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You know, there are multiple 
ways to start an episode. 

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And of course when I think of 
bringing out a new episode, the 

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whole idea is to try and make it
exciting, Try and make it very 

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enriching for the audiences, get
them captivated from the word 

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go. 
I mean, all of these marketing 

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strategies and everything that's
out there on Internet, how to 

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how to make your podcast 
successful, how to make an 

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episode really do well. 
How to choose up your guests. 

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And like, there are multiple 
algorithms to do things right. 

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But there's one algorithm to do 
things right which has kind of 

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been there since ages, and that 
is by speaking out the truth, 

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unfiltered and unhindered. 
Information sharing has always 

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won the day. 
And this episode is a perfect 

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example of how having a heartful
conversation, a conversation 

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without limits, can add so much 
value to the topic that you're 

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discussing. 
And what gives me pure joy about

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this one is that it comes 
straight from within the person 

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who is basically running the 
show for when it comes to racing

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paragliders. 
Today we're going to have a chat

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with Goran Dimaskovski. 
The. 

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President of Paragliding World 
Cup Association. 

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So today, Goran and I basically 
sit together and talk about what

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goes behind the scenes and what 
allows us as humans to fly 

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together in numbers. 
And not just in numbers, like in

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multiples of hundreds, sometimes
all together, pushing the 

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limits, pushing the speed bars, 
chasing the glory and trying to 

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get on the podium. 
But honestly, if you ask me, I'm

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not that experienced in 
podcasting just yet, but from 

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whatever I've had, I'm yet to 
come across a guest so open and 

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so bold and so truthful about 
whatever he's bringing on the 

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table. 
So without further ado, I'm not 

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going to spill any beans here. 
This one is a gem that you 

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shouldn't be missing if you are 
like me and you like racing 

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paragliders up high in the sky. 
When we all start our quest to 

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touch the sky with glory, I have
to bring out a disclaimer here. 

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Not the best audio quality 
because of some technical 

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glitches, but hands down one of 
the best contents out there that

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I've made so far. 
Keeping in tune with our plans 

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of covering PWCS. 
This is episode #3. 

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The first one was the first time
ever pre World Cup organized in 

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a new location in India other 
than beer. 

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The second one we went all the 
way to the continent of Africa 

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where one of the most amazing 
tour guides in our sport had 

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organized a pre World Cup in 
Kenya. 

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Wings Among Wildlife was a theme
of that one, and Nikolai told us

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how to navigate the skies of 
Kenya while enjoying the usual 

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safari and the holiday. 
And this time we keep it simple.

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We get to find out all that you 
need to know on what goes behind

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running the show and how and why
we should stay excited about 

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what's coming. 
Talking about staying excited, I

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must mention the next episode in
the series of paragliding World 

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Cup is going to come from a 
pilot who has pushed the limits 

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for as long as she knows it. 
And she comes across to share 

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her stories about how she 
navigated life and yet managed 

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to build a successful carrier 
racing paragliders. 

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And with that being said, it's 
time to tune in and share some 

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knowledge in the world of 
paragliding world. 

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CUPS. 
Gordon Deniskowski, thank you so

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much for doing this. 
Welcome to paragliding apps. 

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We're so happy to have you here.
Pleasure is all mine, as usual. 

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All right. 
Go on. 

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So just for our audiences, you 
know, what do you do and why do 

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you do it? 
Well, running the World Cup is 

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quite interesting thing to do in
life because it's kind of a 

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small escape from the reality. 
But on the other hand, diving 

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into parallel reality I can see 
because with the development of 

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the sport, running the sport 
association and being in the 

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focal point of all happenings is
paragliding basically is getting

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a very serious activity covering
many aspects of day-to-day life 

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and covering many 
responsibilities. 

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Because what we are doing now is
reflecting on thousands of 

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people. 
In the early days it was not 

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that complex, but I can say that
these days what we are doing is 

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moving literally tons of people 
around the globe. 

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All the financial 
responsibilities, all the safety

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responsibilities, all the sport 
responsibilities, everything is 

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so complex that yeah, it's 
getting a serious activity and a

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job. 
I can imagine. 

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I mean you're making hundreds of
human fly together and and not 

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just fly like you race together.
It sounds very exciting and I 

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can only imagine the amount of 
responsibility you have your 

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hands. 
But Goran, if I have to you 

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know, give our listeners some 
idea if you can tell a little 

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bit about yourself because we 
see that you are one of the 

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longest serving presidents of 
PWCA. 

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So how did this aspect come into
your life and basically how did 

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you grow into and yourself along
the the association into into 

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something as successful as this?
Well, that was not so exciting 

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story. 
It's fairly regular life path. 

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Let's say I was starting to fly 
quite early in the 90s, early 

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90s. 
My first flight was in 91, but 

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really starting to get some 
knowledge and some progress in 

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92 and quite interesting in this
sport, competition was alive 

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from day one. 
Even those days with all these 

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first attempts in the late 80s 
and a little bit in the 

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beginning of the 90s. 
It was not something that cooked

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for too long before competitions
got into the focal point. 

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It they became the place when 
you can really materialize your 

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dream of flying. 
Competitions were the place when

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you can learn, when you can see 
the latest advancement, when you

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have these stars, 5 stars all 
over the place. 

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So early in my days, my focus on
flying. 

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I was competitive by myself by 
those days anyway, because I 

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grew up in aviation. 
I was very lucky to start quite 

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in my early childhood days with 
the Missionary Club in Macedonia

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country. 
It was very vivid organization 

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with many activities. 
That was maybe the golden era of

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aero clubs worldwide. 
With all the financements from 

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the state, with all the support,
it was fairly attractive for 

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everyone. 
So I went to aero modeling, then

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a little bit of parachuting, 
tailplays, motor flying, all 

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sorts of flying and then finally
paragliding became something 

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that is so independent and very 
attractive to me. 

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And I said I was competing 
already in some of previous 

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sports. 
So it was a natural way for me 

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to to be interested in comps and
even those days paragliding 

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World Cup at that age was most 
advanced. 

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The people being involved, they 
were the ones. 

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So it was not some kind of bunch
of Renegades improvising 

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something that was more 
attributed to the to the FBI 

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those days because if they were,
they were applying the concept 

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of what they learned from the 
other comps. 

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It was over regulated. 
It was not focused on the pilot 

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himself. 
It was a much wider focus on 

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national collapse, on glory, on 
ceremonies, on flags. 

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Trying to sell this popularity 
to the world Paranoid Cup did 

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something totally different. 
It was focused on the pilot, 

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which was me in my own eyes. 
It was the place to be when you 

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can really materialize your 
dreams and since 94, very early 

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I became a a member of World Cup
but it was just a not really 

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vital but by today's standard it
could be vital because I've 

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never attended the World Cup. 
I have never been there, but I 

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was a member. 
You know, you pay a fee and you 

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have all these materials coming 
to you and step by step, step by

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step by step. 
In 99 I I joined my first World 

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Cup in in in Slovenia. 
One of the best parts of those 

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days when March is to organize 
that one, we were accepted and 

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refused in the last moment 
because it was overbooked. 

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So it was a big disappointment 
and that's how it started. 

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So my attraction to World Cup 
was basically because it was a 

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true competition structure that 
I was looking into. 

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Wow. 
You know this reminds me very 

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simply of the of the saying 
where there's a builders from 

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what I see three decades of 
experience you have definitely 

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chosen the right path and come 
so far and of course are helping

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us show, I mean showing the 
light for all of us to to you 

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know go out and chase the glory 
ourselves. 

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Goran, just out of curiosity 
when you say that you know PWCA 

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was more pilot focused and it 
was more like you know 

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performance focus rather than 
adding on to the glamour and all

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of that what what does a typical
day at PWCA look like? 

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I mean, I'm not saying of course
it changes as the seasons and 

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times, but usually what is the 
direction of this association 

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like how do you guys plan out 
your workings and what keeps you

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guys busy? 
You know, World Cup is a kind of

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pilots association. 
So it's by it's the tutor, by 

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its mortality of existence, it's
fairly loose organization, you 

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know, so you have members that 
are collected around common idea

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and it's a French based 
association. 

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The French law is very liberal. 
It's updating quite early 19/03,

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so it's not a century old. 
So this frame is giving us an 

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opportunity to act in a quite 
flexible manner and that is 

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reflecting in the day by day 
work and how we are doing it. 

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So what what is typical for us 
is that in in the widest frame 

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we are collecting the input from
the competing pilots through the

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system selection. 
We have a direct exposure to the

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best pilots in the world. 
So over the season, over the 

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years, doesn't matter. 
You're collecting all these 

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official, unofficial, all sorts 
of input and you are structuring

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them within the internal 
steering body that we have, 

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which is the part of the world 
committee. 

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This is a structure that can be 
up to 13 people. 

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In this moment we are 10. 
This is international based, of 

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course. 
There are people from all over 

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the world, from Argentina to 
United States to Switzerland. 

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Doesn't matter. 
Diversity, basically. 

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00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:08,040
Yes, here's diversity. 
Diversity, also in the terms of 

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background, All of us are pilots
and all of us went through 

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serious challenges competition 
wise. 

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But some of us are organizers. 
Some of us are more, let's say, 

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administrators. 
Some of us are just pure 

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00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,360
competition pilots, Plenty of 
profiles. 

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So one typical day is based on 
communication in between me 

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because I'm also doing the event
management from being a 

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President of the World Cup. 
So I have the global vision of 

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00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,400
the near term future as well as 
the long term future. 

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By near term, future is 
something that is going about 

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three years ahead. 
And by long term future is 

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something that is going about, 
say five to six years upfront. 

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00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,000
So you know, on my daily, in my 
daily work, I'm communicating. 

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The greatest amount of 
communication is going with our 

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secretary, Laura Seppet. 
Miss Miss Laura Seppet, yes, 

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00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:09,080
she's our main administrator. 
She's doing all the work related

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00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,840
to to selections, to related to 
payments, to organizing, 

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00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,120
communication with the pilots. 
Well, on my side I'm doing 

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00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,800
something different. 
I am more into envisioning the 

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00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,840
season direct negotiations with 
organizers. 

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00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,480
Selecting them, provided them 
with the basic info, providing 

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00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,640
them with all the requirements 
that we need or what they should

200
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,360
ask from us, You know, this kind
of thing. 

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00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,720
So this is like a global 
picture. 

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00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,960
On the, On the more practical 
note, it's about 3:00 to 4:00 

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working hours per day for me, a 
little bit more if not much more

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00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,320
for for Laura, for our 
secretary, because she needs to 

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00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,560
process what I just throw to her
and then all, all of the system 

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00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,760
is, you know, very transparent. 
We shared with this World Cup 

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committee, as I said, for some 
kind of final approval or for 

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00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,960
some kind of synchronizing if 
needed. 

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00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:09,840
And it goes like that day by 
day. 

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00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,360
So it's quite never ending 
story. 

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00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,800
I can imagine, and it makes me 
want to thank you again for 

212
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,000
taking time from such hectic 
schedule and sharing the story 

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00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,600
with our listeners. 
That does mean a lot to us. 

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00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,200
Just want to mention it again, 
moving on. 

215
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,800
You know, I've heard this from a
lot of pilots like competing is 

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00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:36,120
is kind of a human trait. 
Like we, we like competing and 

217
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,120
even before PWCA came into 
existence, there were some 

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00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,720
modalities in place which which 
allowed people to race and 

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00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,000
compete inside in the air. 
I'm just curious what basically 

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was the need to to to create the
existence of considering that 

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00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,680
there were already options. 
Why? 

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00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,360
Why did we? 
A lot of pilots who really want 

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00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,480
to push felt like creating PWCA 
and making it happen. 

224
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,600
You know, this is an interesting
story, but nothing sensational, 

225
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,920
basically. 
Just kind of it's, it's kind of 

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00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,120
let's say a needed evolution 
that came through revolution. 

227
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,960
I mean this is the the simplest 
definition here. 

228
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920
So that was something that was 
truly needed, but it was not 

229
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,440
happening, you know, and I 
already mentioned that in the 

230
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,800
beginning and the problem is 
that in the beginning of the 

231
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:34,000
sport World Cup was kind of 
missing or it was somehow in the

232
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,320
air because you know this 
impulse to create it was 

233
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,720
generated in the Central 
European countries, in the in 

234
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,560
the developed countries from 
like Switzerland, Italy, 

235
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,400
Germany, these kind of of 
places, they have a a strong 

236
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,800
sports structure anyway. 
So it was like a natural 

237
00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,000
development for somebody 
practicing the the sport to have

238
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,120
this will or to have this aim to
practice the sport in a in a 

239
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,680
well organized structure. 
So this is nothing to do with 

240
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,000
paragliding particularly. 
This is just a way of thinking 

241
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,320
and way how whoever is dedicated
enough to certain activity would

242
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,920
like to perceive himself. 
So this needs to be seen as a 

243
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,400
true sport is doing something in
the in the in a real structure 

244
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,040
which is well organized which is
on the topic which is not this 

245
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,720
this focused let's say with some
kind of trivial non necessary 

246
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,040
things was very alive among 
people in those days. 

247
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,800
So the the generation of stars 
that we know these days like I 

248
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,080
don't know Hediger or all these 
people from other days post 

249
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,560
calls made plenty of them 
including Mr. Jean. 

250
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,320
Plenty plenty of people. 
French guys Olivia Neff all 

251
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,680
these guys you know they were 
around here with some others of 

252
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,040
course that maybe they're not 
coming to my mind. 

253
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,080
So these people were just 
somehow unsatisfied with the 

254
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,440
with the way how sport is 
presented, practiced and 

255
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,880
organized. 
So it was like a small push 

256
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:13,400
within this pilot group with 
this let's say well educated or 

257
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,400
or well motivated pilot to those
days to create a structure that 

258
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,440
will be truly dealing on a on a 
simple professional enough 

259
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,160
focused way with the execution 
of having competitions. 

260
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,680
So that's how it started. 
So it started in these few 

261
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,480
countries. 
It was not really let's say 

262
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,880
super successful in the 
beginning the the, the, the 

263
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,200
environment and the motivation 
was on the high level since day 

264
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,480
one. 
But of course the tools, the 

265
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,840
knowledge, the way how, for 
example the the way how they 

266
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,280
choose places, the way how they 
choose. 

267
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,760
Organizers would be, let's say 
questioned these days like for 

268
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,240
example, like say it's a kind of
dark spot in history. 

269
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,920
Is that even on the first year 
of doing this professional 

270
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,760
super, they had the fatality 
unit, they went to Owens Valley,

271
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:06,560
which was the final of this 
unit. 

272
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,960
It was the most important event.
But choosing such a place for 

273
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,960
final in those days, with those 
wings, with those known pilots, 

274
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,440
every bit of knowledge was over 
optimistic. 

275
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,040
It was, I don't know exactly, 
but I believe it was a 

276
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,520
reflection for King Lighting 
because it was a famous 

277
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,599
destination. 
It was something that everybody 

278
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,359
is dreaming of and of course it 
was too challenging for for the 

279
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,800
people participating. 
And that event some somehow 

280
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:38,200
through shade in the in the 
early beginnings of of the 

281
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600
Parliament World Cup. 
But they recovered quite fast 

282
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,360
and then with few between few 
years, especially after the the 

283
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:51,200
circuit was established in a way
and especially when the tandem 

284
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,520
of Sergei Murillo and the 
Christian Quest, the French 

285
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,440
guys, they came into the 
management, including Laura 

286
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,400
Sepide that I already mentioned.
So this structure, it was 

287
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,960
running well, but these three 
people truly, truly moved the 

288
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:14,280
World Cup to the most advanced 
organizing party in the Arabic 

289
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,320
world. 
Just want to take the names of 

290
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,080
those 3 legends who actually 
made it happen. 

291
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,680
Can you please repeat that for 
our listeners? 

292
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,680
Yes I believe that in the order 
of importance. 

293
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,320
I mean this is, I mean it's it's
not that I'm taking side but 

294
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,480
it's it's it's it's difficult to
to separate among these three 

295
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,440
people. 
So in my my eyes for sure I have

296
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,880
my preferences personal but for 
the sake of history there are 

297
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,800
three of them. 
Are equally important because 

298
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,320
Xavier Murillo he's he started 
quite early with paragliding. 

299
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,680
He was luckily A photographer so
he documented everything. 

300
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,560
So we here I have in my eyes 
here I have literally more than 

301
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,400
10,000 slides from from his all 
of that material is hanging 

302
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320
around. 
You know all sorts of photos 

303
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,840
from World Cups, from world 
based paragliding from 

304
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,200
monitoring all sorts of 
everything. 

305
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,040
So and that guy was truly living
this world bringing some 

306
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,360
experiences from from other 
sports. 

307
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,520
As I said he was quite involved 
into all penis and doing some 

308
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,000
kind of sport events. 
Even before paragliding he was 

309
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,920
very focused. 
He pushed the because you know 

310
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,880
this in paragliding in those 
days it was quite a strong 

311
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,040
localized influence. 
You know, doesn't matter it was 

312
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,480
too international. 
There was always this Central 

313
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,680
European countries pushing 
towards themselves. 

314
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,000
So he's French by the way. 
So he he was the first one to 

315
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,960
realize the importance of truly 
international. 

316
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,360
So he was the one who truly 
pushed World Cup out of European

317
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,640
boundaries. 
Honestly not with some you know 

318
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,240
pretending doing it. 
And the the the way the the 

319
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,920
structure of the rules, the 
structure of the system that we 

320
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,800
have now, the Super final 
concept of all those things are 

321
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,920
inventions. 
Of that particular person, the 

322
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,160
second one is Christian Quest. 
He's also French man. 

323
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,680
He's he was the president of the
World Cup in those years, but 

324
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,120
that was like one part of his 
job. 

325
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,360
He brought to the World Cup the 
GPS verification and he was the 

326
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,280
one who was constantly, 
constantly pushing for technical

327
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,800
innovations. 
So that's why I mean in that's 

328
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,280
why World Cup was at the 
forefront in those days with 

329
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,960
with scoring with verification 
instruments. 

330
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,120
There was this famous MLR 
instrument that was developed in

331
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,120
France where pretenders were 
directly participating in 

332
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,800
producing the 90s first GPS unit
that is dedicated to part of 

333
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,840
lighting that is now like every 
single manufacturer having you 

334
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,800
know. 
So all these things came 

335
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,760
together and not to be 
forgotten. 

336
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,240
I have mentioned a few times 
Laura Sekat she's one of the 

337
00:20:54,240 --> 00:21:01,680
most important persons in the in
the in the World Cup. 

338
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,240
You know this is kind of person 
that is such a driving force, 

339
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,440
such a responsible person, such 
a willing to keep this 

340
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,880
communique going on that since a
very long time she is, you know,

341
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,400
absorbing all the positive and 
negative feedback, do working 

342
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,120
with it, preparing the correct 
information for us and for the 

343
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,920
pilots and like secretary, but 
she's much more than that. 

344
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,320
She was. 
She's present since long, long 

345
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,000
time and significant. 
Oh, well, I mean, I, I feel 

346
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,960
blessed to have someone like 
Laura in our sport, you know, 

347
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,880
with that kind of driving force 
and actually making things 

348
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,960
better for every other pilot 
like me and and out there like 

349
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,200
listeners. 
So great, Thank you for that 

350
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,680
recap. 
You know, I think it was very 

351
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,520
essential to get an idea about 
what basically went behind the 

352
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,440
making of such a successful 
organization. 

353
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,840
But this brings me to a point, 
Cora, I'm very curious. 

354
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:02,000
You know, like past 5-10 years 
we have seen the sport kind of 

355
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,040
leap and bound in in various 
directions. 

356
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,040
You know there's like I can Fly 
is going massive. 

357
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,920
Manufacturers are putting in a 
lot of their resources there. 

358
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,680
The research and development is 
going there. 

359
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,040
We we had Mads synagogue the 
Danish guy come up with his own 

360
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,400
league saying that I'm going to 
let out the open class lighters 

361
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,400
compete themselves and now we 
have SRS which is coming in with

362
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,280
you know two liners. 
So there are people who are very

363
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,760
motivated to kind of push things
in their own direction and and 

364
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,400
find their own ways to fulfill 
their curiosity. 

365
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,360
But when it comes to pure 
aviation or pure fun, do you 

366
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:45,680
think paragliding has or is 
evolving in the right direction 

367
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,960
or is it basically kind of you 
know, heading as per where the 

368
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,000
money is basically because 
hiking play is a lot about money

369
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,440
and the glamour and all of those
ideas. 

370
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,960
So what's your take on that? 
I mean, this is a very general 

371
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,400
question and could be applied to
any sport. 

372
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,360
You know, it's not the key point
to understand these days, and 

373
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,320
I'm saying this with full 
responsibility, you know, is to 

374
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,080
to finally understand that 
paragrading is nothing 

375
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,760
exclusive, it's just another 
sport and it's just rolling on 

376
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,720
the basics like whatever is 
rolling these days. 

377
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,840
There is nothing specific or 
nothing extraordinary in the way

378
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,200
how one sport is executed to the
21st century. 

379
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:35,240
The concept is same because if 
the sport is considered a self 

380
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,920
development then for sure you 
can find it in any kind of 

381
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,040
sport. 
If it's considered as a business

382
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,320
opportunity, of course it is 
because majority of sport needs 

383
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,600
equipment. 
Equipment is always commercial 

384
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,600
and this is pushing the sport 
into commercial sphere. 

385
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,000
If it's considered, I know as 
doesn't matter which aspect you 

386
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,280
take. 
Whatever you have in parliament,

387
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,000
you have it. 
Whatever sport on the planet. 

388
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,040
The problem that we are still 
it's underestimated in providing

389
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,800
is the profile of people and the
psychological profile how we are

390
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,680
approaching the sport. 
Usually the people are 

391
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,120
approaching the sports from 
certain affiliation towards some

392
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,200
activity. 
But there are many other factors

393
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,960
like the future, the potential, 
the is it sufficiently 

394
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,080
professional so I could commit 
my entire life to it and many 

395
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,680
many other things. 
In paragliding all those doors 

396
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,720
are open. 
Maybe not that the level like in

397
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,200
the other sports, but the key 
point is that we are still we 

398
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,880
are getting majority of 
participants and this approach 

399
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,440
is a life through long long long
period of their sportive life 

400
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,600
through simple affiliation to 
something. 

401
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,480
So it's even today the emotional
part of joining paragraph is 

402
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,240
much stronger than whatever 
parameter is important for 

403
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,480
joining the sport. 
You know when you're joining the

404
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,320
tennis this day when you have a 
kid and when you're joining the 

405
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,280
tennis the the perspective is 
trace, it's clear there's no too

406
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,120
much of variation left or right.
So you know what is amateur 

407
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:09,480
development, what is semi 
professional, what is 

408
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,440
professional, what is teaching 
to be into administration or to 

409
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,000
go into professional schools for
for trainers or for some staff 

410
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840
doesn't in parameting. 
Those things are still not 

411
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,760
mature enough despite the fact 
that we should be to arenas 

412
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,520
because they're smaller sports, 
much smaller sports that are 

413
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:33,480
much more structured. 
So to to precisely answer your 

414
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,000
question, all these deviation or
all deviation, all these 

415
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,680
directions better, all these 
directions that we have in our 

416
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,040
sport are totally 
understandable. 

417
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,480
You know people are looking for 
some kind of personal to to to 

418
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,320
project themselves into 
something that they like. 

419
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,960
So I can have a very good 
platform. 

420
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,120
It's truly good platform because
this is the in my personal 

421
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,480
opinion and I believe this is 
something that is overlooked 

422
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,760
into a presentation that I can 
fly and in understanding of I 

423
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,080
can fly, I can fly out of all 
the barrier blinding they 

424
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,440
managed to connect the true 
sportsman profile of a true 

425
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,040
sportsman with flying. 
Because you cannot practice, 

426
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,200
hike and fly on the high level, 
especially these days if you are

427
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,400
not truly defined as a 
sportsman, which means strong, 

428
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,640
sufficiently strong, 
disciplined, no alcohol, no 

429
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,440
drugs, no no, all this crap that
is poison the sport these days. 

430
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,920
So this connection is 
attractive. 

431
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:38,760
But the problem with my 
perspective is despite the 

432
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,800
growth I can see the limitations
and limitations are always the 

433
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,920
same in paragbiting and I can 
find the sufferer of it the most

434
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,320
which is dispersed type of 
competition. 

435
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,600
You know hacking flag will 
always attract people because as

436
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,440
I said it's a self challenge and
self challenging. 

437
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,560
Sport is the ultimate driving 
force apart from some financial 

438
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,440
side effects in highly paid 
sports. 

439
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,800
So this self challenging will 
always be around and people will

440
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,840
join it to prove worthy to 
themselves. 

441
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,280
This is also the core of racing,
you know people are racing not 

442
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,960
only to win over others, this is
just a psychological element how

443
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,000
you prove yourself sufficiently 
worthy in what you're doing. 

444
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,120
So this is something that is 
very important to understand. 

445
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,440
And then this kind of this kind 
of, you know, we saw that with 

446
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,040
acro a long time ago. 
It's over, this is over, that is

447
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,800
over, this is cross country is 
over. 

448
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,480
Acro is now the thing and then 
acro shrink, shrink, shrink, 

449
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,040
shrink, shrink, shrink to 
exclusivity that is you know 

450
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,560
it's and how to say it's it's so
minimal that it's almost, I 

451
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,720
don't know it's it's it's kind 
of paragonal disaster that acro 

452
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,680
shrink to what is it today you 
know taking into consideration 

453
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,280
the effort and potential. 
You know, so you know this hype 

454
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,880
is going all the time around. 
You have the same with accuracy.

455
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,080
It was that was the ticket to 
Olympic sport that is this, this

456
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,640
is the thing. 
It is where you have spectators 

457
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,640
and then you go to accuracy 
competition. 

458
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,040
There are no spectators because 
it's endlessly slow, you know, 

459
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,120
it's the competition format. 
It's endless slow. 

460
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,320
Tonight we have these hundreds 
of people participating. 

461
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,960
But that hype that this is the 
thing just shrinking down, you 

462
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,920
know So it is happening all the 
time because we are addressing 

463
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,840
you to you to assist it in in 
maturity we are addressing the 

464
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,200
height of parabolic in taking 
something from something else. 

465
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160
If now we have development of I 
don't know as you mentioned 

466
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,880
competitions with two liner 
serial class virus. 

467
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,440
So this is you can see this on 
the on the Facebook you can see 

468
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,720
this on the forums. 
There are always some people 

469
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,640
saying, I think this is it, this
is it what? 

470
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,040
This is just another form of 
competition when you compete 

471
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,360
against somebody else to prove 
yourself better than himself. 

472
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,760
As simple as that. 
You know, it's like, no, you're 

473
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,560
going to fishing and you catch a
bigger fish than the guy next to

474
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,200
you. 
So it's wrong to think that this

475
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,320
or that or whatever in 
paragliding will take over 

476
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,200
compared to some other branch of
the sport. 

477
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,920
If we are doing a good job, 
there will be people motivated 

478
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,040
to do this or do that, you know,
it's so simple. 

479
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,920
So in reality what I think is 
that all these directions of 

480
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,280
development are healthy because 
through experimenting you will 

481
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,680
find finally what is proven to 
be worthy or what is not. 

482
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,120
Because otherwise it's the only 
hypothetical and I cannot see 

483
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,120
danger into having, I don't 
know, something disappearing. 

484
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,720
But the only thing that I can 
see as danger is the the spread 

485
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,600
of fonts in too many directions,
because people are still 

486
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,840
majority of competition should 
be financed by serve parties, 

487
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,600
not by the participant himself. 
And if you have too many of 

488
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,680
directions that you need to 
invest, this is this could be a 

489
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,640
problem. 
But that's a revolution. 

490
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,520
So it will select, I think, the 
best sports and best people by 

491
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,400
itself. 
Wow, I love your perspective and

492
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,920
how realistically you explained 
all of it and it does resonate 

493
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,600
with me as well. 
You know that when when when 

494
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,440
humans try to push the limit 
everyone will explore their 

495
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,000
curiosity in their own intimate 
manner and it eventually is 

496
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,960
helping us grow and hopefully, 
fingers crossed you know it 

497
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200
brings out something good. 
But yeah if I have to ask you 

498
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,440
and and this is this comes from 
curiosity from me but then that 

499
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,720
when when I started flying 
competing has been in like yeah,

500
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,160
I love competing, I want to 
compete. 

501
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,800
So if there's a there's a newbie
pilot and you have cross country

502
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,560
paralyzing rocking your world, 
can you please explain us what 

503
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,400
are the options to go out and 
chase racing? 

504
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,440
Like you know, what's what's 
FAI, what's SRS, what's PWCA, 

505
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,200
what's Continental championships
like? 

506
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,920
If you can just briefly tell us 
what is the road map a 0 hour 

507
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,600
pilot can take towards going 
ahead and achieving glory on the

508
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,280
podium. 
Hello, this is a good one and I 

509
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,280
would like to make it 
comprehensive but most likely 

510
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,440
it's impossible so but I will 
try for sure. 

511
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,520
So progress in paragliding these
days is. 

512
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,040
I mean it's the road map is 
fairly straightforward and easy 

513
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,600
but it's unfortunately there are
many obstacles because this 

514
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,760
logical progress of pilot is 
manipulated by many structures 

515
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,040
and many organizations so it's 
not that nature anymore. 

516
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,200
So there there, there are 
barriers that are artificial and

517
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,880
unfortunately someone who is 
truly committed usually 

518
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,560
especially if he's not from 
countries like I mentioned 

519
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,680
before with with a well 
developed structure like 

520
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,960
especially France or 
Switzerland. 

521
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,320
I will say because this one are 
still taking a proper care of 

522
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,520
developing a proper sportsman in
the in the paragliding sense of 

523
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,760
word. 
If you are not into this region 

524
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,280
of the world, then you're 
usually exposed of some kind of 

525
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,320
domination of schools and 
schools doesn't want, I mean. 

526
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,840
Independence. 
Yeah, I know what you mean. 

527
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,520
I feel it. 
I don't. 

528
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,880
I don't want to be. 
I mean it's honestly it's the 

529
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,200
truth. 
I as a student have faced the 

530
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,520
problem so and we are all about 
being being honest and knowledge

531
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,240
here and so it doesn't doesn't 
harm. 

532
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Yeah. 
Please go ahead. 

533
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:34,520
Schools would like to have a 
constant flow of students being 

534
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,520
around, being the basis of their
school or shop or whatever they 

535
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:39,880
are lending. 
This one doesn't matter. 

536
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,680
So this is kind of progressing, 
moving from that controlled area

537
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,760
is basically losing customers 
and it's quite serious in 

538
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,000
certain countries, especially 
for example in Germany and this,

539
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,000
this, this behaviour model is 
basically preventing people of 

540
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,560
getting right perspective on 
things. 

541
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,640
It's not so bad, you know, I 
mean I would like to say this is

542
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,040
quite good because and not 
everyone is fit or tailored for 

543
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,840
competition lifestyle. 
Somebody is perfectly happy with

544
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,680
club level lifestyle, but many, 
many pilots we are losing in the

545
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,120
competition hand because of this
happening around. 

546
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,240
Then if you are lucky enough to 
go through the system and if you

547
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,560
have enough enough stamina to to
to push yourself beyond the 

548
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,640
boundaries that are around you. 
So then the typical way how to 

549
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,600
progress is to start with some 
cross country flying. 

550
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,320
I mean, doesn't matter is it 
individual or is it within some 

551
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,680
control structure. 
But cross country flying that is

552
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,760
let's say ambitious when you're 
pushing your boundaries because 

553
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,800
it is like learning the alphabet
and then learning the alphabet 

554
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:57,200
will give you enough tools to 
enter competition first of all. 

555
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,640
So it's this is the the key 
point entering competitions 

556
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,960
because you can spend all of 
your life flying without not 

557
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,200
entering a single comp. 
And why it's important to enter 

558
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,920
comps. 
This is this is a bit of strange

559
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,199
phenomenon in paragliding. 
The competitions in paragliding,

560
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:17,880
especially average to good ones.
They are the the best 

561
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,400
environment for flying because 
their their entire structure 

562
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,400
around the single pilot. 
When you are for example living 

563
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,120
let's say in some place that is 
not very developed, you have 

564
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,639
million question Marks and you 
have million of things that you 

565
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,880
need to figure out yourself. 
Starting from the logistics, 

566
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,159
starting from metal or starting 
from what is allowed, what is 

567
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,000
not allowed. 
Airspace is million of of of 

568
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,199
things that could be 
overwhelming because all these 

569
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,800
things are just distracting you 
from doing what you want. 

570
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,560
Then you go to a competition 
that is proportional to your 

571
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,120
skill and to your level that you
will not be exposed to some 

572
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,000
crazy advanced stuff. 
If you're noise pilot, you need 

573
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,960
to position yourself where you 
belong and then what you will 

574
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,640
see there. 
It will be an organized 

575
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,920
structure when there is someone 
thinking about every aspect of 

576
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,280
your day. 
When to start, when to be there,

577
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,240
when to have a briefing, when to
to open the window. 

578
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,040
What is the metaphor today? 
To pick you up, To give you 

579
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,600
food, To give you all the 
informations, To take care about

580
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,600
injuries, to take care about the
pet staff, to take care about 

581
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:27,960
good staff, To give you an 
advice? 

582
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,960
You know, suddenly if you are in
that environment, you will 

583
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:37,080
improve on your progress by 
multiple times because simply 

584
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:42,200
you are practicing the sport. 
When everything is organized, 

585
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,000
yeah, this is the benefit. 
This is the benefit of low 

586
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,320
profile comps. 
You know, this is the benefit 

587
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,080
about from the serial glass 
comps, nothing else. 

588
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,600
You know because competition as 
I said before is a activity that

589
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,840
will personally change. 
Challenge the pilot himself. 

590
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,640
No one who is truly competitor 
will stay at the level of ENC 

591
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,080
gliders. 
No one. 

592
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,160
It's not about the marketing, 
it's not about who wants what, 

593
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,360
because competing with yourself 
is, is is a push towards 

594
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,320
perfection and perfection. 
It's difficult to be satisfied 

595
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,720
simply as a competitor. 
Then you know that there is 

596
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:26,520
something more demanding, more 
attractive, more performance, 

597
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,560
more, more, more, many, many 
more. 

598
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,480
And that's why there is no, 
there is zero risk about this. 

599
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,040
What I said before about losing 
this or that because if you 

600
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,680
would like to achieve part of 
the excellence it is only one 

601
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,400
way. 
And that way is to become an 

602
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,000
independent pilot, to become 
someone who knows how things are

603
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:53,400
done, who is self confident, who
is able to to to fly hundreds of

604
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,440
kilometers to fly many hours in.
The shortcut to reach them is 

605
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,000
basically competing on high 
level. 

606
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,840
This is it's so you know this is
really important to be properly 

607
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,720
understood. 
The competing in the World Cup, 

608
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,520
competing in category one. 
This is not the ultimating. 

609
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,480
This is like a school for you to
become so good pilot that you 

610
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,320
can do things on yourself in 
such a perfection and and this 

611
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,400
learning curve will be much 
shorter than if you're trying to

612
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,040
do that by yourself. 
So the next day when you have 

613
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,280
this fantastic day and then you 
have this weekend for your work 

614
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,080
without the family, when you go 
to hill and when you have this 

615
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:37,720
epic one one day in a life 
opportunity, then you go, I 

616
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:40,640
don't know, Kisha in Brazil and 
you have this 600 kilometers 

617
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,960
record flight. 
Every single pilot who is, I 

618
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,880
mean, maybe to be too optimistic
to say or too too glamorous to 

619
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,040
say, but every single pilot 
who's important, he went through

620
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,280
some kind of competition 
shaping, you know, because this 

621
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,320
is the way how you really 
progress. 100% and I think it's 

622
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,720
so easy to resonate with that 
because when you compete with 

623
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,240
yourself that is when you become
a better version of yourself and

624
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,640
and of course as you said 
competition entry and 

625
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,280
competitions is basically trying
to push the limits first from 

626
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,720
within and then with with people
around you. 

627
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,720
But you know I I think the best 
out on on the structure of comps

628
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:25,080
because as as like we know that 
there's FAI and then there's 

629
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,480
PWCA and then there's SRS and 
then there's other things. 

630
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,840
So if you can briefly just let 
us know what are the options for

631
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,440
for like what are all of these 
things and how do you understand

632
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,080
what they are basically? 
OK, let's start in the inverse 

633
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,400
way. 
The weakest thing in our sport 

634
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,240
is administration, You know, 
this is and that's what you're 

635
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,800
saying. 
Now this question is, I'm having

636
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,640
this question quite often in 
different forms. 

637
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,080
It is really important to to 
know that this question would be

638
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,440
unnecessary if the 
administration was like it 

639
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,080
should be for such a developed 
sport. 

640
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,640
You know the administration. 
I when I first I would like to 

641
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,920
address the FAI which is 
International Federation of Air 

642
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,840
Sports based in Lausanne in 
Switzerland. 

643
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,760
A very serious organization 
which is the the most important 

644
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,880
thing that is not well known is 
that FAI is Olympic recognized 

645
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,160
federation. 
Only handful of federations in 

646
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,840
the world are Olympic 
federations or Olympic 

647
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,240
recognized. 
So basically the sport is 

648
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,640
governed by the FAI. 
They have an authority on that. 

649
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,280
It's given to them by it's not 
they didn't take it. 

650
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,640
It is given to them by the 
Olympic Committee basically. 

651
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,240
So in the ultimate level, FAI is
the organization that is 

652
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:49,240
governing World Championships 
and this is the only only 

653
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,360
organization in the world that 
could grant the title of world 

654
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,120
champion. 
So when you win, whatever else 

655
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,920
you can be, whatever, but you 
cannot be a world champion. 

656
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,600
You can be a World Cup champion.
You can be dissident, but you 

657
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,560
cannot simply it's it's like a 
trademark and it's it's 

658
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,080
exclusivity and this is the the 
most important thing and this is

659
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,360
the most glorious thing in in 
the terror sport and it's not 

660
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,280
well known, which is the failure
of administration, because this 

661
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,240
is the ticket. 
For many top sportsmen, access 

662
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:21,120
to the funds, to the 
government's fund, to the 

663
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,360
Olympic committees in their 
national countries. 

664
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,200
So to answer precisely your 
question on the top of the 

665
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,960
pyramid should be it's not good,
but it should be the world 

666
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,280
championship in whatever 
discipline paragraph, because 

667
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,800
this is the place when you are 
getting a champion, when you are

668
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,200
getting the best in the world. 
So these events, these events 

669
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:48,120
are called Category 1 events and
the sub organization FAI that is

670
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,040
governing this is CIBL which is 
commissioned within the FAI 

671
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600
which is working specifically 
for paragliding because the FAA 

672
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,680
is as many commissions looking 
for arrow modeling for 

673
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,920
ballooning for what Cibl is 
governing the the the 

674
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,280
paragliding sport. 
So it came landing as well. 

675
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:11,120
So in CIBL we are we are 
organizing category once and 

676
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,080
vice president there. 
So I'm quite familiar with the 

677
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,800
topic as well. 
So category one, Worlds 

678
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,160
Europeans, Pan Americans or Par 
Asians doesn't matter are the 

679
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,120
places that those are the costs 
that are should be on the top of

680
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920
the pyramid. 
This system dissolves lower into

681
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,720
category two events. 
Category Two events are all the 

682
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,840
others that are CFL recognized. 
In professional World Sanctioned

683
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,920
events, when you apply with your
application, you are basically 

684
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,720
giving a guarantee that you will
apply certain standards. 

685
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,440
So category two is nothing more 
than basically a binding 

686
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,360
correlation in between two 
parties that the rules 

687
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,320
established by Seattle will be 
followed by the organizer. 

688
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,000
There is a fee for that which is
modest but doesn't matter. 

689
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,360
It's organized and then with 
getting a sanctioning. 

690
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,640
Simply you are recognized as 
organizer of the comp under 

691
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,760
certain standards and rules in 
this category two events. 

692
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,000
In this category Two events. 
All the events that you know 

693
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,880
that are good enough are 
category two including World 

694
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,760
Cups including SRS, including 
whatever. 

695
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,880
All of these events they fit 
into the profile of category two

696
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,720
events sanctioned by Cibl. 
So now basically the story ends 

697
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:29,400
here. 
So you have category one and 

698
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,360
category two events. 
This is the this is the 

699
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,720
structure and this is the cost. 
So in category 2, events 

700
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:41,600
organizers are basically very 
free to use the rules in a way 

701
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,120
they see appropriate. 
Basically there is a precise 

702
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,960
line in the rules saying that 
category one which is world's 

703
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,640
and Continental championship 
rules should be followed by 

704
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,560
category two or as far as 
appropriate, which is giving you

705
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,000
quite loose format so you can do
whatever you want. 

706
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,600
So now there are many sub 
organizations that are doing 

707
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,880
what they're doing. 
World Cup is the most important 

708
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,560
and for sure most developed and 
biggest one and with longest 

709
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,760
experience into this. 
So we established the structure 

710
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,920
totally independent and we are 
truly working on our 

711
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,440
independence through from CIVL 
and from the FAI because this is

712
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,120
the healthiest way how the sport
would not be misled into the 

713
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,800
mistakes that first of all led 
to formation of the World Cup 30

714
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,240
years ago. 
So independence is very 

715
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:41,040
important for the World Cup. 
So we have our own rules that 

716
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,960
are quite often a model for 
Category 1 rules because 

717
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,000
category one is 1 per year and 
World Cup is 10 times per year. 

718
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,920
So there is much more place to 
practice. 

719
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,280
We have much more knowledgeable 
base to to get some technical 

720
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,880
stuff for formulas whatever and 
we have much more experienced 

721
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,640
field to experiment with. 
So then we have a pre World Cup 

722
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,840
concert which is 1520 events per
year that you can also do 

723
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,960
things. 
So basically World Cup is the 

724
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,320
driving force before behind 
whatever is happening in 

725
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,880
parabolic world and this is the 
you know because whatever you 

726
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,680
take from the way how it's 
scored, from the way how it's 

727
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,120
monitored. 
We were The Pioneers in the in 

728
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,040
the life tracking for sure the 
first life tracking was applied 

729
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,640
in the European Championship in 
Austria. 

730
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,440
I mean at that level but stop 
there. 

731
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:35,200
And then the entire development 
thanks to huge commitment from 

732
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,280
Flying Master, our partner in 
the World Cup we develop it to 

733
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,280
the levels that are today, You 
know it's it's state-of-the-art 

734
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,800
technology you know. 
So this is the importance of the

735
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,960
World Cup. 
It's the rest on the other hand 

736
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,800
is a new system of pumps, a new 
organization. 

737
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,960
The the main difference that is 
important to understand is the 

738
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,080
World Cup is an association, 
which means it's an open 

739
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,040
structure when people can can 
directly contribute to decision 

740
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,920
making. 
While SRS is a centralized let's

741
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,200
say privately run and owned 
organization and it's it's it's 

742
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,720
a different structure and it's 
differently based but the way 

743
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,880
how it's executed its copy paste
from the roadside which is 

744
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,840
cycles of four or five events 
during the year and then final 

745
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,760
or or doesn't matter how they're
calling it. 

746
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,720
So basically this is just 
another form of of sport class 

747
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,320
competition because competition,
sport competitions everywhere 

748
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,440
around the world, many of them 
so and then there is many spin 

749
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,480
offs. 
So there is a paragraph in Grand

750
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,760
Prix, the Polish Castro 
organizing this, which is very 

751
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,840
similar to to SRS. 
It's another fairly successful 

752
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,840
modality how for this 
intermediate level of events, 

753
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,600
serial events and yeah, more or 
less this is the structure. 

754
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,400
So you have this basic 
structure, category one, 

755
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,920
category two events, and then 
you have these different types 

756
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,840
of organizations and organizers 
that are fitting into that 

757
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,960
structure by creating their own 
identity. 

758
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,560
Got it. 
So so just to sum it up 

759
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,480
basically FAM is sitting at the 
top of the pyramid and and 

760
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:20,800
define like who gets to crown 
the world champion glory and and

761
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,720
FAI is not-for-profit as well 
you know that's the they are 

762
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:28,680
being run solely for the sake 
sport and then that is category 

763
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,440
one. 
Once you go one tier down in 

764
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:36,040
category 2, you have these 
allied organizations which can 

765
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,280
be for profit as well as non 
profit. 

766
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,920
And then these are these 
organizations allow people to to

767
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,160
come in and have their first 
competitions or experience what 

768
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,600
competition structure is like. 
And and that can be SRS, that 

769
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,760
can be PWCA, that can be you 
know, the other one, the Grand 

770
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,520
Prix as you said or even maybe 
whatever maths the Danish guy 

771
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,800
started. 
So all of these things come in 

772
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,200
category two under all right, 
makes sense, makes sense. 

773
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,040
So basically when we talk about 
category two, is there the civil

774
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,080
is still defining the rules. 
Basically is is there a watchdog

775
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,600
sitting up top and saying this 
is how it is supposed to, it 

776
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,680
will be run or is like this is 
how it is supposed to be run by 

777
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,440
you do your own thing kind of 
like what's? 

778
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,640
Yes. 
You know, this is, yeah, it's 

779
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,480
it's coming in circles. 
You know, as I said, 

780
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:33,880
administration is the weakest 
point. 

781
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:40,920
So CIBL is is a very have to say
very positive structure. 

782
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,120
You know it's a it's a structure
of the concept and how it is 

783
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,840
executed in the especially in 
the last 10 years maybe 

784
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,920
something like this it's like it
should be. 

785
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,720
So this governing of the 
category two and one events in 

786
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,920
general is is done in a fairly 
successful way. 

787
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,160
It's luckily CABL followed the 
concept of World Cup and then 

788
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,800
about 6-7 years ago we or they 
does a veteran part of it. 

789
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,760
So maybe I should say we to 
avoid confusion with the World 

790
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,600
Cup. 
I was a day so agreed to have a 

791
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,560
permanent employee. 
So this is Miss Elena for one of

792
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,080
us competition coordinators. 
So now they have someone 

793
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:24,560
employed and paid to run the 
same stuff that Laura is doing 

794
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,960
for us, which is governing and 
controlling and following all 

795
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,200
the event sanctioning payments, 
following the rules. 

796
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,880
We have a platform which is 
called EMS which is. 

797
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,480
So you can see that on the 
cavilcomps.org when this 

798
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,640
platform is, I mean Elena is a 
moderator there. 

799
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:49,000
So it is kind of her baby with 
our investment and you know so 

800
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:55,800
all these things are making 
Seattle a perfect controlling 

801
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,240
body. 
But of course but but the amount

802
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:02,480
of job and amount of 
malfunctions is it's it's 

803
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,160
enormous. 
You know because for sure many, 

804
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,000
many events are small local town
hill events. 

805
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,880
You know, 20 people that would 
like to have some kind of event 

806
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,920
somewhere, they need some kind 
of officialized form for 

807
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,000
sponsorship, for whatever. 
So they are applying for 

808
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,080
sanctioning. 
They're not so motivated, 

809
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,200
they're not so serious, they're 
not so ambitious. 

810
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,280
And then those events, for sure 
they have quite flexible rules. 

811
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,440
But in general, luckily due to 
the tools that we have in 

812
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,320
Seattle like the Paris and the 
world blocking system, there are

813
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,840
many filters how these kind of 
events are not influential for 

814
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,000
the entire picture of the of the
competition scene. 

815
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,320
You know, so they're kind of by 
the system, they're kind of 

816
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,880
discarded in a way maybe not 
really discarded, but let's say 

817
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,160
they're dissolved into the mass 
of higher quality events. 

818
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,200
So they're becoming 
insignificant, you know. 

819
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,800
So if I say that CA will have a 
few, I mean that have a massive 

820
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,280
control, it would be over 
ambitious. 

821
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:05,000
It has a certain amount of 
control. 

822
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,040
It has a certain amount of 
projection, the power and to 

823
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,240
following events as we go higher
in the pyramid. 

824
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:15,920
If you go towards more important
events like big national opens 

825
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,680
or like 3 events for the world 
for Europeans, for category 

826
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,280
ones, so then this control and 
this influence of Seattle is 

827
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,400
growing and it's becoming a 
crucial element. 

828
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,720
And then in category one is 
ultimate because in category one

829
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:34,280
events CLL could stop the event 
with declare it and call it. 

830
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,760
I mean it has a full control. 
So in other words, in simple I 

831
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,760
mean this is an elaborated 
answer but in simple words CLL 

832
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,800
has a serious influence and when
you're applying for category two

833
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,320
it should be followed. 
The rules are defined, the 

834
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,120
variations are they are 
existing, but they are somehow 

835
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,920
still usually within some 
acceptable means. 

836
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,680
Got it. 
Just to clarify on one point, 

837
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,200
category one are the big ones. 
Category two is basically a 

838
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,200
blanket acceptance for every 
competition that is supposed to 

839
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,640
go under civil. 
So be it PWCA, be it SRS, be it 

840
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,200
drop free, if they want to go 
under civil, they will go under 

841
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:20,880
category. 
Exactly. 

842
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:22,600
Awesome. 
OK, great. 

843
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,280
I'm very curious about the 
licenses. 

844
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,840
You know, I've heard a lot about
sporting license and then 

845
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,400
there's IPPI and then there's 
Appi, you know, doing their own 

846
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,400
thing and of course the 
insurance and everything that 

847
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,280
comes with it. 
We have seen Gavin talk on his 

848
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,840
podcast about, you know, how 
important it is to carry the 

849
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,560
right insurance. 
So what like I think there are 

850
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,520
three big licenses that we're 
talking about right now. 

851
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,360
One is APPI, one is IPPI and the
other sporting license. 

852
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:55,760
Which license gives you access 
to category one and how to 

853
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,960
basically navigate that 
landscape? 

854
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,200
OK, so now we're entering the 
tricky zone when when there is, 

855
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:10,760
I mean or maybe it's better to 
say intentionally Gray zone not 

856
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,200
by myself but by the by the 
existing system. 

857
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,000
And what I will say it will be 
seen as fairly controversial by 

858
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:23,920
seats to people. 
But my my my position on this is

859
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,440
well known in any kind of forum 
when I'm around and when I'm 

860
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,840
asked I'm given the same answer 
because it's it's quite matured 

861
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,480
opinion. 
I worked. 

862
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,080
I'm working with this since 
extremely long time. 

863
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,760
I have a sufficient resources 
and information to to to to know

864
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:47,560
exactly what I'm saying. 
Whatever, whatever license apart

865
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,960
from FAA sporting license is 
existing is first of all 

866
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:57,320
unnecessary. 
It's partial manipulation, you 

867
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,920
know in a in a bad sense of the 
word. 

868
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:03,680
Now in a positive sense, it's 
manipulating people in 

869
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,520
organizations and it's only 
those other types of licenses 

870
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,680
that exist existing because as I
said in the beginning, because 

871
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:20,600
of the weakness of CML or FAI to
make a correct system around the

872
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,800
globe, This is based on a 
structural problem. 

873
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,880
This is not based of incapable 
people. 

874
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:30,800
This is based on a fundamental 
conflict between the FA statutes

875
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,680
and how this organization is 
working. 

876
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:37,680
Because FAI is I mean it's a 
little bit going away from the 

877
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,920
topic but it's important to I 
will try to to make it 

878
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,320
comprehensive. 
It's important to know that FAA 

879
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,720
basically is federation of 
national Arab club so national 

880
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:51,560
clubs organizations in in in 
countries so in in countries is 

881
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:56,480
recognized by UN for in a 
country and then this this 

882
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,440
organizations so-called national
clubs are members of FAA. 

883
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,400
So FAA is basically a 
compilation it's it's it's 

884
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,440
assume of its members not to go 
into many details. 

885
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,600
What is the most important thing
is that when you're a national 

886
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,520
club the the main article 
defining your relation with FAI 

887
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,720
is that you are governing the 
sport on your territory word to 

888
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:23,240
word. 
So that means the nation of club

889
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,520
of Bolivia is governing the 
paragon sport in their own 

890
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,280
country. 
So they should follow the rules 

891
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,000
of FAI and this. 
But then of course if they're 

892
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,440
not following how you penalize 
how you you know this is this is

893
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,920
unrepleted territory. 
So basically when a national 

894
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:45,920
club is paying fees to the FAA 
he's becoming customer. 

895
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,080
He's becoming a member of FAA 
and with buying his membership 

896
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,880
he's getting the authority of 
the over his territory. 

897
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,800
This is not so far away from 
from perhaps some failed of this

898
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,560
is not so far away from the dark
ages of human. 

899
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:03,600
Very true. 
Very true. 

900
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,200
Development, you know so. 
And then when a certain national

901
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,160
club is buying the territory, 
then he can do whatever they 

902
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,520
want. 
And then they are imposing all 

903
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:18,400
sorts of crap to the pilots, to 
the realizations regarding 

904
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,200
licenses, for example. 
In civilized world they're for 

905
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,960
free. 
In not so civilized world 

906
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,120
they're for cheap. 
In a brutal world they are very 

907
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,040
expensive. 
So because for national club 

908
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,080
that is not well integrated into
society, when you have a bunch 

909
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,720
of people that just they can see
an opportunity in this, they say

910
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,120
OK, you would like to go to the 
World Championship. 

911
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,600
So now you have to pay €1000 for
the license. 

912
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,000
So you're not getting the 
license, you're not getting the 

913
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,720
license, so you're not going to 
the World Championship despite 

914
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:50,360
the fact that you have sponsors 
that you have money that you 

915
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,520
have with them. 
So now if AI is, is is willing 

916
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,560
to support the system because 
it's working for them, because 

917
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:02,120
their goal their their their 
theoretical goal is the sport. 

918
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,280
But of course there is another 
goal to run the organization in 

919
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,040
order to run the organization 
with investment. 

920
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,640
Investment is coming from the 
national clubs and some other 

921
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,240
sources, but national clubs are 
primary source. 

922
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,960
And then it's conflict of 
interest and it's game over, you

923
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,600
know, So that means that certain
people in certain countries 

924
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,920
doesn't matter how good they 
are, how loyal they are, doesn't

925
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,600
matter they cannot get FA 
license. 

926
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,520
They cannot participate in cut 
once and this is disaster, you 

927
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,960
know, so and that goes in all 
possible directions. 

928
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:39,440
So in certain countries when the
national clubs are strong, they 

929
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,160
are not giving the right people 
to compete in Category 2. 

930
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:46,800
So it's getting even worse. 
So then it's a massive push 

931
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,400
towards certain people to buy 
licenses or to do I don't know 

932
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,560
what in order to be able to get 
the license. 

933
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,360
So there is a filter imposed by 
certain countries. 

934
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,280
So that is giving opportunity to
third parties to introduce the 

935
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,920
licenses that will fulfill this 
gap. 

936
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:11,080
And certain people would like to
have something in order to do 

937
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,880
something. 
You know, this is, this is 

938
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:14,720
ridiculous. 
You know it's. 

939
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:16,120
Messed up. 
It's messed up. 

940
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,640
Yes, it totally messed up in 
reality. 

941
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,840
And you know, I'm not 
criticizing this like a clever 

942
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,080
one. 
People that are within these 

943
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,960
problems, they are all very 
aware what I'm saying, including

944
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,960
the FBI including CIVO all of 
us, we are trying to find the 

945
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,560
solution. 
The solution is complex because 

946
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,720
of this because of the statutes 
are are defined and it's kind of

947
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,600
a deadlock that people are not 
able to to go out of it. 

948
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,160
So you know, but we can witness 
this in the modern world, you 

949
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,480
know, neutral flag, Olympic flag
is existing in order to cover 

950
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,840
the conflicts, in order to cover
the irregularities, but it's not

951
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,320
working well. 
So in FA is case there is FAI 

952
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,800
flag, there is FAI. 
So if you're not able to get the

953
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,280
license, your country FAI should
provide the one for you because 

954
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,280
it should be a supervising 
power. 

955
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,720
But then it's also not working 
well because when FAI is 

956
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,600
providing to someone, it is 
interfering with the national 

957
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:14,760
club and they don't want to do 
it. 

958
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,600
So basically that door is closed
as well in a way, in a way or 

959
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,680
there are too many of obstacles 
in order to get the license in 

960
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,800
that way. 
So back to the original 

961
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,320
question, if the AFA license is 
working well and it's really 

962
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:35,160
important to have it because 
it's not, it's not the document,

963
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,960
it's very this is something that
is important to be proclaimed 

964
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,560
this to really know what is it. 
If a license is something like 

965
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,160
paying sanction fee for category
two, if a license is not how 

966
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,560
good you are, this is not 
proficiency license. 

967
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:54,520
If a license is a document, when
you're taking one, you're 

968
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,120
basically admitting the rules 
basically. 

969
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,240
So having the AFAI license, 
you're accepting the sporting 

970
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:07,760
code, so you know anti doping 
policy, fair play policy, this 

971
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,160
all all the policies, positive 
policies in the sports defined 

972
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:15,520
by the statute and you're 
accepting the rules under which 

973
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,120
competitions are executed. 
That's it. 

974
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,800
And people are manipulating this
and because there is no 

975
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,160
sufficient amount of knowledge 
if the job of FAAA to provide 

976
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,120
sufficient knowledge to travel 
around the world to educate. 

977
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,440
But due to many reasons that are
happening. 

978
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,680
So in simple words, whatever it 
is a PPIIPPI, tomorrow it will 

979
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,800
be some other eye, doesn't 
matter. 

980
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:42,720
This is kind of vacuum filling 
tools. 

981
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,120
I have nothing against these 
people, I have nothing against 

982
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,360
their work. 
Furthermore, I really appreciate

983
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,880
what they are doing because they
are not one to be blamed because

984
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:58,120
they found a spot that they can 
manifest their capabilities and 

985
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,720
they can protect themselves but.
The real reason is what I just. 

986
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,480
Got it. 
Now this brings me to a dilemma 

987
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,840
because the cash is king is a 
big problem in a lot of 

988
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,240
industries, you know, and 
especially when it comes to 

989
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:16,160
competing and and and human 
versus human finding reward and 

990
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,560
and all of that like cash 
negates that. 

991
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,600
And when we bring in technology 
that also of course, you know, 

992
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,440
takes away a little bit of fun. 
But having a sporting license 

993
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,840
is, is that enough to get you 
inside category two or do you 

994
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,040
need an extra document on top of
it? 

995
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,160
Because you said it's not a 
proficiency license, it's just 

996
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,600
the ethos and ethics and and it 
just fixes that. 

997
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,160
So where do Appi and IPPI 
licenses come in combination 

998
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,720
with Sporting license? 
Well, that's a question of 

999
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,200
proficiency, as you said for 
sure. 

1000
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,560
But then also for that there is 
a solution which is part of the 

1001
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:59,040
program developed here, here to 
go and I, you know, I mean, if I

1002
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,440
go into details to explain all 
of it, I will need three days to

1003
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:08,120
to speak, which absolutely not 
not not feasible let's say, but 

1004
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,480
everything that we have my, my, 
one of my first sentences was 

1005
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,560
that there is nothing specific 
in paragon that everything is 

1006
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:16,200
invented, everything is 
invented. 

1007
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,360
You know the proficiency levels 
are defined for paragraph. 

1008
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,240
Everybody knows the Provence, 
how to enforce and then again 

1009
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,400
the deadlock. 
Because national club is the one

1010
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,280
who needs to establish the 
system in their own country 

1011
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,600
territory where they can provide
the document to the pilot. 

1012
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,680
What is their proficiency level 
according to the national 

1013
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,600
training program. 
That's simple. 

1014
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,800
It's it's it's FAI job through 
the national club. 

1015
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,520
You are living in Pakistan. 
You are. 

1016
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:48,960
You're having your national 
club. 

1017
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,080
The national club is active in 
your country. 

1018
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:56,000
They have a of of instructors, 
whatever they have schools, they

1019
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,840
have a program. 
Then the student is going 

1020
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,080
through the program is getting 
the proficiency license of the 

1021
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,720
country which is defined which 
is this level. 

1022
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,480
That level doesn't matter how 
it's called in which country. 

1023
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:13,120
And then with that level 
synchronized with FA levels, you

1024
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,080
go to the comps. 
So it is FA license and 

1025
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,520
proficiency license. 
That should give you a place 

1026
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,480
into comp, yes. 
I have a question and this 

1027
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,200
question is coming from villain 
because this has happened with 

1028
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:27,040
me. 
I'm an Indian pilot and I I 

1029
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,480
basically you know, moved to 
Europe to try and chase my this 

1030
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,160
whole ecosystem racing 
paradigms. 

1031
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:39,200
India has the Knack Aero Club of
India and that Knack has the 

1032
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,400
capability to give you a 
sporting license, but it does 

1033
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,200
not give you a proficiency 
license. 

1034
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,080
That's simply because they're 
like, we don't have a structure 

1035
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,800
to figure out, but you tell us 
how many hours you've flown. 

1036
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:51,960
We're all flown. 
And if you know some good pilots

1037
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,680
or like some some known names 
who can vouch for you, we'll 

1038
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:57,880
issue you a sporting license 
based on goodwill. 

1039
01:02:58,520 --> 01:02:59,800
That's fine. 
Like, you know, if you're 

1040
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:01,680
friends with everyone and if 
you're kind of keeping people 

1041
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,640
smiling and happy, deal. 
You have a sporting license. 

1042
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,600
Now I I walk out with a sporting
license in Europe and I and I 

1043
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,680
walk into into Norway and I say 
that, hey, here's my sporting 

1044
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,240
license, you have a FAI category
two competition. 

1045
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,320
Let me wait, they don't let me 
in. 

1046
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,640
Now where did I go wrong and 
what could a person in my 

1047
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,240
situation do better to have a 
chance to compete in a category 

1048
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,560
two competition in a first world
country? 

1049
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,560
That's a good question and but 
there is answer. 

1050
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:32,560
There is no defined answer on 
that because you're not the only

1051
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,040
one. 
We have these experiences all 

1052
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:35,760
over the world. 
It's happening every single day 

1053
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,040
to any poster. 
Is one of the one of the 

1054
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,000
countries with most frequent 
problems related to this what 

1055
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,920
you just explained. 
So the correct, the correct way 

1056
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:53,560
is to check them in, which is 
not really easy to correct the 

1057
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,240
requirements in certain country 
before applying to the comp and 

1058
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,480
to fulfill according to their 
local regulations. 

1059
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,120
That's why we have local 
regulations in every single 

1060
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,480
event, at least now it's 
mandatory. 

1061
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,880
With EMS, you must put them in 
EMS in order to have this event 

1062
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,520
sanctioned in the 1st place when
Someone Like You or me going to 

1063
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,800
a strange country or unknown 
country will be informed 

1064
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,000
properly. 
So in reality, in order to get 

1065
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,080
the VPS points in order to get 
to be recognized within the 

1066
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:27,040
frame of EAVL, there is nothing 
more that you need apart from 

1067
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,280
the sporting license. 
So this is the requirement that 

1068
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,280
international organization is 
pushing forward. 

1069
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,760
So that means that in many, many
events and many, many events, 

1070
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,960
there is no requirements for 
proficiency level. 

1071
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,880
There is no such a thing. 
For example, in the World Cup, 

1072
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,280
in the World Cup there is no 
such a thing, There is no 

1073
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,280
proficiency level because you're
selecting people according to 

1074
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,680
their results only, there is 
nothing else, you know. 

1075
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:58,080
So that's that's that's why one 
very interesting approach, but 

1076
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,240
unfortunately it's constantly 
ignored. 

1077
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,440
You know this is very advanced, 
you know, because your piece of 

1078
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,840
paper saying that you're good 
enough means nothing, totally 

1079
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:08,640
nothing. 
When you fly in in a Gallo with 

1080
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:13,520
122, it's meaningless which kind
of level you are or what what 

1081
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,920
you're able to do. 
It's a specific type of 

1082
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,240
experience in a specific 
environment. 

1083
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,720
So that's why World Cup is 
looking at people only based on 

1084
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:26,360
their personal results. 
So in FA, in in Catigo, in in 

1085
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,800
World Cup for years if FA 
license was not required, even 

1086
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:32,720
today we are not insisting on 
it. 

1087
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,960
Because the World Cup you will 
be accepted without license, but

1088
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:40,960
then you will be not ranked into
VPS because in order to be 

1089
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,600
ranked in the VPS in the world 
ranking system then you need to 

1090
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,280
go through certain steps, which 
is understandable because it's 

1091
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,440
governed by certain authority. 
That authority would like to be 

1092
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,240
for you to be a member of that 
structure, to be ranked, which 

1093
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:57,040
is not acceptable. 
But in the World Cup you can 

1094
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,880
compete easily. 
You can compete based on your 

1095
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,920
own results, you know. 
So what your experience, just to

1096
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,880
sum it up, is regulated, most 
likely in the local regulations 

1097
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:11,440
when this particular organizer 
asks for this and that in order 

1098
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,800
to accept you in the code. 
And there is no international 

1099
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:18,840
tool, there is no international 
supervision that can help you 

1100
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,640
overcome that obstacle if it's 
coming from the local rules in 

1101
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,400
certain. 
All right, so let me understand.

1102
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,880
If you get into World Cups, you 
need to have performance, you 

1103
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,040
need to show results. 
To show results, you need to 

1104
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,280
compete. 
And to compete you need to be at

1105
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,320
the mercy of people to let you 
in to compete. 

1106
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,400
Because there is no such 
structure which says that, yes, 

1107
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,160
you're allowed to compete on a 
fair stage. 

1108
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,840
So if in the beginning of your 
competition career, you do not 

1109
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:50,120
make a lot of friends and you do
not meet good people along the 

1110
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,080
way, it can actually hamper your
progress. 

1111
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,080
And there is no other way around
it. 

1112
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:57,840
Yes and no. 
Yes, because this is a 

1113
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,160
simplified version of the truth,
but no because there is a way 

1114
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:03,040
around. 
It depends of course on your 

1115
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,640
mobility and your motivation and
your financials of course as 

1116
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:11,600
well, because there are options 
of getting AFL license if your 

1117
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,560
missionary club is not failing 
to give it to you. 

1118
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:16,560
But they're painful, that's the 
problem. 

1119
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,840
It's a long process. 
So for example, you said you're 

1120
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:21,880
from India and did you need a 
lot of friends in order to get 

1121
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,280
one. 
So that means that if you do not

1122
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,000
have a lot of friends, you will 
not get one. 

1123
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,000
If you are constantly refused by
your national club, you need to 

1124
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,520
address Cibl or competition for 
Elena, which are a particular 

1125
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:34,760
case. 
It will come to the CIO Bureau 

1126
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:39,280
and CIO Bureau will decide to 
accept you despite the fact that

1127
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:43,240
you do not have because if it's 
seen as a malfunction of the 

1128
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:45,920
system. 
That's why I said CFL is very 

1129
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,320
positive because CFL of course 
is bind by the rules that we are

1130
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:54,480
making but we are also pilots 
and humans like you like whoever

1131
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:56,600
and we also understand all these
problems. 

1132
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:01,720
So CFL Bureau has the has the 
power to make a Bureau decision.

1133
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:03,840
It's not mine or yours, it's 
Bureau decision. 

1134
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:08,120
So it's a group of 10 people 11.
So do you have the power to say 

1135
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:13,880
OK due to malfunctions of Indian
National Club, Pilot B will get 

1136
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,640
the license or will not get 
licensed but it will be scored 

1137
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,640
and he will be accepted into a 
VPS and like this you will have 

1138
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:22,319
your. 
Results. 

1139
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:27,240
Listed in the in the VPS, yes. 
Yeah, now the dilemma comes. 

1140
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:32,040
I had a sporting license from 
the NAC, but category two in 

1141
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,439
Norway did not allow me to 
compete. 

1142
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,399
So if I don't, if I if I meet 
similar category two competition

1143
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,520
organizers in Spain or anywhere 
else in the beginning of my 

1144
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,080
career, how do I build up my CV 
that tells you guys that I am 

1145
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,560
good enough to be a World Cup? 
Like where where should I put in

1146
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,080
my? 
I don't like what I'm going to 

1147
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:53,960
say, but it is. 
The truth. 

1148
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,000
Is the only way for you is to 
for you? 

1149
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,720
For anyone is to search 
environments, countries and 

1150
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,359
competitions. 
They do not have such a rigid, 

1151
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:09,479
for example, I will tell you, I 
mean personal examples. 

1152
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,120
We are with my partner Martin 
Jovanovskiya, raising many cops 

1153
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,080
in our country in North 
Macedonia. 

1154
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:16,920
But we do not have this 
requirements. 

1155
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,120
It's not me, it's the national 
club. 

1156
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:21,840
And our national club is a small
structure, very positive, very, 

1157
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:25,600
very pilot orientated. 
We know the problems, we know 

1158
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,319
all of this. 
So in our events it's only if I 

1159
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:32,319
left that this requirement only 
because the events that we are 

1160
01:09:32,319 --> 01:09:35,520
organizing are are adjusted and 
we have full control over the 

1161
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:37,439
events. 
We have a professional staff 

1162
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,760
that is taking care about your 
level, you know. 

1163
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,200
So for me, you coming with IPP 
this and that or whatever, it's 

1164
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,279
meaningless documents you know 
because what is important for 

1165
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:50,040
me, it's truly to have you 
within a controlled environment 

1166
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,040
where you can perform within 
your personal limits and not a 

1167
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,600
single for me it's some kind of 
paper is meaningless. 

1168
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,800
But of course as you mentioned 
given then if it's linked with 

1169
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,440
your insurance and then you must
have insurance and this is when 

1170
01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:08,160
things are getting tricky, 
certain insurances are willing 

1171
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,640
to bunch of documents in order 
to be given to you and so forth 

1172
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,560
and so on. 
So basically if you ask me for 

1173
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,160
people that are not able to get 
some proficiency documents, the 

1174
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,920
correct way would be to have an 
FAA license, porting license and

1175
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:25,560
to have a proper insurance to be
able to join camps around the 

1176
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,920
globe that are not that rigid 
regarding the proficiency 

1177
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,600
document. 
No, true. 

1178
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,640
Well thank you for that clarity 
because this has eaten me up for

1179
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,960
so many months and I'm sure 
there are other pilots who are 

1180
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,520
in similar situations. 
So I hope this can you know, 

1181
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,240
address some of that. 
But anyways Goran, without 

1182
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,040
further ado I think we should 
quickly address one of the last 

1183
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,040
few topics before your time runs
out and I know you are on a very

1184
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:52,400
tight schedule. 
I I I wanted to get your idea on

1185
01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:55,880
the safety aspect and the 
security aspect of our of our 

1186
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,720
sport because you you have been 
at one of the forefront you have

1187
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:02,800
seen the sport from the top and 
you've seen how it has evolved 

1188
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,200
and everything. 
Yep. 

1189
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:10,600
My curiosity is some from the 
fact that aviation and fatigue 

1190
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:15,360
or pushing limits is is is a 
very risky combination. 

1191
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,320
You know, like humans are not 
born to fly. 

1192
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,160
However, we have these, you 
know, machines that that allow 

1193
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,640
us to do it. 
And when we talk about 

1194
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,520
paralyzers, like paralyzers are 
collapsible wings which can 

1195
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:31,120
literally go anywhere at a given
moment's notice of invisible 

1196
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,360
air. 
Paragliding World Cups have 

1197
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:38,800
gaggles which are pretty much 
getting aggressive constantly. 

1198
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,280
You know, people are pushing 
limits, hike and fly. 

1199
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:45,800
We see people pushing the limits
in in, in dangerous weather 

1200
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:50,440
situation, stuff like that. 
What ideology doesn't organize 

1201
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:55,360
or hold when it comes to making 
sure everybody is there to have 

1202
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,440
fun and compete but not pay the 
highest price? 

1203
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:00,560
Like how? 
How do you, as an officer 

1204
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,000
navigate that? 
Question. 

1205
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,880
Well, it is a tricky question 
because whatever answer I give 

1206
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:14,040
or whoever speak on the topic 
could be challenged or could be 

1207
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,000
even seen as a as a as a the 
wrong propaganda. 

1208
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:23,600
But my personal principles and 
what I truly believe is is 

1209
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,840
straightforward formula and the 
first of all there is no in in 

1210
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,160
in whatever, in whatever 
competition system doesn't 

1211
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,800
matter what the sport is. 
There is no such an system like 

1212
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,320
global safety umbrella. 
This thing is illusion. 

1213
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,240
It's not in the organizations 
with the with the maximum 

1214
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,240
investment like Formula One and 
similar, you can see that they 

1215
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:51,560
have small safety devices being 
introduced usually after some 

1216
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:56,760
kind of serious debacle usually.
So that that means that the the 

1217
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:00,960
absolute safety safety net 
around to run a person 

1218
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,720
practicing something is 
illusion, it's not existent. 

1219
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:09,360
So if you accept this then the 
things are getting simpler in 

1220
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:14,480
parallel in comps. 
This is very well established 

1221
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:21,280
idea and I think it's the only 
true safety measure in 

1222
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,040
paramounting corps and 
especially in the World Cup. 

1223
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,440
The only real safety measure is 
the pilot quality. 

1224
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:34,680
That's it, this is it. 
This I mean we I can speak about

1225
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,840
many other factors and for sure 
they will be valid. 

1226
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,480
But if you would if you need to 
point at the one particular 

1227
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:44,640
safety, safety factor, it's not 
the equipment, it's not, it's 

1228
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:48,840
not the weather, it's not 
because all of these things are 

1229
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:52,520
are predictable, all of these 
things you more or less you know

1230
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,160
what to expect with certain 
amount of of certainty, let's 

1231
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,760
say. 
But the pilot quality is 

1232
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,720
something that is 
straightforward. 

1233
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:06,360
You have high pilot quality, the
risk is getting minimalized. 

1234
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,800
You have a low pilot quality. 
The safety risk is maximized and

1235
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:15,400
that's you know and that's why 
World Cup is so meticulous, so 

1236
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:19,560
persistent into selecting pilots
based on results only. 

1237
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,680
We have a letter system. 
It's fairly complex, but it's 

1238
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:28,880
it's it's creating fairly narrow
windows of of similar quality 

1239
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:32,240
pilots. 
So it's not 12345, but in one we

1240
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:37,360
have 345 slots because those 
people are performing fairly 

1241
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,400
close to each other. 
It's A pilots, then B pilots, 

1242
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,880
then C pilots. 
These letters are coming from 

1243
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,240
their performance on other 
events. 

1244
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,360
We have a system covered. 
So when we select pilots, you go

1245
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,480
to the letter system and then 
when when we finish with the 

1246
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:54,000
letter C or D, which is the top 
pilots in the world, you know 

1247
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,280
for sure you may have an 
accident or for sure you may 

1248
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,320
collision and we have them. 
But you know that when you have 

1249
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:04,280
an accident it's not because the
pilot was not fit to the first 

1250
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:12,040
you know then when you that's 
why I'm so let's say fed up with

1251
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:17,400
this proficiency documents the 
real proficiency in modern cross

1252
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:21,760
country or I can fly as well. 
It's has nothing to do with 

1253
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,360
someone telling you you're good 
enough. 

1254
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,600
There is no such authority you 
know because when you are top 

1255
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,880
performing pilot in this moment 
in the World Cup for example, 

1256
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,720
there is no authority above you 
to tell you how you're good 

1257
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,320
enough. 
Who is the vet? 

1258
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:37,960
Who? 
Who is that authority by which 

1259
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,480
because the skill to fly 
aggressively, as you said in the

1260
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:46,560
in the company of 125 pilots 
around you in a fairly strong 

1261
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:48,840
and challenging weather. 
This is the ultimate level. 

1262
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,560
You know there is no more and 
you ended up there due to your 

1263
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,440
results. 
This is the the rest of it is 

1264
01:15:56,440 --> 01:15:59,840
like for any other sport, you 
know, choosing the site of 

1265
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:03,560
course. 
For example, the way how we 

1266
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:06,840
choose the latest world 
championship in France, it was 

1267
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,440
the on the only bid for that 
championship. 

1268
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:10,920
So basically there is no 
choosing. 

1269
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:13,760
This is this is it. 
It is a very famous, famous 

1270
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,560
place. 
It is a top organ. 

1271
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,200
Everything was in place, not the
place itself is challenging. 

1272
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:21,680
And then in such a place it's in
the middle of the OPS. 

1273
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,120
With such a strong weather, with
such a wind pattern, with people

1274
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:29,520
all over the globe coming into 
this open, you know the only 

1275
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:32,600
defense is the palatability, 
because the rest is so 

1276
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:35,640
challenging that you cannot 
cover it up with any kind of 

1277
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:37,600
safety measure. 
Not with the task setting. 

1278
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:39,360
You know, because it's 
complicated anyway. 

1279
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,480
This this reminds me of an 
incident Bora if you allow me 

1280
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:47,680
you know let's let's go back to 
2013 super fighter in Colombia. 

1281
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:49,400
I was reading on cross country 
magazine. 

1282
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,120
I was just researching about 
this episode and I said there 

1283
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:58,040
was a thermal of 19 meters per 
second that was being circled by

1284
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:01,560
a lot of competition X like 
triple C, like heavy Hot X. 

1285
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:06,520
And a pilot called Yasin Sevo 
basically deployed and almost 

1286
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:08,520
went in. 
The fire barely saved itself. 

1287
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:10,720
I don't know the whole story 
because I just read a very small

1288
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:14,280
X. 
Now of course any pilot who's 

1289
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:18,720
going into that thermal is a 
wanting to get get high quickly.

1290
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:21,080
So he wants to kind of you know 
push the limit. 

1291
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,520
He is in the competition. 
So he's definitely capable of 

1292
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:29,760
pushing as you mentioned that 
there is some quality as a 

1293
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:32,640
competitor, there are some 
things that you don't think 

1294
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,840
about because that organizers 
have taken care of. 

1295
01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:39,120
And then there are other things 
that you have to think of which 

1296
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,120
is really that is like you know 
am I hydrated, pushing, putting 

1297
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:45,000
my best foot forward, am I 
pushing the bar enough or or 

1298
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,440
like basically going out and 
putting in the hard work. 

1299
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:52,320
So when it comes to forgetting 
about what the organizers have 

1300
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:56,080
dealt with and then there is a 
thermal like that which is out 

1301
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:57,760
there in the open. 
Of course organizers can say 

1302
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,640
forget it, but if you want to be
the best, you cannot forget it 

1303
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,920
because that is allowed by the 
organization and same goes to 

1304
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,360
hide and fly in. 
Even in the Exalts like I'm not 

1305
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:10,160
going to shy away from taking 
aims because I think this area 

1306
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:14,400
is not addressed enough. 
In our in our sport Excels has 

1307
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:20,080
pilots taking off in absolutely 
crazy windy situations and 

1308
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,840
landing in rain and all of that.
But I don't blame the pilot 

1309
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,520
because the pilot wants to be 
the best in the world or like 

1310
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:30,000
you know when the glory. 
But if the organizer is allowing

1311
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:34,000
an aircraft and a pilot to put 
themselves in that situation, 

1312
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:38,960
then where are we drawing the 
line between risking at all just

1313
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:41,640
for the sake of fun? 
I mean, you're not even going to

1314
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,720
be a immortal Olympic legend by 
the end of, right? 

1315
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:46,640
Like, if, if, even if it was 
that. 

1316
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,640
Like there's nothing worth 
risking your very existence just

1317
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,760
to get on the podium. 
So it just blows my mind. 

1318
01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:00,080
You know, I'm really glad that 
you mentioned this example in 

1319
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:03,320
Colombia and Yasin Savov, 
because they will be comfortable

1320
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,520
enough. 
He's very good friend of mine to

1321
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:10,600
to to answer to you you know in 
one sentence which is well known

1322
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,840
sentence nobody can help you 
with your own stupidity. 

1323
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:18,000
You know this is it in in Yassen
sauov case it's simple as that 

1324
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,080
because it is not the term of 
what you're saying. 

1325
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:24,880
It is a big, big fire you know 
it is in those I mean in that 

1326
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:29,600
event our organizer I mean I 
respect that guy a lot that was 

1327
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:32,400
Lucha Jimenez the famous 
organizer for Columbia. 

1328
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:35,520
I like that guy a lot because 
he's very serious. 

1329
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,480
He's he knows what what he's 
doing. 

1330
01:19:37,480 --> 01:19:40,760
He knows the place he you know. 
So when you go to pumps you are 

1331
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,880
in good hands and then they have
a habit in Colombia due to 

1332
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:50,520
summer agricultural needs to to 
to burn the fields and it's 

1333
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,040
forbidden by the law. 
So the way how the public fields

1334
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,640
fields is a very criminal way. 
So they can be canisters of 

1335
01:19:57,480 --> 01:20:00,400
petrol. 
They put the petrol rapidly, 

1336
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,360
they burn all of it rapidly and 
then they disappear before they 

1337
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:05,040
go. 
They are caught by the police. 

1338
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:09,040
So every single day, every 
single briefing will show in the

1339
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:10,840
the, the locals. 
And they're really explaining 

1340
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:15,280
how crazy dangerous it is 
because it pulls into the air in

1341
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,920
minutes. 
It has this enormous amount of 

1342
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:21,360
fire and all the not terminals, 
but updrafts. 

1343
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:26,040
Going crazy speeds up and 
everybody's wanted not to do it.

1344
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,720
But then there are certain 
characters in our world like in 

1345
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,000
any other world that are begin 
to experiment that would be like

1346
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,320
as you said to push the limit 
beyond reasonable. 

1347
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:41,800
So send was just a centimeters 
close to pay the stupidity with 

1348
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:43,480
his life. 
Because when she opened the 

1349
01:20:43,480 --> 01:20:47,280
rescue and she opened the rescue
and he fell just the meters away

1350
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,600
from the fire, he could ended up
in the fire and my dear good 

1351
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,200
friend from Bulgaria could be 
just a burnt meat. 

1352
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:56,760
And then this is nothing to be 
addressed with competitions, 

1353
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:58,760
flying with organizers, with 
World Cup. 

1354
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:02,160
This is personal stupidity and 
decision making or one 

1355
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:05,160
particular guy, you know, and I 
hope that he will see this 

1356
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:07,280
because I I spoke with him 
yesterday. 

1357
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,280
I I hope that he will rethink 
his. 

1358
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:14,880
But in meantime he he became 
much more responsible and you 

1359
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,480
know, this kind of examples and 
this kind of extreme, extreme 

1360
01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:21,480
things like unique stuff and 
everything, you know, we have to

1361
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:25,080
be, we have to be real. 
I mean we have to understand the

1362
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:28,600
drive behind these things. 
You know you go into, I mean 

1363
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:34,680
Exop's is a radiator smoothie. 
This is, this is, this is. 

1364
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:39,480
I mean no Exop's is. 
We should never forget Exop's is

1365
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:42,440
not the event. 
Exop's is the product. 

1366
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:46,320
So this is event is a tool of 
the product, is a marketing tool

1367
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:49,280
of the product. 
So in the marketing sense, 

1368
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,760
everything is justified. 
But rules are known. 

1369
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:55,880
Marketing rules are known to 
every single participant. 

1370
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:58,920
Nothing to do with the results, 
nothing to do with with the 

1371
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:00,480
media director, nothing to do 
with the facts. 

1372
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:05,400
They are, they are, they are 
having a certain package offered

1373
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:09,040
to certain participants with 
with acceptance. 

1374
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,920
You know, the the, the, the 
story about safety is finished. 

1375
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:17,200
You know, because those people, 
those sportsmans that absolutely

1376
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,920
are one of the best in the world
with their commitment, with 

1377
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:23,560
their capabilities, with their 
knowledge, they are literally 

1378
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,880
accepting the risk including 
life threatening situations. 

1379
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:31,440
So you know, it's not much 
different than I know 24 hours 

1380
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:33,520
of lemon races at the time or 
whatever. 

1381
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:36,200
You know, it's just pushing to 
the extreme limits and extreme 

1382
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:39,160
everything. 
So yeah, you you're not forced. 

1383
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:43,000
It's not a circuit, it's not 
Olympic, it's it's kind of 

1384
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,200
marketing campaign for a 
product. 

1385
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,640
So yeah. 
I love your honesty, Golan and I

1386
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,120
wish every single guest was able
to do this so honestly because 

1387
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:55,960
people don't talk about this 
aspect of the sport very openly.

1388
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,560
So thank you so much for 
bringing out that perspective, 

1389
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:02,320
so transparently insane amount 
of value to our sport and the 

1390
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:05,480
audience. 
I quickly want to dive into the 

1391
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:09,080
manufacturer's side of this from
the PWCA because as you you know

1392
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:12,320
it's it's there written in the 
beginning of your homepage that 

1393
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:17,120
PWCA is helping R&D of that. 
We have multiple marketing 

1394
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:21,520
campaigns run by top companies. 
You know, we have short nose, we

1395
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,280
have wave design, we have RAST 
coming in and we have like, you 

1396
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,000
know, different kinds of things 
when it comes to level playing 

1397
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:34,640
feet and just human factor. 
Are we eventually ever going to 

1398
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:39,240
look at standardization of 
equipment to a point where it 

1399
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:43,040
literally is the same? 
Like it's a problem like you 

1400
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:46,800
have the budget, you have tech, 
but there is a standardization 

1401
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:50,720
which does not deviate. 
However, in this sport, every 

1402
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,080
other time we have like Gambit 
coming in saying that ours is 

1403
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:56,960
the fastest and there are some 
people who are improving it. 

1404
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:59,280
And then there's Jim coming in 
and saying that hey, this is 

1405
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,800
revolutionary. 
So what what question it puts 

1406
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,680
me, puts to me is that if I am 
going out on market and trying 

1407
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:11,360
to buy a glider, is the glider 
making me win or is it my own 

1408
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:13,840
things? 
And then where is the fairness 

1409
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,640
of competing coming in? 
If you can throw some small 

1410
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,080
light on this because I remember
the time when when Gambit and 

1411
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:23,360
Spectra were not allowed in one 
of these comps and I don't know 

1412
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:25,800
if it was FAI or if it was civil
or something, but there was a 

1413
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,320
lot of talk like why aren't we 
allowing people to bring in. 

1414
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:32,440
So it's it's like if you can 
throw some light on this aspect 

1415
01:24:32,440 --> 01:24:35,840
of the sport. 
Yeah, there are a few 

1416
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:38,200
interesting topics within this 
question. 

1417
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,640
Cabit was one one of I was in 
the middle of it and I believe 

1418
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:44,640
we did the correct thing, but 
that was not one of the 

1419
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:46,320
brightest moments in pirate 
history. 

1420
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:50,400
So we did the right thing, but 
it was painful and ugly, so I 

1421
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:54,040
hope it will not repeat itself. 
Gambit was banned. 

1422
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:58,840
It was in the in the World 2019 
and it was just out of the comp 

1423
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,680
just before the comp with the 
controversial vote of team 

1424
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:05,360
leaders. 
Because what they want, what I 

1425
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,160
want, what we wanted is to avoid
the mistakes from the past and 

1426
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,440
something so controversial is 
winning the event. 

1427
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:17,000
You know, like we had in Super 
Final 2010 with the 1st edition 

1428
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,680
of of Two Liners, you know, when
shockers were won because you 

1429
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,720
know it was such a difference, 
it was such such, such. 

1430
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,680
I know how to say it was futile,
it was pointless, calm, you 

1431
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:31,200
know, it was so superior over 
the others that it was totally 

1432
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:33,800
pointless to. 
It was disappointment instead of

1433
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:37,080
bigger celebration. 
So this thing about how you 

1434
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:43,800
regulate these these enormous, 
let's say maybe progress points 

1435
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:47,280
in certain if they happen in a 
short amount of time and then 

1436
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:49,880
you're just faced with them, 
it's a it's a very big topic. 

1437
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:52,520
There are some tools around some
rules this event, but it's not 

1438
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:58,840
well still controversial. 
So this this could be, I mean 

1439
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:04,640
honestly this could be qualified
as a failure of of of the system

1440
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,960
having this happening, you know 
these things should be clarified

1441
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:13,000
much before. 
So the second part of your 

1442
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:18,800
question which is 
standardization, you know in in 

1443
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:21,480
a philosophical sense it that 
goes to the to the theory of 

1444
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:24,880
relativity. 
You know that far because what 

1445
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:29,360
you said a fully standardized 
equipment for in order to to 

1446
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:33,240
measure the performance of a man
or woman or human it's of course

1447
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,720
it's possible but in this moment
it's a parallel reality. 

1448
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:43,320
It's not something that these 
people now in the sport and 

1449
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,600
these companies now being in the
forefront of development, are 

1450
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:49,560
appealing to have. 
You know, it's not about is it 

1451
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,440
possible or is it right. 
It's about what kind of 

1452
01:26:52,480 --> 01:26:55,760
government or what kind of 
parliament you have and which 

1453
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:58,000
kind of laws are produced by 
those people. 

1454
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:01,200
You know, in some different 
setup of people, not in 

1455
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:03,880
different times, in the very 
same time, in some different 

1456
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:07,000
setup of people, it could be 
easily possible. 

1457
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:08,680
There is nothing preventing us 
from doing it. 

1458
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:12,960
So there is also it's important 
that there is no right or wrong.

1459
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:17,040
Vote are right or vote are 
wrong, but I think both are 

1460
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:17,960
right. 
Why? 

1461
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:22,560
Because ultimately standardized 
systems are working in many 

1462
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:31,960
sports but with a huge list of 
factors that needs to be 

1463
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,240
achieved before you reach that 
standardization. 

1464
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:38,840
Because standardization in a 
way, in a small spot like ours, 

1465
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:42,840
and it's, I mean in the easiest 
way to explain, is decreasing 

1466
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:47,840
the intrigue and is decreasing 
the the, the, the, the, the 

1467
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:51,800
fame. 
And in this, this glory around 

1468
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:55,240
something, you know, 
standardized things are simply 

1469
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:58,840
not so attractive to the 
companies, to the pilots, to 

1470
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,120
anyone. 
I will give you, I will give you

1471
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:07,480
one very good example how crazy 
part of the world it is And when

1472
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:13,040
we hit the answer gate in 2013 
super final, it doesn't matter 

1473
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:17,240
when you hit the answer gate, 
you know it was very ugly story 

1474
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:21,720
when obviously the winning 
glider and the glider that is 

1475
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:27,840
that is how to say the best ever
is absolutely out of words. 

1476
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:33,320
It's, it's cheating. 
So as organizers, we are facing 

1477
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:36,600
with a very difficult situation 
where we need to disqualify 2/3 

1478
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,000
of the field. 
Yeah, half of more than more 

1479
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:40,640
than half of this. 
And we did it. 

1480
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:42,800
We did it. 
You know, it was a very 

1481
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:44,240
controversial thing. 
It was. 

1482
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:47,080
I was under huge pressure from 
the organizers, from the, from 

1483
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:51,080
the manufacturers, from ozone, 
from from from New York to 

1484
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:53,240
penalize. 
It was a big, big passive. 

1485
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,400
I'm telling you this to 
understand why standardization 

1486
01:28:56,400 --> 01:29:00,120
is not good. 
People having those lighters, 

1487
01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:05,240
they were cheated, so they paid 
for something that was a product

1488
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:09,200
that were light. 
It's certified. 

1489
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:13,240
So they were victims. 
The owner of those under the 

1490
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:18,160
time he said OK, we lost this 
game, we're going to repay to 

1491
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:22,560
every single pilot that suffered
out of his loss. 

1492
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:25,360
So they tried to solve the 
problem. 

1493
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,840
There was many of intermediate 
steps. 

1494
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,240
In the beginning it was no, it's
not cheating and listen. 

1495
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:32,240
But finally they ended up 
cheating. 

1496
01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:36,520
So he offered refund to every 
single pilot willing to be 

1497
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,160
refund. 
You know how how many pals 

1498
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:43,520
requested refund and give the 
value back 00? 

1499
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:48,120
Not a single one. 
Because this paragliding and 

1500
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:49,760
this is very important to be 
properly understood. 

1501
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:54,400
This is like a drug having a 
better flying machine became a 

1502
01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:58,440
better glider, being superior 
over others, because everybody 

1503
01:29:58,440 --> 01:30:01,760
knew ozone is a very capable 
company, having very capable 

1504
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:04,160
people, he said. 
So they managed to certify the 

1505
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:06,120
divider after a certain amount 
of time. 

1506
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,240
So those ladders, those those 
people, they did not lose 

1507
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:12,720
anything. 
Finally after a few months they 

1508
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:17,320
they were on certified ladders 
and they became, but for that 

1509
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:20,520
particular super final and their
trip to Brazil, all the 

1510
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:24,520
accommodation all the air 
tickets, whatever is the ability

1511
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:26,840
to keep and everything went to 
the bin. 

1512
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:33,280
So if you carefully analyze this
you will see how much this push 

1513
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:37,560
of these people now these days 
is against standardization. 

1514
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,840
They would like to have the 
latest thing they would like to 

1515
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,800
have at the vintage. 
You know, there is this famous 

1516
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:48,760
book from Dennis Page and 
different ones flying on the 

1517
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:51,280
last page. 
Among the last pages, there is 

1518
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,960
one one like small chapter 
saying what is the easiest way 

1519
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:56,960
to win a comp. 
You know, what is the easiest 

1520
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:59,960
way to win the comp. 
You can take a look later on to 

1521
01:30:59,960 --> 01:31:05,120
have the best equipment 
standardization with my 

1522
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:06,800
sentences there is patient, you 
know. 

1523
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:12,320
So the standardization is 
cutting adoption And if it's 

1524
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:17,400
standardized, yeah. 
It brings me back to the point 

1525
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:21,800
where FAI went wrong. 
Guran, if we are eventually 

1526
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:26,040
bringing cash as king into the 
equation, there is going to be 

1527
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:29,600
no hope, man. 
It seems to be like a lost 

1528
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:34,960
cause. 
Well, I'm not a pessimistic, you

1529
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:40,320
know, for me, you know we are 
leaving the, as I said many 

1530
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:43,040
times during this interview, you
know, we are living the real 

1531
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,600
world so we are not operating in
some kind of bubble or 

1532
01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:48,560
something. 
You you're exposed to all the 

1533
01:31:48,560 --> 01:31:52,240
natural movements of society and
economics and whatever it is. 

1534
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:55,080
So we're just practicing 
something within a well known 

1535
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:59,680
structure and this Nobel known 
structure is one of the reasons 

1536
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:01,440
why things are like they are 
now. 

1537
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,480
That's why I said many, many 
times, you know in certain 

1538
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:09,960
circumstances in certain setup 
of people, you know now on 

1539
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:15,960
Thursday in two days I'm going 
to Korea for the serial Bureau 

1540
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:20,120
meeting which is in the primary 
of course when the all the 

1541
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:24,000
rules, Category 1 rules are 
reviewed. 

1542
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:28,680
So you know the proposals this 
year are so radical like never 

1543
01:32:28,680 --> 01:32:31,840
before. 
So as I said certain amount of 

1544
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:35,680
things with certain amount of 
people can take very, very 

1545
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,920
different direction. 
So now we're discussing some 

1546
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:43,040
some very serious departure from
the competition world that like 

1547
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:48,080
we we have now it's you're going
into possibly into individual 

1548
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:50,760
world championship and people 
who compete on the individual 

1549
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:53,640
basis not related to the nations
and many many other things you 

1550
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:56,680
know. 
So from that perspective, things

1551
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,160
could be changed in any 
direction at any time, but. 

1552
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:03,440
Yeah. 
If this is one thing that I'm 

1553
01:33:03,440 --> 01:33:06,280
super thankful for you this that
is your honesty and your and 

1554
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:08,480
your braveness with coming with 
it. 

1555
01:33:08,480 --> 01:33:11,920
And you know that basically all 
I'm trying to say is that if we 

1556
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,360
keep on pushing into this, this 
will turn into endless 

1557
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:16,080
conversation that is so 
enriching. 

1558
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,280
And because you're bringing it 
in such good manner, it's like, 

1559
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:21,560
yeah, it's it's a gold mine for 
for me. 

1560
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:25,200
And I'm pretty sure as well. 
But you know, we're since we're 

1561
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:27,800
closing in on time and I 
understand both of us have like 

1562
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:30,840
very limited time in this one. 
I just want to get your closing 

1563
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:33,640
thoughts on what's coming, 
what's next? 

1564
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:35,960
What is the future of Peter 
Lucia Watch? 

1565
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:45,160
Why should we be excited? 
Well, you know World Cup again, 

1566
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:48,240
it's not institutional. 
The World Cup doesn't want to 

1567
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:52,640
have a next best thing. 
We don't. 

1568
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:59,360
We we we do not want that. 
You know this is, this is, this 

1569
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:03,360
is, this is something that I 
mean people that know me and 

1570
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:05,640
that they know the the way how 
the World Cup operates, they 

1571
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,120
will fully understand what I'm 
saying. 

1572
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:12,480
You know we reach the, we reach 
the the point of maturity and we

1573
01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:15,640
reach the point we reach. 
We have a running system and 

1574
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:19,960
what we would like to have and 
to provide is to have 

1575
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:26,520
professional serious organizers 
providing professional serious 

1576
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:29,520
services for the competitors. 
That's simple. 

1577
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:33,080
We do not need the next best 
thing like now we will have, I 

1578
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:37,640
don't know, satellite, 
artificial intelligence, live 

1579
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:41,400
commentary from the stars. 
We are. 

1580
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,040
We are not in that sort of 
business and we do not want to 

1581
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:47,880
be in that. 
What we would like to have is to

1582
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:51,600
have a decent media coverage 
when people are informed what's 

1583
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,080
happening what is the latest in 
the party. 

1584
01:34:54,080 --> 01:35:00,720
I think for example now in the 
Super final in in in Brazilian 

1585
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:03,680
in just few days. 
I I truly believe we have a 

1586
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,640
sensational thing by any 
standards which is finally we 

1587
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:12,320
will have Gene Genius 5 
competing in parallel with also 

1588
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:18,760
submarines on on a on a proper 
scale not one or two or three. 

1589
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:22,120
So it's available commercially. 
So you know this kind of things 

1590
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:24,680
has nothing to do with the 
biggest next thing. 

1591
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,960
This is just ordinary sportsman 
world. 

1592
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:30,840
That's what I'm looking for. 
You know what we would like to 

1593
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,320
have is to have a decent output 
from our core business which is 

1594
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,240
organizing comps on the highest 
level. 

1595
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:39,360
That's it. 
Nothing to do with the flashing 

1596
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:43,000
stuff, nothing to do with some 
break new land or whatever. 

1597
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,400
We are bringing breakthroughs in
in in on the technical level of 

1598
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:49,720
the flymaster with always having
the latest software, always 

1599
01:35:49,720 --> 01:35:53,640
having the latest retrieval 
system, always having whatever 

1600
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:58,760
is latest within the technology,
but making comps more enjoyable 

1601
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:03,000
and from the rest of the world. 
It could be just things like all

1602
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,000
the time, before you know it's 
always the same thing. 

1603
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:08,440
If you go, you have a comp, you 
have the winners, you have the 

1604
01:36:08,440 --> 01:36:11,040
podiums, you shake hands and 
then again and again and again. 

1605
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:13,000
This is called maturity of the 
sport. 

1606
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:15,360
This is called maturity of one 
organization. 

1607
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:17,240
Nothing sensational, just doing 
it. 

1608
01:36:18,720 --> 01:36:22,760
Wow Goran, I love your honesty 
and basically I mean I know I 

1609
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,720
keep on saying this but Long 
story short, the professionalism

1610
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:28,880
you have, the drive you have, it
explains why you have been at 

1611
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:31,920
the forefront of this for 30 
years and I wish you all the 

1612
01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:34,800
luck and to be honest, the 
questions endless. 

1613
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,680
Which means we will bring you. 
We would love to bring you back 

1614
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:40,760
for another episode hopefully 
sometime very soon. 

1615
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:43,160
Keep rocking. 
You're an inspiration. 

1616
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:44,360
Thank you so much. 
You're. 

1617
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:45,920
Welcome anything.