1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 Welcome to Touchgrass, a miniseries where I chat with 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,120 creatives about staying sane while being chronically online. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,000 I'm your host, Lauren Meisner, and Touchgrass is a miniseries 4 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:14,440 brought to you by Britta, where we explore the implications of 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,440 being chronically online with the creatives who can't escape 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,560 it. One thing that keeps coming up 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,920 in these conversations is how important small grounding 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,400 routines are offline. And for me, one of those 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,440 routines is drinking enough water. 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Whether I'm refilling my water bottle for a long walk or taking 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,400 a break from scrolling my For You page, Britta makes it easy 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,520 for me to stay hydrated and grounded with pure, fresh 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,840 tasting filtered water straight from any tap. 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,240 Thank you to Britta for supporting independent media and 15 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,760 helping us take better care of ourselves one refill at a time. 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,360 Today I'm chatting with journalist, mental health 17 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,600 advocate and self-described terminally online expert, Kriti 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,840 Gupta. As fellow media girlies, Kriti 19 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,400 and I have known each other for years. 20 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,600 Throughout our conversation, she takes me through her career 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,720 journey, how she handles tall poppy syndrome, as a woman of 22 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,320 color in a visible industry, and of course, her tips for touching 23 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,080 grass. Oh my God, we're literally 24 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,760 touching grass and I'm so happy that we got to do that. 25 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,760 I know we brought for anyone that listens and doesn't watch. 26 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,120 We brought our podcast chairs outside so we are fully in the 27 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,760 park near our office and honestly the vibes are pretty 28 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:24,600 good. OK, well I'm so excited to chat 29 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,480 with you today about being chronically online, what you do 30 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,960 for work, and how you stay mentally healthy. 31 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,200 See amongst it all. So first, you are chronically 32 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,920 online. Oh, by default, since the day I 33 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,600 was born. I'm pretty sure I came out with 34 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,280 a BlackBerry before a BlackBerry was invented. 35 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,360 So how would you describe being chronically online? 36 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,360 Like what does it mean to you? I think what it means to me is, 37 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,760 and I referenced this in another interview recently, but have you 38 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,640 seen the town cry a meme in the TikTok comments section? 39 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,600 Yes, that is us like giving. Everyone the tea? 40 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,560 Yeah, Giving. Everyone the tea and when people 41 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,880 say Oh well that's just such a new phenomenon. 42 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,600 No, they had town criers back in the 1600s. 43 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,039 We are just the 21st century version of a town crier. 44 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,320 That's an insane analogy. I love it but I think. 45 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,240 It's true. I think it's a very positive way 46 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:19,400 to look at something that a lot of parts of society still find a 47 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,320 way to kind of demonize us for it. 48 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,880 And it's often women, let's be for sure. 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,320 So for real here, I like to look at the positives, like, we 50 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,600 became friends. Yeah, on the Internet. 51 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,880 We became friends on the Internet, everyone who was 52 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,040 watching us. Became friends with us. 53 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Or socially on the Internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 54 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,960 Some of the best relationships and the best opportunities that 55 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,120 I've had in my life have come from being terminally online. 56 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,160 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. OK, So your job you are like, as 57 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,160 Australians would say, a slashy. A slashy which is such a funny. 58 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:51,920 Word. I know. 59 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,080 It's the first time I ever heard. 60 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,880 It was a few years ago, like from an Aussie. 61 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,080 And I was like, what does that mean? 62 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,760 But for anyone that's not Australian, that just means 63 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,480 somebody who wears many hats, freelances, consults, that kind 64 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,040 of stuff, slash, slash, slash. I did see somewhere else that in 65 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,640 2025 you said you felt like that was the year where everything 66 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:09,880 for your career came together. So can you speak to us a little 67 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,440 bit about your? Career, yeah, absolutely 68 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,160 everyone likes to be like, oh, overnight success story. 69 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,720 And I think if you look at the last like 2 years, it'd be like, 70 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,600 oh pretty came out of nowhere or something like that in the 71 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,520 industry. But I started working in media 72 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:27,800 as a 16 year old who would run Facebook pages for charities. 73 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,800 So that was to get them to like Book Fest and the Rockhampton 74 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,320 Showground stalls that they would have when I was 14. 75 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,160 And they would raise money to then put it back into the 76 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,680 community. My father used to work with the 77 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,800 Rotary Clubs and the like. And he saw me spending all of my 78 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,240 time on the Internet till three, 4:00 in the morning. 79 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,000 So he said, hey, if you manage our Facebook page, I will give 80 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,080 you some money. Oh, my God. 81 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,600 And that was my first media job, before media Facebook jobs were 82 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:57,280 even a thing. Yeah. 83 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,040 Wow. Then I would say my first big 84 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,400 girl job with big pants and a lanyard with a little media tag. 85 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,280 What was the Commonwealth Games in 2018? 86 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,720 Working in the Athletes Village for the newspaper with Fairfax 87 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,600 that they did at the time there. Then I started working in AD 88 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,000 agencies and I worked at magazines and beauty startups 89 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,839 and all the likes. Then I went off on my own three 90 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,080 years ago and haven't looked back. 91 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,640 How do you find freelancing? Is it challenging on your mental 92 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,760 health? The instability or do you prefer 93 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,120 it? I feel now I finally, as you 94 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,440 mentioned what I wrote about at the end of last year, I'm in 95 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,240 this position where I feel like I understand the trials and 96 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,440 tribulations of being a freelancer a lot better than I 97 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,480 did a few years ago. I was speaking to another 98 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,120 industry peer about this and it is January rolls around every 99 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,080 year and every January you're like, I'm never going to get 100 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:51,920 work. Again, yes. 101 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,720 There's, there's no money. Everything's going to the 102 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,840 toilet. I'm I'm going to have to go back 103 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:02,680 to a corporate job and then you. You figure it out. 104 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,400 You. Figure it out. 105 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,520 You drink some cement and you're like, you know what? 106 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,480 This happened last year, It happened the year before. 107 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,920 And it always works itself out. You know what you have to do. 108 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,520 And but the psychology is, you know, this is the cycle of 109 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,840 working for yourself. Yeah, I post on LinkedIn so 110 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:22,400 much. I post on LinkedIn so much. 111 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,720 I love it. And then I also post on 112 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,560 Instagram a lot and I post on TikTok a lot. 113 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,560 And I've never really had to do the whole I've, I've done 114 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,720 pitching a few times when I first started. 115 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,080 But in terms of putting ads for turning myself into a business, 116 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,640 which I know, you know, if you run like a copywriting business 117 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,800 or even if you run like a social media agency as a one man show, 118 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,040 you do often have to do that. And that is a big part of the 119 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,800 job in that sense. You're just shamelessly out 120 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,200 there. I'm just shamelessly out there 121 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,600 and I'm talking about the the stuff that other people are also 122 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,960 interested in because I know that the people that I want to 123 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,200 work with are probably going to be people that are in the same 124 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,480 kind of headspace as I am. I am, so that's always helpful. 125 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,320 Do you feel held back at all by tall poppy syndrome or does that 126 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,280 affect you at all? So for anyone that doesn't know 127 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:12,120 what that is, it is I suppose a quote UN quote syndrome, I think 128 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:18,560 a specific to Australia, where in a field of poppies, the 129 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,800 tallest one gets cut down so that they all stay the same 130 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,880 because promoting yourself so much, how do you feel tall poppy 131 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,640 syndrome has impacted that? With tall poppy syndrome, 132 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,200 there's a a whole nother level to it as a woman of color as 133 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,840 well. In this country, you can only 134 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:36,920 say or do so much easily as long as it keeps the status quo. 135 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,200 It was the 20th anniversary of High School Musical. 136 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,400 And the one song that still sticks in my head is Stick to 137 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,720 the Status Quo because I think that that is such an accurate 138 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,800 representation of how especially this industry, because a lot of 139 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,600 us are so online and so. And you do have to put yourself 140 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,920 out there so much more than I guess you would say, my brother 141 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,360 who works in finance. Yeah, yeah. 142 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,640 It it it definitely gets to this place of people will support you 143 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,240 as long as you stay just below them. 144 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Yes. A. 100% I had an experience. 145 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,240 Obviously I cannot relate to the woman of color experience in 146 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,880 this industry, but I was posting so much more on LinkedIn in 147 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,840 2024, beginning of 2025. You know, when I took the 148 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,480 business over myself. One of my close friends in the 149 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,160 industry told me months after it happened that a man in the 150 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,480 industry screenshot of one of my LinkedIn posts and put it on 151 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,280 Twitter and was like making fun of me. 152 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,440 And she privately messaged him and said what the fuck is wrong 153 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,640 with you? Like she's trying to run an 154 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,440 indie media branch. She needs to promote her 155 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,600 business. And he actually, like, listened 156 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,560 and took it down. But I really hadn't experienced, 157 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,400 I suppose, tall poppy syndrome first hand that I knew of. 158 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,640 Yeah. Like having that direct 159 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,880 judgement, somebody screenshotting my post and 160 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,480 putting on Twitter to make fun of me is wild. 161 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,440 It is wild and but the worst part is you mentioned the that 162 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,000 you know of. Yes, right. 163 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,480 The way that I always see it is the people who will have your 164 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,200 back and the people that you should rely on are the ones who 165 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,400 are going to recommend you when you're not even in the room or 166 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,600 anywhere near the room. The ones who are like, oh, she's 167 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:09,960 not here, but she should be here. 168 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,400 Yeah. And those are the people that 169 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:12,560 you can count on at the end of the day. 170 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,040 Because the others, they'll say one thing to your face and one 171 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,080 thing behind your back and that that high school mentality, 172 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,760 unfortunately, no matter where you are, I don't think that goes 173 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,360 away. I can honestly admit to the fact 174 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,560 that I've definitely messed up in the past and done that. 175 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,920 And my biggest goal for this year is to be better in that 176 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,280 space as well. Yeah, of course. 177 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,280 Like it's so easy to fall into that trap, especially because 178 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,880 there's always an element of competition amongst your peers 179 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,200 for different jobs, for budgets, all that kind of stuff. 180 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,559 Exactly. Yeah, it's a tough industry, 181 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,640 that's for sure. OK, So you have mentioned in the 182 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,280 past to me privately and so now I'm going to air it out 183 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,720 publicly. Don't worry. 184 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:49,960 She had these questions in advance. 185 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,800 Okay, That's not me being like, so savage. 186 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,720 She's a good journalist of. That yeah, I'm ethical. 187 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,160 That you never want to go back to a nine to five. 188 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,360 Can you tell me about that? You. 189 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,080 Can't work in media and be expected to work 9:00 to 5:00 190 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,920 because even when I was in a nine to five role, I was not 191 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,280 working 9:00 to 5:00 as a social media and digital editor. 192 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,840 So paying someone a nine to five salary and then having the 193 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,200 expectations of them being 24/7. And this is not me just saying 194 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,560 this around social media or media roles. 195 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:26,960 This is a LinkedIn post that's come up multiple times over the 196 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,560 last few years. I don't think it's realistic to 197 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,840 expect someone who works in this field and expect them to be 9 to 198 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,880 5, but then expect them to be chronically online enough to 199 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,720 jump onto things for your brand but then also pay them that 200 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,240 salary. Yeah, OK. 201 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,240 That's fair enough. And I think the hard thing with 202 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,360 media, which I think it happens in a lot of careers, is that it 203 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,600 becomes so much part of your identity. 204 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,000 You can't switch it off. You can't, You can't, and the 205 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,960 only times I ever switch off is when I'm forced myself to go to 206 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,240 a place with no Internet connection. 207 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,160 Oh. My God, really? 208 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,280 Yeah. I was going to ask you. 209 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,800 OK, so tell me about how you stay mentally healthy while 210 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,680 being chronically online, especially as a freelancer. 211 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,080 I imagine you're constantly, I mean, we're the same, but like, 212 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,840 you know, I imagine you are constantly jumping on trends, 213 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,960 having to create that content yourself, having to pitch 214 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,480 yourself. OK, I found this trend. 215 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:13,760 Like, you know, can I write about it? 216 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:14,960 Can I cover it for you? Yeah. 217 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,400 How do you stay well? As you know, I travel a lot. 218 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Yeah. And 90% of my travel is work 219 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,160 related, but that 10% that isn't. 220 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,640 I make sure that I'm in a town that has 0 Internet signal. 221 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Oh my God. The only way that my friends and 222 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,760 I have the Christmas break, we're able to stay in touch 223 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,880 while we were travelling together as a group is old 224 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,120 school. We were like 5:00 PM. 225 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,000 We're meeting at this spot in front of the Nets on the beach. 226 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,680 If we lose each other throughout the day, so be it. 227 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,200 You have to like go to a restaurant and ask them for 228 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,040 Wi-Fi. The best thing was I didn't even 229 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,400 know what I was missing until I got back online like a week 230 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,440 later. And to be fair, I missed a lot, 231 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,120 but it wasn't the end of the world. 232 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,840 Does yeah, does that? I was gonna say, Does that give 233 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,520 you anxiety? It used to, yeah. 234 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,960 There was this one flight that I went on last year. 235 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,720 It was from New Zealand back to Australia. 236 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,440 When I was getting on the plane everything was fine. 237 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,600 By the time I got off the plane 3 hours later, TikTok had gone 238 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,840 down. Oh my God it's giving drama. 239 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,520 Get in tik. T.O.K had gone down and I was 240 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:19,560 like, my phone was just pinging as I turned it on, and I was so 241 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:22,960 anxious to catch a flight for weeks afterwards. 242 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,960 Yeah. And I went on 50 something 243 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,520 flights last year. So I was just sitting with this 244 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,680 like, bundle of anxiety. And then I only started booking 245 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,000 flights with Wi-Fi because I was so scared. 246 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,520 Oh my God. And then I was like, that's not 247 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:34,360 OK. Yeah. 248 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:38,080 And you're like, it's, it's not like the ER, like we're not 249 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:38,800 saving lives. We're. 250 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Not saving lives. So there was this period of time 251 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,920 last year where I was at the complete opposite end of the 252 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,400 spectrum to where I am now, where I was anxious about being 253 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,080 on a plane. I was anxious driving through 254 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,520 certain parts of Sydney where the signal drops out for 15 255 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,040 minutes. Yeah. 256 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,800 And that took a lot of hard work with myself to work that out. 257 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,040 Yeah, I was gonna say, how did you get to that point? 258 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,760 A few things. There was a bit of a 259 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,560 relationship breakdown, there was a work relationship 260 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,800 breakdown, a friendship break. There was a few different things 261 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,520 that kind of happened and I had to really take a hard look at 262 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,320 what was important. Yeah. 263 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,560 Honestly, that's fair enough. And the thing was, OK, I can 264 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:22,240 miss 3 hours of work and I'm not going to lose my entire life's 265 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:23,840 work. Yeah, when you have breakdowns 266 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,800 like that, you realize, oh, how easily this can be taken from 267 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,080 you, how easily this can be. Taken. 268 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Who fucking cares? Exactly. 269 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,920 And it was when things were taken that were really important 270 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,920 to me that I realized, OK, there needs to be a much, much, much 271 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,840 healthier level of handling this because otherwise, what? 272 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,000 I'm turning 30 soon. I love my job. 273 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,320 I love this career. I think in order to be 274 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,320 successful in this field, you really do have to love it. 275 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,480 Yeah. And if I no longer love it, then 276 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,920 I'm not gonna be able to do it. Yeah. 277 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,040 And it was getting to that point that if I didn't change those 278 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,320 things, I wasn't gonna love it anymore. 279 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Yeah, fair enough. The reason why I said you being 280 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,480 on the plane and then opening your phone to no TikTok was late 281 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,320 Dramageddon because you guys remember the first Dramageddon, 282 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,200 That's how it happened. They were all in a brand trip on 283 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,400 the way back from the brand trip and they opened their phones, or 284 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,400 maybe it was right before they got on the flight and the 285 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,560 cancellation started. So I'm interested actually on 286 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,880 that note, we're pivoting a bit, but it's still related. 287 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,640 As somebody who's chronically online, that obviously keeps up 288 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,160 with pop culture, Internet culture, and you cover that a 289 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,480 lot for your job as well. How do you feel about cancel 290 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,360 culture? I don't think cancel culture 291 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,520 exists like it did in 2016, Firstly, because I work a lot in 292 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,840 the advocacy space and the politics space as well. 293 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,760 And there's a different level of, I guess, cancellation that 294 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,880 people look at towards things or how you're expected to be the 295 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,160 perfect advocate. And the, the biggest thing that 296 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,200 I truly believe in when it comes to advocacy is like, there is no 297 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,560 such thing as a perfect advocate. 298 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,840 And if your entire goal is to always be liked by people in the 299 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,320 policy and advocacy space, well, then you are doing it for 300 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,480 narcissistic reasons. And then that goes into the 301 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,680 whole tent pole of 99% of people who work in this industry. 302 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,440 You are a little bit narcissistic. 303 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,320 You have to be if you're going to put your face on the Internet 304 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,360 on camera every single day. Yeah, totally. 305 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,720 You have to be. And you also have to acknowledge 306 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,080 and accept that, yeah, your flaws are your flaws. 307 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,160 And if you kind of like become comfortable with them and learn 308 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,000 how to work with them better, that is how you actually become 309 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,160 a better human being. I really like what you said 310 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,400 about, you know, you're doing it for narcissistic reasons because 311 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 it's so hard when you start putting yourself out there when 312 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,080 you realize that not everyone's going to like you. 313 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,880 And it's such a challenge to get over that hurdle. 314 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,280 And I really struggled with it when our YouTube channel started 315 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,120 to get a lot more views than it previously did. 316 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,760 And like, I had a YouTube channel before Centennial, but 317 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,760 it was so different because it was my lifestyle. 318 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,200 Like I was vlogging about my experience moving to Australia 319 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,280 and I was 24 and whatever. And it just, you know, now I'm 320 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,600 talking about controversial topics, I'm talking about pop 321 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,560 culture, I'm talking about creators that a lot of people 322 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,000 don't like. And it's such a different 323 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,120 experience when people come for you, for your opinion. 324 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,120 But I I'm going to keep that in my mind that I'm being 325 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,120 narcissistic when I see comments that hurt my feelings. 326 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,160 But but the other thing is, and the thing that you said about 327 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,200 like your lifestyle vlogs versus the stuff now, now you are 328 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,360 talking about things or working in topics where people think 329 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,280 there is a right and a wrong side from the like without 330 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,920 actually delving into it. They'll see a few words and 331 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,720 they'll be like there's immediately this side and 332 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,320 there's that side and my side is the right side. 333 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,440 No matter what anyone says, my side is the right side. 334 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,600 And that does. I mean that people aren't going 335 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,120 to like you, Lord. No, that's for sure. 336 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,160 That's for sure. Girl. 337 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,720 Like lots of people don't like me now. 338 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,720 I didn't. Come to realize that no 100% 339 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,760 somebody on Reddit the other day called me the most annoying 340 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,280 podcast hosting the entire world. 341 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,080 We did talk about this. OK, I'm sorry. 342 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,520 In the world of Joe Rogan. 'S in the. 343 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,000 World of Logan Paul. Man the world. 344 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:02,280 Is. Crazy. 345 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Out of all of the white men, you're actually the most 346 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,240 annoying. I know I love it. 347 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,920 OK, so as you mentioned, mental health and advocacy has been a 348 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,960 through line in your career. You recently launched in my head 349 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,840 Co yes. Tell us about that. 350 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,200 So basically you mentioned yeah, yourself, I've been working in 351 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,400 kind of like the politics and advocacy space, obviously used 352 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,920 to run Facebook pages for charity groups as a teenager. 353 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,080 And then that's kind of carried through with a lot of projects 354 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,600 that I've done over the last few years. 355 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,560 One of the things that I noticed working on both the media and I 356 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,280 guess the mental health and the advocacy side of things is a few 357 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,440 years ago when you would read an article or, and even now still 358 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,960 you read an article about depression or suicide or any one 359 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,360 of those really difficult subject matters, you get 4 or 360 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,000 five help lines at the end of the article, right? 361 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,760 And that's pretty much, it's not like enacted policy, but it's 362 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,920 like the media industry, like guidelines and standards. 363 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,960 Now, when you read an article, say about the cost of living, 364 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:09,079 Lauren, or about the war in Iran or about the Bush fires in 365 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,880 Victoria in the last week, you will read it. 366 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,160 And you will also have a mental health impact from reading that 367 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,240 piece. And there's also this feeling 368 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,480 that you get of like, OK, well, I can't do anything. 369 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,920 Helplessness. There's a lot of helplessness. 370 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,720 So my vision and what I'm trying to work through with media and 371 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,680 policy and advocacy stuff and been engaging with a whole bunch 372 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,720 of people and Michael Lord, policy change in this country is 373 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,760 hard, guys, let me tell. You that so you're like, 374 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,960 actually, what are you doing? Tell me. 375 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:37,200 Tell. Me. 376 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,280 So basically at the moment, it's a lot of like think tanks and 377 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,240 working with people to get it in front of the right room. 378 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,920 OK. Because it's very early days and 379 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,560 a lot of funding and grant applications. 380 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:47,600 Yeah. Fun stuff. 381 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,200 Yeah. Anyone who's doing those 382 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,560 rejection therapy challenges, start a business. 383 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,320 That's the best way to experience rejection therapy. 384 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,680 But basically whenever we, the goal is that whenever you see an 385 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,120 article or read an article on any publisher, website, 386 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:08,760 magazine, that if it is about any of these issues, that there 387 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,200 is then helpline. Well, resources and helplines 388 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,960 for you to help the issue at hand, but also yourself. 389 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,240 So one of our first pieces was around the South Australia algal 390 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,120 blur. Oh yeah. 391 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,200 Because it was a bunch of Reddit threads that I saw. 392 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,520 And God, I love Reddit sometimes. 393 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,280 I know we hate Reddit, but I also love Reddit. 394 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,120 No, I'm like addicted to it. I've never commented on Reddit 395 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:30,080 but I am addicted. To oh, my comment history is 396 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,840 probably horrendous, but it was a lot of people being like, I 397 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,840 know that South Australian coastline is bad, but what can I 398 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,080 do? And literally the easiest thing 399 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,440 for every single person to do was to go out and buy fish from 400 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,600 SA around Christmas time. Yeah, OK, that was it. 401 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,680 That was the take away. That was like, hey guys, go do 402 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:49,600 this. Do this, yeah. 403 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:51,440 And it's I love that. And The thing is. 404 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,880 It gives people actionable. Actionable things. 405 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,120 We consume more media and news now than ever, but we feel more 406 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,840 helpless about it. So as you're consuming it, here 407 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,920 is a small little actionable thing that you can do for the 408 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,400 issue and for yourself. So are you guys going to become 409 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,520 a charity? Are you going to be a business? 410 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,000 It's currently just as a business we want to have a 411 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000 charity on because we want to be able to make sure that the 412 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,520 things that you can do also help other people and work through it 413 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,560 that way. The goal is that it does do all 414 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,480 of that for the industry as well, but at the moment all of 415 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,680 our stories have that as the through line and whatever you 416 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,200 read that there's something that you can do. 417 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,760 So even if we're helping our small audience, yeah, that's all 418 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:31,840 we care about at the end of the day. 419 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,200 You should raise money. I'm trying. 420 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,160 Oh, you are. I was gonna say like this 421 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,200 elevator pitch, like I would invest if I had money to invest. 422 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,240 I got my first grant application rejection this morning, so I was 423 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,960 like. It's OK, it happens. 424 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,040 Lots more rejection to come, but you only need one yes. 425 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,880 You only need one. Yes, that's the thing about 426 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,960 sales and grants and all of that. 427 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,800 I mean, sometimes you need more, but you know, in general you 428 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,920 just need your first. One, you need your first one and 429 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,000 then you're like, oh, this has legs. 430 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Yes. And then you're like, OK, people 431 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,840 believe in me. Oh my God, no. 432 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,240 I love that. Thank you. 433 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,760 So I wanted to pivot back to you speaking about being a woman of 434 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840 color, being so public. Can you speak to me about your 435 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,280 experience? First of all, having to be 436 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:13,840 chronically online. I know you enjoy being 437 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,360 chronically online, but having to be chronically online as well 438 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,240 for your job and putting your face out there, what is that 439 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,280 experience like? The biggest thing as a woman of 440 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,440 color on the Internet is that you will always have to work 10 441 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,320 times harder. Or in any industry actually, you 442 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,200 always have to work 10 times harder. 443 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:39,360 But it's, it's very clear when you see say like all white 444 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,280 female line UPS on a panel or at festivals or events, or 445 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,480 especially with like International Women's Day coming 446 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,480 up so soon. And you love all of these people 447 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,440 that you work with, but you know that they were approached versus 448 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,040 you having to put yourself forward. 449 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,400 And I think that is ultimately at the end of the day, the key 450 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,000 big difference is I have to bang on the door and be like, Hey, 451 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,120 please let me in. And my friends who I love 452 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:07,360 dearly, it is 100 times easier for them because they don't have 453 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:08,440 to be pounding on the door as hard. 454 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,520 I wanted to share an anecdote. You don't have to comment on it 455 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,720 if you don't feel comfortable, but I thought it would be useful 456 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,600 for our listeners to hear this. One of my closest friends runs 457 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,360 an independent media brand as well, and she's a woman of color 458 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:24,440 and her team have historically all been women of color. 459 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,600 And, you know, she went through an experience where after about 460 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,440 a year of them having their faces on their TikTok account, 461 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,480 there was so much racism and discrimination that she actually 462 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,600 had to make the executive decision editorially that they 463 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,480 do not put their faces on TikTok anymore for the safety of 464 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,520 herself, but also her team. I remember her talking about 465 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,800 this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 466 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,880 I have thought about that many a time, especially during the rise 467 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,240 of there was that whole like MLM multi level marketing stuff 468 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,520 around like faceless accounts. And I was like, what if I just 469 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,880 turn myself? Oh my gosh. 470 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,600 I feel like there's actually a lot of faceless accounts that do 471 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,120 really well, but I mean the problem is you shouldn't have to 472 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:04,880 be fucking faceless. Shouldn't have to be faceless. 473 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,280 And that was the thing. I shouldn't have to be faceless. 474 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,400 Ultimately, at the end of the day, the aesthetic of being 475 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,640 white will always trump whatever we have. 476 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,640 And yes, with what happened with with our friend there, I think 477 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,920 about that a lot quite often, especially when I get racist 478 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,840 comments just, you know, especially policy advocacy type 479 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,440 of work. It's a lot of go back to your 480 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,840 own country. I think a lot of it is knowing 481 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,000 that I have people in the industry that I can just be 482 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,280 like, hey, did you see my comment section? 483 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,960 Yeah, I just need to talk. And I think we've had similarly 484 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200 on the other hand, so it's. Like the validation? 485 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,520 The validation. Yeah, absolutely. 486 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,520 Because knowing that you're not the only one who's going through 487 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,120 this and that ultimately, as human beings is what we want the 488 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,000 most. Yeah. 489 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,640 Is that acknowledgement and understanding of being like, I 490 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,440 see you. I hear, like, I see what you're 491 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:58,720 going through. I hear what you're going through 492 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,320 like I'm here for. You. 493 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,360 Yeah. So I wanted to pivot, yeah, to 494 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,320 something else you recently said publicly. 495 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,520 Me just like diving in to. Never going to post 3. 496 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,160 You spoke about how the creator economy has had to grow up a 497 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,480 bit. Yeah, tell me about that. 498 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,800 China's done a really, really cool thing with one of their 499 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,520 policies where if you want to talk about financial advice or 500 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,560 if you want to talk about medical advice on the Internet 501 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,360 as an influencer, you need the degree to back it up. 502 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,360 We did not know that. I love that so. 503 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,960 Important, yes, because there is a lot of misinformation out 504 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:32,520 there. As we know. 505 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,880 When you look at content online, you've got like three types of 506 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,920 subject areas. You've got like you're lived 507 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,880 experience expert. It's like this happened to me. 508 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,480 You've got opinions, which is what 90% of the content on the 509 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,440 Internet is. And then you've also got people 510 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,480 who are actually experts in the fields with say degrees and 511 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,240 research and actual practice. The problem is those 3 feeds are 512 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,080 now all in one A. 100%. And so when you're scrolling 513 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,320 through and you're getting those first 3 seconds, you are not 514 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,720 really able to different. The human mind can't 515 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,840 differentiate that that fast and therefore the idea of 516 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,160 credibility and being able to be like, oh, I can trust this 517 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,400 person is very wishy washy. It's really important I think 518 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,640 now for creators as well as brands to be able to create new 519 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,400 signifiers. And that's what China has done 520 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,320 as well. Like in terms of putting that 521 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,560 into practice for the platforms and stuff that they have over 522 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,960 there, which are completely separate to the platforms that 523 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,720 we have in, say, Australia and America and such, to then say, 524 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,520 OK, if this person is giving you medical advice, here's the 525 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,440 credentials. Yeah. 526 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,000 Otherwise they can't, they get kicked off the app, they can't 527 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,560 create that content. And I think that that is 528 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,120 incredibly important because I will never say that I am a 529 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,960 psychologist. Yeah, but I will say I'm a 530 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,160 mental health advocate and work in that space. 531 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520 And that is my level of expertise. 532 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,440 Yeah. And that's the clear 533 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,960 differentiation which we don't really have here. 534 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,200 No, I think users try and create it themselves, right? 535 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,640 Like when you watch a TikTok and somebody holds up their degree 536 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,360 or they say I'm an XYZ and therefore, you know, to like 537 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,400 quote UN quote trust them. But I completely agree. 538 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,280 We have that problem across the board where all of those three 539 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,960 like types of creators, pieces of content are all in one feed. 540 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,600 And another problem that I see very often is that we're all 541 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,000 together in the same room. Age wise. 542 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,000 Age wise. So you could be fighting with 543 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 somebody who is legitimately 11 and you, I have no idea, they 544 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,400 are leaving unhinged comments and you're fighting back because 545 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,720 you're like, no, you don't understand. 546 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,680 This is my credibility. This is who I am. 547 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,360 This is what I meant in that video, whatever. 548 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:37,200 And it's like you have no idea that you're actually fighting 549 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,600 with somebody who's 11. Who's 11? 550 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,120 And This is why, you know, when we talk about a topical issue in 551 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,880 this country around like the social media ban and stuff, 552 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,320 there is no Internet spaces for kids now, no. 553 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,480 Or teens like we used to have youth catered Internet spaces 554 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,920 growing up that does not exist. So it is a free for all in the 555 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,960 comments section from everyone from 15 to 55 A. 100%. 85 I know 556 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,240 my granddad's in the comments section, so like, come on. 557 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,600 Older than 55. Definitely, for sure. 558 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,080 I was trying to be nice and that I brought my grandfather into 559 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,240 it. OK, so then what guardrails do 560 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,160 you think should be but put in place? 561 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,640 But should it be through the platforms? 562 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,840 Should it be governments? I mean, I know we have. 563 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,480 I know that's controversial because we just had the under 16 564 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,080 social media ban here. Yes, when it comes to this, 565 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,960 prohibition's never the answer. I will 100% die on that hill. 566 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,120 We've seen historically, time and time again prohibition not 567 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:31,520 working for a multitude of things. 568 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,920 If you're going to treat the Internet, which the floodgates 569 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,040 opened for that decades ago, you can't close them now, no. 570 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,760 Especially for kids that grew up chronically online. 571 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,520 Exactly. And I understand when people 572 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,880 come back with the argument, Oh, well, the band's not for someone 573 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,600 who's 15. The band is for someone who's 574 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,200 5:00. I've got an 8 year old cousin. 575 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,240 The band's still messed with her head. 576 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. She now can't have YouTube Kids 577 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,920 anymore. And she went to India and she 578 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,040 had access to YouTube and she just landed back from India this 579 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,280 week and she now no longer has access to YouTube. 580 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,560 Yeah. And it's less about the 581 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,400 platforms and more about the fact that there is just no 582 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,240 online space for children that is safe and made with them in 583 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,120 mind. And that is what a lot of the 584 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,320 advocacy groups and the research think tanks who were vehemently 585 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,760 opposed to the bill as it went through was, hey, we agree that 586 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,800 they shouldn't be on Instagram at the age of 8, but they need 587 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,960 to have a space for them at the age of like 810, etcetera, 588 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,640 etcetera. And that's ultimately how I see 589 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,160 that sitting. Yeah, and it's really tough too, 590 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,200 because back to us all being in the same room together now, 591 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,040 children, preteens are going to Sephora, right? 592 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,080 And they're using Drunk Elephants, and they're using all 593 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,520 these products that like we would have never used at that 594 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,520 age. And it's because they're looking 595 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,000 up to influencers now, like we looked up to celebrities. 596 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,920 And I'm not saying it's better or worse, I don't know. 597 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,760 But I think looking up to influencers who are like, let's 598 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,520 say, a decade older than you and you get such an intimate look 599 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,480 into their lifestyle and their life, of course you're going to 600 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,120 want to emulate that. Like I was trying to emulate 601 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:02,080 Jessica Simpson too, but I just didn't really know anything 602 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,400 about her. So, you know, I didn't. 603 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,320 Have access to what she was doing every single morning. 604 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,400 Get ready with me is where she was going out. 605 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,440 There is so much access to people now. 100% that that is 606 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,000 actually the the issue at hand. It's how much of yourself you're 607 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,560 sharing online. And how much these young kids 608 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,680 are absorbing from older people that they look up to. 609 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,800 And therefore, of course they're going to want to not be on apps 610 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:25,760 that are, let's say, made for them. 611 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,800 Like if there was an app that was made, I'm sure there's apps 612 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,480 made for kids. But you know, if there was apps 613 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,960 made for 15 year olds, I totally get why they don't want to be on 614 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,720 them because they're like, well no, I want to be on the app. 615 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,440 With like what do you? Want to do at 15? 616 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,560 I wanted to be 25, yeah. I wanted to act like a 25. 617 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,760 I even dressed like a 25 year old did other things that I 618 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,160 thought a 25 year old was doing that I shouldn't have been doing 619 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,560 a. 100% like it makes total sense and I I see how damaging 620 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,240 it is like I totally agree but it's such a hard issue to 621 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,240 tackle. Which is why, controversially, 622 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,200 this is a hot take here. As much as I hated how the roll 623 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,160 out of Shay Mitchell's skin care brand for kids, I understand the 624 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,720 logic behind it absolutely. Because if they're they're 625 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,600 wanting to emulate like they're seeing the their mom and they're 626 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,880 seeing all of these things on the Internet and stuff and 627 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,360 they're seeing the Drunk Elephant consumption, why not 628 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,640 have a skin care brand of a face mask that's like a panda? 629 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,520 It is creating that space for them with what I think it's just 630 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,840 water and a few other things. Yeah, I don't think that's 631 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,080 actually that controversial. I spoke about that and there 632 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,640 were a lot of people, at least in our comments section, that 633 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,040 understood where she was coming from. 634 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,000 I think the way it was marketed was weird. 635 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,880 The marketing of it was weird. But I think in general, parents 636 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,360 put moisturizer on their kids, Yeah, and they want to do what 637 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,400 they see their parents doing. And if mommy's using mascara or 638 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,280 Daddy's using face wash or whatever, they want to do the 639 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,440 same thing. Exactly a. 100% OK well my last 640 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,640 question for you before we wrap up this beautiful chat in the 641 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,880 beautiful scenery is how do you touch grass right now? 642 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:00,840 I am at the beach every single day. 643 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,040 No way. Every day, like almost every 644 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,240 single day. It's a walking distance from my 645 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,840 house. I'm at the water every single 646 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,400 day. Something about like actually 647 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,800 going for a run. Not for me. 648 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,360 I trained for a 10K last year and I'm never doing that again. 649 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,440 Did you do the 10? K no, I injured myself. 650 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,600 Oh my gosh. Wait, I think I knew this. 651 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,320 And you were gonna go with a brand, right? 652 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,120 And I injured myself. No, because I just, I suck at 653 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,080 running and I'm at the stage of my life where I'm like, I know 654 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,280 who I am and who I am is not a runner. 655 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,640 OK, you know, fair enough. So I go for walks along the 656 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,720 beach and I go for little jogs along the beach and get out of 657 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,360 your head. Yeah, I get out of my head. 658 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,200 And I used to be a professional figure skater and I've started 659 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,480 going back to the rink because heated rivalry made me really 660 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,480 miss my figure skating. A. 661 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,960 Professional figure skater, what are you talking about? 662 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,520 Give me the T. From 5 to 18 I skated for 663 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,840 Australia in like America. Wait. 664 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,840 What? I thought the lore is so deep 665 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,320 with you, what are you talking about? 666 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,360 So if you're in Sydney, you might have been to Macquarie 667 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,360 Shopping Centre and they've got like the ice rink and the 668 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,200 McDonald's looks down onto the ice rink there. 669 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,840 I was five years old and I had to go with my dad to the 670 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,600 university. It was the school holidays and 671 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,640 my dad told me that if I behaved, I would get McDonald's, 672 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,680 which has a 5 year old. That's all you want? 673 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,800 Yes, I went there, saw all of these people twirling around on 674 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,400 this white surface, and I told my dad I wanted to try that. 675 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,160 And then I think I went to like, 3 or 5, somewhere between 3:00 676 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,360 to 5:00. National championships in 677 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,160 Australia, went to worlds and we placed 17th. 678 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,840 There's no money in figure skating in Australia. 679 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,360 If anyone, after heated rivalry and hearing this rivalry and 680 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,160 after hearing this, wants to get into like, a winter sport, make 681 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,360 sure you win the lottery. And yes, skated in the states 682 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,480 for the team in Minnesota, which. 683 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,360 What? Yeah. 684 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:54,600 Pearl, do you have footage of this? 685 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,760 Wait, you need to start a new TikTok account? 686 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaking of being chronically online, my media thought is how 687 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,840 can you put this on TikTok and let everybody know you need to 688 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,240 make a new TikTok account? I posted about this a lot over 689 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,160 the last few weeks actually because of the heated rivalry 690 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,160 stuff. No, you need to make a dedicated 691 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,920 TikTok account about this with clips of you figure skating like 692 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,320 from the archive. I love this. 693 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,200 This is crazy. But I'm really excited for the 694 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Winter Olympics and I've got like a whole plan for that 695 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,520 because no one covers the Winter Olympics here. 696 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,800 Well I will be keeping tabs because I freaking love winter 697 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,080 sports, obviously being from Canada. 698 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,040 Being from Canada, exactly OK. So you go to the beach every day 699 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,080 and you're going back into. Skating. 700 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,640 I'm getting back into skating. So I go once a week, slip it 701 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,560 out. I took my skates out of the 702 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,880 cupboard again. I go through this phase like 703 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,160 probably like every 18 months where I go back for three months 704 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,560 and then I'm like, I'm too tired, I've got too much work. 705 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,720 Yes, I understand that I was a competitive swimmer growing up. 706 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,240 I was a professional, but I was I was competitive and you're. 707 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400 Competitive with everything. I see that for you in a good 708 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,080 way. In a good way. 709 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,400 I promise you don't. See that for me at all, Thank 710 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,000 you. I'm. 711 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,080 Competitive with myself, which is why. 712 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,600 That's what I mean. So low sports, it works really 713 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,400 well for me. Like I yeah, 100% yes. 714 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,680 I agree with that. No, but every once in a while 715 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,240 I'll be like, you know, my mom's like that is like how you 716 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,160 decompress is like, you are like a swimmer, like go to the pool, 717 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,320 like swim laps, whatever. And every once in a while I do 718 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,720 it and I'm like, I'm going to do this every day. 719 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,480 This is like changed my life. And then you just get busy. 720 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,560 And you get busy, You just forget. 721 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,040 Yeah, you get busy and you forget. 722 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,160 But you actually should be going back to the activities and the 723 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,720 hobbies that you had as a kid. Apparently everybody. 724 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,320 'S talking about that. Everyone's talking about it. 725 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:34,360 It's honestly been. Amazing. 726 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Thank you for having me. I love hanging out with you 727 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,600 guys. This podcast is produced by the 728 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,040 youth digital media brand Centennial World. 729 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,200 Centennial World Podcast Network operates on Gadigal land. 730 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,440 We would like to acknowledge the Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the 731 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,640 traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to 732 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,440 elders both past and present.