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Welcome to Touchgrass, a 
miniseries where I chat with 

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creatives about staying sane 
while being chronically online. 

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I'm your host, Lauren Meisner, 
and Touchgrass is a miniseries 

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brought to you by Britta, where 
we explore the implications of 

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being chronically online with 
creatives who can't escape it. 

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One thing that keeps coming up 
in these conversations is how 

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important small grounding 
routines are offline. 

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And for me, one of those 
routines is drinking enough 

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water. 
Whether I'm refilling my water 

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bottle before a long walk or 
taking a break from scrolling my

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For You page, Britta makes it 
easy for me to stay hydrated and

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grounded with pure, fresh 
tasting filtered water straight 

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from any tap. 
Thank you to Britta for 

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supporting independent media and
helping us take better care of 

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ourselves one refill at a time. 
Today I'm chatting with the 

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readers editor at Crikey and 
founder of feminist publication 

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Z Feed, Crystal Andrews. 
If you've listened to enough of 

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our podcast at Centennial World,
then you will be familiar with 

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Crystal. 
She is one of the most 

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chronically online people that I
know, and she's also one of my 

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closest friends. 
In our conversation, Crystal 

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talks about how she juggles an 
editor role while also building 

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her own media business, how 
complicated it feels to get 

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viral traction off bad news, and
what the future of journalism 

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looks like amid the rise of rage
bait content and AI slop. 

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Welcome Crystal to touch grass. 
Thank you for having me. 

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What a beautiful day to be 
outside touching grass in the 

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spirit of exactly what this 
series is about in Tasmania. 

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In Tasmania. 
As if this could not be a better

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advertisement. 
No, literally. 

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Sean, my husband and I flew into
Tassie last night. 

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We're staying with Crystal and 
her husband Pierre at their home

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in Hobart and it's so beautiful.
We literally picked the perfect 

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weekend and I'm so excited to 
chat with you about all things 

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being chronically online, mental
health, touching grass. 

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Let's do it. 
All right, so we ask everyone a 

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version of this question, but 
can you tell me, do you consider

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yourself I have chronically 
online? 

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Yes, I, I absolutely 
affirmatively do. 

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I think the interesting thing 
about being chronically online 

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is that you can be that in like 
very different spaces. 

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So like where I am the the 
spaces online that I spend my 

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time might be very different to 
the spaces that you spend your 

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time and like the next person. 
And sure, like there can be some

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over, like I know that we have a
very similar for you page a lot 

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of the time, but there are so 
many little like rabbit holes to

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go down and niches to get into. 
Their truly like something on 

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the Internet to capture anyone's
interest. 

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Like there's something to appeal
to anyone. 

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So yeah, I spent a lot of time, 
a lot of time online in various 

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arenas. 
Yes, OK, so I wanted to talk 

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about those various arenas 
because just like all of the 

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arenas online, your career has 
been in many arenas. 

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So you have been a media girly 
through and through. 

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I would say your career is truly
like the definition of a media 

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girly, but you have had so many 
different lives in media and 

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you've covered so many different
areas. 

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So can you give us a little 
rundown on your career? 

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Yeah, it it has actually been a 
bit of a journey. 

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And it's one of those things 
that you don't think about so 

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much until someone in this sort 
of situation ask you like, oh, 

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like, you know, where did you 
start? 

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Like what did you do? 
So I actually started in media a

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long time ago now in magazines. 
I worked for a magazine that was

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based in Perth called Box 
Magazine. 

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That was my first like gig 
outside of like straight out of 

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uni. 
And it was a really small team. 

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And so it was a great place to 
learn like everything about 

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producing a media like 
publication. 

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It was a magazine. 
This was like really just at the

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time where the digital like 
publishing space was starting to

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like kick off, especially in 
Australia. 

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Like that took a little bit 
longer to start happening here 

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than it did like in. 
It kicked off in the States 

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first early with like the likes 
of ICE and BuzzFeed, but that 

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took a little bit of time to 
filter down here. 

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So yeah, I started in like 
print. 

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I don't even think we didn't 
publish. 

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We actually didn't publish any 
of the articles to a website. 

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We actually got a website. 
I think like not long after I 

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was leaving, Oh my God, like 
right as I was leaving in 2016 

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or 2017 is when, yeah, this 
publication like just started to

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get a website and just started 
to put articles up on there. 

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So it really was a completely 
different time, a completely 

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different landscape. 
And that magazine also was like 

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luxury lifestyle, like fashion. 
It was so different to what I do

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now. 
It was not like Newsy. 

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It was not in the new space. 
Yeah, Yeah, at all. 

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So I started there and then from
there I went into digital 

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publishing. 
I worked at some women's or what

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we call in the business, women's
lifestyle titles, which is like 

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beauty, fashion, lifestyle, home
and interiors, that type of 

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thing. 
I worked at where, buddy? 

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I actually don't know if those 
sites are still around or in 

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what format. 
They're still around. 

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I don't think locally, but I 
think best ones, yes. 

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Yes, I worked at the Australian 
like outposts of those sites. 

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I had lost into the Daily Mail. 
I was at the Daily Mail during 

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like when COVID happened. 
So 2020 got made redundant got a

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nice juicy little redundancy 
package. 

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Thank you, DMA and used that 
money to like pour into my 

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little my little baby business Z
feed, which I've been doing now 

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since like earnestly since since
then, since 2020, which is a 

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completely, well, almost 
completely digital news like 

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analysis and commentary 
publication for young people, 

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but particularly, you know, 
left-leaning progressives, 

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feminists, whatever, whatever we
want to call ourselves on any 

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given day of the week. 
That's the perspective of that 

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publication. 
And I've been doing that now 

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since, yeah, since 2020. 
So like coming up to six years? 

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OK, so I wanted to talk about 
how you started Z Feed because 

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for context, actually how 
Crystal and I know each other is

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when Centennial launched, I 
think you just followed us. 

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Like I think there might have 
been like industry news or like 

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someone posted us maybe and you 
found us through that, like our 

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Instagram and we were like, oh, 
this is really cool. 

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And then we had you on the 
podcast and it was remotely 

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because this would. 
Have been this was during like 

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it was lockdowns. 
There was nowhere to go into 

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yes. 
Because I was going to say you 

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were living in Sydney at the 
time, but it was a remote 

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recording because it would have 
been during lockdowns. 

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So that's when we first had 
like, I guess not face to face 

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contact, but when we first 
started like actually speaking 

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frequently. 
And then we just got so close 

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over the last like four or five 
years. 

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I guess actually six years. 
That's actually a crazy thing to

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say. 
I can't believe it's been 6 

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years since 2020. 
That is the context of how we 

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know each other. 
But I wanted to hear cuz I don't

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know if we've ever talked about 
this. 

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Like what sparked you to start 
Sea Feed? 

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Yeah. 
So this, I think I started like 

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a little bit after you had 
initially started Centennial 

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World, which the people who've 
been around a long time will 

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know that it was called 
Renegade. 

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Oh, my God. 
No, the podcast was called 

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Renegade. 
I'm outing this now on the pod. 

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So yeah, this was like 
2018-2019. 

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You know, we've had like the 
digital publishinglikethe.com 

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news publication. 
Like, that is a very established

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thing at this point. 
But what was much, much newer, 

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especially for young audiences, 
was getting news and media on 

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social platforms. 
Like BuzzFeed had admittedly 

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been doing that for like, quite 
some time, time with Facebook 

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and like, you know, the iconic 
BuzzFeed quizzes, like being 

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shared around on Facebook pages 
and getting lots of traffic that

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way. 
But my sister is 10, young, 10 

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years younger than me. 
So I'm millennial and she's a 

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Gen. 
Z. 

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And she was starting to come to 
that age where she's like, 

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interested in news, interested 
in what's going on. 

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Like, obviously at that time, 
there was a lot of stuff going 

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on, like the end of 2019 as well
was the really bad Australian 

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bushfires in New South Wales. 
And that was like huge news. 

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And a lot of that was being 
shared on social media, like 

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about what was happening. 
Anyway, I'd had a discussion 

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with Chelsea and my sister, 
shout out to Chelsea about where

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she and her peers, like we're 
getting their news and 

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information. 
And she said to me, like, we get

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it on social media and we will 
see like something that 

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interests us and click on it and
click on the link and like read 

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that article online, which is 
completely fine. 

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There's nothing wrong with that.
But the interesting thing was, 

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is that they had no like they 
had no connection or loyalty is 

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not quite the right word, but 
like affiliation for what the 

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actual site. 
Right, like that was. 

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Publishing. 
Yeah. 

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So it would just like, come 
across your feed. 

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That could be from anywhere. 
And there was like no real 

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connection with like this is an 
article from the ABC or the 

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Sydney Morning Herald or like 
news.com dot AU or the Daily 

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Mail or even if it's like an 
Internet, you know, it's from 

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the BBC. 
Like there was very little 

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awareness of where that was 
coming from. 

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It's just like, this seems like 
an informative article. 

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I'll click the link because it's
come across my feed. 

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So at that time, it seemed to me
like, OK, this newer generation,

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there seems to be like some 
space where we can take that 

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news and directly publish it on 
the platform. 

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Not only that, but fill in a lot
of the blanks for like a younger

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generation. 
Like obviously if you're reading

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an article on the ABC or the 
BBC, you know, generally like 

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solid, trustworthy, established 
new sources. 

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There's nothing wrong with that.
But there was heaps of assumed 

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knowledge, like if it's a story 
about the attorney General, like

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that assumes that you know what 
an attorney general does, let 

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alone like who the current 
attorney general is. 

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And those little like bits and 
pieces of information were like 

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missing from the news at that 
time. 

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And it sounds silly almost to 
talk about now because explainer

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journalism now is like 
everybody, like everybody does 

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that. 
Big publications do it, small 

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publications do it. 
Like certainly now it is not, 

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it's not innovative. 
It's nothing new. 

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But at that time it like was 
pretty new. 

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So they started out as producing
these little like condensed and 

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not even explainers, but like 
providing some context around 

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what the biggest news story was 
that like week or that day or 

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whatever on Instagram was the 
was the focus at that time. 

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Again, does seem kind of obvious
and outdated now to say that, 

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but like that was really where 
the motion was. 

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And so that's why I started it. 
But it has evolved as a 

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publication so far from that now
because so much in the industry 

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has changed, not just the media 
industry, but like so much about

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online life, like so, so many 
platforms have popped up in that

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time. 
We're obviously now dealing with

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AI as well. 
So that's where it started, but 

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I wouldn't say that that's where
it is right now. 

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So where would you say it is 
right now? 

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So now it's much more what what 
we produce on Z feed is much 

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more commentary and analysis and
going context heavy on those 

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things. 
Everybody does explain us now. 

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But not only that, like now you 
can just get a fairly decent 

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explainer from an AI chat bot or
a Google summary. 

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Now, is that wrong a lot of the 
time, yeah. 

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But I think we're silly to 
pretend that that's always going

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to be the case. 
Like the more money that gets 

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invested in these things and the
more that like people, powerful 

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people in the tech industry are 
invested in making that a really

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good alternative source of 
information. 

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It's going to be pretty hard to 
compete with that. 

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Certainly as like a teeny tiny, 
like a micro publication in 

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Australia, It's hard to compete 
with that. 

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But what AI can't do is have an 
opinion. 

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What it can't do is like really 
properly analyze it can't 

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understand where it's audience 
is coming from, what their 

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perspective is and like bringing
them information that kind of 

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like matches what their 
perspective is and what the gaps

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00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,240
in their information in their 
knowledge might be. 

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So I think that's what we do 
right now. 

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00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,040
And then also in Australia, I 
mean, the mainstream media here 

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is has such a serious 
conservative lens. 

234
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,440
I mean, even through like big 
trustworthy news organizations 

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00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,520
like the ABC, there is like, 
I'll say centrist, like a 

236
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,160
centrist at best. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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You know, lens on on things. 
So Z feed is like unashamedly 

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feminist, intersectional, like 
everything we look at is through

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that lens. 
And we're, you know, out loud 

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and proud about that. 
So that might mean that some 

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people go, OK, well, I don't 
like what you're saying because 

242
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,840
you're looking at it through 
this lens and that I'm OK with 

243
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,640
that. 
It's not going to be for 

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00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,040
everyone. 
But the the difference is it's 

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00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,680
like at least I'm telling you, 
I'm saying we are looking at 

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this through a feminist lens. 
You can take that or leave that.

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00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,520
Other organizations will say 
when neutral, when not having 

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00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,400
like a bias on this, when not 
having a bent on this, but it's 

249
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,800
impossible to produce any kind 
of like a news or journalism 

250
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,520
that way. 
It's just, it's just simply not,

251
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,040
not possible. 
So yeah, that's where it is now.

252
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,040
Very, very different to like, 
who is the attorney general on 

253
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,360
Instagram in like 20, 2019. 
It's a very different place. 

254
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,800
No, I love it though. 
And that's just what this 

255
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,360
industry is all about. 
Like it's crazy to say that, you

256
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,160
know, six years ago, like we 
were so different to like Sean 

257
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,560
and I did a Patreon episode 
yesterday and we were talking 

258
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:49,080
about how when we started on 
TikTok, like he gave us the idea

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00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,000
to put our stories on TikTok. 
And I had not seen anyone do 

260
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,080
that up until that point. 
And this was 2019. 

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00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,360
So it was very early in Tik 
Tok's kind of journey, but 

262
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,560
regardless, and it sounded crazy
on the Patreon to say, I feel 

263
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:07,480
like Sean made-up that idea. 
He literally created this idea. 

264
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,360
He hadn't even crossed my mind. 
And it was only six years ago. 

265
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,640
Where are we gonna be in six 
years from now? 

266
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,360
It's. 
It moved honestly so quickly, 

267
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,360
even just from, you know, if we 
talk about a lot of youth 

268
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,880
publishing through the same 
period that we've been doing, 

269
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,600
this was like platform first. 
So it wasn't even necessarily a 

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00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,840
website or or even a sub stack, 
which again, wasn't true at that

271
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,280
point, but it was like a going 
to Instagram posting directly. 

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00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,240
Even on Instagram, it was 
static. 

273
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,120
It was like images and like the 
the classic Canva, like textile.

274
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,960
Then Tik Tok's rise and rise and
rise meant that there was such 

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00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,320
this big pivot to video, which 
is the second pivot to video 

276
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,880
that I have survived in my media
career. 

277
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,400
The first pivot to video was 
Facebook video. 

278
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,360
Oh yeah. 
We're not going to talk about. 

279
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,400
That's like that's a whole 
discussion and of itself. 

280
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,000
But TikTok, like it was a new 
way of producing that type of 

281
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,720
content. 
And also I think really 

282
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,080
solidified the person first, 
creator first, you know, mode of

283
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,480
disseminating journalism and 
information, which now again, 

284
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,200
like a lot of the big 
publications have taken on 

285
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:18,800
board. 
And I actually think is 

286
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,800
generally like a good, there are
some pitfalls, but I think it's 

287
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,840
a good thing. 
Like, I think you should know, 

288
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,680
Yeah, is giving you the news 
that they're giving you. 

289
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,720
So you can have a little bit of 
understanding of the 

290
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,400
circumstances around that. 
It's not all been good. 

291
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:33,880
Yeah, yeah. 
And it's really difficult, 

292
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,880
especially like as a smaller 
publication, it's really hard to

293
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,760
make good enough quality video 
content That's like what you've 

294
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,200
done so, so well is adapt to 
that. 

295
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,960
But it's not easy. 
You can't necessarily just like,

296
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,960
stick up a phone and start not 
recording videos. 

297
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,440
It's not that simple anymore. 
I know, but I mean to to 

298
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,480
properly adapt to video from 
podcast perspective and also a 

299
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,080
TikTok perspective. 
Like we had to get rid of so 

300
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,760
many ways that we published for 
me to actually be able to like 

301
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,440
make that work. 
It's so crazy. 

302
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,840
And I think, you know, starting 
a publication, even if we 

303
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,800
started, I don't know, five 
years before when we started 

304
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,000
ours, like we would have been 
publishing on a.com and like 

305
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,600
maybe on Facebook. 
And, you know, when we launched,

306
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,560
we already had to have 4 
platforms or whatever that we're

307
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:18,960
publishing. 
And now it's even more. 

308
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,840
It's so exhausting. 
It's impossible to keep up. 

309
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,680
And even like now, I still feel 
quite old school in this segment

310
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,000
of the industry because I, I am 
a writer. 

311
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,960
Like that is what I am. 
I remain true to the written 

312
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,840
word. 
And so, you know, whether that 

313
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,240
isn't like a print publication 
less and less so these days, but

314
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,200
like an article, sub stack or a 
blog post or something that is 

315
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,480
written. 
I maybe it's ill advised. 

316
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,840
You know, maybe we're all going 
to laugh at this in like 10 

317
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,800
years when it was, you know, 
just down downhill from me from 

318
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,840
from here. 
But I still think there needs to

319
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,480
be a lot of journalism and, you 
know, essays and analysis and 

320
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,720
opinion or whatever it may be in
the written form. 

321
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,120
Because the thing for me, 
especially with like online 

322
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,160
information, it's so important 
to be able to link where I got, 

323
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,680
if I'm making a claim, if I'm 
sourcing, like if I'm citing A 

324
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,000
statistic, if I'm citing even 
something that somebody else has

325
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,760
said, like I'm quoting it in my 
piece. 

326
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,240
I think it's really important to
be able to very easily link 

327
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,280
anyone who's reading it back 
through that source to see it 

328
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,040
for themselves. 
That is very, very important. 

329
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,200
And it is difficult to do with 
static imagery like Instagram 

330
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,320
captions don't link. 
Like it's just a little bit more

331
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,320
tricky to do. 
And in video, it's like, OK, 

332
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,840
well, I can put those in the 
caption and I can put those on 

333
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,760
the screen. 
Like, you know, we can do as 

334
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,560
much as we can, but copying, 
pasting and that taking that 

335
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,680
information into a search engine
to go and like verify it is just

336
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,320
not that easy for the person 
who's reading it or consuming it

337
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,440
or watching it or whatever. 
There's still something 

338
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,840
beautifully simple, simple to me
about like that is the number 

339
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,840
that she cited. 
She said it was from here. 

340
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,720
I'm going to click the link and 
see it for myself. 

341
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,440
And I think it is really, really
important to preserve that as 

342
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,400
much as we as we can. 
So I'm old school about it. 

343
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,480
Even in the video, even in the 
video journalism era, I still 

344
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,960
think we need to write some shit
down, guys. 

345
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,400
Well, I don't think that's even 
a hot take. 

346
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,880
Like, I think that's why Sub 
Stack has become so popular, 

347
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,000
partly because of that, right? 
And also I think video fatigue 

348
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,119
has really helped with the rise 
of platforms like Sub Stack and 

349
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,160
newsletters and all of that. 
OK. 

350
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,440
So I wanted to talk to you about
a topic we discuss here and 

351
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,560
there in our friendship offline 
about kind of the friction that 

352
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:39,080
we can feel finding growth or 
success even in a single piece 

353
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,640
of content, but sometimes off 
the back of someone else's 

354
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,920
misfortune. 
So can you talk to me about how 

355
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,200
you reconcile with that? 
Because obviously covering the 

356
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,440
topics that you cover, politics,
commentary, women's issues, race

357
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,480
issues, I'm sure you feel that. 
Often, yeah, it is like, can be 

358
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,280
a really horrible business to be
in because all day, every day 

359
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,280
you are learning about awful 
circumstances that people are 

360
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,920
in. 
And that can be the important 

361
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,120
stuff. 
It's, it's important to shine 

362
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,560
light on these things and make 
sure that doesn't slip under the

363
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,120
radar. 
But yeah, it's tough to be in 

364
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,360
that immersed in that all the 
time. 

365
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:20,280
And I think that trying to do 
that as like thoughtfully and 

366
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,520
carefully and ethically as 
possible has always been really 

367
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,000
important to me because, like, 
why I do this is I'm interested,

368
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,480
I'm curious, I'm interested in 
people, why things are the way 

369
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,680
they are, like how we all live 
our lives. 

370
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,480
There can be a tendency at the 
moment to go kind of like 

371
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,080
crashing and bashing into these 
issues and like trying to, you 

372
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,760
know, stick your flag in the 
ground and stake a claim and 

373
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,680
like own an issue, you know, an 
issue of like injustice or, you 

374
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,920
know, someone being done wrong 
by or some sort of scandal. 

375
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,400
That's not really how I like to 
approach it. 

376
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,280
Like there's been mental health 
benefits to me for that to not 

377
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,040
feel like I have to rush into 
things really quickly and like 

378
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,640
claim my space. 
And also I think people really 

379
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,120
respect that I don't do that, 
that safe feed doesn't do that, 

380
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,200
that we take out time with 
things because it a lot of it is

381
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,520
so just like big and heavy. 
You can't always just like a run

382
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,000
into it head 1st and especially 
again, being like so small 

383
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,360
limited resources, like, you 
know, I'm not trying to compete 

384
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:21,680
with big mainstream 
publications. 

385
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,400
And so why would I try to run 
head first into it like they 

386
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,560
like they can because they're 
better equipped to do that. 

387
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,080
But sometimes I think there's a 
tendency when when we're talking

388
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,360
about an issue where something 
bad and injustice has happened 

389
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,400
to a specific person or a 
specific group of people. 

390
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,160
And you know, you'll see it like
online on social platforms, like

391
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,200
people will want to really run 
in there and in like a, a way of

392
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,920
wanting to do good. 
They're like, they want to go in

393
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,080
and stand up and like, make a 
statement, have their take on 

394
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,480
it. 
Like discussion about all these 

395
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,960
things are good. 
But the thing that really 

396
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,680
strikes me is like when they 
don't first reach out to like 

397
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,600
the person who it happened to or
the group who it happened to. 

398
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,600
Just this week, I'm not sure 
when this episode will be out, 

399
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,000
but like just this week, we've 
had a big new story in Australia

400
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,280
where the Prime Minister has 
said something really horrible 

401
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,400
about Grace Tame, who's a, you 
know, a famous advocate, 

402
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,400
activist, a really inspiring 
woman, former Australian of the 

403
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,080
year. 
And there's been like a lot of 

404
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,280
news around that, a lot of 
people having takes about that, 

405
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,080
you know, like it is part of the
discourse and I will be 

406
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,440
publishing something about that 
on Z feed, but core to that. 

407
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,040
And before I'm going to write 
about that, crucial to that was 

408
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,720
reaching out to her and being 
like, hey, letting you know I'm 

409
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960
going to be writing about this 
also, like some questions of 

410
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,720
clarification is like a 
journalistic practice that you 

411
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,520
learn when you do come up 
through these mainstream 

412
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,560
publications, like you need to 
go to people for comment. 

413
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,080
You need to like reach out and 
let people know that you're 

414
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,560
going to be like weighing in on 
this. 

415
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,720
I think that has been a practice
that is not always it's, it's 

416
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,040
not so common all the time, but 
it's something that I'm going to

417
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,760
stick to. 
And I think is what has made our

418
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,600
stuff a little bit more, yeah, a
little bit more thoughtful and 

419
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,200
careful about who we're, you 
know, who we're talking about 

420
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,960
and the way that that we are 
talking about them. 

421
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,520
And that's not saying formal 
training is the be all and end 

422
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,200
all. 
Like I'm not. 

423
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,560
There are loads of very 
unethical journalists who work 

424
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,560
for big publications. 
Like that is by no means to say 

425
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,440
that you that there aren't heaps
of news creators and news 

426
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,920
influencers And also just like 
people who are, you know, who 

427
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,800
are in these communities having 
their say that aren't doing it 

428
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,440
correctly. 
Like I think there is a lot of 

429
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,560
care out there and that's the 
stuff that I tend to gravitate 

430
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,600
towards where you can see that 
there's been like an effort and 

431
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,640
some consideration and that's 
been part of the process, yeah. 

432
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,920
OK, something that I feel like 
is unique about you is no matter

433
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,040
how immersed in this space you 
are, it seems like you never 

434
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,480
lose your passion for it. 
So on top of Z feed, you're also

435
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,760
readers editor at Crikey. 
And the fact that you can do 

436
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,280
basically 2 journalism jobs at 
once is so impressive to me. 

437
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:55,800
Thank you. 
That's very kind. 

438
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,320
It must take such, I imagine for
me at least, it would take a 

439
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,480
huge toll and it would lead me, 
I believe, to lose a lot of that

440
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,960
spark. 
So how do you keep that passion 

441
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,320
for what you're doing? 
I don't think my answer to this 

442
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,720
is going to be particularly 
satisfying, but I just love it. 

443
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:19,480
Like I just, it is hard for me 
to not to, to switch off from 

444
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,480
following the news and like what
is going on and feeling like I 

445
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,280
have my finger on the pulse. 
Like we, my husband and I went 

446
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,600
away on a holiday at the end of 
the year, right after, right 

447
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,320
after Christmas and we'd spent 
Christmas with my family and 

448
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,360
everyone was like, you need to 
switch off. 

449
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,920
Everyone's like, it was like an 
intervention. 

450
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,240
They were telling me off. 
They're like, you need to just 

451
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,800
log off, disconnect. 
You need to just take this time.

452
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,400
We're going on quite a long 
holiday as well. 

453
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,320
It was like three weeks away and
that probably doesn't sound that

454
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,120
long, but that's long. 
Oh. 

455
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,480
It's long, yeah. 
You know, it's a long holiday, 

456
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,360
overseas holiday. 
They're like, you need to switch

457
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:54,920
off. 
You need to not look at the 

458
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,160
news. 
And they were like to my 

459
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,680
husband, don't let her look at 
the news. 

460
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,160
And he was like policing me 
every day. 

461
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,320
He's like, don't look at it. 
You're going to you're going to 

462
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,040
be in a bad mood, you're going 
to ruin your day. 

463
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,440
And look, I did very much stay 
offline as much as I could at 

464
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,480
that time. 
And I did feel like great for 

465
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,920
it. 
But I think that just speaks to 

466
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,360
like how much I want to know. 
I'm just curious. 

467
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,760
I like to know why things 
happen. 

468
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,160
It's like I think that's what it
is. 

469
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,800
It's not just about, oh, this is
happening and what is happening.

470
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,440
It's not the news of the day 
now, now, now, minute to minute 

471
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,720
to minute. 
But I like to know why things 

472
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,440
are happening. 
I think about history a lot and 

473
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,920
like how these cycles repeat. 
This is sounding so weird, but 

474
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,680
it's like when you're in it and 
you're feeling the rhythms and 

475
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,720
you can see where things go. 
And it all helps to have an 

476
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,040
understanding about the world 
that we're in. 

477
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,040
And I would like to think that 
I'm having a positive impact on 

478
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,040
the world with the work that I 
produce. 

479
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,760
And that obviously means if you 
think you're having a positive 

480
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,520
impact, you you want to make 
more of it. 

481
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,280
So that's kind of what keeps me 
in it, but I don't know that 

482
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,280
that's like a particularly 
useful answer. 

483
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,800
I feel like the answer there is 
you. 

484
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,720
I mean, it's so core to who you 
are. 

485
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,280
Yeah, it is. 
It is. 

486
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,440
It's like there's been times 
when I've dabbled in, like, 

487
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,680
trying to get out and do 
something else and I just can't.

488
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,600
I just can't. 
I just can't do it. 

489
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,600
I know this is getting 
dangerously close to that 

490
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,560
bullshit of like, do what you 
love and you'll never work it 

491
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,720
out in your life. 
And I want to be clear, it is 

492
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,400
work. 
Like, it's not that it doesn't 

493
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,800
feel like work. 
It fucking feels like work every

494
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,480
second of the day. 
It's just, I'm just curious. 

495
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,880
Yeah. 
I just want to know what is 

496
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,160
going on. 
Yeah, you were born for this 

497
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,480
industry. 
I think so. 

498
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,960
I think so. 
I knew I wanted to be a 

499
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,680
journalist when I was like in 
high school. 

500
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,760
That's just all I ever really 
wanted to do. 

501
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,880
And then I started doing it and 
my career now looks like totally

502
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,240
different to what I imagined you
would look at that at that time.

503
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,960
Like, it's not, it's not like I 
brought to life the vision I had

504
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,520
when I was 16. 
But I mean, it's pretty cool. 

505
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,520
Yeah, it's a very cool career. 
So something else that I feel 

506
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,840
like you are acutely plugged 
into is the culture of 

507
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,560
inflammatory content online. 
Given the spaces that you 

508
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,200
reported, can you tell me how 
you feel the rise in rage bait 

509
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,120
is influencing journalism? 
It's currency, like rage bait is

510
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,240
currency. 
We do definitely live in like an

511
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,480
outrage culture right now. 
And it's coming from all this is

512
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,840
like something I think that 
often gets characterized as 

513
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,200
being of like a, a feature or 
function of content from the the

514
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,760
new right to the alt right or, 
you know, those kind of spaces. 

515
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,160
But it really is across the 
board. 

516
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,240
And I think it's because like 
that is what grabs people's 

517
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,720
attention. 
Attention is currency with this 

518
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,080
is like friggin cliche bingo, 
but it grabs people's attention.

519
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,680
It's become like a new hook. 
I think to say something 

520
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,840
contrarian is like really the 
spirit that it's in. 

521
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,520
It's like, I'm going to say 
something that most people would

522
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,680
disagree with to get them to 
listen to what I'm saying, to 

523
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,160
interact with my platform for 
the sake of it. 

524
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,360
Just to have like size, just to 
have numbers. 

525
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,480
I don't think there's always 
necessarily even an interest in 

526
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,440
a broader layer of discourse. 
It just is, you know, that's the

527
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,000
way to like get yourself seen, 
whether you have ambitions to be

528
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,000
like a journalist or whether you
have ambitions to be like a 

529
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,600
different type of creator or 
voice online or just like known 

530
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,800
people also just like to be seen
and heard. 

531
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,400
So yeah, it's, it's everywhere. 
And I find it really exhausting.

532
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,360
I don't know about you. 
I don't know if it's just like 

533
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,120
we're hitting really peak rage 
culture right now and like rage 

534
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,600
based rage based content, like 
saturation, it's just 

535
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,360
everywhere. 
It's like doesn't matter what 

536
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:40,880
you're into. 
Like, obviously it happens in 

537
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,320
the new space A lot. 
And like people talking about 

538
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,120
politics, like those things are 
quite natural. 

539
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,480
But even like entertainment, pop
culture, beauty, fashion, 

540
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,120
discourse, like any community 
that you're into, it seems 

541
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,360
there, there are these people 
who have an impulse to make 

542
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,640
contrarian takes, put it out 
there and just like, you know, 

543
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,880
set, set the match, like the 
match, throw it on, throw it on 

544
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,520
the haystack and just watch the 
flames go up. 

545
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,400
Sometimes I feel like people do 
it as well, not just to be 

546
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,080
contrarian for attention, but 
also to feed their ego. 

547
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,240
I feel like everybody is 
constantly looking for the right

548
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,840
take. 
They want to have that hot take 

549
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,640
that everyone says, Oh my God, 
you're so smart. 

550
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,280
Like, I never thought of it like
that. 

551
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,360
And now we're all going to make 
think pieces off the back of 

552
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,400
your think piece. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

553
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,920
OK. 
So how would you say that it's 

554
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,360
impacting audiences? 
I don't think it's good for 

555
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:31,080
anybody. 
I think it's like really bad. 

556
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,000
It's like training our brains to
look for that and have that 

557
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,760
reaction. 
I think you can feel it when 

558
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,160
the, when they're like the take 
or the content is reactionary 

559
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,560
for the sake of it. 
And it's not kind of like 

560
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,400
genuine. 
There's like a kind of holiness 

561
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,800
to it. 
It makes me feel uncomfortable. 

562
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,120
Yeah, yeah. 
You know, like it's not. 

563
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,040
I don't think it's good for 
anyone to exist in this like 

564
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,840
constant state of being like 
activated and enraged is 

565
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,840
probably too strong of a word. 
But like always reacting to 

566
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,640
something like every single 
thing that you see is like 

567
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,040
trying to provoke something 
emotional from you. 

568
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,560
I don't think that's very 
healthy. 

569
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,080
And I think that it then dulls 
when there is something really, 

570
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,840
really serious and really 
important that does deserve a 

571
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,160
strong reaction from, you know, 
from the public, from us, from 

572
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,160
from us as like human beings. 
Because everything is like at 

573
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,000
this level of like 8-9 or ten, 
the things that do deserve that 

574
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,800
get like, they just become the 
same as everything else. 

575
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,400
And so I feel like it's almost 
dulling people's ability to 

576
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,240
perceive like what is really 
worth their time and attention 

577
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,360
and their emotional investment 
and what is just activating them

578
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,520
for like no real purpose other 
than numbers in an algorithm. 

579
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,840
It's a very odd feeling. 
I feel like the Epstein files 

580
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,480
stuff is a good indicator of 
that, not us getting into C 

581
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,720
files on A on a touch cross. 
You're not the first. 

582
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:06,080
But because of the volume of 
just like horrific revelations 

583
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:11,400
in that and just how much the 
conspiracy theories around that 

584
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720
like seem to be validated and 
like, yeah, they're really, I 

585
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,840
mean, yes, not to not to get 
into it, but it's like, yeah, it

586
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,040
was real. 
It was happening. 

587
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,280
And every story that comes out 
of it is like more and more 

588
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,200
horrible than the next, which 
almost LED some people, I think 

589
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,120
to go digging for like further 
level of conspiracy where there 

590
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,880
it's like all there for us 
already. 

591
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,080
What's happened is awful enough 
already that some people I think

592
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,960
are looking for another level of
like, but what if it was even 

593
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,240
more more awful for that? 
Like, as if the abuse of these 

594
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,520
vulnerable young girls and 
women, it was like, not enough 

595
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,400
in some way. 
I don't know if that's a good 

596
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,640
way of explaining it, but to me 
that that's just something where

597
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,480
it's like you're. 
So you're just hit with so many 

598
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,480
awful things at once. 
Yeah. 

599
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,040
None of them kind of seem that 
bad. 

600
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440
And some people go looking for 
them something like even worse. 

601
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,280
Yeah, No, I, I talked about 
that. 

602
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,360
I mean, it was in relation to 
the Selena Gomez like conspiracy

603
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,120
theories that are happening on 
TikTok right now. 

604
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,720
And I brought up the Epstein 
files. 

605
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,360
You know, why are people 
believing these Selena Gomez 

606
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,560
conspiracy theories? 
And people are, and these are 

607
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,760
like grown adults that are 
believing these conspiracy 

608
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,720
theories and they're so 
outlandish. 

609
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,920
And that was, you know, one of 
the examples I gave, just one of

610
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:30,400
my theories is I think over the 
past, maybe like 10 to 20 years,

611
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,400
a lot of the quote UN quote 
conspiracy theories that we've 

612
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,440
seen with like elites, let's 
say, that felt so outlandish. 

613
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,400
They started to be validated. 
And Epstein files is an example 

614
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,800
of that. 
So then it makes people be like,

615
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,000
OK, well now there's got to be 
conspiracies everywhere. 

616
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,560
You. 
Know there's also another aspect

617
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,440
of like, I mean, I'm not, I'm 
not, I'm a journalist, I'm not 

618
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,000
an activist. 
But I think with a lot of the 

619
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,720
political discourse online and 
it's like tendency to, to kind 

620
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,000
of like devolve into rage baby 
type content, which is meant to 

621
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,280
spark like engagement with other
people online. 

622
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,160
And that can sometimes spin into
like personal, like conflicts 

623
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,960
that are fully played out 
online. 

624
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080
I also think there's something 
to be said for like, it's easy 

625
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,120
to forget that is very much 
happening in an online space. 

626
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,640
That is not to say that online 
advocacy isn't important and 

627
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,120
can't be impactful. 
It absolutely, it absolutely is.

628
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,080
And we have so much to thank 
that has come from online 

629
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,080
activists, especially on global 
issues, which we otherwise like 

630
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,600
it may not have known about at 
all. 

631
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,160
But I do think there's something
to be said for like this type of

632
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,800
hyper engaging rage bait content
keeps you locked in the online 

633
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,000
space. 
And it's really easy to forget 

634
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,200
that like that is not actually 
the only place or even maybe the

635
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,080
primary place where we want 
things to change. 

636
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,680
It is the material world where 
we actually need to make some of

637
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,320
those changes. 
Even if people are wanting to 

638
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,200
make changes to online 
platforms, it's like you, you 

639
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,480
can't only do that by talking 
about it online or getting into 

640
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,440
like back and forth, like 
stitching wars with other people

641
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,720
online. 
There is a different layer of 

642
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,280
like activism and advocacy that 
still has to happen. 

643
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,320
And I think that's what it takes
away from us as well. 

644
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,400
It's like it, it kind of makes 
you forget where the priorities 

645
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,800
should be because there is just 
something so addictive about 

646
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,480
like watching two people go back
and forth with each other, you 

647
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,400
know, getting into the minutiae 
of like who said this and who 

648
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,920
said that? 
And then another third party 

649
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,600
jumps in like, but that is all 
that can be very unproductive 

650
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,320
and just so siloed where it's 
like sometimes it's only 

651
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,960
happening on one platform. 
It's like it's only happening on

652
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,080
TikTok and the people on 
Instagram don't even know that 

653
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,680
this is happening. 
And people on YouTube like don't

654
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,440
even know this is happening. 
So that's another thing. 

655
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,160
I think we're losing touch. 
We're losing touch a little bit 

656
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,840
with the online base. 
We are losing touch. 

657
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,840
I also think there's probably 
something to be said for doing 

658
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,680
quote, UN quote online activism 
or getting involved in online 

659
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,120
discourse like that and getting 
essentially the positive 

660
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,160
reinforcement, the dopamine hit 
from that, that like, let's all 

661
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,240
be honest, if you're doing, 
whether it's activism online, 

662
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,360
offline, a lot of it comes back 
to, you know, like you're doing 

663
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600
it for from the goodness of your
heart, hopefully, but also 

664
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,360
because it makes you feel good, 
right? 

665
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,560
And you get probably a lot of us
probably get that same similar 

666
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,960
hit when you're doing it all, 
like within the TikTok comments 

667
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200
and you feel like I'm validated 
people are agreeing with me. 

668
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,600
So look, I'm making a 
difference. 

669
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,200
But that's actually, like you 
said, it's in such an enclosed 

670
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,560
small ecosystem that it's really
not making as much of an impact 

671
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,880
as we probably feel it is. 
And it's also not particularly 

672
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,920
intergenerational or the 
communities online tend to be 

673
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,200
very much like Gen. 
Z, millennials, yeah, some Gen. 

674
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,080
X, like some boomers. 
More alphas in the comments than

675
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
I think people realize. 
Like that is like my, I think if

676
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,920
I was to have, if I was to be 
able to get some government 

677
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,360
money to have like a public 
service that's been ad that runs

678
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,720
like across all like television,
radio, billboards everywhere. 

679
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,560
It would be something along the 
lines of like stop, like think 

680
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,840
twice before you argue with 
someone in the comments because 

681
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,440
that person might be 16. 
And you as like someone you 

682
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,320
know, who's like 28 might be 
going back and forth with like, 

683
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,719
yeah, a 16 year old, which is 
not something that I like to 

684
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,400
think most of us would opt to do
in real life. 

685
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,440
You know, that's not something I
I spend my time doing or even 

686
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,400
thinking about. 
So yeah, it can really lack like

687
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,080
if you're just talking to a lot 
of the same people, I think it 

688
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,239
can lack like that broader 
context of who we all are in the

689
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,239
world and in the society and who
is getting information from 

690
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,400
where. 
Like when I talk to my parents, 

691
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,480
like I don't live in the same 
city as my parents. 

692
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,560
So I talked to them once a week.
We have like quite a long phone 

693
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,400
call and it's like to try and 
explain when they ask, they're 

694
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,520
like, oh, like what happened 
this week? 

695
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,440
Like what was what was big? 
What was news? 

696
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,800
And sometimes it's like, well, I
spent a lot of time thinking 

697
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,800
about this thing, but I actually
even know where to begin to 

698
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,640
explain to you who these people 
are like what this was really 

699
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,600
about. 
And it is important. 

700
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,600
Like the thing was important, 
but I actually can't even get 

701
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,880
into it with you because you 
just we have to do too much 

702
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,120
background. 
Maybe I should maybe I need to 

703
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,840
do now the reverse context thing
that was originally for Jen says

704
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,000
we now need to do it for like 
boomers to help them understand 

705
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,640
the context of online life. 
Yes, maybe that's that's missing

706
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:27,760
venture. 
Yes, that's. 

707
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:28,920
Missing. 
Wait. 

708
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,600
I love that. 
I actually think a lot of young 

709
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,080
people would appreciate that 
from you. 

710
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:34,840
Yeah. 
So that they think about it. 

711
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,520
Their parents. 
OK, so being a woman who is so 

712
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,440
visible online in both of your 
respective, I guess, positions 

713
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,840
both at Crikey and Z feed, how 
do you handle the criticism? 

714
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,680
How do you handle being visible 
online and covering topics that 

715
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,040
are sensitive? 
It is like a very much an 

716
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,760
ongoing work in progress. 
Like I'm sensitive. 

717
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,200
I'm a very sensitive person. 
I take everything to like a way 

718
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,600
to personally, I buy all rights 
should not be saying anything 

719
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,440
online. 
I should not be saying anything 

720
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,200
in public because I take it all 
like quite personally. 

721
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,960
But I'm getting better all the 
time at just blowing things off.

722
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,360
I think there is something 
within my personality because 

723
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,320
I'm curious about what drives 
other people. 

724
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,440
And that's what makes this job, 
like feel just so perfect for me

725
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,640
and why I love doing it. 
But it also means you like 

726
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,280
really badly want to be 
understood. 

727
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,080
So I've had to really work at 
when people do misunderstand and

728
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,040
it's inevitable. 
Like that's just life, but you 

729
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,840
know, when they'll respond to 
something that I've written or a

730
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,920
video I've made or a podcast 
that I've done and 

731
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,160
misinterpreted or misunderstood 
a statement and then got like 

732
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,160
mad at me for that or like, you 
know, this was like a bad take 

733
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,320
because of XYZ. 
Resisting the urge to get in 

734
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,560
there and explain back I think 
has been a journey. 

735
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,280
I used to do that too much. 
I don't do it anymore. 

736
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,360
I have still have to resist the 
urge to do it, but I don't do it

737
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,960
because that's just not a good 
use of my time that it is. 

738
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,400
It's rough. 
And also, I think being a woman 

739
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,040
online, I mean, I can't speak 
for the experience of men who 

740
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,280
are very visible online. 
I also like worry more about my 

741
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,680
appearance than I would like to.
I I think in my day-to-day life 

742
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,360
offline, I don't worry that much
about how I look. 

743
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,760
But as soon as there's like a 
camera and as soon as you're 

744
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,600
seeing your own face all of the 
time on like all of these 

745
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,080
screens, it can be really 
confronting. 

746
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,080
Yeah, 100%. 
When like I'm with my friends 

747
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,720
and, you know, you're having a 
bit of like down time and 

748
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,320
someone will like in a scroll, 
then like when you hear, I hear 

749
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,440
my own voice coming from their 
phone and see my own face. 

750
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,480
That is very disconcerting. 
Yeah, I don't like that. 

751
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,240
Don't scroll near me. 
No, I find I actually, because 

752
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,280
when you're filming yourself so 
much, you can control the 

753
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,320
lighting, the angles. 
And I find it really confronting

754
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,880
when I just take a casual photo 
with a friend or something and 

755
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,480
it's like a an angle that I 
don't normally feel myself at or

756
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,560
I don't look at myself. 
And I'm like, Oh my God. 

757
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,520
And like I have an image of what
I look like in my head, not from

758
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,160
the mirror anymore, but from the
camera. 

759
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,840
Yeah, yeah. 
It's so bizarre. 

760
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,160
It's very, it's a very strange 
experience. 

761
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,240
And I think also, you know, 
talking about politics, talking 

762
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:22,120
about sensitive issues, talking 
about injustices, talking about 

763
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,440
the government online. 
I mean, it's a fact. 

764
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,200
Men get a lot less criticism for
doing that. 

765
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,720
And also men get a lot less, not
0, but a lot less critiques of 

766
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,640
their appearance while they're 
doing that, like completely 

767
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,360
unrelated to the things that 
they are saying. 

768
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:40,920
So that's just like hard to deal
with. 

769
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,280
It's just a lesson in like 
getting in the comments enough 

770
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,480
to take the temperature of the 
thing that you've put out there.

771
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,880
And I do think that's really 
important. 

772
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,400
I would never ever advocate for 
not looking at the comments at 

773
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,680
all because like you need some 
feedback. 

774
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,000
Like you do need to, you do need
to have an understanding of how 

775
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,320
things are being received and 
like who what you're putting out

776
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,840
there is resonating with. 
But you know, it's you need just

777
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,880
enough to get the feedback and 
then move on. 

778
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,000
But it's like a lifelong 
process, I think. 

779
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,840
Yeah, and it's harder and harder
when platforms hide comments for

780
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,640
some people and not others and 
they do all these weird things 

781
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,200
with the filters and you even if
you haven't put the filters on, 

782
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,680
it's so. 
Confusing. 

783
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,480
Yeah. 
I mean, This is why I think we 

784
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,200
kind of like vaguely touched on 
this, but the push for like the 

785
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,960
resurgence of newsletters, I 
think is in large part been 

786
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,680
because the engagement like 
hacking experience of the other 

787
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,920
digital platforms has been like 
quite fatiguing. 

788
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,640
So that's why a lot of people 
have gone back to like writing 

789
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,400
things in a newsletter form and 
like sending that directly to 

790
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,360
the people who want to hear. 
I mean, there are still a lot of

791
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,200
frustrations with like deliver 
things around deliverability and

792
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,480
it even not getting to the 
people who say they want to see 

793
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,840
it. 
But I put a lot of stock in the 

794
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,600
people who'll take the time to 
e-mail me about something or 

795
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,920
like, go out of the way to find 
a contact detail and, like, 

796
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,360
e-mail some feedback that hasn't
always been like, that's not 

797
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,320
just compliments. 
Like sometimes people will be 

798
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,440
like, hey, I saw that thing that
you wrote. 

799
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,200
Like, I think that you should 
consider, yeah, this like, I 

800
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,720
don't think you paid enough 
attention to, like, this aspect 

801
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:14,240
of it. 
I still think that's quite 

802
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:16,400
valuable because there's like 
some more effort I think that 

803
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,320
has been gone into. 
Delivering that message. 

804
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,000
And so far, this is not true for
everybody, but so far I have 

805
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:29,440
found e-mail feedback a lot less
aggressive, much less trolling, 

806
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,320
like a lot less of the toxic 
stuff that makes you not want to

807
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:33,880
hear from anyone else. 
That's always worth in the 

808
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,280
comments. 
But having said that, that's 

809
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,600
just only been my experience. 
I know a lot of people get 

810
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,360
really awful e-mail, really 
awful e-mail feedback. 

811
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,560
Yeah, a lot of female 
journalists. 

812
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,040
I know a lot of female 
journalists I know who are not 

813
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,320
white get get horrific feedback.
And I think it's to do with the 

814
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,480
size of the platform as well. 
Like, yeah, you know, when 

815
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,880
you're in a really big outlet 
and it's going out to, you know,

816
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,120
millions of people, it's sad. 
It's really, really sad to say, 

817
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,520
but it just comes with the 
territory. 

818
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,480
Yeah, so having essentially 2 
full time careers, the code 

819
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,240
switch between Crikey Z feed and
maybe even just like your 

820
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,680
personal life. 
Yeah, it is tricky. 

821
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,560
I think I've been very fortunate
that or not fortunate it. 

822
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,240
It is also by design that the 
audience of Z Feed and the 

823
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,960
audience of Crikey, which if 
people don't know is an 

824
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,760
independent news organization in
Australia. 

825
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,440
Actually, it's Crikey's 26th 
birthday as we're recording this

826
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,960
month. 
So they've been at this since 

827
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,440
the year 2000. 
Wow. 

828
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,280
Which is like really, I think in
the independent space, like 

829
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Incredible also started as a 
newsletter, I believe. 

830
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,400
So crazy that newsletters are 
back, literally. 

831
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,640
But the audiences for those two 
publications are quite 

832
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,520
different. 
So even though the topics and 

833
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,640
the like, the material is a lot 
of the times it's very similar. 

834
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,080
Like there's a focus on 
Australian and international 

835
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,800
politics and social issues and 
that type of thing because 

836
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,440
they're talking to two different
groups of people. 

837
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,760
That helps because I can go into
like Crikey mode when I'm doing 

838
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,880
Crikey stuff and then I can go 
into the Z feed mode when I'm 

839
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,720
doing Z feed stuff. 
Z feed is very much like young 

840
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,920
feminist women and just 
feminists in general, but like 

841
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,000
really heavily skews kind of 
like young women. 

842
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,120
And so I feel like I can have a 
little bit more like of my own 

843
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,680
personality in that and speak a 
little bit more colloquially, 

844
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,240
even in the newsletters that I 
write. 

845
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,760
Like it doesn't always need to 
be so like, you know, news 

846
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,480
voicy, like I don't think I have
a great news voice anyway, but 

847
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:27,640
it doesn't need to be so 
straight. 

848
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:31,560
So that helps kind of like 
creating that divide. 

849
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,000
I think the other thing that has
helped me more than I thought it

850
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,680
would is taking like the, the 
parts that you learn from 

851
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,760
working in one place to the 
other and vice versa. 

852
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,080
Like with Crikey, I'm working 
with a bigger team of people who

853
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,800
are all different from different
backgrounds. 

854
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,720
Like some of them have been in 
the industry like a really, 

855
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,120
really long time. 
And so I learned so much there 

856
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,000
as well that I'm able to like 
put into Z feed. 

857
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,160
And then part of what I've been 
doing for Crikey as well is like

858
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,160
bringing them more onto these 
platforms, like trying to grow a

859
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,320
little bit more of a youth 
audience who are interested in 

860
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,960
the same type of topics. 
So I'm taking what I've like 

861
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,160
built at Z Feed and the skills 
that I have there like to that 

862
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,720
other workplace as well. 
So it's kind of like you're 

863
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,360
taking one thing over and then 
you like put that down and pick 

864
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,680
up something over here and bring
it over. 

865
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,400
I don't know it. 
Kind of compliments. 

866
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Yeah, each other. 
You feel like you're learning 

867
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,200
and there's enough difference 
that it doesn't feel like the 

868
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,240
one job yet, like, all of the 
time. 

869
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:32,480
I am really proud about what I 
published in both places. 

870
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,040
I do think it would be hard if 
if I had a day job where it was 

871
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,120
like, I'm really not, like, 
stoked about promoting this. 

872
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,920
You know what I mean? 
Like, yeah, because I'm really 

873
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,480
proud of what I do regardless. 
I think it takes less of a toll.

874
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,080
OK, well then, but I don't 
advise. 

875
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,200
I don't advise again. 
All of this is like stuff. 

876
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,240
That I do is very hypocritical. 
It's like these are all the 

877
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:53,080
things that I do that I would 
not recommend other people to 

878
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,960
do, so I'm not sure if I'm the 
best guess. 

879
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,120
Yeah. 
Well, that's why I wanted to ask

880
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,480
you final question. 
How do you touch grass then? 

881
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,480
It does not happen as much as it
should. 

882
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,400
As I said, there are times when 
interventions are staged. 

883
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,200
But one thing I do really like 
to do, we have a record player 

884
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,360
at at home and quite a little 
like growing collection of 

885
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,680
records now. 
So it's really nice whether it's

886
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,640
like even like a weeknight 
evening or on the weekends or 

887
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,680
just whenever really to put on a
record because you have to 

888
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,800
listen to that thing in order 
like beginning to end one side, 

889
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,640
flip it over beginning to end 
the next side. 

890
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,760
And it's service that like 
interactive, like pick whatever 

891
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,120
you want in that moment. 
Like over stimulation almost 

892
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,680
that we get from online like 
media consumption. 

893
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,760
Like you can't just skip ahead 2
songs because like that's your 

894
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,760
favorite song on this album. 
You have to go slow and you have

895
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,760
to consume something 
incompletion. 

896
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,640
I find that really helps to 
like, slow my, you know, energy 

897
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,400
levels down a little, a little 
bit, even if it is like an 

898
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,600
upbeat, like, even if it's like 
a, you know, a puppy dancey 

899
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,160
album. 
There's something about taking 

900
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,120
the time to consume something 
the way that the artist created 

901
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,200
it from beginning to end with no
interference from you. 

902
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:11,320
Yeah, I find quite calming. 
So I do like doing that. 

903
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,920
And then as I said, like my 
family lives in a different 

904
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,280
state than me, so a lot of my 
spare time actually is like a 

905
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,600
long phone calls. 
Yeah. 

906
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,880
But it's really nice because I'm
the most online. 

907
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,600
Yeah. 
No one else is as online as me. 

908
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,160
And so you have these, like, 
really normal, lovely 

909
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,880
conversations that I find quite 
grounding. 

910
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,360
It's again, oh, groundbreaking. 
Like spend time with your 

911
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,720
friends and family. 
But there is something about 

912
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:38,880
that that I find. 
Yeah. 

913
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,240
Helps. 
And I mean, look around like it 

914
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:44,000
is beautiful down here. 
I mean, obviously I live in 

915
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,160
Sydney. 
Like, that's how we know each 

916
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,560
other. 
But the pace in Tasmania is so 

917
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,800
much slower than Sydney and 
Melbourne and even like even 

918
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,040
Perth, which is where I grew up,
like it just there is so much 

919
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,680
access to nature here. 
She's like very helpful. 

920
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,160
And there is just a slower pace 
of life that has really helped. 

921
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,560
I think like bring my anxiety 
down. 

922
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,040
Like I don't think it would be 
surprised anyone to be like, Oh 

923
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,160
my God, you reckon using you 
having? 

924
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:08,800
Anxiety. 
Yeah, yeah. 

925
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,840
Literally same, join the club, 
but it was really, it has really

926
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,040
helped and I just love it down 
here, yeah. 

927
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,480
I love. 
That So those are the tips. 

928
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,960
Have friends, have family. 
Have a record player? 

929
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,040
Have a. 
Record player and moved to 

930
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,240
Tasmania. 
I love that. 

931
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,040
Well, thank you so much, 
Crystal. 

932
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,840
Thanks for having me. 
Centennial World Podcast Network

933
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,680
operates on Gadigal land. 
We would like to acknowledge the

934
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,920
Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the 
traditional custodians of this 

935
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,480
land, and pay our respects to 
elders both past and present.