1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,400 Welcome to Touchgrass, a miniseries where I chat with. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,520 Creatives about. Staying sane while being 3 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:09,000 chronically online. I'm your host Lauren Meisner, 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,200 and Touchgrass is a miniseries brought to you by. 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,800 Britta, where we explore the. Implications of being 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,920 chronically online with the creatives who can't escape it. 7 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,160 One thing that keeps coming up in these conversations is how 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,400 important small grounding routines are offline. 9 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,320 And for me, one of those routines is drinking enough 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,240 water, whether I'm refilling. A water bottle. 11 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,280 For a long walk or taking a break scrolling my For You page, 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,520 Britta makes it easy for me to stay hydrated and grounded with 13 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,840 pure, fresh tasting filtered water straight from any tap. 14 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,480 Thank you to Britta for supporting independent media and 15 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:42,400 helping us. Take better care of ourselves. 16 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:46,240 One refill at a time. Today I'm chatting with Eugene 17 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,960 Healy, a global grand strategist, keynote speaker, and 18 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,680 online creator who grew his following from zero to 400,000 19 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,720 in under a year. Eugene and I chat about his 20 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,760 career journey from academia to marketing, the power of creating 21 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,120 opinion based content online, dealing with criticism, and my 22 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,320 favorite topic, Vanderpump Rules. 23 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,480 Welcome, Eugene to Touch Grass. Hello, thank you for having. 24 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,360 Me, I'm so excited to be chatting with you today. 25 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,480 I feel like we've been Internet friends for maybe like 6 months. 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:19,680 Yeah. And it's so nice to finally meet 27 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,040 in person. Yeah, it's nice to touch grass. 28 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:26,560 Yeah, no, we are fully outside, so if you hear any loud noises, 29 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,000 there's nothing we can do. It's ambiance. 30 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,160 Yeah, it's part of the experience. 31 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,960 Exactly. OK, so I start every episode by 32 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:36,600 asking most of our guests. Do you consider yourself 33 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,080 chronically online? Yes, yeah. 34 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,480 Unfortunately, the job necessitates that I'm basically 35 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,760 fully plugged into the matrix. Like when people ask me if I've 36 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,440 missed a trend, if I have, they're always like, really 37 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,520 unhappy. Like I don't know if a reporter 38 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,840 asked me for a quote about like, recession indicators. 39 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,680 So I just find that I basically always have to be plugged into 40 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,920 LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, sub stack. 41 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,639 Most legacy media is garbage and six months downstream of what's 42 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,720 happening Internet anyway days digital. 43 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,280 I actually read quite a lot. Yeah, they're good. 44 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,040 Yeah. So that's what I'm finding. 45 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,280 I'm finding basically that I have to spend a huge amount of 46 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,520 time collecting information about what's going on online so 47 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,040 I can develop a perspective on it, and that's kind of how my 48 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,560 content is scaffolded. Yes. 49 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,120 OK, so then how would you actually describe the style of 50 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,600 content that you make? My platform is really about 51 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,000 culture and society, analyzed through the lens of brand. 52 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,880 I think it's really driven through my ideology, which is 53 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,440 that, I mean, I'm a brand strategist by background, but I 54 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,280 think brands are pretty boring. Like I don't find brands 55 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,240 interesting. I find people interesting. 56 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,200 I find culture and I find society interesting, and I find 57 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,560 brands interesting in as much as they can tap into or channel the 58 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,600 things that society is missing. I think if you ever find a brand 59 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,280 that has any kind of meteoric success, it's not that they 60 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,680 created a culture, it's that they were able to effectively 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,360 tap into that particular cultural well, really well 62 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,480 through the lens of their brand. So the content I make is really 63 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,240 about, you know, why do we feel the way that we feel? 64 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,760 Why does something that might be trending in the algorithm 65 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,440 reflect a deeper cultural trend or a way that we feel about 66 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,400 something? And then how is society shifting 67 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,920 or culture shifting as a result? And then how do brands need to 68 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,200 adapt to be part of that culture and to be part of that 69 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,040 conversation? Tell me then, how you got to 70 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,160 where you are. Give me a little rundown on your 71 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,360 career. So I am just over 10 years now 72 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,840 into my career as basically both a strategist and a lecturer. 73 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,720 I started my brand strategy career about the same time that 74 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,360 I started my teaching career. So I was a tutor at the 75 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,400 University of Melbourne starting in 2015, then made my way up to 76 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,920 a sessional lecturing position. And then at the same time I was 77 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,320 also working at a brand strategy consultancy. 78 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,760 First as like an intern, literally like doing like the 79 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,600 coffee ordering like that, that job like the yeah, like girl in 80 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,720 the big city. And then working my way up to 81 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,880 senior strategist and eventually strategy director. 82 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,280 And now like, I guess like I, I hit a wall in both parts of my 83 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:28,480 career where if I wanted to go any further in my agency, I was 84 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,720 going to effectively the agency was going to have to grow. 85 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,840 And if I wanted to go any further in my teaching career, I 86 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,640 was going to have to do a PhD, which I had basically 0 interest 87 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,840 in. And so I decided that I was 88 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:42,040 going to start making content as a way of creating a portfolio of 89 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:43,760 my thinking. Because the strategy work that I 90 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,520 did was like corporate strategy was really like heavy duty 91 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,440 strategy was a lot of strategy that was like, how does this 92 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,200 business structurally make money? 93 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,360 And then how do they externalize that as a position? 94 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,760 So I kind of crossed over into management consultancy a little 95 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,920 bit. So I couldn't show any of my 96 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,120 work basically. So that was effectively, I 97 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,600 thought the content was going to be like a living portfolio of 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,680 thinking and that would maybe give me some leverage to think 99 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,320 about what I wanted to do next. And then it just ended up that 100 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,120 the content was so successful that I ended up being able to 101 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,680 build my own consultancy off it, a keynote speaking business. 102 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,760 And I'm building a course that's going to be releasing in the 103 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,760 next couple months as well about sort of the new fundamentals of 104 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,320 brand building. So yeah, it's all kind of, but 105 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,560 it's all scaffolded from organic content. 106 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,160 Like haven't spent a single cent on paid. 107 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,360 How are you managing both? Like do you have a strategy 108 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,320 behind this? Not at the beginning. 109 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,640 And that's why I came real close to burning out last year. 110 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,680 And I didn't learn about what burnout is. 111 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,400 I thought I was just something that happened to weak willed 112 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,240 people until a much stronger willed mentor of mine burnt out 113 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,520 and then said that it was a problem with your amygdala when 114 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,840 you have too many decisions to make and your body goes into 115 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:53,800 permanent fight or flight. And I was like that actually 116 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,440 that is currently happening to me. 117 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,440 So I now have a system in place. I have a, I have a content team 118 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,560 and I just turned down about 80% of strategy projects. 119 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,040 I think like now I'm at this point in my career where I can 120 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,400 pick and choose basically across keynote speaking, the content 121 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,040 that I make and the paid partnerships that I do. 122 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,600 And then also the strategy projects. 123 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,680 Basically like my whole business and my whole life has been 124 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,960 structured to never do anything that I don't want to do like 125 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,440 that. I think that was what I decided 126 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,320 I wanted this turn in my career to be That's. 127 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,160 The Dream. Yeah, exactly. 128 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,720 And so, like, I had to be diversified. 129 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,920 I have to be diversified across all of these different bits 130 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,160 because otherwise, eventually, if one thing takes over too 131 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,720 much, I'm going to have to start doing things that I, you don't 132 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:35,720 want to. Yeah. 133 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,880 That I prefer to say no to. I love saying no. 134 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,680 I really like saying. No, Oh my God, I need to get 135 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,760 better at saying. No, and I hate when people say 136 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,360 no to me so. I mean, fair enough. 137 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,160 Isn't that how it noises? OK, so I want to talk about your 138 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,120 content creation a little bit more because I want to know what 139 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,440 it feels like to be so famous. You don't really feel? 140 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,560 You don't really feel it. Do you feel famous? 141 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,760 No, but you are. You're you're a host of an 142 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,560 empire of an empire of a growing empire. 143 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,040 Thank you so much. That's so nice. 144 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,320 I mean, I'm sure this happens to you every once in a while. 145 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,680 When people come up to me in person, I'm like, that's crazy. 146 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,120 But that's what I mean, right? Like it doesn't the fame doesn't 147 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,840 feel like anything. What like 500,000 like 148 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,440 conceptually it's a big number, but you're never going to see 149 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,960 them all. You know I'm not playing Rod 150 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,400 Laver Arena, right? Like I think it only is really 151 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,840 felt when like, I don't know, last week I was in Berlin and I 152 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,680 was walking down the street and I just got off like a 24 hour 153 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,560 flight and then someone came up to me and was like, Hey, I 154 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,240 really like your content. Like how's it feel? 155 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,080 Honestly, being famous, particularly for this 95% good. 156 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,200 Like I, I kind of like it opens a bunch of doors for you. 157 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,840 And also people are exceptionally nice all the time. 158 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,960 Like it's not a bad thing for people coming up to you 159 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,400 basically once every couple of days and giving you a really 160 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,720 nice compliment. But what I will say, actually, 161 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,200 the 5% is when people are weird about approaching me, just say 162 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,080 hi. So the worst part of being 163 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,320 famous is when people throw you conspiratorial glances from 164 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,560 across the room. Like they just do a little like 165 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,160 that. And then maybe they whisper to 166 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,880 their friends and they don't just say hi. 167 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,240 It's much better for both of us. I guess because you are building 168 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,680 your platform off of being like smart, right? 169 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,560 So it's like a positive reinforcement for you, but it's 170 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,120 also a positive association for others. 171 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,080 Like you're helping them do their jobs better. 172 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,720 You're in like this very interesting niche. 173 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,880 Yeah, it's like I think the job is less about me being smart and 174 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,480 it's more about making other people feel smart. 175 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,039 I think that's what I learned from not only my strategy 176 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:43,720 career, but also my education career. 177 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,880 So like both of these things have kind of come together and 178 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,040 where I'm at now, strategy, brand strategy in particular, 179 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,320 it's not an output, it's just a plan of action effectively or 180 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,360 brand strategy specifically, which is brand is just the sum 181 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,400 total associations of an entity. So brand strategy is defining 182 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,240 what you want those associations to be. 183 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,160 And so the only way that you're going to make your brand 184 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,400 strategy effective is whether people in the organization 185 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,520 actually believe in it. And so you have to not only get 186 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,640 them to believe that you're smart, but that they're smart 187 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,440 for following the advice as well. 188 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,600 And so that I think is, is really the key. 189 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,360 And like what I, what I try to do for the content is combine, I 190 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,600 guess, the intellectual rigor that I learned in academia with 191 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,840 platform logic, which is this incredibly frenetic pace that we 192 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,320 have to like be on, on the Internet. 193 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,760 And so I still make my videos 2 minutes or less where possible, 194 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,120 unless you really earn it. I talk fast enough that people 195 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,160 won't watch me on two times speed. 196 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,800 That's like a really important principle, which means I have to 197 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,960 do like, a lot of tags. So a lot of people ask me if I 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,160 did the videos off the cuff. Absolutely fucking not. 199 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,080 Are you kidding me? And yeah. 200 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,960 And making sure that all of the stuff is really shareable, like 201 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,280 making sure it's an insight, like delivering an insight every 202 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,800 15 seconds. That's like a learning principle 203 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,960 that I have in my head. Or delivering a joke every 15 204 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,960 seconds to like, make the content feel fun to engage with 205 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,040 and make the content the kind of thing that you want to start a 206 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,520 conversation from. And how did you learn these 207 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,480 principles? Was it through your work, like 208 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,520 through your previous lives and career, or was it really just 209 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,000 like being tapped into culture and tapped into online? 210 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,000 I think at the end of the day, like what I'm selling is me. 211 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,120 It's my like as yes, there's a bunch of information sources 212 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,360 that I pull from the fundamental. 213 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,040 This is just like the way that I see the world. 214 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,600 It's influenced, yeah, by my career, but I would say also is 215 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,800 just influenced by my environment, the conversations 216 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,760 that I have with people that I mate increasingly now, the 217 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,040 conversations that I have on the road because I travel a lot for 218 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,600 work. But ultimately this is just like 219 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,560 the way that I see the world. And that's what makes the 220 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,200 content distinctive as a, it's my opinion, yes. 221 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,440 And no one, no one else is ever going to be able to have this 222 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,160 opinion. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you 223 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,480 about that. So I mean, we, we get this a 224 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,440 lot. We get a lot of pushback because 225 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,520 I truly believe for we us covering Internet culture, pop 226 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,200 culture, you know, opinion, opinion is part of reporting on 227 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,800 that. I believe commentary, all of 228 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,920 that requires, I mean, they're social disciplines, right? 229 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,800 And so people want to hear your opinion on that. 230 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,640 And sometimes we get pushed back from audience members or people 231 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,720 who come across our content. They say like, I just want to 232 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,040 hear the T between two creators or whatever. 233 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,280 Like I don't want to hear your opinion. 234 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,560 Stop inserting your bias. But I saw somewhere, I read 235 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:24,280 somewhere in an interview that you said what you think is 236 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,600 different about your content is that you do insert opinion. 237 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,720 Can you tell me about that? OK, media literacy one O 1. 238 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,880 There's no such thing as objective news. 239 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,920 Everybody has an agenda. In fact, I would say the problem 240 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,880 with a lot of legacy media is that it presents itself as 241 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,560 objective when clearly it has a quite significant bias, which is 242 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,160 more often than not to raise the status of elites, right? 243 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,880 Once you understand this, once you understand that under the 244 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,240 appearance of objectivity that everyone is trying to sell you 245 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,160 an agenda, you will realize that the Age of the City Morning 246 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,960 Herald is as partisan as the Herald Sun or the Telegraph. 247 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,000 Often it's actually worse, because it's pretending like 248 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,120 it's not. At least at least Murdoch papers 249 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,400 wear their shit on their sleeves, right? 250 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,800 Right. Yeah, yeah. 251 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,120 I mean, you know where they stand. 252 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,880 It's not a great stance, but you know. 253 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,840 Yeah. So I think like what? 254 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,800 OK, what do we have? Yes, there are, there are maybe 255 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,160 some outlets like Ground News, if you're familiar with Ground 256 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,240 News, which is an aggregator that places news reporting and 257 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,040 it shows how all of the different news sites to the left 258 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,480 and right are reporting on the news. 259 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,680 But even then, like they're making a decision on what they 260 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:26,760 consider to be leftist media versus what they consider to be 261 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,320 centrist or conservative media, right? 262 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,560 So the idea of objectivity in media is bullshit. 263 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:33,440 Like we can just let that one go. 264 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,840 And then I think, you know, also like reporting on things is a 265 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,280 commodity. Like why would anyone go to me 266 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,880 from my first of my job is not as a reporter, right? 267 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,200 Like my jobs as an analyst. And I would say like in an era 268 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,120 where effectively the median, which is to say, you know, 269 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,080 technology, AI is able to deliver composites of opinions, 270 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,760 the only thing that is really valuable is subjectivity. 271 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:58,840 Yeah. OK. 272 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,800 No, I like that a lot in our chat for our newsletter. 273 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,760 Well, in your chat with Annabelle, actually, technically 274 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,720 our newsletter hit follow, you admitted that managing, quote, 275 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,800 the dissociative effects of turning oneself into a brand has 276 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,120 been quite a learning curve for you. 277 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Can you talk to me about the mental health implications of 278 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,040 going viral, like starting this and going viral so quickly, and 279 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,800 what it feels like to commodify yourself? 280 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,680 I think it's interesting because in some way I think I'm just a 281 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:33,240 more significant dramatic version of something that I 282 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,240 really believe that we all feel, which is that we're all the 283 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,040 brand versions of ourselves. When I mean like to turn myself 284 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,120 in a brand into a brand, what I mean is like to start to look at 285 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,240 yourself as an entity and then to manage that entity from the 286 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,360 outside. So as I said before, if a brand 287 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,280 is the sum total associations of an entity, to brand something is 288 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,440 to engage in active management and manipulation of those 289 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,280 associations. That's dissociative by design. 290 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,440 And I think like we all face that and that like social media. 291 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,080 I've been trying to develop a thesis on this for a while, and 292 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,640 I'm coming closer and closer to it. 293 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,400 Increasingly, I'm starting to think of social as this kind of 294 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,680 it's like a God that we burst from our collective unconscious. 295 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:17,560 Like it explains why it took off so quickly. 296 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,960 Like the platform itself, by the way, the platform itself is just 297 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,880 a marketplace where we are able to complete the transaction of 298 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,000 the personal turning into the professional. 299 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,400 But we all have the camera inside our head. 300 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,680 I think like even this, like we talk about like Gen. 301 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:31,960 Z or Gen. Alpha, like that. 302 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,040 They're not posting as much, like they're certainly not 303 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,320 expressing themselves as much on social media, but that doesn't 304 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,520 mean that they don't face the invisible camera. 305 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,200 In fact, they face it more. That's why it's so constraining 306 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,400 on their self-expression, hence why they post less. 307 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,400 If anything, they view themselves like brands more than 308 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,320 anybody else. And so they're governed by the 309 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:59,600 rules of this God, if you like. And I feel like that's what I, I 310 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,080 experienced that very quickly. So I had to dissociate 311 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,000 relatively quickly and I had to put guardrails around it. 312 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,920 I think probably I was able to take advantage of it in that 313 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,840 when I was building out my own brand strategy, my personal 314 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,560 brand strategy, which I did emergently start to use the 315 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:20,240 comments, the nice ones anyway, as a way of understanding what 316 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,720 people think of you and how you want people to think of you. 317 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,080 So one of my brand codes now is intentional ambiguity. 318 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,920 And what I found is that people online couldn't figure out my 319 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,200 age, my sexuality, where I live, my ethnicity, anything. 320 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,120 And what that allows me to do is it allows me to wade into 321 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,880 complex topics like race or class, how they intersect 322 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,240 marketing and brand. And people can't dismiss the 323 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,560 argument based on what I look like because I can't figure out 324 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,760 what I actually am. So they have to engage with the 325 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,680 idea. That's so interesting. 326 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,600 So every now and then you face a situation where you can see this 327 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,960 stuff like that. Get ready to hear what in this 328 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,240 career, Get ready to hear exactly what people think of 329 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,240 you, but figure out how to turn it into your advantage. 330 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:10,320 OK. Yeah. 331 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,640 No, that's actually a great, it's a really interesting 332 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,680 strategy. I feel like it's actually quite 333 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,680 opposite to what a lot of creators do. 334 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,320 But I also recognize you're not trying to necessarily be, you 335 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,200 know, like a lifestyle creator. You're not trying to get an 336 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,280 audience to develop like a para social relationship with you. 337 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480 No, exactly. And I'm this other creator, Oren 338 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,520 John, who's, you know, even more famous than me. 339 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:32,720 I think he's got like a million followers. 340 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,840 We've chatted a bunch of times. He actually, I was watching his 341 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,040 green screen content in, you know, June 2024 and I was like, 342 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,520 oh, there's a market for this. And that's when I started 343 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,160 creating and he talks about how this the difference between 344 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,560 creator and influencer. An influencer is selling a is 345 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Kim Kardashian, right? Like selling a lifestyle that's 346 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,920 aspirational that you know, effectively, you know, to use 347 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,520 like the Marlboro Manor, like the Lacanian mirror stage thing, 348 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,960 like you see yourself in the mirrored in this influencer. 349 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,000 And so you buy on the basis of that mirroring the parasocial is 350 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,119 a huge part of that as well. A creator is someone that's more 351 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,720 based on selling their perspective and selling and you 352 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,319 know, and you may say thought leadership as well, and you're 353 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,079 on a spectrum to what extent you are one versus the other. 354 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,520 I'm basically like 100 zero creator to influencer. 355 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,680 Orrin's probably like 7030. It's really determined by like, 356 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,640 what's the relationship that you want to have with the audience 357 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,720 and on what basis? Like I like to keep my private 358 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,560 life private. So I find I find, you know, all 359 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,640 that stuff that I was talking about, the invisible camera, 360 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,720 like I find that really oppressive. 361 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,000 The idea of having to capture experiences. 362 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,320 I already disassociate enough without having to think about 363 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,840 how I'm going to capture things. And this job is already is 364 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,520 challenging. I don't have to take videos of 365 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,480 what it is that I'm seeing, but I have to think about that. 366 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,400 And then everything just becomes a content problem. 367 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,640 That's actually probably been the more difficult thing to deal 368 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:54,760 with. Is like everything becomes 369 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,800 content. Yeah, tell me about that. 370 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,080 When you make content about culture and society, where I 371 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000 live in society. So every time that you're out 372 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,760 there interacting with the world, you're finding pieces of 373 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:15,200 things to talk about. And the problem when you have an 374 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,200 algorithm that demands A ferocious amount of content 375 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,880 perspective from you is that, you know, you are actively 376 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:26,200 incentivized to continue to find nice new, like interesting 377 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,200 points of view on things. And so it's not as bad now. 378 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,600 But when I first got started, I was having situations where my 379 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,440 friends are being like, you know, we had a conversation two 380 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,080 weeks ago and now that's the video that's got 400,000 views. 381 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:38,440 I'm not sure how I feel about that. 382 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,640 Like, I think that's kind of a bad friend move. 383 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,200 And I think, yeah, that that's, there's something quite 384 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,920 chronically online about that experience is that I think like, 385 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,640 if you're not careful as as a person or as an influencer, real 386 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,440 life becomes the screen. And the screen becomes real 387 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,240 life, whether or not you're posting again, the camera is 388 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,440 internalized. Posting just makes it obvious 389 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,280 and external. But what you have is a situation 390 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,400 with the real life becomes subordinated to how you 391 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,720 document, categorize and talk about and reproduce that 392 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,400 experience online. So the online world becomes the 393 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,680 real world. And this just becomes something, 394 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,600 it becomes The Cave. This is what Baudrillard would 395 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,160 say he was like. Reality has become The Cave, 396 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,440 like. And and that that was a really, 397 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,600 really difficult thing for me to work through. 398 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,680 Like now fortunately, what I have as a team. 399 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,400 So now I have a system in place that's planned out six weeks in 400 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,680 advance, and so I'm not in a situation anymore where I'm 401 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,040 constantly having to create frenetically for the algorithm 402 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,640 we have, like planning that allows me to think freely and 403 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,080 make stuff when I want to make stuff. 404 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:44,000 Oh that's so good. Unfortunately we're not there 405 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,160 yet because we do record a daily podcast that requires us to be 406 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,800 in the moment. Although this will be pre. 407 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,240 Recorded if it's news, right? Yeah, exactly. 408 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,920 I know it's hard. OK, so I wanted to talk to you 409 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,160 about how you describe yourself as an observer participant in 410 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,680 culture. I feel like that ties in really 411 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,840 nicely to what you were just saying. 412 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,280 I'm in the game, you know like and I I think marketing is one 413 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,360 of the lamest professions of them all like below data analyst 414 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:13,240 I'm serious I'm. Why? 415 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,400 What do you mean by that? Expand. 416 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,840 We work near creativity, but we don't, we're not creatives, you 417 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,880 know, OK. And I think there's something 418 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,800 about the desire to be in proximity to something, but not 419 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,520 willing to take the leap. Like, you know, you can respect 420 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,840 creativity and all that. But like, I find so much 421 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,400 marketing is like, oh, that's a really cool piece of art. 422 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,640 How can I make money off it? And I think that like, for me 423 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,400 personally, like there's nothing uncooler than that. 424 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:47,760 And so I guess like what I try to do is figure out ways not 425 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,800 just to capture culture, but to participate in it as well and to 426 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,760 to like be an active some sometimes try and be an active 427 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,760 contributor to it. Funnily enough, I make a point 428 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,320 of never making content about the things that are really close 429 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,200 in my life, like subcultures, for instance, any subculture 430 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,200 that I'm a part of. I don't make any content about 431 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,440 that just because like I really want to keep that for me. 432 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,960 And I want to keep that subculture for itself as well, 433 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,400 rather than mining it for content. 434 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,280 But that I think, yeah, there's a, there's sort of like a a bit 435 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,880 of a gonzo element to it as well. 436 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,120 Like I'm still young enough, right, to participate in a lot 437 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:21,880 of like what's happening in culture. 438 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,160 And again, it goes to that, the subjective gaze as well. 439 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,680 Like, I don't want to report on it. 440 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,720 You know, I feel like a lot of youth reporting is really bad 441 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,160 because even people that are sympathetic to youth, they still 442 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,840 report on it. Like, you know, they're like 443 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,800 1800s colonial explorers, like bounding through the Amazon that 444 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,200 have just discovered like a pygmy tribe, you know, I'm. 445 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,640 Actually dead that analogy is. Crazy, you know, and they're 446 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,120 just then they they overlay effectively, you know, you 447 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,680 overlay this like in that instance, like western colonial 448 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,840 centric point of view on like the savage. 449 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,800 But we still do that. Like the amount of arguments 450 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,320 that I have to have with people about like Gen. 451 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,040 Z have a different work culture. What culture, what work culture 452 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,720 would you have if you faced the same economic, cultural, 453 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,840 political, economic context? Do you think that they came out 454 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,080 of the fucking womb this way? Totally. 455 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,920 Like they're influenced by the things that you created. 456 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,000 You made the society that they're an occupant of. 457 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,000 They're responding in a perfectly rational way. 458 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,480 Who set that system up? Yeah, no, 100%. 459 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,400 I actually am so similar to what you said that I just made me 460 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,520 reflect on myself. I'm so similar where I protect 461 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,920 my, the subcultures that I'm part of as well. 462 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,840 Like Bravo. I will never talk about Bravo. 463 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,280 When we get an opportunity to interview a Bravo star, of 464 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,160 course I'm going to take it because like, why would I not 465 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,160 want to meet one of my idols? But like I don't want to start a 466 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,560 podcast about housewives. Like, I don't want to cover that 467 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,240 because it's sacred to me. Someone was telling me about 468 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,640 Vanderpump Rules the other day. They were just, they were 469 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,400 explaining it to me and terms that I would understand. 470 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320 They were like, you've got to watch no season 2 through 5 and 471 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,520 then season. I don't watch a lot of 472 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,960 television. I don't watch a lot of reality 473 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,840 television outside Survivor. My God, come on Eugene. 474 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,640 Very pop rules. Survivor. 475 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240 It's a class I used to watch a lot of Come Dine With Me. 476 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,760 Oh my God, these are not real. Yeah, and then and then like, I 477 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,120 don't know, Australian dashcam car crash compilations. 478 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:23,280 Those are my big three. I'll watch The Departed in 79 479 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,640 YouTube Shorts clips out of order. 480 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,880 Not YouTube Shorts. Yeah, yeah. 481 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,080 But like, that's my, my media. That's fucking shocking. 482 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,280 I just find that there's a lot of really bad media right now 483 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,120 that does a lot of showing and telling, and I just don't have a 484 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,920 lot of, like, I don't have any patience for media that isn't 485 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,040 like, don't give me. I saw no other choice a couple 486 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,240 of weeks ago. That was fucking amazing. 487 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:49,480 What is that? I don't even know what. 488 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,000 That is by Park Chen Work, who directed Old Boy and the 489 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,720 Handmaiden. And just like South Korea's 490 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,160 other Otter, it's very difficult to explain what it is because it 491 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,120 crosses across so many different genres. 492 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,200 The basic premise is middle-aged man loses his job at a paper 493 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,720 factory, and in order to get another one, he decides that 494 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,040 he's going to murder all of the other candidates for the role. 495 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,040 Oh my God. He has no other choice. 496 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,960 It's the only way and it's genre bends between drama, some of the 497 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,720 like Korean, the way that these Korean directors structure the 498 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,000 comedy, the like the way that they pull on this tension of 499 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,760 like something is really the situation is really absurd and 500 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,560 that's what makes it funny. But also there's a lot of 501 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,240 jeopardy in the scene. And so there's you're holding 502 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,240 all of this tension in your body and you can't help but laugh to 503 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,600 get it out of you. I just honestly like, I think 504 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,040 it'll probably be my movie of the year. 505 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,920 Oh my God. OK, well, I feel like I need to 506 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,600 watch it now because you really just gave an amazing review. 507 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,960 A glowing review. Well, I'm going to give you a 508 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,680 glowing review of Vanderpump Rules, OK? 509 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,080 It's literally, I actually think as somebody who is very 510 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,160 interested in society and culture, it's like an 511 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,120 anthropological study. Like you have to freaking watch 512 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:04,320 it. I am not even joking. 513 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,600 It's like literally OK. Do you watch Jersey Shore? 514 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,040 Did you ever watch Jersey Shore? It's the same thing. 515 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,440 It is like they tapped into this incredibly niche subculture in 516 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,640 the US like this. It literally only exists in this 517 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,400 one tiny part of the country and they put it on display for us. 518 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,880 It's like that. And it's like servers in LA in 519 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,640 this very specific time frame before Instagram where like they 520 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,400 didn't even know what reality TV was and everything is authentic. 521 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:28,680 Oh my God, please, you have to watch. 522 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,280 Yeah, yeah. A portrait of America's 523 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,240 sickness. We love it. 524 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,600 I love it. OK before I let you go I need to 525 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,600 talk to you about 1. I feel like theme in your 526 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,160 content that is going viral at the specific moment because I 527 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,680 keep getting served all of your videos about it. 528 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,240 Post luxury status symbols. Tell me about that. 529 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,720 So a year ago I made this video where I was basically 530 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,360 identifying like why luxury is in so much trouble right now. 531 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:05,080 The basic premise is that luxury abandoned its status in market 532 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,920 for scale. So it used to have a ultimately 533 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,240 all brands have to have a source of truth and luxury used to be 534 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,320 based on craft like that craft and scarcity. 535 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,320 Those things are not synonymous with scale, with wanting to 536 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,800 scale up literally like, you know, you can't make craft goods 537 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,720 at up. To be honest, there's not enough 538 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,320 artisans to make that that product. 539 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,560 So they traded it for hype and effectively what they ended up 540 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,280 doing along with something that was not necessarily their fault, 541 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,880 which is this extraordinary proliferation of images that 542 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,200 gradually just began to flatten the entire world into 543 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,200 two-dimensional algorithmic wallpaper. 544 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,880 Physical visual items stopped becoming status symbols. 545 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,080 You can see we have even items that are themselves physically 546 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,520 scarce or culturally abundant. It's not hard to see a picture 547 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,600 of a Birkin anymore, you know, in the same way it's not hard to 548 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,120 see a picture of a Lamborghini. You know, like, in the same way 549 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,600 like we're completely overloaded with like open your phone. 550 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,200 You see like a perfect 10 on TikTok, and then you scroll 551 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,000 three more times and you see another perfect 10. 552 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,680 You're like that. That must just be the world. 553 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,120 So increasingly my thesis is that the status has moved into 554 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,200 more coded elements that are behavioral rather than just 555 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,520 visual. And so I've begun documenting 556 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,040 these six key post luxury status symbols. 557 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,600 And what was interesting was that I started the Series A year 558 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,000 ago. I made six videos and I've come 559 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,840 back to them this year. This time I've actually had the 560 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,640 time to write sub stacks about them. 561 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,480 So to give a little bit more depth and research to, you know, 562 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,320 what is necessarily a hot take when you're doing it on short 563 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,240 form. And so much of that stuff 564 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,160 actually became it's more true now than it was a year ago. 565 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,320 So I think like all of this conversation about going analog, 566 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,480 you know, was this time last year I was talking about 567 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,640 connected privacy. And now the analog conversation 568 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,760 has become like the defining conversation, if you like, of 569 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,600 like this part of the year, everyone deciding about going 570 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,840 analog, which I think is a little bit of like everyone is 571 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,360 framing it as like, hey, it's this great movement going 572 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:03,680 offline. I'm like, no, it's not. 573 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,560 It's a privilege. That's what makes it a status 574 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,480 symbol, as a status symbol because it's inaccessible to the 575 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,480 majority of the population. And So what we have here is a 576 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,960 situation where those who have the capital, financial, 577 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,680 cultural, social can retreat into private spaces away from 578 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,200 algorithmic detection. The rest of us, either we rely 579 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,080 on visibility. We rely on visibility for 580 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,760 influence in our careers. We rely on visibility for 581 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,440 influence in our fucking social lives. 582 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,520 We rely on visibility in our romantic lives. 583 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,920 Like we have to have, you know, we have to have a Hinge profile, 584 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,440 right? Yeah, Yeah. 585 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,680 Unless you have significant social capital, you need that, 586 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,560 that you can meet people in person. 587 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,960 I was just having a conversation with with Cliff at the Commons, 588 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,920 the founder of the Commons, who was telling me people at the 589 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Commons Health Club are coming there looking for love. 590 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:50,960 Oh my God. And of course they would, 591 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,040 because it makes sense. It's a bunch of people in the 592 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,960 same aspirational economic segment as them that also 593 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,600 happened to be disgustingly good looking. 594 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,040 Right. And really into fitness. 595 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,400 And really into fitness, of course. 596 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,320 So you've so, but that's the thing, right? 597 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,160 These people, it's pay to play. You have to pay, you pay to 598 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,960 access that. And so you're able to access 599 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,120 this offline community experience. 600 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,360 What we have is a situation where the third space, for the 601 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,120 most part, Australia is not that bad. 602 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,520 Like, you know, like we still have fed Square and, and we, you 603 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,240 know, we still have decent social infrastructure. 604 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,120 Go look around the world like third spaces have effectively 605 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,480 been destroyed and everything now is paid to play. 606 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,760 So I think what we have is a situation where going offline is 607 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,200 the status symbol that only some people can afford. 608 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,080 But it is a behavior. And I think what is interesting 609 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,480 is this analog, if you like, is the aesthetic layer that 610 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,120 underlies the behavior. So, so going analog, you can see 611 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,360 it the the aesthetics of analog are the CDs and touching grass 612 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,480 and this and like candle lit dinners. 613 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,360 But it's it's an aesthetic, right. 614 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,000 And I think there's that, that there's the irony, of course, of 615 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,720 like going offline performatively online. 616 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,680 But that, yeah, again, analog is just the aesthetic 617 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,920 representation of what the actual status symbol is, which 618 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,480 is to be able to evade the algorithm and the need for 619 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,680 visibility because you already have enough influence to be 620 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,200 invisible without missing out. So then what's your take on 621 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,520 creators who like Becca Bloom, who seemingly are so wealthy and 622 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,200 would have that standing in society, like trying to be 623 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,760 influencers? First off, like I think we can 624 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,720 all acknowledge that it's a fake it to make it. 625 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,880 She's clearly not as rich as she wants to be, which is in many 626 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,240 ways, it's like the most pathetic thing. 627 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,240 But like, that is. But that is America, right? 628 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,800 America is faggot. You make it. 629 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,440 It's making content about, hey, I'm a private chef for these 630 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,960 famous people, even though you're not. 631 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,200 And then becoming a private chef as a result of it. 632 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,480 Probably the, the most interesting thing for me with 633 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Becca Bloom was that she was really well respected in the 634 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,880 beginning because what we had was a caricature that we could 635 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,080 engage with in a fictitious manner, which is, Oh my God, 636 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,560 like, yeah, this person. Yeah. 637 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,560 Rich people who are rich. Right, Right. 638 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,920 And so there was something about, like us engaging with 639 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,160 this avatar of desire, this person that's performing for us 640 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,400 and consuming it as a performance. 641 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,760 Now, of course, she's facing all of this criticism. 642 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,800 And I think the interesting thing, the criticism is because 643 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,680 people have realized that this is an actual person. 644 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,560 And not only that, but that all of this supposed wealth has not 645 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:20,120 freed her from the algorithmic grasp, the need to constantly 646 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,840 perform for this audience, visible or invisible. 647 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,800 And so now we approach her with not only the sense of disgust, 648 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,200 but the sense of pity. Right. 649 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,600 And as soon as someone becomes pitiable online, they become a 650 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,040 target for ridicule. Yeah, 100%. 651 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,320 Like, that's, I think, the sort of the interesting thing about 652 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,520 where she's at. Like Nara, Smith doesn't face 653 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,920 that same level of criticism because she looks fucking dialed 654 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,560 in. Yeah. 655 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,320 OK. Well, the last question that I 656 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,160 have for you today is how do you touch grass? 657 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,520 I really like going for walks around my neighborhood, like 658 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:54,280 long walks where I'll do 1 in the morning, one after lunch and 659 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,600 then one after dinner. And I go around the neighborhood 660 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,840 and I have like a bunch of favorite gardens that I like to 661 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,000 look at. Usually. 662 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,080 I find like nature can be a little bit grotesque to be 663 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,280 honest with you. I'm a city boy by heart, but 664 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,040 there's something about watching like birds and insects sort of 665 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,640 fussing around and like a really well kept garden that I really 666 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,920 love. I read a lot of fantasies, so 667 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,920 Ursula Guinn is my favorite author. 668 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,120 And I ride my bike. I try to commute everywhere by 669 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640 bike. Like, you know, I really wish 670 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,200 there was this study that came out that found that Australian 671 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,760 motorists actually think of cyclists as less than human. 672 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,240 What they, they, they tested this thing where they actually 673 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,120 found that they look at them as slightly subhuman. 674 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,720 They're not quite human. There's a literal dehumanization 675 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,920 going on. Oh my God, I wish more people 676 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,760 would give it a go. It's like an amazing, like I'm 677 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,200 not talking about the ideological thing. 678 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,800 Like putting all of that stuff aside, environment, etcetera. 679 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,640 It's an amazing way of getting around. 680 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,720 It's so liberating to make your way through traffic, to ride, to 681 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,400 feel this constant sense of movement and you're moving fast 682 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,440 as well and you can go so far, and particularly in a city like 683 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,480 Melbourne and the inner suburbs, we've got shit load of bike 684 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,440 lanes. I find it's just like the 685 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,440 perfect way of me either entering my compression zone for 686 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,480 work or decompressing after work and like filtering out all of 687 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:16,960 the processing and stuff as well. 688 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,960 And you know, having a couple brushes with death like every 689 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,400 month and like, you know, getting into throw like the 690 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,320 cycle's attitude. Like I never use the word 691 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,760 fuckwit, but when I'm on a bike you call a lot of people 692 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,080 fuckwit. Oh my God. 693 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,800 Thank you so much for joining me. 694 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,440 Thank you for having me. Centennial world podcast network 695 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,280 operates on gadigal land we would like to acknowledge the 696 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,520 gadigal of the eora nation, the traditional custodians of this 697 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,000 land and pay our. Respects to elders both. 698 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,080 Past and present.