I think I know my Halloween costume, Drew.
We were just joking about it before we went live.
I think I'm going to be a windsock Go stand in front of a
car dealership. You got the frame for it.
Yeah, you know, since I lost all the weight, I'm like shockingly
lengthy. Winds going to blow you around,
Yeah, yeah. You know what I did last year?
So I had this giant broccoli costume that we use for one of
the YouTube videos and I put that on and I looked absolutely
absurd, just this massive, like 2m tall broccoli walking around.
And what I really wanted to do, because we get in our
neighbourhood here, we get a lot of kids coming to the house.
I tried to convince Fernando to do this.
I was like, I want you to cook a ton of broccoli.
So like instead of like giving the kids candy?
No, you didn't. What what we'll do is I'll like,
I'll open the doors a giant broccoli and then I'll hand them
a giant plate full of broccoli. And I thought this was
hysterical. I was like, this is too fun.
Like we're going to record this. It's going to be it's going to
go viral on TikTok anyway. She beat that you.
Didn't even try. It my broccoli dreams were
destroyed in the cradle. Well, they never.
Maybe this year. You would have traumatized some
kids. I think you better not do that.
There's still hope, Drew. There's still hope.
It's like that's as bad as like handing out toothbrushes or
something like that. Like that's worse actually.
There's some steamed broccoli. What the fuck?
Steamed broccoli served by a broccoli.
It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your
host Mark Manson. Anyway, what?
What are we? What are we giving a fuck about
today? Oh, Mark.
Or not giving a fuck about what are we give what what's what's
happening? We're we're giving a fuck this
week. I'm giving a fuck anyway about,
about friends, friendship, friendship.
That's right. We've talked about this a little
bit before. I just flew back to Colorado.
I did. I did for dinner.
I Yeah. So I've been splitting my time
between, you know, LA and Colorado.
And I was out here and there was an anniversary dinner for some
friends of mine back home. And I I took a flight back.
I didn't even ask you. I was like, I'm going to ask for
forgiveness rather than permission on this one.
Probably, yeah. I was deeply scared, but yeah,
it was like, oh, you left? It got me, you know, I was, I
was, I was talking with some people and I was like, yeah, I
flew back and it was like a 2 hour dinner that we had on a
Friday night. I'm going to be honest, like
when you told me like an anniversary dinner, I, I thought
it was like your parents 50th or something.
I'm like, oh, this must be a big deal.
The fact that you literally got on a plane to attend a dinner
for two hours, two things. One, you are much better friend
than I am. Like hands down, bar none.
But two, I mean, it's, it's given, you know, sitting at LAX
for hours dealing, dealing with the airline bullshit in the
world, not to mention the, the, you know, the money, like the
cost and everything. So my question to you is, was it
worth it? Like how often do you do things
like this? I mean I I.
And is it worth it? Does it pay off?
For OK, is it worth it? Yes, it was.
If you're a psychopath like me and purely looks at human
interaction as a as transactional, is it worth?
It, it was worth it. But you're, you're right, there
was a lot of that. Like I was like, Oh my, I mean,
I slept like shit last week and I was just, it was the end of
the week and you know, we had a long week and going to LAX is
the last thing you want to do, you know, on a on a Friday.
And I was just like, Oh my God. I was even texting my friends
like, yeah, I'm really tired. I'm sorry if I'm not.
Whatever. As soon as I got to the dinner,
everything just like it was a beautiful evening.
They were able to open the doors at the restaurant, open the
windows at the restaurant. It was beautiful.
We had we sat, it was a small group of people.
We sat for a few hours and just yeah.
And that was worth it. So it was worth it, absolutely.
Worth it it was. It's funny because I, I imagine
most people wouldn't do something like, especially in
this day and age, like, you know, maybe like 40-30, forty
years ago, but like, I don't know, like that it is kind of
unimaginable. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, here's The thing is that, you know, I don't, I'm
single right now. I don't have kids.
I don't have like real big obligations to anyone else but
myself. And so I put no obligations.
I was going to say I have a flexible job.
Flexible working schedule. Before I was rudely cut off.
So I, you know, I have a lot of things working in my favor that
allows me to do these kind of things, right?
Sure, of course that. But there is also a cost
associated with maintaining these relationships that I've
decided to invest in, right? And yeah, to me, it's worth it.
It's absolutely worth it. Now, the cost thing too, I had a
whole bunch of airline miles. So it really actually didn't
cost me money to do that. I mean, there's little travel
expenses. I got a yeah, yeah on top of
that or whatever, and I had to use those miles.
But I, and I understand not everybody has that, that access
or that, that, that they they don't have the privileges.
Sure, I get that. But that said, it's just, it's
something that I've chosen to give a fuck about is my friends.
And I mean I I find it. Admirable because I feel like
this is something. It's funny because you often
hear like there are people who choose to invest very heavily in
like a romantic relationship. There are people who invest very
heavily in like a professional opportunity or professional
relationship. It it at least in our culture.
I mean, this is probably, it's probably different in some other
parts of the world, but like investing, making that choice of
like, I am going to highly prioritize my friendships and
really go, no pun intended, the extra mile for them.
I think it's not only rare today, but it, it like I do find
it really interesting and, and maybe like more of us should be
doing like, I definitely like this is an area of my life where
I'm like, I probably should invest more in my friendships.
Like I'm, I'm a workaholic, I'm a homebody.
Like, I, I, I sometimes struggle to just, like, follow up with
people with a text, you know, it much less like, get on a fucking
plane and go to their anniversary.
So this is definitely an area of my life that I, I wish I gave
more Fox or I was better at giving Fox.
So I, and it is a rare thing, like, I don't know anybody else
who does stuff like that regularly.
Yeah. And you asked if I, if I do it,
I, I've done, I've gone on a plane to go see friends plenty
of times. Yeah, throughout my adult life,
I've done this. And even, like there was times I
didn't have much money and I was so like, you know what, screw
it, I'm going to go do this. A, a wedding that's halfway
across the country or, or more. Yeah, I've done that.
And to me, it's just like, yeah, 'cause that's what you do.
That is what like, to me, it's so self-evident.
Like if you want, if you want to like nurture these friendships,
you have to nurture these friendships, right.
I think a lot of people, you know, it's like, oh, sorry, I'm
in LA and I, you know, I've got work stuff going on.
Can't make it to me. That's kind of like, well then
you can't really complain about not having friends in that
situation. Do you ever run into, because
sometimes like I will feel inspired and like want to reach
out or like, you know, maybe I'll like pop back to New York
for a friends thing or go see somebody.
You know, it's like so so and so's birthday or whatever, but I
don't know, like it. It's especially if I haven't
seen somebody in a couple years, haven't talked to him a whole
lot. Like, I don't know, sometimes I
worry I'm like, is it going to be weird?
I've gotten over that. I, I, I just go for it now.
Anytime that comes up for me, I sense I just shoot somebody a
text. Like anytime I start thinking
about somebody and that that's been more recent.
I think any time that pops up and be like, hey, just was just
thinking about this thing that we did or whatever a while back.
How's it, how's it going? I don't hesitate with that as
much anymore for sure. What what would you say is like
the the Drew Bernie principles of being a good friend or like
fostering good friendships? Number one is showing up, show
up. It it is, it's showing up.
And I was, I was actually talking with my dad about this
not too long ago. And he went to like a, a funeral
or something that was within the family.
And it was kind of, it was like not like immediate family, you
know, it was a little bit removed.
And he showed up and people were like, oh, it's good to see you.
Kind of surprised we saw you. And he's like, what are you,
what are you talking about? Like this is what we do.
We show up. And I think I just from a, a
younger age, it was like, you just show up for people.
Yeah, that's rule #1 right there.
It's so funny 'cause it's so obvious and I remember, you
know, you and I did an, an episode earlier this year about
adult friendships. And it's like when you look at
the the research on how friendships are made, like the
number one thing is frequency of exposure, like how literally how
often you physically see or speak to a person.
It's been, it's been wild to me to see how much, how true that
is and or even just a small little gestures of, of showing
up in different ways. Like it means a lot to people.
It it means a lot. And I, I mentioned I think on
that episode too, where I have reconnected with like childhood
friends and either just through reaching out with them or
getting on a plane and going and seeing them and it's a
completely different relationship.
Then you get like it's, it's like a new friendship that
you're going to start again as an adult.
And it's just, I don't know, I'm not sure if I have any good tips
on like making friends, but I know like keeping friends.
This is that's kind of what I'm talking about.
Here so principle #1 showing up, what else?
Being first, like acting first. I think putting yourself out
there first always being like showing vulnerability, maybe
what it is or telling, telling somebody like how much they mean
to you, not waiting for that from from them inviting.
Inviting them the stuff. Inviting.
Yeah, Yes. Reaching out, following up.
Yeah, You know, we have IA group of my friends back in Colorado.
We have like a, a dinner club and we kind of get off track
every now and then, but it's about once a month we try to get
together and you it, it's, it's so great because now everybody's
like, oh, no, I want to host, I want to host, I want to host.
You know, I'd like now everybody's like, they, they
realize what it is like offering being the 1st to offer is
actually like the right move here and, and, and showing up
for everybody in that way is is really, really important.
What would you say? So the going first thing like,
yeah, I'm bad at that and I don't know why.
Like it's funny, you know, I had a lot of social anxiety when I
was younger and I, there's definitely sometimes like some
remnants of social anxiety. And it, it's funny because it
really only pops up in very specific contexts.
But for some reason one of those contacts is like invitations,
reaching out to somebody I haven't talked to in like 6
months, following up with somebody.
And it's so silly. Like I, I don't know, like I
have these moments where I'm like, I don't know, I feel like
a, a high school kid all over again who's like worried that
the cool kids not going to like want to hang out with me.
So that's something that I need to get.
I need to like practice and get better.
And I imagine it is a practice. You just.
The more you do it, the easier. 100%, yeah, yeah, I've
definitely found that over the years.
Yeah. And I think one other thing
though, too is just like help people.
Maybe that's the same as going first, I don't know.
But just if you can help somebody with something like
people really, really appreciate that.
Now, again, this is like a, a maintenance thing, kind of a
friendship maintenance thing. But you know, I've had several
of my friends tell me, you know, like, hey, if actually the, the
couple that I went to go see for the anniversary, they said if we
ever got into a situation where we were in jail or you know,
anything like that, we would call you.
We would definitely call you because we know that you're
you're going to show up, but you're also going to have the
ability to help us out, help with something.
Bury the body and. Yes, I would be very good at
that. Dispose of the evidence.
I do have a lot of shovels, so yeah, we can do that.
I I'd probably call you for that too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's really funny.
It's just the more you give, the more you get.
Yeah, it really is. That's really a yeah, that's a
true thing. All right.
Moment of truth though, OK. Do you ever get frustrated
'cause I imagine a lot of people don't reciprocate these
principles? Do you ever find yourself
getting frustrated with people? No, no.
I don't think I do. It's really unconditional.
Like you just kind of give and you're like, if people don't
reach out back to you or do things back for you, you like
you don't get frustrated or resentful or.
No, I mean, I if it was something, I guess if it was
like a huge sum of money or something like that and then
they just never talked to me again.
Maybe I would, but it's never been like that.
I, I just find that I, I, I don't know if you just what else
is there to do but help people in life.
Honestly, what else is there to do?
I know that sounds cheesy as shit and but seriously, when it
comes down to it, like what? What else is there to do?
We're gonna Photoshop like you and a A.
So. Cheesy and a Mother Teresa nun
outfit and then put in the cheesy cursive font like the the
What else is there to do but help people?
I'm not OK. Yes, I'm OK.
I'm virtue signaling. Yes, yes, you got me.
Fine, put some PBS music under it like.
No. Light a candle.
But it's not even that. It's just, I mean like.
You're not wrong. Hold a.
Door open for somebody like even down to that like just what else
is there to do about help? People, I mean, I'm with you,
like, and, and I think ultimately, like
philosophically, the things that feel meaningful in the long run
are the things that we do for other people, the impact that we
have on people's lives and the relationships we build from that
impact. It's so funny too, because like
it is a lot of these things they do sound very cliche, but I also
think you're a little bit ahead of the curve.
I think people are just too cynical these days.
Like it's just a. 100% it's just too.
It's too easy to like sit in your phone and look at a billion
things and disagree with everybody about everything and
just be like, that's lame. I'm not going to go do that and
and make up an excuse to sit at home and, you know, jerk off
with the cat like it's it's this is this is what our social lives
have come to. I mean, I don't, I don't know
you, you have a dog. Maybe I don't, I don't know,
like whatever, whatever you're into, hamster, whatever you're
into. Whatever you the catches in the
corner watching what is fucking going on here?
Back to the Mother Teresa. Back to the yeah, let's, let's
stick with the Mother Teresa. But yeah, I think it's too easy
to do that. And I definitely, again, I feel
my, I feel myself getting sucked into that cynical vortex, right?
Well, yeah, the conversation with John Height, he talked
about this too, right? Like that, that television,
probably it didn't rot our brains, but it probably
destroyed social capital. It isolated us.
And I would say, you know,
modern digital technology does that even more.
So absolutely. Yeah, that's that's another goes
back to the showing up thing. But I, I have a default
basically to just say yes. When everybody, somebody invites
me to something, I kind of just, I say yes.
And then, you know, it's, it's one of those things you get to
the day and you're like, oh, I said yes to this thing that
happens all the time. And I still go.
And nine times out of 10, I'm so glad that I went 100%.
So just yeah, putting yourself out there, getting going.
I don't know though. OK, So that that though is
again, that's a lot of like friendship maintenance stuff.
And again, I have the capacity and like the bandwidth to be
able to do that because I don't have these other big
relationship obligations in my life right now.
Yeah, I mean, if you got married, it'd ruin all this.
Well, OK. So is that, is that true?
Because I think a lot of people say, well, it's nice.
It must be nice. You don't have, you know, a
partner and kids and this job that is just draining and you
know. I, I think so relationships and
kids, it's not that it gets harder, it just it, there's more
complexity. Every time you, you make a
friend or meet somebody, there's kind of like this, this internal
process as you figure out, OK, does my wife like his wife?
Like, is this going to be like a, a couple's friendship, which
you have like, that's a thing. Is it like, oh, this is one of
my guy friends or this is, you know, this is going to be like
her friend or this is my friend or whatever.
And then I think when you introduce kids, there's like an
even like there's a third layer of that complexity, which is,
does our kid get along with their kid?
Are they close in age? Do they play well together?
Then it's do we get along with the parents?
Could we travel with them? You know, it often times what
you find is, and this gets frustrated when you're when
you're when you're married is, you know, it's like my wife will
meet somebody and they get along great.
They become they, they start to become really good friends.
And then I go meet the husband and it's like, we have nothing
in common and we have nothing to talk about.
And so then it kind of becomes this question of like, OK, do he
and I just kind of like quietly suffer through an awkward, you
know, dinners or weekend or whatever so that our wives can
be happy or have fun or do do they just go off and be friends
on their own? So there, there's a lot of like,
I don't know, situations like that, but I, I think the
principle is the same. You show up for people, you go
first, you reach out first and you be helpful.
Right, right. Yeah, and again, it goes back to
the like understanding the trade-offs.
I think if there, there are people who probably do sit here
and you know, they say, oh, must be nice not to have kids, not
to, you know, be married and unattached to all these things
and whatever. There's also, I understand that
trade off though. I I don't have a stable partner
and that security that that's, that's there for me.
And instead I've put that energy into some friendships, you know,
which, you know, when it comes down to it, you know, my, my
friends who are married or whatever, they have that stable
one person they can go to for everything.
I don't have that. So I've I've traded that off.
I will say it it it like it can work in the other direction too.
Like it is really cool. Like when you do find, it's hard
to find. But when you do find that couple
where you both like them, both equally like, and they both like
you both equally, it's awesome. Yeah.
Like it's a really cool thing, but it's it's hard to find.
Yeah, well, that was kind of my next point I was going to make
was the finding depth over breath.
Like if you can find that couple at, you know, you don't need to
find 10 couples that you can hang out with.
You just, you probably need one to two couples that you guys can
hang out with regularly. And I think you're going to be
set. You know, I, I, I joke, I don't
have like tons and tons of friends.
I have a group of a core group of, of people that I can turn
to. And then you know, there, then
there's kind of a concentric rings, you know, the circles
going further out. But I think focusing more on
depth of relationships, especially as you get older, is
definitely the way to go. Drew Bernie goes deep inside.
Just a few people got that. And now a word from our sponsor.
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Drew has come back from his submergence.
What? What's on the docket today,
Drew? What?
What is brilliant or bullshitty today?
What are we? Brilliant or bullshit Mark, can
Youtubers take the place of some of your casual friends?
Youtubers, content creators, personal or public figures?
What do you think of this? I am the only emotional
sustenance anybody needs. Like and subscribe.
Yeah, like and subscribe, smash that like button and I too will
be your friend. Yeah.
Wait, no, is this really a thing?
Like being like what it? What is this?
So there's this study it, it came out in Nature too.
So, you know, a high impact journal, prestigious journal,
prestigious journal, which not doesn't mean it's right, but you
know, people perceive what they call parasocial relationships,
which are basically 11 sided ships.
It's like a YouTube, a celebrity, even fictional
characters even too people can actually they report anyway that
those relationships that they have, those one sided
relationships they have are actually more fulfilling than
just like a casual acquaintance in person interaction that they
might have or relationship. You might have a a repeated
relationship with somebody who's kind of considered like a casual
friend. OK, they actually find it more
emotionally fulfilling to have a A1 sided relationship with a
public figure of some kind. That makes sense to me.
OK, And that that actually might.
And all kidding aside, that actually does make sense to me.
Only because it's a casual friendship or a casual
acquaintance. Right.
So it wasn't the same. It wasn't the case with close
personal. Close.
Relationship. Those were value.
The most valuable, right? That makes sense to me because
as somebody who like if you watch streamers, for instance,
it's I'm a huge gamer as most, most my fans know, I've been
watching Twitch almost daily for the last 10 years.
I follow a lot of big streamers. I like watching.
To me, it's actually very fascinating to watch streams,
like watch the chat, the community around a streamer and
how they interact with them. And then there's been a few
streamers that I've been fans of and I've interacted with.
So I get that because it is very like the the streaming culture.
And I think to a less like TikTok feels a little bit this
way to a lesser extent. I think some of the way that
people use Instagram through like Instagram Stories or
Snapchat, a lot of these forms of social media, it is extremely
parasocial. It's it's basically optimized
for a parasocial relationship. You know, most of the social
media stuff that I do or that we do, it's like very
unidirectional. It's like broadcast, you know,
So it's like we post, I post stuff I write on on Twitter and
Instagram and you know, I we craft these highly produced
YouTube videos and then we produce these pod.
This is probably the closest thing we have to like a pair of
social relationships with the audience.
But like there's a lot of social media out there that is very
much geared and optimized to make people feel like they're
hanging out with a fun and cool friend.
I understand too why it's more satisfying because it requires
no investment. It's always entertaining, like
the, the person you're a fan of or whatever.
Like they, they entertain you, they make you happy, they make
you laugh and there's like there's zero downside or social
risk. Whereas when you meet a, a
stranger, an acquaintance, like let's say you go to a birthday
party or something, you meet somebody new.
There's like all this awkward stuff that happens of like, am I
saying the right thing? Was that joke weird?
Am I being funny? Like, does this person like me?
You know, like there's kind of this like a lot of the awkward
stuff that you have to feel out when you meet a new person and
you're not really sure if if they like you or not.
So I get it. I told, I actually totally get
it. Yeah.
That I believe it. I, I, I don't think this is
bullshit. I think it's it's brilliant.
Well, and the, the authors of this study too, they kind of
theorized that there's, there's kind of this shift going on
right now. And it, it was, it's for a long
time in the, the kind of Media Research landscape, it's been
thought that people kind of glom onto these relationship, these
parasocial relationships because they don't have anything else in
their, they're using it in place of something else in their life.
They're saying, actually this might be like kind of a healthy
way to to feel like you have some sense of either belonging
or in this case, what it really is, is that the they feel like
these these relationships are at least responsive to them.
Not directly, like they're not responding to them, but they're
like they're responsive to my needs because they're talking
about things that are important to me or they're making content
about things that are important to me.
And they are the person on in aggregate.
Again, I'm thinking of streamers here in aggregate, they are
like, you are part of 2000 people in the chat that the
streamer is responding to, you know, so it's like if the chat
kind of like gets upset about something or starts, you know,
trashing the streamer or making jokes or whatever, like the
streamer is going to react. So it is there is some form of
interaction that's going on. And I also agree with that too.
Like I, I definitely again, like there are a number of people
that I follow on social media that that I have somewhat of a
parasocial relationship. Like I'm a fan.
I enjoy just kind of sitting around watching him play a game.
I think they're funny. Like I think they're
communities, interesting or entertaining.
And to me, it, it definitely supplements my social life.
It's not a replacement for my social life.
Yeah. So I get that too.
OK. Yeah.
Well, another interesting finding from this study was
they, they did three different studies in this and the last one
they did was they kind of well, well, first of all, they, they
gave people a self esteem questionnaire and kind of
divided them into high and low self esteem.
And then they, they had them write about a time in which they
were socially threatened in some way, you know, like being
ostracized or or neglected in some way from a group or
whatever it was. And then they asked them another
series of questions about these parasocial relationships with
Youtubers. Whatever they had, the people
with high self esteem still thought, you know, like, yes,
during these times, I would like they would help assuage some of
this like social threat that I had the people with low self
esteem just consistently, it doesn't matter if they're
they're socially threatened or not, they consistently turn
towards them. So I think there might that
might be hinting at this the beginnings of a toxic
relationship with this. So I'm, I'm, I'm wondering about
the limits here. What do you think about that?
Obviously, like if somebody's crazy and they're talking, I'm
not talking about that. Level there are definitely
unhealthy parasocial relationships and I definitely
do think there are streamers and creators who kind of foster a
toxic relationship with their audience.
You know, they, it's, they kind of thrive on antisocial
behaviour and then the audience kind of gets the, the vicarious
thrill of the antisocial behaviour through the streamer.
And I, yeah, I think it can just, it's, it's another case of
like attracting a lot of very low self esteem people and then
like having them live vicariously through your risk
taking and your like egregious behaviour to kind of like get
them, I guess hooked on your personality to a certain extent.
There's a lot of culty type stuff that goes on.
I think if you, I think it's, it's kind of impossible to, to
talk about this without bringing up only fans and just like the
insane numbers behind only fans. I not that I've been familiar
with only fans. I'm actually in seriousness, I'm
not familiar with only fans. I've never been, I've never even
tried to do that. I've never signed up for only
fans, but I've heard stories of just like insane shit that's
happened on only fans and like absurd amounts of money that are
paid to usually women for like very toxic behaviors.
I do know that like there are there are a number of models on
only fans that just like have entire teams of fake people
messaging their fans on their behalf, like flirting with these
like desperate lonely guys. So as with any human
relationship, there are there's of course permutations of
toxicity within parasocial relationships.
But I do think that the parasocial thing, I think it's
very interesting and and I think this is one of the few cases
that that I think social media is a marked improvement over,
say, television or film. OK, Because in the TV era,
people would have parasocial relationships with just this
like fictional image on a screen.
You know, it's like people would become a Tom Cruise fan and
obsess about Tom Cruise when really it's like all you did,
you just saw him in Risky Business and Top Gun.
Like you don't you literally know nothing about the guy.
Like he I mean, he is, he turned out to be a head case and like
nobody knew. Whereas social media you're at
you are. Maybe you're not getting like
the full authentic version of the of the person on social
media, but you are getting some facet of their actual
personality. And you are it's driven much
more by authenticity. Like the people who tend to
become famous online, they tend to be famous for being who they
are, not because they're playing a character in a movie or not
because they're like, you know, on stage performing something.
It's like they're in their room, they're being who they are.
They've got this quirky or interesting personality.
They're like really attractive or entertaining in some way.
And so and they they're able to foster an ethos within their
community that people like being a part of.
And so I think that is actually like a much better form of
parasocial relationship than say when we were growing up and just
like had fucking coasters of Cindy Crawford or.
You know, or obsessing over. Some random celebrity and from.
Yeah, totally. OK, yeah.
So what do you what is this though?
Like obviously we have not evolved to to even be able to
keep up with an environment like this.
Why? What is what is being hacked
about our brains? Do you like in this situation?
So I find it it is very interesting that it like people
rate them higher than they're just casual in person
relationships, but lower than their close connections.
And yet there's a lot of loneliness going on and people
say they want more friends. Is it is it just is it?
I don't what it what is it? What is it hacking in our
brains? Well, I think it removes the
friction like it allows you to feel socially connected and part
of something with like, again, with 0 frictions, no cost.
The problem is, is that there the, the ceiling on any
parasocial relationship is extremely low, right?
Like it's so it's, it's easy to get in and get a, get a dose of
it, But you know, the, the satisfaction that you get in
week one or month 1 is probably like it's never, it's probably
never going to get much higher than that.
Whereas with a casual acquaintance, you know, meeting
that random person at a party, having those awkward
conversations, stumbling through a couple like weird jokes or
whatever, that can eventually evolve into a very deep and
satisfying friendship. Like the ceiling on in person
interactions is infinitely high, whereas the ceiling on online
parasocial interactions is extremely low.
It's just easy to hit that ceiling.
So I think it's it's path of least resistance.
OK, OK. I mean, we've talked about this
internally about the podcast. Podcasting is very different in
that people listen to it while they're doing something else.
And, you know, it's like when we make a YouTube video, people are
just sitting down to watch the YouTube video.
When we write, like when I write a book, people are just sitting
down and reading the book. But with podcasting, you know,
most people, statistically most people are listening to this
right now in their cars, cleaning the kitchen, taking out
the trash in the gym. And so there is I-1 of the
lessons. You know, we talked a couple
episodes ago about lessons we learned from the first year
podcasting. One of the lessons I definitely
learned is that like this medium is it's much less about, you
know, like sexy hooks and like hitting people in the face with
a bunch of value and you know, it.
It's much more you're kind of hanging out with people as they
go about their lives and it you're, you're like kind of a
companion to them. And so I mean, it's it, it's
definitely a reality and like what we work on and think about
for sure. Well, and I mean, I do it as
well, the podcast I listen to, I, I see it as 100%.
This is a parasocial relationship, 100%.
And so that's why, yeah, I'm calling brilliant on this one
too. It's not not bullshit.
It's all brilliant. On that note, we'll be right
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All right, we're back. What sort of questions we have
this week, Drew? Well, I have a couple of
questions, one from Julie. This was submitted on YouTube.
She asked is it possible to have a fulfilling life without
friends? The data would suggest no.
And through the yeah, hard no, actually.
Yeah, pretty hard. No, we are very much wired for
social relationships like a a group being a part of a group,
feeling a sense of belonging. Like if you look up anything
about psychological needs like belonging is one of the first
and foremost ones towards mental health.
There's I don't know how true this is.
I don't know where this statistic originated, but there
is a a statistic that I've heard forever, which is that social
isolation is just as unhealthy for you or has just as much of
an effect on your life expectancy as smoking a pack of
cigarettes a day. I've.
Seen that's more too, yeah. Which is pretty mind blowing,
yeah. So yeah, I do think, I do think
friends or some sort of community or group that you feel
like you're a part of is is absolutely fundamental.
I think the word you said there was belonging to the thing I had
to figure out was I, I felt like I could fit in in a lot of
different places, but I didn't feel like I belonged in a lot of
different places. And that was all dependent on
the people. It was all dependent on
friendships. I've lived in a lot of different
spots and, you know, felt like, yeah, I can fit in here.
That's, you know, I can, I can survive.
I'll be fine. Having a sense of belonging
though, I think is like, that's next level.
What is it? I just feel like I can be myself
when I feel like I'm in a place where I belong.
I just, I don't feel, and I'm sure you feel this like in your
marriage, you've you've mentioned this before.
You feel like you can just there's, there's no pretense,
there's no guard up. I feel like I can just be me
without having to perform, without having to prove myself
in any way either to it, just just like a level of
unconditionality there that I can feel.
And I think for me anyway, that's that was developed over
time. It didn't it wasn't a thing that
came. I, I know some people that go
somewhere and like I belong here.
This is it. I know it.
And whether that that turns out to be true or not, I have no
idea. But there's people who feel that
instantly. For me it's a slow burn thing.
Interesting. Yeah.
It's funny because this is actually very like, this is very
relevant in my life at the moment because my wife really
misses New York, and she is. We've had this conversation
where she says, I feel like I belong there and I don't belong
here. And I feel kind of the opposite.
I feel like in New York, I can fit in in New York, I can do the
New York thing. But here I feel like myself much
more. And to me it's, you know, in, in
my conversations with her and like really digging into this
and like what this is, we kind of discovered that it it a lot
of it's reflective of, of personal values.
Like for me, it's Lai feel like not even LA, just like Southern
California, it nudges me. The environment nudges me into
being a better version of myself.
That's an important point too, yeah.
Whereas in New York, the environment nudges me into being
a worse version of myself. It it kind of nudges me into a
lot of my addictions and compulsions and anxieties.
So what was that, though? What like the decision around
moving from New York to LA, What was the conversation around
that? Because you had to have been
thinking of the trade-offs, right?
Yeah. What was the conversation of
that with your wife? I mean, you know, she's from
Brazil, you're from Texas. New York is cold as shit in the
winter. Was that?
I mean, you know, did you're like, oh God, I'm tired of these
winters and we're just going to move and.
You didn't think of all the other?
Things around it. Or it's funny, I I have a very
contrarian take on on weather, which is I feel like.
So the the two things that I've here's a hill I, I will die on.
If you love, if you love where you live or if you feel like you
belong where you live. Whether and taxes don't matter.
Yeah. Any time like that about
Colorado. So yeah.
Anytime, anytime I hear somebody start like discussing taxes or
whether I'm like, they should move because they clearly don't
love where they are anymore. Can you imagine?
Like moving somewhere from all the taxes.
I'm like, oh dude. What the fuck?
Get some rich friends like it. Fuck it.
Comes up all the time, which kills because I'm like, dude,
like you're really going to uproot your whole life to save
like, you know, 8% on your income, you're already making a
bajillion dollars. But it's, it's funny, actually,
I think Derek Sivers actually said this to me privately once.
He said he said everywhere in the world has the same tax rate,
you just pay in different ways. Oh, that's 100% rate.
He would know too. He's lived all over.
He's paid taxes in like 5 different.
Countries, so yeah. So, yeah, it's, I'm definitely a
staunch believer of that. But like the conversation around
leaving New York, it was very much, I mean, New York has, it
burns you out pretty hard. Like it's, it's overwhelming.
There's so much going on. She and I also lived there
during the pandemic. We went through like we, we went
through, I mean, we had been there for six years.
We went through the pandemic. We had a bunch of like very bad
experiences with where we lived, which New York is absolutely
famous for its atrocious housing and services.
So like we, we just just had a nightmare scenario with one of
the apartments we lived in. And so we, we came out of it
just like we went to New Zealand to, because I was shooting, I
was doing the movie. So we spent a few months down
there. And while we were down there, we
were like, we got to get out of New York.
This is, it's too much, we need to leave.
And we actually spent a lot of time in New Zealand and we went
to a part of the South Island. We spent most of our time in
Auckland and we went to Wellington.
We went part of the South Island.
And, and you know, she was like, I could, is there anywhere in
the US that's kind of like this? Because I could do this and I
was like it then it's Southern California.
That's kind of it, right? So yeah, then we came out here,
we spent a few weeks here that summer.
We looked at houses, we hung out with a bunch of friends and we
loved it. But it's funny because there,
there is a, you know, there's there's the honeymoon phase of a
location and say a group of friends.
And then there's the actual relationship with the place you
live and with the group of friends.
And for me, the honeymoon phase turned into like a very great
relationship. I've got my gripes.
As with every relationship, there's a downside to living
anywhere. But, you know, for her, it's,
it's, I think it's, she realized it's like, it's not a perfect
fit. So it is interesting.
That's a question I've been thinking about quite a bit
lately. It's like what is belonging?
And, and, and it's because you, there's a certain aspect of it
you can't control. It's just, you just feel it.
Yeah. Yeah, I you do.
And for the longest time I just thought, well, I don't belong
anywhere. That's what how I felt.
And then once you do, you're like, oh God, you know, like
what? This is what I've been missing
the whole time. And it's sad to me that a lot of
people don't find that. I I would compare that feeling
to relationships like it's it's. Well, OK, that's the other
question. OK, Can you be happy without a
romantic relationship? Yes, you can I get the data
back. Yeah, yeah.
There's plenty of, plenty of people who are single.
So here's the one that this one comes up.
We, we had a, we had a question come in through the newsletter
recently that I did not answer in the newsletter because I told
Val I was like, I'm going to write 8 pages if I try to answer
this. But a number of questions have
come through around this, around sex.
Like I, I would throw it there. We can throw a third question to
the end of this Can you be happy without sex?
That that question actually came up too.
I didn't include it here, but. Yeah, so let's do romantic
relationships first so you can come you can totally be happy
throughout your life completely single without a a a romantic
relationship. That said, people in romantic
relationships, it's it's, it cuts both ways.
So if the relationship's good, you are, you will be happier
than you were if you were single.
And if the relationship is bad, you'll be less happy than you.
You are fucking common sense. But it's, it's the sort of thing
like it's, you know, I guess risk reward type thing.
So it's better to be single than in a bad relationship, but it's
better to be in a good relate. Like on average you will be
happier in a good relationship than no relationship.
What do you think about turning your friends into romantic
relationships dude as I think that's a great way to do it.
I don't know. But I would argue that so OK, so
it's funny when I, when I the the fun thing about getting
married is that everybody you've ever known, every old person
you've ever known starts just giving you unsolicited advice,
OK? Like what to do, what not to do.
You, you actually learn a lot about your like extended family,
about some of the shit that they say to you.
But it was interesting. You know, Fernanda and I, we
noticed that like when we got married, all of the old people
in our families who were still married and still happy, they
all said the same thing. They said the friendship has to
come first. The friend, like, if you're not
friends, nothing else will last or like, the best way it was put
to me is that everything else is going to come and go.
You know, the, the sex is going to come and go.
The attractiveness is going to come and go.
Like their careers going to do great.
It's going to do bad. Your career is going to do
great. It's going to everything's going
to be in flux all the time. The only thing that's going to
keep everything like tethered together is a strong friendship.
If the friendship's not there, you're going to just be tossed,
you know, like in a, in a storm. So that made a lot of sense to
me. And, and I, you know, as
somebody who's been married 12 or been with her for 12 years,
that feels very true. It's like every year's
different. Our lives change constantly.
She and I both change quite a bit.
We're both very different people than we were ten years ago.
But the friendship is like what holds everything together.
Right, right. Yeah.
And that, I mean, I went the anniversary party.
I went back for anniversary dinner.
They've been together 15 years since they were, like, babies or
like babies. Late teens are like, in college,
they meant. Yeah.
And that they say the same
thing. There's no way you can make it
through that without being really good friends.
I feel like any, any happy couple I've ever talked to about
this, they all say that it's the friendship has to come first.
And it's funny, it's similar. It's like the tax.
So sex is the taxes of relationships.
Like any times people start complaining about sex, it's
like, OK, there's no friendship there.
Like, like they've lost the friendship.
Because I have found that like when, when people are unhappy in
the relationship, that's when that's when they start getting
upset about about sex. That's when they start getting
upset about like, well, he spends this money and, you know,
I think we should be saving more and like, you know, or like she
should take the kids to school more often.
They start arguing about chores. They start arguing about like,
you know, all like the, the kind of surface level stuff that if
there's a, a happy, stable friendship there, yeah, you'll
argue about it. But it sorts itself out because
it's like when you're happy together, you're both willing
to, to compromise and like, be like, you know what, I'll, I'll
take the kids to school. You know, I'll, I'll do this,
like she'll do that, you know, whatever.
But when there's not a friendship there, it becomes a
power struggle. And then it's like, well, you
know, I'm not going to give this up because you didn't give that
up and you're not giving me this, so I'm not going to give
you that. But if you give me that, I'll
give you this, right? Like would.
You treat your friend that way, like.
No, Right. Yeah, no.
That's like you'd fucking stop being friends with that person.
But for some reason in a romantic relationship, a lot of
people think that this is like completely justified behavior.
Right. And it's because they're not
friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I would also say to the best relationship advice, like the
best dating advice is to go make new friends.
Yeah, they're not not necessarily even to date them,
but you're going to meet more people that way.
And then you also start from that friends friendship as a
priority type of thing. You see how relationships were
just friends work and then to get into relationships after
that. I, I think that's, I don't know,
I don't think I've ever really turned a like a good friend into
a relationship. That's never really happened
with me. But I've met a lot of friends.
I've met a lot of people I've dated through through friends.
I feel I I've heard of that happening.
I don't think it's very common, but I would be very curious to
see if if there's any data out there on marriage success based
on how you meet. I imagine there is.
I imagine meeting through friends is probably the most
successful way to like find a partner.
I imagine maybe meeting through work is another one.
I imagine dating apps is it's hit rate is not great.
Yeah, I, I don't know, we'd have to look into that.
That's a, that's a good one to look up.
Yeah, Yeah, I like it. Maybe.
Maybe that's the next brilliant or bullshit thing, yeah.
Could be. All right, cool.
Well, that's all for this episode.
Be sure to submit your questions.
You can either comment on YouTube or send them to podcast
at markmanson.net. Please be sure to follow the
show, like and subscribe. Do all that good stuff.
It helps us know that we're doing a good job, helps us feel
like we have a parasocial relationship with you.
What is the weekly wisdom this week?
Comes from the great philosopher Bruce Lee.
Love is like a friendship caught on.
Fire fire emoji. Fire emoji.
All right, on that note, see you guys next week.
Thanks for listening. The Subtle Art I'm not giving a
Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie.
It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer
and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we
will see you next week.