1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:08,440 The variety of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,800 lot over the years and now you have these massive gaggles and 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:18,280 very fast tasks going along ridges and this has led to a big 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:24,640 increase in the risks taken and much less variation in the way 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,680 that pilots can fly the task. There's two big problems with 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,560 the drag noodles. The first problem is that really 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,640 they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125 8 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,800 kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,160 weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well. 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:50,960 MRT is multi radius turn points So what it means is that if you 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,160 are a lighter weight pilot then you can have a bigger radius and 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,280 this negates the performance advantage which those guys have. 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,400 Hello, and welcome back to Paragliding Atlas. 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,040 I'm your host, Aninda Singh, and joining me today is a man who 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,200 has won many hats. From designing some of the most 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,360 pioneering gliders to revamping the scoring system, Bruce 17 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:19,080 Goldsmith is coming out with solutions one way or the other. 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Bruce, welcome to the show. Thanks very much. 19 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,120 Very good to be here. Bruce, I want to get going right 20 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,760 away because past couple of weeks we have seen quite a lot 21 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,080 of intense discussions on various solutions that are being 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,000 offered in the world of para lighting and scoring seems to be 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,320 a big pain point in one of them. And I'm pretty sure the 24 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,600 audiences that are tuning in can relate to our previous episode 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,640 where Luke clearly mentioned that the way designers put out 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,840 their designs in the gliders, a lot of it depends on how the 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,320 scoring is carried out. So just to get started, why 28 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,720 haven't we been able to figure out scoring even after three or 29 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,000 four decades of modern day paragliding? 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,160 Well, I think that the goal posts have been moving a lot, 31 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,800 you know, so things have changed and the way tasks are done has 32 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,200 changed a lot. I mean, when I first started 33 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,720 doing competitions, it was all about open distance. 34 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,200 And the first competitions I was doing, we had open distance 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,800 every day. So we just fly as far as you 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,040 could every day. And that was a very famous 37 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,560 competition in in Como in Northern Italy. 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,080 And so the whole thing was based on on on distance flying and 39 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,840 flying far. But now it's all about racing. 40 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,360 So the goal posts have completely switched everything. 41 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,480 Everything has changed. So from distance to speed. 42 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:54,040 Bruce, a lot of times it's said that the way we chase glory at 43 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,160 the highest level is somehow incentivizing risk over tactics. 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,960 Your goal post change analogy, Do you think somehow we have 45 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,680 completely moved away from the fact that there was a time when 46 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,800 we were chasing smarter decision making and right now it's all 47 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,880 about who can go out there and deal with the most amount of 48 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:21,560 turbulence or mayhem? Yeah, I think that the variety 49 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,760 of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a lot over 50 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,240 the years. And now you have these massive 51 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:33,280 gaggles and very fast tasks going along ridges and this has 52 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:41,040 led to a big increase in the risks taken and much less 53 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,440 variation in the way the pilots can fly the task. 54 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:51,160 So let's say when it comes to compensating the field, we have 55 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,600 struggled with the question of ballast for quite a long time 56 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:00,480 where size has pretty much defined on how your glide will 57 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,440 be or what your performance will be. 58 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,160 So you have seen the industry evolve for more than 4 decades I 59 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,080 believe, you know, be as as as a racer yourself or as a designer 60 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,520 or somebody who kind of goes behind the legislation. 61 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:22,520 Can we hope for an eventual solution in near future or is 62 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,880 this a debatable topic that will more or less reach a stalemate 63 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,200 because the opinions will always differ and we humans will find 64 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,160 it hard to come to consensus for when it comes to chasing glory 65 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,000 and and deciding who's the best in the sky. 66 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,000 Well, I think part of the problem is the way the rules 67 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000 have been written that people have actually been ignoring this 68 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,640 issue of size, and the size problem has become worse and 69 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,040 worse over the years. One of the classic problems is 70 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,120 the problem of the load test for gliders. 71 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,440 Normally most manufacturers, they load test the large size 72 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,160 and then put the large lines on the smaller size gliders, which 73 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,800 obviously increases the performance advantage for big 74 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,160 gliders. And also the way that the tasks 75 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,960 have been run and the the way, the the way that pilots and 76 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000 competitions always go to the strongest places in the world at 77 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,080 the strongest time of the year. Before we used to often do 78 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,440 competitions in weak conditions. And when we have when you have 79 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,640 weak conditions, then the lightweight pilots have an 80 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,520 advantage. But nowadays they just cancel 81 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,680 the tasks if conditions are weak or they just go to the strongest 82 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,200 places in the world at the strongest time of the year. 83 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,040 So as this, yeah, as this has become a growing problem over 84 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,920 the over the years, I've been trying over the last 8 to 10 85 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,200 years to come up with a solution to solve this issue. 86 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,080 And so we ran the waiters competition where we were using 87 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,880 the competition and all the pilots as Guinea pigs to try 88 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,880 different kinds of systems to see what we could do to overcome 89 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,840 this problem of the big weight advantage that people have. 90 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,560 OK, Just sort of curiosity because Weightless and MRT have 91 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,040 been thrown around quite a lot in the in the discussion forums 92 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,840 the past few days. Are these the same branches of 93 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,000 one solution or are these two completely different things that 94 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,800 that we're talking about here? MRT being the multiple radius 95 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:33,320 term vote for our audiences. Yeah, Weightless was was was a 96 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,880 series of competitions which I set up to investigate ways in 97 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,720 which weight would not count in competitions. 98 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,400 So that was the competition. And we started by having weight 99 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,600 classes, which is the obvious solution. 100 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,640 And so we had three weight classes. 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,840 They were up to 8080 to 100 and above 100 kilos. 102 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,400 And we ran the first competition like this and we actually found 103 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,960 it made it worse, not better, because part of the idea is that 104 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,480 people don't need to carry ballast. 105 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,840 And so when you have those weight classes, everybody just 106 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:10,880 ballasted up to the top of their class. 107 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,080 So it just ended up with everybody carrying lots of 108 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,280 ballast. So it was exactly the opposite 109 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,200 of the effect we wanted. I'm going to quickly compare 110 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,240 this to the drag noodles that have been making waves in 111 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,960 discussion forums as well. From from your perspective, of 112 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,760 course, you know they look ugly. They are negating the fact that 113 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,440 we wanted to reduce drag in the 1st place and a lot of pilots 114 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:41,040 are opposed to it. From your point of view, is this 115 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,040 matching that solution or is this better or is this falling 116 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,040 short? What do you think when we are 117 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:52,440 comparing these two solutions? Yeah, for me there's two big 118 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:59,120 problems with the drag noodles. The first problem is that really 119 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,200 they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125 120 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,360 kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only 121 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,360 weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well, you know. 122 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,800 So we're talking about the full range of pilots. 123 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:20,320 And when you look at the weight range of say 100 to 125 kilos, 124 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,640 the performance difference is about 5%. 125 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,880 So this you can manage to to adjust with noodles. 126 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,960 But when you're talking about the difference between say 65 127 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,600 kilos and 125 kilos, so that's the difference between an extra 128 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,039 small to an extra large, then you're talking more like 20%. 129 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,840 And Dragnoodles, there's no way you can compensate 20% of 130 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,640 performance difference with the dragon noodles. 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,800 To make it even more simpler, you know, I'm just trying to 132 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,680 break down the whole thing in a way that we all can fathom that 133 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:55,120 what's exactly is going on. So let's say on a scale of 1 to 134 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,200 10, if you have to see the effectiveness of current scoring 135 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:04,640 system that is being employed in FAI or CAT1, where do you see 136 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:10,320 where would you rate the current scoring system and then the BGD 137 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,640 weightless class where, where would that come in, in 138 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,880 comparison if we are just talking about numbers and then 139 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,000 we will dive into the details that where you know we are 140 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,560 lacking or we are better off in in one way or the other. 141 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,840 Well, my. Idea was not actually to start 142 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,400 at the top level. You know, we're told the, the 143 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,640 weightless competition is a friendly pilots competition with 144 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,160 intermediate gliders flying it's been C Class or C and up to C&D 145 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,600 class and it's not open class CCC competition. 146 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:50,840 But what it does is that it enables pilots who fly extra 147 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,880 small gliders to actually compete along with the 148 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,320 heavyweight pilots. And that is, you know, a massive 149 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,920 eye opener for for those pilots because normally they can't even 150 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,240 be in the air in the same air at the same time. 151 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,760 You know, it's such a such a huge difference. 152 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,400 Perhaps we should talk about actually what MRT is because we 153 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:18,320 haven't really explained it. I said by first competition we 154 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,960 did was with weight classes and then after that we went over to 155 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:28,160 a handicap system and then after that we tried MRT. 156 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,720 So MRT is multi radius turn points. 157 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,720 So what it means is that a typical turn point has say a 400 158 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,080 metre radius. If you look at the image in 159 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,920 front of you, that would be say a 400 metre radius. 160 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,680 And then you have if you're if you're a lighter weight pilot, 161 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:49,040 then you can have a bigger radius and that means that you 162 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,680 fly a task which is a shorter distance. 163 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,240 So that means it gives you a little advantage over the big 164 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,800 guy. So this just compensates for the 165 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,920 advantage the big guy already has. 166 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,680 So you end up at each turn point with a small boost for the small 167 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,920 pilots. And it's actually quite 168 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,000 interesting to see this when it's actually happening during a 169 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,720 competition, You know, because what happens is that the 170 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,920 lightweight pilots tend to get left behind. 171 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,480 And then as you get to a turn point, you all come in together 172 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,160 with the lightweight pilots behind and you turn around and 173 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,440 then you find yourself back in line with the lightweight pilots 174 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,880 again and you haven't left them behind. 175 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,440 So it's quite interesting to see it when it's actually in use in 176 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,440 a competition. Bruce, I want to dive into one 177 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,600 of these WhatsApp chats that have been going on in the pilots 178 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,920 union that has recently formed. And quite a few pilots has their 179 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:54,120 own feelings about MRT. And Max Pinot said that modern 180 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,840 tactics do not go well with this. 181 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,480 If you're able to see my screen, I'm going to just zoom in here. 182 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,960 And it's said that we are negating the the tactics over 183 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,160 here and by shortening you are making those pilots, exposing 184 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:15,360 them to counter attacks. But more than that, something 185 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:22,200 that really caught my eye is that if Stan clearly mentioned 186 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:28,360 that if we are turning before the trigger, because he said 187 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:34,360 that a lot of thermal sources is where the waypoint is placed by 188 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,920 the task committee. So if small pilots might be 189 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,280 turning before, then they do have a disadvantage. 190 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,440 So let's try and visualize that in this image. 191 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,040 And is there a way forward? Or, you know, it's like, yeah, 192 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,120 we can't really please everyone, but at least it gives us more 193 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,200 possibilities. Well, it's actually very easy to 194 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,200 answer that that point. I mean, you know, thermals are 195 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,000 in some places and not in other places. 196 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,480 And sometimes when you're going to a turn point, you might need 197 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,280 to go a bit further to find the thermal and sometimes it can go 198 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,200 the other way. You know, you find a thermal and 199 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,880 then the others have to go out of it. 200 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,480 So what I mean, it seems to be that what Stan is saying is that 201 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,960 if you have a longer task, this can be an advantage. 202 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,840 But clearly this is nonsense. You know, the shorter task, the 203 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,840 quicker it is to fly. It's very easy. 204 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,320 You don't have to be a genius. So in the end, you have whatever 205 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,160 a task of 80 kilometres, you have an an average speed and the 206 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,960 average time it takes you to do that task, if you do 100 207 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,640 kilometres, it's going to take you longer, you know, simple as 208 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,880 that. And and you know, you gain some, 209 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,680 you lose some, but in the end everything averages out. 210 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:55,280 So I would say this is a really a false criticism of the system. 211 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,720 Fair enough. I would. 212 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,760 I would want to move back to weightless for a bit. 213 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,640 Would you like to explain the weightless concept and how it 214 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,320 basically started and how it has eventually evolved to MRT? 215 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,800 And maybe you know how it goes further? 216 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,920 Can I quickly go back to the last, the last messages that 217 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,360 it's interesting to note that they were coming from, well, 2 218 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,000 out of 3 is coming from big pilots, you know, very large 219 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,520 pilots. And there's obviously a very big 220 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,120 resistance from the large pilots to lose the advantage which they 221 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,320 have, you know, so that's, you know, clearly has to be said, 222 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,040 you know that it's large pilots have an advantage and they don't 223 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,560 want to lose it. Simple as that. 224 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:50,360 So going on going on to the the MRT system itself, we just ran 225 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,880 the last version of the MRT. You know the MRT is actually 226 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,600 changing every year. Every year when we run a new 227 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,600 competition we put in new technology and try new things 228 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,520 and try and improve the system all the time. 229 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,960 At the last competition, what actually happened was we weigh 230 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,080 all the pilots at the registration, then we have 10 231 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,000 weight classes which everybody fits in. 232 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:22,480 And then when they set the task, you set the task for the longest 233 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,000 task, which is the heaviest weight task. 234 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,440 And then the scoring system calculates how much shorter all 235 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,840 the other ten groups need to fly. 236 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,960 And those calculations are all based on statistics. 237 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,480 They're just based on analysing previous competitions and the 238 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,320 performance of different weight gliders. 239 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,600 So you can you can actually analyse this pretty closely and 240 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,200 the more competitions we run, the more accurate will be this 241 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:00,160 compensation. And so then all the pilots take 242 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,000 off. The start and finish are not 243 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,160 MRT, they're just standard starts and finishes and then the 244 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:14,520 task, all the turn points during the event, then MRT and, and 245 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,480 then you, you finish at the end. And the nice thing is, is that 246 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:24,320 because the lighter pilots are able to fly a shorter distance 247 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,760 that they can actually win the task. 248 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,520 Whereas with with any other system of handicaps, for 249 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,880 example, the lighter guys won't actually be the first guy to 250 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,760 cross the line, which is why we won't a handicap is, is you 251 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,920 just, everybody flies the same task and then you just give 252 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,760 somebody more points at the end because of their weight. 253 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,320 And that's what they use in sailing, you know, so you just, 254 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,240 but it means that they are not up at the front of the 255 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,040 competition leading the task. You know, it means that they are 256 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,000 far behind and then they get a boost to their points. 257 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,480 But it's, you know, it's a boost to the points, but it's not the 258 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,839 best way. You know, it's, it's, it doesn't 259 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,599 give them the excitement of winning the race. 260 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,440 So that's the whole idea that even a light person can get the 261 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,240 excitement of winning the race. Do you think this is going to 262 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,880 change like the way people choose lines or like what? 263 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,880 Let's let's try and look at it from the tactics side of the 264 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,800 things. Where are tactics being 265 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,520 challenged and where is human intelligence put at question in 266 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,200 in such a format compared to the conventional one that we have 267 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,520 been following so far? Well, with the last competition 268 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:44,920 we did there was actually how would you say when you're flying 269 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,280 the competition, it's not as though somebody is overtaking 270 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,320 you because they have a shorter turn point. 271 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:56,040 What happens is you overtake the guy before and then he catches 272 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,720 you up again at the turn point. You see what I mean? 273 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,320 So, you know, this is an advantage which the big guys 274 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,120 have all the time. And then this gives the the guys 275 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:10,280 who are behind a little boost to catch up with the league guy, 276 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,080 you know, because of the extra weight that he has. 277 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,240 So this is an advantage those guys have all the time and this 278 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,520 is just a little boost to help them catch up. 279 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,200 You know, it's it's you're kind of explaining it the wrong way 280 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,440 round. You know, people were talking 281 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,280 about it being fair, but it's actually completely unfair right 282 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,600 now and we're trying to make it. Better, I do agree that that the 283 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,840 the the ballast thing which is being offered by a solution 284 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,280 isn't the most viable answer to all of these questions. 285 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,840 But what I'm wondering is that let's let's say conical end of 286 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,640 speed section was kind of similar that you have to like 287 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,360 you're incentivizing coming in higher. 288 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:53,280 So in in here when we are going in for the smaller radius turn 289 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,400 point, you probably need a lot more height and you will need to 290 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,840 circle a lot more than the person who is coming in for the 291 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,400 bigger radius turn point. So so. 292 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,360 I disagree. I disagree, sorry. 293 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,920 So you're coming in, your glide is better and you're you're 294 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,320 gliding faster. Yes. 295 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,200 So you're not having to thermal more because you had to thermal 296 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,320 less because you have a performance advantage. 297 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,000 And this negates the performance advantage which those guys have. 298 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,080 It's not about thermaling more, not at all. 299 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,880 At the moment, the little guys have to thermal more. 300 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600 It's it means that the little guys have to thermal the same as 301 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,080 the big guys. So it's not about thermaling 302 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,760 more, it's about thermaling equally. 303 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,280 Fair enough, that does make sense. 304 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:47,560 Yeah. Adaptability, Bruce, so far, how 305 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,840 successfully has this been carried out and what are the 306 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,120 solutions that you have seen working out? 307 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:57,400 And yeah, where all has this been going on for like since 308 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,960 2020? I think that is like five years 309 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,960 ago where this started picking up. 310 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Yeah, we fist, Yeah, we started 2020 with MRT and 2018 with 311 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:16,080 weight classes and and also the penalty system. 312 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,520 But yeah, so I mean, we're just slowly working, improving the 313 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,160 system all the time, just working on our own and making 314 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,320 better and better competitions and hoping that the rest of the 315 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,400 competition world will wake up and see what a nice system we've 316 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,120 created and how well it how well it solves a lot of the problems 317 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:39,760 that we have with competitions right now. 318 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,000 And one, one thing that's to be said about it is that leading 319 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,400 points does not work in this MRT system. 320 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,600 So you cannot have leading points because the lead is 321 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,920 changed on every turn point, you know, so the leading points 322 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,520 really don't make sense anymore. And so this is really to do 323 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:07,880 with, you know, probably mid level competitions, you know, 324 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,440 cloud level, national level competitions, probably not the 325 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,520 best for PwC and head to head racing. 326 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:23,120 But the reason that I bought it out now is that there's been a 327 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,520 big question about the safety and the way the top level 328 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,560 competitions has been, well, the levels of safety in in 329 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,760 competition right now and the MRT is a huge improvement in the 330 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,120 level of safety. So, you know, it's just a 331 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,440 suggestion that it could be considered as a way to improve 332 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,760 safety in all competitions. OK, just for introspection, say 333 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Spake for for people who are planning to adapt this, for all 334 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,160 the comp organisers who are listening to this, any 335 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,960 challenges that you yourself have faced with this so far? 336 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,280 And if yes, then how did you kind of overcome them? 337 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,200 So like for like what? What can people expect if they 338 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,920 if they want to adapt this in their comp formats? 339 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,040 But the biggest jump for we made with the last competition was 340 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,280 having the tasks, all those QR codes. 341 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,560 So each pilot has his own QR code and each QR code is 342 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,040 different from everybody else's QR code because effectively 343 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,080 you've got 10 different tasks. So after the task is set, within 344 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,080 5 minutes, every pilot gets his own QR code and then he follows 345 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,800 that QR code to do the event. And this is something which is 346 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:43,440 really new and has, has really made NRT possible at, you know, 347 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,080 at, at, at competition level because everybody's using the QR 348 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,320 codes now for, for setting the task. 349 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,000 So basically just just more work for the task committee and not 350 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,720 not much of a difference for the participants. 351 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:01,040 More or less remains the same. Yeah, more or less remains the 352 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,560 same. It's the task committee sets the 353 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,240 same task and it's the scoring guy that sends out all the QR 354 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,080 codes. Fair enough. 355 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,520 Coming back to the leading points tank, fine. 356 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,520 You know, pushing bar is exciting. 357 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,560 Going ahead and choosing your lines is really a thought 358 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,240 process. Like a lot of winners are 359 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:30,160 decided like that. But if we take away the 360 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,040 asymmetric that come when you're on full bar, a lot of gliders 361 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,840 would fall back below a category because most of the gliders at 362 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,720 least in C&D class are getting a letter in the homologation 363 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,640 because they are having different recovery times from 364 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,160 asymmetric on bar. So if we, let's say, take away 365 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,320 racing on bar, are we inherently making the the the the sport a 366 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:03,000 more safer one to be in? Yeah, I don't exactly understand 367 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,200 the understand the question. I think that racing will remain 368 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:13,400 racing and the main difference with no leading points is that 369 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,400 is that it, it, it becomes beneficial to follow other 370 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,240 people rather than lead out in the task. 371 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,960 And yeah, that's a downside of the MRT system. 372 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,560 Bruce, glider sizes have been in question for quite a while and 373 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,800 more or less the bigger the better has always remained the 374 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,000 norm. So when we look at performance 375 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,400 differences, what's your view on that topic and how can that be 376 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,120 equalised, if at all in future? Yeah. 377 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,720 Well, I asked the same question a few years ago and I had an 378 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,840 engineer, Rene Falcier from Switzerland, who worked on this 379 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,960 exact topic for me. And he was able to analyse the 380 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,800 difference between an extra small glider to extra large 381 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,480 glider and precisely calculate all the differences in 382 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840 performance between extra small to extra large. 383 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,760 And the overall conclusion he came to was that there was a 6% 384 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,880 improvement in glide ratio, 5% higher top speed for the extra 385 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,600 large and a 25% improvement in dynamic reactions. 386 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,480 So that's absolutely huge. But I mean, what are dynamic 387 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,320 reactions? I mean, dynamic reactions is the 388 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,800 way that the glider reacts to turbulence. 389 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,000 And so you have to remember that if you have a chunk of 390 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,200 turbulence and you have somebody with an extra large glider, 391 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,520 let's say that the the turbulent chunk of turbulence is the same 392 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,200 size as the extra large glider, you know, and then the so the 393 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,920 extra large glider will lose a bit of height because he might 394 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,840 make some pitch movements, might even get a collapse or whatever 395 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,280 and then carry on flying. Let's say he loses 10 meters. 396 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,440 Then if you've got the extra small glider going into the same 397 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,320 piece of turbulence, that turbulence is double the size 398 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,120 for him, double the size. So it's going to affect him a 399 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,360 lot more. And as I said, the calculation 400 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:24,120 is that it actually effects 25% more for the extra small glider 401 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:25,920 compared to the extra large glider. 402 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,880 So when you're considering the performance improvement, you 403 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,360 have to look at all those three things, glide, performance, 404 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:38,960 speed and dynamic effects. And that's why it's not just a 405 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,920 few small percent. It's actually much larger than 406 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,480 just the performance difference. So in short, if you're just 407 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,000 going out and chasing cross country numbers then the bigger 408 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,560 the better is always the solution and you can't challenge 409 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,960 that no matter what. Yeah, absolutely. 410 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,560 Yeah. I mean, personally, I've put on 411 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,800 10 kilos recently and I can feel an enormous improvement in the 412 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,520 performance of my glider, you know, just enormous. 413 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:09,080 So, you know, I can feel it first hand. 414 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,840 Yeah. All right. 415 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,280 On that note, Bruce, I think we have touched upon the topic 416 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,880 pretty holistically and fingers crossed you know the cat too. 417 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,720 And like other organisers who are curious, I think they can 418 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,440 find a very informative information package that you 419 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,400 have recently shared with me and I can share it in the show 420 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,640 description below as well, with your permission if you allow me 421 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,800 to. Yeah. 422 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,120 And we also have this incorporated in the scoring 423 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:43,240 system. So you know, it's, you know, 424 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,360 been used once so far. So it's still very new, but it 425 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,120 should be available for any organization to use. 426 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,240 If they wish. Amazing. 427 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,560 Bruce, thanks for your time today. 428 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,800 And yeah, keep flying off. Nice. 429 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,640 Thank you. OK. 430 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,200 Thanks a lot then. Bye bye.