Sabrina, welcome. What's up, Mark?
It's so good to have you here. I'm.
So excited. I I'm excited too because so
we've had the podcast for about a year.
We've done maybe like half a dozen episodes on relationships
dating had had dating experts on and Drew's still single.
I don't know what's wrong with him.
It's a. Problem.
I'm hoping you can tell me by the end of our problem at this.
Point. Great, so in the next 30.
We're supposed to be giving advice that works.
And come on, Drew. Oh, Drew, I've so many
questions. It's the Subtle Art of Not
Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.
Where am I supposed to go? He's he's speechless.
He's actually speechless. This would be fun if I'm like,
OK, Drew, let's go. So tell me mom and dad, right?
Like we'd all start. So let's not go there.
How about we talk about you? How did you get into this whole
crazy world of dating, online dating, social media?
What was your story behind all that?
So my story is a little bit like not traditional.
Like I went to, I moved to New York when I was 19 to go to
acting school and I was like, I wasn't very good at it.
And then went to fashion, worked in fashion for like 8-9 years
and just fucking hated it. Like truth be told.
And in 2017, my mom went to the doctor with a headache and then
she had six brain aneurysms and they gave her like no chance of
survival. And she came out OK.
And it was like a true miracle. And so that was when I started
therapy and started to understand like, holy shit, your
mindset, even though you're given all of the terrible and
negative could actually really be used for your positive
because you can really get through things if depending on
where you shift. Don't get me wrong, I still
didn't get it at this time. I just was starting to
understand that. And then Fast forward, I was
working, I started my clothing company software and was doing
things. And then 2022, I was supposed to
be on Shark Tank. I am single in LA and it was at
that moment where I started to realize like my anxiety was
just, it was getting worse. It wasn't really getting any
better. And all of these things that we
were ingesting were just constant like click bait or do
this to get this or manipulation.
Like there was no accountability, there was no
self-awareness. And I was ingesting it.
And so I was dating and doing and I was on set for Shark Tank
and I got sent home after 12 hours and I my life kind of like
came crashing and I was like, I've got nothing.
I don't know what I'm going to do.
And a friend of mine was like, hey, man, you give really good
dating advice. Like you're always on podcasts.
I think you should try. And so of course, I had my own
limiting beliefs being like, no one cares about me.
And I was just like, you know what, what do I have to lose?
So I had like my Miley Cyrus Hannah Montana moment.
I was like, TikTok will be 1 persona and then Instagram is
like the professional and then the TikTok blew up.
I started my podcast January 2023 and was like, let's let me
give people what I've received from therapy and different
modalities that actually moves the needle.
And then we'll lead you to the results of like what it is that
you want, but it starts and ends with you.
And so I think that's really what motivated me to start this.
And then it continued on by just putting out content and then
organically seeing millions of people resonate with it.
And I think at this point, like, that's why, Mark, I love your
content so much, because I think it's important that we cut
through the bullshit and actually like give the advice
that people need, not what they want to hear.
Yeah. What it what has been the
biggest surprise? Because I imagine after after
your audience kind of blew up and things took off, you got
deluged with questions, problems, life stories.
Like what has been the biggest surprise to you of what you hear
from people? I think the biggest surprise is
how there's so many in my brain is like in six different ways.
But I think what comes to mind first is how so many people
really don't understand that. Like, they have so much more
power and agency than they give themselves credit for.
And if we really just understood like, hey, man, you're just
dysregulated. Like that's why you feel like
you're going to die. That's why you feel all of this.
But I think so many people really are stuck in a place and
without really understanding, like, how do you tap into that?
I'm seeing so much power just given away every single day of
like, I'll get these emails of like pages of how this person's
just the worst human being. Like, there is nothing
redeeming. But at the end it's like, but I
still love them, what do I do? And so I think it's.
You know, it's God knows. So I think that's the shock for
me is how little people understand, like realize that
you have so much power within you.
If you actually fucking take control and ownership of you and
how you present yourself to people, it will change the way
you date and have experiences. Yeah.
Well, OK, let's that's a perfect spot then for the fuck of the
week, we have this segment called the Fuck of the week.
What are we giving a fuck about? What are we not giving a fuck
about? And I want to dive right into it
with you with attachment styles, which is right right along that
lane. How much of A fuck should we
give about our attachment style going into this there?
There's kind of been a introduction of that language
into the kind of a popular culture.
And I think a lot of people are aware of it, but I think a lot
of people only have a surface level understanding of it.
And sometimes we get, I know for me anyway, I'm like, oh, I'm
avoidant. And then it became a self
fulfilling prophecy. How much of A fuck should we
really give about our attachment styles?
What do you think? I think if we're looking like a
one to 100, right, if I would say like 30% and I know that
people would be like what Elizabeth, you talk about this,
It's like, yeah, attachment styles are so you understand
yourself. Attachment styles are so that
you can be like, oh cool, I'm not crazy.
Like when I found out about anxious attachment, I was like,
oh, there's a name for it, OK, that this is and it's a
blueprint for me to be able to heal right and go, OK, where did
I learn this from? Oh, what's the behaviour of
someone that's anxious? Like, got it.
This is how that navigates when I met my partner who's more
avoidant. It's not about I'm diagnosing
you. You're the worst person in the
world. It's OK.
I understand that how I might behave would interact and you'll
get triggered and things like that.
I think we give way too many fucks on people like diagnosing
others of like my avoidant, my narcissist.
And it's like, whoa, whoa, you know so much about them that
they're an avoidant or a narcissist, but yet we're still
here. Attachment styles.
I think there's been a misconception.
I think a lot of people confuse like an avoidant attachment
style with like avoidant personality disorder, right?
2 completely different things. Avoidant, like any attachment
style is really just how did you connect with your caregivers?
And that's how, how did you attune right?
Learn the attunement. Somebody's secure, right?
For anybody who's maybe not sure, we've got four major ones.
Yeah, let's do. That yeah, right.
You know, for argument's sake, there's like 4 biggies.
There's the secure and then there's the three insecure.
So the secure attached person comes from a home where they
were taught that like love is safe, love is something that you
can give and receive. They have an understanding of
independence and interdependence, right?
So it's like you're not afraid of conversations.
You know that it's important to speak up because you were raised
in a home where your feelings mattered, your thoughts
mattered. That's the pinnacle We all want
to get to, well, enjoy climbing the mountain.
Then we go to the insecure attachment styles and we've got
three major ones. Of course, there's
amalgamations, but we've got the avoidant, we've got the anxious,
and we have the disorganized. The avoidant attachment is when
triggered, right? This isn't that like this person
just avoids conversation when triggered, which it triggers
acute to your nervous system that you're in danger.
Something happens that to someone else might not be a big
deal. You go inwards, right?
To people that are avoidant, the messaging early on was like,
emotions aren't safe. You could be potentially like
ridiculed or judged for having emotions.
Maybe you had emotionally unavailable parents, so there
was a discomfort with someone else's emotions and expressing
your own. Then the flip side of it, we go
to the anxious right? I'm hi, nice to meet you.
Stand up and be counted. Yeah, yeah.
So the poster child of it and essentially what that means,
it's like inconsistency, right? I had a a narcissistic father
and a people pleasing mother. I had a father that was always
in and out. So what did I learn?
Some love is not safe. I have to scream and yell for
it. I have to earn it right?
And so the anxious attacher is so uncomfortable in their own
body. I need you to tell me I'm going
to be OK. So it's a lot of codependency in
that regard. Then the disorganizes like that
amalgamation. You've ever seen someone that's
a super push pill. One minute they're amazing and
then the next you're like, I feel like I don't know who you
are. That's the disorganized.
They want love so they'll come closer and then they're
terrified of the rejection of the intimacy and they pull away.
The reason it's important that we understand where these
manifest is because people will be like, Drew, you're an
avoidant. And it's like, I'm sorry, how
did you know that about me? I haven't been triggered with
you versus, hey, you just don't share anything.
It's like, well, maybe that person's just an asshole, right?
Like they don't have to be any attachment style.
I've been called that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're not mutually exclusive, correct?
But yeah, like, moral of the story is like, I think
attachment styles are important so you understand yourself and
you understand how your triggers manifest in other people.
And also so that we have some self-awareness of like, hey, if
I'm super anxious and I might want to text a lot, Mark, you
and I are dating pathetically. You're not right.
You're like, hey, I'm, I'm significantly more secure.
I'm not going to use this to manipulate you when I'm going to
use this as is, hey, this is my own shit.
Here's what I can learn about myself and how we can actually
have a successful relationship. Yeah, it's interesting to see.
I think I first wrote about attachment theory like 2012,
maybe 2013, but this has happened with a number of
psychological concepts over the years, not just attachment
theory, but I think attachment theory is kind of the most
obvious one that I've seen. The way TikTok and Instagram
culture have taken what is really solid theories with a, a
bedrock of research and then like twisted them into these
status games and, and coping mechanisms of like, you know,
some guy doesn't call you back. So it's like, oh, well, he's
avoided and you're actually just really coping.
Like it's not, you don't actually know anything about
this person, but it, it, it's become this weird, I don't even
know what the word is for it, but you, you see with all sorts
of mental health concepts that it's just become this like weird
signalling game on social media. And, and I actually think it,
it's toxified a lot of these concepts in a weird way.
Like I, I think in in a certain way it's working against people
at this point. 100% I couldn't agree more.
And it's interesting. It's funny that we talk about,
Oh, well, if someone says like, oh, they're avoidant and you're
like talk, that's cliche anxious behavior, right?
Diagnosing other people, making external.
I'm so uncomfortable with myself.
So I'm going to analyze you because if I analyze you, I
don't have to worry about me. I don't have to think about
what's coming up. Anxious people are avoidant and
avoidant people are anxious. And so it's that I think what
we've had is like TikTok university has now so many
people have graduated that think they understand these really
nuanced concepts and they've mowed it into like a bumper
sticker, right? That's what my partner always
says. Like if he can fit into 140
characters or less, if he wanted to, he would if they like you.
And it's like, I'm sorry. So everything is just chalked up
to that one statement. All humans, almost 9 billion of
us are the same. Makes it a lot less fun if we
start to think of it that way. So I think to your point, it's
like narcissism. People will say, oh, he's a
narcissist. It's like, no, that dude just
didn't like you. And narcissist is a very
different thing. But I think again, when we get
into that, like I want to heal other people, I want to diagnose
other people. And when we try to diagnose
other people, what we end up doing is self abandoning.
And I think what gets lost too is that you can actually be in
an insecure relationship and it can still work out like you can.
That's a big one, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you, you actually,
I mean, this was a huge part of attachment theory, Is that
actually the primary way you heal, the way you learn to
regulate yourself is within a relationship, is by like having
that secure boundary with somebody so that every time you
freak out and you get triggered, nothing horrible happens.
Yeah. And yet so much of the advice
is, oh, stay away from avoidance or stay away from the edge or
whatever. So much of the advice is that
it's like, well. Learn, work with, wait for the
most perfectly secure person on earth who doesn't exist by
exactly no. Or you'll see the there's this
one guy and I'm not going to name names even though I want
to. He drives me insane, his content
because it was like, it's all this stuff.
Look, I'm going to teach you how he's like a secure man.
It's going to heal your anxious attachment.
And I'm like, I'm going to pull my fucking hair out.
Like that's not how it works. I'm I have had my own anxiety
and my partner has his avoidance.
We are both. It's called earn secure.
You can absolutely earn your security in our relationship.
I don't worry about any of those things in life.
Am I anxious? Yeah, I'm still is so hard, but
there's still an element of understanding like you can heal
through that and two insecure people can heal.
But the key here is like, what are you?
Are you doing the work? Are you actually trying to
implement and grow and change your mindset and learn new
things? Or is it well, every time I get
triggered, the person walks out and you're like, OK, well, we're
not making progress. So I think if two people are
very committed to actually progressing a relationship
doesn't need to start off being the most secure people.
But like, to your point, if I'll give you an example, when I
first started dating my partner, my smart ass was like, he's not
texting me enough. And like I was like this poor
guy. Like he just, he was very clear
from the beginning, like, I want to build a connection with you,
not on the phone. And after like maybe six or
seven dates, I text him saying like, Hey, being all cute,
saying, you know, I'd love like a little bit more texting in
between our dates to feel more connected to you.
And he went came right with a boundary of like, Hey, great to
hear from you. Going to be honest.
And it was just like, he's like, I don't connect via the phone.
I work 9 hours on a screen all day.
The last thing I want there's a mini screen in my hand while I'm
connecting with my friends and family and my dog.
If that doesn't work for you, completely understand.
If not, I'd love to take you out to dinner and get to know you in
person. Yeah.
What a thought. That was wow.
I mean, that's just so. It's so simple though, and
people, we complicate it way too goddamn much.
Yeah, and it's like and, and but then that's that moment where I
could have chosen, fuck this guy, he's the void.
And instead I was like, no, Sabrina, challenge yourself, you
can heal. And then I never brought the
texting up and our, our relationship progressed to like,
well, here we are two years later.
Because I think what we see in the beginning is a lot of these
triggers, like here we go into the mental state.
The mental aspect of it is like you go from the prefrontal
cortex into the amygdala and we go into that limbic part of our
brain. And you're operating at a old
operating system from when you're 6.
It's not going to be a shock that every little thing is going
to cause you to say, I can't do this.
I want to go away because there's no goddamn coping
mechanisms or tools to push through and say, let me sit in
the discomfort And we actually maybe try to grow through this.
Because if every single guy you date, it's the same issue, we
have to stop blaming everybody else.
You hear this all the time. The only thing all of the people
you date have in common is you. So if it all fails spectacularly
the same way, guess what? That's kind of where I was
talking about. I alluded to it can become a
self fulfilling prophecy too. Like when I learned all this
stuff, I actually studied this in like Graduate School and
everything like that. So I went the other way and went
too deep into it and intellectualize it too much.
And then I kind of like, Oh yeah, I have these avoidant
tendencies I'm avoiding now. I'm going to act that out for
the longest time. And it's only been within the
last few years that I've realized actually I, I'm pretty
anxious too. I'm a little bit more
disorganized than I thought I was.
And then I also realized that there's actually some kind of
redeeming qualities about my avoidance and my anxiety that
don't have to necessarily be, you know, thrown out.
You don't got to throw the baby out with the bathwater
necessarily. And so, yeah, I don't know, I, I
kind of came to this realization that I don't have to just be
avoidant all the time, right? You know, it's OK that I'm, I
can be anxious. And it's like you just just
expressing that to somebody and being very open and honest
upfront about it has been huge for me anyway, yeah.
Total game charger. Of course it's validating,
right? Yeah.
I think it's like my I remember once when I first started dating
my partner, I said I'm anxious and he looked at me and he goes,
you have anxiety. We don't need to self identify.
And I was like, good call. You're right.
I don't need to self identify. I'm not an anxious person.
I have anxiety. It's a part of me like the
thousand other fucking parts of me that exist.
And for you with the avoidance as well, it's like
intellectualizing wouldn't be a shock, right?
The avoidance, the avoidant people want to avoid the
emotions. So let me intellectualize and if
I can just cognitively understand this, but the
emotions, I don't need them. But then finding a pendulum that
doesn't swing severely could even start with saying, sure,
this might make me uncomfortable, but I'm learning
and growing that acceptance that not belittling not I'm an
avoidant. I'm an avoidant.
And then our cognitive bias is like, alright to avoid.
Instead, it's like, can we show a little bit of compassion and
acceptance first within ourselves and then the people
that we're meeting that like, I hate to break it to a lot of
people, just because you show up on a date and have a good time
doesn't mean everyone felt that. And it's not something that we
need to take personally, but we can actually like grow through
all of this stuff. A. 100%.
Yeah. How much do you think of the
unwillingness to sit with the discomfort and grow through the
stuff is just having too many exits, having too many options
outside of like, because I don't know, I think back when I used
to date, this is pre app. So it's actually fucking hard to
meet somebody. Like you actually had to put
work in to go meet somebody. You had to suffer through
anxiety, risk embarrassing yourself, make a fool of
yourself in front of your friends.
So when you met somebody and there was even an inkling of
chemistry, there was kind of this like, well, let's just,
let's really try to make this work because I don't want to
have to go go to the fucking bar and do that again, right?
And I, I feel like today it's just so easy to get back on the
app and start swiping right that, you know, people don't
feel that that opportunity cost. I think it's a double edged
sword because like, to your point, OK, yeah, we used to be
able to go out and like meet somebody and it's like, oh,
that's a beautiful experience. Like I remember, I remember
those days when in New York you're like, I passed my number
to someone. And people like look at you like
you're shocked. You're like, yeah, yeah.
I interacted with a human and I, I, I potentially could have
gotten rejected. I didn't like, I got laid
instead. And it's like, that was a good
ending. But I think we, we, I think we
know like anything. It's like technology, What a
beautiful thing, right? Wouldn't have met you guys if it
wasn't for technology. Wouldn't have a fucking voice if
it wasn't for technology. But then the pendulum swings to
where you're like, oh, but technology has brought all of
these bad things. And I think, sure, is it easier?
Of course it is. I could just get back on the
app. I don't have to deal with it.
And I think that now we have this weird like subculture of
like judging people for being on the apps of like, oh, I want to
meet someone in person. And it's like, here's a fun
fact, 68% of couples meet online now.
So enjoy, have fun with the other 4.
You know, 32% of where you're going to meet these people.
But I think what I usually get curious about when I ask like,
OK, what don't you like about the apps?
Well, they're uncomfortable and like, I don't like that, you
know, these people ghost or they don't answer and I'm like, oh,
but you think approaching someone in the wild that you
have no idea. At least on a app, I have a
baseline of knowing that you want to fuck me, right?
You think I'm attractive. We swiped versus in the wild,
I'm walking up. I don't know, you could have a
wife. You could be, you know, you
could do whatever. You could be gay.
It does. It could be 1000 things that
doesn't scare, that doesn't make you uncomfortable.
And we so I think what gives us this ease of like, well, I don't
have to do it. Oh, I could just stay single.
I don't have to be bothered. And I think what the apps have
really done is like they've triggered us, but then they also
allow you to avoid your triggers because in dating, it's messy,
it's ugly, it's rejection. You're dealing all of these
things, but you can also grow. And I think, yeah, back in the
day when my parents met, it was like, oh, that's nice.
Like you could just meet someone through a friend.
And it's like then on that same token, we have a lot of divorce
because a lot of people got married saying, well, I don't
want to keep doing this, so let's just make this work.
So I think we also have to look at like, are you being a better
buyer? And like, are you actually
invested in your health and Wellness and growth?
Because I was on the apps, I started when I was like 18 1/2.
Like, they came out when I was there and I was like, what's
this? I met my partner on Hinge.
I'm a different version of myself than the girl that used
to date on those apps. Because you have to learn and
grow. Otherwise you'll be 60 and still
swiping in the same way. Because is it easier to avoid
doing the work? Yeah.
Just get back on the app.
But how fulfilling is that? Yeah, have you ever 'cause I
know you didn't, but have you gone on like your friends apps
and stuff to see what it's like? I mean, I've watched my friends
do it, and it's funny. There was a period in my life it
was fun. My wife and I, we met I think
like six months before Tinder came out.
And then while we were dating, all of our friends were getting
on Tinder. And it was so cool at the time,
like everybody loved it so much that my wife and I, we used to
joke we're like, maybe we should break up for a week just like do
the tender thing and then we'll get back together.
And but it's funny because it Fast forward like 5-6, seven
years and, and all of our friends were like, Oh my God,
you guys are so lucky. You got out just in time.
You caught the last train out of the station.
Running behind ragged. And that's the thing, it's like
the casino is always going to win, right?
Like the apps are made to there to make money, but that doesn't
mean you still can't also like trick the system.
It's like any piece of technology.
It's more about how you use it. It's not.
It's not like going to fix your life for you.
You have to be conscious on how you use it and how you implement
it. You guys have completely got
ahead of me. Didn't read the homework I tell
you. Didn't.
Read the assignment. Drew's docket.
Because our next segment is brilliant or bullshit.
In all to fairness, I didn't really finish college, so that's
not. It it's all good.
Now. We know why.
Thank you. I don't.
Know Mark and I partied through college too much too.
We forgot a lot. I was drunk.
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OK, this is what I want to do for Brilliant or bullshit.
This is the segment rain aside. Yes please.
I'm trying to keep you on the road.
As always, brilliant. Or bullshit though, Sabrina, we
do. We'll, we'll introduce a, an
article or a, a research study or something like that.
And we talk about whether that's brilliant or bullshit for you.
The brilliant or bullshit is about dating apps.
OK, there's been some recent data, yes, you said that 68% of
people meet on an app. Now there's some recent data
though, that is suggesting that maybe apps have kind of peaked a
little bit, right. So in from 2020, there were
about 287,000,000 downloads of dating apps worldwide.
That's down to 237,000,000, down 50 million in in just three
years. That's in 2023.
Number of users has has went down as well.
People aren't as willing to pay. The profits are either growing
very slowly or going down, and there has been an increase in
offline meetups like Eventbrite has seen a 42% increase in
attendance and in person single events just in 2023 alone a 42%
jump. Awesome.
So now that said, there are some like niche apps and things that
are doing pretty well. Field which is like the
polyamorous 1 grinder for gay men, that sort of thing.
Where do you land on dating apps in general?
Brilliant bullshit. You can punt a little bit and
say both and tell us why that's OK.
I'm going to have to do the lame 1 and go both and I'll tell you
why because I met my partner in a nap so I can't poo poo poo it
and be like they're fucking terrible.
Except for the one. So I think, I think what's
happened though. And so in all 2 fairness, I've
been off the apps for two years. And so I've what I've seen,
because it's kind of that same thing.
What I've seen is like the apps have gone.
We've got we've skewed so far from what the intention of it
was. Like Bumble came out saying, you
know what? We realized women don't want to
make the first move. And it's like, yo, that was what
your fucking app was. But that's the that's the whole
point of being. Mark, you coming out and being
like, I'm not going to curse anymore and you're like, what
are you doing here? So it's like, I think that
because the apps have, I think a lot of us have lost faith in the
apps, right? Like we've first of all, there's
so many bots. It's it's like hard to even now
navigate who's real and who's not.
It's really difficult to even see like, are the people
intentional, right? And I also think that, you know,
we have this resurgence like I was like in the last year where
everyone's like, I want to be off the apps, I want to meet
people. And so Eventbrite's usually my
go to. I'll be like, great, go on
Eventbrite, find things like when I'm going to tell I had to
like a high club. I went to pottery.
My partner's a big cook. He says, go to the farmers
market. You see a guy there on a Sunday
morning alone. He's a good on shot.
He's. Here once, apparently if if if
something ever happens to my wife, I'm just going to go stand
in the middle of Air 1. I'm not going to lie, that was
my playground when I lived here. Like I would go to Air 1 and sit
outside and just look like a snack and just wait to see
everybody come towards me. But this is this is the thing,
though. So Mark's, you've never used a
dating app, I don't think, Right.
Yeah. And I've been off them for six
years even though I'm single. I just haven't used them for six
years. So I have no idea what's going
on. So that's why we're asking you
about this, too. The bots I had, that wasn't a
thing when I was using them back in 2017, you know?
So many it's like overwhelming and you're like oh or you know
Hinge hired it so Tinder had a $500 membership.
Fuck get fucked to 500 dollar 500 for kinder that was released
last year. Hinge hired their price.
I think it starts at 50 and it goes up to like 150.
And that's I think and like, I think what a lot of people are
seeing is like there's a misconception.
Women seem to think like there's so many options and it's like
apps are usually like 70% men. Actually, it's a predominant
male driven app, but it's a lot of men that the women are not.
Look, you know, it's like it's. All the men that are scumbags
and. It's a lot of trash, right,
We'll just say that. And so I think, you know,
there's also that kind of component as well is that
there's a lot of there are a lot of people.
It's not like, you know, when I met my partner, he was not my
type and it's not a negative. It's not like he was not I
wasn't attracted to him, but he's not the cookie cutter
fucking same thing. I always went for that I think
is what we is what I personally mean by like be a better buyer.
Like if you're matching with somebody and you're going on and
you're like, oh, they're just hot.
It's like, well, what do you think is going to happen in the
depth of this conversation? And you can't be shocked when,
oh, wow, you want the guy that's 65 blue eyes, finance, all of
that stuff. And it's like, shocker, he
didn't want to go. He doesn't want a relationship.
He doesn't text you back and he's seen five other girls.
Crazy could, I guess. Yeah, I didn't see that coming.
So I think that's also the element is like 90% are going
for the 1% and then are getting so upset when it doesn't happen.
But yet if we really think about the day-to-day, like when I
lived in LA, don't get me wrong, there's attractive people, not
to the extent on the apps that I was seeing where you're like,
babe after babe, you don't walk around seeing that many people.
And so I also think the apps have really caused this like
just unrealistic expectation of like what the dating market is.
And you're like, babe, you're no, you're not fucking Blake
Lively. You're not going to get a Ryan
Reynolds. Like, let's also just be
cognizant of like what it is that we're coming with and then
what it is you think you're going to get.
Yeah, you touched on two different theories that I I,
I've had at different points. 1 is my primary one when I look at
dating apps and I talk to all my friends who use dating apps and
they're really frustrated with them.
The first thing that I notice is that I I think the dating apps
are unintentionally nudging people in the sorting and
filtering in ways that are not helpful.
Yeah. One of the most obvious and
common things is that we just it's what you just said.
We don't actually know what we want.
We think we we want this list of traits in a person, but the the
the person that we are actually end up attracted to is often
completely different or the person who's actually good for
us ends up being completely, completely different than that.
You know, when I think about a lot of the, the women I've dated
in my life, probably half of them I wouldn't have swiped
right on right. It's like I met them through a
friend or I met them at a party. And it was over the course of
multiple hours that I started to become attracted to them.
And after a couple dates, I started to like, realize things
about them that were really interesting or intriguing.
So the, the, the apps skew that they, they mask that they don't
allow you to filter for the correct things that actually
work in a relationship. I, I agree with you about the
skewed expectations. The bot thing is super
interesting. And I, you know, one thing, I
just had this thought while you were talking.
If you look at any sort of platform or social network
online, anything from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube to
whatever, there is always a small minority of people who
fucking ruin it for everybody else.
Like like. Definitely.
The threshold of the amount of bad actors required to fuck a
platform is actually extremely small.
You really only need like 1 or 2% of people on any given
platform to be total assholes and and and terrorists to ruin
the platform for everybody else. And I, I get the sense that that
is what's happened with the dating app is that there's just
a small minority of people who are really bad actors who
probably swipe on right on 2000 different people and then are
just like sending Dick pics and like sending offensive shit.
And, and it ruins it ruins the experience for everybody else.
And. We also have to remember too,
like what are the apps actually doing dopamine, right?
You're a reward drug. Like this is a drug.
I mean, I my ass is on my phone and I'm like, this is going to
stop. Like you don't need this.
And it's like, and I don't even you know, like how many times
will be like you close the app just to open it right back up
like 4 seconds later. Like I've the amount of times
I've done that without noticing is concerning.
And so when we think about the dating apps, what I also really
see, and it's like, I'd be curious your thoughts because
you joined before and you're not on them.
The almost like fetishization. And I want to say, but like this
proclivity of these digital relationships, right?
Like it's just there's so much emphasis on like I want to be
texting and why am I not seeing their name pop up on my phone
and why aren't they contacting me?
I haven't heard from them that like I either get when people
are like quick to make a plan. Like I'm that type.
We talked, my partner and I talked for an hour and then he
was like hey let me get your number.
Like let's go to dinner. Done, great, let's do this off
the phone. Met this person, yay.
But there are people that'll go 2-3 months with texting every
day or like I'll get rid of a week.
We spoke every single day. We had 4 hour fights, Facetimes
and calls and blah blah. And then he told me he doesn't
want a relationship. It's like, 'cause digital
nonsense doesn't equate to that person.
They're writing a check, but that doesn't mean they're
cashing it. And I see that not much with the
digital landscape is that I think the, the apps allow you to
get into this fantasy, right? Like I was hurt.
I would be walking down the street and all of a sudden you
get the match and it's like your heart is racing.
You're like, Oh my God, is he going to message me?
And then he does. And you're like, I don't know
when we're going to go back. It's just as high.
And then leave it to my brain. I'm already planning our
wedding, right? I'm already going into like,
he's been to Aspen. Oh my God, I've never been to
Aspen. I want to go there.
And then before I even met this guy, I, I have created this
entire fantasy. So we can't be shocked that
you're so gutted, devastated when it doesn't work out, when
you've already planned your wedding and then this person
doesn't even show up for a date. Yeah.
So I think that's just that that grieve, like the sensitivity to
rejection. And I get it, Nobody wants to be
rejected. But I also think, like, that is
part of life, right? Like, we have to toughen up.
When you used to go out and approach women, that would walk
off. Fucking sucks fucking.
Sucks. Yeah, it was.
It was rough. Yeah.
The, the texting thing is really interesting because it's, it is,
it's a fat simile of intimacy, but it's not real intimacy.
It's like an imagined intimacy. And you get to, you get to
create this drama in your head, but real intimacy is messy and
uncomfortable and kind of awkward.
And you know, yeah, it's not, it's not what you see in the in,
in the romantic comedies or anything like that.
It's not glamorous at all. It's not, it's really not what I
tend to notice, you know, people who kind of perpetually struggle
with their relationships. There's there's, I don't want to
call it childish, but it is childish.
There's a childish attachment to just worshipping romance and and
like prioritizing it above everything else.
When actually, I mean, romance is great, don't get me wrong,
like big fan of romance, but it's not.
It's not even near the top of the totem pole.
My friend Britt Frank is a brilliant neuropsychotherapist
and she always taught me the love addict, right?
Like the person that's addicted. She's like their biggest fear is
an abandonment. It's intimacy.
That's why they're addicted to it because you can just bounce,
bounce, bounce. But true intimacy for like
you're saying, I didn't feel intimate with my partner, not
even just physically, emotionally, because we were
texting all the time and I was creating.
It's like I felt that intimacy because he said something to me.
It pissed me off. I answered and he validated me
and I was like, I feel so seen. I feel so comfortable with you.
That was intimacy. I feel safe to express myself
and say you're being an asshole. Please don't do that.
And he said, you're right. I'm sorry.
I owe you an apology. Thank you.
That to me is that intimacy versus this.
We're planning the fucking stars in the sky.
And we're talking about all these things.
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. They want you to go and meet
their family, but you still have yet to know their last name.
Like there is a grave disconnect.
And it's easy, right? It's fun.
You get to write this entire novel that's not going to
actually come out. I never thought about that
before. Like apps enabling love
addiction for romance addiction. Like I could totally see that.
But it was, that was why a big reason I got off of them.
I think more of what you're talking about where people
wanted that digital relationship and there was kind of this
addiction to it. And I was always just like, we
would match and I'd be like, do you want to meet?
I don't want to sit here and text back and forth.
And so many of them. No, no, no, I want to text back
and forth. I'm like, I do not.
I just don't want to do it. And then and then a couple of
years after, just within the last couple of years, I guess
I've seen like ads for, oh, here's an AI app to help your
dating profile. And I'm like, are you fucking
kidding me? Don't even it changes.
Your picture changes your relationship.
It writes your profile for you. I'm like, are you fucking
kidding me? This is what people are doing
now. You know what's next?
Oh, no, no, you know what apps are coming out now?
Because we were like, my partner and I were part of 1 and it
shifted and we were like, we're out.
We're not doing this. It's writing.
It writes the messages for you. And like, he's just funny.
I remember I had a client and he was not, he's like in his 60s
and he, oh, he loved to date his 20 year old.
And I was like, oh Jesus, like the oh, shocker that this didn't
work out. And so we were on a call one day
and we're doing these like, can you help me do my profile?
And so the way I like to work is I like type it out and I kind of
need to think and I'll send it over like, OK, this would be a
good prompt. I didn't know he was just
copying and pasting everything I did.
And so it's this beautiful, thought provoking profile.
I mean, I did a damn good job writing this.
And then he like in the next session, he's like, you know, I,
I don't understand. I'm having luck on the apps.
Like I'm getting so many matches and I'm like, OK, can you show
me a couple of the messages? And it's like this beautiful
prompt that the woman responded to and it's just hey, sexy.
I'm like, Oh my God. And it's like that words you
can, you can mask it, right? And it's like, I think what we
also need to remember too, because I hear this everyday of
like men just say what a woman wants to hear.
And it's like, so you're that unoriginal.
You think that he just knows everything you, specifically me,
Sabrina Zohar wants to hear because like, maybe you don't.
And I think what we really need to understand is like, come home
to yourself. I'd rather be rejected for me as
I am then be rejected for this version that I am.
That's not even fucking me. Yeah, I saw there was a Am I the
asshole Reddit thread the other day and it, it was super
interesting actually. So it was a guy saying that he,
him and his girlfriend, every time that him and his girlfriend
had a fight, she would go leave the room, get on ChatGPT,
basically describe the fight to ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT for
rebuttals and like arguments against her boyfriend.
And then she would come back 30 minutes later with this like
perfect outlined argument with like bullet point explanations
of all the reasons why he's wrong.
And he, he said he was like, I, I've asked her to stop using
ChatGPT and our, and our personal arguments.
And, and she, she says I'm being sensitive and I'm, I'm refusing
to admit that I'm wrong and all these things that he's like, am
I the asshole? I was just like, holy shit, what
world are we coming into? I'm curious what were the
comments? I didn't look at the comments,
but I I that's the concern. For me is when the people are
like you are the asshole and you're.
Like no, no, no, what are we? I feel like I've my experience
is that the the am I the asshole subreddit is like they're
they're compasses usually pretty aligned.
God, and there's some hope for humanity, but no, it's true.
I, I see that every day of like even I've had podcast guests on
where I'm like, man, your content's amazing.
And then in person you're like, Oh, you don't actually know any
of this. Like you scripted the entirety
of this, but you can't have an honest conversation with me
where we're coming up with our own ideas.
And that's that disconnect. And that's why my partner and I
left the app we were working on. I was like, I want to teach you
how to fish. We have got to stop just giving
the fish because we're seeing it, you know, you start to look
like Gen. Z is going to be that stops in
2027. That's officially like then
we're officially into alpha. And now what that means it's
like, wait a minute. So we already are looking all
right, apologize. Alpha is done in 2027 and then
the next one. So already you're going fucking
beta at this point or whatever is next, I'm assuming.
So if we even just look at generationally, it's like, OK,
millennials, right? We did a lot like there's the
genome and the millennials. But then if I look between
millennials and Gen. Z, it's a huge disconnect of
like, I don't owe you anything. I did a video that went viral
instead of ghosting, say this. And it hurt my soul how many
people were like, I'd rather ghost than get this.
It sounds like HR And it's like, yo, dude, it's just a fucking
blunt and direct. Hey, I'm not interested in
pursuing this. Take care.
I don't want to waste any more of your time.
But that one girl said, why would I send that if I would be
so heartbroken to receive that? Why would I want to hurt someone
else? And I was like, I'm sorry what?
And it's just we are in, we're getting more and more fragile of
this. Like I can't handle anything on
my own, the Internet, someone else needs to validate me and
we're getting further away from ourselves.
I've used ChatGPT before. That shit does not know what the
fuck they're talking about all the time.
So if you're basing your arguments on.
That ChatGPT is literally the average of all human experience,
therefore it is mediocrity embodied so.
If we just put it in the code, it's.
True, like if we, we rely on a crutch like that, then we want,
we can't be surprised why human connection is becoming sparser
because we're, we're attaching. We're not connecting.
It's like, I need you. I don't want you.
I, I have to have you in my life.
It's fear, it's anxiety. I need this versus a connecting
is like it's slow. It takes a minute.
I need to know who you are. I need emotional safety, I need
intimacy, I need trust. And I think we've really gotten
further and further from that because I mean, let's also be
honest, I'm 34, I don't have kids.
Not sad about that by any means. We are now in a generation where
that's cool, right? I could be in my mid 30s and not
have kids. But then we're between socio
like what is the world and the Internet saying and the body
count conversations and the red pill bullshit.
It's like we have a lot of noise.
So if ChatGPT is where you're getting the sum of all the
parts, I'm a little worried. Yeah, it it the point you
brought up about the emotional safety ISM I definitely see that
more in Gen. Z, but this prioritization of
emotional comfort over anything else that this idea that if
something is upsetting or hurtful or uncomfortable, then
that protecting you from that sets priority above everything
else. You know, fuck honest
communication, fuck sharing your values, standing for something,
having integrity. If it if it makes somebody
uncomfortable, then it it shouldn't be done.
I, I think that it's just such a wrong way to approach life in so
many ways. And I think relationships in
particular, more than anything else in life, fundamentally
requires discomfort, upset, being willing to upset somebody
and be upset by somebody and be able to handle that maturely as
an adult and not just like fucking fly off the handle.
And it, it, it worries me. I mean, this, this kind of this
precedence of emotional safety ISM I, I, I see it having
pernicious effects all across society in a bunch of different
domains. But relationships literally
can't function if you're not willing to be uncomfortable
around somebody else. Like that is in many ways the
definition of intimacy. Is 100.
Percent being willing to be uncomfortable around somebody.
Else yeah. And just be messy and ugly and
yourself, right? And be loved for that.
Well, it's the same as like, there's this artist.
I don't fucking know who these people are.
I don't keep up with like the pop culture stuff.
But she cancelled her tour because like she was having a
she said my mental health needs it.
And then when you actually look by like, what do you mean your
mental health needs? Like it's your fucking job.
You're a musician, like you need to go out.
And it was because she made a statement politically and people
gave her backlash and she said, well, you know, it hurt me.
And it's like, I'm sorry, what fucking alternate reality are
you in that I could just say, well, I don't like what you said
to me, so I'm just going to cancel my my into everything.
And that's OK. And then you see the polarizing,
some people attacking her saying, how could you do this?
And then there's people defending her saying, well,
she's protecting her mental health, but then we have to look
at where's the line, right? Where are we so disconnected
from reality that we're like, what do you mean your mental
health? And then when is it like, hey, I
think you should prioritize your mental.
Health, right? I mean, there is, yeah, there is
a certain point where cancelling your own job, harming your
career, fucking over thousands of fans to protect your mental
health is a sign of poor mental health.
Like, like we. Need better advice as a
functional. Person doesn't protect their
mental health by just like ending everything they're doing
in their life and sitting at home on the couch and bed
rotting or whatever, right And. It's like, and that's, and to
your point is like, and that's relationships.
Now, is this like, I don't want to deal with this, this is hard.
I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable.
And it's like, yeah, but that's how you grow.
I, I really feel like we've, we've overcorrected as a culture
and, and that like, if you look 50 to 100 years ago, everything
was like, toughen up, stop complaining, you know, just get
on with it. You know, it's just like trauma
everywhere. And people are like burying it,
suppressing it, you know, pushing it down.
And I think, I think we've gone too far to the other side today
where it's like, I'm uncomfortable.
I'm not going to go to work today.
Yeah, like it's hot. I'm just not going to go outside
and you're like, what? Just go for the fucking walk.
Like just do something 100%. And it's it's it bums me out
because I think, and that's personally why I think like when
I came out creating content, it was different, right?
It's because I'm the first to be like, oh, wow.
Oh my God, that guy treated you like shit.
OK, what was your part in this? And it's like this.
Well, what do you mean? My, were you blaming me?
Never said blame, never said shame, never attacked you for
it. I'm asking for accountability
because that's what for me, that's what changed my fucking
life was when I stopped blaming my external.
It's happening to me. You know what's happening for
me, a girl, open your fucking eyes and start to see the lay of
the land. Because if I didn't lose
everything that I lost, I wouldn't have gained everything
that I gained along the way. And if I had stayed comfortable
and stayed safe, I would probably still be living in my
mold ridden apartment in Venice. Really, really sad.
And probably health getting even worse.
We heard all about the mold ridden apartment before we went
live you. Guys are on this journey with
me. That's another podcast.
It does go back to the agency thing you were talking about,
though. That's the main part.
And so I think, yeah, so we're landing on dating apps somewhere
in between, it sounds like, even though we just shit all over
them for the past 15 minutes. I think there's a, it's a
blessing and a curse, right? Like I think you can win and you
can lose, but I think ultimately at the end of the day, if I can
succinctly say this, regulate your nervous system, do the
fucking work on yourself. And it's a, it's in addition to
it's not instead of and too many people put everything on the app
and it's like, yo, use it passively.
Allow it to be on your phone like every other app that there
is, but it doesn't define you. And I think that's we need to
remove the importance we put on these apps for us to be able to
interact with these apps appropriately.
I, I wonder what a functional dating app would actually look
like. You know, the, the price
increase I find intriguing because allow me to defend it
for a second. It, it creates a barrier to
entry, right? So a lot of the, the riffraff
and the poor actors and the bots and everything, if it's 50 bucks
a month, it's not going to be worth it for those people.
Whereas the people who are way more serious and actually are
going to put a lot of conscious thought into it, they'll
probably be more likely to spend that much money.
I also just imagine that like some sort of universal catch all
dating app probably isn't possible.
Like you probably need to segment it in certain ways.
So you need to segment people by communities or religious beliefs
or backgrounds or, you know, whatever.
That's why that niche apps I think are.
Are well and but are you guys familiar with those are we
dating the same guy Facebook groups.
Oh yeah, I've. Heard.
I was. Like let's let's just even touch
on that. It's the same thing.
I feel about that is like when I was creating my dating app, we
were like, I want to be intentional daters and people
would write and go, well, you know, you shouldn't let people
on there that like do this. And it's like, OK, but here's
the thing. That's your perspective, right?
This person did all these things and I'm like, but I could talk
to 20 other women that maybe they dated and maybe that wasn't
their experience. Who am I to say, Mark, you're
not allowed in? Nope.
Because you're not intentional enough.
And it's like, well, just because I said I want a
relationship didn't mean I want one with Drew.
That could mean I want one with someone else.
Where is the line? Right?
And so I think if we niche love the niche of like, hey, it's for
this where it becomes blurry. Is this like same thing as those
Facebook groups? I think I get it.
I understand why they exist. But I also on the other side
have a huge issue with them because some people have lost
their jobs. And it's like, why was he losing
his job? Because you guys had a fight
personally at home. And I think we, you know, when
we're trying to control too much, like I think if we can
niche it, like, listen, there's a sugar daddy website.
Good go. That's where you go for this.
When it comes to the dating apps, I think you're right.
If we make this one-size-fits-all, everybody
fits in here. It's like, well, they don't, but
then I'm like, OK, how can we make this about more
intentionality? OK, well, what if you're just
have money and you could buy into it?
And it's like, you know what, it goes back to I got to trust
myself. I got to trust my gut that if I
see Mark on the app and I'm like, he paid on here, oh, wait,
I'm not going to assume that he's here for the right reasons
and I'm not going to assume that he wants me like that.
I'm going to go and say, hey, it's just another way to meet
somebody that might be like minded.
I think you see what I'm saying? It's like we got to, I love all
of these things. We got to also be put cognizant
of how we're interacting with them too, because I think that's
90% the battle, yeah. 100% Yeah. Well, cool.
Let's take a break. Sure, this podcast is powered by
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thank you. All right, we're back.
We've got some audience questions.
We do. We have one in particular from
Lauren on YouTube and we've touched on a few of these themes
already, so we can kind of tie this all together.
I think it was a very long question, so I've edited it
down. So Lauren, I hope we're.
Haven't you noticed relationship questions or like small books?
Dissertations and. That's especially through
emails, but this one wasn't even a YouTube comment and it was
pretty long, but it's a good one.
So Lauren says I'm 29 and have been single for six years after
working through codependency issues from past relationships.
Now my standards are so fucking high but I'm frustrated with the
dating scene as most men I seem to me are immature or
irresponsible. A lot of them seem to want a
mommy, not a partner, and the few men that I have clicked with
don't want long term exclusive relationships.
How do I stay patient and optimistic while searching for a
genuine, compatible partner without feeling disillusioned?
I think there's probably a larger question of expectations
in here that we can hit on to. I was about to say now here,
thank you for writing in and we appreciate all this.
And I say this with love. There's a grave fucking
disconnect. Oh, all the guys that you like,
oh, they don't want the things that you do, but yet these other
people you're not interested in, there's a disconnect because
that if you're what are you attracted to these people that
don't want the same things as you, right?
You've done all this work, right?
And you're showing up like that. What questions are we asking on
the first date? Are we gauging consistency?
Consistency doesn't mean for all my girls that this guy texts you
every single day at the same time.
That means reliability. Words and actions are aligning.
So we really want to start to like zoom out a little bit.
And for me, I would look and go away to have some holes here.
But in general, how do you stay hopeful in things?
It's like, OK, well, this is part of doing the work.
Like you had said earlier about like the mental health comment,
when you do the work, you know, there's a lot of people that
aren't and that you understand that it's not something
personal. And that, yeah, if I'm going to
be going out and dating, I know I might be something unique and
different, but I also know that that person exists out there.
And so I'm not going to be upset if it doesn't workout with these
schmoes that I'm meeting on the Internet.
And I think that's that expectation management that we
were also talking about of I get it, hey, it's frustrating.
You can feel upset, like please have it be annoyed.
But we also have to remember that doesn't mean that tomorrow
you might not meet somebody. And so if you're disillusioned
and you're going out and it's always, well, everybody wants a
mommy cognitive bias, we have to start to look, what kind of
buyer are you being then? And who are these people you're
going out with? To me, the the red flag is, is
every man I connect with doesn't want to settle down, have a long
term relationship and it's like, well, why are you connecting
with those? Like what do you what to use
your language? What are you shopping for right?
Maybe you should try to connect with a different type of person.
Well, usually too, it's like, let's think about it.
Those guys that don't want the relationship.
It's like, let me guess, he was charming, he was really lovely.
He was not super emotional, was a little bit more reserved.
It's like, yeah, because this person does not want that, so
they're not letting you in. And that's where I'd be like,
what are you connecting on? Because are they really letting
you in? But they're not being that
vulnerable because they don't want a relationship.
OK, so then. They're probably fun and
exciting and they go to lots of cool parties and, you know,
whatever. You know the type?
Oh yeah, yeah. I was like, I've probably been
the type before. Too, but I was that guy for a
long time. I tried to be.
You. Know Andrew's like no well our.
OK, simple question. Are expectations just too
fucking high? Are they unrealistic?
Are they, where are we? Where are we at with that?
Because I think, you know, on on for men, it's like, you know,
they're watching porn and they're seeing, you know,
they're they think that's a relationship a lot of men do for
women. You know, the six foot 5 blue
eyes finance guy. Our expectation is just
completely out of whack right now.
Well, we have such a thing too. Like when you have an
expectation, you also need to fucking communicate that, right?
Like you have to let, like, if I expect my partner to call me,
I'm going to tell him that I expect that hey, I would need
you to call me every single night, right?
Whatever, I don't know. So I think that's also The thing
is we have these high expectations and then these high
expectations are in an adult body and then the nervous system
in the brain are in the baby brain.
So I might have high expectations, but then I'm on a
date with Mark and all of a sudden I go back to being a six
year old who's talking to dad. And I can't ask for that.
I can't ask for a need. No, no, I don't want to be too
much. OK, so you have these high
expectations, but nobody can meet them because you don't know
how to express yourself about them.
Or the pendulum swings. We're so rigid.
We're so like, if you don't do this at this time, the number
one thing I hear, the number one fucking thing I hear everyday is
it's it's not, it's just one text.
It just takes 10 seconds and it's like, no, it's not.
That's your expectation. Did you articulate to this
person? Is that a non negotiable Nah?
I didn't think good morning was going to be something that was
going to make or break your fucking life.
And that's not how you're getting to know this person.
What does it mean though? Those expectations are usually
unmet needs because if I expect that Mark's going to text me.
Sorry Mark, you and I are dating in this scenario and all right
it's OK, but be be cute and so sorry to like if Mark and I are
single. Again.
Oh. God, we combined our.
Podcast though this would be amazing I.
Didn't even mean it I'm. Sorry Sabrina, I'm not really
looking to settle down anytime soon.
Oh. God, you really are.
Are those? Guys, you know we can go have
hang out and have fun. Totally we couldn't like totally
down to like kick it, just go with the flower right, But like
I don't even fucker remember the point I was trying to make.
But the horrible story is like, yes, if I expect expectations,
if I expect you to text me every day, that's because I have unmet
needs. And if I'm not, if I'm not
expressing that versus non negotiables, hey, I don't deal
with inconsistency. I need reciprocity.
I need fucking baseline of respect.
I need these aspects. Those you cannot do without
religion, politics, whatever. Everybody has their free.
That's I think the difference. We need to understand our non
negotiables and what are we not willing to settle for versus our
expectations because you're like satisfy your own needs.
Yeah. I think one of the challenges
for a lot of people is they're afraid to communicate the
expectations because they understand that that's going to
filter a lot of people out and they don't want to feel
rejected. You know, it's like you, if you
tell a guy, hey, I, I kind of feel like I want more
communication from you. I'd love it if you texted me
every day. And then he just says, all
right, peace. You know, that feels really bad.
And so I think people avoid that for that reason.
And then I think the, the other reason is just, it's people
don't communicate expectations effectively.
Like they, they, they'll say they communicated their
expectations, but then it's, it's like a very blame, like
what you're, you should do this because this is what I need.
And if you're, if you want to be with me, you need to, to text me
and do these things. And like that feels shitty as
the other person. Like there, there's like a a
very important skill of communicating your expectations
in a way that's like not judgmental, not blaming
retaining responsibility for them.
Like just, hey, letting you know, like this is important to
me and I'd really love it if you did this and just leave the ball
in their court and not have this like fucking drama explosion
over. It what I hear a lot of, it's
like self abandonment, right? I don't want.
No, no. If I say something because Mark
and I are dating, if I say something to Mark and he like,
walks away and leads, oh, well, then I'm rejected.
And you're like, wait a minute. Being rejected by definition is
being ridiculed or judged for who you are.
OK, Well, that's a need. Let me ask you a question.
Not you the hyper, the proverbial you.
Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you
expressed your need as a kid that you remember feeling like
this? Oh, well, when I would ask my
dad, there it is. You're scared, you're self
abandoning. Because if I take ownership and
say no, no, no, no, like I can't ask that.
And it's like, where did I learn that from?
Who taught me that my needs are too much?
OK, that was messaging I learned early on.
And so that's what I mean by like we have these adult
expectations in a child's brain and not to anyone.
It's just really that going back into the amygdala and being
like, I'm scared. I don't want to say anything.
So I'll just self abandoned and I'll do everything to be the
cool girl because the cool girl is going to get him to like me.
And it's like, Nah because it's one-dimensional.
That's why the nice guy, nobody likes the nice guy.
That's your personality I like. I find it so goddamn hot.
Set a boundary, tell me no. I want you to stand.
When my partner said no, I'm not going to text you.
I was like, OK because. It's talk dirty to me.
Because it shows where I'm like, you care about your mental
health and your well-being and you have, no, you're not scared
to lose me. And that is really fucking hot
when it's like, oh, so you do want me in your life.
You don't need me in your life. Boundaries don't keep people
out. They protect what's in.
If I set a boundary with Newmark, that's because I'd want
to keep you in my life, not because I want you gone.
That's. Kind of what you're saying.
I'd much rather you articulate and get fucking rejected for
that and be like, great, I'm not wasting my sleep on an
emotionally unavailable salmon when there's a bunch of other
fish I could go try to catch. I like salmon.
Do you? I'm not a salmon kind of girl,
even though I'm wearing you're. Wearing salmon.
You're you're you're quite salmon today.
Yeah. In my, in my dating book Models,
I, I, there's a whole chapter on rejection.
And a lot of guys have told me over the years that it it it's
one of the most powerful things for them when they read it.
And it's basically reframing rejection as it's not, it's not
about you. It's actually kind of the
world's way of sorting the right people in and out of your life.
And so if you tell a woman what you want and what you expect and
she disappears, she's actually doing you a favor.
She's preventing, she's preventing multiple months of an
unhappy relationship. And when you start seeing it
that way, then it, I don't know it, it took a while for me, but
when I started seeing it that way, it was like, oh, this is
actually a good thing. Like the the more I express
myself and the more women just who aren't interested turn it
down, the better my life ends up.
Rejection is redirection. It really is.
I couldn't agree more. How many times, even thinking of
my career, how many times I've got, I said no to someone, said
no to me on something. And then when you see it, you're
like, thank God that didn't happen.
That was awful, right? Like I don't want to be part of
this because it really is if we can empower ourselves of like,
hey, I used to tell my mom I'm like, no, no, here's my thing.
Either get the fuck in or get out.
Don't block the door because I will happily open it for you and
get you out. If I know like we talked to
bring a full circle to it. You said earlier people don't
what they want. And so if I know what I need in
a relationship and here, you know, I ask people the time,
like, what do you want in a relationship?
And they'll just go like, I want someone to do stuff with.
OK, what what stuff is that? You know, like go out, OK, go
out. Where does this mean you're
going to go out with friends or just alone?
OK, Do they have their own friend group?
I don't know, I didn't think about that.
It's like, well, that's the type.
What kind of life do you want to live?
I knew with my partner, I want someone that cooks.
I need someone that helps with access service.
And so when he our third date, when he was like, Hey, I made
you lunch because I know you don't eat, you better believe I
was like, Oh my God, because I was so clear on what I knew I
needed and wanted that I could see it.
And I was like, there he is as opposed goes to flandering.
I mean, like, I want the spark. And it's like, no, the spark is
just your phalanges trying to get away.
It's blood rushing to your extremities.
So you could run, but the problem is they're attractive.
And so but like if you felt like you did with the spark with a
homeless person on the street in LA, you'd be running, right?
So I think we it's just that that's really like the meat and
potatoes of it is like fucking learn yourself, understand
yourself, know what you want and need and then you can actually
show up as that and you're not scared of losing people for it.
For sure. Well said.
Take up space. Yeah, love it.
Sabrina, where can people find you?
You got the podcast, You're on social media.
Where can where can people find? You.
Yeah, we're gonna have Mark on the Sabrina Zohar show, which is
the podcast. Make sure you catch that one.
Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, you're gonna.
I who? We're gonna get all the mail
feedback on that and I can't wait.
And yeah, Sabrina zohar.com or the Sabrina Zohar show or
Sabrina dot Zohar on socials. You can find me.
Cool. Cool, awesome.
Thank you so much for coming. This is so much fun.
Thanks for having me guys. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a
Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie.
It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer
and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we
will see you next week.