Robert Green in studio, in the flesh.
You are actually one of our most requested guests.
Is that right? Yeah, For the.
Who's the most requested? Doctor K, the Gaming
psychologist. Don't even know who that is.
Wow, have you had him on? I have not I've I've I've
contacted his people but. What's what's so amazing about
Doctor K? Well, he's a He's a psychiatrist
who targets mental health for gamers.
That's a lot of your audience. I guess so I got.
A lot of YouTube, yeah, a lot of Youtubers.
I guess so. It's the Subtle Art of Not
Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.
So my first question for you is actually quite selfish.
As a younger author, I I find your career so fascinating
because you have this long history of successful books.
But it, it really seems like there's this resurgence of
interest, especially in the 48 laws of power over the last few
years. It seems like Gen.
Z is discovering Robert Greene and you're getting this whole
second wave of attention. I'm curious what that experience
has been like. What that, what your thoughts on
that are and whether you feel like you have any control over
that or if it just happened well.
I don't know. It's probably a confluence of
things. Who knows why things happened in
this world? It's complex and it's
mysterious. But I would say social media has
played a huge role in it because back ten years ago or so, you
know, nobody really know who I was.
I had no Instagram. I was a little bit on Facebook,
but I hadn't really gotten into social media at all.
I was very, very scant on on Twitter.
And so I think a lot of it is about five years ago, some, some
fans said you got to get on social media and he took over
and he, he did it himself for me.
And we ended up having to fire him because he was kind of a
control freak, but nice guy. But he he just wanted to like
kind of run my empire. He would call it my, he'd say
your legacy. I'm going to protect your legacy
as if I'm dead or something. So I got rid of him.
Anyway. Suddenly, you know, it started
growing. I have this guy Stanley, who's
my assistant who puts clips and he's very good at choosing
certain clips. And so a lot of it is social
media giving me a presence. You know, up until recently, I
could walk down the street, nobody knew the hell who the
hell I was. And suddenly people started
recognizing me because of this. It was just exploded.
You know, even in places like London or Paris, it's like got
this international reach was incredible.
And so I have to thank social media for that, for paying my
mortgage and all the other things like that.
But then why has it resonated now?
And I think young people are dealing with a world that's so
much more chaotic and confusing. Some of it has to do with the
conditions of the world that we're living in, which is, which
is, as I said, much more chaotic than it was maybe 10-15 years
ago. Some of it has to do with the
parenting issues, how differently they have been
raised and the culture that they're entering.
And so because of that feeling kind of very lost and confused,
the 48 laws of power kind of gives you sort of a grounding
and kind of the, the dark, harsh aspect of life.
Because I, I don't know, I'm not Gen.
Z, so it's hard for me to generalize.
Of course, it's ridiculous to generalize, but a lot of them
feel maybe they've been a little bit sheltered from that kind of
harsh aspect of life. I know when I was 21, if I can
remember back that far, I entered the work world out of
college and I I was a liberal arts major, ancient Greek and
Latin. You can't get any more
irrelevant subject than that. My first job was a real job
because I had many different. My first real job was at Esquire
magazine. I was the lowest editor there,
an editorial assistant. It was like mind blood.
I couldn't believe power games that were gone because nothing
in college prepared you for that.
All the egos of the writers, the editors, the celebrity, the
weirdness. I once edited an article by John
Irving, you know the writer. He turned in a travel article
about Vienna because I was like the travel editor.
It was such a bad article. It was like, go to this cafe,
turn right and then go here, and then turn left and go.
It was like that kind of writing.
I edited totally. I made it like a narrative and I
got essentially fired because of that or got demoted.
I had outshone the master law #1 so it was this rude awakening
into this is what the world is really like.
I had to school myself very quickly, and then with my fifty
different jobs, I learned over time this is how the world is.
Young people are going through that, but times 10, because the
world is even more confusing. They're not used to dealing with
all of these egos to all the political games.
So I think I I can't say for sure, but I think these are some
of the components that go into this revival of the book.
It's selling five times more than it ever did 20 years ago.
So it's insane, yeah. I feel like cynicism travels on
the Internet faster than it does in real life.
And I think as a generation that grew up on social media and grew
up on the Internet, what I detect from Gen.
Z is just is kind of an an embedded cynicism about the
world and and like. Is that right?
Skepticism and, and I, I could see why a book about power
appeals to that. It's like, OK, well this book's
going to just cut through the bullshit and actually tell me
what's going on. So I the appeal makes sense.
But I'm not. I'm not a cynical person.
I know people think of the book as cynical, but I don't really
think of it as cynical because cynical is is basically, you
know, leaning into all the bad things in life, etcetera.
And it's not very realistic because not all life is bad.
There are bad people out there. I just think the book is
realistic. Yeah, for sure.
Because I'm not a cynical person at heart, you know, I'm actually
got unfortunately more of a romantic naive streak.
And I think it in some weird way that comes out in the book, but. 00:06:34,120 It's interesting, you know, you
and I have met in person a few Times Now, and I imagine the the
image that people get from reading your books versus.
How they see me. How how you actually are in
person like I do you get people like assuming that you're like
trying to pull puppet strings and manipulating them.
Yeah, like I'm 5 minutes late for a meeting.
It's not because of the traffic, it's because I'm playing some
kind of weird game on them, you know?
Like it's Mall 27 or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I know.
I've said I've told the story before, but when I met $0.50 for
the first time, before we ever thought of writing a book
together, he was like, He later told me he was kind of a little
bit intimidated by this. He expected an older man, he
feels like Henry Kissinger, to show up when we first met.
And then he was kind of surprised, maybe even a little
bit disappointed that I wasn't like that.
Of course, I had the same impression about him.
I was expecting someone really kind of mean and intimidating
and thuggish, and he was the sweetest, gentlest, nicest
person you could ever imagine. Yeah.
But yeah, people expect this, that everything I do is a power
move. It's but it's not true.
Yeah. Do you just kind of see that as
the cost of the success of the book?
You know, 'cause it's I, I get this with my fuck books.
Like people make assumptions about me that I'm.
And then they meet me in person, they're like, oh, you're not
like that at all. Like the?
Well, you do. You do give a fuck, don't you?
Of course. Yeah, of course.
OK. No, I'm scared.
Yeah, but you're outing me, Robert.
You're asking me? Exactly.
Sorry, sorry. You can start being mean to me
now. You're trying to show people,
you know, there's a theatrical element to the social world
which I embrace. And I think it's kind of fun and
interesting and it's part of the 48 laws of power.
So when you enter the world, you're not yourself.
I think it's something a mistake people make.
They have no distance between their inner self and their
public self. So they enter the work world and
people are different and weird and stuff, and they take it
personally and I try and strike people.
It's not personal, it's a game. People are wearing masks.
It's like something from the 18th century where people are in
costumes and they're in theater and they're performing.
People are constantly performing.
Well, I'm performing as well. And so if people have this image
of me as this dark, sinister figure, sometimes, you know, I
don't mind. I might lean into it a little
bit. I might give that out, that
impression, because I kind of enjoy that.
I kind of enjoy playing that role sort of thing.
You know, I don't have a problem with it, but it's not really who
I am. Right, right.
Tell me about in in your book Mastery, you talk about finding
your life task and from what I know about you and from the bits
and pieces I've read about you and talk to you, you seem to
know pretty early on that you wanted to be an author.
You seem kind of just built to be a writer.
Like what? What was your process of
searching and discovering and finding what you?
Consider your life. You know, I had my story was was
fairly clear. I mean, like you, there's it
goes up and down. It's not, it's never like a
straight path, of course. But when I was very young, I
loved writing. I wrote.
I, I believe I wrote something like a novel when I was about
nine years old. And it was about our early,
early humans first entering the scene, you know, walking in the
savannas of Africa. And I'm nine years old, and it's
told from the point of view of a vulture who's watching them, you
know, I'm sure it's terrible. But for a nine year old, that's
impressive. That's very impressive.
Yeah, I was really obsessed with vultures and I did little
sculptures of vultures. Yeah.
So you kind of see the dark side already there when I'm nine
years old. But.
And so, you know, I love, I love words.
Just the sound of words, the sensuality of words, the
weirdness of, you know, I just, I never took language at its
face value. I thought there's something
strange that we speak in words, that we have these symbols that
we take for granted that just we talk so smoothly, but they're
not. They're weird that these little
squiggles that mean something, that have a, a sound attached to
them. It's a child that this is really
strange. I was obsessed with words.
I played with words. I still do that to this day.
I love like pal and drums and word games and such.
So words obsessed me. And obviously I wanted to be a
writer. I thought when I was 18 in my
drug days that I would be a wild novelist.
You know, that was my real dream.
I'm still am kind of a, a failed novelist, so to speak.
And so I tried, as I've told people before, I tried many
different types of writing. I tried journalism.
I hated it. I failed at it wasn't a good
fit. I tried writing novels, bumming
my around Europe with a backpack.
I failed at that. I came back to LA, tried to be a
screenwriter. I failed at that.
These weren't fits for me because I have a weird mind and
I'm also a control freak and I didn't have any kind of control
in Hollywood. And so, you know, I lucked into
the 48 laws of power by meeting this man in Italy.
We were there to start a new media school for Benetton, some
weird project like that. It was, it was kind of a
meaningless venture. It really was about being in
Italy and having good pasta and espresso and wine.
It wasn't about it getting anything done.
If you know the Italians, this is the land of Machiavelli.
And so he, Dios and I, the man who did that, we kind of bonded
over it. One day I'm in Venice, Italy,
where because it was near Venice and we were walking, he said, do
I have any ideas for a book? And the 48 Laws of Power just
was like, almost like I vomited out of me.
I kind of improvised the gist of it, actually.
I told him a story, the story that opens the book.
I said this is how I'd illustrated.
He said, that's fantastic, I'll pay you to live while you write
the book 'cause I was very poor. And so I kind of found my way in
this kind of circuitous way manner to what I was really
meant to do. But the lesson I think for
people, because I get so many emails, people telling me I
don't know what my life's task is.
I can't figure out what my purpose is.
Can you help me? Can you help me?
And there are signs, I believe everybody has signs.
And these signs come out, a lot of them are negative signs,
which you're not paying attention to, things that you
hate, things that frustrate you. So you're in music, it isn't
quite working. You feel a little bit
uncomfortable, it's not a fit. So you make the wise decision
that it's not for you to get out.
Other people, they maybe feel that frustration, but they don't
go there. They go.
Or I've already trained as a musician, I got to stick with
it. They go and then they've then
they burn out that 30 years old and it does.
It's not working for them. They go.
What's my life's purpose? I have no idea.
You've got to listen to the signs.
Sometimes the signs are physical.
They're literally in your body. You literally feel frustrated.
You literally feel like you're swimming against the tide.
It's not working for you. You get up in the morning.
You're not interested in this. So the negative is very
important, but also there's the positive, you know?
So for me, the negative was I hate, I actually hate office
politics, which is very ironic for me.
You know who wrote that? I couldn't.
I can't stand working for other people.
And so I have to work for myself.
I have to be an entrepreneur. I have to write books.
I have to have control. But then there are the positive
signs. There's the signs of things that
you love, that you're passionate about.
They generally show up when you're very 678 years old.
And so I tell people, you've got to go through that process.
You have to reconnect with the child inside of you because
children are dreamers. Every child thinks I'm going to
be president, I'm going to write a great novel, I'm going to do
this out of the other. Then those dreams slowly get
squeezed out of them. But you have to return back to
that. You have to have a little bit of
that expensive quality, that little bit of imagination, even
a little bit of naivete, and go back to who you were and go back
to the things that excite you in a way that you can't even
explain, you know? The, the negative feedback
thing, one thing I noticed, and a lot of people, you know,
there's, there's this narrative around grit, persistence, hustle
culture, right? Like I, what I noticed with a
lot of people is when they start running into that resistance and
it doesn't feel right, it feels painful.
The first thing they tell themselves is like, Oh, well, I
just need to, to toughen the fuck up and keep going because
this is, this is what you know, all my heroes did is they just
kept fighting through it. And it's, I think it's such a,
it's so much more nuanced than that of like understanding when
the push through and when to, to let go.
Well, the The Subtle Art should be the actually the title of
your next book because it is subtle, it is nuanced.
Life is not so obvious. So sometimes grit and
persistence is the right way. So for me, writing, I failed at
all these different aspects. I didn't give up.
I didn't say, all right, My parents wanted me to go to law
school, wanted me to settle down, wanted me to take these
awful television jobs that I had, you know, and I can.
I've had the worst television job you can imagine.
I won't even say that they want me to settle down.
You know, I had to have the persistence to go, no, I'm going
to do this. I'm going to stick with it.
I have faith in myself, even though I got very depressed.
But also, sometimes persistence could be exactly the wrong
thing. And the key is the key to
everything in life is knowing what you really, truly love,
what you were meant to do, why you were born, why you're a
different individual. You know, I, I know it sounds
like a cliche, but everybody, your DNA is unique.
There's never going to be another Mark Manson.
You, the way your brain is wired, the way your parents
raised you, your early experiences, you are unique.
And so that is where your power lies.
And connecting to that is, is is the source of everything in this
world. So if you connect to it, if you
know who you are, you know what you love, you know what you were
meant to do, and it's not a cliche, it's actually very real,
Then that persistence will become an actual positive thing
in your life. Because you'll know I can't keep
kicking against a wall here. It's not what I was meant to do. 00:17:10,960 I got to get out, you know?
So I was 2526 years old. I was in New York working in
journalism. I had a meeting with an editor
after I wrote an article and I didn't know what the meeting was
for. And he was kind of an alcoholic. 00:17:25,400 He was like on his second or
third martini at lunch. And he was said basically said,
Robert, you're not a good writer.
You're not going to make it in this world.
You need to go to Business School.
You're not disciplined. You're all over the place.
You don't understand your audience, right?
And so I could have like said fuck you.
I could have like stayed in journalism.
I probably would be dead by not probably be an alcoholic because
it wasn't right. But I listen to it and I go, you
know, there's something true there.
It isn't right. It isn't a good fit.
I'm hitting against a wall. You got to get out and I got to
try something else. But if you don't know who you
are, if you don't know what marked you as a weird person
when you were a child, then you're you're lost in life.
You have no radar. One thing that I tell people all
the time is, is I asked them, what's the form of pain that you
enjoy that most people can't tolerate, right?
Like it's. And you don't mean like in a
kinky way? No, not in a kinky way.
Not not. Yeah, well, you know, we don't
judge here at the Solar podcast, but but just.
Wanted to clear that up. Yeah, keep it at PG13.
Robert, sorry, what is the the challenge or struggle that that
you kind of relish like you kind of, you know, like I know for
me, I imagine it's similar for you, Like when I'm in the hole
with a book, when I'm like just deep, deep, deep in a mess of a
draft and I'm like agonizing through it.
I'm laying awake at night. Yeah, you know what I'm talking. 00:19:00,440 Right now, you know.
What I'm talking about, there's still kind of a sick part of me
that like, likes it. Yeah.
Like there's something thrilling about it.
Yeah. And.
And, and I think most people, they can't stomach it.
Whereas like in music school, I remember the moment I I decided
to drop out of music school, I remember I was practicing four
to six hours a day. On top, what did you play?
Guitar. So I was practicing four to six
hours a day on top of all my classes.
And I remember I went into one of my private tutors and tried
to play a song for him. And he just looked at me and
he's like, you know, your problem is you don't practice
enough. And like that was the moment I
was like, I'm done. I I'd like, I can't and.
And and and was the practice painful, but not in a good way.
Correct, Correct. It was, it was drudgery.
And it to me that was a very profound lesson, you know,
'cause I loved performing and I loved getting attention because
I could play some song or some solo, but I didn't like
practicing and. Musicianship is actually
practice all practices. It's the 99% practice, 1%
performance, right? So it it was a very painful
lesson of like, you think you like this, but you don't
actually like it. Wow, that's very interesting.
Yeah. Well, you know, when, when you
love something, when you really are, when you have that
connection like I'm talking about, then the practice, you,
you, you enjoy it. You enjoy learning because you
enjoy the process of getting better.
And you can feel your brain kind of tingling and things are
happening inside. And I tell people if you have
found the right path, if you are like an artist or creative and
you feel frustrated and you feel blocked, that's a good thing,
right? That little bit of pain, a
little bit of frustration, it's often the signal that you're
actually on the verge of turning into the right direction, you
know, because it's a signal that things aren't quite working out
and you're listening to it. But if you get anxious and you
don't listen to the frustration and you can't be creative, you
can't go into it, but you'll learn at a much higher rate and
you'll enjoy. Because anything, as I said in
mastery, everything involves a degree of pain, a degree of
practice, a degree of drudgery. There's nothing that's going to
come easy in life. So anything skill that you're
going to learn, it's going to involve that.
And if you're not connected to it in a deep lay way, like you
weren't with music, you're never going to get, you're never going
to learn fast enough, you know, and and you're just going to
drive, you're going to burnout too early.
So yeah. What about Robert?
What about reconnecting with that, that life task and going
back and finding that? Because I think you talked about
a lot of the negative signs. I, I think people can get stuck. 00:21:55,600 Everything is just a negative
sign. They're like, and they
completely forget. Mark you, you said that you got
disconnected from that at one point.
You kind of by chance stumble back into it.
Robert, it sounds like you kind of always knew you wanted to be
a writer of some kind. There are a lot of people who
just, they feel like I, they don't even know what that is to
begin with. So can you talk a little bit
more about like uncovering that that connection to your life
task? Well, it's a good you know, it's
a childhood or. Whatever, it's a good question.
Because a lot of people, they only know the negative.
They only know. And then you kind of beat up on
yourself and then you start doubting yourself and you think,
well, maybe there's nothing that I'm really good at.
Maybe I just need to go make a lot of money, which I'm not
against making money. I mean, I'm not telling people
to say, oh, I meant to be a poet, which you can't make a
living off of. You have to be able to put food
on the table if you're supporting a family, etcetera.
So being able to make a living is important, right?
But you don't have to compromise completely in that.
So fighting that positive element, well, the first thing
you have to do is it's a process.
And people are so impatient. They are so unused to being to
introspecting. And being able to introspect is
a very, very powerful tool. And what that means is you have
to be able to examine yourself. And in our culture, we're so
outer directed, we're so directed towards what other
people are doing to the social world that the idea of who am I,
what would I was I like as a child, what do I really love is
alien to people. I can't understand it because
I've always, I'm a very introspective person, but a lot
of people have a hard time with that concept.
And I encounter that when I try and counsel them.
So I tell people, you have to be patient.
It's not going to come in a light and a flash of wow, I was
meant to be a sculptor here where I go, OK, so you've got to
be patient. You got to take a book and you
have to make a journal, if that, you know, I think it works for a
lot of people. And you have to start going
through this process. And I tell people, look for the
signs of things that excited you, that excite you in a way
that you can't even really control because we live in a
culture that is so damn rational.
Everything is an algorithm. Everything is generated by data. 00:24:13,040 But this is a feel.
This is not data. This is a feel.
This is an intuition. This is something that excites
you in an intuitive way. And there's no algorithm in the
world that I could invent or any genius could invent to help you
find that. It's a feel, it's subtle, it's
inside of you. But if you can't go inside of
yourself, if you're so not into looking into who you are, all
the advice in the world will be, will be useless.
And I, and I tell people that I can't help you unless you're
willing to go through that process.
And some of that examining is tough.
Some of it is, yeah, I had a rough childhood.
Yeah. I, I, I had these fantasies, but
they weren't necessarily positive.
You're going to come upon negative things, you know?
And I had, you know, I had a lot of negative things in my
childhood too. So you have to be willing to go
through that, that digging. You're like an archaeologist
with your own past. You're digging in there looking
for the signs and they're there. When you were five years old,
four years old, you were naturally excited by certain
things. The other thing I tell people is
we've got to get away from this idea of intelligence as just
being intellectual. There's a book I recommend to a
lot of people. I've probably over recommended
it by Howard Gardner called the frames of the five frames of
intelligence. I'm probably, I'm always
misquoting, but it's something like that.
You'll find it. And he's basically a, a, a
neuroscientist. He's a scientist of some sort.
And he said there are 5 forms of intelligence.
There's kind of a mathematical intelligence that's do with pad. 00:25:51,680 It's often related to music.
There's a social intelligence that has to deal with dealing
with people. There is kinetic intelligence,
which is moving the body, right? Sports or or dance or whatever.
There's word intelligence. There's that kind.
There's another one, I, I can't remember what it is, imagery or
something like that. Every brain has that natural
inclination towards one of these intelligences, right?
And you have that as well. I compare it to like a grain
that's inside of you and that you have to move with that
grain. You have to find it.
And it's one of these forms of intelligence.
You have it, yes, you can have two, but if you have two or
three, it starts. I don't know, you're going to
get a little bit lost. You're a polymath and that maybe
you're a genius or maybe you're just confused, but you've got to
find that one thing, right? And if it's sports, if it's
dance, that's intelligence. Kobe Bryant, my, my idol,
because I love basketball. He's as intelligent as as he's a
Michelangelo on the basketball court.
You know, it's intelligence. Parents like to say, well, no, I
you've got to go to law school, you've got to be this.
You got to be an academic and blah, blah, blah.
No, it's whatever is that grain of your brain that is natural.
You've got to find that. And so don't think in terms of I
want to be this specific job or whatever, think in terms of what
is that natural form that my brain is veers towards.
And now if you know that you're somebody who has a mathematical,
abstract, mechanical like brain, all right, let's go into that.
Let's go deeper now. Let's find if you're an engineer
or if you're a musician or OK, but you got to go back and you
got to dig. I could go on for hours about
some of the process that I go through people.
That should give you an idea of some of the positive things that
you can do. Yeah.
But it is a a process. That's what I like about it.
It's not the lightning bolt, like you said, it's not.
No. And it also never completely
ends, it's not like. No for sure.
You don't just like find the thing and you're like, cool, I'm
set. Like it.
There's every 5-10 years something happens in your life
or you evolve or you change a little bit or definitely your
preferences change. You know, so it's, it is, it's a
perpetual thing for sure. You know, some people like they
get tired of the thing they've been doing for 10/15/20 years
and then they go try something different.
And I often counsel you don't want to go like, you know,
you're a writer and now, oh, no, I'm going to be like AI don't
know, choose something totally irrelevant from that.
Whatever grammar or something. Yeah, OK, that's not you should
you should go off in a different direction within writing or
something, right. And so you get bored and the
boredom either means I've got to change my job or means I have to
change something within my job. And I prefer the something
within my job. So I'll I personally deal with
it is every book that I write is on a completely different
subject. I never repeat the same book
twice. I'm on to something that is not
the book I'm writing now. People are going to be shocked
because it's completely different from anything I've
ever written. So I don't get bored.
I'm constantly challenging myself.
Yeah, yeah. Cool.
We will be right back. You've probably heard of, seen
or read this book. I'm Mark Manson, the author of
said book. After I became a New York Times
bestseller, I wanted to do something else that wasn't just
writing another book, so I launched your next breakthrough. 00:29:25,400 It's a free e-mail newsletter
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All right, we're back. So Robert, we do a segment that
Drew and I love called brilliant or bullshit, which is we take
recent scientific research, surveys, new theories, things
that have kind of become popular become talked about and we
discuss whether we think it's brilliant or whether it's
bullshit. So we want to, we want to
include you on this round. We want to hear your opinion.
We have something selected. Yes, for this brilliant or
bullshit, Robert, we're talking about Peter Pan Syndrome now.
There's a lot of of talk about how men are checking out.
They're not getting jobs, not getting educated, not committing
to long term relationships. Home playing video games Playing
video porn. Vaping, watching porn.
Yeah, there's a female version of it too, called the Cinderella
syndrome. But it's the, the Peter Pan
syndrome is really the in the zeitgeist more and more.
And actually there are some recent studies that are trying
to quantify this and, and, and label it a, a, wouldn't say
diagnosable syndrome, but they do call it a syndrome and they
suggest therapy for it. What I would like to ask you,
first of all, do you think it calling it a syndrome is
brilliant or bullshit? I think I know what you would
think about that. But what do you think the main
drivers really are? Is there a problem of prolonged
adolescence? What are the drivers of that
prolonged adolescence? Should we be therapizing it so
much too? Well, you know, syndrome, yeah,
that's a bit a bullshit. It's a bit like people like to
talk about things these days because everybody's an
individual. Everybody has their own
childhood, their own background, their own reasons for wanting to
stay in adolescence. And there are plenty of people
in my generation, particularly in my generation, who got stuck
in adolescence and they're still stuck there.
So it's not as necessarily endemic just to Gen.
Z. It's a phenomenon that has
existed. I'm not saying forever, but
certainly not. But since the reign of popular
culture, probably since the 1950's, the Peter Pan phenomena
has become more and more pronounced.
And what was the second part of the question?
What do you think's driving it? Oh yeah, right.
Well, I mean, as I said, everybody's going to be
different. I know that's not a good answer
for you, but I think a lot of it is.
It's a very strange time to be a male, to be a boy, to be a man.
It's very confusing time. And so I think that's a lot of
the source of it. Because when I was growing up,
I'm sounding like I'm 100 years old when I was 30I hated hearing
that stupid ass expression when I walked 12 miles to school in
the snow. Anyway, you know, there was
there was this. Being a male was a obviously
positive because it was very male oriented culture.
But you know, it was there was no sense of confusion about it
really, although some people were confused and there's
nothing wrong with that. But you know, there were icons
in sports in in movies, you know, the kind of the rugged
masculine hero. But he in all aspects of life.
You know, I remember as a kid, I was, I'm so old that as a
three-year old, I can remember John F Kennedy on the
television. You know, that that guy that I
was fascinated by him. I thought this was, it was a man
who was very commanding. He was a president.
But there was also a weird kind of softness to him, like a
strange poetic side to it. I drew me in.
There were these icons. And so you didn't feel you
wanted to grow out of adolescence.
You wanted to become a man. You wanted to enter the world
and be and kind of follow in the footsteps of some of these
people that you admired. But now it's like being man,
being a male, being a masculine is almost ugly.
It's dirty. It's almost like something you
have to wipe off your skin. Oh, you know, toxic masculinity. 00:33:41,920 But you know, there's something
you have to say about testosterone.
It can turn ugly, but it's drives you and makes you do
things. It's got a positive element.
It gives you ambition. It makes you go out and do
things 12,000 years ago, it made you go hunt mastodons and kill
them with your with your other members, right.
There should be positive things about being a, a man.
And so then I don't want to stay in adolescence.
I want to don't want to stay in this little cocoon with my mommy
and my daddy in my home playing games.
I want to go out in the world. I want to conquer.
I want to have ambition. I think the root of the problem
is that there's no kind of positive masculinity out there,
and so it doesn't give people an incentive to get out of that
little kind of adolescent cocoon, right?
I agree 100%. It's funny, we were joking
around about Doctor K at the beginning of the show, but I
think one of the reasons why he's become so popular is
there's this whole demographic of young men who were kind of
checked out and they're playing video games all day.
And he's one of the only popular mental health voices that
speaking directly to them saying, hey, you're playing too
many video games. Let's talk about it.
How can like, how can we get you back out in the world?
I definitely see, you know, a big portion of my audience as
younger men. I definitely have noticed this
over recent years and and I'm becoming a little alarmed by it. 00:35:10,680 I agree that there's there's a
lack of clear role models. There's a lack of there's
there's not a road map, right? Like it's not obvious to a a 17
year old male who to be who they want to grow into right.
And that's, that's difficult and confusing.
And then I think the ease of checking out today is.
Exactly. Is so much.
I mean, I struggle. I mean, I'll download a game on
my phone and, and I'll be lost for two hours, right?
Like, yeah, it's, it's tough, man.
It's so it's like, and I've got a fully developed prefrontal
cortex. Like imagine an 18 year old like
he's fucked. So it's, it's I, I really,
really sympathize with a lot of the young guys today.
And, and it's, I definitely see it as a problem.
It does seem to be a a growing problem.
The syndrome thing makes me uncomfortable and I'm curious
what your thoughts are on on kind of this.
There seems to be a little bit of a recent tendency to like
medicalize everything and especially things that were just
kind of not normal behavior, but not necessarily abnormal
behavior, say 20 or 30 years ago either.
Like what? Like a Peter Pan syndrome.
Like, like when I was, I remember when I was in college,
we used me and my friends, we used to go out with this guy who
was around, He was a divorced guy around 50, a ton of fun,
awesome dude. And we used to go out in the
parties and clubs with him and, and we used to joke like, yeah,
it's Peter Pan over there, you know, like, but he was, you
know, he was in this phase of his life.
He'd just gotten out of a marriage, and you know he was.
Well, you can be a functional Peter Pan.
Totally. There are a lot of, there are a
lot of people out there who are, you know, people like Bill
Clinton was a functional Peter Pan.
Yeah, I see them all the time. It's the boomer generation.
I'm a little bit younger than that.
Yeah. It's full of very functional
Peter Pan's. I'm a functional Peter Pan.
Very true. It's very true.
I've got. Accused of the same as well,
yeah. So I mean, well, this is exactly
my point, right? Is that that until, I guess a
few years ago, this was just kind of like something that you
would casually talk about in conversation or like, Oh yeah,
he's a bit of a Peter Pan. You know he still goes up the
clubs. And now fifty.
Yeah, there's researchers. Now there's a syndrome Syndrome. 00:37:27,360 Social problem.
Making recommendations to therapists.
Are they actually like medicating people for this?
No, not, not that I know of. Yet this the the paper that kind
of operationalized this as an actual psychological phenomenon. 00:37:41,760 You know, it's in 2021 and they
don't give any recommendations for like medications or anything
like that, but they do say therapists who are seeing this
all around the world should be aware of it.
And to me that just, I'm not sure about that.
Yeah, I mean, we can't send all of our kids to therapists, you
know? And also, you know, it's like,
there's too much talking going on in this culture, not enough
acting. I fucking love that.
I just want to like, take that clip.
It's just that's the episode. There's too much talking.
It's I know where you're going, but it's so true.
It's sorry. Continue No, no, no, but
sometimes you just got to get off your ass and you got to act. 00:38:28,760 You got to do things in this
world. And that's the best therapy in
the world, you know. So I make the analogy in, in my
book and in some of my talks that I see power, the power and
and the life out there in, in our in our work world as a game. 00:38:48,680 It is a power game and I frame
it that way and you're maneuvering.
You're constantly maneuvering. It's this fluid game that you're
playing with the parameters nobody really sets.
The rules aren't that aren't very clear cut, but there are
certain laws, laws of power that you can operate to to get ahead. 00:39:06,720 It's the most amazing game you
could ever play and you should enjoy and you should have fun.
Well, you know, let's start talking about things like that,
that like life is a game. Get out there and be active.
You know, when it comes to dating, stop all this bullshit
with your phone, go out to bars, go to supermarkets, pick up.
Learn how to pick up on women. Learn how to get over your fears
and actually interact with them. So start acting and stop talking
and stop over analyzing things, but actually act in the world.
That's to me the greatest therapy in the world.
I, I, I as someone who, for better or worse, kind of
operates within the self help industry, this is, this is my
personal pet peeve. It's the thing that drives me
insane is, is there's seems to be, there's so much emphasis put
on awareness, Like let's be aware of our problems.
Let's be aware of our emotional issues.
Let's be aware of our mental health problem, you know, and
it's, it's people treat that as an end of it in itself.
Like, well, the fact that we're sitting around talking about our
trauma and our baggage, you know?
We're doing the work. They even call it that, doing
the work. And I'm with you.
I'm like, OK, that's great. We can talk until we're blue in
the face. But until you actually go and
behave differently, until your behavior has shifted in some
tangible way, what is it? What?
What is it meant? What are we doing?
Well, I don't know if I can remember it exactly right
because it's about a chapter I was writing just a few months
ago, and I've already forgotten it.
But there was a psychologist professor at UCLA named
Schwartz. I forget his first name.
His study was OCD, right? This is back in the 80s when
people were first calling it a syndrome.
And so much of the therapy was a talking therapy, right?
And giving them these, these certain ideas about let's talk
about, let's figure it out. He came up with these action
strategies. He literally had you go out and
do things that were your biggest fear, because OCD is all about
fear, right? So if you're afraid of germs, go
out and rub your hand in some dirt or whatever.
You had them do this. Over time, he took brain scans
and their brains were literally changing.
The brain was rewiring itself through these action strategies. 00:41:26,600 So when you take action, your
brain changes. It adapts.
That's how the human brain is. But if you're always internal,
if you're just talking about things, none of that stuff is
going on because it's not. It's not how our brains are
wired. Yeah, And it's, I feel like the
danger in it is that it can like, let's say you and I have a
very profound conversation. It gives you the illusion that
something has changed, even though we're still sitting in
the same damn couch doing the exact same thing we were doing
30 minutes ago. Right.
And so I, I see that all the time that that so much of, of
this industry is just built around giving people the
sensation of having a change happen without any necessary
behavior shifting. I'm going through something
similar to you, like questioning and wondering about the the self
help thing and whether I'm just part of that problem as well,
whether I'm just a bunch of words.
But I think that at least I know that my approach is to give
people maps on how to act. Yeah, and I'm very much against
overanalyzing and talking things to death.
Yeah, and it's talking is necessary, but not sufficient.
No, definitely not. Yeah.
For sure. Great.
All right, We solve Peter Pan syndrome.
We'll be right back. Hey everybody, Mark here quick
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It does mean a lot to us. I'm a state, motherfuckers.
And we're back. All right, We've got, we've got
questions for Robert. We do, but we do we have some
some listener questions. This one actually came in from
Spotify and Mark and I recently did an episode on behavioral
change and there was this big study where some psychologists
came up with all these interventions to get people to
go to the gym more. And it turns out they were
terrible at it came up with. Who's terrible at it?
The the psychologists were terrible at, at coming up with
these interventions that would work.
And we got a question in response to this that I think
was a really good one for you, Robert.
It comes from Ian, who says as as bad as modern psychology is
at helping people, is our current best bet given that it's
at least based on science? Or is this the wrong approach
given that science doesn't tell us what's right and wrong and we
should instead turn to things like timeless philosophy?
Basically the question is, is like what's the value of science
and behavioral intervention specifically in our lives?
You mentioned a little bit already that you were skeptical
of how we don't need all this data to make a decision or we
need we need some sort of guidance from above to help us
make these decisions. What's your what's your take on
this? Well, I mean it is it related to
like something like going to the gym or exercising or what is it
relation? To that was what the question
was, but I think the larger question is how much should we
lean on science or you know, the behavioural science academia in
general, I think for improving our lives.
Well, I'm old school, you know, I'm an old guy.
Let's let's slot, you know, call spade a spade here.
And I think it's bullshit. I mean, look what happens with
big data and with algorithms, and we've seen it with Facebook
early on, is you think that you're accumulating big data
about how people actually are, but what you're actually doing
is you're changing who people are.
You're changing their behaviour because now you're feeding them
the very algorithms that you think that they are that involve
their behaviour, and then you're turning them into lemmings.
Everyone a herd, everyone's now going to be responding the same
way, but you're an individual. It all starts with who you are
as a as a as a human being, as an individual born into your
body with your parents with your background, with your genetics.
OK, big data doesn't have anything to do with it doesn't
know what that is AI can't possibly see into that.
So I'm more of the timeless wisdom type person, but I really
think you have to know who you are in a gut way.
And you know, we're talking about awareness and talking and
talking has it has its value, as we were saying, as we were
talking. But there's also this very
important gut element of knowing what you know, what makes you
different, what motivates you, what what you were meant to
accomplish, what you hate, what you love.
And if you're constantly looking for science and big data and
algorithms to solve all your problems, well, they're not
because you're running away from the only source of your, of your
salvation, which is you as an individual.
I'm going to sound like a, a, a nutty preacher.
We do not have enough individuals in this world.
We do not have enough weirdos. We do not have enough people who
are happy to be unique and different.
And no amount of AI, in fact, all of that stuff is turning you
into just a glob, a big social glob on social media where
everybody is the same. Everybody is told to respond
like little mice to this algorithm, to this algorithm and
that we're turning into something that's not human.
Yeah. So I'll shut up.
But that's sort of my. Answer we'll take, we'll take
your soapbox away now. No, I I sympathize with this a
lot. It's interesting.
Early in my career, my career kind of began around the
confluence of positive psychology.
There was this whole movement in the 2000s of positive psychology
where a lot of psychologists felt like they were able to
quantify happiness and, and, and deduce exactly which practices
LED you to, to, to be happier and feel more fulfilled in your
life. And, you know, I was young, I
was naive. I bought fully into it hook,
line and sinker. I wrote tons of articles around
positive psychology research and everything.
And it's been interesting because over the past ten years
or so, something like 80% of those studies don't replicate
like they don't like, they're, they're insufficient sample
sizes. They, they, they can't be
reproduced in other studies. And so it, it were, we're kind
of back to square one of like, oh, actually, we don't know what
makes us happy and we don't know how much willpower we have and
we don't know how much motivation is external versus
internal. And like it, it's, it's giving
me a, a much deeper, more profound appreciation for the
timeless things, you know, the, that the simple principles,
whether it's the Stoics or the Buddhists or the Christians,
like if it's been around for 2000 years, there's probably
something to it. And so we should maybe put a
little bit. More Well, I mean, if you think
about, I tell people this all the time, if you think about
2000, if you only go back 200 years ago, I like to go back to
the world of the writer Jane Austen in like the 1810s.
You have no Internet, you have no television, you have no
radio. You have no, your only form of
entertainment is people. So you're constantly interacting
with people day in and day out. That's your only salvation.
That's the only thing you have to distract you from the misery
of your life, right? So people become these
incredible observers, right? And then they write about it.
I'm not saying everybody, but the, the, the great
philosophers, the thinkers, the writers, the novelists, they're
so keyed into people and who they are that they see things
that we're no longer capable of seeing because we're so
disoriented, right? We're not human.
As I said, we're not so human anymore.
So that's why someone like Plato or Socrates could have this
timeless wisdom, because they're wandering around with in their
sandals and togas, just constantly interacting with
other people, thinking about issues that we don't think about
anymore because we take everything for granted.
We've lost our sense of wonder. So yeah, I'm, look, I studied
classics, Greek and ancient Greek and Latin.
That's my world. I find when I read something
from that time, I feel like I'm traveling to another planet.
I'm so amazed. I'm so astounded by what their
insights, what they're saying, what they're talking about
humans, about our senses, about what it just means to be alive.
So kind of losing track of what our question is, but.
I love it. Science versus philosophy.
Science versus wisdom, Data versus wisdom.
It sounds like we're all team wisdom.
Yeah. But going back to what you said
about we need more individuals, I think I found this in in
myself when I was, I studied psychology, I studied, I was in
academia for a little while too. So I got very much, I was like,
yes, everything should be data-driven.
And for the longest time, you know, for instance, Mark
mentioned willpower. How much willpower do we have?
Well, we thought this was this little finite resource that we
had to like parcel out and distribute throughout our lives
in, in strategic ways. Well, it turns out if you
believe that you don't have a lot of willpower, you probably
don't. And I see this over and over and
over again. I'm going down the laundry list
of things that I've believed for so long.
I'm, you know, extrinsic and intrinsic motivation that could
be complete bullshit too. I'm externally motivated by a
lot of things. Is that such a bad thing?
No, it's not. It reminds me there's so much
like recursive stuff in psychology.
It reminds me of a there's a great one liner from the
comedian Emo Phillips where he said he said I used to think the
brain was the most amazing thing in the universe.
Then I then I remembered who was telling me that.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, but I mean, 100 years
ago there was this more than 100 years, this man named William
James, a psychologist. Big fans.
He wrote things about willpower that blow all of this bullshit
in our culture now out of the water.
He nailed it perfectly. If you want to understand will
and the power that you have through your willpower, go read
William James and throw all those studies out.
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that.
Here, here. What else do we got?
Yes, we do have some more questions.
So these came in, we asked asked people to ask you questions.
One of them will kind of give out their true self.
One, what is your recommended process to get back to 1's true
self after getting lost, exhausted and cynical and
midlife? 40 laws came out when you were
like 38 or 9 right you? Were 39.
Yeah, So you were older. We have a lot of people like I'm
35, my life is over, what do I do?
I felt that way pretty much too when I was 35.
Well, you know, as I said, everyone's different and I don't
know where this person comes from, but hopefully in that
period up until you're age 35, you have done something with
your life. You have learned some skills,
you have followed some kind of career path.
It just wasn't the right one. OK, But you can't just junk all
of that and suddenly start over. You have to build from what you
already have, right? It's kind of an organic process. 00:52:40,400 You can't just suddenly start
with from a blank slate and say I'm going to go completely
redraw the course of my life. You're setting yourself up for a
misery because it's not how world works.
You have a brain, it has developed certain things, it has
functioned in a certain way and it has accumulated some level of
skill. So where can we apply that skill
that fits you better? So when you're 2223, that
process that you we went through earlier on, it fits more.
But now you're 35, you're 36. It's a, it's a different
process. And if you're 50, it's even more
different process. If you're 70, I don't think
there is any process anymore. So, but I've tried to see in
that, in the seeds of who you are, the 35 year old, where it
went wrong. And so I like to go back to
people and sort of go back where they felt like they made a wrong
turn. And often where they made a
wrong turn was they decided on a career, either because it was
money and they needed the money or because people told them that
this is what they should go into, right.
Like your parents, A lot of people who end up becoming
lawyers, I don't mean to pick on lawyers because we need lawyers,
obviously, but they go into law school for that purpose to make
money. And then they kind of burn out
because law, a certain kinds of law just just are so repetitive
and there's no and after you turn 35, which I'm trapped in
this thing, it's so bored. So turned out.
So we've got to go back and figure out where you made your
wrong turn and off it's because you listen to someone else or
you grab for money. All right, so you grab for money
because you're anxious. You feel like you you you don't
know if you're going to be make it in this world.
You need that you need to eat and you're worried about your
future and your career. OK, so if you're 35 and you made
a wrong turn and you still have that anxiety about making money,
we have to prescribe something that fits you.
I don't like telling people to do things that are going to ruin
them, going to make them miserable, that can potentially
really screw up their future. I'm very sensitive to that.
So if money is very important to you, we have to take that path
that you're on. We have to deviate it a little
bit in a slightly different direction.
And I talked to people about that and we've we go back into
their childhood. We go back into things that
indicate more of where they would like to be.
And even if you're like flipping burgers at at in and out,
there's going to be some other path slightly different from
that that will still be better than where you are right now.
OK, So if the money thing isn't so important, if you're not so
anxious that we have a little bit more latitude to explore and
go into something that deviation just have to be like this.
It could be more like that, but it can't be like this.
OK, so everything depends on who you are.
Your psychology and your level of anxiety plays a very
important role in this because making these changes can be very
frightening. I once had some some guy who was
in his mid 20s who was basically trapped at a terrible job, kind
of like a a fast food type job. And I was very sensitive.
He had a fan, he had a wife and some kids.
And I said, all right, we figured out what he really
wanted, what he was really excited about, which was great
because you never do figure that out.
And I said, don't quit your job, but I want you to start studying
this new field on the Internet, absorbing it at night in the one
or two hours that you have free. And then I want you to go to
night school and spend maybe work four days a week and spend
some time there. You still can pave your, your
bills and go to night school. He said just the thought of
doing that made him feel 1000 times better.
That there was some kind of hope that there was a path, right.
So you got to be, I've got to work with the individual and
what, what where they are, you know, and and and and deal with
the anxiety about making a living.
Yeah, totally. I, I one thing for sure is I
think people definitely underestimate how much a small
shift. I think it's when they feel
emotionally overwhelmed because the emotion is so
all-encompassing. They assume that they just have
to throw everything out and start over from scratch.
Whereas it's like if you just shift a couple things in the
right direction, it's like Domino's, it knocks it, it, it
has like a reverberating effect across your life.
It was really interesting, though.
We ran a survey maybe three or four months ago on our audience
and one of the questions we asked purely out of curiosity
was just what are you struggling with right now?
Like what is your the biggest struggle in your life?
And it was very interesting. Among the middle age cohort, say
people in their 40s and 50s, one of the most common responses was
people saying, I have a great career, I've got a great family,
great spouse. Is this it?
I kind of want to just disappear and go to Tahiti and start over. 00:58:06,480 Like they, they, they, they kind
of had a little bit of this midlife.
This can't be it, right? Like there has to be more and
almost like a little bit of a panic that that went on.
And I'm curious what you what your thoughts with somebody like
that would be? Well, my thought is for those of
you out there who are in your 20s, do not get to that point,
damn it. Don't ever let that happen to
you because it will happen to you.
And it's terrible. It's tragic, right?
So don't let that happen. Figure it out before then.
But some of it is like unrealistic.
I mean, if you're in your mid 40s and you've got all these
things that you said, maybe you have to find, maybe you have to
kind of accept it and find some beauty in it.
Now, this will sound completely irrelevant and off track here,
but six years ago I suffered a stroke, right?
And prior to that stroke, I was somebody that swam every 3rd
day, rode a mountain bike up into the hills and hiked and
other things. I was just very active because
it was my main way of stressing overnight.
All of that is taken away from me, right?
I can't walk, I can't hike, I can't swim.
I can't take even a simple walk. I'm not trying to get pity, but
I'm saying, you know, it's it. I had to go through.
I had to adapt. And what I had to do is I
meditate every day and I had to go through this process and I'm
writing a book right now and I had to find what is beautiful
without being cliched or, or, or Pollyannish about it.
What is beautiful about my life as it is.
These are my circumstances. This is, you know, what if I was
punished or whatever happened, it happened.
It's just who I am now. I am this person who can't walk. 01:00:05,440 That's who I am.
But. I'm still able to think, I'm
still able to write books. I'm still able to find beauty in
my limited world. Yes, I wish I was an athlete.
Yes, I wish I could do the things I did before.
That doesn't help me at all. So my advice to someone maybe in
that era is become a little more Zen and find a little bit more
of the beauty in your life as it is.
And don't be thinking that there's some golden ring out
there that it 4548 some hot model that you can run off to
with Tahiti and start over and, you know, have new, you know
what else the Peter. Pan syndrome, yeah, there's
definitely there's a connection there for sure.
You you could almost say I like A to a certain degree.
Maturity is the the acceptance of your own limitedness, I
think. Yeah, you know.
I mean, you can get too accepting.
Yeah, that's. True.
You can get complacent, which is different.
Yeah, yeah. No, we've talked about a lot
about that, though. I think there's a gratitude
piece in that where acknowledging just your
existence is a miracle, first of all.
And I've leaned the older I get, the more this, the simple things
around me are very much like this is amazing.
There. There's literally, that's going
to sound like I'm gloating, but there are literally days where
I'm like, I'm one of the luckiest people on the planet.
If you are luckiest. Person on the planet.
You are. Yeah, so it.
That's the subject of my new book It, by the way.
Oh. It is OK.
Oh, we outed you. OK.
Good. Luck or gratitude?
No, neither. It's about.
Drew, Bernie. That would be shocking.
The. Biography The unauthorized
biography of Drew Bernie. Everybody would be shocked by
that. No, it's, it's a book about the
sublime. Yeah.
That's it. That's the word I.
Want to so you know, I'm trying to say I have a chapter called
Awaken to the strangeness of being alive.
And so like, being alive is a very strange thing.
It's so weird, you know, It's so weird.
To think that in this vast universe, there's life here on
this one tiny little, little, tiny little thing in this vast
ocean of darkness, and we're here.
And do you know the chances of your parents ever coming
together and reproducing, Drew? You can never calculate it.
It's impossible because you know, your parents met on some
quirk of fate, right? And they may have never met.
Multiply that by 7080 thousand. All the generations that went
prior to them meeting. Yes.
Maybe a title part of you might have been born if that had gone
off 70,000 years ago differently, but it wouldn't be
you at all. Who you are is is the strangest
thing you could possibly think of.
So it's a book about triggering those kinds of thoughts and
people about everything around them.
Because for me, writing that book is like, live or die.
I don't start thinking like that.
I'm just going to get so goddamn depressed I'll kill myself.
I have to think about these things, you know?
Well, there were there were several questions people asking
when is the next book coming out?
So when is that book coming out? Every author's favorite.
Question. The worst question ever.
You. Know you know.
The people want to know though. Sounds like you're in the midst
of the throes of writing it. So there are 12 chapters.
I'm on chapter 10 and I was hoping, hoping you'd be out next
year, but I won't. I'm not getting my act together. 01:03:38,760 So 2026, OK, it'll be out in two
years. OK if I don't die before then.
But if I die, they'll still be able to get the book out because
I have enough of it out finished so.
Well, we'll look forward to it. We'll have to have you back.
We'll sit and bask in the miracle of life together.
With you. I'm really looking forward to
that one, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a weird
book. It's like my wife says, it's
kind of like taking drugs without drugs.
Yes, it's funny because when we were sitting here talking about
how weird life was, I was like, man, we sound like a bunch of
stone kids in a close. Yeah, Door.
Isn't it so weird we're alive? That's the kind of thing that
you. Yeah, I know.
I remember seeing that totally smoking some pot, Yeah.
Yeah, we did not drop any acid for this.
Episode. Yeah, there was.
This was a sober episode. Yeah, maybe we should.
Maybe next time. That's the next time.
All right. Thank you so much, Robert.
Thank you, Mark. It was a pleasure.
Thank you, Robert. Thank you.
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew
Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. 01:04:41,800 Jessica Choi is our videographer
and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we
will see you next week.