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OK, let's do this. 
Uh, alright, what's up? 

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Zhan, Zhan, my editor. 
Don't worry dude. 

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The the anxiety you have is 
gonna go away. 

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OK, Great, great, great cause 
all. 

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You've seen it before. 
Yeah, ultimately, yeah, dude, 

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Pat Hanson was squirmish too, 
and so was Cindy randomly. 

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And a whole bunch of others. 
Alright, Zishan 321, welcome to 

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issued for construction. 
I'm your host, Jonathan Jacobs, 

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and today I've got with me a 
gentleman who is one of the 

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partners, been at a practice for
quite some time, thankfully 

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introduced to him by a beautiful
man named Michael Mantella. 

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He joined me at the launch party
from businesses and well, I 

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would say that the practice has 
his hand in a lot of work all 

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across Canada. 
When I asked him how many 

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practices he thinks they work 
with, the answer was hundreds, 

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and I would agree. 
So today I've got with me. 

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If you haven't already read, 
I've got Phillip Evans from ERA 

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Architects. 
Phil, thanks for joining. 

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It's a pleasure to be. 
Here and I just said Phil, I 

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should. 
Have said no it's I get booked I

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get. 
OK, I know, but you prefer 

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Phillip? 
I do prefer Phillip. 

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Right, it's the same way I 
prefer Jonathan. 

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There we go, right? 
Thanks for joining me today. 

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I appreciate you taking time to 
do this. 

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We're probably, if not already, 
we'll have spent the entire 

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afternoon together and it's been
a pleasure. 

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And the time that we've come to 
know each other, which has been 

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very brief, it's been a lot of 
fun. 

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We're we're kindred spirits 
already, John. 

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Um, OK, so if anyone hasn't 
listened to this before, the 

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basics of how I'd like to go 
about discussions with people, 

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I'd like to ask them about, you 
know, where they were born, what

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life was like for them early on.
And then I kind of moved through

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the course of their education, 
professional career and go 

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through it all. 
So it's not something that 

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anyone that sits across from me 
ever has to study about 

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understanding. 
Where does this conversation go?

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Because it's pretty much the 
history of their life. 

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And the cool thing with for you,
Phillip, is that you get to over

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the next, however long this 
conversation goes, I have a 

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bookmark at the stage of your 
life in professional career and 

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where you are personally and 
everything else that defines 

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this moment. 
So it's kind of cool. 

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Yeah, that is really cool. 
And it's all coming from you. 

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It's not like from someone that 
wrote an article about it. 

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That's right. 
Yeah. 

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Or an award or anything like 
that. 

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This is this is, this is you. 
So where were you born? 

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Wow. 
What was your family like? 

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What did your parents do? 
What were your interests? 

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All of those questions. 
Yeah. 

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And I gotta say that's, that's 
a, it's a fun, a question to be 

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asked. 
It's a, it's a fun format to, to

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explore where, where we've come 
from, taking stock on how we got

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to this place. 
Well, so I just I want and 

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acknowledging an appreciation 
for what that what that is. 

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I appreciate that. 
I mean, look for someone to work

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with you. 
You've had all of this lived 

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experience and it doesn't just 
go for you. 

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It goes for all the people with 
the practice, right? 

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So when you're going to work 
with someone, you want to know 

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like, OK, well, what have you 
experienced in your life? 

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What are you drawing on? 
Yeah. 

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No, it's absolutely. 
And you know, my family is 

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originally from the East Coast. 
OK, where have of Canada place 

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called Newfoundland? 
Ohhh, great and great province. 

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It, it, it is pretty special. 
I I spent my many summers there 

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after my family had moved to the
mainland, so to speak. 

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Hold on. 
But you glazed over, you said. 

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Newfoundland where? 
Yeah, so actually my, my 

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mother's side of the family is 
up in the Notre Dame Bay Area on

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the North End of Newfoundland. 
And my father's I was had 

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resettled in in St. 
John's, but originally they were

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up in the Greenspond area, a 
place called Pools Island. 

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And if you don't know 
Newfoundland, there's there's 

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there's the, the key sort of 
main metropolitan area, St. 

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John's, obviously the capital, 
but then many of the communities

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that that exist in up until 
probably the 50s or 60s, most 

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people lived out in the what are
called outport communities. 

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Yep. 
And these were communities that 

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were settled by from the sea and
so many of them were were boat 

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access and they had in some 
cases being connected to other 

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communities or completely 
isolated from. 

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Isn't that amazing? 
This feeling are talking right 

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now it's it's it's spring in in 
Canada. 

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I mean spring most places 
actually as I say that, but 

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well, not that's not entirely 
true. 

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Rephrase. 
That he's not a friend of yours,

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is he? 
Well, so there's a Robin outside

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of where we're recording right 
now. 

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And this Robin tries to me with 
itself because the doors, that 

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of the room that we're in right 
now in my backyard, they have a 

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mirror on them. 
And so this Robin for the last 

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two years, flies up to the doors
and tries to meet with itself. 

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So this is a regular. 
This is a regular. 

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Currency. 
You asked if it was a friend. 

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I mean, you'd be he's a bird 
brain. 

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Yeah. 
But yeah, no, he's, he's a he's 

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local. 
There was, and it was actually a

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pretty nice intimate. 
Experience was thriving as 

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you're describing villages and 
towns and cities. 

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A. 
Yeah, I told you it wouldn't 

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take long to. 
Feel warm right at home. 

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It's it's happening. 
We needed your little friend 

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there. 
To break OHT. 

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Don't worry, he'll be back a 
whole bunch of times. 

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Yeah, he's our Comic Relief. 
Yeah, for the, for the, for the 

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afternoon. 
Oh, that was wonderful. 

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That was. 
Wonderful. 

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Alright, sorry. 
So no. 

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So I was actually, I was in 
Newfoundland last year and in 

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St. 
John's I went, I went mountain 

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biking. 
I mean. 

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Absolutely gorgeous Kitty Vitty.
Yeah. 

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Oh great. 
Spot with like some incredible 

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athletes, including one guy who 
was like a Filipino on the 

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Filipino national team, OK? 
Did you get a chance to start? 

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Over. 
I said the Filipino national 

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team. 
I actually meant the Philippines

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national national team. 
OK. 

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My God, I felt so under. 
Yeah, under, under conditioned, 

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Yeah, any. 
But what a what a spot. 

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Well, you got lots of terrain 
there. 

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Yeah, and you have watched the 
the views. 

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Every time you'd come over a 
Crest, you'd have this view of 

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the ocean and my God, it was 
incredible. 

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I mean, you know, all through 
the, the province, there's some 

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pretty spectacular views and 
wonderful landforms. 

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And funny, I, I had actually, I 
was familiar with St. 

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John's and I've done a number of
Rd. trips up to the north and 

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the northern communities across 
Notre Dame Bay. 

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And as a, as you wander up 
outside of outside of St. 

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John's, up through Conception 
Bay, up past Bonavista Bay, and 

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then you get up to northern 
Notre Dame Bay. 

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My, my, my mother side of the 
family was from a a little 

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community called Northern Arm in
Botwood was the, the neighboring

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community. 
And they were all they had 

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settled there in the late 1800s 
and they were, they were all 

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shipbuilders. 
Crazy. 

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00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:35,670
And at some point they had, they
had and they built ships for, 

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you know, 3 mass schooners for 
years and years. 

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And they would for generations. 
They would pass that down to 

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each other, one another, and at 
some point they had sort of 

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00:07:43,750 --> 00:07:45,520
transferred their skill set onto
land. 

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And so they were obviously 
building, you know, structures 

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00:07:48,130 --> 00:07:52,530
and sheds and boats and houses 
at at some point they would, 

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they would also, you know, 
contribute to, you know, civic 

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buildings and, yeah, you know, 
schools and churches and what 

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00:07:58,230 --> 00:08:01,410
have you. 
So I didn't have much of A 

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00:08:01,420 --> 00:08:06,170
connection to that growing up on
the mainland in Ontario when my 

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00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:09,500
parents came here. 
How old were you when you came? 

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00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:14,560
Oht jeez, like young so I don't.
Like a 56. 

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Like young, Like young. 
Ohe younger than. 

155
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That so like my family would 
bounce. 

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00:08:18,510 --> 00:08:22,520
We we bounced around in Ontario 
when when we got here, at one 

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point we were out in Pembroke, 
we were in Hamilton. 

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We kind of bounced around to a 
few different Petawawa. 

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At one point we landed in 
Brampton and actually many 

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00:08:33,890 --> 00:08:37,059
Newfoundlanders, they ended up 
Hampton. 

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00:08:37,070 --> 00:08:39,640
Yeah. 
Ended up settling in in Newfound

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00:08:39,650 --> 00:08:44,870
which I hadn't known until I I 
read 1 of Jane Jacobs final 

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00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:49,990
final books. 
What was the name of that book? 

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00:08:51,410 --> 00:08:53,170
It's slipping my mind now but 
OK. 

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00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:55,210
But a green economy? 
Something like this but. 

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00:08:56,660 --> 00:08:59,840
And what, what did your what did
your dad do? 

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00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:04,120
So he was, he was in finance 
and, and, but he, but he had 

168
00:09:04,130 --> 00:09:10,210
grown up, you know, on the, on 
the fish yards and, and salting 

169
00:09:10,220 --> 00:09:15,840
fish and, and working on his, on
his father's boat along with his

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ten brothers and sisters. 
Yep. 

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00:09:19,010 --> 00:09:24,220
And was the was the first in his
family to go to, to university 

172
00:09:24,230 --> 00:09:27,740
and then and then came to 
Ontario. 

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My mother was a nurse. 
My father was in, in, in finance

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00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:36,930
and both had a little set up in,
in Brampton and that was sort 

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00:09:36,940 --> 00:09:43,640
of, I guess that was sort of 
early 80s when, when that when 

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00:09:43,650 --> 00:09:45,600
that happens. 
So yeah, I pretty much grew up 

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in Brampton till, you know, 
through throughout middle 

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school, high school and. 
You have a brother? 

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00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,850
Yeah, I've got a twin brother, 
which is quite eerie and fun for

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00:10:00,860 --> 00:10:03,630
friends of ours in the industry 
who happen to bump into us at, 

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00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,890
at at industry events. 
He's in real estate. 

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00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,950
OK. 
I have a younger brother and an 

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00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,170
older sister. 
There's four of you. 

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00:10:10,390 --> 00:10:12,510
There's four of us. 
And same as me. 

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00:10:12,570 --> 00:10:15,710
Yeah, it's nice to have a you. 
Know Clan. 

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00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,920
If the introduction of a, you 
know your first sort of 

187
00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:20,350
community. 
Yeah, totally. 

188
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,880
Is is your family how you relate
to each other, the rules that 

189
00:10:23,890 --> 00:10:27,040
you that you you play with each 
other Yeah, discovery of 

190
00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:30,520
interests and what is the 
challenge each other and. 

191
00:10:30,610 --> 00:10:33,760
Well, I think one of the one of 
the core elements of it all is 

192
00:10:33,770 --> 00:10:36,690
like how you communicate and how
you manage situations because 

193
00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:39,350
you're forced into it no matter 
what and survival of the fittest

194
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,860
in the family with four kids. 
I mean, and especially so they 

195
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:47,370
had my mother had four of us in 
three years, which is kind of 

196
00:10:47,380 --> 00:10:50,130
intense. 
And as a as a father now, I 

197
00:10:50,140 --> 00:10:53,410
can't, I can't imagine what that
would have been like. 

198
00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:57,750
It's kind of nuts, but. 
My my mom, my mom did three in 

199
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,460
three years and then like they I
think I was the byproduct of 

200
00:11:00,470 --> 00:11:04,270
like just my parents rather than
staying in love. 

201
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,250
Yeah, happy accidents happening.
It's wonderful. 

202
00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:09,960
Now here I am, sitting across 
from you. 

203
00:11:09,970 --> 00:11:15,750
But back to you. 4 is a great 
dynamic though. 

204
00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:19,270
Yes, you gotta you gotta crew 
with with. 

205
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,950
Four, yeah. 
The only downside to 4 is that 

206
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,110
you can't 4 of you fit in the 
back seat of a car. 

207
00:11:25,850 --> 00:11:29,640
There's actually comfortable 
you're maxing out at 3:00 and 

208
00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:34,280
that means that you're either 
leading towards a van or if you 

209
00:11:34,290 --> 00:11:38,140
were lucky at the time, you'd 
get a station wagon and you'd 

210
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:41,940
have the backy back. 
I still to this day remember our

211
00:11:41,950 --> 00:11:45,620
1978 Country Squire station 
wagon with. 

212
00:11:45,630 --> 00:11:49,160
Handling, yeah. 
It was, it was a it was 

213
00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:50,950
definitely, it was definitely 
show. 

214
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,910
I can't even remember if we were
seatbelts back. 

215
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,880
Then, alright, just think about 
this for a SEC as we're 

216
00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:59,160
describing this, you're sitting 
for anyone that is like, I don't

217
00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:02,160
know what it would you be. 
You'd be 30 and under, 35 and 

218
00:12:02,170 --> 00:12:04,880
under probably. 
You have to imagine you're 

219
00:12:04,890 --> 00:12:09,710
driving down like the 401 and 
you're sitting in the trunk of a

220
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,400
station wagon facing the yeah, 
you're you're facing backwards. 

221
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,380
So you don't know what's you 
don't know what's in front of 

222
00:12:17,390 --> 00:12:20,510
you, behind you, I should say at
the front. 

223
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,690
But you also could be staring 
like an 18 Wheeler down. 

224
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:28,830
That's behind you and you're 
potentially not wearing a 

225
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,370
seatbelt. 
Totally not wearing a seatbelt 

226
00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:32,120
doing one of these. 
You. 

227
00:12:32,130 --> 00:12:33,550
Know ohe honk his. 
Horn. 

228
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:36,380
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
He fills motioning like, you 

229
00:12:36,390 --> 00:12:39,740
know, pull your horn on the on 
the big 18 Wheelers. 

230
00:12:39,930 --> 00:12:42,720
Still to this day, crowd pleaser
on the highway. 

231
00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:46,340
It's not that it's the best. 
Yeah, man, what a what a great 

232
00:12:46,350 --> 00:12:49,220
time to have grown up anyhow. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

233
00:12:49,230 --> 00:12:53,430
Pre pre Internet analog. 
Yeah, yeah. 

234
00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:57,660
But yeah, no, I grew up in 
Brampton and I actually went to,

235
00:12:57,930 --> 00:13:02,240
it's actually the same. 
I just remembered this, the same

236
00:13:02,250 --> 00:13:06,960
high school, one of your other 
guests who Omar also went to 

237
00:13:06,970 --> 00:13:08,480
Mayfield. 
Ohe yeah, yeah. 

238
00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:09,240
Yeah, we were. 
We went. 

239
00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:12,480
We both went to the same. 
At the high school at the same 

240
00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:14,880
time. 
We were there at the same time, 

241
00:13:14,890 --> 00:13:16,920
Yeah, we overlapped a little 
bit. 

242
00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:19,380
Wild. 
It it is pretty wild. 

243
00:13:19,390 --> 00:13:21,660
Shout out Omar. 
It's a small small. 

244
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:23,920
Scene and apparently in a grade 
school as he described it. 

245
00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:26,590
Very creative, excellent, 
excellent school was an art 

246
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,140
school and so I was there for 
for for visual. 

247
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:34,900
I could, I could, I could always
draw and really enjoyed drawing 

248
00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:38,780
as a just as a form of recording
and. 

249
00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:42,090
And what did you like to draw? 
So, I mean, we would, we would 

250
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:46,130
do, I mean, as a, as an art 
school, we, we had all kinds of 

251
00:13:46,140 --> 00:13:50,230
opportunities, life drawing and 
painting and sculpture. 

252
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,710
So, you know, it was, it was a 
real kind of rich environment 

253
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,960
for, for exposing all of us to 
different means and methods. 

254
00:13:58,970 --> 00:14:01,920
And, you know, as a kind of my 
introduction to what a what a 

255
00:14:01,930 --> 00:14:04,820
studio environment might be like
with your, with your classmates.

256
00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:10,420
It was a great introduction to 
being a student of observation 

257
00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:14,600
and and that's a skill that I 
think is architects. 

258
00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:20,430
We we're consistently humbled by
and, and learning from those 

259
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,160
those observations. 
So from from very, from very 

260
00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:28,040
early on appreciating just what 
what an opportunity that that 

261
00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:31,020
was. 
And actually, I would say it was

262
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,980
because we had these art history
classes and it was, it was my 

263
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:39,610
introduction to, to, you know, 
what we're, what we're plugging 

264
00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:41,050
into. 
Where have we been? 

265
00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:44,710
What should, what do we need to 
have in our operating system 

266
00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:47,490
sort of pick up on the 
conversation where it's where 

267
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:53,790
it's at at the moment. 
And understanding how that, you 

268
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,910
know, informs a young person and
just giving you much bigger 

269
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,170
context from maybe, you know, 
coming from the Island into 

270
00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:06,180
Ontario and and growing up in 
Brampton, this sort of world 

271
00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:10,450
beyond and the kind of history 
beyond and, you know, real, real

272
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:15,770
humility to to to that to that 
education. 

273
00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:21,370
So yeah, no, it was a really 
great, great experience and. 

274
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,490
Did you also live nearby or were
you being busted? 

275
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:27,130
We were being busted in from, 
from, from Brampton. 

276
00:15:27,140 --> 00:15:28,370
OK. 
And then cause Mayfield's just 

277
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:31,250
on the North End. 
It was in Caledon, Yeah. 

278
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,690
And then was he the, the, the, 
the city of Brampton had grown 

279
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,230
quite, quite a bit and he's 
still growing and proud been 

280
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,090
part of that, that expansion. 
So. 

281
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,350
And what else, what other, what 
other interest did you have 

282
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,510
outside of drawing? 
Were you, were you, were you on 

283
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,190
any of the social clubs at the 
school? 

284
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,610
Play sports. 
Or no, not really. 

285
00:15:56,620 --> 00:16:02,530
I, you know, I, I think it was a
modest, I'll say it was a modest

286
00:16:03,180 --> 00:16:06,030
and, and but very supportive 
upbringing. 

287
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,680
All friends, our friends were, 
we're all jumping into group 

288
00:16:10,690 --> 00:16:14,140
sports and hockey and soccer and
that was a bit out of our price 

289
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:17,520
point. 
Um, you know, for, for, for kids

290
00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:23,250
and then, you know, the families
evolve. 

291
00:16:23,260 --> 00:16:28,700
I'll leave it at that. 
And, and so it was a dynamic, I 

292
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:32,490
would say a dynamic upbringing. 
And one, as we sort of stepped 

293
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:36,730
into, you know, teenagers, it 
was quite an independent, I'll 

294
00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:42,690
say upbringing and one that my 
mother eventually found herself 

295
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:48,000
into real estate and my father, 
you know, lived in a, in another

296
00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:51,510
community. 
And so my brothers and sisters 

297
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,590
and I sort of made made the most
made the best of supporting 

298
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,340
covering. 
Yeah. 

299
00:16:57,350 --> 00:17:02,190
And discovering what what the 
the community had to offer and 

300
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,250
what experiences we we enjoyed 
were pretty self self-directed. 

301
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:12,450
I got into actually influenced 
by my father, who also did it 

302
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,170
for quite some time to into judo
and did that competitively for a

303
00:17:16,180 --> 00:17:18,810
little while and then found into
wrestling. 

304
00:17:18,819 --> 00:17:21,750
Again, hold on a second. 
You just go straight to the 

305
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:22,920
wrestling. 
Well. 

306
00:17:22,930 --> 00:17:24,940
Judo. 
Yeah. 

307
00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:27,980
So actually that was a fun, that
was a fun sport and a very 

308
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:31,980
accessible sport, one that 
actually taught some great 

309
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:35,710
habits and, and respect for, for
for others. 

310
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,620
Yeah. 
And judo sort of translates to 

311
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:46,560
the gentle way as a as a, as a 
sport, I found it to be quite, 

312
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:56,110
again, quite, quite respectful 
in terms of a sport working with

313
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,680
others and doing groundwork and 
trying, yeah, you know, 

314
00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:03,050
different throws and and I, I 
never liked the competition side

315
00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:04,230
of it. 
And which is fair. 

316
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,340
Yeah. 
And we would, you know, my, my 

317
00:18:06,350 --> 00:18:10,510
father was he was a third degree
black belt in judo at the time. 

318
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,170
Yeah. 
So he was one of our stances in 

319
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:17,760
the in the club and every time 
there would be a competition, it

320
00:18:17,770 --> 00:18:22,370
would always come down to, to 
myself and my twin brother at 

321
00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:26,070
cell going toe to toe was, was 
was was never a comfortable 

322
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,530
thing, but we, we enjoyed it and
then ended up transferring into 

323
00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:32,810
into wrestling. 
How far did you take Judo? 

324
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:35,250
Was what I didn't go super far 
with it. 

325
00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:37,830
It was. 
I probably stopped it in my 

326
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,280
early teens and then switched 
over not very far. 

327
00:18:43,290 --> 00:18:45,100
I got to like an orange belt. 
OK. 

328
00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:49,140
My younger brother went went 
quite, quite a bit further and 

329
00:18:49,150 --> 00:18:50,440
my father still does it to this 
day. 

330
00:18:50,450 --> 00:18:54,420
Actually he just he just got his
7th degree black belt which is. 

331
00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:59,280
How many degrees of black belt? 
10 And it takes a while to 

332
00:18:59,290 --> 00:19:02,380
clearly get it, you know, to 
move up in the, in the levels. 

333
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:07,690
And I mean there's a handful of 
people in Canada that have that.

334
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,090
So he's, you know, we're all 
quite, quite proud of him for 

335
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:13,630
amazing for that commitment, 
total commitment. 

336
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,510
But I found I found with 
wrestling, it was, it was the 

337
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,990
thing I could make my own and I 
could take those skills from 

338
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,110
judo and transfer them into, 
into wrestling. 

339
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:28,580
And that was a, I found that to 
be a comfortable way to explore 

340
00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:33,680
the kind of community and, and a
larger and different group of 

341
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,510
people that I would normally 
have interacted with. 

342
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,070
And we did lots of traveling 
with it and I got pretty good at

343
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,920
it actually. 
We would go to these. 

344
00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:44,940
Maybe you said it like it was. 
It was a shocker. 

345
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:47,620
You're. 
Supported by it and you know you

346
00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:50,010
just stumble into these things 
or you think you stumble into 

347
00:19:50,020 --> 00:19:54,780
your tractor you're drawn to 
them yeah and then you know we 

348
00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:59,400
just we just did it for fun and 
then you know realize OK pretty 

349
00:19:59,410 --> 00:20:01,590
good and so started going to 
these competitions and. 

350
00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:03,780
Doing pretty well. 
And then and then. 

351
00:20:04,540 --> 00:20:08,250
You know, we these competitions 
you're OK with comparatively to.

352
00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:10,470
Judo, so it was quite 
independent and so my brother 

353
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,260
and I were both indifferent. 
That's what I mean. 

354
00:20:12,270 --> 00:20:14,330
Yeah, categories. 
You were able to separate and it

355
00:20:14,340 --> 00:20:16,140
wasn't a family thing anymore. 
It. 

356
00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:18,210
Was I mean, we both we both did 
it. 

357
00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:21,650
We we both wrestled in different
classes, weight classes. 

358
00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:25,050
And so there was we can enjoy it
again. 

359
00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:29,430
And so then, you know, you do it
with the school and then you 

360
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,850
would do it with the regionals 
and then you'd do it with the 

361
00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:35,410
kind of Ontario level. 
And then, you know, I, I ended 

362
00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:38,460
up wrestling for Team Ontario 
for a number of years and then 

363
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:41,580
cool with, you know, compete on 
the national level did pretty 

364
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:43,660
good there. 
So maybe there's a certain 

365
00:20:43,670 --> 00:20:44,740
point. 
It's like there's other stuff 

366
00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:48,210
going on in high school, you 
know, you wanna check, check out

367
00:20:48,220 --> 00:20:51,080
some other stuff. 
So I mean, I started focusing on

368
00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:56,240
on my art and different 
techniques and participating in 

369
00:20:56,290 --> 00:20:59,300
in various ways there. 
I also then throughout high 

370
00:20:59,310 --> 00:21:04,830
school, just thinking about high
school experiences, I bought a 

371
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,570
car. 
What kind of car you bought? 

372
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:14,600
When I was when I was 14 or 15, 
I was 15, I bought a 1970 Toyota

373
00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:17,640
Land Cruiser OHT it was just a 
giant rust bucket. 

374
00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:20,720
Yeah, of a of a vehicle, but. 
Manual transmission. 

375
00:21:20,770 --> 00:21:26,710
Yeah, yeah, 3 three gear, 33 
speeds, 3 gears and. 

376
00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:29,130
For anyone listening, sorry I'm 
interrupting you again. 

377
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:33,460
OK, if you're listening I assume
there's a good chance you 

378
00:21:33,470 --> 00:21:35,430
understand what manual 
transmission is. 

379
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:40,870
But again if your sub 35 you 
might not know what a manual 

380
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,450
transmission is. 
And in a three speed manual 

381
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:48,630
transmission, what you can 
appreciate is that first gear is

382
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,810
probably pretty long. 
So making a really heavy truck 

383
00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:59,400
move from a standstill in first 
gear, yeah, requires a little 

384
00:21:59,410 --> 00:22:02,060
bit of finessing with the 
clutch. 

385
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,700
Yeah, in the in the gearbox. 
It's a definitely a it's like, 

386
00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:10,960
it's like driving a tractor for 
anybody who's ever been on a on 

387
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:14,960
a, on a farm or in a farm 
vehicle with the three speed 

388
00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:16,680
transmission and no power 
steering. 

389
00:22:16,690 --> 00:22:19,280
I was going to say well and 
beyond that, like you're like 

390
00:22:19,290 --> 00:22:21,650
you're looking at pick up. 
You want to go zero to 100, like

391
00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:23,620
you might have to wait a week. 
But you know what the good news 

392
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:25,400
is? 
Once traveling at 100, it's 

393
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:27,480
probably pretty steady. 
It's a pretty steady vehicle. 

394
00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:31,240
Yeah, it was. 
It was 1/2 truck like literally 

395
00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:37,480
and so actually, so I had bought
that in when I was 15 and and I 

396
00:22:37,490 --> 00:22:41,380
didn't know anything about cars,
but figured I'd I'd fix it up, 

397
00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:43,560
take it apart, put it together. 
Very cool. 

398
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:48,410
So that took a little while, but
in that in that process, it gave

399
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:55,850
us a real a vehicle for all 
kinds of different exchanges. 

400
00:22:55,860 --> 00:23:00,010
So we would invite others over 
to who knew something about cars

401
00:23:00,020 --> 00:23:04,490
and could teach us about a thing
or two and yeah, you know, 

402
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,630
learning about how to, you know,
redo your brake pads. 

403
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,770
It was a drum. 
Drum brake, get up. 

404
00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:15,370
Yeah, cities, of course. 
So it was, it was, it was pretty

405
00:23:15,940 --> 00:23:18,270
informative and educational, 
let's say. 

406
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,760
And then, you know, instead of 
going out getting into trouble 

407
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:24,590
on a Friday night, you just hang
out in the garage with a few few

408
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,930
buddies learning about some 
aspect of the vehicle or 

409
00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:33,150
fantasizing about it someday 
being done and on the road. 

410
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,550
Amazing. 
So that was that was about two 

411
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,750
years of effort as funny and 
ironic. 

412
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,730
We, you know, in that throughout
that whole, you know, period, I 

413
00:23:42,740 --> 00:23:45,650
remember, you know, again, 
trying to learn about vehicles, 

414
00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:48,310
trying to learn about cars, how 
to how they mechanically work, 

415
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,880
how to, you know, restore, you 
know, old metal and, and bring 

416
00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:56,600
it back to to a state of good 
repair. 

417
00:23:57,250 --> 00:24:01,950
And, you know, being introduced 
to an electric electrical 

418
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,710
harness and, and how that how 
that all sets up. 

419
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,400
So the whole process over a two 
year period was pretty awesome. 

420
00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:14,820
Um, we, we were finishing it up 
this summer before I left for 

421
00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:18,930
university and I remember like 
it was, we had, it was all 

422
00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:20,870
painted, it was all set up, 
everything was running. 

423
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,860
We would, we were so excited and
I, I, I finally, I mentioned 

424
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:28,040
about seatbelts. 
We, we, we drove over my 

425
00:24:28,050 --> 00:24:29,990
brother, my, a couple of my 
buddies, we drove over to the 

426
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,220
local Home Hardware to pick up 
some bolts so that we could 

427
00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:37,230
fasten and the seat belts that 
we had just bought in 1970. 

428
00:24:37,390 --> 00:24:39,440
Many of these vehicles they 
weren't issued with, with 

429
00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:45,180
seatbelts and so we figured we'd
upgrade and, and what, yeah, 

430
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:49,780
while we were in the parking lot
having a chat with a few folks 

431
00:24:49,790 --> 00:24:51,480
because it's a, it's a unique 
vehicle. 

432
00:24:51,810 --> 00:24:53,840
We were so proud of the work we 
had done and. 

433
00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:55,980
And now we were going to get a 
chance to ride and pick up all 

434
00:24:55,990 --> 00:25:02,390
our buddies and driving back 
from the the Home Hardware a 

435
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,250
woman old woman ran a red light 
T boned us in the intersection 

436
00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:09,270
and that was it. 
It was completely destroyed. 

437
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:13,870
So what, what that taught me was
no way appreciate the process 

438
00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:17,680
for everything. 
It can teach you the outcome. 

439
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,210
You'll just have another journey
to to to explore through. 

440
00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:27,630
So that was that was a a hard 
lesson to learn. 

441
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,770
And, and to, you know, to add 
insult to injury, literally, I 

442
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:38,370
was charged with not having 
seatbelts in the vehicle by the,

443
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:43,620
the officer on the scene, which 
was, which was also a great, 

444
00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:46,540
great lesson. 
And, and because I had to, I had

445
00:25:46,550 --> 00:25:51,290
to defend myself to, to a judge 
and actually did a little bit of

446
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:55,810
research and realized, Hey, 
guys, this is we, we, you don't 

447
00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:59,350
need seatbelts. 
Prior to 1972, you, you didn't 

448
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,740
require seat belts for, for 
these vehicles. 

449
00:26:01,750 --> 00:26:05,750
So I was able to kind of 
understand, you know, the system

450
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,810
a little, have a little bit of 
insight into the legal framework

451
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:14,230
for this and then make a case to
to the judge. 

452
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,680
And you know, I guess she just 
took pity on the 1617 year old 

453
00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:21,730
who just crashed their car. 
But. 

454
00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:24,230
Just spent two years revealed. 
Yeah, you explained all that. 

455
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,170
Of course I did. 
That's part of the whole pitch 

456
00:26:26,180 --> 00:26:29,170
document that I had in my little
slide presentation. 

457
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,380
But you know, it was, it's sort 
of a, a, you know, 

458
00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:40,620
understanding, you know, the 
rules of, of, of, you know, a 

459
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,660
vehicle when it was built, when 
it was constructed and 

460
00:26:42,670 --> 00:26:45,740
appreciating the value that it 
had and, and that kind of 

461
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:47,340
framework that it was operating 
in. 

462
00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:49,620
And this and they made a 
concession and and dropped the 

463
00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:51,680
charges from that. 
Side this was in the year what? 

464
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:55,030
This was in the mid 90s. 
Yeah, this would have been 95. 

465
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,860
Yeah. 
Yeah, 95 or so. 

466
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:59,360
It's yeah. 
Right. 

467
00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:02,100
That was a little while. 
Ago what a great story. 

468
00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:06,300
Hmm. 
OK, so, so take us to the point 

469
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:09,380
where you know, you're, you're 
going through high school, 

470
00:27:09,390 --> 00:27:14,320
you've, you've come to 
understand that your, your craft

471
00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:18,640
is in your hand and also in your
mind. 

472
00:27:19,290 --> 00:27:22,740
Cause I think that I'm gonna 
make the correlation for you. 

473
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:27,080
But when you talk about the idea
of wrestling, like wrestling is 

474
00:27:27,130 --> 00:27:30,410
strategy, largely, for sure, 
right? 

475
00:27:30,550 --> 00:27:33,540
For sure it's strategy. 
It is. 

476
00:27:34,690 --> 00:27:36,720
Zeeshan, I gotta pause for a 
quick second. 

477
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:39,220
Sorry. 
My wife called me twice. 

478
00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:46,040
Yeah. 
Hi, it's because because I'm in 

479
00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:55,350
the middle of the what you need.
I get those calls too. 

480
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:56,830
If you don't pick them up, 
you're in trouble. 

481
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,830
She's like, you didn't, I'm 
calling you again because you 

482
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,960
didn't, you didn't answer the 
first time. 

483
00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:01,740
Well, because I'm in the middle.
Because I'm in an. 

484
00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:03,910
Interview, Honey. 
And she knows. 

485
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,640
Like I fucking told her kitchen,
don't let any of that make it 

486
00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:12,480
into the recording otherwise I 
will be divorced. 

487
00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:20,800
Alright, so coming back in 321, 
you have the that that strategy 

488
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:22,680
element. 
But then in addition to it, you 

489
00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:28,560
also have there's a whole 
framework of your mind that can 

490
00:28:28,570 --> 00:28:35,910
understand how to work under 
pressure in, in how to flip what

491
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,430
is currently defence into 
offence. 

492
00:28:39,180 --> 00:28:43,870
And that plays largely into 
sitting in a client meeting and 

493
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,770
having a client braid you and 
then flipping that into the 

494
00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:52,670
offence and. 
It is a very useful skill, as it

495
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,130
as it turns out, using other 
peoples energy, yeah. 

496
00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:59,330
And directing, yeah, directing 
it in a kind of positive, 

497
00:28:59,620 --> 00:29:02,540
constructive way. 
So, so, yeah, so, So what did it

498
00:29:02,550 --> 00:29:04,170
look like? 
Did you know when you were in 

499
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:06,890
high school that that first, 
that architecture was an 

500
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:10,470
opportunity, or did you somehow 
stumble upon that through 

501
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,800
conversations? 
Like what did that? 

502
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:16,350
How did that transpire? 
You know, during that, during 

503
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,000
that period, I would say that 
our, our, our house had lots of 

504
00:29:20,010 --> 00:29:24,280
people coming in and out, Yeah. 
And lots of, lots of visitors, 

505
00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:30,260
lots of, you know, social 
exchange and I I in, you know, 

506
00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:35,870
in through introductions of, of 
various people and our other 

507
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,290
artists. 
And, you know, we were, I was, I

508
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:47,760
was definitely, I would say, 
influenced by, you know, all 

509
00:29:47,770 --> 00:29:49,420
sorts of things that people were
interested in. 

510
00:29:49,470 --> 00:29:54,890
And actually, yeah, around that 
time I took a summer job 

511
00:29:54,900 --> 00:30:00,140
position in in Montreal. 
I actually spent a couple of 

512
00:30:00,150 --> 00:30:06,080
summers there working at working
at the library, OK, at the 

513
00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:08,180
university and they had. 
I'm McGill. 

514
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:11,280
At McGill, yeah, at the 
Blackadder Letterman Library, 

515
00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:14,900
they had a collection of 
archives there. 

516
00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:22,180
And the archives had a a 
collection of drawings and 

517
00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:26,770
models from various architects 
who have donated Canadian 

518
00:30:26,780 --> 00:30:28,820
architects who have donated 
their their works to they're one

519
00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:35,260
of the the key feature 
architects was Moshe Safdie had 

520
00:30:35,270 --> 00:30:38,920
donated much of his work to to 
the Canadian architecture 

521
00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:42,360
collection. 
And I got a chance to to help 

522
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:48,190
out, lend a hand mostly with 
cataloguing some of the material

523
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,220
that they would that they would 
receive from Israel. 

524
00:30:51,570 --> 00:30:54,660
And we would have to, you know, 
roll the drawings out and 

525
00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,180
catalog them and, you know, help
out with the with the 

526
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:59,260
collections. 
That was that was a pretty cool 

527
00:30:59,530 --> 00:31:03,000
opportunity to just sort of see 
this is what's happening in 

528
00:31:03,010 --> 00:31:07,340
architecture right now or had 
been an active conversation in, 

529
00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:10,400
in architecture And you could 
see that play out in Montreal. 

530
00:31:10,410 --> 00:31:13,740
And so at the same time, I'm 
working on Mocha safeties 

531
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:16,240
archives now rolling out his 
drawings. 

532
00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:20,350
I'm witnessing and seeing, you 
know, Moshe Safdie's Expo 67 

533
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,450
Habitat 67 across, across the 
river. 

534
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:28,880
And so that was a really fun, 
um, you know, thing to witness 

535
00:31:28,890 --> 00:31:32,240
about, about something going 
from a concept state to a built 

536
00:31:32,250 --> 00:31:36,180
form state and then kind of an 
engagement and then see that in 

537
00:31:36,190 --> 00:31:38,440
use and how that builds out the 
the city. 

538
00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:42,420
So I was, I would say, looking 
back on it, obviously quite, 

539
00:31:42,430 --> 00:31:45,640
quite influenced by by that 
opportunity. 

540
00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:47,820
Yeah. 
So by the time I got into grade 

541
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:51,840
eleven, grade and grade 12, so 
we used to have 13 grades at one

542
00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:56,680
point here in Ontario, but I, I 
knew I wanted to, to go into, 

543
00:31:57,090 --> 00:32:00,580
into architecture and you know, 
my family had moved quite a bit.

544
00:32:00,590 --> 00:32:03,280
My mother, as I mentioned, was 
in, was in real estate. 

545
00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:05,940
So we would, she would buy 
something, fix it up. 

546
00:32:06,010 --> 00:32:08,400
She had three boys. 
We would all get to work, she'd 

547
00:32:08,410 --> 00:32:10,580
sell it. 
And so we would do this repeat, 

548
00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:12,380
repeat, and rinse over and over 
again. 

549
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:14,440
How many times were you? 
Involved, I don't know. 

550
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:18,420
I actually, it's funny the house
I live in right now, I have 

551
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:23,050
never spent more than you know, 
5 or 6 years in a single spot 

552
00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:27,040
until I lived in the house that 
I'm in, I'm in now with with my 

553
00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:31,250
family. 
So it was, it was, it was an 

554
00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:35,890
interesting active, dynamic 
moment. 

555
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:40,910
So, you know, I think, I think, 
you know, going, coming out of 

556
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,330
high school, I was pretty sure I
wanted to explore that as a, as 

557
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:48,330
a, because I could draw. 
And I, I was kind of 

558
00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:51,250
appreciating where, where it was
within that kind of, you know, 

559
00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:53,950
larger cultural, where I was 
being finally introduced to a 

560
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,430
larger cultural art scene and 
seeing how that could play out 

561
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:02,510
as a, as a kind of practice, as 
a kind of you Draw Something, 

562
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,370
you build it. 
Wow, that, that, that seems 

563
00:33:05,380 --> 00:33:08,820
pretty cool. 
To this day, I still can't get 

564
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:12,350
over that concept. 
When you see something that you 

565
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,910
had drawn or had conceived of or
or had been working in your 

566
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,790
studio for, for years, 10 years 
to see it built finally. 

567
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,910
I'll never get over that, that 
feeling. 

568
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,400
You know that I've, and if this 
is the case with anyone 

569
00:33:28,410 --> 00:33:32,420
listening, I apologize, but I 
don't know that I've ever spoken

570
00:33:32,430 --> 00:33:39,250
to anyone in this format that 
has had that as their analysis 

571
00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:42,470
of the career as a profession. 
Hmm. 

572
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:46,870
Where there's still the wonder 
and amazement over the fact that

573
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,500
it's built. 
It's cause it to me, that's one 

574
00:33:50,510 --> 00:33:54,420
of the things that I use. 
I, I loved seeing when I was 

575
00:33:54,430 --> 00:33:57,900
working on the construction side
of things was, you know, the 

576
00:33:57,910 --> 00:34:01,660
client comes and meets with you 
and then you build a team and 

577
00:34:01,670 --> 00:34:03,430
then there's the concepts and 
everything. 

578
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,910
And then you start, you start 
your construction process and 

579
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,679
then within time there it is. 
And you can take what was an 

580
00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:14,989
abstract thought and now it's 
you're living and breathing in 

581
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,690
the space. 
But isn't it, isn't it cool 

582
00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:19,420
though, when you stop and think 
about about what a privilege 

583
00:34:19,429 --> 00:34:23,770
that is and then to see and then
measure how did that workout? 

584
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,270
You know, what did we learn from
from that? 

585
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,190
What, what techniques did we 
develop? 

586
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:32,989
You know, it's, it's a thing. 
I think it's really important 

587
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,739
our practice to to take stock. 
Yes. 

588
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,469
On those lessons learned and how
do you redeploy or do it better 

589
00:34:40,540 --> 00:34:42,510
or try in a little different 
way. 

590
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,510
And then, you know, funny 
enough, I was that was there was

591
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,510
an amusement to that I found 
especially, you know, having a 

592
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,199
chance to look at and and review
many of Moshe Safdie's archival 

593
00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:58,360
work from his office. 
So he started with Habitat 67. 

594
00:34:58,690 --> 00:35:02,500
But and many, many people may 
not know this, but but, you 

595
00:35:02,510 --> 00:35:03,860
know, it was it was kind of a 
hit. 

596
00:35:03,870 --> 00:35:08,420
It was like a, a big, you know, 
you know, went straight to the 

597
00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:12,600
top of the Billboard, you know, 
charts and like that was that 

598
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:13,480
was his thing. 
That was. 

599
00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:16,230
His care. 
Project and it came out it went 

600
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:20,820
straight to go straight to 
Platinum and then but he did he 

601
00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:24,960
did he chased that idea for 
years and and you know in a way 

602
00:35:24,970 --> 00:35:28,490
that was like well let's try it 
in this context let's try it on 

603
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:31,260
this terrain let's try it with 
these different shapes let's you

604
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:34,740
know you know could it be could 
there be more enclosures could 

605
00:35:34,750 --> 00:35:38,060
there be an entire city of it? 
Is this a prototype for, for 

606
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:41,140
something, you know, even even 
more how, how can it be 

607
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:43,460
deployed? 
You know, some of them were, you

608
00:35:43,470 --> 00:35:46,460
know, versions of it were 
absolutely fantastic and 

609
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:48,520
inspiring. 
Some of them were, were kind of 

610
00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:54,320
comical, I found. 
But it is it I, I remember 

611
00:35:54,330 --> 00:35:58,250
thinking, well, this guy's 
really working through and 

612
00:35:58,260 --> 00:36:01,160
trying to understand this, this 
idea further. 

613
00:36:01,170 --> 00:36:04,740
And I think, I think architects 
get this wonderful privilege and

614
00:36:04,750 --> 00:36:06,930
anyone in the building industry,
you know, whether you're a 

615
00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:08,550
developer, whether you're a 
planner or whether you're a 

616
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,170
builder, whether you're, you 
know, the person doing the 

617
00:36:11,180 --> 00:36:13,760
baseboards or, you know, 
installing the, the, the, the 

618
00:36:13,770 --> 00:36:15,410
windows, the craft that we all 
have. 

619
00:36:15,420 --> 00:36:20,770
And we, we all sort of are 
humbled by how many folks it 

620
00:36:20,780 --> 00:36:22,680
takes to pull something like 
this off. 

621
00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:25,690
So. 
Did the laborer that's sweeping 

622
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:29,000
plays a massive role? 
Because when that place is 

623
00:36:29,010 --> 00:36:31,300
clean, yeah. 
Now everybody else has a 

624
00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:35,730
standard of how they're gonna 
work The, the, the, the entire 

625
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:39,830
machine that is this industry is
so interesting. 

626
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,690
And I think that, to be honest, 
a lot of people don't stop to 

627
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:46,070
take stock of certain things. 
They might, they might think 

628
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,950
about, you know, when they're 
doing their photo shoots of a 

629
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,720
completed piece of work. 
But even then, that's still, you

630
00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:55,400
know, I wanna capture this. 
Is it like stopping? 

631
00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:59,300
And so I'm sorry. 
I'm gonna go no, please thought 

632
00:36:59,310 --> 00:37:04,030
on this, but one of one of the 
greatest moments I can think of 

633
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,610
in my life. 
Someone told me that when I when

634
00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:10,790
we, my wife Wendy and I were 
getting married, that an 

635
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,540
important thing to do at our 
wedding was to be together the 

636
00:37:13,550 --> 00:37:16,230
whole night so that you have the
same shared experience and you 

637
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,530
didn't separate from each other.
And then at one stage during the

638
00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:23,570
evening, when before people go 
and leave, you stop and you go 

639
00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:28,160
to a corner and the two of you 
just admire the fact that 

640
00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:30,500
everyone's there. 
You stop and take stock of the 

641
00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:33,110
night. 
And on big nights, I've always 

642
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,140
tried to do that when I go to 
something. 

643
00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:41,270
And so at our wedding, I 
remember standing in the corner 

644
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,520
and taking stock of the night 
and how amazing that was that we

645
00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:50,490
could share that together 
because the night goes like this

646
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,790
and the same thing happens. 
Even though projects take years 

647
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,410
to to eventually come to the 
point where they're complete, it

648
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:02,330
does feel like it goes. 
There's peers were feel slow but

649
00:38:02,340 --> 00:38:04,950
then when it's done it feels 
like it was a blink of an eye. 

650
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:09,590
I mean, again, I mean, I 
probably don't take stock and 

651
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,300
appreciate there's taking stock 
and there's, there's, there's, 

652
00:38:12,350 --> 00:38:17,060
you know, learning from, from 
the lessons or the mistakes or, 

653
00:38:17,070 --> 00:38:20,480
or what what had worked. 
But that act of appreciation, 

654
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:24,240
yeah, that can be really hard to
do, especially for people in the

655
00:38:24,340 --> 00:38:26,240
in the in the in the building 
industry. 

656
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:31,070
I would say there are a few 
projects I still walk into this 

657
00:38:31,180 --> 00:38:34,070
to this day. 
And I just, I just, I kind of do

658
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,250
one of these. 
I put a blinder on. 

659
00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:37,960
I just, I can't I, I remember 
that detail. 

660
00:38:37,970 --> 00:38:39,950
That detail gave me a lot of. 
Stress. 

661
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,000
Stress, but, you know, that's 
kind of life there. 

662
00:38:44,010 --> 00:38:47,000
There's it's, it's, it can be 
messy like that. 

663
00:38:47,010 --> 00:38:48,560
And it's a, it's a process. 
And yeah. 

664
00:38:48,570 --> 00:38:53,970
And I again, just going back to,
you know, there's, there's all 

665
00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:56,470
kinds of moments in this 
industry to place value. 

666
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,450
Yeah. 
And, you know, it's, it's, it's 

667
00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:03,810
fun to look at the pictures in 
the, in the magazines and pick 

668
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:07,870
up the awards and, you know, 
reference the projects for 

669
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,340
future opportunities. 
Uh, it's also a lot of fun to 

670
00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:14,770
just, you know, savor the 
moments that you're having and 

671
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:18,000
just take, take, take a moment 
to appreciate, you know, how fun

672
00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:22,860
is it to document this or 
discover in your research some 

673
00:39:22,930 --> 00:39:27,420
incredible story or look at how 
the community is valuating this,

674
00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:33,710
you know, moment in their 
neighborhood, You know, someone 

675
00:39:33,770 --> 00:39:38,400
exploring a new innovative 
approach to, you know, a 

676
00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:41,170
conservation technique or 
building technique that were, 

677
00:39:42,030 --> 00:39:45,440
you know, those are, those are, 
those are incredible moments. 

678
00:39:45,450 --> 00:39:47,870
They, that's what builds our 
practice together. 

679
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,610
And if we're not, if we're not 
taking that, that moment to, to 

680
00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:54,560
appreciate it, we're actually 
we're, we're not doing it 

681
00:39:54,570 --> 00:39:55,900
justice. 
What it is to build. 

682
00:39:55,950 --> 00:39:58,760
Yeah, a practice cause that's 
how many of us learned. 

683
00:39:58,770 --> 00:40:02,260
It's how many of us apprentice. 
And it's it again. 

684
00:40:02,270 --> 00:40:04,610
I guess it's it's no surprise 
this is an apprentice. 

685
00:40:05,620 --> 00:40:09,870
Practice that we that we, we 
have to remind ourselves of 

686
00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:14,950
yeah, it takes years to learn 
this, this stuff and you know, 

687
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,610
maybe, maybe you'll get good at 
it at, at at some point so. 

688
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,880
If you do hopefully take stock 
of that, Yeah. 

689
00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:25,650
OK, so let's get it. 
Let's get into school. 

690
00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:28,330
So. 
So what did you worked at the 

691
00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:31,700
library and and understanding 
safety and what he's done. 

692
00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:34,920
So how did you how did you 
determine where you want to 

693
00:40:34,930 --> 00:40:37,440
apply and what is what it looked
like? 

694
00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:39,480
Did you need a portfolio? 
I mean, yeah. 

695
00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:44,860
I mean, and, and at the time I 
would say Waterloo was like #1 

696
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:49,330
because of their, their Co-op 
program and, and I really wanted

697
00:40:49,340 --> 00:40:52,100
to go there. 
I really wanted to get into to 

698
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:56,840
to McGill. 
Um, I ended up going to UFT. 

699
00:40:56,990 --> 00:41:04,510
OK, which in hindsight, I, I, I,
I, I really did benefit from not

700
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,860
just for, you know, being a kind
of major, major city with the 

701
00:41:10,620 --> 00:41:15,120
the, you know, much of our 
industry that in the in the mid 

702
00:41:15,130 --> 00:41:17,680
90s was kind of, it was kind of 
hanging on. 

703
00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:21,140
It was kind of clinging post 
early 90s recession. 

704
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:26,280
Yeah. 
And, but also the, the, the, 

705
00:41:26,330 --> 00:41:29,380
the, the, the, my class at the 
time, the, the people that I met

706
00:41:29,390 --> 00:41:34,250
in studio were some of the most 
incredible, wonderful people 

707
00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:38,520
I've, I've ever met who I 
actually, you know, highly value

708
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:40,470
those relationships to this, to 
this day. 

709
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,310
They're, they're the, the cohort
that I'm still doing business 

710
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,420
with on a on a daily basis. 
And who are some of those people

711
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:48,730
instead of pure? 
I was like who? 

712
00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:52,940
I would say like some of the 
people that you're your closest 

713
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:57,420
with still. 
So in in that class was A and 

714
00:41:57,430 --> 00:42:00,370
I've I'm gonna I'm gonna kick 
myself for leaving out all the 

715
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:01,180
names. 
But like there. 

716
00:42:01,190 --> 00:42:04,580
Was a wrong yeah, hold on if 
you're just this preface this if

717
00:42:04,590 --> 00:42:06,980
you're not mentioned here, 
please don't be offended like 

718
00:42:06,990 --> 00:42:09,200
this is on on the spot 
situation. 

719
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,610
You know, you go back and look 
at your thank yous when you win 

720
00:42:11,620 --> 00:42:12,850
an Oscar, and it's never gonna 
be. 

721
00:42:13,070 --> 00:42:15,320
Well, now I don't wanna name 
anybody, but no. 

722
00:42:15,330 --> 00:42:17,230
But it was, it was, it was like.
Don't leave it. 

723
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,010
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
But it was an incredible cohort 

724
00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:25,810
of individuals. 
You are, I would, I would say, 

725
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,990
um, to this day, innovating and,
you know, actively practicing 

726
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,840
and setting new conversations 
up. 

727
00:42:33,850 --> 00:42:38,840
And I would say out, out of that
moment, you know, the late, the 

728
00:42:38,850 --> 00:42:43,420
late 90s coming into the early 
2000s, there was there was a, I 

729
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:47,390
think a special moment for 
anyone graduating in that, in 

730
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,180
that sort of, you know, late 90s
to, to late 2000s. 

731
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:56,430
We all graduated into one of the
biggest building building booms 

732
00:42:56,510 --> 00:43:00,860
in in this country's history. 
Yeah, it's, it's been 

733
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,260
incredible. 
I mean, some might argue the 

734
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:08,810
building boom started, you know,
as far back as as the sort of 

735
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:10,930
post war era. 
And I would agree with that. 

736
00:43:10,940 --> 00:43:14,030
We in Canada made huge 
investments in infrastructure 

737
00:43:14,340 --> 00:43:20,170
and community building at that, 
at that post war moment. 

738
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:26,980
But I would say we've, we've all
been quite lucky in our, in our 

739
00:43:26,990 --> 00:43:32,500
timing to, to experience that 
entering into a workforce when 

740
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:35,000
you know, a generation prior to 
that we. 

741
00:43:35,350 --> 00:43:37,000
You wouldn't. 
Have a job you wouldn't. 

742
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:39,660
I mean all the architects who 
graduated in the sort of mid 

743
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:41,200
90s, they just went into other 
fields. 

744
00:43:41,210 --> 00:43:42,980
They went into other you. 
Know the recession? 

745
00:43:43,070 --> 00:43:44,710
Of the recession. 
So there was, there were just 

746
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,070
simply no, no drive. 
So when we entered the 

747
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,520
workforce, it was, it was there 
was a missing cohort. 

748
00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:55,250
So worth noting in this 
discussion this period of time 

749
00:43:55,970 --> 00:44:05,050
is that in the year of I think 
it was 2004, 2005. 

750
00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:11,590
In that time frame Dubai had the
most cranes per capita in the 

751
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,760
world. 
I know this cause I did a short 

752
00:44:14,770 --> 00:44:21,780
thesis on this and 2nd to Dubai 
globally was Toronto at that 

753
00:44:21,790 --> 00:44:23,320
time at that time. 
Incredible. 

754
00:44:23,370 --> 00:44:28,570
Yeah, like we had more cranes 
than any other city than Dubai. 

755
00:44:29,410 --> 00:44:31,900
I mean, that's impressive. 
I I'd heard that stat of like 

756
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:35,470
we, we had more cranes in 
Toronto than any other city in 

757
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,520
North America in North America 
and or the the next three 

758
00:44:38,530 --> 00:44:41,350
combined in in North America. 
I hadn't heard that about. 

759
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,360
Yeah, it's been, it's been 
impressive. 

760
00:44:43,370 --> 00:44:50,630
So and and and and in addition 
to that, you're right in between

761
00:44:51,450 --> 00:44:54,300
the 91 recession in the 2008 
recession. 

762
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:59,930
So you have like a massive 
influx of opportunity to be able

763
00:44:59,940 --> 00:45:02,430
to go and design and jobs and 
all the rest of it. 

764
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:06,930
So what I what I did want to ask
you was when you were in school,

765
00:45:06,940 --> 00:45:08,940
just before you get to the end 
of school, but when you were in 

766
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:14,440
school, were there any 
professors that you had that 

767
00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:21,410
really set your mind on fire 
with what was possible or gave 

768
00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:24,750
you some creative tools that you
have found have stuck with you 

769
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,570
in a way that have shaped who 
you are as a professional, as a 

770
00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:30,200
professional? 
Absolutely. 

771
00:45:30,210 --> 00:45:33,980
I mean, I mean those those 
professors are, are now your 

772
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:36,160
colleagues, you know, when you 
get out into the industry. 

773
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:40,510
So, yeah, you have a again, you 
realize just how important their

774
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,650
contribution was to your career 
and how important it is to to, 

775
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,650
you know, extend that yeah to to
the next tier coming up. 

776
00:45:49,020 --> 00:45:54,330
But I would I would say a few 
come to mind right away. 

777
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,870
I would say John sneers right at
the top of my list. 

778
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:05,030
An incredibly creative, 
thoughtful individual who is 

779
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:14,660
just, you know, full of so many 
incredible references and, you 

780
00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:20,300
know, thoughtful, great guy, I 
would say, and just an excellent

781
00:46:20,370 --> 00:46:26,220
designer, I would say. 
Kim Story and James Brown in 

782
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:30,960
their practice while I was 
finishing up in university. 

783
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:35,200
They were, they were working on 
the Young and Dundas Square at 

784
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:39,590
the time. 
And I've, I mean, I, I think in,

785
00:46:39,780 --> 00:46:44,430
in Toronto for, for, for those 
of us, for those of you who, who

786
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,990
weren't around when, when that 
design was unveiled, when you 

787
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,420
know, that that project was 
announced and Kim and James had 

788
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:57,200
won the project, the entire 
architectural design community 

789
00:46:57,490 --> 00:47:02,640
was beyond ecstatic and excited 
for a new public realm. 

790
00:47:02,910 --> 00:47:06,840
The creation of, of an extension
and expansion of our, of public 

791
00:47:06,850 --> 00:47:11,000
space was a really exciting 
moment for, for, for all of us. 

792
00:47:11,010 --> 00:47:14,500
So it was a real celebratory, 
awesome moment. 

793
00:47:14,510 --> 00:47:19,440
And, and, you know, I actually, 
Kim was was my thesis advisor 

794
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:28,330
and that was just a a wonderful 
experience to to have her 

795
00:47:28,340 --> 00:47:32,130
insight into, into the work that
I was exploring. 

796
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,230
And it's, it's funny what you, 
you try and obsess, you explore 

797
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,960
during, during school. 
I think at the time I had, I 

798
00:47:40,970 --> 00:47:43,930
was, I was, I was interested in 
the conditioning of 

799
00:47:43,940 --> 00:47:45,600
architecture. 
Like, OK, well, what happens 

800
00:47:45,610 --> 00:47:47,240
after you build it? 
Like what? 

801
00:47:47,330 --> 00:47:50,980
How do these things get used? 
How do they last? 

802
00:47:50,990 --> 00:47:53,970
Do they get modified? 
Do they is there? 

803
00:47:53,980 --> 00:47:56,430
Like is this part of a lineage 
of thing? 

804
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,410
Or a future? 
Proofing this is but I yeah, 

805
00:47:58,420 --> 00:47:59,970
yeah. 
And and I wasn't thinking I had 

806
00:47:59,980 --> 00:48:02,540
never heard of adaptive reuse 
prior to to that. 

807
00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:07,410
I hadn't, I hadn't articulated. 
I was trying to understand what 

808
00:48:07,420 --> 00:48:11,800
are the conditions that set up 
really exciting moments like 

809
00:48:11,850 --> 00:48:14,560
like Young and Dundas Square or 
the change that we were seeing 

810
00:48:14,570 --> 00:48:17,580
on our early changes that we 
were seeing on our waterfront at

811
00:48:17,590 --> 00:48:22,870
the time or the emergence of of 
I knew what we saw as a 

812
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,730
condominium. 
I remember Leo Desorcy walking 

813
00:48:25,740 --> 00:48:32,070
into our first year introduction
to, to to city and municipal 

814
00:48:32,140 --> 00:48:36,420
approvals. 
And he came in the first day of 

815
00:48:36,430 --> 00:48:42,270
class quite excited about a new 
building type form that has 

816
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,650
emerged in Toronto. 
And it was, it was called the 

817
00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:49,690
condominium. 
And he he put an image up on the

818
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,950
on the screen and it was a 
concept design for District 

819
00:48:53,960 --> 00:49:01,210
Lofts designed by by Peter Kruse
and walked us through what what 

820
00:49:01,220 --> 00:49:05,990
this was and how dynamic that 
that, that the design is and 

821
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,950
what this meant for, for Toronto
as a place that was starting to 

822
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,630
grow. 
He was quite, you could feel his

823
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,730
enthusiasm and excitement for, 
for, for that. 

824
00:49:15,740 --> 00:49:19,990
So, yeah, no, definitely you FT 
being so connected to the 

825
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,810
industry at the time and a kind 
of moment of relief and optimism

826
00:49:26,860 --> 00:49:30,290
or the architecture design 
community. 

827
00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:37,740
That was the beginning of what 
was to become a pretty expansive

828
00:49:37,780 --> 00:49:44,890
exploratory 25 year period to be
on this in, in my career and 

829
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:46,210
which is pretty, which is pretty
cool. 

830
00:49:46,220 --> 00:49:50,870
Again, I feel quite, quite lucky
to have been coming up through 

831
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,690
that and gaining, gaining the 
experience that I that I have 

832
00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:56,470
and sharing that with, with, 
with others. 

833
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:03,000
So and university's fun like to 
be in the city and as a former 

834
00:50:03,010 --> 00:50:06,130
Brampton boy, like, well, hey, 
what's going on here? 

835
00:50:06,140 --> 00:50:07,480
This is this is a whole lot of 
fun. 

836
00:50:07,530 --> 00:50:09,260
But also, you're coming up at a 
time. 

837
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:14,790
I mean, I was just funny as on a
previous episode to now than 

838
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,160
when that from when this is 
released, there's an episode 

839
00:50:17,170 --> 00:50:20,960
with the design agency and we 
were chatting all about like the

840
00:50:20,970 --> 00:50:24,320
scene of Toronto back when it 
was like bars and clubs. 

841
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:30,900
And you know, another statistic 
for you that Toronto had the, 

842
00:50:34,270 --> 00:50:36,360
we're trying to remember what 
this exact style was, but I 

843
00:50:36,370 --> 00:50:39,850
think we had, and then people 
will second guess me on this, 

844
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:45,580
but I'm almost positive we had 
more bars in clubs per capita in

845
00:50:45,590 --> 00:50:49,200
the downtown core than there 
were in New York. 

846
00:50:49,250 --> 00:50:51,200
Is that right? 
I did not know that. 

847
00:50:51,350 --> 00:50:52,560
That seems hard to. 
Imagine. 

848
00:50:52,570 --> 00:50:54,460
I know. 
But actually, as I try and 

849
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:59,020
teleport my brain back to that. 
You think of the strip of like 

850
00:50:59,030 --> 00:51:02,860
Richmond and Adelaide and what 
that was like in the, in, you 

851
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:09,040
know, the late 90s and early 
2000s and every single door was 

852
00:51:09,050 --> 00:51:10,900
a borrower club. 
It was fun. 

853
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:14,430
I remember, I remember having 
fun, maybe too much fun, right? 

854
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,940
But now that I think about it, 
but actually it was, it was. 

855
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:18,360
And where they, where have they 
all? 

856
00:51:18,430 --> 00:51:21,680
The condos now. 
And actually appreciating maybe 

857
00:51:21,690 --> 00:51:27,780
what that was as a result of, 
you know, an early form of 

858
00:51:27,790 --> 00:51:31,250
renewed interest in in the city 
and the kind of the the well, 

859
00:51:31,260 --> 00:51:34,870
what we would say today is that 
kind of meanwhile use just 

860
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,730
making like engaging all this 
extra square footage like former

861
00:51:39,740 --> 00:51:46,440
warehouses, former offices and 
people returning to the cities 

862
00:51:46,450 --> 00:51:50,840
from the sort of outflow out 
migration out of the the decade 

863
00:51:50,850 --> 00:51:52,470
before. 
So it's a great time. 

864
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,650
It was it was a pretty 
incredible time actually. 

865
00:51:54,940 --> 00:52:00,520
I never lived downtown. 
I after I think my first year in

866
00:52:00,530 --> 00:52:04,890
residence, you know, I would, I 
would bounce around a little 

867
00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:07,610
bit, you know, get a little spot
up in the annex, get a little 

868
00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:12,860
spot over on the West side. 
And then I ended up spending 

869
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:16,060
some time out in Parkdale, and 
actually that was where the the 

870
00:52:16,070 --> 00:52:19,640
affordable rent was at the time 
in these little little 

871
00:52:19,650 --> 00:52:21,520
warehouses. 
I was in a place on Atlantic 

872
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:28,240
Ave. and so I would say 
sometimes feel shy about 

873
00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:30,760
admitting this. 
I did my five year degree in 

874
00:52:30,770 --> 00:52:34,400
architecture in eight. 
It turns out university is kind 

875
00:52:34,410 --> 00:52:37,730
of expensive, right? 
And so I had to get a little bit

876
00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:40,190
creative with. 
Here's how you had to do it, 

877
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,350
man. 
But it was. 

878
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,570
It's just more to say in in 
addition to the fun that I was 

879
00:52:45,580 --> 00:52:50,630
having in studios and out in the
scene, I actually found myself 

880
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,320
quite distracted and enamored by
other communities that I was 

881
00:52:55,330 --> 00:52:58,220
being introduced to at that 
time. 

882
00:52:58,230 --> 00:53:02,790
And, and we would, I remember 
paying my how to pay rent and, 

883
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:07,120
and it all I would need to do is
throw one giant rave party and 

884
00:53:07,130 --> 00:53:10,280
that would cover, you know, two 
months worth of rent. 

885
00:53:10,580 --> 00:53:14,730
And so, you know, after the 
first one, he realized this is 

886
00:53:14,820 --> 00:53:16,810
this is easy, This is, this is 
awesome. 

887
00:53:16,820 --> 00:53:20,670
And so we would a group of us 
that lived together, we would 

888
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,830
throw these massive $25 at the 
door. 

889
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,300
You know, we would all work the 
bar. 

890
00:53:26,310 --> 00:53:28,670
We would have DJ. 
We just have these, you know, 

891
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,140
incredible events, you know, 
you'd have like some special 

892
00:53:33,150 --> 00:53:36,220
guests with Darth Vader and a 
few stormtroopers show up and 

893
00:53:36,670 --> 00:53:38,120
everybody's having all kinds of 
fun. 

894
00:53:38,130 --> 00:53:40,730
So actually that was that was 
one of the most creative ways to

895
00:53:40,740 --> 00:53:45,240
figure out how to finance my way
through the back half of of 

896
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:48,020
university. 
And actually I will say that. 

897
00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:52,640
Entrepreneurial. 
Little Well, again I would I was

898
00:53:52,650 --> 00:53:53,340
just having. 
Fun. 

899
00:53:53,350 --> 00:53:57,080
I get it. 
And, and but when I when I 

900
00:53:57,090 --> 00:54:02,210
started at a certain point that 
became the white to to to sort 

901
00:54:02,220 --> 00:54:05,970
of manage. 
And I, I remember it as I was 

902
00:54:05,980 --> 00:54:08,520
nearing the end of that process.
OK, man, I'm gonna have to get a

903
00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:11,470
real job. 
It's at some point and I. 

904
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,350
Was as a promoter. 
Why was? 

905
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,150
I'll be honest, I was because I 
was. 

906
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,210
I actually took a year off to do
a few art shows. 

907
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,140
I was exploring interests in 
film. 

908
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:28,690
I was exploring different 
various opportunities, you know,

909
00:54:28,740 --> 00:54:31,840
taking a side gig here and there
as you try and sort of pay your 

910
00:54:31,850 --> 00:54:33,630
way figure figure things out. 
Yeah. 

911
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:40,500
And then my last year, so I had 
done all my my, my credits for 

912
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:42,230
the most part. 
And then I just had one more 

913
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:44,630
year of of studio left, or maybe
I did a vice versa. 

914
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,410
Any with my last year of school 
I I had to be working full time 

915
00:54:49,420 --> 00:54:53,890
like that was that was it and I 
applied to a few positions. 

916
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:59,900
One position I applied to was 
this sort of scrappy studio. 

917
00:54:59,970 --> 00:55:03,980
It was a small firm, 7 or 8 
people and they, they worked on 

918
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:07,800
little old heritage buildings. 
And a friend of mine, Tom 

919
00:55:07,810 --> 00:55:12,950
Folland, had introduced me to, 
um, one of the founders there, 

920
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,150
Michael McClellan. 
And what? 

921
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,590
Was your called? 
The studio was called ERA 

922
00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:19,130
Architects. 
Yeah, interesting. 

923
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,830
And it was, it was a great, a 
great introduction. 

924
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,270
And I really, Tom had actually 
been teaching at OCAD and I met 

925
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:29,870
him through mutual mutual 
friends. 

926
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,720
And when I went for the 
interview, I remember just we 

927
00:55:34,730 --> 00:55:36,390
just, we just had a conversation
there. 

928
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,690
There weren't any, you know, big
works that they had been known 

929
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:42,570
for. 
They spoke about process, They 

930
00:55:42,580 --> 00:55:47,610
spoke about, you know, craft. 
They spoke about how the city 

931
00:55:47,620 --> 00:55:51,040
was evolving. 
I thought, oh, this is this is 

932
00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:52,960
kind of my vibe. 
This is kind of the, the, the 

933
00:55:52,970 --> 00:55:55,610
stuff I'm, I'm, I'm into, these 
are urbanists. 

934
00:55:55,830 --> 00:55:59,100
That's what I am. 
I'm an urbanist and they're 

935
00:55:59,110 --> 00:56:02,710
having the discussion around 
existing buildings and these 

936
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:04,060
quote UN quote, heritage 
buildings. 

937
00:56:04,070 --> 00:56:07,870
And I could see that was a sort 
of vehicle for having some 

938
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,910
pretty rich conversations about 
value and then what to do with 

939
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,110
value. 
And that made quite an 

940
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,660
impression on me. 
And so I got a I got a job 

941
00:56:18,670 --> 00:56:21,130
there. 
Now, I didn't tell them at the 

942
00:56:21,140 --> 00:56:25,170
time that I was still in school.
To their minds, they, they 

943
00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:26,730
thought I had graduated. 
Yeah. 

944
00:56:27,180 --> 00:56:32,350
So I lied to them for quite, 
quite some time until it was 

945
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,870
kind of hard to, to, to deny. 
So I was I was finishing up 

946
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,670
school. 
This guys can't come to that 

947
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,330
meeting. 
Yeah, I've class. 

948
00:56:39,340 --> 00:56:40,730
Couldn't. 
Well, I would. 

949
00:56:40,740 --> 00:56:46,350
I would always prioritize the 
the studio work and then when I 

950
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:48,660
when I had a class that I 
couldn't, I had to make up 

951
00:56:48,670 --> 00:56:51,370
something up or I could have an 
appointment or yeah. 

952
00:56:51,380 --> 00:56:55,060
And it was, it was my my actions
were pretty obvious. 

953
00:56:55,070 --> 00:56:59,560
They they sat me between the two
principles at the time, Michael 

954
00:56:59,570 --> 00:57:03,140
McClelland and Edwin Rouse. 
They sat sort of facing each 

955
00:57:03,150 --> 00:57:04,600
other with little partition in 
between. 

956
00:57:04,610 --> 00:57:07,760
And then off to the side, 
visible to both of them was a 

957
00:57:07,770 --> 00:57:09,380
little table. 
And they set me up with this 

958
00:57:09,390 --> 00:57:14,680
little computer, so it was very 
difficult for me to sneak around

959
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:18,390
and keep this a secret. 
And it was probably 3 or 4 

960
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:25,590
months in that Michael had said 
he are you, are you like in 

961
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,690
school right now? 
Like, are you wrapping up? 

962
00:57:27,700 --> 00:57:32,180
Like, yes, actually, I, I, I am.
So they were, they were so great

963
00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:34,350
about it and and so supportive 
and. 

964
00:57:34,580 --> 00:57:36,230
You're you're part of the 
original 10. 

965
00:57:36,490 --> 00:57:42,250
Yeah, Yeah, I think. 
And that was, that was OHK. 

966
00:57:42,260 --> 00:57:47,540
Gosh, that was 2001. 
And I, you know, up until that 

967
00:57:47,550 --> 00:57:50,780
point I, like I said, I was, I 
was, I was exploring the city. 

968
00:57:50,790 --> 00:58:00,020
I worked for a, I got hooked up 
with a grant funded research 

969
00:58:00,030 --> 00:58:02,640
assignment called The Culture of
Cities. 

970
00:58:02,890 --> 00:58:07,890
And it was, It was run through a
shirt grant out of York and I 

971
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:10,430
was doing these studies about 
neighborhoods and communities 

972
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,000
and I had been exploring, you 
know, Kensinger. 

973
00:58:13,010 --> 00:58:18,080
So I had like the beginnings of 
cobbling together knowledge of, 

974
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:21,860
of, you know, moves in the, in 
the city and, and growth 

975
00:58:21,870 --> 00:58:24,000
patterns. 
And I became very excited about 

976
00:58:24,010 --> 00:58:27,080
that. 
So that, that was, I think part 

977
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:29,620
of the entry point into to ERA 
that there was some 

978
00:58:29,630 --> 00:58:32,600
compatibility there. 
I had no skills. 

979
00:58:32,660 --> 00:58:35,500
I, I, I didn't really know 
AutoCAD at the time. 

980
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:39,930
I had some graphic curatorial. 
You knew how to draw. 

981
00:58:40,310 --> 00:58:42,420
And you had to draw my hand was 
excellent. 

982
00:58:42,430 --> 00:58:43,980
Drawing. 
But if anybody wanted to 

983
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:46,340
potentially lose at wrestling, 
they could have that. 

984
00:58:46,350 --> 00:58:49,060
It could take them down, but, 
but, but at that moment, we were

985
00:58:49,070 --> 00:58:53,860
still transitioning from hand 
drawn to to AutoCAD and AutoCAD 

986
00:58:53,870 --> 00:58:55,980
was there it was. 
It was you folks were using it. 

987
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:59,580
Yeah. 
And I, I, I figured it out. 

988
00:58:59,650 --> 00:59:00,940
I figured out enough that I 
could. 

989
00:59:01,270 --> 00:59:06,900
And you UFT wasn't, wasn't a, a,
an education that was 

990
00:59:06,910 --> 00:59:11,400
necessarily doubling down on its
high tech computer skills at the

991
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:13,180
time. 
It was something they dabbled in

992
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:16,320
and introduced us to, but it was
never something I, I was 

993
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:19,400
incredibly drawn towards. 
That was one of those, you know,

994
00:59:19,410 --> 00:59:23,220
artsy guys having having fun 
doing that stuff. 

995
00:59:23,230 --> 00:59:27,870
So, yeah, I would say the, the 
sort of transition into the 

996
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:32,160
workforce came through an 
interest in, in the city and was

997
00:59:32,170 --> 00:59:35,420
enough to kind of keep my 
interest in, in architecture as 

998
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:39,250
a, as a medium. 
But I, I remember one of the 

999
00:59:39,260 --> 00:59:42,290
first projects I ever worked on 
there wasn't, wasn't a design 

1000
00:59:42,300 --> 00:59:44,150
project in any way. 
It was, again, it was a 

1001
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:51,300
cataloging exercise of all the 
cultural institutions across the

1002
00:59:51,310 --> 00:59:53,820
city. 
So it was a mapping assignment, 

1003
00:59:53,830 --> 01:00:00,130
so to speak of, and it was a a 
guy by the name of Jeff Evanson.

1004
01:00:00,970 --> 01:00:07,150
And and I forget Anna's last 
name, it'll come to me with ERA 

1005
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:11,750
mapping out, taking stock of all
the the city owned cultural 

1006
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:17,320
institutions assets and, you 
know, artifacts and sculptures 

1007
01:00:17,330 --> 01:00:20,030
throughout the city. 
And so that was that was a lot 

1008
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,410
of fun, but it was an excel 
documentation of sorts. 

1009
01:00:22,420 --> 01:00:25,530
And then going out into the 
field and trying to find, you 

1010
01:00:25,540 --> 01:00:28,230
know, are these is this, is this
a studio space? 

1011
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:29,510
Is this a theatre space? 
Right. 

1012
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,720
What and start start to 
classify? 

1013
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,610
And and understand. 
Yeah, creating the rolodex of 

1014
01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:37,030
of. 
Yeah. 

1015
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,530
And then, and then being able to
what's working, what's not 

1016
01:00:40,540 --> 01:00:45,810
working and classifying them 
into types and working with the 

1017
01:00:45,820 --> 01:00:50,800
City of Toronto to understand 
what's, what's working in the 

1018
01:00:50,810 --> 01:00:54,700
system, what's, what's 
fostering, you know, incubator 

1019
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:59,850
type startups for, for artists 
and what are kind of more 

1020
01:01:00,580 --> 01:01:06,000
establish, you know, assets and 
theatres that are attracted to a

1021
01:01:06,010 --> 01:01:10,150
different level and quality of, 
of so like really cataloging an 

1022
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,010
aspect of culture in the city. 
I thought that was the coolest. 

1023
01:01:14,020 --> 01:01:16,630
I just thought that was when, 
what, what could you do with 

1024
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,370
this information? 
What could you sort of plan 

1025
01:01:19,380 --> 01:01:22,220
forward and make recommendations
and strategic management of 

1026
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:24,690
those assets? 
I thought that was like a 

1027
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:27,730
fascinating exercise to, to be 
involved with. 

1028
01:01:27,820 --> 01:01:32,380
Again, no drawing, but you know,
thinking and problem solving and

1029
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:34,230
understanding what's what's 
missing what. 

1030
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,740
Works developing a knowledge 
base and like of of when you 

1031
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:40,480
talk about urbanist like that is
the definition of urbanist. 

1032
01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:45,240
Like you become the source of 
knowledge for what's happening 

1033
01:01:45,250 --> 01:01:47,900
in the city and what's not 
happening in the city, but where

1034
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:51,820
it is, it's so, it's so 
interesting. 

1035
01:01:51,830 --> 01:01:54,300
Yeah, it was, it was, it was 
really cool and it was, it was 

1036
01:01:54,310 --> 01:01:56,410
cool that. 
And. 

1037
01:01:56,420 --> 01:01:58,790
We're thinking about. 
This analog Google Earth. 

1038
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:01,610
Yeah, it was. 
But but that people were 

1039
01:02:01,620 --> 01:02:03,630
thinking about this. 
Yeah, this hadn't been. 

1040
01:02:05,140 --> 01:02:07,650
I got that architecture was 
considered and like, you know, 

1041
01:02:07,660 --> 01:02:13,400
details and yes, it is, but it 
was also contributor to some 

1042
01:02:13,470 --> 01:02:18,060
bigger conversations, right? 
You know in, in, in, you know 

1043
01:02:18,070 --> 01:02:22,110
how the city is being managed 
and and understood so. 

1044
01:02:23,060 --> 01:02:28,320
So, so you started there 2001, 
you complete your degree over 

1045
01:02:28,330 --> 01:02:32,420
the next 15 years and. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1046
01:02:32,430 --> 01:02:36,020
No, I it's the, it's the, it's 
the five and eight model. 

1047
01:02:36,070 --> 01:02:38,240
Give it a shot. 
It's a, it's a whole lot of, 

1048
01:02:38,330 --> 01:02:43,580
it's a whole lot of fun. 
But you know, out of the early 

1049
01:02:43,590 --> 01:02:49,510
2, I would say between 2001 and 
2005, I, I, I got a chance to 

1050
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,690
work on a whole range of, of 
projects. 

1051
01:02:51,700 --> 01:02:58,740
And what I thought was the 
coolest was, you know, again in 

1052
01:02:58,750 --> 01:03:02,070
the, in the late 90s, it, it was
hard to get a job working in 

1053
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,810
architecture like especially as 
a student. 

1054
01:03:03,820 --> 01:03:08,590
So like I I found it hard to get
a job answering phones at a 

1055
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,210
front desk in an architecture 
firm. 

1056
01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:14,950
There were many offices that I 
got yelled out of for, you know,

1057
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,770
trying to force my way in and 
put my CV in front of somebody. 

1058
01:03:17,780 --> 01:03:19,900
I'll leave those names out. 
You know who you are. 

1059
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:24,330
But it was it. 
It was. 

1060
01:03:24,340 --> 01:03:29,010
It was it was a time to really 
appreciate while in those in 

1061
01:03:29,020 --> 01:03:32,750
that early 2000 period of of 
your age, just what's going on 

1062
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,210
in the design scene right in in 
Toronto. 

1063
01:03:36,220 --> 01:03:39,330
And at the time, you know, we 
got a chance to work with, you 

1064
01:03:39,340 --> 01:03:41,490
know, many because we were 
consultants. 

1065
01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:43,700
We were. 
This so this is actually was 

1066
01:03:43,710 --> 01:03:45,330
going to ask you next go, so go 
ahead. 

1067
01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:51,740
No, just as as as consultants 
getting the chance to contribute

1068
01:03:51,750 --> 01:03:57,800
to a project, be, be, be a 
fulfill a very specific role on 

1069
01:03:57,810 --> 01:04:02,040
a, on a much larger project. 
Having a window into these other

1070
01:04:02,050 --> 01:04:05,320
practices that I had, you know, 
only known about, I hadn't 

1071
01:04:05,330 --> 01:04:10,060
worked in and gave you the 
incredible view of design 

1072
01:04:10,070 --> 01:04:13,250
practice and, and what was being
pursued. 

1073
01:04:13,260 --> 01:04:16,400
What were the common questions? 
What were the differences from 

1074
01:04:16,490 --> 01:04:19,780
from how certain practices work?
It was. 

1075
01:04:19,790 --> 01:04:22,360
It was really fun. 
So let's, so let's talk about 

1076
01:04:22,370 --> 01:04:24,850
that because I think that if 
you're listening to this in 

1077
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:32,310
your, not local to Toronto or 
Canada, this next part is what 

1078
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,030
is probably very interesting 
about the structure of the 

1079
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:38,770
practice. 
And that is how the practice 

1080
01:04:38,780 --> 01:04:41,790
operates and what it, what, what
function it serves. 

1081
01:04:41,940 --> 01:04:45,290
Cause you describe it as a 
consultant practice. 

1082
01:04:45,500 --> 01:04:50,110
So why don't you, why don't you 
go and describe how does ERA 

1083
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,390
fulfill the service that it 
provides to the to the community

1084
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,700
at large? 
I mean, I would say at that time

1085
01:04:57,750 --> 01:05:00,760
it was still somewhat early 
days, yeah, in terms of a of a 

1086
01:05:00,770 --> 01:05:02,930
mission, in terms of a business 
model. 

1087
01:05:03,150 --> 01:05:06,340
I mean, just prior to that, I 
mean, Michael and Edwin had been

1088
01:05:06,350 --> 01:05:13,320
running the practice for, for, 
for 10 years out of out of their

1089
01:05:13,330 --> 01:05:15,700
basements, right? 
And then and then they took over

1090
01:05:15,710 --> 01:05:22,160
a space on 10 Saint Mary's, 
space that actually Peter Cruz 

1091
01:05:22,170 --> 01:05:26,700
had been in for some time. 
And it was. 

1092
01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:28,610
It was a big leap for them to 
be. 

1093
01:05:28,620 --> 01:05:31,570
Running on space. 
Take on space, take on France. 

1094
01:05:31,580 --> 01:05:35,550
We had like, you know, eight or 
nine staff between the period of

1095
01:05:35,610 --> 01:05:41,250
2001 to 2005. 
Maybe we got up to 12 people 

1096
01:05:42,590 --> 01:05:46,980
that the the, the view that we 
had into these other practices 

1097
01:05:46,990 --> 01:05:49,120
was it was it was a really 
simple thing. 

1098
01:05:49,130 --> 01:05:50,520
It's just like, let's be 
helpful. 

1099
01:05:50,980 --> 01:05:54,840
Let's help people solve some 
problems that are kind of tricky

1100
01:05:55,330 --> 01:05:56,680
and. 
If in what way? 

1101
01:05:56,750 --> 01:06:00,210
Well, you know, as I mentioned 
earlier, like I, I sat between 

1102
01:06:00,220 --> 01:06:03,170
Michael and Edwin. 
And so anyone who knows these 

1103
01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:09,510
two gentlemen, Edwin is a man 
that's completely out of time 

1104
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:16,650
insofar as he just he's he's 
he's a, he's a student of, you 

1105
01:06:16,660 --> 01:06:20,570
know, craft and bricks and 
mortar and the kind of very 

1106
01:06:20,580 --> 01:06:26,270
tangible practice of 
architecture and conservation 

1107
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:27,590
and restoration. 
Yeah. 

1108
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:32,650
He gets into such detail and 
really expresses his, his 

1109
01:06:32,660 --> 01:06:38,860
interest and his value through 
this very, you know, quiet and 

1110
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:42,850
calm and sophisticated 
contribution. 

1111
01:06:42,910 --> 01:06:46,310
Hmm, Michael is kind of a little
different. 

1112
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:51,770
He's, you know, a very well 
connected, very friendly 

1113
01:06:51,780 --> 01:06:56,530
individual who is everyone's, 
you know, biggest supporter. 

1114
01:06:56,580 --> 01:07:02,070
He's a really positive 
individual who's looking to, um,

1115
01:07:02,610 --> 01:07:05,870
you know, solve problems and, 
you know, identify opportunities

1116
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,750
for, for others. 
And if, if they were 

1117
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,300
opportunities and a great, great
ideas by others. 

1118
01:07:11,310 --> 01:07:12,970
Great, like, let's, let's get 
behind it. 

1119
01:07:12,980 --> 01:07:17,680
So between the two of them, 
these were these were two, you 

1120
01:07:17,690 --> 01:07:26,320
know, different individuals, but
together they hold on power 

1121
01:07:26,330 --> 01:07:36,810
outage. 
OK, we're back. 

1122
01:07:36,820 --> 01:07:39,990
Let's just make sure we're good.
We're good, OK? 

1123
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:41,590
We're good. 
Fuck, dude. 

1124
01:07:43,090 --> 01:07:44,800
I know that's against it with 
you. 

1125
01:07:46,330 --> 01:07:48,650
We just had a massive power 
outage and I don't know if it 

1126
01:07:48,660 --> 01:07:51,590
was just like here locally to 
where we are right now or if it 

1127
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,150
was like a cross city, but what 
had just happened freaked me the

1128
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,110
hell out. 
It was the power of your 

1129
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,770
podcast. 
You overloaded the system. 

1130
01:07:59,780 --> 01:08:02,180
With the power out of farted it 
might have triggered things. 

1131
01:08:03,010 --> 01:08:07,590
OK, so apologies. 
So we're gonna oht. 

1132
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,460
You know what? 
I gotta make sure that it's 

1133
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:18,229
recording from the right source.
Alright, I'm gonna just assume, 

1134
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:20,090
Zeeshan, that somehow we're good
here. 

1135
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,609
I'm sorry if there's any changes
to this which has happened with 

1136
01:08:23,620 --> 01:08:27,050
Wild. 
Alright, so we're gonna go back 

1137
01:08:27,060 --> 01:08:28,490
into it. 
Jeff was describing. 

1138
01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:30,790
Don't know why I just said Jeff.
I just read an e-mail from a guy

1139
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,970
named Jeff. 
Philip was describing the RA. 

1140
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:38,069
You must be talking about my 
twin brother. 

1141
01:08:39,970 --> 01:08:42,720
So I'm gonna stop talking and 
he'll go back to there. 

1142
01:08:42,770 --> 01:08:45,760
We're gonna have to find the 
bridge between what was being 

1143
01:08:45,770 --> 01:08:48,090
discussed before that power 
outage and where we are right 

1144
01:08:48,100 --> 01:08:49,740
now. 
But I'll tell you and I will 

1145
01:08:49,750 --> 01:08:52,040
figure that out. 
I'm saying you and me, Zishan. 

1146
01:08:52,050 --> 01:08:53,939
OK, I'll stop talking. 
So. 

1147
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:56,380
Cool. 
Ready 321. 

1148
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,069
So, yeah, no, the I would say in
that, in that period from 2001 

1149
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:08,770
to 2005, it was, it was a period
that we were just participators 

1150
01:09:08,819 --> 01:09:12,710
in and supporters of the design 
communities. 

1151
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:17,189
We were assisting architects and
I would say mainly our clients 

1152
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,410
at that time were were were 
architects. 

1153
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:27,609
We had very few clients that 
were you know end user or like 

1154
01:09:27,620 --> 01:09:31,439
development like direct with 
developer client. 

1155
01:09:31,550 --> 01:09:35,640
I would say 80 to 90% of our of 
our clientele were other 

1156
01:09:35,649 --> 01:09:39,359
architects and we were Subs to 
them as heritage consultants. 

1157
01:09:39,710 --> 01:09:43,580
And how did they find you? 
I mean at at at that point, it 

1158
01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:45,160
was relationships. 
It was. 

1159
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:49,729
Edwin and Michael had actually 
both worked at Quadric 

1160
01:09:49,740 --> 01:09:55,860
Quadrangle Architects. 
They had left Quadrangle to to 

1161
01:09:55,870 --> 01:10:00,140
start their own their own thing 
working on heritage buildings. 

1162
01:10:00,150 --> 01:10:03,990
Michael had actually worked at 
the City of Toronto in their in 

1163
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,190
their heritage department years 
years prior. 

1164
01:10:07,730 --> 01:10:12,630
He had also worked in Vancouver 
as well. 

1165
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:21,010
And Edwin, who had found his way
to Toronto, had had worked at 

1166
01:10:21,020 --> 01:10:25,100
Quite yeah Quadrangle for a few 
years. 

1167
01:10:25,110 --> 01:10:29,520
And so the two of them met up 
there, got along like a house on

1168
01:10:29,530 --> 01:10:33,760
fire and then, um, started, 
started their practice. 

1169
01:10:33,770 --> 01:10:39,680
So it was still, I think, a 
period in which, you know, they 

1170
01:10:39,690 --> 01:10:42,760
had many relationships with 
other architects in the, in the 

1171
01:10:42,770 --> 01:10:44,740
community and folks that they 
had come across. 

1172
01:10:44,750 --> 01:10:49,900
So it was, it was very much 
again, a, a supportive role. 

1173
01:10:49,970 --> 01:10:53,280
If there was ever, you know, a 
portion of a building that 

1174
01:10:53,290 --> 01:10:55,840
needed some conservation work, 
some bricks and mortar work, 

1175
01:10:55,850 --> 01:10:59,090
Michael and Edwin would, would, 
would help out. 

1176
01:10:59,100 --> 01:11:01,910
That was easy work for 
architects to sub out. 

1177
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:06,470
And it was really specialized 
work and a specialty that both 

1178
01:11:06,780 --> 01:11:09,650
Edwin had enjoyed in the kind of
bricks and mortar side of things

1179
01:11:09,660 --> 01:11:15,260
and Michael had known how to 
navigate the approval side in 

1180
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:17,750
the city, in the city of 
Toronto, in the municipality. 

1181
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:22,630
So it was a good, it was a great
combo between between them both 

1182
01:11:23,010 --> 01:11:29,310
and they they, you know, had had
great success doing doing that. 

1183
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,970
I think that was over in the 
same period they had been 

1184
01:11:32,980 --> 01:11:39,280
working with Cityscape at the 
Distillery District and which 

1185
01:11:39,290 --> 01:11:41,650
was which was a huge amount of 
of fun. 

1186
01:11:41,660 --> 01:11:44,510
I think there was some 
complicated approvals to sort of

1187
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,330
sort through following a kind of
master plan exercise and there 

1188
01:11:47,340 --> 01:11:51,800
was some untangling that Michael
was really quite clever at 

1189
01:11:51,810 --> 01:11:55,570
assisting. 
And Edwin in his knowledge of 

1190
01:11:55,580 --> 01:12:01,610
bricks and mortar was able to 
give very clear, concise raising

1191
01:12:01,620 --> 01:12:06,860
guidance to with the owners and 
and to other architects that 

1192
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:11,180
would find themselves working 
and and outfitting the spaces at

1193
01:12:11,250 --> 01:12:14,260
at the distillery. 
So it was, it was more along the

1194
01:12:14,270 --> 01:12:18,650
lines of the kind of UK model 
like, you know, surveyors of the

1195
01:12:18,660 --> 01:12:22,870
fabric, hmm, where they were 
responsible for, you know, the, 

1196
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,580
the holdings, the development 
holdings for that site. 

1197
01:12:26,590 --> 01:12:29,990
So that was, that was that was a
big important project for for 

1198
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:35,200
us. 
And as that site evolved beyond 

1199
01:12:35,210 --> 01:12:39,720
its sort of initial phases of 
developing some, some condo, 

1200
01:12:39,730 --> 01:12:43,800
early condo units designed by 
and on behalf of options for 

1201
01:12:43,810 --> 01:12:49,200
homes, I believe they turned 
their minds to the, the, the 

1202
01:12:49,210 --> 01:12:51,850
fabric of the, the old 
distillery portion. 

1203
01:12:52,530 --> 01:12:56,330
And that that transformation to 
see across that period from 2001

1204
01:12:56,340 --> 01:13:01,120
to 2005 was, was a pretty wild 
experience for all of us and so.

1205
01:13:01,210 --> 01:13:03,440
And and did you ramp up in terms
of team? 

1206
01:13:03,970 --> 01:13:08,940
They were still at that time. 
So at that time, the kind of the

1207
01:13:08,950 --> 01:13:12,800
core sort of principles today 
were were were there. 

1208
01:13:13,010 --> 01:13:18,760
It was it was Michael and Edwin 
with they had brought in Andrew 

1209
01:13:18,770 --> 01:13:25,610
Press at that time. 
Scott Weir was was there and 

1210
01:13:25,620 --> 01:13:28,510
then shortly after Graham 
Stewart. 

1211
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:33,170
So the five six of us were all 
there within six months of each 

1212
01:13:33,180 --> 01:13:35,070
other crazy. 
We kind of popped up into the 

1213
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:41,950
scene and all kind of really 
different individuals, all with 

1214
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,260
a kind of spirit of, well, let's
give that a shot. 

1215
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:49,640
Let's let's try this out. 
And there was never permission 

1216
01:13:50,050 --> 01:13:55,890
to seek it was it was it was a 
sort of feeling of you think you

1217
01:13:55,900 --> 01:13:58,180
can take it on, We'll go for it.
We'll figure out how to support 

1218
01:13:58,250 --> 01:14:05,980
each other doing that. 
So it was a very supportive and 

1219
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:09,720
you know, we were all 
experimenting and and having a 

1220
01:14:09,730 --> 01:14:12,130
lot of fun doing it seeing. 
It sounds like an incubator and 

1221
01:14:12,140 --> 01:14:13,960
accelerator. 
It was, I mean, some of some of 

1222
01:14:13,970 --> 01:14:15,880
us had more experience than I 
would argue. 

1223
01:14:15,890 --> 01:14:22,630
Obviously Michael and Edward and
Andrew Press had quite a bit of 

1224
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,440
experience designing other 
pieces of architecture before he

1225
01:14:26,450 --> 01:14:29,870
showed up at at era. 
Myself and Graham, we were, we 

1226
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:32,120
were new to this. 
We were, we were recent grads. 

1227
01:14:32,350 --> 01:14:35,520
I think Graham was like me. 
He was just wrapping up his his 

1228
01:14:35,530 --> 01:14:42,530
undergrad and Scott had come had
moved to Toronto from Ottawa 

1229
01:14:42,940 --> 01:14:49,420
shortly after moving to Toronto 
did he only started working at 

1230
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:53,340
at ERA. 
So it was sort of these early 

1231
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:59,020
days and it was exciting and we 
we all looked for opportunities 

1232
01:14:59,030 --> 01:15:04,050
in various different ways and we
all had these satellite 

1233
01:15:04,060 --> 01:15:06,630
communities we were all sort of 
connected to. 

1234
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,630
I had again, in my escapades 
outside of architecture, ran 

1235
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,950
into a few interesting people I 
had met. 

1236
01:15:16,340 --> 01:15:22,080
A friend of mine was doing these
sort of recordings of, you know,

1237
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:26,080
moments in the city and you you 
go to a pay phone. 

1238
01:15:26,090 --> 01:15:28,300
They used to be these pay phones
for those listeners who've never

1239
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:30,670
seen phones, you go to a pay 
phone, there's little sign. 

1240
01:15:31,100 --> 01:15:34,360
And it was it was the initiative
was called Murmur. 

1241
01:15:34,740 --> 01:15:37,270
If you if you ever remember it, 
and you pick up the phone, you 

1242
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,750
dial the number. 
And I'll give you a little story

1243
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,710
about someone's anecdotal 
experience in the city. 

1244
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:48,320
I'm Sean is now a writer for For
the Star and. 

1245
01:15:48,330 --> 01:15:50,820
I I never knew about this. 
Yeah, yeah, it was his. 

1246
01:15:50,830 --> 01:15:56,100
Him and Sean and and Gabe, OK, 
had started and initiated Murmur

1247
01:15:56,110 --> 01:16:00,320
and then they were close friends
with this other guy, Matt 

1248
01:16:00,330 --> 01:16:04,040
Blackett, who ended up starting 
and launching Spacing magazine. 

1249
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:09,220
So it was in and around that 
time and again I, because I came

1250
01:16:09,230 --> 01:16:14,180
out of a bit of a party scene, 
um, I admit I'd met Sean, I'd 

1251
01:16:14,190 --> 01:16:16,320
met Matt. 
So you came out of a person or 

1252
01:16:16,330 --> 01:16:20,200
you you created the party? 
Scene I I was, I was again. 

1253
01:16:20,210 --> 01:16:24,570
The five and eight model 
includes some creative 

1254
01:16:24,610 --> 01:16:30,130
fundraising. 
So in in those initiatives and 

1255
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,170
you know, again, there was 
compatibility there. 

1256
01:16:32,180 --> 01:16:35,050
They were writers, they were, 
they were creative thinkers, 

1257
01:16:35,060 --> 01:16:38,330
they were graphic folks. 
But we we all shared a love of 

1258
01:16:38,340 --> 01:16:40,700
the city and we were all really 
excited about what's going on in

1259
01:16:40,710 --> 01:16:45,830
the in the city and we figured 
we could all support each other.

1260
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,310
So, so out of that, we, we'd 
actually, I introduced the, the 

1261
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:55,900
guys to, to Michael and, and DRA
and we, you know, figured out we

1262
01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:59,440
should, we should, we should 
celebrate this city. 

1263
01:16:59,450 --> 01:17:02,760
We should speak about Toronto 
this, you know, this Toronto 

1264
01:17:02,770 --> 01:17:07,400
the, the good and quickly came 
up with the, the, the party 

1265
01:17:07,450 --> 01:17:10,320
Toronto the good, which we had 
run for many years. 

1266
01:17:10,770 --> 01:17:14,120
But it did initially, initially 
it was about doing some 

1267
01:17:14,130 --> 01:17:16,090
fundraising for Spacing 
magazine. 

1268
01:17:16,100 --> 01:17:20,090
Like, it's really hard to pull 
off a printed magazine. 

1269
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,030
Yeah, it's obviously even harder
today. 

1270
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:26,970
But but back then, you know, as 
a startup, it was an important, 

1271
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,060
you know, publication. 
And it was one that was talking 

1272
01:17:30,070 --> 01:17:32,800
about things we all believed in.
And we were as urbanists, We we 

1273
01:17:32,810 --> 01:17:35,250
were looking for a form. 
We were looking for a platform 

1274
01:17:35,260 --> 01:17:40,660
to promote and celebrate the 
city and you know, a whole host 

1275
01:17:40,670 --> 01:17:44,740
of writers and contributors were
were involved and that was that 

1276
01:17:44,750 --> 01:17:47,080
was really exciting. 
So that was the early days of of

1277
01:17:47,090 --> 01:17:49,610
Toronto the good as a as an 
initiative. 

1278
01:17:49,620 --> 01:17:55,030
And then, you know, like Scott 
was, you know, had a, had a 

1279
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,000
bunch of friends in the, the 
event industry as well and, you 

1280
01:17:58,010 --> 01:18:03,710
know, quickly found himself, you
know, restoring the 7th floor of

1281
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:08,010
College Park, the, the Curlew. 
And we all got real excited 

1282
01:18:08,020 --> 01:18:10,370
about that. 
And, and none of us had ever, 

1283
01:18:10,620 --> 01:18:14,970
you know, done, you know, work 
like that before, But we, we, we

1284
01:18:14,980 --> 01:18:17,390
were, we knew about it. 
We were interested in it. 

1285
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,900
We were exploring, experimenting
with it together. 

1286
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:22,750
And it was just complicated 
enough that nobody else wanted 

1287
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:25,160
to do it. 
So we, we figured, let's, let's 

1288
01:18:25,170 --> 01:18:30,410
take that on and, and we would, 
we would all, you know, share 

1289
01:18:30,420 --> 01:18:33,190
opportunities within these 
bigger opportunities that each 

1290
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:34,950
of us had. 
So it was a really again, 

1291
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,990
collaborative in the studio and 
then collaborative in the 

1292
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:41,430
individual relationships that 
had outside into these other 

1293
01:18:41,440 --> 01:18:44,350
firms. 
So again, I wouldn't, I wouldn't

1294
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:46,150
argue it was a business plan at 
that point. 

1295
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:48,260
We were just all having fun. 
We were just in a kind of 

1296
01:18:48,270 --> 01:18:49,340
discovery. 
Period. 

1297
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:51,310
Not uncommon. 
Yeah, everything that I've heard

1298
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,080
from people for the last like 2 
plus years. 

1299
01:18:53,090 --> 01:18:55,810
Yeah, yeah. 
It's amazing how that you just, 

1300
01:18:56,620 --> 01:18:59,670
you know, go follow your passion
and follow your interest. 

1301
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,880
And I hope that you know, 
there's alignment and, and need 

1302
01:19:03,890 --> 01:19:09,710
for it in, in, in the industry. 
So and then I would say 

1303
01:19:10,050 --> 01:19:15,180
eventually I found myself doing 
adaptive reuse and architecture 

1304
01:19:15,190 --> 01:19:18,220
right. 
And having to actually buckle. 

1305
01:19:18,230 --> 01:19:19,490
Down and then we did do some 
work. 

1306
01:19:19,500 --> 01:19:27,970
So, um, but there were again, so
many incredible happy accidents 

1307
01:19:27,980 --> 01:19:32,880
along along the way. 
Where you know, you know, 

1308
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:36,160
another architect would, you 
know, have run into trouble. 

1309
01:19:36,230 --> 01:19:39,760
We were able to sort of come in 
and and play support to them or 

1310
01:19:39,770 --> 01:19:42,800
somebody, you know, had a 
project that was just too 

1311
01:19:42,810 --> 01:19:45,220
complicated. 
I remember 1 of my earlier 

1312
01:19:46,490 --> 01:19:49,610
projects, one of the first 
projects I had actually kind of 

1313
01:19:49,620 --> 01:19:53,400
been part of as prime was the 
conversion of an old church out 

1314
01:19:53,410 --> 01:20:00,720
on the West End on Sunnyside. 
And it was as a, as a, as a 

1315
01:20:00,730 --> 01:20:02,950
conversion, as an adapter used 
probably one of the most 

1316
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:07,960
complicated to this day projects
to to sort of pull off, but. 

1317
01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:15,040
Was just a a like an absolute 
fun learning experience, you 

1318
01:20:15,050 --> 01:20:19,380
know, building a steel structure
within a stone box without 

1319
01:20:20,350 --> 01:20:22,380
having to make big openings on 
the side. 

1320
01:20:22,830 --> 01:20:26,670
That is that is it's like it's 
like those little, you know, 

1321
01:20:27,100 --> 01:20:30,850
glass jars with the little ships
inside with the IT was, it was 

1322
01:20:31,180 --> 01:20:37,130
it was something else. 
So, you know, many, many 

1323
01:20:37,140 --> 01:20:42,400
lessons, many, many happy 
accidents and wonderful 

1324
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:46,570
relationships that had evolved 
from that from that period. 

1325
01:20:46,620 --> 01:20:53,390
Yeah, I had, I actually left ERA
really in 2005, Yeah. 

1326
01:20:53,460 --> 01:20:57,900
And actually I went to, went 
over to the UK and I was there 

1327
01:20:59,410 --> 01:21:03,400
about a year and a half or so 
and had had a chance to work in 

1328
01:21:03,410 --> 01:21:05,130
a studio design studio over 
there. 

1329
01:21:05,860 --> 01:21:08,530
That was, that was a whole 
experience. 

1330
01:21:08,540 --> 01:21:11,340
It's, it's, it's funny, you 
think, you think you understand 

1331
01:21:11,350 --> 01:21:13,700
what you're doing in this, in 
this practice. 

1332
01:21:13,900 --> 01:21:17,820
Go to it in another country and 
like that's, that's pretty 

1333
01:21:17,830 --> 01:21:22,880
humbling, I would say. 
Nobody could see the facial 

1334
01:21:22,890 --> 01:21:26,860
expression that came with that. 
Yeah, it was very expressive, 

1335
01:21:26,870 --> 01:21:29,840
very expressive. 
But you know, look, we both, we 

1336
01:21:29,850 --> 01:21:32,980
all speak English, but but the, 
the framework and the approval, 

1337
01:21:33,030 --> 01:21:37,250
you know, process and the, the 
sensitivities and the culture 

1338
01:21:37,260 --> 01:21:41,300
there were unlike, you know, 
anything I had understood 

1339
01:21:41,310 --> 01:21:44,130
before. 
But I, I, you know, had a chance

1340
01:21:44,140 --> 01:21:48,010
to continue my learning and 
continue working on buildings. 

1341
01:21:48,020 --> 01:21:53,560
Yeah, mostly on if any at that 
time, 2005, don't know if you 

1342
01:21:53,570 --> 01:21:58,390
remember Jamie Oliver, the chef,
he did quite a critique about 

1343
01:21:59,650 --> 01:22:02,380
schools, the state of schools 
and food and nutrition in 

1344
01:22:02,390 --> 01:22:06,020
schools at the time. 
So off the heels of that, the 

1345
01:22:06,070 --> 01:22:09,290
county that I had lived in, the 
county of Kent was feeling quite

1346
01:22:09,300 --> 01:22:14,360
compelled to do some updating to
outdated infrastructure and and 

1347
01:22:14,370 --> 01:22:17,590
many buildings that they had 
built and thrown up in the in 

1348
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:20,500
the post war and in through to 
the 60s. 

1349
01:22:21,110 --> 01:22:26,180
Many of these buildings, they 
were, you know, not the best 

1350
01:22:26,190 --> 01:22:29,420
building envelope constructions 
and yeah, sort of still learning

1351
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:33,740
about how where dew points were 
and all that, all that fun 

1352
01:22:33,750 --> 01:22:36,540
stuff. 
So, you know, some of these 

1353
01:22:36,550 --> 01:22:39,220
buildings just had to be, you 
know, taken down. 

1354
01:22:39,230 --> 01:22:42,980
Some were candidates for 
retrofit, some were 

1355
01:22:43,710 --> 01:22:48,250
opportunities for development, 
and I found myself just by 

1356
01:22:48,260 --> 01:22:53,460
chance in the position of having
a little bit of experience with 

1357
01:22:53,470 --> 01:22:55,610
development coming out of the 
city of Toronto. 

1358
01:22:55,620 --> 01:22:59,770
So, you know, they, they hadn't 
in the kind of small town 

1359
01:22:59,780 --> 01:23:04,080
community of, of Highs and 
Canterbury and Folkston and 

1360
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,520
these, these smaller 
communities, just, they just 

1361
01:23:08,530 --> 01:23:11,450
didn't have any experience with 
what approvals would look like 

1362
01:23:11,540 --> 01:23:13,510
that changed what existing 
zoning. 

1363
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,020
And, and that's what Toronto is 
all about, right? 

1364
01:23:16,030 --> 01:23:19,610
This is a transactional city. 
We decided we weren't going to 

1365
01:23:19,620 --> 01:23:21,730
change our zoning laws. 
We were going to do it on a case

1366
01:23:21,740 --> 01:23:24,110
by case basis. 
So I low and behold, I, I hadn't

1367
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:26,030
realized I had all this 
experience. 

1368
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,410
I just didn't realize it was 
like the wax on wax off stuff, 

1369
01:23:29,420 --> 01:23:31,410
paint the fence, right? 
You just, Oh my gosh, you can 

1370
01:23:31,420 --> 01:23:34,530
apply it in in so many different
ways. 

1371
01:23:34,540 --> 01:23:37,160
So curious to know who doesn't 
get that reference. 

1372
01:23:37,170 --> 01:23:39,780
If you don't get that reference,
can you please send me an 

1373
01:23:39,790 --> 01:23:42,840
e-mail? 
I will happily, happily explain 

1374
01:23:42,850 --> 01:23:44,520
it to you. 
I don't wanna do it now, but if 

1375
01:23:44,530 --> 01:23:48,560
you don't, Jonathan, Jonathan, 
it issued for construction. 

1376
01:23:49,010 --> 01:23:50,560
I will explain it to you. 
Sorry. 

1377
01:23:50,570 --> 01:23:52,050
Go. 
Ahead I will give one clue. 

1378
01:23:52,060 --> 01:23:54,260
Daniel, Son. 
No. 

1379
01:23:54,310 --> 01:23:55,520
That gives it away. 
Maybe. 

1380
01:23:55,530 --> 01:23:57,080
Perhaps, but I'll leave it at 
that. 

1381
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:02,370
So. 
So I found myself negotiating 

1382
01:24:04,820 --> 01:24:08,730
opportunities with the county on
the county level through the 

1383
01:24:08,740 --> 01:24:10,290
school boards. 
Interesting. 

1384
01:24:11,260 --> 01:24:15,810
Through like a studio that was 
maybe 30 people or so was it was

1385
01:24:15,820 --> 01:24:19,690
a firm called CTM Architects hit
it at the time had been taken 

1386
01:24:19,700 --> 01:24:24,130
over by a gentleman by the name 
of Guy Holloway, who was an 

1387
01:24:24,140 --> 01:24:25,640
excellent designer, excellent 
architect. 

1388
01:24:27,370 --> 01:24:33,230
And I found myself in the unique
sort of position of, of knowing 

1389
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:38,670
a little bit about this stuff. 
And what we would find is some 

1390
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:42,290
of these schools, especially the
ones that that needed retrofit 

1391
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:45,680
and some fixing up, it was 
costly. 

1392
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:47,330
It was costly to do those 
repairs. 

1393
01:24:47,340 --> 01:24:49,250
It was right. 
It was, it was somewhat 

1394
01:24:49,260 --> 01:24:51,510
straightforward to replace the 
building. 

1395
01:24:52,180 --> 01:24:56,000
But for those buildings that had
either some life left in them or

1396
01:24:56,010 --> 01:25:01,790
they weren't fully or they had 
historic value, I knew, I knew 

1397
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,790
what to do with them. 
And, and I had, I had a sense, 

1398
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:09,070
and I was able to negotiate 
portions of sites that they 

1399
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,980
could sell off and develop to 
private sector developers to pay

1400
01:25:12,990 --> 01:25:16,290
for the repairs and the 
investments. 

1401
01:25:16,300 --> 01:25:20,760
Yeah, to, you know, new 
facilities for, for these, for 

1402
01:25:20,770 --> 01:25:22,560
these schools and, and, and the 
community. 

1403
01:25:22,570 --> 01:25:25,580
So incredible. 
I found myself in the period of 

1404
01:25:25,590 --> 01:25:30,250
like 6 months just generating. 
Opportunities. 

1405
01:25:30,260 --> 01:25:35,590
Just tons of opportunities and 
it was it was fantastic. 

1406
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:38,650
I mean like, OK, bye. 
And so I was there for maybe a 

1407
01:25:38,660 --> 01:25:43,290
year and a year or so. 
And I think I think it came 

1408
01:25:43,300 --> 01:25:47,780
quite, quite, quite sudden. 
And whether I had intended to 

1409
01:25:47,790 --> 01:25:51,080
stay there as long as I did or 
or longer, it was it was time 

1410
01:25:51,090 --> 01:25:55,060
for for us to move back and. 
Ask who's us? 

1411
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,650
My wife and I. 
At the time, were you? 

1412
01:25:57,660 --> 01:25:59,850
Married. 
Yes, I had. 

1413
01:25:59,860 --> 01:26:01,070
Yeah, we were married at the 
time. 

1414
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:05,230
I should know that. 
We were married in 2005. 

1415
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:08,380
So you just had been married? 
And married actually was. 

1416
01:26:08,420 --> 01:26:10,810
There's a whole story to that 
they won't go into, but it was 

1417
01:26:10,860 --> 01:26:14,930
it was I was there as her 
dependent as she was doing her 

1418
01:26:14,940 --> 01:26:18,300
PhD in film, which is why I have
all these film references. 

1419
01:26:18,310 --> 01:26:20,970
And for those who who do I do 
work with? 

1420
01:26:20,980 --> 01:26:22,490
I probably. 
I'm all for. 

1421
01:26:22,500 --> 01:26:24,480
It distract people way more than
I probably. 

1422
01:26:24,490 --> 01:26:27,430
Should, but that's my that's my 
whole rooting it's. 

1423
01:26:27,440 --> 01:26:30,630
Part of our culture connects 
with film and television, as it 

1424
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:36,530
turns out. 
But yeah, so then I, I, we, we 

1425
01:26:36,540 --> 01:26:41,310
ended up coming back to Toronto 
and, you know, again, really 

1426
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:45,220
valuing the experience in in the
UK and having a chance to, you 

1427
01:26:45,230 --> 01:26:48,180
know, just do new design work 
and what what that looked like 

1428
01:26:48,190 --> 01:26:51,790
and be sort of curating what the
aims and the goals of the 

1429
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,620
project were. 
And then, you know, trying to 

1430
01:26:54,630 --> 01:26:56,440
unlock the financing for those 
projects. 

1431
01:26:56,450 --> 01:27:00,950
And like, you know, here's a pro
forma, OK, let's try that out. 

1432
01:27:01,700 --> 01:27:05,840
So it's it was it was a real eye
opener to me and just a kind of 

1433
01:27:06,670 --> 01:27:09,340
ohgi, this is, this is this 
comes natural. 

1434
01:27:09,390 --> 01:27:12,540
And I was quite, quite 
interested in in the, you know, 

1435
01:27:12,550 --> 01:27:14,260
working at that level, working 
at that scale. 

1436
01:27:14,330 --> 01:27:16,700
Yeah. 
And so coming back to Toronto, 

1437
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:21,240
this sort of choice to go back 
to era or do I try? 

1438
01:27:21,570 --> 01:27:23,160
I've got all these 
relationships, I've got all 

1439
01:27:23,170 --> 01:27:26,410
these connections into these 
these other studios in these 

1440
01:27:26,420 --> 01:27:31,940
other offices. 
And I did ponder and consider do

1441
01:27:31,950 --> 01:27:33,130
I? 
Do I hook up with one of these 

1442
01:27:33,140 --> 01:27:35,810
other firms these these other 
outfits? 

1443
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:40,800
Do I start my own sort of 
practice and I just kept feeling

1444
01:27:40,810 --> 01:27:44,600
the draw back to ERA and and I 
will say it was the people, 

1445
01:27:44,610 --> 01:27:48,550
definitely the people right was 
it was definitely the the 

1446
01:27:49,020 --> 01:27:53,250
undefined, you know, model that 
was that was the RA. 

1447
01:27:53,260 --> 01:27:59,340
It was, you know, it still felt 
like a place that I could 

1448
01:27:59,410 --> 01:28:02,720
continue to experiment, continue
to explore, right. 

1449
01:28:02,790 --> 01:28:05,220
You know, the the culture of 
things that I was that I was 

1450
01:28:05,230 --> 01:28:07,820
interested in and contribute to 
to a community. 

1451
01:28:07,830 --> 01:28:11,820
So that those those kind of came
together in in a decision to 

1452
01:28:11,900 --> 01:28:15,270
sort of return to ERA. 
But what I had, you know, 

1453
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,730
discovered and being part of a 
firm that was larger than the 8 

1454
01:28:18,740 --> 01:28:22,490
to 12 people was guys, we could 
we can extend our reach if we 

1455
01:28:22,500 --> 01:28:25,700
just kind of ramp up in size. 
This thirty person scales. 

1456
01:28:25,870 --> 01:28:30,100
It's kind of fascinating what 
you what you can draw on and and

1457
01:28:30,110 --> 01:28:33,550
and reach. 
So I came back with the 

1458
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:37,220
understanding in 2006 or 7 that 
we would that we would grow. 

1459
01:28:37,440 --> 01:28:43,300
We would explore similar scale 
projects and it wasn't something

1460
01:28:43,310 --> 01:28:46,230
I I would have been intimidated 
before, but having these other 

1461
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,060
experiences first hand, I felt 
like, OK, we could, we could 

1462
01:28:49,070 --> 01:28:50,960
take that on. 
And what was your role when you 

1463
01:28:50,970 --> 01:28:53,960
came back like I assume before 
you left, what was your, what 

1464
01:28:53,970 --> 01:28:56,580
was your position when you 
before you like just? 

1465
01:28:56,650 --> 01:29:01,280
Junior Arthurson Just we, you 
know, we didn't have titles or 

1466
01:29:01,290 --> 01:29:03,700
really at the office for the 
longest time. 

1467
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:12,930
And you know, in in part it was 
just maybe a our self-image in 

1468
01:29:12,940 --> 01:29:15,360
the industry as as heritage 
consultant, right, as 

1469
01:29:15,370 --> 01:29:18,900
architects. 
Did we count, did we count as 

1470
01:29:18,910 --> 01:29:21,320
architects? 
Or you know, did we could we 

1471
01:29:21,330 --> 01:29:23,480
really say we were part of the 
planning process? 

1472
01:29:23,490 --> 01:29:25,730
Could we really? 
So we were kind of straddling a 

1473
01:29:25,740 --> 01:29:28,170
bunch of different worlds right 
at the time, right. 

1474
01:29:28,550 --> 01:29:33,620
So I think we we left, we felt 
comfortable ambiguous about 

1475
01:29:33,630 --> 01:29:34,580
title. 
Fair enough. 

1476
01:29:34,590 --> 01:29:37,600
And that worked well for for us 
for some time. 

1477
01:29:38,130 --> 01:29:40,700
So I just came back. 
No, I don't think in any 

1478
01:29:40,710 --> 01:29:42,480
position. 
No, that's not true. 

1479
01:29:42,490 --> 01:29:46,600
Actually, I did come back and 
get the title of associate at 

1480
01:29:46,610 --> 01:29:51,530
the time, yes. 
And building a, a kind of body 

1481
01:29:51,540 --> 01:29:55,890
of work around, you know, the, 
the growing on, on the practice.

1482
01:29:55,900 --> 01:29:59,330
What had changed since I had 
left was some policy framework 

1483
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:03,930
in the, in the province. 
So for those of you who don't 

1484
01:30:03,940 --> 01:30:07,720
know, in 2005 we have the places
to grow and the provincial 

1485
01:30:07,730 --> 01:30:09,610
policy statement that were, that
were updated. 

1486
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:12,910
And this was really about 
targeting a vision for Ontario 

1487
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:17,340
that we would grow where we have
areas of transit and so transit 

1488
01:30:17,350 --> 01:30:19,830
oriented communities. 
And that was really on a high 

1489
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:26,570
level important driver to and a 
focus to, to, to our growth. 

1490
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,230
It also said, here's a line in 
the places to grow. 

1491
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:31,990
You can't go outside of it, 
right? 

1492
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:37,230
And so it, it sort of gave some 
it, it provided some pressure 

1493
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:40,220
and some momentum about anybody 
inside the line, any sites 

1494
01:30:40,230 --> 01:30:45,190
inside the line being targeted 
for an incentivized for, for, 

1495
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:48,250
for growth. 
At the, at the same time that 

1496
01:30:48,260 --> 01:30:52,060
that rolled out, we had an 
update to the Ontario Heritage 

1497
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:56,170
Act, which gave it some, you 
know, heritage in the, in the 

1498
01:30:56,180 --> 01:30:58,450
city of Toronto and in the 
province of Ontario, some real 

1499
01:30:58,460 --> 01:31:03,740
teeth in terms of legislation. 
And I'll be honest, it's taken 

1500
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:08,880
us, you know, since then, since 
2005 to understand how strong 

1501
01:31:09,190 --> 01:31:12,920
that policy document is and what
it can do and how it can be 

1502
01:31:12,930 --> 01:31:16,180
leveraged. 
So those two pieces of 

1503
01:31:16,190 --> 01:31:20,660
legislation were pretty, I would
say important to the call to 

1504
01:31:20,670 --> 01:31:26,580
action that that ERA had been in
a position to, to to answer. 

1505
01:31:27,250 --> 01:31:31,320
So what we saw was a, was a, was
a lot more listings, the 

1506
01:31:31,330 --> 01:31:35,380
designations and a lot more 
participation through various 

1507
01:31:35,390 --> 01:31:42,440
departments at City Hall and the
kind of, you know, maturing of 

1508
01:31:42,490 --> 01:31:46,680
conservation as a practice in, 
in, in the city of Toronto 

1509
01:31:46,690 --> 01:31:48,620
anyways. 
And I try and remind people 

1510
01:31:48,630 --> 01:31:52,320
it's, it's not that old of a 
practice in, in Canada anyways, 

1511
01:31:52,330 --> 01:31:57,880
like our, our heritage movement 
and conservation movement. 

1512
01:31:57,890 --> 01:32:02,360
It really we have the the 
modernists to thank for for it 

1513
01:32:02,690 --> 01:32:07,020
out of the 60s when when Meeses 
Tower first knocked over a John 

1514
01:32:07,030 --> 01:32:11,290
Lyle bank building at the corner
there of Bay and King. 

1515
01:32:12,750 --> 01:32:17,790
You know, the Toronto had never 
seen activism like that before. 

1516
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:21,560
And you know, in response to 
projects like that and other 

1517
01:32:21,570 --> 01:32:25,000
modernist buildings, the sort of
conservation heritage movement 

1518
01:32:25,070 --> 01:32:28,130
protection had had emerged, 
right. 

1519
01:32:28,170 --> 01:32:34,540
So moving beyond just a sort of 
protection protectionism, these,

1520
01:32:35,710 --> 01:32:38,960
you know, the, the Anterior 
Heritage Act out of 2005 became 

1521
01:32:39,300 --> 01:32:42,260
a tool that we were all using to
explore what does this mean to 

1522
01:32:42,270 --> 01:32:45,880
manage buildings that have 
protection, right? 

1523
01:32:45,930 --> 01:32:51,180
And how might that evolve and, 
and be relevant in the city as 

1524
01:32:51,190 --> 01:32:57,360
we continue to, you know, take 
on new, new, new immigrants into

1525
01:32:57,370 --> 01:33:00,680
the city as our city grows? 
I mean from that period, if you 

1526
01:33:00,690 --> 01:33:05,150
remember this, like I remember 
living on the, the, the the West

1527
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:10,450
End in our little Parkdale off 
there on the 3rd floor at 77 

1528
01:33:10,460 --> 01:33:15,280
Florence, looking out over the 
city skyline, hanging out with a

1529
01:33:15,290 --> 01:33:20,350
few folks on on rooftops. 
Brendan Canning Leslie was there

1530
01:33:21,050 --> 01:33:25,400
just before we had left to go to
UK and. 

1531
01:33:25,490 --> 01:33:27,000
Just reference Brendan Kenny, 
yeah. 

1532
01:33:27,070 --> 01:33:29,830
Yeah, and there was a whole. 
So those of you that are 

1533
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:31,880
unfamiliar with who Brandon 
Canning is, he's one of the 

1534
01:33:31,890 --> 01:33:33,990
founders of Broken Social Scene,
is that you're. 

1535
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:35,810
Referring to Yeah, that's right.
And actually. 

1536
01:33:36,570 --> 01:33:38,820
Broken Social scenes, I think 
one of the greatest bands in 

1537
01:33:38,830 --> 01:33:42,160
Canada. 
It wasn't just, you know, them, 

1538
01:33:42,170 --> 01:33:44,710
it was there was a whole scene 
he just of, of folks. 

1539
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,340
There I started like digress too
much, but Brandon just founded, 

1540
01:33:48,350 --> 01:33:50,660
cofounded a a new band with my 
cousin. 

1541
01:33:50,750 --> 01:33:53,080
I did not know that. 
Cynthia Toro. 

1542
01:33:53,250 --> 01:33:55,370
OK. 
And they just started a band 

1543
01:33:55,380 --> 01:33:59,180
called Toro and they just had a 
like a whole launch party and 

1544
01:33:59,190 --> 01:34:02,020
everything. 
So Brandon's now playing in a 

1545
01:34:02,030 --> 01:34:04,660
band alongside my cousin. 
Yeah. 

1546
01:34:04,730 --> 01:34:07,300
It's such a smells well world. 
It's wild. 

1547
01:34:07,350 --> 01:34:11,640
I sorry, I have to say. 
I have to say this so Harrison 

1548
01:34:11,650 --> 01:34:16,680
Masonic Temple, no, not Masonic 
temple at what's sorry, I know 

1549
01:34:16,690 --> 01:34:17,890
that I'm I totally. 
Agree. 

1550
01:34:17,900 --> 01:34:18,960
Please, please, please. 
I want you. 

1551
01:34:18,970 --> 01:34:20,820
To remember, I have to. 
I have to remember that. 

1552
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:26,250
What is the name of the venue in
Leslieville? 

1553
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:31,520
In less of the Opera House. 
No, no, no. 

1554
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:33,940
Oh, my God. 
Yeah, I know. 

1555
01:34:33,950 --> 01:34:34,850
Queen on Queen. 
Yeah. 

1556
01:34:34,860 --> 01:34:36,890
If you're listening to this, 
you're saying it out loud right 

1557
01:34:36,900 --> 01:34:38,610
now. 
And I'm sorry that I can't hear 

1558
01:34:38,620 --> 01:34:41,040
you. 
But Phil and I are in a room and

1559
01:34:41,050 --> 01:34:44,490
we can't hear you because you're
listening to this in the future.

1560
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:47,170
History. 
History, Yes, Thank you. 

1561
01:34:47,180 --> 01:34:48,260
Yes. 
OHS brutal. 

1562
01:34:48,270 --> 01:34:50,380
Yeah. 
OK, so as a history last year 

1563
01:34:51,220 --> 01:34:54,590
and to see broken social scene 
is so excited. 

1564
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:59,830
I haven't seen him in years and 
therefore the opener and this 

1565
01:34:59,900 --> 01:35:02,420
woman comes on stage and I know 
that the again, I'm sorry. 

1566
01:35:02,430 --> 01:35:04,250
I apologize for anyone listening
to this right now. 

1567
01:35:04,260 --> 01:35:06,450
And this is not really an 
architecture story, but I'm 

1568
01:35:06,460 --> 01:35:12,000
sorry, just right. 
My wife and I are watching this 

1569
01:35:12,690 --> 01:35:16,670
in the woman on stage playing, 
playing the piano. 

1570
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:19,580
Brandon's up there, and everyone
else is up there. 

1571
01:35:19,590 --> 01:35:21,290
And I'm like, oh, she sounds 
really good. 

1572
01:35:21,300 --> 01:35:23,630
And then she's like, yeah. 
So for those of you that don't 

1573
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:26,430
know, our name is Toro. 
And I was like, Toro. 

1574
01:35:26,740 --> 01:35:29,290
And she's like, yeah. 
And today's my mom's birthday. 

1575
01:35:29,300 --> 01:35:31,610
You know, Michelle, Michelle's 
up there. 

1576
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:33,530
And she points. 
And I'm like, I look at my wife.

1577
01:35:33,540 --> 01:35:37,400
I'm like, hold on a second. 
Is that my cousin Cynthia? 

1578
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:40,830
Is she referencing Michelle? 
Like Michelle, like my. 

1579
01:35:40,980 --> 01:35:43,620
And I look and like Michelle, 
like, waving back at her. 

1580
01:35:43,630 --> 01:35:48,030
And I'm like, oh, my God. 
And I get on my phone and I text

1581
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,990
with Michelle and Michelle's 
like, you're here. 

1582
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:53,290
I'm like, look down. 
Like, guys, this is happening 

1583
01:35:53,300 --> 01:35:55,010
like on stage. 
I'm like, look down. 

1584
01:35:55,070 --> 01:35:56,990
She looks down like happy 
birthday. 

1585
01:35:57,060 --> 01:36:00,150
Cynthia comes over and then. 
And anyhow, so yeah, she's in a 

1586
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,130
band with Brandon Canning his 
like. 

1587
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:04,730
I need to watch their career. 
I mean, I will. 

1588
01:36:04,740 --> 01:36:06,860
I will say Toronto at that time 
like. 

1589
01:36:06,870 --> 01:36:09,710
Early 2. 
Thousands was producing such 

1590
01:36:09,780 --> 01:36:13,510
incredible music. 
Yeah, that that music scene. 

1591
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:18,540
I was, I was only peripherally, 
you know, an observer to it. 

1592
01:36:18,550 --> 01:36:24,230
Like across the hall from us on 
77 Florence on the 3rd floor was

1593
01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:25,810
Steven and Andrea. 
Steven. 

1594
01:36:26,020 --> 01:36:31,630
I was the the individual who had
done all the filming for Brendan

1595
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:33,730
the Broken Social scenes ohe 
documentary. 

1596
01:36:33,740 --> 01:36:34,820
Yeah, the movie that just came 
out on. 

1597
01:36:34,830 --> 01:36:37,210
Crave yeah. 
So he they had been following 

1598
01:36:37,220 --> 01:36:40,320
he's, he's got like. 20 years of
I know I watched him. 

1599
01:36:40,330 --> 01:36:42,260
I watched the dog. 
Absolutely incredible. 

1600
01:36:42,270 --> 01:36:49,230
What an amazing commitment. 
So it was it was a just a great 

1601
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,590
scene to be to be part of. 
And actually my my wife at the 

1602
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:57,130
time had worked at the Rivoli. 
And so that's where they were 

1603
01:36:57,140 --> 01:37:00,830
all working and hanging out and 
then let you know Leslie would 

1604
01:37:00,900 --> 01:37:03,630
was was also working, you know, 
tables at the time there with 

1605
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:05,380
Julie. 
And like it was, it was like 

1606
01:37:05,390 --> 01:37:07,610
that was the whole. 
Scene so just again, so just 

1607
01:37:07,620 --> 01:37:09,870
provide some frames of reference
here. 

1608
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,210
So broken social scenes one 
band, but then as an offshoot of

1609
01:37:13,220 --> 01:37:15,630
broken Social scene one of the 
initial founders broken social 

1610
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:18,750
scene also Feist and Feist has 
gone on to have her own career. 

1611
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:23,100
She was back for this history. 
Was she there? 

1612
01:37:23,150 --> 01:37:26,050
Yeah, like everyone, everyone 
was part of the original band, 

1613
01:37:26,060 --> 01:37:27,500
essentially came back and played
in this. 

1614
01:37:27,550 --> 01:37:29,420
At one point, there's like 17 
people on stage. 

1615
01:37:29,530 --> 01:37:33,680
This is why this podcast is 
unscripted right now. 

1616
01:37:33,730 --> 01:37:36,920
This is it because you don't 
know where it's going to go. 

1617
01:37:36,930 --> 01:37:40,610
And my God is a beautiful. 
So I remember being on the the 

1618
01:37:40,620 --> 01:37:42,820
rooftop looking at Toronto 
skyline. 

1619
01:37:43,170 --> 01:37:44,800
Brendan was there. 
Leslie was. 

1620
01:37:44,810 --> 01:37:47,960
There, Yeah. 
And it was actually after that. 

1621
01:37:48,010 --> 01:37:50,460
So we had gone off to the UK, 
Leslie had gone off to Paris. 

1622
01:37:50,470 --> 01:37:53,730
She had written her incredible 
breakthrough album. 

1623
01:37:53,740 --> 01:37:57,130
Yeah. 
And But at the time, Toronto was

1624
01:37:57,140 --> 01:38:00,530
really different to look at the 
skyline than what it would be 

1625
01:38:00,540 --> 01:38:02,330
today. 
Like, you went up to that same 

1626
01:38:02,340 --> 01:38:04,730
spot at the rooftop of 77 
Florence. 

1627
01:38:04,740 --> 01:38:07,070
Yeah. 
Actually, I would love to see a 

1628
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:10,730
photograph of that, if any of 
them, any listener has that 

1629
01:38:10,740 --> 01:38:12,900
photograph. 
If you live at 77 Florence and 

1630
01:38:12,910 --> 01:38:13,970
you get. 
Up to the roof, Yeah. 

1631
01:38:13,980 --> 01:38:16,370
Go to the rooftop. 
Take a picture, send it to me. 

1632
01:38:16,380 --> 01:38:19,350
I would love to see that. 
You heard that? 

1633
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:23,890
OK, if you're listening and you 
have access, go alright. 

1634
01:38:23,950 --> 01:38:26,560
Where we've come from and where 
we are, where we're going, more 

1635
01:38:26,570 --> 01:38:30,660
importantly in this in this city
is a pretty, pretty exciting 

1636
01:38:30,670 --> 01:38:34,310
motivator. 
Alright, so so. 

1637
01:38:34,440 --> 01:38:38,080
So it's let's 2008, I'm back in 
Toronto. 

1638
01:38:38,090 --> 01:38:40,770
You're growing the practice. 
We're growing the practice. 

1639
01:38:41,780 --> 01:38:44,440
There's a call to action in the 
policy framework. 

1640
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:49,390
Immigration is increasing in 
Toronto. 

1641
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:53,010
The the expectation of what the 
city can be. 

1642
01:38:53,320 --> 01:39:00,670
I think David Miller is is or 
soon to be our our mayor. 

1643
01:39:02,100 --> 01:39:07,700
So exciting projects around 
research projects that you know,

1644
01:39:07,890 --> 01:39:12,840
everybody is working on across, 
across the city, you know, was a

1645
01:39:12,850 --> 01:39:14,660
was a real special, special 
moment. 

1646
01:39:14,670 --> 01:39:24,810
So I would say the period 
between 2910 up till let's say 

1647
01:39:24,820 --> 01:39:26,780
pre COVID. 
Let's make that an era, yeah, 

1648
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:29,030
Because. 
Because it's post recession and 

1649
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:30,810
it's pre. 
Like everybody going doors, 

1650
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:32,750
yeah. 
And shut down, yeah, but also 

1651
01:39:32,760 --> 01:39:33,910
boom. 
It's a boom. 

1652
01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:35,820
It was a, it was a total, it was
a total boom. 

1653
01:39:35,830 --> 01:39:41,060
And it, over that period in the 
practice, I found the, just the 

1654
01:39:41,070 --> 01:39:44,700
number of projects increasing 
the, the scale of the projects, 

1655
01:39:44,710 --> 01:39:52,880
increasing the, the reach that, 
um, the studio, you know, had 

1656
01:39:52,890 --> 01:39:58,040
access to. 
I found that our roles in the 

1657
01:39:58,050 --> 01:40:00,140
projects were starting to 
evolve. 

1658
01:40:00,350 --> 01:40:03,430
What, you know, had been just, 
you know, will comment on bricks

1659
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:06,840
and mortar. 
We slowly started commenting on 

1660
01:40:06,850 --> 01:40:10,960
adaptability and, and you know 
what, what programs make sense 

1661
01:40:10,970 --> 01:40:13,970
here? 
And you know, giving some 

1662
01:40:13,980 --> 01:40:17,720
direction on some built form 
adjacent to this little old 

1663
01:40:17,730 --> 01:40:20,580
heritage building that you're 
keeping in place and wait, can 

1664
01:40:20,590 --> 01:40:23,560
we pick up that building and 
move it like we started to push 

1665
01:40:23,570 --> 01:40:27,790
the boundary on? 
What could be done with the 

1666
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:29,840
value? 
We, we, we all kind of 

1667
01:40:29,850 --> 01:40:33,410
understood and, and, and shared 
without losing integrity, 

1668
01:40:33,420 --> 01:40:38,690
without taking away from, from 
that value. 

1669
01:40:38,700 --> 01:40:45,110
So it was, it was an incredible 
period of, of maturity and 

1670
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:48,980
building up of, of the practice 
and some pretty wonderful, 

1671
01:40:48,990 --> 01:40:51,450
wonderful projects over over 
that period. 

1672
01:40:51,780 --> 01:40:55,330
And at the same time, we were, 
you know, professionally, you 

1673
01:40:55,340 --> 01:40:59,010
know, being involved in and, and
participating in projects. 

1674
01:40:59,500 --> 01:41:03,870
We were doubling down on our 
research and development, which 

1675
01:41:04,180 --> 01:41:08,440
as a maybe as a, as a business 
model, you know, isn't. 

1676
01:41:08,450 --> 01:41:10,220
It like they're smiling. 
Is, you know, isn't as. 

1677
01:41:10,230 --> 01:41:13,480
Lucrative, I know. 
But we found ourselves just 

1678
01:41:13,490 --> 01:41:16,620
totally interested in investing 
back in our, in our practice in 

1679
01:41:16,630 --> 01:41:18,250
the in, in. 
The because the return 

1680
01:41:18,260 --> 01:41:21,390
ultimately is gonna come. 
It eventually, I mean hopefully 

1681
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:23,570
you know, when when we did 
Toronto the good we were just 

1682
01:41:23,580 --> 01:41:25,460
trying to throw a party and help
our friends out. 

1683
01:41:26,290 --> 01:41:31,010
We didn't realize the long term 
effect of that was, you know, 

1684
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:35,490
expanding your, your network of 
audience and exposure and 

1685
01:41:35,500 --> 01:41:38,850
connecting to other communities 
that were adjacent to architects

1686
01:41:38,860 --> 01:41:41,070
and urbanists and what have you.
We didn't, we didn't realize, we

1687
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:43,170
weren't putting that it wasn't a
master plan in any way. 

1688
01:41:43,180 --> 01:41:46,480
It was just a fun thing to chase
down. 

1689
01:41:46,490 --> 01:41:50,430
So, so you know, over that 
period we were exploring, I 

1690
01:41:50,440 --> 01:41:54,520
mean, Graham had and was 
pursuing these tower renewal 

1691
01:41:54,530 --> 01:42:00,280
projects and other kind of urban
growth and renewal assignments. 

1692
01:42:00,590 --> 01:42:06,300
Scott was starting to evolve his
his hand in in residential 

1693
01:42:06,310 --> 01:42:11,220
architecture and really refining
his kind of, you know, handle 

1694
01:42:11,290 --> 01:42:19,700
on, on, on luxury and, you know,
stable residential communities 

1695
01:42:19,710 --> 01:42:23,740
up in, you know, Rosedale and, 
you know, eventually cottage 

1696
01:42:23,750 --> 01:42:28,440
country and point of barrel. 
Andrew was taking on incredibly 

1697
01:42:28,690 --> 01:42:34,460
complex conservation feets, I'll
call them. 

1698
01:42:35,110 --> 01:42:40,530
And yeah, everyone was just, you
know, driving towards what else 

1699
01:42:40,540 --> 01:42:45,330
is this practice about? 
I had been getting distracted by

1700
01:42:47,160 --> 01:42:51,350
a, a couple of other 
initiatives, one where we would,

1701
01:42:51,630 --> 01:42:53,080
it was called Culture of 
Outports. 

1702
01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:58,210
And we were, we were taking 
students from any of the 

1703
01:42:58,220 --> 01:43:00,450
universities. 
We, we work with Dalhousie, We, 

1704
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:04,450
we work with Ryerson now TM U at
the time. 

1705
01:43:04,830 --> 01:43:07,670
And we would take students for 
two weeks into an outdoor 

1706
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:10,350
community. 
They would live with these 

1707
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:13,180
people, eat with these people, 
design and then build all within

1708
01:43:13,190 --> 01:43:18,010
a two week span, some kind of 
community need or gap. 

1709
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,590
And it was about an exchange. 
It was about, you know, how 

1710
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:26,030
might you rethink and you know, 
the economy, the local cultural 

1711
01:43:26,040 --> 01:43:28,350
economy within that within that 
community. 

1712
01:43:28,360 --> 01:43:31,410
And that was something that was 
so inspiring to to all of us. 

1713
01:43:31,420 --> 01:43:32,770
We did a bunch of these 
community builds. 

1714
01:43:32,780 --> 01:43:36,070
We then took that and started 
trying to understand it across 

1715
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:39,970
the country in in various small 
communities across the country, 

1716
01:43:39,980 --> 01:43:44,590
which eventually became culture 
of small and these all led to 

1717
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:46,170
like. 
Culture of small was what? 

1718
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:51,260
Culture of small was trying to 
understand, you know, so much of

1719
01:43:51,270 --> 01:43:54,550
our of our country was was 
settled, you know by natural 

1720
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:56,540
resources. 
So what happens after the 

1721
01:43:56,860 --> 01:44:00,090
natural resource based economy 
out is no more Yeah. 

1722
01:44:00,140 --> 01:44:01,510
What do you do with these 
communities? 

1723
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:05,070
Some of them you, you close shop
you you, you shut them down some

1724
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,770
of them can be adapted and read 
so adapting and reusing on a 

1725
01:44:07,780 --> 01:44:11,160
community scale and then and 
then working with businesses we 

1726
01:44:11,170 --> 01:44:14,710
found ourselves working with 
with small entrepreneurs and and

1727
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:18,250
and small businesses. 
How might you reposition your, 

1728
01:44:18,260 --> 01:44:20,930
your business strategies, right?
So you'd, you'd be designing 

1729
01:44:21,020 --> 01:44:23,730
buildings for them, but you'd 
realize, you know what, you, you

1730
01:44:23,740 --> 01:44:25,280
don't need to put money into 
this building. 

1731
01:44:25,290 --> 01:44:28,560
Let's just use it as is. 
Let's make the investment in, 

1732
01:44:28,890 --> 01:44:31,810
you know, tweaking the business 
model and we'll connect you 

1733
01:44:31,820 --> 01:44:34,580
with, with these guys over here.
We'll change the business model 

1734
01:44:34,590 --> 01:44:40,220
as a kind of Airbnb and you sort
of explore what opportunities 

1735
01:44:40,370 --> 01:44:45,380
the town might offer to attract 
new visitors and residents or 

1736
01:44:45,390 --> 01:44:47,830
what have you. 
So, yeah, it was a it was a fun,

1737
01:44:48,450 --> 01:44:52,420
fun period and kind of dialogue 
and, and still running today 

1738
01:44:52,430 --> 01:44:57,300
through much of our hospitality,
food and beverage work that we 

1739
01:44:57,310 --> 01:45:01,270
do across, you know, small 
communities outside of this the 

1740
01:45:01,280 --> 01:45:03,520
city. 
And, you know, there's some 

1741
01:45:03,530 --> 01:45:05,920
great wonderful things happening
out in Prince Edward County 

1742
01:45:05,930 --> 01:45:08,180
still with obviously the Drake 
is out there. 

1743
01:45:08,190 --> 01:45:12,120
But yeah, you know, a whole slew
of of new entrepreneurs have 

1744
01:45:12,170 --> 01:45:15,640
have sort of popped up and we've
we've had the privilege of 

1745
01:45:15,650 --> 01:45:18,720
working with so many of them. 
And you know, north of the city 

1746
01:45:18,730 --> 01:45:24,260
and Kaladin Farm, Stead land, 
there's so many great new 

1747
01:45:24,270 --> 01:45:25,820
businesses popping up there as 
well. 

1748
01:45:25,830 --> 01:45:29,260
I have a shadow, it's a good lot
brewery, a shadow to Cambium 

1749
01:45:29,270 --> 01:45:36,210
Farms, some really great venues,
place based businesses that are 

1750
01:45:36,220 --> 01:45:41,020
responding to the values of the 
community they live in and 

1751
01:45:41,210 --> 01:45:43,600
homegrown stuff. 
So that's that that that was 

1752
01:45:43,610 --> 01:45:46,320
very special and and wonderful 
for us. 

1753
01:45:46,330 --> 01:45:50,500
So again, so, so much of the 
work we were doing at ER in that

1754
01:45:50,510 --> 01:45:54,610
period was, you know, growing 
the business and at the same 

1755
01:45:54,620 --> 01:45:58,200
time reinvesting in research and
and development. 

1756
01:45:58,210 --> 01:46:02,270
And I remember, I remember one 
of the pictures at the time when

1757
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:05,370
we were, when we were growing 
staff and, and I, I would, I 

1758
01:46:05,380 --> 01:46:08,810
was, I was quite involved with 
hiring staff at the time. 

1759
01:46:09,220 --> 01:46:12,510
And I remember looking for 
people who were doing stuff 

1760
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:14,810
outside of architecture. 
So whatever you were doing 

1761
01:46:14,820 --> 01:46:18,310
outside of the office, you know,
after hours, that was really 

1762
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:20,450
interesting to us. 
We want to understand how that 

1763
01:46:20,460 --> 01:46:23,400
might fold into the business and
how we might leverage that. 

1764
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:25,020
How is this going to motivate 
you? 

1765
01:46:25,030 --> 01:46:29,260
What platform does this provide 
to you that you know you can? 

1766
01:46:29,490 --> 01:46:32,930
Add value to what you can do 
here exactly that go beyond what

1767
01:46:32,940 --> 01:46:36,010
we currently can do. 
Everybody wins in that in that 

1768
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:38,810
in that scenario. 
I love it so. 

1769
01:46:38,860 --> 01:46:41,640
So tell me, how did you get to 
the point where you understood 

1770
01:46:42,310 --> 01:46:45,140
that you needed to expand beyond
Toronto? 

1771
01:46:48,140 --> 01:47:00,780
Yeah. 
You sure you can cut that blank 

1772
01:47:00,790 --> 01:47:02,200
space there? 
It's just chasing the squirrel 

1773
01:47:02,210 --> 01:47:04,130
that's trying to eat all the 
feed that I have in my grass. 

1774
01:47:04,940 --> 01:47:10,580
Yeah, he doesn't care. 
Sort of back to that question 

1775
01:47:10,730 --> 01:47:15,210
321. 
Yeah. 

1776
01:47:15,220 --> 01:47:21,520
No, it was Toronto. 
Toronto was where again, as a as

1777
01:47:21,530 --> 01:47:25,020
a, as a place, we were, We were,
we were living, we were 

1778
01:47:25,030 --> 01:47:26,940
practicing, we were 
understanding the city. 

1779
01:47:26,950 --> 01:47:29,230
We were mapping it. 
We were trying to understand 

1780
01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:31,180
what the patterns were, what 
would be next. 

1781
01:47:31,190 --> 01:47:36,530
We were sort of informing the 
developers and the development 

1782
01:47:36,540 --> 01:47:40,540
community in a kind of, you 
know, oblivious way at 

1783
01:47:40,550 --> 01:47:44,910
sometimes, but in pursuit of 
growing a culture and supporting

1784
01:47:44,920 --> 01:47:47,280
that culture. 
And eventually that's just going

1785
01:47:47,290 --> 01:47:50,090
to take you into other settings.
Eventually that's going to take 

1786
01:47:50,100 --> 01:47:54,540
you into two other places. 
So in and around that same time,

1787
01:47:54,550 --> 01:48:00,350
one of one of our other 
associates, John Kubanek, was 

1788
01:48:01,910 --> 01:48:05,500
finding himself being pulled 
back to to Montreal, where he 

1789
01:48:05,510 --> 01:48:07,400
was, where he was from. 
OK. 

1790
01:48:08,230 --> 01:48:12,520
And so rather than you know, you
know, you know, part ways, we, 

1791
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:15,570
we, we said, well, why don't we 
just, why don't you just keep 

1792
01:48:15,580 --> 01:48:21,100
working at the RA and you can 
explore opportunities in, in, in

1793
01:48:21,110 --> 01:48:24,580
Montreal. 
So, you know, it was again, not 

1794
01:48:24,590 --> 01:48:28,160
by design, but just simply out 
of either accommodation. 

1795
01:48:28,170 --> 01:48:31,290
And we just hey man, we want you
to just. 

1796
01:48:31,300 --> 01:48:34,590
Stay. 
You know what do you mean leave?

1797
01:48:35,100 --> 01:48:36,990
Can't leave us. 
That's not happening. 

1798
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:42,650
So I would say, you know, in in 
welcoming the the number of, you

1799
01:48:42,660 --> 01:48:47,100
know, great individuals that 
we've seen, you know, contribute

1800
01:48:47,110 --> 01:48:49,910
to ERA over the years. 
We had we had so many people 

1801
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:56,140
that were from different places.
Victoria Angel had had had been 

1802
01:48:56,150 --> 01:49:00,260
with us in the Toronto office 
for some time and again felt the

1803
01:49:00,270 --> 01:49:03,780
pole to go back to Ottawa. 
So we found ourselves having an 

1804
01:49:03,790 --> 01:49:08,440
Ottawa practice. 
We had some individuals who 

1805
01:49:09,010 --> 01:49:11,870
decided to move out to Prince 
Edward County. 

1806
01:49:12,070 --> 01:49:14,900
We opened up a branch office out
out there. 

1807
01:49:15,690 --> 01:49:21,320
As much as we were feeling the 
whole to the East Coast, we felt

1808
01:49:21,330 --> 01:49:27,220
like out of province felt, um, a
little trickier for, for, for 

1809
01:49:27,230 --> 01:49:30,030
us. 
We, we understood, you know, we 

1810
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:32,850
could deal with Ontario. 
We, you know, Quebec, Montreal 

1811
01:49:32,860 --> 01:49:35,600
wasn't too far away. 
Out of province, either to the 

1812
01:49:35,610 --> 01:49:39,500
east or to the West was 
something that, that just wasn't

1813
01:49:39,510 --> 01:49:47,700
in the cards until I would say 
2017 or 18 when a few of our 

1814
01:49:47,710 --> 01:49:51,900
staff decided they, they felt 
the pull back to Calgary or the 

1815
01:49:51,910 --> 01:49:54,220
fullback to pull back to, to 
Vancouver. 

1816
01:49:54,230 --> 01:49:57,700
So we, we, and then, and then, 
you know, COVID hits and 

1817
01:49:57,710 --> 01:50:01,120
everybody goes back, you know, 
to their, to their, to their 

1818
01:50:01,130 --> 01:50:04,930
homes, their, the cities and 
places that they had had lived. 

1819
01:50:04,940 --> 01:50:08,870
So yeah, we, we, we kind of had 
a bit of a head start in 

1820
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:12,030
understanding how we might 
operate as a, as a national 

1821
01:50:12,420 --> 01:50:14,610
company. 
And, you know, we were accepting

1822
01:50:14,620 --> 01:50:18,010
and and we would take on, you 
know, opportunities that they 

1823
01:50:18,020 --> 01:50:20,690
popped up as as kind of, you 
know, you know, pop-up 

1824
01:50:20,700 --> 01:50:22,920
assignments. 
We we had done some work up in 

1825
01:50:22,930 --> 01:50:26,810
the Yukon and Dawson City. 
Canada's best kept secret shadow

1826
01:50:26,820 --> 01:50:31,340
to Dawson word. 
It's just absolutely. 

1827
01:50:31,410 --> 01:50:33,440
Cannot wait to get there. 
Incredible. 

1828
01:50:33,450 --> 01:50:36,780
Yeah. 
And we have been involved with 

1829
01:50:37,590 --> 01:50:40,950
some, you know, dabbling of 
projects across the, the 

1830
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:43,870
country, again, doing temporary 
licenses, but then eventually, 

1831
01:50:43,940 --> 01:50:47,070
you know, setting up shop and, 
and doing it in a more kind of 

1832
01:50:47,080 --> 01:50:51,310
formal way. 
So, so we, we, we have a few 

1833
01:50:51,350 --> 01:50:55,880
studios across the, the country 
and licenses to practice in, in 

1834
01:50:55,890 --> 01:50:59,360
most of the, the provinces. 
And, and again, our view our, 

1835
01:50:59,410 --> 01:51:02,220
our, our entry point is often 
still with, with heritage 

1836
01:51:02,230 --> 01:51:06,370
buildings and adaptive reuse. 
But you know, again, it's always

1837
01:51:06,650 --> 01:51:10,380
a value based proposition. 
What do you do with, with value?

1838
01:51:10,390 --> 01:51:14,480
So that that conversation gets 
you into all kinds of really 

1839
01:51:14,490 --> 01:51:17,120
interesting kinds of kinds of 
projects. 

1840
01:51:17,130 --> 01:51:19,580
So yeah. 
I love it. 

1841
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:27,730
Phil, tell me about outside of 
practice and because it I mean 

1842
01:51:27,740 --> 01:51:31,320
you as you describe it, the 
practice is is no longer just a 

1843
01:51:31,330 --> 01:51:34,060
small thing. 
So you're now what would you 

1844
01:51:34,070 --> 01:51:36,220
guesstimate an average of? 
How? 

1845
01:51:36,230 --> 01:51:39,000
Many, I would say we're around 
100 and 120 people. 

1846
01:51:39,070 --> 01:51:41,580
Like it's. 
It's a fair size. 

1847
01:51:42,250 --> 01:51:44,220
Compared to when you started, 
yeah, yeah. 

1848
01:51:44,270 --> 01:51:48,060
Yeah, it's, it's, it's grown for
sure. 

1849
01:51:48,150 --> 01:51:52,610
And you know you sometimes. 
Yeah. 

1850
01:51:52,620 --> 01:51:54,350
Do you wanna step away from that
and think about it? 

1851
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:56,310
I don't know. 
No, you you sometimes just 

1852
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:57,670
realize like, oh, that's a lot 
of people. 

1853
01:51:57,680 --> 01:52:00,090
Yeah, and that's a lot of 
projects. 

1854
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:02,750
Like you, that's that's hundreds
and hundreds of projects. 

1855
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:07,910
And, but I'll say like it, the 
resources that are available to 

1856
01:52:07,980 --> 01:52:16,640
the just the incredibly smart 
people and the, you know, the 

1857
01:52:16,650 --> 01:52:19,900
range of discussions and, and 
contributions and, and the 

1858
01:52:19,910 --> 01:52:24,900
network that you, you access is 
beyond your, your, your 

1859
01:52:24,910 --> 01:52:29,610
imagination. 
So, you know, it's a, it's a, 

1860
01:52:30,750 --> 01:52:36,630
it's always a, a lesson in how 
to, um, you know, manage your 

1861
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:41,440
business as, as a, as a business
owner, you're, you're constantly

1862
01:52:41,830 --> 01:52:44,420
thinking about what next. 
Yeah. 

1863
01:52:44,430 --> 01:52:49,270
And so that's sometimes you 
know, you, you, you find 

1864
01:52:49,280 --> 01:52:52,590
yourself, you know, you know 
very deep into your business. 

1865
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:54,510
At times you have to be across 
your business. 

1866
01:52:55,330 --> 01:52:58,420
Many times you have to look 
outside of, of your context, 

1867
01:52:58,430 --> 01:53:02,160
especially, you know, I would 
say over the last few years, the

1868
01:53:02,170 --> 01:53:05,800
challenge is, you know, not just
not just, you know, today, but 

1869
01:53:05,810 --> 01:53:09,510
over the last five or six years 
that we've all experienced and 

1870
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:13,110
that's been across industries 
like, yeah, you know, that 

1871
01:53:13,120 --> 01:53:18,280
that's the, the, the comforting 
aspect of it's not just in our 

1872
01:53:18,290 --> 01:53:21,040
building industry that we've 
seen the ups and the downs. 

1873
01:53:21,430 --> 01:53:26,320
It's it's across this country in
in all sectors and the 

1874
01:53:26,330 --> 01:53:31,490
challenges are are important to 
take stock on and understand 

1875
01:53:32,650 --> 01:53:34,140
what are the needs of our 
clients. 

1876
01:53:34,150 --> 01:53:36,960
What are the challenges they're 
they're they're hoping to to 

1877
01:53:36,970 --> 01:53:38,020
overcome. 
Yeah. 

1878
01:53:38,950 --> 01:53:43,620
You know, I many of our 
initiatives today are are trying

1879
01:53:43,630 --> 01:53:47,480
to address problems outside of 
architecture. 

1880
01:53:47,490 --> 01:53:50,930
I was, I was mentioning before 
we've got a a research program 

1881
01:53:50,940 --> 01:53:54,050
around our Great Lake basin 
like. 

1882
01:53:54,060 --> 01:53:55,960
Just this is sorry you say 
before this. 

1883
01:53:55,970 --> 01:53:58,610
I should preface, this is before
recording, right? 

1884
01:53:58,620 --> 01:54:05,510
Yeah, so so it was, it was 
shocking to me to take stock on 

1885
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:09,630
just how many people live in the
Great Lakes off the Great Lakes 

1886
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:12,520
and use the Great Lakes as their
their address. 

1887
01:54:12,530 --> 01:54:17,770
And there's been some incredible
work out of out of UT around 

1888
01:54:17,780 --> 01:54:20,490
just the the idea of a of a 
third coast. 

1889
01:54:21,220 --> 01:54:24,330
Mason White had put out a 
publication years ago. 

1890
01:54:24,700 --> 01:54:27,810
Inspirational. 
If anybody wants to check that 

1891
01:54:27,820 --> 01:54:33,780
out, it's just a, a beautiful 
publication of, of, of our, of 

1892
01:54:33,790 --> 01:54:37,910
our Great Lakes. 
And but you know, how does that 

1893
01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:40,190
get managed right? 
You know, 30 million people, how

1894
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:42,990
many trillions of dollars in 
that, in that economy. 

1895
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:44,330
Forget about the borders for a 
second. 

1896
01:54:44,340 --> 01:54:46,110
We all share this natural 
resource. 

1897
01:54:46,120 --> 01:54:50,130
So how communities continue to 
grow, how we do that 

1898
01:54:50,140 --> 01:54:55,330
respectfully, responsibly, how 
we deal with flooding, how we 

1899
01:54:55,940 --> 01:54:59,870
connect our Murias, different 
conservation authorities 

1900
01:54:59,880 --> 01:55:02,660
together, we may be planning for
growth. 

1901
01:55:02,670 --> 01:55:05,860
And that's been our focus for 
the last 25 years or so. 

1902
01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:09,780
I think our focus might shift 
over the next, you know, 5 to 20

1903
01:55:09,790 --> 01:55:12,130
years. 
And that that, you know, what 

1904
01:55:12,140 --> 01:55:16,530
we're planning for is, is still 
probably up in the in the air. 

1905
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:21,450
It might be planning for 
stewardship, planning for, you 

1906
01:55:21,460 --> 01:55:29,390
know, belonging, planning for 
what it is to, you know, sustain

1907
01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:31,930
an affordable lifestyle of of 
sorts. 

1908
01:55:31,940 --> 01:55:36,210
Those are all very accessible 
questions to to to many people. 

1909
01:55:36,220 --> 01:55:41,030
And that's a shared experience 
with many other cities that that

1910
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:42,910
are part of this Great Lake 
basin. 

1911
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:46,890
So as a research project, we've 
just been collecting data. 

1912
01:55:46,940 --> 01:55:53,730
I love it on that and hope to 
build that build that that 

1913
01:55:53,740 --> 01:55:55,930
knowledge base, that knowledge 
base up. 

1914
01:55:55,940 --> 01:56:01,840
So, you know, again, as a, as a,
as a, as the business evolves, 

1915
01:56:01,850 --> 01:56:08,240
as you look at the different 
headwinds of, of factors, I, you

1916
01:56:08,250 --> 01:56:11,360
know, globally and kind of on 
the micro scale, yeah, 

1917
01:56:11,430 --> 01:56:15,830
everything with, you know, from 
AI to global forces around the 

1918
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:19,640
world. 
This is an absolute wild moment 

1919
01:56:19,650 --> 01:56:25,930
to yeah, take stock on how to 
manage step by step and keep our

1920
01:56:25,940 --> 01:56:29,590
wits about ourselves, the 
challenges that we have as a 

1921
01:56:29,600 --> 01:56:33,080
culture and as a society. 
And I I think that's a call to 

1922
01:56:33,090 --> 01:56:34,530
action. 
We all have to. 

1923
01:56:34,580 --> 01:56:37,550
But we've been here before, You 
know, this isn't, we've had 

1924
01:56:37,560 --> 01:56:41,270
housing crisis before, you know,
we've we, you know, in the turn 

1925
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:43,590
of the last century, there's a 
woman in our office who did a 

1926
01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:48,160
ton of research on walk up 
apartment buildings and and 

1927
01:56:48,170 --> 01:56:52,590
discovered that the OHE during 
the last housing crisis, you 

1928
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:57,410
know, pre war apartment 
buildings were an emerging 

1929
01:56:57,420 --> 01:56:59,310
typology in this city. 
And you know what? 

1930
01:56:59,320 --> 01:57:00,890
We we forgot about that. 
Yeah, that. 

1931
01:57:00,900 --> 01:57:04,290
Typology focused on condos. 
Instead, we focused on all sorts

1932
01:57:04,300 --> 01:57:08,670
of other things and, you know, 
coming back to lessons learned 

1933
01:57:08,680 --> 01:57:12,410
of the city and the the kind of 
these these forgotten, you know,

1934
01:57:12,420 --> 01:57:16,130
historic building types. 
Let's let's understand how they,

1935
01:57:16,580 --> 01:57:19,200
you know, might provide 
opportunity to us, you know, 

1936
01:57:19,210 --> 01:57:23,040
moving forward. 
So I would say, I would say 

1937
01:57:23,110 --> 01:57:26,880
never has there been a more 
important moment to use those 

1938
01:57:26,890 --> 01:57:29,500
observation skills. 
And the knowledge that we've 

1939
01:57:29,510 --> 01:57:31,000
gained. 
Through that and grow that. 

1940
01:57:31,010 --> 01:57:32,760
And that now we can start 
banking. 

1941
01:57:33,110 --> 01:57:37,600
Yeah, absolutely. 
So, yeah, I would say, I would 

1942
01:57:37,610 --> 01:57:40,100
say being in the business, 
across the business and outside 

1943
01:57:40,110 --> 01:57:43,420
of it is really, really 
important. 

1944
01:57:43,430 --> 01:57:47,100
And as we evolve as 
practitioners and our, our roles

1945
01:57:47,110 --> 01:57:51,170
of what architects can be and 
what we can do and do, we who we

1946
01:57:51,180 --> 01:57:54,280
can talk to. 
I've always been frustrated by 

1947
01:57:56,160 --> 01:57:59,210
aspects of our profession. 
And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not 

1948
01:57:59,220 --> 01:58:03,010
alone in, in that. 
But much of what we do as 

1949
01:58:03,020 --> 01:58:06,290
architects has already been 
predetermined by the time we get

1950
01:58:06,300 --> 01:58:10,640
to, to certain stages of, of 
concept thinking and trying to 

1951
01:58:10,650 --> 01:58:12,610
address challenges for, for our 
clients. 

1952
01:58:12,620 --> 01:58:15,530
And, you know, in many ways, 
maybe, maybe as architects, we 

1953
01:58:15,540 --> 01:58:18,440
should have been more involved 
with some of the policy thinking

1954
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:20,990
that's been evolving over the 
years. 

1955
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:25,190
And we see it more and more now 
stepping into. 

1956
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:26,680
That time. 
Right. 

1957
01:58:26,910 --> 01:58:28,840
Yeah, it took me awhile to wake 
up to that too. 

1958
01:58:28,850 --> 01:58:33,120
But but it's, it's, we're, we're
all very much connected and we 

1959
01:58:33,130 --> 01:58:36,660
have some pretty big challenges 
to solve. 

1960
01:58:36,670 --> 01:58:40,440
For I agree. 
I want to ask you before we come

1961
01:58:40,450 --> 01:58:42,970
to an end here, I want to ask 
you a little bit about like you 

1962
01:58:42,980 --> 01:58:46,500
and what do you like to do 
outside of office and what what 

1963
01:58:46,510 --> 01:58:48,780
keeps you busy? 
What does family look like? 

1964
01:58:48,820 --> 01:58:50,900
Hmm. 
What are some of your interests 

1965
01:58:50,910 --> 01:58:54,200
and hobbies? 
If you can get a little bit into

1966
01:58:54,210 --> 01:58:57,520
that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give 
you like a couple minutes to 

1967
01:58:57,530 --> 01:58:59,950
just go ahead and share with 
that one. 

1968
01:58:59,960 --> 01:59:03,040
Yeah. 
Yeah, definitely. 

1969
01:59:03,090 --> 01:59:08,090
Um, hmm hobbies I I rarely feel 
it. 

1970
01:59:08,100 --> 01:59:12,740
That section of well of now, 
it's the now is the chance. 

1971
01:59:13,450 --> 01:59:15,060
You I know you like to collect 
stamps. 

1972
01:59:15,670 --> 01:59:18,100
I do like to collect stamps. 
Did I tell you? 

1973
01:59:18,110 --> 01:59:19,760
How do you actually? 
Yeah, I do. 

1974
01:59:19,770 --> 01:59:21,610
How did you just pull that? 
Out. 

1975
01:59:21,620 --> 01:59:22,720
Come on, are you being? 
Serious. 

1976
01:59:22,730 --> 01:59:28,170
Oh my goodness, yes, I have a a 
very rare stamp collection. 

1977
01:59:28,220 --> 01:59:32,090
I had no idea. 
Funny you you pull that out. 

1978
01:59:33,280 --> 01:59:36,750
Synergy at the moment, man. 
Yeah, actually that was that was

1979
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:41,030
my my introduction to global. 
The global world was collecting 

1980
01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:43,010
stamps back in the day. 
I love it. 

1981
01:59:43,060 --> 01:59:44,790
I love it. 
That's just probably. 

1982
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:47,450
Not as active in the in the 
stamp collection. 

1983
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:51,700
That's OK world anymore. 
But listen, I like, I like 

1984
01:59:51,710 --> 01:59:55,640
understanding what's going on in
in other people's businesses, 

1985
01:59:55,710 --> 01:59:58,480
OK? 
And I find that I find that 

1986
01:59:58,490 --> 02:00:04,550
absolutely invigorating to. 
To see what others are are are 

1987
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:07,310
up to. 
So I I still like to go to lots 

1988
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:11,490
of events and and meet new new 
people. 

1989
02:00:12,890 --> 02:00:16,650
I still work on old cars and fix
them up and sell them on a 

1990
02:00:16,660 --> 02:00:18,690
regular basis. 
No way. 

1991
02:00:19,610 --> 02:00:22,800
Yeah, and it's, it's the, it's 
the, it's the connection I have 

1992
02:00:22,810 --> 02:00:27,460
with, you know, restoration is, 
is keeping, keeping old vehicles

1993
02:00:27,470 --> 02:00:28,460
on the road. 
What? 

1994
02:00:28,510 --> 02:00:31,160
Wasting too much money and time?
What have what have been some of

1995
02:00:31,170 --> 02:00:33,540
the fun cars that you've? 
You know, I just, I just 

1996
02:00:33,550 --> 02:00:42,560
finished up a a 93 Land Rover 
Range Rover Classic 2 door that 

1997
02:00:42,570 --> 02:00:45,180
came out of Spain. 
So I just finished that. 

1998
02:00:45,710 --> 02:00:48,460
Sold it. 
I'm probably gonna put it up for

1999
02:00:48,470 --> 02:00:54,120
sale soon, reluctantly, but I've
got other projects that we just 

2000
02:00:54,130 --> 02:00:58,500
picked up, a little 1989 VW 
Cabriolet. 

2001
02:00:59,770 --> 02:01:01,200
I know that. 
Car, oh man, they're so fun. 

2002
02:01:01,210 --> 02:01:05,840
Like if you can get them at a 
bargain basement price, you're 

2003
02:01:05,850 --> 02:01:08,460
you're you're golden. 
OK, I mean, not many people have

2004
02:01:08,470 --> 02:01:11,300
the space, the time, and 
honestly, nobody knows how to 

2005
02:01:11,310 --> 02:01:13,730
drive stick anymore. 
So it's just like you're picking

2006
02:01:13,740 --> 02:01:15,560
up these things left, next to 
nothing, right? 

2007
02:01:15,610 --> 02:01:20,160
The the my current car and I 
guess I was gonna say the car 

2008
02:01:20,170 --> 02:01:22,230
that I have now is the first 
time, but it's not really the 

2009
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,010
second car. 
I've been driving manual my 

2010
02:01:25,020 --> 02:01:29,540
entire life and I only recently 
switched to auto only because I 

2011
02:01:29,550 --> 02:01:33,040
couldn't get a bike rack on the 
previous car that I had and I 

2012
02:01:33,050 --> 02:01:35,110
knew I would have to borrow my 
wife and my wife doesn't have to

2013
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:37,580
drive manual. 
So I had to go auto because of a

2014
02:01:37,590 --> 02:01:39,620
bike rack. 
Yeah, I know that's pathetic, 

2015
02:01:39,630 --> 02:01:43,180
but like, yeah, I have a 
motorcycle right next door. 

2016
02:01:43,190 --> 02:01:44,910
To us, do you? 
Yeah, like we'll have to check 

2017
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:45,300
that. 
Out. 

2018
02:01:45,310 --> 02:01:47,650
At least I get to ride. 
Yeah, you will there anyhow. 

2019
02:01:47,660 --> 02:01:50,280
Go ahead. 
No, no, it's it's what else? 

2020
02:01:50,940 --> 02:01:53,290
What other hobbies? 
What other hobbies are you into?

2021
02:01:53,700 --> 02:01:56,490
Well, I'm a father of two 
teenage boys right now. 

2022
02:01:56,500 --> 02:02:02,760
There you go. 
And I'll say it's a that is a a 

2023
02:02:02,770 --> 02:02:08,730
daily lesson on its on its own. 
And it, I, I realized, you know,

2024
02:02:08,820 --> 02:02:13,970
when the kids were young, my, 
my, my role was really quite 

2025
02:02:13,980 --> 02:02:17,850
specific and my, you know, 
contributions and, you know, 

2026
02:02:17,860 --> 02:02:20,100
playing with the kids and do you
know that stuff? 

2027
02:02:20,110 --> 02:02:26,520
But I, I, I, I didn't feel and 
my role was very different to 

2028
02:02:26,530 --> 02:02:29,810
six year olds than it was to, 
you know, a 14 year old or an 18

2029
02:02:29,820 --> 02:02:32,760
year old, of course. 
And like what it is for young 

2030
02:02:32,770 --> 02:02:37,060
people to turn into adults is, 
is absolutely wild. 

2031
02:02:37,070 --> 02:02:40,680
And you realize, oh gosh, I 
haven't matured beyond the age 

2032
02:02:40,690 --> 02:02:44,150
of 17. 
There is and I relate to this 17

2033
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:46,560
year old, you know, in a way 
that is just like, ohe, I 

2034
02:02:46,570 --> 02:02:49,960
haven't really, really matured 
much, much beyond this. 

2035
02:02:49,970 --> 02:02:55,670
It feels that at times, I'll 
admit to, to everybody, but it 

2036
02:02:55,680 --> 02:03:04,240
is, it is really and a 
wonderful, um, thing to, to. 

2037
02:03:04,430 --> 02:03:06,040
It's one thing to learn it for 
the first time. 

2038
02:03:06,050 --> 02:03:10,300
It's another to sort of pass the
the experience along to to to 

2039
02:03:10,310 --> 02:03:12,240
someone else. 
And watch them, watch them go 

2040
02:03:12,250 --> 02:03:14,140
through. 
It yeah, watch them try. 

2041
02:03:14,150 --> 02:03:20,210
Watch them fail being OK letting
them fail at it showing them how

2042
02:03:20,220 --> 02:03:24,430
to deal with that that failure. 
And actually, there's, there's, 

2043
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:25,870
there's that's part of the 
process. 

2044
02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:30,390
And, and actually, I, I'm just a
throwback to I think my second 

2045
02:03:30,400 --> 02:03:34,690
day on the job on a project 
with, with Edwin, one of the 

2046
02:03:34,700 --> 02:03:39,400
former partners and admit this 
on I was we were inspecting the,

2047
02:03:39,470 --> 02:03:44,150
the, the former city TV building
at 299 Queen. 

2048
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:46,070
Yep. 
And we were up there on a swing 

2049
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:48,510
stage. 
Having to Moses Neimer. 

2050
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:51,630
Yeah, Shadow you know, 
inspecting all the little 

2051
02:03:51,640 --> 02:03:55,030
terracotta yeah blocks to see 
have any cracked, are they 

2052
02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:58,860
compromise what have you. 
And as we're coming down the 

2053
02:03:58,870 --> 02:04:02,750
swing stage and there's a little
lip there on the, on the upper 

2054
02:04:03,140 --> 02:04:07,990
level there over the 2nd floor, 
you have to sort of the, the 

2055
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:10,850
operator for the swing stage. 
Look, just push your push off 

2056
02:04:10,860 --> 02:04:14,370
the wall so we don't knock the 
cornice level there and, and 

2057
02:04:14,440 --> 02:04:17,390
keep it away. 
And we'll bring the swing stage 

2058
02:04:17,400 --> 02:04:20,660
over top and I'll lower it down 
very gently, very carefully. 

2059
02:04:21,330 --> 02:04:24,520
And as we were, as we were 
coming down over, over that 

2060
02:04:24,530 --> 02:04:27,500
little lip there, I didn't pull 
my leg in fast enough. 

2061
02:04:27,510 --> 02:04:32,300
And I broke the speaker's corner
sign, the little neon thing. 

2062
02:04:32,430 --> 02:04:35,020
And I felt so awful. 
I felt so bad. 

2063
02:04:35,070 --> 02:04:41,700
And the, the the operator there,
you know, I could just tell how 

2064
02:04:41,710 --> 02:04:45,620
devastated I was that I, I, I 
did some damage story. 

2065
02:04:45,930 --> 02:04:48,270
I think others own that building
now. 

2066
02:04:48,280 --> 02:04:52,120
I apologize. 
But he said to me, if you're, if

2067
02:04:52,130 --> 02:04:55,180
you're not making mistakes in 
life, you're really not doing 

2068
02:04:55,190 --> 02:04:57,950
much, which is a sort of take 
off, something I think Albert 

2069
02:04:57,960 --> 02:05:01,280
Einstein had said. 
And I being comfortable enough 

2070
02:05:01,290 --> 02:05:04,440
with with making mistakes and 
dealing with with failure. 

2071
02:05:05,270 --> 02:05:10,650
It was it was something I 
learned to just get over, you 

2072
02:05:10,660 --> 02:05:13,570
know, get over the, the, the 
fear of, of, of failure. 

2073
02:05:13,580 --> 02:05:17,050
And I would, I would say that to
a young person has, you know, 

2074
02:05:17,060 --> 02:05:19,230
huge, my huge impact. 
Right. 

2075
02:05:19,240 --> 02:05:23,000
My, my children really struggle 
with not doing things perfectly,

2076
02:05:23,060 --> 02:05:26,650
like monumental breakdown 
sometime because this is not 

2077
02:05:26,660 --> 02:05:28,370
done the way they were hoping it
would be done. 

2078
02:05:28,380 --> 02:05:32,530
I'm like, it's OK, don't worry. 
Could you imagine having the 

2079
02:05:32,540 --> 02:05:36,790
fear, having that fear and, and 
letting that be a barrier to 

2080
02:05:36,800 --> 02:05:40,210
stop you from taking a chance 
from designing or 

2081
02:05:40,220 --> 02:05:43,070
conceptualizing something and 
that that you wouldn't have that

2082
02:05:43,080 --> 02:05:46,110
feeling of seeing it built or 
seen it constructed? 

2083
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:49,240
Or again, that this got that 
goes, all of this goes back to 

2084
02:05:49,250 --> 02:05:54,340
why I want, you know, why I like
doing this is because you talk 

2085
02:05:54,350 --> 02:05:56,680
through all the errors and 
mistakes and everything you've 

2086
02:05:56,690 --> 02:05:58,460
done over the course of your 
career and what it can look 

2087
02:05:58,470 --> 02:06:01,520
like. 
And it's not about the awards 

2088
02:06:01,530 --> 02:06:03,840
and it's not about someone else 
telling your story and defining 

2089
02:06:03,850 --> 02:06:05,100
it. 
It's an opportunity for you to 

2090
02:06:05,110 --> 02:06:07,180
be able to recognize all the 
things you had to go through to 

2091
02:06:07,190 --> 02:06:11,700
get to where you are and the the
beauty associated with that, 

2092
02:06:11,790 --> 02:06:17,970
that it's not a linear path. 
Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's 

2093
02:06:17,980 --> 02:06:21,460
pretty true and it's pretty, um,
we're all, we're all pretty 

2094
02:06:21,470 --> 02:06:24,510
lucky to do this for, for a. 
Living I wanna ask you one last 

2095
02:06:24,520 --> 02:06:25,680
thing. 
And that is like there's a, 

2096
02:06:25,690 --> 02:06:28,630
there's, I assume that there is 
someone that you you've 

2097
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:31,410
referenced only once or twice 
here, but this probably 

2098
02:06:31,900 --> 02:06:34,650
emboldened you to be able to go 
out and pursue a lot of your 

2099
02:06:34,940 --> 02:06:36,780
career. 
A. 

2100
02:06:40,340 --> 02:06:41,520
Is that my wife? 
Yes. 

2101
02:06:41,530 --> 02:06:43,110
Oht. 
My goodness, I got it right. 

2102
02:06:43,380 --> 02:06:50,730
You know, she's a pretty special
person and an incredible 

2103
02:06:50,780 --> 02:06:54,580
individual and, you know, a 
partner. 

2104
02:06:56,090 --> 02:06:59,370
And I think, I think, you know, 
you're, you're really lucky out 

2105
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:04,930
in life to find individuals to 
support you, encourage you, 

2106
02:07:04,940 --> 02:07:05,950
Yeah. 
And have your back. 

2107
02:07:06,020 --> 02:07:11,520
Yeah. 
And I think I'm, I'm, I'm beyond

2108
02:07:11,530 --> 02:07:19,540
lucky for for that. 
And, you know, to have the the 

2109
02:07:19,550 --> 02:07:25,920
comfort and, and, you know, to 
just to have it, to have a 

2110
02:07:25,930 --> 02:07:26,680
partner. 
Yeah. 

2111
02:07:26,690 --> 02:07:33,940
So somebody to throw ideas off 
of and take chances with and 

2112
02:07:33,950 --> 02:07:37,590
whether they agree with you or 
not, like they, you know, OK, 

2113
02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:43,580
well, whatever happens. 
So no, no, I've been, I, I've, 

2114
02:07:43,630 --> 02:07:48,240
I've been fitted from her 
experiences and her the chances 

2115
02:07:48,250 --> 02:07:51,900
that she's taken, Yeah. 
And I've been a big supporter at

2116
02:07:51,970 --> 02:07:55,440
times in my life for, for those,
for those periods. 

2117
02:07:55,810 --> 02:07:57,700
And she's done the same for, for
me. 

2118
02:07:57,770 --> 02:08:04,160
So yeah, no, it's a a lesson in,
I would say that's a, that's 

2119
02:08:04,170 --> 02:08:08,920
probably a, a value we share 
with each other. 

2120
02:08:09,250 --> 02:08:14,170
There's a there's a Yoko Ono 
piece of artwork that I think is

2121
02:08:14,240 --> 02:08:17,770
is it We both value so much. 
Yeah. 

2122
02:08:18,670 --> 02:08:24,440
And it was actually a, a piece 
that I forget the story of 

2123
02:08:24,450 --> 02:08:28,430
somebody, you can check it out. 
But it's the, it's a ladder in a

2124
02:08:28,440 --> 02:08:31,010
museum. 
And it goes up to the ceiling. 

2125
02:08:31,200 --> 02:08:33,710
And at the top of the ladder, 
there's a little magnifying 

2126
02:08:33,720 --> 02:08:36,120
glass and you hold it up to the 
ceiling. 

2127
02:08:36,130 --> 02:08:39,870
There's a little piece of paper.
And on that piece of paper, it's

2128
02:08:39,940 --> 02:08:45,310
the simple word yes. 
And that I think is something 

2129
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:50,580
that both both Julie and I 
believe in as a vision and 

2130
02:08:50,590 --> 02:08:54,400
driver or everything we both 
have taken on. 

2131
02:08:55,120 --> 02:09:00,080
And that can be absolutely 
terrifying and it can be 

2132
02:09:00,140 --> 02:09:04,220
absolutely comforting. 
And it's stages and phases of 

2133
02:09:04,230 --> 02:09:08,150
your lives, of your relationship
and your, your family. 

2134
02:09:09,350 --> 02:09:13,450
It's, it's been a solid touch 
point for for both of us, yeah. 

2135
02:09:13,880 --> 02:09:16,670
Phil it has been fucking 
awesome. 

2136
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:19,620
Yeah, you here. 
Man, and now I have to turn on 

2137
02:09:19,630 --> 02:09:21,470
the explicit rating for the for 
the. 

2138
02:09:22,720 --> 02:09:26,130
We both have together. 
Yeah, honestly, man, it's been 

2139
02:09:26,140 --> 02:09:29,410
such an absolute, absolute 
fucking joy having you on here 

2140
02:09:29,420 --> 02:09:33,450
and having you show the story is
I've I've loved this man. 

2141
02:09:33,540 --> 02:09:36,310
Thank you Jonathan. 
This was this was really fun. 

2142
02:09:36,380 --> 02:09:37,670
Better than you thought it would
be, right? 

2143
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:39,760
Yeah. 
The nerves they they, they 

2144
02:09:39,770 --> 02:09:40,750
dissipated. 
They do. 

2145
02:09:40,760 --> 02:09:41,730
You were right. 
You were right. 

2146
02:09:41,740 --> 02:09:45,350
I was I A camera and a 
microphone can be pretty 

2147
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:46,870
intimidating. 
There's no camera. 

2148
02:09:46,970 --> 02:09:48,530
Yeah, right. 
That's the beauty of this. 

2149
02:09:48,710 --> 02:09:54,180
For anyone else listening right 
now, worth noting to take in 

2150
02:09:54,190 --> 02:09:57,520
some of the work that ERA does, 
you can head over to Instagram. 

2151
02:09:58,510 --> 02:10:02,600
You can go to my account. 
You can go to the IRA account. 

2152
02:10:02,710 --> 02:10:04,980
You'll be able to see the work. 
You can go to the website. 

2153
02:10:04,990 --> 02:10:10,800
Link is in the liner notes. 
Also, I would kindly ask that if

2154
02:10:10,810 --> 02:10:13,140
you are listening to this and 
you're in a studio and there's 

2155
02:10:13,150 --> 02:10:16,340
more than one of you, if you 
wouldn't mind just as like a 

2156
02:10:16,350 --> 02:10:20,820
group going and giving this show
a rating, it will really help 

2157
02:10:20,830 --> 02:10:23,630
like 5 stars really helps with 
the exposure. 

2158
02:10:23,670 --> 02:10:26,200
So go ahead and do that. 
Make that a group effort. 

2159
02:10:26,500 --> 02:10:30,990
I appreciate that. 
And then the last thing is if 

2160
02:10:31,000 --> 02:10:32,580
you would agree that Phil's 
awesome. 

2161
02:10:32,590 --> 02:10:34,780
I mean, you could just you could
write a comment also in the, I 

2162
02:10:34,790 --> 02:10:39,300
don't know, and the into on 
Spotify or on YouTube. 

2163
02:10:39,370 --> 02:10:43,550
So dude, thank you for doing 
this and for you listening. 

2164
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:45,260
Thank you for listening. 
It's been. 

2165
02:10:45,490 --> 02:10:48,270
It's been so, so much. 
Thank you, Jonathan.