow of illegal funds into the political system. 346 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,240 There can be no ideal system of political funding. 347 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,200 Of course, this electoral bond scheme itself is a unique thing. 348 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,320 It is not there in any other country. 349 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,880 I mean, there is no foolproof system, but yes. 350 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,240 In the Law Commission reports and various other reports, they 351 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,560 have all said that why should each and every PESA received by 352 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,720 a political party not be accounted for? 353 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,960 And you are seeing what is going on, horse trading, hotels, 354 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,600 moving MPs and MLAs here and there and all that which goes 355 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,440 on. Do you think that is all done 356 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,040 through the banks? What money is being used for 357 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,080 that? If the Supreme Court verdict 358 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,320 does go. Against ADR again like it did. 359 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,200 But what for you are the big worries if the electoral bond 360 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,800 system is allowed to stay in its current form? 361 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,240 Our biggest worry is this, only that we do not know what source 362 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,960 of funding is. We have also been saying that 363 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,520 there is a need to have a ceiling on the expenditure, 364 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,440 which is done by the political parties. 365 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,680 I mean, imagine for a country like ours, I understand that our 366 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,000 GDP is increasing and we are developing, but is it really 367 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,720 required that we spend more money than what US spends in its 368 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,840 presidential elections? That is again my personal thing. 369 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,080 Is it really required? Do we need to spend so much 370 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,880 money? Is there a serious case for 371 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,400 that? Public funding or state funding 372 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,600 of elections as people talk about? 373 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,680 But technically we do have a ceiling, right? 374 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,600 It's just that nobody follows. No. 375 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,400 No, no, no, no, no, no. Please don't mix up the things. 376 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,720 That ceiling is for candidates. They cannot spend more than 377 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:27,160 40,00,000 in the state assembly elections and 75,00,000 in the 378 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,160 general elections. But for political parties there 379 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,240 is no ceiling and the bulk of the expenditure is done by the 380 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,120 political parties. And even these candidates, of 381 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,880 course we know they spent 10 times or more. 382 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,760 Of course, everybody in their official statement states they 383 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,440 have never crossed more than 50 to 60% of the authorized left. 384 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,440 You remember Atal Bihari Bajpaiji had said in the 385 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,640 Parliament that we all start our career with law with a lie that 386 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:07,320 is this expenditure statement. Today's episode was produced by 387 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,240 Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 388 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,040 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 389 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,160 We're available. On TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google 390 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,800 Podcasts, and all other platforms of your choice. 391 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:26,080 For any news tips, e-mail us at TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot 392 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:26,400 in.