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Newer Welcome to the Network 
State podcast. 

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Thank you so much for having me 
with all this is awesome. 

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Awesome, great. 
So I was thinking we could start

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by just giving an overview of 
what orchard is, what embryo 

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screening is, maybe what DNA is,
just a very, very basics. 

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People don't know anything about
this. 

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And then also kind of what 
you're shipping now, let's get 

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into the moral case, right? 
Why it's actually important 

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that, you know, if you're on the
left and you believe in my body,

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my choice, which I think you and
I do, then obviously, you know, 

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you, you're going to want that 
to extend to everything. 

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And if you're on the right and 
you believe in deregulation, 

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decentralization, you know, like
allowing people basically a 

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libertarian kind of view, then 
again, you should come to this 

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to assist the idea that people's
personal choices are their own 

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business. 
And certainly a parent shouldn't

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be forced to do something that 
another parent, our person wants

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them to do is not really 
involved in their relationship. 

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So why don't we, why don't we go
start with the the first part 

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and let's talk about the 
technology and let's talk about 

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the morality and then the 
society. 

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So you got some slides, got some
visuals. 

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So what Orchid is, is it allows 
parents to protect their 

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children in a way that hasn't 
been possible before. 

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And what we're able to do is 
we're able to screen the entire 

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genome of an embryo, to scan for
thousands of diseases that 

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previously parents didn't have 
the chance to know about until 

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after the child was born, after 
symptoms already developed, 

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after, you know, a doctor has a 
really, you know, awful 

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conversation with the parent 
that sort of ends with, you 

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know, there's not much that we 
can do. 

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So we basically give all of that
information at the earliest 

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possible stage when there is 
actually something that you can 

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do, which is to transfer an 
embryo that's unaffected. 

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So let's kind of start at the 
very beginning of the birds and 

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the bees, you know, how does an 
embryo actually form? 

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So what is an embryo? 
Embryo is an egg plus a sperm. 

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You know, each egg, each gamete,
you know egg and sperm are 

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carrying 23 chromosomes that 
combines to create a zygote, an 

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embryo that grows. 
So you can actually see this is 

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how an embryo develops over 
those five days that it grows in

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the lab. 
So, So what happens is that you 

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know, it divides into multiple 
cells. 

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On day five, you have about 125 
cells. 

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Five of those cells are sampled 
from the outer membrane, which 

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is called the trifecta Derb, and
those are the ones that are 

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actually used in orchids 
analysis. 

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So this process of actually 
biopsying or giving a haircut to

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embryos has actually been 
happening for over 2 decades. 

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It's just that in that, you 
know, 5 cell biopsy that only 

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has 30 pika grams of DNA, 
historically, you haven't been 

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able to get very much 
information off of that. 

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You only got something called 
chromosome information, right? 

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Which you can kind of think of 
as like chapters in a book 

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versus what orchids able to do 
is actually read every single 

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letter, every single base in 
those chapters as opposed to 

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just that. 
Here's the thing. 

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The thing is this doesn't look 
you know, at the at the one or 

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two or four or 8 or 16 cell or 
whatever cell stage. 

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It really doesn't look human, 
right? 

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It is very much you can, you can
decide you take a continuous 

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process and every ethicist and 
every person will have a 

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different point on that process 
as to when it's a human being 

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right. 
But like probably most would 

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agree that, well, actually, no, 
some wouldn't, that the sperm 

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and egg are themselves, you 
know, there's there's biblical 

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injunctions against spilling one
seed on the ground and so on and

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so forth, right. 
So if you think it's actually a 

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quote human at the moment of an 
embryo, then you'll have one set

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of moral intuitions. 
And if you think it's not really

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a human then but it might become
a human three months or six 

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months or whatever months from 
now. 

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That's, you know, the whole 
termination debate or what have 

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you. 
Yeah, yeah, I think. 

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It's important to put this on 
screen because that what you 

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just put there, it really 
doesn't look like a human. 

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If you were if you told machine 
learning to ask is does is that 

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look like a human or not? 
It's not, you know, it's not 

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doesn't look like a human, 
right? 

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And whether it looks like 
something is not everything, but

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it's something, you know, in the
sense of it's a this a 

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microscopic little cluster of 
cells that it, you know, legal 

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systems will differ based on 
whether or not you consider this

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to quote be a human or not, 
right? 

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And many legal systems do not 
consider it to be a human. 

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This is like one of those things
where it's like. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
I, I, I, I totally, I totally 

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agree. 
I think it's like it's very 

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clear that, you know, this is 
not visible to the naked eye. 

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It's, you know, there's, there's
no organs. 

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Oh yeah, and how small is it you
actually? 

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You haven't indicated that on 
screen. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
It's not visible to the naked 

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eye, right? 
So this is under a microscope. 

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You can't see this without a 
microscope. 

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No. 
If you were to see a Petri dish,

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you would not be able to see 
anything, right? 

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It's like smaller than a grain 
of sand. 

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But I think even separate from 
that, like the question of is 

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it, you know, human, is it not 
like the core thing is that 

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Orchid doesn't actually change 
anything about the IVF process, 

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right? 
The way that IVF works, the way 

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that it's worked for 40 years is
that you extract eggs, you 

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create embryos, you create 
multiple embryos and you have to

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choose one to transfer, right? 
So if you're opposed to creating

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embryos, then you should just be
you, you should just be opposed 

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to IVF in general, which is 
where, you know, 12 million plus

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babies have been born, right? 
The thing that Orchid is doing 

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is saying that, hey, you have 
these, you know, 45610, you 

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know, 15 embryos, however many 
embryos that you were able to 

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create during that cycle. 
And the question is, which one 

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do you transfer? 
The previous method is that you 

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transfer with extremely limited 
information. 

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And then with Orchid you have 
the opportunity to have much 

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more information. 
So there isn't actually a new 

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moral question of should we 
create embryos or not, or should

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we transfer embryos around, 
right? 

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That question has already been 
decided by IVF. 

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And there this question of, you 
know, which embryo do we 

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transfer is just inherent in 
every single IVF cycle, right? 

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If you, if you create more than 
one embryo, then that decision 

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has to be made. 
It's just that right now it's 

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made be a kind of a beauty 
contest. 

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So what will happen is that an 
embryologist will look at these 

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images and say, OK, this one has
a higher morphological grade, 

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This one has a lower 
morphological grade. 

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Or alternatively, they'll use 
really limited genetic 

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information. 
So that's kind of chromosome 

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testing, what I'm going to get 
into, right? 

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So, you know, humans have 23 
pairs of chromosomes. 

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And if you have a abnormal 
number of chromosomes, then 

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it's, it's frequently not 
compatible with life, right? 

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So chromosomes are organized 
from largest to smallest, 

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meaning they know the, the, the 
number of genes, the number of 

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bases that are on chromosome 1 
is much larger than on the, the 

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sex chromosomes are much 
smaller. 

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So most of you know, if you have
a monosomy, meaning a missing 

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chromosome or an extra 
chromosome on, you know, most of

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these chromosomes are just not 
compatible with life. 

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It's sort of unique situation 
where it is compatible with life

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is Down syndrome, Trisomy 21. 
And I guess kind of the key 

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point here is really, you know, 
if someone asked you to 

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proofread your book and the only
thing that they could tell you 

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is, you know, your book has an 
extra or missing chapter, you 

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wouldn't really think that was a
very good proofreader, right? 

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But that's really all that 
existing genetic testing can 

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tell you is do you have a on 
embryos anyways? 

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Do you have an extra or missing 
chromosome? 

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So what whole genome sequencing 
and what orchid can do is go 

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much, much further. 
It goes actually really deep 

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into every single letter in each
of those chromosomes or 

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chapters, right? 
So any type of typo, whether 

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that's an extra base and an 
insertion, a missing base, a 

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deletion, those can all be 
detected. 

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So there's actually thousands of
different genetic diseases that 

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have been cataloged by 
geneticists, you know, in the 

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academic community over the last
two decades. 

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And, you know, what's really 
powerful is being able to 

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actually scan for these ahead of
time rather than after it's too 

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late, right? 
Like, you probably don't know a 

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lot about, you know, the names, 
a lot of these conditions, you 

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know, neuro ocular disorder, 
like individually each of these 

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conditions is really rare. 
But in aggregate, and if you add

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them up there, there a lot of 
people are affected. 

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So, you know, if you look at 
like the rare disease community,

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they'll say that, you know, 10% 
of Americans are affected by by 

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rare disease. 
And the vast majority of those 

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are genetic. 
The vast majority of those who 

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are affected are are children. 
And 95% of these conditions 

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don't even have treatments, you 
know, much less a cure. 

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So, you know, what's really cool
is that this is already 

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happening, right? 
Like babies have already been 

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born, you know, through orchid 
that have been screened for this

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freedoms had that have had their
entire genome screened. 

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And you know, the reason why 
this is really powerful is that 

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if you look at pretty much every
single outcome, whether it's 

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pregnancy or healthy baby, a 
huge component, a double digit 

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component is actually genetic, 
right? 

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So if you look at miscarriage, 
about 50% of miscarriages are 

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due to genetic issues in the 
embryo, right? 

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So there's people who have 
recurrent miscarriages due to 

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genetics that, you know, if they
do embryo screening, don't have 

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to, you know, suffer that same 
fate. 

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If you look at infant deaths, 
you know, over 1/4 of infant 

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deaths in the NICU, the neonatal
intensive care unit, are due to 

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underlying genetic diseases. 
Again, this is like a huge 

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category of sort of the maximum 
amount of of suffering that you 

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can imagine for a parent and a 
child that could just be totally

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avoided via embryo screening. 
And if you look at, you know, 

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another category like moderate 
to severe intellectual 

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disability, about 60%, you know,
there's a about a 60% diagnostic

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yield for those folks. 
And you know, a a large fraction

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of these are caused by what's 
called de Novo mutation. 

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So that means that there's a new
or spontaneous mutations in the 

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embryo that are not present in 
the parents. 

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And a lot of these are 
paternally inherited, meaning 

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older fathers are contributing 
more de Novo mutations. 

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So just interrupt for a second. 
IVF already exists. 

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Implantation diagnosis already 
exists. 

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Yes, most people who do this, 
millions of people have done 

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this. 
Millions of people are already 

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screening, and they're already 
screening for, for example, 

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moderate to sphere intellectual 
disability. 

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Because if you're actually doing
it, why would you? 

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Why would you not, right? 
So this screening, the moderate 

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to severe intellectual 
disability, this is happening in

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the pediatric setting, right? 
So a child will come in and 

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they'll be affected, right, 
with, with either, you know, 

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autism or intellectual 
disability or epilepsy. 

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And then geneticists will 
sequence them and find out what 

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the cause is, right? 
The only difference is that 

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instead of waiting until after 
symptoms happen, we're we're 

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moving that timeline all the way
up to the embryo because now we 

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have this new ability which is 
able to actually sequence the 

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entire genome of the embryo 
other than just this tiny 

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fraction, just the chromosomes, 
but right so. 

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Actually that's right. 
So some fraction things can be 

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caught preconception or even pre
like even before people are 

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married or what have you because
you can get you can sequence or 

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carrier test them. 
But many other things that are 

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de Novo you can only catch 
postconception but potentially 

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postconception but pre 
implementation. 

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Because exactly. 
Yeah. 

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And I think a really important 
piece here is that right now the

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situation is that, you know, we 
talked about chromosome testing,

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00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,960
right? 
So via NIPT, pregnant mothers at

227
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,880
10 or, you know, 15 weeks are 
already getting information 

228
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,360
about chromosomes, right? 
They're already finding out, OK,

229
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,320
my child has Down syndrome. 
And now they have an option, 

230
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,000
right, which is either terminate
or have an affected child's, 

231
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,240
right? 
They're already put in that 

232
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,280
position, right. 
And people are already choosing 

233
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,520
to terminate. 
We're already choosing to, you 

234
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:36,840
know, continue those 
pregnancies, right. 

235
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,120
So it doesn't, it's, it's fully 
sort of more compassionate from 

236
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,880
a emotional, physical level to 
just move that timeline forward 

237
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,720
to the to the point of 
transferring an embryo as 

238
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,920
opposed to. 
Pre implantation rather than 

239
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,440
post implantation. 
Yes, yes, exactly. 

240
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,280
So that's what's kind of really 
surprising. 

241
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:55,960
Just just to define terms, 
right? 

242
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,280
There's like, you know, there's 
just screening an adult and 

243
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,840
giving them their genome before 
they're, you know, having any 

244
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,520
partner of any kind. 
Then there is what's called 

245
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,960
preconception testing, which is 
similar except the difference 

246
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,040
being that now your genome and 
your partners are being analyzed

247
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,400
together to determine whether or
not your children will 

248
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,120
potentially have, for example, a
chance of having a double 

249
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,240
recessive if both parents have a
Mendelian disease. 

250
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:24,760
And there is post conception 
when the embryo exists, but pre 

251
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,520
implantation, which is in the 
context of IVF where you've got 

252
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,400
the 9 embryos for example, in 
your diagram and they're these 

253
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,280
tiny microscopic grain of sand 
things. 

254
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,360
And then there is post 
implantation when you know the 

255
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,080
the embryo is actually in the 
mother's room and it's 

256
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,880
developing and then you're 
screening, you know that and. 

257
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,800
Basically at each of those 
levels, different amounts of 

258
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,120
information are being revealed, 
right? 

259
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,600
So correct, that's right. 
Carrier screening only looks at 

260
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,320
recessive disorders, right? 
But we're saying, hey, you know,

261
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,160
you, you probably care about 
dominant disorders, right? 

262
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,640
You care about cancer, right? 
But that's just missing from 

263
00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,680
carrier screening, right? 
So. 

264
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,440
In a sense, if you make a 
distinction in an embryo and a 

265
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,880
three month old fetus, which 
most people I think do by moving

266
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,640
more testing. 
Now of course IVF itself is a 

267
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,880
procedure and a significant 1 
and so on and so forth. 

268
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,120
But if someone's doing IVF, then
because you can screen pre 

269
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,880
implantation, you can catch 
things so that you don't have to

270
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,480
screen post implantation when 
there's actually, it's actually 

271
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,720
developing in the womb. 
It's actually a more, as you 

272
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,040
said, more compassionate kind of
thing. 

273
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,520
Yeah. 
Yeah, exactly. 

274
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,880
I mean, maybe it's obvious, but 
the main cost of that is doing 

275
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,160
IVF in the 1st place. 
And that's a whole separate 

276
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:37,720
topic. 
But we want to reduce the cost 

277
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,760
of doing IVF. 
We want to, let me see overhead.

278
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,560
A lot of people are working. 
On that and I think, yeah, 

279
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,880
exactly. 
And I think even to focus on 

280
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,640
IVF, right, So we've also 
already resolved the moral 

281
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,040
question of should people be 
allowed to do IVF electively, 

282
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,280
right. 
So egg freezing and IVF are 

283
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,800
identical processes. 
The question is just, you know, 

284
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,960
do you freeze the eggs or do you
actually fertilize the eggs? 

285
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,760
But essentially women who are 
perfectly fertile, they have no 

286
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,880
infertility issue or already 
using IVF, using egg freezing 

287
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,680
prophylactically, right, 
proactively to basically, yeah, 

288
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,600
preserve their fertility, right.
So this idea that IVF can be 

289
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,080
used electively without an 
infertility diagnosis has 

290
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,280
actually also already been 
resolved for the last 10 years, 

291
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,840
right? 
So even that question of, you 

292
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,560
know, should people be using IVF
who don't have an infertility 

293
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:27,480
issue? 
I think that question has 

294
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,280
already been answered, right? 
It used to be the case that egg 

295
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,440
freezing was only recommended 
for women who had, you know, 

296
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,200
cancer diagnosis, right? 
They were going to be doing 

297
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,480
chemotherapy and then it was it 
was an option to preserve their 

298
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,760
fertility, right? 
But, you know, over the last 

299
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,200
decade, it's sort of advanced 
beyond that. 

300
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,800
It's no longer experimental. 
Yeah. 

301
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,880
You know, millions of people 
have, have, have done, you know,

302
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,000
that procedure as well, right. 
And obviously gay parents are, 

303
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,520
are using IVF, you know, to form
their families too. 

304
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,520
So I think it's really sort of 
I, I think at this point it's 

305
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,160
already a personal decision. 
Do you want, you know, to use 

306
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,600
IVF to form your, your family? 
So again, it's sort of just 

307
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,440
like, OK, now once you've made 
the decision to use IVF, how 

308
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,120
much information do you want? 
Do you want a little bit of 

309
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,520
information or do you want sort 
of the maximum amount of 

310
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,720
information that science can 
provide? 

311
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:18,840
Yeah. 
So kind of just moving on, 

312
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,440
Right. 
So, so, so I really wanted to 

313
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,800
kind of focus on this monogenic 
case because this is sort of, I 

314
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,720
would say, you know, very 
clinically bulletproof in the 

315
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,280
sense that, look, all of these 
conditions are already screened 

316
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,960
for in the pediatric setting. 
In the adult setting, there's no

317
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,400
debate about, you know, if you 
have this variant, does it lead 

318
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,080
to these disease, right. 
They're all considered 

319
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,280
definitively associated with 
these diseases. 

320
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,680
So it's really just about, you 
know, moving that timeline 

321
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,960
forward. 
I'd say the second side of the 

322
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:51,080
testing is using what's called, 
I guess, sorry, just to kind of 

323
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,440
like hammer that point home on 
the monogenic side, right? 

324
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:58,080
So we have users who've had, you
know, children who have terminal

325
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,840
disorders, right? 
So this is a child that has this

326
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,480
brain disorder called less 
encephaly. 

327
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,440
You know, vast majority of 
children with this condition die

328
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240
before they're 10 years old. 
There's no cure. 

329
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,640
So I think it's, it's honestly, 
I think quite cruel to in any 

330
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,000
way stigmatize these parents, 
right? 

331
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,840
They've sort of given up their 
entire careers to be caregivers 

332
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,080
for, you know, these very 
severely affected children. 

333
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,600
And now they want the 
opportunity to have a child that

334
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,200
is healthy, that doesn't have to
suffer for conditions in the 

335
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,480
same way that their first child 
did. 

336
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,360
And I think that that's an 
extremely important vulnerable 

337
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,320
population to embrace rather 
than to somehow stigmatize. 

338
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,680
And I just feel, you know, 
extremely strongly about these 

339
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:42,800
families. 
I mean, this is kind of like the

340
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,120
the reason why I started the 
company. 

341
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,720
So yeah, I just think if if 
people understood what it is 

342
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,440
that they're they're going 
through, it's like a very human 

343
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,520
desire, right? 
The idea that you know, you want

344
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,000
to, you know, see your child, 
you know, grow up, grow old 

345
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,440
rather than having to bury them,
right. 

346
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,120
And this is a very this is the 
reality. 

347
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,360
All the people who are like, 
just roll the dice. 

348
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,839
What about the people who didn't
want to roll the dice and they 

349
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,640
got a very bad roll of the dice 
and very bad luck, right? 

350
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,839
You know, there's no point in, 
you know, just roll the dice is 

351
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,920
just some silly type of thing 
that people will say without 

352
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,839
actually thinking about the 
consequences of it for people 

353
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:25,079
they don't know, like like Mrs. 
Crown over here. 

354
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,119
Yeah, exactly. 
I mean, they're not on the hook 

355
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,760
for the for the lifetime, you 
know, of, of medical bills, 

356
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,200
right. 
And I think that, you know, it's

357
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,760
not diminishing, you know, you 
know, this this baby's life or 

358
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,280
any, anyone's life to, to screen
and to say, hey, for my next 

359
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,200
child, I don't want them to be 
affected by that condition. 

360
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,520
I think that's kind of one of 
the tensions that I think people

361
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,520
somehow don't understand that, 
hey, you know, if I choose not 

362
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,920
to drink during my pregnancy, 
that's not saying all people 

363
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,560
with fetal alcohol syndrome 
should be deleted. 

364
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,200
It's saying for me, for my 
child, I don't want them to be 

365
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,520
affected by fetal. 
Of course, these arguments that 

366
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,760
the some of these folks are 
making are just so silly because

367
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,680
it's like saying, you know, I 
think we should put on 

368
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,120
seatbelts. 
So I was in a car crash. 

369
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,720
Do you think I shouldn't exist? 
Yeah, exactly. 

370
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,200
It's exactly the same as like it
just makes no everyone. 

371
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,840
Is equally I want people to be 
hurt by car crashes, you know? 

372
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,840
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 
And, and if anything, it's sort 

373
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,240
of like even more unfair than a 
car crash because, hey, it's 

374
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,680
like, okay, there was like a 
clear human error, you know, 90%

375
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,600
of the time for why that car 
crash happened, this is sort of 

376
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,320
like, okay, you just a random 
typo just, you know, got added 

377
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,280
to your DNA. 
And then, you know, you just, 

378
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,480
you know, your organs don't 
form, your limbs don't form, 

379
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,840
your, your skull doesn't form, 
right. 

380
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,960
That's so it can just be very 
catastrophic. 

381
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,760
It's, it's like the, you know, 
the, the there's a meme about 

382
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,280
like, did you have breakfast 
today? 

383
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,880
They genuinely can't contemplate
A counterfactual. 

384
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:56,280
Fundamentally, the the concept 
really what it boils down to I 

385
00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:02,720
think is misery loves company. 
People who have some form of bad

386
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,880
thing happen to them just want 
other people to also be 

387
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,600
miserable. 
Some of them, others don't. 

388
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:09,560
Right. 
Why don't we go to the next 

389
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,240
slide Mark? 
Well, actually, I don't know, I 

390
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,520
kind of like basically me saying
something and then you doing 

391
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,000
your commentary over it. 
So I actually think that's kind 

392
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,080
of good. 
Like, do you want to do this 

393
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,120
summary really quick of like 
what all this means? 

394
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,080
Actually thought that was really
good if you want to just like 

395
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,200
have one. 
Yeah, I mean, my summary is, but

396
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,280
we'll add it and pull 
everything. 

397
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,160
Yeah. 
My summary is, A we've got 

398
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,760
Tolman IVF babies. 
B we already are doing diagnosis

399
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,120
prior to implantation of IVF 
babies. 

400
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,000
C we have the opportunity to 
improve that diagnosis by simply

401
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,600
adding polygenic scoring on top 
of monogenic scoring. 

402
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,240
D, it's a parent's decision as 
to whether to do that or not. 

403
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,560
E It is not somebody else's 
decision really, as to obviously

404
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,200
whether those parents got 
married in the 1st place, how 

405
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,160
they choose to have children, 
whether they choose to have 

406
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:07,080
children. 
F Much of the hand wringing over

407
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:14,080
this is based on bizarre, 
illogical emotionalism that 

408
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,000
doesn't encounter the reality of
what it is to have a child with 

409
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,200
a genetic disorder and to make 
somebody else roll the dice of 

410
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,800
doing that. 
It's it's kind of like, you 

411
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,240
know, I prefer a car without 
seatbelts. 

412
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,440
Therefore you must have a car 
without seatbelts. 

413
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,200
You know, it's kind of like 
that. 

414
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,720
You're literally preventing 
somebody else from taking a 

415
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,160
precaution because you want to 
roll the dice. 

416
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,520
OK, I mean, fine. 
If you want to roll the dice, be

417
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,680
my guest. 
Why should somebody else have to

418
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,400
do that again? 
Why should some other hair and. 

419
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,160
I also think it would be if you 
just did one quick recap of 

420
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,800
like, what are the moral 
questions here, right? 

421
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,960
Which is like, OK, should we 
create embryos That's already 

422
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,320
been. 
Right. 

423
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,920
So moral questions, should I, 
should IVF be legal? 

424
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,800
OK, and by the way, we can 
reverse the same, you know, kind

425
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,960
of argument. 
Do you hate all the IVF babies? 

426
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560
You hate 12 million people? 
Do you want them all to be 

427
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,240
eradicated because you're so 
anti IVF? 

428
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,640
You IVF hater, you IVF bigot, 
blah blah blah, right? 

429
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,080
Like you can reverse all these 
retarded arguments on them. 

430
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,400
OK fine. 
So #1 should IVF be legal? 

431
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,840
OK, If yes, all right #2 should 
pre implantation genetic 

432
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,120
diagnosis be legal? 
Which it is, which is basically 

433
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,520
like if you've got and by the 
way, you need that because IVF 

434
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,440
embryos often have something 
wrong with them, employees or 

435
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,000
something like that. 
So you have to screen them 

436
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,480
before implantation. 
So screen them for anemployees, 

437
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,960
which are macroscopic 
chromosomal issues, Why wouldn't

438
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,840
you screen them for microscopic 
ones, which are like monogenic 

439
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,680
discorders? 
And if you can do that, now that

440
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,480
we've got the technology, why 
not polygenic? 

441
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,200
There's really no or probably 
minimal added cost. 

442
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,280
I assume the amplification step 
to actually get the DNA from 

443
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,320
there and and screen it. 
It's like minimal biochemical 

444
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,440
added cost. 
So let me put it like that. 

445
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,680
There might be fixed cost in 
terms of doing the data analysis

446
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,200
and so on. 
So if you if right, so if you're

447
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,120
screening should be able to do 
Ant plays. 

448
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,720
Almost certainly, yes. 
Monogenic, absolutely. 

449
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,320
That's always really standard of
care and many parents choose it.

450
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:07,800
And polygenic? 
Guess what? 

451
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,040
First of all, it's already 
happening. 

452
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:15,160
And second of all, you can't, 
you can't draw the line for 

453
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,160
somebody else to marry somebody.
So they're already picking the 

454
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,480
genes of the other partner. 
If they want a tall partner or a

455
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,840
partner who's good at Frisbee, 
like that's already their 

456
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,480
choice, right? 
They're already, in a sense. 

457
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,120
Right. 
The biggest impact on air 

458
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:30,560
embryos is going to be your 
partner. 

459
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,280
It's never, it's never going to 
be the case that your embryo 

460
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,080
screening is going to be have a 
bigger, you know, it's 50% of 

461
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,360
the DNA you're you're choosing 
right there. 

462
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:39,720
So right. 
Yeah. 

463
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,720
So, so you know, like obviously 
that's not roll the dice. 

464
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,440
You're completely intentional 
about partner choice, you know, 

465
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,240
and so this is just really, you 
know, editing around that 

466
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,640
equilibrium. 
It's like plus minus whatever 

467
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,960
percent around that 50% that 
you've already got in there. 

468
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:04,160
So, you know, many medical 
procedures, by the way, you 

469
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,520
know, heart transplants, there 
are people who attack that as 

470
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,120
necrophilia. 
Right. 

471
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600
Actually recently, you know, 
fecal transplants, which sound 

472
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,080
gross, have actually been really
valuable for people with IBS or 

473
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,120
other kinds of things to fix 
their gut microbiome. 

474
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,440
And you know, obviously there's 
a lot of people who are mad 

475
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,040
about not The thing is, it's one
thing to be mad maybe 

476
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,360
specifically about specific 
aspect of the COVID vaccine, but

477
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:33,280
a lot of people have just turned
that into being against the germ

478
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,840
theory of disease writ large. 
Like they generally don't 

479
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,720
understand Cox postulates or 
transmission pathogenesis. 

480
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,320
They they just don't just don't 
understand the immune system or 

481
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,200
how vaccines even work. 
And of course there's like, you 

482
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,120
know, stupidity on on both 
sides, many sides on that on 

483
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:53,480
that issue. 
But the point being that many 

484
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,760
medical procedures, if you're 
just describe them to like a 

485
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,000
medieval peasant, they'd. 
Be destroyed by. 

486
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,120
Them. 
Yeah, it's like, it's extremely 

487
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:09,240
repugnant seeming right, like 
boy, like, I mean, so first of 

488
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,760
all, just any organ, organ 
transplant. 

489
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,360
You could basically make the 
argument that, you know, if you 

490
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,360
break your leg, then you didn't 
God want you to be unable to 

491
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,760
walk for the rest of your life. 
Yes, maybe you could. 

492
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,760
But you could also say, hey, 
look, why don't we put a cast on

493
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,720
it and see if you can if it gets
better. 

494
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,640
That's like the yeah. 
So like for example, organ 

495
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,560
transplants are an obvious 1. 
Isn't that like defiling the 

496
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,000
dead or what have you read? 
Like, you know, necrophilic? 

497
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,720
OK, you know blood transfusions 
very similar, right? 

498
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,720
Wisdom of repugnance would not 
actually be that wise #3. 

499
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,160
Epidural people used to have a 
huge moral panic around epidural

500
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:46,880
right that that's. 
Right. 

501
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,840
Actually doctors, also not 
doctors, used to not tell 

502
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,840
somebody tell a patient if they 
had cancer. 

503
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:53,520
Yeah. 
Right. 

504
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,720
They would keep that information
from from patients. 

505
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480
Seems like a big deal. 
Very very very in local 

506
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,200
apprentice, you know type of 
thing. 

507
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,200
I mean, there's, there's so many
things like essentially modern 

508
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,440
medicine and even hand washing 
was fought tooth and nail. 

509
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,560
Some of these had a huge problem
with that. 

510
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,360
Like people didn't, didn't, 
didn't like him. 

511
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,200
You know many, many things that 
are innovations in medicine. 

512
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,280
Even. 
Even the analysis of go ahead. 

513
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,080
Oh, I was just going to say 
yeah, even you. 

514
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,080
Know urine samples, stool 
samples, Blood samples, you know

515
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,600
analyzing all that stuff 
analyzing all those fluids 

516
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,600
there's a disgust reflex with 
that like a lot of medicine is 

517
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,400
gross right like if you. 
Surgery is gross, right? 

518
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,400
The idea of cutting someone 
open, fixing something. 

519
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,160
Surgery is gross. 
All this stuff. 

520
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,040
Of course, you know, you have, I
mean, there's all kinds of blood

521
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,000
everywhere in the operating room
on a surgery. 

522
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,880
If you were just walking on 
that, you're like, you're 

523
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,560
hurting him, stop, blah, blah, 
blah, blah. 

524
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,000
You know, and you know, you 
wouldn't understand anaesthesia,

525
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,480
you know, basically these are 
just things where the intuitions

526
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,640
of a medieval peasant can only 
really get you so far, right? 

527
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,200
They really the the caveman 
mentality. 

528
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,400
Yeah. 
So sometimes there's a utility 

529
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,840
to it, right? 
Where sometimes there's 

530
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,160
something that's that feels 
weird and actually is bad or 

531
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,080
what have you, right. 
But the problem and, and one of 

532
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,000
the issues is that much of the 
modern scientific establishment 

533
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,440
has said, for example, like XX 
and XY don't exist, right? 

534
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,080
Like chromosomes don't aren't 
functional and so on. 

535
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,920
So I actually understand where 
the sort of medieval peasant 

536
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,240
mentality came from or why it 
came back because they just went

537
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,320
back to extreme basics and just 
relied on their intuitions as a 

538
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,640
caveman. 
But those intuitions are going 

539
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,680
to be different from person to 
person also, right? 

540
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,960
So they're not scalable across 
the site. 

541
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,760
They're very tribal. 
Yeah. 

542
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,760
Anyway, so it's coming back. 
So basically I think what 

543
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,960
what'll eventually happen with 
all of this by the way, and 

544
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,280
let's go back to your your 
slides. 

545
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040
But I think what's going to 
start? 

546
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,600
Yeah, yeah, go. 
No, no, no, you. 

547
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,720
Should yeah, yeah, I think I 
just have like 5 more minutes 

548
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,120
and then we can like get into 
it. 

549
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,000
So basically, you know, if you, 
I think a lot of people really 

550
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,080
underestimate what the power of 
a base pair is, right? 

551
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,640
You know, you have ATCG people 
are like, oh, you know, maybe it

552
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,680
doesn't really matter if you 
swap an A for AT, right? 

553
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,240
So I'm going to try to really 
illustrate and show you kind of 

554
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,760
what the impacts of a single 
base pair are are, right. 

555
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,360
So this is, you know, the 
tallest man in the world, this 

556
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:32,840
is the shortest woman in the 
world. 

557
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,760
And, you know, these conditions,
you know, gigantism and 

558
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,280
achondroplasia are, are really 
caused by, you know, a single 

559
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,440
letter change, right? 
So you're talking about a single

560
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,240
letter in a single gene that 
results. 

561
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,840
In a very good slide. 
Green leads. 

562
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,000
You know, dramatically 
different, you know, you know, 

563
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,000
essentially what happens in, in 
gigantism is that, you know, 

564
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,160
your pituitary system goes into 
OverDrive and sort of a, a 

565
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,720
massive amount of growth hormone
gets dumped and you become, you 

566
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,040
know, extremely tall. 
And, you know, conversely in 

567
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,920
achondroplasia, you know, people
who are who are, who are much, 

568
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,480
much shorter, you know, they 
have a, a critical protein 

569
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,160
that's broken that doesn't 
allow, you know, normal growth. 

570
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,880
And actually if if I recall 
correctly on that particular 

571
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,200
variant is something that's more
common among sperm of older men 

572
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,880
that it's like a hypermutable 
region or something like that 

573
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,960
that tends to tend to see more 
achondroplasia in children of 

574
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,960
older men that there's some sort
of that part of the genome is 

575
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,480
actually more susceptible to 
mutation in that particular. 

576
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,720
Way I actually don't know of 
like the, the full ideology of 

577
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,920
both of these diseases. 
I just think that, you know, 

578
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,800
when you, when you're looking at
that previous slide where we're 

579
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,040
talking about, you know, these 
thousands of, of, of different 

580
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,440
diseases, A lot of these are 
honestly are, are, are fatal or 

581
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,440
extremely serious. 
People don't have an emotional 

582
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,640
reaction to it because they 
don't know someone with, you 

583
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,360
know, arterial calcification or 
any of these, you know, sort of 

584
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,720
diseases that have strange names
are not very relatable. 

585
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,600
But I don't know, I guess what 
I'm trying to get across here is

586
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,560
like, you know, it, it really 
matters, right? 

587
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,200
It could be the difference 
between your child having a 

588
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,400
terminal condition or not. 
It could be the difference 

589
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,800
between, you know, someone, you 
know, being, you know, very, you

590
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,320
know, you know, 3 standard 
deviations from the norm in 

591
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,280
terms of height in either, in 
either direction, right? 

592
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,480
So these changes do matter. 
And, you know, it's very 

593
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,000
reasonable for parents to want 
to scan for this information 

594
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,520
because it can have, you know, 
a, a very significant impact on,

595
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,000
you know, their, their health 
trajectory. 

596
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,440
So we kind of already talked 
about monogenics and I'm going 

597
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,040
to get into polygenic. 
So again, monogenic is sort of 

598
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,200
that, you know, single gene, 
single variant is a specific 

599
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,080
disease. 
Polygenic is trying to 

600
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,720
understand conditions like heart
disease, schizophrenia, bipolar,

601
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,120
where it's not just driven by a 
single gene, but rather it's the

602
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,680
cumulative effect of many, many 
different variants across the 

603
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,400
genome. 
So, you know, the study 

604
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000
designed, the way that they 
actually, you know, build these 

605
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,720
models is, is pretty simple. 
They're looking for a sequence 

606
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680
variation. 
They have sets of people who 

607
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,520
are, you know, unaffected 
controls and then they have 

608
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,080
people who are affected. 
So, you know, folks who have 

609
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,360
schizophrenia, folks who have 
bipolar, and then they're 

610
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,960
looking for enrichment. 
So you know, basically which 

611
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,840
variants are, you know, more 
common in the in the cases as 

612
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,480
opposed to the controls and in 
terms of the performance, this 

613
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,720
is what the shape of these 
curves often look like, right? 

614
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,080
So you're looking at, you know, 
how often do people get heart 

615
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,800
disease and what is the 
percentile of their risk score? 

616
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,200
So in the 50th percentile, 
that's about average. 

617
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,520
And then what you can see is 
that there's a really strong 

618
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,960
risk increase when you get to 
the the much higher percentiles,

619
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,480
right? 
The 95th plus percentile of 

620
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,280
risk, right? 
So that's kind of what the type 

621
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,960
of risk that we highlight. 
It doesn't really matter if you 

622
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,640
know the 30th versus the 70th 
percentile because a very small 

623
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,280
increase in risk. 
But if you're at the tails of 

624
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,000
these distributions, there is a 
very strong signal from that 

625
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,880
genetic component. 
So that's kind of what parents 

626
00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,560
can learn. 
Is that OK? 

627
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,400
Is my embryo in that low risk or
average risk category or is my 

628
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,280
embryo in that high? 
Risk, the thing about it is 

629
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,680
there's N variables on which 
you've got curves like this, 

630
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,200
whether they look exactly like 
this or not because that is 

631
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,840
coronary artery disease, you've 
got N more that are like that. 

632
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,040
Yeah. 
And so how do you how do you 

633
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,400
think about the multi variable 
aspect of that because some an 

634
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,440
embryo that's high on some of 
these will be low on others? 

635
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
That's actually a great. 

636
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,040
So I'll actually get into that. 
So basically one one thing that.

637
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,680
Because you're doing best of N 
across a vector of K variables, 

638
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,440
or K is usually much greater 
than N. 

639
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So I think one of the things 

640
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,400
that people are really trying to
understand is that, you know, if

641
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,080
I'm, you know, selecting an 
embryo that's low risk for for 

642
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,080
one condition, does that mean 
that they're going to, you know,

643
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,120
conversely be higher risk for 
another condition? 

644
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,320
And they've actually already 
built what's called correlation 

645
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,520
matrices where they'll say, OK, 
is heart disease correlated with

646
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,040
atrial fibrillation? 
Is it correlated with 

647
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,760
schizophrenia? 
Is it correlated with bipolar 

648
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:53,840
results? 
They've done this, Yeah, but. 

649
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,120
You wouldn't. 
You wouldn't need to do it that 

650
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,280
way because you actually have. 
If I'm not mistaken, you have 

651
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,960
actually the raw underlying ACS,
GS and TS. 

652
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,360
So you can form, let's say you 
have N embryos and you have K 

653
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,320
conditions on which you're 
screening for. 

654
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,840
And then each of those K 
conditions has M sub K 

655
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,040
underlying loci, right, That 
contribute to it, which is a 

656
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,040
ragged list for each of them, 
right. 

657
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,120
Then you can, you don't have to 
do the calculations. 

658
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,920
You can actually go to the exact
loci and you can say, let me 

659
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,720
calculate the PGS for this N by 
K table. 

660
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,960
And then you can just see, you 
know? 

661
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,840
How many shared variants are 
there? 

662
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,720
Yeah, right. 
Yeah, yeah. 

663
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,400
So basically I guess what I'm 
getting at is like what you see 

664
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,200
is there's there's an 
aggregation with diseases that 

665
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,440
have that are related. 
So basically heart related 

666
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,360
conditions, you know, heart 
disease, atrial fibrillation, 

667
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,200
those aggregate together. 
They have a shared architecture.

668
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,400
Mental health conditions like 
bipolar disorder, schizophrenia,

669
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,360
they aggregate together, right? 
So what ends up happening is you

670
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,600
get to actually reduce risk for 
multiple conditions at once, 

671
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,600
right? 
So an embryo that's, you know, 

672
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,280
high risk for schizophrenia is 
also, you know, likely to 

673
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,600
there's a there, there is a 
shared genetic architecture for 

674
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,840
other mental health conditions. 
So rather than there being a 

675
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,280
trade off, what what actually 
happens is that a lot of these 

676
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,800
conditions that are for similar 
systems end up actually having 

677
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,480
those those shared variants. 
So anyways, I think that's I'm 

678
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,160
trying to kind of just kind of 
respond quickly to what people 

679
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,000
usually they're, they're sort of
immediate. 

680
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,440
And how many conditions are you 
looking at there besides 

681
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200
coronary artery disease? 
We're looking at about 12:00. 

682
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,080
I'm going to give you the, the 
full list, but kind of thinking 

683
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,760
about this, you know, sort of 
from like the South Asian 

684
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,240
standpoint, right? 
If you roll the dice, you might 

685
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,520
get an average outcome, right? 
So what if the average outcome 

686
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,560
is chronic disease, right? 
So all S Asians, we get heart 

687
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,080
disease at, you know, 4 * a 
higher rate than any other 

688
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,880
ethnic population, right? 
We're twice as likely to to die.

689
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,360
You know, 25% of heart attacks 
occur under 40 for South Asians,

690
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,000
and 50% occur under the age of 
50. 

691
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,960
So we're getting heart disease 
10 years earlier than the rest 

692
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,040
of the population, right? 
So I don't want that to affect 

693
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,640
my child. 
Just because that's something 

694
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,880
that, you know, a lot of South 
Asians have, that doesn't mean 

695
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,360
that I want that to, you know, 
automatically be a part of, you 

696
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,840
know, these are one of the 
biggest causes of death, right? 

697
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,239
Like, and especially in terms 
of, you know, reducing the 

698
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,760
quality of of life, right? 
A heart attack, even if you 

699
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,199
survive it, it's sort of, you 
know, you, you, you are able to 

700
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,199
run as a lot of consequences of 
this, right. 

701
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,320
So the idea that parents 
shouldn't have access to 

702
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,639
mitigating the biggest vector in
terms of mitigating risk for 

703
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,080
disease. 
Yeah. 

704
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,560
I just, I just think it's 
insane, right? 

705
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,159
Because what you what you can 
see, right? 

706
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,880
You're just talking about. 
OK, You know, what are, you 

707
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,719
know, you're trying quantify 
like from from like the math 

708
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,639
perspective, how much risk 
reduction is actually possible. 

709
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,520
And it's, it's really remarkable
how much you can get with a 

710
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,600
really small number of embryos. 
So this is looking at kind of 

711
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,640
the worst, worst case scenario, 
right? 

712
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,760
So let's say you have two 
parents, both mom and dad are at

713
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,720
high risk. 
And what you can see is that you

714
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,000
can get a 30% risk reduction 
with five embryos with, you 

715
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,320
know, a pretty, you know, poorly
performing model. 

716
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,960
And if you're in and this 
analysis, by the way, you know, 

717
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,960
wasn't done by Orkut is done by 
an independent physical 

718
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,000
geneticist who just published 
this paper that I just love 

719
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,400
these these figures that that he
produced. 

720
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,120
So then, you know, if you use a 
slightly better model, you get a

721
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,280
40% risk reduction with five 
embryos. 

722
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,320
And then with an even better 
model, you get a 55% risk 

723
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,720
reduction with just five 
embryos, right. 

724
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:34,560
So this is. 
Interesting to start stopping 

725
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,200
out. 
Wait a second, So the software 

726
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,280
again is the difference between 
the triangles, the circles and 

727
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,120
the squares? 
Yes, yes. 

728
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,120
OK. 
So just and then once you get to

729
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,640
about 9:00 or so embryos. 
Yeah, right. 

730
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,520
Yeah, yeah. 
So yeah, you're seeing this this

731
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,320
behavior where it starts to 
flatten out, right, Because you 

732
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,240
sort of sampled from the 
distribution in terms of how 

733
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:00,120
much risk you can reduce. 
On on one condition. 

734
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,960
Yeah, this is on one condition. 
Right. 

735
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,520
But multivariate, the problem is
if you're optimizing the minimum

736
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:14,200
risk on one of your 12 things, 
the other 11 are loose and can 

737
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,440
have higher risk, right? 
So you have some weighted sum of

738
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,320
them that you're doing this on. 
Well, this one, this one is not 

739
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,200
looking at all. 
We can look into the methods, 

740
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,040
but this figure specifically is 
talking about reducing risk for 

741
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,480
one condition. 
No, I know, I know. 

742
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,200
But basically you'd have this 
kind of figure for each of the 

743
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:40,880
12, but stopped reducing risk 
for let's say you picked the the

744
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,240
best of five that got you the 
lowest risk on condition one, 

745
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,040
right? 
Then conditions 2 through 12, 

746
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,680
you might have higher risk. 
So you have to sort of spend 

747
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,520
your optimization budget. 
Yes, yes, exactly. 

748
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,560
So, so, so the thing you want to
think about is that probably for

749
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,720
those other conditions, if 
you're playing in this realm, 

750
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:01,920
it's not going to make a big 
difference. 

751
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,880
So you really want to be 
focusing on what is the 

752
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,640
condition that your embryos are 
at high risk for where there's a

753
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,840
really big delta, you know, 
right, You want to just get them

754
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,280
out of that like 97th plus 
percentile, which usually for 

755
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,600
for 12, you're not going to have
multiple where you have embryos,

756
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,280
like you're not going to have 
for multiple diseases that 

757
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,680
you're in the top three 
percentile of risk. 

758
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,840
If that makes sense, right? 
Because if you're playing that, 

759
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,720
that that's kind of does that 
make sense to explain that with 

760
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:24,560
us? 
Yeah, totally. 

761
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:25,880
Keep going. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

762
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,320
So, yeah, so basically this is 
kind of like the worst case 

763
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,880
scenario, right? 
You have, you have you're pretty

764
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,560
constrained because both mom and
dad are high risk and you still 

765
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,800
get this pretty massive, right, 
30 to 55% risk reduction, right?

766
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,480
So people don't really have, 
again, a good way to 

767
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,480
conceptualize how massive this 
risk reduction is. 

768
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,480
So what I'm trying to compare it
to you is, you know, this is 

769
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,720
more powerful than the most 
successful drugs on the market, 

770
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:51,760
right? 
Drugs that are making, you know,

771
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,080
a billion install year, right? 
So here's here's 2 drugs you 

772
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,760
have, you know, drug for COPD. 
There's just basically one 

773
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,280
obvious point of this is there's
just massive healthcare savings 

774
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,160
from this potentially if we can 
get IVF and so on out there 

775
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,240
because just like many. 
Yeah, usually what I'm trying to

776
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,480
get people to grok is like, 
medicine is not very good, 

777
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,280
right? 
It costs a billion dollars and 

778
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,760
10 years to get a drug to 
market. 

779
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,760
Or you you prefer to be fixed at
the genome level rather than 

780
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:20,760
ever? 
Yeah. 

781
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,760
But even more than that, I mean,
it only has a 30% relative risk 

782
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,440
reduction. 
That's what we're comparing, 

783
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,720
relative risk reduction to 
relative risk reduction, right? 

784
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:30,320
We'll talk about absolute risk 
reduction later. 

785
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,200
But the point is, is that some 
of the best drugs on the market 

786
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,360
only get a 30% relative risk 
reduction. 

787
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,840
Then you're leased to that drug 
for life and there's side 

788
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,360
effects, right? 
If you do this for your embryos,

789
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,960
there are no side effects, 
right? 

790
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,320
Like you already decided to do 
IVF, you're picking an embryo. 

791
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,640
The question is just do you want
the embryo to be at higher risk 

792
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,080
or lower risk? 
And then that that risk level is

793
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,320
the same for life. 
You don't have to like take a, 

794
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,800
you know, continually take a 
drug every single day, right? 

795
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,960
Because the other thing is that 
when they do these studies, 

796
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,720
right? 
Like you don't actually get the 

797
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:01,920
benefit if you're not perfectly 
adherent to the medication, 

798
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,080
right? 
And there's entire companies 

799
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,600
that are built around how do you
get someone to actually remember

800
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,320
to take a drug every day, right?
That's also not trivial, even if

801
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,440
you get, you know, a drug to 
work. 

802
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,200
OK. 
So yeah, then if you kind of 

803
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,120
look across the other 
situations, right, like you 

804
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,400
might not be in that most 
constrained situation where both

805
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,560
mom and dad are at high risk, 
right? 

806
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,880
If you're in the situation where
mom and dad are average risk, 

807
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,520
you know, you're getting up to 
an 80% risk reduction, right? 

808
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,760
If you're in the situation where
one is high and one is low, 

809
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,760
you're kind of, you know, 
topping out at maybe 70% 

810
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,640
depending on, you know, what the
power of that predictor is, how 

811
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,120
well understood it is. 
So yeah, all of this is to say 

812
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,680
that this is like a huge area 
where people can potentially, 

813
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,280
you know, massively change the 
trajectory of their child's life

814
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,280
with really kind of a like 
surprisingly minimal cost for 

815
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,520
like how big of a component the 
genetics is. 

816
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,320
And kind of this is kind of what
I was trying to talk about 

817
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,360
earlier, which is, you know, 
what are the genetic trade-offs,

818
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,200
right. 
So you can do. 

819
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,480
You can build these correlation 
matrices where you look at you 

820
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,920
know which conditions are are 
correlated to which other ones. 

821
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,480
And you can see that, you know, 
psychiatric conditions, you 

822
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,440
know, kind of are, are the most 
correlated with each other. 

823
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,640
You know, cardiovascular 
conditions are correlated with 

824
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,480
each other. 
But you know, schizophrenia is 

825
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,720
not correlated with height. 
It's not correlated with type 2 

826
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,560
diabetes, right. 
So it, it's not the case that, 

827
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,720
you know, you're necessarily 
trading off risk for one thing 

828
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,120
for another thing. 
And, you know, people, again, 

829
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,360
not just work it, but the entire
physical genetics community has 

830
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,120
done a ton of work to look into 
this and to, and to see, you 

831
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,680
know, what are the potential, 
you know, trade-offs or, or, or,

832
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,080
or or shared architectures 
between these conditions. 

833
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,520
Yeah, this is kind of the the 
take home point, right, is that 

834
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,760
having lower genetic risk at 
birth is, is likely more 

835
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,320
powerful than almost anything 
else that you can do later in 

836
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,720
life, right? 
There's no diet, there's no 

837
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,080
exercise that's going to, you 
know, mitigate risk for 

838
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,400
schizophrenia, right? 
There's nothing that can, you 

839
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,160
know, change, you know, the 
chance that your child has 

840
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,920
pediatric cancer, if they have a
specific variant that makes it 

841
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,520
extremely likely for them to 
have it, right. 

842
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,960
So I, I don't know, I think it's
sort of like this massive 

843
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,040
benefit that's hiding in plain 
sight that people are, you know,

844
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,560
instead of embracing, they're 
kind of, you know, coming up 

845
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,000
with these really. 
Yeah. 

846
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,760
Illogical arguments for why it 
should be stigmatized. 

847
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,200
Yep. 
Basically, The thing is, go 

848
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,960
ahead. 
Oh, I was, I think, sorry, I 

849
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,200
think this is the last point, 
right? 

850
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,920
So it's sort of like people have
actually already surveyed the 

851
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,800
public and said, you know, what 
is their opinion about embryo 

852
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,840
screening for, you know, 
childhood onset, adult onset, 

853
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,200
polygenic, monogenic. 
And the American public is 

854
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,960
really strongly in favor of 
this, right? 

855
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,440
72% either strongly approve or 
approve of embryo screening. 

856
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,440
And here's a number that I think
is actually even more 

857
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,160
surprising, right? 
So 30% of Americans would either

858
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,160
definitely consider or. 
That's a random sample. 

859
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,560
Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's, it's OK.
This is a random sample and it's

860
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,920
also older folks. 
So I actually think that if you 

861
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,800
like, I think the average age 
was I think like 40 or 45, which

862
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,840
I think is is older than. 
Fascinating. 

863
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,680
Article you know the set of 
folks who are actually going to 

864
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,280
be considering having kids so if
anything I think this is an 

865
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,760
underestimate of how many people
would consider you know doing 

866
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,160
IVF and I think it's. 
Actually, 2024 paper. 

867
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,640
Yeah, yeah. 
So I think that I think people 

868
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,920
should be really shocked by this
number, right? 

869
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,760
The fact that 1/3 of Americans 
are considering, hey, I would 

870
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,160
not have babies the old 
fashioned way. 

871
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,560
I would rather have babies 
consider using using IVF in 

872
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,800
order to mitigate risk for these
conditions that I've been 

873
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,880
affected by. 
I think that that's extremely. 

874
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,360
Interesting nationally 
representative sample. 

875
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,160
Yeah. 
At least for, yeah. 

876
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,360
Yeah. 
So I think that this idea that, 

877
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,840
you know, IVF is somehow like 
IVF is very different if you 

878
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,120
are, you know, fertile and 
you're not struggling with 

879
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,960
infertility, right? 
It's sort of like, hey, it's 

880
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,400
like this inconvenience that you
have to be on medication for two

881
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,080
days and you know, it's like AI 
mean for a lot of people. 

882
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,320
It's like a bad period, right. 
I'm, I'm not trying to diminish,

883
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,840
you know what it's like to fight
infertility. 

884
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,440
It is extremely difficult. 
You know, if you, you know, have

885
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,720
PCOS, endometriosis, a lot of 
these other conditions, 

886
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,240
infertility is like equivalent 
to a cancer diagnosis. 

887
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:19,360
But for fertile people, you 
know, it's an extra, you know, 

888
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,000
two to three weeks of discomfort
compared to, Hey, you're going 

889
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,200
to have a nine month pregnancy. 
You're going to raise this child

890
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,880
for life. 
You know, do you really want to 

891
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,480
risk, you know, a condition that
you've been affected by or kind 

892
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,280
of these random genetic typos 
affecting a child? 

893
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,240
And I think that a lot of 
parents are going to say no, 

894
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:37,600
right? 
I mean, even just if you think 

895
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,160
about miscarriage, right? 
I mean, it's extremely, yeah, 

896
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,280
it's, it's extremely, you know, 
emotionally costly to. 

897
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:46,320
Oh, they're here. 
I can. 

898
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,240
Yeah, I can share the screen for
a second myself. 

899
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,760
So here is the article that 
you're just mentioning, just 

900
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:52,960
pulling it up while you're 
talking. 

901
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,080
Here is the on approval of 
interest in polygenic ambient 

902
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,040
screen by this is a 2024 
article. 

903
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,960
And so actually this is a great 
figure. 45% approve, 30% 

904
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,840
strongly approve should be 
allowed. 80% This is an amazing 

905
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,600
graph. 
It's just for the just for the 

906
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,280
Twitter bubble, just for just 
for people to know. 

907
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,160
Just FYI, it's like 80% should 
be allowed. 

908
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,880
OK #1. 
And it's even higher idea, 

909
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:24,520
right? 
The idea that. 

910
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,840
Like there's like yeah, very for
the purpose of PS us exactly. 

911
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,240
And then approval for various 
outcomes. 

912
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:34,320
So you know, for health 
conditions, it's like 

913
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,840
overwhelmingly there, right. 
But even for and psychiatric 

914
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,160
conditions like mental illness, 
overwhelmingly there. 

915
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:46,000
But even here it's like close to
5050, right. 

916
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,760
Like, you know, these are these 
are looking like, you know, in 

917
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,520
the sense of no opinion. 
If you delete no opinion in a 

918
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,600
sense, right, these are close, 
you know, so it's like maybe 

919
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,160
it's 5 to 1 ratio or something 
like what's that like 80 to 10, 

920
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,400
eight to one ratio for some of 
these bars. 

921
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,240
And here it's like a one to one,
right, in the sense of close to 

922
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:10,280
5050. 
But that's actually that's, 

923
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,560
that's what I'd call this is non
controversial and this is 

924
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,000
controversial, but in the sense 
of 50% support and 50% 

925
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,000
opposition, which means on the 
order of 50% of states or 

926
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,960
jurisdictions may actually 
legalize it, right. 

927
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:28,040
So, and then, you know, if you 
look at what conditions and 

928
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,880
traits and so on, so cancer, 
heart disease, Alzheimer's, 

929
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,160
diabetes, just basically 
overwhelming like this, you 

930
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,960
know, and you get to obesity and
that's actually still pretty 

931
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,440
high over here. 
And it's only only when you get 

932
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,600
to skin color that's like 
extremely negative, even like 

933
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,560
intelligent. 
So again, this is, this is 

934
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,680
close, right? 
It's, it's more disapproved than

935
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,080
approved, but it's not orders to
magnitude. 

936
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,280
You add up the red and the 
yellow versus the blue and the 

937
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,240
other blue over here, 
neuroticism and so on. 

938
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,960
So BMI is basically very similar
to obesity. 

939
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,760
So it's interesting that it's 
different. 

940
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,560
The phrasing of the question 
sometimes matters, and then, you

941
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:10,000
know, concerns. 
Interesting, interesting paper. 

942
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,720
Good. 
Paper yeah, so so I think it's 

943
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,040
just people don't you're you're 
totally right There's like a 

944
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,280
Twitter bubble and people don't 
realize that you know, the vast.

945
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,640
Majority of the FYI 80% of 
people support embryo screening 

946
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:26,160
in a toy 24 seti. 
Yeah, it's just important. 

947
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,520
Actually send me your deck also 
because I will preview this. 

948
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:36,320
I will preview this pod with the
with both that and the one base 

949
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,560
pair, right? 
Like is 8 foot 3 versus 2 foot 

950
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,000
7. 
You know, literally 1D 

951
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,320
alteration. 
Because just I want to give you 

952
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,760
just one asterisk on that one, 
so I don't have those people's 

953
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,680
genomes. 
I just looked up for gigantism 

954
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,640
and achondroplasia. 
OK, No, no. 

955
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:54,320
So. 
Yeah, so. 

956
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:56,720
Basically, we're not giving them
a diagnosis. 

957
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,360
I'm just saying for gigantism 
and achondroplasia, this is 

958
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:00,800
these are the single base pair 
of causes of it. 

959
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,040
So just I'll give you like exact
copy if you want of like how 

960
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,720
what those mean, but I just want
to give the caveat. 

961
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:07,320
It's like we're not giving them 
a diagnosis. 

962
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,320
We're saying for people who have
gigantism, right, controplasia. 

963
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,200
So I think I want your 
commentary on like the moral 

964
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,600
necessity of this and then maybe
a little bit of your commentary 

965
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,680
on the scientific side too, 
because I think I might have 

966
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,520
gone too deep. 
So I'd rather I would like for 

967
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:20,600
you to like summarize it 
because. 

968
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:27,360
Well, well, first is I mean on 
the left. 

969
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,880
The entire thing for the last 50
years has been my body, my 

970
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,120
choice. 
So how could I possibly do not 

971
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,320
extend? 
How could you? 

972
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,120
How could you define 
reproductive choice so narrowly 

973
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,560
as to say it only extends like 
you can only turn me in some 

974
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,200
cases or not others or screen 
and survey. 

975
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,160
That doesn't make any sense at 
all, right? 

976
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,240
So just reap just choice alone. 
So basically everybody who's in 

977
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,080
favor of reproductive choice on 
the left should obviously be in 

978
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,360
favor of embryo screening or 
certainly not pushing to ban it,

979
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:01,480
even if they don't do it 
themselves. 

980
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,400
If it, you know, as they used to
say, if if you don't want it, 

981
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,240
don't have one right. 
As to the right, I do understand

982
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:08,840
the social conservative 
argument. 

983
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,400
I disagree with it because I 
think that the quote wisdom of 

984
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,120
repugnance could be applied to 
many, many, many, many things, 

985
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,600
right. 
And what we think of as normal, 

986
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,080
like circumcision could be 
considered really bizarre and, 

987
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,720
and is considered bizarre. 
And in some historical cultures 

988
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:28,640
or what have you, heart 
transplants would be considered 

989
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,040
bizarre. 
In some cultures, certainly past

990
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:37,640
culture, surgeries like the 
screening of blood, you know, 

991
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,000
urine samples, fecal samples, 
all the stuff that's like 

992
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,520
completely normal in any 
biomedical clinic. 

993
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,760
If you just go by, oh, that 
grosses me out, you wouldn't do 

994
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,800
it. 
And we have millions of IVF 

995
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,720
babies and we have millions of 
IVF procedures and we have 

996
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,240
existing screening for an 
employees and monogenic 

997
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:57,080
disorders. 
We have all the infrastructure 

998
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,400
set up. 
We have 80% support from people,

999
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,000
as your paper shows, for 
screening even in the West, and 

1000
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,040
it's almost certainly higher in 
the East, just given, given the 

1001
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,320
numbers I've seen. 
And the whole point of the Human

1002
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,280
Genome project, billions and 
billions and billions of dollars

1003
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,280
was to use the genome for human 
health. 

1004
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,520
Like all these taxpayer dollars 
went into this. 

1005
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,480
So that's yet another argument. 
That is, if you were a taxpayer 

1006
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,920
on this, it's your right to use 
that information, right? 

1007
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,880
And then you're also choosing 
your partner. 

1008
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,080
That's 50%. 
And that certainly wasn't a roll

1009
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,680
of the dice. 
And this is like an edit around 

1010
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,800
that. 
Then moreover, for many 

1011
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,080
populations like S Asians, 
chronic disease is actually 

1012
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,160
unfortunately the average 
outcome because in the modern 

1013
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,800
environment, modern nutritional 
environment, we have very high 

1014
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:52,840
rates of, of heart disease and 
of type 2 diabetes and other 

1015
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,520
kinds of conditions. 
And she put all that together 

1016
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:06,240
and it is really something where
people are, some people are just

1017
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,880
reacting in this really stupid 
emotional way. 

1018
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,480
And you know what? 
That's their right for 

1019
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,880
themselves, you know, for 
themselves, whatever. 

1020
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,040
You know, I'm not certainly not 
saying they should do it if they

1021
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,080
don't want to do it, but they 
definitely can't stop somebody 

1022
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,160
else. 
Because at some place, you know,

1023
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,080
some point on the face of the 
earth, there will be given, 

1024
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,960
given that it's controversial, 
not in a 99 one way, but at most

1025
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,400
a 5050 way, there will be 50% of
jurisdictions that do it. 

1026
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,000
And then what are you going to 
do? 

1027
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,560
You can reverse the argument on 
them. 

1028
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,240
You're going to discriminate 
against that IVF baby. 

1029
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:43,840
Oh, huh. 
You know what? 

1030
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,480
You think they shouldn't exist, 
right? 

1031
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:52,040
And so in general, I think one 
of the most interesting things 

1032
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,280
about this, by the way, is a dog
that didn't bark, which is that 

1033
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:02,640
tech is in favor of this, right?
And that is that is a huge thing

1034
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,440
where the builders are in fear 
of this because we know life is 

1035
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,960
hard enough. 
Life is there's a lot of 

1036
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:15,600
difficulties in life. 
And you know, if, if somebody 

1037
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,760
has chronic disease, heart 
disease or something at 50 and 

1038
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,640
they could have not had it, why,
why would you, You know, it's 

1039
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,320
this weird thing where life 
expectancy, by the way, as you 

1040
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,960
know, was quite low in 800 
average life expectancy because 

1041
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,080
all kinds of infant mortality 
had not been solved, right? 

1042
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,440
So infant mortality was very 
high in the past. 

1043
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,120
And as a consequence, some, you 
know, people used to write and, 

1044
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,520
and even adult mortality was 
high, depending on how far back 

1045
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,880
you go, right? 
And I mean people within our 

1046
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,960
not, I mean great grandparents 
generation, all kinds of modern 

1047
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,520
conveniences from electricity, 
running water, all kinds of 

1048
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:03,160
things were just not present. 
And so you know really what it's

1049
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,080
related to. 
I think the resistance, not, I 

1050
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,440
mean the resistance to embryo 
screening is part and part I 

1051
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,560
think of a broader anti tech 
thing within the West, which is 

1052
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,080
like people setting self driving
cars on fire, right? 

1053
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,600
People getting mad about AI, 
people getting mad about crypto,

1054
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,120
people getting mad about 
immigrants taking their jobs, 

1055
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,880
people getting mad about, you 
know, data centers and their 

1056
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,840
electricity consumption or 
something like this. 

1057
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:30,000
People just getting mad about 
tech at all because tech is 

1058
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,320
changing a lot of things and 
they just want, you know, no 

1059
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,560
more stop. 
You know, I want to just, I just

1060
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,080
want to stop. 
I want to reverse the world and 

1061
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,720
so on. 
This is similar emotion in the 

1062
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:45,520
late 1800s, early 1900s around 
the industrial revolution and 

1063
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,120
you know, because the big 
belching factories, all the 

1064
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,600
pollution and so on. 
And to be clear, I'm not saying 

1065
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,560
that there aren't some, you 
know, like we developed cars and

1066
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,240
then we developed walkable 
societies and we took away 

1067
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:59,760
highways from some parts and so 
and so, so we developed the 

1068
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,920
thing and we realized we'd over 
developed it somewhat. 

1069
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,400
So we removed some developments,
but we kept developing cars 

1070
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,840
because we still did electric 
cars and self driving cars and 

1071
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,000
now flying cars, but we also had
walkable communities. 

1072
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,680
And so there's a balance between
them. 

1073
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,560
And you know, my view is life is
difficult enough. 

1074
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,960
Why roll the dice doesn't 
matter. 

1075
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:20,040
Why roll the dice when you'd 
have to? 

1076
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,000
There's going to be 5 1000 more 
dice rolls. 

1077
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,720
Yeah, you could just hit by a 
car. 

1078
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,320
Why do you want to also have to 
go blind? 

1079
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,400
Yeah, you can. 
You can already get hit by 

1080
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,760
lightning, you get hit by a car,
you can, I mean, there's, 

1081
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,600
there's 5 million other things 
that can go wrong, right? 

1082
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,560
Why you want to, you know, 
again, this is this is the kind 

1083
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,760
of person I think who maybe they
don't want to put on their seat 

1084
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,680
belt, but why are they 
preventing you from putting on a

1085
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,800
seat belt you. 
Know yeah So what do you think 

1086
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,240
is the steel man like what do 
you think is the most like I 

1087
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:50,320
think we talked a lot about the 
arguments that kind of are just 

1088
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,800
nonsensical they they they they 
just result from ignorance of 

1089
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,840
not understanding how the genome
works how IVF works, how you 

1090
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,000
know genetic screening works 
right. 

1091
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,920
So what do you think are maybe 
even the most, oh, sincere? 

1092
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,840
Arguments. 
Yeah, sure, the steel man would 

1093
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,240
be that far. 
Leftists have abused science to 

1094
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:14,080
call it capital S science. 
And they said masks don't work 

1095
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,720
before they do. 
And they said that the during 

1096
00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:20,760
the BLM riots that racism is a 
real pandemic after telling 

1097
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,120
everybody to stay inside and 
they people ran outside and they

1098
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,440
call a paper that was published 
a day ago in Nature, they call 

1099
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,760
that science, capital S science 
as if it has the same number of 

1100
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,640
replications as Maxwell's 
equations. 

1101
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,520
Because they equate prestigious 
citation with and they they 

1102
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,640
basically substitute prestigious
citation for independent 

1103
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,640
replication, independent 
replication of sciences. 

1104
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,400
Yeah, go ahead. 
Oh yeah, Just to say yeah, like.

1105
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,960
Yeah, and by. 
The more than Yeah, the 

1106
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,480
replication matters way more 
than just a journalist. 

1107
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,320
Yeah, exactly. 
And so The thing is that the 

1108
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,920
peer review basically means like
two or three thumbs UPS. 

1109
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,000
It's like if you imagine acting,
you need to be a social network 

1110
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,160
where people post papers, two or
three likes from someone in that

1111
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,480
social network. 
It's a peer reviewed paper. 

1112
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,320
It's not like they're, it's rare
that someone goes and replicates

1113
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,080
the result where they replicate 
the result is on GitHub where 

1114
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,000
you get clone and then you try 
to compile it or build it, 

1115
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,840
right. 
So that's actually where you get

1116
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,920
replications. 
And that's actually the future 

1117
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:18,960
of what academia is. 
It looks a lot more like GitHub 

1118
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,840
and reproducible research and so
on and so forth. 

1119
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,800
But so, so because of that, 
there's and of course 

1120
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,960
universities are like 99% 
Democrat or something like that.

1121
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,720
And a lot of people have not 
gotten a share of all this 

1122
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:36,200
technological progress. 
And of course, we're also 

1123
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,560
demographically different from a
lot of people. 

1124
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,880
You know, we are. 
So tech is in the US, it's 

1125
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,600
focused on the West Coast, it's 
focused in cities. 

1126
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,600
It's got a lot of immigrants, 
got a lot of Indians, 

1127
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:50,920
Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, 
Japanese, gays, Jews. 

1128
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:54,280
That's that's how, you know, the
right, we consider it foreign. 

1129
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,520
And then for the left, it has 
too many white men, capitalists 

1130
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,000
and you know, so on and so 
forth, right. 

1131
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:04,560
And, and so both the far left 
and the far right look at it as 

1132
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,880
alien and different. 
And the far left emphasizes the 

1133
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,360
capitalism and the right 
emphasizes the immigrants. 

1134
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,000
And the left doesn't like the 
economic change and the right 

1135
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,400
doesn't like the cultural 
change. 

1136
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,200
And they basically just wanted 
to go back to the way it was 

1137
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,440
very roughly right. 
And that is just an. 

1138
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,000
Overlying. 
Go ahead. 

1139
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:25,600
Status quo bias is what you're 
saying. 

1140
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,800
More than SAS quo bias, 
Unabomber bias, right? 

1141
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,120
What I, what I actually think is
going to happen, just to digress

1142
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,480
for a second, is not even 
digress many years ago, I mean 

1143
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,400
five years ago ish, I realized, 
and I wrote about this at the 

1144
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:44,040
time, that after all the Sturman
drawing that after everything is

1145
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,400
said and done, the final 
political axis will be, let's 

1146
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,560
call it futurism versus 
primitivism, right? 

1147
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,000
They will call it humanism 
versus transhumanism because 

1148
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,120
they'll say, Oh my God, 
transhumanism, it's all bad, 

1149
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,800
blah blah, blah. 
So and we're just being human. 

1150
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:05,240
We're being normal right now. 
The thing is being a normal 

1151
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:10,480
human minions, no electricity, 
no running water, no light 

1152
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,280
bulbs. 
And so it's over in their heads.

1153
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,240
OK. 
And and so like, there's no way 

1154
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,240
that that societies, cities 
could could have the carrying 

1155
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,760
capacity to to have a Unabomber 
lifestyle where he's literally 

1156
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,400
living in the woods. 
But we do have that as part of 

1157
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,840
our DNA in a literal sense 
because we, you know, our common

1158
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,920
ancestors were similar to 
chimps. 

1159
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,680
And so we do have millennia of, 
you know, the outdoors and and 

1160
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,240
so on in our DNA in a sense. 
So there's some, you know, 

1161
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,040
genetic yearning for that, I'm 
sure. 

1162
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,400
However, there's another 
interpretation, which is that 

1163
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,280
humanity is actually defined by 
technology. 

1164
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,440
For example, Richard Rangam is 
this book, which is like cooking

1165
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:52,440
made as human. 
Why? 

1166
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,360
Because the fire allowed us to 
externalize metabolism, so you 

1167
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,800
could spend less energy on your 
gut and put more to the brain. 

1168
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,040
And then if you you take fire, 
you take weapons like the spear,

1169
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,320
you take clothes, right? 
The spear, you don't need fangs 

1170
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,240
with the clothes. 
You don't need fur with a fire, 

1171
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,240
you don't need gut enzymes. 
And all three of them freed up 

1172
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:19,040
more calories for the brain. 
And so encephalization quotient 

1173
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,680
just rose across hominids. 
And you know, I posted that a 

1174
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,680
while ago. 
It's like the first singularity.

1175
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,840
Did you see that? 
The original singularity. 

1176
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,960
Oh, this? 
Is a good one, yeah. 

1177
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,160
So basically it's like it's like
basically it took, you know, 

1178
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,080
millions of years for, you know,
the human brain to evolve. 

1179
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,480
So it's sort of like if you 
compare that to, you know, GP US

1180
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,400
and CP US, it's like the time 
scales are very different. 

1181
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:45,960
Yeah. 
And by the way. 

1182
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,320
Elon agrees. 
True, right? 

1183
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,760
But this is the original 
singularity, right? 

1184
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:58,160
And the thing about this is what
that means is since humans 

1185
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,280
began, we have been pushing it 
into software. 

1186
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:06,680
It's the same process that took 
all of the, you know, took fangs

1187
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,400
and threw them into Spears and 
took fur and turned into clothes

1188
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,040
and that took gut enzymes, 
turned into fire and pushed 

1189
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,960
everything into the brain. 
To manipulate all these tools is

1190
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,520
the same thing that's taken all 
kinds of devices from a camera 

1191
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,760
to a recorder and so on and push
them into software in the phone.

1192
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,280
The same kind of thing that's 
taken all kinds of tools and 

1193
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,240
just pushes them into AI, right?
That takes all kinds of stuff 

1194
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,840
and pushes into the screen and 
into software and you have less 

1195
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,800
hardware and it's more done in 
software, right? 

1196
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,520
So we have been doing this 
concept of push everything into 

1197
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,400
general purpose software has 
actually been a winning strategy

1198
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,760
for 10 million years, right? 
And this also says actually what

1199
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:53,600
makes ACMN is the use of 
technology, because an ape can't

1200
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,920
use a spear. 
It can it can jump, you know, 

1201
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,480
along the woods or whatever, 
right. 

1202
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,080
But it you know, or maybe they 
can use some basic tool use. 

1203
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:01,680
We understand my point. 
They can't, they can't. 

1204
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,160
Animals, unlike humans, 
basically can't use technology, 

1205
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:07,600
certainly not advanced 
technology. 

1206
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,840
So actually technology is what 
makes us human and reversing 

1207
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,640
technological progress, you 
know, stopping to let alone 

1208
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:16,960
reversing it actually makes us 
unhuman. 

1209
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,680
It's anti human, right. 
So that's why I called them 

1210
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,960
primitivists. 
Because they want to regress to 

1211
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,200
something in the name of doing 
something natural. 

1212
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,720
They're doing something 
unnatural, and they're stopping 

1213
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,520
the singularity that actually 
defines humanity, right? 

1214
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,360
So that's actually the crucial 
reversal because it's actually, 

1215
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,080
you know, the primitivism is 
essentially the new version of 

1216
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,720
communism. 
Because communism also appeal to

1217
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,120
kind of the natural small group 
sharing and so and so forth. 

1218
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,600
Primitivism has enough changes 
to its genetic code that 

1219
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,000
conservatives don't recognize it
as communism even though it's 

1220
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,240
the same thing. 
If communism was against 

1221
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,240
capitalism, primitivism is 
against technology. 

1222
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,640
OK, but of course techno 
capitalism is a very correlated 

1223
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,320
thing, right? 
So we have antibodies to 

1224
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,640
communism because that and 
that's against capitalism. 

1225
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,720
So instead of targeting 
capitalism dark, they'll target 

1226
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,800
technology. 
The left will be against the 

1227
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,000
capitalists and the right will 
be against the immigrants and 

1228
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,160
the center. 
A lot of well meaning Jonathan 

1229
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,200
hate type guys will be against 
the phones. 

1230
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,880
The problem is I understand why 
they're against the phones, but 

1231
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,760
basically moderated use of 
phones works in many other 

1232
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:28,640
cultures around the world. 
The problem with the West is 

1233
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,440
they don't have any moderation 
of use of phones for kids and so

1234
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,360
on and so forth, right? 
So what what happens is you have

1235
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,200
a collision of values that just 
don't have any sense to them. 

1236
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,320
What do you think is how this is
going to play out for 

1237
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,240
reproductive technologies? 
Like, do you feel like it's 

1238
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,920
going to fall along these 
similar lines of like, you know,

1239
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,760
primitivist versus? 
Absolutely, primitives versus 

1240
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,560
futuris will be the axis and 
going to be legal in some 

1241
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,840
important jurisdictions probably
certainly in tech 4 

1242
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,320
jurisdictions around well the 
same kinds of places probably 

1243
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,440
that are pro crypto and have 
digital nomad visas will 

1244
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,760
probably have you know legal 
embryo screening and so and so 

1245
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,360
forth. 
In the same kind of places that 

1246
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,080
are falling to primitivism of 
the blue or now the red 

1247
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,880
varieties will probably be 
against them or we don't know. 

1248
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,240
It's unpredictable. 
It can be very. 

1249
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:28,560
The future is fragmented and you
will have a lot of different 

1250
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,600
combinations of ideologies that 
make sense to those individual 

1251
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,760
people versus just a clean left 
and right. 

1252
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,760
And so at least some of those 
tribes, some of those 

1253
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,680
jurisdictions will be in favor 
of technology and those will 

1254
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,200
probably be some of the best 
places to be. 

1255
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,720
Usually they'll probably be the 
places that are prosperous 

1256
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:48,080
enough that and not just 
prosperous enough ascending, 

1257
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,040
ascending jurisdictions are also
ascending at the same time the 

1258
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,720
Internet is ascending. 
So they have a positive 

1259
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,440
association with the advance of 
technology. 

1260
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:02,200
The West minus tech is 
descending while tech is 

1261
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,080
ascending. 
So even if they're rich, they're

1262
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,360
descending world. 
And whereas for let's say India 

1263
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,840
or you know, the Philippines, 
even if it's poor, it's 

1264
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,720
ascending world, right? 
So that's why I like developed 

1265
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,840
and developing world is the 
wrong way of talking about it, 

1266
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,560
because that implies a static 
developed world and the 

1267
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,200
developing world's mean moving 
towards it. 

1268
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,240
Instead, it's the descending 
world and the ascending world. 

1269
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,280
Yeah, Yeah, I know. 
Yeah, that's a great point. 

1270
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:26,080
Yeah. 
So I guess the. 

1271
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:27,960
Ascending rule will be pro all 
of this. 

1272
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:29,400
Yeah. 
So do you want to kind of like 

1273
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,400
just summarize what you feel 
like sort of the like the moral 

1274
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,240
cases, sort of like what, what 
do you think? 

1275
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,320
Like how do you think people are
going to see this like today and

1276
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:41,960
maybe like how do you think 
that's going to that's going to 

1277
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:44,120
change over the next couple of 
years as it becomes more 

1278
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,640
popular? 
Yeah, to reduce it to known 

1279
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,360
moral principles in the West, 
For the left, it's just 

1280
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,720
reproductive choice, point 
blank. 

1281
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,960
For the right, it is small 
government. 

1282
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,760
And why interfere with, you 
know, somebody's personal 

1283
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,360
decisions? 
That's like that's a very short 

1284
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,040
secular political case for it, 
right. 

1285
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,800
Then you can go and you can 
quote, you make the religious 

1286
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,920
case in terms of doctrine and 
scriptures and and so on and so 

1287
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,040
forth. 
I don't think many, you know, it

1288
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:20,520
may turn out that there's some 
people who can quote 

1289
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:21,840
Christianity and so on against 
this. 

1290
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:23,800
I can certainly quote Hinduism 
for it. 

1291
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,040
I'm sure I could probably find 
someone who could quote Islam 

1292
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,640
for it because there's many 
people in the Middle East who 

1293
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,920
are very pro embryo screen, many
people in the Jewish community 

1294
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,080
who are pro embryo screen 
because of, you know, carrier 

1295
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,000
testing. 
So you could probably find 

1296
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,120
scriptural arguments I'm sure 
are usually for or against 

1297
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:39,920
something. 
But in general, I think maybe 

1298
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,400
the major faith groups could be 
for it. 

1299
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:52,840
Yeah, I, I think that that'd be 
my, that'd be my concise moral 

1300
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,000
argument for it. 
And then, you know, The thing is

1301
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:59,480
one of the issues is some of the
arguments put forward against 

1302
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:06,000
this are just based on genuinely
stupid reflexive, like an AI, 

1303
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,520
you know, like association like 
this, right? 

1304
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,760
And they just get mad for the 
sick of getting mad, you know, 

1305
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,480
and they they associate like a 
grain of sand. 

1306
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,280
Embryo is the same as a human is
the same as this is the same as 

1307
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,040
that. 
And these rhetorical equations 

1308
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:25,840
simply don't map to the reality.
And it's like, oh, isn't it nice

1309
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,160
to have some chance? 
The pitter patter of poems. 

1310
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:32,760
And I think there's a great 
tweet that you had, which is 

1311
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,720
like, this is like a guy talking
about how great it was to pick 

1312
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,520
berries that didn't like the 
rise of agriculture. 

1313
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:43,800
You know, it's just I The thing 
is that kind of argument is to 

1314
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:49,160
them very convincing because it 
just feels, you know, but feels 

1315
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:54,600
can't build feels can at best 
for them ban, but feels like 

1316
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,600
doesn't know an A from AC from 
AT from AG usually, right? 

1317
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,120
So they can try to ban in those 
jurisdictions and then they just

1318
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,120
won't be able to do it globally 
because you can show the poll 

1319
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,680
numbers and so on and so forth. 
So so long as the fields no. 

1320
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,400
Yeah, I think. 
The primitives he, he. 

1321
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,120
Made a great argument right 
around that, right? 

1322
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:18,440
Because it's sort of like, hey, 
we traded electricity for 

1323
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,120
candles, right? 
We traded cars for horses, 

1324
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:25,080
right? 
We traded, you know, organ 

1325
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:26,760
transplants for for for death, 
right? 

1326
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,480
We treated epidurals for having,
you know, a pregnancy. 

1327
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:30,840
But they. 
Soldiers for guns were 

1328
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,600
considered really cowardly 
relative to like soldiers with, 

1329
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,760
you know, Knights with, with 
swords who'd actually go up and 

1330
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:38,760
see you and chop you and so and 
so forth. 

1331
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,200
Like, you know, today we think 
of a soldier with a gun as 

1332
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,320
brave, but in the past they were
thought it was cowardly because 

1333
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,480
they wouldn't just go up to you 
and hit you with a sword, right.

1334
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,640
So moral intuitions do change 
over time based on the baseline 

1335
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,080
of what people think is, you 
know, the right thing to do, 

1336
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:54,480
right? 
Yeah, exactly. 

1337
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:57,720
I think basically pointing out 
like, hey, what is lost, you 

1338
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,680
know, from, from, you know, 
having, having, you know, babies

1339
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:03,880
through sex is like it's 
basically kind of like the most 

1340
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,400
standard cliche for anti 
progress, right? 

1341
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,520
It's like if you only look at 
what's lost and you don't look 

1342
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,760
at what's gained, I mean, you 
can make that argument for, you 

1343
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:15,120
know, why don't we, you know, 
hunt our our own food with the 

1344
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,000
bow and arrow and putting it at 
the grocery store. 

1345
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,080
It's like something's lost, 
sure, but what is gained, right 

1346
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:21,760
like. 
The macro argument I'd actually 

1347
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,720
say is not even really the moral
argument. 

1348
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,400
It's a correlational argument. 
If people feel that their 

1349
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,920
fortunes are just in general 
declining, which they do in the 

1350
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:34,480
West outside tech, they'll just 
be against any kind of change 

1351
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:36,080
whatsoever, especially from the 
tech guys. 

1352
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:38,960
If you're in tech and change is 
generally being good for you, 

1353
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,120
you'll generally be neutral or 
positive on change. 

1354
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,800
And if you're in the East or 
more generally the ascending 

1355
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,480
world, then you're also going to
be more positive on tech. 

1356
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,880
So we should look to tech and 
the ascending world to legalize 

1357
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,520
this stuff, and we should not 
look to the descending world to 

1358
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,040
support it. 
And we just need to divide 

1359
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,480
jurisdictions on that basis. 
And then they just kind of, you 

1360
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,360
know, like I'm not saying 
everybody in the descending 

1361
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,000
world will support it and 
everybody in the descending 

1362
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,520
world will oppose it. 
But that's the way that you, you

1363
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,520
should expect things to to play 
out, right? 

1364
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,280
That's actually the macro above,
even the moral intuition. 

1365
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:13,920
Yeah. 
So what do you think is is so 

1366
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,880
threatening to people about it? 
Like why is it like I've, I am 

1367
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,200
genuinely surprised by like the 
amount of activation. 

1368
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,479
So I don't know, I'm just kind 
of curious if you feel like you 

1369
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:23,840
have any? 
I mean, you know, well, first is

1370
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,600
people have been inculcated to 
they literally don't understand 

1371
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,359
what genes are. 
Like they got mad at the Sydney 

1372
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:31,840
Sweeney has great genes ad 
right. 

1373
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:33,600
Huge numbers of people got mad 
at this. 

1374
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,760
It's just a pun because they're 
like, I can't believe you're 

1375
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,560
saying genes could do something.
Oh my God, right. 

1376
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,319
So like it's, you know, in many 
ways American Society is like 

1377
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:52,600
twisted into knots over genetics
over all kinds of things. 

1378
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,600
You know, it's, it's this 
bizarre kind of thing where 

1379
01:08:54,600 --> 01:09:00,560
they're, I mean, look, there's a
lot of wars that kill a lot of 

1380
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,279
people and they're much less, 
you know, I don't know, I, I, I 

1381
01:09:05,279 --> 01:09:08,880
feel that the concern is one 
other thing about it is the 

1382
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,880
concern is like, it's like, it 
seems like extremely angry on 

1383
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,439
the day that it hits and then 
they just move on to the next 

1384
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,720
thing two or three days later, 
right? 

1385
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:24,520
It is very much a passing storm.
And if you just keep building, 

1386
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,279
they just don't have the 
attention span or anything like.

1387
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:28,960
That yeah, I mean, I think 
that's that's the thing that I 

1388
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:33,760
think is most, I don't know, I 
guess makes me feel the best 

1389
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:35,720
about it actually. 
It's like basically the the 

1390
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,040
benefit to each individual 
parent is so great that like 

1391
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,439
random, you know, negativity is 
is not enough to to convince 

1392
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:45,319
them, right. 
It's sort of like for each 

1393
01:09:45,319 --> 01:09:47,560
individual parent, it's the 
difference between is their 

1394
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,120
child, you know, going to be 
able to meet their developmental

1395
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,840
milestones, be able to walk, be 
able to talk or not. 

1396
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,240
And then for these other people 
who are kind of, you know, being

1397
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,520
negative, it's like, you know, 
they don't really have anything 

1398
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,520
at stake, right? 
So it is, it does feel like 

1399
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,720
that's like really unique part 
of, you know, you know, 

1400
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,040
healthcare decisions where 
people actually get to, you 

1401
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,080
know, vote with their feet and 
then decide, hey, like, this is 

1402
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,280
the thing that's going to make a
difference for me and for my 

1403
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,440
family. 
And, you know, they'll, they'll 

1404
01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:18,080
be willing to do that even if, 
you know, there's a lot of, you 

1405
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,360
know, loud voices on the other 
side. 

1406
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,080
Yes, ma'am, I agree. 
OK, cool. 

1407
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:26,920
All right, so let me wrapped 
there and any last words, any 

1408
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,320
other things you want the 
audience to come away with? 

1409
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,080
No. 
No, I think it's great. 

1410
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,560
I'll send you the the slides and
I'll even send you the slide 

1411
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,080
notes too. 
And then you if you want to like

1412
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,600
AI, re trigger them to we 
whatever content that you want, 

1413
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:38,120
that'll be great.