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Before we get into the skills. 
Wise Mine ADBT podcast would 

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like to begin by acknowledging 
the dark and young people, the 

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traditional custodians of the 
land on which we live and work. 

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We pay our deepest respects to 
Elders past, present and 

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emerging. 
Always was, always will be 

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Aboriginal land. 
Hello and welcome back to Wise 

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Mind, a DBT podcast with myself,
Madeline Robinson, and the 

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wonderful Rachel Green, where 
you can get your weekly dose of 

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DBT skills to create a life 
worth living one skill at a 

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time. 
Welcome back and thank you for 

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joining us today. 
We're so happy to have you here 

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with us today. 
We are beefing into a very, very

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important concept that we've 
been telling you that we're 

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going to do it for ages. 
But first we want to say we 

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finally released those dates. 
If you would like to join our 

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ten week online DBT group 
available internationally except

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for USA and Canada, we are so 
sorry. 

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Please jump onto our website 
Wise Minds collective.com dot AU

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and the link is there to 
register and pay which is so 

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exciting for us. 
We finally got our shit together

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and got stuff done right, right.
Well done US and apologies to 

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the United States and Canada. 
The issue is insurance. 

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It's proving impossible for us 
to get insurance to provide 

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clinical services in the USA and
Canada. 

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Your insurance system is very, 
very different from anything in,

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in, well, it looks like from any
other country, to be honest. 

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And one of the interesting 
things I found in the United 

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States as a, as a therapist, 
they're licenced in each state. 

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So there's right, 50 whatever 
states in the United States. 

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So as a therapist, you 
potentially will need 50 

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something licences. 
Whereas in Australia it's one 

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licence for the whole country, 
right, which makes it much 

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easier. 
We can practise across the whole

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country and we have reciprocal 
arrangements with other 

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countries. 
So United States that's and 

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Canada. 
That is the only reason we would

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love to include you, but we 
would not be covered for 

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insurance and putting our 
registration at risk. 

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So apologies for that. 
If if anyone out there is an 

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insurance company and would like
to insure us, we would love to 

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hear from you. 
And sponsor us, that's 

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completely fine. 
We'll accept that. 

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We'd love that. 
But you worked so hard to try 

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and get that. 
We met with lawyers and met. 

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We did so much to try and get 
that up and running for you, but

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it just wasn't successful on 
that. 

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It's not going to be at this 
stage. 

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And I also want to do a huge 
shout out. 

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We have two new Patreon members.
Thank you so much. 

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A big shout out to Christopher 
Lindsay and to Brooke for 

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joining us on Patreon. 
We really appreciate it. 

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Thank you so much for joining us
and we are excited to give you, 

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you know, bonus content and 
episodes each week. 

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And if you are interested in 
some more content, bonus 

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resources and and episodes, jump
onto our website. 

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Why is my collective? 
And it's got the link to our 

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Patreon account. 
But let's kick off today into 

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this big exciting episode of 
Behaviour, right Rach? 

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And behaviour principles, You 
know, this is kind of the core 

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of a lot of our learnings, but 
it can be applied consistently 

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through DBT and particularly in 
Group therapy. 

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This is how we as therapists, 
you know, we give the content of

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DBT and go through it and break 
it down, but also we change 

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behaviour. 
Yes, and a lot of people who 

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come into DBT come into DBT 
because they have behaviours 

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that are blowing up their lives 
and they have some really 

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ineffective behaviours. 
And so DBT BT is a behavioural 

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therapy. 
That's what the B is, you know, 

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as a cognitive behavioural 
therapy. 

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It's about changing behaviour. 
Now the word behaviour is a 

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really kind of laden word, isn't
it? 

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You think behaviour in, oh, your
behaviour is bad or it's all 

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behavioural. 
Yeah. 

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And therefore if it's all 
behavioural, you can change 

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that. 
Your behaviour, it's all on you.

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Whereas we know, and as we've 
talked about in this podcast a 

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hell of a lot, there's a 
neurobiology that goes along 

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with these behaviours. 
Behaviour is part of it, but 

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it's also your biology, your 
temperament, what's happening in

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your brain and your previous 
experiences. 

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So that's we've, we've discussed
that, but today we are just 

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looking at this idea of 
behavioural principles, how you 

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can reinforce yourself to change
your behaviours, what things are

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going to get in the way of you 
changing your behaviour. 

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So you can use this episode 
today to think about your own 

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behaviour, but also the 
behaviours of others, right? 

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Like you want to influence other
people's behaviours. 

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Exactly. 
Exactly. 

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And again, we all have 
behaviours, some of them are 

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effective, some of them are 
really ineffective. 

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And just for the listeners, just
a bit of a recap. 

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What is our behaviour? 
Great. 

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We should have defined that, 
right? 

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Thank you, Maddie. 
Look, I love a simple definition

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as you do, Maddie. 
And that. 

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I don't know what definition you
love, but my favourite 

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definition is for behaviour. 
Is anything an Organism does? 

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You being the Organism? 
Yeah, you're an Organism, right?

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Exactly, exactly. 
I like to describe it is if I 

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was a fly on the wall, anything 
I see you or anything doing, you

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know another word we might use 
for this is action. 

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It's a verb, right? 
It's a verb. 

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Behaviour is a doing word. 
Now that is often seen defined 

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as something that we can 
directly observe that you said 

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fine or what, but there is other
therapies, exceptions and 

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commitment. 
Therapy would be an example of 

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this who broaden even further 
that definition of behaviour. 

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And they would say, yes, it's 
anything an Organism does. 

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So anything we can observe a 
person or Organism, you know, an

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animal or whatever do, but also 
any internal experience that 

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that or Organism has. 
So they would classify thoughts 

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as behaviour because that's 
something the Organism does, the

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Organism thinks. 
So therefore those thoughts or 

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behaviours, anything the 
Organism feels. 

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So emotions as a behaviour. 
So their definition is, is much 

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broader, yeah. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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And I guess from a DBT lens and 
what we were going to kind of 

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sit in today is that initial 
definition of anything you see 

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an Organism doing an action. 
That's how we're rolling with 

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that today. 
And in devotee we do, we 

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separate behaviour, emotions, 
body sensations, thoughts as 

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different to each other, right? 
Yeah. 

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So we're going to have been 
taking a deep dive into 

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behaviour today, but we're going
to just start off first of all 

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talking about behaviour in 
general. 

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And I'm just going to go through
a couple of quotes that I 

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really, really like around this 
idea and this concept of 

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behaviour. 
Because as I said, there's a lot

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of negative attitudes out there 
towards people who are 

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perceived, as, you know, they're
mental illness is all 

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behavioural, therefore it's 
always in their control, yeah. 

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And it's so frustrating as a 
clinician, right? 

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Like when I've worked in the 
hospital before, you have the 

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mental health team come out and 
assess someone that's in there 

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and seeking and wanting mental 
health support and mental health

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come back and say oh, it's just 
behavioural. 

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And it's actually in the. 
Yes, it is. 

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Like, yes, there's a behaviour, 
but dams from a whole lot of 

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other things. 
It's not just a behaviour rule, 

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right? 
Yeah, no, this person isn't 

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behaviouring a certain way in a 
it's factually incorrect to say 

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it's behaviour because each 
behaviour has an associated 

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thought. 
Each behaviour has associated 

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emotion, body sensation, urge 
and a neurobiological, 

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neurobiological process that is 
happening in that person's brain

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around that behaviour. 
So to just say it's all 

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behaviour, behaviour couldn't be
more wrong. 

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So if you have been called 
behavioural, I want you to hear 

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that because it's incredibly 
validating thing. 

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And there's a real sense of 
shame that I could imagine comes

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with going. 
It's all behavioural, you can 

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change it. 
It's like, well I wouldn't be 

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seeking this help if I. 
Could yes, if I, if I could 

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change it, I would have changed 
it by now, right? 

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Absolutely. 
OK, so I'm just going to go 

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through a couple of quotes that 
I just really love. 

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And the first one is beneath 
every behaviour there is a 

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feeling and beneath every 
feeling there is a need. 

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And when we meet that need, 
rather than focus on the 

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behaviour, we begin to deal with
the cause, not the symptom. 

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What do you think about that? 
Mad, Isn't that gorgeous? 

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Absolutely. 
And it speaks that, you know, we

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don't just do things out of 
sheer doing, do things that we 

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think are going to meet a need, 
that are going to serve a 

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purpose. 
You know, and often and 

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sometimes for lots of people, we
can do this in an effective 

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ways. 
That's right. 

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And for other people, maybe it's
effective ways and it's about 

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working out for you. 
It's like maybe the ways you're 

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trying to get your needs met are
ineffective. 

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And and again, this is not to 
blame. 

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This is not to judge. 
This is just to say. 

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Well, you've probably learned 
that from. 

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Somewhere you haven't learned 
how to get your needs met and 

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now there's alternates. 
That's right. 

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And so if we can, instead of 
focusing on the behaviour that 

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we're seeing in front of us, 
what if we focused on and seeing

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that it's behavioural and 
attention seeking, What if we 

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saw that as need seeking, 
connection seeking? 

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What is the person's need that 
the behaviour is trying to 

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achieve? 
It's much more effective to deal

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with that. 
OK, another little quote, and I 

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love this because it really 
validates the trauma background 

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that a lot of people with BPD 
and complex PTSD are coming 

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with. 
When we're seeing these 

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ineffective behaviours, it's 
because behind every behaviour 

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is a story that will break your 
heart. 

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Isn't that? 
Oh my. 

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God, I feel like I'm gonna cry. 
That's incredible. 

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When we sit there and we listen 
to the stories of people with 

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BPD and complex TRA trauma, 
there are these stories that 

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break our hearts, right? 
And sometimes as clinicians, I 

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think we can lose side of that 
when we're so focused on the, 

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the behaviour that's so 
ineffective and maybe a chaotic 

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and blowing up the, the person's
life and making our lives 

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difficult as clinicians, because
we're trying to manage all of 

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these. 
We've lost sight of the fact 

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that there is stories here. 
There is a large story here that

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this person has bought that 
would break your heart. 

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Because as we've talked about at
length, over 90% of people with 

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BPD and complex PTSD have had 
significant childhood trauma, 

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often before the age of 5. 
And that's the reason. 

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Yeah. 
And I think, you know, we can 

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speak to this as therapists is 
that I've never met a client 

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that's walked through my therapy
doors. 

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So look, no, actually, I 
shouldn't say never. 

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That's very absolute. 
Isn't it? 

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It is the reason why you should 
have pulled me out. 

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You're a bad therapist. 
I think there's another one. 

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But there's very few times when 
I've had a client walk in and 

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you know, they might be saying 
there's aggressive behaviours or

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self harm or there's these 
behaviours that we identify as 

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an effective. 
And once I hear why they're 

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doing. 
It. 

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Oh, my God, the empathy that 
comes, it's just, it makes 

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complete sense. 
And I've never not felt that for

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a lot of my clients. 
Yeah. 

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So always. 
And if you're listening at the 

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moment, you know, really coming 
from that point of life, this is

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about understanding why you do 
what you do. 

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This is another method of 
understanding that. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Now this last one's my favourite

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one. 
I love this one. 

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The child that is not embraced 
by the village will burn it down

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to feel its warmth. 
And I say this as someone whose 

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village has been burned down 
several occasions. 

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I'm just going to say that 
again, the child that is not 

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embraced by the village will 
burn it down to feel its warmth.

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And I'm speaking here primarily 
to clinicians listening is that 

230
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:03,520
sometimes we're not meeting the 
client where they need to be 

231
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,440
met. 
And if we're focusing on beha, 

232
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,360
on, you know, this is all 
behavioural, this is all 

233
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,800
ineffective. 
And, you know, then the person 

234
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,880
has no other choice than to 
escalate their behaviour, right?

235
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,200
Because they have to get our 
attention and help somehow. 

236
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,760
And if I think a lot of times 
people with BPD and complex 

237
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,720
trauma, they are reaching out 
for help now, they're not, as 

238
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,600
you said, they're not always 
reaching out for help in 

239
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,680
effective ways. 
And sometimes these are ways 

240
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:32,400
that clinicians can find 
frustrating. 

241
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,000
But it's the only way that these
people do at the moment know how

242
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,920
to reach out given the skills 
they have at this point in their

243
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,560
life. 
And if we miss that opportunity,

244
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,440
we give the person no place 
other to go other than to 

245
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,600
escalate. 
You know, I think the classic 

246
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,920
example is, you know, when my 
kids were really little, going 

247
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,480
through the supermarket 
checkout, on one side there'd be

248
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,520
lollies, you know, all these 
tasty lollies. 

249
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,720
And on the other side of the 
aisle, as you're going through, 

250
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,480
there were Golden Books. 
And I had one kid who wanted the

251
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,800
lollies and the other kid wanted
the Golden Books. 

252
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,760
All right, So 2 very different 
kind of kids. 

253
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,480
But as we're going through, it's
Mummy, Mummy. 

254
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,920
Guess which one was? 
Which, yeah, you know both of 

255
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,680
them, right? 
And you know exactly which one 

256
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,760
is which. 
You know, it would be mummy, 

257
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,520
Mummy, can I have a lolly? 
Mummy, Mummy, can I have a 

258
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,000
Golden Book? 
And sometimes it was, yes, 

259
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,280
right. 
But you know, a lot of the time 

260
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,760
as it was, no, not today. 
Now when Maddie, I'm taking not 

261
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,120
my kids because my kids are 
absolutely perfect. 

262
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,640
Obviously, let's talk about 
someone else. 

263
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,120
So they're going to check out. 
And Mummy says, no, you can't 

264
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,160
have the lolly, you can't have 
the Golden Book. 

265
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,440
What does the kid do? 
The kids start to get upset and 

266
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,960
they start to cry or they start 
to get cranky, right? 

267
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,400
That's right. 
And then you if you still start 

268
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,440
to say no, what happens? 
Yeah, I say no, No, I've said 

269
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,360
no. 
And I mean no. 

270
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,840
What does the kid do? 
Well, they get louder and louder

271
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,120
and louder and louder and 
louder. 

272
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,080
That's right. 
And they say, and I continue to 

273
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,720
say, no, no, I'm the kid. 
And then at the end, the kids 

274
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,320
lying on the floor having 
attention, they're screaming. 

275
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:04,880
Now what happens if I go, oh for
God's sake, I can't stand this 

276
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,360
anymore? 
Fine, here have your golden 

277
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,840
book, have your chocolate. 
What does the child learn in 

278
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,360
that moment? 
They learn a very, very 

279
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,840
effective way to get their needs
men is that every time I 

280
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,080
escalate and I get to the point 
of screaming tension, a complete

281
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,440
tension on the floor, he said. 
I get my needs met. 

282
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,640
That's right. 
No doesn't mean. 

283
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,840
No means no means I just have to
ask again and again and again. 

284
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,600
And as long as I keep escalating
and and increasing my demands 

285
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,640
and, you know, building to a 
tantrum, eventually I know I'm 

286
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,760
going to get what I want. 
Now, I'm not saying these little

287
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,200
kids are being manipulative or, 
you know, kids are just working 

288
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,680
out what works. 
This is not a conscious thing 

289
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,640
that the child is trying to do 
because I don't think, Oh my 

290
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,080
gosh, my, you know, these kids 
trying to manipulate me. 

291
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,560
Kids aren't sophisticated enough
with their brains to be able to 

292
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,600
do that. 
They're just looking for what 

293
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,760
works. 
Now eventually what the child 

294
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,840
learns is I'm going to cut out 
the middleman here because if I 

295
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,000
just ask in a normal effective 
way, that gets ignored, all 

296
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,920
right. 
And if I just escalate and 

297
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,040
escalate, that gets ignored too.
The only time I actually get 

298
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,000
what I want is when I have a 
huge tantrum. 

299
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,800
So I'm going to go straight to 
the tantrum. 

300
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,840
I'm just going to cut out all 
this other stuff because that's 

301
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,880
a waste of time. 
So it's going to be mummy, can I

302
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,880
have a chocolate? 
And the next minute the kids on 

303
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,000
the floor having this huge 
tantrum because they've learnt 

304
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,880
that's what gets the chocolate. 
Now that learning, if we apply 

305
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,440
that to growing up in houses 
where there might be trauma or 

306
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,040
abuse or neglect or not getting 
our meet needs met, is the kid 

307
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,240
is approaching the parent asking
for a need to be met now. 

308
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,960
Now if the child is continually 
ignored for that need to be met 

309
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,040
and the only thing that gets the
child's needs met is for that 

310
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,800
child to have a huge meltdown or
a tantrum or to escalate, then 

311
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,680
that is what the child is going 
to do in future to get all of 

312
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,120
their needs met. 
So as an adult, when you have 

313
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,000
someone rocking into Ed, huge 
behaviours, huge escalation, 

314
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,960
that's a child that weren't. 
The only way I get my needs met 

315
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,160
is to escalate and we reinforce 
that as mental health services 

316
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,520
because we say you cannot get a 
bed in a mental health unit or 

317
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,160
you cannot get support from us 
unless you are really acutely 

318
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,200
suicidal. 
Yeah, so all and really, really 

319
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200
distressed. 
And so our clients will go, OK, 

320
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,840
if that's the only way I'm going
to get help, then that's. 

321
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,320
How I'll be exactly exactly? 
And then we blame them for for 

322
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,880
something we taught them. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

323
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:30,800
And look, this is reoccurring in
Ed. 

324
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,760
You know, we'll have people that
I know, you know, even at times 

325
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,200
people are there. 
They're a regular offender of 

326
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,520
the Ed system and. 
That's the language, isn't it? 

327
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,360
They're a frequent flyer. 
They're a regular offender 

328
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,800
killing. 
Exactly. 

329
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,400
So you know what we're actually,
you know, we can reframe that 

330
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,280
and what we can hear is actually
the system is not being able to 

331
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,120
meet their needs and continues 
not and they will continue to be

332
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,560
a, you know, again, in quotation
marks, frequent flyer until 

333
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,480
their needs are met. 
Yeah, OK. 

334
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,440
So let's have a look at starting
off with just some basic ideas 

335
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,920
around around this. 
So when we're talking about 

336
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,319
behaviour is how should we be 
talking about them if we're not 

337
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,680
going to sort of use this 
negative, you know, attitudinal 

338
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,200
approach to behaviour 
management. 

339
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,119
So in DBT we would say 
behaviours are neither effective

340
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,119
nor in sorry behaviours are 
effective or ineffective. 

341
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,480
Yes, they are not good or bad. 
Yes. 

342
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,920
And why do we operate from that 
lens? 

343
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,599
Well, what's when you hear the 
language? 

344
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,240
So man, if I say, oh that 
behaviour of yours is really 

345
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,640
ineffective compared to that's 
bad, how does that land for you?

346
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,160
So 1 one feels like it comes 
with quite a bit of judgement 

347
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,640
and shame. 
And we're more likely to say I 

348
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,040
am bad, right? 
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. 

349
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,920
It's a really judge mental 
approach that puts the person in

350
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,800
in a position where we're 
morally we're morally judging. 

351
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,240
Them. 
So when we're saying a behaviour

352
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,680
is either effective or 
ineffective, we are targeting 

353
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,400
the behaviour, not the person. 
You as a person, you're fine. 

354
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,520
The behaviour, however, might be
really ineffective and that's 

355
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,720
the part that needs to change. 
So this allows us not to induce 

356
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,040
guilt and shame and allows us to
hold that DBT principle of 100% 

357
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,040
positive regard for the client 
at all times. 

358
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,320
Yeah, yeah, that dialectic of 
complete acceptance and change. 

359
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,280
Absolutely. 
So our behavioural support 

360
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,840
principle, so just to cover 
some, just some real sort of 

361
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,320
basic good practise stuff is, is
when we're working with someone,

362
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,280
we want to offer as much choice 
as possible. 

363
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,120
So we want to give people 
options rather than telling 

364
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,200
people this is what they need to
do. 

365
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,520
This is what the behaviour that 
they need to change. 

366
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,320
And this is how they need to 
change it. 

367
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,520
You know, we want to give people
a range, a range of options. 

368
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,440
Yeah. 
And at the same time, we want to

369
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,200
really understand what's 
triggering these behaviours. 

370
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,120
And we're not going to do that 
in this episode today because we

371
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,600
have done triggering before. 
And if you go back and look at 

372
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,160
that episode, there's trigger 
charts and all of that. 

373
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,280
And and that's this idea that 
behaviour doesn't just occur out

374
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,320
of the blue. 
Even if you know, and I have 

375
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,760
lots of clients right early on 
in therapy that go, it just 

376
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,120
happens. 
I don't know why I do it. 

377
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,520
There's no trigger. 
And I think it's a really, you 

378
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,880
know, I always say to those 
clients, there absolutely is a 

379
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:13,480
trigger. 
Yep. 

380
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,800
We just don't know what the 
trigger is. 

381
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,680
But it doesn't have to be an 
external stimulus. 

382
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,120
It can be a thought, it can be a
body sensation, it can be a 

383
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,120
smell. 
You know, we've gone through 

384
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,200
this in the in the trigger 
episode, but it's just 

385
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,840
acknowledging that there is 
always a trigger. 

386
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,080
You just don't know what it is. 
If you're saying that, yeah, 

387
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,240
that's right. 
And so we want to be teaching 

388
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,120
new behaviours to replace 
ineffective behaviours. 

389
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:45,040
One of the things that I find 
really unfair is when clinicians

390
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,800
or caregivers or teachers or 
like anyone basically when we 

391
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,400
say stop doing that behaviour, I
don't like that behaviour. 

392
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,560
That behaviour's bad. 
Now, apart from the huge 

393
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,400
judgement, the other thing 
that's not happening in here is 

394
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,240
we're not teaching anything new.
We're not teaching. 

395
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,200
Don't do that, do this instead. 
You know, we see this a lot with

396
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,520
self harm and suicidality, you 
know, with self harm. 

397
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,200
We have clients who'll be self 
harming and a lot of times 

398
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,360
people. 
Might say I don't like that self

399
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,280
harming, that self harming 
freaks me out, it makes me 

400
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,040
uncomfortable or I'm scared of 
it and I don't know what's 

401
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,280
happening here. 
I want you to stop it and stop 

402
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,840
it immediately. 
Now that's fine. 

403
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,360
But unless you then say do this 
instead, I'm gonna teach you 

404
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,480
something to do instead because 
the re. 

405
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,760
I understand the reason you're 
self harming is because you have

406
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,680
all this distress and you're an 
8 and above out of 10 and you're

407
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,880
completely overwhelmed and you 
just need to do something to 

408
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,760
feel better. 
So instead of self harming, how 

409
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,320
about I teach you a just stress 
tolerance skill? 

410
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,040
If you say just stop self 
harming and you don't give the 

411
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,440
new skill to me that's 
unethical. 

412
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,000
You're leaving the person with 
absolutely nothing to help 

413
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,320
themselves in a huge amount of 
distress. 

414
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,720
Yeah. 
And then what do we see happens 

415
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,400
is that client actually gets 
into a state of now they're not 

416
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,480
self harming, but they're 
suicidal. 

417
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,520
You know that we see an 
increased level of risk here, 

418
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,520
right? 
And we call it the behaviour 

419
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,680
avoid. 
I don't actually want to create 

420
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,200
a behavioural void where in that
time that they would be self 

421
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,640
harming, they're now just 
sitting there thinking about 

422
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,440
self harming and sitting with 
the stress that they don't know 

423
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,360
how to sit with. 
That is where we turn, you know,

424
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,960
a lower level risk into a much. 
Higher level risk, Great point. 

425
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,400
Because that person's going to 
become suicidal without the self

426
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,480
harm really, really quickly. 
Really. 

427
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,480
Really. 
Quickly. 

428
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,800
So you've got to replace the 
behavioural void. 

429
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,520
And so if you're, you're someone
listening, you have to identify 

430
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,320
for yourself, You know, what are
the strategies in that moment 

431
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,920
that helped me that I could use 
instead of Yeah. 

432
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,160
So if I'm not going to sit and 
drink 8 beers tonight, what am I

433
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,560
going to do instead? 
Because if the answer is I'm not

434
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,480
going to drink 8 beers tonight, 
but I'm just going to sit in 

435
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,840
front of the television and do 
nothing, you're going to start 

436
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,640
drinking those 8 beers pretty 
quickly because there's no new 

437
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,840
behaviour replacing the old 
behaviour. 

438
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,760
And again, we talk about these 
neural pathways. 

439
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,520
It is if you're in that 
environment at the time that you

440
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,800
would normally drink the beers. 
The brain is going to go, 

441
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,120
something's missing in here, and
it's going to be drawn to doing 

442
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:19,560
what it always does. 
The brain loves certainty, yeah.

443
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,640
So let's have a look at some 
strategies in DBT. 

444
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,600
We have this and we'll put these
works, these are Marshall 

445
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,040
Linehan's worksheets and we'll 
pop these up on on our website. 

446
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,240
Strategies for increasing the 
behaviours that you want. 

447
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,040
So sometimes when we're with 
someone, we want them to stop 

448
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,000
doing a certain behaviour or we 
want them to start doing this 

449
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,640
behaviour. 
So the way that I sort of always

450
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,160
explain this is the puppy dog 
analogy. 

451
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840
Yeah, there's one that everyone 
can kind of understand, right, 

452
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,240
Is that when you've got a brand 
new puppy and you are toilet 

453
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,400
training that puppy and the 
first time that that little 

454
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,960
gorgeous puppy does away on the 
grass, Maddie, what do you do? 

455
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,240
You praise it, you say good job,
you give it lots of parts. 

456
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,040
You increase your voice tone. 
You give it lots of love. 

457
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,320
You give it a treat. 
Yeah. 

458
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,360
And the puppy learns in that 
moment, the puppy's brain makes 

459
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,960
the next connection between the 
behaviour doing a we on the 

460
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,880
grass and the reward. 
Yeah. 

461
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,680
Often called in behaviour 
science, the reinforcement. 

462
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,400
Reinforcement. 
They both are words. 

463
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,720
They both mean the same thing. 
Our reward. 

464
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,760
I did a we on the grass. 
This human being is losing their

465
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,680
mind over the fact that I've 
just done a we on the grass and 

466
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,280
I'm getting all these traits and
I get this reward. 

467
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,480
Gee, I'm gonna do that again 
because I might get that reward.

468
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,600
And then the puppy weaves on the
grass again. 

469
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,120
And what happens, Maddie? 
We praise it again. 

470
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:46,560
And we're and that reinforces 
that reinforcement and the puppy

471
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,280
learns this is what I need to 
do. 

472
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,160
We reinforce the puppy for, you 
know, a couple of weeks and then

473
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,120
eventually the puppy knows to 
weigh on the grass and we can 

474
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,840
withdraw the the reward because 
the puppy has now has that as a 

475
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,680
learned behaviour. 
Human beings are exactly the 

476
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,520
same, right, Exactly right. 
And we're going to talk about 

477
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,800
punishment. 
But rather than punish people 

478
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,120
for behaviour that we don't want
to see, which is what human 

479
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:14,240
beings often do, we want to 
reward people when they are 

480
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,880
doing the right thing or the 
behaviour that we want to see. 

481
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,720
So we want to reverse that in in
child, you know, dealing with 

482
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,400
toddlers and children behaviour 
management stuff. 

483
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,880
You hear this? 
Catch the kid doing something 

484
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,360
right? 
Yes, and reward them and ignore 

485
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,360
the bad behaviour, right? 
The bad in inverted commas 

486
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,400
behaviour. 
And we do this right in our DBT 

487
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,160
groups, yes. 
Like this is something we 

488
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,480
actively do in our DBT groups, 
right? 

489
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,680
And again, coming from the 
principle of like everyone is 

490
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,560
doing the best they can in every
single moment. 

491
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,920
So you might have someone in the
corner that's not doing their 

492
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,160
homework or skill practise. 
You might have someone over 

493
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,680
there that's interrupting, you 
might have someone over there 

494
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,520
that's taking up all the time of
the group, you might have 

495
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,240
someone over there that's heads 
on the desk and they will, 

496
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,160
they're not engaging. 
And So what we initially do, and

497
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,560
again, there's, there's caveats 
to this, but ignore the 

498
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,440
behaviour that we don't want to 
see. 

499
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,200
So we completely ignore those. 
Unless it's a serious behaviour.

500
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,400
Unless, and again, these are 
some of the caveats, unless it's

501
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,400
a serious behaviour or risk 
taking behaviour or it's a 

502
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,280
behaviour that's going to, it's 
impacting the group cohesion, 

503
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,360
correct too much. 
Then when that behaviour starts 

504
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,360
to change or if we see a 
behaviour we want to see more 

505
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,320
of, so maybe there is skill 
practise and they hold back from

506
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,840
interrupting or they put their 
head up off the desk and start 

507
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,840
to engage, we are going to leap 
into validation. 

508
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,000
It is so nice to see your head 
up and you know such a great 

509
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,240
thing to say and I can see how 
hard you're working not to jump 

510
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,760
in an interrupt there. 
And God, I can see how hard 

511
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,680
you've worked in the last week. 
In a skill practise, we validate

512
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,360
that behaviour. 
And we're rewarded, right? 

513
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,040
And the reward could be just as 
something, as something from the

514
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,600
therapist or, you know, in real 
life. 

515
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,400
We'll, we'll talk about what 
rewards and reinforcements might

516
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,160
be. 
So there's two ways that you can

517
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,880
just going back to your point, 
which I think is excellent, is 

518
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,240
that when you're running a DBT 
group, you've got 10 people in 

519
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,360
the room with usually disorders 
like, you know, personality 

520
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:14,080
disorders like BPD, complex 
trauma. 

521
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,840
You're gonna say those people 
are in the room because they 

522
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,640
have a whole bunch of 
ineffective behaviours. 

523
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,400
And we can absolutely guarantee 
that we are going to see those 

524
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,680
ineffective behaviours in Group 
because that's why they're in 

525
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,800
therapy. 
To think that people won't show 

526
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,080
up and we won't see those 
behaviours is pretty ridiculous 

527
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,880
and naive. 
So in Group, in DBT group, yes, 

528
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,320
people are learning DBT skills. 
Yes. 

529
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,200
The other thing they're learning
is they're having their 

530
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,960
behaviours called out in a 
really gentle and way that they 

531
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,000
can hear it and taught 
alternatives to those behaviours

532
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,720
that are showing up in the. 
They realise if they're calling 

533
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,760
out in Group and interrupting 
everyone, guaranteed in their 

534
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,400
life outside of group, they're 
calling out and interrupting 

535
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,400
people, right? 
That behaviour that we see in 

536
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,080
Group, they're absolutely doing 
outside of group and often it's 

537
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,920
ineffective and really blowing 
up their lives into the life 

538
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,600
they want to live. 
So the kind thing is for us to 

539
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,840
say, are you noticing that 
you're interrupting? 

540
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760
Are you noticing when someone 
starts to talk, you're talking 

541
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,640
over the top, Are you even aware
of that? 

542
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,160
A lot of the time they're not 
even aware they're doing it. 

543
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,800
Yeah. 
And how does that make you feel 

544
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,960
knowing that that's your 
behaviour? 

545
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,880
And how do you think that's 
impacting others in the group 

546
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,640
having that conversation? 
So what would be an alternative 

547
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,120
to calling out in grip and then 
when the person starts doing the

548
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,800
new behaviour, reward, reward, 
reward, reward. 

549
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,640
Yeah, exactly. 
Exactly. 

550
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:44,320
So there's two types of rewards 
or reinforcements. 1 is called 

551
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,920
positive reinforcement and the 
other is called negative 

552
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,760
reinforcement. 
So think about people in your 

553
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,880
life, about maybe there's people
in your life where there's 

554
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,880
behaviours that you're maybe not
enjoying so much. 

555
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,000
But also think about your own 
behaviours that might be blowing

556
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,200
up your life. 
So positive reinforcement is 

557
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,600
introducing a positive outcome 
for doing the behaviour. 

558
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,920
So if you take the bins out, I 
say to my husband, if you take 

559
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,600
the bins out tonight, I'll give 
you a cherry right because he 

560
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,520
loves cherry rights. 
That's a positive reinforcement.

561
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,120
I'm giving him a positive 
reinforcer. 

562
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:22,760
Now the thing about rewards or 
reinforcements, they have to be 

563
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,400
designed to the individual 
because I hate cherry rights. 

564
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,440
Yeah, someone said to me, take 
the bins out and I'll give you a

565
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:30,480
cherry rock. 
I'm going to go. 

566
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,040
I'm not taking the bins out. 
I don't even. 

567
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,400
Know what's the point of that? 
Yeah. 

568
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,960
So what are some rewards, 
Maddie, that people can use that

569
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,880
in general, you know, some ideas
around rewards that show up that

570
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,400
people like to use to sort of 
reinforce people. 

571
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,240
We talk about a lot this a lot 
in Group. 

572
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:46,520
What do? 
What do we hear in Group with 

573
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,320
this one? 
Look, I think this is where we 

574
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,680
start to say, you know, what are
the things that we find joyful 

575
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,560
and fulfilling? 
But it might be. 

576
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,280
Yeah, something is I'll make a 
nice dinner. 

577
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,080
I'll cook dinner. 
I'll make your favourite 

578
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,800
lasagna. 
It might be let's go to the 

579
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,680
movies and spend some time 
together. 

580
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,120
Or, you know, if your kids go to
the playground or, you know, 

581
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,840
I'll buy you that craft that you
own from Kmart. 

582
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,720
I think for adults, Right. 
I think first class. 

583
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Plane tickets for me, for 
example, to Europe, that's a 

584
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,640
lovely reward. 
That's a wonderful reward for 

585
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,240
you, but it can be something you
know as adults, as simple as a 

586
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,920
just acknowledgement, a 
compliment. 

587
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,480
Just a thank you. 
Thank you can sometimes for a 

588
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,400
lot of us as adults, you know. 
It's it's all, yeah, just to be 

589
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,200
recognised, seen and 
acknowledged, validated and 

590
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,440
thanked. 
Yeah, exactly, exactly. 

591
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,280
So, you know, we really do have 
to cater this to the individual 

592
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,320
and and what they want. 
And I think there's no harm in 

593
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,600
asking what is it like you can 
ask. 

594
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,680
Yeah, yeah. 
If you don't know it, like if 

595
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,440
you know the person really well,
think about the rewards that 

596
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,800
that person would really enjoy, 
not the rewards you would enjoy.

597
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,960
I think sometimes people, oh, 
well, I'd really like that. 

598
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,240
So I'm going to give them that. 
Yeah. 

599
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,360
Well, maybe, maybe they like 
saying things that you do. 

600
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,440
Yeah. 
But it don't, you could actually

601
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,240
act like, you know, the classic 
one was someone said the other 

602
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,160
day, oh, do you want something 
about Taylor Swift tickets? 

603
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,120
And I thought that would be a 
punishment for me. 

604
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,080
I couldn't think of anything 
worse. 

605
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,080
People are going to come for you
with that statement. 

606
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,360
I know it. 
Looks like the Swift is you're. 

607
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,280
Everyone loves that 22 song. 
Yeah, I love Taylor Swift. 

608
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,960
I got a vibe. 
I don't know any Taylor Swift. 

609
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,480
I look good on her. 
She's doing great guns and I 

610
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,960
wish her all the best. 
But it's not my type of music. 

611
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,800
But if you gave me like, Iron 
Maiden tickets, I'd go, Oh my 

612
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,440
God, that's amazing. 
Thank you. 

613
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Right. 
Yeah, exactly. 

614
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Now, the other type of 
reinforcement is negative 

615
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,960
reinforcement. 
And this means you take some, if

616
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,040
they do the thing you want to do
or they change their behaviour, 

617
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,280
you take a negative consequence 
away from them. 

618
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,880
So. 
So if you take the bins out 

619
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,520
tonight, you don't have to go to
Nina and Sally's house tomorrow.

620
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,560
Yes, poor Aunt Sally. 
Yeah. 

621
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,840
Yep, because if they hate Aunt 
Sally, that's a reward for 

622
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,600
taking the bins out. 
But I'm not giving them 

623
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,720
something positive, I'm taking 
something negative away. 

624
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,000
Exactly, exactly. 
It might be something like you 

625
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,680
don't have to do the bins for 
the rest of the week, or you 

626
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,400
know, you don't have to make the
bed. 

627
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,960
Like you're taking something 
away from them that is perceive 

628
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,600
as a reward for them by not 
doing. 

629
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,720
That's right now with rewards 
and reinforces the other 

630
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,800
mistakes sometimes people can 
make is the reward has to be 

631
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,440
given immediately after the 
behaviour. 

632
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,600
Yeah, immediately. 
Otherwise, the brain doesn't 

633
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,040
make the connection right if 
the. 

634
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Puppy who weighs on the grass, 
if for the first time, if you 

635
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,920
say, well, I'm going to reward 
the puppy at the end of the week

636
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,320
after they've done a week of not
paying on the grass, that puppy 

637
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,520
will never learn to pay on the 
grass because it's weed on the 

638
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,040
grass. 
And there's been no positive 

639
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,360
learning experience. 
And as soon as the person gives 

640
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,000
you the behaviour that you want 
to see, your reward, your 

641
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,520
reward, your reward. 
You know, sometimes you'll see 

642
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,240
with kids with star charts, if 
you they, you know, by the end 

643
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,400
of the week, if you do all this,
then you get the reward. 

644
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,240
The behaviour doesn't change. 
Yeah, because the child's brain 

645
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,040
can't hold out. 
Yeah, for five to seven days and

646
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,160
doing this behaviour and over 
and over again with no reward. 

647
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,120
And neither can adults. 
Exactly, exactly. 

648
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,520
And I think there's two things 
can be true in this moment. 

649
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,360
It's like they need an immediate
reward and you can also show 

650
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,920
them long term rewards as well. 
Is that right? 

651
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,360
Now you've done great and you 
get a big tick. 

652
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,600
And here's a cherry, right? 
But look at your star chart, you

653
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:28,960
get another *. 
Yes. 

654
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,200
So you can give the star every 
day. 

655
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,000
There's the reward, the star, 
the star, the star, and then you

656
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600
can save up for the big reward 
as you suggested, yes. 

657
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,720
So reinforce all behaviours you 
want to occur immediately, 

658
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,520
making sure you're tailoring 
that reward to the individual 

659
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,280
and you are working really, 
really hard to catch the person 

660
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,800
doing the behaviours that you 
want. 

661
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,840
So if you have been on your 
partner for a whole week, take 

662
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,520
the bins out, for God's sake, 
take the bins out. 

663
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,280
Take the bins out and they 
haven't, and then out of the 

664
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,120
blue they take the bins out. 
You need to lay it on thick with

665
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,000
the reward, right? 
You need to celebrate that as if

666
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,360
they have just developed and 
discovered the cure for cancer. 

667
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,960
You don't get one chair right, 
You get the West rest of the 

668
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,760
world supply. 
Yeah. 

669
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,480
Now if it's a fairly simple 
behaviour that where there's 

670
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,960
only one or two steps, then that
process is usually works very 

671
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,280
well. 
But what about if it's a really 

672
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,840
complex behaviour? 
Like I need you to after dinner,

673
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,880
grab the plates, take them to 
the sink, wash them up, dry 

674
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,920
them, put them away and set the 
table for tomorrow. 

675
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,600
Complex, right, Multiple steps, 
multiple back. 

676
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,200
Well, there's multiple things we
have to do there for multiple 

677
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,200
behaviours, right? 
Yeah, so to. 

678
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,120
Just ask someone. 
So do all of that and then 

679
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,560
you'll get a reward when there's
multiple complex steps might not

680
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,640
be as effective. 
So what are we doing here? 

681
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,120
We're doing a behavioural 
principle called principle 

682
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,360
called shaping. 
So we break these complex steps 

683
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,480
down into manageable individual 
steps. 

684
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,639
So Step 1 might be take the 
after dinner, pick up the plates

685
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,040
and put them on the kitchen 
bench. 

686
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,960
They get a reward and after a 
week of doing that, then we, 

687
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,679
it's OK, this is in their brain.
They know how to do this. 

688
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,840
We can, they've learned this new
behaviour. 

689
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,960
Then we can say now in order to 
get that reward, you have to 

690
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,960
then do Step 2, take the plates 
to the sink, wash them up and 

691
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,800
now you get the reward. 
Maybe they do that for a week 

692
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,280
and then they've learned Step 2 
and then now you only get the 

693
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,159
reward when you've dried them, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

694
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,159
And then you extend the reward 
out into. 

695
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,199
They can do the whole complex 
behaviour that they want, that 

696
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,840
you want them to do, but they've
loaded in slow steps. 

697
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,639
We call that shaping behaviour. 
Exactly, exactly. 

698
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,040
We would also see this shaping 
behaviour really present in 

699
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,240
life. 
You've ever been, you know, in a

700
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:02,080
sporting team, so netball or 
rugby or whatever you play is 

701
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,440
that the coach won't jump into 
going, OK, we're going to learn 

702
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,240
this really complex kind of 
move. 

703
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,880
We're going to start actually by
standing still and throwing the 

704
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,280
ball back and forth. 
Now we're going to learn to pass

705
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,760
the ball while we're running. 
And now we're going to learn to 

706
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,240
pass the ball while we're 
running, while we're moving 

707
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,200
direction. 
We see this build up in sport, 

708
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,280
in any type of kind of practical
job. 

709
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,840
Look, playing an instrument, 
right start off playing Chopin's

710
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,400
Concerto. 
Right start off playing. 

711
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,520
Mary had a Little Lamb. 
Exactly, exactly. 

712
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,720
So we see this throughout time 
of this is how we learn. 

713
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,360
Yeah, so thinking about This is 
why some of my attempts to 

714
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,040
change my own behaviour or the 
behaviour of others maybe 

715
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,440
haven't been so successful. 
Have you been following these 

716
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,720
principles? 
Right. 

717
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,360
So once the person or you, if 
you're looking at changing your 

718
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,000
own behaviour, once you've 
succeeded in changing the 

719
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,560
behaviour, then you can 
gradually start to reward, 

720
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,320
withdraw the reward because you 
don't want to have to give the 

721
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,720
puppy a biscuit every single 
time it pees on the grass. 

722
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:12,240
For the rest of it, no. 
It's gonna it's gonna become a 

723
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,480
pretty unwell puppy with a big 
tummy. 

724
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,840
It's just gonna be also quite 
cute. 

725
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,360
Right. 
And, and you know, you don't 

726
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,560
want to have to do that all the 
time. 

727
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,040
Once the puppy's learnt to pee 
on the grass, they've learnt the

728
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:22,680
behaviour. 
Yeah. 

729
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,440
So then we can withdraw the 
reward and move to something the

730
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,240
the most powerful form of 
reinforcement, which is called 

731
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,320
intermittent reinforcement. 
Now poker. 

732
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,080
Machines just going to say, 
where else do we see this work 

733
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,000
really effective or ineffective 
way? 

734
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,480
Yeah. 
Poker machines use intermittent 

735
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,400
reinforcement, which is why 
they're so addictive. 

736
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,720
Yeah. 
So when you play a poker 

737
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,640
machine, you don't win money 
every single spin. 

738
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,360
Yeah, right. 
It's every 3rd, 6th, 8:10 to 

739
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,800
12:00. 
And then when you hear and 

740
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,840
there's lights go off and, and 
all this noise and carry on and 

741
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,680
you know, Ding, Ding, Ding, 
Ding, Ding, the brain 

742
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,800
experiences that as a reward and
floods the brain with dopamine. 

743
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,880
And so then the brain is going, 
when's that going to happen 

744
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,080
again? 
When's that going to happen 

745
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,400
again? 
It's 1. 

746
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,880
More time. 
One more time and I'll get my 

747
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,120
reward. 
One more time and I'll get my 

748
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,120
reward. 
Then I'll get that dopamine hit 

749
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,920
and I've just got to hang in 
there. 

750
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,120
And so when you're wanting to 
withdraw a reward, then you 

751
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,160
might only give the puppy a 
biscuit every second time that 

752
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,600
they pee on the grass and then 
moved to every third time or 

753
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,360
every sixth time. 
And basically the puppy learns 

754
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,200
I'd never know when the reward's
coming. 

755
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,960
So I've just got to keep doing 
the behaviour. 

756
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,640
And then you can withdraw the 
reward altogether once the the 

757
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,840
behaviour is well learnt and 
well established. 

758
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,280
Strictly. 
Exactly. 

759
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,280
And that's not something that's 
going to happen over a week or a

760
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,200
couple of weeks. 
How long does it usually take 

761
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,240
right? 
Depends on who it is, depends on

762
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:55,240
their own, on their own brain, 
and it depends on the complexity

763
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:56,680
of the behaviour. 
It's hard to know. 

764
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,840
The more simple the behaviour, 
the more they understand what's 

765
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,560
going on, the more the more 
powerful the reward, the quicker

766
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:04,800
the person's going to learn, 
right? 

767
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,120
Exactly, exactly. 
And I think the other thing is 

768
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,000
time. 
Yeah. 

769
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,840
So if you've got a really 
plastic brain, like a new puppy,

770
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,600
that's the brain is malleable, 
very what we would call there's 

771
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,840
a lot of brain plasticity. 
We might see the behaviour 

772
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,760
change. 
Whereas if this is a long term 

773
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,800
ingrained behaviour that's been 
present for 20-30, forty, 50-60 

774
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,720
years, it's much harder to 
change the behaviour. 

775
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,080
Correct. 
Not impossible, tough. 

776
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,080
Absolutely. 
The other really important 

777
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,240
principle is we only want to 
reinforce the behaviours that we

778
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,600
want to see. 
And again, I think the examples 

779
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,880
that we've already given are 
good ones, is sometimes we can 

780
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,000
accidentally reinforce the exact
behaviour we don't want. 

781
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,560
So sometimes people are going to
work really hard to get you to 

782
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,040
drop this, you know, this need 
for them to change their 

783
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,960
behaviour, right, that the 
little kid going through the the

784
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,360
checkout is going to put on a 
pretty big tantrum. 

785
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:03,920
Yeah, they're going to run a 
show. 

786
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,600
Yeah, and, and everyone's going 
to be looking and they're going 

787
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,200
to be on the floor kicking and 
screaming and you are going to 

788
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,600
just get embarrassed and 
overwhelmed. 

789
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,040
Oh, for God's sake, fine. 
And just give in. 

790
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,480
And as we've said, in that 
moment you have reinforced, 

791
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,680
you've done the opposite. 
You've reinforced and torched 

792
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,040
the child. 
The exact behaviour that you 

793
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,000
don't want to. 
Right. 

794
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,080
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

795
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,480
Same as what we do with with 
clients when they're going to 

796
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,400
the Ed. 
If we only give them support, 

797
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,240
help and compassion and care 
when they are acutely, acutely 

798
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,360
suicidal, they learn I need to 
be acutely suicidal in order to 

799
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,640
get care. 
So that's what I'll be. 

800
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,200
Yeah, exactly. 
Exactly. 

801
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,880
And we're not here to blame or 
shame or anything like that, but

802
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,480
we, we can, you know, absolutely
do this to reinforce the 

803
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,200
behaviours. 
And I think even if we are 

804
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,160
someone that's a bit of a people
pleaser, right, and we are 

805
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,040
conflict avoidant and doing 
everything we can to avoid 

806
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,760
conflict. 
You know, we can be more likely 

807
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,320
to kind of drop that long term 
goal for the short term goal of 

808
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,200
trying to escape an 
uncomfortable motion. 

809
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,400
That's right. 
You have to white knuckle it. 

810
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,600
You know, there's this concept 
of the extinction burst when you

811
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,520
know, every time you go through 
that checkout, if mum says right

812
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,800
this time I'm not going to give 
in. 

813
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,920
I'm sick of this behaviour. 
Every time we go through the 

814
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,000
checkout there's a tantrum. 
Just say mum wants to 

815
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,320
extinguish, get rid of that 
behaviour. 

816
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,680
Then the next time she goes 
through the checkout there's 

817
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,120
going to be the tantrum and mum 
or dad has to white knuckle it 

818
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,000
and ignore the tantrum the whole
way through and that needs to 

819
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,760
happen several times once they 
go through that check out. 

820
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,960
Exactly. 
Because you need the child to 

821
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,600
have new learning time for the 
child's brain to learn. 

822
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,160
I used to do this and that got 
me rewarded. 

823
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,560
That seems to have changed. 
I do this but I no longer get 

824
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,320
the reward and eventually the 
child will learn. 

825
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:58,760
Well, this behaviour is no 
longer effective. 

826
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,480
I'm going to stop doing it. 
But you have to white knuckle it

827
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,320
until that learning happens in 
the child's brain, Right? 

828
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,320
Exactly, exactly. 
And this is what happens with 

829
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,680
people. 
You know, Mads, I hear this all 

830
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,560
the time. 
I'm sure you do too, is when 

831
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,320
people are learning to put 
boundaries in place for the 

832
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,960
first time. 
Perhaps they haven't had great 

833
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,840
boundaries and other people in 
the person's life have really 

834
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,200
benefited from them not having 
boundaries. 

835
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,920
You know, they get what they 
want, you know, from that 

836
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,200
person, and suddenly you put a 
boundary in. 

837
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,040
At first, the people who have 
benefited from you not having 

838
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,280
any boundaries are going to hate
the fact that you are putting a 

839
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,040
boundary in place and they're 
going to do everything they can 

840
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,640
to get you to drop that 
boundary. 

841
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,520
Exactly. 
You know, I was just thinking of

842
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,480
that is that we this is where we
why a lot of the time we put 

843
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,960
boundaries, as you know, and 
Marsha did puts boundaries last 

844
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,440
in DBT because it's so 
distressing. 

845
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,680
And the people that have been 
around that need you to not have

846
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,480
boundaries because they get bad 
enough to do any work or 

847
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,280
housework or whatever it might 
be. 

848
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,440
Then when you set those 
boundaries in place, they're 

849
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,480
going to have that same 
response. 

850
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,720
They're going to escalate and 
escalate and escalate. 

851
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,480
And if you give in. 
What have you taught? 

852
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,000
You have just reinforced that 
behaviour and this is where we 

853
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,480
see is that some people around 
us that are benefiting from not 

854
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,800
having boundaries means we lose 
them. 

855
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,960
Yeah, that's right. 
And it might have to be that 

856
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,840
this person, you know, if I have
boundaries, this person might 

857
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,160
not be in my life anymore 
because they don't actually like

858
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,880
the boundary of me. 
Yeah, because they don't get out

859
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,640
of me what they want anymore. 
Exactly. 

860
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,880
Yeah, exactly. 
Okay, let's look at this concept

861
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,160
of punishment, because I think 
in our society punishment is 

862
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,520
still regularly occurring, 
physical punishment, verbal 

863
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,920
punishment, psychological and 
emotional punishment, and it is 

864
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,760
the least effective way to 
change behaviour. 

865
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,760
Yeah, and that's not just us 
saying. 

866
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,600
That that's. 
The evidence, like that's the 

867
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,040
research, right? 
And a lot of us can get quite 

868
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,240
confused between punishment and 
a negative reinforcement, can't 

869
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:02,960
we? 
Like, we can go, OK, negative 

870
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,240
reinforcement is punishment and 
they're actually different 

871
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:06,760
things. 
Not a lot of people would kind 

872
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,360
of recognise that, right? 
Yet remember, negative 

873
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,960
reinforcement is taking 
something negative, a negative 

874
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,520
consequence away, which is. 
Like a reward. 

875
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,200
You know, whereas punishment is 
you're giving the person a 

876
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,720
negative consequence for doing 
the behaviour. 

877
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,360
You know, I see this all the 
time, particularly on social 

878
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,600
media where people say kids 
today, they're out of control. 

879
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,440
You know, we got E bike problem 
in Australia, huge E bike 

880
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,120
problem where we got kids from 
basically probably about 10 to 

881
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,120
16 forming these little E bike 
gangs and creating chaos on the 

882
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,360
road and driving everyone. 
Race and it's very dangerous 

883
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,600
because we're seeing a lot of 
injuries in the Ed from E box. 

884
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,720
That's right. 
And when you see this on social 

885
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,000
media, the commentary is, are 
these little shits? 

886
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,960
Yeah, I remember we were all 
kids once. 

887
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,840
And I, you know, I know I was a 
little shit. 

888
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,320
Some of us did a lot worse than 
an E bike. 

889
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,200
That's. 
Right, these, these little shits

890
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,880
and I know they're dangerous and
all the rest. 

891
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,000
I see both sides. 
I'm not trying to minimise it or

892
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,400
say these kids aren't out of 
control so don't get on social 

893
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,560
media, have a go. 
But it's weird, you know, I 

894
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,560
definitely do see both sides. 
But the commentary is these kids

895
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,080
should be their bikes should be 
taken off, then they should be 

896
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,680
crashed. 
They need a good whack. 

897
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,320
I was whacked as a kid and 
there's nothing wrong with me. 

898
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,600
I'm something. 
If you were whacked as a kid and

899
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,200
you think there's nothing wrong 
with you, then perhaps, you 

900
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,440
know, maybe maybe that's some 
time for. 

901
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,840
A question then, yeah. 
Yeah, we know punishment doesn't

902
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,640
work. 
We like to think it works, yeah,

903
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,400
but it doesn't. 
Absolutely doesn't. 

904
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,840
And you know what does 
punishment look like? 

905
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,160
Yeah, it's the smack. 
It's rather than validating and,

906
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,520
you know, giving the puppy a 
treat when it does pee in the 

907
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,400
right place. 
It's smacking it when it pees on

908
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,800
the rug inside. 
And what the problem with 

909
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,280
punishment is right there? 
You don't teach anything new if 

910
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,760
you smack. 
If you never reward the puppy 

911
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,920
for peeing on the grass and 
teaching it how to do that, when

912
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,440
you only punish the puppy for 
peeing on the rug, then the 

913
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,280
puppy never learns what it's 
supposed to do because you're 

914
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,440
only punishing. 
You're not teaching anything 

915
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,320
new. 
And that's the problem with 

916
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,800
punishment. 
Exactly because the puppy might 

917
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,560
not pee in that same spot again,
so. 

918
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,280
But it might pay now. 
In the kitchen. 

919
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,880
In the kitchen and somewhere 
else. 

920
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,760
So you're right, it's not 
learning anything new, it's not 

921
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,000
reforming or transforming new 
behaviour. 

922
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,680
It's just causing a lot of pain 
and confusion, you know, because

923
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,600
a lot of the time we don't 
really know, like for most 

924
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,080
people, the ineffective 
behaviours, we don't quite 

925
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,280
understand or haven't explored 
why we're doing those. 

926
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,760
That's right. 
OK, so you want to stop me from 

927
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,080
self harming, but this is the 
only thing that helps me, and 

928
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,200
you're telling me I'm not 
allowed to do that anymore? 

929
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,880
You haven't shown me another 
skill. 

930
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,960
Yeah. 
And I'm kind of just left here 

931
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,120
in my own distress. 
Yeah, yeah, it's cruel. 

932
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,640
It's cruel, absolutely. 
It's absolutely cruel. 

933
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,600
You know, I think the same can 
happen in regards to risk in 

934
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,920
hospitals and these types of 
settings as people come in 

935
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:03,440
seeking support and we can 
potentially put a hold on them 

936
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,800
and where they can't leave the 
hospital and then put them in 

937
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,720
the mental health unit where 
they just stay there and they 

938
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:10,120
don't get any therapy and they 
might not get much validation. 

939
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,280
And then when their suds have 
gone down, we say good to go. 

940
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,160
And nothing's changed. 
Nothing has. 

941
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,600
Changed, no new behaviour. 
All we've done is wait for the 

942
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,160
crisis to be over and round and 
round and round. 

943
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,880
We're not focused on changing 
behaviour. 

944
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,000
The other reason punishment 
doesn't work is that's when 

945
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,200
someone punishes you. 
How do you feel towards them? 

946
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,360
We do not feel good towards 
them. 

947
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,920
We don't see them as a safe 
person and and you know, we can 

948
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,440
have feelings of anger or fear 
towards them, right? 

949
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,880
Yeah. 
I think when there's for 

950
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,840
something, when there's anger 
towards them, that can increase 

951
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,720
the behaviour. 
Right, That's right. 

952
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,880
All it does is change the way 
you feel about the punisher, and

953
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,120
also it pushes the behaviour 
underground. 

954
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,040
Yeah. 
So the person thinks the 

955
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,920
behaviour has changed. 
I punish that person. 

956
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,720
They're no longer doing that. 
When in fact the person is now 

957
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,320
just hiding that behaviour, 
pushing it underground, sneaking

958
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,400
and lying about their behaviour 
and nothing thing has changed. 

959
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,760
And then the person feels even 
worse about themselves. 

960
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,960
Yeah, exactly, exactly. 
And then, you know, again, puts 

961
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,000
us more at risk, especially if 
they're our caregiver ride, if 

962
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,800
our behaviour is going 
underground and they're not a 

963
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,720
safe person is that we then can 
move to the safety risks. 

964
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,800
Absolutely. 
So if we're not going to punish 

965
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,280
what you know, then what we want
to do is allow the person to 

966
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,040
experience the natural 
consequences of their behaviour 

967
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,600
and discuss that in a 
compassionate ways. 

968
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:37,760
Yes, we want to reward them and 
notice when they're doing the 

969
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,720
behaviours that we want, but if 
they are continuing to do 

970
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,320
behaviours that are effective, 
we want the person to be able to

971
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,800
experience what we call the 
natural consequences of that 

972
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,040
behaviour. 
And example the natural 

973
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,280
consequences. 
Of that power if you're shocked 

974
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,400
always shocking when they. 
Dare they? 

975
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,520
How? 
Dare they say a classic example 

976
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,280
might be so someone who is 
acutely suicidal, who takes an 

977
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,600
overdose of medication, for 
example, they end up in hospital

978
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,040
and then they're in hospital and
they don't want to be in 

979
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,200
hospital and they're kicking and
screaming, let me out. 

980
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,800
I don't want an involuntary 
admission. 

981
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,840
I want to go home, you know, 
blah, blah, blah. 

982
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,800
Now part of that. 
And then they'll oftentimes I 

983
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,560
might get a phone call saying, 
Rachel, can you tell them that 

984
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,640
you're my therapist and just 
I'll be OK and to let me go, go 

985
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,520
home. 
And unfortunately, well, not 

986
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,360
unfortunately, maybe 
unfortunately, but for them. 

987
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
But the way that I would manage 
that is saying this is you 

988
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,280
experiencing the natural 
consequences of your behaviour, 

989
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,000
right? 
You took an overdose. 

990
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,080
I understand why you took that 
overdose. 

991
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,440
And I can be compassionate and 
I'm not blaming you. 

992
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,840
And you were super distressed 
and you know, ABS, I understand 

993
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,800
all of that. 
But every behaviour has a 

994
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,600
consequence. 
And on this occasion, the 

995
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,080
behaviour is that you have been 
scheduled against your will into

996
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,440
hospitals. 
I'm not gonna rescue front you 

997
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,440
from that. 
I'm going to allow you to 

998
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,400
experience that consequence and 
also rescue yourself. 

999
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,640
You have a whole bunch of DBT 
skills you can use in this 

1000
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,480
moment. 
Interpersonal skills, hopefully.

1001
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,360
But you know, if they don't have
those skills, I might, you know,

1002
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:08,680
think about it a bit 
differently. 

1003
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,560
You've got D man. 
You can negotiate with the 

1004
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,320
doctor. 
You can negotiate with the 

1005
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,400
health professionals about 
whether that admission is going 

1006
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,920
to be helpful for you or not. 
Another example I had recently 

1007
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,760
is client was saying what their 
plans for the weekend, I'm going

1008
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,400
to go on the weekend, I'm going 
to get smashed, I'm going to 

1009
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,640
drive up to such and such and 
I'm going to this partner, ex 

1010
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,280
partner of theirs, which you 
know, isn't particularly great 

1011
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,400
for them and they're going to 
have basically a very 

1012
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,920
ineffective weekend. 
So we talked about in session 

1013
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,280
the pros and the cons and the 
consequences and what that might

1014
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,600
happen. 
And I'm of course never told the

1015
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,320
client what to do. 
I said, I wonder what you'll do 

1016
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:43,840
this weekend. 
I'll leave it to you. 

1017
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,720
You seem to have a really good 
understanding of what the 

1018
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:49,560
behaviours are and the pros and 
cons and the potential outcomes.

1019
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,640
So the person did go away for 
the weekend and they did do some

1020
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,280
ineffective behaviour. 
And part of that ineffective 

1021
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,480
behaviour was they got caught 
drunk driving. 

1022
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,920
And they came back to session 
and said, would you write me a 

1023
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:03,240
letter for court, for the judge 
saying that I have mental health

1024
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:06,040
challenges with it? 
And I said no, I won't. 

1025
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,240
And they sort of looked at me 
quite shocked because, you know,

1026
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,480
therapists are supposed to be 
these compassionate, caring 

1027
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,000
people. 
I said you were, we sat here and

1028
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,280
discussed in session and you 
were very aware that that was a 

1029
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,600
potential consequence. 
And I'm going to allow you to 

1030
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,600
experience the natural 
consequences of your behaviour. 

1031
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,360
Not because I want want to see 
you suffer. 

1032
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,360
Not because I want to see you 
have to go. 

1033
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:26,240
This isn't. 
Punishment. 

1034
00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:29,320
This isn't punishment, this is 
just saying you did. 

1035
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,960
This was a behaviour, you made a
choice and now you're going to 

1036
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,560
experience those consequences 
and I'll be there to support you

1037
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,160
the whole way through this 
process. 

1038
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,360
Because it will be distressing, 
you'll be overwhelmed, and 

1039
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,520
you'll have to. 
You'll probably be in financial 

1040
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,440
distress. 
I'll support you through that, 

1041
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,960
but I won't save you. 
Because what happens if I do 

1042
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,920
write the letter Mads? 
What does the person learn in 

1043
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:47,960
that moment? 
We are. 

1044
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,760
Reinforcing the behaviour. 
Yeah, and I'm saying I will save

1045
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,480
you and rescue you. 
It doesn't matter what you do, 

1046
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:54,840
someone will come along and save
you. 

1047
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,160
And that's not how the world 
works. 

1048
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,680
So sometimes some of the kindest
things we can do is not to 

1049
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,840
punish, but to say here's the 
behaviour and here are the 

1050
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,720
consequences. 
Exactly. 

1051
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,640
Let's. 
Exactly what you walk through 

1052
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,840
those consequences rather than 
take them off you. 

1053
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,280
Yeah. 
And for the clinicians 

1054
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,840
listening, right, this isn't to,
you know, we ourselves as 

1055
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,400
therapists can have ineffective 
behaviours that we think are 

1056
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,480
helping but actually harming. 
And this can be one of them, 

1057
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,440
right? 
Jumping into rescue and save our

1058
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,200
clients. 
And that in itself is so 

1059
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,040
ineffective and takes the choice
out of Sometimes people actively

1060
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,640
choose to be ineffective, and 
that's completely fine, but they

1061
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,000
have to experience the 
consequence of their actions, 

1062
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,640
and we all do. 
We all do. 

1063
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,120
I do, I choose to do an 
effective thing sometimes 

1064
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,200
absolutely. 
And there are consequences that 

1065
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,280
I have to accept as part of 
that. 

1066
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,280
So just in summary, thinking 
about your, if it's a behaviour 

1067
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,840
you want to change of your own, 
thinking about how are you going

1068
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,840
to reinforce yourself when you 
do manage to change your 

1069
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,400
behaviour and you notice, wow, I
did that to the instead of self 

1070
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,360
harming, I used a DBT skill or I
didn't have a drink and I phoned

1071
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,800
a friend and said reinforce 
yourself immediately in that 

1072
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,080
moment and have a list of 
rewards and reinforces ready to 

1073
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,800
go. 
Thinking about those more 

1074
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,840
complex behaviours, how you can 
shape your own behaviour and 

1075
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,240
stop punishing yourself. 
Because our clients are really 

1076
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,040
good at punishing themselves 
too, right? 

1077
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,160
Absolutely, ABS don't pull the 
bat out the bat and beat 

1078
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,640
yourself of up with criticism 
and anger and you know, yeah, 

1079
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040
shame and punishment because we 
know it doesn't work. 

1080
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,560
So if the commitment is changed,
then we also have to change that

1081
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,480
behaviour of punishment. 
Yeah, that's right. 

1082
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,440
And if you're wanting to change 
the behaviours of others, 

1083
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,320
thinking about how you can apply
these principles to you 

1084
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,560
reinforcing behaviours that you 
actually trying desperately to 

1085
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,640
extinguish because the person's 
making you feel so 

1086
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,720
uncomfortable, you just unable 
to white knuckle it and you're 

1087
00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:54,920
giving in and reinforcing 
ineffective behaviours. 

1088
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,840
Are you rewarding people 
effectively using positive or 

1089
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,440
negative reinforcement? 
Are you removing punishment? 

1090
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,400
Now this is all learning theory,
learning and behavioural theory.

1091
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,680
Exactly. 
Exactly. 

1092
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,800
OK, so if you like today's 
episode and you were wanting 

1093
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,320
more and more and more, we have 
a bonus episode on our Patreon 

1094
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,920
account for subscribers. 
So jump on there for extra 

1095
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,560
episodes, extra resources that 
we're providing. 

1096
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,760
And if you're not not sure how 
to access that, that link is on 

1097
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,160
our website at 
wisemindcollective.com dot AU, 

1098
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,200
and our Patreon link is on there
to sign up and get all that 

1099
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,760
bonus content. 
And this week, our bonus content

1100
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,280
will be obviously tied into this
episode. 

1101
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,200
I have an example of a positive 
behavioural support tool, so 

1102
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,480
I'll pop that on there. 
So that's a tool that you can 

1103
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,080
use for yourself in regards to 
this idea of instead of, you 

1104
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,440
know, bad behaviour, negative 
behaviour, focusing on positive 

1105
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,160
behaviour. 
So we'll have a look at that. 

1106
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,600
And also if you're a clinician 
or if you are in a DBT group 

1107
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,760
yourself or thinking about going
into a DBT group. 

1108
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,080
I also have something that I use
in Group or Maddie and I are 

1109
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,760
using group together. 
It's called a give contract 

1110
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,880
that. 
So going back to those give 

1111
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,480
skills, if you haven't listened 
to that episode, go and have a 

1112
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,680
look at that is that if there 
are some ineffective behaviours 

1113
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,840
in Group and we want to talk to 
someone around those ineffective

1114
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,960
behaviours that are showing up 
in groups, helping them do that 

1115
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,360
with a give contract, which is 
this idea of helping them change

1116
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:25,720
their behaviour in the group 
setting. 

1117
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:29,000
So those will be our two bonus 
contents for this week. 

1118
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,800
Awesome. 
And again, if you are wanting to

1119
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,400
join our ten week DBT group, 
please jump on our website 

1120
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,280
wisemindcollective.com dot AU 
and our registration. 

1121
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,760
The link is on there, but we 
will see you next episode for 

1122
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,240
more content in DBT. 
But we are signing off Bye. 

1123
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:58,400
Bye. 
Thank you for joining us for 

1124
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,000
another episode of the Wise Mind
DVT Podcast. 

1125
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,160
If you have thoughts or 
questions or any feedback, 

1126
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:11,880
please email us anytime at 
wiseminddvtpodcast@gmail.com. 

1127
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:16,200
If you or someone you know is in
immediate danger or crisis, 

1128
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,040
please seek professional help or
contact emergency services in 

1129
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,280
Australia. 
This is triple O. 

1130
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:25,640
Until next time, keep showing 
up, keep practising. 

1131
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,960
Keep your wise mind with Rach 
Modfle signing off.