1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 This episode of Mini Tech Scroll is brought to you by Blackbird, 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,160 a venture capital firm investing in Aussie and Kiwi startups. 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,920 From the very beginning, Blackbird has supported all 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,080 kinds of technology and founders, including Friesha 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,120 Gall, who Lauren chats with at the end of today's episode. 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,680 So if you have a big idea but need to raise investment to turn 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,000 it into reality, learn more and connect with the Blackbird team 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,760 through the link in our show notes. 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,840 Hey everyone, and welcome to Mini Scroll, the daily instant 10 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,400 culture podcast bring you the biggest stories from social 11 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,080 media, the creator economy, and the digital space every Monday 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,120 through Thursday and sometimes Fridays. 13 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,440 My name is Annabelle and I'm your Wednesday Mini Tech Scroll 14 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,720 host and also the Deputy editor of the youth digital media brand 15 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,560 Centennial World. Welcome back to Mini Tech Scroll 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,280 for another week, and this episode is a little bit of a 17 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,720 special one because it is my last time filming in this 18 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,160 office. As Lauren has been telling you 19 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,960 guys for a couple of weeks now, we are moving offices in our 20 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,720 coworking space. So we are going to a bigger 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,240 office and it has natural lighting which is really 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,720 exciting. So I am looking forward to the 23 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,640 new office. Even though this set is iconic, 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 I will say a lot has happened in this room. 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,720 And also before we get into this week's content, I do just want 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,920 to say I am not matching the mini tech scroll mic on purpose 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,760 with this cardigan. I just apparently live and 28 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,080 breathe mini text crawl. But yes, I am sorry if me 29 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,080 matching the mic is a little bit distracting. 30 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,400 Other than that, Please remember to rate review and subscribe and 31 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,360 star rate US on Spotify. We also have a buy me a coffee 32 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,840 link in our description if you are so inclined. 33 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,440 The first thing I think we need to talk about is the launch of 34 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,760 Grokopedia. There is always a lot going on 35 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,000 with Elon Musk, Grok and X, and I do try to avoid covering it 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,880 every week because I literally could cover it every week 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,520 because I like to have, you know, different things to talk 38 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,640 about. But I did feel that we did need 39 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,560 to cover the launch of Grokopedia this week. 40 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:13,200 For context, Grok is a generative AI chatbot that's 41 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,920 being developed by Elon Musk company XAI. 42 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,120 As you have probably guessed, if you aren't familiar with this, 43 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,560 this is the AI tool slash chatbot that is attached to X, 44 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,680 which is obviously formally Twitter. 45 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,000 Croc has made the news a couple of times this year. 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,360 Not necessarily for positive things, it's mostly been for 47 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,120 generating very controversial responses in which it has 48 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,880 started spewing racist and anti-Semitic content along with 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,200 various conspiracy theories. So where Grok is a generative AI 50 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,720 tool, you can probably already gather what Grokopedia is. 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,360 It is Grok's version of an online encyclopedia. 52 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,040 Elon Musk announced that Grokopedia was in the works 53 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,960 earlier this year in September, but a beta version has just been 54 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,400 released. He took to X yesterday to share 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,960 that quote. Grokopedia.com version 0.1 is 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,040 now live. Version 1.0 will be 10 times 57 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,960 better, but even at 0.1 it's better than Wikipedia in my 58 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,240 opinion. When you go into the website, it 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,080 does look very similar to the way that a generative AI chat 60 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,080 bot would look where you can type in a text bar a certain 61 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,640 topic. Once you do that, different 62 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,400 results pop up and you can then click on one from there. 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,480 It has a similar format to Wikipedia, and it has actually 64 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,800 been reported from Engadget that quote. 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Some articles are nearly identical to their entries on 66 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,760 Wikipedia. Though Wikipedia doesn't contain 67 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,000 inline links to sources in the same format, such entries do 68 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,720 have a small disclaimer that the content is adapted from 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Wikipedia. So you may be asking, if 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,680 Gruckopedia is so similar to Wikipedia, why did Elon Musk 71 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,280 choose to launch this product? And part of that reason is that 72 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,760 Elon Musk and others in his circles have been claiming that 73 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,360 Wikipedia is quote UN quote bias and woke. 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,520 Elon Musk has even repeatedly called the online encyclopedia 75 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,000 Wikipedia, where he ultimately popularized that I guess, 76 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,680 nickname or term for the encyclopedia. 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,440 Here. I do think it is worth noting 78 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,080 how information is delivered on Wikipedia. 79 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:29,040 The ultimate goal is neutrality, and the editors and writers have 80 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,680 a straightforward and direct approach to information sharing. 81 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,160 There are thousands of volunteers who edit, who write, 82 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,760 and who Fact Check the site to try and sure that the website 83 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,800 always maintains A neutral point of view. 84 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Of course, this doesn't always succeed. 85 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Think about how many articles are on Wikipedia, how many 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,520 people are working on it. And so Wikipedia isn't immune to 87 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,840 that information or political warfare. 88 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,720 But at the very least it is very transparent, making it an 89 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,880 important tool online in this day and age. 90 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,320 Over the past year, there's been a lot of articles circulating 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,120 examining how Wikipedia is operating in the current 92 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,920 political zeitgeist, specifically in the United 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,920 States, and I wanted to read you a paragraph from one by The New 94 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,880 Yorker Quote. If Wikipedia is Trump isms 95 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,600 opposite, or as a lot of people like to say, only half 96 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,040 facetiously, the only good place left on the Internet is because 97 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,880 of its principles and procedures. 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,480 You may not find everything you want to know about a given 99 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,120 subject, but Wikipedia articles, especially those on big and 100 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,440 contentious subjects, are remarkably forthcoming about why 101 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,640 they include or omit what they do. 102 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,760 When it comes to Elon Musk's opinion on Wikipedia 103 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,760 specifically, many have claimed that there seems to be some kind 104 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,840 of personal vendetta against the encyclopedia. 105 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,920 Elon Musk has attacked Wikipedia a number of times throughout his 106 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,440 career. He's also called for people to 107 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,440 stop donating to Wikipedia multiple times. 108 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,840 For example, in January this year, he quote tweeted a post 109 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:02,760 about political extremism on Wikipedia and wrote Defund 110 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,120 Wikipedia until balance is restored. 111 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,600 But I should add here that many sleuths and researchers have 112 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,640 also noted that he at one point had a very favorable view of 113 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,120 Wikipedia, but that clearly has changed based on his recent 114 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,720 comments and endeavors. And while there may be a 115 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,600 personal element here, I don't know if that's quite the full 116 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,160 story because it isn't just Elon Musk who was pushing this 117 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,960 narrative that Wikipedia is biased and woke and unreliable. 118 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,120 It has become increasingly popular among right wing 119 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,600 commentators, pundits, and influences in the United States. 120 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,720 Actually, I've seen so many articles noting that this is a 121 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,400 symptom of a media landscape that is increasingly dominated 122 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,720 by conservative voices and a conservative agenda where 123 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,480 Wikipedia is actually one of the hardest platforms to control and 124 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,440 push out a narrative in that way. 125 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,920 So I think all of this context definitely informs the launch of 126 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,320 Wikipedia, where many social media users and journalists see 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,520 this platform as a way for Elon Musk and others who share his 128 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,360 political views to push a Sun agenda. 129 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,960 A piece for the Washington Post outlined an example of some of 130 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,960 the differences that are already coming up in terms of the 131 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,960 entries between Wikipedia and Wikipedia, and how a Sun 132 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,760 political agenda might be pushed. 133 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,000 As the journalist Will Armas writes, quote Grokopedia's entry 134 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,200 on gender, for instance, begins with the sentence gender refers 135 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,280 to the binary classification of humans as male or female based 136 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,840 on biological sex. Wikipedia starts with gender is 137 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,720 the range of social, psychological, cultural, and 138 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,120 behavioral aspects of being a man or boy, woman or girl, or 139 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,440 third gender. So just from that example, I 140 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,720 guess you can see how certain topics might be phrased in 141 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,560 different ways, especially as Grokopedia develops and 142 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,480 potentially pulls less and less from Wikipedia. 143 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,560 I've actually even seen people on Reddit compare Grokapedia to 144 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,920 Conservapedia. I had no idea what that was, but 145 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,760 apparently it's an online encyclopedia written from a 146 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,760 self-described American conservative and fundamentalist 147 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Christian point of view. I feel like I also should note 148 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,880 that there have been statistics that indicate that Wikipedia 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,680 does have a slight Democratic leaning or progressive leaning 150 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,120 in the way that it presents information. 151 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,440 I've seen a couple of stats floating around. 152 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,240 One of them I think was in an Atlantic article. 153 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,120 But like I said earlier, this bias or leaning isn't 154 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,480 necessarily a bad thing. I think the transparency is what 155 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,440 really differentiates Wikipedia here, because you can look into 156 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,720 why things are included and why things are excluded or why 157 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,200 things are framed in a certain way. 158 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,440 So I just think it is important to reiterate that point. 159 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,480 But back to Wikipedia. Obviously a bias without 160 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,440 transparency is definitely concerning, but there are also 161 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,800 worries about relying on an AI model to generate encyclopedia 162 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,200 entries, given that there are still issues with accuracy and 163 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,240 hallucinating information. All in all, I think I do have my 164 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,800 doubts about whether Wikipedia will ever be as culturally 165 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,480 influential as something like Wikipedia, even if Wikipedia is 166 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,040 facing its own problems with the rise of AI, which is something I 167 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,040 reported on last week. Wikipedia is really getting a 168 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,440 lot of airtime. But at the end of the day, I do 169 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,560 think this story and the launch of Gracopedia goes to show how 170 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,720 it's constantly getting increasingly difficult, I guess, 171 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,480 to find neutral or unbiased or transparent information online. 172 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,960 Granted, I do understand that neutrality is a complicated and 173 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,160 debatable subject, like CAN information ever be neutral or 174 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,120 can storytelling and information sharing even be neutral? 175 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,400 But I guess it just comes down to transparency in this regard. 176 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,600 But yes, definitely let me know your thoughts on Gruckopedia, 177 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,120 where you think the platform will be going, and if people 178 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,600 will even use it. Anyway, that brings us to our 179 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,240 next story, which is an update about threads, and that is that 180 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,680 Meta has introduced ghost posts, which is kind of hard for me to 181 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,280 say for some reason, but these posts essentially allow users to 182 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,520 share posts that will disappear after 24 hours. 183 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,120 I think it's kind of like stories for text posts or like 184 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,520 Snapchat for text posts, if that's how you want to imagine 185 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,400 it. Meta announced the new feature 186 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,920 on October 27th in a blog post and they are marketing this 187 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,800 update as a way for users to share their quote UN quote 188 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,160 unfiltered thoughts, which I think is interesting but also 189 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,200 more on that later. How it works is that these posts 190 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,480 will automatically archive after 24 hours, where replies to ghost 191 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,520 posts are sent to your inbox and only the poster can see who 192 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,840 liked and replied to the post. Sarah Perez, in a piece for 193 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,560 TechCrunch, noted that Mehta told the publication that the 194 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,040 feature was ultimately designed to quote encourage more low 195 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,080 stakes sharing within the feed. She also noted that this 196 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,000 actually isn't the first time that a text first platform has 197 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,320 introduced A disappearing feature like this, as she 198 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,800 continues quote before it was X Twitter experimented with this 199 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,560 form of sharing back in 2020 with Fleets, which appeared as 200 00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,880 disappearing stories. However, the company pulled the 201 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,800 feature the following year, citing a lack of adoption. 202 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,840 Now I don't really use threads to be fair, but I did scroll 203 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,280 through my feed and found quite a few people using ghost posts 204 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,000 already. But I do think it's hard to know 205 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,800 whether this feature will actually catch on or not because 206 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,480 it is still early days. I do feel like when a new 207 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,760 feature on a social platform drops, a lot of us just like try 208 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,880 it once and then never again. Like I mentioned, I do think 209 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,760 it's particularly interesting that Meta would introduce a 210 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,000 feature that allows users to share quote UN quote unfiltered 211 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,760 thoughts in the same year that they have completely scaled back 212 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,160 their moderation policies. If you guys don't remember 213 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,560 actually in my first ever mini text scroll episode, please 214 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,080 don't go back and watch it. I feel like I was probably 215 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,960 awkward, but I reported on how Mark Zuckerberg took to social 216 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,280 media to share some of the updates on Metas moderation 217 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,760 policies. This included replacing fact 218 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,040 checkers with community notes, removing restrictions on various 219 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,800 topics like immigration and gender, and also moving the 220 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,880 trust and safety and content moderation teams out of 221 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,440 California to Texas. This was allegedly because there 222 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,000 was a growing concern that biased employees were overly 223 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,920 censoring content. This got a lot of backlash at 224 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,200 the time, mostly because people felt like it would allow for 225 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,920 more hate speech to circulate on metas platforms, but also 226 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,360 because it felt like Mehta was feeding into the political 227 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,120 zeitgeist and appeasing Trump and aligning with his political 228 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,480 agenda. But of course, freedom of speech 229 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,480 and expression is definitely important on social media, so a 230 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,280 lot of people also argued that the scaling back of moderation 231 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,000 could be a good thing. But that kind of brings us to 232 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,800 this ongoing battle between platforms and users about where 233 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,040 to draw the line when it comes to this freedom, like freedom of 234 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,640 expression and speech and protecting hate speech and 235 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,760 discriminatory rhetoric. With this context and the back 236 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,720 and forth, the introduction of ghost posts could be interpreted 237 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,720 as a kind of dog whistle, like an invitation for users to post 238 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,400 more controversial or even problematic opinions without the 239 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,160 fear of moderation or backlash or being held accountable 240 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,640 because the post does disappear. That said though, threads are 241 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,400 still far less political than somewhere like X, so it's 242 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,320 possible that the culture on the app just doesn't lend itself to 243 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,160 that kind of discourse. But I definitely think the 244 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,360 timing here is interesting, with Meta kind of reframing what free 245 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,440 expression could look like on the platforms, especially as 246 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,160 they continue stepping back from more active moderation online. 247 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,200 My last story for today is a little bit of a quick one and 248 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,160 maybe a little bit of a silly one, but I have another update 249 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,560 on the AI minister Diala from Albania. 250 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:08,680 I reported on this story previously, obviously, and 251 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,040 firstly, love to hear that we have Albanian listeners and 252 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,120 please, if there are any more of you, share your opinion on this 253 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,680 whole thing. But in case you missed it, the 254 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,960 Albanian Prime Minister, Eddie Rama became the first leader 255 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,840 making Albania the first country in the world to appoint a 256 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,800 cabinet minister powered by AI. Like I mentioned, the minister's 257 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,840 name is Diyela, which reportedly means sunshine or sun in 258 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,080 Albanian. And she does have an avatar 259 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,600 where she shows up as a woman. And her portfolio slash role is 260 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,440 essentially to tackle corruption and promote transparency in 261 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,920 government. And this is especially around 262 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,040 public procurement, which is the purchase of goods, wax or 263 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,360 services by the government. That is the rundown, in case you 264 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,200 missed it. But there are now reports 265 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,760 circulating that according to the Prime Minister, Diella is, 266 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,800 quote UN quote, pregnant with 83 children. 267 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Eddie Rama made this statement during the Berlin Global 268 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,880 Dialogue. And essentially these 83 269 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,240 children are going to be AI buy assistance to each MP in 270 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,880 Parliament. Diana is pregnant and she's 271 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:21,200 expecting 83 kids, each kid for one member of our Parliament 272 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,480 that will serve the MPs as an assistant, that will participate 273 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,160 in the parliamentary sessions, that will keep record of 274 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,320 everything that is happening, that will inform and will 275 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,200 suggest to the MPs how to react. That will have all the 276 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,120 knowledge. These kids will have all the 277 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,160 knowledge of their mom. So the reason I wanted to talk 278 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,000 about this story today is not necessarily to give you an 279 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,960 update, but it's because I find the use of language here quite 280 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,480 interesting. Like why is the leader of a 281 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,720 country choosing to anthropomorphize AI in this way? 282 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Like why frame it as Diella is quote UN quote pregnant and 283 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,680 giving birth to other AIS? I mean, I guess this 284 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,520 personification isn't necessarily new when it comes to 285 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,600 AI. We're seeing so many more people 286 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,960 turn to chat bots like ChatGPT for emotional support, even 287 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,640 mental health advice. In fact, another story that 288 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,960 broke this week was that recent data shows that around 0.07 of 289 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,920 ChatGPT uses in a given week show signs of mental health 290 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,760 emergency like mania, psychosis or suicidal thoughts. 291 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,760 And they do turn to the chat bot, all these conversations. 292 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,520 And of course, we're also seeing the rise of AI boyfriends, 293 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,360 girlfriends, and other companions or partners. 294 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,680 So people are already projecting humanity onto these chat bots 295 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,640 and AI models. But to see a government to it is 296 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,040 quite interesting. And I think it says a lot about 297 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,080 how we treat AI not just necessarily as a tool, but also 298 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,440 as a person or like a social actor, I guess, that we can talk 299 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,720 to and even trust. We're definitely pros and cons 300 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,200 to this. The risk, of course, is that we, 301 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,920 I guess, start to believe that these systems have some sort of 302 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,119 free will or that they can even make moral judgement when in 303 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,440 reality they are pulling from existing information, predicting 304 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,079 patterns based on data, not acting out of morality or 305 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:25,720 conscience. And ultimately, when we use 306 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,400 human language in this way, I guess we really start to see 307 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,960 that line blur. It's rhetoric that ultimately I 308 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,840 think reshapes or recalculates how we think about a the eye and 309 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,200 technology itself. I don't really have too much 310 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,800 more to say there about that story. 311 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,880 I'd definitely be intrigued to hear what you guys think about 312 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,880 it. But I just thought it was really 313 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,200 interesting and also kind of funny to be our last story of 314 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,720 this week before we get into a Lauren's interview. 315 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaking of Lauren's interview, thanks to Blackbird, we are 316 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,120 chatting with Friesha Gaul in today's episode, who is the 317 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,640 founder of On Game. So let's just cut to that now. 318 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,400 Welcome, Friesha. Hello, thanks for the welcome. 319 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,840 I'm so excited to chat with you today. 320 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,960 I feel like what you're building is super unique and the space 321 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,800 that you're building in it is also unique and also super 322 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,800 relevant to our mini tech audience. 323 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,080 So with that being said, can you tell us about On Zero and what 324 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,320 you're building? Yeah. 325 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,640 So On Zero is essentially a way to touch virtual virtual reality 326 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,000 or any game that you're in, whether that's a simulation or 327 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,160 you're mapping it over to a robot so you have a hand or 328 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,080 something like that, and you want to feel it from halfway 329 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,160 across the globe. That's essentially what we're 330 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,640 working on. So I started it wanting to be a 331 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,040 keyboard glove and I realized that a really cheap tracking 332 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,760 solution was in a dorm room and decided hey, I can make a really 333 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,680 cheap and affordable haptic glove, whether that's for VR or 334 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,400 for simulations. OK, take it back. 335 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,160 Tell me, how did you get interested in this? 336 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,320 How are you building this? I need to know more. 337 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,320 OK, so essentially I got really into modding electronics as a 338 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:01,880 kid. So I lived in the middle of 339 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,200 nowhere and there weren't that many interesting things to do. 340 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,160 So it's always sort of breaking into backyards. 341 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,480 My dad had a huge warehouse, and so as we kill these tree houses 342 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,000 and then eventually realized electricity could do something. 343 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,240 And so my first ever venture was making this huge like Super 344 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,880 Mario Kart or Mario Kart. And essentially once I saw the 345 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,400 motor move, I was like, this is sick. 346 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,400 And so when I finally went to university for quantum 347 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,640 engineering, which is electrical engineering with extra 348 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,440 standards. I want to do theoretical 349 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,480 physics, but I wasn't around essentially I got really bored. 350 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,080 I wasn't allowed to accelerate. And I had been teaching with pH 351 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,680 DS since I was like 15 or 16 in the quantum physics space. 352 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,680 And so I asked to accelerate, but they're examined vigilators 353 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,520 on around. So I started working on my own 354 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,480 projects, one of which was born out of me being on this train. 355 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,360 And I wanted to make a personal website because everyone needs 356 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,280 to get into a big tech internship or something. 357 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,960 And so I was making this thing and it was going to be like an 358 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,960 interactive video game website, but my computer went flat. 359 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,800 But I had this hobby of jailbreaking iPhones, and I 360 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,120 figured it's a computer as well. So I tried to code on its 361 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,320 terminal, but there's no shift or control button easily 362 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,040 accessible. And I wished in that moment I 363 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,000 could just type in there. So I went home and with my 364 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,480 knowledge of electronics, I thought. 365 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,560 Surely this is kind of possible, right? 366 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,720 And this was back in January. So now we have like the the meta 367 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,760 ECG wristbands now just coming out. 368 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,640 But for me, I thought, you know, surely we can get the semicolons 369 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,800 and stuff in there and pre train something like that. 370 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:26,920 It's sort of worked, sort of didn't. 371 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,680 I think it's also chalking it up to me like being new to embedded 372 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,160 machine learning, but pretty impressive as a first project. 373 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,200 And I put it on YouTube and I went to sleep and I was applying 374 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,080 to like a 1K grant and I had to put it onto YouTube because I 375 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,880 couldn't upload an MP4. I woke up the next day and there 376 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,080 was like not like viral, but pretty good. 377 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,760 Like 1500 people were like, this is insane. 378 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,640 Yeah. Then there was a 0 subscriber 379 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,480 YouTube account. So like all these people were 380 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,400 like, make it, make it, make it. And eventually I made a discord 381 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,080 and started going further and further into it. 382 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,080 And I just asked them like, hey, do you what do you want this in 383 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,360 like if I'm going to make it a quote UN quote product. 384 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,600 And like I was born into a skiing company, so I knew a bit 385 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,320 about how businesses worked. Not tag. 386 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,720 What do you mean you were born into a ski company? 387 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,960 What does? That mean OK OK OK so my parents 388 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,040 hated their lives. My dad was working at Commbank 389 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,640 as an investor and my mom was a consulted at BCG. 390 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,920 So lots of money. Did not like it at all. 391 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,000 OK so my mom used to be in the Canadian army. 392 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,520 So the Navy called her up and said hey we need personnel on 393 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,080 board won't hop in the ship and go around the world and crash 394 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,640 out for a year. And she said yes. 395 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,680 So she went to Australia and stopped off in for the Olympics, 396 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,560 danced with my dad and my dad was like hey, you're Canadian 397 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,200 and I was on the ski team. We should ask the Co founder of 398 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,640 Rick Curl for one meal and run off to Canada. 399 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,880 Oh OK. I was born that year. 400 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:49,800 So my whole life I have these two absolutely insane parents 401 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,840 who are running halfway across the globe every single half year 402 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,800 because the winter is only around for six months. 403 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,840 And so I went to like 13 different schools. 404 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,240 They're running this company going to like Colorado to these 405 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,000 pitch nights and shows and conferences. 406 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,600 I'm sleeping underneath the table while these people are 407 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,760 like pitching them and giving them these QR codes. 408 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,560 I never really knew too much about startups, but I was I was 409 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,480 an oak semi related one. They they managed to like run it 410 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,600 and it was a skiing company. I helped out by making merch and 411 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,280 being a waitress because I want to sort of run at some stage. 412 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Oh my God. But it all worked out pretty 413 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,840 well. Then they managed to exit before 414 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,640 COVID, which is great for ski tourism. 415 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,560 And yeah, essentially for me, when I was seeing this product, 416 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,520 I, I figured I'm, I'd prefer to work for myself. 417 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,960 So it's a fun way to sort of learn how to do something. 418 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,400 And I also realized when I was pulling it between like 419 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,480 healthcare and gaming and all these other things, I put my VR 420 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,520 headset down not of not loving it. 421 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,760 So because I went to all of these 13 different schools 422 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,160 growing up, how do you keep friends for more than six 423 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,240 months, right? I always had this stand alone 424 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,680 really cheap VR headset and I used it and I created my own 425 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,960 virtual world that was my living room in Canada. 426 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,120 And I played Dungeons and Dragons with my friends from it 427 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,360 was absolutely sick. But progressively VR was 428 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:10,680 completely bought out by Meta, at least the cheap space and for 429 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,920 me it was my entire social life. So to see like a headset get 430 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,720 defunct after like 3 years and then you have to get a Facebook 431 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,520 account to continue using things and they double the price like 432 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,360 consistently. It absolutely sucked. 433 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,720 And now only recently are they trying to go cheap because they 434 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,520 have finally competitors after the AR market coming in. 435 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,120 And so I was really against this, right? 436 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,160 Like the whole VR industry started with people like Palmer 437 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,560 Luckey walking and like 19 year olds like me just sort of 438 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,080 messing around in their rooms or garages making stuff. 439 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,520 Yeah. And that's where all the 440 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,920 innovation came in. So it was no surprise when 441 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,120 there's a steep decline of people buying headsets and stuff 442 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,200 because the developers now had to pay a ridiculous, well, like 443 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,080 lose a ridiculous amount of money whenever they were 444 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,320 publishing things. So when I had this this cheap 445 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,040 tracking solution, I figured, I've been following haptic 446 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,240 gloves forever and people are still selling tracking gloves 447 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,440 for over $1000. I reckon I could make it better. 448 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,640 Like I could probably just slap on the same motors you have in 449 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,120 your phone when you're typing or in your PlayStation controller 450 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,600 when a dragon like runs through when it rambles onto your 451 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,520 fingertips and onto your palms. And like, it would only be like 452 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,760 70 or 60 bucks in pure materials. 453 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,560 Of course, you have to charge a bit because you have to pay 454 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,360 people human wages. And so, like, what we're going 455 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,120 for is probably like 250. So like, for us, we have a very 456 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,360 open source mentality in terms of like, we want to share what 457 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,840 we're working on, but we want to be the locus of the community. 458 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,640 So I'm also very against, like, hiding things and like, try to 459 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,280 patent it, but don't, like, crush small guys, encourage 460 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,440 innovation, creating things for the sake of it. 461 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:42,840 Yeah. I was just working on this cheap 462 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,880 tracking solution. I was running out of money. 463 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,680 So it's like 60 bucks. And it was like my food 464 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,200 allowance every week that my mom would send it was like 100 465 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,000 bucks. And I was spending it mostly on 466 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,600 rice, and I mean, partially on rice and mostly Aliexpress 467 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:56,360 sensors. Yeah, yeah. 468 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,160 And so like people are following along as I'm doing this, but I'm 469 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,720 kind of dying physically. So my sister was doom scrolling 470 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,840 on LinkedIn and saw this one K Grant from a place called 471 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,360 Blackbird. Now, I had no clue that startup 472 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,280 space, but essentially like I got involved with Blackbird far, 473 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,040 but before I knew that they were like OG can't vote investors or 474 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,520 whatever. I was probably like two or three 475 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,320 months in and then it finally like clicked. 476 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,320 Wow, that's. Like holy cow, I just thought 477 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,040 they wanted money. So like I'd already done the 478 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,040 YouTube thing and everything else and it was like sort of 479 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,480 startupy, but like I didn't know who they were. 480 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,560 Like I didn't really care as long as I had some. 481 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,240 Yeah, fair enough. And. 482 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,880 So I was developing it out and I got more and more in love with 483 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,400 the idea because like, most of my life has been really, really 484 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,400 fueled by one, like creative ambition and doing things, but 485 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,000 also spite. Like I love operating in spaces 486 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,560 that are just. I love how you said that so 487 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,560 casually. Like but also spite. 488 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:53,320 OK. OK, OK. 489 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,640 Look, the people who say that they're just doing something for 490 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,840 the betterment of the world are just dying. 491 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,680 Like, like it's nice that they're doing that, but there's, 492 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,160 there's always like a secondary shadow about every person. 493 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,480 Yeah, yeah. Like, I love helping people, but 494 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,840 I also love proving people wrong. 495 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,680 There's. Also self-interest there always, 496 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,160 of course. Feels good to prove. 497 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:12,920 Someone. Yes. 498 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:13,520 Yes. Yes. 499 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,920 But yeah, the whole glove idea was really just this passion 500 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,080 project to make some sort of free and open source thing, 501 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,000 maybe show it off to, I don't know, employers, if they even 502 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,200 cared. But then I realized, like, I 503 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,800 only existed because of the VR space. 504 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,720 And it's been really depressingly not dead for a 505 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,200 while. But like, like, there's always a 506 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,160 cult that follows it, like the social VR people in VR chat who 507 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,600 are just anime girls because it can be. 508 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,680 But like, for the most part, after the big buyout, Medica 509 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,240 keep it going for a while. But like, things like the 510 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,960 metaverse didn't always land. Like, there were two PG. 511 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,240 Yeah, yeah. And so people just didn't want 512 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,760 to be on it. And also publishing is a studio 513 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,800 or even just an individual became harder and harder. 514 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,400 And so it was sort of like, why not just make something for the 515 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,160 PC where there's more people? And I fully agreed with that. 516 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,720 But like more and more, I'm so excited about the future of VR. 517 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,480 And I think only now some people are thinking about it like I was 518 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,560 interested in this like January and February. 519 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,840 But like with AR and everything else, and especially the 520 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,440 evolution of like AI generated stuff. 521 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,680 And I want to say I'm an AI person. 522 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,400 Not really, but it's mostly their ability to render things 523 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,560 in 3D is so magical. Like for me, I really want to 524 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,800 make a play in the space, not just like that area, but in 525 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,960 terms of just making VR feel more real. 526 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,560 And one of the biggest bottlenecks for VR has been it's 527 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,560 so hard to create. And for me as a kid, I was 528 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,240 making all these things. And there's a reason I could end 529 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,800 up doing quantum engineering right after because making video 530 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,560 games, it's kind of hard. Like you have to know a lot. 531 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,160 But with the ability to like generate all of these 3D things 532 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,760 that are interactable and stuff like that, the space looks 533 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,840 really, really cool. And now Samsung and Apple are 534 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,360 starting to make a bit of a play for it, which is awesome. 535 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,200 Like, I love competition so much. 536 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,000 Like, please, I don't OK, like, I sort of do care who's on the 537 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,280 top because like, it will really decide the creative, you know, 538 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,320 future of this. And I think it should be open. 539 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760 But like, the fact that people are competing in the 1st place 540 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,800 is so, so good. But yeah, I'm, I'm basically 541 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,000 making VR touchable, but my, my aim is really to make VR kind of 542 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,560 more cheap and human again, because it's been a lot more 543 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,400 hard to develop as an indie dev. And for me, I've been waiting 544 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,240 for touch for forever, like 10 years or something like that. 545 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,280 So now that I have like a bit of an electronics background, screw 546 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,880 it. Yeah, you're just going for it. 547 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:33,640 Basically. Oh, I love that. 548 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,840 OK, so it sounds like obviously your company started from, you 549 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,960 know, a need a gap that you saw yourself, but then it was really 550 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,280 the foundation was built through community and now you also have 551 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360 a community side to your business that you're doing as 552 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,120 well. Yeah. 553 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,200 Can you tell me about that? Yeah, so this started before on 554 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,400 0. So there's this thing called 555 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,800 ACES, Australian Creative Electronics Society, and what it 556 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,840 is is me and this guy named Joseph. 557 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,480 We're having a bit of a problem with the Australian one, Startup 558 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,320 space, but mostly just like builder space, full stop. 559 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,000 Because it felt like there was a lot of like advisors and a lot 560 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,360 of coaches and a lot of whatever stuff, but there weren't really 561 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,480 people who were just like openly and publicly being stupid. 562 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,160 And that's really nice. Like for me, I was in university 563 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,720 and I moved to the city after always living in small towns. 564 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,320 Like I lived in a small town in Canada where my parents were 565 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,320 running a ski company. But it got really big in the 566 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,040 winter, of course, because it's a skiing place. 567 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,920 But it was always like, you know, 1000 people towns. 568 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,040 So I went to the city. I was expecting like, what the 569 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,840 pitch conferences had these really, really passionate people 570 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,400 who will not shut up about skiing. 571 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,800 And I was thinking maybe engineers are like that too, 572 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,840 right? Because I was all, I had been in 573 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,360 San Francisco, in Colorado and, you know, the Las Vegas of the 574 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,880 world, right. And so when I finally got here, 575 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,200 I was so underwhelmed. I was like, you know, where's 576 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,720 your passion? I was like, I know you want to 577 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,480 be a software engineer at Atlassian, but like, Atlassian 578 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:58,760 started somewhere. Yeah. 579 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,360 You know, all these places started somewhere and the fact 580 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,200 that you don't think that you can do it is crazy. 581 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,040 Like every single founder isn't a genius to just someone who is 582 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,240 so so stubborn but they're just going to will it into. 583 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,000 Yeah, yeah. And like, there's a lot of 584 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,520 people around me who just think thought that they just could not 585 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,000 do things. And eventually that sort of 586 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,480 pushes you to be quiet and start to hide things as well. 587 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,320 And so essentially aces was my attempt at like, I couldn't 588 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,320 accelerate my grades. I couldn't find people who are 589 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,680 interested in things. I didn't even care if you're 590 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,480 doing a degree. Like don't be scared of me 591 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,280 because I go to unis WI want to go to MIT. 592 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,600 Yeah, yeah. Like it for me, it's like if you 593 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,320 are a dropout, you're equal to me. 594 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,800 Like it does not matter. But like what really matters is 595 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,560 your passion. And so we started this monthly 596 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,160 meet up where essentially anyone can come in and just show off 597 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,720 what they're working on. So we've had the head of 598 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,320 engineering at Rd. show off the little transceivers and the 599 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,920 mics. And we've also had like year 600 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,720 five students using like Raspberry Pi's to ping up to 601 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,520 airplanes overhead and figure out how fast they're going and 602 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,840 like what make and model they are. 603 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,080 And it's like, what the hell, This guy's a genius. 604 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,520 Yeah. And so we started in February 605 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,280 with no one and now we're over 1000 people and we're start, 606 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,160 we're looking at starting to give up grants. 607 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,240 OK. So tell me then about how your 608 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,120 business is structured. So you said you have a Co 609 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,400 founder, Yeah, yeah. So do you guys work on this full 610 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,360 time? Yeah, so essentially we were at 611 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,520 UNSW and we met each other through a group project that was 612 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,400 absolute hell. I ended up not sleeping for five 613 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,360 days at the end because No 1 ended up doing anything. 614 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,680 And that's how I realized I could rely on him because he's 615 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120 the only person in my group who was like, I'm not going to play 616 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 League of Legends, I'm going to help you. 617 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,120 And so that was really, really brilliant. 618 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,120 But essentially, as we're doing this, I actually said, you know, 619 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,080 screw it. I'm going to Kickstarter this or 620 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,960 nothing. I'm going to figure out a way to 621 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,920 bootstrap this if I don't get investment. 622 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,520 And I thought I wouldn't get investment because it's VR, 623 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,840 which is, you know, everyone hears about it. 624 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,640 It's like, it's kind of like a dead industry, right? 625 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,480 For me, I really, really do believe in it and think that 626 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,120 there's just so much that's going to come out and like, mark 627 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,840 my words, if you're listening to this, like if I had money other 628 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,920 than in my company, I would be betting a lot of money. 629 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,200 But essentially, we actually pitched it. 630 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,280 And within this time, some crazy stuff happened that I wouldn't 631 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,720 even think I can say. But basically I was flying 632 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,280 around and I just got the best mom, Laura ever. 633 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,640 But over that weekend, I then came back, I'm walking around 634 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,800 you in Southwest and I get called back. 635 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,800 I can't say like, who's this from and stuff like that. 636 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,440 Like I'm involved in start man and stuff like that. 637 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,720 And they're like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, yeah, it's like, 638 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,880 yeah, we'll progress this here's the paperwork, blah, blah, blah. 639 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,880 And I'm just standing there like I'm 19 and you're saying you're 640 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,960 gonna give me like 600K? Holy shit. 641 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800 Like The thing is, like, I was so hyped, right? 642 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,000 Yeah, of course. Like I, I had like ran into 643 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,840 Shawn's room and fucking full tackled that guy was like, let's 644 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,480 go. Because I would have done it 645 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,360 anyways. But like, it's so much easier 646 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,360 when you can feed yourself. Yeah, of course. 647 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,480 But yeah, essentially, like that's what happened. 648 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,400 I was just in total awe and so excited about it. 649 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,680 I realized like some crazy things about startups within 650 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,400 that time. And I'm like how fast you can 651 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,800 burn through money and how little you originally like I 652 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,040 really started wanting a really little amount of money. 653 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,240 And thank God other founders were like, yeah, yeah. 654 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,560 Like for me like 600 K is still like I could raise more and 655 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200 especially with start my demo day and things before then. 656 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,880 I have been offered by angels by BC funds a lot of people, I 657 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,280 can't say but like people who are more globally known and 658 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,520 really like for me, I'm in this weird situation because I see 659 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,080 like the AI bubble and the raises and stuff like that and 660 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,080 look 19 year old quantum engineering teaching with PhDs. 661 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,880 I could do the crazy route. But for me like the VR space is 662 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,120 very personality driven and also like I'm thinking about the 663 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,440 company that I would actually want to support even if I wasn't 664 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,880 buying from them. Like who would I actually love? 665 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,000 Because for me, I gave up on VR for a reason. 666 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,680 And one of the big ones was because it became too 667 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,600 corporatized and there wasn't really a large vision for it in 668 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,880 the future. And I found that it was really 669 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,320 like, you know, all these companies are sort of like run. 670 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,679 And I hate to say it like as companies, but when you get to a 671 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,880 certain stage, like the board of directors is going to say to say 672 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,600 this, the consultants are going to say this. 673 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,040 And you don't really have one person saying, like, this is the 674 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,880 ultimate vision, let's go. And like, if you have one person 675 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,679 who's pushing that, they can push for it. 676 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,280 And maybe they're wrong, but at least they have something there. 677 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,239 And so for me, equity was such a huge thing, like if I was going 678 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,800 to lose a certain amount of my company and I sent this to them, 679 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,080 if I lose a certain amount of my company, I'm not doing this 680 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,880 anymore. Like I don't want to lose 50% to 681 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,080 Series A. And so essentially for me it was 682 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,080 like, OK, how am I going to do this? 683 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,000 And I realized like I'm deferred from university. 684 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,520 I can only defer for so long. And so I took the 600K, which is 685 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,400 pretty awesome because it's for a lower equity amount and 686 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,040 everything else. But essentially I'm dual raising 687 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,040 it with a Kickstarter. So I'm going to CES, which is 688 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,280 the world's largest Electronics Show and stuff like that. 689 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,720 We're also getting involved with B to B. 690 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:05,640 So like the military and robotics companies think it's 691 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,320 pretty sick because it's way cheaper than what they currently 692 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,120 have. I can't really talk about that 693 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,160 area, but like can say the industries. 694 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,200 Yeah. And so that's a great way to get 695 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,360 like a lot of money early in batch units. 696 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,240 And gamers are probably, I love them so much because I comfort 697 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,480 them, but I also they are like the most nitpicky evil people 698 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,600 you'll ever be. Like I love them. 699 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,000 But they will talk about latency like it is Satan's work and in 700 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,200 most other areas. And I mean like even in like 701 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,760 defense, they might care less. But like in that area, user 702 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,800 experience, blah, blah, blah. Everything else should be 703 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,680 perfect. There's a reason why GPU's were 704 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,640 selling and gaming before like AI. 705 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,320 Oh my gosh, Like it's such, you have such complex technology for 706 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,400 this like luxury, the industry. Like I probably wouldn't want to 707 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,080 operate in any other industry unless it was like robotics. 708 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,320 But like, yeah, it's you're making for a really hard 709 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,840 customer. And so like, I love it because, 710 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,040 you know, if you're not playing at a hard mode, it's not fun. 711 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,480 Yeah, yeah. But like, it means that you sort 712 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,600 of have to strategize how you're going to do things, which is 713 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,560 kind of interesting. But yeah, it's sort of what's 714 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,880 happening here at on 0. That's really cool. 715 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,320 I love that. OK, So what is your future 716 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,160 vision then? Like where do you see the future 717 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,840 of the company? Obviously, you guys are still 718 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,560 quite green and in that startup phase. 719 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,840 What are your future plans? I want to, you know, ask to be 720 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,720 an astronaut on the moon. And I want to reach down. 721 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:32,960 I want to feel the sand fall beneath my hands. 722 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,320 I want to hear the beach there as real as possible as I can. 723 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:43,360 Funny enough, I'd never watched Ready Player 1 before any of 724 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,080 this. My Co founder was like, you have 725 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,240 to watch this thing. But really it's like I've always 726 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,920 loved like animes like Sword Art Online and stuff like that. 727 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,440 And I was always waiting for it to get more and more immersive. 728 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,760 And so for me, I really want to play in the immersive tech area 729 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,080 and the hardware area, but also just like enable more people to 730 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,120 make things because what VR was really about was like anyone 731 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,480 could make anything and it was super cheap. 732 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:07,960 You could get on your computer and you could do it. 733 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,080 Like 10 year old me was told about Unity and like tinker Cat 734 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,840 and stuff like that terrible cat thing. 735 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,480 It's just surprising, but it teaches you stuff. 736 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,640 And I've been learning about this and like, it was really 737 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,200 tough, but it was one of the most liberating things ever. 738 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,920 And I think like I don't care necessarily about doing 739 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,600 engineering. What I've always loved was the 740 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,960 ability to just bring anything into existence and I find that a 741 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,800 lot of people are very financially restricted. 742 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:40,480 Like I was like I like the day before I got the 600 Ki went 743 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,480 into the mirror, I cut my hair dyed in ombre red and I was like 744 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,840 fuck it, I'll kick started this I. 745 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,960 Like it too much? Because really it's, it's more 746 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,760 like representing, like anyone should have the ability to 747 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,880 create. And for me, like if you can 748 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,200 incentivize people and pay people proper wages for doing 749 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,560 what they love, that's so huge. Cuz like for me, if I wasn't 750 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,280 doing theoretical physics or engineering or stuff like that, 751 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,160 I always wanted to do film and painting and stuff like that, 752 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,720 but it just wouldn't pay. Yeah, yeah. 753 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,120 And so it's really like, how can you enable more people to 754 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,120 create? And so start with cheap 755 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,520 hardware, but go more and more into the accessibility space. 756 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,560 So, you know, making development a lot easier and stuff like 757 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,720 that. But it's really just like I'm 758 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,680 making the kind of Christmas presents I would have killed for 759 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,040 as a kid. That's so sweet. 760 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,040 I love that. OK. 761 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,240 So the last thing I would love to know is do you have a 762 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:33,920 timeline of when your products will be available? 763 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,200 Yeah. So CES, which is the world's 764 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,520 largest Electronics Show is essentially like this big thing 765 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,800 where a lot of people present, you can get into the media and 766 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,880 stuff like that. For right now, we're starting to 767 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,360 ramp up a bit more. So we're going to get our like 768 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,720 growth interns and whatever else in because we are overworked as 769 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,520 Hex. So there's a comparable brand to 770 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,120 us who successfully kick started and they don't even have haptics 771 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,920 and their team is 40 people. We've learned how to sew on our 772 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,880 own. We have an in house picking 773 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,040 place machine for PCBS like for like a 20 and 19 year old. 774 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,640 We are carrying above our weight so much. 775 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,000 So now we're finally like just like OK, we're going to be 776 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,840 finally hiring some people on because the products got into 777 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,520 the stage where it's like OK, we just need to figure out 778 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,440 regulations and stuff. But like in terms of pre-orders 779 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,280 from companies, we've been doing that in terms of from people. 780 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,080 We're going to be opening up the Kickstarter in February, so 781 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,440 we're sort of ramping up more and more social stuff now 782 00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:29,000 finally, because it's not so much wires and stuff. 783 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,800 So we've just opened all of that stuff up. 784 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,200 We have the no Discord now running with the Minecraft 785 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,520 server. I think one of the most fun 786 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,360 things is I've just started Twitch streaming and I can 787 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,240 actually map over the gloves to my hands and so I can be like an 788 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:45,040 anime character and move around, which is so fun because I can 789 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,520 play video games with my community. 790 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,320 We'll also make it making a video game peripheral startup, 791 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,080 which is founder market Fit. But yeah, so we're just starting 792 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,080 more and more on that and going through and we're going to get 793 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,920 all the like Youtubers to look at our stuff and everything 794 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,560 else. But it'll be around mid February 795 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,080 where that starts launching. And then we'll be pushing that 796 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,240 Kickstarter through and through and through. 797 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,720 We have another product that we'd want to be releasing around 798 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,480 like August next year, which would be. 799 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,360 Insanely game changing, but I can't say that one yet. 800 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,880 Fair enough. So what we're doing is 801 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,040 essentially we're releasing our first product is like validation 802 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,600 that we can make stuff. Because when you're some like 803 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,040 teenagers or young 20 year olds messing around, you don't even 804 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,440 have an engineering degree. Like you're just some tinkerer 805 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,600 at there. So you need to have some sort of 806 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,880 like proof that you can deliver. And so like we know that we can, 807 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,600 but we have to prove that and do all of our regulations and 808 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:39,920 stuff. So like we're doing the soft 809 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,280 launch of the first product and it's really nice because it 810 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,600 doesn't just operating in VR. So like, while we can do it for 811 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,160 that, we can also do it in like, you know, just simulations for 812 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:50,880 training companies where there's a lot more money. 813 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,320 But also robotics. If you've seen the boxing 814 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,000 matches in San Francisco and stuff like that with the robots, 815 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:00,000 you can pilot them with VR. And for me, I was like, if you 816 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,840 can properly curl your hands and feel the punch, holy crap, would 817 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,800 be that. That'd be awesome in a broader 818 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,400 zone because it means that you can get the initial capital and 819 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,240 you can get the reputations and everything that you need when 820 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,200 you're playing around with like less money. 821 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,440 And it's it's weird because I know I could get more, but it's 822 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,280 like it's just not worth it otherwise. 823 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,200 Yeah, yeah, it's it's like you have to play this weird social 824 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,240 game. If you look back at like again, 825 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:27,200 like the examples of a lot of these VR kick started things, 826 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,120 they have to do so many endorsements and stuff like that 827 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,600 before because it's such mops psychology. 828 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,320 Like at the end of the day, you're just giving someone a 829 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,400 product that they can enjoy, but you have to like prove that. 830 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,080 So like for me, we've gotten into Forbes, we've got the self 831 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,400 way, SW tech and innovation, People's Choice and we've done 832 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,200 all these things. Essentially it's and you have to 833 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,360 play the strategic game before you even launch something 834 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,080 because Kickstarter's and crowdfunding are decided before 835 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,200 you even launch a link. So you need to have all the 836 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,920 pre-orders and all of the things already in and then you need to 837 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,680 give them special deals so that the momentum keeps on going 838 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,360 because then the algorithm pushes you up. 839 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,280 So really like you say that you're launching A Kickstarter, 840 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,000 but you've been doing the Kickstarter for the last year, 841 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:03,920 right? Interesting. 842 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,000 So you know, what if it's? Going to succeed before you. 843 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,800 Launch it, you're looking at the numbers and you're like, all 844 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,080 right, cool. But like it's stuff like that 845 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,120 where it's like, you know, the world is really open to you. 846 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,160 Of course, don't be stupid, strategize, but like if you try 847 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,280 and you reach out to enough people and really go for it, 848 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,480 like it's open. Obviously I'm saying that with a 849 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,040 bit of money to live off of. So if anyone is watching this, 850 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,240 like if you are bootstrapping, make sure that you have a bit in 851 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,760 the bank. Yeah, like everything is 852 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,720 possible as long as you can feed yourself. 853 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,800 Well, it sounds like you have so much amazing. 854 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,160 Stuff on the horizon. I'm so excited to follow along. 855 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,960 Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much. 856 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,360 That is everything. From many tech scrolls today, I 857 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,720 hope you guys enjoyed the stories and I also hope you guys 858 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,320 enjoyed the interview. Lauren will speak to you guys 859 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,600 tomorrow and I guess I'll see you next week from our new 860 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,880 office. Thank you so much for listening. 861 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,400 Bye.