1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,040 Coming up today on Mini Scroll, Phoebe Gates shopping app 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,039 accused of affiliate fraud Breaking down Tik Tok's voice 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:14,040 memo guy and Margaret Quali's team denies infidelity rumors Hi 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,520 everyone. Welcome to Mini Scroll, the 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,520 daily Internet culture podcast bringing you the biggest stories 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,800 from social media, the creator economy and the digital space. 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,320 Every Monday through Thursday and sometimes Fridays. 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,920 I'm your host, Lauren Meissner, the founder of the Australian 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,200 youth digital media brand Centennial World. 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,520 Welcome back to Mini Scroll, everyone. 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Happy Monday. OK, I don't think I have any 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,760 updates for you guys, but wow, have the thumbnails and the new 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,520 titles really performed. And that was the point. 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,600 And I know it's cringe. I know the thumbnails are like 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,200 so click baity. It's not my favorite vibe 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,480 either. And for years I have avoided 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,640 really like leaning into that. But I got to the point where I 18 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,320 was like, we are producing this show every single day. 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319 And while it gets good numbers, like it is obviously always 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,840 growing. And I was happy with the success 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,200 and with our audience. I'm like, if we want to get to 22 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,320 that next level, we need to change something. 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,880 And so I worked on that little rebrand. 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,600 And even though it is cringe, I know some of you guys don't like 25 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,040 it, some of you do, but some of you don't. 26 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,000 That's fine. It has really worked like a week 27 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,680 in and we've already seen so many more views, so much more 28 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,640 engagement. So to all of our new listeners 29 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,960 and viewers, welcome. And sometimes when you're 30 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:33,920 building something and it's so hard, and I would say like 95% 31 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,720 of the time things feel like they're not working, they're 32 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,280 never gonna take off. Everything's always going wrong 33 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,160 in a start up for something to actually work out. 34 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:45,520 It's like magical, and that's what's been happening with mini 35 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,320 scroll across the board. Like you guys know, I keep 36 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,640 talking about the mini scroll TikTok, but like she is popping 37 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,640 the fuck off like 10 million views in six weeks. 38 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,160 It just makes no sense. I'm like what is going on? 39 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,760 So it's a very exciting time here at mini scroll. 40 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,280 All right, let's just get into the stories for today. 41 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:03,920 The first story that I have you guys today. 42 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:09,639 This is very mini tech coded, but it has been everywhere over 43 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,720 the weekend and we wanted to jump on it as soon as possible. 44 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,440 And of course, as a female founder myself and we are also 45 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,360 raising capital right now for Centennial Worlds. 46 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,720 Like we have a tech product that we're going to be releasing. 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,560 I've teased it here and there on the podcast for you guys over 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,720 the past couple of months. So yes, we're in the middle of 49 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,160 like a cap raise as well right now. 50 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,600 So I feel like I have an interesting or like unique 51 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,960 perspective. So I'm going to break it down 52 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,040 for you guys today instead of Annabelle breaking it down for 53 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,280 you on Wednesday. However, if there are any 54 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,040 updates it's moving forward, Annabelle will be the one to 55 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,440 cover it. I don't think I even told you 56 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,680 what the story is. So fashion tech app FIA has been 57 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,600 accused of faking sales. So FIA bills itself as the 58 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,000 Google Flights of Fashion. It's a tool that allows users to 59 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,720 compare prices on different items across the Internet. 60 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,880 A personal shopping assistant, as they say. 61 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,160 Users can download it as an app or use it as a browser 62 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,520 extension. Sophia is not necessarily 63 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,160 original in its core function. There are quite a few price 64 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,640 comparison browser extensions and tools that already exist to 65 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:16,320 help Internet users save money while online shopping. 66 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,480 Obviously, Honey is a little bit different, but it's definitely 67 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,760 the most famous example. But some factors that 68 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,880 differentiate FIA. First, the app has made an 69 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,160 effort to merge fast fashion with second hand resale when 70 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,360 comparing prices and purchasing. Second, they had a strong 71 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,200 network of investors and buzzy marketing strategies. 72 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,040 So some of the investors in Fiat include Khloe Kardashian, Alex 73 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,320 Earl, Winnie Harlow, Paris Hilton and more. 74 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,500 And of course, I'm sure you guys all know this, but it was Co 75 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:45,760 founded by Phoebe Gates, who is Bill Gates daughter and Sofia 76 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,920 Keani. So they both went to Stanford. 77 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,560 They definitely had some major connections and access that 78 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,360 other fashion tech might not have. 79 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,040 All right, so last week Ben Edelman, who's an independent 80 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,960 researcher and consultant, shared that he had been looking 81 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,480 into, quote, multiple forms of misconduct by PHIA. 82 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,840 This is a little complicated, but in the simplest terms, PHIA 83 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,760 generates revenue as an affiliate. 84 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,040 This means that the company takes the Commission on 85 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,440 purchases that are made using the tool. 86 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,200 So this may be when a user discovers a product through 87 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,000 Fiat, its recommendations, or something of that nature. 88 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:21,399 Many of us would be familiar with affiliates through 89 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:23,320 influencers sharing affiliate links. 90 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,200 We graduated from Stanford and we built. 91 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:27,360 This. It's like Google flights but for 92 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,680 shopping. It stops you from overpaying or 93 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,800 getting scammed. So. 94 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,960 How can it save you? Hundreds of dollars while you 95 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,200 shop. We used to waste hours shopping 96 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,000 online. Comparing prices looking for 97 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,560 second hand deals and wondering if we were overpaying and 98 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,240 nothing told us if the price was actually fair so. 99 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,640 We built something that. Could we had no technical 100 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,360 background, just a lot of frustration and a product that 101 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,280 barely worked at first but after months of trial and error. 102 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:53,000 We came up with this. Thea instantly tells you whether 103 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,800 you're overpaying and finds you new or second hand matches for 104 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,960 less from across the Internet. Edelman, in his review, claims 105 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,160 that Fia's app and Chrome plug in both include a setting that 106 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,720 quote automatically invokes affiliate links without user 107 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,200 action. So, in other words, FIA has 108 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,840 allegedly been making commissions on purchases even 109 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:15,040 when users are not interacting with the tool. 110 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,520 This is considered to be a form of fraud and is widely known as 111 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,800 cookie stuffing. After Edelman shared these 112 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,680 findings, major publications also started picking up on the 113 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,520 story. Bloomberg conducted its own 114 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,920 investigation, finding Quote, Fia's mobile browser extension, 115 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,040 opened a background tab with user interaction, and injected 116 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,000 its own referral code. By seemingly taking credit for a 117 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,920 sale like this, Fiat is allegedly making unearned 118 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 commissions. So if this is the case, Fiat can 119 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,480 override the actual referrals or the actual affiliates. 120 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Retailers may also have been paying Fiat unnecessary fees, so 121 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,920 the journalist spoke to Edelman, who explained Quote. 122 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,120 The most fundamental requirement in affiliate marketing is that 123 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,960 Commission is only paid if a user clicks. 124 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,280 The rules don't allow fake clicks, simulated clicks, 125 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:04,520 imaginary clicks or hypothetical clicks. 126 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,440 Only a real click will do. Now, if you did respond to 127 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,760 Bloomberg's request for comment, the spokesperson characterized 128 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,480 the issue as a bug in the code as opposed to something 129 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,160 intentional. Quote within the last 24 hours. 130 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,080 We were made aware that in a recent release, our code base 131 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,680 was causing misattributions from a subset of users. 132 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,280 As soon as we were notified, our team worked overnight to 133 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:29,160 identify, mitigate, and has since resolved the issue. 134 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,040 Bloomberg has since retested the browser extension, finding that 135 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,240 it did indeed stop claiming referral links. 136 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,360 OK, so while researchers and publications claim the issue has 137 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,760 been rectified, that does not mean that things are over for 138 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,520 FIA. Major affiliate platform 139 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,840 impact.com suspended FIA due to this behavior, noting that this 140 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:49,440 is quote, inconsistent with our platform policies. 141 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,000 TikTok users are taking to the platform in droves to discuss 142 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,040 what this means for fashion tech, female founders and 143 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,000 affiliate marketing online as a whole. 144 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,040 The take that I am seeing pretty frequently in comment sections 145 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,280 and from KC Lewis specifically, who's the author of the after 146 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,200 school newsletter, is that by quote, UN quote overriding 147 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,640 commissions, FIA may have been taking revenue from smaller 148 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,200 publishers and also from influencers and creators. 149 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,360 So in the context of publishers, there are smaller and smaller 150 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,440 budgets available. We talk about this all the time 151 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,240 in AD sales, so any added revenue could be useful. 152 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,680 Publishers have long considered affiliate commissions as an 153 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,600 additional revenue stream and publishing listicles is one 154 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,080 example of that. And then from the influencer or 155 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,320 creator side, if a user had downloaded the Fiat app on their 156 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,600 phone and they also follow a bunch of fashion influencers, 157 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,840 probably that crossover is pretty strong, right? 158 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,000 And they click on an affiliate link from an influencer, let's 159 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,560 say on Instagram or something. And they already had FIA 160 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,400 downloaded on their iOS. It is possible that FIA could 161 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,720 have been taking credit for their purchase through the 162 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,920 influencers affiliate link that they found on their Instagram 163 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,440 swipe up or something like that or their LTK, their shop. 164 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,600 My I saw people in the comments section as well saying that 165 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,400 influencers apparently have been voicing their concerns around 166 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,200 their lack of commissions from shop My, saying that it seems 167 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,440 like the Commission from shop my is going missing. 168 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,200 I have not verified this but I have seen it in the comments 169 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,680 sections and so this could possibly explain why because VIA 170 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,560 was claiming that the sales were coming from them when the 171 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,920 purchaser actually used a shop my affiliate link or something 172 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,799 like that. Via claims to have 1.5 million 173 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:34,400 users. Now I don't know that we can 174 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,000 necessarily take their word for it, but we can assume that they 175 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,039 have a very large user base. The way this cookie stuffing 176 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,200 works is they were inserting their code into every single 177 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,080 purchase, whether they were the one who was recommending the 178 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,680 item or not. I think most of us on this app 179 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,120 know how affiliate revenue works. 180 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,720 I recommend this shirt. You go and buy it on j.crew. 181 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,320 I see, you know, a dollar or $5. And for companies like FIA or 182 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,080 plugins like Honey or websites like Wire Cutter, they recommend 183 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,480 these things. They connect you to the product. 184 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:10,960 They see a cut of that. And what FIA was doing was 185 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,880 interjecting their code so the money wouldn't go to wire Cutter 186 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,040 or Honey or me the influencer. I'm not an influencer. 187 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,760 When we think about the Venn diagram of the influencers we 188 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,840 follow in love and the people who have FIA on their phones and 189 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,200 laptops, there's tons of overlap. 190 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,640 I suspect just based on Fias marketing target audience and 191 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,520 Phoebe Gates reach right that is a huge overlapping audience. 192 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,040 So think about all of the influencers over the last. 193 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,200 I don't know how long this bug has been in the code. 194 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:46,320 Via has potentially allegedly gotten, I don't know, millions 195 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,400 of dollars that would otherwise be going to these influencers 196 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,080 who are doing the work of recommending the. 197 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:53,920 Stuff. OK, so there's also quite a bit 198 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,440 of discourse around what this means for fashion tech and for 199 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,920 female founders more broadly. Sophia has recently raised 35 200 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,120 million USD in funding from investors, an amount that raises 201 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,880 questions about whether some of those same investors refused to 202 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,720 support rival fashion tech products, given how buzzy Fiat 203 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,760 has become both. Are asking the question whoa, 204 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,960 shouldn't the investors have done due diligence and uncovered 205 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,120 that this company was using cookie stuffing? 206 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,880 If you go to. Ben's site, which I think you 207 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,840 really should if you're interested in this, go to the 208 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,120 primary source. Ben walks through the code 209 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,960 review that he did and he shows that the cookie cookie stuffing 210 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,280 was actually happening on iOS only. 211 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:44,280 I think this is really important because Ben, who has been doing 212 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:49,000 investigative work into this category for 20 years, said that 213 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,840 he had never seen anything like this. 214 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,240 He had never seen cookie stuffing done on iOS only. 215 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,280 He commented as such on my LinkedIn post, basically saying 216 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,560 that traditionally when cooking stuff, cookie stuffing is done, 217 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:06,040 it's done on desktop. And I think that in a typical 218 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,360 Series A due diligence process, which is what this was, you 219 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,240 would absolutely do a code review. 220 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:14,960 I'm not expecting Alex Earl to do a code review. 221 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,600 I'm not expecting Khloe Kardashian or Kim Kardashian to 222 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,400 do code review, but I am expecting notable capital Khosla 223 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,800 and major venture firms to do a code review. 224 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,480 But I think what's interesting is because cookie stuffing on 225 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,240 iOS is novel, it likely could be missed in a typical due 226 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,840 diligence process. And of course with the female 227 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,200 founder angle it is harder to be a female founder. 228 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,520 People take you way less seriously. 229 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,160 You are under a microscope in a way that a lot of times male 230 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,640 founders are just not. For every Fiat, there's probably 231 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,520 like 100 male founded companies that are doing just as shady 232 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,600 stuff. I know there's a lot of people 233 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,080 who are like what FIA is doing. It is a it's a very shady and I 234 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,040 think a legal practice, but a lot of companies have done it. 235 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,200 OK, but like that doesn't make it right. 236 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,480 And there is much more of a microscope on FIA because they 237 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,760 have chosen to go this very like public flashy route, right? 238 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,000 The founders obviously had profile before this and then 239 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,240 they launched a podcast that aligns with their brand. 240 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,280 They're going on every single podcast, they're doing tons of 241 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,560 press, they're getting a list celebrities to invest in their 242 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,480 brand. They're raising all this money. 243 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,560 Like there is such a spotlight on them because they are using 244 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:36,120 that spotlight to fuel the success of their business. 245 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,640 So yes, female founders absolutely are under more 246 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,920 scrutiny. Male founders are absolutely 247 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,840 allowed to mess up way more than female founders. 248 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,840 But this is not a witch hunt. Like what has allegedly happened 249 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,880 here is very, very, very bad. It's very serious. 250 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,760 And this criticism is incredibly valid. 251 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,720 And it's important that we look at it right and that we 252 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,520 understand what's happened here and why it's wrong and that 253 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,160 there are consequences that happened here. 254 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,800 And those two things can exist together. 255 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,560 Like female founders can face way more criticism, way more 256 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:10,480 scrutiny. It can be way harder for them. 257 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,280 And this can also be a really, really, really seriously bad 258 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,680 situation where there need to be consequences. 259 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,120 All right. And the next story that I have 260 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,280 for you guys today, OK, I'm going to break down the 261 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,400 situation going on around voice memo guy. 262 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,000 Basically, a voice memo from a man is going viral on TikTok. 263 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,160 It was sent privately to a woman after their first date and later 264 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,800 shared on the app. Not shared by the sender it 265 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,440 seems, but by their friend. Essentially. 266 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,400 In the audio he says he had a good time on their first date 267 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,720 and wants to see her again, but only if she is willing to have 268 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,080 sex. Here is the voice memo and 269 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,160 trigger warning for after this voice memo. 270 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,840 I am going to get into some opinions and some of the 271 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,760 discourse where people feel like this was possibly sexual 272 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,320 coercion. Had a good time tonight, 273 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,800 definitely think you are lovely. However I would love to if we're 274 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,800 going to go to your place on Thursday. 275 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:13,880 I mean, I am looking to have that physical intimacy to see if 276 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,600 like I am sexually compatible with you. 277 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,840 So like if I'm going to come over like I would be hoping to 278 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,520 like hook up, have sex, have a good time, have like that 279 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:30,640 romantic spark and that physical spark there for my own sake. 280 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,120 Because it's hard for me to continue dating if dating 281 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,520 someone and seeing them if I don't know if I'm sexually 282 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,520 compatible. So I know you said I don't know 283 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,280 about that. So like, I guess my thing is is 284 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,800 like, what would be the point of me coming over then if we're not 285 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:52,040 going to like hook up and like cuddle and like be intimate with 286 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,520 each other. And if that's what you don't 287 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,480 want, that's fine. But like, I think we should just 288 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,040 like end it here then respectfully, just because I 289 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,000 first date, that's fine. Like you want to get to know 290 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,160 each other. I'm all about that. 291 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,800 But like I am looking to have that physical aspect there and I 292 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,640 don't want to continue seeing someone if I don't know if 293 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,080 that's good. If that's not, they're not so up 294 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,080 to you. Let me know. 295 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,000 I'm happy to if you do want me to come over, I'm happy to do 296 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,480 so. Would love to fuck, have a good 297 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,080 time and you know we can have some wine, hang out and chill 298 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,440 but if you're not trying to hook up then like I think we should 299 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,360 just go our separate ways. Let me know. 300 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,920 OK, so dating content tends to go viral on TikTok, so the 301 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,800 virality itself is not surprising. 302 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,480 But traction really spiked after TikTok user at Ted Kaczynski's 303 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,800 great friend shared their take on The Voice memo. 304 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,960 So she was basically team voice memo guy, and she framed it as 305 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,280 an example of consent in action. That response video hit 2 306 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,840 million views in five days. She turned the comments off, but 307 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,120 she since posted over 10 follow up videos defending the stance. 308 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,280 Anyways, the discussion has evolved into a broader consent 309 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,720 versus coercion debate, with many questioning whether the man 310 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,760 was actually practicing consent. In follow-ups, she doubled down, 311 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,560 arguing quote purity culture is worse than I realized and that 312 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,880 viewers have the quote emotional acuity of 12 year olds. 313 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,920 A video went viral last week of a girl that got a voice note 314 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,920 from a guy that she was dating and he was basically saying hey, 315 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,040 if we're going to continue hanging out, I just want you to 316 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,880 know that I am seeking a sexual connection. 317 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,120 And if you don't want to explore a sexual connection, then we 318 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,400 should probably just end this now because a sexual connection 319 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,680 is a priority to me. And this was presented as a 320 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,840 negative thing. And the comments were littered 321 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,000 with people saying men aren't lonely enough etcetera etcetera. 322 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,120 And I was sitting there thinking this is what consent looks like. 323 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,200 Y'all Like we discussed the concept of consent so much but I 324 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,360 don't think people actually understand what it looks like. 325 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,240 And that voice note is what consent looks like. 326 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,160 It is blunt, it is raw, it is obvious. 327 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,960 And that guy gave the girl a chance to be like, oh, OK, this 328 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,280 is moving too quickly for me and that's not how I want to conduct 329 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,200 us dating right now. The main pushback against the 330 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,800 claim that he was practicing consent is that the man actually 331 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,000 just put forth an ultimatum. Consent is a mutual agreement, 332 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,240 while an ultimatum is demand that requires someone else to 333 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,480 change their behavior for whatever reason. 1 is about 334 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,600 respect and the other is about pressure. 335 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,840 And he makes that pretty clear because he says in one part of 336 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,360 this voice note that he knows that she wasn't like fully down 337 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,360 for that before. As in presumably having sex with 338 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,240 him so soon. So one TikTok user named 339 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,640 Priscilla made some very good points around all of this. 340 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,560 Who? Cannot get consent from somebody 341 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,480 while giving them an ultimatum. That's not consent according to 342 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,800 RAIN. Look up what that acronym means. 343 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,960 I can't say it on here. Consent is a mutual agreement to 344 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:14,240 engage in intimate activity. It should always be clear, 345 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:21,760 voluntary and communicated without pressure, manipulation 346 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240 or fear. It should always be clear. 347 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,320 Let's not forget that he already tried to ask for her consent. 348 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,000 Hence why he said I know, you already said I don't know. 349 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,600 I don't know is not clear consent. 350 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,480 No consent folks sent must be communicated without pressure, 351 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,320 manipulation or fear. Others argue that this is like a 352 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,640 low stakes ultimatum because they only went on one date and 353 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,480 they don't really owe each other anything. 354 00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:00,280 And I hate the you don't owe anyone anything narrative that 355 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:05,360 just runs free and wild all over social media these past couple 356 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,560 of years. I think that framing minimizes 357 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,240 what is happening in that voice memo. 358 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,680 He is stating what he wants, yes, but he's also saying that 359 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,160 he will disengage if his expectations are not met. 360 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 The reason that the argument of this is great consent practice 361 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,760 feels so disingenuous to so many people is because everyone who's 362 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,680 making that argument is reframing that voice note to 363 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,120 quite a large degree. They're making it sound like 364 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,160 something very different from what it actually is. 365 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,520 You know, every single video I've seen where people are 366 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,000 saying, yeah, this is good consent practice, they've 367 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,080 started it by saying, so this guy sent this woman a voice note 368 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,640 to find out whether or not sex was on the table. 369 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,840 So then I went to listen to that voice note and I was expecting 370 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,960 something totally different from what I got. 371 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,200 Because I think there's a big difference between finding out 372 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,320 whether or not someone is open to a sexual connection with you 373 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,720 before you, like, get more serious with them. 374 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,280 There's a big difference between that and saying I'm not 375 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,040 interested in getting to know you anymore unless we have sex 376 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,560 on the second date. There is no compromise here. 377 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,320 They've been on one date they don't even know each other like 378 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,120 at all. For him to be like if you don't 379 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,160 fuck me on the 2nd date then we're done. 380 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,400 That is not consent in practice. He's not having a conversation 381 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,760 about this with her. This is not boundary setting. 382 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,680 I've seen so many people saying he's setting a boundary. 383 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,440 That is not what a boundary is. A boundary is something that you 384 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,320 impose on yourself to protect yourself or to set a certain 385 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,240 standard for yourself. Genuine consent involves 386 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,480 continuous agreement, mutual respect, and boundaries that 387 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,160 both people are setting for themselves, themselves. 388 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,960 It isn't just like one person laying out what is going to 389 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,320 happen next. And part of the nuance here as 390 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,120 well is the consideration of like, who is on the receiving 391 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,600 end of that voice memo? Because there would be people 392 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,440 that would receive this and be like, wow, fuck you, buddy and 393 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,400 block him and never talk to him again. 394 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,960 Or there's other women who might be more susceptible to that kind 395 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:02,080 of pressure. And clarity is another really 396 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,120 important part of practicing consent, which is definitely 397 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,760 something that he does in this voice memo. 398 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,960 But the way he delivers his desires is so transactional, 399 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,480 which undermines kind of like any social construct when it 400 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,920 comes to building healthy relationships with somebody, 401 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,640 sexual or romantic. Like, at the end of the day, we 402 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,080 actually do owe each other common courtesy and decency. 403 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,720 And a video by Good Noticing's podcast speaks very well to 404 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,640 this. The voice note guy is a symptom 405 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,160 of the culture that is out here litigating that voice note as 406 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:39,760 like either consent culture king hero or coercion culture evil 407 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,800 villain. When everything is black and 408 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,880 white, then it like reduces people into treating other 409 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,880 people as if we're like in a computer game, saying all the 410 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,280 right words in order to get exactly what we want. 411 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,000 We have like completely lost the ability of how to interact with 412 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,000 one another. I am a single person. 413 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,600 I have a lot of single female friends. 414 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,480 And I would say all of us have dealt with a situation like this 415 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,480 where like, most of us are OK with like casual situations. 416 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,360 However, you don't want to feel like your only purpose is to 417 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:11,480 like, have sex with this. Like the, the way this guy 418 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,280 approached this, maybe she was down for a casual thing, but 419 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,320 approaching it in this way is like, makes you feel like shit. 420 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,840 And yeah, that's because of societal conditioning, because 421 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,320 we live in a society. There are social contracts, 422 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,840 there are ways to treat each other, there's nuance, and 423 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,080 there's ways to move about a situation. 424 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,840 And everyone is so fucking gleeful to like, tear up these 425 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,440 social contracts and proceed with everyone just like looking 426 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,520 at each other like fucking robots and ordering human 427 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,360 interactions. Like you order stuff off a menu. 428 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:43,840 Like this, I would say, isn't like consent culture or coercion 429 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,440 culture. I would argue it's like we don't 430 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,680 owe each other anything Culture. And those who see the voice memo 431 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,040 as either coercion or as an ultimatum or manipulative, 432 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,680 they're not saying that communicating your needs in a 433 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,440 relationship or in a new partnership, anything that's 434 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,600 going on when you're early and dating like that, that is not 435 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,040 important. They're not saying that a sexual 436 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,720 relationship isn't important in a romantic relationship. 437 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,000 If you're going to start dating somebody, all of that is 438 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,400 incredibly valid. But that is not what he was 439 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,880 doing here. There was no opportunity for 440 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,160 response. There was no proper 441 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,440 communication like a back and forth conversation around 442 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,640 consent and the stages that they were getting to. 443 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,640 They've gone on one single date. We can't look at situations like 444 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,200 this as black and white. We can't look at it as like, OK, 445 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,760 this guy communicated what he wants from this relationship and 446 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,320 therefore green tick, there's so much Gray in every situation in 447 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,480 any type of like interpersonal relationship situation 448 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,640 conversation. And this voice memo, if you have 449 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,760 listened to it from start to finish, it is not a green flag. 450 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,120 All right. And the last story that I have 451 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:56,640 for you guys today is Margaret Crawley has denied infidelity 452 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,800 rumors. So we covered the news that 453 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,960 Margaret Crawley and Jack Anchinoff had split on 454 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,400 Thursday's episode, but I have a quick update. 455 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,720 As the Internet often does, people were speculating why the 456 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,160 pair were separating after three years of marriage. 457 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,920 Some social media users believed that there was infidelity 458 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,200 involved. One of the more popular theories 459 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,040 online was that Margaret was romantically involved with her 460 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,920 Co star Drew Starkey. However, users were also 461 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,280 skeptical about Jack Anchinoff's behavior, especially after 462 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,280 Margaret archived and then unarchived their pictures 463 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,400 together. People were questioning whether 464 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,520 there was some resentment on Margaret's end, so 465 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,880 representatives on behalf of Margaret issued a statement to 466 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,840 People denying claims of infidelity. 467 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,920 As it reads quote, the narratives running in the press 468 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,440 about Margaret and Jack are categorically untrue. 469 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,560 There are no trust issues. There was no infidelity or 470 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,680 anything outside of respect and partnership in this 471 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,320 relationship. They have deep love and care for 472 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,200 one another. There are only two people in 473 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,840 this marriage and the sources who are talking to the press and 474 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,040 commenting on their privacy are not people who know them. 475 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,920 Please respect their privacy. Jack Antonoff's team has not 476 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,160 responded to People's request for comment. 477 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,440 OK, so since we reported on their split last week, there has 478 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,760 been a lot of conversation about Jack's relationship with Lena 479 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,920 Dunham. In Fame Sick, which was Lena's 480 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,320 memoir, she spoke about their six year relationship where she 481 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,440 admitted to cheating on him. This came after he developed a 482 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,680 close bond with an unnamed teenage pop star during that 483 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,640 time, who many believe to be lured, though never confirmed, 484 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,480 and Lena says she felt cast aside as a result. 485 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,440 There is an iconic piece of Internet lore associated with 486 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,000 all of this, a 29 page presentation created by a 487 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Twitter user breaking down why she believed Lord and producer 488 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,960 Jack Antonoff had an emotional affair and that it led to Trump 489 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,680 being in the White House. Lord and Jack Antonoff are 490 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,960 responsible for the Trump presidency. 491 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,400 You haven't heard of the PowerPoint? 492 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,440 Allow me to enlighten you. In 2018, a manic genius Hillary 493 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,680 Benton created this PowerPoint detailing every piece of 494 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,840 evidence she could find that 20 year old Lord had an 18 month 495 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,120 long affair with 34 year old Jack Antonov, who was dating his 496 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,760 longtime girlfriend Lena Dunham at the time. 497 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,320 The PowerPoint also argues that the entire album Melodrama, 498 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,080 which is supposedly about her another creepy, gross older 499 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,200 boyfriend, is actually about Jack Antonoff, Lena Dunham, 500 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,680 actress, producer, and prominent millennial outreach lobbyist for 501 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,800 the Hillary Clinton 2016 presidential campaign, for which 502 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,280 she was on the road for about 18 months. 503 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,840 How long did the album Melodrama take to produce while she was 504 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,280 out of town and a 20 year old was sleeping on her couch, 505 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,760 breaking closely with her boyfriend? 506 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,520 18 months. And who failed to win over the 507 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,760 young and millennial voters in the 2016 campaign, resulting in 508 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,680 this orange man to take office for the first time. 509 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,160 You see where we're going with. This. 510 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,240 So yeah. Now, one of the main theories, 511 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,480 aside from infidelity is that Margaret read Fame Sick and that 512 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,960 prompted her to rethink her relationship with Jack. 513 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,960 I don't personally subscribe to that. 514 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,320 I do not think that this really had much to do with Lena 515 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,640 Dunham's book. I think what we talked about on 516 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,960 Thursday is probably more valid, which is that he didn't seem to 517 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,960 like treat her very well throughout the relationship. 518 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,960 Like from what we saw, obviously, we have actually no 519 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,400 idea. But like from what we thought 520 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,600 publicly, he didn't seem to be like a great partner to her. 521 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,920 And I feel like she's on such an ascension and she is like such a 522 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,040 freaking it girl now. And I mean, that's only just 523 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,600 going to like keep going for her now that I I feel like at some 524 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,240 point she was just done. That's my opinion anyways, guys, 525 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,080 that's it for mini scroll today. Thank you so much for listening. 526 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,200 I love you guys. Please remember to rate review 527 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,240 and subscribe. Please Spotify star rate US. 528 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,800 It helps us so much. It helps us grow. 529 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,760 And I will talk to you guys tomorrow. 530 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,200 Bye. Centennial World podcast network 531 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,080 operates on Gadigal land. We would like to acknowledge the 532 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the traditional custodians of this 533 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,880 land, and pay our respects to elders both past and present.