The variety of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a
lot over the years and now you have these massive gaggles and
very fast tasks going along ridges and this has led to a big
increase in the risks taken and much less variation in the way
that pilots can fly the task. There's two big problems with
the drag noodles. The first problem is that really
they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125
kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only
weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well.
MRT is multi radius turn points So what it means is that if you
are a lighter weight pilot then you can have a bigger radius and
this negates the performance advantage which those guys have.
Hello, and welcome back to Paragliding Atlas.
I'm your host, Aninda Singh, and joining me today is a man who
has won many hats. From designing some of the most
pioneering gliders to revamping the scoring system, Bruce
Goldsmith is coming out with solutions one way or the other.
Bruce, welcome to the show. Thanks very much.
Very good to be here. Bruce, I want to get going right
away because past couple of weeks we have seen quite a lot
of intense discussions on various solutions that are being
offered in the world of para lighting and scoring seems to be
a big pain point in one of them. And I'm pretty sure the
audiences that are tuning in can relate to our previous episode
where Luke clearly mentioned that the way designers put out
their designs in the gliders, a lot of it depends on how the
scoring is carried out. So just to get started, why
haven't we been able to figure out scoring even after three or
four decades of modern day paragliding?
Well, I think that the goal posts have been moving a lot,
you know, so things have changed and the way tasks are done has
changed a lot. I mean, when I first started
doing competitions, it was all about open distance.
And the first competitions I was doing, we had open distance
every day. So we just fly as far as you
could every day. And that was a very famous
competition in in Como in Northern Italy.
And so the whole thing was based on on on distance flying and
flying far. But now it's all about racing.
So the goal posts have completely switched everything.
Everything has changed. So from distance to speed.
Bruce, a lot of times it's said that the way we chase glory at
the highest level is somehow incentivizing risk over tactics.
Your goal post change analogy, Do you think somehow we have
completely moved away from the fact that there was a time when
we were chasing smarter decision making and right now it's all
about who can go out there and deal with the most amount of
turbulence or mayhem? Yeah, I think that the variety
of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a lot over
the years. And now you have these massive
gaggles and very fast tasks going along ridges and this has
led to a big increase in the risks taken and much less
variation in the way the pilots can fly the task.
So let's say when it comes to compensating the field, we have
struggled with the question of ballast for quite a long time
where size has pretty much defined on how your glide will
be or what your performance will be.
So you have seen the industry evolve for more than 4 decades I
believe, you know, be as as as a racer yourself or as a designer
or somebody who kind of goes behind the legislation.
Can we hope for an eventual solution in near future or is
this a debatable topic that will more or less reach a stalemate
because the opinions will always differ and we humans will find
it hard to come to consensus for when it comes to chasing glory
and and deciding who's the best in the sky.
Well, I think part of the problem is the way the rules
have been written that people have actually been ignoring this
issue of size, and the size problem has become worse and
worse over the years. One of the classic problems is
the problem of the load test for gliders.
Normally most manufacturers, they load test the large size
and then put the large lines on the smaller size gliders, which
obviously increases the performance advantage for big
gliders. And also the way that the tasks
have been run and the the way, the the way that pilots and
competitions always go to the strongest places in the world at
the strongest time of the year. Before we used to often do
competitions in weak conditions. And when we have when you have
weak conditions, then the lightweight pilots have an
advantage. But nowadays they just cancel
the tasks if conditions are weak or they just go to the strongest
places in the world at the strongest time of the year.
So as this, yeah, as this has become a growing problem over
the over the years, I've been trying over the last 8 to 10
years to come up with a solution to solve this issue.
And so we ran the waiters competition where we were using
the competition and all the pilots as Guinea pigs to try
different kinds of systems to see what we could do to overcome
this problem of the big weight advantage that people have.
OK, Just sort of curiosity because Weightless and MRT have
been thrown around quite a lot in the in the discussion forums
the past few days. Are these the same branches of
one solution or are these two completely different things that
that we're talking about here? MRT being the multiple radius
term vote for our audiences. Yeah, Weightless was was was a
series of competitions which I set up to investigate ways in
which weight would not count in competitions.
So that was the competition. And we started by having weight
classes, which is the obvious solution.
And so we had three weight classes.
They were up to 8080 to 100 and above 100 kilos.
And we ran the first competition like this and we actually found
it made it worse, not better, because part of the idea is that
people don't need to carry ballast.
And so when you have those weight classes, everybody just
ballasted up to the top of their class.
So it just ended up with everybody carrying lots of
ballast. So it was exactly the opposite
of the effect we wanted. I'm going to quickly compare
this to the drag noodles that have been making waves in
discussion forums as well. From from your perspective, of
course, you know they look ugly. They are negating the fact that
we wanted to reduce drag in the 1st place and a lot of pilots
are opposed to it. From your point of view, is this
matching that solution or is this better or is this falling
short? What do you think when we are
comparing these two solutions? Yeah, for me there's two big
problems with the drag noodles. The first problem is that really
they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125
kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only
weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well, you know.
So we're talking about the full range of pilots.
And when you look at the weight range of say 100 to 125 kilos,
the performance difference is about 5%.
So this you can manage to to adjust with noodles.
But when you're talking about the difference between say 65
kilos and 125 kilos, so that's the difference between an extra
small to an extra large, then you're talking more like 20%.
And Dragnoodles, there's no way you can compensate 20% of
performance difference with the dragon noodles.
To make it even more simpler, you know, I'm just trying to
break down the whole thing in a way that we all can fathom that
what's exactly is going on. So let's say on a scale of 1 to
10, if you have to see the effectiveness of current scoring
system that is being employed in FAI or CAT1, where do you see
where would you rate the current scoring system and then the BGD
weightless class where, where would that come in, in
comparison if we are just talking about numbers and then
we will dive into the details that where you know we are
lacking or we are better off in in one way or the other.
Well, my. Idea was not actually to start
at the top level. You know, we're told the, the
weightless competition is a friendly pilots competition with
intermediate gliders flying it's been C Class or C and up to C&D
class and it's not open class CCC competition.
But what it does is that it enables pilots who fly extra
small gliders to actually compete along with the
heavyweight pilots. And that is, you know, a massive
eye opener for for those pilots because normally they can't even
be in the air in the same air at the same time.
You know, it's such a such a huge difference.
Perhaps we should talk about actually what MRT is because we
haven't really explained it. I said by first competition we
did was with weight classes and then after that we went over to
a handicap system and then after that we tried MRT.
So MRT is multi radius turn points.
So what it means is that a typical turn point has say a 400
metre radius. If you look at the image in
front of you, that would be say a 400 metre radius.
And then you have if you're if you're a lighter weight pilot,
then you can have a bigger radius and that means that you
fly a task which is a shorter distance.
So that means it gives you a little advantage over the big
guy. So this just compensates for the
advantage the big guy already has.
So you end up at each turn point with a small boost for the small
pilots. And it's actually quite
interesting to see this when it's actually happening during a
competition, You know, because what happens is that the
lightweight pilots tend to get left behind.
And then as you get to a turn point, you all come in together
with the lightweight pilots behind and you turn around and
then you find yourself back in line with the lightweight pilots
again and you haven't left them behind.
So it's quite interesting to see it when it's actually in use in
a competition. Bruce, I want to dive into one
of these WhatsApp chats that have been going on in the pilots
union that has recently formed. And quite a few pilots has their
own feelings about MRT. And Max Pinot said that modern
tactics do not go well with this.
If you're able to see my screen, I'm going to just zoom in here.
And it's said that we are negating the the tactics over
here and by shortening you are making those pilots, exposing
them to counter attacks. But more than that, something
that really caught my eye is that if Stan clearly mentioned
that if we are turning before the trigger, because he said
that a lot of thermal sources is where the waypoint is placed by
the task committee. So if small pilots might be
turning before, then they do have a disadvantage.
So let's try and visualize that in this image.
And is there a way forward? Or, you know, it's like, yeah,
we can't really please everyone, but at least it gives us more
possibilities. Well, it's actually very easy to
answer that that point. I mean, you know, thermals are
in some places and not in other places.
And sometimes when you're going to a turn point, you might need
to go a bit further to find the thermal and sometimes it can go
the other way. You know, you find a thermal and
then the others have to go out of it.
So what I mean, it seems to be that what Stan is saying is that
if you have a longer task, this can be an advantage.
But clearly this is nonsense. You know, the shorter task, the
quicker it is to fly. It's very easy.
You don't have to be a genius. So in the end, you have whatever
a task of 80 kilometres, you have an an average speed and the
average time it takes you to do that task, if you do 100
kilometres, it's going to take you longer, you know, simple as
that. And and you know, you gain some,
you lose some, but in the end everything averages out.
So I would say this is a really a false criticism of the system.
Fair enough. I would.
I would want to move back to weightless for a bit.
Would you like to explain the weightless concept and how it
basically started and how it has eventually evolved to MRT?
And maybe you know how it goes further?
Can I quickly go back to the last, the last messages that
it's interesting to note that they were coming from, well, 2
out of 3 is coming from big pilots, you know, very large
pilots. And there's obviously a very big
resistance from the large pilots to lose the advantage which they
have, you know, so that's, you know, clearly has to be said,
you know that it's large pilots have an advantage and they don't
want to lose it. Simple as that.
So going on going on to the the MRT system itself, we just ran
the last version of the MRT. You know the MRT is actually
changing every year. Every year when we run a new
competition we put in new technology and try new things
and try and improve the system all the time.
At the last competition, what actually happened was we weigh
all the pilots at the registration, then we have 10
weight classes which everybody fits in.
And then when they set the task, you set the task for the longest
task, which is the heaviest weight task.
And then the scoring system calculates how much shorter all
the other ten groups need to fly.
And those calculations are all based on statistics.
They're just based on analysing previous competitions and the
performance of different weight gliders.
So you can you can actually analyse this pretty closely and
the more competitions we run, the more accurate will be this
compensation. And so then all the pilots take
off. The start and finish are not
MRT, they're just standard starts and finishes and then the
task, all the turn points during the event, then MRT and, and
then you, you finish at the end. And the nice thing is, is that
because the lighter pilots are able to fly a shorter distance
that they can actually win the task.
Whereas with with any other system of handicaps, for
example, the lighter guys won't actually be the first guy to
cross the line, which is why we won't a handicap is, is you
just, everybody flies the same task and then you just give
somebody more points at the end because of their weight.
And that's what they use in sailing, you know, so you just,
but it means that they are not up at the front of the
competition leading the task. You know, it means that they are
far behind and then they get a boost to their points.
But it's, you know, it's a boost to the points, but it's not the
best way. You know, it's, it's, it doesn't
give them the excitement of winning the race.
So that's the whole idea that even a light person can get the
excitement of winning the race. Do you think this is going to
change like the way people choose lines or like what?
Let's let's try and look at it from the tactics side of the
things. Where are tactics being
challenged and where is human intelligence put at question in
in such a format compared to the conventional one that we have
been following so far? Well, with the last competition
we did there was actually how would you say when you're flying
the competition, it's not as though somebody is overtaking
you because they have a shorter turn point.
What happens is you overtake the guy before and then he catches
you up again at the turn point. You see what I mean?
So, you know, this is an advantage which the big guys
have all the time. And then this gives the the guys
who are behind a little boost to catch up with the league guy,
you know, because of the extra weight that he has.
So this is an advantage those guys have all the time and this
is just a little boost to help them catch up.
You know, it's it's you're kind of explaining it the wrong way
round. You know, people were talking
about it being fair, but it's actually completely unfair right
now and we're trying to make it. Better, I do agree that that the
the the ballast thing which is being offered by a solution
isn't the most viable answer to all of these questions.
But what I'm wondering is that let's let's say conical end of
speed section was kind of similar that you have to like
you're incentivizing coming in higher.
So in in here when we are going in for the smaller radius turn
point, you probably need a lot more height and you will need to
circle a lot more than the person who is coming in for the
bigger radius turn point. So so.
I disagree. I disagree, sorry.
So you're coming in, your glide is better and you're you're
gliding faster. Yes.
So you're not having to thermal more because you had to thermal
less because you have a performance advantage.
And this negates the performance advantage which those guys have.
It's not about thermaling more, not at all.
At the moment, the little guys have to thermal more.
It's it means that the little guys have to thermal the same as
the big guys. So it's not about thermaling
more, it's about thermaling equally.
Fair enough, that does make sense.
Yeah. Adaptability, Bruce, so far, how
successfully has this been carried out and what are the
solutions that you have seen working out?
And yeah, where all has this been going on for like since
2020? I think that is like five years
ago where this started picking up.
Yeah, we fist, Yeah, we started 2020 with MRT and 2018 with
weight classes and and also the penalty system.
But yeah, so I mean, we're just slowly working, improving the
system all the time, just working on our own and making
better and better competitions and hoping that the rest of the
competition world will wake up and see what a nice system we've
created and how well it how well it solves a lot of the problems
that we have with competitions right now.
And one, one thing that's to be said about it is that leading
points does not work in this MRT system.
So you cannot have leading points because the lead is
changed on every turn point, you know, so the leading points
really don't make sense anymore. And so this is really to do
with, you know, probably mid level competitions, you know,
cloud level, national level competitions, probably not the
best for PwC and head to head racing.
But the reason that I bought it out now is that there's been a
big question about the safety and the way the top level
competitions has been, well, the levels of safety in in
competition right now and the MRT is a huge improvement in the
level of safety. So, you know, it's just a
suggestion that it could be considered as a way to improve
safety in all competitions. OK, just for introspection, say
Spake for for people who are planning to adapt this, for all
the comp organisers who are listening to this, any
challenges that you yourself have faced with this so far?
And if yes, then how did you kind of overcome them?
So like for like what? What can people expect if they
if they want to adapt this in their comp formats?
But the biggest jump for we made with the last competition was
having the tasks, all those QR codes.
So each pilot has his own QR code and each QR code is
different from everybody else's QR code because effectively
you've got 10 different tasks. So after the task is set, within
5 minutes, every pilot gets his own QR code and then he follows
that QR code to do the event. And this is something which is
really new and has, has really made NRT possible at, you know,
at, at, at competition level because everybody's using the QR
codes now for, for setting the task.
So basically just just more work for the task committee and not
not much of a difference for the participants.
More or less remains the same. Yeah, more or less remains the
same. It's the task committee sets the
same task and it's the scoring guy that sends out all the QR
codes. Fair enough.
Coming back to the leading points tank, fine.
You know, pushing bar is exciting.
Going ahead and choosing your lines is really a thought
process. Like a lot of winners are
decided like that. But if we take away the
asymmetric that come when you're on full bar, a lot of gliders
would fall back below a category because most of the gliders at
least in C&D class are getting a letter in the homologation
because they are having different recovery times from
asymmetric on bar. So if we, let's say, take away
racing on bar, are we inherently making the the the the sport a
more safer one to be in? Yeah, I don't exactly understand
the understand the question. I think that racing will remain
racing and the main difference with no leading points is that
is that it, it, it becomes beneficial to follow other
people rather than lead out in the task.
And yeah, that's a downside of the MRT system.
Bruce, glider sizes have been in question for quite a while and
more or less the bigger the better has always remained the
norm. So when we look at performance
differences, what's your view on that topic and how can that be
equalised, if at all in future? Yeah.
Well, I asked the same question a few years ago and I had an
engineer, Rene Falcier from Switzerland, who worked on this
exact topic for me. And he was able to analyse the
difference between an extra small glider to extra large
glider and precisely calculate all the differences in
performance between extra small to extra large.
And the overall conclusion he came to was that there was a 6%
improvement in glide ratio, 5% higher top speed for the extra
large and a 25% improvement in dynamic reactions.
So that's absolutely huge. But I mean, what are dynamic
reactions? I mean, dynamic reactions is the
way that the glider reacts to turbulence.
And so you have to remember that if you have a chunk of
turbulence and you have somebody with an extra large glider,
let's say that the the turbulent chunk of turbulence is the same
size as the extra large glider, you know, and then the so the
extra large glider will lose a bit of height because he might
make some pitch movements, might even get a collapse or whatever
and then carry on flying. Let's say he loses 10 meters.
Then if you've got the extra small glider going into the same
piece of turbulence, that turbulence is double the size
for him, double the size. So it's going to affect him a
lot more. And as I said, the calculation
is that it actually effects 25% more for the extra small glider
compared to the extra large glider.
So when you're considering the performance improvement, you
have to look at all those three things, glide, performance,
speed and dynamic effects. And that's why it's not just a
few small percent. It's actually much larger than
just the performance difference. So in short, if you're just
going out and chasing cross country numbers then the bigger
the better is always the solution and you can't challenge
that no matter what. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. I mean, personally, I've put on
10 kilos recently and I can feel an enormous improvement in the
performance of my glider, you know, just enormous.
So, you know, I can feel it first hand.
Yeah. All right.
On that note, Bruce, I think we have touched upon the topic
pretty holistically and fingers crossed you know the cat too.
And like other organisers who are curious, I think they can
find a very informative information package that you
have recently shared with me and I can share it in the show
description below as well, with your permission if you allow me
to. Yeah.
And we also have this incorporated in the scoring
system. So you know, it's, you know,
been used once so far. So it's still very new, but it
should be available for any organization to use.
If they wish. Amazing.
Bruce, thanks for your time today.
And yeah, keep flying off. Nice.
Thank you. OK.
Thanks a lot then. Bye bye.