1
00:00:01,530 --> 00:00:10,250
OK other thing Horge, whenever 
you want to you can drink OK 

2
00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:12,090
here. 
Yeah, that's alright. 

3
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,800
I can hear. 
I'll move this out of your face.

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00:00:15,870 --> 00:00:18,690
OK. 
Yes, thank you. 

5
00:00:20,050 --> 00:00:22,420
Zeeshan is my editor. 
Hello, Zeeshan. 

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00:00:22,890 --> 00:00:27,880
I'm gonna get started on a 
recording in a three to 1 

7
00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:30,050
welcome to issued for 
construction. 

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00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,690
I am your host, Jonathan Jacobs,
and today I've got with me a 

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00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:38,430
gentleman that kind of combines 
all facets of our industry, 

10
00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:45,160
somewhat of an an enigmatic man 
from Argentina. 

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00:00:45,620 --> 00:00:51,740
He is not an architect, at least
not a licensed architect. 

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00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:53,940
He might he he has creative 
ideas. 

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00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:57,590
He is not a certified builder, 
but he builds. 

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He is not a designer, but he 
designs. 

15
00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:06,640
I have with me today a gentleman
whose name is Jorge Epstein and 

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00:01:06,650 --> 00:01:15,690
Horge has ideas and he has 
uncovered a portal into an old 

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world that he has been in the 
process for the last couple of 

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decades, refurbishing and 
rebuilding, and it has become a 

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national treasure in Argentina. 
Have I described it correctly? 

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00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:36,650
Well, I don't know natural 
because treasuries have to be 

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00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:40,980
defined, but. 
As an idea works. 

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00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:48,320
As an idea, it's, uh, it's sort 
of an emblem of the city today. 

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00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:53,050
Fairly well, I've gotta say to 
you, thank you for joining today

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00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,690
this. 
It's a pleasure for me to be 

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00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:58,060
here. 
So this this today's episode is 

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gonna be, I think, slightly 
different than the standard in 

27
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some capacity, only in that 
we're gonna talk about a 

28
00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:08,509
specific well, we're going to 
talk about your life, but and 

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00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,590
we'll talk about the evolution 
of what you've become over your 

30
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,170
life and family and all the rest
of it. 

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00:02:13,180 --> 00:02:19,490
But we'll talk about this 
discovery and what it has led to

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00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,320
and the impact that it had, all 
things related to that. 

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00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,850
So if you're listening today, 
you gotta know what you're about

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00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:35,390
to hear is a really, really, 
really interesting story, so. 

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00:02:35,850 --> 00:02:43,720
Well, hello out there and let's 
say that I'm not an architect, 

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00:02:44,150 --> 00:02:50,340
although the demonology of the 
word architect is first 

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00:02:50,350 --> 00:02:54,490
Carpenter. 
So if you look at the architects

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00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:58,860
today, well, conferences would 
be architects and architects 

39
00:02:58,870 --> 00:03:03,290
would be designers. 
And the truth is that with 

40
00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:09,230
evolution architecture, it went 
from Stonewood, different 

41
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:17,500
materials and your breaks, 
concrete and now we're going 

42
00:03:17,510 --> 00:03:24,000
back to wood. 
Well, that's a tremendous change

43
00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:32,270
through thousands of years. 
Really represents the evolution 

44
00:03:33,390 --> 00:03:39,180
of an idea, which is knowing 
more and understanding the 

45
00:03:39,190 --> 00:03:41,880
problem it causes. 
Well, now what? 

46
00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:47,080
I'm going to tell you this 
adventure of mine that happened 

47
00:03:47,090 --> 00:03:52,960
by accident that would go to 
back later has to do with 

48
00:03:52,970 --> 00:04:00,520
something that started as the 
the size of an investment to the

49
00:04:00,530 --> 00:04:04,300
birth of an idea and a 
philosophy. 

50
00:04:05,530 --> 00:04:08,060
And you see this is abstract, 
yes? 

51
00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:17,140
Well, not so, Uh, we talk about 
a project which is 77,000 square

52
00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:23,990
feet, digging underground and 
discovering under derelict 

53
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:30,610
building a tunnel which was 
under that building with a 

54
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:38,180
length of 14 meters. 
And then we'll go back later 

55
00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:41,320
into which were the steps you 
took us to the end. 

56
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,540
At the end it was the first 
swish of system of the city. 

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00:04:47,250 --> 00:04:51,740
They went under the whole 
square, different buildings and 

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00:04:51,750 --> 00:04:59,370
revealed ruins going back to the
16 hundreds, 168917 hundreds. 

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00:05:01,970 --> 00:05:06,780
How did we get there? 
Well, I'm a chemist by 

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00:05:06,790 --> 00:05:11,540
profession and our work in 
chemistry for more than 30 

61
00:05:11,550 --> 00:05:14,900
years. 
Before, before we go into that, 

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00:05:15,410 --> 00:05:18,190
I wanna actually go back to the 
very beginning of your life. 

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00:05:19,140 --> 00:05:23,280
Where were you born and where 
were your parents from? 

64
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,510
And what was your life like 
where you were born and growing 

65
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,130
up? 
Well, he went to the core of the

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00:05:32,140 --> 00:05:38,810
thing because really, in a way, 
when we live and grow, we carry 

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00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:40,780
something that we've learned. 
Correct. 

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00:05:41,490 --> 00:05:46,960
At school, at home, at the same 
time, the experience of our 

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00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:50,690
parents. 
My parents came from Hungary. 

70
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:57,870
Yeah, my father left early 1926,
before Nazism, before communism,

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00:05:57,980 --> 00:06:01,960
OK, The founder that was left 
there in Hungary, which is now 

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00:06:01,970 --> 00:06:06,880
Romania, after 1918 border 
modification. 

73
00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:11,670
Yeah, they had to survive those 
two systems. 

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00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:18,690
So basically I was vaccinated 
against the loss of freedom 

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00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,990
because of my parents situation.
He was a chemical engineer. 

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00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,560
He studied in Prague with the 
top organic chemistry professor.

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00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:36,410
Holliman and I went into 
chemistry who worked in in oils.

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00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,890
And then when I started working,
I went to the same branch, fats 

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00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:44,870
and oils, but I went into animal
fats. 

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00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:49,440
That was a sort of specialized 
field where you could compete. 

81
00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:51,780
Yeah. 
And I knew that sometime I 

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00:06:51,790 --> 00:06:56,100
wasn't going to be able to lead.
And with small company with 7 

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00:06:56,110 --> 00:07:00,230
laborers. 
But I did succeed in creating a 

84
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,900
product was unique, sold to the 
international companies, Shell, 

85
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:13,190
Exxon, Pfizer, Hanker, all the 
big chemical companies. 

86
00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:19,350
So I knew that I was going to be
controlled and. 

87
00:07:20,350 --> 00:07:24,360
And how old were you? 
Monash First I work for 3:00 PM 

88
00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:27,380
for a year and then I went into 
into this field. 

89
00:07:27,390 --> 00:07:38,770
I was 24, OK, straight till I 
was 23, let's say 3035 years. 

90
00:07:38,860 --> 00:07:43,970
I worked in and oils OK, and I 
knew that that business was 

91
00:07:43,980 --> 00:07:50,440
going to die out and had no 
capital to put up something new.

92
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,680
Yeah, and big, but it had a, it 
was a big industry where they 

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00:07:55,690 --> 00:08:01,540
had had 1000 tons of capacity in
fats and I was working with 

94
00:08:01,940 --> 00:08:10,180
boilers, vacuum systems, 
refrigeration, air conditioning.

95
00:08:10,590 --> 00:08:13,930
So had a good industrial 
background, OK. 

96
00:08:14,030 --> 00:08:18,810
When I stopped, which I didn't 
stop totally because my son was 

97
00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:23,560
in engineer went into that 
business and I should have moved

98
00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:26,330
out because. 
That helped mentor him a little 

99
00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:29,840
bit at the startup. 
No, he he would. 

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00:08:29,850 --> 00:08:31,140
He worked the direct. 
He went. 

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00:08:31,150 --> 00:08:32,860
He learned what I knew. 
Yes. 

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00:08:33,049 --> 00:08:36,900
And so he went on working. 
Yeah, in a market that was 

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00:08:36,909 --> 00:08:40,659
changing and dying out, but he 
was able to find other things to

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00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:48,700
do in the meantime. 
And I went into work in in this 

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00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:54,650
project which I had bought it 
where it was a brother land with

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00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:57,890
an old building on top of it. 
Close. 

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00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:01,900
Then I bought it closed then I 
didn't know what was inside. 

108
00:09:01,950 --> 00:09:12,040
OK 10,000 square feet of 12,000 
square feet of building full of 

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00:09:12,050 --> 00:09:20,220
rubble inside which I did not 
know till I went in and the idea

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00:09:20,230 --> 00:09:24,360
was that it was given away. 
It was sold for the value with 2

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00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:30,590
1/2 mid size cars in the centre 
of the city, some blocks to the 

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00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,520
Pink House, which should be 
equivalent to some blocks from 

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00:09:33,530 --> 00:09:34,650
the White House. 
Yeah. 

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00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,370
Considering the difference 
between Argentina and the United

115
00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:40,340
States, yeah. 
But it was a ridiculous value 

116
00:09:41,660 --> 00:09:48,410
swat I bought. 
Really trash. 

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00:09:49,810 --> 00:09:56,210
Uh, if you want to be more 
polite you could say scrap. 

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00:09:56,270 --> 00:10:00,330
That's OK, I'm good with trash. 
Now that's what I used to do 

119
00:10:00,340 --> 00:10:03,620
with fats. 
OK, because I used to refine 

120
00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:07,060
edible oils but I couldn't 
compete with the scale. 

121
00:10:08,380 --> 00:10:12,070
It's like having a car factory 
and sending you start with 

122
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,300
sewing machines. 
If you can build a car with 

123
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:18,420
sewing machine, it's simpler. 
You're pretty good. 

124
00:10:18,610 --> 00:10:22,590
You've got the technology. 
So I went into animal fats. 

125
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,570
But what sort of animal fats? 
Well, horse grease. 

126
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,510
Chicken grease. 
Grease. 

127
00:10:30,580 --> 00:10:33,390
Yeah, fish oil. 
OK. 

128
00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:37,940
Now you have to put things in 
perspective. 

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00:10:38,010 --> 00:10:43,380
One thing is we're talking about
a car in the year 2025 or 26. 

130
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,860
And The thing is having an idea 
of a car in 1899. 

131
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,890
So I was in 1899 when I was 
talking about cars, because I 

132
00:10:55,900 --> 00:11:02,680
was talking about fish oils in 
the year 1963, and the United 

133
00:11:02,690 --> 00:11:09,390
States was publishing books 
about fish oil by an author 

134
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,970
named Stansby in 1960. 
So I had to bring those books 

135
00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:19,960
from the stage to convince the 
chemical people in the industry 

136
00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:26,010
that that could be used. 
And that's what I refined, so I 

137
00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:30,340
was accustomed to working with 
scrap. 

138
00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:36,310
OK. 
Uh, when I buy this building, I 

139
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,740
thought I was making an 
investment that was going to go 

140
00:11:38,750 --> 00:11:43,100
up 10 times in value to be able 
to accumulate capital without 

141
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:44,440
robbing a bank. 
Yeah. 

142
00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:48,040
To start something else, which I
didn't know what was going to be

143
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:48,950
about. 
OK. 

144
00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:56,260
Which is like what happens when 
you meet somebody of the 

145
00:11:56,270 --> 00:11:59,120
opposite sex. 
Can you invite? 

146
00:11:59,890 --> 00:12:03,970
Do you have a drink? 
And you know how it's going to 

147
00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:06,190
end? 
But your idea is not getting 

148
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,770
married and having three 
children. 

149
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,370
It's something else. 
I didn't, I didn't know this 

150
00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:14,510
would evolve into the, the this 
foundation of your, of your 

151
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,430
marriage. 
That was the foundation of 

152
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,130
marriage because I met my wife 
by accident. 

153
00:12:20,180 --> 00:12:24,580
Having a drink. 
No invite to the party I was not

154
00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:29,470
going to go to. 
OK, but 2 blocks away from this 

155
00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:32,740
building I'm talking about. 
Yes, and the same side of the 

156
00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:36,090
beach. 
And we met and we started going 

157
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:43,460
to run and we've been married 
now 4, 63 years, and we met 70 

158
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:46,130
years ago. 
So that was the same situation. 

159
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,260
Yeah. 
Accident. 

160
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,850
So I'm not going to say that I I
bought the building because I 

161
00:12:51,860 --> 00:12:54,900
had faith in accidents, but 
that's the way it happened. 

162
00:12:54,910 --> 00:13:00,030
Yes, when I went in. 
Asshole. 

163
00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:07,870
I watched a had to go in through
the through the balcony with the

164
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:13,080
ladder because the owners never 
came in, never came to open the 

165
00:13:13,090 --> 00:13:18,150
gate. 
And when I saw what what I what 

166
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,100
I had there, I said this is all 
done. 

167
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:30,000
And when people visit, we have 
36,000 visitors a year and 50% 

168
00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:34,410
are foreigners and 20% of 
passengers are 6 star. 

169
00:13:35,450 --> 00:13:40,380
Messages of what? 
Passengers of boats, ships. 

170
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:47,480
Yeah, 6 star ships that cost 
$1000 a night and they come 

171
00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:53,380
there because it's a place to 
see and they say they've never 

172
00:13:53,390 --> 00:13:58,910
seen something like this. 
And what is it what they see? 

173
00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:05,720
They see the love and care that 
was put into putting that up. 

174
00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:13,320
Now you can impress with a 
golden ring with diamond ring 

175
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,730
over the flower, a flower that's
unique. 

176
00:14:19,010 --> 00:14:23,410
Well, this turned to me a unique
piece of. 

177
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:30,940
Really, If you want to define 
it, well, it's a a singular 

178
00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:33,220
object. 
There's a book by. 

179
00:14:33,930 --> 00:14:40,030
I don't know if you heard about 
it or read about it by both 

180
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:48,570
Bodyguard and it's about the 
combination of philosophy and 

181
00:14:48,580 --> 00:14:54,230
architecture. 
And they talk about what makes 

182
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,430
an object singular, what it 
carries. 

183
00:14:58,820 --> 00:15:04,110
And it, they say it carries the 
uniqueness of the memory. 

184
00:15:05,410 --> 00:15:08,040
And this had that already there,
right? 

185
00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:10,090
But I didn't. 
I hadn't read the book. 

186
00:15:11,220 --> 00:15:14,640
That book was printed in the 
year 2000 in Argentina. 

187
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,400
I read in the year 2003 but I 
started this in 1985. 

188
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:27,920
So in 1985 I found myself were 
the piece of trash which was 

189
00:15:27,930 --> 00:15:31,330
trash for everybody. 
You had to knock it down, which 

190
00:15:31,340 --> 00:15:33,590
you couldn't because it was a 
preservation area. 

191
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:41,500
It was a heritage. 
And that was where Destiny comes

192
00:15:41,510 --> 00:15:49,210
in, because when I talked about 
meeting somebody, yeah, to to 

193
00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:52,360
come out, well, you have to have
the luck of meeting the right 

194
00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,500
person. 
If it's not the right person, it

195
00:15:55,510 --> 00:15:58,840
can be not so good or disaster. 
Yes. 

196
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,710
So I found this in the stage of 
my life where I was needing 

197
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,770
something new and something new 
where I could apply my 

198
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:12,390
knowledge. 
Am I experience? 

199
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:21,630
I had a sort of a experience in 
industry, had done a couple of 

200
00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:25,780
how's the modulations? 
Well done. 

201
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:30,010
Good, good design. 
Yeah, there myself. 

202
00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:34,370
So I thought I can do this, 
restore this house. 

203
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,110
But at this at the time of the 
year, you're under the 

204
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,490
impression all you're doing is a
restoration to the house. 

205
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,770
Not even that. 
I was doing an investment then. 

206
00:16:44,780 --> 00:16:46,930
No, I follow. 
But what I what I was doing with

207
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,630
this is that at this point you 
didn't even know what existed 

208
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,110
yet. 
No, all you knew is what you saw

209
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,610
at face value. 
Which was the best of the city? 

210
00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:57,630
That was my right wording, 
right? 

211
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,110
So I find a Royce. 
Royce in the street. 

212
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:06,200
I, I really, I see a girl, a 
ruined car in the street without

213
00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:07,970
even knowing it's a Royce. 
Royce, right? 

214
00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:12,109
And then I say how nice it is. 
Yes. 

215
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,869
It's a piece of art. 
Let's restore it now. 

216
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,170
Later on I discovered they 
belonged to the King of England.

217
00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:25,940
That's an added value. 
But you did know that you need, 

218
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,710
you knew it was a car, That's 
all. 

219
00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:32,130
Yeah, but every everybody saw 
that car not worth anything 

220
00:17:32,220 --> 00:17:38,310
because it was destroyed. 
So when I go in, I understood 

221
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,330
the value of that. 
The fundamental value was the 

222
00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:44,830
past and it was beautiful. 
The Watchtower. 

223
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:53,810
Right away I decided to restore 
it and then serendipity appears.

224
00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,820
Well, we're trying to test the 
soil to be able to see how we 

225
00:18:00,830 --> 00:18:06,690
can hold the structure. 
The water just doesn't stop 

226
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:14,560
flowing, Goes and goes and goes.
So we make a hole and with 

227
00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:20,200
discover old bricks in the shape
of a Walt. 

228
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:26,150
And the size of that was. 
Let's see, 50 centimetres, 40 

229
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,270
centimeters is nothing, just the
whole and you could see about 

230
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,850
not more than 40cm deep. 
The the rest was full of rubble 

231
00:18:36,140 --> 00:18:40,500
when I went into the building. 
The building itself had rubble 

232
00:18:40,570 --> 00:18:45,030
under the arches. 3 metres high,
4 meters high. 

233
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,550
So you had to get rid of all 
that to clean up. 

234
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,570
That took a long time. 
When we're testing the floor, we

235
00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:56,450
discover the tunnel. 
Hold on. 

236
00:18:56,460 --> 00:18:58,710
When you say a long time, what 
does that mean? 

237
00:18:58,930 --> 00:19:00,770
Is it six months? 
Is. 

238
00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:06,080
It no two to three months. 
OK, OK. 

239
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,590
There was cleaned up etcetera 
and we have this accident, Yeah,

240
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,750
had to call an engineer to check
everything and then see what 

241
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,630
happens. 
Got it. 

242
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,680
OK. 
At that time I had knocked it 

243
00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:22,830
working with me. 
Then we separated for one simple

244
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:31,850
reason. 
Uh, when you're a dentist, you 

245
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:35,160
look at ladies teeth, you don't 
look at their legs. 

246
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,170
This is a real experience of 
mine because I had a friend who 

247
00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:42,280
was a dentist. 
Very good one. 

248
00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:46,420
And what do you say? 
Did you see her teeth? 

249
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,670
You see her teeth, which is a 
natural situation. 

250
00:19:50,740 --> 00:19:56,890
Yeah, we started this as an 
architectural project, the 

251
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,640
restoration of a house. 
But what happened? 

252
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,490
When I discovered the tunnel, 
the situation changed. 

253
00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:11,540
Had another object that would 
making in the complex that was 

254
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:18,950
making this whole singular 
object a different match of 

255
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,000
study. 
We're going from architecture to

256
00:20:23,010 --> 00:20:29,350
archaeology, so that time I got 
hold of people to make a caracal

257
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:35,030
survey of the building, got a 
group of people, they did it. 

258
00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:43,960
And in the meantime, they 
uncovered part of the the ruins.

259
00:20:45,370 --> 00:20:54,200
But it's message official. 
And then I went to England to 

260
00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:57,740
visit my sister-in-law, OK. 
And for the first time in 

261
00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:03,470
England, they have an exhibition
of urban archaeology which 

262
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,530
started in London in 1922. 
OK. 

263
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:09,000
And I'm in Devon when my sister 
nor my wife. 

264
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,930
What are the chances? 
And I said, look, let's go and 

265
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:17,470
see this exhibition. 
Sure. 

266
00:21:18,270 --> 00:21:19,880
She lived in Oxford. 
Yeah. 

267
00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:23,960
So instead of going to the 
airport directly, we went to 

268
00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:28,620
London, visited exhibition, left
the luggage I don't know in the 

269
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:31,500
station some and visited 
exhibition. 

270
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:36,520
When I saw the exhibition, I 
said, my God, what we have, the 

271
00:21:36,530 --> 00:21:40,340
most important thing is not the 
past of the building, it was 

272
00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:46,340
underneath. 
And suddenly the axis of the 

273
00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:52,480
whole project change. 
We go under and I came back, I 

274
00:21:52,490 --> 00:21:55,390
talked to the people, had the 
technological works and they 

275
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,210
said well, we've already done 
this is another project. 

276
00:21:59,530 --> 00:22:05,350
And I I'm still young and 87. 
I was younger then, so still 

277
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:09,090
thought the people were like me 
that would go for illusions, not

278
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:10,250
only for money. 
Yes. 

279
00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:12,810
So I said, you know what, it's 
alright, I'll get somebody else 

280
00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:14,980
sign that everything is 
finished. 

281
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:19,560
And then by accident, somebody 
who was had excavated the 

282
00:22:19,570 --> 00:22:25,790
government park and found out 
sort of the the House of one of 

283
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,680
the big dictators and and and 
and Argentina. 

284
00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:38,710
And then 18 30s came along and 
he said he would like to 

285
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,540
excavate. 
Some things were printed of it 

286
00:22:41,550 --> 00:22:43,430
in the newspaper about 
discoveries. 

287
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:50,070
So I said yes and I decided 
after this visit to excavate the

288
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,460
whole building. 
That is, I had an 18, eighteen, 

289
00:22:53,470 --> 00:23:03,290
130 building, 60 metres long, 50
metres in which and two stories 

290
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,880
of let's say 5 meters each and 
had to make a hole under it. 

291
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,030
That structure was mounted on 
hard earth because in Buenos 

292
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:21,230
Aires you don't have any rocks, 
so we had to, but concrete 

293
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,100
pillars maintain everything that
they had to make a hole under 

294
00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:31,350
the whole building, like a 
garage with columns to uncover 

295
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,610
the ruins under it. 
And how did you know that when 

296
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:40,480
you were gonna go make these 
concrete pillars that you 

297
00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:43,630
weren't going to disrupt 
anything else? 

298
00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:51,330
Very simple when you go to the 
dentist and you have a tooth 

299
00:23:51,340 --> 00:23:52,470
fixed. 
Yeah. 

300
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,290
He doesn't destroy your mouth. 
You hope not. 

301
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,470
No, normally whether when 
they're good enough, they don't.

302
00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:04,470
I mean, I just went to the 
dentist last week and I had 

303
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,670
someone that was like in 
training working on my teeth. 

304
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,930
OK, let me tell you, I gave some
feedback after that. 

305
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,010
OK, you know what you should you
should have tried with me. 

306
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:20,000
There's the anomaly. 
So no head engineer? 

307
00:24:20,010 --> 00:24:21,360
Very good engineer. 
Yeah. 

308
00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:24,820
Shark Springier, but everything 
was done by hand. 

309
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:28,540
So, so were they. 
What was the structural engineer

310
00:24:28,550 --> 00:24:31,740
working alongside? 
They were gonna work alongside 

311
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:34,160
the excavator, obviously. 
No excavator? 

312
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:37,330
No, you didn't by hand. 
But that's what I mean. 

313
00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:40,830
So they're gonna work in tandem 
to understand the program. 

314
00:24:41,030 --> 00:24:44,940
But did you also have another 
archaeologist that was a part of

315
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:46,840
this program? 
It no the cologist. 

316
00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:48,600
That's gone. 
Gone. 

317
00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:50,270
I wasn't sure if you brought in 
someone else. 

318
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,360
At this no, no, OK, OK when they
were gone. 

319
00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:57,350
Then I had everything OK when 
they were gone, they worked for 

320
00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:59,570
a couple of months, so this 
lasted a long time. 

321
00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:02,650
So it was by the time I 
excavated one part. 

322
00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:08,120
The first part I excavated was 
simple because it was an 1830 

323
00:25:08,130 --> 00:25:13,980
system with 30,000 metres of 
capacity and a French ceramic 

324
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:17,080
floor. 
An 18. 30 system. 

325
00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:19,880
From 1830, yeah. 
How? 

326
00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:25,040
How did they know was it was? 
Because the we had recordings of

327
00:25:25,050 --> 00:25:31,850
the of testaments of the House. 
So we knew that by 1860 they had

328
00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:34,350
a family with six slaves living 
there. 

329
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,330
OK. 
And by the type of system and 

330
00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:42,130
the people that hiccuped, Yeah, 
that was a water system to 

331
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:44,530
collect the water from the roof.
Yep. 

332
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:50,710
So we had the whole system was 
recovered and that was done the 

333
00:25:50,780 --> 00:25:55,630
the first stage. 
And after that, I decided to 

334
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,570
exhibit the whole thing. 
Now this is very similar. 

335
00:26:00,580 --> 00:26:06,740
When I go back to the idea of 
education, it's because when 

336
00:26:06,750 --> 00:26:14,210
you're driving on 100 and 100 
miles an hour, uh, for five 

337
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:19,950
hours, then suddenly somebody 
tells you about parking a car 

338
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,670
and there's about almost no 
space. 

339
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:28,860
You got each centimeters on each
side and end 8 centimeters. 

340
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:32,060
Well, it have to do a lot of 
maneuvering. 

341
00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:36,060
You lost the knack of that 
because you, you're driving 100 

342
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:40,570
miles constantly. 
Yeah, into this world where 

343
00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:45,560
everything goes fast. 
It's difficult to understand the

344
00:26:45,950 --> 00:26:51,220
advantage of driving slowly this
project, and that was 

345
00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:53,510
serendipity. 
Again, if I would have 

346
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,180
discovered everything at the 
beginning, if I would have had 

347
00:26:57,190 --> 00:27:00,840
the money at the beginning for 
everything, if everything would 

348
00:27:00,850 --> 00:27:06,240
have been let's say go to the 
bank, get a check, get 5 

349
00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:12,400
companies and do this. 
You cannot do this when I had, 

350
00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:20,140
uh, presence of Banks having an 
event there and ask him to give 

351
00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:27,370
a little speech and I said, 
look, uh, you're accustomed to 

352
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,250
define a project based on that 
return. 

353
00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:36,050
You calculate the interest rate,
the return, etcetera, and then 

354
00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:38,580
you make a decision of 
investing. 

355
00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:43,370
Investing what money? 
That's what you have in the 

356
00:27:43,380 --> 00:27:46,390
bank. 
With all the money you have in 

357
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,340
the banks, you cannot do this 
project because with this 

358
00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:54,670
project what you need is time. 
Yes, and skill. 

359
00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:59,700
Skill you could. 
Skill you could pay. 

360
00:27:59,770 --> 00:28:04,300
You can pay if you have the 
patience, but you have to have 

361
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:09,460
somebody that understands that 
this cannot be done fast. 

362
00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:12,570
Yes, the order. 
And the part of that, there's 

363
00:28:12,580 --> 00:28:19,790
one thing when you said skill, a
skill of 1 profession, but here 

364
00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:24,820
you need the knowledge of many 
professions because if you do 

365
00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:27,980
one step in front of the other 
one, yeah, the whole thing 

366
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:30,140
collapses. 
Show. 

367
00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:35,700
From the beginning I understood 
that the fundamental value is 

368
00:28:35,710 --> 00:28:43,360
preserving what I had found, and
for 11 years I did this without 

369
00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:49,020
knowing how I'm going to use it.
But people don't understand and 

370
00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:52,880
they say we don't understand the
commercial sense of this. 

371
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:59,760
And I say tell me something, 
when you have a kid, do you have

372
00:28:59,770 --> 00:29:02,370
a commercial sense in having a 
kid? 

373
00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:06,060
You'll be spending money in 
education, up keeping, etcetera,

374
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:08,680
etcetera. 
He'll take room in your house. 

375
00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:12,310
What's the advantage? 
Well, really, I would like to 

376
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,020
have a kid. 
OK, fine. 

377
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:17,390
You had a kid. 
What do you do with a kid? 

378
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,870
Educate him. 
And that's exactly what I did. 

379
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:27,710
So, as from the beginning we're 
now had not even excavated, I 

380
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,100
started buying books. 
What sort of books? 

381
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:39,650
Well, you have a kid and you 
imagine it's gonna be cold in 

382
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:42,770
winter. 
You'll be needing clothing. 

383
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:50,090
You buy winter clothes and what 
size doesn't matter the size 

384
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,980
he'll be growing. 
You know he's a girl or boy. 

385
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:57,420
That's a big definition. 
Fine, if you know this, actually

386
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:03,050
you know what type of clothing 
you're gonna buy, correct? 

387
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,970
If it's undefined, then you also
know. 

388
00:30:08,260 --> 00:30:11,440
But you you have to have some 
knowledge to know in which 

389
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:13,360
direction you're going. 
Correct. 

390
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:19,500
So what sort of books did I buy?
Books that I understood would 

391
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:26,100
mean an acid to be able to tell 
the story of what happened 

392
00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:30,110
there, right? 
But are you a historian? 

393
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,310
No. 
Do you need to be? 

394
00:30:33,170 --> 00:30:35,220
I'm a chemist, right? 
Fine. 

395
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,830
What? 
You know that you need being a 

396
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,100
chemist? 
Yeah, well, you need formulas. 

397
00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:48,870
Your formulas we are calculating
ways of analysis, analyzing 

398
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:53,440
fine. 
I bought all books that had the 

399
00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:58,290
information of the parts of the 
city, so much so that they got 

400
00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,790
to to get city council's 
resolutions. 

401
00:31:02,690 --> 00:31:15,870
I'll Wait 16 Oh Hundred 1689, 
1700, Reprinted in 1890, plus 

402
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,110
other old books. 
Reprinted in 1895, it's almost 

403
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,810
300 years later, or 200 years. 
Later, yes. 

404
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:29,140
And, uh, people when they see 
the library, which is part of 

405
00:31:29,150 --> 00:31:36,130
the museum today, see is this a 
or lovely, lovely and tell me 

406
00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:40,720
something, can people visit? 
Said no this is a private 

407
00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:43,200
library. 
But I tell you something these 

408
00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:46,220
books and they say well but this
have a value. 

409
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:53,440
This was not bored because of 
the value, it was bought because

410
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:57,940
of the content. 
These books surely you can find 

411
00:31:58,030 --> 00:32:03,330
in big libraries. 
What you will not find is the 

412
00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:08,310
series of books attend assembled
in such a way they are useful to

413
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,450
tell the story or what happened 
here, right? 

414
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:18,660
Or the parts of the city that 
is, uh, you work in leather, but

415
00:32:18,670 --> 00:32:21,440
you're doing lady shoes or 
saddles. 

416
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,590
It's not the same tool, right? 
I bought the tools that I needed

417
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,150
for that shoe, which we had 
yeah. 

418
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:34,970
So from the beginning, the idea 
of giving extreme quality and 

419
00:32:34,980 --> 00:32:41,510
detail to the project was there 
and that goes into the unwork, 

420
00:32:41,860 --> 00:32:46,760
the brickwork, etcetera and the 
polishing of the concrete. 

421
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:54,750
Did you so when you were getting
into the depths of the, we'll 

422
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,630
call, you know, the start of the
restoration of this work? 

423
00:32:58,550 --> 00:33:05,430
There are there are Masons and 
then there are specialized 

424
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:12,050
Masons and there are people that
can do concrete work and there's

425
00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:15,070
people that can do specialized 
concrete restoration and work. 

426
00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:21,000
So how were you able to navigate
finding the right? 

427
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,750
That group does not exist. 
I created that group, so much so

428
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,590
that many years later, Yeah, 
when the building was almost 

429
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,790
finished. 
I see. 

430
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,910
Almost finished because it's 
three buildings, the whole 

431
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,510
complex. 
And the first was first project 

432
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,870
started in 1985, finished 2000. 
Yeah, the second one started in 

433
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:54,160
1994. 
I finished 2004 and the room was

434
00:33:54,270 --> 00:34:02,220
finished in 2006. 
In the meantime, in the first 

435
00:34:02,230 --> 00:34:06,650
building, it was all learning. 
It's like your first recording 

436
00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:11,600
course in the 100th recording is
just sitting down and having a 

437
00:34:11,610 --> 00:34:13,659
drink and going with the 
recording. 

438
00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:16,139
It's already I've got a system. 
I will. 

439
00:34:16,150 --> 00:34:18,750
I mean, I wish that it was that 
simple all the time. 

440
00:34:18,830 --> 00:34:21,060
Yeah, but not. 
Not always, but yes. 

441
00:34:21,469 --> 00:34:24,080
It's simpler than the first 
time, definitely. 100%. 

442
00:34:24,330 --> 00:34:27,520
First time you don't even know 
if it's going to work to tell 

443
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:30,980
you something. 
For example, definitions. 

444
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:37,739
Well, definitions of what to do 
with the old plaster on the 

445
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:41,630
walls. 
If you look at the photographs, 

446
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,639
I suppose you've seen them. 
I don't know if you have, you're

447
00:34:44,650 --> 00:34:48,510
going to see that. 
You see the bricks and you can 

448
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,510
see the shape of the bricks and 
there's some areas that have old

449
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:56,679
plaster. 
When I went in, everything was 

450
00:34:57,090 --> 00:35:06,770
in silence, in ruins, and that 
was something was dead. 

451
00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:11,590
Once I started restoring, 
cleaning up, etcetera. 

452
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,540
And we were already in the phase
of restoration and the basement 

453
00:35:15,550 --> 00:35:20,080
was created to contain the ruins
because it's not a basis that 

454
00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:24,530
existed as a whole that we did 
to convert into a museum. 

455
00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:29,310
And to interrupt this was, I'm 
going to tell you later about 

456
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,280
the brickwork because this is 
very important. 

457
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:41,450
We call it a museum. 
Museum normally is a the modern 

458
00:35:41,460 --> 00:35:49,430
world it's building that's 
designed to contain. 

459
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,510
Contents. 
Contain supposedly art or yes, 

460
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,390
part of the past. 
Yes. 

461
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,900
That is bought from somewhere 
else. 

462
00:35:59,910 --> 00:36:02,260
Correct, it's not the physical 
place itself. 

463
00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:08,210
And the the content normally is 
not totally from there. 

464
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:11,180
Correct. 
In many cases, not at all from 

465
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:12,470
there. 
That's why they have to give 

466
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,280
back to Greece and Turkey, that 
we have to give back, etcetera. 

467
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,210
Yes. 
When I started this, I was 

468
00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:23,410
buying a plot of land to me. 
Yeah, make a business. 

469
00:36:23,420 --> 00:36:26,370
Idea I love where I love how you
just describe what you just 

470
00:36:26,380 --> 00:36:29,210
described because anyone 
listening right now, you can 

471
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:32,510
appreciate where we're about to 
go, go, go Sorry for. 

472
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,380
Interrupt. 
No, I love it because this is 

473
00:36:37,580 --> 00:36:42,530
this project is about feel 
emotional love. 

474
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,490
Yes. 
And the tool has been the 

475
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,750
restoration of a building which 
ended up in restoring the 

476
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,470
tunnels and restoring the memory
of the city. 

477
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,090
Yeah, but really, is that? 
It's, but you're also, I mean, 

478
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,530
in an abstract method of 
describing it as well without 

479
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:06,030
having been there myself and I 
can't tell you now how much I 

480
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,610
would look forward to coming and
seeing this. 

481
00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:12,240
But the the other major 
difference between describing 

482
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:17,210
the traditional museum and what 
you what you have uncovered is 

483
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:22,090
that in museums it's generally 
non tactile. 

484
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:30,450
You can't feel a wall, You can't
appreciate the artistry of the 

485
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,980
of the artifact that you see in 
front of you. 

486
00:37:32,990 --> 00:37:36,110
It is behind glass. 
There are lights on it. 

487
00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:40,490
You don't walk through it and 
experience this immersive 

488
00:37:41,580 --> 00:37:45,580
experience that you would then 
experience when you're going 

489
00:37:45,590 --> 00:37:50,240
from grade and natural light to 
all of a sudden descending into 

490
00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:55,320
an underworld that is completely
different, full of texture. 

491
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,430
You cannot touch it because 
that's what we say. 

492
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:02,600
Please do not touch the bricks 
because you touch the brakes and

493
00:38:02,610 --> 00:38:05,510
then destroyed. 
People understand that, but you 

494
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,540
have the physical feeling. 
That's what I that's what I'm 

495
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:10,910
describing. 
I'm I, I don't mean about 

496
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,630
physically touching it. 
I mean that like when you see 

497
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,100
that wall, you know what that 
wall feels like. 

498
00:38:17,110 --> 00:38:19,680
You felt brick before you can 
appreciate it. 

499
00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:22,520
You're in the you when you're in
the machinery. 

500
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:26,170
In you are in the glass case 
with the artifacts. 

501
00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:28,270
Yeah, you. 
Yeah, yeah. 

502
00:38:28,330 --> 00:38:32,210
Because you got you got was 
going back to the 1700s 

503
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:40,760
assistant in 1830 and and then 
when I was ready, because we 

504
00:38:40,770 --> 00:38:44,610
went from the stage from 
restoring the house, recovering 

505
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:47,090
down the ground, Yeah, 
recovering the history. 

506
00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:53,670
And now we were in the detail of
how to do the finishing. 

507
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,510
Yeah. 
And for 11 years, while I was 

508
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,090
doing that, I didn't know what 
the kid is going to work as. 

509
00:39:04,060 --> 00:39:08,250
I was giving him education, so I
didn't know he was going to be a

510
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:15,710
cobbler or surgeon or scientist.
You have to give him a very 

511
00:39:16,490 --> 00:39:22,830
ample education to be able to 
fulfill all those fields. 

512
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,630
And and and a runway to 
determine are the wings gonna 

513
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,650
stay closed or are they gonna 
open up? 

514
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:33,290
But but one thing was true from 
the beginning. 

515
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:35,440
This was a commercial project, 
right? 

516
00:39:36,130 --> 00:39:42,380
Had to have an income to be able
to support itself and give a 

517
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:49,790
certain profit. 
Now there's where at the word 

518
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,930
will come in that defines the 
project, which I won't tell you 

519
00:39:52,940 --> 00:39:54,450
yet. 
I'll tell you at the end that's 

520
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:58,320
right. 
But the interesting thing was 

521
00:39:58,330 --> 00:40:03,690
that. 
Comparing to the CEO that says I

522
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:06,160
do not understand the commercial
purpose. 

523
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,810
This did not have a commercial 
product purpose. 

524
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,870
Yep, it had a commercial 
commercial need, but not 

525
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,810
purpose, which is not the same. 
It's totally different. 

526
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,080
Why? 
Because you're not doing this to

527
00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:25,860
make money. 
If you want doing this to make 

528
00:40:25,870 --> 00:40:27,960
money, you do it the cheapest 
way, the fastest way. 

529
00:40:28,030 --> 00:40:32,380
It was not the case. 
It was the best way, but in 

530
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:43,030
spite of that idealistic the 
topic purpose had to make sense 

531
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,370
commercially. 
Right. 

532
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:52,360
So I had to do turn this into 
something that makes sense now. 

533
00:40:53,210 --> 00:40:58,060
You're not going to put a 
parking place in there or a fuel

534
00:40:58,070 --> 00:41:03,170
station or drill, drill a hole 
to do fracking. 

535
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,630
It was sort of a historical 
area. 

536
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:08,900
You couldn't do all that. 
Yeah. 

537
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:17,220
What could you do? 
Well, tourism wasn't logical 

538
00:41:18,330 --> 00:41:24,910
objective and a banquet hall 
that would be able to fit in 

539
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:31,020
well without disturbing any of 
the conditions of preservation. 

540
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:37,760
Now, while I was doing this, 
that idea only appeared 11 years

541
00:41:37,770 --> 00:41:42,530
later. 
After 11 years, I had already 

542
00:41:43,630 --> 00:41:49,100
gone into architecture. 
Now Ghana and Turkey check to 

543
00:41:49,110 --> 00:41:56,540
the same way. 
Uh, an adventure goes to their 

544
00:41:56,550 --> 00:42:00,760
wrist. 
He hasn't gone to learn skiing 

545
00:42:01,550 --> 00:42:06,130
or mountaineering anywhere else.
You just went to The Everest, 

546
00:42:06,750 --> 00:42:11,500
but he stayed in The Everest for
25 years working with the Shadow

547
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:15,420
Pals. 
But you know what, by the time 

548
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:19,410
the explorers come in and they 
have to stay two months to, you 

549
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:21,970
gotta compensate the height, 
etcetera. 

550
00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:25,250
Yeah, he's been there 25 years. 
He's seen everything. 

551
00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:27,290
He knows everything. 
He's he's almost a Sherpa. 

552
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:33,130
So I had the feeling that 
building I understood about 

553
00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:38,640
architecture, about they shine. 
I learned through through the 

554
00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:42,780
experience of what I had read 
applied to that this is a 

555
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:47,440
handicapped kid, not a kid that 
goes various and we're going to 

556
00:42:47,450 --> 00:42:50,860
climb. 
He's got a leg missing, OK, He 

557
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:52,610
can't go up. 
That's what you think. 

558
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,570
This kid has been there for 25 
years. 

559
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,140
He's learned how to walk in the 
medias and he knows what the 

560
00:43:00,150 --> 00:43:01,960
height is and the problems, 
etcetera. 

561
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,670
Maybe he's not going to be the 
best. 

562
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:08,910
I'm not the first, but he'll 
handle the situation. 

563
00:43:08,980 --> 00:43:13,130
Yes, we learn how to handle the 
situation in this building. 

564
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,990
For example, before we went into
the application of everything, 

565
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,050
because that was the end that 
took. 

566
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:23,250
This took 25 years and now in 
December, it was 40 years. 

567
00:43:23,260 --> 00:43:25,540
I started this project. 
I've been going there for every 

568
00:43:25,550 --> 00:43:29,590
year, for every day and 
Saturdays and Sundays when they 

569
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,920
had to put something that was 
delicate air conditioning, 

570
00:43:32,970 --> 00:43:37,520
everything, and then photograph 
the whole project from the 

571
00:43:37,530 --> 00:43:40,880
beginning. 
I have 1000 photographs and of 

572
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:43,700
those photographs my wife 
painted many of them. 

573
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:49,720
So we have a sort of a art area 
and now we have a art gallery 

574
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:53,060
with her paintings which are 
part of the photographs, not too

575
00:43:53,070 --> 00:43:56,540
many, and the rest, the 
paintings that she does. 

576
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,590
So what I was doing in this 
process, I had a visit of 

577
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:09,430
somebody who belonged to the 
family that built the first 

578
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:17,850
little house there, 1780s. 
I was able to find the first 

579
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:23,080
escrow of 1689 in the National 
Archives. 

580
00:44:24,060 --> 00:44:28,400
That took me 3 months personally
every afternoon to go there and 

581
00:44:28,410 --> 00:44:32,710
find out now what? 
What value does it have? 

582
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,930
I did not know you don't learn 
how to write a poem. 

583
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:43,130
You learn letters and then when 
you learn the letters you 

584
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:46,570
understand the first sentence, 
which is normally a mother or 

585
00:44:46,580 --> 00:44:52,010
something like that and why you 
learn to write mother. 

586
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:57,120
That's what people do. 
But then you will sentences with

587
00:44:57,130 --> 00:45:02,950
that then freezes and then you 
can write a book or not, you can

588
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,750
express yourself. 
So it's not the immediate 

589
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,370
result. 
So why did we need all those 

590
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:11,750
documents? 
For one simple reason. 

591
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:17,680
Because when I saw oils to shell
or to Axon, I had a chemist on 

592
00:45:17,690 --> 00:45:21,230
the other side. 
He had equipment better than 

593
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,320
mine, right? 
And he would control what I was 

594
00:45:24,330 --> 00:45:28,070
delivering, right? 
And in my whole professional 

595
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,990
life, nobody's sending me a 
product back. 

596
00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:37,600
And the three cases where they 
did send it back, they were 

597
00:45:37,610 --> 00:45:43,080
wrong. 
Not that I'm better than they 

598
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:49,190
are. 
I cannot resist a mistake 

599
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:55,480
because I'm small. 
So if X and a shell puts up a 

600
00:45:55,490 --> 00:45:59,390
roofing which they say will last
for 30 years, which they did 

601
00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:04,680
here in Canada, and then it 
ended up that it doesn't last 30

602
00:46:04,690 --> 00:46:08,730
years and it had a. 
A problem. 

603
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:11,570
Glass. 
Shoot, yeah, they can deal with 

604
00:46:11,580 --> 00:46:13,590
that because they're big enough 
to be able to manage it. 

605
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,210
I lose, I lose. 
I lose my customer. 100%. 

606
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,570
I lose, of course, so I could 
never afford it. 

607
00:46:20,580 --> 00:46:24,530
Not that I want to, it's not in 
my spirit, but maybe. 

608
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:26,410
Well, if you're in a hurry, 
might slip. 

609
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,990
I can't sleep, so I used to 
control the production. 

610
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:38,190
When it was finished I went into
the tank, into the tank before 

611
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:44,640
loading the truck and then while
I loaded the truck. 3 controls 

612
00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:49,570
and I did them myself. 
Had no problems. 

613
00:46:50,450 --> 00:46:55,530
Well, imagine that somebody came
to historical place and I said 

614
00:46:55,540 --> 00:46:58,740
something. 
It could be an historian, yeah, 

615
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:05,150
who had all the data and they 
could say, well, yes, and it did

616
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,750
happen. 
It did happen that somebody came

617
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,840
from uh not because I'm afraid 
of making a mistake, but if you,

618
00:47:15,890 --> 00:47:19,100
you study the whole lesson 
properly, the possibilities are 

619
00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:22,830
not being approved yeah a low 
yes Normally you, you're going 

620
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,070
to get a 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 yes 
fine. 

621
00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:28,680
I would love to get a 10, but at
least I'm not going to get a 

622
00:47:28,690 --> 00:47:33,420
four now because I, because I I 
want to get a 10 correct So I'm 

623
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:35,900
not that good. 
I want to get a 10 and I get 7. 

624
00:47:35,970 --> 00:47:39,620
OK but at least I can have an 
excuse. 

625
00:47:39,630 --> 00:47:42,410
It's so. 
It's possible you have you 

626
00:47:42,420 --> 00:47:44,680
haven't lost the plot. 
Exactly. 

627
00:47:45,090 --> 00:47:52,510
So one day one person came in 
and I saw them show them a glass

628
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,590
case with elements of the past. 
And then I was talking about the

629
00:47:58,970 --> 00:48:06,630
past, the building and was 
talking about who had been the 

630
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,900
owner on the first square when 
he got it from the founder of 

631
00:48:12,910 --> 00:48:20,700
the city. 
And he tells me, listen, this 

632
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:30,090
gentleman, one Gonzalez, he was 
not in the list of the founders 

633
00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:39,320
of the city. 
I said well, but he's in the 

634
00:48:39,330 --> 00:48:51,800
escrow and he's in a drawing 15,
80 sure thing went on. 

635
00:48:52,980 --> 00:48:59,700
And then I decided when I go to 
visit my brother in Spain, I go 

636
00:48:59,710 --> 00:49:04,320
to the National Archives in 
Seville and look for the 

637
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:06,950
documentation to see if I could 
find this gentleman. 

638
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:12,510
So I spent a week in Sevilla 
with my wife just before flying 

639
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,900
back to London and and looked at
Juan Gonzalez. 

640
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:19,930
That was her name. 
Listen, listen. 

641
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:23,330
I couldn't find anything that 
could link justify. 

642
00:49:23,340 --> 00:49:25,350
Yeah. 
And suddenly, about 15 minutes 

643
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:33,970
before we leave, dark eyes, my 
wife sees a list of the governor

644
00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:39,030
of the city. 
And because of the hunger and 

645
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:46,680
there's a list of food and it's 
his name, I'm Gonzalez. 

646
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:53,170
So we took that back. 
So in that little detail, you 

647
00:49:53,180 --> 00:49:56,860
see that although this was a 
commercial project, we didn't 

648
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:58,510
know exactly how we're going to 
use it. 

649
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:07,480
But from the beginning, we try 
to convert trash into something 

650
00:50:07,870 --> 00:50:12,560
that has a meaning. 
By the time the whole process 

651
00:50:12,570 --> 00:50:20,950
finished we had a museum. 
Well, as I was putting the glass

652
00:50:21,140 --> 00:50:32,960
on the courtyards, which is 12mm
gas insulated, Uh, the gentleman

653
00:50:32,970 --> 00:50:36,600
who owned the company said tell 
me something. 

654
00:50:36,670 --> 00:50:42,980
Do you have a missiologist too? 
To the layout said we shot ages.

655
00:50:44,180 --> 00:50:48,310
I didn't see what's that but I 
knew but almost said no no no 

656
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:50,140
because my. 
And what is it? 

657
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,150
People that specialize in in in 
in museums in in putting the 

658
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,570
laying out museums, the Musholla
words in Spanish theologist, OK,

659
00:51:01,580 --> 00:51:06,500
it's when you put glass cases, 
how you exhibit, how you 

660
00:51:06,510 --> 00:51:09,430
eliminate, etcetera. 
Especially let's say like a 

661
00:51:10,020 --> 00:51:13,210
industrial engineer. 
Well, it's about museums. 

662
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,760
Got it Said no. 
So every time I visit my son, 

663
00:51:16,810 --> 00:51:21,790
who's been in the stage for 38 
years, he was in LA. 

664
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,600
I used to go to museums and then
started going to the workshop 

665
00:51:27,810 --> 00:51:33,350
and looking at books of museums 
and suddenly I realized what I 

666
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,650
was doing was was alright. 
I didn't see any anything new. 

667
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:41,300
Now I got people from England 
coming and see what they're good

668
00:51:41,310 --> 00:51:44,410
exhibition. 
It is because we integrated the 

669
00:51:44,420 --> 00:51:49,070
architecture into the sign into 
that that is we we educated. 

670
00:51:49,140 --> 00:51:53,240
We learned about education, 
educating our kid with that, 

671
00:51:53,250 --> 00:51:56,550
being a professor, we've been 
studying with, study studying 

672
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,010
for 40 years. 
I keep on studying the world to 

673
00:52:01,260 --> 00:52:05,580
see if I'm going, this is the 
north. 

674
00:52:05,950 --> 00:52:09,460
I'm checking it's still the 
north or the north is being 

675
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:14,540
displaced and magnetic north is 
change in in in the last 40 

676
00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:16,500
years that I've been walking in 
direction right. 

677
00:52:16,510 --> 00:52:19,710
There's been a magnetic 
disturbance, which indicates 

678
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:24,500
that the north is slightly 
there's a slight deviation and 

679
00:52:24,510 --> 00:52:28,230
that training of checking on 
myself. 

680
00:52:28,780 --> 00:52:36,000
The original thought with what I
did, which it's it's it's a road

681
00:52:36,010 --> 00:52:40,460
that I took, but the world I'm 
checking whether the world is 

682
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:46,270
going and Sunday I realize that 
my objective, which was 

683
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,850
ridiculous, not in one field in 
every in every aspect. 

684
00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:55,380
It was ridiculous buying that 
for that money which was given 

685
00:52:55,390 --> 00:52:57,220
away. 
But that was not worth more than

686
00:52:57,230 --> 00:52:59,850
that. 
Not even that to. 

687
00:53:00,020 --> 00:53:05,120
How to use it? 
How to excavate? 

688
00:53:05,370 --> 00:53:13,340
How to design? 
How to 25 years ago the handicap

689
00:53:13,470 --> 00:53:18,070
the restrooms mine are double 
the size or normal 1. 

690
00:53:19,410 --> 00:53:28,690
It's, uh, from there to here 
it's but I have many, many 

691
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:30,380
positions in the restroom. 
Yeah. 

692
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,390
So it was designed and now it's 
25 years that I've finished my 

693
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,600
first building and I go into the
restrooms and when somebody 

694
00:53:39,610 --> 00:53:43,830
comes to do an event, I tell 
them why didn't have a look at 

695
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,240
the restrooms and then you 
understand how this is done. 

696
00:53:47,340 --> 00:53:52,490
And there astonished had people 
coming from the States design 

697
00:53:52,500 --> 00:54:00,970
people A who the organiser 
decided to do the vendor part of

698
00:54:00,980 --> 00:54:05,250
the building itself because of 
the the frames that I had 

699
00:54:05,260 --> 00:54:10,640
designed to put the the screens 
to exhibit. 

700
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:16,320
The screens are 32 inches. 
Now the 32 inches is a small 

701
00:54:16,330 --> 00:54:20,850
screen, right? 
But The thing is in that 

702
00:54:20,860 --> 00:54:26,090
building you have to understand 
to respect the building, the 

703
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:35,980
building has to be the the 
destination of your site. 

704
00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:42,890
So when we do a frame, why do a 
frame the metal, which is all, 

705
00:54:43,220 --> 00:54:47,110
all the metal work has two or 
three different sizes. 

706
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:52,410
And with that I built it's like 
a Lego and it's, it's, it's, 

707
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,730
it's very thick, right? 
It's 9mm thickness. 

708
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:04,830
It's this and, uh, 38 in width 
and that's the frame on the 

709
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,190
screen. 
And then all the stand is done 

710
00:55:07,260 --> 00:55:11,530
with the same metal put in this 
position so you can see through.

711
00:55:11,740 --> 00:55:16,290
So that is that whatever you put
in front of you, which is 

712
00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:21,630
designed goes in front of the 
the wall, lets you see the wall.

713
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:25,360
That's why it would be here. 
You can see the street, right? 

714
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,010
You can see through. 
So basically all the design, the

715
00:55:29,020 --> 00:55:32,280
all the design lets you see 
through, right. 

716
00:55:32,290 --> 00:55:33,890
As a matter from where you're 
looking. 

717
00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:35,690
Got it. 
So you look at all the brick, 

718
00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:37,980
it's all brick. 
It doesn't interfere. 

719
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,750
Well, they decided to do there. 
They they went there. 

720
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:47,730
When they came, somebody came 
and said I don't, you don't 

721
00:55:47,740 --> 00:55:49,360
mind. 
But I took, I was half an hour 

722
00:55:49,370 --> 00:55:51,050
in the restroom taking 
photographs. 

723
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,980
People that do design, it's not 
that. 

724
00:55:55,050 --> 00:56:03,070
It's the the design people 
realize that how light it is, 

725
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:08,350
how it lets you appreciate what 
you want to show right. 

726
00:56:09,110 --> 00:56:13,550
So the the whole trick when 
people ask who designed this, I 

727
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,610
see the building right? 
It's because it's slightly 

728
00:56:17,620 --> 00:56:21,350
handicapped kid that went to the
Everest and you see, tell me 

729
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:22,850
something. 
How? 

730
00:56:22,860 --> 00:56:29,710
How did you sign this walking 
steak for handicapped people? 

731
00:56:30,530 --> 00:56:32,910
I didn't do it. 
The kid did. 

732
00:56:33,740 --> 00:56:36,230
The kid needed this to be able 
to summit. 

733
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:38,910
He figured out what he would 
need to be able to get through 

734
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,250
the the the challenge of what 
was in front of him. 

735
00:56:41,620 --> 00:56:46,330
I think that not to make it 
longer, but this defines how 

736
00:56:46,340 --> 00:56:49,570
everything the design was 
geared. 

737
00:56:49,580 --> 00:56:52,630
Talking about design, not 
talking about the plus stuff, 

738
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,760
which we, we, we started the 
conversation. 

739
00:56:54,770 --> 00:57:00,450
Yes, I went to when I went to 
Spain to, to find about the 

740
00:57:00,460 --> 00:57:03,440
documents that I did. 
Yeah, I spent a whole week 

741
00:57:03,450 --> 00:57:08,880
looking at the walls in Seville,
and I realized that the plaster,

742
00:57:09,580 --> 00:57:15,440
what's new, cover the original 
walls, but it was new. 

743
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:21,200
In my case, I had the old brick.
I had the wrinkles. 

744
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,980
That's wrinkles and that we're 
trying to figure out where do we

745
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:29,860
do with this phase? 
What people would do they do 

746
00:57:29,870 --> 00:57:32,560
today? 
Well, eliminate the wrinkles 

747
00:57:33,070 --> 00:57:38,600
because then you look young. 
Had the opposite situation. 

748
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:42,550
I wanted to keep the wrinkles to
show the past. 

749
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,130
Yes, that's something that now I
tell you and it's it seems. 

750
00:57:45,140 --> 00:57:47,030
Well, don't tell me something 
intelligent. 

751
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,330
This is ridiculously simple. 
It's natural. 

752
00:57:50,290 --> 00:57:53,700
It's not so natural because the 
same time I had plaster. 

753
00:57:53,770 --> 00:57:57,070
What do we do with the plaster? 
To keep it from cracking. 

754
00:57:57,330 --> 00:57:59,700
No. 
And and it was falling off. 

755
00:57:59,740 --> 00:58:04,760
That's that's what I mean to to,
to maintain in in the integrity 

756
00:58:04,770 --> 00:58:09,170
that it has right now. 
That was a very difficult 

757
00:58:09,180 --> 00:58:12,240
decision. 
Took me months, maybe almost a 

758
00:58:12,250 --> 00:58:18,010
year to make a decision after 
visiting Spain and I said just 

759
00:58:18,020 --> 00:58:22,720
out with the plaster that is not
going to stay, has to be taken 

760
00:58:22,730 --> 00:58:28,920
off for that. 
Again serendipity and again 

761
00:58:29,110 --> 00:58:31,240
reward. 
Why? 

762
00:58:31,290 --> 00:58:36,630
Because in one of the walls when
I removed that old Archers 

763
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:42,200
appeared all openings. 
You uncovered more. 

764
00:58:42,210 --> 00:58:45,030
Space. 
No, just just architectural 

765
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,220
features. 
The modifications, Yeah. 

766
00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:49,210
And discovered what had happened
with the walls. 

767
00:58:49,830 --> 00:58:52,420
It's like it's something now 
comes into your place. 

768
00:58:52,430 --> 00:58:52,880
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

769
00:58:52,890 --> 00:58:55,000
And knocks down the walls. 
Yeah. 

770
00:58:55,130 --> 00:58:57,660
He'll find the structure. 
Yeah, he'll find the new 

771
00:58:57,670 --> 00:59:02,680
structure and the other one. 
OK, so so for you it's not 

772
00:59:02,690 --> 00:59:05,020
useful because it's a new 
building, but for us that I was 

773
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:07,400
looking for. 
The I follow so So what you were

774
00:59:07,410 --> 00:59:12,180
uncovering in this scenario, 
this arch, you know it would 

775
00:59:12,190 --> 00:59:14,220
have been a structural support 
for something. 

776
00:59:14,230 --> 00:59:18,280
About no, no, it was a it was an
opening that was closed in. 

777
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:19,580
Ohio. 
It was an opening that. 

778
00:59:19,590 --> 00:59:21,700
Was closed in OK that's very 
common. 

779
00:59:21,710 --> 00:59:25,080
I went to Italy, Yeah, the year 
2000, yeah. 

780
00:59:25,130 --> 00:59:36,180
And it was my 6th birthday and 
we went to Rome and we went to a

781
00:59:36,190 --> 00:59:42,700
party and there I saw something 
that I had discovered in my 

782
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:46,290
project before, which was 
unusual. 

783
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:51,140
It's it's interesting story this
and we haven't got to the to the

784
00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:53,170
wall yet. 
Well, yes, we went to the 

785
00:59:53,180 --> 00:59:55,480
explanation of the wall and then
covering of the arches. 

786
00:59:55,490 --> 00:59:59,950
Yeah, in the first building we 
were for 11 years without 

787
00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:01,400
knowing how we're going to 
follow. 

788
01:00:01,460 --> 01:00:05,230
Yeah, in one side we had the 
bricks. 

789
01:00:06,510 --> 01:00:13,000
Laid straight till you got to 
the hard soil and the opposite 

790
01:00:13,010 --> 01:00:19,790
side I had some arches, ancient 
arches that were filled in with 

791
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,690
bricks. 
Then this way to fill in, and I 

792
01:00:24,700 --> 01:00:30,440
couldn't understand why ten 
years later, 12 years later, 

793
01:00:30,450 --> 01:00:33,160
when we got to the other side, 
when we uncovered all the 

794
01:00:33,170 --> 01:00:38,660
tunnels under the whole square, 
we had walls coming from our 

795
01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:44,050
building and walls coming down 
and building next door. 

796
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:50,850
And then one of them and one of 
the cases, the river was running

797
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,050
and the partition wall was in 
the middle of the riverbed. 

798
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,340
Why is this? 
Because when they did the 

799
01:00:58,350 --> 01:01:03,310
distribution of plots of land in
the city, that was done in 

800
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,840
paper. 
Now you have a depression of a 

801
01:01:06,850 --> 01:01:10,920
river bed that some some days it
floods because it's rainy 

802
01:01:10,930 --> 01:01:14,750
season, then it's dry while you 
just put the columns there. 

803
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:20,900
When this system disappeared 
because they installed the new 

804
01:01:20,910 --> 01:01:25,520
source system in the city, which
runs now under the streets, this

805
01:01:25,530 --> 01:01:28,250
was filled in. 
Well, we uncovered the whole 

806
01:01:28,260 --> 01:01:34,130
thing. 
We realized that in some places 

807
01:01:34,180 --> 01:01:36,910
the arches were put to let the 
water flow. 

808
01:01:37,710 --> 01:01:42,660
Shouldn't the petition was when 
there was an area where you had 

809
01:01:42,730 --> 01:01:47,680
a flow of water coming from one 
side, they put an arch so the 

810
01:01:47,730 --> 01:01:50,400
water would not knock down the 
foundations? 

811
01:01:50,410 --> 01:01:51,790
What's that? 
That's what I was referring to. 

812
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,440
Before that those arches were 
structural arches. 

813
01:01:54,750 --> 01:01:55,630
Exactly. 
They weren't. 

814
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:57,340
They weren't just asthetics that
they were. 

815
01:01:57,350 --> 01:01:59,560
Structured, they went 
underneath, but they went on 

816
01:01:59,570 --> 01:02:01,240
top, which is the one with 
discovered. 

817
01:02:01,430 --> 01:02:04,550
Later. 
OK, the one before, not on the 

818
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,190
ground, but on top, yes, those 
were windows or doors that have 

819
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:14,600
been modified, right. 
So we're sort of gifted with 

820
01:02:14,610 --> 01:02:18,620
that discovery. 
So the whole thing went like 

821
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:21,790
that. 
Actually, so there's two things 

822
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,950
I wanna I wanna say something 
and I wanna ask something so 

823
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:26,770
important worth stating right 
now. 

824
01:02:26,780 --> 01:02:29,480
If if you're if you've been 
following along in this story 

825
01:02:29,490 --> 01:02:34,490
and you can appreciate literally
the depth of the story and the 

826
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:36,470
depth has two meanings. 
Obviously you go figure out 

827
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,840
those meetings are Yeah, there's
plan words if you can appreciate

828
01:02:40,850 --> 01:02:42,940
all of this. 
I have to tell you that you can 

829
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:47,210
one head to our liner notes 
because there will be a link in 

830
01:02:47,220 --> 01:02:51,400
the liner notes of the show with
access to the website associated

831
01:02:51,410 --> 01:02:54,800
with the with the museum. 
But in addition to that, you can

832
01:02:54,810 --> 01:02:59,100
also head over to Instagram. 
They issued for construction pod

833
01:02:59,310 --> 01:03:02,800
on Instagram also liner notes, 
and there will be images of what

834
01:03:02,810 --> 01:03:07,080
we're describing there. 
So you can see the visuals of 

835
01:03:07,090 --> 01:03:11,420
what's been discussed today. 
That will all be there so that 

836
01:03:11,550 --> 01:03:15,690
you can now take the concepts of
what's been discussed and now 

837
01:03:15,790 --> 01:03:18,870
tie it to the visual elements. 
So that was one thing I wanted 

838
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,160
to say. 
So if what you've been trying to

839
01:03:21,170 --> 01:03:24,380
understand is too abstract to 
understand, you'll be able to 

840
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:27,780
now understand it visually. 
Second part I wanted to ask you 

841
01:03:27,790 --> 01:03:37,230
was you uncover all of this 
space underground, does the 

842
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:43,270
museum own the space that 
extends beyond under other 

843
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:48,930
properties or is it a collective
ownership because of the ground 

844
01:03:48,940 --> 01:03:51,250
rights? 
How does that work? 

845
01:03:51,300 --> 01:04:00,260
No, it was the that was quite a 
well the three buildings in the 

846
01:04:00,270 --> 01:04:06,580
process, Yeah. 
And a channel which is part 

847
01:04:06,590 --> 01:04:10,640
under our building, Yes, and 
part our neighbor. 

848
01:04:11,030 --> 01:04:17,280
One neighbor because the other 
part that belongs to the museum 

849
01:04:17,290 --> 01:04:19,780
itself. 
OK, It's a plot of land that was

850
01:04:19,790 --> 01:04:21,500
bought for parking. 
OK. 

851
01:04:22,330 --> 01:04:25,600
When the continuation of the 
tunnel was scouted 11 years 

852
01:04:25,610 --> 01:04:36,260
later, yes, we made a deal with 
our neighbor to consolidate his 

853
01:04:36,330 --> 01:04:38,980
building, which was a tenement 
house. 

854
01:04:39,050 --> 01:04:42,900
Yeah, where they had an 
accident, somebody fell down 

855
01:04:42,910 --> 01:04:46,160
about and it came down. 
So that was very difficult and 

856
01:04:46,170 --> 01:04:50,160
very costly because we had to 
consolidate his building on top 

857
01:04:50,170 --> 01:04:52,620
of the tunnel, which is his 
tunnel, Yes. 

858
01:04:52,990 --> 01:04:57,800
And we got the right of way. 
That is, there's a got an escrow

859
01:04:58,250 --> 01:05:05,540
where you have the right of way 
even if he's the owner. 

860
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,730
I have follow. 
Yeah, but you're the you have 

861
01:05:07,740 --> 01:05:12,250
the right of way for that space.
Yes, hello. 

862
01:05:13,100 --> 01:05:18,420
Yeah, but with within the 
determine width, yes, which 

863
01:05:18,430 --> 01:05:25,380
includes the walls of the tunnel
and depth under that volume 

864
01:05:25,870 --> 01:05:30,500
still belongs to him. 
Now if he wanted to drill a hole

865
01:05:30,510 --> 01:05:36,600
to get oil, he would come would 
have to come through other ways 

866
01:05:36,610 --> 01:05:41,700
because that's historical area. 
So we had to come from below, 

867
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:44,800
which is not feasible. 
So that's the situation. 

868
01:05:44,850 --> 01:05:46,120
OK, OK. 
It's unclear on. 

869
01:05:46,130 --> 01:05:49,900
That that was the situation. 
And how long did that process 

870
01:05:49,910 --> 01:05:53,930
take in the in the midst of all 
of this did like I assume it 

871
01:05:53,940 --> 01:05:58,000
would have taken time to 
establish parameters like 

872
01:05:58,050 --> 01:06:03,320
legally and with? 
But it was the first Esco, the 

873
01:06:03,330 --> 01:06:05,720
first Esco done in the city of 
this type. 

874
01:06:05,770 --> 01:06:09,200
Yeah, it's it's a. 
It never existed before. 

875
01:06:09,210 --> 01:06:11,600
So you essentially set the 
precedent for what this could 

876
01:06:11,610 --> 01:06:16,520
look like on a go forward basis.
It's everything's the first 

877
01:06:16,530 --> 01:06:18,850
time. 
In this case, you're, you're 

878
01:06:18,900 --> 01:06:23,460
you're discovering something 
that you don't know what it is. 

879
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,050
That's what I told you, that we 
kept on learning. 

880
01:06:27,100 --> 01:06:30,710
Yeah, we kept on learning. 
If you wanted to give speed to 

881
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,120
this process, it would destroy, 
right? 

882
01:06:34,190 --> 01:06:37,380
It's like coming back from from 
space. 

883
01:06:38,210 --> 01:06:44,570
At certain speed, the the the 
heat protector will work. 

884
01:06:44,620 --> 01:06:47,260
Yeah. 
Above certain speed it doesn't 

885
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:48,170
work. 
Yeah. 

886
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:54,550
Well, that's the philosophy a 
bit behind this project, because

887
01:06:55,990 --> 01:07:02,150
in the year 2003 we have the 
visit of Belgium archaeologist 

888
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,590
Janelle Meister, who created the
career of medieval archaeology 

889
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,380
in Belgium. 
He was representative for 

890
01:07:12,460 --> 01:07:18,470
Persuasion Matters for UNESCO. 
For Belgium, he visited this 

891
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,220
place. 
Imagine when we started, the 

892
01:07:23,230 --> 01:07:26,180
City Council didn't have an 
archaeology department. 

893
01:07:27,540 --> 01:07:30,310
They have it now. 
So we were the first in 

894
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,450
everything they printed. 
This is the most important 

895
01:07:34,460 --> 01:07:38,190
archaeological project of the 
city, the City Council for that.

896
01:07:38,660 --> 01:07:42,590
Now, in 40 years, I've gone 
through all the governments. 

897
01:07:43,060 --> 01:07:46,230
Imagine, imagine City Council 
here for 40 years. 

898
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,770
You've you've seen them all. 
Even if they come twice, which 

899
01:07:49,780 --> 01:07:52,390
normally in Argentina, they 
don't come twice. 

900
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,400
Here they do come twice, right? 
Yeah. 

901
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:56,990
Yeah. 
But then no. 

902
01:07:57,180 --> 01:08:02,870
So I've seen other governments 
interesting the attitude of the 

903
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,440
governments view it through 
time. 

904
01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:10,520
Uh, at the beginning it was the 
first thing. 

905
01:08:10,530 --> 01:08:14,170
It was impressive that you saw 
articles and newspaper. 

906
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:18,779
By the time the project 
finished, you would say it would

907
01:08:18,790 --> 01:08:24,439
be far more favorable. 
No, it wasn't. 

908
01:08:25,490 --> 01:08:29,620
And at the same time, you have 
to understand that Argentina 

909
01:08:30,260 --> 01:08:39,630
private enterprise before has 
never been a beneficiary of 

910
01:08:40,060 --> 01:08:44,859
governments. 
Rabbit wasn't well looked at. 

911
01:08:44,930 --> 01:08:48,899
OK, so much so that one of my 
first sister views that they 

912
01:08:48,910 --> 01:08:54,550
didn't believe in in radio. 
Imagine when I started you 

913
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,569
didn't have cellular phone. 
You have to go back to in time 

914
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:01,340
to understand the version of 
this project. 

915
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,109
We didn't have cellular phones. 
We had facts. 

916
01:09:06,180 --> 01:09:09,210
And you didn't have Internet. 
We didn't have Internet. 

917
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:12,830
Fine, it was. 
But gaining exposure to be able 

918
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,590
to get any form of like 
international recognition for 

919
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,050
what was going on, it was 
impossible. 

920
01:09:19,060 --> 01:09:22,310
You need to have someone write 
an article in a global newspaper

921
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:24,380
that was read all over. 
Exactly. 

922
01:09:24,750 --> 01:09:29,359
We did get a prize. 
And for Restoration of Old 

923
01:09:29,370 --> 01:09:34,430
cities, we were candidates, 
finalists and the group Your 

924
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:38,770
Prize, which started in Italy 
and then they have one in South 

925
01:09:38,779 --> 01:09:41,240
America because what we have 
done. 

926
01:09:42,300 --> 01:09:49,330
But now we have a government 
that is fabled to private 

927
01:09:49,340 --> 01:09:55,500
enterprise, but is the least 
enthusiastic about preservation.

928
01:09:57,290 --> 01:10:03,500
But that you have to take it as 
the way you take seasons in in 

929
01:10:03,510 --> 01:10:06,380
Canada. 
If you live in Canada and you're

930
01:10:06,390 --> 01:10:11,570
going to start complaining that 
it's 4 below, 4 below, it's a 

931
01:10:11,580 --> 01:10:16,830
normal temperature here so that 
the attitude of governments 

932
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:20,910
concerning preservation, it's a 
circumstance. 

933
01:10:20,980 --> 01:10:23,490
Yes, it will pass. 
It would bounce. 

934
01:10:23,500 --> 01:10:26,100
What would remain is the real 
value, right? 

935
01:10:26,300 --> 01:10:30,590
And this has its real value. 
So when this gentleman visited 

936
01:10:30,780 --> 01:10:37,390
the San Juan 2003, I came down 
and I said I'm going to do the 

937
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,370
guided tour. 
I came down. 

938
01:10:39,620 --> 01:10:42,310
He came from somebody from the 
City Council. 

939
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:46,210
By that time they did have a 
preservation and archaeology 

940
01:10:46,220 --> 01:10:47,600
area. 
Yeah, I said. 

941
01:10:48,460 --> 01:10:50,530
What sort of visit would you 
like to have? 

942
01:10:52,370 --> 01:10:57,390
Archaeological. 
Historical, architectural or you

943
01:10:57,400 --> 01:10:59,770
would like to know the 
philosophy of the of the 

944
01:10:59,780 --> 01:11:01,520
project? 
Why do you have to have one 

945
01:11:01,530 --> 01:11:03,280
designation? 
Why can't you have multiple? 

946
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:05,870
Sorry. 
Why do you only get to have one 

947
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,760
designation? 
Why couldn't you have multiple? 

948
01:11:09,420 --> 01:11:12,610
Why couldn't you have our 
archaeological and 

949
01:11:12,620 --> 01:11:16,070
architectural? 
No, no, I, I, I wanted to ask 

950
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,090
him to see, to see what he said 
to to give him the scope to fair

951
01:11:20,100 --> 01:11:21,760
enough. 
It's like, no, no, it's like 

952
01:11:21,770 --> 01:11:24,370
when I where do I start? 
I can start. 

953
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,870
It doesn't matter where I start.
I'll end up with a story of the 

954
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,440
second complete doesn't matter 
what, so and he said 

955
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,660
philosophical. 
OK. 

956
01:11:34,830 --> 01:11:40,880
And then I said, well, have to 
confess that it's the first time

957
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,500
they understand how I can define
what I'm doing. 

958
01:11:45,490 --> 01:11:48,270
OK, for years that couldn't 
explain to my friends what I'm 

959
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,530
doing. 
In the beginning I used to say 

960
01:11:50,540 --> 01:11:54,880
that I'm a sort of a medieval 
artisan, which was more or less 

961
01:11:54,890 --> 01:11:56,730
something that had to do what I 
was doing. 

962
01:11:56,740 --> 01:12:00,650
Then I said I'm a frame our film
history. 

963
01:12:01,460 --> 01:12:05,970
That was sort of a ironical 
description of what I was doing.

964
01:12:06,020 --> 01:12:06,810
Yeah. 
So. 

965
01:12:06,940 --> 01:12:10,840
But now I have the word that 
defines what I'm doing. 

966
01:12:12,930 --> 01:12:17,220
And what I'm telling you now is 
the real philosophy of this 

967
01:12:17,230 --> 01:12:18,850
project. 
Why? 

968
01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:24,290
What I'm doing is conciliation. 
Conciliation between the past, 

969
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:31,010
the present and the future, and 
conciliation between a 

970
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:37,110
commercial project and culture. 
When he left, he wrote in the 

971
01:12:37,820 --> 01:12:43,150
visit this book should have had.
After visiting this idea, he put

972
01:12:44,180 --> 01:12:48,880
and suddenly I understood that 
what I was doing, the most 

973
01:12:48,890 --> 01:12:51,340
important thing, what I was 
doing, it was not in the 

974
01:12:51,350 --> 01:12:55,470
building, it was not the 
physical, it was the idea. 

975
01:12:56,450 --> 01:13:01,780
And after that, when I started 
doing, we have a visit of the 

976
01:13:02,070 --> 01:13:06,540
University of Architecture of 
Buenos Aires on restoration. 

977
01:13:06,550 --> 01:13:13,180
We had it for 21 years and I 
introduced the second as an idea

978
01:13:13,190 --> 01:13:19,690
site and that is the real 
philosophy between this by the. 

979
01:13:19,700 --> 01:13:21,580
Way, hold on. 
Sorry to interrupt your train of

980
01:13:21,590 --> 01:13:24,140
thought right there, but you've 
just said something that we 

981
01:13:24,150 --> 01:13:26,100
haven't really defined. 
We never really, we haven't 

982
01:13:26,110 --> 01:13:28,940
really said it much. 
The name of the museum. 

983
01:13:29,010 --> 01:13:30,980
El San Juan. 
Thank you. 

984
01:13:31,330 --> 01:13:35,630
We I intentionally didn't say it
at any point earlier. 

985
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:41,750
I wanted you to have the build 
up of this story, to talk about 

986
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:43,620
it, to get to the point where we
now say. 

987
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:47,670
El Sancon with which said. 
Yes. 

988
01:13:48,140 --> 01:13:57,840
OK, now that was the start of 
the evolution of the idea I had.

989
01:13:57,890 --> 01:14:02,890
I had written. 
Yeah, many articles. 

990
01:14:03,710 --> 01:14:07,200
I started writing a book which I
haven't printed yet, which is 

991
01:14:08,290 --> 01:14:10,920
the history of this this 
project. 

992
01:14:11,130 --> 01:14:20,880
But it's a, it's a narration. 
It's like a story about the city

993
01:14:20,890 --> 01:14:24,460
and about this project, but more
about the city, anecdotes of the

994
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:27,160
city. 
So it's a mixture and the motion

995
01:14:27,170 --> 01:14:33,550
part, how I found it, etcetera. 
But at the same time, I was 

996
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:37,990
going to write a book about 
philosophy and architecture 

997
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:48,890
based on the book by Brody Yard.
Yeah, singular objects and there

998
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:53,470
they talk about the memory, 
restoring the memory. 

999
01:14:54,440 --> 01:15:01,180
And I think that this has to do 
with everything that is the 

1000
01:15:01,190 --> 01:15:05,720
conciliation of the past, the 
present and future, as you 

1001
01:15:05,730 --> 01:15:08,340
mentioned the case. 
So you're grandmother just now 

1002
01:15:08,410 --> 01:15:14,600
when Vanessa said maybe you 
should record where a Society of

1003
01:15:14,670 --> 01:15:24,280
objects and we're losing the 
capacity of leaving an 

1004
01:15:24,290 --> 01:15:25,780
intangible. 
Yes. 

1005
01:15:26,470 --> 01:15:32,280
So the museum which had the long
run in the end turned up to be a

1006
01:15:32,290 --> 01:15:39,950
museum. 
But it's a machine that has more

1007
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,580
than objects. 
It's got the objects. 

1008
01:15:42,590 --> 01:15:47,470
We belong to this place in that.
In that sense it's original 

1009
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,290
because everything that's there 
belongs to there. 

1010
01:15:50,540 --> 01:15:54,930
This was not bought, was not 
taken away, was not received. 

1011
01:15:54,940 --> 01:15:56,650
It was not transported and 
received there. 

1012
01:15:56,660 --> 01:16:00,640
Yeah, including the case. 
Yes, it's called the added 

1013
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,390
technology to be able to 
function in today's world. 

1014
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:09,350
Yes. 
But it's the it's, it's, it's 

1015
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:14,400
the real thing itself. 
It's not what it looks like, 

1016
01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:17,280
it's what it is, which is the 
most important thing, the 

1017
01:16:17,290 --> 01:16:22,040
fundamental value of that. 
But then when I gave a chat in 

1018
01:16:22,050 --> 01:16:28,190
Quebec for UNESCO Funny Twin 
about preservation development, 

1019
01:16:29,550 --> 01:16:35,130
I came with the idea and said 
that I showed the photographs of

1020
01:16:35,140 --> 01:16:41,190
the process and I said everybody
wants to find add relics in the 

1021
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:43,980
street. 
Nobody in the world wants to 

1022
01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:47,500
find a system under his house. 
Why? 

1023
01:16:49,130 --> 01:16:52,150
That's the truth nobody wants. 
Why? 

1024
01:16:53,060 --> 01:16:56,710
Because it means an 
inconvenience. 

1025
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,290
If you have fun, if you have in 
your living, you have a system, 

1026
01:17:01,430 --> 01:17:05,040
1800 system, you're done. 
You won't be able to cover 

1027
01:17:05,050 --> 01:17:06,750
certain you're going to have a 
problem. 

1028
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:08,590
Yeah, fine. 
Now how come? 

1029
01:17:09,430 --> 01:17:19,370
Don't we want to preserve, have 
to have the, the, the will of 

1030
01:17:19,380 --> 01:17:24,440
everybody to preserve, not only 
of the people who are in charge 

1031
01:17:24,450 --> 01:17:25,670
of preservation? 
Yeah. 

1032
01:17:26,070 --> 01:17:29,780
The butcher, the mechanic, the 
dentist, the gardener and the 

1033
01:17:29,790 --> 01:17:31,170
owner. 
Everybody wants it. 

1034
01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:33,880
Fine, but it should not 
happening. 

1035
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:39,030
Why? 
Because the people that dictate 

1036
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:45,250
the preservation rules have not 
been involved in the problem of 

1037
01:17:45,300 --> 01:17:47,440
what to do if we, if you find 
it. 

1038
01:17:49,390 --> 01:17:55,080
Well, if you amplify that idea 
to the development of the 

1039
01:17:55,090 --> 01:17:59,140
cities, yes, you have the 
problems you have today in every

1040
01:17:59,150 --> 01:18:05,210
city of the world, every city of
the world as the same type of 

1041
01:18:05,220 --> 01:18:07,790
problem. 
Funding is not even enough. 

1042
01:18:09,060 --> 01:18:13,880
Infrastructure is not enough. 
You need population with the 

1043
01:18:13,890 --> 01:18:18,150
southern populated. 
Yeah, and you lost the sense, 

1044
01:18:18,930 --> 01:18:25,160
original sense of the city. 
Now what have I done in the 

1045
01:18:25,170 --> 01:18:27,000
building in the San Juan 
project? 

1046
01:18:28,740 --> 01:18:33,330
Had to cancel it now. 
What does conciliation mean? 

1047
01:18:34,710 --> 01:18:40,840
If you look at the dictionary 
shop, possibly it will say well 

1048
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:48,960
2 to to get to an equilibrium 
between 2:00 different 

1049
01:18:48,970 --> 01:18:53,130
interests. 
It's not like that. 

1050
01:18:54,690 --> 01:18:58,050
If not, it would be easy. 
Everything would be consoled. 

1051
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:01,950
The wars, everything. 
Yeah, litigations. 

1052
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:03,410
Yeah, there would be no 
conflict. 

1053
01:19:03,620 --> 01:19:05,350
But there is, yes. 
OK, fine. 

1054
01:19:06,260 --> 01:19:11,870
Why? 
Because people do not define 

1055
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:17,130
which is fundamental, which is 
accessory. 

1056
01:19:18,770 --> 01:19:24,460
I had that definition very clear
in the project. 

1057
01:19:25,340 --> 01:19:28,120
What was fundamental to make 
money? 

1058
01:19:28,310 --> 01:19:32,310
No. 
Yes. 

1059
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:41,370
How much with the limit? 
So I defined the fundamental at 

1060
01:19:41,380 --> 01:19:44,820
the same time the limitation of 
fundamental. 

1061
01:19:45,290 --> 01:19:50,970
In thought I would have said OK,
uh, let's put all the money 

1062
01:19:50,980 --> 01:19:57,190
that's needed here. 
We give him the key and we go to

1063
01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:59,480
my daughter's house to live. 
Yeah. 

1064
01:20:00,230 --> 01:20:04,080
And retire there and do nothing.
No, no, that was not objective. 

1065
01:20:05,530 --> 01:20:09,360
The objective was to have 
something that would be self 

1066
01:20:09,370 --> 01:20:12,740
sustainable. 
You don't educate your kid. 

1067
01:20:12,990 --> 01:20:16,700
He gets a degree. 
You give him a wallet with $100 

1068
01:20:16,750 --> 01:20:19,350
and say well see you in the next
World. 

1069
01:20:20,480 --> 01:20:22,970
You don't do that. 
You want him to be able to 

1070
01:20:22,980 --> 01:20:25,830
succeed to to make a living. 
Yeah, you nurture them. 

1071
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:28,310
Fine. 
So that's the same thing. 

1072
01:20:28,380 --> 01:20:38,400
Now, if you take this concept, 
this idea, do other areas of 

1073
01:20:38,410 --> 01:20:44,250
activities, meaning real life in
everything, suddenly you you 

1074
01:20:44,260 --> 01:20:48,170
find that the world is not 
working this way. 

1075
01:20:50,090 --> 01:20:56,730
It's working in another way. 
That is, you get Internet did 

1076
01:20:56,740 --> 01:20:59,770
not exist. 
Yeah, you only had radios, fine.

1077
01:21:00,190 --> 01:21:02,340
But you didn't have pay to pay 
for the radio. 

1078
01:21:02,350 --> 01:21:05,580
You paid for the artifact. 
You didn't pay for the wave, 

1079
01:21:06,510 --> 01:21:10,940
right? 
Today you're in different 

1080
01:21:10,990 --> 01:21:17,070
technological world. 
You buy the radio, which now 

1081
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:21,380
named cellular phone or 
computer, and you pay for the 

1082
01:21:21,390 --> 01:21:27,940
service and then you pay for the
maintenance of a service for the

1083
01:21:27,950 --> 01:21:32,020
memory of the service. 
Sunday. 

1084
01:21:33,950 --> 01:21:42,620
We're putting on people's lives 
a consumption expense which will

1085
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:50,420
only increase, an income which 
would only decrease, and we're 

1086
01:21:50,430 --> 01:21:53,710
creating a conflict. 
No. 

1087
01:21:55,990 --> 01:22:07,150
Call it radio waves, call it 
construction, call it flying, 

1088
01:22:08,590 --> 01:22:14,340
call IT industry, call anything.
You're talking about you. 

1089
01:22:15,890 --> 01:22:25,000
We're creating demand which will
create a need for maintenance 

1090
01:22:25,870 --> 01:22:29,240
which we already know cannot be 
paid. 

1091
01:22:30,540 --> 01:22:33,290
It's happening. 
Has nothing to do with one 

1092
01:22:33,300 --> 01:22:35,510
country. 
It's a system. 

1093
01:22:35,740 --> 01:22:39,880
OK. 
And now what do we do? 

1094
01:22:40,780 --> 01:22:49,130
Well, uh, the solution is to 
understand that there is a limit

1095
01:22:49,140 --> 01:22:54,880
to growth. 
That is what our grandparents 

1096
01:22:54,890 --> 01:23:03,720
did, enforced by the world, by 
nature, by technology. 

1097
01:23:03,790 --> 01:23:06,620
Doesn't matter why. 
Yeah, there was a limit to 

1098
01:23:06,630 --> 01:23:11,430
growth. 
Now it's almost that there's no 

1099
01:23:11,440 --> 01:23:15,510
limit to growth, even in 
ambition. 

1100
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:20,000
Right. 
Well, this is what has created 

1101
01:23:21,020 --> 01:23:25,680
this distortion that in this 
building I was able to 

1102
01:23:25,690 --> 01:23:36,920
manipulate because it was so 
process small scale and the had 

1103
01:23:36,930 --> 01:23:41,510
a father who was willing to to 
go with the project, right. 

1104
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,630
Well, any questions and I think 
that. 

1105
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:51,350
I, I, I mean one, I think that 
is, it has been so interesting 

1106
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:54,890
because anyone and again, anyone
listening right now, you've 

1107
01:23:54,900 --> 01:23:58,390
gotta, you've gotta appreciate 
what has just been described 

1108
01:23:58,400 --> 01:23:59,870
here in this conversation 
before. 

1109
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:04,970
Here is is is when you see the 
images and you can appreciate 

1110
01:24:04,980 --> 01:24:09,150
the timelines associated with 
the evolution of this 

1111
01:24:09,810 --> 01:24:13,440
restoration. 
You will see that the, the 

1112
01:24:13,450 --> 01:24:17,260
thought that goes into it and 
the same way it's described now 

1113
01:24:17,330 --> 01:24:22,890
live with you. 
And what I, what I, what I know 

1114
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:28,290
and admire about it is that this
is also become this, this museum

1115
01:24:28,300 --> 01:24:33,300
has become a staple for like 
dignitaries that come through 

1116
01:24:33,310 --> 01:24:40,450
the, the, the city, foreign 
officials, um, travelers of all 

1117
01:24:40,460 --> 01:24:43,310
kinds. 
I know that it has essentially 

1118
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:48,550
now become a staple of Buenos 
Aires to for people to come and 

1119
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:53,680
see. 
And when you have created an 

1120
01:24:53,690 --> 01:24:57,460
environment that enables people 
to come and see something that 

1121
01:24:57,530 --> 01:25:02,100
if someone else had purchased 
this property in 1985, they 

1122
01:25:02,110 --> 01:25:05,780
would have never potentially 
uncovered, what you uncovered in

1123
01:25:05,790 --> 01:25:09,660
what is now in many ways could, 
could be considered a national 

1124
01:25:09,670 --> 01:25:14,160
treasure, might have never been 
scene. 

1125
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:19,270
And so it is serendipitous that 
you would have found something 

1126
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:23,280
like this and that you had the 
wherewithal to be able to go and

1127
01:25:23,290 --> 01:25:29,490
now dedicate a, a second 
profession to uncovering a world

1128
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:35,500
that would have been lost. 
You, you have changed. 

1129
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:39,810
I'm just, I'm, I'm restating it.
You've changed governance in the

1130
01:25:39,820 --> 01:25:42,340
way that this can be, this can 
be addressed. 

1131
01:25:42,690 --> 01:25:53,470
You created Professional 
manpower in trades that might 

1132
01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:55,850
not have known that they could 
do what they did. 

1133
01:25:57,170 --> 01:26:00,500
And you have in the midst of it 
all. 

1134
01:26:00,650 --> 01:26:05,320
And I, we haven't even discussed
this, but she will come on next 

1135
01:26:05,330 --> 01:26:10,660
week as a byproduct of this 
week's discussion with you, but 

1136
01:26:10,670 --> 01:26:19,690
also created one of the most 
recognized creative directors in

1137
01:26:20,180 --> 01:26:26,370
the marketplace today in Vanessa
Epstein, who owns Block Design. 

1138
01:26:26,700 --> 01:26:31,810
And the sure a large part of her
creative freedom stems from what

1139
01:26:31,820 --> 01:26:35,330
you were able to establish in 
your professional career. 

1140
01:26:36,460 --> 01:26:40,760
And so I have to say to you, 
questions, I mean questions I, 

1141
01:26:41,650 --> 01:26:43,660
you've, you've said it. 
You've said to me, you've, 

1142
01:26:43,670 --> 01:26:46,300
you've educated me enough that I
don't, I, to be honest, I don't,

1143
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:48,760
I don't wanna ask questions. 
I want the story to be the way 

1144
01:26:48,770 --> 01:26:52,020
you've told it. 
I just have to say that I so 

1145
01:26:52,030 --> 01:26:55,620
admire the fact that you came 
here and a visit with your 

1146
01:26:55,630 --> 01:26:58,440
family and that we were able to 
coordinate this. 

1147
01:26:59,390 --> 01:27:04,480
And I also have to say thank you
to Zoe Coombs from the Neptune 

1148
01:27:04,490 --> 01:27:08,320
Foundation, because the only 
reason that all of this somehow 

1149
01:27:08,330 --> 01:27:12,470
transpired is that I was at a 
conference. 

1150
01:27:12,480 --> 01:27:17,820
I was at a workshop on the 
evolution that AI would have in 

1151
01:27:17,830 --> 01:27:21,160
design. 
And the woman that sat down next

1152
01:27:21,170 --> 01:27:26,310
to me at this workshop was your 
daughter Vanessa, who I had just

1153
01:27:26,490 --> 01:27:30,710
heard about from Zoe on a phone 
call on the way down to the 

1154
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:33,710
workshop. 
And that Vanessa happens to sit 

1155
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:36,210
down next to me. 
And then we engage in a 

1156
01:27:36,220 --> 01:27:38,570
conversation that leads to you 
sitting here today. 

1157
01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:41,870
So when we talk about the way 
that the world works and the 

1158
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,330
fact that you bought this 
property and how fortunate it 

1159
01:27:45,340 --> 01:27:47,580
was that you were able to 
uncover what was there. 

1160
01:27:48,810 --> 01:27:52,420
If you open your eyes to look at
the way that the world works, it

1161
01:27:52,430 --> 01:27:57,530
sends you messages all the time.
And if you have a closed mind, 

1162
01:27:57,540 --> 01:28:00,420
you will miss the opportunities 
to be able to evolve as a 

1163
01:28:00,430 --> 01:28:05,290
person. 
And I have to say thank you for 

1164
01:28:05,300 --> 01:28:08,510
coming here today because I have
so enjoyed this. 

1165
01:28:09,290 --> 01:28:14,890
And I'm hoping that you were 
able to feel that you could tell

1166
01:28:14,940 --> 01:28:19,530
the legacy project of what this 
is in an in an Evergreen 

1167
01:28:19,540 --> 01:28:21,690
environment. 
This interview will never go 

1168
01:28:21,700 --> 01:28:24,070
away. 
This discussion never goes away.

1169
01:28:24,770 --> 01:28:28,840
The history of what you 
uncovered now stays in this 

1170
01:28:28,850 --> 01:28:32,280
interview forever, in a 
different way than words do on 

1171
01:28:32,290 --> 01:28:35,500
print. 
This is your voice, so I don't 

1172
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:38,300
wanna ask questions. 
You've told it the way you want 

1173
01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:41,240
it to. 
Thank you so much. 

1174
01:28:41,250 --> 01:28:48,960
And yes, it is my voice and and 
in the book that I wrote having 

1175
01:28:48,970 --> 01:28:50,590
printed. 
I don't know why because I 

1176
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:52,560
always keep on changing it. 
Yeah. 

1177
01:28:52,610 --> 01:29:00,100
But the word that is mentioned 
many times is illusion and I 

1178
01:29:00,110 --> 01:29:03,120
think that that is what kept the
project going. 

1179
01:29:03,170 --> 01:29:07,710
Haven't talked about the 
downhills we had so many times. 

1180
01:29:08,180 --> 01:29:14,310
We all do in life, but if your 
objective is clear enough and 

1181
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:18,700
you have the lusion, well, 
you'll you'll be on the road 

1182
01:29:19,110 --> 01:29:21,440
very soon. 
Thank you so much. 

1183
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:23,280
Jorge is my absolute pleasure.