1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,560 Welcome to the Number State podcast. 2 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:06,720 And so, Arjun, you are 22. 19. You're 19. 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,240 OK, so 19 means you were born in 2006. 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,040 So you were born five years after 911, the financial crisis. 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:15,720 You were only like 2 years old, right? 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:22,480 So, you know, with video games, people spawn into the 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,440 battlefield in the middle of, you know, like a MOBA. 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,680 You know, everybody's shooting at each other, and there's like 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,760 this giant thing and someone spawns into the middle. 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,760 And so I think of you kind of people, the Gen. 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,000 Z types as spawning into the middle of this totally chaotic 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,160 situation. And I just want to tell you, it 13 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:41,200 wasn't like that in the 90s and the 2000s. 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,720 I don't know what your perception is. 15 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,600 Or maybe you perceive this chaos as normal. 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,800 I mean, I was born with a lot of things that I take for granted, 17 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,280 right? Which what is the US? 18 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,320 Where are you in India? So, you know, I've like for as 19 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,480 long as I remember, I know like having a computer smartphone 20 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,360 kind of after a while, so. What's your spiel? 21 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,560 Give your life story? You're AZ cash guy now but 22 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,120 what's your give your spiel? Sure. 23 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,800 So, you know, I, I was a pretty normal kid, I would say when I 24 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,120 was up to like. 13, you're still a kid, but go ahead. 25 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:12,000 Yes, fine, fine. Go. 26 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,800 Ahead until I'm on COVID when I was like, you know, doing 27 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,600 whatever teenagers would do, play Fortnite, you know, and 28 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,760 then COVID hit and then I just like. 29 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,480 Where were you then? In India. 30 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,600 In India, OK, how come you have an American accent? 31 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,640 You have a global accent. International idea just talking 32 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,080 to a lot of people. So I anyway, COVID hit and then 33 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,160 I just started reading a lot of books, like the beginning of 34 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,880 Infinity Naval's book naval, the Navalman Act. 35 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,840 And then I just started questioning a lot of things that 36 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,240 taken for granted and just like started questioning the meaning 37 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,000 of it. All right, like one of my in 38 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,440 school, like I don't want to be just growing up studying 39 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,560 engineering like everybody else. And you know, you know how the 40 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,200 Indian, there's nothing wrong. With studying engineering, but I 41 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,280 understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 42 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,280 But but you know if it's. Like if it's only a canalized 43 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,800 path, you want to have some options of course. 44 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Yeah. So anyway, I got completely 45 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,840 radicalized, I guess I'd say. And then you. 46 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,280 You got woke? No, exactly. 47 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,320 Yeah, Yeah, yeah. You, you got well, you got 48 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,440 enlightened. Enlightened. 49 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:18,080 Right. Go ahead. 50 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,160 Yep. And then I, you know, when I was 51 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,400 time to go back to school, because when I was online 52 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:25,880 school, I would just like mute the site and then, you know, 53 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,280 write from my blog, write on Twitter. 54 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,680 But then when I had to go back to school, I was like, this 55 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:30,920 sucks. I'm out of here, right? 56 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,520 So dropped out of high school, worked on air chat for a while 57 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:40,760 in the ball and we sunseted that, you know, I guess a couple 58 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,800 years ago now and then sort of got involved with Z Cash. 59 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,920 Great. OK, so let's talk Z cash, right, 60 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:53,640 So the Z cash never see. OK, So my view is there's many 61 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,520 problems that Z cash solves. Some of them are obviously 62 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,880 privacy, simplicity, quantum, you know, like a quantum 63 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,040 resistance, quantum resiliency, let's say, up to some, up to 64 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,040 some certain point, right? And and it has at least a road 65 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,200 map for resiliency, right? And like Sean Bow has a good 66 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,120 post on this. And then scalability with 67 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,040 Tachyon, right? And then it's also got some 68 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,680 degree of lindiness or what have you, given that it's been around 69 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,800 for 10 years, got a good security track record, it's got 70 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,000 a good exchange integration community, all that kind of 71 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,320 stuff. And Z Cash is interesting 72 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,520 because Solana guys like it, Vitalik likes it, I like it, 73 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,720 Novel likes it. And you know, it's it's 74 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,120 something where I think we can build a coalition around 75 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,760 privacy. And you've certainly experienced 76 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,680 this yourself. It's funny to say, like, how 77 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,800 does the youth think about privacy and so and so forth, 78 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,040 right? I'd love to hear your thoughts 79 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,840 and I'll give a thought. I, I would say I'm like I, I 80 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,600 don't hang out with a lot of people my age, right? 81 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,280 So I don't know the like, what like regular people my age 82 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,880 think, but for me, I think privacy is super important. 83 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,440 Like I don't docks my location anymore, you know, I used to 84 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,880 when I was a kid, didn't really realize. 85 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:10,400 The downside of it? Yeah. 86 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,800 But then now you know, you especially with AI being able to 87 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:20,320 recognize where you are exactly. And you need that on chain, I 88 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,320 think because you can't have freedom without privacy. 89 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,520 And if it's like every transaction you make is just 90 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,800 broadcasting your entire world to the public or you know where 91 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,440 you are, what you're doing, I don't think that's the world 92 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:33,760 that I want to live in. So. 93 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,400 Yeah. And I think a lot of people 94 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,040 don't fully understand that point. 95 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,000 If you're under surveillance, you're not sovereign. 96 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:48,360 And one way of putting it is if every move is being tracked, for 97 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,040 example, you don't have the advantage of surprise, you can 98 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,680 never launch something, you can never have private 99 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,240 deliberations, you don't have the room to make mistakes. 100 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,520 Anything you do can and will be used against you and so and so 101 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,520 forth, right? And you know, there's, I know 102 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,440 we're putting it as what does privacy mean? 103 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,120 Say arguably means local files and local data. 104 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,200 So that's also the same as what sovereignty means. 105 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,800 It means privacy is private keys is private property is not 106 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,560 online like almost decentralized and local and individual as 107 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,920 opposed to communal and shared and public and whatnot, right. 108 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,080 So that's the sense in which sovereignty is privacy, is 109 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,600 locality is security. It's creativity, right? 110 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:35,760 Like I'm not going to be creative. 111 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,080 I'm not going to be myself, my authentic self, if I'm always 112 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,160 being watched. And like I would think that 113 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,320 knowledge creation and wealth creation just comes to a stall 114 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,280 if all everything is so well all the time. 115 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,600 Yeah, it's funny. You know, like one thing I used 116 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,320 to say, sometimes people would tell me, oh, biology, you know, 117 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,520 China is going to just be the same as Japan and it's going to 118 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,280 like run into a ditch like Japan did. 119 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,360 But the way I point them to something is actually in the 120 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,120 early in 2017 actually, Sulzberger's paper and NYT 121 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,440 published something that said that China killed a bunch of 122 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,200 American spies in 2010. Japan could never do that. 123 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,360 So that's why China, that's another way of looking at it. 124 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,480 So, you know, I'd say very different national security 125 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:17,920 sense. But China's sovereign in the way 126 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,640 that Japan isn't because it could kill the spies, because it 127 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,120 stopped the spies. Obviously, I'm sure America's 128 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,560 killed Chinese spies as well, but Japan would never be able to 129 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:26,800 kill American spies, never, you know. 130 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,000 So Japan is under surveillance and wasn't sovereign, but China 131 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,120 wasn't under surveillance and was sovereign, right? 132 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:39,280 So the ability to actually be free of surveillance is actually 133 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,720 in a sense to be sovereign. And the alternative way of doing 134 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,880 it is to encrypt, not through violence like the Chinese way, 135 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,840 but through decentralization encryption, which is the 136 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:51,800 Internet. Yeah, he recently tweeted Z cash 137 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,840 must scale. Why is scaling Z cash a moral 138 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:57,320 imperative? Well, it's because, look, I love 139 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,960 Bitcoin because it's amazing. I don't never have a negative 140 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:01,200 word to say about Bitcoin or what. 141 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800 So she did and so on. But he developed it in 2009, 142 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,440 right? 2009 was many generations ago 143 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,240 technologically you'd make different trade-offs 144 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,200 potentially. Today, especially Quantum has 145 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,760 improved a lot. We know a lot more about 146 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,000 blockchain scalability. Obviously we know about smart 147 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,840 contracts, you know, obviously AI is out there, blah blah. 148 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,440 So the Z cash must scale just means right now how does Bitcoin 149 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,880 scale off chain and other chains that say off chain, which say 150 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,640 you load Bitcoin into Coinbase or Binance and then within the 151 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,680 internal Binance or Coinbase economy, you have a debit and a 152 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,160 credit and you can just send and receive at 0 fees. 153 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,000 And only when it's recorded out as a transfer out is there an on 154 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,720 chain transaction, right? So off chain is basically 155 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,360 database entries. And then other chains means you 156 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,280 swap Bitcoin into something else and then you send it on that 157 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,040 chain. Solana or Etherium or something 158 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,320 like that, or USDC on Etherium or Solana. 159 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,120 And that's fine. You know, that does work. 160 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,680 But many of my, you know, friends who are still, you know, 161 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,040 like Bitcoin maximalist or what have you, I'm sympathetic to 162 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,480 them, but they've basically been saying, oh, lightning, Lightning 163 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,960 is going to be there any day now for 10 years, literally 10 years 164 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,120 of lightning. And the thing about it is when 165 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,120 you press them, they're like, Oh well, Lightning, you know, 166 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,720 there's no public database of it because it's supposed to be 167 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,040 payment channels between two nodes. 168 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,400 And you go and you look into the details of it. 169 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,160 Basically the thing about Bitcoin is any address can send 170 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:36,360 any other address at any time, any amount without any set up at 171 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,240 basically, let's say standard fees, minimal fees, right, that 172 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,800 anybody can pay anybody anytime, anywhere. 173 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Any amount without any set up is a set of things that is all 174 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,360 broken with Lightning. Any node cannot pay any other 175 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,160 node with lightning unless there's a channel or a route 176 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,400 between them. They can't pay any amount 177 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,000 because it's constrained in a complex way by how much of the 178 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,560 deposits are there. They can't do it necessarily at 179 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:05,000 any time because you have to have like a channel open and 180 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,480 channel close. And then the amount of money is 181 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,600 like, it's like bound in a complicated way by like the 182 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,760 deposits on the channels. And then what do you get out of 183 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,360 all of this? What you get is something where 184 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,240 like, you know, maybe if one party, other party breaks a 185 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,440 payment channel, then you can you could get like the last 186 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,400 transaction out or something like that. 187 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,320 But the transactions are being recorded off chain, which is why 188 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,920 it's quote scalable to make lightning work and apps like 189 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,680 moon and so on and so forth that try to make like MUUN and wallet 190 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,280 of Satoshi. So they're fine like like these 191 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,280 guys, but basically they end up essentially setting up a hub and 192 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,160 spoke topology where it looks a lot like here's Coinbase, here's 193 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,920 Binance. And they've got a ring of 194 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,520 customers around them and they have a channel between them 195 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,440 where they can do quick Coinbase to Binance settlement. 196 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,360 So that if you send within Coinbase from their Coinbase 197 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,720 customer or within Coinbase to a Binance customer, maybe Coinbase 198 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,760 to Binance is it could be off chain or it could be at a very 199 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,400 quick Coinbase finance like, you know, daily or nightly or 200 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,480 whatever hourly settlement, however they decide to do it. 201 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:14,400 But if they have an agreement, they have a peering 202 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,720 relationship, they can move it fast. 203 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,920 This is very similar to how banks work, right? 204 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,360 Banks essentially mean within a bank it's fast. 205 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,760 It's just a debit or credit in their system. 206 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,920 And between banks, they use Fedwire or something, they do 207 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,720 settlement and they have a true up where it's like the net 208 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,000 credit, the net debit and they just true it up like this, 209 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,520 right? And so the hub and spoke 210 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,320 implementation of Lightning is really not in my view, doesn't 211 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,120 get you much or just loading in the Bitcoin and doing off chain 212 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,400 transactions and having a peering relationship between 213 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,920 moon and wallet of Satoshi and Noster and whatever, right, 214 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:48,960 Damus. And and that's all fine. 215 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,480 And and there's a bunch of people who will basically give 216 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,120 me some kind of argument like, no, it works, whatever. 217 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,880 And then whenever I poke on it, it's always some hub and spoke 218 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,880 thing under under the under the hood. 219 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,920 And it's not it's not like truly decentralized in the sense of 220 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,400 you. It's not like Bitcoin where you 221 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,240 can see it on chain. Anybody can pay anybody anytime, 222 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,120 any amount without any set up, blah, blah, Right, OK, So what 223 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,880 you really want is on chain scaling, right? 224 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,120 Just blast the transactions on chain. 225 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,000 What's funny is Etherium actually learned the same lesson 226 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,200 in a sense as Bitcoin. Why? 227 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,360 Like, you know, and to be clear again, I'm pro Bitcoin, pro 228 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,600 Etherium like Vitalic posted that L twos kind of didn't work. 229 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,080 And to be clear, a lot of the L twos are smart people. 230 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,320 I think they will adapt and pivot. 231 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,960 I've actually got a post coming out on this from L2 to app two, 232 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,760 you can turn those L twos into app chains and you have a 233 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,320 theorem for global state. You have your computer for local 234 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,560 state. And then if you have like a 235 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,760 decentralized notion like an Obsidian is the L twos for app 236 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,280 state that you're syncing across computers. 237 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240 Like, you know, like your username of Arjun dot ETH or 238 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,960 biologist dot ETH is global, but the state that you're moving if 239 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:01,520 you're doing a file share request or something that 240 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,080 doesn't need to be global state. It could be L2 state and then 241 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,040 you have local apps state fine. So leaving that though, The 242 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,560 thing is, L2's were fine as a hack. 243 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:12,600 They were more successful on a theorem than they were in in 244 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,400 Bitcoin. Like base and Polygon were 245 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,280 actually quite important, are important, but really the Solana 246 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,640 model of just blasting it, you know, events on chain worked, 247 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,640 right? Because it's easier conceptually 248 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:24,680 easier. You don't have to think about. 249 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:26,840 I mean, block chains are complicated enough without 250 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,480 having to worry about like, oh, where's my coin? 251 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,080 What chain is it on? It's easy to make mistakes on 252 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,800 that. It's easier for users to make 253 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,640 mistakes. You're forcing them to be aware 254 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,240 of a detail that they really shouldn't be aware of or have to 255 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,600 be aware of. And so Salon is model of just 256 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,800 blasted on chain and have beefier hardware worked. 257 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,120 And that was, it was maybe not obvious a few years ago, but 258 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,840 that model worked. And it became also very clear 259 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,000 that the value accrual is going to Solana and then an app on 260 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,800 Salon is doing something Solana isn't doing. 261 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,520 And and so that worked, right. So now we have basically 3 262 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,360 levels. So it's Bitcoin Etherium salon 263 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,320 in terms of scalability on chain, right. 264 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,760 And so now the question is, can we go further still the ZK, 265 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,960 obviously there's ZK roll ups, there's optimistic roll ups. 266 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,760 You know, ZK is not simply a a privacy technology. 267 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:19,920 It's also a compression technology. 268 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,440 It's a performance technology. And in fact, arguably, even 269 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,520 though Z cash came up with the concept of ZK, the utility of ZK 270 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,880 saw use more in scalability than it did privacy at first. 271 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,800 This is good because scalability was immediately commercially 272 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,480 important. You know that saying vitamin 273 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,280 versus painkiller? No, no, like you know, a 274 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,120 painkiller is it's maybe immediately. 275 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,920 Obviously, Yeah, yeah, OK. Yeah, you got you got a meat 276 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:46,520 problem and you want to take care of it, right. 277 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,000 And then vitamin is like possible upside, right? 278 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,720 And you can argue, but basically I know where you're putting it 279 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,080 is like a painkiller is a must and a vitamin is a nice to have, 280 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,720 right, Like a like a, like a, you know, a want as opposed to a 281 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,920 need, right. So making more money required 282 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,640 scalability. So I was a must, right? 283 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,000 And it seemed for a long time like people could do without 284 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,000 privacy or or rather it wasn't like it wasn't as important as 285 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,200 scalable, so people thought. But now we have all of these 286 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,240 attacks on people for like, you know, doxing locations, so and 287 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,360 so forth. Where if you're now, if you're 288 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,000 in Dubai or you're in a low crime jurisdiction, Singapore, 289 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,600 if you're in El Salvador perhaps and so on and so forth, you're 290 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,640 fine, right? Those are going to be 3 very 291 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,080 important places on the earth. In my view, Singapore, Dubai, El 292 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:40,200 Salvador are the new like Tokyo, London, New York, like even 293 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,080 Miami is maybe I think El Salvador has more upside than 294 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Miami because it's a start up seat. 295 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080 Like I actually like Francis Suarez a lot. 296 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,200 Miami and El Salvador will probably have an important 297 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,640 relationship. But El Salvador is like a full 298 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,040 sovereign, right? It can do a lot. 299 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,400 It did deal with Elon recently. It has tether there. 300 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,240 These are big moves, right? So Bekelly is like Bekelly 301 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:07,560 Kwanieu. Those get you the Americas, EMEA 302 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,520 and APAC, right? It gives you all three times 303 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,200 it's El Salvador, Dubai, Singapore and those if you're 304 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,240 doing, if you're saying of anything in crypto, I think you 305 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,240 or anything in tech crypto, those are going to be the three 306 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,360 nodes. One thing we need to do I should 307 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,560 post this afterwards like President Bikelli should set up 308 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,240 direct flights between Dubai, El Salvador and Singapore El 309 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,800 Salvador and build an International Airport. 310 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,640 We all have them. Already I don't think we have 311 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,080 them. Partly it's because South 312 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,440 America, Latin America has been sort of locked off from the rest 313 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,200 of the world, especially Asia. And lots of flights have to 314 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,960 route through America. And to route through America, if 315 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,480 you're not AUS citizen, you have to get a so-called, like I think 316 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,720 AC visa, transit visa. So many people who wanted to go 317 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,600 to Crushamento and Argentina and they're Asian, they don't have 318 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,160 AUS visa or something. You have to like go to the 319 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,000 embassy, the US embassy to get AC visa for just a like it's a 320 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,560 huge tax. You want to just fly from let's 321 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,800 say India to Argentina. You have to stop through the US 322 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,560 but to even stop through the US you need like AC Transit visa, 323 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,120 which means you need to go to the US embassy and apply for a 324 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 visa months in advance to jump on a flight. 325 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,040 So I mean, it takes away all spur of the moment. 326 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,960 It's like this enormous tax of time and energy. 327 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,040 You can get rejected for that visa. 328 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,880 It's often not awarded. So having someone like El 329 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,480 Salvador which can just route around that will be very 330 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,040 important. Like an enormous amount of 331 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,160 traffic will go there because Dubai and Singapore are these 332 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,120 huge, huge points anyway coming back. 333 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:35,440 So, so on chain, just being able to blast private transactions on 334 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,400 chain. Solana likes scalability, but Z 335 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,480 Cash is what I think Sean Boe may have with Tachyon. 336 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,280 That seems simple, scalable, easy to understand. 337 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,320 It's what a lot of people wanted Bitcoin to be, you know, So, 338 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,440 yeah. So that's how I think about 339 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,520 that. What? 340 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,520 What else will it take to be the official currency of the network 341 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,920 state? There's no official currency of 342 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,640 the network state. I think because there's, there's 343 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,520 going to be 1000 network sheets, right? 344 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,880 It's like there's going to be like 1000 cities, startup 345 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,200 societies, 1000 startup cities, thousand network states. 346 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,359 But I think there will be just like there'll be a salon in 347 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,800 network state, Ethereum network state, don't die network state, 348 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,920 coin based network state, Binance network state. 349 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,079 All these people have talked about Telegram network state, 350 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:26,520 etcetera, etcetera. There will be a AZ cash network 351 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,400 state. The only thing about Z cash 352 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,360 historically has been that the Zcash people were so into 353 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:33,720 privacy they never talked about it. 354 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,560 And also Zcash itself for a variety of reasons. 355 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,960 Just you know, most crypto things have a failure mode of 356 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,240 being way too commercial and like too much, get money now too 357 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,840 much. You know, like when AirDrop, 358 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,560 meme coin, blah blah type of stuff. 359 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,360 Once in a while you have a project which has the opposite 360 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,640 failure mode, or if not failure mode, because I don't think 361 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,160 Zcash has failed at all, but rather the reason that they 362 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,440 haven't like they're being sort of shadowed by other projects is 363 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,640 they were so academic, right? They were so academic like you 364 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,320 can overreact and be too non commercial also, right. 365 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,800 And there was, there was good in a lot of ways in all the 366 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,280 cryptography. They're very smart. 367 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,160 They were playing the long game, all that kind of stuff. 368 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,560 But you need the right equilibrium, right? 369 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,400 You don't want to be too phd.com. 370 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,400 You don't want to be too phdortwo.com. 371 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,680 You want to have the right synthesis. 372 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,640 You're going to change that. Yeah, I think we're changing 373 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,520 that, right? You guys have Gen. 374 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:30,880 Z cash? Yes, that's right. 375 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:31,800 Tell me about that. Yeah. 376 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,760 So I just thought it was a cool. Little it's fun word, yeah. 377 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,680 Yeah, it's good. Yeah. 378 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,840 Plan words. So it it's yeah. 379 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,800 I think the idea is like, you know, a lot of things start from 380 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,640 young people and then the older generations just like catch up. 381 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,080 Right. What are the five best Gen. 382 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,560 Z cash videos? Or what are the best ones? 383 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,120 Which ones are about? Well, do you remember? 384 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,080 We did one with you. That's true, you know. 385 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,680 We had the Z Cash Network state event here. 386 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,640 Yeah, Yeah. We did one with Hasib, did a 387 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,040 couple with Hasib. The first one with Z cash was a 388 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,080 $30.00. The second one was a $700.00. 389 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:03,960 Nice. That's good. 390 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,160 That's good, right. Didn't buy, so yeah. 391 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,760 Well, I mean, I love Hasib, obviously, because keep going. 392 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:10,640 I'm listening. Yeah, yeah. 393 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,840 There's a few more interesting ones, but yeah, I think we want 394 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,360 to ramp up starting more, OK. So what is What are the themes 395 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:21,640 of Gen. Z Cash the Feed? 396 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,600 Fun for sure. You know, we want to make it 397 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,720 fun. Make privacy fun, make it sexy, 398 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,320 make it cool. And I think, yeah, educating 399 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,360 like, you know, you don't want to be like, you just want the 400 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,040 user to know as much as they need to know. 401 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,040 Like that's why I love Zashi, right? 402 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,520 Because Zashi, there's all these different shielded pools with D 403 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,880 cash that, you know, if you really wanted to dig deep, you 404 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,400 could like learn all about them and the other apps kind of force 405 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,640 you to learn them. But Zashi, it's all just default 406 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,560 into the shielded orchard pool, right? 407 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,760 So as little information you need, but to use it properly, 408 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,560 obviously like, you know, you're not leaking information 409 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,600 anywhere. So I think, you know, educating 410 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,360 about that, that'd be great. But yeah, one more question I 411 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,760 had about, you know, you're talking about lightning in 412 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,480 Bitcoin. Do you see a world where you 413 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,520 know Z cash is sort of a compliment to Bitcoin where 414 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:13,880 it's. Actually, question, Yeah. 415 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,480 So The thing is, I mean, one thing to not underestimate is 416 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,880 like Bitcoin has like an insane brand, right? 417 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,320 It has been. I mean, one way of putting it is 418 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,320 there's a lot of people who are just now thinking about Bitcoin 419 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,680 or whatever, and what they'll say is something like, Arjun, 420 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:33,760 what kind of Bitcoin should I buy, right? 421 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,360 Yeah, I'm probably, you heard something like that, right? 422 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,040 So that is, I know where you're putting it As, for example, how 423 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,400 many drone manufacturers can you need. 424 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,520 I know mock Industries, which is a small one, yeah. 425 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,760 But what are the big ones? Most people can name DJI, maybe 426 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,040 they can name Andrew, right? So you have to be really into it 427 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,600 to be able to name like small ones. 428 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:55,920 That's just probably a friend of yours. 429 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,840 Exactly. So, but like to be able to go 430 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,240 down the list of all the very strong manufacturers. 431 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,720 It's like DJI is like Bitcoin. Maybe Andrew is like Ethereum. 432 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,880 It's a military drone, very different, but it's a drone 433 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,960 manufacturer. And then like to know more than 434 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,800 that, you really have to be in the space, right? 435 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,680 So if you think about it that way, right, like again, like 436 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,320 most people, they name an AI, they'll name ChatGPT, right? 437 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,400 And to be in the space to know Gemini and Claude and you have 438 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,880 to be really in the space to know like, I don't know, sea 439 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,960 dance that just came out, this open model or the Chinese cling 440 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,400 and whatever, you know, Quan blah, blah, DeepSeek. 441 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,560 And so you have to that's a useful way of modeling. 442 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,600 Another example is like how many Chinese politicians do you know 443 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,400 exactly, right? Can you name Lee Chang and all 444 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,640 the other people in the Britain? Most people can't, right? 445 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,920 So that's a good way of thinking about how people from the 446 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,800 outside think about crypto. They just know Bitcoin. 447 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,280 They just know like the one name in crypto is Bitcoin, right? 448 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,800 That's so like insane, like the there's a power law and brand, 449 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,120 right? So don't underestimate that. 450 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,160 That's like a huge, huge, huge, huge thing. 451 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,440 So because of that number one, and Bitcoin is just insane 452 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,040 ubiquity and you know, like all the kind of stuff I think 453 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,960 Bitcoin will be around and do well for a long time. 454 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:13,000 Also, there's an aspect to being public on chain, like 455 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,120 transparency and privacy are actually both useful things, 456 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,880 right? And for, but Kelly to be able to 457 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,760 prove that he has this amount of Bitcoin reserves is actually 458 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,520 useful for him at times, right? If he can secure the private 459 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,880 keys, there's a sense in which Bitcoin literally does become 460 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,000 digital gold, right? It's something where if you, 461 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,080 you, you used to actually show you'd have proven reserves, you 462 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,000 know, and then you need proof of reserves and liabilities in 463 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,520 general, because you know, you know, it's not just that you 464 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,800 have 100,000 Bitcoin or 10,000 Bitcoin, but rather all the 465 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,280 claims in them add up to this, right? 466 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,840 That's like another level of it. But at least proof of reserve 467 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,800 shows you, you have something. And so there's a sense in which 468 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,760 it's possible because transparency and privacy are 469 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,920 both useful features. It's kind of like immutability 470 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,760 and programmability are both useful features. 471 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,240 So Bitcoin is immutable and Etherium and Solana are 472 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,280 programmable mutability, like in the sense of if you Google 473 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,040 mutable state, that's like a core concept in programming. 474 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,280 That's like the thing that Bitcoin doesn't want to do that 475 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,400 Etherium and Solana must do. But it's like, these are both 476 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,600 valuable things, immutability and programmability, but you 477 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:19,800 can't have them in the same package. 478 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,480 It's like, you know, I want to drink water, I want to warm 479 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:23,960 fire. I don't want fire plus water 480 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,320 because they and I leave each other, right? 481 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,520 So you need to have them separate as things, right? 482 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,200 So it's possible that Bitcoin, just like Bitcoin and Etherium 483 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,160 coexist because Bitcoin is immutable and Etherium is 484 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,040 programmable. Bitcoin and Zcash coexist 485 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,640 because Bitcoin is transparent and Zcash is private. 486 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,000 And you may want to have proof of reserves, right? 487 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,680 Zcash has T addresses. It does have T addresses, that's 488 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,320 true. That's true, You can do that. 489 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:50,600 But so there's something also where the total sum of Z cash 490 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,040 can't be proven as easily as the total sum of Bitcoin, right? 491 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,120 Maybe there'll be some cryptographic technique that 492 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,080 does that, which is probably possible, but it's not quite as 493 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,480 simple as with Bitcoin where you just download blockchain, run a 494 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,760 verifier, sum all the chain tips and you get this. 495 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,320 How many Bitcoin there are, right? 496 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,080 That was a troll that people used to run on Ethereum. 497 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,120 They'd say how many ETH are there, right? 498 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,240 And they could show a strip that just simple just showed how many 499 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,880 BTC there were. You can't say how many eat there 500 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,920 are, right. You can say how many transparent 501 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,880 sect there are, and certainly that's an upper bound. 502 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,680 Like you can also say how many Shields there are. 503 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:28,800 You can see how many Shields there are schools. 504 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,520 That's true, that's true, but it's a little bit less anyway 505 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,840 people can make these arguments and so it's it's like a little 506 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,320 bit less trackable yeah than than Bitcoin is and sometimes 507 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,840 it's a feature. So anyway, that's those are the, 508 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,960 the benefits of an older technology are ubiquity, brand 509 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:53,160 and perhaps transparency. And we wouldn't, we shouldn't 510 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,360 underestimate that. I mean, one thing that's 511 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,600 interesting is, you know, when Facebook was in its early days, 512 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,320 Twitter was and Twitter was in its early days. 513 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,080 People said, oh, Twitter is just Facebook's status updates, 514 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,120 right? Because Facebook there was a 515 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,760 there's a time when it said like Arjun is and then you can type 516 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:09,920 in a box. I don't know if you remember 517 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,280 that it actually is before your time. 518 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,560 You it was like 5 years before you're born or something like 3 519 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,320 years. But 2004 to 2007 you had that 520 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,520 like biology is and you type something in and then eventually 521 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,440 the biology is went away. You just type something in. 522 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,440 Those tests would be similar to a tweet, but it'd be like 523 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,000 biology is. It was, it was an update of AOL 524 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,640 Instant Messenger. AOL Instant Messenger, you'd say 525 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,880 John is asleep and that was like your away message or John is at 526 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,520 the office. So you tell people where you 527 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,040 are, almost like an answering machine message. 528 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,040 So answering these machine message became an ICQ or AOL 529 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,400 Instant Messenger away message became a Facebook status update, 530 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,480 became a Twitter tweet. And so that's it. 531 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,520 That's the evolution of it, right? 532 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:49,920 So the answering machine became the tweet. 533 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,840 That's not the only lineage, but part of it. 534 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,240 Point is people thought Facebook can do all these things. 535 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,240 Twitter can do only one thing. Therefore, Facebook will just 536 00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,960 crush Twitter. It turned out that the 537 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:04,120 simplicity of Twitter meant to just build a community around 538 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:05,800 it, right? That's the other thing that 539 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,680 Bitcoin has just says gigantic community, right? 540 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,360 Hundreds of millions of people, right, are part of Bitcoin. 541 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,520 And like you could say, for example, that I don't know 542 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,120 what's a good version of this. Like, I don't know, maybe El 543 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,200 Salvador is a better Mexico, but how many people are going to 544 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,760 move from Mexico to El Salvador? Community has a stickiness. 545 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,400 Also, of course, you know, that's not exactly right. 546 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,840 You know what I'm saying right? So yeah, I I, I don't know what 547 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,880 the future holds, but I'm pro Bitcoin, pro Ethereum, pro salon 548 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,640 and pro Z cash because it's we're still in this very non 0 549 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,280 sum mode for a long time. All this all the intra coin 550 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,200 fights. I think there's a healthy 551 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,400 competition and so on. But but I think this could be Z 552 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,320 cash at the moment. Let's see. 553 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,600 Awesome. Cool, thanks. 554 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,000 Thank you. Sir. 555 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,960 Great. Thank you, Sir.