You know, there are multiple ways to start an episode.
And of course when I think of bringing out a new episode, the
whole idea is to try and make it exciting, Try and make it very
enriching for the audiences, get them captivated from the word
go. I mean, all of these marketing
strategies and everything that's out there on Internet, how to
how to make your podcast successful, how to make an
episode really do well. How to choose up your guests.
And like, there are multiple algorithms to do things right.
But there's one algorithm to do things right which has kind of
been there since ages, and that is by speaking out the truth,
unfiltered and unhindered. Information sharing has always
won the day. And this episode is a perfect
example of how having a heartful conversation, a conversation
without limits, can add so much value to the topic that you're
discussing. And what gives me pure joy about
this one is that it comes straight from within the person
who is basically running the show for when it comes to racing
paragliders. Today we're going to have a chat
with Goran Dimaskovski. The.
President of Paragliding World Cup Association.
So today, Goran and I basically sit together and talk about what
goes behind the scenes and what allows us as humans to fly
together in numbers. And not just in numbers, like in
multiples of hundreds, sometimes all together, pushing the
limits, pushing the speed bars, chasing the glory and trying to
get on the podium. But honestly, if you ask me, I'm
not that experienced in podcasting just yet, but from
whatever I've had, I'm yet to come across a guest so open and
so bold and so truthful about whatever he's bringing on the
table. So without further ado, I'm not
going to spill any beans here. This one is a gem that you
shouldn't be missing if you are like me and you like racing
paragliders up high in the sky. When we all start our quest to
touch the sky with glory, I have to bring out a disclaimer here.
Not the best audio quality because of some technical
glitches, but hands down one of the best contents out there that
I've made so far. Keeping in tune with our plans
of covering PWCS. This is episode #3.
The first one was the first time ever pre World Cup organized in
a new location in India other than beer.
The second one we went all the way to the continent of Africa
where one of the most amazing tour guides in our sport had
organized a pre World Cup in Kenya.
Wings Among Wildlife was a theme of that one, and Nikolai told us
how to navigate the skies of Kenya while enjoying the usual
safari and the holiday. And this time we keep it simple.
We get to find out all that you need to know on what goes behind
running the show and how and why we should stay excited about
what's coming. Talking about staying excited, I
must mention the next episode in the series of paragliding World
Cup is going to come from a pilot who has pushed the limits
for as long as she knows it. And she comes across to share
her stories about how she navigated life and yet managed
to build a successful carrier racing paragliders.
And with that being said, it's time to tune in and share some
knowledge in the world of paragliding world.
CUPS. Gordon Deniskowski, thank you so
much for doing this. Welcome to paragliding apps.
We're so happy to have you here. Pleasure is all mine, as usual.
All right. Go on.
So just for our audiences, you know, what do you do and why do
you do it? Well, running the World Cup is
quite interesting thing to do in life because it's kind of a
small escape from the reality. But on the other hand, diving
into parallel reality I can see because with the development of
the sport, running the sport association and being in the
focal point of all happenings is paragliding basically is getting
a very serious activity covering many aspects of day-to-day life
and covering many responsibilities.
Because what we are doing now is reflecting on thousands of
people. In the early days it was not
that complex, but I can say that these days what we are doing is
moving literally tons of people around the globe.
All the financial responsibilities, all the safety
responsibilities, all the sport responsibilities, everything is
so complex that yeah, it's getting a serious activity and a
job. I can imagine.
I mean you're making hundreds of human fly together and and not
just fly like you race together. It sounds very exciting and I
can only imagine the amount of responsibility you have your
hands. But Goran, if I have to you
know, give our listeners some idea if you can tell a little
bit about yourself because we see that you are one of the
longest serving presidents of PWCA.
So how did this aspect come into your life and basically how did
you grow into and yourself along the the association into into
something as successful as this? Well, that was not so exciting
story. It's fairly regular life path.
Let's say I was starting to fly quite early in the 90s, early
90s. My first flight was in 91, but
really starting to get some knowledge and some progress in
92 and quite interesting in this sport, competition was alive
from day one. Even those days with all these
first attempts in the late 80s and a little bit in the
beginning of the 90s. It was not something that cooked
for too long before competitions got into the focal point.
It they became the place when you can really materialize your
dream of flying. Competitions were the place when
you can learn, when you can see the latest advancement, when you
have these stars, 5 stars all over the place.
So early in my days, my focus on flying.
I was competitive by myself by those days anyway, because I
grew up in aviation. I was very lucky to start quite
in my early childhood days with the Missionary Club in Macedonia
country. It was very vivid organization
with many activities. That was maybe the golden era of
aero clubs worldwide. With all the financements from
the state, with all the support, it was fairly attractive for
everyone. So I went to aero modeling, then
a little bit of parachuting, tailplays, motor flying, all
sorts of flying and then finally paragliding became something
that is so independent and very attractive to me.
And I said I was competing already in some of previous
sports. So it was a natural way for me
to to be interested in comps and even those days paragliding
World Cup at that age was most advanced.
The people being involved, they were the ones.
So it was not some kind of bunch of Renegades improvising
something that was more attributed to the to the FBI
those days because if they were, they were applying the concept
of what they learned from the other comps.
It was over regulated. It was not focused on the pilot
himself. It was a much wider focus on
national collapse, on glory, on ceremonies, on flags.
Trying to sell this popularity to the world Paranoid Cup did
something totally different. It was focused on the pilot,
which was me in my own eyes. It was the place to be when you
can really materialize your dreams and since 94, very early
I became a a member of World Cup but it was just a not really
vital but by today's standard it could be vital because I've
never attended the World Cup. I have never been there, but I
was a member. You know, you pay a fee and you
have all these materials coming to you and step by step, step by
step by step. In 99 I I joined my first World
Cup in in in Slovenia. One of the best parts of those
days when March is to organize that one, we were accepted and
refused in the last moment because it was overbooked.
So it was a big disappointment and that's how it started.
So my attraction to World Cup was basically because it was a
true competition structure that I was looking into.
Wow. You know this reminds me very
simply of the of the saying where there's a builders from
what I see three decades of experience you have definitely
chosen the right path and come so far and of course are helping
us show, I mean showing the light for all of us to to you
know go out and chase the glory ourselves.
Goran, just out of curiosity when you say that you know PWCA
was more pilot focused and it was more like you know
performance focus rather than adding on to the glamour and all
of that what what does a typical day at PWCA look like?
I mean, I'm not saying of course it changes as the seasons and
times, but usually what is the direction of this association
like how do you guys plan out your workings and what keeps you
guys busy? You know, World Cup is a kind of
pilots association. So it's by it's the tutor, by
its mortality of existence, it's fairly loose organization, you
know, so you have members that are collected around common idea
and it's a French based association.
The French law is very liberal. It's updating quite early 19/03,
so it's not a century old. So this frame is giving us an
opportunity to act in a quite flexible manner and that is
reflecting in the day by day work and how we are doing it.
So what what is typical for us is that in in the widest frame
we are collecting the input from the competing pilots through the
system selection. We have a direct exposure to the
best pilots in the world. So over the season, over the
years, doesn't matter. You're collecting all these
official, unofficial, all sorts of input and you are structuring
them within the internal steering body that we have,
which is the part of the world committee.
This is a structure that can be up to 13 people.
In this moment we are 10. This is international based, of
course. There are people from all over
the world, from Argentina to United States to Switzerland.
Doesn't matter. Diversity, basically.
Yes, here's diversity. Diversity, also in the terms of
background, All of us are pilots and all of us went through
serious challenges competition wise.
But some of us are organizers. Some of us are more, let's say,
administrators. Some of us are just pure
competition pilots, Plenty of profiles.
So one typical day is based on communication in between me
because I'm also doing the event management from being a
President of the World Cup. So I have the global vision of
the near term future as well as the long term future.
By near term, future is something that is going about
three years ahead. And by long term future is
something that is going about, say five to six years upfront.
So you know, on my daily, in my daily work, I'm communicating.
The greatest amount of communication is going with our
secretary, Laura Seppet. Miss Miss Laura Seppet, yes,
she's our main administrator. She's doing all the work related
to to selections, to related to payments, to organizing,
communication with the pilots. Well, on my side I'm doing
something different. I am more into envisioning the
season direct negotiations with organizers.
Selecting them, provided them with the basic info, providing
them with all the requirements that we need or what they should
ask from us, You know, this kind of thing.
So this is like a global picture.
On the, On the more practical note, it's about 3:00 to 4:00
working hours per day for me, a little bit more if not much more
for for Laura, for our secretary, because she needs to
process what I just throw to her and then all, all of the system
is, you know, very transparent. We shared with this World Cup
committee, as I said, for some kind of final approval or for
some kind of synchronizing if needed.
And it goes like that day by day.
So it's quite never ending story.
I can imagine, and it makes me want to thank you again for
taking time from such hectic schedule and sharing the story
with our listeners. That does mean a lot to us.
Just want to mention it again, moving on.
You know, I've heard this from a lot of pilots like competing is
is kind of a human trait. Like we, we like competing and
even before PWCA came into existence, there were some
modalities in place which which allowed people to race and
compete inside in the air. I'm just curious what basically
was the need to to to create the existence of considering that
there were already options. Why?
Why did we? A lot of pilots who really want
to push felt like creating PWCA and making it happen.
You know, this is an interesting story, but nothing sensational,
basically. Just kind of it's, it's kind of
let's say a needed evolution that came through revolution.
I mean this is the the simplest definition here.
So that was something that was truly needed, but it was not
happening, you know, and I already mentioned that in the
beginning and the problem is that in the beginning of the
sport World Cup was kind of missing or it was somehow in the
air because you know this impulse to create it was
generated in the Central European countries, in the in
the developed countries from like Switzerland, Italy,
Germany, these kind of of places, they have a a strong
sports structure anyway. So it was like a natural
development for somebody practicing the the sport to have
this will or to have this aim to practice the sport in a in a
well organized structure. So this is nothing to do with
paragliding particularly. This is just a way of thinking
and way how whoever is dedicated enough to certain activity would
like to perceive himself. So this needs to be seen as a
true sport is doing something in the in the in a real structure
which is well organized which is on the topic which is not this
this focused let's say with some kind of trivial non necessary
things was very alive among people in those days.
So the the generation of stars that we know these days like I
don't know Hediger or all these people from other days post
calls made plenty of them including Mr. Jean.
Plenty plenty of people. French guys Olivia Neff all
these guys you know they were around here with some others of
course that maybe they're not coming to my mind.
So these people were just somehow unsatisfied with the
with the way how sport is presented, practiced and
organized. So it was like a small push
within this pilot group with this let's say well educated or
or well motivated pilot to those days to create a structure that
will be truly dealing on a on a simple professional enough
focused way with the execution of having competitions.
So that's how it started. So it started in these few
countries. It was not really let's say
super successful in the beginning the the, the, the
environment and the motivation was on the high level since day
one. But of course the tools, the
knowledge, the way how, for example the the way how they
choose places, the way how they choose.
Organizers would be, let's say questioned these days like for
example, like say it's a kind of dark spot in history.
Is that even on the first year of doing this professional
super, they had the fatality unit, they went to Owens Valley,
which was the final of this unit.
It was the most important event. But choosing such a place for
final in those days, with those wings, with those known pilots,
every bit of knowledge was over optimistic.
It was, I don't know exactly, but I believe it was a
reflection for King Lighting because it was a famous
destination. It was something that everybody
is dreaming of and of course it was too challenging for for the
people participating. And that event some somehow
through shade in the in the early beginnings of of the
Parliament World Cup. But they recovered quite fast
and then with few between few years, especially after the the
circuit was established in a way and especially when the tandem
of Sergei Murillo and the Christian Quest, the French
guys, they came into the management, including Laura
Sepide that I already mentioned. So this structure, it was
running well, but these three people truly, truly moved the
World Cup to the most advanced organizing party in the Arabic
world. Just want to take the names of
those 3 legends who actually made it happen.
Can you please repeat that for our listeners?
Yes I believe that in the order of importance.
I mean this is, I mean it's it's not that I'm taking side but
it's it's it's it's difficult to to separate among these three
people. So in my my eyes for sure I have
my preferences personal but for the sake of history there are
three of them. Are equally important because
Xavier Murillo he's he started quite early with paragliding.
He was luckily A photographer so he documented everything.
So we here I have in my eyes here I have literally more than
10,000 slides from from his all of that material is hanging
around. You know all sorts of photos
from World Cups, from world based paragliding from
monitoring all sorts of everything.
So and that guy was truly living this world bringing some
experiences from from other sports.
As I said he was quite involved into all penis and doing some
kind of sport events. Even before paragliding he was
very focused. He pushed the because you know
this in paragliding in those days it was quite a strong
localized influence. You know, doesn't matter it was
too international. There was always this Central
European countries pushing towards themselves.
So he's French by the way. So he he was the first one to
realize the importance of truly international.
So he was the one who truly pushed World Cup out of European
boundaries. Honestly not with some you know
pretending doing it. And the the the way the the
structure of the rules, the structure of the system that we
have now, the Super final concept of all those things are
inventions. Of that particular person, the
second one is Christian Quest. He's also French man.
He's he was the president of the World Cup in those years, but
that was like one part of his job.
He brought to the World Cup the GPS verification and he was the
one who was constantly, constantly pushing for technical
innovations. So that's why I mean in that's
why World Cup was at the forefront in those days with
with scoring with verification instruments.
There was this famous MLR instrument that was developed in
France where pretenders were directly participating in
producing the 90s first GPS unit that is dedicated to part of
lighting that is now like every single manufacturer having you
know. So all these things came
together and not to be forgotten.
I have mentioned a few times Laura Sekat she's one of the
most important persons in the in the in the World Cup.
You know this is kind of person that is such a driving force,
such a responsible person, such a willing to keep this
communique going on that since a very long time she is, you know,
absorbing all the positive and negative feedback, do working
with it, preparing the correct information for us and for the
pilots and like secretary, but she's much more than that.
She was. She's present since long, long
time and significant. Oh, well, I mean, I, I feel
blessed to have someone like Laura in our sport, you know,
with that kind of driving force and actually making things
better for every other pilot like me and and out there like
listeners. So great, Thank you for that
recap. You know, I think it was very
essential to get an idea about what basically went behind the
making of such a successful organization.
But this brings me to a point, Cora, I'm very curious.
You know, like past 5-10 years we have seen the sport kind of
leap and bound in in various directions.
You know there's like I can Fly is going massive.
Manufacturers are putting in a lot of their resources there.
The research and development is going there.
We we had Mads synagogue the Danish guy come up with his own
league saying that I'm going to let out the open class lighters
compete themselves and now we have SRS which is coming in with
you know two liners. So there are people who are very
motivated to kind of push things in their own direction and and
find their own ways to fulfill their curiosity.
But when it comes to pure aviation or pure fun, do you
think paragliding has or is evolving in the right direction
or is it basically kind of you know, heading as per where the
money is basically because hiking play is a lot about money
and the glamour and all of those ideas.
So what's your take on that? I mean, this is a very general
question and could be applied to any sport.
You know, it's not the key point to understand these days, and
I'm saying this with full responsibility, you know, is to
to finally understand that paragrading is nothing
exclusive, it's just another sport and it's just rolling on
the basics like whatever is rolling these days.
There is nothing specific or nothing extraordinary in the way
how one sport is executed to the 21st century.
The concept is same because if the sport is considered a self
development then for sure you can find it in any kind of
sport. If it's considered as a business
opportunity, of course it is because majority of sport needs
equipment. Equipment is always commercial
and this is pushing the sport into commercial sphere.
If it's considered, I know as doesn't matter which aspect you
take. Whatever you have in parliament,
you have it. Whatever sport on the planet.
The problem that we are still it's underestimated in providing
is the profile of people and the psychological profile how we are
approaching the sport. Usually the people are
approaching the sports from certain affiliation towards some
activity. But there are many other factors
like the future, the potential, the is it sufficiently
professional so I could commit my entire life to it and many
many other things. In paragliding all those doors
are open. Maybe not that the level like in
the other sports, but the key point is that we are still we
are getting majority of participants and this approach
is a life through long long long period of their sportive life
through simple affiliation to something.
So it's even today the emotional part of joining paragraph is
much stronger than whatever parameter is important for
joining the sport. You know when you're joining the
tennis this day when you have a kid and when you're joining the
tennis the the perspective is trace, it's clear there's no too
much of variation left or right. So you know what is amateur
development, what is semi professional, what is
professional, what is teaching to be into administration or to
go into professional schools for for trainers or for some staff
doesn't in parameting. Those things are still not
mature enough despite the fact that we should be to arenas
because they're smaller sports, much smaller sports that are
much more structured. So to to precisely answer your
question, all these deviation or all deviation, all these
directions better, all these directions that we have in our
sport are totally understandable.
You know people are looking for some kind of personal to to to
project themselves into something that they like.
So I can have a very good platform.
It's truly good platform because this is the in my personal
opinion and I believe this is something that is overlooked
into a presentation that I can fly and in understanding of I
can fly, I can fly out of all the barrier blinding they
managed to connect the true sportsman profile of a true
sportsman with flying. Because you cannot practice,
hike and fly on the high level, especially these days if you are
not truly defined as a sportsman, which means strong,
sufficiently strong, disciplined, no alcohol, no
drugs, no no, all this crap that is poison the sport these days.
So this connection is attractive.
But the problem with my perspective is despite the
growth I can see the limitations and limitations are always the
same in paragbiting and I can find the sufferer of it the most
which is dispersed type of competition.
You know hacking flag will always attract people because as
I said it's a self challenge and self challenging.
Sport is the ultimate driving force apart from some financial
side effects in highly paid sports.
So this self challenging will always be around and people will
join it to prove worthy to themselves.
This is also the core of racing, you know people are racing not
only to win over others, this is just a psychological element how
you prove yourself sufficiently worthy in what you're doing.
So this is something that is very important to understand.
And then this kind of this kind of, you know, we saw that with
acro a long time ago. It's over, this is over, that is
over, this is cross country is over.
Acro is now the thing and then acro shrink, shrink, shrink,
shrink, shrink, shrink to exclusivity that is you know
it's and how to say it's it's so minimal that it's almost, I
don't know it's it's it's kind of paragonal disaster that acro
shrink to what is it today you know taking into consideration
the effort and potential. You know, so you know this hype
is going all the time around. You have the same with accuracy.
It was that was the ticket to Olympic sport that is this, this
is the thing. It is where you have spectators
and then you go to accuracy competition.
There are no spectators because it's endlessly slow, you know,
it's the competition format. It's endless slow.
Tonight we have these hundreds of people participating.
But that hype that this is the thing just shrinking down, you
know So it is happening all the time because we are addressing
you to you to assist it in in maturity we are addressing the
height of parabolic in taking something from something else.
If now we have development of I don't know as you mentioned
competitions with two liner serial class virus.
So this is you can see this on the on the Facebook you can see
this on the forums. There are always some people
saying, I think this is it, this is it what?
This is just another form of competition when you compete
against somebody else to prove yourself better than himself.
As simple as that. You know, it's like, no, you're
going to fishing and you catch a bigger fish than the guy next to
you. So it's wrong to think that this
or that or whatever in paragliding will take over
compared to some other branch of the sport.
If we are doing a good job, there will be people motivated
to do this or do that, you know, it's so simple.
So in reality what I think is that all these directions of
development are healthy because through experimenting you will
find finally what is proven to be worthy or what is not.
Because otherwise it's the only hypothetical and I cannot see
danger into having, I don't know, something disappearing.
But the only thing that I can see as danger is the the spread
of fonts in too many directions, because people are still
majority of competition should be financed by serve parties,
not by the participant himself. And if you have too many of
directions that you need to invest, this is this could be a
problem. But that's a revolution.
So it will select, I think, the best sports and best people by
itself. Wow, I love your perspective and
how realistically you explained all of it and it does resonate
with me as well. You know that when when when
humans try to push the limit everyone will explore their
curiosity in their own intimate manner and it eventually is
helping us grow and hopefully, fingers crossed you know it
brings out something good. But yeah if I have to ask you
and and this is this comes from curiosity from me but then that
when when I started flying competing has been in like yeah,
I love competing, I want to compete.
So if there's a there's a newbie pilot and you have cross country
paralyzing rocking your world, can you please explain us what
are the options to go out and chase racing?
Like you know, what's what's FAI, what's SRS, what's PWCA,
what's Continental championships like?
If you can just briefly tell us what is the road map a 0 hour
pilot can take towards going ahead and achieving glory on the
podium. Hello, this is a good one and I
would like to make it comprehensive but most likely
it's impossible so but I will try for sure.
So progress in paragliding these days is.
I mean it's the road map is fairly straightforward and easy
but it's unfortunately there are many obstacles because this
logical progress of pilot is manipulated by many structures
and many organizations so it's not that nature anymore.
So there there, there are barriers that are artificial and
unfortunately someone who is truly committed usually
especially if he's not from countries like I mentioned
before with with a well developed structure like
especially France or Switzerland.
I will say because this one are still taking a proper care of
developing a proper sportsman in the in the paragliding sense of
word. If you are not into this region
of the world, then you're usually exposed of some kind of
domination of schools and schools doesn't want, I mean.
Independence. Yeah, I know what you mean.
I feel it. I don't.
I don't want to be. I mean it's honestly it's the
truth. I as a student have faced the
problem so and we are all about being being honest and knowledge
here and so it doesn't doesn't harm.
Yeah. Please go ahead.
Schools would like to have a constant flow of students being
around, being the basis of their school or shop or whatever they
are lending. This one doesn't matter.
So this is kind of progressing, moving from that controlled area
is basically losing customers and it's quite serious in
certain countries, especially for example in Germany and this,
this, this behaviour model is basically preventing people of
getting right perspective on things.
It's not so bad, you know, I mean I would like to say this is
quite good because and not everyone is fit or tailored for
competition lifestyle. Somebody is perfectly happy with
club level lifestyle, but many, many pilots we are losing in the
competition hand because of this happening around.
Then if you are lucky enough to go through the system and if you
have enough enough stamina to to to push yourself beyond the
boundaries that are around you. So then the typical way how to
progress is to start with some cross country flying.
I mean, doesn't matter is it individual or is it within some
control structure. But cross country flying that is
let's say ambitious when you're pushing your boundaries because
it is like learning the alphabet and then learning the alphabet
will give you enough tools to enter competition first of all.
So it's this is the the key point entering competitions
because you can spend all of your life flying without not
entering a single comp. And why it's important to enter
comps. This is this is a bit of strange
phenomenon in paragliding. The competitions in paragliding,
especially average to good ones. They are the the best
environment for flying because their their entire structure
around the single pilot. When you are for example living
let's say in some place that is not very developed, you have
million question Marks and you have million of things that you
need to figure out yourself. Starting from the logistics,
starting from metal or starting from what is allowed, what is
not allowed. Airspace is million of of of
things that could be overwhelming because all these
things are just distracting you from doing what you want.
Then you go to a competition that is proportional to your
skill and to your level that you will not be exposed to some
crazy advanced stuff. If you're noise pilot, you need
to position yourself where you belong and then what you will
see there. It will be an organized
structure when there is someone thinking about every aspect of
your day. When to start, when to be there,
when to have a briefing, when to to open the window.
What is the metaphor today? To pick you up, To give you
food, To give you all the informations, To take care about
injuries, to take care about the pet staff, to take care about
good staff, To give you an advice?
You know, suddenly if you are in that environment, you will
improve on your progress by multiple times because simply
you are practicing the sport. When everything is organized,
yeah, this is the benefit. This is the benefit of low
profile comps. You know, this is the benefit
about from the serial glass comps, nothing else.
You know because competition as I said before is a activity that
will personally change. Challenge the pilot himself.
No one who is truly competitor will stay at the level of ENC
gliders. No one.
It's not about the marketing, it's not about who wants what,
because competing with yourself is, is is a push towards
perfection and perfection. It's difficult to be satisfied
simply as a competitor. Then you know that there is
something more demanding, more attractive, more performance,
more, more, more, many, many more.
And that's why there is no, there is zero risk about this.
What I said before about losing this or that because if you
would like to achieve part of the excellence it is only one
way. And that way is to become an
independent pilot, to become someone who knows how things are
done, who is self confident, who is able to to to fly hundreds of
kilometers to fly many hours in. The shortcut to reach them is
basically competing on high level.
This is it's so you know this is really important to be properly
understood. The competing in the World Cup,
competing in category one. This is not the ultimating.
This is like a school for you to become so good pilot that you
can do things on yourself in such a perfection and and this
learning curve will be much shorter than if you're trying to
do that by yourself. So the next day when you have
this fantastic day and then you have this weekend for your work
without the family, when you go to hill and when you have this
epic one one day in a life opportunity, then you go, I
don't know, Kisha in Brazil and you have this 600 kilometers
record flight. Every single pilot who is, I
mean, maybe to be too optimistic to say or too too glamorous to
say, but every single pilot who's important, he went through
some kind of competition shaping, you know, because this
is the way how you really progress. 100% and I think it's
so easy to resonate with that because when you compete with
yourself that is when you become a better version of yourself and
and of course as you said competition entry and
competitions is basically trying to push the limits first from
within and then with with people around you.
But you know I I think the best out on on the structure of comps
because as as like we know that there's FAI and then there's
PWCA and then there's SRS and then there's other things.
So if you can briefly just let us know what are the options for
for like what are all of these things and how do you understand
what they are basically? OK, let's start in the inverse
way. The weakest thing in our sport
is administration, You know, this is and that's what you're
saying. Now this question is, I'm having
this question quite often in different forms.
It is really important to to know that this question would be
unnecessary if the administration was like it
should be for such a developed sport.
You know the administration. I when I first I would like to
address the FAI which is International Federation of Air
Sports based in Lausanne in Switzerland.
A very serious organization which is the the most important
thing that is not well known is that FAI is Olympic recognized
federation. Only handful of federations in
the world are Olympic federations or Olympic
recognized. So basically the sport is
governed by the FAI. They have an authority on that.
It's given to them by it's not they didn't take it.
It is given to them by the Olympic Committee basically.
So in the ultimate level, FAI is the organization that is
governing World Championships and this is the only only
organization in the world that could grant the title of world
champion. So when you win, whatever else
you can be, whatever, but you cannot be a world champion.
You can be a World Cup champion. You can be dissident, but you
cannot simply it's it's like a trademark and it's it's
exclusivity and this is the the most important thing and this is
the most glorious thing in in the terror sport and it's not
well known, which is the failure of administration, because this
is the ticket. For many top sportsmen, access
to the funds, to the government's fund, to the
Olympic committees in their national countries.
So to answer precisely your question on the top of the
pyramid should be it's not good, but it should be the world
championship in whatever discipline paragraph, because
this is the place when you are getting a champion, when you are
getting the best in the world. So these events, these events
are called Category 1 events and the sub organization FAI that is
governing this is CIBL which is commissioned within the FAI
which is working specifically for paragliding because the FAA
is as many commissions looking for arrow modeling for
ballooning for what Cibl is governing the the the
paragliding sport. So it came landing as well.
So in CIBL we are we are organizing category once and
vice president there. So I'm quite familiar with the
topic as well. So category one, Worlds
Europeans, Pan Americans or Par Asians doesn't matter are the
places that those are the costs that are should be on the top of
the pyramid. This system dissolves lower into
category two events. Category Two events are all the
others that are CFL recognized. In professional World Sanctioned
events, when you apply with your application, you are basically
giving a guarantee that you will apply certain standards.
So category two is nothing more than basically a binding
correlation in between two parties that the rules
established by Seattle will be followed by the organizer.
There is a fee for that which is modest but doesn't matter.
It's organized and then with getting a sanctioning.
Simply you are recognized as organizer of the comp under
certain standards and rules in this category two events.
In this category Two events. All the events that you know
that are good enough are category two including World
Cups including SRS, including whatever.
All of these events they fit into the profile of category two
events sanctioned by Cibl. So now basically the story ends
here. So you have category one and
category two events. This is the this is the
structure and this is the cost. So in category 2, events
organizers are basically very free to use the rules in a way
they see appropriate. Basically there is a precise
line in the rules saying that category one which is world's
and Continental championship rules should be followed by
category two or as far as appropriate, which is giving you
quite loose format so you can do whatever you want.
So now there are many sub organizations that are doing
what they're doing. World Cup is the most important
and for sure most developed and biggest one and with longest
experience into this. So we established the structure
totally independent and we are truly working on our
independence through from CIVL and from the FAI because this is
the healthiest way how the sport would not be misled into the
mistakes that first of all led to formation of the World Cup 30
years ago. So independence is very
important for the World Cup. So we have our own rules that
are quite often a model for Category 1 rules because
category one is 1 per year and World Cup is 10 times per year.
So there is much more place to practice.
We have much more knowledgeable base to to get some technical
stuff for formulas whatever and we have much more experienced
field to experiment with. So then we have a pre World Cup
concert which is 1520 events per year that you can also do
things. So basically World Cup is the
driving force before behind whatever is happening in
parabolic world and this is the you know because whatever you
take from the way how it's scored, from the way how it's
monitored. We were The Pioneers in the in
the life tracking for sure the first life tracking was applied
in the European Championship in Austria.
I mean at that level but stop there.
And then the entire development thanks to huge commitment from
Flying Master, our partner in the World Cup we develop it to
the levels that are today, You know it's it's state-of-the-art
technology you know. So this is the importance of the
World Cup. It's the rest on the other hand
is a new system of pumps, a new organization.
The the main difference that is important to understand is the
World Cup is an association, which means it's an open
structure when people can can directly contribute to decision
making. While SRS is a centralized let's
say privately run and owned organization and it's it's it's
a different structure and it's differently based but the way
how it's executed its copy paste from the roadside which is
cycles of four or five events during the year and then final
or or doesn't matter how they're calling it.
So basically this is just another form of of sport class
competition because competition, sport competitions everywhere
around the world, many of them so and then there is many spin
offs. So there is a paragraph in Grand
Prix, the Polish Castro organizing this, which is very
similar to to SRS. It's another fairly successful
modality how for this intermediate level of events,
serial events and yeah, more or less this is the structure.
So you have this basic structure, category one,
category two events, and then you have these different types
of organizations and organizers that are fitting into that
structure by creating their own identity.
Got it. So so just to sum it up
basically FAM is sitting at the top of the pyramid and and
define like who gets to crown the world champion glory and and
FAI is not-for-profit as well you know that's the they are
being run solely for the sake sport and then that is category
one. Once you go one tier down in
category 2, you have these allied organizations which can
be for profit as well as non profit.
And then these are these organizations allow people to to
come in and have their first competitions or experience what
competition structure is like. And and that can be SRS, that
can be PWCA, that can be you know, the other one, the Grand
Prix as you said or even maybe whatever maths the Danish guy
started. So all of these things come in
category two under all right, makes sense, makes sense.
So basically when we talk about category two, is there the civil
is still defining the rules. Basically is is there a watchdog
sitting up top and saying this is how it is supposed to, it
will be run or is like this is how it is supposed to be run by
you do your own thing kind of like what's?
Yes. You know, this is, yeah, it's
it's coming in circles. You know, as I said,
administration is the weakest point.
So CIBL is is a very have to say very positive structure.
You know it's a it's a structure of the concept and how it is
executed in the especially in the last 10 years maybe
something like this it's like it should be.
So this governing of the category two and one events in
general is is done in a fairly successful way.
It's luckily CABL followed the concept of World Cup and then
about 6-7 years ago we or they does a veteran part of it.
So maybe I should say we to avoid confusion with the World
Cup. I was a day so agreed to have a
permanent employee. So this is Miss Elena for one of
us competition coordinators. So now they have someone
employed and paid to run the same stuff that Laura is doing
for us, which is governing and controlling and following all
the event sanctioning payments, following the rules.
We have a platform which is called EMS which is.
So you can see that on the cavilcomps.org when this
platform is, I mean Elena is a moderator there.
So it is kind of her baby with our investment and you know so
all these things are making Seattle a perfect controlling
body. But of course but but the amount
of job and amount of malfunctions is it's it's
enormous. You know because for sure many,
many events are small local town hill events.
You know, 20 people that would like to have some kind of event
somewhere, they need some kind of officialized form for
sponsorship, for whatever. So they are applying for
sanctioning. They're not so motivated,
they're not so serious, they're not so ambitious.
And then those events, for sure they have quite flexible rules.
But in general, luckily due to the tools that we have in
Seattle like the Paris and the world blocking system, there are
many filters how these kind of events are not influential for
the entire picture of the of the competition scene.
You know, so they're kind of by the system, they're kind of
discarded in a way maybe not really discarded, but let's say
they're dissolved into the mass of higher quality events.
So they're becoming insignificant, you know.
So if I say that CA will have a few, I mean that have a massive
control, it would be over ambitious.
It has a certain amount of control.
It has a certain amount of projection, the power and to
following events as we go higher in the pyramid.
If you go towards more important events like big national opens
or like 3 events for the world for Europeans, for category
ones, so then this control and this influence of Seattle is
growing and it's becoming a crucial element.
And then in category one is ultimate because in category one
events CLL could stop the event with declare it and call it.
I mean it has a full control. So in other words, in simple I
mean this is an elaborated answer but in simple words CLL
has a serious influence and when you're applying for category two
it should be followed. The rules are defined, the
variations are they are existing, but they are somehow
still usually within some acceptable means.
Got it. Just to clarify on one point,
category one are the big ones. Category two is basically a
blanket acceptance for every competition that is supposed to
go under civil. So be it PWCA, be it SRS, be it
drop free, if they want to go under civil, they will go under
category. Exactly.
Awesome. OK, great.
I'm very curious about the licenses.
You know, I've heard a lot about sporting license and then
there's IPPI and then there's Appi, you know, doing their own
thing and of course the insurance and everything that
comes with it. We have seen Gavin talk on his
podcast about, you know, how important it is to carry the
right insurance. So what like I think there are
three big licenses that we're talking about right now.
One is APPI, one is IPPI and the other sporting license.
Which license gives you access to category one and how to
basically navigate that landscape?
OK, so now we're entering the tricky zone when when there is,
I mean or maybe it's better to say intentionally Gray zone not
by myself but by the by the existing system.
And what I will say it will be seen as fairly controversial by
seats to people. But my my my position on this is
well known in any kind of forum when I'm around and when I'm
asked I'm given the same answer because it's it's quite matured
opinion. I worked.
I'm working with this since extremely long time.
I have a sufficient resources and information to to to to know
exactly what I'm saying. Whatever, whatever license apart
from FAA sporting license is existing is first of all
unnecessary. It's partial manipulation, you
know in a in a bad sense of the word.
Now in a positive sense, it's manipulating people in
organizations and it's only those other types of licenses
that exist existing because as I said in the beginning, because
of the weakness of CML or FAI to make a correct system around the
globe, This is based on a structural problem.
This is not based of incapable people.
This is based on a fundamental conflict between the FA statutes
and how this organization is working.
Because FAI is I mean it's a little bit going away from the
topic but it's important to I will try to to make it
comprehensive. It's important to know that FAA
basically is federation of national Arab club so national
clubs organizations in in in countries so in in countries is
recognized by UN for in a country and then this this
organizations so-called national clubs are members of FAA.
So FAA is basically a compilation it's it's it's
assume of its members not to go into many details.
What is the most important thing is that when you're a national
club the the main article defining your relation with FAI
is that you are governing the sport on your territory word to
word. So that means the nation of club
of Bolivia is governing the paragon sport in their own
country. So they should follow the rules
of FAI and this. But then of course if they're
not following how you penalize how you you know this is this is
unrepleted territory. So basically when a national
club is paying fees to the FAA he's becoming customer.
He's becoming a member of FAA and with buying his membership
he's getting the authority of the over his territory.
This is not so far away from from perhaps some failed of this
is not so far away from the dark ages of human.
Very true. Very true.
Development, you know so. And then when a certain national
club is buying the territory, then he can do whatever they
want. And then they are imposing all
sorts of crap to the pilots, to the realizations regarding
licenses, for example. In civilized world they're for
free. In not so civilized world
they're for cheap. In a brutal world they are very
expensive. So because for national club
that is not well integrated into society, when you have a bunch
of people that just they can see an opportunity in this, they say
OK, you would like to go to the World Championship.
So now you have to pay €1000 for the license.
So you're not getting the license, you're not getting the
license, so you're not going to the World Championship despite
the fact that you have sponsors that you have money that you
have with them. So now if AI is, is is willing
to support the system because it's working for them, because
their goal their their their theoretical goal is the sport.
But of course there is another goal to run the organization in
order to run the organization with investment.
Investment is coming from the national clubs and some other
sources, but national clubs are primary source.
And then it's conflict of interest and it's game over, you
know, So that means that certain people in certain countries
doesn't matter how good they are, how loyal they are, doesn't
matter they cannot get FA license.
They cannot participate in cut once and this is disaster, you
know, so and that goes in all possible directions.
So in certain countries when the national clubs are strong, they
are not giving the right people to compete in Category 2.
So it's getting even worse. So then it's a massive push
towards certain people to buy licenses or to do I don't know
what in order to be able to get the license.
So there is a filter imposed by certain countries.
So that is giving opportunity to third parties to introduce the
licenses that will fulfill this gap.
And certain people would like to have something in order to do
something. You know, this is, this is
ridiculous. You know it's.
Messed up. It's messed up.
Yes, it totally messed up in reality.
And you know, I'm not criticizing this like a clever
one. People that are within these
problems, they are all very aware what I'm saying, including
the FBI including CIVO all of us, we are trying to find the
solution. The solution is complex because
of this because of the statutes are are defined and it's kind of
a deadlock that people are not able to to go out of it.
So you know, but we can witness this in the modern world, you
know, neutral flag, Olympic flag is existing in order to cover
the conflicts, in order to cover the irregularities, but it's not
working well. So in FA is case there is FAI
flag, there is FAI. So if you're not able to get the
license, your country FAI should provide the one for you because
it should be a supervising power.
But then it's also not working well because when FAI is
providing to someone, it is interfering with the national
club and they don't want to do it.
So basically that door is closed as well in a way, in a way or
there are too many of obstacles in order to get the license in
that way. So back to the original
question, if the AFA license is working well and it's really
important to have it because it's not, it's not the document,
it's very this is something that is important to be proclaimed
this to really know what is it. If a license is something like
paying sanction fee for category two, if a license is not how
good you are, this is not proficiency license.
If a license is a document, when you're taking one, you're
basically admitting the rules basically.
So having the AFAI license, you're accepting the sporting
code, so you know anti doping policy, fair play policy, this
all all the policies, positive policies in the sports defined
by the statute and you're accepting the rules under which
competitions are executed. That's it.
And people are manipulating this and because there is no
sufficient amount of knowledge if the job of FAAA to provide
sufficient knowledge to travel around the world to educate.
But due to many reasons that are happening.
So in simple words, whatever it is a PPIIPPI, tomorrow it will
be some other eye, doesn't matter.
This is kind of vacuum filling tools.
I have nothing against these people, I have nothing against
their work. Furthermore, I really appreciate
what they are doing because they are not one to be blamed because
they found a spot that they can manifest their capabilities and
they can protect themselves but. The real reason is what I just.
Got it. Now this brings me to a dilemma
because the cash is king is a big problem in a lot of
industries, you know, and especially when it comes to
competing and and and human versus human finding reward and
and all of that like cash negates that.
And when we bring in technology that also of course, you know,
takes away a little bit of fun. But having a sporting license
is, is that enough to get you inside category two or do you
need an extra document on top of it?
Because you said it's not a proficiency license, it's just
the ethos and ethics and and it just fixes that.
So where do Appi and IPPI licenses come in combination
with Sporting license? Well, that's a question of
proficiency, as you said for sure.
But then also for that there is a solution which is part of the
program developed here, here to go and I, you know, I mean, if I
go into details to explain all of it, I will need three days to
to speak, which absolutely not not not feasible let's say, but
everything that we have my, my, one of my first sentences was
that there is nothing specific in paragon that everything is
invented, everything is invented.
You know the proficiency levels are defined for paragraph.
Everybody knows the Provence, how to enforce and then again
the deadlock. Because national club is the one
who needs to establish the system in their own country
territory where they can provide the document to the pilot.
What is their proficiency level according to the national
training program. That's simple.
It's it's it's FAI job through the national club.
You are living in Pakistan. You are.
You're having your national club.
The national club is active in your country.
They have a of of instructors, whatever they have schools, they
have a program. Then the student is going
through the program is getting the proficiency license of the
country which is defined which is this level.
That level doesn't matter how it's called in which country.
And then with that level synchronized with FA levels, you
go to the comps. So it is FA license and
proficiency license. That should give you a place
into comp, yes. I have a question and this
question is coming from villain because this has happened with
me. I'm an Indian pilot and I I
basically you know, moved to Europe to try and chase my this
whole ecosystem racing paradigms.
India has the Knack Aero Club of India and that Knack has the
capability to give you a sporting license, but it does
not give you a proficiency license.
That's simply because they're like, we don't have a structure
to figure out, but you tell us how many hours you've flown.
We're all flown. And if you know some good pilots
or like some some known names who can vouch for you, we'll
issue you a sporting license based on goodwill.
That's fine. Like, you know, if you're
friends with everyone and if you're kind of keeping people
smiling and happy, deal. You have a sporting license.
Now I I walk out with a sporting license in Europe and I and I
walk into into Norway and I say that, hey, here's my sporting
license, you have a FAI category two competition.
Let me wait, they don't let me in.
Now where did I go wrong and what could a person in my
situation do better to have a chance to compete in a category
two competition in a first world country?
That's a good question and but there is answer.
There is no defined answer on that because you're not the only
one. We have these experiences all
over the world. It's happening every single day
to any poster. Is one of the one of the
countries with most frequent problems related to this what
you just explained. So the correct, the correct way
is to check them in, which is not really easy to correct the
requirements in certain country before applying to the comp and
to fulfill according to their local regulations.
That's why we have local regulations in every single
event, at least now it's mandatory.
With EMS, you must put them in EMS in order to have this event
sanctioned in the 1st place when Someone Like You or me going to
a strange country or unknown country will be informed
properly. So in reality, in order to get
the VPS points in order to get to be recognized within the
frame of EAVL, there is nothing more that you need apart from
the sporting license. So this is the requirement that
international organization is pushing forward.
So that means that in many, many events and many, many events,
there is no requirements for proficiency level.
There is no such a thing. For example, in the World Cup,
in the World Cup there is no such a thing, There is no
proficiency level because you're selecting people according to
their results only, there is nothing else, you know.
So that's that's that's why one very interesting approach, but
unfortunately it's constantly ignored.
You know this is very advanced, you know, because your piece of
paper saying that you're good enough means nothing, totally
nothing. When you fly in in a Gallo with
122, it's meaningless which kind of level you are or what what
you're able to do. It's a specific type of
experience in a specific environment.
So that's why World Cup is looking at people only based on
their personal results. So in FA, in in Catigo, in in
World Cup for years if FA license was not required, even
today we are not insisting on it.
Because the World Cup you will be accepted without license, but
then you will be not ranked into VPS because in order to be
ranked in the VPS in the world ranking system then you need to
go through certain steps, which is understandable because it's
governed by certain authority. That authority would like to be
for you to be a member of that structure, to be ranked, which
is not acceptable. But in the World Cup you can
compete easily. You can compete based on your
own results, you know. So what your experience, just to
sum it up, is regulated, most likely in the local regulations
when this particular organizer asks for this and that in order
to accept you in the code. And there is no international
tool, there is no international supervision that can help you
overcome that obstacle if it's coming from the local rules in
certain. All right, so let me understand.
If you get into World Cups, you need to have performance, you
need to show results. To show results, you need to
compete. And to compete you need to be at
the mercy of people to let you in to compete.
Because there is no such structure which says that, yes,
you're allowed to compete on a fair stage.
So if in the beginning of your competition career, you do not
make a lot of friends and you do not meet good people along the
way, it can actually hamper your progress.
And there is no other way around it.
Yes and no. Yes, because this is a
simplified version of the truth, but no because there is a way
around. It depends of course on your
mobility and your motivation and your financials of course as
well, because there are options of getting AFL license if your
missionary club is not failing to give it to you.
But they're painful, that's the problem.
It's a long process. So for example, you said you're
from India and did you need a lot of friends in order to get
one. So that means that if you do not
have a lot of friends, you will not get one.
If you are constantly refused by your national club, you need to
address Cibl or competition for Elena, which are a particular
case. It will come to the CIO Bureau
and CIO Bureau will decide to accept you despite the fact that
you do not have because if it's seen as a malfunction of the
system. That's why I said CFL is very
positive because CFL of course is bind by the rules that we are
making but we are also pilots and humans like you like whoever
and we also understand all these problems.
So CFL Bureau has the has the power to make a Bureau decision.
It's not mine or yours, it's Bureau decision.
So it's a group of 10 people 11. So do you have the power to say
OK due to malfunctions of Indian National Club, Pilot B will get
the license or will not get licensed but it will be scored
and he will be accepted into a VPS and like this you will have
your. Results.
Listed in the in the VPS, yes. Yeah, now the dilemma comes.
I had a sporting license from the NAC, but category two in
Norway did not allow me to compete.
So if I don't, if I if I meet similar category two competition
organizers in Spain or anywhere else in the beginning of my
career, how do I build up my CV that tells you guys that I am
good enough to be a World Cup? Like where where should I put in
my? I don't like what I'm going to
say, but it is. The truth.
Is the only way for you is to for you?
For anyone is to search environments, countries and
competitions. They do not have such a rigid,
for example, I will tell you, I mean personal examples.
We are with my partner Martin Jovanovskiya, raising many cops
in our country in North Macedonia.
But we do not have this requirements.
It's not me, it's the national club.
And our national club is a small structure, very positive, very,
very pilot orientated. We know the problems, we know
all of this. So in our events it's only if I
left that this requirement only because the events that we are
organizing are are adjusted and we have full control over the
events. We have a professional staff
that is taking care about your level, you know.
So for me, you coming with IPP this and that or whatever, it's
meaningless documents you know because what is important for
me, it's truly to have you within a controlled environment
where you can perform within your personal limits and not a
single for me it's some kind of paper is meaningless.
But of course as you mentioned given then if it's linked with
your insurance and then you must have insurance and this is when
things are getting tricky, certain insurances are willing
to bunch of documents in order to be given to you and so forth
and so on. So basically if you ask me for
people that are not able to get some proficiency documents, the
correct way would be to have an FAA license, porting license and
to have a proper insurance to be able to join camps around the
globe that are not that rigid regarding the proficiency
document. No, true.
Well thank you for that clarity because this has eaten me up for
so many months and I'm sure there are other pilots who are
in similar situations. So I hope this can you know,
address some of that. But anyways Goran, without
further ado I think we should quickly address one of the last
few topics before your time runs out and I know you are on a very
tight schedule. I I I wanted to get your idea on
the safety aspect and the security aspect of our of our
sport because you you have been at one of the forefront you have
seen the sport from the top and you've seen how it has evolved
and everything. Yep.
My curiosity is some from the fact that aviation and fatigue
or pushing limits is is is a very risky combination.
You know, like humans are not born to fly.
However, we have these, you know, machines that that allow
us to do it. And when we talk about
paralyzers, like paralyzers are collapsible wings which can
literally go anywhere at a given moment's notice of invisible
air. Paragliding World Cups have
gaggles which are pretty much getting aggressive constantly.
You know, people are pushing limits, hike and fly.
We see people pushing the limits in in, in dangerous weather
situation, stuff like that. What ideology doesn't organize
or hold when it comes to making sure everybody is there to have
fun and compete but not pay the highest price?
Like how? How do you, as an officer
navigate that? Question.
Well, it is a tricky question because whatever answer I give
or whoever speak on the topic could be challenged or could be
even seen as a as a as a the wrong propaganda.
But my personal principles and what I truly believe is is
straightforward formula and the first of all there is no in in
in whatever, in whatever competition system doesn't
matter what the sport is. There is no such an system like
global safety umbrella. This thing is illusion.
It's not in the organizations with the with the maximum
investment like Formula One and similar, you can see that they
have small safety devices being introduced usually after some
kind of serious debacle usually. So that that means that the the
absolute safety safety net around to run a person
practicing something is illusion, it's not existent.
So if you accept this then the things are getting simpler in
parallel in comps. This is very well established
idea and I think it's the only true safety measure in
paramounting corps and especially in the World Cup.
The only real safety measure is the pilot quality.
That's it, this is it. This I mean we I can speak about
many other factors and for sure they will be valid.
But if you would if you need to point at the one particular
safety, safety factor, it's not the equipment, it's not, it's
not the weather, it's not because all of these things are
are predictable, all of these things you more or less you know
what to expect with certain amount of of certainty, let's
say. But the pilot quality is
something that is straightforward.
You have high pilot quality, the risk is getting minimalized.
You have a low pilot quality. The safety risk is maximized and
that's you know and that's why World Cup is so meticulous, so
persistent into selecting pilots based on results only.
We have a letter system. It's fairly complex, but it's
it's it's creating fairly narrow windows of of similar quality
pilots. So it's not 12345, but in one we
have 345 slots because those people are performing fairly
close to each other. It's A pilots, then B pilots,
then C pilots. These letters are coming from
their performance on other events.
We have a system covered. So when we select pilots, you go
to the letter system and then when when we finish with the
letter C or D, which is the top pilots in the world, you know
for sure you may have an accident or for sure you may
collision and we have them. But you know that when you have
an accident it's not because the pilot was not fit to the first
you know then when you that's why I'm so let's say fed up with
this proficiency documents the real proficiency in modern cross
country or I can fly as well. It's has nothing to do with
someone telling you you're good enough.
There is no such authority you know because when you are top
performing pilot in this moment in the World Cup for example,
there is no authority above you to tell you how you're good
enough. Who is the vet?
Who? Who is that authority by which
because the skill to fly aggressively, as you said in the
in the company of 125 pilots around you in a fairly strong
and challenging weather. This is the ultimate level.
You know there is no more and you ended up there due to your
results. This is the the rest of it is
like for any other sport, you know, choosing the site of
course. For example, the way how we
choose the latest world championship in France, it was
the on the only bid for that championship.
So basically there is no choosing.
This is this is it. It is a very famous, famous
place. It is a top organ.
Everything was in place, not the place itself is challenging.
And then in such a place it's in the middle of the OPS.
With such a strong weather, with such a wind pattern, with people
all over the globe coming into this open, you know the only
defense is the palatability, because the rest is so
challenging that you cannot cover it up with any kind of
safety measure. Not with the task setting.
You know, because it's complicated anyway.
This this reminds me of an incident Bora if you allow me
you know let's let's go back to 2013 super fighter in Colombia.
I was reading on cross country magazine.
I was just researching about this episode and I said there
was a thermal of 19 meters per second that was being circled by
a lot of competition X like triple C, like heavy Hot X.
And a pilot called Yasin Sevo basically deployed and almost
went in. The fire barely saved itself.
I don't know the whole story because I just read a very small
X. Now of course any pilot who's
going into that thermal is a wanting to get get high quickly.
So he wants to kind of you know push the limit.
He is in the competition. So he's definitely capable of
pushing as you mentioned that there is some quality as a
competitor, there are some things that you don't think
about because that organizers have taken care of.
And then there are other things that you have to think of which
is really that is like you know am I hydrated, pushing, putting
my best foot forward, am I pushing the bar enough or or
like basically going out and putting in the hard work.
So when it comes to forgetting about what the organizers have
dealt with and then there is a thermal like that which is out
there in the open. Of course organizers can say
forget it, but if you want to be the best, you cannot forget it
because that is allowed by the organization and same goes to
hide and fly in. Even in the Exalts like I'm not
going to shy away from taking aims because I think this area
is not addressed enough. In our in our sport Excels has
pilots taking off in absolutely crazy windy situations and
landing in rain and all of that. But I don't blame the pilot
because the pilot wants to be the best in the world or like
you know when the glory. But if the organizer is allowing
an aircraft and a pilot to put themselves in that situation,
then where are we drawing the line between risking at all just
for the sake of fun? I mean, you're not even going to
be a immortal Olympic legend by the end of, right?
Like, if, if, even if it was that.
Like there's nothing worth risking your very existence just
to get on the podium. So it just blows my mind.
You know, I'm really glad that you mentioned this example in
Colombia and Yasin Savov, because they will be comfortable
enough. He's very good friend of mine to
to to answer to you you know in one sentence which is well known
sentence nobody can help you with your own stupidity.
You know this is it in in Yassen sauov case it's simple as that
because it is not the term of what you're saying.
It is a big, big fire you know it is in those I mean in that
event our organizer I mean I respect that guy a lot that was
Lucha Jimenez the famous organizer for Columbia.
I like that guy a lot because he's very serious.
He's he knows what what he's doing.
He knows the place he you know. So when you go to pumps you are
in good hands and then they have a habit in Colombia due to
summer agricultural needs to to to burn the fields and it's
forbidden by the law. So the way how the public fields
fields is a very criminal way. So they can be canisters of
petrol. They put the petrol rapidly,
they burn all of it rapidly and then they disappear before they
go. They are caught by the police.
So every single day, every single briefing will show in the
the, the locals. And they're really explaining
how crazy dangerous it is because it pulls into the air in
minutes. It has this enormous amount of
fire and all the not terminals, but updrafts.
Going crazy speeds up and everybody's wanted not to do it.
But then there are certain characters in our world like in
any other world that are begin to experiment that would be like
as you said to push the limit beyond reasonable.
So send was just a centimeters close to pay the stupidity with
his life. Because when she opened the
rescue and she opened the rescue and he fell just the meters away
from the fire, he could ended up in the fire and my dear good
friend from Bulgaria could be just a burnt meat.
And then this is nothing to be addressed with competitions,
flying with organizers, with World Cup.
This is personal stupidity and decision making or one
particular guy, you know, and I hope that he will see this
because I I spoke with him yesterday.
I I hope that he will rethink his.
But in meantime he he became much more responsible and you
know, this kind of examples and this kind of extreme, extreme
things like unique stuff and everything, you know, we have to
be, we have to be real. I mean we have to understand the
drive behind these things. You know you go into, I mean
Exop's is a radiator smoothie. This is, this is, this is.
I mean no Exop's is. We should never forget Exop's is
not the event. Exop's is the product.
So this is event is a tool of the product, is a marketing tool
of the product. So in the marketing sense,
everything is justified. But rules are known.
Marketing rules are known to every single participant.
Nothing to do with the results, nothing to do with with the
media director, nothing to do with the facts.
They are, they are, they are having a certain package offered
to certain participants with with acceptance.
You know, the the, the, the story about safety is finished.
You know, because those people, those sportsmans that absolutely
are one of the best in the world with their commitment, with
their capabilities, with their knowledge, they are literally
accepting the risk including life threatening situations.
So you know, it's not much different than I know 24 hours
of lemon races at the time or whatever.
You know, it's just pushing to the extreme limits and extreme
everything. So yeah, you you're not forced.
It's not a circuit, it's not Olympic, it's it's kind of
marketing campaign for a product.
So yeah. I love your honesty, Golan and I
wish every single guest was able to do this so honestly because
people don't talk about this aspect of the sport very openly.
So thank you so much for bringing out that perspective,
so transparently insane amount of value to our sport and the
audience. I quickly want to dive into the
manufacturer's side of this from the PWCA because as you you know
it's it's there written in the beginning of your homepage that
PWCA is helping R&D of that. We have multiple marketing
campaigns run by top companies. You know, we have short nose, we
have wave design, we have RAST coming in and we have like, you
know, different kinds of things when it comes to level playing
feet and just human factor. Are we eventually ever going to
look at standardization of equipment to a point where it
literally is the same? Like it's a problem like you
have the budget, you have tech, but there is a standardization
which does not deviate. However, in this sport, every
other time we have like Gambit coming in saying that ours is
the fastest and there are some people who are improving it.
And then there's Jim coming in and saying that hey, this is
revolutionary. So what what question it puts
me, puts to me is that if I am going out on market and trying
to buy a glider, is the glider making me win or is it my own
things? And then where is the fairness
of competing coming in? If you can throw some small
light on this because I remember the time when when Gambit and
Spectra were not allowed in one of these comps and I don't know
if it was FAI or if it was civil or something, but there was a
lot of talk like why aren't we allowing people to bring in.
So it's it's like if you can throw some light on this aspect
of the sport. Yeah, there are a few
interesting topics within this question.
Cabit was one one of I was in the middle of it and I believe
we did the correct thing, but that was not one of the
brightest moments in pirate history.
So we did the right thing, but it was painful and ugly, so I
hope it will not repeat itself. Gambit was banned.
It was in the in the World 2019 and it was just out of the comp
just before the comp with the controversial vote of team
leaders. Because what they want, what I
want, what we wanted is to avoid the mistakes from the past and
something so controversial is winning the event.
You know, like we had in Super Final 2010 with the 1st edition
of of Two Liners, you know, when shockers were won because you
know it was such a difference, it was such such, such.
I know how to say it was futile, it was pointless, calm, you
know, it was so superior over the others that it was totally
pointless to. It was disappointment instead of
bigger celebration. So this thing about how you
regulate these these enormous, let's say maybe progress points
in certain if they happen in a short amount of time and then
you're just faced with them, it's a it's a very big topic.
There are some tools around some rules this event, but it's not
well still controversial. So this this could be, I mean
honestly this could be qualified as a failure of of of the system
having this happening, you know these things should be clarified
much before. So the second part of your
question which is standardization, you know in in
a philosophical sense it that goes to the to the theory of
relativity. You know that far because what
you said a fully standardized equipment for in order to to
measure the performance of a man or woman or human it's of course
it's possible but in this moment it's a parallel reality.
It's not something that these people now in the sport and
these companies now being in the forefront of development, are
appealing to have. You know, it's not about is it
possible or is it right. It's about what kind of
government or what kind of parliament you have and which
kind of laws are produced by those people.
You know, in some different setup of people, not in
different times, in the very same time, in some different
setup of people, it could be easily possible.
There is nothing preventing us from doing it.
So there is also it's important that there is no right or wrong.
Vote are right or vote are wrong, but I think both are
right. Why?
Because ultimately standardized systems are working in many
sports but with a huge list of factors that needs to be
achieved before you reach that standardization.
Because standardization in a way, in a small spot like ours,
and it's, I mean in the easiest way to explain, is decreasing
the intrigue and is decreasing the the, the, the, the, the
fame. And in this, this glory around
something, you know, standardized things are simply
not so attractive to the companies, to the pilots, to
anyone. I will give you, I will give you
one very good example how crazy part of the world it is And when
we hit the answer gate in 2013 super final, it doesn't matter
when you hit the answer gate, you know it was very ugly story
when obviously the winning glider and the glider that is
that is how to say the best ever is absolutely out of words.
It's, it's cheating. So as organizers, we are facing
with a very difficult situation where we need to disqualify 2/3
of the field. Yeah, half of more than more
than half of this. And we did it.
We did it. You know, it was a very
controversial thing. It was.
I was under huge pressure from the organizers, from the, from
the manufacturers, from ozone, from from from New York to
penalize. It was a big, big passive.
I'm telling you this to understand why standardization
is not good. People having those lighters,
they were cheated, so they paid for something that was a product
that were light. It's certified.
So they were victims. The owner of those under the
time he said OK, we lost this game, we're going to repay to
every single pilot that suffered out of his loss.
So they tried to solve the problem.
There was many of intermediate steps.
In the beginning it was no, it's not cheating and listen.
But finally they ended up cheating.
So he offered refund to every single pilot willing to be
refund. You know how how many pals
requested refund and give the value back 00?
Not a single one. Because this paragliding and
this is very important to be properly understood.
This is like a drug having a better flying machine became a
better glider, being superior over others, because everybody
knew ozone is a very capable company, having very capable
people, he said. So they managed to certify the
divider after a certain amount of time.
So those ladders, those those people, they did not lose
anything. Finally after a few months they
they were on certified ladders and they became, but for that
particular super final and their trip to Brazil, all the
accommodation all the air tickets, whatever is the ability
to keep and everything went to the bin.
So if you carefully analyze this you will see how much this push
of these people now these days is against standardization.
They would like to have the latest thing they would like to
have at the vintage. You know, there is this famous
book from Dennis Page and different ones flying on the
last page. Among the last pages, there is
one one like small chapter saying what is the easiest way
to win a comp. You know, what is the easiest
way to win the comp. You can take a look later on to
have the best equipment standardization with my
sentences there is patient, you know.
So the standardization is cutting adoption And if it's
standardized, yeah. It brings me back to the point
where FAI went wrong. Guran, if we are eventually
bringing cash as king into the equation, there is going to be
no hope, man. It seems to be like a lost
cause. Well, I'm not a pessimistic, you
know, for me, you know we are leaving the, as I said many
times during this interview, you know, we are living the real
world so we are not operating in some kind of bubble or
something. You you're exposed to all the
natural movements of society and economics and whatever it is.
So we're just practicing something within a well known
structure and this Nobel known structure is one of the reasons
why things are like they are now.
That's why I said many, many times, you know in certain
circumstances in certain setup of people, you know now on
Thursday in two days I'm going to Korea for the serial Bureau
meeting which is in the primary of course when the all the
rules, Category 1 rules are reviewed.
So you know the proposals this year are so radical like never
before. So as I said certain amount of
things with certain amount of people can take very, very
different direction. So now we're discussing some
some very serious departure from the competition world that like
we we have now it's you're going into possibly into individual
world championship and people who compete on the individual
basis not related to the nations and many many other things you
know. So from that perspective, things
could be changed in any direction at any time, but.
Yeah. If this is one thing that I'm
super thankful for you this that is your honesty and your and
your braveness with coming with it.
And you know that basically all I'm trying to say is that if we
keep on pushing into this, this will turn into endless
conversation that is so enriching.
And because you're bringing it in such good manner, it's like,
yeah, it's it's a gold mine for for me.
And I'm pretty sure as well. But you know, we're since we're
closing in on time and I understand both of us have like
very limited time in this one. I just want to get your closing
thoughts on what's coming, what's next?
What is the future of Peter Lucia Watch?
Why should we be excited? Well, you know World Cup again,
it's not institutional. The World Cup doesn't want to
have a next best thing. We don't.
We we we do not want that. You know this is, this is, this
is, this is something that I mean people that know me and
that they know the the way how the World Cup operates, they
will fully understand what I'm saying.
You know we reach the, we reach the the point of maturity and we
reach the point we reach. We have a running system and
what we would like to have and to provide is to have
professional serious organizers providing professional serious
services for the competitors. That's simple.
We do not need the next best thing like now we will have, I
don't know, satellite, artificial intelligence, live
commentary from the stars. We are.
We are not in that sort of business and we do not want to
be in that. What we would like to have is to
have a decent media coverage when people are informed what's
happening what is the latest in the party.
I think for example now in the Super final in in in Brazilian
in just few days. I I truly believe we have a
sensational thing by any standards which is finally we
will have Gene Genius 5 competing in parallel with also
submarines on on a on a proper scale not one or two or three.
So it's available commercially. So you know this kind of things
has nothing to do with the biggest next thing.
This is just ordinary sportsman world.
That's what I'm looking for. You know what we would like to
have is to have a decent output from our core business which is
organizing comps on the highest level.
That's it. Nothing to do with the flashing
stuff, nothing to do with some break new land or whatever.
We are bringing breakthroughs in in in on the technical level of
the flymaster with always having the latest software, always
having the latest retrieval system, always having whatever
is latest within the technology, but making comps more enjoyable
and from the rest of the world. It could be just things like all
the time, before you know it's always the same thing.
If you go, you have a comp, you have the winners, you have the
podiums, you shake hands and then again and again and again.
This is called maturity of the sport.
This is called maturity of one organization.
Nothing sensational, just doing it.
Wow Goran, I love your honesty and basically I mean I know I
keep on saying this but Long story short, the professionalism
you have, the drive you have, it explains why you have been at
the forefront of this for 30 years and I wish you all the
luck and to be honest, the questions endless.
Which means we will bring you. We would love to bring you back
for another episode hopefully sometime very soon.
Keep rocking. You're an inspiration.
Thank you so much. You're.
Welcome anything.