1 00:00:01,410 --> 00:00:02,430 Let's do it. Let's go. 2 00:00:03,740 --> 00:00:10,730 Uh, alright, Zishan. Hey man, it is time to start a 3 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:17,530 recording. Zeeshan, go, Here we go. 321, 4 00:00:17,540 --> 00:00:19,410 welcome to issued for Construction. 5 00:00:19,420 --> 00:00:22,150 I'm your host, Jonathan Jacobs, and today with me a gentleman 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,920 that I met last year. One I was working at Walden. 7 00:00:27,390 --> 00:00:29,590 I was introduced to him through some other people within the 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,500 industry. You've already read his name and 9 00:00:32,509 --> 00:00:35,660 the name of the episode. So as funny as I do this, I'm 10 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:38,350 like, oh, you know, I'm you already know who it is. 11 00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:43,660 But his name is Craig Forda is Craig Fordyce is the owner of 12 00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:47,780 Studio Deep. And for those of you that don't 13 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:50,030 know Craig well, I'm going to tell you you're missing it 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,320 because he's a great guy sitting across me right now. 15 00:00:52,330 --> 00:00:53,660 He didn't know I was going to say all this. 16 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:55,780 So, Craig, thanks for joining me today. 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,850 Yeah, that's great. I'm excited to be here. 18 00:00:57,860 --> 00:00:58,930 Jonathan, thanks for having. Me. 19 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:02,150 You're welcome. So you give me some background 20 00:01:04,810 --> 00:01:07,400 which introduced to Craig through a couple guys here in 21 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:11,720 Toronto, Jason Halter and Joel Loblaw subsequently met Stefano 22 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:19,260 through you incredible team. Craig's work is visible pretty 23 00:01:19,270 --> 00:01:22,700 much all throughout the GTA. And I say Craig's work, I should 24 00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:26,340 say the studios work is available and visible and can be 25 00:01:26,350 --> 00:01:28,640 engaged with all through the GTA and beyond. 26 00:01:29,060 --> 00:01:33,820 And we'll get into all of that. So if you want to, you obviously 27 00:01:33,830 --> 00:01:35,390 can head over to Instagram and see the work. 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,680 You can head to their website. It's available online or notes. 29 00:01:37,690 --> 00:01:42,690 But with all of that said in my rant now, complete egg. 30 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,550 Tell me. Tell everyone else who's 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,300 listening a little bit about you. 32 00:01:47,310 --> 00:01:51,440 Where were you born? What was life like for you as a 33 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:53,400 kid? What kind of kid were you? 34 00:01:53,590 --> 00:01:57,880 Start start there. Alright, OK, well I was, I was 35 00:01:57,890 --> 00:02:01,720 born in Northern Ontario, OK. So I was born in Sudbury, OK. 36 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:05,740 And you know, the first, you know, sort of 7-8 years of life, 37 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:09,580 we're in Caprial, which is about an hour north of Sudbury, so 38 00:02:09,590 --> 00:02:13,290 small CNN town. And so I have an affinity for 39 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:15,760 the north. I really, you know, I think that 40 00:02:15,770 --> 00:02:19,120 that's some of my, my favorite places to be. 41 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:25,460 And then my family moved to southern Ontario, you know, it 42 00:02:25,470 --> 00:02:28,900 was about 8 years old and into Niagara where my mother was 43 00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:29,760 from. OK. 44 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:34,320 And it was interesting because my dad was working in aviation 45 00:02:34,330 --> 00:02:38,870 up in, in Sudbury. He was, he was the weatherman 46 00:02:39,010 --> 00:02:43,600 and also the meteorologist for the Sudbury International 47 00:02:43,610 --> 00:02:47,230 Airport at the time. So when he came S he actually 48 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,230 moved into marine and he was like focused on the sort of the 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,070 Great Lakes and with the well in canal, you know that sort of. 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,110 System. Yeah. 51 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,950 So we, we relocated in, in Niagara and, and then that's 52 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,410 where I, I basically, you know, finished my elementary school, 53 00:03:07,420 --> 00:03:09,930 went to high school and it was great. 54 00:03:09,980 --> 00:03:12,770 I really enjoyed that area as well and have a, you know, sort 55 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:16,820 of a, a fond, fond, fond memories of growing up there. 56 00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:19,270 And it was, it was a great place to sort of, you know, have my 57 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:20,810 roots. And what? 58 00:03:20,860 --> 00:03:22,890 What was it? Do you have siblings? 59 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:25,010 What? Yeah, I got a brother. 60 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:28,550 OK, younger brother, a Cam, he's a he's awesome. 61 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,610 He's a he's a business owner as well. 62 00:03:30,620 --> 00:03:33,810 OK. He he went more the agricultural 63 00:03:33,820 --> 00:03:38,890 route and was, you know, we're 1616 months apart. 64 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:44,430 So, you know, we're close, close and you know, we had a lot to do 65 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,630 with each other, you know, growing up and to this day, you 66 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,450 know, we're, we're tight. He's in Guelph and you know, 67 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:54,690 he's got 2 awesome, I've got 2 awesome nephews from him. 68 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:57,310 So really good. That's great. 69 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,810 Yeah. And were you were the 2 of you 70 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:02,920 like when you were growing up, you say an hour plus north of 71 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:05,110 Sudbury for those first eight years? 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,330 Like were you were you into hockey? 73 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,160 Were you were you playing baseball? 74 00:04:11,170 --> 00:04:15,270 Were you instrumental? Were you scientific? 75 00:04:15,330 --> 00:04:18,850 Were you painting? Where you creating snow forts? 76 00:04:18,860 --> 00:04:22,410 Like what kind of? Thing a lot of snow forest yeah, 77 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:24,490 definitely in the. You have a tunnel system. 78 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:26,490 Yeah, Tunnel system everything, man. 79 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:30,510 Yeah, that was like, yeah, if we get into the snow, yeah, into a 80 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,350 snow bank, that's like, that's what we would do is just, you 81 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,210 know, dig these caves and stuff. And it was, it was awesome. 82 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,230 Yeah, definitely. Remember those days and. 83 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,770 There's a big smile on your face, right? 84 00:04:40,780 --> 00:04:44,270 Yeah, no, it was that that brings back some good memories, 85 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:47,970 actually, as a kid. Yeah, I think that the the 86 00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:49,630 northern lifestyle was interesting. 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,410 Small town. My dad played hockey and stuff 88 00:04:52,830 --> 00:04:56,910 and was extremely athletic. He was from the GTA and he was, 89 00:04:57,020 --> 00:05:00,040 he was a track athlete here and football player and hockey 90 00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:03,280 player. So we grew up with like a lot of 91 00:05:03,430 --> 00:05:07,370 encouragement to play sports. And both my brother and I, you 92 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:13,320 know, competed at, you know, relatively high athletic levels 93 00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:15,980 all the way through university. So in in what sports? 94 00:05:16,670 --> 00:05:19,280 My brother swam and I ran track and field. 95 00:05:19,610 --> 00:05:21,480 Yeah. And were you short or long or 96 00:05:21,490 --> 00:05:25,980 mid? Mid, mid range, like 600 indoors 97 00:05:25,990 --> 00:05:29,500 and 4 by 8 where the 2 events that I ran when I was in 98 00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:35,130 university and I, I did like a, you know, as a youth and like 99 00:05:35,140 --> 00:05:38,010 into high school, did a lot of, a lot of different sports, 100 00:05:38,020 --> 00:05:41,250 right? And played, played soccer, you 101 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:44,810 know, which I played till I was, you know, probably 18. 102 00:05:44,820 --> 00:05:47,650 And Yep, not to the level that my boys play today, but 103 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,970 definitely, you know, sort of enjoyed the game and beautiful 104 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:53,970 game. You know, it's, it's awesome. 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,590 And then, you know, it didn't get really into the hockey or 106 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,000 the OR the sort of American football that my dad was, but, 107 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,070 you know, always had an appreciation for it. 108 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,630 And especially, you know, Canada, you know, it's the the 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Canadian game on the on the hockey end of it. 110 00:06:09,410 --> 00:06:12,180 And, and he was a big fan of CFL. 111 00:06:12,190 --> 00:06:16,340 So, you know, we, we always like sort of had that around my 112 00:06:16,350 --> 00:06:19,100 grandfather as well, you know, going down Saturday nights and, 113 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:22,880 you know, watching, watching the the hockey game was always like 114 00:06:22,890 --> 00:06:25,360 a tradition, you know, in our family sort of thing. 115 00:06:25,370 --> 00:06:28,900 So yeah, I think it was sports were were important, but also 116 00:06:28,910 --> 00:06:31,000 music. My brother and I were both 117 00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:33,600 encouraged to, you know, sort of play instruments and stuff. 118 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:36,500 So where did you play the piano? OK, yeah. 119 00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:39,010 So I, you know, I, I was one of those guys though that didn't 120 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:41,160 have my ears. Not great, right. 121 00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:44,670 So I I did the theory and and and did I did my Royal 122 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,850 Conservatory to the 10th level. I guess it would have been and 123 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,870 and. How many levels are there? 124 00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:54,330 I think that that's like the kind of where you you kind of 125 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:55,560 top out. OK. 126 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,110 I think that there's like, maybe I can't remember exactly. 127 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,310 Like it had like the theory was like different. 128 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,810 Like it was like, you know, there was like maybe I was like 129 00:07:04,820 --> 00:07:06,750 the third level of theory sort of thing. 130 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,990 And it was, yeah, it was good. It was, it was something I 131 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,160 really enjoyed and I didn't have to really be told to practice, 132 00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:17,770 you know? So it was something I found 133 00:07:17,780 --> 00:07:21,540 always like a little soothing and way to clear my mind. 134 00:07:21,650 --> 00:07:24,080 Yeah. I didn't have like a, I wouldn't 135 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:26,540 say like a a great skill. I could read music well. 136 00:07:26,550 --> 00:07:29,960 But like the ear thing I always like was irritated by the guy at 137 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:34,100 the campsite that would pull out the guitar right, start singing 138 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:37,580 without, without much probably schooling. 139 00:07:37,590 --> 00:07:40,120 They didn't have the lessons and stuff and just started singing 140 00:07:40,130 --> 00:07:42,740 beautifully. And I'd be like, you can't bring 141 00:07:42,750 --> 00:07:45,060 this piano to the to the campfire. 142 00:07:45,070 --> 00:07:47,100 And I have no ear, so I Can't Sing. 143 00:07:48,660 --> 00:07:51,190 So frustrating. But anyway, yeah, that's just an 144 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,620 aside. I, it's so I've kind of told 145 00:07:55,630 --> 00:07:58,480 this story before, but I, so I grew up, I, I played, I played 146 00:07:58,490 --> 00:08:01,050 guitar when I was really young. I was top by a guy named Ellie 147 00:08:01,060 --> 00:08:06,920 Casner, who it was like a a famous classical guitarist for 148 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:09,920 for Canada. He got the Order of Canada. 149 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:13,920 One point was top by him and then another woman that that was 150 00:08:13,930 --> 00:08:18,400 topped by him who was at the time was considered, you know, 151 00:08:18,410 --> 00:08:22,940 the other big name, and I was not the big name just for just 152 00:08:23,050 --> 00:08:27,620 say that got it was Leona Boyd. And she was like a, you know, 153 00:08:27,630 --> 00:08:30,760 international star of classical guitar back in the day. 154 00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:34,049 And the same thing, like, you know, I stopped playing. 155 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:36,450 And then you go to these, go to like overnight camp and this guy 156 00:08:36,460 --> 00:08:37,750 cracks out the guitar and starts playing. 157 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,270 And I was like, Ohi was better than you when I when I was 7. 158 00:08:41,460 --> 00:08:43,690 And they can't do it now. I don't know how. 159 00:08:45,930 --> 00:08:51,980 Yeah, it's so frustrating. Anyhow, so, so So what about 160 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:56,860 when you moved S to Niagara? How long were you in Niagara 161 00:08:56,870 --> 00:09:01,090 for? I lived there until I guess it 162 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:08,450 would have been 1989 and then I actually didn't exchange to 163 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:10,940 Finland where. I in high school. 164 00:09:11,060 --> 00:09:14,890 Or yeah, my last year, last year high school, I spent basically 165 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:18,190 sacrificed my my at that point in time, my OC. 166 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,590 Year. 13 to go to Finland, so I had to come back and finish that 167 00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:24,570 before I went on to university, but. 168 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:27,820 What was in Finland? Finland. 169 00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:31,800 I went on Rotary exchange, which was amazing. 170 00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:35,560 I had a wonderful time. I didn't actually pick Finland 171 00:09:35,630 --> 00:09:41,120 as like the country that I wanted to go to, but I found 172 00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:46,420 myself there and and I had a like unbelievable experience 173 00:09:46,430 --> 00:09:49,140 like it was. It was somewhat foundational, I 174 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:56,170 think to me getting into, you know, sort of architecture just 175 00:09:56,180 --> 00:09:59,390 given the, you know, you know, living in sort of a Scandinavian 176 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:03,510 country and, you know, visiting, you know, Stockholm and Helsinki 177 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,590 and and sort of living in a smaller. 178 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,440 I was in Vakos, which is about, I guess, four to five hours 179 00:10:10,450 --> 00:10:14,720 north of of Helsinki. So again, northern, you know, it 180 00:10:14,730 --> 00:10:17,060 was like pretty dark a lot of the winters. 181 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:19,460 You know, the Viking territory. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was 182 00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:21,590 great. It was it was, I guess, taking 183 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,380 me back to my youth discern extent. 184 00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:27,340 And you know, it was, you know, very much like northern Ontario, 185 00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:30,060 like a lot of you know, small lakes and you know, a lot of 186 00:10:30,070 --> 00:10:35,780 forest and right really, the fins are a little shy at first, 187 00:10:35,790 --> 00:10:40,920 right? But they they get a bit of the 188 00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:44,010 cost can quote random like vodka and then the then. 189 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:46,030 They loosen up. The Finglish starts coming out 190 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,910 and, and, and you know, it was, it was like a really amazing 191 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,860 experience. Like just the, the people are 192 00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:55,840 beautiful. The the the the landscape is 193 00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:59,570 beautiful and, and, and the architecture was beautiful and 194 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:02,680 impactful even though I didn't really know it at the time. 195 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,670 I was going to ask you, like when you were, when you went 196 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,250 there, did you know where you'd eventually kind of land 197 00:11:08,260 --> 00:11:10,810 professionally or do you have no idea you were just going there? 198 00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:13,060 Yeah. Yeah, like I think I was always, 199 00:11:13,610 --> 00:11:17,940 you know, I enjoyed our in school and I I enjoyed, you 200 00:11:17,950 --> 00:11:21,700 know, sort of making things. I think that the the idea of 201 00:11:21,710 --> 00:11:25,920 making my grandfather was a like he would do woodworking, you 202 00:11:25,930 --> 00:11:29,300 know, he had a shop and he would always take my brother and I out 203 00:11:29,310 --> 00:11:33,520 and, you know, spin stuff on the lathe with us And that So I I 204 00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:37,730 really enjoyed that. That was something I always, you 205 00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:41,600 know, paid attention and, and, and I'm happy that I did. 206 00:11:41,610 --> 00:11:44,100 Like it's good memories in terms of seeing with my grandfather 207 00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:48,840 and, and, and sort of, you know, listening to him, you know, talk 208 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:51,500 about, you know, making something and, and making 209 00:11:51,510 --> 00:11:53,500 mistakes. And like how you can, you know, 210 00:11:53,510 --> 00:11:59,970 use a mistake to, to really, you know, find something else, 211 00:11:59,980 --> 00:12:02,960 something beautiful that other people won't recognize it as a 212 00:12:02,970 --> 00:12:04,540 mistake. You're the only one that would 213 00:12:04,610 --> 00:12:08,020 would see that sort of if you're, if you really, you know, 214 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:10,160 think outside the box in terms of how to solve it. 215 00:12:10,170 --> 00:12:15,240 And, you know, he had some some very nice insights that I think, 216 00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:17,480 you know, have resonated, you know, sort of throughout my 217 00:12:17,490 --> 00:12:19,380 life. Yeah, cool. 218 00:12:19,870 --> 00:12:25,230 And So what from that experience were you able to bring back with 219 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,950 you that you felt was kind of game changing for your 220 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,880 trajectory? I think when I came back, like I 221 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:37,640 had a year left in high school, I went to a high school in Font 222 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:41,400 Hill called Yale Crosley. And it was an interesting high 223 00:12:41,410 --> 00:12:44,640 school cause it, you know, it did you know a lot of sports and 224 00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:47,120 stuff. And you know, I was going 225 00:12:47,130 --> 00:12:52,050 through trying to get my courses to, to be able to apply to 226 00:12:52,060 --> 00:12:55,230 university and my language had suffered. 227 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,270 I think my English had had had suffered a little bit while I 228 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,320 was in Finland. And by no stretch of the 229 00:13:01,330 --> 00:13:05,760 imagination did I, you know, master finish in that one year. 230 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,520 But I did OK. Yeah, did OK for for a guy 231 00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:12,210 without an ear. And when I came back, you know, 232 00:13:12,220 --> 00:13:14,690 I think, you know, I was, I was pushing, you know, sort of 233 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:16,930 academically to to get my marks up. 234 00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:23,610 And the school had like a has a a large mural on the front of it 235 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,470 by. On the exterior. 236 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,430 Yeah, yeah, the it's, it's quite beautiful. 237 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:33,240 It's a mosaic, like it's a full, I think 4 story sort of thing. 238 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:35,320 Wow. Yeah, it's it's, it's a gorgeous 239 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:39,720 by an artist named Heinz Goggle. And he was like a a local. 240 00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:43,820 He had a studio actually in the top of the high school, like in 241 00:13:43,830 --> 00:13:47,240 this atrium space at one point. And he was a it was sort of a 242 00:13:47,250 --> 00:13:52,950 weird sort of set up there and, and really kind of, you know, 243 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,600 something that I always thought was was was kind of cool. 244 00:13:56,030 --> 00:14:00,200 And, you know, I really didn't, you know, focus on the, on the 245 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:05,560 art, but it was something that I enjoyed and I liked science. 246 00:14:05,570 --> 00:14:09,660 And then coming back from Finland, I, I found that, you 247 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:12,280 know, there was this like sort of, there's something about 248 00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:15,040 architecture that's seemed intriguing then, you know, and 249 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:18,610 it was, I think I liked the scale of the buildings there. 250 00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:21,580 I lived in, you know, sort of small finish homes that were a 251 00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:24,360 lot of them designed, right. It was the first time I had 252 00:14:24,370 --> 00:14:28,370 really, you know, started inhabited homes that were 253 00:14:28,380 --> 00:14:31,400 designed by an architect, right? You know, I, I grew up in, in 254 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:36,020 sort of a suburban community like many of us in, in Ontario. 255 00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:40,810 And you know, you know, a builder home has a, has a 256 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:43,270 particular quality to it, especially those, you know, sort 257 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,750 of built in the, in the 70s. I think there's a bit of 258 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,770 nostalgia there now in terms of like what that is and, and going 259 00:14:50,780 --> 00:14:52,330 to Finland. There was a there was a 260 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:54,470 difference. The spaces were smaller, but 261 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,270 they were very well contemplated. 262 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,630 More intentional. Yeah, very, very intentional. 263 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,410 And there was an aesthetic that was something that resonated 264 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:04,930 with me. Like what? 265 00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:09,570 I think the use of materials in the exposing materials, like the 266 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:11,930 use of wooden Finland is important. 267 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:18,830 You know, it warms the space. The ritual of sauna, absolutely 268 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,420 amazing, something that was significantly impactful for me 269 00:15:22,430 --> 00:15:24,650 to this day. I am waiting for my kids to get 270 00:15:24,660 --> 00:15:26,320 older so I can put one in the backyard. 271 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,250 Yeah, it's, it's something that for me that, that, that just 272 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:38,660 like really made a lot of sense in life, you know, and I really 273 00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:42,420 enjoyed it while I was in, in Finland and then throughout my 274 00:15:42,430 --> 00:15:44,820 life have, you know, somewhat sought it out to a certain 275 00:15:44,830 --> 00:15:47,300 extent. And, you know, now I live in a, 276 00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:50,080 you know, in a, in a condominium in, in downtown Toronto. 277 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:53,700 And, and it's, it's part of my, it's part of my, my lifestyle 278 00:15:53,710 --> 00:15:56,940 today to this date. Using this on inside. 279 00:15:56,950 --> 00:16:00,160 Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 280 00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:06,410 No, it's, it's definitely drier wet, a wet sauna is preferable, 281 00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:09,010 you know, like that. You can use Lola. 282 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,670 Lola is like a word that we can't translate cause we don't 283 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,270 have it in English. OK. 284 00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:19,070 But the, the act of, you know, putting water onto the stones 285 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:24,700 and then, you know, I think Voss does another like sort of 286 00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:29,830 hitting yourself with some Birch leaves, getting the sort of 287 00:16:30,380 --> 00:16:33,230 menthol out of the leaves on the skin and stuff like that. 288 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,000 That ritual I find, you know, very powerful. 289 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:39,110 Are there places locally that that have that? 290 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:46,380 I think that if you go to some of the, the spas, like the, the 291 00:16:46,390 --> 00:16:48,910 local spas, you know, sort of maybe north of the city and 292 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,280 that, that definitely in terms of the low, low. 293 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,140 And then people will use different techniques in terms 294 00:16:55,150 --> 00:16:59,020 of, you know, bringing out the like you either like wave a 295 00:16:59,030 --> 00:17:03,580 towel or something to, to sort of help stimulate your, you 296 00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:05,359 know, circulation system. Interesting. 297 00:17:05,470 --> 00:17:07,339 Yeah. I love it. 298 00:17:07,430 --> 00:17:12,510 My, my wife up in Muskoka, they had, they had, they, they were 299 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,150 doing this song Sauna on the Lake. 300 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:21,869 So small little transportable sauna unit in Gravenhurst, which 301 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,890 is for those listening Muskoka, about two hours, an hour and a 302 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:26,500 half, two hours north of Toronto. 303 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:29,590 And you'd be able to go into the sauna and then you'd walk out 304 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,730 and you'd be in a bathing suit and you do a cold plunge in the 305 00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:35,010 lake and then back to the sauna and you kind of go back and 306 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:38,860 forth. Yeah, that's like when when when 307 00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:43,430 I was in Finland and being introduced to that, it was like 308 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,110 a spectacular the the Fins do it sans clothes though. 309 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,110 So that was like a little prudish, you know, sort of 310 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,210 Canadian boy had to get over that. 311 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,850 But now no problems that way. Seinfeld, You know, it's 312 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,260 shrinkage. Yeah. 313 00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:03,620 Didn't think I'd be going there today, but like, yeah. 314 00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:06,320 Yeah, you know. When? 315 00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:07,820 When? You, man. 316 00:18:08,810 --> 00:18:11,400 OK, the rating off for this one will go too explicit. 317 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,620 So, so, so you came back and then what you had to do, Did you 318 00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:19,300 know that you were gonna do or did you declare that you wanted 319 00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:22,040 to go into architecture then or was it something that you came 320 00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:23,710 to afterwards? How did that work? 321 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:30,270 Yeah, I think that what I had sort of looking at schools to go 322 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:39,480 to, I had applied to Waterloo and to Queens and McMaster, you 323 00:18:39,490 --> 00:18:43,600 know, Queens McMaster for science and had got acceptance 324 00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:47,020 and, and Waterloo. I had applied for architecture. 325 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:51,760 I didn't get a, didn't get an interview at the time and which 326 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:58,390 was kind of a interesting story, I guess, you know, my mother 327 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,010 being, you know, kind of a very, you know, sort of proactive 328 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:03,530 mother. We didn't. 329 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,490 We didn't talk about what your mother did, what she had her 330 00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:07,770 professional was, or what she did. 331 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,010 My parents are both civil servants. 332 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:12,410 OK, Dad worked for the Federal. Government, yeah. 333 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:15,670 My mom worked at at Niagara College and she OK administrator 334 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,450 for their childcare. OK. 335 00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:21,390 So, you know, and she was she was very, you know, much in my 336 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,250 brother nice corner in terms of us growing up and and supporting 337 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:26,750 us and, you know, sort of pushing us. 338 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,210 So she had talk to my guidance counselor about, you know, why 339 00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:32,450 didn't Craig get, you know, an interview? 340 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:35,470 His average seems like it should have been, you know, and the 341 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,130 guidance counselor did a bit of research and somebody had messed 342 00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:42,530 up and I didn't have all of my courses listed when they were 343 00:19:42,540 --> 00:19:45,920 sent into I think the processing centre for universities that 344 00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:47,520 time was in Guelph or something, right? 345 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,710 So we don't know if it was on the high schools end of it or 346 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,810 like, you know, on the processing, but I didn't have 347 00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:57,610 physics or calculus. And at the time you had to have 348 00:19:57,620 --> 00:20:01,250 that as part of the your average, right, Right. 349 00:20:01,310 --> 00:20:04,550 So. Interestingly enough, I got a 350 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,410 call from the University of Waterloo, and it was from a 351 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,430 professor, a guy by the name of Andrew Banerjee. 352 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,290 And he was a professor in the architecture school, but also 353 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:19,010 worked in the planning school. And Annu spoke to me for 45 354 00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:21,810 minutes. He started the conversation by 355 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:26,850 like, you know, we've got our cohort this year and we kind of 356 00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:30,170 understand that something didn't happen right here. 357 00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:35,100 But he's like, you know, we would like to, you know, offer 358 00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:37,580 you maybe a place in the school of planning. 359 00:20:37,650 --> 00:20:43,310 And I was like, what's planning? So planning became something 360 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,930 that I learned about very quickly from Annie. 361 00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:49,290 And he did like such a good cell job that I by the end of that 362 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:52,580 conversation, I was accepting to go to planning at the 363 00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:54,020 university. Of well, I mean, it's like, 364 00:20:54,030 --> 00:20:58,230 that's how pretty much like 95% of the world learns 365 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,770 architecture, right? Like outside of North America, 366 00:21:01,780 --> 00:21:04,570 like everyone else is studying planning and architecture 367 00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:05,480 together. Yeah. 368 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:07,800 Yeah. Well, this is this is, you know, 369 00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:10,220 this is sort of the beginning of the journey for me, I think in 370 00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:13,910 terms of the the two professions, right. 371 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:22,410 So I had accepted and like Annie was a was an interesting guy. 372 00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:27,470 Like he, he really, you know, so was encouraging during school 373 00:21:28,850 --> 00:21:32,500 and you know, really he he had sort of offered up like, you 374 00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:35,090 know, come to planning for the first year, take like the urban 375 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,550 design studio and stuff and you know, maybe you can do a couple 376 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,200 of lactose with the architects and then reapplied architecture 377 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:42,510 the next year sort of thing, right. 378 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,730 That was kind of is his go, but I ended up having a really great 379 00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:50,750 university experience at Waterloo in planning, right. 380 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:56,080 And I, and I and I, I took the, the full four years there and 381 00:21:56,090 --> 00:22:02,420 then and you and another Prof Mike Elmet and the third Prof 382 00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:05,750 Karen Hammond, suggested that I go on and do masters of 383 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,070 architecture after that. And they didn't have archive 384 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:10,570 masters of architecture at the University of Waterloo at that 385 00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:12,330 point in time. And that's what led me to 386 00:22:12,460 --> 00:22:14,150 Calgary. Now interesting. 387 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,960 And then I did my Masters of Architecture at the Faculty of 388 00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:21,000 Environmental Design in Calgary, which was. 389 00:22:21,070 --> 00:22:22,730 Cool. Also awesome. 390 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,300 Well, I was gonna say, you've just like you seem to keep 391 00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:27,180 finding the North. Yeah. 392 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:32,510 Well, you know, the, the, the Waterloo experience and the, and 393 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,760 the, the, the Calgary experience, we're both, you 394 00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:40,800 know, very, very different, but very, very fulfilling and both 395 00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:46,050 academically and personally and with, with regard to sport, you 396 00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:49,050 know, being close to the mountains and being able to, you 397 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:53,990 know, really enjoy a couple of my passions, which at the time 398 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,430 skiing and climbing, mountain biking, we're we're definitely 399 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,140 top right up there. So Calgary was spectacular on 400 00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:04,080 that end of it. So, well, it's interesting is 401 00:23:04,090 --> 00:23:11,040 like this is this episode's gonna be coming out at the same 402 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:15,090 time? I believe that I am today this 403 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,610 week in PC. Nice. 404 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,640 To do some interviews and spend some time with a couple guys out 405 00:23:23,650 --> 00:23:27,740 NBC, all tied to the idea of going out and hanging out with 406 00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:31,620 some of these people, but and learning and bringing people 407 00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:33,820 together, but also doing some mountain biking. 408 00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:36,620 Nice, nice. I'm jealous. 409 00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:41,660 I can't wait so. Yeah, it was like that, that 410 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:43,990 area, like just, you know, I just. 411 00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:45,610 Yeah. The immersion. 412 00:23:45,620 --> 00:23:48,330 I don't have enough good things to say about that, that that 413 00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:49,450 was. Like, so where were you? 414 00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:51,210 Where were you skiing? Were you saying you were 415 00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:54,990 kicking, Kicking Horse or a band for Sunshine? 416 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,970 Where? You all the all of the above, 417 00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:02,310 Yeah, No, I, I was, I was fortunate enough to sort of get, 418 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:05,450 I was working with the Canadian Ski Patrol when I was there. 419 00:24:05,460 --> 00:24:08,370 So Oh yes. That was like kind of a window 420 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:11,680 into a bunch of different mountains in the area, which is 421 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:16,410 good spent had a my university experience there was awesome 422 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:22,490 because I had a friend who I grew up with in well and like in 423 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:28,330 in in Niagara who had moved out, who had moved out to Calgary. 424 00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:32,140 She moved with a boyfriend who they gone to Queens together and 425 00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:35,330 they basically, you know, finished university, packed a 426 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:37,290 car up and drove out to Calgary, right. 427 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:43,730 And they had a place set up with this, this woman who was, was 428 00:24:43,740 --> 00:24:47,490 absolutely amazing. Her her she was going back to 429 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:49,980 school. Her father had bought her house 430 00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:52,680 and said, like, you know, you have to take care of, you know, 431 00:24:52,690 --> 00:24:55,990 the red yes, and you know, get good roommates and stuff like 432 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,760 that. Make sure that they pay their 433 00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:00,440 rent on time. And you know, if they do, you 434 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:03,240 get the right people. You can have access to one of 435 00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:06,220 our chalets at Panorama, which the family had. 436 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:12,360 So I, I, I got to Calgary and the Calgary thing was a little 437 00:25:12,370 --> 00:25:15,430 weird because I had been accepted to a school in the 438 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,060 states as well to do my masters there. 439 00:25:18,990 --> 00:25:26,640 And I was calling Calgary to actually defer and go and 440 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,020 planning on going to the states. And I got this guy on the, on 441 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:35,220 the phone who was the liaison between the, the faculty and 442 00:25:35,230 --> 00:25:38,410 the, the student body. And this guy, Bill Prajak, he 443 00:25:38,420 --> 00:25:43,810 was like really super nice guy. Calgary, OK. 444 00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:46,850 And, and I was saying to him, OK, well, I, I wanted to defer. 445 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,390 Yeah, I'm gonna go to this other school. 446 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,290 And he's like, well, why? And then like, I don't know if 447 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,860 I'm a pushover or what it is, but another 45 minutes on the 448 00:25:53,870 --> 00:25:56,820 phone with like this guy and he had me convinced to go to 449 00:25:56,830 --> 00:25:58,840 Calgary. So then I called up the other 450 00:25:58,850 --> 00:26:02,140 university and was like, yeah, I'm, I'm deferring you and I'm 451 00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:05,210 going to Calgary, right. And then a week and 1/2 or two 452 00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:11,100 weeks later, I was like on a, on a, on a plane with two bikes, 453 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:17,120 you know, a set of skis and backpack and no place to live. 454 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:24,120 Yes, yes. So they had an introductory, you 455 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:27,870 know, to, to that program, the VDS program, they had a 456 00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:31,160 something at the Calgary Zoo. So we all showed up and went to 457 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:34,160 the zoo as like kind of orientation sort of thing. 458 00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:37,280 And it was like, there's some design shred that we were doing 459 00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:40,820 and we could sleep at the zoo. It was. 460 00:26:40,830 --> 00:26:44,200 So we slept in the zoo for a night or two sort of thing, made 461 00:26:44,210 --> 00:26:48,160 a couple friends and ended up couch surfing for a bit. 462 00:26:48,170 --> 00:26:52,410 And then and then my friend who is moving now from at this point 463 00:26:52,420 --> 00:26:58,600 in time from Queens to to to Calgary. 464 00:26:58,690 --> 00:27:01,180 And at that point in time, I don't even think I had a cell 465 00:27:01,190 --> 00:27:03,080 phone. I don't know it was. 466 00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:04,160 They probably wouldn't have been. 467 00:27:04,170 --> 00:27:06,930 Yeah, maybe. Maybe anyway. 468 00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:08,860 It was this is what, mid mid 90s? 469 00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:11,270 Mid 90s sort of thing. So it might not. 470 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,390 Have I was gonna say, you probably might have got like a 471 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,010 Nokia like in the late 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 472 00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:21,430 So anyhow, I end up through my mom talking to her mom 473 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,110 understand that she's coming out and and that they have a place 474 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:29,360 that they're gonna stay. And if I went and and talked to 475 00:27:29,370 --> 00:27:34,490 this this woman, Patty Smith, that I could that I could, you 476 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:37,190 know, potentially stay there. So I bike over on my mountain 477 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,500 bike and, you know, ring the doorbell and Patty opens the 478 00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:43,450 door and she's like, she's like you're cracking. 479 00:27:43,460 --> 00:27:45,520 I'm like, Yep, she's like you mountain bike. 480 00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:47,560 I'm like, Yep, she's like, you ski. 481 00:27:47,740 --> 00:27:49,400 I'm like, yeah, she's like, you're in. 482 00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:53,120 Interview. Complete interview. 483 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,770 Your portfolio is present. We are good. 484 00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:58,480 Yeah, yeah. So we had a, we had like a 485 00:27:58,490 --> 00:28:04,740 pretty, pretty amazing, you know, four years out in Calgary 486 00:28:04,750 --> 00:28:07,980 and, you know, it's a, it's a long degree like the masters if 487 00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:09,540 you don't have the, the undergraduate. 488 00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:11,720 Yeah. But it was worth, worth the 489 00:28:11,730 --> 00:28:14,330 time. And I met some really good 490 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:18,720 people there, Chris Kapenga from Thomas Brown Architects, who we 491 00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:22,300 work with today. You know, it was a close friend 492 00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:26,490 there and we have a couple other relationships that we've 493 00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:28,800 maintained. Gravity Architecture, Steve 494 00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:34,940 Barnett and MGA out in Calgary or in Kelowna. 495 00:28:35,050 --> 00:28:37,360 Yeah. So, you know, we have, you know, 496 00:28:37,450 --> 00:28:40,320 a good crew that, you know, some of us still keep in contact. 497 00:28:40,330 --> 00:28:42,720 And, and do you ever get together and like, yeah, go 498 00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:46,110 skiing again? Not seeing no that that crew 499 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,780 though we kind of all got together just before Christmas 500 00:28:48,790 --> 00:28:51,260 here in Toronto. We were doing sort of our 501 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:56,160 Christmas party with Studio Deep and you know, we're, we're, we 502 00:28:56,170 --> 00:29:01,070 have a sort of a network of firms that we're trying to do 503 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,680 some, some joint venture with across Canada. 504 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:07,330 And then then obviously Stefanos involved in that too. 505 00:29:07,340 --> 00:29:11,350 So, yeah, we had a, a bit of a gathering before Christmas, 506 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,530 which was nice. It was fun, yeah. 507 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,780 OK. And and you complete this 508 00:29:18,790 --> 00:29:21,890 masters degree four years, is there a Co-op associated with 509 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:23,400 that master? No, no. 510 00:29:23,470 --> 00:29:27,510 No, this is one of the things I guess in terms of like even 511 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,660 going to Waterloo, I didn't do the Co-op stream because I had 512 00:29:30,770 --> 00:29:33,200 had a summer job that kind of carried me all the way through 513 00:29:33,210 --> 00:29:34,180 university. Which was? 514 00:29:34,550 --> 00:29:37,310 I worked a search and rescue for the Canadian Coast Guard. 515 00:29:38,050 --> 00:29:38,760 Yeah. What? 516 00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:42,080 Yeah, It was with the inshore rescue boat program and the 517 00:29:42,090 --> 00:29:45,340 Great Lakes and yeah, it was fantastic. 518 00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:49,710 It was like, I highly recommend it to any young people out there 519 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,040 that are interested in boats and, you know, sort of saving 520 00:29:55,050 --> 00:29:57,540 people. I was. 521 00:29:57,620 --> 00:30:06,660 I was in West Palm Beach in March and I met two US Coast 522 00:30:06,670 --> 00:30:11,340 Guard officers that were there at the same time Trump was 523 00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:12,840 there. And yeah, yeah, you know, they 524 00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:15,090 were, they were surveying. They were, they were surveying 525 00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:18,120 the entire coastline as a part of security while Trump was 526 00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:19,200 there. Marlago. 527 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:23,050 I was asking them, I said what was one of the hardest 528 00:30:23,540 --> 00:30:25,950 challenges you've come across in your professional career? 529 00:30:26,980 --> 00:30:30,150 And they told me this is while I'm waiting for like my take out 530 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,410 of the restaurant, nice. And these guys do the same 531 00:30:33,420 --> 00:30:35,110 thing. And they told me that the 532 00:30:35,180 --> 00:30:40,050 hardest thing that they've ever had to deal with was the size of 533 00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:43,140 the water on the Great Lakes. Ohe, yeah. 534 00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:47,020 And that you couldn't believe that you could get 20 and 30 535 00:30:47,030 --> 00:30:52,320 foot swells on the Great Lakes. And one of the miracles are 536 00:30:52,330 --> 00:30:53,860 miracles. One of the one of the most 537 00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:56,860 impressive things they ever had happened was that there was a 538 00:30:56,870 --> 00:31:01,240 kayaker that was like stuck couldn't get back to where he 539 00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:04,890 was going into EU like to the US because of the size of the 540 00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:07,180 swells. He was being pulled out into the 541 00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:12,660 middle of the lake and they came and with helicopter got him 542 00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:13,940 back. Right, right. 543 00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:18,400 And the the perception that they received from this guy's mom, 544 00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:22,560 when they brought him back, he was like a 22 year old kid. 545 00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:25,480 Yeah. Anyway, I say it because, yeah, 546 00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:30,410 I could not imagine the idea of being out in the middle of 547 00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:32,510 nowhere with water. Yeah, wild. 548 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,000 Yeah, I mean, the Great Lakes is the Great Lakes can be dangerous 549 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:39,790 And and, you know, growing up with my dad as a meteorologist, 550 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,190 you know, we were always very careful of the weather. 551 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,210 And yeah, my parents always had a had a boat on Lake Erie. 552 00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:50,120 So my brother and I, you know, grew up sort of as you know, 553 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,480 beach rats on, on, on Lake Erie and, you know, it, it was 554 00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:57,650 something that my dad was connected into the, into the 555 00:31:57,660 --> 00:32:00,950 Coast Guard through what he did with meteorology. 556 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,950 And he was aware of this program and sort of encouraged me to, 557 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,310 you know, to, to look into it. And yeah, it was a wonderful 558 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,130 program. It was like a, you know, 559 00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:16,270 basically 5 bases, like throughout the Great Lakes. 560 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:22,090 And it's all 50% women, 50% men, all sort of doing university and 561 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:25,350 college. And you're basically trained to. 562 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,350 It's basically 6-6 people for a base, two weeks on, two weeks 563 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,720 off all summer. And yeah, just in some of the 564 00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:40,420 the prettiest, most amazing places in in Ontario. 565 00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:42,500 You know, it was, it was, it was spectacular. 566 00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:46,940 What a what, what an experience from that to also then being on 567 00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:50,060 ski, ski patrol. Yeah, kinda kept me. 568 00:32:50,290 --> 00:32:54,020 Looking you, Craig. Kept me going, you know, it was 569 00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:56,740 a lot of fun. It was it was one of the one of 570 00:32:56,750 --> 00:33:01,340 the jobs as well that sort of tied me to like one of my 571 00:33:01,350 --> 00:33:04,350 favorite places. I think like in terms of if 572 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,580 we're talking like kind of natural settings and yes and 573 00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:10,220 northeastern Georgian Bay where. Why? 574 00:33:10,940 --> 00:33:14,960 Um, you know, the group of seven did a lot of painting up there, 575 00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:18,070 right? And it was something that as a 576 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,820 youth, you know, I sort of, you know, hear what the group of 577 00:33:20,830 --> 00:33:25,760 seven started to, you know, enjoy their their artwork and 578 00:33:25,770 --> 00:33:29,070 then being, you know, sort of in that landscape and really 579 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:35,030 starting to just appreciate like sort of how the colours are just 580 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,400 like absolutely surreal, right? You know, you have the, the, the 581 00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,090 Georgian Bay blue, you know, in terms of the, the water adjacent 582 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:48,810 to, you know, sort of the, the pink granite of like, let's say 583 00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:53,340 the Fox Islands or something. And you know, the bands of, you 584 00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:56,630 know, sort of quartzite or, or Grays running through the, the 585 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,950 pink granite. And then you know, the Moss, you 586 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:03,790 know, with the, the sort of like, you know, frosty green. 587 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,170 And, and then, you know, the, the Georgian Bay trees, you 588 00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:12,909 know, all like sort of, you know, wind bent and, you know, 589 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,600 you look over to the Kush Mountains and you see the core 590 00:34:15,610 --> 00:34:18,159 site, you know, which looks like snow in the middle of summer, 591 00:34:18,170 --> 00:34:22,340 but it's it's not. And, and just the sky, you know, 592 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:28,520 it's just like, absolutely, you know, fantastic, fantastic area. 593 00:34:28,670 --> 00:34:31,460 And it to this day, it's like, you know, I've traveled to, you 594 00:34:31,469 --> 00:34:34,030 know, a lot of places that are really pretty places in the 595 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,340 world. And, and I'd have to say that 596 00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:38,650 that's still my favorite. Yeah. 597 00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:43,250 Huh. Alright, I'm gonna take a second 598 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:45,710 just to absorb all that cause like what of what I've 599 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,630 experienced through your 20s, man. 600 00:34:47,699 --> 00:34:53,070 Yeah, late teens to 20s, Yeah. So, OK, so you so you finish, 601 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:58,700 you finish your architecture degree that you've now pursued 602 00:34:58,710 --> 00:35:03,900 activities at the top of prehistoric mountains and in 603 00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:10,910 your in your off time swam in what is some of the last fresh 604 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,720 water. It was strongholds of the world. 605 00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:15,690 Yeah. Yeah. 606 00:35:15,730 --> 00:35:18,600 So you're both both both plateau, but was it both 607 00:35:18,610 --> 00:35:21,480 plateaus, both, both the geographies? 608 00:35:21,730 --> 00:35:23,060 Yeah. And I don't even know what I'm 609 00:35:23,070 --> 00:35:26,240 gonna say that, but anyhow. And then you, so you finish and 610 00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:28,680 now how do you determine what you're gonna go, where you're 611 00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:30,750 gonna go work? Cause you're in Calgary, 612 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,610 finished this, you've got opportunity, I guess still in 613 00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:35,940 that summer time to be able to go back and do what you wanted 614 00:35:35,950 --> 00:35:40,340 to do and. Yeah, I think at the end of the 615 00:35:40,350 --> 00:35:44,060 sort of the eight years of university, I was like I had in 616 00:35:44,070 --> 00:35:48,320 my mind that I was like gonna go on and maybe do some more like 617 00:35:48,330 --> 00:35:53,620 maybe an M2 type degree. I had, you know, I had T8 a bit 618 00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:57,010 in, in, in both Waterloo and Calgary. 619 00:35:57,060 --> 00:36:02,450 And in Calgary, I worked with John Brown, who's the head of 620 00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:04,900 the School of Architecture there today. 621 00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:09,540 And, you know, I think that we had some discussions about that, 622 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,110 you know, in terms of me, you know, sort of going on. 623 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,590 I decided at that point in time, though, I was going to come back 624 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,150 to, to Ontario. So silly my, my, my late 20s at 625 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,070 that point in time. And I thought, you know, I'm 626 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,620 gonna go back and, and sort of see, you know, what I could do, 627 00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:30,750 you know, just in terms of at least getting some experience, 628 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,690 because I had no experience, right. 629 00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:36,330 And no experience in the, in the, I felt like kind of lacking 630 00:36:36,340 --> 00:36:39,410 on that end of it. So I came back and, you know, 631 00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:41,580 worked for couple of small firms. 632 00:36:41,590 --> 00:36:44,130 One of them actually is Thomas Brown Architects that I worked 633 00:36:44,140 --> 00:36:49,800 with with my friend Chris Kabango and at A at a certain 634 00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:55,300 point from the firm worked in it still works to this day. 635 00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:59,890 They're one of the I think probably have the largest 636 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:06,930 portfolio of EMS and like fire stations like of any, any firm 637 00:37:06,940 --> 00:37:09,690 and maybe Canada definitely in Ontario. 638 00:37:10,030 --> 00:37:16,020 So but they had a residential sort of portfolio as well. 639 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,450 And at the time, you know, the early, early 2000s, you know, 640 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:26,100 the the residential condominium market was starting to starting 641 00:37:26,110 --> 00:37:29,980 to grow. And I left, you know, Thomas 642 00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:34,630 Brown and started up my own thing in 2006. 643 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,670 So how long have you worked at Thomas Brown? 644 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:42,300 At that point in time, probably two to three years, I'd, I'd got 645 00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:45,930 my registration, yeah. And then just decided, you know, 646 00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:49,360 at the time it was, it was sort of the right decision for me to, 647 00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:54,920 to, to move on. I had Chris stayed and, and to 648 00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:58,440 this day he, you know, he, he runs Thomas Brown company now. 649 00:37:58,730 --> 00:38:02,780 And you know, we, we we stayed, you know, very close friends 650 00:38:02,790 --> 00:38:05,610 and, and we're joint venturing on a number of projects right 651 00:38:05,620 --> 00:38:09,860 now given the housing market, you know, we are sort of in a 652 00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:15,130 bit of a, a pivot stance more towards the, the public work. 653 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:20,410 But yeah, the residential play worked well for him because when 654 00:38:20,420 --> 00:38:22,850 I, when I got back and I was going through the registration 655 00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:25,350 for architecture, I was like, well, you know, I did this 656 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,690 planning degree and the School of Environmental Studies at 657 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:34,310 Waterloo was actually interdisciplinary and had at the 658 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,790 time, right. It had basically environmental 659 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,560 science, geography, planning and architecture under the same 660 00:38:43,570 --> 00:38:45,460 roof. And as we know, like 661 00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:48,780 architecture and Waterloo has moved down to Cambridge now. 662 00:38:48,850 --> 00:38:52,850 And, you know, it was, it was interesting because I think at 663 00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:57,250 at that point, you know, the closeness of the, of the, the 664 00:38:57,260 --> 00:39:01,950 disciplines sort of in that, in that faculty was, was something 665 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,340 that, you know, I think impacted me anyway. 666 00:39:04,530 --> 00:39:08,180 And when I moved to Calgary, Calgary was a school of 667 00:39:08,190 --> 00:39:12,240 environmental design that started in the 70s and was very 668 00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:15,150 much around this interdisciplinary as masters. 669 00:39:15,250 --> 00:39:18,900 There's no undergraduate. So it was a a masters faculty 670 00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:25,030 and it had a kind of a power to it in terms of the 671 00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:28,470 interdisciplinary aspect that really, you know, sort of 672 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,970 resonated with me, right. We're working there with 673 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:35,050 planning architecture, interior, not interior design, industrial 674 00:39:35,060 --> 00:39:38,070 design and environmental science. 675 00:39:38,420 --> 00:39:41,530 So and and The thing is like on the architectural end of it, 676 00:39:41,540 --> 00:39:44,050 because it's a four year degree, you had all these people coming 677 00:39:44,060 --> 00:39:48,020 in without undergrads and right, excuse me, an architecture. 678 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,610 So the conversations were amazing. 679 00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:54,010 And that's what I think that the school was about. 680 00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:58,080 It was about, you know, really bringing together people, you 681 00:39:58,090 --> 00:40:01,890 know, from varied backgrounds and sort of developing a rich 682 00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:06,270 conversation around environmental design and then, 683 00:40:06,340 --> 00:40:08,370 you know, architecture planning, right? 684 00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:12,440 And so that to me like sort of coming back really. 685 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,640 I think it was an important, an important part. 686 00:40:17,650 --> 00:40:20,000 And there's something in me that, you know, was like, OK, 687 00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:23,510 I'm not just gonna get my architectural, my OA. 688 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,780 I'm gonna, you know, get my RP as well. 689 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,930 So I, I went through the process and, and managed to, to obtain 690 00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:36,960 both and then had the goal to like start a start a company. 691 00:40:36,970 --> 00:40:40,650 So that was by default. It was, it was Craig four days 692 00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:44,690 architect at first, which then became KPFA because sort of the 693 00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:47,860 abbreviation sort of happened with the clients. 694 00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:48,950 It's a mouthful. Yeah. 695 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,980 Well, that and also, I mean, if you look, if you look at the 696 00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:55,000 overall way in which a lot of practices run, I think there's 697 00:40:55,010 --> 00:40:57,420 an importance with the concept of legacy. 698 00:40:57,730 --> 00:41:00,340 You know, if you want to be able to at some point hand something 699 00:41:00,350 --> 00:41:06,080 over and do some form of a, I can. 700 00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:10,230 I can't think of the term. That's terrible addition. 701 00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:12,470 You gotta give me a second. I think of the term. 702 00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:17,670 Succession. Thank you. 703 00:41:17,740 --> 00:41:19,090 Oh, yeah. Come back to Zishan. 704 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:21,010 I'm gonna come back. Ready. 321. 705 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,440 If you're looking at the firm and you wanted to have some form 706 00:41:23,450 --> 00:41:26,150 of succession planning, then like yeah, KFC works. 707 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,850 If you hand over Craig Ford's architecture, someone else might 708 00:41:29,860 --> 00:41:34,040 not wanna necessarily have then your name on a studio that they 709 00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:36,260 run. Yeah, well, hence hence our are 710 00:41:36,270 --> 00:41:37,460 rebranding that we'll get. To. 711 00:41:37,470 --> 00:41:39,410 Oh yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, fair 712 00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:40,740 enough. OK. 713 00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:44,630 Very good point, very good. Point So what did what did it? 714 00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:47,300 A couple actually. Let me ask the first question. 715 00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:51,760 Had you had the intention when you got your license that you 716 00:41:51,770 --> 00:41:53,040 wanted to start your own practice? 717 00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:58,530 Or was it a byproduct of now I've got my license? 718 00:41:58,580 --> 00:42:03,090 I think go try this or you're going into it saying like, I'm 719 00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:04,260 gonna learn what I can eventually. 720 00:42:04,270 --> 00:42:05,550 I just have to go and do my own thing. 721 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:13,210 Um, I think for me, like it was important sort of, you know, 722 00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:16,710 coming back to Ontario, I thought that and to Toronto in 723 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:19,930 particular, you know, if I was going to get the experience and 724 00:42:19,940 --> 00:42:23,880 like try to go out there and, you know, really understand what 725 00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:28,720 it means to, to, to be an architect and to run a firm. 726 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,230 You know, I, I kind of had to start my own thing and, and 727 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:36,430 struggle with that. Like and and and actually, you 728 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,510 know, understand the toil. And believe me, I understand the 729 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,410 toil. So what? 730 00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:44,640 So what did that look like initially? 731 00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:48,050 You know, so you go and you, you know, go and you incorporate, 732 00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:50,180 you figure out getting your insurance done. 733 00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:53,810 Are you working from, you know, at this point, is it home? 734 00:42:53,820 --> 00:42:55,250 Isn't it a year? Is it a condo? 735 00:42:55,260 --> 00:42:57,570 Is an apartment? Is it parents place? 736 00:42:57,580 --> 00:43:01,030 Like how are you starting out? And what are some of the first 737 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,170 first projects look like when you were trying to? 738 00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:05,750 I've actually never asked someone this question. 739 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,110 I'm gonna ask you this question. How did you establish what your 740 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,380 fees would look like? Yeah, well, I think I had a, a, 741 00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:15,780 a bit of a, a bit of a head start on that just because I'd 742 00:43:15,790 --> 00:43:17,280 been with Thomas Brown. Yep. 743 00:43:17,340 --> 00:43:23,490 And and now it's TBA, right. And, and we, you know, I think 744 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:28,390 that I, I started to work into a position there where I, I was 745 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,180 like, sort of, I was involved with like the business aspect of 746 00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:35,500 it to a certain extent, right, You know, and, and that was 747 00:43:35,770 --> 00:43:37,790 something that I was interested in. 748 00:43:38,970 --> 00:43:42,940 And the residential clients that we had, like a lot of them were 749 00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:46,080 sort of encouraging me, right. There was some that we, we 750 00:43:46,090 --> 00:43:48,710 worked with that our clients to this day. 751 00:43:49,110 --> 00:43:51,820 So there were people that I, I had developed a relationship 752 00:43:51,830 --> 00:43:57,020 with and, you know, they were very supportive. 753 00:43:57,170 --> 00:44:01,340 So there was a transition transition there that I had that 754 00:44:01,350 --> 00:44:05,070 maybe was very fortunate. And a lot of, you know, people 755 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,740 are starting firms maybe don't have that basis because these 756 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:11,480 were buildings that are, you know, sizeable contracts, right? 757 00:44:11,490 --> 00:44:14,800 Like they're, they're larger buildings where, you know, at 758 00:44:14,810 --> 00:44:19,060 that point in time, you know, mid rise, you know, sort of in 759 00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:24,380 that 100 to 150 unit scale, you know, mixed-use, commercial 760 00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:27,300 residential. So, you know, I think it was it 761 00:44:27,310 --> 00:44:29,580 was a nice transition. The thing that worked well for 762 00:44:29,590 --> 00:44:33,280 me too is that the planning is a bit of a, you know, from a 763 00:44:33,290 --> 00:44:37,290 business model it works as a, as a bit of a hook, right. 764 00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,710 You know, we get in and we do the land entitlements and at 765 00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:42,990 that point in time sort of understanding, you know, 766 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,750 official plan amendment, you know, rezoning site plan and 767 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,320 certainly taking the projects through. 768 00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:50,640 But I wasn't just focused completely on that right. 769 00:44:50,650 --> 00:44:53,240 You know, we had worked for, you know, quite a bit of work for 770 00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:56,860 city of Toronto in terms of EMS and fire still, you know, some 771 00:44:56,870 --> 00:45:00,050 of the smaller projects. I didn't want to really compete, 772 00:45:00,060 --> 00:45:03,380 you know, with Chris and and crew too much. 773 00:45:03,610 --> 00:45:07,780 And I, I moved the firm to where I was living at the time, which 774 00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:13,720 was some lofts at Leslieville, OK, the Loblaws, awesome 775 00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:17,420 building filled with photographers and there I think 776 00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:21,210 there was a planning firm in there at one point in time. 777 00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:26,460 The Big Larry Group was in there and then people lived in there 778 00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:28,090 too. It was, it was like a so we 779 00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:31,770 lived there and then I, I had another suite that we took on as 780 00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:34,270 a, another loft. We took on as a as an. 781 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,380 Office space and and when you started it, did you start it and 782 00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:40,830 it was just you or did you start it and already had some projects 783 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,750 and you knew so you started it and you had other employees off 784 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,500 the bat? Yeah, I hired three employees 785 00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:50,490 like right off the bat and. To do what? 786 00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:52,510 What were What were the? Do you remember the roles? 787 00:45:52,590 --> 00:45:57,260 Yeah, they were, they were basically technologists, OK. 788 00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:03,450 I had an intern architect and then to two technologists and 789 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,110 yeah, it was, it was good. Like, I mean, it was, it was 790 00:46:07,180 --> 00:46:11,920 small, kind of nimble, you know, I think we did a, you know, a 791 00:46:11,930 --> 00:46:14,270 reasonable job in terms of getting things going. 792 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,280 A lot of these projects weren't like, you know, heavy on the 793 00:46:18,290 --> 00:46:21,810 design end of it, which was something that, you know, we've 794 00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:25,790 been incrementally working towards like overtime. 795 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,350 And now we work with, you know, firms like Elastico Farm. 796 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,230 So, you know, we have, you know, you know, gradually sort of 797 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:39,070 increased that element of our of of of the firm. 798 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,820 Hmm. You know, I think that the, the 799 00:46:43,830 --> 00:46:46,240 beginning, you know, is difficult, I think for any firm, 800 00:46:46,310 --> 00:46:49,960 you know, just in terms of, you know, keeping everything going, 801 00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:52,250 trying to understand the business, trying to understand 802 00:46:52,260 --> 00:46:58,160 the risk mitigation that essentially is our job as 803 00:46:58,170 --> 00:46:59,880 architects. You're smiling right now. 804 00:47:00,030 --> 00:47:02,410 What would that be? What define some of the risk 805 00:47:02,420 --> 00:47:04,720 mitigation? Well, I think that there is 806 00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:08,540 there's definitely you know, you're going out and when when 807 00:47:08,590 --> 00:47:14,350 when I can remember being in the in the OA intern you stuff to go 808 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,820 for it. Maybe still do I, I don't know. 809 00:47:16,830 --> 00:47:24,290 You had to go for to the OA building for a course in your 810 00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:29,560 internship that, you know, the one that they take you into with 811 00:47:29,570 --> 00:47:34,600 the productivity people and they're like, you know, take a 812 00:47:34,610 --> 00:47:37,350 look at the person to the right, take a look at the person to the 813 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:38,760 left. Within the first few years of 814 00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:42,340 practice, you know, 2 of you will be sued, you know, sort of 815 00:47:42,350 --> 00:47:44,320 thing. Maybe not that might be a bit of 816 00:47:44,330 --> 00:47:47,720 an exaggeration, but I think that the the potential litigious 817 00:47:47,730 --> 00:47:52,390 aspect of of of of architecture, yes, is definitely something 818 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:54,730 that you have to be, you know, aware of. 819 00:47:54,740 --> 00:48:00,250 And I think as any young architect is, is looking at that 820 00:48:00,260 --> 00:48:03,830 and and you know, sort of it's always, it's always in your. 821 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,050 Mind always thought. Yeah, contemplation. 822 00:48:06,740 --> 00:48:08,200 Especially when you're dealing with something like 823 00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:10,390 condominiums, right? Like is condominiums I think 824 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,410 have a a particular, you know, so risk, right, that's 825 00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:18,690 multiplied by the fact that, you know, you have 100 hundred 826 00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:21,490 units, you've got 100 lawyers potentially. 827 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,070 Right, not include not including the. 828 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,590 Board. Yeah, exactly. 829 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,160 Yeah, that's a very good .100 and. 830 00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:31,030 One right and and and the developer, right. 831 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:37,720 And then, yeah, I mean, gosh, when you really stop and think 832 00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:41,570 about what the, what the, the, the physical practice of 833 00:48:41,580 --> 00:48:45,920 architecture is and the associated risk with what that 834 00:48:47,370 --> 00:48:50,840 can be as a profession, it is wild. 835 00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:52,680 Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. 836 00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:59,630 You know, so, so how do how did the practice evolve from there 837 00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:05,510 to what it kind of has become today in terms of scales of 838 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:11,330 projects, location, service, offering, staffing? 839 00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:15,280 How has it changed? Yeah, we're still, I would say 840 00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:18,000 like a, you know, kind of boutique scale firm. 841 00:49:18,010 --> 00:49:26,110 Like we're 21 people right now. The firm we have like evolved 842 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,000 over the last few years. I think that something that was 843 00:49:29,070 --> 00:49:32,000 was has been important to me, as I mentioned beforehand, in terms 844 00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:35,020 of the interdisciplinary aspect of the schools that I went to 845 00:49:35,140 --> 00:49:42,440 and and sort of how, you know, we've taken a bit of a focus on 846 00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:46,920 like where architecture and planning don't quite meet up. 847 00:49:47,370 --> 00:49:51,580 There's been, we refer to it as a gap, maybe the missing middle 848 00:49:51,590 --> 00:49:57,070 in terms of the professions. Yeah, there's a there's friction 849 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,130 at some level. There's friction that's good 850 00:50:00,140 --> 00:50:01,370 friction. There's friction that's bad 851 00:50:01,380 --> 00:50:05,130 friction. I think that like sometimes we 852 00:50:05,140 --> 00:50:09,170 find that there's the there's a bit of bad, bad friction, good 853 00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:12,730 architecture, a lot of time bumps up against policy and 854 00:50:12,740 --> 00:50:17,630 planning that can be seen seen as like detrimental to the 855 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,530 architecture at some level. I think that on the other hand, 856 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:27,880 you know, sort of planning, good planning can sometimes result in 857 00:50:27,890 --> 00:50:32,580 bad architecture, you know, and it's, it's, it's something where 858 00:50:32,770 --> 00:50:35,920 in Europe they, they take a bit of a different stance. 859 00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:38,360 There is something called spatial planning that does 860 00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:40,980 actually sit between architecture and planning. 861 00:50:41,250 --> 00:50:43,080 And there's spatial planners, right? 862 00:50:43,090 --> 00:50:45,090 You know, and, and a lot of the time they're people that are 863 00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:48,680 trained as other planners that sort of take on that role or 864 00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:51,050 architects maybe that roll into that role. 865 00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:57,680 And within the firm we do have actually spatial planner from 866 00:50:57,690 --> 00:51:03,110 Europe. This gentleman best love to 867 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,130 Minsky, who is a PhD student just finishing off actually in 868 00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:13,970 Stuttgart and he's a he's been somebody that's sort of I think 869 00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:18,750 over the last couple of years helped me kind of crystallized 870 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:25,670 like sort of where where we sit and start to really plot like 871 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,420 more of a. I think a trajectory along these 872 00:51:30,430 --> 00:51:36,270 lines where, you know, we do feel that we occupy that space 873 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,920 and, and our, I think our intention is to try and, and, 874 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,850 and help breakdown the silos that sort of exists there. 875 00:51:46,860 --> 00:51:51,110 You know, I've had a couple very interesting events over the last 876 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:56,620 actually two weeks. One was with the OPI at a 877 00:51:56,660 --> 00:52:05,030 conference called Connective and it's was I think 40 or 45 878 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:10,350 planners from across Ontario who came together and talked about 879 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,390 the planning profession and the direction. 880 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:18,970 And, you know, one of the, the points that was I think talked 881 00:52:18,980 --> 00:52:23,550 about a lot was this siloed aspect between the, between the 882 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:28,170 professions and how we can encourage dialogue to sort of, 883 00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:30,480 you know, bring about change. And there were a few of us there 884 00:52:30,490 --> 00:52:34,230 that, you know, had a foot in both worlds, either architecture 885 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:39,140 and and planning or urban design and planning and landscape and 886 00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:41,500 planning. And I think that that that 887 00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:45,260 really resonated throughout the room in terms of this, this want 888 00:52:45,350 --> 00:52:49,320 from the planning side in particular, to have a better 889 00:52:49,330 --> 00:52:54,680 conversation, a better dialogue with our architectural partners 890 00:52:55,110 --> 00:52:59,970 to really, because we all kind of want the same thing. 891 00:52:59,980 --> 00:53:01,970 We all want, you know, really good build form. 892 00:53:01,980 --> 00:53:05,410 But, you know, sometimes there we get, we get in our own way to 893 00:53:05,420 --> 00:53:09,510 a certain extent, right. So I think that that was like a, 894 00:53:09,570 --> 00:53:15,210 a really great sort of day in a day and a half, I guess or two 895 00:53:15,220 --> 00:53:19,910 day, 2 day discussion. And then last week we 896 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:24,190 facilitated with the University of Waterloo something called the 897 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,990 Spring School and it was with a PhD student from school planning 898 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,430 all of our frame. And we brought together our 899 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:39,170 architectural students, planning students, undergraduate masters, 900 00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:42,430 PhD students at the School of Planning. 901 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:46,800 And basically in the spring school, we, we discussed spatial 902 00:53:46,810 --> 00:53:50,160 planning and had a five day project where we had partners 903 00:53:50,170 --> 00:53:55,590 from the city of Waterloo. We identified a site which was 904 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,870 actually University Ave. So you've ever been to to 905 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,670 Waterloo, you know, where Conestoga College, Laurie and, 906 00:54:01,740 --> 00:54:04,670 and Waterloo said that was the site and sort of, you know, 907 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:11,700 revisioning University Ave. and Waterloo, and it was like one of 908 00:54:11,710 --> 00:54:15,200 the more powerful, you know, sort of I'd say teaching 909 00:54:15,210 --> 00:54:17,310 education experiences I've ever had. 910 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,590 The students were absolutely amazing. 911 00:54:19,850 --> 00:54:25,740 They were kind to each other. It was, it was, it was like one 912 00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:29,990 of those inspiring events in your life where you're just 913 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,210 like, you know, so much hope, so much positivity. 914 00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:39,610 And the students were, were extremely grateful and just the, 915 00:54:39,620 --> 00:54:44,240 the participatory aspect of it. And like, you couldn't even tell 916 00:54:44,250 --> 00:54:46,000 who was an architect and who was a planner. 917 00:54:46,010 --> 00:54:48,890 Like it was, it was, it was wonderful. 918 00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:52,810 You know, we had some special guests that came through the, 919 00:54:52,860 --> 00:54:55,710 through the week. We had support from other firms. 920 00:54:55,720 --> 00:55:01,420 Dillon Consulting was a supporter in terms of creating 921 00:55:01,430 --> 00:55:06,290 and and financially. We had Stefano Piatti from from 922 00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:08,720 Italy who came in and made a guest appearance on the 923 00:55:08,730 --> 00:55:13,060 Wednesday and worked in terms of visioning with students and it 924 00:55:13,070 --> 00:55:16,380 was just a probably missing people too. 925 00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:19,220 But if I if I. Miss you non intentional. 926 00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:21,500 Not intentional, but. It's a stream of consciousness, 927 00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:25,290 don't be offended. Yeah, but it was it was it was 928 00:55:25,350 --> 00:55:28,780 it was it was it was sort of it felt really, really good. 929 00:55:28,790 --> 00:55:30,600 Vlad. Vlad in my office and Oliver 930 00:55:30,610 --> 00:55:32,980 were the two that did the heavy lifting on and and I 931 00:55:32,990 --> 00:55:35,450 participated throughout the week. 932 00:55:35,630 --> 00:55:38,620 You know, we had good support from the school of planning. 933 00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:42,560 We mark Seasons, who's the head of school planning. 934 00:55:42,570 --> 00:55:46,080 There was was there many days. And so it was just, it was a 935 00:55:46,090 --> 00:55:51,200 really, really, you know, great, great spring school. 936 00:55:51,210 --> 00:55:53,440 And I was very happy to be part of that. 937 00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:56,680 Yeah, yeah. So you get to see the direction 938 00:55:56,690 --> 00:55:59,440 in which things are gonna be moving with the new class of 939 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:02,670 potential graduates and others that will be upcoming in the way 940 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,680 that they're seeing what opportunities lie between the 941 00:56:06,690 --> 00:56:12,840 two streams of professionalism, professionalism, professional, 942 00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:17,810 professional just once. Thank you discipline that I 943 00:56:17,820 --> 00:56:19,080 couldn't get there. It's all good. 944 00:56:19,090 --> 00:56:20,310 It's. All, I appreciate you. 945 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,120 I appreciate you too. Yeah. 946 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,340 So it's because it's interesting, right? 947 00:56:26,350 --> 00:56:29,810 Because you don't really know how a profession is going to 948 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,750 evolve after you've been in it for a while. 949 00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:37,470 So to see that the students are there and are and are working 950 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,190 together, um, it's got to be rewarding. 951 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:46,120 It is and it, it kind of reaffirms sort of where, you 952 00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:50,730 know, where, where cafe and now, now Studio Deep is. 953 00:56:50,740 --> 00:56:53,400 It has evolved and is evolving too, right? 954 00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:56,890 You know, and I think I have this conversation with other 955 00:56:56,900 --> 00:57:01,770 architects and planners and in landscape architects. 956 00:57:01,780 --> 00:57:05,440 And I think that there's a, there is this kind of want, I 957 00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:08,370 think to break down the silos and really have a, you know, 958 00:57:08,380 --> 00:57:11,370 sort of good working relationships. 959 00:57:11,380 --> 00:57:14,820 And, you know, we do on a lot of our projects have like really 960 00:57:14,830 --> 00:57:17,130 good working relationships. And we work with other planners, 961 00:57:17,140 --> 00:57:19,040 we work with other architects. We're always working with 962 00:57:19,050 --> 00:57:22,430 landscape architects. We work with large engineering 963 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,150 teams, especially on the larger projects where, you know, there 964 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,000 can be at the front end of these projects. 965 00:57:28,010 --> 00:57:32,190 You know, you know, a team of, let's say 10 or 11 consultants 966 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,670 that are, that are all working together on the, you know, 967 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,040 official plan amendment, rezoning site plan. 968 00:57:38,050 --> 00:57:40,990 And then we spin it into the architectural and you know, we 969 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,920 have the, the, you know, the usual crew sort of thing in 970 00:57:43,930 --> 00:57:45,470 terms of mechanical, electrical, structural. 971 00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:53,880 But it's, it's something where can we, can we sort of better 972 00:57:53,890 --> 00:57:57,360 the process and, and, you know, better the projects, the 973 00:57:57,370 --> 00:58:03,040 outcomes so that we're all more somewhat satisfied at the end by 974 00:58:03,050 --> 00:58:07,470 really having, you know, occupying that space. 975 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,450 Is, is, is difficult because I think there is like an ownership 976 00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:14,390 aspect to it, right. And in Canada, spatial planning 977 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,130 maybe isn't the same as it is in Europe. 978 00:58:16,140 --> 00:58:19,670 It's, you know, evolved sort of within a different context. 979 00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:25,800 But it's something that I think it can be, there can be room for 980 00:58:25,810 --> 00:58:29,610 spatial planning in Canada. And it, it, it, it may be a 981 00:58:29,620 --> 00:58:33,030 different, different way of sort of bringing it about, but I 982 00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,810 think both architects and planners have a role to play 983 00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:39,180 there. And specifically in terms of, of 984 00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:43,980 getting to, to this idea of it's a, it's a, it's a form of 985 00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:47,620 systems thinking and it's not mired in policy and it informs 986 00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:49,820 architecture. And that's where we really, 987 00:58:49,870 --> 00:58:52,990 really want to concentrate in Studio Deep. 988 00:58:53,350 --> 00:58:56,990 OK. So talk about the transition of 989 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,980 the business and why there's a change in name and what that's 990 00:59:01,070 --> 00:59:05,990 what that's done with the trajectory of the business. 991 00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:11,360 Yeah, I think you kind of nailed it on the the head earlier in 992 00:59:11,370 --> 00:59:13,800 the conversation. I think that, you know, you 993 00:59:13,810 --> 00:59:17,380 start off a firm and, you know, you're hanging up a shingle and 994 00:59:17,390 --> 00:59:21,670 it's like Craig 40s architect. And then that becomes something 995 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:27,730 that, you know, evolves in the cafe was sort of, you know, the 996 00:59:27,740 --> 00:59:30,100 evolution at some level, but it didn't really. 997 00:59:30,110 --> 00:59:31,660 Have the first phase. Yeah, it didn't. 998 00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:34,420 It doesn't have an identity. And I think it's something where 999 00:59:34,510 --> 00:59:40,000 the youth today or maybe the youth forever, you know, you 1000 00:59:40,010 --> 00:59:43,640 look at a firm and and you know, it's got a number of initials on 1001 00:59:43,650 --> 00:59:45,900 it. And sure, it pays homage to the 1002 00:59:45,910 --> 00:59:49,780 people that started the firm, but we felt, I think 1003 00:59:49,830 --> 00:59:54,330 collectively that, you know, putting putting our effort into 1004 00:59:54,340 --> 00:59:59,780 something that could be a brand that that would resonate, you 1005 00:59:59,790 --> 01:00:04,690 know, I think it would be. Would be positive and and so far 1006 01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:06,630 it has been it's. Been very and so how did you 1007 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,510 come to the, to the, to the name? 1008 01:00:10,940 --> 01:00:19,160 So in, in my, my masters, I, we did a final, the final thesis 1009 01:00:19,170 --> 01:00:21,390 type project. Yeah, masters design project. 1010 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,940 And mine was termed deep architecture. 1011 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,550 So sorry, was what it was called deep architecture, deep 1012 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,510 architecture. So this is a sort of full circle 1013 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,320 thing for me. Yeah, I have a, I have an idea 1014 01:00:32,330 --> 01:00:35,080 for a couple other full circle things that I've been holding on 1015 01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:36,840 to and we'll get to and as we get through this. 1016 01:00:36,850 --> 01:00:40,320 But OK, so, so then describe that. 1017 01:00:40,330 --> 01:00:46,310 So is it is studio, Studio Deep? Is it, is it 1 entity or how do 1018 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,640 you and, and I don't mean to get into like the whole breakdown of 1019 01:00:49,650 --> 01:00:53,550 like how do you structure your financial and all that other 1020 01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:57,590 stuff, but it's more so like, are there, are there divisions 1021 01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,140 of this? Yeah. 1022 01:00:59,150 --> 01:01:02,500 So what we've we've sort of you know, like structurally from a 1023 01:01:02,510 --> 01:01:07,820 business perspective, we do have like a, a, an architecture firm, 1024 01:01:07,830 --> 01:01:10,820 a planning firm, yeah. And then we have something that 1025 01:01:10,830 --> 01:01:14,360 we call the deep Design Lab is where we're doing serve some of 1026 01:01:14,370 --> 01:01:16,440 our more, let's say experimental stuff. 1027 01:01:16,450 --> 01:01:20,570 Yeah. Do you know some printing using 1028 01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:28,400 techniques with dissolving? Sort of medium and concrete like 1029 01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:34,200 we print actually what we cast, let's say in concrete using 1030 01:01:34,210 --> 01:01:36,290 these these sort of printing techniques. 1031 01:01:36,300 --> 01:01:42,870 One of my staff, Max Comma Shenko, who's a graduate of MU, 1032 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:50,990 formerly Ryerson. Yep, He is very passionate about 1033 01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,950 these types of, you know, innovative ways in which to 1034 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,010 print. He's actually worked also with 1035 01:01:57,020 --> 01:02:03,500 Stefano Piatti and Elastico Farm to sort of and still some of 1036 01:02:03,510 --> 01:02:08,900 his, his knowledge and his, his, his experimentation into the, 1037 01:02:08,910 --> 01:02:12,520 into their firm and, and their they're using actually some of 1038 01:02:12,530 --> 01:02:16,120 the printing techniques and in some of their, their important 1039 01:02:16,130 --> 01:02:18,900 projects where they're going to be showing. 1040 01:02:19,090 --> 01:02:21,860 I think they had a, they had something in Venice. 1041 01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:27,810 I can't remember the name of the the event, but was a month or 1042 01:02:27,820 --> 01:02:29,450 two ago. And then they have another 1043 01:02:29,580 --> 01:02:32,910 important showing that they're, they're forming some models and 1044 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,290 using these techniques in Rome and in a month or two. 1045 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,430 So, you know, we kind of we also like are interested in in 1046 01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,280 materials research. We're working with the the 1047 01:02:46,290 --> 01:02:50,130 Toronto Toronto bio build collective, which is a number of 1048 01:02:50,140 --> 01:02:53,530 firms in, in Toronto, larger firms. 1049 01:02:53,820 --> 01:02:57,700 We're kind of the the small potatoes firm that's involved, 1050 01:02:57,710 --> 01:03:02,140 but we we really appreciate the, the comradeship that we've had, 1051 01:03:02,210 --> 01:03:08,610 you know, with, you know, the lakes of KPMB and SVN, not 1052 01:03:08,620 --> 01:03:14,070 formally SVM MGMA is part of it dialogue. 1053 01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:18,680 So, you know, some significant firms in Toronto, hmm. 1054 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,480 And that, that initiative is a very interesting initiative 1055 01:03:22,490 --> 01:03:25,430 because it's trying to bring biomaterials to the forefront 1056 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,890 and create a dialogue around them collectively so that we 1057 01:03:30,900 --> 01:03:35,970 can, you know, really move the needle in terms of using 1058 01:03:35,980 --> 01:03:39,690 biomaterials and buildings a little easier than each firm 1059 01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:42,230 like sort of kind of working on a project and, you know, making 1060 01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:46,850 a bit of, a bit of noise. But together, I think that we, 1061 01:03:46,930 --> 01:03:51,330 we have, we have a pretty interesting, interesting group 1062 01:03:51,340 --> 01:03:58,070 and great, great mandate to, to really push biomaterials into 1063 01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:59,840 the forefront. So we're going to be having an 1064 01:03:59,850 --> 01:04:06,300 exhibition in, in July that will be at TU. 1065 01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:08,580 OK. So we're we're sort of working 1066 01:04:08,590 --> 01:04:12,300 toward toward that right now and we're building a bunch of wall 1067 01:04:12,310 --> 01:04:14,610 assemblies that are gonna be part of this exhibition. 1068 01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,030 And the work is like, it sounds technical in terms of being wall 1069 01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:22,150 sembly is they're kind of 1 to 1, you know, mockups and 1070 01:04:22,900 --> 01:04:25,670 something that you would, you know, see being done in school. 1071 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,680 But each of these firms is, is doing it and we're getting 1072 01:04:28,690 --> 01:04:32,350 support from our industry partners who are, you know, 1073 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,950 provide gratefully providing some of the materials like 1074 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,660 element 5 CLT is. Yeah, they're they're sort of 1075 01:04:37,670 --> 01:04:42,070 working with us on ours and and then some of the other, you 1076 01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,340 know, ours has a hemp create sort of aspect. 1077 01:04:44,350 --> 01:04:50,520 So we're doing some composite wall assembly and, and it's a, 1078 01:04:50,530 --> 01:04:53,040 it's a pretty, it's a very interesting project. 1079 01:04:53,050 --> 01:04:55,930 We have a bunch of volunteers from a bunch of the universities 1080 01:04:55,940 --> 01:04:57,450 that are supporting all the teams. 1081 01:04:57,460 --> 01:05:00,000 So it's bringing, you know, these volunteers that are 1082 01:05:00,010 --> 01:05:02,640 working and you know, they're, they're getting exposure to the 1083 01:05:02,650 --> 01:05:04,840 firms, getting exposure to practice. 1084 01:05:04,850 --> 01:05:08,400 So it's, you know, we're, we're pretty passionate about that one 1085 01:05:08,410 --> 01:05:09,840 too. It's great. 1086 01:05:09,930 --> 01:05:13,260 And in terms of projects, I mean talk a little bit about like 1087 01:05:13,270 --> 01:05:16,540 skills of project because I know not everything is directly in 1088 01:05:16,550 --> 01:05:18,440 Toronto. I know some of it's beyond 1089 01:05:18,450 --> 01:05:22,850 Toronto and I know that it's not necessarily a condo and a 1090 01:05:22,860 --> 01:05:26,370 single, a single family residential like you have a vast 1091 01:05:26,380 --> 01:05:29,710 array of projects. Yeah, we, we sort of, yeah. 1092 01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:35,270 We we kind of go from, you know, maybe like even, you know, sort 1093 01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,040 of home renovations. Yeah. 1094 01:05:37,050 --> 01:05:41,150 You know, we have like a like a small building sort of division 1095 01:05:41,230 --> 01:05:44,030 that's headed up by Julian Robillard in the office. 1096 01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:50,810 Yeah, he, you know has done, we've done work Portugal and and 1097 01:05:50,820 --> 01:05:58,410 South Africa and then here in, in Toronto we have affiliations 1098 01:05:58,420 --> 01:06:02,170 obviously with Stefano and Elastico Farm and you know 1099 01:06:02,220 --> 01:06:06,110 literally days with Walden, you know that we're working on some 1100 01:06:06,180 --> 01:06:08,560 I think important residential projects. 1101 01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,600 Yeah. That are, that are pushing, I 1102 01:06:11,610 --> 01:06:14,570 think the pushing the envelope a little bit. 1103 01:06:14,580 --> 01:06:18,940 Like in terms of, you know, I think Stefano was a, he's a, 1104 01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:23,220 he's a, he's good at challenging, you know, projects 1105 01:06:23,230 --> 01:06:26,020 and, and really, you know, works well with clients. 1106 01:06:26,030 --> 01:06:28,880 And we have, you know, a few very good clients that we're 1107 01:06:28,890 --> 01:06:32,820 working with you now and on some, some homes that, that, 1108 01:06:32,830 --> 01:06:34,840 that we're, we're happy to be working with him on. 1109 01:06:35,330 --> 01:06:39,640 And, and his team, his team and in Torino is amazing to work 1110 01:06:39,650 --> 01:06:41,640 with. Like we, we have a, I think a 1111 01:06:41,650 --> 01:06:43,610 good relationship. We have a bunch of Italians in 1112 01:06:43,620 --> 01:06:45,700 our office and, you know, they're obviously Italian. 1113 01:06:45,710 --> 01:06:48,150 So, you know, it's there's a good synergy. 1114 01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,520 There, yeah. So so those those calls can 1115 01:06:50,530 --> 01:06:53,240 actually be spoken in Italian. They can. 1116 01:06:53,250 --> 01:06:54,810 Yes. And if you're, if you're not 1117 01:06:54,820 --> 01:06:56,250 there, you're gonna need closed captioning. 1118 01:06:56,300 --> 01:06:58,290 Yeah, sorry. If you're there, if you're in 1119 01:06:58,300 --> 01:07:00,430 it, yeah. That's with the blank look on my 1120 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,130 face all the time when they start to speak in. 1121 01:07:02,140 --> 01:07:04,370 Italian. I actually think that now with 1122 01:07:04,380 --> 01:07:08,670 Google Meeting you have an option to turn on no. 1123 01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:10,910 Yeah. Really, I'm pretty sure I can I, 1124 01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,750 I can verify this with afterwards, but I'm gonna check 1125 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,350 it out. I'm almost positive that there 1126 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,030 is an opportunity now within it to be able to have closed 1127 01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,570 captioning and to put it in your language. 1128 01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:24,160 That would be amazing. I'm gonna have to check that I 1129 01:07:24,450 --> 01:07:26,820 yeah, cause these these guys switch on me all the time. 1130 01:07:26,830 --> 01:07:29,510 So. Check that out. 1131 01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,370 Uh, yeah, so think. Stefano sometimes does it on. 1132 01:07:32,380 --> 01:07:33,910 Purpose it just to mess with you. 1133 01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:35,440 He's got a big smile on his face. 1134 01:07:35,450 --> 01:07:40,640 Yeah. And and you're also doing, 1135 01:07:40,650 --> 01:07:44,680 you're also doing like large scale community planning and 1136 01:07:44,990 --> 01:07:47,870 multi res. And you were saying now you're 1137 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,000 looking at public, public work? Yeah. 1138 01:07:50,010 --> 01:07:53,920 So I mean on the on the larger scale stuff, you know, we 1139 01:07:53,930 --> 01:07:57,760 obviously do mixed-use buildings mid rise. 1140 01:07:57,810 --> 01:08:01,120 Well, I think we're doing some quite a bit of, you know, 1141 01:08:01,130 --> 01:08:04,560 starting to do quite a bit of missing middle like sort of, you 1142 01:08:04,570 --> 01:08:08,000 know, Multiplex stuff on the lower end. 1143 01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:12,260 We do a bunch of mid rise at what I would call high mid rise 1144 01:08:12,270 --> 01:08:14,200 and then some high rise projects as well. 1145 01:08:14,510 --> 01:08:18,750 We have a large project that we're working on up in just 1146 01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:22,899 north of the VMC and Vaughn, which is, you know, they're sort 1147 01:08:22,910 --> 01:08:26,420 of like our, I think our tallest project that we've been, you 1148 01:08:26,430 --> 01:08:29,740 know, really working on it's, you know, in that fifty story 1149 01:08:29,750 --> 01:08:31,420 range sort of thing. So you know. 1150 01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:33,540 Substantial. So it's getting to be a, you 1151 01:08:33,550 --> 01:08:37,800 know, taller towers and then we have a very large project in 1152 01:08:39,279 --> 01:08:42,850 Niagara, yes, the Prudom Slanting project and we've been 1153 01:08:42,859 --> 01:08:47,189 working with FBH there for a number of years in that project 1154 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,050 has is kind of like a full community. 1155 01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:55,510 So you know, it has a few thousand residential units in it 1156 01:08:55,819 --> 01:09:00,609 mixed across, you know, sort of low rise, mid rise and some 1157 01:09:00,620 --> 01:09:05,670 potentially high rise towers. Main Street that's, you know, 1158 01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,790 sort of got a commercial component to it, some industrial 1159 01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:15,939 office, you know, right on the lake, sort of a beautiful, you 1160 01:09:15,950 --> 01:09:17,689 know, property right on Lake Ontario. 1161 01:09:17,979 --> 01:09:22,670 If you're ever sort of traveling on the QEW, it's, it's, it used 1162 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:26,319 to be actually a place that, you know, as kids we would go to 1163 01:09:26,330 --> 01:09:29,090 because they had a great haunted house at Halloween and it was an 1164 01:09:29,100 --> 01:09:30,790 amusement park at one point in time. 1165 01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,510 But it's a, it's a very rich history in that project because 1166 01:09:35,580 --> 01:09:40,580 back in the day, Mr. Prudom, who Mr. Prudom, who owned it was a, 1167 01:09:41,140 --> 01:09:45,359 you know, it was a hobby farm and, you know, had, you know, 1168 01:09:45,410 --> 01:09:48,120 fruit trees, you know, very romantic sort of on, on the 1169 01:09:48,130 --> 01:09:49,500 lake. And then people would go for 1170 01:09:49,510 --> 01:09:51,620 picnics and that. And then it ended up becoming a, 1171 01:09:51,890 --> 01:09:57,130 an event space where they had singers like Liza Minelli and 1172 01:09:57,140 --> 01:09:59,710 stuff would sort of come. And I think there was a bunch 1173 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:04,830 of, you know, sort of fires and stuff in the in the early, early 1174 01:10:05,420 --> 01:10:09,530 20th century that kind of they transitioned and then sort of 1175 01:10:09,540 --> 01:10:12,150 went more the amusement park, which was kind of common in. 1176 01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,620 In that. And, but never sort of gained 1177 01:10:15,630 --> 01:10:19,680 the, the sort of scale of something like Crystal beach or 1178 01:10:19,910 --> 01:10:21,500 or marine land or something like that. 1179 01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:25,660 So, but it was always fun for us as kids to go to and actually 1180 01:10:25,670 --> 01:10:28,420 went to high school with two of the grandchildren. 1181 01:10:29,350 --> 01:10:32,840 So of the prudence. So it was always, it was always 1182 01:10:32,850 --> 01:10:36,100 a, you know, there's a, there's a place in my, in my past there 1183 01:10:36,110 --> 01:10:40,550 and in terms of my heart. And and now we're working on it 1184 01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,880 to sort of re envision it as like a, as a kind of a whole 1185 01:10:43,890 --> 01:10:45,840 community. It's pretty amazing. 1186 01:10:45,850 --> 01:10:46,880 Area. Yeah, it's a. 1187 01:10:46,930 --> 01:10:50,730 Well, so, so one of my ideas that I'll now reveal to you on 1188 01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,210 creating a full circle moment for you for for your love of 1189 01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,490 things and your teens and 20s. You probably still love looking 1190 01:10:59,500 --> 01:11:06,730 at RFP's for Are you ready? I'm ready. 1191 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:11,930 For like ski, ski clubs throughout North America, but 1192 01:11:11,940 --> 01:11:15,670 then also looking at RFP's for things like the public work of 1193 01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:19,270 like, you know, you know, essentially like National Guard 1194 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:24,120 or, um, what's it called? Services. 1195 01:11:25,770 --> 01:11:27,360 Coast Guard service. Coast Guard service. 1196 01:11:27,370 --> 01:11:29,340 Yeah, yeah. You know, how cool would it be 1197 01:11:29,350 --> 01:11:31,620 to be able to design? Yeah, yeah. 1198 01:11:31,670 --> 01:11:35,480 One of one of their stations, yeah, having been a part of it. 1199 01:11:35,610 --> 01:11:39,220 Well, I think that, yeah, I've, I've, I've, I've thought of 1200 01:11:39,230 --> 01:11:43,950 that, you know, and I have, I think that we had gone after 1201 01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,030 facility, I wanna say it was a facility in Perry Sound. 1202 01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:51,630 But anyway, it was a Coast Guard facility back in the day. 1203 01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,130 But yeah, yeah, we haven't really, you know, because the 1204 01:11:55,140 --> 01:11:58,150 housing market has been something that's been, you know, 1205 01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:02,030 sustaining us for over years. And, and because we do have like 1206 01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,270 sort of, you know, we do some commercial work, we do some 1207 01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,690 industrial work, we do some Class A like, you know, sort of 1208 01:12:08,700 --> 01:12:13,310 office interiors work. We do some, you know some 1209 01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:21,410 physical fitness clubs and stuff like that as well. 1210 01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,250 We have a a diversity I think within the portfolio, but 1211 01:12:26,260 --> 01:12:31,350 because the housing market has downturned and you know a lot of 1212 01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,150 our clients are switching to purpose built rental and we seem 1213 01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,670 to be you know fine on that end of it. 1214 01:12:37,810 --> 01:12:43,280 But there is there is a want on our end to to spin sort of more 1215 01:12:43,290 --> 01:12:47,950 into, you know, and and going back like the emergency service. 1216 01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,390 We feel that that's like our way into, you know, working with 1217 01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,750 Chris and yes, and sort of enjoying venture and sort of 1218 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,900 going after a number of these like projects. 1219 01:12:58,910 --> 01:13:01,550 I hear you're suggesting there are kind of what we're what 1220 01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,370 we're doing. And I think a lot of firms are 1221 01:13:03,380 --> 01:13:05,990 sort of making that pivot because the infrastructure spend 1222 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,380 is is getting. We gotta talk it into existence. 1223 01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:09,050 Yeah. OK. 1224 01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:13,930 Anyone out there, you're working in some capacity, OK, on the RFP 1225 01:13:13,940 --> 01:13:20,440 process, like, you know, National Guard or, or any Coast 1226 01:13:20,450 --> 01:13:23,200 Guard station, Coast Coast Guard station or, you know, there's 1227 01:13:23,210 --> 01:13:27,620 like this intimate ski chalet that might be perhaps for like 1228 01:13:28,170 --> 01:13:33,570 for a, a private resorts. Or maybe, you know, maybe it's a 1229 01:13:33,580 --> 01:13:37,430 publicly traded resort and they need to have like a, a climate 1230 01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:40,650 station at the top right now. That's a good plug. 1231 01:13:40,660 --> 01:13:43,680 Man, now we're tying together to you what your dad was doing. 1232 01:13:43,690 --> 01:13:45,600 You know, let's bring it full circle. 1233 01:13:46,910 --> 01:13:49,900 I know those, those types of projects would be, would be 1234 01:13:49,910 --> 01:13:52,080 great. I mean, you know, right now in 1235 01:13:52,090 --> 01:13:55,090 terms of what we're, you know, what we're working on sort of in 1236 01:13:55,100 --> 01:13:59,660 and around the, the GTA, you know, we are working with a 1237 01:13:59,810 --> 01:14:04,700 number of municipalities on some EMS and fire type projects, 1238 01:14:04,710 --> 01:14:06,960 which is great. And you know, those clients are 1239 01:14:06,970 --> 01:14:10,190 always very interesting and very, you know, sort of fun to 1240 01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:13,650 work with. And, you know, the, the federal, 1241 01:14:13,750 --> 01:14:16,460 the federal stuff like on the Coast Guard and that, you know, 1242 01:14:16,510 --> 01:14:18,840 there are, there's definitely spending on defence that's 1243 01:14:18,850 --> 01:14:20,860 happening now. And, you know, we're looking at 1244 01:14:20,870 --> 01:14:23,080 those, you know, and I think that a lot of people are, you 1245 01:14:23,090 --> 01:14:25,760 know, hitting bids and tenders and, you know, looking at, at 1246 01:14:25,770 --> 01:14:28,900 mercs and, and, and really trying to figure out where, 1247 01:14:29,030 --> 01:14:33,420 where they fit in in that realm. But yeah, you know, it's 1248 01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:36,100 evolving in terms of the portfolio, that's for sure. 1249 01:14:37,550 --> 01:14:39,910 And it has to, I think, I think that, you know, some of the 1250 01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,550 decisions that you made in the way that you've managed the 1251 01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,260 business over the years from things that you've discussed now 1252 01:14:46,150 --> 01:14:51,250 seem like you've always kind of tried to stay ahead of necessary 1253 01:14:51,260 --> 01:14:55,630 change and having to be forced into it, like you're, you're 1254 01:14:55,640 --> 01:15:00,320 actually actively pursuing it in advance, which speaks to A, to a 1255 01:15:00,330 --> 01:15:03,920 studio that can be malleable. And yeah, I think that we're, 1256 01:15:03,930 --> 01:15:06,730 we're, we are, I think malleable is the good, the good word. 1257 01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:09,660 I think that, you know, the spatial planning aspect of it 1258 01:15:09,670 --> 01:15:12,720 and what our interests lie, where our interest lies there, 1259 01:15:12,950 --> 01:15:16,440 you know, is something that is, is, is a good example of that 1260 01:15:16,450 --> 01:15:19,840 because we are, you know, we are trying to to really bring 1261 01:15:19,850 --> 01:15:23,870 something about where we can work with municipalities, maybe 1262 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:26,200 other other firms as well. We worked with some planning 1263 01:15:26,210 --> 01:15:30,250 firms that, you know, they don't maybe have the the depth when it 1264 01:15:30,260 --> 01:15:32,530 comes to, you know, sort of creating something that's a 1265 01:15:32,540 --> 01:15:35,680 spatial plan. That's really a good dialogue 1266 01:15:36,220 --> 01:15:38,930 for all of the partners involved in a, in a project. 1267 01:15:38,940 --> 01:15:41,930 Like when you're talking about a musicality and let's say the the 1268 01:15:41,940 --> 01:15:46,770 ratepayers, the other, you know, sort of interested parties to 1269 01:15:46,780 --> 01:15:51,950 really, you know, get something not that's just a like a graphic 1270 01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,790 plan, but is is a is a well thought out, you know, systems 1271 01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:02,250 based, you know, sort of plan. And when I'm saying plan, like 1272 01:16:02,260 --> 01:16:04,580 it's, it's holistic, it's not just like you're looking at a, 1273 01:16:04,620 --> 01:16:08,800 you know, top down view and yeah, and sort of reading a land 1274 01:16:08,810 --> 01:16:11,220 use map sort of right. It's not that right. 1275 01:16:11,230 --> 01:16:15,000 It's something that really delves into mobility and and the 1276 01:16:15,010 --> 01:16:20,520 environment and the the demographics and, you know, you 1277 01:16:20,530 --> 01:16:23,760 know, really translates in in sort of understands the the 1278 01:16:23,770 --> 01:16:27,700 policy that sort of shapes, but then informs, you know, sort of 1279 01:16:27,710 --> 01:16:31,800 the built form and can be a, you know, a really great place to 1280 01:16:31,810 --> 01:16:35,160 sort of have that dialogue with, you know, the architects that 1281 01:16:35,170 --> 01:16:38,200 are going to, you know, realize that built from whether it's us 1282 01:16:38,210 --> 01:16:41,340 or somebody else, right. So, you know, I think we we feel 1283 01:16:41,350 --> 01:16:44,300 pretty passionate about that and we think it's a great place 1284 01:16:44,510 --> 01:16:47,580 where, you know, we have, you know, the language around it and 1285 01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:50,580 sort of the experience specifically with loud on board 1286 01:16:50,740 --> 01:16:52,790 and, you know, rate at the cutting edge, right. 1287 01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:57,030 You know, he's, he's a guy that sort of has his, his, you know, 1288 01:16:57,120 --> 01:17:00,930 he's just come from Europe, you know, is, is engaged with 1289 01:17:00,940 --> 01:17:06,010 Stuttgart and in the past ETH Zurich and and Delft. 1290 01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:11,090 So he's, you know, he's got, he's got some, some serious, you 1291 01:17:11,100 --> 01:17:13,130 know, sort of connections. This thought a lot about this 1292 01:17:13,140 --> 01:17:15,170 stuff. So I'm gonna use this like the 1293 01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:19,450 the Yiddish term growing up is like he's got, Yeah. 1294 01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:22,830 No, no, for sure, for sure. And, you know, the, the people 1295 01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:28,080 here that are, that are working in these spaces too, you know, 1296 01:17:28,090 --> 01:17:30,700 we were having some dialogue with some people at the City of 1297 01:17:30,710 --> 01:17:36,040 Toronto or at the University of Toronto as well as ASTU and then 1298 01:17:36,050 --> 01:17:39,380 definitely in Waterloo. So I mean, this is, this is this 1299 01:17:39,390 --> 01:17:42,640 dialogue is happening, you know, and we're, we're, we're, we want 1300 01:17:42,650 --> 01:17:44,960 to be part of it. And, you know, if we can, we can 1301 01:17:44,970 --> 01:17:49,360 help, help it along. We think of, you know, we're, 1302 01:17:49,370 --> 01:17:52,070 we're, we're very happy to be part of that, you know, going 1303 01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:55,070 forward. So tell me, what does, what does 1304 01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:58,030 life for you outside of studio look like? 1305 01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,160 I, I understand that you, you, you know, you do what you're 1306 01:18:01,170 --> 01:18:04,270 doing a lot. So how are you able to unwind 1307 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,030 from and what are some of the things that you you still have 1308 01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:12,330 an interest in dabbling in as hobbies and activity and family? 1309 01:18:12,440 --> 01:18:19,080 I still, I live down on the waterfront now and and I, my, my 1310 01:18:19,090 --> 01:18:24,730 partner and I, we, we sail OK, yeah, she had never sailed. 1311 01:18:24,740 --> 01:18:30,930 And then we had a, a happy accident in terms of falling 1312 01:18:30,940 --> 01:18:34,930 into a vessel that we were pretty, we're pretty passionate 1313 01:18:34,940 --> 01:18:38,110 about, but is right now getting a new engine. 1314 01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:42,110 So we're going to be doing some sailing hopefully soon couple 1315 01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:43,830 weeks. Well, maybe. 1316 01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:44,490 Maybe. Even. 1317 01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:48,170 Have a month? The engine is is ready to go, it 1318 01:18:48,180 --> 01:18:50,290 just hasn't been put in the boats that can take. 1319 01:18:50,300 --> 01:18:52,350 It it's also like the busiest time of year. 1320 01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:54,500 Right. This is the thing, say it's 1321 01:18:54,510 --> 01:18:58,320 always a challenge on boats. I think that, yeah, there's some 1322 01:18:58,330 --> 01:19:01,500 sayings around boats with regard to, you know, you're just other 1323 01:19:01,510 --> 01:19:04,570 pumping a lot of money into them or not being able to use them. 1324 01:19:04,580 --> 01:19:07,460 And, you know, it's frustrating. Yeah. 1325 01:19:07,540 --> 01:19:11,050 But you know, I'm, I, I still love being on the water and, and 1326 01:19:11,060 --> 01:19:15,340 that's something that I find super relaxing, chill. 1327 01:19:15,610 --> 01:19:19,760 And we've done some great trips like on Lake Ontario and then 1328 01:19:19,850 --> 01:19:24,000 through the canal system up into Lake Erie and, and traversing 1329 01:19:24,010 --> 01:19:26,200 Lake Erie. So yeah, we like to sail. 1330 01:19:26,500 --> 01:19:29,240 And what's what? How big is the length of the 1331 01:19:29,250 --> 01:19:31,060 boat? It's a 41 foot. 1332 01:19:31,070 --> 01:19:34,920 Boat OK as comfortable on on the water. 1333 01:19:34,930 --> 01:19:37,520 That's super comfortable because it's an old racing. 1334 01:19:37,530 --> 01:19:38,640 Boat. So it's it's. 1335 01:19:38,650 --> 01:19:43,260 A little bare bones, but it's fun to sail and it's, you know, 1336 01:19:43,310 --> 01:19:47,700 we, we love those, those sort of summer evenings in Toronto where 1337 01:19:48,270 --> 01:19:51,120 you'll have to come actually the summer we should, we should do 1338 01:19:51,130 --> 01:19:55,740 that Or, you know, you go out on a nice little bit of breezy, you 1339 01:19:55,750 --> 01:20:00,030 know, summer evening and, and do a bit of a trip around. 1340 01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,360 The island, I'll tell you. So I mean, as an aside to that, 1341 01:20:03,370 --> 01:20:06,890 I, when I was young, I used to go to overnight camp and my 1342 01:20:06,900 --> 01:20:09,210 favorite activity at overnight camp was sailing. 1343 01:20:09,220 --> 01:20:10,980 Oh, nice. So I used to take out those like 1344 01:20:10,990 --> 01:20:12,890 those Lasers. Yeah, right. 1345 01:20:12,900 --> 01:20:16,010 So this is like a big laser. It's, it's, it's, Yeah, it's, 1346 01:20:16,020 --> 01:20:18,790 it's seriously. It's like, so I would solo, I 1347 01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:21,810 would go out and solo on on lasers all the time. 1348 01:20:21,820 --> 01:20:25,160 And I was, you know, try to ride it literally almost in the 90 1349 01:20:26,990 --> 01:20:29,330 many times flipping and, you know, trying to. 1350 01:20:29,340 --> 01:20:31,350 Try and keep. It well yeah, yours I don't 1351 01:20:31,360 --> 01:20:35,200 think you wanna flip but but learning the art of the draw of 1352 01:20:35,210 --> 01:20:39,460 the dry flip what's what's called alright, he's not a flip 1353 01:20:39,470 --> 01:20:40,380 but. Probably a technical. 1354 01:20:40,390 --> 01:20:41,540 Term. There's a technical term for it, 1355 01:20:41,550 --> 01:20:43,880 but I remember like learning the art of the dry flip and I could 1356 01:20:43,890 --> 01:20:47,810 master it like I would. The boat would be soaked, but as 1357 01:20:47,820 --> 01:20:50,630 it was, as it was turning over, I'd hop the side. 1358 01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:52,030 Right. Yeah. 1359 01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:54,250 Man, it was sailing is incredible. 1360 01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,750 Yeah, it's a great, it's a, it's a great heart sport. 1361 01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:02,610 Harnessing the power of wind is is something anyhow, so and what 1362 01:21:02,620 --> 01:21:06,570 else would outside of outside of that, are you still skiing at 1363 01:21:06,580 --> 01:21:10,230 all? You know, my skiing has has 1364 01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,410 dropped off for the last last skiing last skiing event I had, 1365 01:21:14,420 --> 01:21:18,830 I was was Whistler. OK. 1366 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:24,410 I went up there for a day after speaking engagement at the build 1367 01:21:24,420 --> 01:21:26,580 conference in in Vancouver. Yeah. 1368 01:21:26,590 --> 01:21:31,850 And I skied that one day and and then I went down and went over 1369 01:21:31,860 --> 01:21:36,850 to Tofino, and I surfed and Tofino with the snow falling, it 1370 01:21:36,860 --> 01:21:39,810 was awesome. And then haven't skied really 1371 01:21:39,820 --> 01:21:42,770 since. And that was like 2019. 1372 01:21:42,780 --> 01:21:43,650 OK. Yeah. 1373 01:21:43,740 --> 01:21:47,800 And I have three boys and they're all in Germany trying to 1374 01:21:47,810 --> 01:21:51,170 become a pro soccer players. So my time is spent. 1375 01:21:51,220 --> 01:21:52,950 Traveling to see the. Traveling to see them. 1376 01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,350 So yeah, yeah. And that's, that's been an 1377 01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:59,650 amazing experience as well. You know, I love Europe and 1378 01:21:59,780 --> 01:22:04,780 they're in Southwestern Germany. Just around Manheim is a 1379 01:22:05,110 --> 01:22:09,120 amazing, amazing landscape, wonderful place, good mountain 1380 01:22:09,130 --> 01:22:10,680 biking. I do go mountain biking there. 1381 01:22:10,690 --> 01:22:12,660 So that's. Yeah. 1382 01:22:13,100 --> 01:22:16,120 That's great. I was, I was just man biking in 1383 01:22:16,130 --> 01:22:18,990 New Brunswick a week and a half ago from the from the date of 1384 01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:23,320 this recording on like on another guy's mountain bike on a 1385 01:22:23,330 --> 01:22:25,320 trail that I didn't know it was 6°. 1386 01:22:25,330 --> 01:22:28,740 I was out there with Lucas McDowell from Bishop McDowell 1387 01:22:29,530 --> 01:22:32,460 and two of us like here, he was fine. 1388 01:22:32,470 --> 01:22:35,260 I was like, I was struggling. I had a, I had a cold and 1389 01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:37,440 everything you. Know it makes your voice sound 1390 01:22:37,450 --> 01:22:40,480 good though. I mean, I guess that's what 1391 01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:42,860 someone actually just recently said that like, oh, you're raspy 1392 01:22:42,870 --> 01:22:48,580 voice is great, but when you go mountain biking on trails that 1393 01:22:48,590 --> 01:22:52,280 you don't know and you don't know your way around on how to 1394 01:22:52,290 --> 01:22:54,720 navigate the connection points between trails and you're 1395 01:22:54,730 --> 01:22:57,460 constantly having to open, try to open up a map and figure out 1396 01:22:57,470 --> 01:23:00,100 where you are. It's a little bit exhausting. 1397 01:23:00,110 --> 01:23:02,540 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been. I've been down that road. 1398 01:23:02,590 --> 01:23:06,570 But but, but I couldn't, I would imagine, yeah, biking out there 1399 01:23:06,580 --> 01:23:09,380 in Europe, I mean, that's that's a full bucket list. 1400 01:23:09,590 --> 01:23:15,340 Yeah, the, the, the area that the boys live there in a little 1401 01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:17,820 town called Neistat for for quite a while. 1402 01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:22,950 And it has a the heart forest, which is sort of an elevation 1403 01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,270 change from the Rhineland Palatinate. 1404 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:30,810 And that sort of climbs up and it's not like a huge amount of, 1405 01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,990 you know, sort of up, but like it's, it's, it's enough. 1406 01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:39,070 And they have a like kind of an interesting loan there that that 1407 01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:41,290 dries quickly. So even if you get some rain and 1408 01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:42,990 stuff like you can still still get out. 1409 01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,810 There well in the bikes like European bike brands that don't 1410 01:23:46,820 --> 01:23:49,760 even see North America, some of them are incredible. 1411 01:23:49,770 --> 01:23:51,410 Out there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 1412 01:23:51,480 --> 01:23:54,510 And I was bringing my bike for a while, but now I just rent her 1413 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:59,410 right whatever while I'm there. But we, yeah, we do some my, my 1414 01:23:59,480 --> 01:24:03,100 youngest son and I have done well, actually, I think probably 1415 01:24:03,870 --> 01:24:05,860 maybe all of them. We've done some night riding and 1416 01:24:05,870 --> 01:24:08,420 stuff like that out there, which has been a lot of fun. 1417 01:24:08,430 --> 01:24:09,080 Night ride. Yeah. 1418 01:24:09,090 --> 01:24:13,220 Where you're just out in the, in these, these, these forests, you 1419 01:24:13,230 --> 01:24:16,310 know, and don't really know where you're going, but. 1420 01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,130 I during the summer time, I go out, I go out in the dawn at 1421 01:24:20,140 --> 01:24:23,290 night, and it's incredibly start during dusk, Yeah. 1422 01:24:23,300 --> 01:24:25,230 And then, you know, you're like at the other end and you're 1423 01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:27,180 like, well, it's dark. And then you flip on your 1424 01:24:27,190 --> 01:24:29,490 headlamp and you got your lamp, you got your lights on your 1425 01:24:29,500 --> 01:24:31,970 handlebars. Anyone listening to this, if you 1426 01:24:31,980 --> 01:24:35,470 don't know about this world, let me tell you, the Don in Toronto 1427 01:24:35,480 --> 01:24:39,910 is like 100 and 100 kilometers of trail network of single 1428 01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:41,930 track. It's incredible. 1429 01:24:42,020 --> 01:24:45,250 Anyhow, I digress. Yeah, me too. 1430 01:24:46,350 --> 01:24:47,490 Craig, it's been a pleasure, man. 1431 01:24:47,500 --> 01:24:49,260 Thanks for thanks. Thanks for taking time to do 1432 01:24:49,270 --> 01:24:55,190 this with me today to open up and be so, so candid with like, 1433 01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:57,340 you know, stories that stories of your life. 1434 01:24:57,540 --> 01:25:00,100 And we're getting to recount some of it. 1435 01:25:00,110 --> 01:25:01,820 I think it's gonna be interesting some of the legacy 1436 01:25:01,830 --> 01:25:03,560 stuff here. And when I say that like, you 1437 01:25:03,570 --> 01:25:05,680 know, talking about how your kids right now are in Germany, 1438 01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:09,820 how this conversation will have evolved 5 years from now and 1439 01:25:09,830 --> 01:25:12,060 where and what they're doing and what you're doing. 1440 01:25:12,070 --> 01:25:15,840 So thanks, thanks for doing it. I I've really look forward to 1441 01:25:15,850 --> 01:25:18,570 having you here and chatting and learning all about you. 1442 01:25:18,750 --> 01:25:21,020 Oht thanks very much man, it's been very enjoyable.