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OK, Zeeshan, good morning. 
No, you normally edit at night I

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think, don't you? 
So I'll say good evening and 

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goodnight. 
I'm gonna start in 321. 

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Welcome to Issued for 
Construction. 

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I'm your host, Jonathan Jacobs, 
and they've got with me 

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gentleman who's an architect but
not your standard architect. 

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Because, you know, there are 
different kinds of architects 

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out there, specialize in all 
different kinds of things. 

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And most of you who are 
architects know that. 

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But did you know that there is a
specialty in architecture that 

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designs fountains? 
Because today I've got with me a

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gentleman whose works at a 
practice called DO, which is Dan

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User Water Architecture. 
I have Steve Euser with me where

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he's been working with his dad 
for years and they have been 

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designing fountains all over the
world. 

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And if you're listening to this 
right now, there's a good chance

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you'll have experienced one of 
them. 

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So, Steve. 
Hey, it's nice to be here. 

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Thanks for joining. 
Yeah, also what none of you 

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know, Steve and I are neighbors.
Yep, just down the street. 

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So, so Steve, if you can start 
off, we'll go all the way back 

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into the beginnings of your 
life. 

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Where were you born? 
What did that look like? 

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What kind of kid were you? 
Were you exploratory? 

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Were you scientific? 
Were you mathematic? 

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Were you creative? 
Let's get into it. 

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Alright, well, I would say born 
in North York. 

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North York General 1982 So 
dating myself immediately, but 

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yeah, I grew up as a kid. 
Very creative, very outdoorsy. 

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I would say, you know, 
summertime was really about 

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going camping. 
That was like our passion as a 

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family. 
We were always. 

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Out in the woods, go to 
Killarney, go to Grundy, go 

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exploring other provincial 
parks. 

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And you remember this from like 
being. 

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Hell yeah. 
My my mom would always say 

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you've been camping since before
you were. 

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Born. 
And that was pretty much true. 

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We would do at least two to 
three weeks every summer of 

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solid camping, often in two week
stint and then a one week stint 

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somewhere. 
Else this is this Backcountry 

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killing or are you hiking? 
When we were younger it was car 

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camping, car camping like, well,
tent car camping, provincial 

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parks and then no trailer or 
anything like that. 

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My dad and I think more so than 
my mom. 

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Was a bit. 
Of a purist in that regard. 

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Yeah, but I've got to be an old 
canvas tent. 

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But uh, yeah, You know, until we
were old enough to carry packs 

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and canoes and all that stuff, 
which was, you know, probably 

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around 12 or 13. 
When when I was around that age,

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my younger brothers two years 
younger, my older brothers two 

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years older. 
I'm right in the middle of the 

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group there. 
But we were all kind of big 

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enough at that point to to go 
for a week. 

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Interior where it was worthwhile
to you know. 

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Have a backpack? 
And I loved it. 

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It was passion, definitely 
canoeing, being out in the open 

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water. 
You know, going hiking, we spent

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so many hours, we'd get up crack
of dawn, OK, we're gonna go on a

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hike and it's seven and a half, 
eight hours later that we get 

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home, which is great. 
Yeah. 

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It, it was really a part of part
of my life for for sure. 

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And then creativity side of 
things. 

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I was always drawing, sketching.
OK. 

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We would dig up clay when we 
were camping and make stuff on 

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the picnic tables at the beach. 
What would you make? 

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Let's say everything from. 
Balls to sculptures of like 

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castles or ridiculous things 
like a little toilet, you know? 

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Whatever we could think of. 
Sometimes I would try and make 

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more complicated things. 
You're not using refined clay at

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that point. 
So it's it's a little messy. 

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And then just drawing and 
painting. 

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And I was really into 
watercolour as a kid and 

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sketching, always had a 
sketchbook. 

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I always had a pencil with me. 
Definitely really took 

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opportunity to do that when we 
are out and downtime because 

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mostly we were. 
Like free roaming when we went 

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camping. 
And even outside of camping, I 

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did a lot of lot of art. 
Just loved, loved doing art as a

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kid. 
Drawing. 

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Were you painting? 
Yeah, so I would. 

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Say for most of my life, early 
years mostly drawing, sketching 

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and then practicing with 
watercolor, I was really, I 

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really liked watercolor. 
I think it was more accessible 

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to me because you could start 
with like Tempra Paint and use 

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it like watercolor. 
And I remember my first 

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watercolor paper that my parents
got me one year. 

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I couldn't tell you whether it 
was for Christmas or my birthday

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or whatever. 
And I painted a wolf and I was 

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so proud of it. 
And the proportions were. 

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Questionable, but, but I liked 
it. 

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It was good. 
And that was just like, you 

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know, weekends or after school. 
Doing that sort of thing. 

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And what were what were your 
interests when academically like

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what what did you what did you 
feel it was came most naturally 

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to? 
You. 

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I would say for me, I. 
I was OK at math and I was OK at

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English, and science I really 
liked, but art I was very good 

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at. 
And grade six, Grade 7, maybe it

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was grade 7. 
Yeah, Grade 7. 

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Um, had a teacher who went up to
teach art. 

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This is like my my parents sent 
us to a private Christian School

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when I was a kid. 
They wanted us to have a good 

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upbringing. 
Yeah. 

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So. 
Yeah, anyway, he, he went up to 

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the board and he started drawing
stick figures and I was pissed. 

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I, I didn't, I didn't say that 
to him and, and lash out in a 

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directly, but I remember going 
home from school and just being 

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angry about it. 
And so my, I think it was my mom

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who had suggested, you know, 
well, if you don't like it, so 

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it's suggest, you know, if you 
could teach art to your 

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classmates, you're good at it. 
You know what you're doing. 

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So I did. 
He made me come up with a 

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proposal and he's like, OK, 
I'll, I'll hear you out. 

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And he said, OK, well, you know,
I'd like to teach some colour 

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theory and. 
How to colour? 

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And how to like render shapes in
3D? 

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And how to do 2 point 
perspective and three-point 

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perspective? 
And so like grade 7 and eight I.

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You were. 
Helping TA on a grade school 

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level art class and and I think 
the teacher was very happy to do

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that because it just wasn't his 
Forte. 

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He was kind of stuck with doing 
it. 

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So yeah, that was that was a lot
of fun. 

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It it, it certainly opened my 
eyes to where everybody else 

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was. 
At when it came to art and how 

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far I had already grown in what 
I had kind of just been dabbling

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with, right? 
Yeah, it was. 

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It was definitely an eye opening
experience for that side of 

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things. 
But I, I think you know, 

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outside, outside of the art 
stuff to shoot. 

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I mean, I would I would do. 4 
build forts in the woods and I I

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made a bow and arrow one year. 
My dad helped me cast. 

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Well, what did you use? 
Just like sapwood from some tree

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branch I cut down and it was not
like solid like. 

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The rope was nylon, so it 
stretched. 

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I got like a few shots and then 
I have to tighten it up again, 

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made some arrows and cast. 
Arrowheads with sauder cause it 

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was softer. 
My dad did the torch part. 

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Yeah, I was too young at the 
time. 

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Yeah, but ended up using it in 
like a class project. 

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We had to make a video. 
This was like early days of VHS 

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and shoot lead head. 
Three LED head, 3000. 

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LED head, 2000. 
We what we called it cause it 

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was like lead solder back in the
day. 

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We weren't allowed to like 
handle it because it was lead 

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and we knew. 
It was not going to be healthy 

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that was allowed to use that bow
and arrow until got it stuck in 

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a neighbor's roof. 
But we had, I mean, we were 

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doing stupid stuff, me and my 
friends. 

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That's OK. 
I mean, that's that's part of 

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being exploratory. 
Is it as a kid, right? 

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Yeah. 
What are the boundaries? 

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Yeah. 
And, and, and how did it, how 

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was your teacher receptive to 
you being a TA when it came time

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to conclude that role? 
What was was he thankful for? 

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Did the students appreciate it? 
Were they receptive to you as a 

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as a yeah, as a peer, but also 
as their teacher? 

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Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of 
them knew. 

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Already that I was decent at 
drawing and art and that helped,

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but certainly there was 
definitely a few Snickers at the

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beginning and, and the teacher 
was definitely unsure of the 

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situation. 
And you know, I after teaching a

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few classes that way and getting
everybody to, you know, do some 

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projects and whatnot, the 
teacher still had to do his 

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thing, meet the curriculum 
requirements and whatnot. 

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But at least everybody was on a 
page that was better and I was 

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happy with that. 
That's fine. 

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But yeah, it was, it was a, it 
was, it was definitely one of 

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those, one of those experiences 
that was. 

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Good. 
OK. 

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And how did you determine what 
you wanted to study? 

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You and you were leaving high. 
School. 

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Good question. 
I I really wanted to do. 

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Art in some degree I had in high
school gotten into like the 

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digital media arts. 
The school had student body that

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was really good at fundraising 
and they managed to raise money 

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to get like a blue screen 
installed and a like media room 

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in the school. 
And at the same time they got a 

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computer that could. 
Run. 

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I think it was Lightwave. 
Which was like an earlier 3D 

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modeling and animation software.
And then I discovered that being

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artsy fartsy. 
It's like, oh, that's. 

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Perfect. 
And so I, I wanted to do that 

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and ended up in the Digital 
Media Arts program at Seneca 

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York. 
Yeah, I ended up ended up in 

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that program is 2 year program, 
diploma program. 

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And I enjoyed it. 
I felt like I was in, you know, 

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upper, upper ranks of my class. 
I wouldn't say it was the best 

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at it. 
There was definitely other 

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people who were better and I was
fine with that. 

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Great, great, good skill. 
Set grades don't necessarily 

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correlate to to earnings. 
Well, like, exactly. 

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And and it's but it's also one 
of those things where it was 

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like everybody had things that 
they were interested in. 

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Yes, like you across the class, 
there's some people who were 

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there as like a prelude to going
into video editing and and 

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special effects. 
That's what they really wanted 

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to do. 
They didn't care about the 

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modeling and what that's just 
give me special effects. 

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I want to blow stuff up. 
But yeah, coming out of school 

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is, I wanna say 2000 and. 12000 
yeah 2002 thousand. 1 for for 

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that it the industry had just 
slowed down. 

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There was an over abundance of 
people who could do animation 

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and whatnot. 
People were getting laid off 

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from Pixar and Disney. 
And so getting hired somewhere 

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where you were fresh and they 
affirm that was hiring was 

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basically picking people up at 
pennies on the dollar. 

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The competition was extremely 
stiff. 

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And so I think like one or two 
people actually in my class from

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what I recall, actually ended up
in animation directly after 

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that. 
And most of them ended up going 

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back to school for other things 
or moving into sort of different

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sort of side related fields. 
And so for me, after knocking on

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doors and getting some 
interviews and going nowhere, I 

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was like, OK, well I'm gonna 
work summers. 

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My dad had been doing fountain 
stuff for years and I've been 

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helping him since I was a kid in
the summer when I was a summer 

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holidays doing mockups. 
And by mockup, I mean we would 

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build full scale sections of a 
fountain that was going to go in

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as a test to prove out the fluid
mechanics and water performance 

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and character of the display so 
that it could get approved for 

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construction. 
And this you can't really scale 

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water. 
So you would always have to do 

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it at full scale and then 
simulate it with wood and foam 

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and stuff. 
So I was painting mockups and I 

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would be inside. 
Of the mock up pushing. 

228
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,630
Stairs or something like that to
change the. 

229
00:13:50,370 --> 00:13:54,700
Like the the depth of the tread 
versus the riser and you know. 

230
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:57,980
Like absolutely soaked while my 
dad's having a meeting out 

231
00:13:57,990 --> 00:14:01,920
front, talking with client who'd
flown in from wherever to see 

232
00:14:01,930 --> 00:14:04,480
it. 
And so I I've been doing that 

233
00:14:04,490 --> 00:14:09,680
for years and so. 
I basically worked with him 

234
00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:19,010
again for a summer and by this 
point I'm 1920 and I've done the

235
00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:23,950
computer animation stuff and 
that's gone, got me nowhere at 

236
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,970
this point in terms of a job. 
And so I was like, OK, well. 

237
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,350
You know, I really enjoy this. 
And I really enjoy nature, and 

238
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,060
my dad's a landscape architect. 
Maybe I'll go do that. 

239
00:14:35,830 --> 00:14:42,320
And so I applied to Guelph 
University of Guelph's landscape

240
00:14:42,330 --> 00:14:49,020
architecture bachelor program. 
Yep, got in Um, ended up doing 

241
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:51,690
the five year program with with 
a break in between. 

242
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,540
There was a year where I just I 
needed a break. 

243
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:58,020
So where did you do? 
I bummed around Europe. 

244
00:14:58,060 --> 00:15:01,140
Worked for my dad. 
And you can't just say bummed 

245
00:15:01,150 --> 00:15:03,310
around Europe then go to work 
for your dad. 

246
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,250
Yeah, let's talk about Europe. 
OK. 

247
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,910
Yeah, sure. 
So. 

248
00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:11,290
I mean, coming out of, yeah, 
coming out of my fourth year, I 

249
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,210
was just, I was in need of a 
break. 

250
00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:14,950
I was burnt. 
Out. 

251
00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:16,910
Yeah. 
You've been in like at Seneca, 

252
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,430
Seneca York for how many years? 
Well, Seneca York was two years 

253
00:15:20,510 --> 00:15:22,410
and then three years. 
Then. 

254
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,930
They did four years. 
You were seven years of 

255
00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:26,170
postsecondary. 
Yeah. 

256
00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:30,620
Follow this is following OC. 
Didn't do a. 

257
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:35,840
Grade 12 and then I skipped. 
Did you go directly into 

258
00:15:35,850 --> 00:15:37,240
university or? 
Did you take your off? 

259
00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:42,500
I went directly from grade 12 
into Diploma program Seneca. 

260
00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:43,080
Yeah. 
OK. 

261
00:15:43,090 --> 00:15:46,180
So same applies. 
Yeah, You hadn't stopped school 

262
00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:47,660
in many years. 
Yeah, yes. 

263
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:52,720
So for me, it was really just 
necessary to to do that for my 

264
00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:55,480
own mental sanity. 
I think it was just not in a 

265
00:15:55,490 --> 00:16:02,870
good spot to continue. 
So I had some savings and 

266
00:16:02,970 --> 00:16:06,540
basically bought an open-ended 
ticket flying into Charles to 

267
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:12,000
go, um, and. 
Did you have a destination or 

268
00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:14,440
anything that you had on a list 
of things you wanted to do? 

269
00:16:14,490 --> 00:16:18,310
I kind of. 
Had this notion in my head that 

270
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:24,380
I wanted to see cities and how 
people lived more than really 

271
00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:26,780
exploring the countryside than 
anything else. 

272
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:29,610
I think I was. 
I was at that time in my life, 

273
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:32,220
you know, very fascinated by how
people use space. 

274
00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:37,250
And how people interact with 
each other and just kind of I, 

275
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:41,030
my only context was here in 
Toronto, right? 

276
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,890
And, and really most of my life 
in the suburbs of Toronto, which

277
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:49,430
is, you know, it's a, a car. 
Haven, but that's about it. 

278
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,730
There's not a whole lot. 
Of, you know, natural public 

279
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:57,250
interaction outside of like, you
know, going to the grocery 

280
00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:59,920
store. 
Yeah. 

281
00:16:59,930 --> 00:17:05,760
So anyway, I, I, I basically 
kind of went with that mindset. 

282
00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:08,770
I didn't really have too much of
A plan. 

283
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,470
Um, I did not very bring very 
much with. 

284
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,710
Me. 
Where did you? 

285
00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:19,190
What were some of the key? 
Items I had like, yeah, couple 

286
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:25,040
pairs of briefs, a couple pairs 
of pants, a pair of shorts, some

287
00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:32,930
shirts and a hat, OK. 
And for I bought a jacket when I

288
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:37,110
was there because it was 
September when I left and I got 

289
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,830
back in sometime early, earlier 
mid-december when I ran out of 

290
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,810
money, OK. 
But I I basically can't, I lived

291
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,170
out of I don't know if you 
remember Molson Canadian used to

292
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:54,490
have those cooler bags. 
You get a 24 of beer cans in a 

293
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,850
zipper bag with Canadian Molson 
Canadian. 

294
00:17:57,860 --> 00:18:00,870
That that's all I brought with 
me to Europe. 

295
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,070
So I had very little to carry, 
which was great because 

296
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,110
everything was carry on. 
I never had to pay for luggage. 

297
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,190
And you know, I could just oh, 
you, you want to go hop on a 

298
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,110
bus? 
I just go do the thing. 

299
00:18:14,550 --> 00:18:17,200
So started in Paris. 
Two weeks there. 

300
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,650
Then found a cheap flight to 
Dublin from Ryanair. 

301
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,230
At the time if you booked more 
than two weeks in advance you 

302
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,440
could get it for like a euro 
plus taxes. 

303
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:37,560
So that's what I did. 
And I so I went to the Dublin, 

304
00:18:37,570 --> 00:18:41,700
bummed around Dublin for a week.
And when I, when I say bummed 

305
00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:46,230
around, it's more like I, I 
would wander around the city, 

306
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:52,030
explore the city, see how things
are kind of laid out. 

307
00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:54,180
Just I would be walking almost. 
Everywhere. 

308
00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:57,790
I think I wore out the pair of 
shoes by the time I was done. 

309
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:04,810
Um, but you know, like sit on a 
cafe corner, just watch people 

310
00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:11,270
go by or like, I'm gonna jump 
ahead a little bit, but like, at

311
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,090
one point I, I was in Milan for 
a week and staying with. 

312
00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:18,590
My little brothers friend 
because my little brother had 

313
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,460
moved to the Netherlands and was
going to school there. 

314
00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:26,960
And he was like, oh, you should 
just stay with with these 

315
00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:29,480
people. 
And I'm like, OK, so they had a 

316
00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:32,580
little flat and I basically used
it as a. 

317
00:19:32,670 --> 00:19:36,240
Home camp but I would just 
wander around the city all day 

318
00:19:36,430 --> 00:19:40,240
and I remember sitting on the 
steps of the cathedral in Milan 

319
00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:42,980
city square and. 
Just watch people. 

320
00:19:43,030 --> 00:19:49,180
And watching, you know, the this
sort of performative nature of 

321
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:53,840
the city at being this very like
design forward city people, you 

322
00:19:53,850 --> 00:19:55,460
know. 
Walking around, showing off 

323
00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:58,210
their new boyfriend, the new 
girlfriend, their new bag, their

324
00:19:58,220 --> 00:20:00,950
new clothes, they like, the new 
car, whatever. 

325
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,250
They're just like hanging out. 
We don't have that. 

326
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,530
Or at the time, it didn't feel 
like we had that kind of thing 

327
00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:14,180
happening here. 
The spaces for it, yeah. 

328
00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:16,620
I don't know if it's whether 
they're too new or the culture 

329
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:20,920
is just different or what, but 
it was, it was fascinating to to

330
00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:22,520
see. 
And so that that kind of 

331
00:20:22,530 --> 00:20:25,940
experience and really 
interacting that way. 

332
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:30,080
And it's more of an odd passive 
observation. 

333
00:20:30,430 --> 00:20:33,600
I would spend evenings 
oftentimes out of hostels. 

334
00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:36,780
And so you get get to know the 
hostel folks, but they're all 

335
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:41,320
travelers too, right? 
So it's it's a different group 

336
00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:44,480
than the group who actually live
in the place. 

337
00:20:44,590 --> 00:20:48,300
So, you know, being apart from 
them for most of the day and 

338
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:52,030
just, you know, being able to 
reserve and hang out and see the

339
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,400
architecture. 
And see the like how people use 

340
00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:58,290
their parks and how they're 
moving around their. 

341
00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:00,250
City and you know, what are they
doing? 

342
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:02,250
Are they, are they having a 
coffee? 

343
00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:06,380
Are they, you know, early 
afternoon people are just having

344
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:09,020
a siesta like, you know, just 
fantastic. 

345
00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:11,960
So. 
Yeah, being being immersed in 

346
00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:14,040
the culture. 
Yeah, being immersed, I mean 

347
00:21:14,050 --> 00:21:17,920
like in insofar as. 
Yeah, a week or two in a place 

348
00:21:17,930 --> 00:21:19,620
can afford you, of course. 
Right. 

349
00:21:19,630 --> 00:21:23,360
It's it's always a taste. 
It's it's much more much 

350
00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:26,340
different. 
So I'm sure my glasses were 

351
00:21:26,350 --> 00:21:30,940
quite rosy at that point. 
But yeah, I mean, it was, it was

352
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:33,620
a very good. 
Trip for me informative and kind

353
00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:36,290
of. 
I would say. 

354
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:42,050
My first time really on my own 
entirely, you know, free of any 

355
00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:46,230
obligation or expectation other 
than, you know. 

356
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,190
Don't run out of money before 
you get home, right? 

357
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:57,000
Which I which I did my my last. 
Train ride before going or as a 

358
00:21:57,010 --> 00:22:00,480
bus. 
I had to get from Alicante in 

359
00:22:00,490 --> 00:22:07,400
Spain back to Paris to get to 
Charles de Gaulle and I had 

360
00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:09,340
like. 
No money to my name. 

361
00:22:09,390 --> 00:22:16,580
I had at some point lost my visa
and so I was on a temporary, you

362
00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:18,740
know. 
Traveler like emergency backup, 

363
00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:23,270
replacement card and it all like
basically almost no no. 

364
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,030
Cash left in the bank and 
sitting there. 

365
00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:31,430
And two, two American girls, the
goodness of their heart saw me 

366
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,570
panicking at the bus station and
I'm like, here, we'll get your 

367
00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:38,090
bus ticket. 
It was like €10 but I couldn't 

368
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,010
even afford to pay the €10 to 
get on the bus. 

369
00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:45,800
But then yeah, just, you know, 
it's open-ended ticket. 

370
00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:47,940
So you basically. 
Get to the airport and 

371
00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:51,000
thankfully I did and and you, 
just you. 

372
00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:53,700
Wait for your Wait for the first
available flight with a seat. 

373
00:22:53,710 --> 00:22:57,160
And head home. 
So couple of questions. 

374
00:22:57,350 --> 00:23:02,460
Were there any structures or 
landscapes that stood out in 

375
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:07,640
your mind as being particularly 
meaningful, that kind of really 

376
00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:12,770
represented what you felt tied 
to your aesthetic and interest? 

377
00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:17,890
Yeah, that's a good question. 
So I would say, you know, 

378
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,830
there's a couple, couple of 
places that really spoke to me. 

379
00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:28,440
One was just Dublin for, you 
know, some people say, oh, it's 

380
00:23:28,450 --> 00:23:31,460
Gray City and there's a lot of 
stone and, and that's true. 

381
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:39,350
But the scale of the space and 
the scale of the public space 

382
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,470
and the way that it at the time 
had, and it's been years since 

383
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:50,890
I've been back, had integrated 
like LRT transit and this sort 

384
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:57,670
of interconnectedness like parks
stretching at like anchoring 

385
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,640
ends of the city or parts of the
city. 

386
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:07,330
And some of the the historic 
buildings not having, you know, 

387
00:24:07,340 --> 00:24:11,880
trying to do what we've done 
here where it's like you take 

388
00:24:11,890 --> 00:24:14,570
the facade of the original 
building and you build on top of

389
00:24:14,580 --> 00:24:17,250
it or build out from it. 
So you kind of have the look of.

390
00:24:17,260 --> 00:24:22,350
It and but like to be able to go
into the building and it 

391
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,150
literally. 
Has not changed. 

392
00:24:25,540 --> 00:24:28,010
I'm going to, I'm going to 
reference a bar, but there's a 

393
00:24:28,020 --> 00:24:33,020
there's a bar there that is what
10/10/68 AD It's been in 

394
00:24:33,030 --> 00:24:38,020
operation as a bar slash barrel 
house and it's still the low 

395
00:24:38,030 --> 00:24:40,600
ceilings, like you gotta duck to
get in the front door. 

396
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:44,900
Yeah. 
But there's there's a feeling 

397
00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:46,560
about the place that I really 
liked. 

398
00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:47,820
So that was that was one of 
them. 

399
00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:55,270
The second I would say um. 
Was Paris and. 

400
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,730
You know, it's, there is a 
certain, I, I want to say 

401
00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:05,020
there's like there's a formality
to how they arrange their parks 

402
00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:06,760
and things and, and the 
buildings. 

403
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:08,850
And obviously it was very 
intentional, right? 

404
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:10,280
Like. 
Paris went through this whole 

405
00:25:10,290 --> 00:25:14,420
phase of being intentionally 
designed, like destroying parts 

406
00:25:14,430 --> 00:25:17,380
of the city to create this 
master vision, right? 

407
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,190
But you know, when you look at 
the parks, I don't mean like 

408
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,230
the, the big ones. 
The big ones are very 

409
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,820
controlled, very like 
symmetrical. 

410
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:30,560
There's a lot of pattern and, 
and, and there, don't get me 

411
00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:34,330
wrong, they're beautiful. 
But the, the little pocket parks

412
00:25:34,340 --> 00:25:37,660
that you would find on some of 
the side streets where it's, you

413
00:25:37,670 --> 00:25:42,520
know, a handful of trees and 
just a nice sitting area and 

414
00:25:42,530 --> 00:25:48,320
dappled light tucked between 
some 3 or 4 story stone houses. 

415
00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:51,220
And there's just like a little 
kid kicking a ball around, 

416
00:25:51,230 --> 00:25:53,200
right? 
Like and there might be some 

417
00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:57,920
iron gates or something set up 
just to kind of enclose the 

418
00:25:57,930 --> 00:26:03,290
space, but it's still speaking 
to the street that really caught

419
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:07,310
my eye and and coming back, I 
still have a real love for the 

420
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,830
kind of vest pocket parks that 
you see around places like New 

421
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,040
York and and some of the other 
cities. 

422
00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:17,340
What were there any particular 
experiences that you had, 

423
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:23,550
whether it was like a street 
performer or a concert that you 

424
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,510
went to or a meal that you had, 
an unexpected place where there 

425
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,020
was an alley or a restaurant 
that stood out to you? 

426
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:34,730
From that experience I know that
these are relatively like point 

427
00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:35,750
Blank. 
Yeah, yeah. 

428
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:41,040
I mean, that's a long. 
Long way back I Hmm. 

429
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,200
Um. 
I'm not, I'm not sure you'll 

430
00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:47,540
have to. 
Yeah, I, I, I would say it's 

431
00:26:47,550 --> 00:26:52,060
more the experience of place, 
right, like just. 

432
00:26:52,880 --> 00:27:01,750
The almost the solitude of being
alone in a in a busy place like.

433
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:06,500
At the time in my life, I think 
there were there was times like 

434
00:27:06,510 --> 00:27:09,620
sitting on the edge of a canal 
and hearing somebody playing 

435
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:12,380
some music under a bridge far 
farther down. 

436
00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:18,100
And you know, it's just, it's 
just you and a loaf of bread and

437
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:23,300
a bottle of wine and, you know, 
some, some lights reflecting off

438
00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:27,230
the water. 
It was that that kind of 

439
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,660
experience, I think I, I would 
say it was most, most memorable.

440
00:27:30,670 --> 00:27:35,710
So even what about walking into 
that participating, getting, oh.

441
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,870
Yeah, loaf of bread. 
I mean, yeah, yeah, fresh. 

442
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,050
Just you can't, you can't beat 
that, that cheese and bread. 

443
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:47,760
And yeah, you don't even have to
like think about it too much. 

444
00:27:47,770 --> 00:27:51,220
It's it's just this overwhelming
sense of Yum. 

445
00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,110
OK, so you returned from this 
experience? 

446
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,100
Yeah, refreshed. 
Yeah, yeah. 

447
00:27:59,140 --> 00:28:01,110
Engaged. 
You still have time. 

448
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,210
You get back in December. 
You still have time before next 

449
00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:04,410
school year. 
Yeah. 

450
00:28:04,420 --> 00:28:05,120
So what? 
So what? 

451
00:28:05,130 --> 00:28:08,470
What it look like as you move 
forward from getting home, 

452
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:09,990
Celebrate New Years, all the 
rest of it. 

453
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,790
Yeah, I mean that I think was 
still a bit of a blur. 

454
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,350
I was still trying to just 
figure things. 

455
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:21,830
Out. 
And it wasn't really till I 

456
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,450
think the following summer that 
I went back. 

457
00:28:24,510 --> 00:28:27,370
So I didn't go back to. 
Immediately for like the spring 

458
00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:31,760
semester. 
And so, yeah, it took me a 

459
00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:34,840
while, OK. 
I wasn't, I wasn't sure what I 

460
00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:37,360
wanted to do. 
I think it, it's in general in 

461
00:28:37,370 --> 00:28:40,650
my life, I've had a lot of 
interests in a lot of different 

462
00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:46,600
things between, you know, art 
and technology and, you know, 

463
00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:51,870
just design in general, but just
being creative and, you know, 

464
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,050
one of the things I didn't say 
earlier, but like before I. 

465
00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:58,470
Really came passionate about 
doing the animation stuff, what 

466
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,130
I wanted to be. 
Was a park Ranger. 

467
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,270
The Ministry of Natural 
Resources actually did the 

468
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,970
junior Ranger program when I was
17. 

469
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:08,690
I was one of the last years to 
do that. 

470
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,790
And I mean that that was an 
amazing experience and got 

471
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,570
recommended for rehire into the 
M&R and then it was like, OK. 

472
00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:21,050
Well, the animation and I 
decided on the animation to do 

473
00:29:21,060 --> 00:29:23,950
that because it really spoke to 
me at the time, right? 

474
00:29:24,410 --> 00:29:27,050
But I, I think I'd always been 
so torn between different 

475
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:29,300
things. 
It was hard to, hard to know 

476
00:29:29,310 --> 00:29:34,420
what to do with my life. 
Um, but eventually I did feel 

477
00:29:34,430 --> 00:29:38,340
like I was ready and this was 
something I not just should, but

478
00:29:38,350 --> 00:29:41,180
wanted to finish. 
And so I went back. 

479
00:29:42,270 --> 00:29:44,500
With the different I graduated 
with, obviously the different 

480
00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:47,920
class than I started, but great 
group of people. 

481
00:29:48,750 --> 00:29:53,080
Still, and, and I mean my 
original class, I still stay in 

482
00:29:53,090 --> 00:29:56,500
touch with. 
We get together a couple times a

483
00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:58,100
year. 
There's some people here in the 

484
00:29:58,150 --> 00:30:06,010
GTA, there's people in BC. 
But we we have our annual 

485
00:30:06,020 --> 00:30:10,290
holiday ornament exchange. 
We all kind of design and make 

486
00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:12,370
ornaments for each other. 
If you want to be, if you. 

487
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:15,210
Want to participate? 
It's not a you don't have to. 

488
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,570
And then we'll get together and 
do like a potluck kind of thing 

489
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:21,240
around the holidays. 
Um. 

490
00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:25,160
But yeah, I mean coming out of 
that and. 

491
00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:28,360
And really being able to focus, 
I think again, on the landscape 

492
00:30:28,370 --> 00:30:33,160
architecture kind of put me in a
good, good. 

493
00:30:33,170 --> 00:30:37,180
Place mentally, I think. 
OK, so you, so you, you, you 

494
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:38,620
have finishing school? 
Yeah. 

495
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:40,380
And what does it look like now 
professionally? 

496
00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:44,560
What do you do? 
So I came out of school and 

497
00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:53,080
started looking for work and I 
had heard through through my dad

498
00:30:53,150 --> 00:30:56,740
that Janet Rosenberg and 
associates now Janet Rosenberg 

499
00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:58,980
in studio. 
Yeah, was looking for somebody 

500
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,490
and I put in an application. 
Ended up with an interview. 

501
00:31:05,270 --> 00:31:08,040
Now it's probably. 
A little more confident than I 

502
00:31:08,050 --> 00:31:12,280
needed to be or or should have 
been in any right cause I'm 

503
00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:15,860
still very fresh. 
But I, I felt like I could do 

504
00:31:15,870 --> 00:31:21,480
this and I got, I got the. 
Job and I worked there for a 

505
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:26,280
couple years and you know, it 
really pushed, pushed me 

506
00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:30,940
definitely. 
You know, I was renting a place,

507
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:35,760
you know, block and a half away 
from their office over on 

508
00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:42,620
Kenwood. 
So that's Toronto, St. 

509
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:46,160
Clair West area. 
Yeah, just, you know, just north

510
00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:49,780
of Saint Clair, West of Bay, 
West of Bathurst. 

511
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,930
Anyway, I I was renting there. 
And it was going well. 

512
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:56,260
But I was. 
I was. 

513
00:31:56,270 --> 00:32:02,370
Definitely putting in a lot of 
time and, and, and at the same 

514
00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:06,370
time working on passion projects
on the side. 

515
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:12,150
I was working with an artist who
designs furniture and does fine 

516
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,560
art, and he was a high school 
art teacher, and so we did a 

517
00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:19,610
bunch of collaboration at that 
time. 

518
00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:25,320
We designed a piece of furniture
called Zitten that ended up in 

519
00:32:25,410 --> 00:32:29,710
Azure magazine. 
Um, and we took it to the 

520
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,110
interior design show in Toronto 
as well and sold that and it 

521
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,570
basically was plywood. 
Like. 

522
00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:46,550
Half inch ply with a like a. 
It's basically like a side table

523
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,240
bench, so long longer. 
Like I don't. 

524
00:32:49,250 --> 00:32:51,500
Want to say like 6 or 7 feet 
long? 

525
00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:56,080
Yeah. 
And but depth of a chair and in 

526
00:32:56,090 --> 00:32:58,790
the IT was sculpted the an 
actual seat. 

527
00:32:58,830 --> 00:33:04,360
So by cutting the plywood into 
these sort of like a 2 inch 

528
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:08,280
band, so it's 2 inch from the 
floor square and then it dipped 

529
00:33:08,290 --> 00:33:11,120
for the seat and it basically 
molded to your body. 

530
00:33:11,130 --> 00:33:12,700
So when? 
How did it mold? 

531
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:18,740
So by doing half inch slices we 
basically built like almost like

532
00:33:18,750 --> 00:33:25,130
a topographic map if you will. 
But turned upright and so take 

533
00:33:25,140 --> 00:33:28,770
that form and obviously it's 
half inch stack, so it's rough 

534
00:33:28,780 --> 00:33:32,400
edges, um, a ton of sanding 
later. 

535
00:33:33,870 --> 00:33:37,340
Basically a smooth form. 
And then finished it and and 

536
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:41,390
whatnot. 
But you know, I went through, so

537
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,570
we started the design process as
a collaborative thing. 

538
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:53,580
I used my 3D modeling skills to 
model it out and then to execute

539
00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:57,240
it at that point. 
I'm, I'm like, OK, well, we need

540
00:33:57,250 --> 00:33:59,180
to be able to do this, so we 
gotta figure out. 

541
00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:02,560
How we're going to do it. 
So CNC's made sense at the time.

542
00:34:02,570 --> 00:34:05,220
It was kind of an. 
Up and coming technology we had 

543
00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:09,989
a connection for U of T's 
architecture program somebody we

544
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,400
knew had access to their CNC 
table that could do a 4 by 8 

545
00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:22,790
sheet of plywood and so we 
started the process of going OK 

546
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,070
well I'm gonna lay this out so I
I drafted it up in. 

547
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,210
CAD drafted up all the profiles 
assembled in three dimensions in

548
00:34:31,219 --> 00:34:40,000
AutoCAD, basically the process 
like the assembly and then 

549
00:34:40,210 --> 00:34:42,260
figured out OK. 
Well, we need to be able to. 

550
00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:44,300
Align these pieces. 
How do you keep it together 

551
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:46,679
while you're clamping and gluing
and everything else? 

552
00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:52,380
So we ended up with dowels at 
all the corners pinned through, 

553
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:55,400
so continuous except for the 
outer layer on front and back. 

554
00:34:56,850 --> 00:35:02,440
And then just glue stack and 
work as quick as you can. 

555
00:35:02,450 --> 00:35:05,000
And then clamp it all down when 
you're done. 

556
00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:07,520
So it's quite an involved. 
Process. 

557
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:09,480
But it was, it was a heck of a 
lot of fun. 

558
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,810
So that's that's happening at 
the same time as doing the 

559
00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:16,970
landscape architecture. 
Stuff with Janet's office. 

560
00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:23,540
And then I at some point, I 
think I was kind of ready for a 

561
00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:27,250
change. 
And this I think was like 

562
00:35:27,370 --> 00:35:32,890
September or October 2009. 
My dad called me. 

563
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,860
Up. 
He's like, I'm super busy. 

564
00:35:37,210 --> 00:35:45,060
I know you not been, you know, 
um, as interested in joining the

565
00:35:45,070 --> 00:35:46,960
firm because that always said I 
don't, I don't want to do 

566
00:35:46,970 --> 00:35:48,740
fountain design. 
I want to do landscape 

567
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:52,780
architecture. 
I, I liked what he did, don't 

568
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:56,370
get me wrong, and I could see 
his passion for it, but I at the

569
00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:58,810
time, I couldn't see myself 
being as passionate. 

570
00:35:59,710 --> 00:36:02,990
And that had held me back for a 
long time. 

571
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,300
But when he called me up in 2009
and he said, Hey, I'm really 

572
00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:09,540
busy. 
You know, if you're, if you need

573
00:36:09,550 --> 00:36:13,050
a change and you're talking 
about it, come, come work with 

574
00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:13,840
me. 
I am this. 

575
00:36:13,850 --> 00:36:16,070
Is this post recession? 
This is post recession. 

576
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,360
Yeah, he's busy. 
He's coming out of recession. 

577
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,540
Everyone else A-frame of mind of
like, yeah, this means to be 

578
00:36:23,550 --> 00:36:26,120
specialized. 
Yeah, and he was, he was always 

579
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:30,530
pretty busy, and this just was a
whole other level of busy. 

580
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:38,060
Um, and so I said yeah. 
And gave my notice at Janet's 

581
00:36:38,070 --> 00:36:41,500
office and basically I've been 
working full time in the 

582
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:46,750
fountain business since then. 
Um, it's, uh, it's certainly 

583
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,030
been an adventure. 
Not without. 

584
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,650
Its challenges. 
It was definitely a big learning

585
00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:56,130
curve still, like for all the 
stuff and experience that I'd 

586
00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:58,450
had in doing the mockups and 
seeing. 

587
00:36:58,460 --> 00:37:03,400
Him work from being a kid all 
the way into my adulthood. 

588
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,500
And you know, there was probably
still five year learning curve 

589
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:13,620
to really, really get it right. 
Like it's, it's a combination of

590
00:37:13,630 --> 00:37:20,350
not just understanding how water
moves, the fluid dynamics of it 

591
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,690
and how it sounds. 
And you know, the, the 

592
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:27,100
performative aesthetic that 
people see when they're walking 

593
00:37:27,110 --> 00:37:29,930
down the street. 
It's, you know, it's the 

594
00:37:29,940 --> 00:37:32,690
mechanics behind it. 
And well, how does that relate 

595
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:35,690
to how you build your structure?
And how does that relate to all 

596
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:38,810
the details? 
And how does that relate to your

597
00:37:38,820 --> 00:37:42,670
building infrastructure? 
And you know, how do you make 

598
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,710
all these? 
Different parts work. 

599
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,710
Well, together so it took me a 
long time. 

600
00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:51,310
I mean, you just do the basic 
math on this. 

601
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,120
If you were working again, this 
is going to be rough, but five 

602
00:37:55,130 --> 00:38:00,440
years at called 40 hours a week 
and 50 weeks a year, 2005 years,

603
00:38:00,450 --> 00:38:02,250
10,000 hours, there's 10,000 
hours. 

604
00:38:02,260 --> 00:38:06,060
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, basically 
that's that's yeah, good point. 

605
00:38:06,110 --> 00:38:09,120
It's. 
It's I guess the saying is true.

606
00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:12,740
Shoot, never really thought 
about it that way. 

607
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,590
Yeah. 
There you become, you know, an 

608
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,470
expert in your field in some 
capacity, right? 

609
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,560
Yeah. 
And you take everything you've 

610
00:38:20,570 --> 00:38:23,650
learned prior to that and you 
compound it. 

611
00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:26,060
And now you know what you're 
doing really well. 

612
00:38:26,130 --> 00:38:31,200
Yeah. 
So tell me about what you what, 

613
00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:34,070
what did you start out doing 
when you were working for him in

614
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,040
those first couple of years? 
Sure. 

615
00:38:36,050 --> 00:38:38,140
Were you drawing? 
Were you still doing modeling? 

616
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:40,920
Like what did it look like? 
Yeah, I think for the most part 

617
00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:46,310
it was CAD and it was basically 
draftsman. 

618
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:49,770
Yep. 
At that point, you know, he 

619
00:38:49,780 --> 00:38:54,340
would redline things. 
I would do the the work on on 

620
00:38:54,350 --> 00:38:56,790
that and kind of just take the 
load as much as I could. 

621
00:38:56,940 --> 00:39:03,740
And as I went, I started also 
kind of, it wouldn't just be at 

622
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:06,450
some point it was, it's 
transitioned a bit from drafting

623
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:11,250
to also like looking at, OK, 
what is the specification and 

624
00:39:11,260 --> 00:39:15,170
what did we actually need? 
Starting to look at calculations

625
00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:20,400
for flow rates over weirs and 
jets and all that stuff and kind

626
00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:23,930
of just thrown into all of it. 
And my dad would correct me when

627
00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:26,000
I was wrong and we would have 
discussions about things. 

628
00:39:26,010 --> 00:39:28,770
He was always. 
And this is something I've 

629
00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:31,850
always really appreciated. 
He was always willing to just be

630
00:39:31,860 --> 00:39:35,610
like, hey, This is why I'm 
thinking about this. 

631
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:39,590
Or, you know, we should be, we 
should talk about this part of 

632
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,070
it because it's, you know, it's 
something I remember this 

633
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,190
project. 
We'd seen this thing and, you 

634
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,130
know, this one time this was the
result. 

635
00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:51,600
And so now we've gotta, you 
know, think about that in the 

636
00:39:51,610 --> 00:39:55,090
context of this project and how 
does that play in here? 

637
00:39:55,100 --> 00:40:03,630
So whether it's. 
For example, a cascade, 

638
00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:06,700
basically a set of stairs with 
water flowing down it. 

639
00:40:08,190 --> 00:40:13,400
When you do that kind of thing, 
you're when it's straight and 

640
00:40:13,410 --> 00:40:16,320
straight set of stairs up and 
down, the stairs aren't turning 

641
00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:18,900
to the left or whatever. 
It's very straightforward. 

642
00:40:18,990 --> 00:40:22,320
It's water starts at the top, 
water goes to the bottom, 

643
00:40:24,010 --> 00:40:28,740
driving it with all the work. 
And if you're at that point, 

644
00:40:28,750 --> 00:40:31,040
there's sort of only two things 
that really matter. 

645
00:40:31,110 --> 00:40:35,580
One is is there like. 
A pool behind each step where 

646
00:40:35,590 --> 00:40:39,420
that water can sort of still 
itself and become calm again 

647
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:41,320
between each step and. 
So you get. 

648
00:40:41,330 --> 00:40:43,980
Glassy effect all the way down 
and reflective? 

649
00:40:44,090 --> 00:40:49,400
Or is it a step where there's 
no, no containment and now it's 

650
00:40:49,410 --> 00:40:54,530
this roiling, frothy aerated 
mass that really picks up, you 

651
00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:59,460
know, this crate active texture 
like you would see in Rapids. 

652
00:41:00,220 --> 00:41:06,330
And so you start from there, but
then you're, you know, there's 

653
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,730
things that you don't, you 
don't, you know, you don't know 

654
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,530
if it's going to be an issue and
you end up having to test. 

655
00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:14,730
Right. 
And so this is where the mockup 

656
00:41:14,740 --> 00:41:18,810
stuff comes in. 
And, and so like at one point, 

657
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:24,780
and I think this was University 
of Cincinnati, um, there was a 

658
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:32,080
cascade and the cascade needed 
to actually come in or in plan, 

659
00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:35,360
the top step and bottom step 
were very much out of alignment.

660
00:41:35,370 --> 00:41:38,950
So it's like a 45° angle coming 
down the stairs, but the water 

661
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,610
wants to take the easiest course
it can. 

662
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,030
So those first steps, it just 
keeps piling up. 

663
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,710
And so you have this. 
Huge mass of water on the one 

664
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,610
side where it's been piling up 
all the way down and the other 

665
00:41:51,620 --> 00:41:53,490
side is basically. 
Dry. 

666
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:56,450
So how do you how do you deal 
with that? 

667
00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:58,840
You gotta you gotta back slope 
them. 

668
00:41:58,850 --> 00:42:01,040
Yeah. 
So you're creating this pool 

669
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:06,230
just enough, just enough depth 
to yeah, to to cast that water 

670
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:08,610
to the side before it falls over
the next one. 

671
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:13,110
And you can still get the 
aeration across everything 

672
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,990
without it stilling. 
If you find that sweet spot 

673
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,790
between how far down you go and 
how far over you have to go. 

674
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:26,470
And and I remember building that
mock up. 

675
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,070
You were so happy. 
With the, yeah, I mean, it was, 

676
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,170
it was cold. 
I think this was like probably 

677
00:42:34,180 --> 00:42:36,110
a. 
December kind of mock up. 

678
00:42:36,180 --> 00:42:39,190
So it hadn't quite gotten 
absolutely frozen yet. 

679
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:43,390
And it was in the garage and, 
um. 

680
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,300
We have this like fiberglass 
pool and built like I think it 

681
00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:51,430
was an 8 foot long section and 
with like a wooden box at the 

682
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,830
back and you're, you know, thing
you do your best to keep it from

683
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,190
sealing. 
You're basically making out 

684
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,630
plywood and two by fours and two
by sixes and paint it to look 

685
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,310
like granite. 
So I mean, that was the the the 

686
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,970
artsy part of it I got to. 
Make fake stone out of wood. 

687
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,190
But the, but the understanding 
the fluid mechanics of it and 

688
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,710
taking that, that that sort of 
thing like I guess, yeah, that's

689
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:17,830
sort of where I'm I'm going. 
With it in terms of. 

690
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,400
Just that there's there's so 
much to understand and 

691
00:43:21,410 --> 00:43:24,290
technically, technically and 
then figuring it out and then 

692
00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:29,170
working back. 
From those solutions to get to 

693
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:36,080
OK, well, if, if this, then that
and by if this it's the if this 

694
00:43:36,090 --> 00:43:40,440
aesthetic, then this mechanics. 
And so then you have to OK. 

695
00:43:41,210 --> 00:43:43,020
Figure out, OK, well, how much 
space do we need? 

696
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:44,780
What kind of infrastructure do 
we need? 

697
00:43:44,890 --> 00:43:49,640
And the challenge is always, 
well, you're starting the 

698
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:51,960
construction projects and design
projects. 

699
00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:55,520
Everybody knows it's schematic 
design, design development, 

700
00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:59,040
construction drawings, right? 
And then contracted min. 

701
00:43:59,350 --> 00:44:05,850
Well, if you're starting with an
aesthetic and you have all this 

702
00:44:05,860 --> 00:44:11,480
stuff to workout, sometimes you 
need to do those tests to inform

703
00:44:11,490 --> 00:44:16,460
just your schematic design so 
that you can actually go to the 

704
00:44:16,530 --> 00:44:20,840
rest of the team. 
Because it's never just us and 

705
00:44:20,890 --> 00:44:24,130
be like, hey, OK, you need this 
kind of infrastructure. 

706
00:44:24,140 --> 00:44:27,490
This is how much space taking we
are probably going to need now 

707
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:32,380
that we understand how it's how 
it has to work because nature is

708
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:35,280
nature and we're basically just 
creating. 

709
00:44:35,580 --> 00:44:40,110
It's contrived but mimicking 
natural things. 

710
00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:47,080
So yeah, it's, it can be a 
little bit of cart before the 

711
00:44:47,090 --> 00:44:49,060
horse kind of thing if you're 
not careful. 

712
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:52,640
And so it's a it becomes very 
much a challenge. 

713
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,110
In the same ways that like you 
know, a residential or 

714
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,320
commercial public civic 
architects are going to use 

715
00:44:59,330 --> 00:45:02,280
modeling for their for their 
projects to understand how 

716
00:45:02,290 --> 00:45:06,360
lights going to move through it,
how they can play with that. 

717
00:45:06,750 --> 00:45:09,700
You can understand elevation. 
You can understand the like the 

718
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,420
the experience of what it looks 
like on mass in some capacity 

719
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:15,960
comparatively to person. 
There's like so many different 

720
00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:19,990
ways to be able to look at that,
but but also fundamentally it 

721
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,330
makes complete sense to 
understand because you don't 

722
00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:25,220
want to go through the process 
of designing something that 

723
00:45:25,230 --> 00:45:27,530
can't get built. 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

724
00:45:27,540 --> 00:45:31,590
And sometimes you know it, 
depending on the situation, if 

725
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,550
it's something that we 
understand. 

726
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,510
Mostly. 
But it's, you know, it's that 

727
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,870
that finer minutia that needs to
get worked out. 

728
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,720
Like, OK, at what point are you 
going to be happy with the 

729
00:45:42,730 --> 00:45:46,330
radius of the stone for how it 
delivers the water over the 

730
00:45:46,340 --> 00:45:47,890
edge? 
And you know. 

731
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,640
Is that radius makes a 
difference in terms of how that 

732
00:45:50,650 --> 00:45:54,380
water is going to accelerate or 
cling to the surface, right? 

733
00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:57,280
And that surface tension comes 
into play. 

734
00:45:57,590 --> 00:46:02,280
And so you might test. 
That sort of thing between SD 

735
00:46:02,290 --> 00:46:06,280
and D or during DD. 
But you know when it's something

736
00:46:06,290 --> 00:46:09,040
that is entirely new? 
You kind of have to do. 

737
00:46:09,050 --> 00:46:14,740
It even before SD just to get 
get it on, get it worked out. 

738
00:46:14,810 --> 00:46:17,940
And we got one project right now
where we're, I think we've 

739
00:46:17,950 --> 00:46:20,640
convinced the client that it's 
necessary. 

740
00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:25,720
And so in the backyard, just 
down the street, I'm going to be

741
00:46:25,730 --> 00:46:27,910
building a mock up over the next
couple of months in all 

742
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,830
likelihood. 
And just to test um. 

743
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,190
Faking a river. 
I mean, so let's get, let's 

744
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,330
provide some level of context 
for sure for people listening to

745
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:43,520
understand scale. 
Yeah, because there are 

746
00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:46,830
different obviously scales to 
what a fountain can do. 

747
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,910
Absolutely. 
So I mean, when when we talk 

748
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,980
about scale, we're talking about
everything from A. 

749
00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:00,010
Small architectural backyard 
fountain, but you know, the type

750
00:47:00,020 --> 00:47:03,550
we get into is, is typically on 
the higher end residential if 

751
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,550
if, if we're going to go into 
that realm. 

752
00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:09,050
Yep. 
And things that are generally a 

753
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:11,120
little bit more challenging or 
creative. 

754
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:18,080
So everything from open joint 
pavers with fog emanating out 

755
00:47:18,140 --> 00:47:22,290
underneath and it's glowing 
light out of the joints and 

756
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:31,030
catching that to rain effects 
and very simple things, there is

757
00:47:31,090 --> 00:47:34,320
a. 
On smallest scale, I would say 

758
00:47:34,330 --> 00:47:37,740
that we've ever done as an 
office, and this was more my 

759
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:42,170
father than myself. 
Post 911, there was a number of 

760
00:47:42,180 --> 00:47:43,920
memorials that were built. 
Hmm. 

761
00:47:44,070 --> 00:47:49,020
And in New York, there's two in 
particular that are sort of the 

762
00:47:49,030 --> 00:47:51,080
epitome of. 
Opposites of scale. 

763
00:47:51,890 --> 00:48:01,020
There is the memorial in. 
OHP shoot, apologize. 

764
00:48:01,030 --> 00:48:02,720
I gotta think about what's the 
name of the building? 

765
00:48:02,970 --> 00:48:07,100
It's is it 7? 
It's the seven drops basically. 

766
00:48:07,230 --> 00:48:11,770
I know you're talking about wow.
Hold on my brain. 

767
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,100
Zishan, redo this. 
Zishan, give us a second here. 

768
00:48:15,110 --> 00:48:17,570
I'm gonna look it up for a SEC. 
I know you're talking about, 

769
00:48:17,580 --> 00:48:23,780
Yeah, New York City Waterfall 
Monument. 

770
00:48:29,540 --> 00:48:35,410
What? 
Summer Memorial is the big 111 

771
00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:39,030
tiers and the American Express. 
OK, You ready to go back? 

772
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,190
Yeah, because we're gonna go 
back to the point where we talk 

773
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,830
about where Steve talks about 
New York. 

774
00:48:44,220 --> 00:48:47,110
So you talk about there's two in
New York, so let's start there. 

775
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,790
So. 
So 321. 

776
00:48:51,070 --> 00:48:53,450
New York, there's. 
Two particular projects that are

777
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:56,650
kind of the dichotomy of scale 2
opposite ends. 

778
00:48:56,740 --> 00:49:01,530
And these are well you designed.
So I was more involved. 

779
00:49:01,540 --> 00:49:05,850
With the second one, but the 
first one my father was very 

780
00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:12,270
intimately involved in and that 
is Ken Smith project at the 

781
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,520
American Express building, they 
lost a number. 

782
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:20,450
Of people. 
And so there is A fountain there

783
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:27,740
that is literally 1 teardrop per
person that falls once a minute.

784
00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:31,760
And so it's literally a drop of 
water once a minute landing on 

785
00:49:31,770 --> 00:49:34,900
each of their names as a 
memorial to them. 

786
00:49:35,310 --> 00:49:37,960
It's, it's a really moving piece
when you're there. 

787
00:49:38,310 --> 00:49:41,860
There's, there's some very fine 
nuance to making that work 

788
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,180
because at, at that scale and 
that little water, you're, 

789
00:49:46,190 --> 00:49:49,800
you're worried about flies 
blocking your holes like it's, 

790
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,520
it's really tiny. 
And so we get down to something 

791
00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:59,690
that small and then right 
outside is the WTC memorial, 

792
00:50:00,580 --> 00:50:04,550
which is the footprints of the 
original buildings, 1600 feet of

793
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:10,110
waterfall falling 30 some odd 
feet over an edge and you know, 

794
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,530
50,000 gallons a minute or 
something like that. 

795
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,410
It's completely the opposite, 
you know, It's it's this 

796
00:50:19,390 --> 00:50:23,000
presence of space. 
Both are very different presence

797
00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:28,520
of space, but the same effect 
like is there's a certain power 

798
00:50:28,530 --> 00:50:32,480
to it, but but in terms of 
scale, yeah, like you're talking

799
00:50:32,850 --> 00:50:35,600
in terms of. 
You know for mechanicals 

800
00:50:36,130 --> 00:50:41,900
probably 25,000 in mechanicals 
versus you know almost half a 

801
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:46,680
billion, so. 
It's a, it's a orders of 

802
00:50:46,690 --> 00:50:50,100
magnitude and difference. 
And so you know when we when we 

803
00:50:50,110 --> 00:50:52,700
deal with projects. 
We're. 

804
00:50:52,750 --> 00:50:57,000
We're open to a lot of different
scales at this point in our 

805
00:50:57,010 --> 00:50:59,580
careers. 
It's, you know, are we gonna do 

806
00:50:59,590 --> 00:51:03,980
something interesting, right? 
OK, so now that everyone 

807
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:08,760
listening as you can appreciate 
the magnitude of those two and 

808
00:51:08,770 --> 00:51:12,040
how important they are to New 
Yorkers and to Americans in 

809
00:51:12,050 --> 00:51:15,130
general and really pretty much 
almost anyone that wants to live

810
00:51:15,140 --> 00:51:17,140
in a free country like what 
those things are supposed to 

811
00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:21,920
embody and have symbolic there. 
It's funny cause I'm actually, 

812
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:26,400
we're recording this now, You 
know, it's pretty much what 

813
00:51:26,410 --> 00:51:28,120
called the beginning and end of 
April. 

814
00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:31,330
This will come out couple months
from now, but I'm heading to New

815
00:51:31,340 --> 00:51:34,780
York in two weeks, OK, I'm 
actually gonna now I'm gonna go 

816
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:36,780
and I'm gonna go see. 
I'm gonna go look at your work. 

817
00:51:36,830 --> 00:51:38,620
Amazing. 
Been there before and I've seen 

818
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:41,720
it, but I'm now something 
different. 

819
00:51:41,730 --> 00:51:44,780
Yeah. 
OK, so now let's talk about like

820
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:49,020
other places in the world that 
you know, if you are a tourist 

821
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,720
outside of New York. 
Yeah. 

822
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:57,170
You'll have likely seen 
something sure the dude has 

823
00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:58,410
touched. 
Sure. 

824
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,950
Well, I'll start close to home, 
so here in Toronto. 

825
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,150
Yeah, if you've been to the 
doggie fountain. 

826
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:07,790
Which is Burzy Park downtown? 
Yep, that's us. 

827
00:52:09,140 --> 00:52:11,540
Have you been to the Fountains? 
Dundas Square? 

828
00:52:11,710 --> 00:52:16,520
That's US Cloud Garden, which I 
think is now due for 

829
00:52:16,530 --> 00:52:19,290
revitalization. 
Yeah, but I'm not sure if that 

830
00:52:19,300 --> 00:52:22,600
one's running still. 
It's been 20 some odd years. 

831
00:52:23,950 --> 00:52:28,870
That was our office, um, shoot 
and then coming outside the 

832
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,650
city. 
We should say, before I forget, 

833
00:52:34,010 --> 00:52:37,540
like Love Park, I know there was
some contention around that with

834
00:52:37,550 --> 00:52:40,230
the water being dyed and going 
green. 

835
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,260
And, you know, the whole purpose
of that was trying to make the 

836
00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:46,400
system as environmentally 
conscious as we could. 

837
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:51,240
And so now there's some changes.
That will be implemented over 

838
00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:55,140
the coming. 
Years but but Nelson say working

839
00:52:55,150 --> 00:52:59,170
with like CX a on numerous 
projects around the area. 

840
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,140
Um. 
And then you go farther, you 

841
00:53:03,150 --> 00:53:10,390
know, we're, we're, we have work
in Calgary, Devonian Gardens. 

842
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:16,370
Um, we have work. 
Currently project is actually in

843
00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:21,840
process which is Olympic Plaza. 
I think I'm. 

844
00:53:21,850 --> 00:53:23,520
Allowed. 
I think I'm allowed to say that.

845
00:53:24,580 --> 00:53:27,510
It's it's, it's been an it's 
been announced. 

846
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,350
It's yeah, I think I'm OK to say
that cause it's been a announced

847
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:36,250
it's gone through. 
The renderings have been 

848
00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:39,910
released to the public and 
whatnot, so yeah that that ones 

849
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,720
in process. 
Um, that would be very cool 

850
00:53:42,730 --> 00:53:45,760
project as well. 
And that's with again. 

851
00:53:45,770 --> 00:53:52,420
CXA and Event Scape is doing 
this big sculptural tree that 

852
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:57,610
jets will be emanating from but 
actually shooting from birds on 

853
00:53:57,620 --> 00:53:58,880
the tree. 
Cool. 

854
00:53:58,890 --> 00:54:01,580
So cool. 
Yeah, Very, very fun. 

855
00:54:02,370 --> 00:54:05,490
Very, very much in line with 
that firm's style. 

856
00:54:07,690 --> 00:54:12,570
Shoot, New York, you've done a 
number we've, I would say 

857
00:54:12,580 --> 00:54:15,850
there's, there's a bunch of 
residences stretched across the 

858
00:54:15,860 --> 00:54:19,560
US that you know, higher end 
residences that we've done and, 

859
00:54:19,570 --> 00:54:21,160
and locally as well. 
You've done stuff. 

860
00:54:21,170 --> 00:54:24,060
Also, have you done not done 
stuff in throughout Asia? 

861
00:54:24,350 --> 00:54:31,430
We have so Middle East Bank 
Tower in Abu Dhabi, Yeah. 

862
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,710
And then there's a big circular 
fountain in front of that tower 

863
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:38,950
building. 
And then? 

864
00:54:40,140 --> 00:54:44,210
A lot of the theme parks 
actually, we got in to working a

865
00:54:44,220 --> 00:54:47,330
lot with Forex who are also a 
Toronto based. 

866
00:54:47,780 --> 00:54:51,930
They do theme park design and 
theme park and resorts and and 

867
00:54:51,940 --> 00:54:56,790
entertainment sort of things. 
Really excellent group of 

868
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,110
people. 
And so we've had the pleasure. 

869
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,480
Of working on a number of 
different theme parks, Lego 

870
00:55:03,490 --> 00:55:09,560
Lands and Wanda Lands in China, 
Shenzhen and Shanghai. 

871
00:55:09,610 --> 00:55:11,400
Incredible. 
Yeah. 

872
00:55:12,060 --> 00:55:16,300
Because like all Korea, like, 
yeah, it's, it's we've been very

873
00:55:16,310 --> 00:55:19,330
lucky in that regard. 
To it's and it's fun stuff like 

874
00:55:19,340 --> 00:55:23,160
you doing everything from, you 
know, water shooting from a Lego

875
00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:27,780
figure to. 
The flume rides and like rapid 

876
00:55:27,790 --> 00:55:30,700
river rides and and kind of 
calculating for that stuff, 

877
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:33,930
running jets out of pools and 
figuring out. 

878
00:55:33,980 --> 00:55:36,270
Sometimes. 
Sometimes it's just basic, like,

879
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,460
OK, well, you know, we've got a 
big large. 

880
00:55:39,380 --> 00:55:42,550
Collecting body of water because
we have to deal with runoff on 

881
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,150
site, you know, how do we filter
that and keep it so it doesn't 

882
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:50,070
look like a cesspool, right? 
So it's it's a requirement and 

883
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,930
you never know what kind of 
water quality you're going to 

884
00:55:51,940 --> 00:55:54,740
deal with. 
So dealing with just that basic 

885
00:55:54,750 --> 00:55:57,360
infrastructure on top of having 
to deal with the aesthetic 

886
00:55:57,370 --> 00:56:01,050
stuff, it's like, OK, well, you 
know, all these things have to 

887
00:56:01,060 --> 00:56:03,280
work together and the whole site
has to work. 

888
00:56:03,290 --> 00:56:09,690
Together without telling me 
specifically a project that that

889
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:14,040
I will ask about defining. 
Don't name it because I I don't 

890
00:56:14,050 --> 00:56:17,130
even know the answer to it. 
What has been one of the the 

891
00:56:17,140 --> 00:56:20,730
biggest challenges that you've 
come across when trying to 

892
00:56:20,740 --> 00:56:27,450
design a project like you've 
described that didn't go as 

893
00:56:27,460 --> 00:56:32,800
planned and you had to pivot? 
Ah, that's a good question. 

894
00:56:32,850 --> 00:56:35,560
Just describe the challenge 
versus the actual name of the 

895
00:56:35,570 --> 00:56:39,200
project where it is. 
Yeah, yeah, um. 

896
00:56:40,310 --> 00:56:41,920
I have to think about that one 
SEC. 

897
00:56:42,070 --> 00:56:44,360
Well, that's good. 
Yeah, that's a lot of it goes to

898
00:56:44,370 --> 00:56:46,220
plan. 
Yeah, a lot of it goes to plan. 

899
00:56:46,230 --> 00:56:50,040
I mean, there's, there's, I mean
there's times where execution 

900
00:56:50,050 --> 00:56:53,430
for one reason or another. 
Doesn't line up. 

901
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,340
Yep. 
And the challenge is always, I 

902
00:56:59,350 --> 00:57:02,040
would say more often than not 
the challenge is grading 

903
00:57:03,390 --> 00:57:07,680
mechanics wise, it's, you know, 
doing plumbing and stuff like 

904
00:57:07,690 --> 00:57:09,700
that is, is fairly 
straightforward, manageable. 

905
00:57:09,770 --> 00:57:11,220
It's manageable. 
Yeah, right. 

906
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:14,480
I mean, it's not to say there's 
not a specialty involved. 

907
00:57:14,490 --> 00:57:18,160
Usually it's it's specialty 
fountain contractors who will do

908
00:57:18,170 --> 00:57:23,500
the construction side because 
we're only design and so you you

909
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:28,410
need that sort of. 
Knowledgeable hands to work on 

910
00:57:28,420 --> 00:57:32,450
these because they are highly 
complex. 

911
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:35,290
It's not like you're backyard 
swimming pool kind of deal. 

912
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:41,290
Usually there's controls and, 
and, and a level of detail and 

913
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:45,030
nuance that's required that is 
far exceeding, you know, a 

914
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:46,710
little waterfall going into your
backyard swimming. 

915
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:53,830
Pool That said, I would say 
there there's one project in 

916
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:59,840
particular that didn't quite go 
as planned and I'm not sure if 

917
00:57:59,850 --> 00:58:02,170
they've sort of shifted gears on
it. 

918
00:58:02,460 --> 00:58:06,030
And, and I think, you know, for 
a long time it it still ran, but

919
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,550
the grading became an issue. 
It was very finely graded. 

920
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,970
And it's one of those things 
where getting specification 

921
00:58:15,340 --> 00:58:20,590
right and getting the right 
contractor for the job is not 

922
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,250
always the easiest. 
Because particularly when you're

923
00:58:24,260 --> 00:58:28,460
dealing with municipal or city 
owned. 

924
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:38,750
Projects there is always this 
underlying need to meet their 

925
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:39,910
procurement. 
Process right? 

926
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,940
Right, and I'm gonna try to say 
this as gently as I can. 

927
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:44,930
Anyone. 
Listening to this right now 

928
00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:48,040
works in the field of design. 
Can appreciate what you just 

929
00:58:48,050 --> 00:58:50,830
said, don't worry. 
Yeah, I'm trying to be gentle. 

930
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,190
About and if you're listening to
this and you're a part of the 

931
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,630
procurement process with the 
city, yeah, I understand there's

932
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,360
a lot of strife associated with 
it on the design. 

933
00:59:00,370 --> 00:59:04,640
Side yeah, it's it's not. 
And it's not that you know, 

934
00:59:04,650 --> 00:59:11,480
these things can't be overcome. 
It is more that when you do 

935
00:59:11,490 --> 00:59:18,160
something and the requirement is
the lowest bidder you get. 

936
00:59:18,430 --> 00:59:20,320
You get what you pay. 
For, yeah, and it's. 

937
00:59:20,330 --> 00:59:22,780
And when you're dealing with 
something this complex, with 

938
00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:25,280
this many integrated elements, 
yeah. 

939
00:59:25,290 --> 00:59:27,740
And and it's. 
Always the same thing. 

940
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:30,460
You hear this in this industry 
all the time, and it doesn't 

941
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:34,020
just ring true in this industry,
it's in anything. 

942
00:59:34,110 --> 00:59:39,040
Yeah, like it's, it's really, I 
cannot stress enough how 

943
00:59:39,050 --> 00:59:46,060
worthwhile it is for a city to 
actually invest in something and

944
00:59:46,070 --> 00:59:48,430
spend the dollars to do it 
right. 

945
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,190
Yeah, you you'll get what you 
pay for, and it will last. 

946
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:52,640
You're not gonna have to RIP it 
out in 10. 

947
00:59:52,650 --> 00:59:54,250
Years. 
I think the easiest way to 

948
00:59:54,260 --> 00:59:59,270
describe this failure, and it's 
not always a failure, but when 

949
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,180
it is a failure, when you say 
you get what you pay for. 

950
01:00:02,820 --> 01:00:10,040
You just think if you've ever 
had it eating a Big Mac combo, 

951
01:00:10,110 --> 01:00:13,260
yeah, and it might taste great 
when you're eating. 

952
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:16,590
It yeah, but you're feeling. 
Greatly feel it afterwards. 

953
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:18,700
Yeah. 
You go and eat a really 

954
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:23,440
delicious healthy meal from a 
place that has like, you know, 

955
01:00:23,450 --> 01:00:26,160
it's, it's organics and it cost 
the same thing. 

956
01:00:27,090 --> 01:00:29,600
And you probably feel pretty 
energized afterwards. 

957
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:31,720
Yeah, don't feel sluggish. 
Yep. 

958
01:00:31,770 --> 01:00:34,380
You get what you pay for. 100% 
agree. 

959
01:00:34,490 --> 01:00:37,900
So. 
So yeah, so I've got 22 projects

960
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:41,140
in mind, different things. 
One was grading, 1 was. 

961
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:46,190
The actually the plumbing 
contractor execution because 

962
01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:51,240
they didn't get a fountain 
specialist and both of them had 

963
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,310
had had problems and work had to
be done. 

964
01:00:54,320 --> 01:01:01,600
Like, yeah, it's it's tough. 
I mean when when you pour 

965
01:01:01,610 --> 01:01:04,730
concrete in the rain, when you 
shouldn't be pouring concrete in

966
01:01:04,740 --> 01:01:09,560
the rain for a large continuous 
slab that has to be accurate. 

967
01:01:09,570 --> 01:01:15,340
Like, and I mean accurate, it's.
It it better be good otherwise, 

968
01:01:15,350 --> 01:01:16,300
I mean. 
And what ended? 

969
01:01:16,310 --> 01:01:21,290
Up happening was. 
Grinding for weeks and then that

970
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,960
changes the finish of your 
finished product. 

971
01:01:23,970 --> 01:01:25,270
Yeah, right. 
Like it's not. 

972
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,680
And there's only so far you can 
go before you start compromising

973
01:01:28,690 --> 01:01:31,250
your concrete. 
Because for people who don't 

974
01:01:31,260 --> 01:01:35,610
know the the minimum. 
Required amount of coverage on 

975
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:38,250
rebar in the concrete. 
That's the metal rods that tie 

976
01:01:38,260 --> 01:01:41,070
the concrete together, so adding
the tensile strength to the 

977
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,080
concrete. 
Which is great structural or 

978
01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:47,810
compressive strength there is is
2 inches or 50mm. 

979
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:53,370
So if you spend, you know, 
you're grinding down from what 

980
01:01:53,380 --> 01:01:58,910
was 2 inches of cover to now an 
inch of cover, your chances of 

981
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:02,480
having that concrete pop later 
on due to thermal expansion 

982
01:02:02,490 --> 01:02:05,890
contraction, especially in the 
kind of climate we have here in 

983
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:09,250
Canada. 
Just it's just for layman terms,

984
01:02:09,460 --> 01:02:12,810
meaning like it's gonna buckle 
because the ground is gonna 

985
01:02:12,820 --> 01:02:14,840
thaw. 
Yeah, it's gonna crack, and 

986
01:02:14,850 --> 01:02:17,210
they're gonna crack at different
rates because they're too close 

987
01:02:17,220 --> 01:02:19,230
to the surface. 
And. 

988
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,330
Or move at different rates, I 
should say. 

989
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:25,770
And so you end up creating 
excessive stresses within there.

990
01:02:25,780 --> 01:02:28,630
And at a certain point it just 
gives and there's nothing you 

991
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,440
can do about that. 
So, so yeah, there's there's 

992
01:02:32,450 --> 01:02:34,550
that. 
And then you know on the other 

993
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,330
project where it was a plumbing 
install and it's. 

994
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,350
The the contractor didn't have 
experience in doing the plumbing

995
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,690
and just they kind of looked at 
the drawings and did whatever. 

996
01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:50,490
Well, so, so well, so tell me 
like So what do you, what do you

997
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:53,840
do to correct that in those 
scenarios like the one where 

998
01:02:53,850 --> 01:02:55,730
they have to shave down? 
The concrete. 

999
01:02:56,020 --> 01:02:59,430
Is there anything that you can 
do to provide a solution for 

1000
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,990
them or something where they 
just have to take it all out and

1001
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,580
do it again? 
To a certain extent, some of it 

1002
01:03:04,590 --> 01:03:07,290
could be corrected and there 
were certain areas that had to 

1003
01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:10,820
be done and then it's basically 
OK, well, you know, if we are 

1004
01:03:10,830 --> 01:03:15,690
going to modify this or accept 
this alternative solution, this 

1005
01:03:15,700 --> 01:03:19,190
change, you know. 
How do we integrate that into 

1006
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:23,470
what we can retain and and that 
is the challenge. 

1007
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,900
So you know, sometimes it's OK. 
Well, we're going to take it 

1008
01:03:26,910 --> 01:03:31,710
back in a very specific way. 
And when we deal with our 

1009
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,100
surface finish, we are going to 
seed the surface finish or 

1010
01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:38,040
reseed the surface finish after 
so. 

1011
01:03:38,110 --> 01:03:41,580
There's there's a cost to the 
contractor course obviously, but

1012
01:03:41,650 --> 01:03:46,180
but it's yeah, at least then 
you're retaining that integrity 

1013
01:03:46,190 --> 01:03:47,680
to the greatest degree. 
Possible. 

1014
01:03:47,690 --> 01:03:49,820
And you're looking at something 
that's hopefully going to look 

1015
01:03:49,830 --> 01:03:51,500
intentional versus an 
afterthought. 

1016
01:03:51,510 --> 01:03:53,120
Absolutely error. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1017
01:03:53,170 --> 01:03:59,470
And that's it. 
So, so tell me just kind of from

1018
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:03,950
a global scale, hmm, how often 
are you brought in early in a 

1019
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,270
project? 
How often are you an 

1020
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,090
afterthought to the project? 
What's the percentage? 

1021
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,490
Percentage wise, that's that's a
good question. 

1022
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:14,660
So. 
I would say it really depends on

1023
01:04:14,670 --> 01:04:18,540
our client, OK. 
So oftentimes we we've have we 

1024
01:04:18,550 --> 01:04:20,130
have a lot of repeat clients. 
Yeah. 

1025
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:26,330
And the ones who we've worked 
with for a number of years 

1026
01:04:27,010 --> 01:04:29,370
understand even if they have 
turnover, there's like. 

1027
01:04:29,380 --> 01:04:33,380
This inherent knowledge that 
gets passed in through, passed 

1028
01:04:33,390 --> 01:04:36,780
down in the company and. 
They'll go OK, we have a 

1029
01:04:36,790 --> 01:04:39,820
project. 
It's in, you know, concept 

1030
01:04:39,830 --> 01:04:42,920
phase. 
We want to get you guys on board

1031
01:04:42,930 --> 01:04:46,740
so that we can understand what 
we're getting into, what will. 

1032
01:04:46,750 --> 01:04:49,230
Work well because you become a 
part of the infrastructure of 

1033
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,400
the overall. 
Construction, yeah, yeah, 

1034
01:04:51,410 --> 01:04:54,570
exactly. 
So example, you know, talking 

1035
01:04:54,580 --> 01:04:57,500
with Janet Rosenberg and Studio 
on a project that we're working 

1036
01:04:57,510 --> 01:05:02,350
on them and I can't name the 
project, don't worry, but but it

1037
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,430
is, it's one of those things 
where as they're going through 

1038
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,750
their design process, conceptual
design process to bring towards 

1039
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:12,090
donors. 
And, and before it goes to 

1040
01:05:12,100 --> 01:05:17,700
public, it's like, OK, we have 
these ideas, but we want to make

1041
01:05:17,710 --> 01:05:21,570
sure that they actually are 
viable ideas and, and what what 

1042
01:05:21,580 --> 01:05:24,730
might it entail? 
Like ballpark it and back of the

1043
01:05:24,740 --> 01:05:28,340
napkin, you know, and we can sit
there and go, OK, you know, if 

1044
01:05:28,350 --> 01:05:30,970
you take this approach, you can 
try these things. 

1045
01:05:30,980 --> 01:05:35,090
Here's the limits to what you're
based on what you've rendered so

1046
01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:38,590
far as your concept. 
This is what you might need to 

1047
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,870
achieve, right? 
And so, so there's great clients

1048
01:05:42,940 --> 01:05:45,610
like that. 
And then there's the flip side 

1049
01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:50,460
where it's a good client, but 
either they're being brought on 

1050
01:05:50,470 --> 01:05:52,800
late or you're being brought on 
late. 

1051
01:05:53,020 --> 01:05:57,620
And so now it's a rush to catch 
up and and you're scrambling 

1052
01:05:57,630 --> 01:06:02,160
because the infrastructure 
hasn't been allowed for and the 

1053
01:06:02,230 --> 01:06:06,940
structural, the design of the 
rest of the systems and building

1054
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,460
nothing allows for you to do the
thing. 

1055
01:06:11,870 --> 01:06:14,100
Yeah. 
And but they've shown renderings

1056
01:06:14,110 --> 01:06:18,330
to a client who's bought into 
this idea that is now. 

1057
01:06:19,170 --> 01:06:21,050
God, how is this even? 
Possible. 

1058
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,040
Well, I mean they've already 
used up most of their clients 

1059
01:06:23,050 --> 01:06:25,050
budget at this point. 
Yeah, which? 

1060
01:06:25,060 --> 01:06:27,720
Doesn't leave you with much, and
so now you have to. 

1061
01:06:27,820 --> 01:06:29,950
Yeah, you're working within that
reality. 

1062
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,910
Try and be. 
Yeah, well, it's it's, it's as 

1063
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:38,900
diplomatic as you can being as 
forthright about what the 

1064
01:06:38,910 --> 01:06:40,610
realities of those requirements 
will. 

1065
01:06:40,620 --> 01:06:44,210
Be just like even in a in a 
meeting. 

1066
01:06:44,220 --> 01:06:46,800
Just, you know, hey, I'm just 
gonna while we're doing this, 

1067
01:06:46,810 --> 01:06:49,350
while we're talking about this, 
this is what the back of the 

1068
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:53,340
napkin math says. 
And I'm and I've spent time over

1069
01:06:53,350 --> 01:06:56,890
the years developing some Excel 
spreadsheets to save. 

1070
01:06:56,900 --> 01:06:59,930
Myself some time on on the math 
so that while I'm in these 

1071
01:06:59,940 --> 01:07:03,550
conversations I can be like, OK,
plug this number in. 

1072
01:07:03,940 --> 01:07:06,590
What is that? 
What does that mean for how much

1073
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,950
water in theory we might need? 
What does that mean for pipe 

1074
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,210
sizes? 
And then work backwards. 

1075
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:16,970
And so it's, it becomes very 
much challenging, but it's also 

1076
01:07:16,980 --> 01:07:22,640
I think at that point really 
helpful for the client as an our

1077
01:07:22,650 --> 01:07:26,200
client, which would be the 
architect, engineer design firm.

1078
01:07:27,610 --> 01:07:31,730
What what it actually means 
because oftentimes when we are 

1079
01:07:31,740 --> 01:07:35,940
brought on late, it's we're 
looking at and being shown 

1080
01:07:35,950 --> 01:07:38,620
details that they have started 
for a fountain. 

1081
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:43,580
So they had something to price 
and the pipe sizes are like it's

1082
01:07:43,590 --> 01:07:47,420
like a 2 inch pipe for something
that requires a 12 inch pipe, 

1083
01:07:47,470 --> 01:07:48,920
right? 
And and to give you a sense of 

1084
01:07:48,930 --> 01:07:53,800
scale for water, every pipe 
diameter increase is double the 

1085
01:07:53,810 --> 01:07:57,770
flow. 
So in a 2 inch pipe. 50 GPM. 

1086
01:07:58,450 --> 01:08:00,640
A three inch GPM GPM gallons per
minute. 

1087
01:08:00,650 --> 01:08:01,650
Sorry, yes. 
It's OK. 

1088
01:08:02,210 --> 01:08:03,960
I just want to make sure people.
Understand what we're talking. 

1089
01:08:03,970 --> 01:08:05,860
No, that's that's fair. 
I know. 

1090
01:08:05,870 --> 01:08:07,460
Yeah. 
Gallons per minute. 

1091
01:08:07,470 --> 01:08:10,860
So 50 gallons a minute. 
It, for context, is like 10 

1092
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:14,620
garden hoses and your garden 
hose and your typical backyard. 

1093
01:08:14,730 --> 01:08:19,330
5 gallons a minute and I 
apologize, that is an imperial 

1094
01:08:19,340 --> 01:08:21,700
form and we're in Canada, but 
like this is what we're all 

1095
01:08:21,710 --> 01:08:24,510
good. 
So, so 50 gallons a minute at 2 

1096
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:28,330
inch, 100 gallons a minute at 3 
inch, so on and so forth. 

1097
01:08:28,340 --> 01:08:33,090
So you're looking at like 1200 
gallons, 1400 gallons in a 12 

1098
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:36,189
inch pipe. 
But they've only shown a 2 inch 

1099
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,630
pipe and to to put that much 
water through a 2 inch pipe, you

1100
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:42,890
will literally destroy the pipe 
burst. 

1101
01:08:42,899 --> 01:08:44,560
It'll burst. 
It's just not it's not 

1102
01:08:44,569 --> 01:08:48,960
physically possible. 
So it, it certainly creates a 

1103
01:08:48,970 --> 01:08:56,490
lot of challenges and sometimes 
months of meetings where you're,

1104
01:08:56,569 --> 01:08:58,770
you know, you're, you're 
educating and you're holding 

1105
01:08:58,779 --> 01:09:01,600
their hand through it and you're
being as gentle as you can, but 

1106
01:09:01,710 --> 01:09:07,920
also have to be forceful because
there's only so much that the 

1107
01:09:08,020 --> 01:09:10,750
physics and the mechanics and 
the engineering. 

1108
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:13,790
Allow. 
Forget that there's also so much

1109
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,840
that your feet can allow. 
Well, yeah. 

1110
01:09:15,850 --> 01:09:19,660
And educating a client, yeah, 
before you're now already in the

1111
01:09:19,670 --> 01:09:23,279
red and you're not providing the
service that you intend to 

1112
01:09:23,290 --> 01:09:27,560
provide because now this project
is a strain as if you're 

1113
01:09:27,569 --> 01:09:29,990
resources as a business. 
Yeah, yeah, you're just eating 

1114
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,630
all that time off and you still 
have to do the work. 

1115
01:09:32,729 --> 01:09:34,380
And it's just. 
You end up. 

1116
01:09:34,609 --> 01:09:39,590
Doing it more than once because 
the they don't quite understand 

1117
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,870
yet and they want to explore 
every option. 

1118
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,000
So, so for anyone that's 
listening to this, I don't care 

1119
01:09:45,010 --> 01:09:48,520
where you live in the world, if 
you're an architect or you're a 

1120
01:09:48,529 --> 01:09:52,050
designer and there's a 
contemplation of some form of 

1121
01:09:52,060 --> 01:09:54,610
water feature associated with 
what you're doing. 

1122
01:09:54,650 --> 01:09:58,350
As early as possible. 
Please ring this person in early

1123
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:02,970
and this person, his name is 
Steve K Call do bring them in 

1124
01:10:02,980 --> 01:10:07,570
early and resolve some of the 
questions early on so that you 

1125
01:10:07,580 --> 01:10:10,500
can have a project that's gonna 
float properly. 

1126
01:10:10,570 --> 01:10:13,420
Yeah, I see what I did there. 
Very nice, I like it. 

1127
01:10:15,220 --> 01:10:18,450
Steve, I gotta tell you, man, it
has been so formative, so 

1128
01:10:18,460 --> 01:10:21,810
interesting to have you on to, 
to talk about all of this. 

1129
01:10:22,180 --> 01:10:25,990
I think that there are I I'm 
gonna have to assume if if you 

1130
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:30,020
if you're listening at this 
point, Kim favor like comment. 

1131
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,370
OK, if you're in Spotify, you 
can comment about what you've 

1132
01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:35,950
taken away from this cause I 
think I have found it so 

1133
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:41,150
engaging, so interesting. 
You'll be you can also head over

1134
01:10:42,430 --> 01:10:44,990
to Instagram. 
You can take a look at the work 

1135
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,830
that's that Steve's gonna want 
to feature from do on Instagram.

1136
01:10:49,580 --> 01:10:53,690
Last thing, I also asked, please
readings help with exposure. 

1137
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:55,850
You can go out there and give 
five stars to this thing on 

1138
01:10:55,860 --> 01:10:58,870
whatever device you're listening
on, whether it's our platform, 

1139
01:10:59,060 --> 01:11:03,710
Spotify, Apple, YouTube, good 
pods, whatever it is, please 

1140
01:11:03,780 --> 01:11:07,230
five stars that helps Steve. 
Thank you, man. 

1141
01:11:07,340 --> 01:11:09,980
I know that you got a deadline. 
And so we've actually been able 

1142
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:11,930
to achieve what you needed in 
terms of time. 

1143
01:11:13,370 --> 01:11:15,330
Thanks for coming man. 
Much appreciated. 

1144
01:11:15,340 --> 01:11:16,480
Hope, thanks. 
Walk home. 

1145
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:19,400
Yeah, yes, excellent.