You know, there's something about human psyche that when we
hear the term new technologies, it just excites us.
I mean, there's a range of emotions that one goes through.
It sounds very thrilling to begin with.
There's a hope that there's more safety in the newer technology
that is coming in. And then you start thinking that
there has been a lot of R&D that has gone on behind the scene.
There have been prototypes which have been developed.
A lot of test flying has been done by the brand or whosoever's
coming out with that new technology in their own field.
And there's a very famous kind of saying which goes around in
paralleling world, that to be the best in paralleling you have
to fly the best equipment You know that is the very first
thing that you accomplish and then everything else follows it.
So this month's topic is all about exploring new technologies
in our sport of paragliding. You know, every now and then we
see some designer, someone having the will.
And the zeal and the. Fire inside them, challenging
the status quo and saying that, hey, we're going to do things
differently and we're going to add more fun to flying.
So I thought, like, who better than bringing in a person who
has basically revolutionized flying so far?
We are used to seeing paragliders move in horizontal
direction when they're floating through air, and the vertical
energy conversion is very limited.
But this brand and the people behind it taught outside the box
and have created a toy which allows us to expand our horizons
of flying paragliders even more so.
Merging the kiting and the paragliding concept has added a
lot of fun in soaring scenarios. For now, however, the beauty of
this tech is that it is just starting out and who knows,
maybe we are seeing something similar in permit scenarios.
Maybe we are going to see something coming out like that
in racing, paralyzers in World Cups and all of that.
But we'll leave all of that to the designers and I hope some of
them, the ones which are coming on board this month, will be
able to throw some light on what's coming up.
But to begin with, this is episode number one of the topic,
new technologies. And here is a very special man,
very passionate person about his craft.
Benny Holland, he's the owner of Speed Flying School has an
amazing way of teaching and imparting knowledge and has been
instrumental in bringing this technology to life and making it
accessible to everyday pilots like me and you.
So without further ado, let's dive right into this very
holistic conversation with Benny.
Super thankful that he finally came on board and took out time
from his busy schedule because I've been chasing him for quite
a while. But regardless, it was worth the
wait. The content is absolutely
amazing and I hope you like it. Benny Gallon, so nice to see you
finally, man. Welcome to Foreign Lighting
Atlas. Thank you for doing this.
Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, no I mean you know your
content and every single thing that you put out on online is
pretty inspiring and it had been at the back of my mind as a host
of the show because this initially it was all about
information sharing. And I think the way you you guys
have new technologies coming out in the in the sport and the
amount of fun that is being had with those new technologies.
People want to know what what goes on behind the scene and and
how do you guys manage it. So I mean if if I have to begin,
you know on some mode speed flying school, like how did how
did this happen in your life and why did you, why did you start
like what's what's the motivation behind such an
amazing institute? I basically got into speed
flying when I was 20 years old and I became a paragliding
instructor when I was 22. And then I worked for a big
school here for many years. And then we separated and I
found my own school. And you know, there's just in
the state where I live here, burn.
There's like 18 paragliding schools.
So there's literally at least one school in every valley.
So you kind of, I felt like, hey, I want to do something
different. So that's kind of why I named my
paragliding school speed flying school, because we do also teach
paragliding, not just speed flying and speed riding.
And we also, we teach paragliding a bit in a different
way. We do three weeks courses.
We teach people in three weeks in a row in so-called intense
courses instead of where people just come and join them whenever
they want. And then usually they spread it
out over a year. So yeah we we try to do things
you know a little bit different than that's why I found like OK,
this this names be flying school.
It it suits also for my paragliding school.
No, for sure. And I think your your idea of
doing things differently seem to be working so well because I'm
I'm pretty sure the amount of passion you have behind the
project is is turning out some really safe and knowledgeable
pilots. But do you want to throw some
light on doing things differently, like especially
teaching three weeks intensive rather than just, you know,
going the other way around, like how everybody else plays?
Yeah, it's quite interesting. I think globally seeing the, the
standard way to learn paragliding is doing you know
like a a week course, a 10 day course or like a two weeks
course. But somehow here in Switzerland,
that's really not the standard. The standard here in Switzerland
is doing like four or five days like a basic course with the
equipment included. And then people sign up for the
license course which they have usually like a year time.
So a year to get their fifty flights that they need at least
to go for the exam here in Switzerland.
And then it it really spreads out and there's quite quite a
lot of people along the way that that stop because they don't fly
on a regular base. And if you don't fly on a
regular base, then you never really get the confidence you
shit, you know and and that subtle feeling we need in that
sport. You don't really get that.
And yeah, obviously when you do it three weeks in a row and you
really fully in there, you commit to it and you get a lot
better, a lot more confident and that subtle feeling, that
judgement for landings and things we all know.
You know how it is when you fly on a regular base?
When you go on a two weeks paragliding.
Holiday, it just feels better under the kind of opinion you're
just more confident. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. You're much more connected to
the wing when you do it, you know on on a daily basis and
when you're not flying for a while and and you put yourself
back on the wing. And that's really the I think
the biggest advantage here on, on on course for the students
and for me as an instructor the big advantage is that I have the
same people every day. I do get to know them really
well and they all advance as a group because normally in in in
the system here we have in Switzerland it's it's a very
mixed level. The students have between three
flights and 100 flights. You know and then you as an
instructor you try to teach them all on the same day and the same
location you know and and some students they they want a
thermal and stay up two hours and the other ones would not
like to fly at all while there's thermic air and and turbulence
out there difficult to you know then to make everyone happy.
And and here at least the people have all more or less the same
experience. You know there's still people
that want to fly more thermals and some that want to fly less
thermals but at least they have very similar experiences and
that makes it much more easy for me to teach them and and to kind
of you know bring in like a continuation a a progress in
during the course. You know start with easy flights
with with you know big landings easy take offs and and then you
can progress during the course with the whole group because
otherwise there's always some beginners in the group where you
can't take to an advanced landing site or take off site
because it's early for them. They're not ready for it yet,
then. And here this is a lot less of a
problem. Makes total sense.
And I think safe preparation is the word that we we should be
mentioning here because there are many more, many other ways
to progress as well. But if you're shedding your
balance when progressing, then it's not a lot of fun.
So progressing safely and confidently.
But you know I mean you you seem to be pushing the limits quite a
lot with your with your flying yourself as a person.
Do you do you get students who kind of are inspired by your
lifestyle and kind of want to become like you know follow down
your lanes and and and do you have like in in like what I'm
trying to understand is the psychology of an instructor in
those cases. Do you do you try to hold back
or do you try to like you know give as much as you can even
though it's it's very early stages for them because I
certainly resonate when I when I was kind of learning this for I
wanted to go all guns blazing and the the and I did not have
enough trust in my first instructor whether he was giving
me the right amount of push and pull at the same time.
So also do you find those situations if any like
challenging to navigate or what's what's your way out of
those members? It's funny, I don't think I'm,
I'm pushing the sport really. It's just I'm just interested in
new things, you know and you know with new technology like a
flare system, now what if those parachites, there's new
possibilities popping up and I just like exploring what is
possible if using new things. I don't think I do very extreme
things, you know, I also fly them quite a lot.
They might look extreme for you or for for somebody watching it.
But understanding the technology and understanding my experience
with that new technology behind it, for me this is mostly
totally comfort zone. Like I try not to do things
where I'm scared of. But of course, for other people
this looks like this is crazy and they can't imagine this
because they're they don't know the technology and they don't
know what is possible with it and how much experience someone
has put into it. That's why it might look crazy
to me. You know, I tried to always be
in the comfort zone and that's also where I teach my students
like paragliding or also speed flying or speed riding.
It should all be done in the comfort zone.
You're up in the air and you there's always that risk of
falling down. You know, like it can be bigger
or smaller, but it is gravity and and you just can't cheat it.
Whatever goes up can go down. And you should never forget
about this and lose that respect.
I think that that's very important and I think sometimes
for for people coming from different sports, you know, like
climbing or bodybuilding or whatever, there are sports that
you have to push the limits. You know, if you're a sports
climber and you want to climb a or 9th grade one day, you have
to push the limits. You know you have to keep on
going even if you're scared, even if your hands can't hold on
anymore, you still have to push and and just go for it until you
just slip off and fall into that rope.
And if if you can't push there, then I think you have a very
slow progression. And I think it's super important
to understand in those air sports that this is not the
case. This might be beneficial when
you try to learn Akura Munu first for a while, that when
you're, you know, a bit of a bold pilot, you progress a
little quicker, but essentially you will get a bad experience
and it's going to throw you back a lot and you'll be way more
scared than ever before and maybe never even overcome that
bad experience anymore. That fear and you've actually
slowed yourself down a lot more then you've gained with with
pushing a little bit too hard. You know, and I I really try to
get that to students across. It's sometimes hard you know
because they see what all the things I'm doing and and then I
tell them not you know to push too hard at the same time.
But yeah, that's obviously I'm trying this.
Yeah. No, I I, I yeah dilemma.
But honestly, you know, the question pops in my mind that
you started when you were 20, 20 by no means is is an early start
in in a lot of conventional sports.
You know, because I I do come from a commercial sports
background. And over there they said that
you have to get into it at 7 or 9 or like you know, early 10.
Like like for example a soccer player if you want to be the
best in the world. Like by the time you're 1415,
you're already building up on your international career and
some even debut at those like 1617 ages.
Aerial sports is very different. But at least the glory that the
competing or dissatisfaction that humans are chasing, that
they're looking from competing is kind of same as it is in
conventional sports. You know, like you're you're
becoming better of other people and then there's a like there's
a reward for being better. How did how did you chose, I
mean even if you didn't like push the limits outside but like
what was your definition of pushing the limits within
comfort zone and how did you navigate that risk versus reward
spectrum while you were trying to get better version of
yourself every day, even though the age that you started was a
little bit later that a lot of pilots these days are starting
and I mean you you see pilots flying competition wings at the
age of 1819 and and and World Cups already.
Well, I first of all, I don't think I'm like that good of a
pilot as, as you might think. You know, I think there's like
so many better paragliding pilots out there than I am.
I've never done a single paragliding competition.
I meant speed flying as well, like the whole.
Ecosystem. Many speed fly pilots that can
do what I can do or or have even a better level and and speed
riding anyway because I'm not that good of a skier, you know,
I really don't think I'm like a exceptional pilot.
You know I think some of the things I'm doing is is is
actually pretty easy to achieve for somebody.
But what you know what sometimes people think I might be such a
good pilot. It's just because you know I'm
I'm kind of exploring that new technology and and you know
showing things that haven't been done before with that new
technology. But I don't think it's actually
that difficult you know and and you know I think with that new
technology there's going to be many people that can do things
like that you know, Yeah. So, so again it's for me it's
it's not as extreme. I think a lot of it is that new
technology that makes thing very easy.
But you know, if you don't realize that, you think, wow,
this is crazy. Yeah, all right.
Now I get it. Like Instagram versus reality is
is a different version and of course I I see you from a six
inch screen every day. So it's a it's a very different
than the procession I believe talking about new technologies
Benny Go for Global basically came in and kind of redefine
what having fun means and increase the spectrum.
What was the thought process behind like like how did how did
this project originate because I I saw young Baptiste you know
putting across a video and like pretty much going crazy and then
like when I when I look at the website on like golf Red Global
you have you have the other Benny Benny bully and Ireland
like he is one of the legendary I I think he's going to
accomplish very better pilot. So how did if you can just talk
about behind the scenes like how did how did you guys plan to to
come up with something like this.
I wasn't involved from the very beginning.
Skywalk has been working on this moustache wing way before I
joined them and they had a pretty much finished product.
They just never really dared to sell it.
Or they weren't like they were undecide, undecisive.
What's to market it for it? It was a closed sell wing, like
the kites. And yeah, somehow they never
threw this on the market and I started flying a lot with the
Ozone race kites on Dundee Pila and I remember exactly my first
flight with one of those kites and I realised they wow this,
this is this is awesome. This is a completely different
way of flying and it completely blow me away the the energy that
was in in the sky then the range it has and then I started
sorting around with this a lot there and and really started
pushing the limits there. Obviously always like super
loaded ground in. Yeah.
And then I started flying those kites in the mountains as well
and I just saw a huge potential and basically when you fly those
kites, you know there was I had a 7 meter 11 and a 17 and
basically the 11 meter kite did you know it collided like a
paraglider almost and it had the speed of like you know 6-7 meter
speed when it was just incredible machine like it, it
puts every other speed flyer I have ever flown.
It just makes it looks like a kids toy, basically.
So it's like it's like a it's like a speed wing on steroids,
but totally. Yeah, totally.
Like there there was such a huge step from from those speed wings
to this kite, you can't imagine. It's like going from an A wing
to probably like a, you know, competition hang glider kind of
thing. Wow.
Hidden performance. It's just unreal, you know?
And then I hear. That I mean just for the just
for the perspective of our listeners, you basically attach
the kite risers on on Karen winners and that those Karen
winners were attached to a primary in hardness and that was
your setup when you were having fun.
Exactly. Yeah.
Wow. Do they have those kind of
riders? Like is it possible to fit in in
a paralytic hardness? Like can you put a board
hardness and and like a kite and and kind of make it work.
Yeah, yeah, it actually works. Pretty simple.
Amazingly simple. It works, yeah, yeah.
But it's still a kite, you know? And if this thing does collapse,
they might not reopen, you know? So as long as you don't fly, you
know higher than you want to fall.
I guess this is a good thing to do.
But once you start flying a little bit higher, this is
definitely not safe. So basically you got a really
fun overboard. Like, I mean, you were at the
Hind, which was what was skimming the ground and you were
going super fast and yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I didn't give you the report.
That was just, you know, I was I.
Was giving an example like like so you were basically skimming
the height hole but it was not the best example.
But that sounds so much fun like proximity to the ground, because
then you can just feel the speed and sense the speed a lot more
than normal normal link or. Normal flying.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, that's totally how it was. Yeah.
And then basically, I hear that Skywalk had this project, they
called it Sky Carver. And I was like, hey guys, if
there's any way I can help you with that, Like I'm, I'm totally
in. Like I I think this is the
future of soaring. And I showed them, you know,
what I've done with the kites and videos and I showed them as
well. Like this is, I think, soaring
and speed flying. This is this is the future.
Yeah. And then you know Benny Belli,
he came over one day with his old prototypes and we flew them
here and started that project again.
And Benny basically then, you know, two years later finished
the project more or less on his holidays and came out of this
moustache. Yeah, yeah, it's we're super
happy with it, with the product and also with the way it's it's
working with how people are using it.
For me it's I see it like a perfect wing that enables people
to fly on the coast in stronger wings that have not been flying
in in that strong winds before. You know I I can also take a
speed wing or I can take a mini wing or I can fly A2 liner you
know and sore even 50 KS of winds.
I I have the skills to do so but for as I say for the regular
pilot he he he's not going to want to fly a enso in 50 KS of
winds you know. But he can safely and like,
relax, do this on a moustache without having to be a
superhero. And this is, this is fairly easy
on a moustache. So it it really makes this
strong wind flying accessible for a big range of pilots.
You know, it's obviously, you know, it can go fast and you
have to be able to deal with the speed, but it makes coastal
soaring so much easier. And I think that's why there's
so many stoked pilots, you know, flying a moustache and obviously
as well because you have the ability to to dive and to
convert your speed back into lift and and that high stability
and you don't have to worry about collapses.
So yeah, in a way it's it's more fun because you you have that
extra dive you can you can choose how high you want to fly.
It's not the wing or the wind that decides on which height on
the Ridge you're actually soaring.
It's it's you by holding the toggles higher or lower and
making more or less lift and and that that's really cool, you
know because then you when you fly close to the ground you get
that sensation of speed and you're not just stuck up there
and and thinking like OK how do I get down what what can I do.
And that that accessibility that it's it's really easy to fly a
moustache in on the right spot. I think you know it.
It can't be difficult obviously, top landing it again on on small
spots and things it it, you know, you need certain skills.
But in general people are surprised how easy this is to
fly, you know? And yeah, now I think we've made
the same step with the line, the flare line.
It basically makes flying close to the ground, whether this is
snow or sorry grass and we fly after grass.
It just makes it safer because you can climb a lot more.
You can increase your glide ratio a lot more than you can do
on a classic speed wing. So if you're flying close to the
ground and there's something ahead of you, there's sinking
air or whatever, and this you need lift.
You can get a lot more lift from that wing, basically.
And to stay along the ground you have to do less turns.
You can, you know, if you have a good slope, you can just go
straight down the slope without having to do any turns to follow
it just by going hands up and and down.
So this is like it's can be literally really, really easy,
Yeah. No, I love it and I think it
sounds like unlimited fun basically whenever you have
these wings and over your head with the amount of possibilities
that you said, you know, within their spectrum.
But I'm I'm curious, Benny, like when you explain it that well
what is the most boring flying that mustache or lion can offer?
Like where do you where do you start?
Like if if you're a paralytic pilot and and you don't know
what speed wings are and you don't know what mini wings are
but somehow you see the the content and and the technology
and and all of this amazing things out there and you're keen
to get your hands on one of the mustaches and lions.
First of all is it doesn't make sense to to grab even the bigger
sizes of one of these and and secondly, what do baby steps
under these wings look like for someone who's coming off from
from just paragliding background and not smaller wings?
Yeah, I think it's it's super important to realize that a line
is made for speed flying and a moustache is made for soaring.
So if you're a paraglider pilot and you take a moustache on a,
you know, normal paragliding take off with, you know, no
soaring possibilities, you can totally take it off there.
Even if there's no wind, you can land it, you know, if there's a
big landing, it's fairly easy. I think if you know how to
inflate it, how to launch it, you know, people get along
pretty quickly. But you you can't really get the
sense of what this actually can do, you know?
So if you really want to try a moustache, I think you almost
need to sort it to realize what this thing is capable of doing.
Like I usually tell people, the moment you realize what the
moustache is actually capable of is when you stand on a dune and
there's like 50 KS of wind blowing in your face and you
stand there with a 15 or 18 meter wind without leaning
forward, you just stand there and you think could be more
wind, you know? And you exactly.
There's almost sand blowing into your eyes and and you know this
is fucking stormy and and you know, exactly like I would not
stand here with any other wing, not even with a mini wing but
it's totally easy for a moustache.
I think that that's like the moment where you realize what is
wing actually, how much this is a game changer you know.
So yeah basically it makes sense to take a touring to really
really understand the possibility of these things.
But it's it's super easy just to take a 20m, a 22 meter moustache
or even an 18 to a normal take off with a little bit of a
headwind and you have a bit of a valley breeze at the landing.
I think it's really not a big deal.
You know there's there's a lot of pilots that can, that can do
this, you know, and they'll they'll figure out how to fly
these things fairly quickly. You know, I would say, I think
the most important thing is that you try not to land on a small
landing. Same thing with a line.
They're kind of hard to, let's say, to to make a spot landing
at the beginning. You know, usually at the
beginning people end up a little bit, come a little bit short or
go a little bit far. Yeah, you kind of have to get
used that a little bit. It usually usually flares
further than they think, you know, And then people come back
and they're like this thing flares forever.
And I'm like it's what I call flare.
I think the way you guys are going is looping in skydiving it
seems soon going to be out of fashion because paraglider seem
to be having a lot of fun with these technologies and for a lot
less money basically. I think so too.
Yeah, that's that's amazing. But you know, I mean I was
wondering from paraglider's perspective when we try and
learn a few things in paragliding after kind of
graduating from the school like after having the basic knowledge
of an instructor now I I personally felt that it was it
was very difficult for anyone to say that OK I'm, I'm going to
I'm going to put in this much of money every year and save it up
and and spend it on Sivs because OK, you can pay for someone
instructors up to a certain point where after that you have
to learn and figure out figure it out yourself because it's not
financially sustainable to hire an instructor every time you go
out there and push the limits. So I naturally tried to you
know, start looking at videos and start looking for
information that was that was online and start started reading
you know posts and people's experiences.
And eventually I was like OK if I if I find a trustworthy
instructor sharing his knowledge on on YouTube on how to recover
asymmetric or how to recover spiral lab or any of these
assembly maneuvers. I can try and gain something out
of it. And I can apply it safely in my
own in in in my own training because I have been under the
training of an instructor who has shown me how to do it
correctly once. Can something similar be applied
in these new technologies where you have website, where you have
YouTube videos, where they're teaching you skills?
And even though it's a brand new technology, even though you
might not have had a chance for an instructor who is
specifically trained to impart training online or flare,
because most of the instructors just know how to teach
paragliding, know there are not a lot of instructors who know
how to teach moustache flying or or line flying.
So can can people look at YouTube videos and try and, you
know, learn something from it while staying safe?
Like is it a good idea? Or should should everybody just
try and reach out to one of the schools who are teaching this
and then only put their trust over there?
I think it's never wrong going with an instructor, but as you
said, there's not that many instructors out there that
already have experience with with parakites that can actually
teach people you know like more that you know.
You can find on our, for example, flair tutorial videos.
Anyway, I think you know someone that has a decent amount of
experience in paragliding, he's going to figure it out really
quickly by himself. Someone that is pretty new that
has basically just got his paragliding license.
He can go on on a moustache or even on a line pretty quickly as
well, but he needs to be smart about it.
So both wings, they, they have quite a lot of roll.
So I think you have to be able to deal with the roll that that
you don't start rolling around, you know, uncontrolled and you
have to be able to deal with the speed or you have to, you know,
be able to learn with it. So you have to fly big enough
size first you know and not go on a too small size too quick I
think for both wings. It's it's great to start with
ground handling obviously run around on a field and and you
know get to know the stall point get to know where the you know
the the the maximum lift is and everything.
And if you've done that you're going to be already very
confident on launch and and landing is also going to be less
of a problem and yeah especially soaring A moustache I think you
can really if you have a good spot like sandy spots on dunes
you can really learn that yourself easily.
You know that's why we have made those tutorial videos you know
on YouTube with flair to to give people pilots the the knowledge
they need to have to fly these things.
But it's funny because the other brands don't do this for their
standard paraglidis. It it, you get the impression
that these things are super extreme, like a moustache is
such an extreme wing and you need a special education and
everything to be able to fly one.
It's not at all like this. It's just because the moustache
was the first parakite out there and there's some things you
know, there's some bad habits that that you know, that can
fuck you up on on launch if if you're doing this.
And that's why we we made those videos, you know.
But once it's very few things and and I think for for many
pilots it's pretty straightforward.
I'm I'm always surprised how quickly people get along with
this. I have a lot of people on a
moustache and and already on a line and I'm I'm always
surprised how quickly people figure this out.
Yeah. No, that that's good to hear
that it's it's OK. It looks something really fun.
So you you obviously, you know, figure out that if if it's a lot
of fun that that means it's a lot of work to get to that a lot
of fun part. But if you're saying it's
quicker than I think, like me including a lot of listeners
will be still to give it a shot one day.
Yeah, exactly. I think the most important thing
is in general is trying and forgiving terrain.
So if you want to go on a line, if you have skis and you have a
easy take off easy terrain, go do it on skis.
If you want to try a moustache, go somewhere there is not a
Cliff where you have the top land and for soaring you know,
go somewhere with a beach. Easy launch, you can land the
beach and maybe even sand dunes and in this environment you can
you can really progress a lot and and even make some mistakes
and it's quite forgiving. I think that's kind of the most
important thing. If you want to go and try.
Teach this yourself without an instructor, that you have a
forgiving landscape around you. Now it makes sense that the
safety net should be as wide and as broad as possible before.
Yeah, yeah. Very takes me to a point.
You know if if there is someone out there listening like you
know, I have had that mindset some myself some of the times
where I'm like this seems to be within my comfort zone and I
would like to push the limits a bit more.
We we all have that I think inherent like you know part of
our brain telling us that you you are capable of doing this
and even though it looks a little bit scarier but you want
to. So I'm just wondering if there
is someone who does not come from Coast who lives in the
foothills and is living in a thermic site still decides to
take this off on a on a on a thermic like site.
What is the worst that that can happen?
Like how does how does shitting your pants under a moustache
look like? Because under a parentheter it's
just like there are collapses and can cascade and there can be
twists and then you know it's history, then you deploy the
reserve. But like what can happen in in a
Fahrenheit if you if you put it in thermic conditions in the
mountain? I don't exactly know.
I've never had a collapse. But I tell people, just be smart
about it. You can totally fly them through
thermals. We just marketed the moustache
to not fly in thermals because it's so easy to fly this wing in
strong wind and strong wind. You know that with with 50 KS of
wind the the wind has four times the energy than 25 KS of wind
where you're normally flying. So the turbulence if you hit a
least side in 50 KS is also four times as bad.
And then if you have 50 KS of wind then you have strong
thermals in there on top and people fly hands up.
Also the moustache is going to collapse at some stage, and we
we knew the moustache is pretty collapse table, it's more
collapse stable than than any other paraglider out there
flying on full bar. But The thing is on a paraglider
there is this psychological hurdle.
Like anyone knows that has a bit of experience.
If I push that speed bar, I'm faster, but I'm more likely to
get a collapse, and if I do get a collapse, more likely to lose
control at least. Anyone that has done an SIV and
pulled some, you know, speed bar, asymmetrics has that
respect built in from then on definitely.
Yeah, but that that that hits you, Yeah.
Exactly. You feel it and you get that
respect, you know, that's a good thing about doing an SIV.
So there's that psychological barrier of pushing that speed
bar. And with a parakite, with those
risers, this is completely gone. It's super easy to go hands up
and people go hands up all the time.
There's zero psychological barrier of going full speed.
And we were aware of this. And that's why, you know, we
tried to keep people safe and warn people like, hey, this
thing is super stable, even full bar, which is only hands up, you
don't have to push anything, but it can still collapse, you know.
And that's why we've marketed like don't fly in thermals and
blah blah, blah. But in fact, it works as well as
on a paraglider or actually even better because it's more stable.
But we didn't want for people fly brainless in 50-60 KS of
wind with strong thermic in there because we knew they were
going to go hands up without thinking about it.
And that's the whole reason behind it.
So when people want to fly through thermals, I just tell
them go for it, do it, but fly in best glide, which is quite
low on your hands. That's the normal trim position
on the paraglider. Don't fly hands up and then your
wing is maybe not more stable, probably it is more stable.
But if you do get a collapse, you're not flying fully
accelerated, so you get a collapse.
When flying slow, the collapse is going to be a lot more gentle
and you can react to it better I guess.
So basically that's what I recommend.
People just fly through thermal slowly and fly active and then
there's no worries about it. What's what's the collab
behaviour difference between a moustache and a regular fire
layer like? I mean, how would ASIV look
under a moustache compared to a regular fire layer?
That's a good question. You you can't pull collapses on
a moustache. You can.
You can do pull ups on the A lines even.
With even with the collapse lines like we do on Yeah, you.
Can have those lines. It would works, yes.
It is actually pretty gentle. The reaction from the moustache
to collapses because the wing is quite soft.
It's not tensioned a lot, it's it's built in a very forgiving
way, surprisingly forgiving. I would say it's not any worse
than a sea glider, but it's just a rough guess.
But when you when you take a collapse and you go hands up,
then the glider is accelerated. And a glider that is fully
accelerated, it doesn't have a lot of pressure inside so it
takes a long time to inflate to reinflate.
You can. You can very well notice this
when you do big ears and you have the speed bar pushed and
then you let go the A line. Then on a lot of Gladys the Ace,
the ears just stay in. They don't, they don't inflate
until you release the speed bar. So it's a little bit the same
thing if a moustache. If you get a big collapse and
you're just saying hands up, it takes a very very long, quite a
long time to fully inflate the gun all the way into the tips.
It works much quicker if you actually counter steer and pump
it open. If you give it a pump to
collapse side then it re inflates very quickly.
I think that's like the main difference you know.
A fair comparison would be taking a normal paraglider to an
SIV and make a full speed bar collapse and stay on speed bar
and stay hands up. Wow, man.
That's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, exactly.
That's scary. And on a musta it this is even
surprisingly gentle, like so. This is just a guess, but I
think the moustache it it would actually be more gentle than
than some other sea wings in in that case, you know, But we
don't have a lot of experiences with collapses because they
don't happen much. That's.
That's that's such a good way to put it in.
But I'm just wondering like you know when you're developing a
wing like this. I mean of course there there,
there must have been some history that that would have
gone into the into the project before it was restarted again.
But what what effort does the manufacturer or like the the
production team put when it comes to trying and feeling what
life under it looks like when it is not so good.
Like do you guys take it out and and just keep on collapsing it
again and again and keep on like how does testing look like?
What what are your protos kind of do when you were like what
were the possibilities at that time if you can just talk about
that? That's an interesting question.
In fact, I think the paragliding brands, they do this a lot
because they have to pass that certification.
So for the normal paragliding test pilots, it's very important
that their wing has this exactly same behavior recovery.
Behavior I. Think recovery behavior that it
can pass that certification and they put a lot of effort to
reach this. We we didn't do that effort.
We put a lot of effort into or especially Benny like he's the
genius behind it. You know like I'm just I'm
telling him like no it's got to go faster or got to do this
better whatever. But he's the genius behind it.
I don't understand 10% of what he does and understands, you
know? But basically we just focus on
making these things stable enough that collapses do not
happen in those conditions it's made for.
I think when you're soaring or when you're speed flying close
to the ground, it doesn't matter too much.
If you get a full speed bar collapse and your wing turns
130° or 150°, you're gonna hit the ground anyway.
You know what I mean? It's much more important that
your wing does not collapse while you're flying close to the
ground. So.
That I think is much more important case also when it
comes to to speed flying wings. You know, and I think it's the
same with with you say paramotor wings.
You know paramotor wings are also the the the full reflex.
Glide. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They just keep on going, yeah. Exactly.
They're for those, it's important not to have a gentle
collapse behavior. It's important to not collapse
at all. That's kind of a very different
mentality in a way. In paragliding, everyone is
worried about how it does collapse, but I actually rather
have a wing that does not collapse at all in the first
hand. And you know, the second.
My second worry is how the reaction is going to be.
But I'm actually happier flying a wing that does not collapse,
you know what I mean? It's it's a very different
mentality in a way. I think yeah, I find it very
easy to resonate with because when I talk to non Flyers, you
know when I talk to my friends who don't fly, they're like 2.
That's stupid. Like why are you doing this?
You know why are you going out in the air.
And the the answer that you gave me in the beginning when I was
stoked that you know the amount of effort and the the way you
fly is like it seems very exciting like the risk was his
reward seems to be a lot more higher.
So I get that question from my non flying friends and I'm like
the the the obvious like you know, school of thought is that
I want to be under a wing or I'm flying in equipment that does
not fail. Like I trust in the failure
should not happen. That is the first rule of the
game. That is why I played the game.
And I think that is what you're saying that the first rule of
this game is that the collapse does not come and that is why we
are playing it because that rule is usually it holds true.
So when we're trying to build collapse resistant, you know
when we're like putting most of our eggs in Rule #1, in Rule
number one's basket, you know, because that is like, it has to
be collapse resistant, then we can have more fun.
Why can't we get inspiration from those kites that have?
Like like is collapse a safety behavior?
Like, why can't we make rings that just don't collapse?
Like, what's stopping them, adventurers?
I think you have to ask the designers.
I'm not a designer, I'm not the genius, but I think it has a
little bit to do with it with that certification for the
paraglidis as as I said, the certification is about making a
chance to collapse behavior which which in a way stops
manufacturers maybe sometimes of building a wing that is very
collapse resistant. You can make a wing more more
collapse resistant for example by having the A lines for the
back, but if you have the A lines for the back you cannot.
It gets very hard to certify the wings because collapses tend to
be bigger and deeper and then also it doesn't work as good for
for SIVS. Yeah.
So, but I think you know that technology with those reflex
airfoils that is, is rather new that is, I mean there's many
paragliders out there that actually have reflex built in
and people just don't know. So the moustache is not like
this this crazy new wing that has a technology that no other
wing had. There's there's quite many
gliders out there but have a Reflex airfoil in there.
The mustache is just the first wing that has combined this with
those kite risers you know of those flare system and but my my
opinion or or you know my experience is that there's quite
a lot of wings that don't have Reflex and and I think that
reflex technology is still kind of a little bit in in the early
stages. You know, I think brands have
been very focused on making paragliders that have a lot of
performance climb well and that glide really well.
Like that you raised basically. Yeah.
But for any class, you know, like even even B Wings, you
know, have to have a very good performance.
But I think in the future that performance can no longer be
improved that much because you you reach a plateau.
You know, I think there's there's only so much glide you
can get with a wing that has aspect ratio 5 and 40 cells.
So I hope that in the future the brands will start making wings
that are more collapse stable that are safer and and focus
less on the performance. I think that's that's what our
market needs and and I think there's quite big potential.
But this is just a rough guess, you know, like I could be
totally wrong, maybe there there won't get much more collapse
stable. But I think there is quite,
quite some room for improvement for for making any of those
gliders quite a bit more collapse stable than they are
now. But I think it might take time.
But I have to ask you something. Very honestly Benny here because
this this question has run, has been raining in my mind ever
since I graduated from the school.
Because the first question that that that a student gets after
graduating is should I buy a A ring or should I buy a low B
ring. And when you come out as a
layman, like when you're just, you know, learning to see your
body in the air, like learning to sense how life in the air
feels like you know, it's it's it's a brand new way of
transportation that that you have discovered as a human
pushing the limits into the unknown is, is a big question
like should. And you know, I was researching
all kinds of articles. I was trying to reach out to all
sorts of information sources that should I buy a earring or
should I buy a low earring? And of course that feeling or
the intimacy that everyone has, there's an intuition which gives
you a part of that answer. Until somebody came across and
told me that dude, certifications only matter up to
a point and they're very good for the marketing perspective.
But if you really want to be a good pilot, then just go by the
feel of it and and then just go by what you see in the
manufacturer rather than what the certification is saying
about the manufacturer. Because certification does tell
you how it reopens or how it kind of recovers, but it does
not tell you how often it gets into that configuration or how
often it gets to shit. And then like then I started
reading the the the documents, the certification documents,
like what kind of you know, like the details about it.
But is certification a bit more irrelevant than what it is?
And is it holding back the R&D in in in the sport of
paragliding at least up to some point because people are
emphasizing on something that that that does not really have
that kind of weight so much? I think it's great we have that
certification. If you wouldn't have the
certification then you know brands they they would cheat a
lot more you know and I think the the wings will be a lot
sketchier out there. There would for sure be brand,
you know probably big brands that that totally have the trust
from from the customers and and you know try not to cheat but I
think there will be quite quite some gliders out there that are
doing quite well. But for certain you know
configurations for certain manoeuvres or something they
they will totally fail because no one, no one will test it you
know. So I think I think it's good we
have, we have that certification system but in a way it's also a
little bit overrated. I think there's still quite
quite differences I think from 1 glider to another and and also
as you said it, it only says how a wing reacts when it does
collapse. It doesn't say how much it takes
until a wing does collapse. That would be actually a very
interesting you know number if if you could compare this, but
that's obviously impossible to do.
But I think that that's quite a, it's quite an important thing as
well, especially with smaller wings when you fly close to the
ground because having a collapse close to the ground is always a
bad thing like it doesn't matter how gentle or bad the collapse
is, is going to be you know. So I think anytime you fly close
to the ground it's it's really important to not get a collapse
at first hand. Makes sense.
You know, I mean, I could keep on going on and on about this
question. It is so deep and so interesting
with certification and and the amount of fun that it allows you
to have. But the the profile of a guide
which basically inflates the leading edge, you know, there
are so many kinds that inflate the leading edge and after that
they just don't collapse. Like they're not like the foil
guides. Or maybe are they the fault,
like, you know, the the the kite that builds a tube on its
leading edge, which you inflate? Yeah, why can't we have that
technology to resist collapses in paragliding?
Like what's what's stopping us to make paragliding is
completely collapse resistant with something like that which
is flexible yet kind of topic when you need it.
I think that it is back in the days, but I think that you can
still fall into your own wing. You know, I think at some stage
it it might be good that the wing actually keeps CNM
collapses but honestly I haven't done too much research of that
but I know this is all been tested and they've all came away
from this. Also like closed cells like the
the foil kites have like you know air wolves or airlock
system that the air goes in but it can't come out anymore of the
of the paraglider. This is all been tested and and
this is all been not used anymore because it was too
dangerous you know. So I I guess at some stage it's
good if things can collapse. So, so, so the collapse, Sorry,
go ahead. Who knows, maybe maybe we'll
have again wings in the future that that have an air loss
system. I don't know.
I think you get a bit more stability if you have a closed
cell wing than than when you have the leading edge open.
But yeah, we'll see. Time will tell.
Probably not for Thermaline, but, but who knows, maybe maybe
Mustache Tan is going to have closed sales again, I don't
know. I don't think so, but yeah.
No. So we can stay excited because
at least the mustache one has has promised to deliver so much
fun. So the the time coming upfront
looks really amazing. Benny, I quickly want to talk
upon you know the topic of analysing a few things but but
but analysing challenges in in in in the art of light that we
want to practice. But before I I get that I I want
to get some perspective from the from the manufacturer side
because you have been involved in some way with with with these
new technologies that are coming and and redefining the way you
have fun in the air. Often we have seen you know
designers break away or merge or like come out with their own
version of revolutionary technologies and having fun.
Like you know there are designers who are who are
working with big brands. Saying that I am, I'm going out
and starting my own brand and brand wiring still reputable
names. And when you see like we we see
gliders going in from three liner CS to two liner CS and
then 2.5 B and you know like every every other time and there
there is a new product launch. The manufacturers claims that it
is the safest way to have fun and at this risk versus reward
spectrum. When a customer has to place
their trust in a new product, what kind of research can you
put behind like how do you determine that, what amount of
R&D and what amount of effort has gone into bringing this
product out. Of course the legacy factor and
and the marketing and various things will tell you a lot about
the brand. I'm not denying that.
But still when a brand come up with a brand new technology, how
do you as a customer or if if you were in a customer's shoes,
how would you determine, but you know if if this is worth my
effort. And then along with that if you
can just tell us a little bit like how did life look like when
this project even though I understand that you were not the
the project lead for this, but how did life look like in in
manufacturers term during those days at that time?
I think for most customers for most pilots it's it's impossible
to to figure out and how much effort has been put into a wing
from a brand. And I also think it doesn't
matter sometimes those designers that they Draw Something and the
first prototype, it's amazing at Swing doing speed wings we, you
know we've we've tried 10 prototypes and at the end we
went for the first one But obviously, you know I think
they're wings that brands make I don't know 30-40 fifty
prototypes because they they needed to reach what they want.
So I don't think it matters how much effort has been put into
it. What matters at the end is to
find the product and how it's working.
You know, how stable it is, how good it climbs, how good the
performance it is and and how safe it is.
But I think for a normal pilot is even for me as an instructor
this is pretty hard to find out these days.
Yeah. So I think I'm kind of, I think
there's something missing in our community.
I was thinking the other day about making a website that
would basically record all the collapses or all the incidents
with every wing. So every wing on the market out
there would be registered on that website.
And then every pilot who had an accident or almost accident or
some kind of incident with this wing basically puts it up there.
So in an ideal world, every pilot would do this and then you
get, you know, let's say, 100,000 people there and and
there's there's going to be a ton of data.
And then you might see, oh, this wing, oh, there's a lot of
people that have accidentally spins this wing while
thermaling. And with another wing, you see,
wow, this is almost never the case.
No one's ever spent this wing by accident while thermaling.
But there's some issue with collapses with this wing or
whatever. So I think that would be very
interesting to see and and would give us that missing data.
We don't know. You're right, if you read the
market, the marketing text from a, you know, from a brand that
brings out the new win, you basically feel like I can't fly
the old model anymore. It's not that I need to have new
one, It's like I'm risking my life just.
Because of. Money, you know, kind of an I'm
an idiot. Like the new have had so much
more performance and it's so safer like got to get the new
one, you know. Yeah, happily pilots don't fly
next to the old model because there will be very few
difference they will be very disappointed in, in the
difference of extra glider ratio they get, I think So this is, I
think to me this is very overrated nowadays.
There's so little, you know steps to be made in performance
from one one model to another. Not always, but but a lot of
times it's it's very minor differences.
Yeah, before I jump onto the next one, I quickly I forgot
forgot to bring this up. Your tech tech has basically
increased the speed. Do you widely sometime down the
lane see the speed of triple C wings increasing when you know a
little sprinkle of this technology that you guys have on
mustache? Not at all.
I think CCC gliders are faster than a mustache.
The mustache is actually not a very fast wing.
I think there's many two liners out there that in the same size,
they would have the same speed of moustache or are even faster
than a moustache. What, Because the moustache has
actually a quite thick airfoil it has with with actually
limited the speed. Or Benny has limited the speed
from the moustache on purpose for stability.
So a lot of people think the moustache is that crazy fast
wing, but it's actually not true.
It's it's actually much more designed for stability than for
speed. But the CCC wings, they are more
for speed and glide than for stability.
Yeah, yeah. Makes sense?
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's
CCC wings that have a bit of reflex in there and there's CCC
wings that don't have it. They're they're supposed, yeah.
So this is, as I said, this is not a crazy new technology in
the moustaches. I think it's just a smart choice
of parameters for that type of wing that Benny did.
Makes sense. But I'm curious when you say
that you you guys had to limit the speed on this because it was
it was getting probably getting way too fast and way too much
fun for everyone. But do do you guys fly one of
those you know factory grounded no limited like no holes bar
editions that that you guys accept for yourself or or do you
do you guys fly there the commercial ones as well you?
Know it's the moustache always been limited.
We haven't actually made much faster moustaches.
But when you couldn't if you want to.
Limit it. But if Benny would want to make
faster moustaches, he would clearly know how to make them
faster. But he has already from the very
beginning decided to not make it very.
Do not make it crazy fast, but to make it more to build it more
for stability instead of speed, you know.
So if we we fly the standard mustaf.
No that exciting. Anyways you know coming back to
the Gray area that you said when new technologies are you know
it's it's almost impossible for a customer to kind of put their
effort and kind of put nowhere to research to know how how much
effort has gone from manufacturer's side.
And of course we've seen people getting surprised of course
unknowingly when trying out new technologies and two layer CS
and 2.5 liner BS which probably will go to blue liner BS as
well. The way we are progressing we
see people kind of getting into unpleasant situations and I've
I've seen you you've had extensive write ups of how to
deal with those kind of things and how to figure figure out.
So if if someone has to do that kind of like research that that
you put in while writing those write offs like is it just from
experience or is there a certain way of things that you look at
how wing behaves or like how do you how do you gather the
information that that gives you the that that outlook on a on a
on an incident or a new wink. Basically, that's what I'm
curious about. I think it's super difficult as
a normal pilot. There's there's not there's not
something I can I could say like OK this is this is how you know
you can figure this out. How wing should be.
How a save wing should look like you know this is like even even
for me I'm I'm not 100% sure you know which way you save it than
another it is this is so hard to tell and and at the end the only
way you can tell is you know by by you know making thousands
thousand wing and sell them and after three years you see how it
worked. You know basically that's you
know also for the brands you know they they know A wing very
well but at the end of the day you these are test pilots and
and you know if a test pilot doesn't want to get a collapse,
he doesn't get a collapse. But how the customer that flies
that B wing that is not a test pilot, how he gets along with
it. It's always a bit of you know
mystery also to the brands and that's what the market shows in
those two, three-year cycle where the wing is, is used you
know. So I think it's it's pretty
difficult to to to find these things out and it's mostly
experience and personal experience, but also experience
from other pilots videos. I've seen stories that pilots
have told me things like that. Makes sense and thank you for
your honesty because IA lot of people in this situation if
they're represented or like were face off a brand would just say
that no we we have done the research so just believe us for
it but I think as you said wait for the technology to be there
for a while before putting you know your trust into it is it is
am I getting it correctly. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean, sure, we, you know, we've flown those wings.
Before the moustache was sold there were I think we had 10
moustas for 1 1/2 years or almost two years that have been
flying in in you know from from good pilots all over the world
in in in you know extreme situations in very different
situations. I was using it for speed flying
some other guys were soaring with it and and you know
together we've we've collected many, many, many hours on on
those moustache on those pre sealed wings before it actually
got sold. And same thing now with the with
the line we've we've done hundreds probably 1000 you know
flights with with different line wings and sizes before it's been
sold. So we we know that it that it's
working but again you know we we also know the limits of it and
when not to use it and and and what to do if it's turbulent you
know and how the customer essentially uses it then it's
another thing which is always a bit of a question you know.
Yeah, I feel like there should be an industry standard like I
don't know if it is there in commercial aviation or when when
many have these fighter jets which have been produced on the
like military lines that there there should be a wing that
should go under mandatory amount of hours of flying before it is
out there in the in the market. Because I think as as a
manufacturer with some bit of financial backing, it's so easy
to approach a factory who manufacture these kind of
things, say that hey, here's the money, here's the minimum model
quantity, let me get my toys and let me go out there and market
them as best as I can and try to make a living out of it.
So I think if if we have that standard where the amount of
test flying hours are are kind of dictated that you need these
many hours that will that will be a really good standard for
the industry in in time to come with us.
It sure would help, but I think that at the end is, you know
it's still the certification that or or some kind of
certification that that needs to be there before a wing you know
can be sold. And you know at FLAIR we would
like having a certification for the moustache, but this is not
possible with the current certification.
You just can't put a a moustache through that.
It's just not made for this, you know.
But who knows, maybe one day we'll have something in the
future. What scares me is that we as as
a as a consumer are basically making Instagram videos as
certification. You know, like the algorithms
that show us the social media is what is playing with our minds
as consumers that hey, that wing looks so much fun that wing does
not see. We don't see a lot of gnarly
stuff about that wing out there. And it basically subconsciously
is telling your brain that it's OK to put trust in that wing but
that's through a six inch phone screen or A5 inch phone screen
which does not tell you the reality and certification being
very limited, you can only put so much trust into that.
So it's it's kind of like lost part that I'm I'm, I'm searching
like the answer that I'm searching for.
But the only way is that OK man, if you're so keen then go out
and try for yourself. But then then in in today's
digital age like I wish we had bit more data points with the
help of AI and everything to you know just streamline this a bit
more because there's a substantial amount of people
doing this to make it commercially viable to to invite
that kind of R&D into our sport and to make it more accessible
and and and get even more people.
We are the joy of the out of flight that we all have.
Yeah, I totally agree. It would be nice to have more
data as I said, you know, like that website or whatever for me
would be it for sure would be nice also for the brands to have
more accurate data about how the wings work, you know and and
yeah, in real life with with the pilots that it's made for, I
think yeah, maybe you know you you talked about the progression
at the beginning of the the show and whether it's paragliding or
or speed flying or speed writing.
I think as I said, it's important not to push the limits
and not to get bad experiences because you know, it throws you
back you you're going to get fear which you might deal with.
You can deal with it or maybe not, you know, like I've I've
once used my reserve while flying thermals and I couldn't
fly cross country for the last 5-6 years.
I had, you know, more fear than than you know, joy.
So I didn't bother flying cross country for like 5 years I
think. And now somehow last year I felt
like, hey, I want to go back into it and I still have fear,
but now I have more joy again. And so I I think it's very
important to to not rush things and to do things step by step.
You know, like there's instructors that tell you, hey,
you need three years of, you know, experience before you can
do this. I'm like, no, three years
doesn't help shit. You know, I have sometimes
people that, you know, want to come to a speed flying course
and say, you know, I fly for 20 years now, have quite a lot of
flights, and I want to get into speed flying now and then I'm
like, OK, how much flights do you have?
And they're like, oh, I didn't count, you know, sounds very
experienced. And then I'm like asking, yeah,
is it 20, is it 200, is it 2000? And they're like, I'm sure it's
one 150. And then, you know, OK, he did
150 flights in 20 years. Like, OK, you should better not
speed fly. You know, I'm, I'm really not
the instructor that tries to hold people back from
progressing. I think it's amazing if someone
wants to progress quickly, but you have to do it step by step.
So especially speed flying, speed flying is it's it's quite
an easy to learn sport. It looks really extreme and it's
obviously very dangerous if you fuck it up, but you can get into
it very quickly. You can, you can get on a
smaller size pretty quick if you know if you're not working, if
you can go fly every day and you can get your flights numbers up
really quick, you can take a very quick progression.
Same thing in paragliding. The other day I had a guy here
in the course, he worked for Microsoft.
He's paragliding for two years now and he's flying at Seno and
he's flying PwC. I was like, wow, that's a path
progression. But he quit his job and all he
did, all he did in two years is paragliding.
I'm I'm sure he's a safe pilot. And I I think that's, you know,
I I always try to or when people tell me, hey, what what needs do
I be able to do to fly a moustache?
And I'll tell them, OK, you got to, you know, you're going to
have to deal with the speed and the roll and not tell them, oh,
you got to have two years experience.
Two years doesn't say anything. You know, it's there's a there's
a lot of instructors out there that that try to, you know, keep
people off from doing something because they know they're not
ready for them. But it doesn't help them.
Just tell them, oh, this is dangerous, don't do it.
You know, it's I think it's much better if you tell them, hey,
you can do this, but this is what you have to have, you know,
in your skill set. You got to have this first, this
first and this and once you got those skills then you can do
that next step and learn this safely and and and I think
that's very important, you know, and it's funny sometimes in in
the speed flying courses people are surprised of what sort of
wing I already give them. They wouldn't expect to fly a
lion on the first day you know. But because I know the pilots
and I know what they can do or not, then this works.
Yeah. So I think it's super important
to progress step by step and not to jump any steps to be safe
basically and also to be current, you know, also a common
thing I see a lot is that people think like if they can fly acro
really well, it's going to help them a ton for flying cross
country. It might help them a little bit
when they're about to fall out of the sky, but it's not going
to help them to prevent the collapse, You know, if you want
to fly cross country, what? How?
To be able to do is fly active right, you want to not let
collapses happen. And to stop collapses you have
to learn to fly active and to learn to fly active.
You can't do this in SAV Overlake.
You can learn to deal with collapses, but preventing
collapses you only learn by exposing yourself to turbulence
and, you know, learn to fly active.
Wow, so much sense. So much sense in there.
Yeah, and and I think at the end of the day, it's it's true for
for each individual thing. If you want to speed fly cross
country doesn't help you. I've had in in in the course, in
the same course I've had super experienced cross country pilot
and I've had a you know, ex student with with a half year
licence you know, but bloody good skier and you you couldn't
by looking at how they were flying.
You couldn't tell who was like super experienced cross country
pilot and who was a pretty fresh pilot.
I think that's also super important to respect is that
every discipline requires its own skills.
Of course you learn speed flying a little quicker if you're a
super experienced cross country pilot but at the end of the day
it's a different sport and it's got his own rules.
Same thing for speed riding and same thing for Aqua flying and
same thing for paragliding and and I realized that as well I
sometimes do tandem flights here in town with the tourists and
for example last year I haven't I've done one flight so when I
took my tandem out recently I realized I was super rusty like
all my speed flying all my mustache flying all the cross
country flying. I didn't it helped me 0 for
flying tandem I I really felt not comfortable doing big wing
overs and then the landing and it felt so weird to me So yeah
it's I think each discipline is very different and and he needs
if you want to be good at a discipline you need to be
current at that discipline and just because you're current at
another discipline doesn't mean you're automatically current at
this other one. I I also realized that when I'm
sometimes in spring I don't speed fly much do other things
fly cross country or mountain biking.
Then when I go back speed flying in like August then I feel like
on 11 meter rings like holy shit this is fast and I'm like how
was I comfortable on an 8m wing last fall as like this is
insane. I felt like this 8m wing wasn't
too hard to fly and now I feel like this 11 is a crazy weapon
so and it's just because you're on current.
Yeah, I think that's that's a very important thing.
I want to get across that whatever you do, if you want to
do it on a high level, you need to be current at this exact
discipline. And doing much of another thing
actually doesn't help you as as much as people think for that
other discipline. At least that's for me, you
know. But I I think it's similar for
other people. There's pure wisdom out there
like and there was many because this makes airtime as as
eventual. You know one of the metrics
where you can measure and if you haven't had airtime in that
year, does not matter what amount of airtime you have had
in previous years, you you are forgetting to feel how your body
feels. Exactly.
Totally in in paragliding, cross country flying is about airtime
in, you know, AKRO and speed flying, it's about numbers of
flights I think because the flights are short, so you have
to make it up with the numbers. No so so interesting and I think
basically what what what comes to my thought is that when when
when you as a pilot like you know nobody goes in and says
that OK I'm going to start raising paragliders for the rest
of. I mean OK there are some people
who have their inclination towards some sport but every one
of us when we start our new beginners course we are pretty
much clueless how how our minds and how our bodies are going to
feel under the wings or like which discipline will be
choosing which is the accuracy acro or cross country or one of
these speed things. But as we develop more in the
sport we try to lean towards 1 discipline more than the others
because I think it's it's financially and it's physically
impossible to practice everything as a person and get
better run. I was, I was wondering if
there's someone who says that I really want to push the limit
and like you know be really competitive and I'm going cross
country because this is more or less a paralyzed forecast.
So more of my audience is flying paralyzed.
If you're pushing cross country and acro in in paragliding and
it's it's rocking your world hard enough and then you see
these new toys out there, you know which promise to deliver a
brand new experience and make your life in the air much more
fun and in a very different manner.
And you're like OK, I kind of want to start putting my
resources there as well and I kind of want to start chasing
those those feelings like that excitement as well.
Is it possible to get better at cross country as well as you
know these freestyle kind of flying that lion and many or
mustache offers Because like really our brain somehow forget
how it was to kind of you know be the best in cross country
when it when it tries to push the limits in in in freestyle
like this or or or the vice versa.
Like do you think it is, it is possible to be in conflict of
interest in in in two types of flying.
So if you just focus on one, if you're trying to just go
absolute hover at it like you know, head down and try to do
the rest in the world kind of thing.
I don't know. I never tried to be the best in
the world. Hard to say.
I think in in many other sports this is not possible.
You know, like in in football or in skiing or in, you know, let's
say in in some more normal sports that are done by much
more people. I think the limit is just way
higher than in our sports. You know, I think overall
paragliding is still a very new and very small sport that you
know if you want to fly, you know World Cup you can progress
pretty quickly and get there. But if you want to ski downhill
World Cup, you know it's a much longer way to get there.
I think you know and you know speed flying, there's obviously
not much competition anymore and there is Akro, I guess Akro is
is pretty difficult nowadays as well to get there but probably
also not like skiing. So I think probably in our sport
there is still room to to do to you know to disciplines.
I mean look at Paul Takas, you know, like he's he's super good
at Akro. I'm not sure if he's still one
of the top pilots, but you know now he's doing ex helps and he's
flying PwC. Yeah.
So if if it is possible, then I think much more still in in the
flying communities or the flying sports than than in more
involved with longer history sports.
No definitely. And Paul definitely she does
show the like the way forward because he he he incidentally
happens to be the very first guest on paragliding Atlas.
You know he was very kind to come up and talk about the
flying in Colombia. That was the very first episode
we did. So a super fun guy to hang out
and you know what an inspiration and what what a base of
knowledge Then he you know we are almost at the end of the
show Now I I kind of wanted to your closing comments because of
course I've seen the way you look at things and the moral
wisdom you put into your thoughts.
Is there something that you wish we as pilots kind of did better
in our own flying. Like is is there something that
kind of makes you makes you agitated or angry and you just
like yes, I I wish I could change that for the community or
like I wish the community did things better in that way I.
Think what I would wish from the community to do better is first
of all being like less brand orientated.
I feel like many people are married to the to a brand, you
know and I think every brand has good wings but sometimes also
not the best wing, you know, just the way it goes.
So I think in general people are a little bit too brand minded
less, not enough open minded to other brands.
That's one thing and I think there is there should be more
more knowledge resources. You know there are books you
know by book of you know how to do paragliding and things.
But there is, you know for example, especially the mini
wing beef flying world, there isn't that much reliable or or
good resources for people that want to teach themselves.
And and the fact is that a lot of people that get into speed
flying, they don't have access to a school.
They don't live somewhere where there's actually school or or a
mentor that you know can watch their progression a little bit
and maybe slow them down every now and then or something.
And and I guess the same thing in in paragliding even.
You know. So I wish there would be like a
website with very dedicated, very good advice for those kind
of people in our community that do not live in those flying
hotspots that have, you know, a ton of schools.
You know, like here as I said, there's eighteen schools around
here and and there's so many good pilots around Interlock and
we have so many world champions here.
Kriddle Mauer lives here. You know, there's if if someone
wants to progress and become very good then there's there's
plenty of pilots he can go and seek, you know, knowledge from.
But in a lot of countries that's not the case and I wish there
would be better resources for those pilots that that live
somewhere and don't have that. No, I I completely resonate with
that answer and in fact the reason why I do that is that is
the bottom line of our show paralyzing Atlas to make
knowledge accessible to wide audiences.
And because I was one of those guys before I moved to Europe
where I I came from a place where the network of pilots was
not that big. I mean of course we we have a
very tiny and a very close knit but a very welcoming community
where you know the the the knowledgeable and experienced
ones are very open and sharing. But just the whole ecosystem in
Europe or in one of these like you know countries, Western
countries like Switzerland and the Alps and like you go to
Basano and all of that you're just amongst people who are like
basically eating sleeping and living paradigm or one of these
sports all the time. So just access becomes so much
easier. But I am doing my own tiny bit
through the world of final mining Atlas, so I don't know.
Do you guys have something similar in in in speed flying or
or should I start speed flying and start speed flying Atlas as
well? No, this is actually missing.
Yeah, I was just thinking that the other day.
There's, I don't think there's a Speed Fly podcast.
I mean, I haven't heard the front.
I mean I think to be honest it's a lot of work and and and you
probably get an got an idea but a lot of time I have to get to
to get you on the show. But it's it's a resource which
just is so magical for people who are not in those locations.
Oh. Sure, I believe you.
But I think this be flying scene is still a very small scene and
and what I've seen is the people, you know people's be fly
for let's say five years and then they're kind of saturated a
little bit. There's I think there's very few
pilots that that keep doing this for 10/15/20 years.
You know, in paragliding it's much more common.
You know pilots, they they they fly for the, you know, their
whole life. But to me it looks like speed
flying is much more of something people consume for a while and
they love it and they're totally addicted to it and then it kind
of fades off a little bit, you know, it loses a little bit.
It's it's how to say it's rush when you do it when you've done
it too much and then people go on you know and and you know
maybe fly more cross county or do akro or other things.
I've I've seen a lot of pilots that I've I've teached once and
and we're really into it and and then then kind of progress to
something else which I think it's amazing.
You know if if I wasn't a instructor in a test pilot and
you know we're we're doing all of these new things then it
might be the same for me. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with
that. So maybe we're still a bit of a
small scene for having our own podcast but I definitely think
it's it's growing to speed flying and and I I think
especially with the latest technology we have on the Parac
Heights, is it for coastal soaring or is it for speed
flying Now with a line this makes it much more attractive
flying small wings and I see more and more people flying
small wings like here in Switzerland like mini wings,
high can fly wings, you know like a pantom or a Kodi P like
those 16 let's say 14 to 18 meter wings.
They have the last few years they have become like way more
popular. There's so many pilots that have
their cross country wings. They have their Aqua wings but
they also have one of those small high can fly wings which
is which is awesome. Yeah.
I I think it's it's it's a good direction.
Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that
and and people love it. Yeah.
No, it's so nice to hear about. You know it's it's growing
progressively, you know and what what basically like what holds
me back from speed flying is, is that I think like it doesn't, it
doesn't allow you to tell you a story basically.
Like the experience is so quickly finished.
You know you you you you put your stuff in the in the car in
the morning you go out you take a ski lift up and and boom few
seconds later you're down on the ground and then you keep on
doing that over and over again and then you come back to your
home. It's it's not like like a
paralytic expedition where like OK you put your car you put your
stuff in the car, you go out there you fly for a while.
So you you you have experiences to talk about in the end of the
day when you sit after a long cross country flight or you know
in in in. I mean actual is kind of similar
where where you finish the day and come back to your own home.
But I think like the the romance of a cross country flight is
that it gives you so much to talk about that that is
basically what kind of keeps it going.
And that is why storytelling is a bit more easier in the world
of paralleling than it will be in speed flying in my opinion.
Because I like, I don't want to lose out altitude so quickly.
You know, it's like I want to be in the air.
So like this line just got so much easier now.
I don't, I don't, I don't feel my brain telling me that, Oh my
God, well I'm getting myself into.
Do you think it's it's like one of these reasons why it's kind
of like, you know, skimming, getting out of people's leg
after a while? I think so, yeah.
But you know it's at the same time it it's not for everyone.
It doesn't have to be for everyone's feet flying and I'm
glad it's not for everyone. If if every paragliding pilot
will see fly, it will be banned everywhere I think.
I remember that, and you can just invite anyone of colons.
A rescue service would get every single paraglider fighter at 11
meter on the end. I mean that that's the nice
thing about the flying, right? There's so many different
disciplines and you start with something and you eventually
move to something else because your interest shift or maybe
your possibilities, your time, whatever, that's totally fine.
You know I see a lot of pilots here that that have been keen
pilots in in different disciplines and sooner or later
they what they end up doing is is I can fly and they you know,
they run up. They fly down because they
become dads and they have family and and more busy at their job
and but yeah so they, you know they try to still stay fit and
do sport and at the same time they combine with paragliding so
they end up doing hide and fly. Yeah, that's the nice thing
about our sport, It's it's got something to offer for everyone.
For sure, for sure. And I think you know before I
let you go for the day many one of the like if you can share the
experiences like how does yeah I mean if our only sins can get a
glimpse of how does life look like in life of test pilot who's
who's getting access to all these brand new boys every time.
It's exciting. It's, it's cool always, you
know, like especially with with the Parakites now being being
able to be part of that revolution.
Yeah Especially because I'm you know I'm, I'm always interested
in in those new things and and the possibility you get with
with those new things. Yeah, I I'm, I'm super stoked.
I'm part of the flare team and yeah we are looking for forward
where this is all leading us and and bringing us you know where
where this, this flare system has potential or not.
Yeah it's we we've only just started the journey.
Yeah, I think there's there's many more great wings to come,
hopefully from from Flair, yeah. Wow.
Wisdom and excitement all summed up in in in one sentences is
what I can see you know in in time to come from from the
Blando fair. But Barry, Colin, thank you for
such an honest and you know absolute pure of an interview
from the bottom of your heart. I I think we have successfully
managed to put across to our audiences why they should stay
excited and and like what's coming and basically more fun in
in our in our sports of paralleling and speed flying.
So fingers crossed. Keep up the good work you seem
to be doing at life by making money out of this full time.
So definitely there's something right I'm kind of wait to see
what's what what comes from Goflare Global.
Thank you. Very much thanks for inviting me
and I hope to meet you someday somewhere.
And I hope to see your smile one day when you flew a line.
For life is for sure.