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Hey, Andrew, welcome to the 
Never State podcast. 

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What I, you know, love about 
your show. 

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I mean, you and I actually have 
fairly similar backgrounds in 

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some ways where we're both, you 
know, Stan, at least I was at 

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Stanford for almost 10 years, 
right? 

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From 97 to 2007, actually more 
than 10 years as first 

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undergrad, then PhD, then, you 
know, basically postdoctoral 

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faculty. 
And I taught CS and stats and 

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genomics at Stanford. 
And then I left and found a 

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genomics company and sold that, 
gone to Tech. 

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And then you were a faculty 
member and you also, in a sense,

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in a different way, you became a
creator, right? 

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And you're still a faculty 
member there. 

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Am I wrong or? 
Not Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
Still tenured. 

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I got a meeting with my Dean in 
about a week and 1/2 for lunch. 

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It's a friendly conversation. 
Not OK, great. 

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Not an exit conversation. 
Yeah. 

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I taught up until very recently.
I ran a fairly big lab and then 

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taper that off during the 
pandemic. 

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My last postdoc is now a faculty
member. 

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So I I, you know, moved all my 
students and postdocs on to 

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their next steps. 
But yeah, I'm, I'm still a 

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tenure member of neurobiology 
and ophthalmology, have a split 

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appointment. 
And I was born at Stanford 

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Hospital. 
I did my oh, is that right 

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training at Stanford? 
Yeah. 

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I worked in the in the sleep lab
for a summer during university. 

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And so, you know, I, it's and 
Stanford's my backyard. 

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I grew up in South Palo Alto, 
so. 

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OK, well, I think, you know, 
it's funny because we're both, 

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you know, that soil is a very, 
it's very interesting things, a 

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bridge between, in my view, the 
old world and the new, because 

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in different ways, we sort of 
made our careers on the Internet

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from there. 
And obviously it's a weird thing

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because on the one hand, 
obviously Stanford is known for 

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having a lot of people who get 
into tech or in your case, get 

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into becoming creators out of 
there. 

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On the other hand, the 
university isn't really as 

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friendly towards that as people 
might think from the outside. 

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Like in the sense of when, when 
I was doing it in the 2000s, it 

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was not. 
And now it's being changed. 

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Some entrepreneurship become 
more common in the 20 tens and 

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so on. 
But it's like VC was sort of 

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over the hedgerows. 
It was not something that was 

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like on campus in that way. 
And moreover, you know, those 

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posters that say like bench to 
bedside that they would have 

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translational medicine. 
You know, when you actually did 

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go, when I did go and start a 
genomics company, suddenly you 

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went from being an infant that 
everybody kind of liked to then,

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oh, you're doing something for 
profit that's bad. 

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And then they didn't want to 
talk to you until you became 

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really, really big because it'd 
be a conflict of interest in 

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academia to talk to a for profit
company. 

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There's like a weird thing there
where there's like an air gap 

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between, you know, Stanford and 
then the actual tech stuff or 

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creator stuff that comes out of 
it. 

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I don't know if you experienced 
that at all or you saw that. 

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Well, my experience has been 
quite different and I'm not 

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saying this to you. 
Sure. 

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Yeah. 
So I agree that once one makes 

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it big, the the tone always 
shifts. 

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So I mean this is kind of true 
across the board. 

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I heard a joke some time ago 
that I think is quite apartment 

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about Stanford, which is there 
only two kinds of Stanford 

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faculty, Stanford faculty with 
companies and Stanford faculty 

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with successful companies. 
That's funny. 

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Now it is like, you know, former
chair of genetics Mike Snyder on

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our podcast. 
Mike, he's great. 

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He's very pragmatic, yeah. 
Yeah, he's got, I think, 11 or 

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more companies. 
You know, I think the backbone 

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of Stanford is largely within 
the engineering school. 

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I mean, of course they have 
humanities and everything else. 

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So the engineering of devices at
Stanford is such a major theme, 

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right? 
And someone who's trained both 

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at Stanford and at Harvard 
Medical School explained to me 

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that, you know, that the lineage
was such that Harvard tended to 

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be more grounded in development 
of pharmaceuticals and Stanford 

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really engineering the Gamma 
Knife and and on and on. 

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So I always experienced Stanford
as a place where academia and an

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industry were somewhat merged. 
But I came into it a bit later, 

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right? 
I started my postdoc in 2005. 

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At that time people were 
founding companies based out of 

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discoveries and Biosciences. 
My downstairs neighbor was then 

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and is still now Roger Kornberg,
whose father Noble Prize for 

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RNA. 
And then Arthur, excuse me, 

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Robert got the structure of RNA 
and he has a company. 

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Actually he's on the OR was on 
the Advisory Board. 

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I think he is still of true 
Nyogen. 

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So the whole NRNMNNAD thing, you
know, there is Roger, Nobel 

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Prize winner at Stanford, you 
know, holding a bottle of NR. 

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Like I take NR, you know, and I 
thought to myself that was 

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somewhere around 2016 and I 
thought things are changing, 

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right? 
Yes, yeah. 

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So I think things have changed 
somewhat in the. 

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I mean, I could talk about my 
own experience with the podcast.

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I think people didn't really 
expect that from me. 

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And I just I did it during the 
pandemic, start going on podcast

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and launched the podcast in 
2021. 

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And I think people sort of stood
back and were like, OK, what's 

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going to happen here Initially? 
I got a lot of great, saw you on

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Rogan. 
Awesome. 

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And then from faculty, and then 
as Rogan became a bit more 

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controversial in light of the 
vaccine mandates, it was a 

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little bit more like, oh, but 
then colleagues like Anna Lemke,

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who focuses on addiction and 
dopamine went on Rogan. 

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Sapolsky's been on there. 
And so podcast became really one

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of the major thrusts within the 
media landscape, if not the 

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major thrust in the media 
landscape. 

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And then everyone seemed to just
kind of relax around things. 

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So I think it's more friendly 
now, I think, you know, there 

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are these stains, right? 
There's the Theranos stain. 

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There's some other stains we 
could talk about. 

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But then there are all these 
successes. 

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Yeah. 
Of, you know, like Lubert 

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Stryer, who recently passed 
away, was in my department, 

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founded AFFA Matrix right there 
and then, you know, but he had 

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closed his lab. 
So I'll tell you, you know, to 

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be quite direct about this. 
I mean, money is a big part of 

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it, right? 
I mean, if Stanford has a 

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partial investment role or, or 
equity role, if some of these 

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people, including myself, I do 
philanthropy directly through 

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pay for our podcast is free, but
through a, a premium channel of 

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our podcast, we have donor 
matches, we do philanthropy. 

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So we support labs at Stanford 
and elsewhere. 

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And, you know, as you know, I 
mean, you know, money taking 

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money and if money is coming in,
you know, the tone is different.

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But that came after the podcast 
succeeded. 

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So I would say for me the 
experience has been very 

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positive. 
That's cool. 

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I'm glad it is. 
I think one thing that's 

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interesting is I think you did 
this post tenure and so that 

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meant that you didn't have to be
scored against the, you know, is

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this in a peer reviewed 
publication? 

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And so and so clearly you're 
having a lot of impact on global

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health, I think in a positive 
way by telling people about 

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these publications and so on. 
No, I think really I, you know, 

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like there's a lot of people, 
you know, I'm a I'm a big human 

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defender. 
I mean, you have a lot of fans 

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obviously, right. 
But popularizing the work and 

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getting it out there and turning
into actionable things like look

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at the sun before looking at 
your phone, like all these 

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little hacks and heuristics that
distill like a big complicated 

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thing into memorable things is 
really, really valuable. 

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And so, you know, there's a few 
things I want to talk to you 

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about. 
You actually got in touch with 

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me a few years ago when I'd been
on the Lex podcast and I talked 

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about the FDA. 
And I think one thing that you 

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may remember about this is I 
think I was able to give the 

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Steel Man case for why the FDA 
exists and then critique it from

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the lens of FDA 2.0, right? 
In the sense of you do want a 

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regulated marketplace, in the 
sense of bands of bad actors and

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star reviews. 
Like, you know, you don't want 

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to have just like Amazon, for 
example, has star reviews of 

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books and it has bands of, you 
know, scammers or you know, the 

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App Store has star reviews and 
it has bands of malware in the 

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same way you want from a drug 
marketplace reviews and bands of

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bad actors. 
But the FTA doesn't need to be 

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the only one doing those 
reviews. 

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It could be a competitive 
marketplace. 

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It could be multiple 
jurisdictions, for example, the 

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EU and India and China and you 
know, or within the US, Texas 

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and California and so on, all 
competing with each other. 

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And then if you get a thumbs up 
from any of them, you actually 

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have competition between 
reviewers in the same way that 

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you don't have like a single 
movie reviewer for everything, 

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right? 
You don't have a single critic, 

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right? 
So I'd love your thoughts on 

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that because I mean, maybe we 
can go piece by piece through 

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the US medical system and why 
are a lot of the Huberman 

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studies? 
Why, why aren't we all, you 

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know, super? 
I mean, we're starting to get 

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there maybe with the zembic and 
so and so why aren't we all 

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super jacked and living forever?
I think a big part of it is the 

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US medical system, insurance 
system, reimbursement system, 

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regulatory system, holding back 
the innovations that people are 

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discovering. 
But I'd like to hear your 

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thoughts if we can go from 
there. 

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Yeah, sure. 
Well, just to close the Hatch on

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an on something you mentioned, 
you said thanks for being a 

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Huberman lab defender. 
Sure. 

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I think, you know, there are 
various critiques as is always 

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the case when you're public 
facing. 

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But you know, I would say that 
the response in the academic 

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community and in the medical 
community just based on emails 

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and conversations is sort of 
divided into thirds. 

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I think about 1/3 understand 
what I'm trying to do, which is 

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trying to give people actionable
advice that can make them 

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healthier and they support that.
Even though they understand that

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there's going to be some 
dilution of the specifics or 

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that I'm going to be pooling 
things. 

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And and you know, make an effort
to be clear about what the 

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sources of information are. 
That the middle third are sort 

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of silent, sort of agnostic 
about it. 

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And then the remaining third 
either are, I would say, 

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probably divided such that 
they're either critical because 

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they don't like the specific 
information. 

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They sort of feel like it's not 
cast the way they would cast it,

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or in many cases, I have to be 
honest. 

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They're envious. 
They're not happy because 

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someone else is talking about 
their work. 

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Frank Yeah, exactly. 
And my my point is always I'd 

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love to invite you on the 
podcast. 

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I had a cannabis episode. 
He was criticized. 

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I invited the guy on so just to 
but it's AI think a good segue 

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to the next piece, which is, you
know, what do we consider 

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actionable knowledge? 
And that's really the one of the

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major important roles of the 
FDA, of course. 

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And I think this is becoming 
more salient in the context of 

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things like peptides and 
psychedelics, right? 

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These are the kind of the high 
salience issues right now. 

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Here's my feeling, the reason 
that we don't get more direct 

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recommendations about behavioral
changes to support one's health 

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is because there really just 
isn't an organized voice for 

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that. 
I mean, one of my hopes was that

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Maha was going to do that. 
But you know, if you really look

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at what they did and you know, 
I'm trying to get in their ear 

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about this, that they're like, 
oh, 100 push ups, 100 pull ups 

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or something, which is kind of 
an unreasonable goal for in one 

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workout, which is kind of an 
unreasonable or maybe 100. 

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Pull ups a lot. 
That's a lot of pull ups. 

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I mean, it's an unreasonable 
kind of thing for most people. 

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And and yet, you know, the New 
York Times health section will 

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run things like, you know, 5 in 
apartment squat workouts you can

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do. 
None of that stuff works. 

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No, none of that stuff changes 
behavior. 

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I think for me, what seems to be
the case is that what changes 

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people's behavior is when they 
can experience a positive shift 

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the first time and every time, 
which is why we push morning 

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sunlight. 
Why we been encouraging 

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resistance training, et cetera. 
I think the big chasm in 

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healthcare and here we could 
lump kind of traditional science

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and medical community and FDA 
and NIH, right? 

234
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I have many friends in there and
to some extent I still consider 

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myself part of that community. 
And then we think about the the 

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podcast sphere, everything 
ranging from me to Brian Johnson

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to fitness channels and the 
running community. 

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Is that the general population 
feels like they don't know where

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to start. 
And during the pandemic and 

240
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because of the the debate about 
vaccine mandates, etcetera, and 

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lockdowns and masks, what ended 
up happening was we have no 

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00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,960
authoritative figure or panel. 
I am a big believer that we 

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don't want individuals. 
We saw this during the pandemic,

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one guy telling people what to 
do, updating the information. 

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Now people hate them or they 
love them, whatever. 

246
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You know. 
There's Fouchy, obviously, 

247
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:28,880
right? 
But what I always thought, you 

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know, we need panels, we need 
panels of people that are that 

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we know based on the data that 
people will change their 

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behavior, listen to their doctor
if their doctor looks like them,

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talks like them. 
There's so much data on that. 

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So we need, we need some 
authoritative body. 

253
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And I think that Maha's interest
in reducing food dyes and then 

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people doing push ups and pull 
ups, it's sort of like a general

255
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,280
step in the right direction, but
it's pretty micro. 

256
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,320
And I think it's frankly, I 
think it's, it's off center from

257
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where it needs to be. 
So what you know, so, so that's 

258
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a big, a big part of it. 
I think also in the United 

259
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States, my dad's Argentine, OK, 
He. 

260
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:10,960
Oh, interesting. 
OK, Yeah, yeah, he's so. 

261
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,320
That's why you get Bitcoin. 
Yeah, exactly. 

262
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,080
That's why I drink and that's 
why I drink matte in the 

263
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:15,480
morning. 
So. 

264
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,400
OK, great. 
You know, since I was a kid. 

265
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,840
So my dad's Argentine. 
He's a scientist. 

266
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,600
He a theoretical physicist. 
He actually came on the podcast,

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00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,760
you know, and from the time I 
was very little, he said, you 

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00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,560
know, the reason people are 
overweight is they eat too much.

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And then, you know, like we 
debated this for a very long 

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00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,840
time. 
And, and in Europe and in 

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00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,480
Argentina and elsewhere, I think
there's this idea that if you 

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00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,720
want to be healthier, you walk 
more, you move more, you eat 

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00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,880
less, done, end of story. 
You want to sleep better, there 

274
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,960
are things you can do there, 
too. 

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I think that in the United 
States, two things are very 

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00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,160
true. 
First of all, this the United 

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States has never been a country 
where healthy cuisine has been 

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celebrated. 
Think about the American 

279
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,120
cuisine. 
It's like hamburgers, hot dogs, 

280
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,200
French fries, milkshakes, apple 
pie. 

281
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,920
We've never really celebrated 
healthy eating. 

282
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,560
It was always abundant. 
Abundance and taste. 

283
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,080
Mostly abundance. 
Calories, calories per dollar. 

284
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,520
You know that before the Super 
size? 

285
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,760
Candy bars. 
Yeah, like you think about 4th 

286
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,520
of July where, you know, OK, now
it's great to celebrate things, 

287
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,520
but, you know, you spend a 
little bit of time in Europe and

288
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,720
you realize people walk a lot 
more and the traditional food, 

289
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,920
including sweets, but desserts 
are eaten as desserts. 

290
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:34,800
But the traditional food is a 
focus on quality, on the source,

291
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,680
on the tradition. 
None of that exists in the 

292
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,720
United States. 
I mean, there's the hunting 

293
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,600
community that think about where
they get their meat. 

294
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,480
And I think that's great. 
I'm a big supporter of that. 

295
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,880
But it's never been the case 
that Americans eat well ever. 

296
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,400
And it's always been the case 
that Americans like drugs. 

297
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,000
They like drugs. 
I mean, I've studied the weight 

298
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,760
loss phenomenon and, and you 
know, amphetamine was a big 

299
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,240
thing. 
Now it's sort of coming back, 

300
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,480
believe it or not, Ozempic. 
Ozempic proved that people are 

301
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,240
eating too much relative to 
their to their metabolic needs. 

302
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,440
So the simple statement is 
Americans like drugs and they 

303
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,640
don't like to do physical, don't
like to eat nutritious food and 

304
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,680
they generally don't like to do 
physical labor. 

305
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,440
Except, and this is a key 
caveat, is that Americans love 

306
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,640
to work hard. 
We're a heart, you know, 

307
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,840
traditionally been a hard 
working community of people, but

308
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,520
within the context of getting a 
paycheck for our work as opposed

309
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,320
to doing things to better our 
bodies, right? 

310
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,000
We're unique in that way. 
And I hear now that Wellness is 

311
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,200
becoming really big in China, 
you know, that notion of morning

312
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,280
exercise and sunlight. 
I mean, they're picking up on a 

313
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,000
lot of protocols that I and 
others have have promoted. 

314
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,520
But being really healthy has 
never really been the American 

315
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,400
thing. 
But we love celebrating sports 

316
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,640
stars. 
I mean, we love our basketball 

317
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,560
stars, our football stars, 
baseball. 

318
00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,720
It's not that we don't celebrate
sport. 

319
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,520
We celebrate sport. 
And we like to eat really 

320
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,400
unhealthy food while we watch 
other people. 

321
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,280
Exert. 
It's a culture of extremes, 

322
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:06,880
right? 
Yeah. 

323
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,440
So extremely unhealthy or 
extremely hardworking and 

324
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,640
unhealthy from that. 
Right And I'm trying to change 

325
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,680
that. 
I'm I'm trying to change that 

326
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,320
and I'm trying to demystify it. 
I'm trying to anchor in science 

327
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,400
where possible. 
I'm trying to give people tools 

328
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,320
that work very quickly so they 
can get, you know, hooked by 

329
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,760
taking good care of themselves 
and feel the benefits of that. 

330
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,880
I'm trying to make most of what 
I promote behavioral tools for 

331
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,000
change. 
I do strongly believe in the 

332
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,760
role of nutrition, which I put 
under behaviors but also 

333
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,720
honestly, supplements and 
peptides. 

334
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,480
What are the human? 
Invaluable. 

335
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,280
What are the top? 
What are the top five you know? 

336
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:47,960
Because off the top of your 
head, what do you think are the 

337
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,360
most important things people 
should do? 

338
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,000
Behavioral Tools. 
Just, I don't know, like the 

339
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,960
overall like of all your pods or
the top five things people 

340
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,280
should do. 
Yeah, I think there's only one 

341
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,000
thing that if people knew they'd
be 10 times healthier, and 

342
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,079
that's to understand that you 
want your cortisol high within 

343
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,520
the first hours after waking. 
I don't care when you wake up, 

344
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,800
but you want your cortisol high 
in the first hours after waking 

345
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,599
and you want your cortisol low 
in the evening. 

346
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,640
This brings together all of 
Brian's messaging, Matt Walker's

347
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,200
messaging, my messaging. 
Here's the deal. 

348
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,400
You wake up in the morning 
because of an inflection in 

349
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,079
cortisol that occurs during 
sleep. 

350
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,359
Eventually, it's a threshold. 
You wake up in the first two 

351
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,839
hours, but especially the first 
hour after waking. 

352
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,240
There's a whole set of 
mechanisms that are engaged that

353
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,560
allow you to boost that cortisol
even higher. 

354
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,880
We hear about cortisol as a 
stress hormone. 

355
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,280
It's not a stress hormone, 
cortisol, it's designed to 

356
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,920
deploy energy to your brain and 
body so that you can respond to 

357
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,040
stressors and life, work, focus,
etcetera. 

358
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,040
It sets in motion a cascade of 
all the things you want, 

359
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:49,920
dopamine, epinephrine, 
norepinephrine, the so-called 

360
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,840
catecholamines. 
It sets a wavefront for the rest

361
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,280
of the day. 
And but here's the really 

362
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,120
important thing, the higher that
morning cortisol peak, the more 

363
00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:59,800
energy and focus and your 
ability to learn things and do 

364
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,680
things you have during the day 
and the lower your cortisol will

365
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,640
be at night because the cortisol
is on a what's called negative 

366
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,600
feedback loop where when its 
levels get too high, it starts 

367
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,640
self regulating and bringing its
levels back down. 

368
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,120
So get your cortisol high in the
morning. 

369
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:15,920
I'll list off some things. 
Viewing bright light will 

370
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,200
amplify your morning cortisol, 
especially in the first hour 

371
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,360
after waking. 
Can be a 10,000 lux artificial 

372
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,360
light or can be sunlight, cloudy
days. 

373
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,280
It works just fine. 
People would say there's no 

374
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,720
sunlight where I live. 
Look, it's so much brighter at 

375
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,840
8:00 AM on a cloudy day, even in
Scandinavia in winter than it 

376
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,520
was at midnight the night 
before. 

377
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,400
So photons are coming through 
10,000 lux. 

378
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,800
Artificial light can help bright
light exercise even if you don't

379
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,840
feel like it. 
We'll start to set a rhythm 

380
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,000
where your morning cortisol is 
in kind of anticipatory and is 

381
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,800
even higher anticipating that 
exercise. 

382
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,400
Hydration, believe it or not, 
things like caffeine and cold 

383
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,840
exposure surprisingly don't 
increase cortisol. 

384
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,280
They just prolong that peak a 
little bit. 

385
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,960
OK. 
The other thing is if you really

386
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,640
want to boost your morning 
cortisol and you don't have a 

387
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,080
medical condition that prevents 
this, believe it or not, 

388
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,000
licorice root, which contains 
something called glycerizing, is

389
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,280
a very potent tool for 
increasing morning cortisol. 

390
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,240
In fact, people that are kind of
finding that caffeine doesn't do

391
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,360
it for them anymore, you take, 
you need to get licorice root 

392
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,120
capsules that contain 
glycerizin. 

393
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,040
Often times they'll remove it 
because it can increase 

394
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,800
cortisol. 
And you take that with your 

395
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,840
morning coffee and you'll notice
you have a lot more energy 

396
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,720
through the morning. 
It's it's a huge effect, so much

397
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,040
so that it's contraindicated 
with a lot of prescription drugs

398
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,080
that are stimulants. 
So just. 

399
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,680
Keep it in mind on the topic of 
energy. 

400
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,200
Yeah. 
I think about that more as I get

401
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:48,120
older and quantifying that I 
think is important because, you 

402
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,960
know, for example, we can 
quantify weight, we can quantify

403
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,040
height. 
You can quantify many other 

404
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,880
biochemical covariates like, you
know, as you know, cortisol 

405
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,080
levels, testosterone levels, 
other kinds of things, right? 

406
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:08,680
But energy level is often, you 
know, lots of people have high 

407
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,440
that we know have high 
intelligence, but they have low 

408
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,360
or variable energy, famously Jeb
Bush, low energy, you know, 

409
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:21,320
Trump, you know, but but a lot 
of in tech in particular, one of

410
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,520
the things that distinguishes 
really high performers that I 

411
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,560
can see is just. 
You know, they can just put in, 

412
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,800
they're tireless. 
It's not even I mean, some of 

413
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,040
them are very smart, but the 
tirelessness and the consistency

414
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,720
is a big part of it. 
And that's right. 

415
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,440
So, so maybe you have some 
thoughts on that. 

416
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,680
Go ahead. 
I would say, look, I am very 

417
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,080
hopeful that soon I'm not 
developing one there, there'll 

418
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,000
be a real time cortisol sensor 
just like we have real time 

419
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,680
glucose sensors. 
I can't, you know, I don't want 

420
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,960
to make too much of it, but it's
hard to be hyperbolic around 

421
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,840
this, getting that morning 
cortisol peak as high as it can 

422
00:20:58,840 --> 00:20:59,920
be. 
And some days you can't get 

423
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,480
sunlight and some days you can't
exercise. 

424
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,600
And it's a, but do as many 
things as you can to boost your 

425
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,840
morning cortisol and then get 
into your day. 

426
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,000
And then I should just say just 
to make for completion's sake in

427
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,280
the evening or when it comes 
time for your bedtime, because I

428
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:14,800
realize people wake up at 
different times. 

429
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,920
You want to do everything to 
lower your cortisol, long exhale

430
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,240
breathing to lower your heart 
rate. 

431
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,240
You want to reduce the amount of
bright screen light. 

432
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,080
So maybe you wear blue blockers,
maybe you don't, maybe you just 

433
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,240
dim the lights, maybe you don't.
If you're going to exercise in 

434
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,960
the evening, it's been shown 
exercise in the evening because 

435
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,880
your baseline cortisol is 
already pretty low, will triple 

436
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,640
or quadruple your baseline 
levels of cortisol. 

437
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,560
And, and the consequence of that
because of this negative 

438
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,720
feedback loop that I was 
referring to is that the next 

439
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,080
morning, your morning cortisol 
levels are lower than they 

440
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,000
normally would be. 
And so people feel kind of 

441
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,640
groggy. 
So it's fine to exercise later 

442
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,680
in the day, but you need to 
protect your evening cortisol. 

443
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:53,920
Make sure that it comes back 
down. 

444
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,120
This is a lot of what Brian and 
I and other people are talking 

445
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,160
about, but not talking about. 
We don't talk about it in this 

446
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,720
frame. 
So just think about your waking 

447
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,680
and your your first two hours of
your day and your last two hours

448
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,840
of the day. 
Set up everything and the 

449
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,560
simplest thing to say, you asked
for three or a small batch. 

450
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,160
I'm saying get your morning 
cortisol high. 

451
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,200
Get your evening and nighttime 
cortisol or pre bedtime cortisol

452
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,240
low. 
And you look at Brian's post, 

453
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,280
he's like, you know, read 
instead of being online or do 

454
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,440
some breathing. 
It all fits into this framework.

455
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,280
I'm saying again, exercise. 
Yeah. 

456
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,440
So it simplifies a lot. 
And I just want to point out for

457
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,440
longevity sake, a so-called 
flattening of the cortisol 

458
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,760
curve, meaning in the afternoon 
cortisol levels are not 

459
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,080
dropping, but they're relatively
stable or they're dropping too 

460
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,520
slowly is correlated with poor 
longevity outcomes, poor cancer 

461
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,560
outcomes. 
Poor people tend who tend to be 

462
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,120
anxious or have middle of the 
night waking and then they can't

463
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:44,640
get back to sleep. 
It's because their cortisol is 

464
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,440
too high. 
The whole notion that if you 

465
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,160
sleep with lights on in the 
room, even relatively dim 

466
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,920
lights, morning glucose is 
elevated, makes perfect sense 

467
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,440
with through the lens of what 
cortisol does, which is to 

468
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,200
deploy glucose. 
So I think what we've seen in 

469
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280
the last few years, look, I love
technology. 

470
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,760
I'm from the South Bay, so I 
embrace technology. 

471
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,160
But I think what people are 
doing is they're boosting their 

472
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,360
evening cortisol too much. 
That's setting up issues the 

473
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:08,280
next morning. 
And then it took us several 

474
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,320
years for this to cascade, 
right? 

475
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,760
And so if people want to get 
back on track and you have to 

476
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,200
push everything into this 
framework of high morning 

477
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,960
cortisol, low pre bed cortisol, 
you get that right? 

478
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:23,520
Like 80% of things fall into 
place. 

479
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,280
Figure out when you can 
exercise, do the post exercise, 

480
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,920
you know, sauna or hot shower to
bring things down, you know, all

481
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,280
avoid obviously caffeine in the 
evening of if you're going to 

482
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,760
take something like ashwagandha 
to like reduce your cortisol, 

483
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,640
which is pretty potent at 
reducing cortisol, make sure 

484
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,520
you're doing that in the 
evening, not in the morning. 

485
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,040
All of this kind of stuff really
adds up. 

486
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,560
And you asked what you know, you
said people who are really hard 

487
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,400
driving and do, yeah, I've seen 
some scientists like this. 

488
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,080
I'm like, this is incredible. 
They work 15 hour days, seven 

489
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,080
days a week. 
How do they do it? 

490
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,200
I think it's very important for 
everybody to figure out what 

491
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,040
they can do consistently in 
terms of work hours over the 

492
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,720
next five years because it does 
change over time. 

493
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,480
But I turn 50 in two weeks. 
Honestly, I have more energy and

494
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,080
I feel better than I did in my 
30s. 

495
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,120
And I felt awesome in my 30s. 
And it's because I put the work 

496
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,400
in, you know, I've just been 
doing it consistently. 

497
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,480
I mean, it's like, it's like 
investing, you know, it's like 

498
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,680
it's just, you just compound, 
you compound gains, right? 

499
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,320
And so, and it's small at 1st 
and then over time you're like, 

500
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,000
this is crazy. 
My friends who are 50 are kind 

501
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,840
of turning into melted candles 
or they're trying to recover 

502
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,400
themselves. 
And I feel great. 

503
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,160
And it's not because I'm gifted 
genetically or anything. 

504
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,680
You just invest time and you 
invest energy in a number of 

505
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,480
things. 
And it took me to the point of 

506
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,680
understanding cortisol. 
That was like, oh, pretty much 

507
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,360
everything centers around this. 
You do some mindfulness 

508
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,840
meditation, you could do it in 
the morning, sure, but in the 

509
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,200
evening it would be very 
beneficial. 

510
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,840
If you in the afternoon, you 
say, well, what's going on 

511
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,840
there? 
Most of us are getting the bulk 

512
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,960
of our quality work done during 
about a 2 to 4 hour period. 

513
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,600
And then there are these phenoms
like Elon, I think is a good 

514
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,160
example, seems to be able to 
just go, go, go, go, go. 

515
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,400
I hope his body holds up. 
I mean, that's really the the 

516
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,760
the. 
Issue he really is end of 1. 

517
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,400
I I just think he violates every
single rule that we have for 

518
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,720
founders in terms of like focus 
on one company at a time. 

519
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,040
And so like he just shatters, 
shatters all of those rules. 

520
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,560
But yeah. 
Yeah, he's he's a tricky 1 to to

521
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,000
generalize. 
Yeah, I mean, some of my I won't

522
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,280
name names, but some of my 
friends who ended up making 

523
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,080
billions of dollars through, 
let's just say online sales 

524
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,080
platforms and things in the 
2000s have asked me many times, 

525
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,040
like, what do you think allows 
Elon to do what what he does? 

526
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,120
And I, you know, and I think I 
think some of it is that he's 

527
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,640
learned to funnel stress into 
output. 

528
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,160
He's very, you know, as far as 
go and no go circuits. 

529
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,760
He seems to be able to take 
whatever adrenaline is in his 

530
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,440
system and turn it into very 
funneled go. 

531
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,280
I doubt he does a ton of of 
whatever ambivalence he may have

532
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,840
he he masks it very well. 
I mean, some of it is software, 

533
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,080
some of it is hardware in the 
sense of his genetics and so on 

534
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,080
and so forth. 
But on, I mean, the reason is I 

535
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,560
know a lot of you and I both 
know a lot of billionaires, a 

536
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,840
lot of found people, but they 
were recently successful 

537
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,840
ourselves. 
And everybody feels Elon just 

538
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,000
playing a completely different 
sport. 

539
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,400
Like he's just so far out there.
Like even, you know, Larry Page 

540
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,760
or Jensen Huang, who are 
obviously very, very, very 

541
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,000
competent people have said 
something along those lines. 

542
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,800
Maybe just coming back. 
OK. 

543
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,960
So one of the things that we're 
doing at network school is we're

544
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,440
building startup societies. 
And so you're familiar with 

545
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160
like, you know, startup society,
network state as a concept, you 

546
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,360
know. 
Yeah, maybe just summarize it 

547
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,160
for me. 
And when before we we started, I

548
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,800
saw a video that gives me a 
sense of kind of the the culture

549
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,800
and landscape there. 
But I but I'd like to understand

550
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,440
more fully what you're doing. 
Sure. 

551
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,760
So think of us as the third kind
of thing. 

552
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,280
So there's Internet companies, 
you know, there's Internet 

553
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,520
currencies like Bitcoin and 
Ethereum, and now there's 

554
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,440
Internet communities. 
So, you know, people might say, 

555
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,280
hey, what kind of startup 
company do you want to found? 

556
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,120
Or more recently, I'm doing a 
new coin. 

557
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,200
We're having a third kind of 
thing, which is I want to start 

558
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,640
a new community based on X, 
right? 

559
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:16,000
So for example, if Andrew 
Huberman was to start a new 

560
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,320
community to take everything 
you're saying right, and you 

561
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,840
could engineer the environment, 
OK, as like a small example, you

562
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,840
wake up and there's like a 
glowing footpath that points you

563
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,320
towards the treadmill and 
weights and the cold water is 

564
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,200
right there and the windows open
at that right time, you know, 

565
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,640
with IoT curtains to have the 
sunlight come in. 

566
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,800
You know what I mean? 
If you could edit the 

567
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,320
environment from the home to 
the, you know, like the 

568
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,120
neighborhood to the 
superstructure, you know, for 

569
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:57,320
example, a walkable community, 
for example, like what kinds of 

570
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,200
food is there and so and so 
forth, what is the ideal human 

571
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,920
community? 
Because I actually think we can 

572
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,360
build it. 
Awesome. 

573
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,640
I mean, I think, you know, I 
think a lot nowadays about how 8

574
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,760
sleep, you know, has really 
established itself as the 

575
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,360
leader, right? 
I think they're more or less 

576
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:17,800
peerless in the sense of being 
able to engineer the sleep 

577
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,840
environment. 
We understand the different 

578
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,560
states of mind and body one 
wants to enter. 

579
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,960
You want to be cooler to false. 
If you want your deep sleep, you

580
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,480
want to get your rapid I've 
movement sleep. 

581
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,960
It turns out here's a fun one. 
If you can find a way to heat 

582
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,880
your sleep environment in the 
last two hours of sleep, you'll 

583
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,000
get a lot more REM sleep. 
So this kind of pan rule like, 

584
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,440
oh, colder is better for sleep. 
That's great for falling asleep 

585
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,920
and getting deep sleep in the 
middle of the night, but not so 

586
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,520
great at the for REM sleep. 
For REM sleep, you can get 

587
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400
another 30 minutes of REM sleep 
by making the last hours of your

588
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840
sleep warm environment. 
So, so for instance, they've 

589
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,640
done that right And you get data
and you can update in now it's 

590
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,120
using AI to update your what you
need. 

591
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,520
And if you a woman has a 
menopause, you know it's 

592
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,600
updating there too. 
And we need to do the same thing

593
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:01,920
for the waking environment, 
right? 

594
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,960
So little has been discussed 
about waking brain states. 

595
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,440
And then a few years back it was
all like alpha waves, beta 

596
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,680
waves, beta waves. 
We never hear about that 

597
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,880
anymore. 
We talk about focus, creativity.

598
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,520
I mean, we're going to look back
in 10 years and go, that's 

599
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,040
crazy. 
That's like saying like jogging 

600
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,920
is all cardio or, you know, or 
bodybuilding is all resistance. 

601
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,040
Or I mean, you can train for 
strength, you can train for 

602
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:26,920
power. 
You can train. 

603
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,480
I mean, we need to subdivide the
waking day and states of mind 

604
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,400
according to what people want 
when they, when they want to be 

605
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,440
present for their family, when 
the, when they want to be locked

606
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,200
in to a given meeting. 
And right now it's all done very

607
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,000
haphazardly. 
People like, oh, well, I drink 

608
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,800
caffeine, I hydrate and you 
know, and I try and get some 

609
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,960
exercise. 
And I mean, we've approached 

610
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360
sleep the right way finally. 
And the technologies with sleep 

611
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,760
are getting even better because 
of during sleep eye trackers. 

612
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,240
And we can go down this rabbit 
hole, but we won't. 

613
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,000
But here's a little teaser that 
maybe we talk about next year. 

614
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,400
There's a lot of technology 
coming out that links the 

615
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680
vestibular system and sleep such
that there will soon be 

616
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,840
technologies that will allow you
to force your body and brain 

617
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840
into sleep. 
You'll put on a device or your 

618
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040
sleep environment will change 
and you will be asleep within 

619
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,320
minutes. 
And you could and and we need 

620
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,920
that for waking states, this 
idea that we're just supposed to

621
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,040
kind of stumble through our life
trying to figure out how to be 

622
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,560
the optimal self. 
It's it's all it frankly, it's 

623
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,040
where psychology and 
neuroscience initially branched 

624
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,600
off was talking about ideas 
versus finding mechanisms. 

625
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,240
And then the two fields came 
together again. 

626
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,080
And so we could say, OK, like 
Elon representing the extreme, 

627
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,560
someone with ADHD and kind of 
failure to launch kid at home 

628
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,840
and his, you know, watching 
YouTube or, you know, just 

629
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,960
flailing as the kind of opposite
extreme. 

630
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,440
But we should we have protocols 
for how to get muscles stronger,

631
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,560
how to get leaner, how to eat, 
how to improve blood lipids. 

632
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,720
I mean, we have protocols for 
all this stuff, but we have 

633
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:06,760
essentially no really grounded 
mechanistic technology tools to 

634
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,280
direct brain states in the in 
the waking day. 

635
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,320
It's like, oh, put, put on a 
mask and maybe get into like a 

636
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Theta. 
It's like, it's crazy. 

637
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,240
It's it's like we're in the 
infancy. 

638
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,160
So an environment of the sort 
that you're talking about is in 

639
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,600
is an incredible idea because 
people need to know what to do 

640
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,880
when in order to set the 
foundation of alertness and 

641
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,440
focus that then they can lean 
into at the right times. 

642
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
But then within that, that 
framework of sitting down and 

643
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,640
coding or sitting down and 
having a whatever therapy 

644
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,960
session, whatever the person is 
doing, maybe they're the 

645
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,560
therapist, maybe they're the 
patient, doesn't matter. 

646
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,680
Maybe they're doing surgery to 
have tools that are constantly 

647
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,520
providing feedback to the brain 
so that it's in the the right 

648
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,320
end body. 
So it's in the right state for 

649
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,920
those activities. 
And AI can do this, as you know,

650
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,120
I mean, this is it's, it's not a
big reach to accomplish this, 

651
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,840
but we really need to define 
what it is we're trying to 

652
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,880
accomplish. 
And I think for most 

653
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,240
entrepreneurs and most people 
who want a better life, it's 

654
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,720
really about understanding. 
OK, like what are the three or 

655
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,920
four blocks of waking states I 
want to, you know, accomplish 

656
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,200
today. 
What am I going to place into 

657
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,040
those blocks? 
And then getting as much 

658
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,760
assistance as they possibly can.
And sure, some will come from 

659
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,280
pharmacology, but I think most 
of it is going to come from 

660
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,080
directives. 
I love this idea of like the 

661
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,280
the, the floor lighting up, 
sending you in the right 

662
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,720
direction, adjusting for the 
movement of the sun. 

663
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,480
Right now there are these apps 
that tell you, well, the sun is 

664
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,840
rising over here or not there. 
I mean, it's cool, but it's 

665
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,880
super crude. 
To think about it. 

666
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,600
So there's there's so much room 
for technology development here.

667
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,600
I'd like to see a real time 
cortisol sensor. 

668
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,600
I'd like to see that cortisol 
sensor have AI based feedback 

669
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,680
with one's activities so that 
you can. 

670
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,920
It will essentially tell you 
what to do and when to make 

671
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,600
things better, including your 
sleep. 

672
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,120
We have access to the sleep 
data. 

673
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,800
I mean soon all of this will be 
integrated. 

674
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,760
My question is where will it be 
integrated? 

675
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,880
I love the idea of an online 
community. 

676
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,520
I think also it should be the 
case that I just have like a 

677
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,560
little sticker sensor. 
I imagine this as a the military

678
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,400
uses this. 
There are little sticker sensors

679
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,960
that use, you know, it's on 
Bluetooth, you know, 12 hour 

680
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,240
battery or something. 
And it can measure everything 

681
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,560
through cavitation, heart rate, 
breathing rate, could get 

682
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:14,560
cortisol levels. 
It can. 

683
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,160
And this is used in the military
in the context of kind of 

684
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,600
monitoring soldiers out on the 
field from an iPad. 

685
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000
They can tell if someone got a 
bullet wound, that's a through 

686
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,560
and through, if they're dead, if
they, you know, they can triage 

687
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,760
from a distance. 
I mean, that's an extreme case, 

688
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,320
but we should be able to do 
this. 

689
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,000
We should be able to like, oh, 
you know, like I believe a 

690
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,680
little more jazzed up right now 
than I need to be if I want to, 

691
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,920
you know, focus in a couple of 
hours and, and it but over time,

692
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,040
it's just going to naturally 
bring us into the states we want

693
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,400
to be in as opposed to, you 
know, these like subtle 

694
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,320
electronic taps on the shoulder 
all the time. 

695
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,800
It's it's going to probably 
provide feedback to our Vegas 

696
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,120
and basically control our 
respiration rate and pretty soon

697
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,520
will be as optimized as could 
possibly be without any invasive

698
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,600
technology. 
I don't think of a sticker as 

699
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,600
invasive. 
Yeah, in fact, actually there's 

700
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,800
there's ones that don't break 
the skin that actually can can 

701
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,440
transmit quite a lot of 
information like the sort of non

702
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,400
invasive patches, right or this 
non skin breaking, you know. 

703
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,480
So, OK, so the Huberman, the 
ideal Huberman startup society, 

704
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,600
OK, if we were to take 
everything you've done because 

705
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,719
you have a bunch of edits, let 
me give you an example. 

706
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,320
Suppose that we had the self 
driving car society. 

707
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,840
You take existing laws and you 
just change those laws that and 

708
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,880
you basically say, for example, 
this zone, only self driving 

709
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,760
cars are allowed, no humans. 
OK, that actually changed a lot 

710
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,560
because for example, all the 
cars are parked on the edges and

711
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,040
cars are parked in like tunnels 
underneath the the city. 

712
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,239
And, you know, people hit a 
button and the car goes and 

713
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,920
parks itself, and you've got a 
walkable center and the entire 

714
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,760
shape of driveways changes, and 
you don't have lots of parking 

715
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:03,240
like that one change actually 
has enormous ripple effects 

716
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:07,880
downstream, right? 
So, for example, are there any 

717
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,000
legal changes to permit 
something or ban something or 

718
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,400
both that you would propose that
would start making the Huberman 

719
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,040
special economic zone or 
Huberman Health zone? 

720
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,440
Oh yes, I mean, I really believe
that if you get this cortisol 

721
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,720
thing right and you get your 
circadian rhythm right, you get 

722
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:31,440
your circadian rhythm right, 
everything else becomes 10 times

723
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,920
if not 1000 times easier in 
terms of getting exercise, 

724
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,560
eating correctly, mental health.
I mean, there are a ton of data 

725
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000
on this now that the brighter 
your mornings and days, 

726
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,720
literally, and the darker your 
nights in an additive way, the 

727
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,080
better your mentor mental 
health, Even if you're in a gym,

728
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,920
even if you're in a dim 
environment all day long, which 

729
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,600
I don't recommend, if you make 
your night time environment very

730
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,080
dark, mental health improves. 
If you make your mornings 

731
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,960
brighter and your days brighter,
mental health improves. 

732
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,720
Now there have been a few 
companies that have attempted to

733
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,880
create lighting that's bright 
enough during the day and it and

734
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,120
create conditions that are dark 
at night and it really hasn't 

735
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,960
gone anywhere. 
I mean, what I would like to 

736
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,720
see. 
So you said like in terms of 

737
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,240
regulations, I think buildings 
should get either by natural 

738
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:22,360
light or by artificial light, 
should ensure that there's 

739
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,040
enough bright light early in the
day and throughout the day and 

740
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,440
it's dimmer and darker at night.
I mean, I wish that were a law. 

741
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,240
I mean, Americans don't like to 
be told what to do. 

742
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,000
But right, first of all, it 
would save on. 

743
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000
Energy. 
What if it's not America? 

744
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,720
Assume it can be done somewhere 
in the world. 

745
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:37,880
Great. 
Where those people are OK with. 

746
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,400
Great. 
You know something as long as it

747
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:40,000
works. 
Go ahead. 

748
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,040
Yeah. 
And even though, you know, 

749
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,000
climate change is a 
controversial thing, you'd also 

750
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,800
be doing a tremendous service to
birds and to insects and to the 

751
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,720
ecosystem of non human animals. 
Because the truth is that light 

752
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:57,320
pollution is really screwing 
things up in terms of like 

753
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,280
songbirds are singing longer now
they're mating song and everyone

754
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,560
goes, oh, that's cool, they're 
mating longer. 

755
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,480
Actually, it's screwing up all 
sorts of things within the 

756
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,200
ecosystem because of light 
pollution. 

757
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,400
But what are you going to tell 
people? 

758
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:07,520
Oh, you got to turn off your 
lights? 

759
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,720
I mean, we're we're a hard 
driving species. 

760
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:11,520
We want to build stuff. 
You know, you turn off the 

761
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,960
lights, but there are ways to 
modify light cycles, still allow

762
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,400
for night shifts, greatly 
improve health and as a 

763
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,040
byproduct of that to improve the
the climate and the ecosystem 

764
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,200
for insects, birds and every 
other animal. 

765
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,040
In the same way that sound 
pollution in the oceans is 

766
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,680
causing major issues for 
migration of animals and things 

767
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,440
like that. 
I don't that's not my main 

768
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,400
focus. 
But the more I realize that you 

769
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,440
know this, we're not going to 
only wake up with the sun and go

770
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,400
to sleep with the sun. 
That's a great way to reset your

771
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,760
mental health. 
By the way, there's some really 

772
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,920
beautiful studies by Kenneth 
Wright out of University of 

773
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,840
Colorado that shows people are 
depressed, people have anxiety 

774
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,640
issues. 
They go camping for a weekend. 

775
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,920
They actually did this 
experiment, wake up with the 

776
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,120
sun, go to sleep with the sun. 
And even though they're using 

777
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,840
flashlights at night and stuff, 
they're not shining the 

778
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,200
flashlights into their own eyes,
right? 

779
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,120
And so, and their circadian 
rhythms reset and their mental 

780
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,920
health improves tremendously. 
It's just over and over again. 

781
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,960
So I would make, I would enforce
if if I were in charge, and I'm 

782
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,440
certainly not. 
Let me put it differently. 

783
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,040
If I had a magic wand, I would 
create light cycles that are 

784
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,600
collaborative with human health.
Now you do have your your Marc 

785
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,760
Andreessen's he's, you know, 
he's always poking fun at me 

786
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,840
about the Marc and I he's. 
It's self deprecating. 

787
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,720
He's self deprecating. 
Mark and I are friends and 

788
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,680
there's a yeah, of course, maybe
I should reveal this. 

789
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,760
But like, it's, it's, it's a 
game we're playing. 

790
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,040
It's a lot of fun. 
But Mark makes a very good 

791
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,360
point, which is like, he likes 
to stay up late and be online 

792
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,320
and he can crash out after four 
hours of bright light in the and

793
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,600
get up in the morning. 
And you know, Mark is also a bit

794
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,760
of an end of one too, right? 
I mean, if you really think 

795
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,840
about it, I mean, so I would 
enforce bright light during the 

796
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,880
morning and daytime and dark 
evenings. 

797
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,480
I would encourage more walking 
and more movement. 

798
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,160
We all know about steps that 
should be scripted into the 

799
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,360
day's activities in a way. 
You can't just take away 

800
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,560
escalators, but there should be 
something where we're not 

801
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,440
counting steps, where we have 
feedback on how much movement 

802
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,360
we're getting. 
I think glasses that can read 

803
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,240
out how much light has been 
delivered to the eyes. 

804
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,800
Did you get your photon quota 
for the day? 

805
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,480
All this stuff is so easy to do.
The problem is it always gets 

806
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,240
productized as in silo fashion. 
Exactly so the integrated, you 

807
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:25,520
know, so it's useful like one 
thing's with mid journey and so 

808
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:31,280
on now is we can think about 
what the Huberman Health Village

809
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,200
would look like just magic wand 
like if you take everything you 

810
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,640
know, and like what does the 
store serve in terms of food and

811
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,880
what do the units look like and 
how are they arranged and 

812
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,160
where's the gym and how is that 
set up and what machines are 

813
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,880
there? 
And also like, you know, just 

814
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,560
mentioned the light cycles, for 
example. 

815
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,680
I'll mention something, maybe 
you're aware of this, Like 

816
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,880
Xinhua in China and a few other 
places will actually turn off 

817
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,600
the Internet, I think at like. 
11:00 PM or something like that.

818
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,920
And only allow, yeah, so that 
the kids don't play video games 

819
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,240
all night. 
Amazing. 

820
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,840
OK, So now that is something 
that people might not want 

821
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,320
imposed on them. 
But I think a deep point is you 

822
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,080
can opt in to constraints like 
in the same way like if somebody

823
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,360
joins the military, they're 
signing up for like the Uniform 

824
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,800
Code of Military Justice, you 
know, or what have you, they're 

825
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,040
opting in to constraints, you 
know, So you, it's like signing 

826
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,400
a contract, you're consensually 
signing a contract that then 

827
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,240
constrains you afterwards for 
mutual benefit, right? 

828
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,880
So if you opt into constraints, 
A constrained society gives you 

829
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,960
in a sense, willpower as a 
service, right? 

830
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,440
So another example of this, one 
of the things we're rolling out 

831
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,120
in every school phone lockers so
that everybody can give the 

832
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,560
speaker their full attention or 
a dinner their full attention. 

833
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,600
So you know, like the phone 
lockers at gyms where you can 

834
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,640
put a phone in a lock, go, beep,
beep, beep like this, right? 

835
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,120
So we actually make heavier use 
of those phone lockers. 

836
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,400
So this way people have sort of 
this way, they aren't like, oh, 

837
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,200
looking down at their phone, 
whether it's a break in the 

838
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,520
conversation and everybody there
that's like a phone free zone. 

839
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,440
Or like another example is a 
Faraday cage zone where it's 

840
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,560
just pencil and paper. 
It's offline time and the 

841
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,120
Internet is sort of blocked. 
You know, you go into an 

842
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560
elevator and the Internet is 
like blocked. 

843
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:29,520
So imagine that some fraction of
buildings are offline offices, 

844
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,560
right? 
They're Faraday free zones 

845
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,440
basically, right? 
Fantastic. 

846
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:36,040
The reason I think about that is
I think that's like, you know, 

847
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,600
walkability, you know, we, we 
obviously cars are, I think cars

848
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,720
are good, but we advanced cars, 
we went to electric cars and 

849
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:44,680
self driving cars and even 
flying cars in China. 

850
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,520
We also subtracted cars where we
had walkable communities, right?

851
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,720
And the same way the Internet I 
think has a lot of good to it. 

852
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:52,320
We can advance that with AI and 
so on and so forth. 

853
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,680
But you can also subtract it. 
And maybe the answer is like 12 

854
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,840
hours a day minimum offline, 
like 8 hours. 

855
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,400
Go ahead. 
I converted an art gallery into 

856
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,040
a living space recently. 
I'm in that space now. 

857
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,840
I knew I wanted, I like fish 
tanks, obviously. 

858
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,880
So I wanted, you know, fish 
tank's actually the one right 

859
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,160
next to me. 
It's not complete yet, but 

860
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,720
there'll be an octopus there. 
I'm actually trying to get an 

861
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:14,480
octopus to use an iPad, you 
know, so. 

862
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:15,480
So not. 
Oh really? 

863
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,600
Oh wow, so they're smart. 
Actually, I'm very interested in

864
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,680
in merging cephalopods and AI. 
This is a pet project of mine, 

865
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,640
literally. 
So we'll talk about that some 

866
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,280
other time. 
I used to work on auto fish. 

867
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,320
OK, OK. 
To my left is a gym with the 

868
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,080
equipment that I want with 
skylights below that. 

869
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,640
I turned the basement, which 
used to be a video editing 

870
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,280
studio for another, the previous
owners into a space. 

871
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,160
There's no I don't allow any 
phones down there or Internet. 

872
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,800
I draw down there because I do 
anatomical drawings for my book 

873
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,880
and for other things. 
I read journal articles, I read 

874
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:54,280
books, textbooks, and there is I
do not bring my phone down there

875
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,480
and I don't even. 
Yeah, we both seem to use 

876
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,960
spatial memory. 
Like I have a little library 

877
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:05,320
nook that is just purely offline
and I just use pencil and paper.

878
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,040
And if I want something 
intranet, I will print it out 

879
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,360
and I'll bring it there and I'll
mark it up longhand because 

880
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,160
we're both kind of born in the 
80s or 90s or maybe you in the 

881
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,520
late 70s and so on and so forth.
And so remember the offline era 

882
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,840
and it's actually good to focus 
offline, then you can operate 

883
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:22,760
online. 
Do you agree with that? 

884
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,200
100% and I think that the people
who want to have a strong online

885
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,360
presence need to understand that
you build the things to bring 

886
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,840
online, offline. 
Exactly. 

887
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,960
The moment you're, I've come to 
realize that the moment I'm 

888
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,640
online, especially in social 
media, which I love, I really 

889
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,600
enjoy social media. 
I am a merged consumer creator 

890
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:47,480
and I think he was the investor,
Chris Sacca, that said you're 

891
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,520
either, you know, a creator or a
manager now. 

892
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,840
I think you're a consumer 
creator and in order to bring 

893
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,240
really good material forward, 
you have to get offline. 

894
00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:00,880
You have, yes. 
I just spent a week as I as I do

895
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,920
every summer with name dropping 
everyone, My good friend Rick 

896
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,960
Rubin, we're close and I would 
go and I'd spend time with him 

897
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,160
in Europe and, and most of that 
time we were spending discussing

898
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,280
ideas and, and the way Rick has 
created his life is all around 

899
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,480
being able to maximize the 
creative energy. 

900
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,480
He's big on sunlight. 
He takes great care of himself. 

901
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,520
He's he's awesome health now and
some years back he he switched 

902
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,400
to kind of eating more meat and 
he got much leaner and all this.

903
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,000
But his whole life is around 
connecting with his family and 

904
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,200
connecting with his work. 
And he puts real work into it. 

905
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,720
Meditation every morning, 
listening to music, focusing his

906
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:42,040
energy. 
I mean, he, there's nothing 

907
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,360
haphazard about Rick or his 
life. 

908
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,360
People, I think see him as this 
like, you know, really mellow 

909
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,240
dude. 
And but there's an intensity 

910
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,400
there that's all funneled into 
incredible work and observing 

911
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,320
that and being able to 
participate in those kinds of 

912
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,280
environments, it's been 
immensely beneficial. 

913
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,480
And I try and create my home 
environment that way. 

914
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,000
Now it gets trickier with kids 
and family and all this stuff 

915
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,200
and there, but there are ways to
navigate that. 

916
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,120
There absolutely are, you know, 
and the key is really, I think 

917
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,920
as you point out, to segment 
spaces or or segment times 

918
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,000
during the day, but it's very 
hard to say, OK, except perhaps 

919
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,720
at night, like I'm going to just
stay offline, right? 

920
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,400
I think that segmenting spaces 
helps a lot, a lot. 

921
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,600
And. 
You push something else, Yeah, 

922
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,720
which is, I think you and I also
do this. 

923
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:31,240
And I find a lot of people don't
do this because it's not the 

924
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:34,600
default. 
But I turn off all notifications

925
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,560
on just about everything, 
definitely. 

926
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,040
And I just go and it's almost 
like a farmer harvesting. 

927
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,680
Yes. 
When I want to, I go and I 

928
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,920
respond to all my messages, but 
otherwise, I turn off. 

929
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,800
I mute everything. 
I turn off all notifications. 

930
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,960
I never want pings appearing on 
screen. 

931
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,520
It's do not disturb to the 
absolute Max and all the 

932
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,160
settings and so on and so forth.
Do you do the same? 

933
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,080
Yeah. 
So the model for all of this 

934
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,600
actually I gleaned for myself, I
gleaned from academia where I 

935
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,840
realized that the raw material, 
there are two things that 

936
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,120
mattered most in progressing as 
a scientist. 

937
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,520
One is collecting data and the 
other, well, three things 

938
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,440
really. 
So collecting and publishing 

939
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,240
data and and raising money 
grants, yeah, right. 

940
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,720
But then there were all these 
other things like teaching, 

941
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:20,480
mentoring students. 
They're all very important and 

942
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,240
part of being an academic. 
But I had to put I've had on my 

943
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,840
whiteboard in my office as a 
junior professor before I got 

944
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,400
tenure, I said papers, grants. 
And so I made it. 

945
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,160
I had to just remind myself to 
spend 80% of my time, my waking 

946
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,000
time focusing on that because 
otherwise there's committee 

947
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,240
work, there's colleagues 
dropping by, there's the guy 

948
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,200
that that just got tenure and 
they want to come by and hang 

949
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,480
out. 
They want to have a coffee. 

950
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,360
And you will fail as an academic
if you are not a bit selfish and

951
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,680
self-directed in, in grants and 
papers. 

952
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,360
And it's actually what you owe 
your laboratory. 

953
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,640
It's what you owe your students 
in postdocs, because nothing 

954
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,320
stresses out a lab more than the
question of will we get this 

955
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:58,360
grant? 
It's stresses. 

956
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,920
It's like telling your kids 
like, listen, I don't know if 

957
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,720
I'm going to get a paycheck. 
I don't know if we're going to 

958
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:04,040
eat. 
And they're like, Oh my God, you

959
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,200
it's, it's, it's actually cruel.
It's, it's cruel to do so. 

960
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,800
I, I realized as an academic and
I caught some Flack for this, 

961
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,120
that I didn't have to go to 
every seminar. 

962
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,000
And if I went to a seminar and 
it wasn't very good, guess what?

963
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,760
I stood up and walked out 
because I value my time and I 

964
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,680
care about my students and post 
docs more than I care about the 

965
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,000
social constraints around this. 
And you know, I, I did catch 

966
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,560
some Flack. 
I had a couple of like, oh, we 

967
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,800
don't see you at seminars. 
I was like, well, your tenure, 

968
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,760
dear Howard Hughes investigator.
How about we we talk in five 

969
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,320
years when and you know, I'll 
have a bit more time for this, 

970
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:43,080
you know, so it's the culture 
often breeds a distribution of 

971
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,760
of people's attention and kind 
of buy into people's attention 

972
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,480
in a way that's not considerate 
of of the the real goals. 

973
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,680
OK, and I love seminars, but if 
it's a shitty seminar, I'm 

974
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,280
walking out. 
I'm sorry. 

975
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,920
Yes, I agree with that. 
So I do the same thing in my 

976
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,120
personal life and in my my work 
life, which is not everything 

977
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,080
can be optimized, but I try and 
set things up so that I can be 

978
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,760
more present for family and 
friends by virtue of the fact 

979
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,120
that I'm less present for them 
when I'm working. 

980
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,160
And, you know, and, and I also 
think that there soon will be a 

981
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,680
literature because I know 
there's experiments are 

982
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,360
happening where, you know, the 
brain we know is plastic. 

983
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,720
We train ourselves for different
modes of attention. 

984
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,680
And if you're allowing your 
attention to be broken every, 

985
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,000
you know, 3 to 7 minutes or even
more frequently by other devices

986
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,040
and other activities, other 
communications, you, you're 

987
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,600
training your brain to, you 
know, to be the squirrel that 

988
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,800
everyone jokes about with like, 
you know, the, the squirrel, you

989
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,800
know that you're becoming the 
squirrel. 

990
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,320
And it's, you know, squirrels 
probably have a better 

991
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,320
attentional mechanism than a lot
of people nowadays. 

992
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,560
So I think it took us about 10 
years to get here where we're 

993
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,800
starting to realize, oh, you 
know, our behaviors, feedback on

994
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,280
our brain circuitry and and now 
we're starting to try and think 

995
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,120
about how to recover that. 
Setting up unique spaces where 

996
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,280
you just don't do certain things
also helps other people respect 

997
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,320
those boundaries because if it's
by virtue of time, they're like,

998
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,120
oh, I text you. 
If I don't text you before 10 

999
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,760
AM, you know, it's I can't get 
to you. 

1000
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,040
Or after 10:00 PM. 
We tend to respect people's 

1001
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,800
sleep boundaries where you say, 
you know, you don't expect a 

1002
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,320
text back after 9:00 PM for most
people. 

1003
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,240
OK, but space boundaries are 
great because people that know 

1004
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,680
me know when I'm down in that 
basement, I'm not going to 

1005
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,320
respond to anything. 
I don't care what time of day it

1006
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:30,640
is. 
So if I say I was in my 

1007
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,280
basement, they're like, oh, 
they're not offended. 

1008
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,400
And this stuff matters because 
in order to make a community 

1009
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,920
work, it not just as a siloed, 
it looked like Huberman 

1010
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,360
community or or Johnson 
community or Balaji community, 

1011
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:46,080
that eventually there's going to
be cross talk between these 

1012
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,400
communities. 
Of course, of course and. 

1013
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,680
So understanding that when 
people are offline, it's for a 

1014
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,560
critical reason often just sends
the message in the same way 

1015
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,920
that, you know, former Dean of 
our medical school, Phil Pizzo, 

1016
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,240
everyone knew that guy ran every
morning from 4:30 to 5:30 AM and

1017
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:07,360
then ran the medical school and 
you go, he's a badass and kind 

1018
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,000
of, and you'd go, oh, like, 
maybe I should do something like

1019
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,640
that. 
That's a little early to the 

1020
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,040
Jocko. 
That that's a little early 

1021
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,440
because you're waking up before 
the sun, but it is, you know, a 

1022
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:17,680
certain kind of guy who likes to
do that. 

1023
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,000
Tim Cook also gets up and does 
his bike and or. 

1024
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:20,640
What have you? 
Yeah. 

1025
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,920
And the results obviously speak 
for them, OK. 

1026
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,800
Yeah, so now. 
All right, so slightly switching

1027
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:26,440
gear. 
So that was good. 

1028
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,720
That's like the human health 
zone for a living. 

1029
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,240
OK, let's do it. 
What about let's do it? 

1030
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,160
I want to do it. 
Let's. 

1031
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:35,040
Do it. 
I mean, I have it here in my own

1032
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,080
spot, but let's do it, yeah. 
Send me photos if you want and 

1033
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,680
then I'll see if we can mock up 
something over here. 

1034
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,160
OK. 
Now related to that on on like 

1035
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,280
sort of the other end of it is 
there's a lot of biotech that is

1036
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,200
not either biotech, biomedicine,
genetics, you know, the whole 

1037
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,920
whole shebang. 
Basically biomedicine as a, as a

1038
00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,840
whole thing where it is 
difficult to do in the US 

1039
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,880
medical system because it can't 
easily get reimbursed or it 

1040
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,200
can't get a so-called CPT code, 
current procedural terminology 

1041
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:13,080
or FDA doesn't allow it through 
or blocks it for many years. 

1042
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:18,680
Whether it's a drug or a device 
or, you know, there's, there's 

1043
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,120
also like CLIA, like you know, 
it, it, you know, it is, there's

1044
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,960
many different kinds of 
regulators and regulatory 

1045
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,120
blocks. 
Another one is something called 

1046
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,640
CPOM, corporate practice of 
medicine, where in theory, why, 

1047
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,640
why don't you see too many 
hospital start-ups because a non

1048
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,200
physician can't employ A 
physician by law because of 

1049
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,760
so-called corporate practice of 
medicine doctrine and so on. 

1050
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,760
And there's various workarounds 
for this, but they're all pain 

1051
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,000
in the ass workarounds. 
So given all that, what does the

1052
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,960
human health zone look like for 
the developers of these 

1053
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,440
technologies? 
So we just talked about kind of 

1054
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,120
the consumer, right? 
Like, you know, the blinds and 

1055
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,920
the sunlight and all that kind 
of stuff. 

1056
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,400
You know, the offline time, the 
patches, the glasses, right? 

1057
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,280
You mentioned all these things 
and that's amazing. 

1058
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,000
What about on the producer side?
What kinds of things you know do

1059
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,080
you see as being held back by 
the system, or what kinds of 

1060
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,320
things you just develop? 
You mean in terms of drug and 

1061
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,360
other types of technologies? 
I'd like to see more be more 

1062
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,200
ubiquitous. 
I'll give a concrete example. 

1063
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,240
So have you heard of Mini Circle
in Prospera? 

1064
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,720
No. 
OK, so mini circle is so first, 

1065
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,520
what is Prospera? 
Prospera is a startup society in

1066
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,480
Honduras. 
The law got changed years ago to

1067
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,760
allow for new special economic 
zones. 

1068
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,720
And one of the things they had 
there was a biotech free zone 

1069
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,240
where you could pick regulations
from 33 different countries. 

1070
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:42,680
So you basically pick and 
choose. 

1071
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,040
So this way you have regulatory 
competition like I was talking 

1072
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,320
about earlier and mini circle 
set up there. 

1073
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,120
And there's a bunch of people 
who are investors, Sam Alton's 

1074
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,040
investor, I'm an investor, bunch
of other people are investors. 

1075
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,760
And what this did is it 
basically had an experimental 

1076
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:01,600
treatment to give you plasmids 
that would essentially increase 

1077
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,640
your muscle mass, among other 
things, OK. 

1078
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,360
And so it's experimental 
treatment. 

1079
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,680
And one of my friends took it 
and he said he felt absolutely. 

1080
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,080
Now there's there's studies on 
why this looked like they 

1081
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,960
weren't doing it until they're 
blind, OK, they'll show you 

1082
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:18,960
somebody. 
This looked interesting. 

1083
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,920
He said he felt absolutely 
amazing afterwards, like 10 

1084
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,320
years younger. 
Like it was like a blood 

1085
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,000
transfusion. 
And he's posting about how he 

1086
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,800
looked super jacked afterwards. 
And it was like a different 

1087
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,560
mechanism of action. 
And then Bezos followed him, 

1088
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,120
Jeff Bezos, because this is 
something money can't buy, like 

1089
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:36,480
a genuinely new medical 
treatment. 

1090
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,000
And that showed, you know, one 
of the reasons I'm into startup 

1091
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,960
societies in network states is 
because we can actually get 

1092
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,760
biotech free zones where it's 
willing, you know, patient, 

1093
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,040
willing doctor, Right. 
And there's various 

1094
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,000
controversies around this 
because people are like, Oh my 

1095
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,960
God, you shouldn't be free to, 
you know, I believe in your 

1096
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,200
body, your choice. 
I do believe that you should be 

1097
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:56,840
free to. 
Yeah, that's right. 

1098
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,440
And so that that extends to 
medical sovereignty, right? 

1099
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,120
Like if you want to take a 
treatment and their guy wants to

1100
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,760
give it to you and you're like 
of, you know, of age, whether 

1101
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,600
it's 21 or whatever it is in 
your jurisdiction that says post

1102
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,200
21 years old, you're walking in 
clear eyed. 

1103
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,520
You've got informed consent, 
whatever forms we need, OK, 

1104
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,920
whatever procedures, you should 
be able to be medically 

1105
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,800
sovereign in the same way that 
you should be able to opt out of

1106
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,960
the SEC's guidelines and 
actually go, you know, the SEC 

1107
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,760
didn't want to let anybody other
than quote accredited investors 

1108
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,320
invest in something which would 
have, it meant everybody who 

1109
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,400
wasn't already wealthy would not
have been able to invest in 

1110
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,160
crypto and so they wouldn't have
become wealthy, right? 

1111
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,960
So the FDA often doesn't want 
people to have large effect size

1112
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,640
drugs. 
They want small side effect size

1113
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,000
drugs, which are different, 
right? 

1114
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,440
Like large effect size means you
have a huge effect and it's like

1115
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,760
Ozempic, it's like a like a big 
change in your life. 

1116
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,960
Small side effect size means FDA
doesn't get any negative press. 

1117
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,400
And those are very different in 
terms of whether it's beneficial

1118
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,840
to the to the end user or not. 
Like the entire system in the 

1119
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,000
20th century is set up to 
minimize side effect size as 

1120
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:03,360
opposed to maximizing effect 
size. 

1121
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,640
Anyway, the reason I'm just 
saying all that is that's an 

1122
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,080
example of a special economic 
zone, a biotech free zone that 

1123
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,840
allowed one of these treatments.
Because you always see papers 

1124
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,640
that have these amazing things 
happening in academia or on 

1125
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,520
mouse experiments, but they 
never make it to humans because 

1126
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,600
it's like this long 10 year 
tunnel maybe to get through, 

1127
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,920
right? 
So let's not. 

1128
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,000
Use it. 
I mean, it's kind of amazing to 

1129
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,720
me that right now it's like the 
creatine craze creatine's been 

1130
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:33,360
around. 
I started taking creatine when I

1131
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:37,920
was 18 and and that's like and 
it works, right? 

1132
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,960
Right Right now I'm not taking. 
It makes you smarter too. 

1133
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:40,920
Yeah, go ahead. 
Yeah. 

1134
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,680
And if you're sleep deprived, I 
recommend people doubling or 

1135
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:44,920
tripling the dose for a few 
days. 

1136
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,440
You'll get a little bit more, 
you'll head to the bathroom a 

1137
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,840
few more times, but you'll 
notice a significant offset of 

1138
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,160
the sleep deprivation effect. 
I wouldn't do that over long 

1139
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,440
periods of time. 
But yeah, the data on creatine 

1140
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:55,400
are great. 
It works. 

1141
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,120
I, I do a washout every few 
months where I like right now, I

1142
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,040
just stopped taking it and you 
urinate out a lot of water and 

1143
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,960
it's kind of fun to see how 
strong you are without the 

1144
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:04,960
creatine and then get back on it
kind of build. 

1145
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,440
It's, it's a psychological 
thing. 

1146
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,520
You get kind of build back. 
It's but you'd be surprised how 

1147
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,520
much of what what you earned on 
creatine in terms of strength. 

1148
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,040
You, you keep even off creatine.
In any case, everyone's crazy 

1149
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:20,240
about creatine right now, right?
It took forever for that to hit.

1150
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,280
You know, first it was vitamin 
D3, now it seems to be creatine.

1151
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,280
I think magnesium's our next 
because turns out I just had an 

1152
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,880
expert chair of autoliology from
Stanford come on and say, you 

1153
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,240
know, taking magnesium before 
sleep or just once a day can 

1154
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:35,480
offset hearing loss. 
We know hearing loss is related 

1155
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,160
to dementia. 
You know, just a standard dose 

1156
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,720
of mag three in eight or mag bis
glycinate is, you know, protects

1157
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:44,760
hearing for understood reasons. 
But you're not going to hear 

1158
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,520
that right? 
You're going to hear we can go 

1159
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,000
dig up the mouse papers, but 
there won't be a clinical trial 

1160
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,720
on humans for treatment of 
tinnitus or anything with 

1161
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,880
magnesium. 
And also go out there and say, 

1162
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,000
Hey, people should take 
magnesium. 

1163
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,240
And then I get a bunch of MD's 
going like, oh, you're a 

1164
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,440
supplement, chill. 
And I'm like, all right, well, 

1165
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:02,720
let's see who as they are 
hearing, look at me and look at 

1166
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,440
you now. 
And in 10 years, like I hate to 

1167
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,320
do that because it's kind of a 
Dick thing to do, but I just go 

1168
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,240
all right, like I'm not the 
fastest or the strong, but I'm 

1169
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,200
feel like I'm doing really well.
My dad has always been very 

1170
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,600
moderate about drinking, careful
not to eat too much, not he's 

1171
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,160
not obsessive exercises, but not
too much focused on his sleep 

1172
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,600
work, consistent hours. 
My dad's 82 and he's firing on 8

1173
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:27,960
cylinders. 
It's incredible. 

1174
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,360
Like he's still going strong. 
He's got little things here and 

1175
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,880
there deals with him, you know, 
and it's I again, it's 

1176
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,720
cumulative. 
So for me, the, the FDA piece, I

1177
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,920
think you, you pointed out very,
very correctly, they're trying 

1178
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,680
to minimize side effect size. 
The I think the key with opting 

1179
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,520
in and informed consent is that 
people need to be aware of the 

1180
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,600
realistic risks. 
I'll give an example. 

1181
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:51,720
So I'm going to kind of push 
back on this, even though I 

1182
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:57,080
agree with you, which is stem 
cells, OK, stem cell therapies 

1183
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,280
were allowed in the United 
States. 

1184
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,520
They were sort of let allowed to
happen in kind of a duck to the 

1185
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,240
FDA radar. 
Stem cells sounds great, right? 

1186
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,480
Like you want cells that can 
become other cells to replace 

1187
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,240
connective tissue, brain and 
etcetera. 

1188
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,400
But you know, stem cells are a 
big part of the reasons why 

1189
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,480
tumors proliferate too. 
There was a company down in 

1190
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,080
Florida marketing stem cells for
macular degeneration and other 

1191
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,760
forms of blindness. 
People who were losing their 

1192
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,120
vision are concerned about that 
got injections of stem cells 

1193
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,720
into their eye and they went 
blind very quickly, which shut 

1194
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,560
down any advertising for stem 
cells on Google. 

1195
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,000
You can't just say I you have a 
stem cell company now it's kind 

1196
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,000
of merged with other things. 
It's kind of cryptic what it is.

1197
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,800
Look stem cells injected into 
your shoulder might be one thing

1198
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,320
or your knee. 
I know a very prominent 

1199
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,440
physician in the Wellness space 
who got an injection of stem 

1200
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,000
cells down in Mexico into his 
back kept up with his sauna 

1201
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:53,760
protocols. 
So it's unclear what actually 

1202
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,480
causes and ended up with an egg 
sized infection sepsis issue 

1203
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,760
that almost made him paralyzed. 
I know because the the repair 

1204
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:06,120
surgery was done in a clinic I'm
very familiar with by a very 

1205
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,400
qualified neurosurgeon and they 
said this guys super lucky. 

1206
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,000
Why are you and your friends 
you're, you know, messing around

1207
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,960
with stem cells? 
It's not FDA approved, et 

1208
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,840
cetera. 
So the informed consent has to 

1209
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,800
be done in a way that people 
understand that the realistic 

1210
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,640
risks, not just in a hey, sign 
this form with all the terrible 

1211
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:24,680
stuff that can happen. 
Tell me. 

1212
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:25,480
Tell me. 
Right. 

1213
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,200
I will accept a stem cell 
injection perhaps. 

1214
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,840
I've never had them, but into 
maybe into my shoulder or my 

1215
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,560
knee. 
I don't want it anywhere near my

1216
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,360
nervous system. 
I don't want it in the central 

1217
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,960
nervous system, not in my spinal
cord, not in my brain, not in my

1218
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,840
eye, thank you very much. 
It's just that that tissue is 

1219
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,480
too precious, impossible to 
replace, and the data just 

1220
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,680
aren't there. 
That said, I think there are a 

1221
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,080
lot of things like for instance,
people struggle with sleep. 

1222
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,760
I think even if you're already 
doing all the best things for 

1223
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,120
sleep, there's a an outsized 
benefit to getting a bit more 

1224
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,920
REM sleep each night. 
Sure, you can heat your bed, but

1225
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,320
turns out there's a peptide 
called pinealin which helps 

1226
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,320
regenerate the pinealocytes of 
the pineal gland, which secrets 

1227
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,080
melatonin. 
And you can pulse with pinealin 

1228
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,240
every third night or so and see 
dramatic improvements in REM 

1229
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,680
sleep consistently on every 
night. 

1230
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,720
Really impressive. 
Not FDA approved, but not banned

1231
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,400
either. 
I think as soon as people 

1232
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,800
realize how powerful Pinealin is
as a sleep aid, it's going to be

1233
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,160
not as big as Ozempic, but it's 
going to be headed in that 

1234
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,040
direction. 
OK, you can ask Brian, I 

1235
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:28,240
believe. 
I don't want to speak for him, 

1236
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,640
but I'm pretty sure we've had 
conversations where he's either 

1237
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,080
experimented with or uses pineal
and I don't know if he does 

1238
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,480
things like SS31A peptide to 
improve mitochondrial health. 

1239
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:38,320
Sure. 
Red light from the sun, red 

1240
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,240
light from a red light bed or a 
unit will improve mitochondrial 

1241
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,520
health. 
SS31 improves mitochondrial. 

1242
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,280
Is it safe? 
Well, we're still finding out, 

1243
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,240
seems to be pretty safe. 
These things will never get FDA 

1244
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,080
approval unless they become like
Ozempic where the effect size is

1245
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:56,760
huge and the market is huge. 
So I'm very excited about what 

1246
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,080
you're saying where there are 
going to be markets for things 

1247
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,160
that people are not aware of or 
it's being sold on Gray market 

1248
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,680
right now where it's not clear 
what you're getting. 

1249
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:09,800
And I think fortunately the 
current administration seems to 

1250
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:14,480
want peptides to be a semi 
regulated space as opposed to an

1251
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,320
unregulated space. 
But for peptides to be available

1252
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,280
because the pharma community 
would love to shut down the 

1253
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,080
peptide and compounding farm 
pharmacy industry. 

1254
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,760
Look, most people can get by 
taking 110th of the amount of of

1255
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,760
Ozempic or Ozempic like drug 
for, for reduction of body 

1256
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:33,480
weight with far fewer side 
effects. 

1257
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,480
But 110th means the drug 
companies are making 110th the 

1258
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,360
profit. 
So a lot of people are now going

1259
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,800
to compounding pharmacies for 
their Ozempic Monjaro and 

1260
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,080
similar and getting awesome 
effects, awesome effects. 

1261
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,880
I don't take it, I never have. 
But if I ever need to lose some 

1262
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,720
weight, I certainly will and 
I'll go that route. 

1263
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:56,120
So I, I think it's, it's very, I
would love to see a kind of a 

1264
01:01:56,120 --> 01:02:01,000
merge between better oversight 
of quality of products and 

1265
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,680
messaging around, more thorough 
messaging around those products 

1266
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,800
as opposed to just being kind of
the Wild West online. 

1267
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:07,320
You can go online and buy 
peptides. 

1268
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:12,120
There needs to be something in 
between strict FDA regulations 

1269
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,680
and just kind of Wild West Gray 
market. 

1270
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,160
We really need that. 
And I don't know if that could 

1271
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,160
be established in Singapore, if 
it could be established 

1272
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,360
elsewhere, but I think the 
current administration in the 

1273
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,680
United States has made room for 
that, is going to continue to 

1274
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:26,920
make room for that the same way 
we have for supplements. 

1275
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,200
They're not unregulated. 
You have NSF, you know, tested 

1276
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,400
for sport. 
There are regulations and 

1277
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,200
guidelines that allow people to 
make better informed choices. 

1278
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:36,400
We all know what those brands 
are. 

1279
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,280
They're they're like 5 or 6 big 
brands and supplementation you 

1280
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,240
can trust. 
OK, This is third party tested 

1281
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:45,720
NSF certified for sport. 
If you're a state, if you're a 

1282
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,680
mom or a dad or a whatever, an 
academic or a programmer, you're

1283
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,320
an AI founder. 
You feel better taking something

1284
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,720
that has a few of those stamps, 
period. 

1285
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,120
So. 
I I agree with a lot of that. 

1286
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,000
I want to give a slight push 
back on the push back and then 

1287
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:01,920
just get, you know, OK. 
Yeah. 

1288
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:08,000
So my view is no plane crashes, 
no planes, no train crashes, no 

1289
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,800
trains, right? 
Like that, say if somebody 

1290
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,880
wasn't first on, let's say, an 
open heart surgery or a brain 

1291
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,200
transplant, we'd never know that
those things worked. 

1292
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,320
And, you know, like somebody 
might be OK, but they're kind of

1293
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,760
failing and they take the risk 
of literally dying to get a 

1294
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:26,760
heart transplant, and then 
they're better, right? 

1295
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,480
So they take extreme downside 
risk for upside potentially, 

1296
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,520
right. 
And so I agree with you on the 

1297
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,600
disclosure and on the 
information there. 

1298
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,200
There's ways you can do it with 
registries and so on and so 

1299
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,800
forth potentially, right talk to
previous patients and and so on.

1300
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,960
There's two other things that 
can be done more than two, but 

1301
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:51,040
at least 2. 
So one of them is, you know, 

1302
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,000
farm GKB, Russ Altman's. 
I've heard of it, but I'm not 

1303
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,560
familiar with the details. 
OK. 

1304
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,480
So farm GKB is because you're on
you're maybe more on the neuro 

1305
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,960
side of things and I'm more on 
the diagnostics like genomic 

1306
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,840
side of things, right, so far, I
mean obviously we know a little 

1307
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:07,680
bit of both, but that's just 
kind of my background. 

1308
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,000
So farm GKB has been around for 
more than 20 years and it's a 

1309
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:17,000
database of all kinds of genetic
slash drug interactions, right. 

1310
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:22,520
So if I have VKR C1 variance and
Cy P2A9, then what is my 

1311
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,880
warfarin response, right? 
And how does it relate to like 

1312
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:27,520
vitamin K intake and so and so 
forth? 

1313
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,920
And sometimes you could have a 
little old lady that needs a 

1314
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,920
huge warfarin dose and a big 
football player that you know, 

1315
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:34,520
bleeds out from a much smaller 
dose. 

1316
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,280
And you don't know that until 
you know the genetics of it. 

1317
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,280
So in theory, before you take 
some of these treatments, if 

1318
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,760
everybody had their personal 
genome, we could partially 

1319
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,440
forecast the result of that 
treatment for a large number of 

1320
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,000
treatments, right? 
And then a whole body MRI, for 

1321
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,800
instance, something that gets 
knocked a lot. 

1322
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,440
I think it's fantastic not just 
as a, you know, tumor detection 

1323
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,000
tool, but as something like a 
structural detection tool and 

1324
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,720
understanding where people 
could, could benefit, where 

1325
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,840
people might truly be at risk. 
I think absolutely, absolutely. 

1326
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,520
And have you, have you heard? 
You may have heard like 

1327
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,520
organoids. 
Yeah, I had Sergio Pasca on the 

1328
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:12,640
podcast recently. 
He's one of the leaders in that 

1329
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:14,240
space. 
OK, great. 

1330
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:15,680
From Stanford. 
Yeah, we were post docs 

1331
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:20,160
together, building assembloids 
and organoids to test neurons 

1332
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,200
and other responses in a dish, 
basically. 

1333
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,920
That's right. 
So in theory, you could have a 

1334
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:30,360
patient derived organoid that is
mini Huberman in a Petri dish or

1335
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:34,440
mini biology in a Petri dish. 
And then I could, you know, it's

1336
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,880
amazing how much that cell 
culture will sort of predict 

1337
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,160
about your own physiological 
response. 

1338
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,440
But it's only the thing in the 
Petri dish that is taking the 

1339
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:46,360
hit like an allergic response. 
It's not 100% of course, but 

1340
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,440
it's like a proxy for you in the
same way that like the 

1341
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,520
pharmacogenomic lookup is like a
proxy before your main body 

1342
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:53,840
takes it. 
Just like you're saying, 

1343
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,480
injected in my knee, injected in
my arm, but not like the main 

1344
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,680
stuff, right? 
Like, so this is less precious 

1345
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,200
tissue that can kind of, you 
know, be a proxy for yourself, 

1346
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:03,960
the organoid before it goes 
into. 

1347
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:06,680
I love that. 
I'll tell you, you know, I mean,

1348
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,640
if you it may, it brought to 
mind a kind of a chuckle in my 

1349
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,840
head where, you know, it's so 
crazy if someone goes in for an 

1350
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,560
allergen test, right? 
They like rub the, the thing on 

1351
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,120
them. 
It's like, I mean, it's, it's 

1352
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,440
OK, it's low level, but it's 
it's kind of tedious and it 

1353
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:22,040
doesn't allow you to implement 
over time. 

1354
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,840
Like if some new allergen comes 
on or some new detection test, 

1355
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,280
you want all that run, you don't
want to go in. 

1356
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,200
I mean, we're finally getting to
the point where you don't have 

1357
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,080
to like go to an office quite as
much. 

1358
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,120
People, you know, they remote 
phlebotomist. 

1359
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,440
I wonder what your thoughts are 
and why this space tends to 

1360
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,120
stumble and stagger along for so
long. 

1361
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:44,400
And then like we get these 
so-called breakthroughs, right? 

1362
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,080
I mean, Ozempic, Monjaro, the 
GLP peptides have been known 

1363
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,400
about for a very long time. 
We're in the niche communities 

1364
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,400
of bodybuilding and fitness and 
all that. 

1365
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,800
And then it broke through. 
There are other things. 

1366
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,880
I think Pinealin is going to be 
very important. 

1367
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,200
I think for people who want to 
increase testosterone, rather 

1368
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,920
than taking testosterone, people
will be taking thing peptides 

1369
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,720
like Gunadarellin, which support
the hypothalamic pituitary 

1370
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:10,920
access more generally don't shut
down hormone production. 

1371
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:15,720
I mean, it's just wild how we 
feel like the kit is basically, 

1372
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,800
you know, like pharmaceuticals 
which don't give you much 

1373
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,440
control over in space and time, 
but existing pharmaceuticals are

1374
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,000
they'll get you someplace. 
I think of this kind of like my 

1375
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,880
buddy Peter Attia, right? 
He because he's comes from 

1376
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,280
medicine and he was trained at 
Stanford. 

1377
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,960
Like he has more of a, he'll use
some supplements and talk about 

1378
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,080
them a little bit. 
He's really a behaviors and 

1379
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,560
drugs guy, right? 
Like if you really like, if you 

1380
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:43,760
look away, say like, yeah, it's 
just his training is in 

1381
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,600
prescription drugs. 
He always says, you know, it's 

1382
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,040
been tested BPC 157 for, for 
joints and recovery. 

1383
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,280
Anyone that's taken it either 
got a very strong placebo effect

1384
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,120
or can just tell you somehow it 
works. 

1385
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:55,360
Maybe it's placebo, maybe it's 
not. 

1386
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,720
But Peter is like, I don't know,
I don't know about BBC 157. 

1387
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,720
It's not FDA, like there's no 
trials on it. 

1388
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:03,520
I feel comfortable taking it, 
trying it. 

1389
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,720
So how do we bridge this space 
so that it becomes formalized? 

1390
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,360
Because I, I think that there's 
a huge opportunity here, but 

1391
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,320
someone's got to take it and run
with it. 

1392
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,320
And I don't know anyone that's 
like the, that's really doing 

1393
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:16,640
that in. 
And I what's that? 

1394
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,640
OK, say what you're going. 
To say and I'll say something. 

1395
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,840
Yeah, I mean, I like to see when
people build structures. 

1396
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:27,439
So I not to go off on too long 
of a riff here, but you know, I 

1397
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,840
started talking about health 
practices during the pandemic. 

1398
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:31,920
Then I started my podcast and I 
was like, but there's a lot of 

1399
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,279
information you can glean from 
science that can you can use to 

1400
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:36,160
benefit yourself. 
But. 

1401
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,840
And I'm writing this book, 
they'll be out next year, not 

1402
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,279
this September, but next 
September because I want to 

1403
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:45,120
formalize that into the the 
protocols. 

1404
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:50,479
But I have to say, like what 
Brian was doing with Blueprint 

1405
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,680
or what people are doing with 
function health or what or what 

1406
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,359
Peter Attia is starting to do in
these different people are 

1407
01:08:56,359 --> 01:08:59,880
trying to bring it together 
under single platforms so that 

1408
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,600
you don't have to do so much. 
People don't have to do so much 

1409
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:04,760
work running around trying to 
figure out what to do. 

1410
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:11,600
But it's still very piece meal. 
It feels to me like there should

1411
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,760
be a go front gate where you go 
in, they take blood, they take a

1412
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,200
skin sample, they build an 
organoid, you get a couple 

1413
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,960
devices and then you just live 
life for a little while. 

1414
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,240
You get feedback update, live 
life update. 

1415
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:31,000
You know, I, I don't think we're
even close to there because. 

1416
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,080
We could get there. 
We absolutely could get there. 

1417
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,800
And I just want to know what's 
the next step when, let's say 

1418
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,680
the next six months, 12 months 
year to get to that platform 

1419
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:42,439
because I'm excited about what 
you're saying. 

1420
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,760
But I agree that we're just 
going to go adrift as a as a 

1421
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,000
health field. 
OK, so here is what I propose. 

1422
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,720
So first is we write the spec 
for like literally it. 

1423
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:58,440
Let's say it's an AI prompt, OK,
For everything that the ideal 

1424
01:09:58,440 --> 01:10:00,840
human health zone would have. 
So let me just enumerate some of

1425
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,440
the things you mentioned. 
There's the patches, there's the

1426
01:10:03,440 --> 01:10:08,000
glasses, there's the opening of 
the curtains and the cortisol 

1427
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,320
spike in the morning, cold 
water, workout and then shut 

1428
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,120
down dark nights at night. 
There's also the diet. 

1429
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:17,960
It's not hamburgers and stuff 
like that. 

1430
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:20,840
It's, you know, like like 
healthier foods. 

1431
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:27,480
There is the other kinds of 
devices, whether it's like, you 

1432
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:30,840
know, watches for like fit, you 
know, like like step tracking. 

1433
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,520
And so there's a zillion 
quantified self gizmos. 

1434
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:39,200
There's peptides like Manjaro 
and the GLPS, there's 

1435
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,880
supplements, so there's 
creatine, vitamin D, magnesium. 

1436
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:49,120
There's there's a bunch of other
stuff that we mentioned, but 

1437
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,040
that that covers that covers 
several pieces. 

1438
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,040
Of that right and goal directed 
and the psychology piece would 

1439
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:58,120
be sort of where where people 
would identify one or two pain 

1440
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:01,440
points either work focus pain 
points, relational pain points 

1441
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,160
and you'd have real experts that
could handle that quickly. 

1442
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,600
I mean, there's a whole 
conversation to be had about the

1443
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,280
kind of the, the psychedelic 
space like, you know, which 

1444
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,560
either seems to rescue 
entrepreneurs and founders or 

1445
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,160
collapse. 
Them or yeah, collapse. 

1446
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:15,880
Them yeah, collapse. 
Them you have to acknowledge one

1447
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,040
shot you can do too much. 
Too many psychedelics, and for 

1448
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:22,400
some people, too many 
psychedelics, means one journey.

1449
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 
It's a hybrid and some people 

1450
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,240
benefit from them tremendously. 
You know, on the podcast today 

1451
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:29,080
I've that's. 
That's where the. 

1452
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:32,880
Yeah, sorry, it was the 
consciousness guy. 

1453
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,680
And he talks about his 
experiences on DMT fundamentally

1454
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,920
shifting how he thinks about 
consciousness and evolving his 

1455
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,040
work. 
But he's the guy who did it once

1456
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,200
and is still thinking about that
five years later and updating 

1457
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:45,840
his research. 
I mean, Christophe is one of the

1458
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,960
leaders in the research on 
consciousness for over 30 years.

1459
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,560
Yeah, I've seen a lot of people 
collapse themselves with 

1460
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,120
psychedelics, so I'm not 
suggesting that. 

1461
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,400
But where people have pain 
points and hang ups and 

1462
01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:00,400
psychological hang ups, they 
need to not have to go to a 

1463
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,640
retreat and be able to work on 
that. 

1464
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,880
I mean, I think that that would 
be integrated into the space as 

1465
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:09,680
well. 
Yes. 

1466
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,920
So by the pharmacogenomic point 
could be helpful there as well, 

1467
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,400
because you might be able to 
predict which people would have 

1468
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:17,720
a bad reaction versus which 
could tolerate it for 

1469
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:18,920
psychologist for all kinds of 
things. 

1470
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:24,000
But so so my thought is here's 
here's a possible line of 

1471
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,120
attack. 
A let's figure out what the 

1472
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,160
ideal is like the magic wand 
kind of thing, right? 

1473
01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:33,040
You have, you know, you've been 
elected president of this 

1474
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:36,600
network state, OK, in a tech, 
what I call a techno democratic 

1475
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,920
election, meaning you have on 
chain votes that are recorded. 

1476
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:41,760
So you have 1010 thousand people
they've recorded. 

1477
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:43,040
You have authority to do OK, 
fine. 

1478
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:46,800
So you can or, or you just 
building community from scratch.

1479
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,520
You look at real estate 
development or some combination.

1480
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,400
All right, so you've laid out 
everything and So what does it 

1481
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,160
look like? 
And so service, we have all 

1482
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:58,120
that. 
Then we make a video like a just

1483
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,000
a short of what a day in the 
life looks like. 

1484
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:06,000
And we pause and freeze frame. 
And when you see a patch kind of

1485
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,480
thing, for example, on someone's
neck or below someone's shirt, 

1486
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,640
we pause and we show citation, 
citation, citation, citation, 

1487
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:14,600
citation, citation. 
Because you and I both, you 

1488
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,640
know, it's, it's a, it's hard 
sci-fi. 

1489
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,320
This is not impossible stuff. 
It's just system integration of 

1490
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:22,120
things where in many cases you 
point out they've been around 

1491
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:23,480
for some time. 
Creatine's been around for some 

1492
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:25,440
time. 
Obviously the GLPS have been 

1493
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:27,720
around for some time. 
The patches more than 10 years 

1494
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,120
ago, I had seen the non invasive
patches and it's just kind of 

1495
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,120
being hard to get them out into 
the public for various 

1496
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,680
regulatory reasons. 
So we take all this stuff, you 

1497
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,960
know, for example, there's 
treatments to reverse aging in 

1498
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:41,280
mice that, you know, there's, 
there's amazing phenotypes where

1499
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:45,040
like you've got old bald, you 
know, mice over here and then 

1500
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,920
like a sleek mouse and they're 
both 2 years old. 

1501
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,360
And, and you know, there's 
cancer drugs that show like 

1502
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:51,760
reversing graying of hair, 
right? 

1503
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:57,040
So we, we take all, we freeze 
frame and we show sight, sight, 

1504
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,480
sight, sight, sight like pops 
out, you know, like this, right?

1505
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:01,440
So it's like suspension 
disbelief. 

1506
01:14:01,440 --> 01:14:06,640
Then like the movie kind of 
continues and then we basically 

1507
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:11,920
have something which says to a 
regulator in the UAE, in lots of

1508
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,480
small countries, By the way, 
this is the secret, I think, to 

1509
01:14:15,480 --> 01:14:18,200
the thesis. 
Antithesis, synthesis, OK, FDA 

1510
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,960
holds back a lot of things, but 
the antithesis is you want some 

1511
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,080
form of regulation, some form of
quality control, right? 

1512
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:30,920
The synthesis I think is lots of
small sovereigns which are still

1513
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:35,640
States and legitimately can 
enforce rules, could set up 

1514
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:39,080
their own biotech free zones and
have people like you or Peter 

1515
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:44,120
Tia or Brian Johnson, plus 
traditional MD's or what have 

1516
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,680
you as a panel, as you were 
mentioning earlier, that just 

1517
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,000
reviews stuff for that 
sovereign. 

1518
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,000
And then they have a trade off 
between, OK, maybe they'll get 

1519
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:55,720
some Flack, but maybe this is a 
really promising new treatment. 

1520
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:58,760
Maybe it's like like stool 
transplants for example. 

1521
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:02,720
Sound weird but they are good. 
Oh, the data are really 

1522
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:06,840
impressive, as are, you know, 
transfusions of young to old 

1523
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:08,360
blood. 
Parabiosis. 

1524
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:12,200
Oh, a former postdoc of mine 
went to go work for my my 

1525
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,160
colleague Tony Weiss, Corey's 
company, which was Tony, was the

1526
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,320
first person to, you know, talk 
about transfusions, you know, 

1527
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,840
the baby blood stuff and 
parabiosing animals. 

1528
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:23,240
And it's remarkable. 
They're now looking at this for 

1529
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:27,120
improvement of vision, you know,
reversing blinding diseases. 

1530
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:29,840
I mean, the data are still 
incoming, but it's spectacular. 

1531
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,520
What what it the the mouse data 
are spectacular. 

1532
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:39,240
The human data are promising and
you know, it's it's I love this.

1533
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:42,600
I mean, I if, if you tell me how
to implement this, I'm game, 

1534
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,720
right, I'm all right. 
I think you're going to tell me 

1535
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:48,240
that this is going to be linked 
to, to the crypto community, 

1536
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:50,600
right at some level? 
Here's why. 

1537
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:53,520
Here's why. 
The reason is crypto is risk 

1538
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:57,640
capital, but there's billions 
and billions and billions of 

1539
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:59,680
dollars in crypto. 
I mean, I think there's a deep 

1540
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:03,800
similarity here, which is it is,
I've heard of Desai Des. 

1541
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:07,400
Yeah, right. 
So that's like crypto funding 

1542
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:09,240
science outside the system, 
right? 

1543
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:14,920
So it's like still technical 
people, but they're willing to 

1544
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:20,520
go and add up all the numbers 
outside the academic masthead, 

1545
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,760
for example. 
And just like crypto has built 

1546
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:27,520
billions, trillions of dollars 
of value outside Wall Street, 

1547
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:29,920
right? 
In a way that's open to 

1548
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,280
everyone, not just those people 
in I mean, it's still something 

1549
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:35,360
which impresses the best people 
on Wall Street, especially 

1550
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:37,880
today. 
So similarly with Desai, you 

1551
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,360
know, a few things that I think 
are coming, but like the crypto 

1552
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:45,800
plus science movement, one is 
turning people from patients 

1553
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:48,000
into active participants in 
their own health. 

1554
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:50,120
They're not just like, Amen to 
that. 

1555
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,280
I absolutely love that. 
I mean, the, the, you know, 

1556
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:56,840
hospitals are depressing places,
even for the physicians that 

1557
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,360
work there. 
I mean, it's just like there's 

1558
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,440
some beautiful hospitals like 
Stanford has built this 

1559
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:04,520
incredible hospital. 
Actually, Mark and and Laura. 

1560
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,480
The. 
The emergency Children's 

1561
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:10,000
Hospital, right? 
They, they created that. 

1562
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:14,280
I mean, they made that possible.
Beautiful hospitals exist, but 

1563
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,240
no one, no one wants to go to a 
hospital. 

1564
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:19,840
People care about their health 
and there's nothing in between. 

1565
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:23,480
And this is sounding kind of, 
you know, cliche nowadays, but 

1566
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:28,640
to say it, but between, you 
know, sickness care and and not 

1567
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,280
seeing your doctor, there's not 
a lot of pro health care. 

1568
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:35,920
And you get those silly posters 
like, you know, here are the 

1569
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:38,000
food groups and like, here's how
do you move? 

1570
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,920
Like none of that stuff works. 
That's none of it works. 

1571
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:42,880
Exactly it will that's the 
thing. 

1572
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,680
That's why I like what you and I
mean in a sense, you know, 10 

1573
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,480
years ago I remember realizing 
that fitness and beauty were the

1574
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:54,840
back door to health and and 
medicine. 

1575
01:17:54,840 --> 01:18:00,520
And the reason is people will 
actually pay cash out of pocket 

1576
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,120
for fitness and beauty to get 
better. 

1577
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:09,680
And then in that you can sneak 
in all of the medical and health

1578
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:14,040
lessons and so on to like 
improve from their baseline as 

1579
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,560
opposed to waiting till 
something is broke and then 

1580
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,920
fixing it, which is the 
traditional medical system. 

1581
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:22,600
And it does very little for you 
after, you know, like like 

1582
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,320
something. 
I mean it can maybe get you back

1583
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:26,160
to normal but then has no 
interest in making you better 

1584
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:27,120
than normal. 
Right. 

1585
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:29,960
Well, have you noticed that the 
if you look historically like 

1586
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:34,040
there are these three main very 
disparate communities from which

1587
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:38,000
every new health technology 
besides standard drug discovery?

1588
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:41,360
Let me guess, bro science? 
OK, what are the other ones that

1589
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:42,920
you guessed Let's? 
Was that one of them? 

1590
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:46,120
Yeah, well, yeah, I was going to
say, you know, no one wants to 

1591
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:50,240
admit this, but it's like 
bodybuilding, plastic, plastic 

1592
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:55,520
surgery and and academic 
science. 

1593
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,160
Those 3 communities couldn't be 
more different from one another,

1594
01:18:59,440 --> 01:19:01,800
right? 
And yet the bodybuilders learn 

1595
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,960
to use nutrition and hormone 
augmentation and training, let's

1596
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:09,240
say training nutrition and 
augmentation, right? 

1597
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:10,800
And they took it to the 
extremes. 

1598
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:15,320
But then and then the aesthetic,
whatever community, Korea, My 

1599
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,680
goal is to be the last person in
Los Angeles, where I currently 

1600
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:19,320
live now that hasn't gotten 
Botox or anything. 

1601
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:21,880
I'm, I'm graying and like I, I 
chose to not do that. 

1602
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:23,000
I don't. 
Just you're you're a 

1603
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:26,440
distinguished Gray, I think. 
I don't, you know, I just sort 

1604
01:19:26,440 --> 01:19:29,680
of, I don't dye my hair. 
I just decided, you know, to see

1605
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,760
what you know, I can't say I 
never will embrace that 

1606
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,920
community, but I have a friend, 
Jason Diamond, who's like, he's 

1607
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:38,640
one of the like premier plastic 
surgeons. 

1608
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,760
And, and, and it's interesting 
because that community is, does 

1609
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,280
all this stuff of like moving 
fat from here to there and a 

1610
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:47,200
little bit of this and a little 
bit of the nip tuck thing, as 

1611
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:49,360
they say. 
And then the academic community 

1612
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:54,320
is a is embraces real mechanisms
and discovery. 

1613
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,840
But I had to see a lot of my 
colleagues get sick and some die

1614
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:00,400
and many look getting what we 
call the tenured look where 

1615
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:01,560
they're like five years after 
they start. 

1616
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:02,680
You're like, what happened to 
you? 

1617
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:05,720
A lot of founders experience 
this too, because it's intense. 

1618
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,560
But in all kidding aside, the 
people in the sleep. 

1619
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,480
Science community at Stanford 
were the ones that back in the 

1620
01:20:12,480 --> 01:20:15,640
midnight, I would like demand. 
And the guy named Emmanuel 

1621
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,320
Mignon, who discovered the genes
and mechanisms of narcolepsy. 

1622
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,640
Every day, the laboratory would 
migrate outside to get sunlight 

1623
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:25,640
before going back in for the 
late latter half of the day's 

1624
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:26,680
work. 
And I was like, what are you 

1625
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:27,560
doing? 
He's like, you're setting your 

1626
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,200
circadian rhythm. 
This will give you energy the 

1627
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,840
next morning. 
And this is an MDPHD. 

1628
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:33,920
He was a Howard Hughes 
investigator at one point. 

1629
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:35,560
I'm thinking like, these are 
interest. 

1630
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:39,000
These are smart people, right? 
And I'm like, why don't we know 

1631
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:40,480
this stuff? 
He's like, oh, all the data are 

1632
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,920
in mice. 
You can't get people to do this 

1633
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:46,040
stuff consistently. 
And I thought, this is crazy. 

1634
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:47,920
These are some of the most 
powerful mechanisms. 

1635
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:50,480
Circadian biology is one of the 
most powerful aspects to our 

1636
01:20:50,480 --> 01:20:52,320
daily living. 
No one escapes circadian 

1637
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:54,320
biology. 
It shapes our health. 

1638
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,240
It shapes our illness, and we 
can work with it. 

1639
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,240
And I thought to myself, gosh, 
somebody needs to bridge these 

1640
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,240
things. 
I always enjoyed resistance 

1641
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:04,280
training and running. 
I'd like to run. 

1642
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:06,920
I'm not a great runner, but I'm 
an avid runner, as they say. 

1643
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:10,280
And, and so I realized that what
we're trying to do and what the 

1644
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,360
podcast community is trying to 
do, what a Tia's trying to do, 

1645
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,480
what I'm trying to do, what Matt
Walker's trying to do, what 

1646
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:16,040
Brian's doing. 
And clearly what you're trying 

1647
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:23,640
to do is create this 4th 
category that respects the, the 

1648
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:27,080
view that some of that stuff is 
pretty extreme, but that it's 

1649
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:29,360
not very, you can't implement 
it. 

1650
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:31,320
Like bodybuilding is not 
applicable to most people, but 

1651
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:34,840
certain pieces of it are. 
Extreme endurance training 

1652
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:36,200
isn't, but certain pieces of it 
are. 

1653
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,200
The aesthetic thing is, is not, 
but certain pieces are. 

1654
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:43,880
And academic science is 
applicable, not all of it, but 

1655
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:45,560
certain pieces are. 
And that's where I was like, OK,

1656
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:47,960
I bridge two of these three 
silos. 

1657
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:50,000
I'm going to get out there and 
start messaging about it. 

1658
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:54,360
And I love the idea of, of 
establishing a community. 

1659
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,200
Here's my one concern that I I 
would love for you to explain 

1660
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:01,080
how we get our heads around. 
The moment you get a person in 

1661
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:04,880
charge of a community, they're 
called a guru or a cult leader. 

1662
01:22:05,480 --> 01:22:07,760
Unless they're president. 
So I've got actually go ahead 

1663
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:08,760
finished your saying and I've. 
Got yeah. 

1664
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,160
And so, you know, I'm only half 
kidding here, but you know, like

1665
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:14,840
sometimes the messaging can get 
contorted from the outside in a 

1666
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,960
way that's very that pulls the 
thing down from below. 

1667
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:19,240
I'm not sure what what people 
say. 

1668
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,120
I'm worried about people not 
receiving the critical messaging

1669
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:25,240
or having the opportunity to 
implement this stuff because the

1670
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,840
moment it's under the rubric of 
of someone's name, typically it 

1671
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,240
becomes we get these like cult 
images, right? 

1672
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:33,520
Totally, totally, totally. 
So I've got I've got a few 

1673
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,440
thoughts on that. 
So first is the same technology 

1674
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:41,440
that you can use to send one 
Bitcoin on chain, you can 

1675
01:22:41,440 --> 01:22:45,360
actually use to record one vote.
It's like a, it's like a the 

1676
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:49,400
debit and credit and in such a 
way that it's cryptographically 

1677
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:53,280
provable that they made the 
vote, who did it when they did 

1678
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,680
it, which wallet they did it 
from, who they voted for and so 

1679
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:58,320
on and so forth. 
Basically you can, I can get 

1680
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:00,360
into details, but a high level 
you can see how that's true, 

1681
01:23:00,480 --> 01:23:01,320
right? 
Cool. 

1682
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:06,320
So what we can do is we can 
actually have binding on chain 

1683
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,560
plebiscites in the same way we 
have binding on chain 

1684
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:13,000
transactions. 
And the amazing thing about 

1685
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:17,160
cryptocurrency is it transacts 
across borders like that, Say a 

1686
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:22,960
Japanese person can pay a 
Brazilian who can pay a 

1687
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:24,600
Frenchman and so on and so 
forth. 

1688
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,320
And that just works. 
It's all Internet. 

1689
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:28,720
And the fact that they have 
three different national 

1690
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:32,280
currencies doesn't matter with 
techno democracy. 

1691
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,320
And I can, I can share that 
video with you afterwards. 

1692
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:37,880
We extend that so that you can 
now basically hold an election, 

1693
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:42,360
a genuine election on chain and 
a Japanese person or Brazilian 

1694
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:46,200
and a Frenchman can all vote for
you as Andrew Huberman, 

1695
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:51,760
president of a startup society. 
And that vote is what I call the

1696
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,640
social smart contract. 
They're literally signing a 

1697
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:56,960
smart contract that is also a 
social contract. 

1698
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:00,840
And it says you're basically 
collecting a thumbs up from a 

1699
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:03,600
bunch of crypto wallets. 
But a crypto wallet is a much 

1700
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:05,720
more powerful thing than people 
realize because today it's 

1701
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:11,320
upstream of like funds and you 
know, like your like money and 

1702
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:14,680
messaging like it's upstream of 
like access to a discord or to A

1703
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:16,880
to a crypto wallet, which is 
money that's real. 

1704
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:22,560
But tomorrow it's upstream of 
drones or, or doors like like 

1705
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:24,920
crypto wallets can open doors 
like because they're keys, they 

1706
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:27,760
can turn locks, they can turn on
machines, they can turn on 

1707
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:30,760
sequencing devices, they can 
unlock data stores. 

1708
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:32,240
Crypto wallets can do a lot of 
things. 

1709
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:34,880
They're basically just very 
powerful data structures, right?

1710
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:39,200
And so if you have hundreds or 
thousands or millions of crypto 

1711
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,600
wallets that are all voting for 
something that's like the 

1712
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:46,160
formation of a digital state, it
is crowdfunding basically, 

1713
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:47,560
right? 
You can do a lot with that. 

1714
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,160
It's a very, very general 
concept. 

1715
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,800
And the formation of it can be 
shown to be a million consensual

1716
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:57,640
actions uncoerced of people's 
own free will, right? 

1717
01:24:57,840 --> 01:24:59,880
It's like a streaming vote 
because they can all come in one

1718
01:24:59,880 --> 01:25:02,400
at a time, and you can build up 
that following over time, right?

1719
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:04,880
OK. 
So because of that, that's a 

1720
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:08,600
mechanism to come president 
legitimately president of a 

1721
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:12,880
network state because you're 
actually winning a vote of their

1722
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:17,280
own free will there, right. 
And so we take the same concepts

1723
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,600
of democracy, just like, you 
know, sort of the Internet 

1724
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:22,040
reclaimed free speech, you know,
is in touch and go and they 

1725
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:23,840
pulled it, kind of pulled it 
back and we kind of reclaimed 

1726
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,200
free speech. 
We can reclaim democracy. 

1727
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:27,680
So that's one big piece. 
OK. 

1728
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:31,760
And the second piece is I agree 
with you. 

1729
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:33,520
Like, you know, one of the 
things about network state 

1730
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:39,120
startup societies is you want to
be minimal necessary individual.

1731
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:43,600
So you you publish a blueprint. 
And I know Brian has actually 

1732
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,760
used the term blueprint, right? 
So call it blueprint in the 

1733
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:50,920
small B sense. 
OK, you publish A blueprint and 

1734
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:52,920
you're just doing the first one 
to show that it works. 

1735
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,200
You're doing a template and you 
publish a template. 

1736
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:58,240
Why? 
Because I know and you know, we 

1737
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:01,360
don't have all the answers and 
then let other people copy and 

1738
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,000
fork it just like an open source
kind of blueprint. 

1739
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:06,000
We actually have the 
architectural diagrams there and

1740
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,440
the, you know, all the kind of 
stuff, right? 

1741
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:11,680
So I think that is my answer to 
obviating or, or addressing 

1742
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:15,160
those two correct points that 
you mentioned, which are A, we 

1743
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:18,200
have legitimacy because it's 
provable and B, we have 

1744
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:20,480
decentralization. 
So it's not personal. 

1745
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:21,840
Great. 
I love it. 

1746
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:26,600
It helps me envision a number of
ways that we could try and scale

1747
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,240
the protocols as we refer to 
them. 

1748
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:33,400
Yes, because that's ultimately 
what I want to do. 

1749
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:36,880
You know, is we're half kidding.
You know, I decided to write a 

1750
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:40,160
book called Protocols, right, a 
user manual for the human brain 

1751
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:42,720
and body, and was going to 
release it this month and then 

1752
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:44,960
decided, well, I want to put 
illustration so that people can 

1753
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:46,560
really put this stuff into a 
framework. 

1754
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:49,480
Visuals make a big, but if you 
think about how clunky, I know 

1755
01:26:49,480 --> 01:26:52,200
it's so clunky, it's so old 
school when you really think 

1756
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:56,600
about the approach. 
And yet books and podcasts and 

1757
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:00,160
social media are largely the the
best tools that we have at this 

1758
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:02,920
point. 
Traditional media has a partial 

1759
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:05,000
but diminishing role in this, 
right? 

1760
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,200
Although I will say it's kind of
interesting. 

1761
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:08,680
I went on Bill Maher a few weeks
ago. 

1762
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,400
We had discussion about public 
health and health practices, 

1763
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:16,000
alcohol, sunlight, etcetera. 
And it's interesting to see some

1764
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:19,320
of these media channels that I 
think bills kind of sits 

1765
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,680
somewhere in the middle between 
extreme right and extreme left, 

1766
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:25,840
basically right. 
I mean, folks, the Democrats and

1767
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,760
Republicans and you know, the 
the surge in in new in new 

1768
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,200
audience from that was 
tremendous. 

1769
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:34,640
And so I think there's AI 
anticipate at least in the next 

1770
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:40,520
24 months, a growing role for 
new forms of traditional media, 

1771
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,680
if you will, people who are not 
like not CNN, New York Times 

1772
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:48,760
versus Fox, right, but things in
between, even if they're linked 

1773
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:50,920
to some of those networks. 
Maybe the new? 

1774
01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:55,200
Barry Weiss maybe the the Free 
Press is a great example of 

1775
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:56,600
that. 
I think we're going to see more 

1776
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,000
of that. 
And yet if you OK, so if you add

1777
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,800
that in plus books, plus 
podcasts, plus social media, 

1778
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:06,280
that the integrated 
implementation of all of this 

1779
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,040
requires what you're describing.
So I'm super excited about. 

1780
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:11,080
Yeah. 
So I'm super excited about what 

1781
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:12,280
I'm hearing. 
I'm learning during this 

1782
01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:14,600
podcast, which is awesome. 
You got it. 

1783
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:18,800
And just exactly, so we have all
of these Internet innovations 

1784
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:22,040
and we want to package them 
together in the physical world. 

1785
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:25,360
And so you just need like a 
relatively small piece of real 

1786
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:29,480
estate to actually do that and a
bunch of people who will opt in.

1787
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,640
So for example, you know, my 
friends at Coinbase just set up 

1788
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:36,040
something they call Basecamp, 
which is a pop up, like a pop up

1789
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,440
village where you can use 
Coinbase technologies to pay and

1790
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:41,000
do contracts and stuff like. 
That good? 

1791
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:43,400
I purchased Bitcoin on Coinbase 
this morning. 

1792
01:28:44,160 --> 01:28:45,000
Great. 
OK. 

1793
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:47,600
That's the only place where I 
purchased my crypto so. 

1794
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:51,160
OK, well, but, but bring it 
locally or you get get get it to

1795
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:53,840
your local wallet and so on. 
So I love Coinbase, but they'll 

1796
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:58,040
also tell you that. 
So the so Coinbase has basecamp.

1797
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,240
This this is a term we call a 
pop up, right? 

1798
01:29:00,480 --> 01:29:03,240
Because doing like a full real 
estate build out like we've done

1799
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:05,840
in network school is like a 
significant commitment. 

1800
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:09,400
But we could have the Huberman 
Health Village pop up here at 

1801
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:10,800
network school if you want to do
that. 

1802
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:15,360
And we just have whatever, 1000 
square feet or 10s of thousands 

1803
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:17,760
of square feet. 
And we go through a bunch of 

1804
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:22,200
your old podcasts and we just 
have a clip of you saying 

1805
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:23,920
something and boom, we 
immediately cut to the 

1806
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:26,080
implementation of that in the 
physical world, right? 

1807
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:29,480
Like the, the IoT curtains or 
something like that, right? 

1808
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:33,360
Or you say magnesium and we've 
got the shelves with magnesium 

1809
01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:36,440
supplements in every room. 
Just like imagine 50 clips like 

1810
01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:38,760
that where you're basically 
projecting all your concepts 

1811
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:40,400
system integrated into the 
physical world. 

1812
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:43,200
And the same way like an iPhone 
integrates a camera and it 

1813
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:45,840
integrates a, you know, an 
accelerometer and the whole is 

1814
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:47,480
greater than some of the parts, 
right? 

1815
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:52,480
And, and the reason for this is 
you have a formula and you have 

1816
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:55,520
managed to probably get an N of 
1 implementation of that that 

1817
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:59,880
works for you. 
But with some thought, you can 

1818
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:02,520
probably scale that for others 
because they're not going to be 

1819
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,320
as skilled and balancing it and 
setting it all up in such a way.

1820
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:07,560
I mean, that's what your book 
is. 

1821
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,600
It's trying to explain to people
what they can do and order of 

1822
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:12,720
descending importance. 
That's right. 

1823
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,680
But but like for just a small 
example, bulk orders of 

1824
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:18,200
magnesium or creatine, they're 
not that expensive, but you 

1825
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:20,760
could, you know, you can get 
bulk discounts on many different

1826
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:22,800
kinds of things, right? 
So a bunch of people doing them 

1827
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,360
together. 
And what's cool about this is 

1828
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:29,320
then people, you know, they come
in and you know, 30 days later, 

1829
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:32,640
after the human health zone, 
right, or whatever you want to 

1830
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:39,600
call it, their, their skin is 
glowing, their eyes are light. 

1831
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:41,200
They've, you know, you show the 
sleep tracker. 

1832
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:43,960
Actually, you know what we could
even do like a traditional 

1833
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,200
academic study where we, you 
know, we show their metrics and 

1834
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:52,520
stuff beforehand and then we 
show everything improving 30 or 

1835
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:55,720
60 days in. 
And you, and ideally it's like 

1836
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:58,120
large effect size where it's 
just, you don't even have to do 

1837
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:00,160
stats on it. 
It's just like, you know, boom, 

1838
01:31:00,160 --> 01:31:03,400
square wave, right? 
And certain kinds of things are 

1839
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:06,800
like that, like, you know, the 
the diabetes prevention program,

1840
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:08,240
the DPP, are you familiar with 
that? 

1841
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:10,280
Right? 
That has like a very large 

1842
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:12,120
effect size because they 
basically make everybody work 

1843
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:14,280
out and eat vegetables and and 
so and so like. 

1844
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:17,080
Glucose regulation gets better. 
Yes, exactly. 

1845
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:19,480
They lose like 10% of body 
weight or some, some some 

1846
01:31:19,480 --> 01:31:21,360
significant amount, which is a 
lot for a lot, right. 

1847
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:25,480
So I think also this is 
something where once it's done 

1848
01:31:25,480 --> 01:31:28,120
on a small scale like that and 
and we videotape the whole thing

1849
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:33,480
and that's content for the pod, 
right Then like governments are 

1850
01:31:33,480 --> 01:31:38,120
like, whoa, this is awesome. 
I want to modify my city or a 

1851
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:39,960
real estate developer says I 
want to build a new real estate 

1852
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:43,080
on this basis. 
So we built something which is 

1853
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:46,040
both a cool experiment and 
demonstration in its own right, 

1854
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:49,080
but it's meant to be a prototype
and template for like, Healthy 

1855
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,200
Huberman living around the 
world. 

1856
01:31:51,480 --> 01:31:54,400
Listen, I'm all for it. 
Let's do it. 

1857
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,640
It sounds like Sounds like 
Singapore is the place to do it.

1858
01:31:58,440 --> 01:32:00,600
A great place, yes. 
US would be would be very 

1859
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:02,240
complicated. 
California would be especially 

1860
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:03,920
complicated. 
I mean, regulations here are 

1861
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:06,960
like absurd. 
And I say that as a lifetime 

1862
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:12,320
Californian who lived through 
the fires, multiple earthquakes,

1863
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:14,600
including the 89. 
I mean, the, the, the way that 

1864
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:17,280
things are constrained here. 
Actually, I read the book or 

1865
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:19,600
listened to the book Abundance, 
You know, Ezra Klein, this is 

1866
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:23,360
quite good in, in explaining why
it's so hard to get things done 

1867
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,160
in California. 
Singapore sounds like the place 

1868
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:29,560
to do it. 
I love this because we also need

1869
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:34,920
reflections and data and 
feedback from not just males, 

1870
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:39,320
but we need women kids. 
A lot of my friends who are able

1871
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:41,440
are homeschooling their kids or 
in small collect. 

1872
01:32:41,440 --> 01:32:43,880
They have like other kids over 
and they like group homeschool 

1873
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:46,760
their kids and they're creating 
these environments of kids are 

1874
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:50,320
wearing, you know, red lens Roca
glasses in the evening, they're 

1875
01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:53,160
off devices at night. 
They're it's very controlled. 

1876
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,720
They're eating really good food,
getting their proteins that are 

1877
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:59,880
essential fatty acids. 
They're getting sunlight. 

1878
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:01,880
They're, you know, this is what 
you're trying to recreate. 

1879
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,160
It sounds like 1 is trying to 
recreate, excuse me, something 

1880
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,400
like from the 70s and 80s and 
90s. 

1881
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:11,680
But actually it's taking the 
best of that, integrating it 

1882
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:15,400
with devices and with modern 
nutrition and supplementation. 

1883
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,320
Traditional. 
Yeah, it's not, it's not trying 

1884
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:19,880
to go back to the wonder years. 
Only a few people will get that 

1885
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:25,400
reference, you know, but it's 
trying to integrate that era of,

1886
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:30,320
of growing up as a teen or a 
young kid with what we now know 

1887
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:33,920
from modern science, which is 
clearly going to extend life 

1888
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:36,560
lifespan, clearly going to 
improve brain development, 

1889
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:41,480
clearly going to set those kids 
apart in ways that none of us 

1890
01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:43,760
can predict. 
And it's not just, and of course

1891
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:45,520
they use their devices, they 
love their device. 

1892
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:47,640
All these kids are into like 
roadblocks and all the other 

1893
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,720
stuff that other kids are into. 
But it's, it's a controlled 

1894
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,120
environment. 
And they come to learn that that

1895
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:56,320
environment of different things 
at different times of day, other

1896
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:59,160
things not at certain times of 
day or night, is normal. 

1897
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:00,920
It's better for. 
Them it's normal, right? 

1898
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:02,760
Yes, that's right. 
Exactly. 

1899
01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:05,280
And you know, there's two or 
three other parts of this that 

1900
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:09,560
we touched on that I wanted to, 
you know, say 1 is everybody 

1901
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:12,120
there is a, is an active 
participant in their own health 

1902
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:16,440
rather than just a passive row 
in a table, you know, right. 

1903
01:34:16,480 --> 01:34:18,760
And so, you know, you know, the 
concept of adaptive clinical 

1904
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:22,120
trials, right? 
Like where basically you don't 

1905
01:34:22,120 --> 01:34:24,720
have to, you know, the entire, 
you know, what's funny is I 

1906
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:28,520
actually think we need to do 
case control studies on case 

1907
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:31,320
control studies. 
We need to regulatory science on

1908
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:33,800
regulators. 
And what I mean by that is like 

1909
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:39,080
many things, I mean most things 
in software and hardware, I mean

1910
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:42,640
SpaceX was not developed via 
case control studies. 

1911
01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:46,320
Those are only for teasing out a
small effect size that's not 

1912
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:50,560
obvious to the visible eye. 
And iteration is, you know, for 

1913
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:53,600
example, when you try and find a
software bug, you have a thesis 

1914
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,720
on it and you do iteration or 
you do get bisect. 

1915
01:34:55,720 --> 01:35:01,360
There's other mechanisms to try 
to find, like what piece of code

1916
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,040
had the effect on the outcome, 
right. 

1917
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:07,240
And so a case control study and 
case control studies means, for 

1918
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:09,400
example, you have one 
jurisdiction that only uses that

1919
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,960
method to try to find new 
medical discoveries. 

1920
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:14,680
And if another one that actually
uses the older method, you don't

1921
01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:17,000
like Banting and best from like 
the 1920s. 

1922
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,440
So the way they discovered that 
insulin worked, I mean, they won

1923
01:35:21,440 --> 01:35:24,200
a Nobel Prize and the way they 
did it was say first day of the 

1924
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:27,920
theory. 
Then they, they, they tested on 

1925
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:33,480
dogs, then they tested on 
themselves, then they tested on 

1926
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:36,360
volunteers. 
And then, you know, they had 

1927
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:38,680
patients just like literally 
jump out of bed, like true bench

1928
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:41,160
to bedside, like they walk over 
with the bubbling beaker, you 

1929
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:44,680
know, and that was something 
where from 1921 they had the 

1930
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:48,320
idea about 1923 scale production
by Eli Lilly for the entire 

1931
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:50,960
North American continent and 
they won the Nobel Prize. 

1932
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:53,320
That was when pharma moved at 
the speed of software because 

1933
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:54,920
they could iterate. 
Also they could change 

1934
01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:57,840
formulation, you know, all this 
kind of stuff that requires 

1935
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:03,960
crazy FDA review to go from, you
know, like injectable to oral to

1936
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:06,880
patch to this, that they could 
just that that's like, you know,

1937
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:10,800
mobile client, desktop client, 
you know, command line client. 

1938
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,360
They could just edit the 
formulation, edit the dosage, 

1939
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:15,840
titrate this, then they'll just 
look and see if it works. 

1940
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:18,640
And they do it by feel because 
the effect size was large enough

1941
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:22,000
that they could see it, right? 
That was when, of course, there 

1942
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:24,640
were patent medicines and scams 
and so on and so forth. 

1943
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:27,240
But that was also when lots of 
the wonder drugs were developed,

1944
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:29,880
which is why, which the FDA has 
acknowledged by grandfathering 

1945
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:32,000
all kinds of drugs before the 
modern era. 

1946
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:34,760
And in many ways, I think we're 
going back to that time, right? 

1947
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:36,800
So we'll be more down South. 
There will be more things that 

1948
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:38,360
don't work. 
There'll be a lot more 

1949
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:42,040
miraculous things that really, 
really work on on balance, these

1950
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:45,080
things scale because they get 
replicated billions of times and

1951
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:47,440
the failures happen usually 
once, right. 

1952
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:50,880
So that is kind of the vision 
for what these health zones 

1953
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:54,000
would be. 
And you know, obviously you can,

1954
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:55,640
you don't have, no one's going 
to force you to take a 

1955
01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:59,800
treatment, but you could go in 
and you could be the first one, 

1956
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:01,760
the first ten, the first 
hundred, the first thousand. 

1957
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,960
Also, one thing I think is those
people who are very early 

1958
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:07,600
adopters, we should give them 
the equivalent of the 

1959
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,640
Presidential Medal of Freedom 
because people go and they die 

1960
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,640
in the military, they die bungee
jumping, they die skydiving, 

1961
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:14,480
they die in sort of foolhardy 
things. 

1962
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:16,840
They take risks that don't 
benefit anybody. 

1963
01:37:17,440 --> 01:37:20,080
But those people who are like 
the first to try some treatment 

1964
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:22,800
that could benefit a lot of 
people should be honored. 

1965
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,280
And, you know, like, even if it 
doesn't work out for them, all 

1966
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:27,600
their bills are paid and so on 
and so forth because, you know, 

1967
01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:30,280
it's a it's like a thing they're
doing for humanity, you know 

1968
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:31,360
what I mean? 
Like, we have to change. 

1969
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:33,080
Like we can make movies on this.
Go ahead. 

1970
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,960
I totally agree. 
I and you know, hopefully no one

1971
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:39,760
will die, but sure it's fair 
that you some people will come 

1972
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,480
to rather late. 
You know, I've had people reach 

1973
01:37:42,480 --> 01:37:45,400
out who came to some of the 
protocols in the podcast that I 

1974
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:47,600
covered on the podcast and 
elsewhere in their 80s. 

1975
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:50,760
Oh, wow. 
And and feel now some of them 

1976
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:52,680
were already exercising, some 
were doing better. 

1977
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,920
That's the other category that I
forgot to mention earlier, that 

1978
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:59,680
of people in the academic 
community who will reach out and

1979
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:04,920
say, Hey, listen, you know, the 
sunlight thing or the, you know,

1980
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:09,200
rarely it's the creatine thing, 
but the, you know, exercise 

1981
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:10,800
thing has, has been 
transformative. 

1982
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:15,200
What we forget sometimes is that
if people are, if you can get 

1983
01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:18,800
people to sleep better, like 
basically you have a, a friend 

1984
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:22,520
for life, right? 
If people can lose weight where 

1985
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:25,320
they haven't been able to lose 
weight previously or feel more 

1986
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:30,400
vigor, I think that creates a 
buy in of the very best kind, 

1987
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:31,960
right? 
Because they own the tools 

1988
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:36,000
inside them at that point. 
I love the idea of building this

1989
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,560
community. 
I would really like to discuss 

1990
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:42,880
further, presumably offline, how
we how we start to implement 

1991
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:47,000
that because and I love the 
overlap with the with the crypto

1992
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:48,720
community. 
I mean, I know very little about

1993
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:51,160
crypto, but I've started to 
invest in crypto more in the 

1994
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:54,520
last year or so, although I had 
started back in 2020. 

1995
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:59,480
Crypto loves Schuberman by a 
crypto will fund all kinds of 

1996
01:38:59,480 --> 01:39:02,840
huberman and huberman grad 
student human disciple type 

1997
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,000
things has risk capital that 
loves your style. 

1998
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:06,800
Great. 
Well, Huberman loves crypto 

1999
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:11,200
because it's, you know, early on
a very, very smart, I shouldn't 

2000
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:16,320
name him, a very successful 
entrepreneur from the Bay Area 

2001
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:20,680
of Stanford grad told me to 
start investing whatever in some

2002
01:39:20,720 --> 01:39:23,320
percentage of my investable 
income in crypto. 

2003
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:27,480
And that was back in 2017. 
I didn't listen until 2020, but 

2004
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:32,160
look, it's clear that that this 
is here to stay in the same way 

2005
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:35,320
I feel it has a lot of semblance
to like what we saw like these 

2006
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:37,000
bro science bodybuilding 
community. 

2007
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,880
Yeah, all this exactly. 
I mean, you know, if we had a 

2008
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,800
dollar for every woman, let's 
just say women who have no 

2009
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:46,240
interest in lifting weights, who
is now injecting Ozempic or 

2010
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:51,000
Manjaro asking about peptides, 
we'd be extremely wealthy. 

2011
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:55,640
So it these things, the 
whatever's crazy now is going to

2012
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:59,160
be in the mainframe in in 5 to 
10 years maybe. 

2013
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:01,840
Absolutely breath work made the 
cut. 

2014
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:03,920
They just had to call it 
respiration Physiology. 

2015
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,240
We and others published some 
some clinical trials. 

2016
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:08,280
OK, meditation. 
Now everyone knows if you 

2017
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:10,520
actually take the time to 
meditate like has benefits. 

2018
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:14,360
You know, it took so long and 
people were attacked, viciously 

2019
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,680
attacked Mystics, counterculture
kicked. 

2020
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:20,920
I mean the whole and sometimes 
it's because of the merge of 

2021
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:23,560
these things with kind of like 
drugs and sex and. 

2022
01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:26,960
Other things that can cause some
like scandals and issues, but or

2023
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:30,200
deaths, right? 
But I think if we really step 

2024
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:33,280
back, we put on our rational 
minds for a moment, people 

2025
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:35,680
realize like there's, there's 
great things to be pulled from 

2026
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,240
these different communities, 
including academic science, but 

2027
01:40:38,240 --> 01:40:40,480
that we've hit a, we've hit a 
roadblock. 

2028
01:40:40,480 --> 01:40:43,480
Now we're, we're really at a, at
a place where we need the sorts 

2029
01:40:43,480 --> 01:40:44,720
of communities that you're 
talking about. 

2030
01:40:44,720 --> 01:40:48,800
We need high fluency, high 
throughput mechanisms to fund 

2031
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:52,840
and try things and and iterate 
and I love it. 

2032
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:55,200
I I'm all on board. 
I didn't expect this is where 

2033
01:40:55,200 --> 01:40:57,720
the conversation was going to 
go, but I'm super excited. 

2034
01:40:58,320 --> 01:40:59,160
Amazing. 
Great. 

2035
01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:01,000
And we can take your men into 
the physical world. 

2036
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:03,280
You know, I'll ask one last 
thing. 

2037
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:06,240
This is just maybe you're 
already on this and I haven't 

2038
01:41:06,240 --> 01:41:09,720
seen the pods on it and so on. 
I do think it might be 

2039
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:14,360
interesting for you to look at 
traditional Chinese medicine and

2040
01:41:14,360 --> 01:41:16,720
traditional Indian medicine like
Ayurveda and so on. 

2041
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:21,520
So like acupuncture, Ayurveda, 
yoga, meditation and so and so 

2042
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:24,120
forth. 
The reason I say that is, for 

2043
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:28,440
example, with acupuncture, you 
know, I wasn't like a believer 

2044
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:30,760
in acupuncture because I was 
like an allopathic, you know, 

2045
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:34,520
western, whatever kind of good. 
And then, you know, I had some 

2046
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:37,880
like, you know, like wrist 
issue, like my wrist was sore 

2047
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:42,160
for, you know, because like from
an old lacrosse injury or what 

2048
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:44,360
have you. 
And this is many, many years ago

2049
01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:49,960
like, and then I, I got some 
acupuncture and what was 

2050
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:53,120
remarkable was the needles were 
like in like my leg or something

2051
01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:57,200
like that. 
And amazingly I moved my like 

2052
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:00,320
right arm or like right wrist 
like this. 

2053
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:03,440
And I could see that needle 
twitch. 

2054
01:42:03,840 --> 01:42:06,080
But if I move my left wrist, it 
didn't twitch. 

2055
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:10,040
So there was something to this 
concept of like the meridians or

2056
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:12,200
what have you. 
There is like a wiring diagram 

2057
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,400
for the body. 
They are on to something, you 

2058
01:42:15,400 --> 01:42:19,200
know, And I was like, wow, 
that's kind of interesting, 

2059
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:22,800
right? 
And so I feel like there's with 

2060
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:26,840
the rise of China, the rise of 
India, there's that seems like 

2061
01:42:26,840 --> 01:42:29,840
an interesting set of topics 
that I bet would expand your 

2062
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:32,360
audience and people might be 
interested in looking at that. 

2063
01:42:32,440 --> 01:42:36,840
It's something to think about. 
Yeah, so we've touched on it, 

2064
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:40,640
but it probably too lightly and 
we should go, you know, full on 

2065
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:42,880
into it. 
And one of the interesting 

2066
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:44,920
things about being a public 
health educator who's also a 

2067
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:48,360
scientist at a university like 
Stanford is I've had to be 

2068
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:52,680
thoughtful about which topics I 
embrace when to establish. 

2069
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:57,200
You know, it's less about it's 
credibility, but it's more to 

2070
01:42:57,200 --> 01:42:59,520
give people a sense of how I 
approach something. 

2071
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:04,920
So for instance, so just a 
couple of of things within the, 

2072
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:06,560
the area that you're talking 
about. 

2073
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,760
I'm in 2017, I started a 
practice called yoga Nidra where

2074
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:12,800
you lie down, you do long exhale
breathing. 

2075
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:15,280
This was developed in, in India 
or thousands of years ago. 

2076
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:16,960
It literally translates to yoga 
sleep. 

2077
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:20,040
And the state of mind you're 
trying to accomplish and that 

2078
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:23,200
you soon learn to accomplish is 
1 in which your brain is awake, 

2079
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,520
but your body is very relaxed. 
There's only one other state of 

2080
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:31,200
being that that approximate that
and that's REM sleep when the 

2081
01:43:31,200 --> 01:43:34,040
brain is very active and the 
body is essentially paralyzed. 

2082
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:40,280
It's now been shown in a lot of 
studies to improve learning and 

2083
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:45,560
memory, improve, basically 
reduce the latency to fall 

2084
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:47,600
asleep or fall back asleep if 
you wake up in the middle of the

2085
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:48,640
night. 
Even if you do this during the 

2086
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:53,200
daytime, it's been shown to 
improve outcomes for, you know, 

2087
01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:56,360
trauma, etcetera. 
I modified it and called it 

2088
01:43:56,360 --> 01:44:00,240
something called non sleep deep 
rest or NSDRI, removed the 

2089
01:44:00,240 --> 01:44:03,280
intentions. 
I removed any kind of mention of

2090
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:05,880
anything Mystic or, or the 
chakras, etcetera. 

2091
01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:08,640
And I caught some heat from the 
traditional yoga nidra 

2092
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:10,360
community. 
Understandably so. 

2093
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:12,680
But the goal was when you call 
it non sleep deep rest, you 

2094
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:15,520
immediately know what it is. 
Look, it's not a nap because 

2095
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:19,720
here's the thing, naps will 
disrupt your nighttime sleep. 

2096
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:23,760
They create sleep inertia. 
Non sleep deep breaths and yoga 

2097
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:25,680
nidra improve your sleep at 
night. 

2098
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:29,960
Meditation is designed to relax 
you, NSDR non sleep deep breaths

2099
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:33,000
is designed to replenish your 
mental and physical vigor and 

2100
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:36,160
hypnosis is designed to modify 
your brain in a certain way. 

2101
01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:39,160
This is just just designed to 
let you self direct your own 

2102
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:45,160
relaxation while being awake has
profound positive effects on 

2103
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:46,720
cognition, sleep and everything 
else. 

2104
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:50,080
But if I called it yoga nidra, 
people go like, all right, that 

2105
01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:51,960
sounds kind of crazy. 
Does it require meditation? 

2106
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:57,360
OK, acupuncture, right? 
Acupuncture. 

2107
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:02,040
For many years acupuncture was 
considered kind of like medicine

2108
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:05,600
by in the West. 
Chufu Ma's lab at Harvard 

2109
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:08,640
Medical School. 
Chufu is a is a very serious 

2110
01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:12,800
neurobiologist, trained and 
published beautiful papers in 

2111
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:17,440
science, nature, etcetera on the
nociceptive pain system. 

2112
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:20,920
And as his name suggests, he's 
Chinese. 

2113
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:26,240
So at some point he decided to 
explore what insertion of these 

2114
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:29,720
different needles at different 
locations in the body would do 

2115
01:45:29,720 --> 01:45:32,720
for things like cytokine 
release, inflammation, 

2116
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:36,960
norepinephrine, dopamine and 
other catecholamines. 

2117
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:40,840
What he found was that different
combinations of of entry sites 

2118
01:45:40,840 --> 01:45:43,800
of these needles create very 
different outputs from the 

2119
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:46,720
different glands of the body, 
but that there's a systematic 

2120
01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:49,480
map and so and some of these 
have been. 

2121
01:45:49,480 --> 01:45:50,800
Published. 
I realize it's been published. 

2122
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:53,240
Yeah, in science, and these were
mouse studies, but they're 

2123
01:45:53,240 --> 01:45:55,920
starting to move into other 
areas and they use Electro 

2124
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:58,600
acupuncture, so they'll do some 
stimulation of the nerves at 

2125
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,040
those locations. 
But you know, we know from 

2126
01:46:01,040 --> 01:46:04,960
experimental neuroscience that 
pressure can activate nerve 

2127
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:08,120
pathways. 
So I absolutely believe that one

2128
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:11,560
of the, the most important 
things for modern medicine to do

2129
01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:16,760
is to take the maps of the, the 
body from Eastern medicine to 

2130
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:19,680
take the maps even like this 
notion of the chakras, this idea

2131
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:22,640
that, you know, from our neck 
down to about our pelvis, we 

2132
01:46:22,640 --> 01:46:25,160
have our sympathetic nervous 
system, the sympathetic chain 

2133
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:28,400
ganglia, chains of neurons that 
activate glands and other 

2134
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,360
features in our body, organs in 
our body through the deployment 

2135
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:33,800
of different transmitters. 
And we know that at different 

2136
01:46:33,800 --> 01:46:36,360
locations along the sympathetic 
chain ganglia, they innervate 

2137
01:46:36,360 --> 01:46:38,760
different organs. 
And here are the acupuncturists 

2138
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:41,280
and those that talk about 
chakras been talking for a long 

2139
01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:43,440
time about opening up. 
They call them in yoga, the 

2140
01:46:43,440 --> 01:46:46,080
bandas that they're essentially 
sphincters. 

2141
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:49,120
You know, you don't just have a 
sphincter in your, your butt and

2142
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:51,440
your mouth, right? 
You have them in your throat. 

2143
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:53,800
You have them all along your 
digestive type. 

2144
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:57,960
We're a tube. 
And So what labs like Chufu's 

2145
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:00,520
are starting to do is starting 
to say, like what is the 

2146
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:06,680
conglomerate of nerve and gland 
and and vascular features at 

2147
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:09,160
different locations along the 
sympathetic chain ganglia? 

2148
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:13,040
How do those relate to 
activation of different releases

2149
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:16,360
of different hormones? 
And again, there's a lot of work

2150
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:17,880
that needs to be done to unpack 
this. 

2151
01:47:18,040 --> 01:47:21,760
But I think we can safely say 
that Ayurveda and Eastern 

2152
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:24,680
medicine have figured out 
systematic maps. 

2153
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:28,080
They don't know the mechanisms 
by which insertions of needles 

2154
01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:31,160
at this site and that site 
create, on average, a particular

2155
01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:33,720
outcome. 
Now you get people, and I won't 

2156
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:35,840
even name them because they're 
so obnoxious. 

2157
01:47:36,440 --> 01:47:38,640
You get certain people, 
especially on acts in the 

2158
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:44,440
traditional medical community, 
who love to throw shade, as the 

2159
01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:48,040
kids say, on things like 
Ayurveda, because and they'll 

2160
01:47:48,040 --> 01:47:51,360
cite some instances in which, 
you know, some herbal like like 

2161
01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:55,240
lead contaminated turmeric 
killed a patient. 

2162
01:47:55,240 --> 01:48:00,680
And like, that's the wrong case.
We should always be asking, you 

2163
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:04,680
know, at the one end of of of 
brain plasticity, meaning you 

2164
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:07,240
have curiosity is brain 
plasticity. 

2165
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:09,240
That's the the window to brain 
plasticity. 

2166
01:48:09,240 --> 01:48:12,120
At the other end, you have 
cynicism when you get, you know,

2167
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:14,360
if the more cynical you are, the
less plasticity you have. 

2168
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:18,400
So if I hear a cynical Dr., I 
tune out What I am absolutely 

2169
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:22,080
convinced of based on the Chu 
fuma data and the experience 

2170
01:48:22,080 --> 01:48:24,760
with yoga nidra which non sleep 
depressed and now the clinical 

2171
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:26,440
trials in the US that are being 
done there. 

2172
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:30,000
Everything we know about 
meditation, breath work, AKA 

2173
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,880
respiration, Physiology is now 
becoming a big thing, even if 

2174
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:37,320
it's just about sleep apnea, is 
that we have to look at these 

2175
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:40,480
systematic maps through the lens
of what we understand about 

2176
01:48:40,480 --> 01:48:44,360
mechanism. 
And we are going to find a, it's

2177
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:49,800
already a treasure trove of 
actionable advice that is very 

2178
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:51,840
likely to be mostly behavioral 
in nature. 

2179
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:56,200
But also the Chinese herbal 
thing is incredible in terms of 

2180
01:48:56,200 --> 01:48:59,240
the sleep science, what they 
have access to in terms of, of 

2181
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:02,200
the acupuncturist understand 
about ways to improve sleep, 

2182
01:49:02,440 --> 01:49:05,760
spectacular, so and on and on 
and on. 

2183
01:49:05,760 --> 01:49:10,280
So I'm totally on board, but we 
need really good scientists 

2184
01:49:10,320 --> 01:49:12,360
unpacking this stuff. 
That's right. 

2185
01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:15,160
So basically now that we've got 
a lot of people of Indian or 

2186
01:49:15,160 --> 01:49:17,760
Chinese descent that are also 
trained in Western medicine that

2187
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:20,200
can be like cheap food. 
Exactly. 

2188
01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:22,640
That's right. 
And I my view on this is also 

2189
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:27,800
just as you said, like imagine 
somebody who was making a potion

2190
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:32,440
in the Middle Ages and they had 
ten ingredients and the potion 

2191
01:49:32,440 --> 01:49:35,000
worked. 
And now from today's vantage 

2192
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:38,280
point, we would know that, OK, 
this one was the active 

2193
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:40,960
ingredient. 
The other nine were just like 

2194
01:49:40,960 --> 01:49:42,960
the superstitious part or what 
have you, right? 

2195
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:47,400
But the potion did work, right? 
And so that's sort of how I 

2196
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:50,080
think about a lot of this stuff 
where if it survived through the

2197
01:49:50,080 --> 01:49:54,720
ages, there's like some 
underlying physics or biology or

2198
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:58,280
biochemistry or what have you, 
neurophysiology, whatever you 

2199
01:49:58,280 --> 01:50:01,240
want to call it. 
That probably means the thing 

2200
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:03,200
works. 
And then you might be able to 

2201
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:05,400
abstract out what the active 
ingredient is. 

2202
01:50:05,400 --> 01:50:07,720
For example, you mentioned 
Electro acupuncture. 

2203
01:50:07,720 --> 01:50:10,080
Electro acupuncture, this is 
actually some of the most 

2204
01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:12,040
exciting work in the realm of 
psychedelics. 

2205
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,680
There's a laboratory of a UC 
Davis trying to remove the 

2206
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:17,840
psychedelic experience from 
psychedelics. 

2207
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:20,640
There is this theory that what 
they do is they open brain 

2208
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:22,880
plasticity in the weeks 
following the experience. 

2209
01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:24,320
And there's this question 
whether or not the actual 

2210
01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:27,760
experience that you have on a 
psychedelic is necessary to 

2211
01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:32,640
activate the plasticity window 
and the neuroplasticity inducing

2212
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,560
effects of psychedelics without 
the psychedelic journey, right? 

2213
01:50:35,560 --> 01:50:38,560
So these are, these are 
plasticity drugs without the 

2214
01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:42,120
Mystic psychedelic experience. 
Now the, the people who are kind

2215
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:44,440
of anchored to the history of 
psychedelics will say, no, you 

2216
01:50:44,440 --> 01:50:46,080
need the journey, you need the 
anxiety. 

2217
01:50:46,080 --> 01:50:48,720
You have to like embrace the and
you can say, OK, fine, but like,

2218
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:50,400
what about kids? 
You're not going to send them 

2219
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:52,080
into that. 
What about people who have a 

2220
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,520
predisposition of psychosis or 
bipolar disorder? 

2221
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:56,560
You're not going to send them 
off to do psychedelics. 

2222
01:50:56,560 --> 01:50:59,120
That would be completely 
irresponsible. 

2223
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:01,800
So we're starting to see like 
ketamine broke through. 

2224
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,600
Ketamine works very similarly to
PCP. 

2225
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:07,680
It's a dissociative anesthetic, 
works on the NMDA receptor. 

2226
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:10,240
But when it was PCP, everyone 
was like terrified. 

2227
01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:12,200
Ketamine is different, but 
similar enough. 

2228
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:17,200
So, you know, it's sort of like 
Monjaro bodybuilding peptides. 

2229
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,440
It's like, you know, 
acupuncture, like where the, the

2230
01:51:20,440 --> 01:51:23,200
naming is critical. 
It's funny, even the addition of

2231
01:51:23,200 --> 01:51:26,800
Electro to acupuncture makes it 
a completely different beast to 

2232
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:29,960
a lot of people Just, yeah, 
biased towards like devices in 

2233
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:32,200
the West. 
So yeah, I mean, once again, 

2234
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,080
apology. 
I would just say you're, you're 

2235
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,800
definitely peering into the 
future on this. 

2236
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:39,120
And I love that you're parting 
the veil on it and inviting 

2237
01:51:39,120 --> 01:51:41,720
people in. 
I'm totally on board. 

2238
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:44,320
Totally. 
And I don't say that lightly 

2239
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:46,320
because a lot of things where 
people like let's build a 

2240
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:49,240
device, I'm like, and it's just 
like one more piece. 

2241
01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:52,600
It's not the thing that's really
going to move everybody forward.

2242
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:55,520
So I'm because you're talking 
about changing the whole 

2243
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:58,520
community framework around 
medicine and healthcare. 

2244
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:00,960
So I'm totally on board. 
Amazing. 

2245
01:52:01,080 --> 01:52:02,640
Great. 
And I'm looking forward to 

2246
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:04,600
working with you. 
Let's discuss further offline 

2247
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:08,800
and I'll put together. 
A spec and thanks for coming on 

2248
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:10,600
the podcast. 
Great, I can't wait to 

2249
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,680
eventually meet in person. 
Come here. 

2250
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:15,040
You're invited here anytime to 
check out my my. 

2251
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:21,360
You know, Huberman Lab, This is 
the other Huberman lab. 

2252
01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:23,040
There's the one at Stanford. 
There's the one at. 

2253
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:24,800
On that is the. 
Podcast. 

2254
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:26,680
And then there's the one I'm 
sitting in right now. 

2255
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:27,800
Yeah, amazing.