1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:02,320 Welcome to the Network State Podcast. 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,040 I'm here today with Anatoly Yakovenko, the Co founder of 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:06,640 Solana. Today we're talking about why 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,040 the decentralized crypto phone is central to both digital civil 5 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:11,800 rights and digital property rights. 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,240 To understand the crypto phone, you need to understand the 7 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,960 concept of private keys. These are the keys to your 8 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,320 crypto wallet. A crypto phone is unlocked with 9 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,400 those keys just like a normal phone is unlocked with your Face 10 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,000 ID passcode. Now because these private keys 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,680 are kept local, the Cryptophone is built around protecting 12 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,440 digital civil rights and digital property rights to a much 13 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,280 greater extent than a typical phone. 14 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,440 It protects digital civil rights because it allows you to send 15 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,760 provably end to end encrypted messages and protect your 16 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,400 account from centralized search and seizure. 17 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,400 But the Cryptophone also protects digital property rights 18 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,680 by preventing centralized services from freezing 19 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 transactions or seizing funds. And that's why the Cryptophone 20 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,840 is important protection of digital civil rights and digital 21 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,760 property rights. Anatoly is with me today to talk 22 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,800 about Solana's efforts on their phone and how as a former 23 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,160 Qualcomm engineer, his experience in low level hardware 24 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,120 optimization was actually very helpful in building it. 25 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,959 We talked about some of the nitty gritty technical details 26 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,520 in building the phone and then go all the way up to the big 27 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,040 picture of the society we're building, namely how the crypto 28 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,160 phone is perhaps the crucial enabling technology for the 29 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,520 sovereign individual and thereby A crucial enabler of the 30 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,160 sovereign collective, what we call the network state. 31 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,120 Let's get started. Welcome to the New York State 32 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Podcast, Anatoly. Should I say totally go ahead? 33 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:25,640 Totally works. Thank you for having me. 34 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,520 You know, we've been think friendly for a few years now. 35 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,280 I've seen the rise of Solana from very humble beginnings. 36 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,320 I actually knew Raj all the way back in the day when he was at 37 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Omaha Health. I was a board member there and 38 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,080 you have gotten to know more recently and you were formerly a 39 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,920 Qualcomm engineer before a relatively unusual laden career 40 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,880 migration to crypto. And what I thought I thought 41 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,800 we'd talk about today is, you know, the Solana ecosystem in 42 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,840 general, but specifically why the Solana phone, a 43 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,320 decentralized crypto phone is is central to human freedom. 44 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,760 But maybe you want to, you want to just give the most people 45 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:02,840 know what Solana is at this point. 46 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,080 But we want to give the background yourself, background 47 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,840 on Salon and so on. Just bring us up to the the 48 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,479 present moment. Sure. 49 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,680 So the my origin story, You know, I'm went to school in 50 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,640 Illinois. I was a nerd. 51 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Loved computer science, loved performance optimization. 52 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,880 I don't know for whatever reason I like mentally got into the the 53 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,560 love of like looking at code and trying to make it run as fast as 54 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,160 possible and a piece of hardware like optimizing assembly, all 55 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,400 that stuff. And I ended up working on kind 56 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,960 of that part of Qualcomm, like looking at like various parts of 57 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,960 the stack and like doing optimizations. 58 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,000 And I was there from the start of the mobile revolution. 59 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,840 Basically 2003 for about. I can't remember for sure but 60 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,160 like 12 or 13 years. So I went from like these two MB 61 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,120 2 inch phone phone devices. To like 2005 ish pre iPhone. 62 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,520 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way, way before iPhone. 63 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,880 And like I saw the iPhone revolution, I saw the feature 64 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,520 phone market drop from 80% to 20%. 65 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,400 I saw the hardware improve every year by more than a factor of 66 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:14,080 2X, which is pretty cool. And 2017 like I've been. 67 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,520 I was aware of crypto I think since the origin. 68 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,800 I thought Bitcoin was kind of neat, but I never understood the 69 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,120 social impact of it even in retrospect it seems so obvious. 70 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,360 2008 financial crisis sure this sound money thing comes out. 71 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,440 It just like didn't click. It seemed like, oh, this is kind 72 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,360 of neat but would never scale kind of thing. 73 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,000 And a lot of engineers get very skeptical about, like, this is 74 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,920 going to change the world. Right, right. 75 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,040 And like, missed the whole social implication of it in 2017 76 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,720 is when I got into crypto, I saw fees and Bitcoin hit like 60 77 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,160 bucks a transaction. And I literally had like a 78 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Eureka moment that there's a way to encode passage of time as 79 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,600 data and that was the foundation of proof of history. 80 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,360 But like, that I didn't know what to Google for. 81 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,640 This is kind of funny, like the reason why so long has started 82 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,600 is because I couldn't. I didn't know this was a 83 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Verifiable Delay function. There's a bunch of folks like 84 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,720 Dan Bonet working in these things at Stanford and I didn't 85 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,880 know what to Google for. And I thought, oh man, I found 86 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,440 something really, really cool that no one has thought of. 87 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,200 And it has this unique property where I can take this data 88 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,520 structure and I think I can apply it to build a source of 89 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,640 time and create time division multiple access which is how old 90 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,520 school 2G cellular networks. Look like, yeah. 91 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,240 But I started before CD. Yeah, before CDMA, it was all 92 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,760 TDMA before CDMA. That's right. 93 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,240 Yep. Yeah, so I and that's like the 94 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,040 fundamental way you scale bandwidth in a shared channel 95 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,920 and radio is you split everything by time and then you 96 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,200 get you can utilize basically almost all the bandwidth 97 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,920 available to you. And once you have that, you have 98 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,280 a scalable blockchain. So that was like the Eureka 99 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:53,720 moment. I didn't know what to Google 100 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,400 for. My wife basically said you 101 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,480 better go start this and do this for real or stop talking about 102 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,240 it. That's great that she encouraged 103 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:04,080 you, though. That's really great. 104 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,720 Yeah. And that's when I met Raj and he 105 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,560 was kind of the perfect Co founder because he was not an 106 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,520 engineer. He's raised money before. 107 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,240 He kind of understood a large part of tech in Silicon Valley 108 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,920 that was really new to me. His quote is that like, he was 109 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,520 like, OK, I'll help you for six months and then, you know, off 110 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,720 you go. But five years later, yeah, five 111 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,160 years later, we're still working and building. 112 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,600 The sort of low level optimization stuff that you're 113 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,920 talking about. You know you know Duff's device, 114 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,880 I'm sure you Duff's device right, That type of stuff, 115 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,160 right? Where in theory you can just 116 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,640 write a four loop and you know the compiler will take care of 117 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:40,840 it. But in practice you might need 118 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:42,840 to actually manually unroll the loop and you have to have a 119 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,440 familiarity with the underlying, you know, architecture, right. 120 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,480 You know, it's interesting because you know, a couple of 121 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,120 just remarks on what you said. One is you know Feynman, I think 122 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,200 he used to say that he didn't like to read the literature 123 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,720 before he attacked a problem. He only did that afterwards if 124 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,600 you ever did it, because then you would try to take an 125 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,560 original approach from first principles, which is sort of 126 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,240 what happened with you in proof of history. 127 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,240 And now obviously there's an intersection with VDF and you 128 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:07,760 can pull some ideas from that literature. 129 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,840 But you you came at it from an original way of thinking of, you 130 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:13,680 know, essentially VDFS as an alternative to proof of work or 131 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,760 proof of static, right? Yeah, I felt like I got lucky in 132 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,320 solving a hard computer science problem you can do. 133 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,960 Basically, as an engineer, you never want to feel like, OK, 134 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,280 this is like, I'm going to solve this really hard computer 135 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:28,440 science problem, You're very likely to fail. 136 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,000 And what I felt was like, oh man, I think I got lucky. 137 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,160 And they have like a solution to something really clever, to a 138 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,680 very hard computer science problem. 139 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,400 So let's see like how far we can take and how far we can scale 140 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,880 it. And one way of thinking about 141 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,640 this and you tell me if I'm off base, but like the way I sort of 142 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:51,960 model it is that part of how Solana scales is because you 143 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,200 assume that nodes can have heavy compute, whereas you know 144 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,200 Bitcoin for example assumes like a one Meg block size constraint 145 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,360 is a hard constraint system. The whole Bitcoin civil wars 146 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,480 fought over that. And then Ethereum now obviously 147 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,640 is a totally different model with with stake and and so on 148 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,200 which is which is different, right? 149 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,720 But would you, would you agree with that? 150 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,120 Yeah, and that comes from this idea that they don't have a a 151 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,280 source of global, they don't actually have a global clock and 152 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,720 they have to rely on other forms to to get their notes to 153 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,680 coordinate. And the the problem this is like 154 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,560 TDMA solves is like pretty intuitive. 155 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,320 Like imagine you have two radio towers that transmit at the same 156 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,200 time or the same frequency, you get noise. 157 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,480 So if you give each one a clock, they alternate by time and they 158 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,040 there's no longer interference and information passes through. 159 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,240 This is actually exactly the same thing that happens with 160 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,440 blockchains. You have two block producers 161 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,520 that produce a block at the same time, they'll produce a fork. 162 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,560 So now the chain doesn't know what the next state is and has 163 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,760 to resolve it. And that's effectively noise 164 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,000 because now you've dropped the amount of information that this 165 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,120 this thing is is handling per second. 166 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,200 So yeah, and actually I've actually, I have a signal 167 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,960 processing background. I didn't do certainly as much as 168 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,720 you've done at Qualcomm, but you know, for the, for the viewers 169 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,640 or what have you, the, you know, the noise that you're talking 170 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,800 about is if both of those stations try to compete with 171 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,800 each other by blasting at the same time. 172 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,560 There's a beggar, that neighbor thing where I'm broadcasting, 173 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,160 OK, no, you can only hear me, OK, I'm going to broadcast and 174 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,160 then they compete and then people just hear static because 175 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,840 they're just kind of competing with each other, right? 176 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,680 But if instead they take turns, which they can only do if 177 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,920 they've got a very reliable clock, then I can broadcast 178 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,360 stop, you broadcast stop. And we cut up the spectrum by 179 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,039 time. But what's interesting is I 180 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,400 don't think, you know, maybe it's just I'm remiss or derelict 181 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,360 in this, but I don't think I've actually heard the analogy 182 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,320 between TDMA and proof of history before. 183 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,120 And The thing is that CDMA is much more efficient than TDMA 184 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,480 because you have, you know, instead of I broadcast and then 185 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,160 you broadcast and then person C and person D or whatever, you 186 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,440 use orthogonal functions, you know, wavelets or you know, hard 187 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,120 bases or something. And then everybody can broadcast 188 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,800 at the same time, but their signals are actually have zero 189 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,440 inner product with each other. And then you have a much, you 190 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:01,640 know, much better use of bandwidth. 191 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,640 I wonder, is there is there something I'm sure you thought 192 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:04,880 about that? Maybe it's a really trivial 193 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,680 question, but is there some analogy for that with with 194 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:12,080 Solana? There is, it's it's pretty 195 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,440 complicated. So there's a way to broadcast 196 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,760 multiple block, have multiple block producers broadcasts at 197 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,280 the same time, and you're kind of dealing with a similar 198 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,520 problem. If I see if I have to guarantee 199 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,360 that when I receive this information that is partially 200 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,640 from A&B that I can decode it and it think in a very general 201 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,680 way that's very similar to how these wavelets don't interfere. 202 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,360 You can solve it with the ratio coding. 203 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,400 You can pad it with enough ratio coding which is a polynomial and 204 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,640 you receive parts of the message and then you recover it. 205 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,960 That's like on a road map. Eventually there's something 206 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,480 that we want to build, but this is like one of those non linear 207 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,440 hard engineering problems. Sure, sure. 208 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,480 I think it's my, you know, my my recollection is CDMA was not 209 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,240 done in an adversarial environment. 210 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,080 And so probably there's some assumption that breaks down when 211 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,680 folks are trying to broadcast because you have to, you have to 212 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,640 nail the the that basis exactly for it to work right. 213 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,840 The the concepts of like having polynomials interpolate the data 214 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,320 and give you this. Like like now, now you're no 215 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,400 longer looking at like discrete chance of data. 216 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,040 You're looking at samples of a function. 217 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,720 You know you're you're sampling a function that actually works 218 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,000 really well in an adversarial environment because it has this 219 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,360 natural error correction. So you can make an assumption 220 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,440 that as long as X percent of the participants are like honest, 221 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,080 then I will recover the sample. And like in general, you know, 222 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,480 the assumption that all these networks run on is that 2/3 of 223 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,400 the network are honest. And therefore that's a very 224 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,320 pretty valid assumption. What you want to avoid is that 225 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,320 if they are dishonest, what you want is that the natural state 226 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,760 as the thing halts, but that's the result. 227 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,600 Like not that it can like steal money or issue like new tokens 228 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,480 and something like that and that's also pretty easy to 229 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,920 achieve. So I think, I think we have like 230 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:09,240 a a realistic engineering plan to to build that it's just 231 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,360 deploying these systems like on the global Internet with random 232 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,600 people running this and random hardware on random connections. 233 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,360 It's like a massive pain. It is, Yeah, I know. 234 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,440 Of course. Well, that's The funny thing is, 235 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,480 even even with the hardware requirements that you guys, you 236 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,720 have fairly beefy requirements for the nodes, right? 237 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,040 So even with that, it's still like, you know, the Dunkirk 238 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,400 evacuation. No. 239 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,920 That it's like, well, so basically in in World War 2, the 240 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,360 British were able to evacuate France with a, it wasn't like a 241 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,000 nice military set of ships. It was just this boat and this 242 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,280 dinghy and so on. And they just kind of used 243 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:53,880 everything that they could get together. 244 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,440 And that's kind of how I think about a lot of decentralized 245 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 computing is. It's like it's like the Dunkirk 246 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,000 evacuation, just get whatever boat you can to to solve the 247 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,160 problem. And so even with that baseline, 248 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,280 that's interesting. So you still have a lot of, you 249 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,560 know, just a lot of folks in in the consensus network? 250 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,160 Well, yeah. Well, Solana is unique in the 251 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,400 like. I think we're the only network 252 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,320 that has a single core where there is no sampling and it's 253 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,000 very large. It's like about 3000 computers 254 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,320 all participating in consensus and they're voting every 400 255 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,600 milliseconds. So we've kind of like when you 256 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,440 look at the trilemma problem that Vitalik kind of laid out 257 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,640 that there's trade-offs between performance, decentralization 258 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,440 and security, like the properties. 259 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,480 You can't really scale that without hardware or or. 260 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,840 You basically take the sharding approach where you start 261 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,960 splitting the network and you're making a trade off. 262 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,440 There a bit on security but like. 263 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,400 Well, there's a third approach, which is 0 knowledge or 264 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:54,520 something along those lines, right? 265 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,960 Like where you you are, you're it's that's almost like the CDMA 266 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,520 of our space where you're using you have an algorithmic gain 267 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,120 potentially. I don't know if you'd agree with 268 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,840 that. Zero knowledge helps you on the 269 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,520 compute side, so you can improve how much computation A verifier 270 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,880 needs to like. You basically lower the CPU 271 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,640 count. But well, I was saying like roll 272 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,280 ups, like ZK roll ups like you just store less, you use as a 273 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,440 compression thing, you store less information on chain or 274 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,280 something like that. That has its own trade-offs, of 275 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,120 course. You can get rid of signature 276 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,400 verification, but you can get rid of the state and the Ledger, 277 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,440 and fundamentally that's that is the bottleneck. 278 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,920 Like, there's tricks. You can apply these tricks to 279 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,560 layer one and kind of compress a bunch of the signatures and do a 280 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,560 bunch of other tricks. But at the end of the day, the 281 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,120 bandwidth that's shared between the network, in a very like 282 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,680 radio analogy, that Channel that's shared between all the 283 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,720 towers, that's the limit. And totally either you build two 284 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,440 different networks on different spectrums, right, And then have 285 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,920 like algorithms to to make sure that they can reliably assume 286 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,400 that the other one didn't create a fault, or you just make it 287 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,760 bigger, right. You like increase the spectrum 288 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,480 and therefore you can increase the number of participants. 289 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,200 And that's the approach we're taking. 290 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,920 And that means that we are the optimization nerds that are 291 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,800 looking at like Duff device like OK, what if we like pre fetch 292 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,280 this into memory and like do stuff like this, Can we handle 293 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,680 more messages per second and therefore have more 294 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,520 participants? And the result of that I think 295 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,480 is like been awesome, like we have nearly 3000 validators all 296 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,400 in a single quorum, all voting every 400 milliseconds. 297 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,360 So this is a single replicated global computer that's 298 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,720 synchronized every 400 milliseconds in the world. 299 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,000 So when you drop a piece of data into it, it's replicated around 300 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,120 the world. Which is pretty amazing. 301 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,960 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually that's. 302 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,560 An interesting way, you know, it's an interesting way of 303 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,440 thinking about it. It's not just ACDN in the sense 304 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,240 of data replication. It's also compute replication, 305 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,480 right? And it's and and it's got 306 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,000 verification that the data was replicated consistently across 307 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,440 all those places where CDN, a normal CDN like Akamai or 308 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,480 something like that doesn't have, doesn't have the same 309 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:03,680 thing. That's just an interesting way 310 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:04,680 of thinking about it. I hadn't. 311 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,040 I for some reason I just hadn't thought about the latency aspect 312 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:13,440 in quite that way, like a CDN two point O OK, well, so well 313 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:14,760 actually do you have any more remarks on that? 314 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,560 I wanted to. I wanted to talk about the go 315 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,200 ahead. Yeah, there's like kind of a 316 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,960 fundamental difference between in in like values, between what 317 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,520 Solana's working on, what a theory of folks are working on. 318 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,760 And you can kind of think of it as like both care about trust 319 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,920 minimization. There's some amount of that the 320 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,240 network needs to minimize the amount of trust that people 321 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,560 place in it. But like Solana really cares 322 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,000 about global synchrony, That data is replicated globally as 323 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,360 fast as possible and everyone has the exact same state, like 324 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,560 as fast as possible and atomic composition that me as a 325 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,320 developer or me as a user, I can like reuse the references any 326 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,840 pieces of this data immediately and like atomically. 327 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,640 And those three things are what Solana cares about. 328 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,600 And Etherium folks have been able to sacrifice the other two 329 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,680 while improving trust minimization to a degree. 330 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,360 And that's. I I think it's reasonable. 331 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,240 I I actually think I I mean I'm a multi, I mean and so and so 332 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,440 forth. My mental model is that you have 333 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,280 just like you have different levels of security for different 334 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,480 kinds of things. You know you might have a 335 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,560 certain level of security for the the president of a country 336 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,120 and another level of security for I don't know the, I don't 337 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,520 know the the the mayor of a city or something like that right. 338 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,800 And then you have another level of security for just somebody 339 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,760 walking down the street who may not be as much of an 340 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,240 assassination target or what have you in the same way that 341 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,400 you have. You know, Bitcoin has a certain 342 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,320 level of security where it's like it's trying to be a nation 343 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,840 safe, resistant, and then Ethereum and then completely 344 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,360 immutable. And Ethereum has relative 345 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,760 immutability in the sense of infrequently mutated smart 346 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,520 contracts and they try to keep the chain fairly thin, but not 347 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,000 as thin as as bitcoins. And then you guys are, you know, 348 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,760 like a, it's like a third gear on a bicycle. 349 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,079 And you know, each year on a bicycle is like useful for 350 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:07,119 different things. And then you guys have what I 351 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,720 call a fatter chain, right, which makes actually a lot of 352 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,560 things very convenient. You just have all the state 353 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,000 there. You just program against it. 354 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,040 You don't have to have anything off chain or what have you, but 355 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,680 it does increase the weight of the chain and you need, you 356 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,000 know, heavier compute to deal with it. 357 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,119 Does that sound like a fair? Yeah. 358 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,079 Description like the difference there isn't that the security is 359 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,600 is worse or better, it's security is more expensive. 360 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,160 Like you have to pay for a more expensive full node to get the 361 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,000 the full trust minimization guarantees. 362 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,000 So what I wanted to talk about today, you know, maybe primarily 363 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,000 is the solanophone. You know, the decentralized 364 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,640 Cryptophone is central to liberty and freedom in the 365 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,280 world, to civil rights, to property rights in this age of, 366 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,360 you know, centralization of of things. 367 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,560 And I can get my brief thesis on it, and I'd love to hear your 368 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,120 thesis on the solanophone is a specific embodiment of this. 369 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,560 Essentially, if you, you know now about 15 years into the 370 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,880 smartphone revolution, certainly our our wallet is on our phone. 371 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,760 You know, with your Apple Pay or what have you, your boarding 372 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,280 passes are on there. In many countries, to get 373 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,600 through like a COVID checkpoint or something like that, you 374 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,440 needed to use your phone. They just assumed everybody had 375 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,520 it. You call your Uber or whatever 376 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,120 on your phone, you get to your Airbnb on your phone. 377 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,280 Your data is on there, your communications are on there. 378 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,320 A large part of your life is on there. 379 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,120 Your digital life is on there. But it can be remotely accessed 380 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,440 like, for example, in China not too long ago on videos of those, 381 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,000 you know, protests against the like, you know, the third year 382 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,840 of lockdowns are videos of those were just like remotely I've 383 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,800 heard deleted, you know, from like WeChat. 384 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,200 They just reached in and deleted them. 385 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,400 We've seen, for example, with Google, there was a report that 386 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,160 some parents were taking photos of their kids for the doctor, 387 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,000 for the pediatrician, and they got flagged as CSAM. 388 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,840 And, you know, their life was turned upside down as a function 389 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,640 of that. OK. 390 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,960 And then there's stuff where, you know, of course people, you 391 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,920 know, there's various hackers that can do remote wipes. 392 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,600 And. And so it's over. 393 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,800 And so this thing that really is your sanctum sanctorum, your 394 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,720 phone, there's some being some good moves in the sense of, like 395 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,440 intent encryption is now out there. 396 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,200 Apple has done some very laudable stuff recently with 397 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,440 their, you know, iCloud actually has private keys. 398 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,160 It's getting all these people. Everyone's like, oh, no one will 399 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,200 learn private keys. Apple has actually got this new 400 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,480 thing with iCloud where you can have private keys and actually 401 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,560 get into an encryption locally, but we're still not all the way 402 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,200 there towards a a sovereign phone, you know where you have 403 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,880 private keys that you hold locally that encrypt cloud data 404 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,040 and they give you not just intend encryption. 405 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,920 That's asserted. I mean I like the fact that 406 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,840 WhatsApp is there's it, but that's provable because you're 407 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,800 encrypting it locally, right. And so, so that is kind of where 408 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,960 I'm at where I wanted to see a crypto phone for like 10 years. 409 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,640 And I'm so glad you're doing it, but I'd love to hear your thesis 410 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,920 on it then maybe we can kind of go from. 411 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,080 There, I think like the really the coolest thing about crypto 412 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,720 is not the blockchains or the layer ones is the it's the self 413 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,600 custody cryptography piece. Yes, because it's the it's like 414 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,680 AI think when you kind of think about combined with like the 415 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,520 First Amendment and like the 4th Amendment, you effectively have 416 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,600 the base layer for a stateless society like I have. 417 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,560 I have my cryptography, nobody can take it from me. 418 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,720 There's. And you know, an atomic weapon 419 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,360 cannot break the encryption and like that's a very, very 420 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,200 powerful tool. And I think it's because it's 421 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,960 secured by math. It makes it I think kind of 422 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,520 outside of almost human facilities like magic 423 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,120 effectively. And I think that was like the 424 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:43,360 revolution. What crypto created is that like 425 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,360 you know, I have consumer grade crypto that people are able to 426 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,720 install and download through Metamask, through Phantom, 427 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,600 through like Chrome extensions or through Ledger and that 428 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,800 didn't exist before 2008. Like, I don't know if you ever 429 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,120 worked at a big tech company prior to that signing something 430 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,960 required they were like armed guards by the Verisign security. 431 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:04,280 Oh, really? I didn't know that. 432 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:05,840 That part I didn't know. Yeah, go ahead. 433 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,920 How did that work? Tell me about that. 434 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Yeah, so the way Verisign works is there's a certificate chain. 435 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,760 They have a cryptographic key that is the root, and then that 436 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,520 key signs a child key that then gets passed down to like Google, 437 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,560 and then Google has its own certificate chain down to like 438 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,880 its own people, but it's really. Click the lock symbol near an 439 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,840 https://site and they'll show you the certificate chain. 440 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,000 But the armed guards part I wasn't aware of. 441 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,920 I knew about like DNS sack and I knew about like the people who 442 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,680 are like the root domain, you know, holders and and so on. 443 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,880 But but tell tell me about this. Well, if you steal the root, you 444 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,600 can reassign certificates and then you can fake all the 445 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,000 connections and you can pretend to be Google. 446 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,280 So what? Was the armed guards thing, so 447 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,760 Verisign basically. So, so like at a big tech 448 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,760 company, like, if you're signing code that says, hey, this is 449 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,400 like Qualcomm's code or this is Google's code that's now running 450 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,360 in your device, and the device trusts that code to have certain 451 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,400 privileges, You have to sign it with a certificate. 452 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,320 And that signature process is extremely like, it's a ceremony. 453 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,600 There's guards that guard the key for Mike. 454 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,920 You got to go to like, a Faraday cage, like. 455 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,640 It's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. 456 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,640 Interesting. So I mean, you know, what that 457 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,520 does remind me of actually is the security for a crypto 458 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,440 exchange, right? Where you do use a Faraday cage 459 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,480 and you do like you know, you just don't take any. 460 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:33,040 You know you sign offline and you air gap and you cold story. 461 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,480 You just all of the different defenses in depth, right? 462 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,040 But go ahead, you're going to say. 463 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,120 But like, consumers basically didn't have access to this. 464 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:46,560 It was very likely PGP was like the encryption tool for signing 465 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,200 emails. And all of the stuff never 466 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,080 really worked at scale. But all of a sudden with crypto, 467 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,640 because there's some, you know, need for like people to have 468 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,640 fun. Like either there's for 469 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,800 speculative reasons or just because they're developers that 470 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,680 are messing around with Ethereum and looking at it as a new 471 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,600 programming environment where Bitcoin people started building 472 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,200 all of these tools to make it easier. 473 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,760 And you started Metamask, I think was a massive step up from 474 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,120 PGP. Like if you ever as a as a human 475 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,280 like I could not figure out PGP right? 476 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:20,840 Well. And I'm an. 477 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,320 That's The thing is, you know, I have a rule of thumb which is if 478 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,640 it's hard for you and it's hard for me, it's usually too hard, 479 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,280 right? Like like it's hard for like 480 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,560 basically, you know, our friends and ours, it's usually too hard, 481 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,320 right. And but but your point is 482 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,600 actually a really good one because the entire, you know, 483 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,920 PKI problem, right, public key infrastructure, there's this 484 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,800 whole slew of actually nowadays as I'll get to very useful 485 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,080 papers. But at the time all these papers 486 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,160 were written under the assumption of the 90s and the 487 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,680 2000s of assume the PKI problem is solved, right? 488 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,720 Assume just for the viewers that everybody has a private key that 489 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,240 they keep secure and accessible at all times and a public key 490 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,360 that's that's available to everybody on the Internet. 491 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:06,440 If everybody on a network had that, there's all kinds of 492 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,400 amazing magic that you can do with things that are, you know, 493 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,200 like like secure e-mail and messaging and all this stuff, 494 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,000 right, Transactions. The problem is, I think the part 495 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,520 that was not appreciated is that to have something both A secure 496 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,000 and B accessible at all times is actually very costly. 497 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,600 Because you could have it secure without being accessible by just 498 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,040 going and putting in some safe deposit box that you never, you 499 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,280 know it's dug up in the ground, right? 500 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,120 Or you can have it accessible without being secure by just 501 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,080 having it, you know, like pinned to the top of your Twitter or 502 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,480 like tape to the top of your computer or something like that. 503 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,880 To be both A secure and B accessible is like on your 504 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,720 person. It's like it's like literally a 505 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,920 wallet, right? And and so you needed a strong 506 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,040 incentive for something like that and you need to teach 507 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,760 people that if it was not secure or not accessible, they would 508 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,400 lose money because it wasn't accessible, then they couldn't 509 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,360 find the key and if it wasn't secure, someone else would take 510 00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:59,240 the key. And so cryptocurrency 511 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,120 incentivized the build out of public key infrastructure. 512 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,080 Without it, we wouldn't have had millions, hundreds of millions 513 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,720 of people trained and incentivized to keep their 514 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,880 private keys private and secure, right. 515 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,360 The secure and accessible. And so that's enabled this 516 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:17,800 entire, all this magic of, you know, this this like world that 517 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,240 these these papers assumed into being. 518 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,960 Now that assumption is actually manifest. 519 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:23,520 I'd love your thoughts on that. Yeah. 520 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,200 And that that's exactly what I was kind of my realization too. 521 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,440 Like once you have PKI that's like consumer scalable PKI, all 522 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,720 of these ideas like become possible. 523 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,960 You can like you late. What does? 524 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,440 It's not even going to matter which layer one people are you 525 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,800 seeing when you have 8 billion people that can sign with 526 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,480 cryptography. That's right. 527 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,040 Yeah. It's like, it's like, you know, 528 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,480 in the early days when people started using the term crypto, 529 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,560 of course you could do software before the Internet. 530 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,760 I mean, there were personal computers there, there you can 531 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,440 do disconnect computers. But software and Internet are 532 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,960 almost synonymous today. They're not, of course. 533 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,800 But because so much software runs an Internet and so much 534 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,920 software depends on the Internet and sober software assumes the 535 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,280 Internet. And the same way, like so much 536 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,280 cryptography will assume cryptocurrency. 537 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,680 Because if you're going to assume that a private key is 538 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,920 there locally, I mean this is the thing where Apple 539 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,280 introducing this thing for I cloud or WhatsApp doing intent 540 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,400 encryption or you know Google has like DNS verification for 541 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,320 you to confirm you have your domain right. 542 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,960 Amazon of course has its EC2 keys. 543 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,600 All of the majors understand that you need like some sort of, 544 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,800 you know, key challenge or some sort of digital verification and 545 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,720 all that will eventually in my view and probably yours 546 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,160 eventually go to some sort of, you know, crypto based thing, 547 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,600 right, Because it just the platform that has the most 548 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,080 adoption. We've got 300 million crypto 549 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,080 users now. In five years, 10 years, we may 550 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,160 have a billion or more, right? Go ahead and it's much easier 551 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,960 once the like the all the tools that we've built for crypto make 552 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,520 that communication challenge response process much, much 553 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,560 easier and much faster. And like it, you're not no 554 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,400 longer need to be like APHD in cryptography and cryptographic 555 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,760 secure protocols. You can actually use a bunch of 556 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,040 JavaScript to go punch it out, and all of a sudden you've got 557 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,440 something that works. And. 558 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,880 People like we're still not at a stage where you can make that 559 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,960 secure, like like a entry level engineer can build a secure 560 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,440 system. But we're at a stage where you 561 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,000 can build these systems and they're somewhat straightforward 562 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,680 to audit and you can get to that like, OK, this is a secure 563 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,720 protocol. We're doing the key exchange 564 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,880 over Solana or whatever and now we've set up the communication 565 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,560 channel. Everyone can go and talk in a 566 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,200 secure environment. That's right. 567 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,600 And actually, you know, one thing you touch on, which is 568 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,120 user interfaces, like really nice and clean user interfaces. 569 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,480 People take them for granted because they're simple to use. 570 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,920 They think they were simple to develop, and it's actually quite 571 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:53,800 the opposite. Go ahead. 572 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,120 And the simplicity comes from like consumer scale. 573 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,960 When you can make an assumption that the Internet connection is 574 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,240 always there and it always works. 575 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,680 And when you when you get to a point when developers can make 576 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,560 the assumption, OK, everyone's going to have a wallet and when 577 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,280 they talk to my website there's a wallet, you actually blow away 578 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,400 a massive part of like normal developer user account 579 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,360 management. Like I don't know if you ever 580 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,200 had to build a SAS or whatever. Yeah, it's a like managing 581 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000 accounts, managing their credit cards, doing all of the stuff is 582 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,200 like a team of 20 or 30 in any decent like size like SAS 583 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,320 company. And and and you basically, I 584 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,120 mean you can rely, you can try to use Facebook login, Google 585 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,160 login and so and so forth and you can actually get quite far 586 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,880 with that. But eventually you're almost 587 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,920 always going to need your own account system because it is the 588 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,760 central node in everything you're doing, right. 589 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,560 Like you have types of users and all that type of stuff and you 590 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,520 have admin users or whatever. But now we have the portable 591 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:53,880 login. We actually have this article 592 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,160 called the Billion User Table, which I'll flash up, but 593 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,520 basically you know the advent of ENS and SNS and so on, like now 594 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,440 you can have portable name between sites, which is the 595 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,240 portable social profile that people wanted. 596 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,080 It is is locked to a blockchain. But you can import and export 597 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,080 your profile data in and out of sites, which is kind of what 598 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,480 you're talking about, right? It's like a third model for 599 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,560 accounts, right? Not username and password, not 600 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,960 log in with Google or Facebook, but log in with your private 601 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:19,920 key. Effectively go ahead. 602 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,000 Exactly. So once once you assume that 603 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,200 consumers of PKI, it's just all like not only can you build like 604 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,040 just normal applications much faster because you're not 605 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,720 managing accounts, but you can now also build financial 606 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,280 applications, which has really been impossible before. 607 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,240 And like you can build a bank, right? 608 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,960 Bit like 2-2 devs can build a bank in three weeks. 609 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,160 And and you know, The thing is, one thing I find, and you're 610 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,000 probably aware of this as well, is folks who are first or second 611 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,960 Gen. immigrants are just so much more conscious of how big a deal 612 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,360 that is, right. Because we've all experienced 613 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,200 some problem with the banking system, either in our home 614 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,520 countries or, you know, with family abroad or something like 615 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,360 that. And the more you're kind of, you 616 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,360 know, more the developed world, rich country, whatever, you 617 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,360 know, legacy infrastructure works for you, the less you see 618 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,560 the need for crypto. Because you don't, you just 619 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,200 don't see the problem. You're like, you know, my 620 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,320 Starbucks thing kind of works. Why do I need this thing? 621 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,760 Whatever. But if you're sending money 622 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,360 overseas, you know, Murtaza Hussein had a good post on this 623 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,000 where, you know, he's in, he's got like family, totally 624 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,520 innocent family. They happen to be in a country 625 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,040 which is just very hard to send money to and boom, he's just 626 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,360 able to do it right. And so that kind of thing, like 627 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,560 now boom, you can just instantly set up the equivalent of a bank 628 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,920 account, send and receive money. It is actually like it's on a 629 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,880 that's The thing is people think, oh, where's the use 630 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,360 cases? Well, it's 1000 X, it's 100,000 631 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,960 X easier to set up a bank account in terms of time and to 632 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,960 send money across borders and to do accounting on chain and and 633 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,160 all these different things. Whatever. 634 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,880 I I'm, I know I'm preaching to the choir. 635 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,280 But go ahead. So, so you get to kind of like 636 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,280 the mobile phone. Why mobile one like me as an 637 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,640 engineer at Qualcomm. This is while I was there. 638 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,200 This is basically, I think before even Bitcoin was a thing. 639 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,040 We're already working on this idea of a trusted display and a 640 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,440 trusted computing environment on your phone. 641 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,680 And that means that it's, it's by trusted. 642 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,880 What this means is that it's an environment that the operating 643 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,480 system that runs all these user applications cannot cannot 644 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,760 touch. It's like it's like. 645 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,600 Exactly SGX, right, Exactly. But SGX did have a problem with 646 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,720 it, right? If I was like a while back or go 647 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,480 ahead. These these systems are hard to 648 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,440 build and it takes a lot of iteration and like the SGX 649 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,480 design was more ambitious than like something like trust zone 650 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,200 and ARM. But you basically the way kind 651 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,560 of from a very high level, the way it works is it segments 652 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,560 memory is it. There's some chunks of physical 653 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,520 addresses that are accessible to the trust zone and nothing else 654 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,960 in the operating system can read it. 655 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,200 And you need to also make the display trusted environment. 656 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,040 And that's a very kind of an unintuitive thing. 657 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600 But like let's say you had like a widget for you to enter your 658 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,520 seed phrase on the phone and an application from a malicious 659 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,640 developer replicated yeah, mimic the exact same screen that asks 660 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080 you to re enter it. Risers would get fished and 661 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,480 accidentally enter it and know your seed phrase is is gone. 662 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,160 So you need a a very a way to override the display and make 663 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,880 sure the operating system cannot mimic that and like create that 664 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,400 environment. Very similar to the HTTPS lock 665 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,600 symbol. Exactly. 666 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,560 Right. So once you have those pieces, 667 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,400 you can then effectively treat this device very similar to a 668 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,080 hardware wallet like a Ledger. I would say that like most 669 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,200 people should not use this for cold storage like storing their 670 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,360 life savings on it. But even if even if the if we 671 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,280 like prove that supply chain and everything else and audits the 672 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,320 trust was as secure as a Ledger, you still need to get into this 673 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,920 like idea that I have like my cold wallet which is my savings 674 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,080 account and that has air gap security and this is my hot 675 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,360 wallet. But I use day-to-day and I use 676 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,920 it for talking to applications and that if I lose my wallet 677 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,480 it's not catastrophic right? Right. 678 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,400 Right, right. No, I think, I think it's very 679 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,960 important. I mean the the thing about it 680 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,040 though is it is much While you should still have cold storage, 681 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,560 this is this is putting up a much higher bar. 682 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,280 A warm wallet is at least not remote shut off able very 683 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,800 trivially right. Exactly hacked. 684 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,840 But it's like it's still far more secure than the status pro. 685 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,720 And you know there's something else you said by the way which 686 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,960 is I think really important. I don't want to skip over when 687 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,480 you said restoring the 1st amendment and the 4th Amendment 688 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,040 right. I actually wrote an article on 689 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,280 this called Bitcoin and Civilization. 690 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,680 That's actually the the domestic policy version. 691 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,560 And then also, you know, the, you know, an article for foreign 692 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,040 policy and the international policy version. 693 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,000 But to your point, free speech, how are you going to do it? 694 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,440 Well, you need to actually encrypted speech. 695 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,600 And how do you have protection from search and seizure? 696 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,160 The TSA is like patting everybody down, searching 697 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,960 everybody without warrant. Well, encryption restores your 698 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,680 ability to walk around without search and seizure, especially 699 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,880 in those countries that don't have even those traditions of 700 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,120 civil liberties, you know, unfortunately in a many places 701 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,239 around the world. So we're basically wherever 702 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,480 there's a phone, we're parachuting in civil liberties 703 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,360 as well Right now the only thing I would maybe added on what you 704 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,920 said is I do believe that what that does is it gives people the 705 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,679 ability to opt out of you know, like bad states, you know, 706 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,080 failed states, surveillance states. 707 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,239 I think the next step is going to be them opting in to good 708 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,679 jurisdictions. And I I think we're both you 709 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,440 know, in a sense pro civilization because that that's 710 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,760 actually the third bit in in in my book that I was like the 711 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,000 least popular word in the world is re centralization. 712 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,760 You know because the people who are currently running 713 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,199 centralized systems are like why aren't those OK for you And the 714 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,560 people who are pro decentralization are like why 715 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,480 would you want to re centralized. 716 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,480 That's where we're escaping from. 717 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,040 But the way I kind of think about it is, you know, 718 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,200 decentralization is like hitting the fire alarm. 719 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,000 You know, everybody runs out the building and in different 720 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,320 directions, but then they want to like a regroup at the like, 721 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,960 you know, the the union point, right. 722 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,600 And maybe not in exactly the same way, but you know, you you 723 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,080 need to have those sovereign individuals, they they unbundle 724 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,720 from the system that's failing them. 725 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,360 They use the civil rights, the property rights that the crypto 726 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,960 phone delivers to do that right. And it's really both. 727 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,960 It is, I mean it's like, you know, punk 6529, you know, on 728 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,040 Twitter, right. She has this really great thread 729 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,120 which actually expresses that so clearly, which is most civil 730 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,600 rights don't exist in practice without property rights. 731 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,000 They are basically the same like you want to buy a sign to 732 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,120 protest you need some money, right. 733 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,760 You know, almost all kinds of things. 734 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,920 If you can shut off somebody's banking, you can basically like 735 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,160 throttle them and they don't have you know the cost of 736 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,280 speech. If you raise it too high, they 737 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,560 don't actually have freedom of speech, right. 738 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,320 So the sort of so the the left libertarian, the right 739 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080 libertarian have something very strong in common here, you know. 740 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,280 Right. And so, so putting that 741 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,000 together, basically that sovereign individual as a civil 742 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,000 rights and property rights that are restored in my view 743 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,960 protected by the crypto phone can then bundle with other 744 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,800 people to have a sovereign collective where now they can 745 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,240 actually because they have property rights, they can do 746 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,080 collective goods together because they have civil rights, 747 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,240 they can speak freely together and they can come up with a 748 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,480 polity that suits them. Go ahead, let me know your 749 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,600 thoughts on that. These are like the freely 750 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,200 associated communes that like Mikhail Bacunin dreamed of. 751 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,760 Like there's no, there's no oppressive state. 752 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,320 Everyone associates at their own will, they bring whatever they 753 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,080 can and everyone kind of works together and next it. 754 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,080 Yeah, well, so, so, but it was so it's funny, there's there's 755 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,760 that utopian version, but it's actually the actual version. 756 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,760 And the actual version is like mid 1800s America. 757 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,080 So it's called the The Communistic Societies of the 758 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,760 United States is a book by this guy Charles Nordhoff and he goes 759 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,600 through and for example like the Oneida commune in in upstate New 760 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,840 York was actually a group of people because there's all this 761 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,840 land, right? So people could just go to 762 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,960 wherever piece of land and if they liked it, they stayed. 763 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,880 And if they didn't like it, they'd apply to another 764 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,200 community and they'd move there. And some of these things failed, 765 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,760 but some of them really worked. And like Oneida today is 766 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,880 actually the name of like a glassware manufacturer, as you 767 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,720 might be aware. But back in the day it was like 768 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:06,280 a, it was like an opt in society where there's enough geography 769 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,000 And actually the Kibbutz's in Israel were also kind of like 770 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,640 this. And some of them now today have 771 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,640 become like big companies like Netaphime is like an 772 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,480 agricultural thing. So other reason I say that is 773 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,960 people there is the utopian idealistic version that doesn't 774 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,160 actually get anywhere but they're actually have been 775 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,040 successful experiments in opt in living of which arguably the 776 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,200 United States is one of the best where you know it's only 4% of 777 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,200 the world. Most of people who came here 778 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,400 came here voluntarily of course you know since the slaves 779 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,120 notwithstanding and the American cetera that's important. 780 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,400 But like let's say 90 percent, 85% of the population came 781 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,200 voluntarily and it did build something great. 782 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,360 It is an opt in society. Of course there's lots of other 783 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,560 dimensions to it but that that is something. 784 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,520 So the only reason I just say that this otherwise people will 785 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,520 think oh Bhaji, just so unrealistic and utopian. 786 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,080 But you're right there's there is the bacoon in aspect but 787 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,480 there's also the American aspect. 788 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,240 There's the there. There's a realistic aspect. 789 00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:00,320 Go ahead. And so like YFO, and I think is 790 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,720 the engineering aspect of the phone for PKI is just really, 791 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:08,960 really obvious this this device already has the hardware to 792 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,160 support it, like where Apple and Google store your biometric 793 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,560 scans. It's in the secure element, like 794 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,280 when you do Apple Pay, that's a trusted display and nobody else 795 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,360 can fake it. And like all this stuff already 796 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,680 exists. So we've taken basically stock 797 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,880 Android builds like worked with like an OEM, and five engineers 798 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,960 like made the changes to enable cryptographic signing in this 799 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,760 device. This is, I'm honestly, I'm so 800 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,120 happy you're doing this. And actually, you know, the 801 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,560 thing I hadn't connected until just now is I was like, you 802 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,720 know, phone's pretty ambitious and you guys have shipped it and 803 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,040 it seems to work. And then I realized your 804 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,680 Qualcomm background is probably helpful in this and cut in terms 805 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,920 of, you know, it's like knowing what to turn and who to talk to 806 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,160 and so and so forth. Is that correct? 807 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,240 Like, yeah. I think understanding the scope 808 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,840 of the problem like we were able to minimize it to like we need 809 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,440 the smallest change inside the the trust zone to support this. 810 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,480 It's not going to take a team of 100 people. 811 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,000 Take 5 and you can work with any OEM to enable it. 812 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,680 Wow, that's go ahead. If you're saying I'm. 813 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,200 I'm really psyched by this. And that means that like this 814 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,920 technology, like we, we have a really good relationship with 815 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,280 like the Google folks and like it runs all the Google services. 816 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,560 There's no, like objections on their side, like, oh, you can't 817 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,080 do this or something like that. It's just crypto's really, 818 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,520 really small. There's not a like. 819 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,640 I would imagine that like the number of Twitter users that 820 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,720 have enabled the NFT search is probably under fifty 100,000. 821 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,760 Like that have that have. And like when you look at 822 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,520 Twitter, it's like 300 million people to them. 823 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,240 Like, OK, crypto's a buzzword. We can enable this feature and 824 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:48,520 do a whole bunch of work to support self custody or 825 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,840 whatever, and then only 100,000 people often do it. 826 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,200 It's a failure. Well, so here's the thing. 827 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,440 Actually, I think that that is going to be pretty important for 828 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,960 them in the future and here's why 100%, right? 829 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,920 So, So like lots of things are like this where like for 830 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,720 example, crypto kitties, you know, it was like this small 831 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,920 experiment NFT thing in 2017. It was like a little bubble. 832 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,400 And then NFTS became a huge thing. 833 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,600 And then they crashed, but they crashed back down to a much 834 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:15,680 higher level than they were before. 835 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,560 One thing, for example, there's an app salon app thing. 836 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,880 It's called Glow, right? Which you're probably familiar 837 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,680 with, right? And you can just take a photo of 838 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,920 something in NFT. People think, oh, that's so 839 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,800 stupid. What are you? 840 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,520 The answer is, it's not just OK Yeah, you can sell it, maybe, or 841 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:32,840 whatever. They're thinking about NFTS 842 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,720 speculative art. I'm thinking of it as a crypto 843 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:38,320 instrument. It's a crypto camera that at 844 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,800 least that person at that time can assert on chain that this 845 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,120 thing was photographed by this device and maybe you include a 846 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,120 device signature with it and there's things you could do 847 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,040 maybe even in like a hardware fingerprint or something. 848 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,240 Why is it so important? Because AI is coming at least 849 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,240 mitigate them, right. And so that code that Twitter 850 00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,640 has for you know code pass for handling NFT is it may be 851 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,280 something where you have a check mark knowledge just on the 852 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,440 person but on the image that it came from a crypto camera and 853 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,040 you can actually show it's a it's a it's supply chain like 854 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,520 it's digital supply chain. It came back from this block at 855 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,360 this time. And that doesn't mean, by the 856 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,560 way to be clear that doesn't mean it's necessarily 100% real. 857 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,280 It just means at least you can have some some things you know 858 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:18,640 about it. You know some of the metadata, 859 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,360 some of the China custody, it had to have been faked by this 860 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,840 guy at this time, you know on this chain. 861 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,120 And that narrows it down a bit because with that person who had 862 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,840 the motive to fake it, you know. So hey, I love your thoughts on 863 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,840 something like that so. So I yeah absolutely 100% agree 864 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,800 with you. I think like in the post product 865 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,400 market fit crypto world like every company is going to have 866 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,200 to have some interface to crypto and like. 867 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,400 But the the hard problem for them right now is that like the 868 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,200 number of active users with PKI is actually pretty small. 869 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,000 You have a bunch of people that hold Bitcoin, a bunch of people 870 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,840 that may have traded on exchanges and just buy and hold 871 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,280 it. But like when you look at the 872 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,800 number of active transacting users in NFTS and all these 873 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,360 other stats when you combine them like Open C's global total 874 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,840 number of users that have used Open C is around 5,000,000 875 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,320 number. I didn't argue. 876 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:10,920 I have an argument on this historically. 877 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,560 No, I understand. Yeah, I understand. 878 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,080 And I'm not. I'm not just one thing that I've 879 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,560 thought about. And this observation isn't 880 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,080 original to me. I think Dixon has made it. 881 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,600 Other folks have made it. But, you know, social media 882 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,760 arose where it had lots and lots of users. 883 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,440 But then for a long time, people said, how's this thing going to 884 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,400 make money, right. And for example, Instagram had 885 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,480 tons and tons of use, tons of use cases. 886 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,960 And when it was acquired in 2012, you know Jon Stewart 887 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,800 because it had no revenue at the time, by the way, it was 888 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,960 actually a huge huge coin flip by by Zuck at Facebook was not, 889 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,840 you know they only had like 4 billion in cash. 890 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,840 They're a few weeks away from IPO. 891 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,520 Facebook itself, it was questionable as where they're 892 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,920 going to make money on mobile. They spend a billion dollars 893 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,280 acquiring Instagram. He didn't consult the board. 894 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,200 Now today it's $100 billion company. 895 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,840 Everybody thinks it's such a genius move. 896 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,480 Obvious move at the time, antitrust. 897 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,160 It was very non obvious move then right. 898 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,000 Point is Instagram had zero revenue but had lots of use and 899 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,720 crypto has in some ways the opposite emergence mode from 900 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,920 social media where it generates tons and tons of money and it's 901 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,440 a use cases that are second as opposed to social media which 902 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,200 was use cases first, revenue second, right. 903 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,720 So that's kind of 1 angle on your argument. 904 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:19,520 Maybe have some thoughts on that? 905 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,480 And then that's actually like, you almost led me to the 906 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,520 opportunity for us. OK, great. 907 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,400 How can we, how can, like a tiny startup with like 5 engineers 908 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,280 messing around with Android take on like like Google and Apple? 909 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,360 Because like the thing that we're really delivering here is 910 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,600 the PKI for users, But also an app, a DAP store, like an 911 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,680 application store for developers that does not have the fee model 912 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,960 that the Google and Apple stores have and does not have the 913 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,400 restrictions on treating PKI as a feature on the device. 914 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,280 For token gating, for NFTS, for minting these NFTS, you know, 915 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,720 and like submitting them to a chain and selling them. 916 00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:02,960 Like that's basically prohibited in both Google and Apple like 917 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,240 and that's that's kind of like the feature set. 918 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,760 And the opportunity for us is that while crypto has a small 919 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,360 user base, it's probably the spendiest user base on the 920 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,720 Internet. Like I would say it's with it's 921 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,520 like the point 1% of people that like generate the most like 922 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,160 volumes, the most trading, the most like financial activity on 923 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,080 the Internet right now are the crypto users. 924 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,760 So if we can get this device to 2550 thousand of those users, 925 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,640 that's actually better distribution channel for devs 926 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,040 than the big app stores are today. 927 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,520 Anyone that's building in crypto would rather get their 928 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,640 application to 50,000 active web. 929 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,320 Three people that have used Open C or Magic Eden on a day-to-day 930 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,720 basis than try to like find some way to sneak in a feature in the 931 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,200 apps in the Apple App Store behind the scenes. 932 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:54,920 There's a couple of questions on that. 933 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,680 AI assume you do. You did have multi wallets on 934 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,160 there, so it doesn't just hold salt, it holds ETH and BTC and 935 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:01,640 so on. Right. 936 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,920 So, so like V0 right now we just why the reason we shipped is 937 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,760 that sure. You just cut cut teachers but 938 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,960 but it's on the road map to add. And like there. 939 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,240 It's open source and we have like external contributors 940 00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:16,600 working on adding ETH support. There's actually an EVM 941 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,560 equivalent runtime called NEON on Solana which requires ETH 942 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,600 support. So like, even if we were just 943 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,080 like trying to box it out, like it would eventually happen 944 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,560 because all this stuff is interoperable. 945 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,640 I'm glad you're taking that approach because I think once 946 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,520 the Solana phone holds both Ethan BTC it may maybe it's not 947 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,000 a maybe it's not a exactly a blocking requirement or 948 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,680 something like that. I think it's like worth checking 949 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,520 out even now. And that's a software upgrade. 950 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,720 So you could get it now and try to. 951 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:50,640 But The thing is that basically this is I'll, I'll make a couple 952 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:51,960 of points. These are obvious points to you 953 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,520 maybe not points that folks know in the ecosystem web development 954 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,320 was actually held back through most of the 2000s by Internet 955 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,720 Explorer. Absolutely like right. 956 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,080 That whole time period has been erased from memory. 957 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:05,880 Right. Everyone thinks oh go ahead. 958 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,560 You remember I remember it. It right. 959 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,840 It took literally like an engineer of Google to, like, 960 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,680 accidentally deprecate Internet Explorer sex and post a link 961 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,920 like, hey, update your shitty, shitty browser. 962 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,560 And like, it wasn't a peon that made that decision. 963 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,440 Or a director. It was like there was like a 964 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,640 fire in Google management. Holy shit, who who pushed this 965 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,240 feature? Yes, well, it was. 966 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,680 It's something where like that whole story is worth telling. 967 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,480 And the reason I just say is because web development as we 968 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,360 currently know it was held back by Microsoft because they beat 969 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,240 Netscape. So just for those who don't 970 00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:46,160 remember this, you know, because they're too young or in the 90s, 971 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,600 Bill Gates saw the Internet thing coming to his credit, OK 972 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,160 And Netscape had just had their huge IPO, I think 1995 and 973 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,840 Netscape Navigator was coming and he decided, OK, we're going 974 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,080 to ship a browser, we're going to bundle it with the operating 975 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,480 system and we're going to a 68 Netscape. 976 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,440 And and basically that's what they did. 977 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,480 And that was actually part of the basis for the antitrust 978 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,440 trial in the late 90s and early 2000s was they were bundling 979 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,440 their browser with the OS. And it was, but it was worth it 980 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,840 for them in a sense because they took all the revenue out of the 981 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,040 space. Netscape did sell to AOL, it was 982 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,280 like, but but basically what happened was once Microsoft had 983 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,800 killed Netscape as a competitor into Explorer, had like 90 984 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,840 something percent share. And they basically just like 985 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,760 kind of stopped development after that, right, Because they 986 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,560 didn't want the web to become a big thing. 987 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,960 They wanted everybody to run on Microsoft Windows. 988 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,400 Now at that time in the early 2000s there were two 989 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,400 alternatives to Windows which were A Apple and Mac OS which is 990 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,920 based on BSD and B Linux. And Linux was a server set 991 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,600 technology that had an ethics around it, open source and 992 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:45,800 whatnot. Which we forget today because 993 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,240 Linux is now so commercial by the time is a big thing and 994 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:50,040 Apple was still a shadow of what it is today. 995 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,560 It was pre, it was even pre iPod, pre iPod, pre iPod, let 996 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,240 alone iPhone or iPad or the monster it is, right. 997 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,320 So Microsoft was very dominant in the early 2000s and it was 998 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,400 basically choke pointing the entire web. 999 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,960 And Google just bided its time because it didn't want to get 1000 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,640 killed like Netscape and you know, just did search, search, 1001 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,040 search, search, search all the way through 2004 focused on that 1002 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,960 completely over six years. And by the way, people brought 1003 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,200 off the Internet afterthe.com crash, right. 1004 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,520 For years. This wasn't, it wasn't, it was 1005 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,240 like so out of the news that it wasn't even something that 1006 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,760 people attacked, right. You're just thought of as 1007 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,120 obviously, you know, a failure. Whatever. 1008 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,360 They're all focused on Iraq. They're all focused on 1009 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,120 terrorism. That was the 2000s, right? 1010 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,000 Even in 2009, somebody wrote this article about, like, the 1011 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,200 power centers in the US and they didn't list Silicon Valley among 1012 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,640 it. OK? 1013 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,080 They had like, you know, the Pentagon and they had Wall 1014 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,520 Street. And all this stuff did not list 1015 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,560 Silicon Valley because there's still gadgets. 1016 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,600 It was like, you know, maybe you have your iMac and there's 1017 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,120 Microsoft Windows and that Facebook was still in the 2000, 1018 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,600 2009 still, like, for college students, all that stuff was 1019 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,720 just not even there. Point being that it was only in 1020 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,240 2004 with Gmail, which actually pioneered Ajax. 1021 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,520 In 2005, Google Maps. And it took Google's engineers, 1022 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,920 which were the best in the world to figure out this backdoor. 1023 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,160 Intra Explorer left his backdoor right for XML HTP request. 1024 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,600 And then, you know, Firefox started gaining some traction in 1025 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,520 the mid 2000s. And then Chrome came out. 1026 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,320 I think it was only like, what O8 or O9? 1027 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,280 Is that right? Was that right? 1028 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,040 And HTML5 was like the late 2000s and HTML5 was this 1029 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,800 exciting thing. Oh, you can do the web again. 1030 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,680 But that was like 10 years from the.com crash in 2000 to 1031 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,320 actually being able to do web apps, kind of sorta in 2010. 1032 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,160 And now the iPhone App Store only came out in O8. 1033 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,840 All of this stuff is like extremely recent. 1034 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,480 And so the reason I bring all that up is I think the, you 1035 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,520 know, the Internet only came back by public acclamation as an 1036 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,960 important thing in February of 2013. 1037 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:50,360 And that's when the tech lash began. 1038 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,400 But it's basically about 12 years betweenthe.com crash in 1039 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,320 2013 before tech was taken seriously. 1040 00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,240 Again, the reason I say this is a big part in my view of what's 1041 00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:02,920 being holding back, people are like, oh, where are the 1042 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,000 applications for crypto? And so my first answer to that 1043 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,320 is with our applications, we've got digital gold, we've got 1044 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,120 crowdfunding, we've got wire transfers, we've got setting up 1045 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:11,200 bank accounts, we've got a lot of stuff. 1046 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,080 It's like the what are the Romans ever done for us? 1047 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,200 There's all these things, right? The 2nd is, well, block space 1048 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:17,680 has been a constraint for a long time. 1049 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,440 And so the apps that are being developed for those that 1050 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,640 minimize use of block space, like Bitcoin, just hold for a 1051 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,240 long time, right? Where theorem is bind to the 1052 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:27,720 crowdfund and then still hold for a long time, it's minimal on 1053 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,200 chain, not only now with what you guys are doing and what 1054 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,600 other chains are doing is block space, much less of a 1055 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,640 constraint, right. So that's the second thing. 1056 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,720 And the third thing is what you're doing with Solana phone 1057 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,560 because Apple as you know it was just like ridiculous for many 1058 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,440 years in terms of filtering apps and you couldn't do crypto stuff 1059 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,200 on the phone and they've gotten a little better on that now. 1060 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,640 But it's like a it's like one step forward, 2 steps back 1061 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,200 sometimes and now you've got a phone which is totally unlocked 1062 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:53,840 and she can do all the crypto stuff on there. 1063 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:55,800 So. So those three things I think 1064 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,880 are why like Salon has like this really interesting mobile app 1065 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,920 culture now those things have all like come together now 1066 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:01,760 finally. Go ahead. 1067 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,360 Yeah, that's my take on it. May be idiosyncratic. 1068 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,320 There's like a tidbit of history there that I think, at least in 1069 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,600 my memory, this is kind of how I remember it. 1070 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:17,000 The web sucked until the iPhone released and Apple decided to 1071 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:23,280 actually fork KHTML into Webkit, which is the open source like 1072 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,200 web browser that was built for KDE which is part of the desktop 1073 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,400 suit for Linux. And this is like the people like 1074 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,360 at the time I was like a huge Linux cert. 1075 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,680 I ran Linux and like the year of Linux and desktop was always 1076 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,360 going to be next year. Yeah, yeah, it's actually 1077 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,160 arguably come. It's actually come because 1078 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,920 Android is a new desktop and that's mobile Linux, right? 1079 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:44,640 But but but it came in a different brand. 1080 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,560 Go. Ahead and and like the Apple 1081 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,400 engineers working in Webkit and make and that thing being open 1082 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,360 source is when Google then forked Webkit and made and made 1083 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,600 pro and that was like Google and Apple both working together to 1084 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,120 kind of like build a browser that was equivalent to Internet 1085 00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:06,880 Explorer and then like could kind of drive the web to like 1086 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,280 next generation like these dynamic application environment 1087 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,320 was like I think what saved the web And there's kind of a deep 1088 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,400 irony there that now like both Google and Apple run these like 1089 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:22,640 app stores that are anti web. Arguably that one in some ways 1090 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,360 like neuter the web and prevent these like rich applications 1091 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,560 running in like a browser only environment. 1092 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,360 So we're like back full circle. We're back full circle. 1093 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,240 And actually, I mean I give a lot of credit, immense credit to 1094 00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:38,000 Satya for turning around Microsoft and so on. 1095 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,000 But we may literally be in this weird history repeats thing with 1096 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,400 Microsoft about to like choke points. 1097 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,240 Yeah. The entire tech ecosystem 1098 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,120 through an API running on it's servers. 1099 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,640 Do we want that again? I mean come on. 1100 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,840 Right. You know, like with all the 1101 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,040 props, I hope they make tons of money. 1102 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,080 I just don't want them to have the same control that they did. 1103 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:54,800 Right. And. 1104 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,280 But but yeah, your point is very good because basically it took 1105 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,320 Google and Apple and Firefox. Right. 1106 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,240 All I mean you know like a really good start because 1107 00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:04,720 Firefox had Blake Ross who's like a super genius. 1108 00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:06,480 You know like browser developer like this. 1109 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,480 You remember him, right. He actually, I don't know what 1110 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,840 he's doing now, but he's like an early engineer on Facebook also 1111 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,240 and he like coded Firefox when he's like a teenager. 1112 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,480 So Blake Ross at Firefox and and Google and Apple, all three of 1113 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,800 them took years before finally IE 6's market share came below 1114 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,320 50%. I don't remember what year that 1115 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,480 was, but it was like I feel as late 2000, that's my guess, 1116 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:28,720 we'll go, we'll kind of look it up. 1117 00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:30,360 I might be wrong but I I feel like that right? 1118 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,160 Yeah, I think you're right. Right. 1119 00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,360 So so basically and then and only then could all the stuff 1120 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,720 that Paul Graham was talking about with web apps. 1121 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,880 NY Combinator. Only then late 2000s early 20 1122 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,760 tens could that stuff finally become feasible. 1123 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,720 Right And and and even like Netflix for example streaming 1124 00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:49,520 Netflix House of Cards I think was only 20, 2012, 2013, right. 1125 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,200 They were doing mail order DVD. The web just didn't work for 1126 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,800 like the the reason I just say all this is people have 1127 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,360 retconned that because it works today. 1128 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:03,800 They think it instantly worked. And This is why I think like PKI 1129 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,320 is going and I don't know if it's going to take like Solana, 1130 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,360 like SMS showing that there's now developer traction and devs 1131 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,600 are shipping apps and making real revenues to get like the 1132 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,320 Google and Apple to change like my my. 1133 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,600 My kind of bet is that like in the in the best case we succeed, 1134 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:29,200 we get 1 to 2% like market share of like global users using SMS. 1135 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,200 And these are the web 3 users. And all of a sudden developers 1136 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,240 that are shipping applications to this user base are generating 1137 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:39,880 more revenue than they do in the other app stores. 1138 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,800 And that's going to be the inflection point that forces the 1139 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,040 big companies to be like, OK, we got to like change your business 1140 00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,480 model, which is going to be really painful because the the 1141 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,840 careers built around that business model, right, right and 1142 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,320 and support PKI. It's it's funny. 1143 00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,360 I think, well, you've you've done a very good job at Solana. 1144 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,960 You have a, you have an Instagram deal you have a 1145 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,440 YouTube deal right. It just, you know Twitter's got 1146 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,480 NFT support and so on. So you've done a good job of 1147 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,560 interfacing with the big tech companies with the open minded 1148 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,960 people there who at least are putting a a toe in the water 1149 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,600 right. Reddit also has NFT is now on 1150 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,720 Discord is you know they had some pushback last year but 1151 00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:26,160 they're I think gradually adding some crypto stuff and so on on. 1152 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,040 And and I'm also starting to see apps like like Luma for example, 1153 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:35,360 that have you know Ethereum and Solana support or like Spatial 1154 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:36,880 dot IO has some like crypto support. 1155 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,120 So you're starting to see it not as like necessarily the the be 1156 00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,600 all and end all of the app but as a feature in the app which 1157 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,920 you can log in with Metamask or you know Phantom or Google. 1158 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,720 Right. So that's like just starting to 1159 00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:54,400 happen, but it's happening kind of out of public sight in some 1160 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,160 ways, only like the hardcore, we're seeing it go ahead. 1161 00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:00,320 And these are the, the small stages of adoption and I think 1162 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,080 these are the kind of the, the really like, you know, it's like 1163 00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,160 really painful to 0 to want to start up, it's really painful to 1164 00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:10,760 0 to want to make an ecosystem. Yeah. 1165 00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:16,040 So like a whole like new programming paradigm is is also 1166 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,480 really really harsh. Oh oh, and Rust and Rust, by the 1167 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,200 way. Yeah, I like Rust, but Rust also 1168 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,880 adds a degree of a degree of difficulty to some extent, 1169 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,040 right? It's great, great language. 1170 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,560 But the you know, it's funny though. 1171 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,560 One thing is one of my theses, I love your thoughts. 1172 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:37,080 And this is after mid 2017, I realized that we weren't going 1173 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,880 to have another trillion dollar American tech company. 1174 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,480 The reason is the backlash against Uber, You know, backlash 1175 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:46,800 against Uber. But if Theorem was going 1176 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,280 vertical at the time, I realized, OK, we're going to 1177 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,040 have the American tech ecosystem, we'll have the 1178 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,320 Chinese ecosystem and then we'll have the global ecosystem where 1179 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,800 the only other thing that can get to global scale will be 1180 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,280 those things that have crypto backends. 1181 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,040 And actually that is, you know, the, you know, in a sense, the 1182 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,720 competitors to Google and Facebook and so on are actually 1183 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,720 already in plain sight. They are Bitcoin and Ethereum 1184 00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:14,240 and Solana and you know, the basically the things that are 1185 00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:16,760 built around those chains as opposed to companies, it's like 1186 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,760 communities and currencies as opposed to companies. 1187 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,440 I love your thoughts on that. I think that the maybe I'm like 1188 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,880 too much of like an anarchist. I think it's going to look more 1189 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,880 of like smaller companies that are very hyper optimized for 1190 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:38,120 their user base that I think it's going to be very hard to 1191 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,400 build a global brand that scales up. 1192 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,200 Maybe protocols can do it. But protocols only I think 1193 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:45,520 that's. Right. 1194 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,880 But but it's going to be like local companies that are like 1195 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,320 hey I'm using Ethereum and people have some trust to to 1196 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:55,160 that brand or I'm using Solana or I'm using like this protocol 1197 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,760 for matching drivers to to passengers. 1198 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,760 And these small companies all around the world can all 1199 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,880 coordinate around this one protocol and use that to 1200 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,760 bootstrap their like initial user base, initial like set of 1201 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,360 drivers and stuff and like because like I think what what 1202 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,080 chains provide are like basically marketplaces and 1203 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:20,440 that's a very small thing but very powerful thing because the 1204 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,320 web runs in a marketplace, it's the ad exchange marketplace. 1205 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,880 Everything runs in a marketplace somewhere, right. 1206 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,160 Like when you're buying stuff, somebody has to match it with a 1207 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,280 seller. And like having these decent 1208 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,240 like decentralized and spared marketplaces with branded 1209 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,240 protocols I think could help bootstrap these like small 1210 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,840 communities that are like now running effectively like Uber 1211 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,080 but now Uber that's built on top of a protocol. 1212 00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,120 That protocol may not actually be as extractive as a trillion 1213 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,400 dollar big tech Corp. You know, you mentioned 1214 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,840 something which makes me think of the fat protocol thesis from 1215 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,720 like a few years ago. The thing is, the FAT protocol 1216 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,760 thesis I think is in the long term may be partially true. 1217 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:06,040 We may see some app chains, but I think in the short term it is 1218 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,000 not true because what will happen is you'll put the minimum 1219 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,400 necessary state on chain, correct. 1220 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,520 And I think this is the part you know, Moxie Marlon Spike is a 1221 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,680 great engineer, you know, did Signal and so on. 1222 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,120 He had this post a while back, about a year ago or so, where 1223 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,160 he's like, it feels like all the Web Three stuff. 1224 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:23,720 It's just trying to put it's good. 1225 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,480 It's trying to have the absolute minimum amount of 1226 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,000 decentralization. And like, you're absolutely 1227 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,720 right because block space is the key technical constraint of the 1228 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,560 whole thing. Just like bandwidth was a key 1229 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,600 technical constraint of the 2000s, right. 1230 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,080 So like in the 2000s, the whole name of the game was minimizing 1231 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,720 bandwidth. That's why Netflix did Mailer or 1232 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,680 DVD, right? That's why Google did search for 1233 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,360 a long time, because it was just keyword in 10 links out, right. 1234 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,560 That's why Amazon had a card, basically a catalog interface. 1235 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,440 And you know, AWS came only much later. 1236 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,920 And it's because they were minimizing, you know, like 1237 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,440 bandwidth use. Because the early Internet, most 1238 00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:58,880 people didn't have T-bond connections. 1239 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:00,680 Even if Facebook, you probably know the story. 1240 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,120 You know why Facebook started at Harvard? 1241 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,600 I don't. Because like people that tried 1242 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,120 to do social networks before like 6° and so on and that 1243 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,960 didn't have photos, because people didn't have enough 1244 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,360 digital cameras and have high enough. 1245 01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,960 I mean think about that time, right? 1246 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,160 Like digital cameras couldn't be taken for granted, right? 1247 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,160 And most people didn't even have that many digital camera photos. 1248 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,920 And yet to have a special camera that would like go with some 1249 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,920 like printer, cable like thing to your computer said like 11 1250 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,160 digital camera photo. And at Harvard you had just like 1251 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,680 you talked about like the 50,000 crypto users as like the 1252 01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:35,040 starting base for something. Harvard had that group of like 1253 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,640 in in 2004, 2003, these relatively elite users that had 1254 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,920 T1 connections, they're well off enough to have digital cameras. 1255 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:43,560 They're young and early adopters. 1256 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,280 And that was the hothouse environment where like this 1257 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,360 could take off sooner. And then going to colleges, it 1258 01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,120 was not simply a strategic thing. 1259 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,080 It was like an act of necessity. I mean, even in 2009, like 1260 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,040 something like only 5% of India was online, right? 1261 01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,400 So like five years before then, you couldn't have had Facebook 1262 01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:05,120 in India, right? And so I think in the same way 1263 01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:09,160 the strategy you have where you get 50,100 thousand Solana 1264 01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:13,360 mobile users is the same emergent strategy for, you know, 1265 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,600 starting at Harvard or starting in San Francisco, but rather 1266 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:17,280 than starting in a geography, you're starting with the global 1267 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,560 community. Getting that like small user 1268 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,440 base is is very counterintuitive like go to market I think for 1269 01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,400 like phone companies and I worked on the Amazon Fire the 1270 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,360 Facebook like a whole and like the Windows Metro phone at 1271 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,200 Qualcomm. We were like like hey this big 1272 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,720 company is going to build a smartphone and we throw a bunch 1273 01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,960 of engineers at it and I would be one of those like working on 1274 01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,520 subcomponent very similar to like that being lucky being at 1275 01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,720 Harvard to start Facebook. If if we can get if we can be 1276 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,240 that lucky and get the phone to the the crypto users that are 1277 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,800 the the number one like I would say spenders on the Internet and 1278 01:01:54,800 --> 01:02:01,320 the daily active PKI users. And if we get enough of them 1279 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,520 that's going to be I think a very competitive marketplace for 1280 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,600 developers can does build applications that are like so 1281 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,280 high value to users that somebody will decide OK I'm 1282 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:18,120 buying an SMS enabled phone that because of this application and 1283 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,760 if we see that like we see actually somebody doing that 1284 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,680 that means that we actually have product market fit for crypto. 1285 01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,920 The this idea of that like PKI and the interaction between PKI 1286 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,280 and a public blockchain, whatever that data structure 1287 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,480 that's in it's interacting with is now so valuable that users 1288 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,920 are willing to like make a purchasing decision. 1289 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,840 I think that that's going to be like the big unlock and that's 1290 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,960 the big unknown because I think while we're there a bit unlike 1291 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,000 NF, TS and like crypto trading and stuff like that. 1292 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,120 I would say my in my mind the only kind of non like more 1293 01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:56,200 consumer ask use case that we've seen over the last year was step 1294 01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:01,840 in which is like crypto like and that had like a breakout but 1295 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,560 like not a sustainable one. But like we need we need to see 1296 01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,040 more attempts at this. Like this is a consumer 1297 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,000 application. It's got it's using crypto Rails 1298 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,200 and PKI for like user identity and crypto Rails for finance and 1299 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,520 like whatever else. But it has like real value to 1300 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,720 consumers in the like the real economy outside of crypto itself 1301 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,120 and and I think I think part of that is now enabled. 1302 01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:30,520 By block space being cheap enough that it's a transaction 1303 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,080 and and that's relatively new that's like about a year old or 1304 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,000 so, right Technologically. You know one other thing by the 1305 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,120 way to your point is there's this post at you know the 1306 01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:43,240 network's called the Billion User Table by by John Stokes and 1307 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:48,240 he it's it's kind of good long form version of an argument that 1308 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:50,480 that I've discussed on Twitter and we've discussed with him. 1309 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,760 But it's basically that in the long term, I'm pretty sure that 1310 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,600 people will log in with their crypto account as opposed to, 1311 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,840 you know, Facebook, Google, etcetera, for the simple reason 1312 01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:06,160 that when you log in with your Solana name or your theory name, 1313 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:10,920 you have a balance, tada, right? That alone, you know, if you if 1314 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,400 you just had 10,000 users who logged into Facebook and all 1315 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,800 you've got is their profile photo and their name, or you 1316 01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,280 have 10,000 users that logged in that have nonzero balances. 1317 01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,040 And then more than that, they have the whole vector of all 1318 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,560 NFTS, whatever else they've decided to share with the site, 1319 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:25,400 right. Because they've logged in with 1320 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,920 that particular name. You just like, you know, that's 1321 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,280 just a much more economically valuable user, right? 1322 01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,600 And you know, one way of thinking about it, you know, you 1323 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,880 mentioned a 50,100 thousand. Well, do you know what, for 1324 01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,960 example, do you know many people that Cayman Islands has like as 1325 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,600 a as a country, It's only like 68,000 people. 1326 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,920 That's believable. So. 1327 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,120 Yeah, that's kind of interesting, right? 1328 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:50,320 Estonia's only. A million people. 1329 01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,200 Like, there's a lot of countries. 1330 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,520 One thing I think, you know, it's a theme of the network, 1331 01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:56,680 said Book. And you know, the pod, just like 1332 01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,440 they're startups that punch way, way, way above their weight. 1333 01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:03,120 You know, like WhatsApp had 13 people, I don't know 55 people 1334 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,560 on Instagram had like 13 people. You know, to get to hundreds of 1335 01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,200 millions of users and you guys had five people to go and do the 1336 01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,160 Solana phone. We're taking a huge group of 1337 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:13,240 people, the small countries that punch way above their weight and 1338 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,320 they just do way more with a few 10s of thousands of people. 1339 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,600 I mean, the Cayman Islands is like a globally important thing, 1340 01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,000 right? Estonia is like pretty, pretty 1341 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:22,600 important given it's only like 1,000,000 people. 1342 01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,320 So I think actually it's not just I, I, I know you know this 1343 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,000 and I know you're saying this, but like it's not just a 1344 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,560 numerical base, it's kind of their commitment and influence. 1345 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,560 I do think that the kinds of applications that would run on 1346 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:37,880 the salon of phone, you know, one graph that has always stuck 1347 01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,240 with me. Have you seen the graph of 1348 01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,120 Facebook's user base and the smartphone install base? 1349 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,880 If you if you compare both of them, I believe that smartphones 1350 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,280 actually grew faster than Facebook, even though you had to 1351 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:54,360 pay money for smartphones. Like as useful as Facebook was. 1352 01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,320 And how big is Scott it, right? Smartphones were so ridiculously 1353 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,160 valuable to people, right? And so an interesting question 1354 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:07,160 will be, when would your crypto phone get so valuable that 1355 01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,840 people would pay for it? You know what is like the killer 1356 01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,320 app right? And it'll you know it might be I 1357 01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,240 can I can think of negative models, right. 1358 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,120 I can think of negative stimuli things where there's you know 1359 01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:23,640 threatened or actual seizure or search of of things right. 1360 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,240 I want to think of positive things. 1361 01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,960 You know obviously the crypto economy right and tasks and 1362 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:31,680 other kinds of things. Maybe you can earn more within 1363 01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:33,960 that environment right. Maybe it's just like a crypto 1364 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,200 first environment you know like forecaster do that is it's a 1365 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,880 it's like in a sense it's like an Ethereum social network right 1366 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,480 Noster. So it's not it wasn't 1367 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,800 necessarily created for this purpose is like now becoming a 1368 01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,440 Bitcoin social network where it's got like lightning 1369 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,960 integration and ordinals ordinals are coming in. 1370 01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:51,880 Bitcoin is actually now much more interesting again from a 1371 01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:53,920 dev sample with Noster and ordinals right. 1372 01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,800 And then there'll be a Solana network maybe among these crypto 1373 01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,880 phones that seems like an obvious thing to do just like 1374 01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:02,680 other Solana users that integrating with other Solana 1375 01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,240 users right. So I so that may be just 1376 01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,760 something where to participate in the Solana crypto economy. 1377 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,600 That's maybe why you you you get that phone right. 1378 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,280 So maybe you don't actually lean out of it. 1379 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,720 You just grow the Solana country right. 1380 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,440 Let me maybe maybe disagree. Maybe you agree with that. 1381 01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:24,240 I I mostly agree with that. I think I think we we will see 1382 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,040 like these kind of like PKI interactions like start 1383 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:32,440 happening with applications that are like start built basically 1384 01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,400 like the complexity of like dealing with chain you're 1385 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,000 dealing with where the data structures are how the users log 1386 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,080 in. These are starting to get more 1387 01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,840 and more kind of melting away with libraries and developer 1388 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,560 tooling and like the PKI aspect of it. 1389 01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,680 Like from a user's perspective, like if they have this phone, 1390 01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,560 this the what the phone does is it provides secures, a seed 1391 01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,400 phrase. But then the wallets themselves 1392 01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,880 can connect to Ethereum, can connect to Solana, can connect 1393 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,000 to Bitcoin and whatever. And it's all based on the same 1394 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:03,880 seed phrase. And that's where your root 1395 01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,400 identity is generated from kind of going back to that Verisign 1396 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,720 world, that secure element inside the device is, are the 1397 01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:13,640 armed guards for the certificate. 1398 01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,160 And then you end up with like infinite. 1399 01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,439 Yeah. Better than armed guards, 1400 01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:21,640 because encryption, yeah. Or. 1401 01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,479 Identities that can be on any network and. 1402 01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:30,439 The tooling and like the being able to kind of like move value 1403 01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,560 and like move maybe like key points of like identity between 1404 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,040 them. That stuff is going to get 1405 01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:39,399 better and and simpler across like you know it's just time 1406 01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:41,760 progresses like on on all the major networks. 1407 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,240 We're kind of seeing some of that like you see like major 1408 01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,560 wallets like fandom start supporting multiple chains but 1409 01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,399 do it in a way that everything is derived from a single 1410 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,120 identity root and you have accounts that can be shared 1411 01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:59,680 between chains and like NF, TS that are associated with one. 1412 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,800 But you can understand proofs like for smart for like 1413 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,800 applications that are kind of becoming more agnostic. 1414 01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,520 Like I own this NFT, it may be on Solana, but it's AD God and 1415 01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,080 you guys are doing stuff on Etherium and stuff like that. 1416 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:17,359 So I'm really glad that you're. Thinking cross chain and multi 1417 01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:20,640 chain eventually even obviously you have to ship and so on but 1418 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,319 that actually I think you know like things like neon EPM 1419 01:09:23,319 --> 01:09:25,640 compatibility I think that's really good and positive some 1420 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,560 you know I have so I have a couple other things I want to 1421 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:32,760 talk to you about with the the phone one is just on like the 1422 01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,040 logistics of building it. Right. 1423 01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:38,120 The Cyanogen a long time ago they tried to fork Android and 1424 01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,880 they got I mean they're they're pretty good technically strong 1425 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,880 technically but they just didn't have like the business model for 1426 01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,720 it at the time. And then a bunch of Chinese 1427 01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,240 manufacturers successfully forked Android and like Xiaomi 1428 01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,080 being you know one of them And then one of the things Google 1429 01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,000 did is it sort of pushed more and more stuff into Google 1430 01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:58,520 services to kind of discourage that. 1431 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,720 So Android was initially very open and everyone like free ride 1432 01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:02,600 on Google and Google's like wait a second I didn't I didn't 1433 01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,880 really want you to do that. And so more and more stuff 1434 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,000 became like Google services where they didn't close Android 1435 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,640 source but they closed the state of the application and pushed it 1436 01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,520 server side. And the third was Facebook using 1437 01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,480 Android for Oculus Quest and of course, you know Facebook's a 1438 01:10:17,480 --> 01:10:19,360 big competitor of Google but they they found that that 1439 01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:22,440 operating system was a mobile OS that they could for can do 1440 01:10:22,440 --> 01:10:26,600 something with. So you know, I don't know. 1441 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:30,000 I mean like the it's interesting because iOS in a, in a sense is 1442 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,400 also built on BSc. But they have not made it 1443 01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:34,960 anywhere near not even not anywhere near they have not made 1444 01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,680 it publicly forkable at all. How did you know? 1445 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,720 How did you guys think about that in terms of those other 1446 01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,320 three that I mentioned like Cyanogen and the Chinese 1447 01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,600 manufacturers and and Facebook are all competing with Google, 1448 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,880 but you're you took a more cooperative approach, am am I 1449 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,120 correct about that? And this is for practical 1450 01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,080 reasons I use. Both my my Saga device and my 1451 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,560 iPhone. But even before I had the saga, 1452 01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,600 I was already using Google Maps and Gmail and and Chrome. 1453 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:06,040 So like you, you like, those are really pretty decent services 1454 01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:10,240 and I kind of know that they're taking my data, but that that's 1455 01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,240 just like competitively, I think it's really, really hard to 1456 01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:15,680 build products that are as good. But it's getting closer. 1457 01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,840 You start seeing like things like Hive Mapper builds an open 1458 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,160 data set for mapping and that's definitely going to end up being 1459 01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,280 competitive to Google Maps eventually. 1460 01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:29,880 I use signal like more often than I use iMessage, like my 1461 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,760 iMessage is filled up with spam for Oh yeah, for randos. 1462 01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:37,520 My signal I actually used to talk to like my friends and 1463 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:42,240 family on a day-to-day basis. So like that that stuff was 1464 01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,040 already naturally happening. At some point we'll get to 1465 01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,880 parity to where you have encryption first, like privacy 1466 01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:53,120 preserving applications that have the exact same properties 1467 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:57,040 as the Google applications, and then it won't really matter if 1468 01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:59,240 the Google's stuff is there anymore. 1469 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:06,960 And for now, my guess is that like the GMs licensing and OEM 1470 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,360 licensing is set up in a way due to about the Google mobile 1471 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,120 services, I don't know if it's set up because Google bull 1472 01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:18,280 trying to trying to do this. So yeah, so Skiff is actually. 1473 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:20,680 I'm not sure if they have Solana support. 1474 01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:22,440 They have Ethereum support, but they may add salon support at 1475 01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:24,160 some point. Skiff is worth looking at if you 1476 01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:28,120 haven't seen it, which is like doing Google Docs and Gmail with 1477 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,640 crypto login, right? And maybe they could add Solana 1478 01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,280 login and they're doing basic provable into an encryption and 1479 01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,880 so on, right? So something like that is a good 1480 01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,880 example of where you're talking about where you basically have 1481 01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,720 drop insurance for each thing and one of the reasons that 1482 01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,200 people might want this is you know Google is starting to do 1483 01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:51,080 things where you know it's it's this was this was just a demo 1484 01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:52,800 but it was posted on Twitter. You may have seen this where 1485 01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:56,360 landlord was being auto completed as being offensive to 1486 01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:00,680 somebody and you know just like I don't know there's stuff like 1487 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,920 that where you just might not agree with what Google is doing 1488 01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:05,840 server side. They're they're now just sort of 1489 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,480 showing. It's almost like, you know, Big 1490 01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:10,120 Brother can see you kind of thing. 1491 01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,320 Right. Have you ever heard of Tebow 1492 01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:13,320 sorting? Do you know what that is? 1493 01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,200 Charles Tebow. OK, so all the way back in 2013, 1494 01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:18,960 it's actually part of a bunch of tweets. 1495 01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:20,520 I had naked a bunch of tweets a long time ago. 1496 01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,640 But I tweeted something like the long term consequence of the 1497 01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:26,680 smartphone will be to enable Tebow sorting. 1498 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:29,760 And there's this economist named Charles Tebow. 1499 01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,920 If you Google T i.e. BOUT, right, there's something 1500 01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,000 called the Tebow model. OK, this is a purely theoretical 1501 01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:40,560 model in like the 1950s, and he had 7 assumptions. 1502 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,040 In the T-ball model, it was something like everybody has 1503 01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:48,000 perfect information and they can, you know, we now save 1504 01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,760 remote work, they can work from anywhere and they have mobility 1505 01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:56,440 and services in one location don't spill over to the other. 1506 01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:59,880 So for example, if a group in location A is funding services, 1507 01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,160 that only those people who pay for the service can have access 1508 01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:03,840 to it and Group B can't and so on. 1509 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:05,760 So it's like eliminates the free rider problem. 1510 01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:07,400 And so it's over. He had a bunch of assumptions 1511 01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,120 which are all very unrealistic in the world, the 1950s, what's 1512 01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:14,440 happening is the Internet is making all of those happen and 1513 01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,040 the Solanophone or the Cryptophone more generally is 1514 01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:21,480 making them happen even further shell, you know, So it's that's 1515 01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:25,200 something you know, just like, you know, you the verifiable 1516 01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,760 Delay Function was something that you you sort of built 1517 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,280 something and you weren't aware that it kind of intersected with 1518 01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:32,160 some piece of literature. If you haven't seen that, it's 1519 01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:35,400 worth taking a look at the T BA model and seeing how the crypto 1520 01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:37,880 phone really satisfies a bunch of those assumptions. 1521 01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:39,280 Go ahead. Do you think that? 1522 01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:41,160 Yeah. Like. 1523 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,200 Because the the phone. Has been built kind of like by 1524 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,560 these big tech companies. Do you think it's going to 1525 01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:52,560 become so like the consumer differentiator between any 1526 01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,240 device is going to get so small that like it's a commodity 1527 01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,640 product and then crypto can be that differentiator that like 1528 01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:05,880 has a viral flip like do you I I think so, right, because I mean 1529 01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,440 smartphones. They don't get that much better 1530 01:15:08,440 --> 01:15:11,080 each year. You know, like it is true that 1531 01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:15,160 your IOSIOS will get slower. People don't know if that's a 1532 01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:19,480 real thing or not, right? But but assuming I mean there's 1533 01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,320 a there's and you you know what I'm talking about, right? 1534 01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,720 Like if you don't if you don't upgrade your iOS on or you don't 1535 01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:26,800 upgrade your phone, I don't think it's malicious. 1536 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,640 I think it's just the dabs are. Building on the next Gen. device 1537 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,840 and they're using all the hardware the next Gen. device 1538 01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:37,240 for their like testing and then when you ported when you install 1539 01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:41,080 that code on the old Gen. device, you're like hey why is 1540 01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,880 it sluggish right. Right, exactly. 1541 01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:45,640 So. So it's it's. 1542 01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,200 Like, you know, there's that saying like, whatever in the in 1543 01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,000 the 90s people said whatever Intel creates, Microsoft 1544 01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,080 destroys. Like, you know, Microsoft, 1545 01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:55,640 Microsoft eat all the RAM, we're going to eat all the CPU 1546 01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,200 whatever, right? But actually, you know what's 1547 01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:00,840 interesting about it is you know you're a low level guy. 1548 01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,440 Do you know this app a long time ago called Word Lens came out in 1549 01:16:04,440 --> 01:16:07,120 the early 2000, early 20 tens, late 2000s. 1550 01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,520 OK, so Brazilian guy, you know, friendly acquaintance of mine 1551 01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:14,680 who coded this and it was basically able to do real time 1552 01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:20,600 OCR and translation of words. So you could hold it up and 1553 01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:24,200 assign in Spanish would in an augmented reality way translate 1554 01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:25,240 into English. OK. 1555 01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:29,680 And this was in like the early twenty 10s with very limited 1556 01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,480 cameras, I think it was even pre deep learning, OK. 1557 01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:37,560 And it was just incredibly impressive low level engineering 1558 01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,120 where he just coded everything in Objective C at a very low 1559 01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:45,080 level and it kind of showed, I mean he was, he was like one guy 1560 01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:48,480 basically and he was ahead of like all of Google's ML people 1561 01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:50,640 or whatever, right. I eventually got acquired by 1562 01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:53,680 Google, well deserved acquisition and and that kind of 1563 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,800 showed what could happen if you took your kind of skills or his 1564 01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:02,160 kind of skills and actually did push the metal, you know, which 1565 01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:04,960 hasn't been done right. And the reason I think about 1566 01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,280 that is in the event, you know people are talking about some 1567 01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,680 conflict over Taiwan or what have you and hopefully that does 1568 01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,040 not happen right. But in the event that there is 1569 01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:16,320 some sort of sustained supply chain disruption, we might be 1570 01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,880 stuck with the current model of phones for a long time, you 1571 01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:23,680 know, or at least years, right? Basically 10X improvements. 1572 01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,000 In software across any application you can think of 1573 01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,960 like you can like the way things are built right now with React 1574 01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,200 and all of these like very fast to market stacks. 1575 01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:35,920 It's not optimized for performance, it's really 1576 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:38,480 optimized for speed of getting to market. 1577 01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,240 And that makes sense when you have like a very rich 1578 01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:43,520 environment like richer resources. 1579 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:48,960 But if we needed to push the envelope on like performance, 1580 01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:54,360 there's just like, you know, 10 to 100 X of optimizations people 1581 01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:57,920 can start doing in software. I'm very confident of that. 1582 01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,880 And then you can, you can see that in gaming concerts like 1583 01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:05,280 especially the Switch or PlayStation, Those have a very 1584 01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:09,480 long life cycle and it's the same chip for like 10 years, you 1585 01:18:09,480 --> 01:18:12,840 know, on the PS2 or whatever. And you saw the quality of games 1586 01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:17,400 get better and better as engineers really figured out the 1587 01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:20,120 nooks and crannies of the hardware and then the libraries 1588 01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:24,400 and then them skills scaled out. But that takes a very large 1589 01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:27,600 concentrated effort of continuously working on the same 1590 01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,920 thing. It is actually amazing when you 1591 01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:32,360 go back and play. Some of the old NES games or 1592 01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,800 something like that, how constrained those engineers were 1593 01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,760 in their debugging and shipping? And yet how good many of those 1594 01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:41,040 games are? You know, people have talked 1595 01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:44,040 about, you know, obviously starting new companies, new 1596 01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:48,440 communities, new new currencies for a while and I've got this 1597 01:18:48,440 --> 01:18:50,080 whole book on starting new countries, right. 1598 01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:51,880 And I'd love to hear your thoughts. 1599 01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:55,040 Obviously, you know, crypto provides a lot of the material 1600 01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:56,320 for that. It provides currency, it 1601 01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:58,360 provides identity, It actually provides something 1602 01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,320 underestimated which is community of a bunch of people 1603 01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:02,880 around the world. You know what? 1604 01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,840 What does Tolley land look like? Right, Tolia? 1605 01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,400 You know what, what, what is? If you can start a new country, 1606 01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,120 you start a new currency. So if you start a new country, 1607 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:14,400 what what is? What does that look like? 1608 01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:15,280 What? What would you do with that? 1609 01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:17,880 The state is the is the oppressive. 1610 01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:23,200 Part So I would start a non country like free association 1611 01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:26,840 anyone can participate in if they want to and whatever they 1612 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,960 bring in bring into it is is like is up to them right like 1613 01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:36,040 and I think that's a very natural state of living because 1614 01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,840 the absolute when in like communities like I mean that was 1615 01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,600 like the the state of living in prehistoric times like everyone 1616 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:47,560 lived in some community and like everyone contracted you had 1617 01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:51,200 ideas of private property but you also have this shared thing 1618 01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:55,640 that you are working on and you kind of see that naturally 1619 01:19:55,640 --> 01:20:00,320 happening with the Internet. Open source communities, people 1620 01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:03,720 build licenses and stuff like that to create some rules of 1621 01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:07,840 enforcement, but they're not. But I don't have to use the GPL 1622 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,560 though, It's forcing me to be AGPL only person. 1623 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:14,120 Like and then go code Apache licensing or whatever and you 1624 01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:16,720 kind of free associate with communities based on whatever 1625 01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,440 common social rules and standards they've created. 1626 01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:21,680 And that to me is like a very natural state. 1627 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,000 And this is what like Totally land would be like. 1628 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:26,720 We all have our PKI. If we want to coordinate on 1629 01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:30,160 ideas, it'd be open source ideas we would like. 1630 01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,840 If we want to pull funds together to go do a certain 1631 01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:38,000 thing we could use a doubt. You know and like you know set 1632 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,600 up a a group and dialect where we like have these like smart 1633 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:45,320 messages that tell everyone hey go sign this transaction and 1634 01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:49,720 like tell and like activate the Dow to go like pay for like you 1635 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,720 know market marketing campaign for this open source product or 1636 01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,240 whatever that we go whatever. Whatever it is the thing that 1637 01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:58,200 that we worked on together and that's like a very kind of like 1638 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:06,280 transparent free flow of like association environment cannot 1639 01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:09,720 thing scale. I I believe that can actually 1640 01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,280 scale to a very large number of people because this is the 1641 01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:16,760 natural state of people. But can it be like competitive 1642 01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,760 to a nation state is like I think a question like there's 1643 01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:25,200 one set of anarchists like back in the French Revolution that 1644 01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:29,080 the whole theory was that like we just ignore the state and we 1645 01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:32,720 do this like small commune association thing and eventually 1646 01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:37,240 if enough people do it, the state just goes away because. 1647 01:21:37,440 --> 01:21:41,440 We just we just ignore it like. And then it like disappears and 1648 01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:44,760 that's a very kind of utopian non practical thing point of 1649 01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:48,960 view but it it feels like very very attractive to to believe 1650 01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:54,240 that that's possible if you can get enough people. 1651 01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:56,480 From the state to believe it doesn't exist and it doesn't 1652 01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:58,200 exist. Like the Soviet Union doesn't 1653 01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:01,120 exist, right? So there's an aspect of that 1654 01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:03,400 which sounds utopian, but there's also an aspect of that 1655 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:05,960 which is it's it's actually getting. 1656 01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:08,000 I mean that's thing I think a lot of people don't care about 1657 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,080 crypto. Crypto is a softer install but 1658 01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:13,800 it's also a like a mental install. 1659 01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:18,240 It's a wetware install, right? Because it's not just the bytes 1660 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:22,080 on a hard drive or a phone that matter, but it's a concepts in 1661 01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:25,640 people's heads that value those bytes and and treat them in a 1662 01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:30,400 certain way, right. And so, you know, there's 1663 01:22:30,440 --> 01:22:33,040 there's the dumb version of it which is, oh let's all just, you 1664 01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:34,760 know, close your eyes and pretend the government doesn't 1665 01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,200 exist. But there is the smart version 1666 01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,400 of it, which is governments have been convinced to not exist, 1667 01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:42,600 right. East Germany does not exist. 1668 01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:45,400 You know, like the Soviet Union does not exist. 1669 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:48,160 These oppressive governments were basically convinced in a 1670 01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:50,360 sense to not exist. Now of course the counter 1671 01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:53,160 counter argument is they were convinced in part at gunpoint. 1672 01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:55,280 You know, there was the USA and so on. 1673 01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:57,120 And I'm not a utopian about that. 1674 01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,040 Certainly that was a very important component of the whole 1675 01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:03,080 thing. But ultimately, at least a big 1676 01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:06,120 part of that revolution was a peaceful one internally where 1677 01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,280 people did change their minds, right? 1678 01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:11,520 So at least part of it, I'm not saying all of it, but at least 1679 01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:15,080 part of it is the thing you're talking about where you you 1680 01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:16,880 build essentially a parallel society. 1681 01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,720 It shows a better way than the legacy society. 1682 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,120 And people decide to opt out enough and then they kind of 1683 01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:23,320 withdraw support for the old thing. 1684 01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:25,040 And maybe the old thing doesn't have the legitimacy to even 1685 01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:27,920 enforce on the new one, right? Maybe that I think some reality 1686 01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:29,440 that are like this kind of already. 1687 01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:33,440 Exists and in western like liberal and democracies it 1688 01:23:33,440 --> 01:23:37,720 mostly exists too. Like people naturally like have 1689 01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,760 so far like we have more or less the freedom to kind of limit the 1690 01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,360 actions of the state and like slowly but surely we kind of 1691 01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:49,760 like do that. And for the most part like, you 1692 01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:53,840 know in our kids school people get together and pull ass money 1693 01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,240 together and like go build something right for the school. 1694 01:23:56,440 --> 01:24:00,240 And there's no like the state is not involved there, right. 1695 01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:02,840 And like yeah, it's a network, right? 1696 01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:05,200 We pool. It's a network we work at. 1697 01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:06,720 People work on open. Source software. 1698 01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:09,000 Together randomly, right? Like random people, they put in 1699 01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:13,240 work, they get releases out of the coordinate and the state is 1700 01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:17,840 more or less not involved there outside of like the like, you 1701 01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:20,240 know small copyright things, right? 1702 01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:22,720 Like finish what you're saying then I'll then I'll as like you 1703 01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:23,720 know. Totally land, right? 1704 01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:26,440 Like is. Is like that happening at a 1705 01:24:26,440 --> 01:24:30,840 faster pace and accelerating at a bigger scale and like once 1706 01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,400 this layer of services that's effectively provided through 1707 01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:38,680 these like networks starts eating away at other services 1708 01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:41,960 like some are commercial right. It like now open source software 1709 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:45,680 is competing with Microsoft built operating systems right. 1710 01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:47,720 Are not as interesting anymore as Linux. 1711 01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:51,160 So there's like places where the stuff is clearly one as system 1712 01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:55,120 happens I think the the other parts will naturally recede and 1713 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:58,880 and kind of how you described and eventually may only exist in 1714 01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,400 name only and that is like I think what crypto and like this 1715 01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,640 idea of an open database with PKI where we can like coordinate 1716 01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:09,840 not just on ideas anymore but now and like financial assets. 1717 01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:11,840 I think that's the really, really exciting part. 1718 01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,640 Some people up watching up to. This this segment will say, Oh 1719 01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:17,680 my God, these guys are so impractical, blah blah. 1720 01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:20,400 But to put to put some flesh on the bones of this and just to 1721 01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,640 give it a little more practical or not not to give more 1722 01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:24,880 practical, but the angle from which it's may perceive as more 1723 01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:27,200 practical. The cost of the network state. 1724 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,440 The network is the digital part. The state is like the physical 1725 01:25:30,440 --> 01:25:32,000 part. That's one way of cutting it. 1726 01:25:32,440 --> 01:25:35,760 And I think people aren't really thinking through the extent to 1727 01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,600 which the network can actually act as quote enforcer but 1728 01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:41,600 nonviolent enforcer of good behavior. 1729 01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,400 So for example, with crypto, the network can enforce property 1730 01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:48,120 rights and identity and do birth and marriage and death 1731 01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:52,120 certificates, and it can, you know, have registries of who 1732 01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:54,120 owns what. And then how does it enforce? 1733 01:25:54,440 --> 01:25:58,240 Well, we already know that wealth can be represented on 1734 01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:02,760 chain, but it's a little, you know, maybe less obvious is, for 1735 01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:06,840 example, how did you get into your office today, right? 1736 01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,000 Did you use a key card? Right. 1737 01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:09,720 OK. It's a key card again to office 1738 01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:13,560 for many people. They have like a Tesla style fob 1739 01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,600 to get into their car, right. Many piece of cap, you know, 1740 01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:22,200 obviously you need like some sort of, you know, cryptography 1741 01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:24,440 to get into your phone, whether it's Face ID or, you know, 1742 01:26:24,440 --> 01:26:28,240 passcode or something like that. And many piece of equipment, so, 1743 01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:31,720 so buildings and piece of capital equipment will basically 1744 01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,480 all be gated by your phone or a fob or a card or some 1745 01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,160 consolidation of all those that looks like a phone, right. 1746 01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,760 That means that all financial assets because all stocks, 1747 01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,680 bonds, all that type of stuff, all property, digital property 1748 01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:49,120 and all capital goods, right. All the way in electronics and 1749 01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:51,120 stuff. Which is maybe if you Add all 1750 01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:54,840 that up, right, because all real estate can be gated by a lock on 1751 01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,360 the door, right. All electronics, all vehicles, 1752 01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:03,160 every crane, every ship, every plane, every car, right. 1753 01:27:03,440 --> 01:27:08,680 All capital goods and all property can be put on chain and 1754 01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:11,640 guarded by that and in theory maybe you could say, oh I'm 1755 01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,320 going to go and hot wire a Tesla, Well maybe, but that's 1756 01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:16,880 pretty hard to do, right. I'm going to hot wire and get 1757 01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:18,520 into this you know, 30 story building. 1758 01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:20,280 I'm going to climb up the elevator because I don't have 1759 01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:22,400 the crypto key. Maybe that's pretty hard to do 1760 01:27:22,440 --> 01:27:25,800 right? As a practical barrier, if you 1761 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:29,920 have ENS or SNS based authentication to those systems, 1762 01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:35,800 you can protect buildings and cars and phones and electronics 1763 01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:37,960 as well as all the onshore property that's probably like 1764 01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:40,640 90% or more of the value of property in the world. 1765 01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:42,960 It's not going to protect the clothes on your back, it's not 1766 01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:47,040 going to protect the literal, you know, a glass of water that 1767 01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:50,520 you're holding right. But modulo those things that are 1768 01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:54,280 too de minimis in value to have electronic locks on, everything 1769 01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:57,080 else can be protected in this way if it's done with due 1770 01:27:57,080 --> 01:28:00,040 process. CD platforming today is done in 1771 01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:02,000 this arbitrary, corporate way, right? 1772 01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,200 But you can imagine a world where de platforming is more 1773 01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:11,120 humane than violence, right? It's something where, OK, you're 1774 01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:12,480 suspended. You're this, you're that. 1775 01:28:12,480 --> 01:28:14,080 You're locked out of this, locked out of that. 1776 01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,240 That's your punishment. You can still, you know, like go 1777 01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:21,600 to work or whatever, but you know the actual punishment is 1778 01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:23,320 you can't go to the club or something like that. 1779 01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,560 I don't know. And and right now, it's being 1780 01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:28,360 wheeled in this totally arbitrary fashion. 1781 01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,280 So there's a forum in which with due process and with societal 1782 01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,360 approval around it, a digital punishment could be more humane 1783 01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:38,160 than a physical punishment, potentially. 1784 01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,360 And I'm not saying it totally replaces it. 1785 01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,040 I'm not saying, oh, you know, some people say, Oh my God, do 1786 01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:44,600 you think there's no need for violence ever? 1787 01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:46,360 No, I'm a, I'm a realist on that. 1788 01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:49,120 I'm trying to think of of a good example of this. 1789 01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:54,360 You know if if if you have an issue where there's there's 1790 01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:57,760 somebody who's people do this in buildings already, right to get 1791 01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:00,880 up to the 30th floor you you might need a key card to get in 1792 01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:02,040 there. That's an aspect of security 1793 01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:04,520 there where it just kind of discourages folks from entry. 1794 01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:06,320 It makes the space more secure, it's digitally secure. 1795 01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:09,400 You don't need a guard because the key card is is is stopping 1796 01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:11,880 at the guard would actually have to be intimidating at the front 1797 01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:14,040 door, but this would actually block it into four year 1798 01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:17,440 different sluices and gates. So anyway, just some thoughts, 1799 01:29:17,440 --> 01:29:19,440 but you know, actually it's not totally land. 1800 01:29:19,440 --> 01:29:26,640 You know what we should call it? Anatolia isn't that good. 1801 01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:29,240 Right. So Anatolia, the national 1802 01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:31,840 currency, Solana, everybody's a volunteerist. 1803 01:29:32,440 --> 01:29:34,920 I'm glad you're thinking about this, because I actually think 1804 01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:37,600 that all the Solana phone holders could maybe crowdfund 1805 01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,240 some territory, maybe do something interesting. 1806 01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,640 I I do think that the crypto phone is an important thing for 1807 01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:45,240 civil rights and property rights, and so I'm going to try 1808 01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,640 it out simply on the basis I don't have any stake in it or 1809 01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:51,120 anything like that. I, you know, I hold Solana, I 1810 01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:53,160 hold Ethereum, I hold Bitcoin, I hold all this other stuff. 1811 01:29:53,480 --> 01:29:56,760 But the the crypto phone is something which I I believed in 1812 01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:59,040 even before you guys announced and I've talked about it for a 1813 01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:00,680 year or so. I'm glad, really glad you're 1814 01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:01,680 doing it. So thank you for that. 1815 01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:04,000 All right. And so that thank you very much. 1816 01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:05,760 Antilly, thank you for having me.