1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 Welcome to Touchgrass, a miniseries where I chat with 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,120 creatives about staying sane while being chronically online. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,000 I'm your host, Lauren Meisner, and Touchgrass is a miniseries 4 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:14,440 brought to you by Britta, where we explore the implications of 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,440 being chronically online with the creatives who can't escape 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,560 it. One thing that keeps coming up 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,920 in these conversations is how important small grounding 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,400 routines are offline. And for me, one of those 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,440 routines is drinking enough water. 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Whether I'm refilling my water bottle for a long walk or taking 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,400 a break from scrolling my For You page, Britta makes it easy 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,520 for me to stay hydrated and grounded with pure, fresh 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,840 tasting filtered water straight from any top. 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,240 Thank you to Britta for supporting independent media and 15 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,760 helping us take better care of ourselves, one refill at a time. 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,080 Today I'm chatting with my friend and musician, Ben Lee. 17 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,520 Ben and I chat about social media and the music industry, 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,840 how being chronically online helps him be a better parent, 19 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,360 and his philosophy behind his status as a public to do good. 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,400 Thank you so much. And this is Gus. 21 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,640 He's my personal handler. He's my favorite guest that 22 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,720 we've ever had. Recently cleared of any 23 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:11,600 involvement with the Epstein files. 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,680 There were rumors going around. But he is not. 25 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,160 It was not him. It was a different Gus. 26 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,680 Yeah, OK, I'm going to let him wonder. 27 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,800 I'm so excited to have you on Touch Grass. 28 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:23,720 You are well, you're the first musician that we've had. 29 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,000 You're also the first parent that we've had, but we have 30 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,680 known each other for maybe like a year now at this point. 31 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,920 Well, I've been aware of you for long. 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,480 I've been a fan. I, I, I've, I listen to Mini 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,880 Skull for probably like 2 years maybe. 34 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:39,480 And then I started following you. 35 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,560 And then we. Yeah. 36 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:41,520 When we. Yeah. 37 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,480 We met each other. Yeah, I love that. 38 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,320 OK, so we start every interview by asking guests the same 39 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,640 question. Do you consider yourself 40 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,800 chronically online? I suppose I do. 41 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:59,760 I suppose I do, but I also think of that as being within a larger 42 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,120 sort of construct of being involved in culture. 43 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,680 Right. So when culture moved online, we 44 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,320 went online. But we're not there because we 45 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,720 love being online. We're there because we love 46 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:16,200 culture. Yeah. 47 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,160 Yeah, no, I love that. That's a perfect way to put it. 48 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,960 Because I everyone that we've spoken to so far in this series 49 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,720 has to be chronically online for their job for one reason or 50 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,320 another, and all of them desperately wish they didn't 51 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,440 have to be. Yeah, I mean, it's quite funny 52 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,520 because I was thinking about, I was thinking about this subject 53 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,480 coming here today and I was thinking about how I used to be 54 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,680 obsessed with music magazines and particularly like the 55 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,240 British ones that were like they used to come really slowly. 56 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,880 So you'd get them like female, so like the news would be really 57 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,680 old, but. But I was obsessed with them and 58 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,280 St. Press, like, you know, like in 59 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,600 New York, the Village Voice, so the LA Weekly, like wherever 60 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,320 culture sort of located itself, I was always obsessed with. 61 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,640 So I, I think for me, obviously the online thing has gotten much 62 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:08,680 more immersive in the amount of time we spend on it, but I was 63 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,480 always thinking about it 24 hours a day, wherever it was. 64 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,320 Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. OK. 65 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,040 So I wanted to talk to you about your career because you 66 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,680 obviously hit it really big when you were really young and pre 67 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,520 social media, correct? Yes, true. 68 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,160 True. So tell us a little bit about 69 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,160 that experience and I would love to hear how that's how your 70 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,560 experience, I suppose, with your career has evolved as social 71 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,360 media has come into the picture. Yeah, well, the whole model of 72 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,160 being a rock star or whatever success in music, it was all 73 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,560 very like otherworldly when I was growing up. 74 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,680 Like, so I was born in 78, so I sort of most of my sort of 75 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,800 formal, kind of like the the fantasy of what it meant to be 76 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,560 in music was formed in the 80s. Yeah. 77 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,480 In which bands just seemed like gods, you know what I mean? 78 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,040 Like the idea that we went Mötley Crüe. 79 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,600 My first concert I really went to is Mötley Crüe, right? 80 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,320 Sydney Entertainment Center, 1988, probably. 81 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,040 I was 10 years old. The idea that there would be any 82 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,880 kind of acknowledgement from an artist would just be like, it 83 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,360 would give you heart palpitations. 84 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,160 It was like, whereas now it's so different because people, if you 85 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,280 don't respond to comments on Instagram, like access is an 86 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,480 assumed thing. So the inaccessibility was a 87 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,000 massive part of the fantasy actually. 88 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,960 And that's really, I guess, tied in with glamour, that things you 89 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,720 can't touch seem much more glamorous. 90 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,280 So there was a lot of escape in that fantasy of what it meant to 91 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:42,600 be in music or movies or media or whatever. 92 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,840 You felt like, oh, you were going to enter this other world 93 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,880 that was essentially like inaccessible to ordinary people, 94 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:50,800 you know? So it's very different. 95 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,600 I was always interested in the mechanics of how it all worked. 96 00:04:53,600 --> 00:05:00,160 And when I started, it was like making demo tapes, making a bio, 97 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,280 having going to Kinko's, doing Flyers and making a package and 98 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:07,680 sending it to record labels and you know, all that kind of 99 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:08,920 stuff. It was very like DIY. 100 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,680 It was a lot of time at Kinko's, but in a sense, I think punk 101 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,120 rock and indie rock like prepared me for online life. 102 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,640 How so? Because it was all about it 103 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,760 being fast, cheap and out of control. 104 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,040 It was not about doing things perfectly. 105 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,280 Like in a sense, in indie rock, the fantasy was that you were 106 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:36,080 going to be constantly creative, have a constant stream of 107 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,920 output, and sort of bypass the gatekeepers of major labels that 108 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,080 would keep you on this sort of like formal schedule of release 109 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,000 and all that. So the indie rock fantasy was 110 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,480 like being in your friends bands and playing in lots of gigs and 111 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,520 doing like compilations and seven inches. 112 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,640 And in a way, what the Internet became is sort of the punk rock 113 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,040 fantasy. Take out the corporate overlords 114 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,240 to it. But the idea that you would have 115 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,240 a direct channel of communication with your audience 116 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,320 was sort of what we wanted through fanzines and tape 117 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,320 trading and all of that. Yeah. 118 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Yeah. So it was kind of interesting 119 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,000 because I came up like, I started really young, so I got 120 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,400 signed when I was 14. And what was so wild about it 121 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,800 was that like my peers, the bands that I started playing 122 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,240 with, like Pavement and Sabado and Sonic Youth, the Beastie 123 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Boys, they were in their late 20s. 124 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,040 So they were actually from a different generation, even 125 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,120 though we were musically in the same scene. 126 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,200 They grew up through, like, hardcore and college radio and 127 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,960 all this stuff where I think a lot of those artists have had a 128 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:45,640 harder time adapting to online life than people my age did. 129 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,600 There was almost closer to like, the streaming generation, you 130 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,560 know what I mean? So, yeah, so it's just a really 131 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,600 wild thing to live through that transition, I guess. 132 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,160 Yeah, that's really cool. First of all, I need to say that 133 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,040 you're only one year older than Jax Taylor. 134 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,320 Did you know that? I didn't know that, but I hope 135 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,720 that in my emotional maturity levels exceed more than 12 136 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,960 months. You know, it's like that's. 137 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,600 Wild, I know he's, but he really got. 138 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,440 It's funny because, yeah, he really got caught in that like, 139 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,600 arrested adolescence type thing, which I could have too. 140 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,520 A lot of musicians do too. But I guess his immature 141 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,880 behavior was lauded much more than mine was. 142 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,960 And that's one of the dangers of media persona, branding, all of 143 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,920 that is that what you get praised for gets sort of 144 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,720 validated and you can end up in a bit of a cycle of like forming 145 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,920 an identity around it. Some noise, some ways. 146 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,440 I think, like, I look at the kind of career, this is a bit 147 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,560 bit of a separate point, but I look at the kind of career I 148 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,360 sort of wanted and it would probably be more conservative 149 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,240 than the 1 I actually got. And then you look at someone 150 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,880 like John Mayer who probably got the kind of career I thought I 151 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,760 wanted, and even he got bored with that. 152 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He joined the Grateful Dead. 153 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,400 He must have been bored to tears, right? 154 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,080 So, so, so, so I mean, like it's kind of interesting to realize 155 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,480 that like you do get a more interest if you stick it out, 156 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:14,240 you get a more interesting and dynamic relationship to the 157 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,640 industry than the one you first seek. 158 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,040 I don't know how that's connected to Jax Taylor, but I'm 159 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,360 sure he was not trying to get sober and now he's going to 160 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,200 have. To, you know, exactly. 161 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,200 Well, he definitely just wanted to be famous. 162 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,960 That was like his one goal, I feel, you know? 163 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,920 Yeah, I mean that, that that I mean, we we don't have to go too 164 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,799 far off. That's the fun of talking to 165 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:35,440 you. But like, but I think like it 166 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,440 was so interesting because that right before he got fired from 167 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,919 Vanderpump, when he referred to Vanderpump Rules as his show. 168 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:46,080 Oh my God, that was actually a really interesting moment in 169 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,680 terms of media ego identity. Because he wasn't wrong. 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,960 Like, like we were tuning in primarily because of the 171 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,720 wreckage of his life. But there's a difference between 172 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,920 commanding people's attention as a freak show and actually having 173 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,200 power behind the scenes in an industry. 174 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,240 And I think that's what Lisa Vanderpump knew was like, no 175 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,640 matter how much you still focus through chaos, it's not your 176 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,000 show. Yeah. 177 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,240 Yeah. And I think that's very 178 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,760 interesting. I think we, a lot of people, 179 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,560 learn that in media and in the industry that chaotic people can 180 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:27,800 come and go, yeah, but the ability to leverage power and 181 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,680 make things happen, yeah, is a whole different skill. 182 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,120 OK, well I wanted to talk about Annabelle's favorite TikTok that 183 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,680 she found from you, OK, where somebody assumes that you were a 184 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:40,160 Tik Toker trying to make it as a. 185 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,080 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was flattering, wasn't it? 186 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,360 That's like, I know, just another Tik Toker trying to make 187 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:47,920 it in music. I'll tell you what I found 188 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,240 flattering about that. OK, so that was like some young 189 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,360 person who just discovered me on TikTok, and then I was talking 190 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,080 about a new single coming out, and they're like, oh, another 191 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,920 Tik Toker putting out a single. I think what's interesting about 192 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,520 that was it reflects how fully committed I am to whatever I'm 193 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,360 doing. Like, I generally don't wink at 194 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,200 my audience. Yeah, when me and Ionia are 195 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,120 doing our podcast, I don't, I don't wink at the audience to be 196 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,000 like, I'm a musician with a podcast, you know what I mean? 197 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,000 I'm like, hey, we're doing this, let's do it. 198 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,400 I think what people really want to connect with is just people 199 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,080 who are present in what they're doing. 200 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,600 And that can be positive or negative, It can be creative or 201 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,960 destructive. But even if it's like, take the 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,440 most chaotic example, like Gabby Hannah, right? 203 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:32,520 I'm just. Because I talked about her. 204 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:34,840 Today, OK, because she's having a, you know, obviously like 205 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,560 you're like, I have a 16 year old. 206 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:40,440 So I'm on top of Gabby Hannah's comeback and they're the re, you 207 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,360 know, this taking it up with Trisha Paytas and all these. 208 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,280 But Trisha Paytas is another person who is fully present in 209 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,760 the chaos of the exploration of who she is. 210 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,480 And I think that is something that the Internet very much 211 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,760 rewards. It rewards commitment to the 212 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,760 present moment. And I think that when you show 213 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,120 up doing Tik Toks and you're not, you don't have an agenda of 214 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,560 I'm actually trying to sell concert tickets or I'm actually, 215 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:10,360 but you're actually just being present and sharing. 216 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,440 Yeah. That I think that's I, I take 217 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,520 that as the most flattering thing on the on the downside of 218 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:22,200 it is it is kind of crazy how marginalized the parts of our 219 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,560 careers as musicians. Like the centerpiece used to be 220 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,200 the thing we were making the music and even touring was 221 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,880 essentially done to promote the album sales. 222 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,080 Whereas now album sales don't really have any, you know, 223 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,280 there's no real income from that. 224 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,960 So it's flipped and it's, you use albums to promote tours 225 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,800 basically. So, so the whole thing has been 226 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,480 inverted and that is kind of harrowing, I guess. 227 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,880 And that is what that there's a gallows humor to that TikTok, 228 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,320 right, which is that we've all essentially been turned into 229 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,560 content creators. And I don't know, I've talked 230 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,280 to, I've talked to other musicians about this and there 231 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,920 are some musicians who they Rage Against it. 232 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,760 They Rage Against the term content. 233 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,480 They Rage Against the idea that we're all content creators. 234 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,840 They're like, they're nostalgic from another era. 235 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,560 Well, I mean, I think part of the reason I've survived and 236 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:22,320 that I have a career over 30 years into what I'm doing is 237 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,960 that like, I don't spend 2 seconds crying over what was 238 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,080 left behind because you're going to drown if you do that. 239 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,280 You have to keep agile, keep adapting, and step into the 240 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,480 world that you're really in. Yeah. 241 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,040 I was going to say, do you feel like in your industry, marketing 242 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,600 is the product now as opposed to music is the product? 243 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,520 Because I kind of feel that way in media. 244 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,160 And I mean, I guess media is slightly different because the 245 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,560 medium is usually the product. But even as a founder, like 246 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,480 trying to navigate my own founder content, same thing. 247 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,080 It's like trying to strike that balance between of course, I'm 248 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,200 trying to like raise awareness for Centennial, but I'm also 249 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,000 trying to build, I suppose, my own audience of what is it 250 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,040 founders that people that will listen to the podcast like. 251 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,800 Trying to navigate that has been really interesting and I often 252 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,080 feel like marketing is the product at the end of the day as 253 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,240 the founder. Yeah, I think that's probably 254 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,360 true. I mean, I, I don't think of it 255 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,160 in terms of marketing. I think of it in terms of like 256 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:25,280 the monetizable aspect of my career is highly unknown from 257 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,360 year to year. Like I think of it in terms of 258 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,520 the phones ringing or it's not like that's show business, you 259 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,280 know what I mean? That's Shirley MacLaine in 260 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,200 Postcards from the Edge. I'm still here. 261 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,880 You know what I mean? That that's like, like basically 262 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,360 I try and give and give generously and give 263 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,040 authentically about things that I care about and I find funny 264 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,880 and I'm interested in. And I believe that if I add 265 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:57,400 value to my smaller and wider community, the phone will ring 266 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,520 and someone will offer me money to do something. 267 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,720 That's basically how I think about it. 268 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,080 I think even in terms of marketing, it's like, I don't 269 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,360 know what the business is like we all have, you know, whatever 270 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,760 what's, we're all making God laugh with our plans. 271 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,240 You know, it's like we all have these ideas of how we're going 272 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,840 to essentially keep paying our rent or our mortgage or, you 273 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,200 know, whatever, you know, supporting ourselves. 274 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,400 The only way I can look at it is that we are involved in a 275 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:31,880 continual value exchange and we give and we give a lot for free. 276 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,640 And often the things we've put the hardest work into, they lose 277 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,560 money and then something we're not expecting connects and then 278 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,800 you get paid for something completely unrelated. 279 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,880 So that's why I kind of really ascribe to the idea that success 280 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,760 in media or show business is like hacking your way through a 281 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,680 jungle with a machete and as soon as you clear the path, it 282 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,600 closes behind you. So no one can follow you because 283 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,200 there are no two people that can take the same path. 284 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,000 It is not repeatable. It is not duplicatable. 285 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,200 You have to find your own way through the jungle and that's 286 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:10,400 that's the way it is. Oh my. 287 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,560 God I love that visualization. As somebody with really bad 288 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,200 imposter syndrome, I'm constantly like comparing myself 289 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,440 and I'm going to use that now. I'm you know who I stole that 290 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,600 from, not stole who I got it because I'm open about. 291 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,480 I actually heard the creator of Modern Family describe use that 292 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,040 description on a podcast about getting ATV show made. 293 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,720 He's like, there's no two people do it the same way. 294 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,240 Media arts, entertainment. They've always been highly risky 295 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,400 careers, right? But lo and behold, they were 296 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,400 also kind of prophetic in that every career seems risky. 297 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,040 Yeah. No, really, is there any career 298 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,760 that seems secure? I mean, honestly, like, tradies. 299 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,440 Yeah. Like when you meet like an 300 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,040 electrician or plumber and you go like, OK, you're good for a 301 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,720 decade. Yeah, yeah, you are good for a 302 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,200 decade. I don't. 303 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,320 Think that is your job? Not for the moment, not for the 304 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,840 moment. So they seem like the most 305 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,280 secure jobs, but everyone else, it's like we're all just 306 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,840 surfing, dancing, scrambling, whatever we're doing, you know? 307 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,080 And I just don't think there's no two people doing it the same 308 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,080 way. OK, so I wanted to talk about 309 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,720 how you use your social media platform because obviously you 310 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,320 are pretty vocal about social commentary where you land in 311 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,280 politics. And I don't think that's super 312 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480 common when it comes to public figures and even podcasters. 313 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,200 You know, like I try and be really open about where we fall 314 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,240 in my opinion on things because I think that's important. 315 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,280 I think it's important that people know who they're 316 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,600 following and what they're. Consuming. 317 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,080 I like how you do it though, because you, it's almost like to 318 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,160 a casual listener, they wouldn't be alienated by your politics. 319 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,000 You have to listen for a while to actually see the continuity 320 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,360 in your viewpoint. And I think that's, I think you 321 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,880 handle that quite subtly and quite delicately. 322 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,400 Thank you. Thank you. 323 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:56,840 Well, tell me about your approach to that. 324 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,240 Or do you have an approach to speaking out? 325 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,040 Social pressure is really interesting. 326 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:08,280 There are certain inflection points in social dialogue where 327 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,200 we hit a point where you do have to pick a side with things. 328 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,839 And I'm kind of, I'm becoming increasingly tolerant of 329 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,760 allowing that moment to come organically because I think 330 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,960 sometimes for things to change it's important to speak at the 331 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,319 right time. Just jumping in with your 332 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,960 opinion on every single thing is not necessarily the way to be 333 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,600 most useful, particularly as I've become more and more of an 334 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,040 advocate for the arts, particularly Australian music, 335 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,600 and not not in a nationalistic way. 336 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,800 This is a way that something some people really don't 337 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,760 understand this though, because there are people, there are kids 338 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,200 and young people who have grown up in an online world that go, 339 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,480 who cares where it came from? Why do we have to? 340 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,000 And I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint because in a utopian 341 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,880 sense, I agree with them. But I also believe in scenes 342 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,000 have power. I believe in scenes and I 343 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,640 believe in the mutual support that comes through scenes. 344 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,840 That's why I connected with you. I knew you were working in 345 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,880 Sydney and you were doing interesting work in media and I 346 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,680 was like, this is an ally of mine. 347 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,240 This is someone who I want to support what she's doing. 348 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,360 You know, in some ways I can just like put my money where my 349 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:26,440 mouth is and support artists that have interesting 350 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,080 viewpoints. It's not my place to say why 351 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,120 it's important, it just is important to me. 352 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,600 So I want to listen to music from people that have different 353 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,120 outlooks cuz I don't know that's that's why I enjoy art. 354 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,640 OK, So what is it like having a teenage daughter? 355 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,880 I imagine it's actually probably in some ways easier for you to 356 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,040 relate to her because you are so chronically online. 357 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Yeah, well, in some ways I found that like I I kind of got on 358 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,240 TikTok because my daughter and my stepdaughter were on it. 359 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:05,760 And I really like being able to have commonality in our 360 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,720 dialogue. I like to know, I like to 361 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,760 understand the jokes. I like to know the references. 362 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:19,440 I think that yes, while I'm sure that sitting and reading 363 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,520 together would probably be in the grand scheme of things, a 364 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,600 healthier trait than sitting looking at Tik Toks together, I 365 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,360 think that there is when you look at the big picture of 366 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,920 connecting with your kids, you know, I'm a big fan of like punk 367 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,800 rock and Malcolm McLaren. And like, like there was this 368 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,400 whole idea that like you have to speak the language of your 369 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,360 generation if you want to be in media. 370 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,800 You can't put yourself in an ivory tower. 371 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,960 You know, you have to be in dialogue. 372 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,160 And I think for me, it's helped with not only my career but also 373 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,880 my parenting. Our friend Nomi Fry from The New 374 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,120 Yorker, she said she was talking about she's raising a teenager, 375 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,160 too. And she said, I don't know, Are 376 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,880 we just becoming addicts together? 377 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,000 Is that what parenting is now? And that may be true, but there 378 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,080 is something about the willingness to sit in hell if we 379 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,120 are in hell with your kids and go, I'm not abandoning you in 380 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,280 hell. I'm gonna sit next to you in 381 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,200 hell, and I'm not gonna say, oh, you're on your own in there. 382 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,040 Yeah. So I kind of think of it like 383 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,880 that, Like maybe we are in hell, but you know what I'm gonna 384 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,960 stand by you for? It I'm interested to hear a 385 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,520 little bit more. I know you already touched on 386 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,400 it, but a little bit more about your work within Australian 387 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,480 music. Can you talk about, I suppose, 388 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,000 why you're so passionate about that and the work that you've 389 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,440 been doing? Well, I guess it stems from the 390 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,880 idea like my first opportunities came from other artists. 391 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,160 So I got signed my band. We had like a, you know, lofi 392 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,000 band in the 90s and we got signed to Sonic Youth's label 393 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,120 and the Beastie Boys label. They were artists, run labels. 394 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:07,080 So I came into the industry with a belief and a lived experience 395 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:13,160 that the end goal of getting a platform was using it to share 396 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,800 it with young artists you believed in. 397 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,080 I just was like, that's the point. 398 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,440 Yeah. And then I don't know. 399 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,800 That's just like a punk thing. And it's, it's like, and but 400 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,240 it's not just punk. Like even like, you know, it 401 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,600 came from folk music, like Joan Baez bringing up Bob Dylan and 402 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,840 like, and Bob Dylan turning people onto Woody Guthrie. 403 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,560 And you know, just like the whole there was just like a 404 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,280 constant idea of like, let me show you like Nirvana going. 405 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,960 But do you know the Pixies? Do you know Daniel Johnston? 406 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,000 Do you know Shannon Knife? The idea was that all culture 407 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,880 could be any, any particular point of culture could be an 408 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,520 entry point to a life changing exploration. 409 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,160 That's how I've always viewed the music industry and culture. 410 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,920 I started this kind of like when I was young, like I would like, 411 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,920 we'd have a show and I'd always be like, wow, who were the cool 412 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,280 bands I can get to open? Who can I share on my Myspace in 413 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,520 my top 8 or whatever it was on Myspace. 414 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Like that. That idea of like having a 415 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,560 platform and using it to turn people on to cool shit was 416 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,960 always the dream. But yeah, I just always assumed 417 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,040 that that was the point. And as I've gotten to meet more 418 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,840 people that like, Oh no, they actually want to gatekeep their 419 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,560 own success and their audiences. And like, I look at artists and 420 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,200 how little they share other people's work on their social 421 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,080 media. Like, OK, I get it. 422 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,880 Not the main grid. I get it. 423 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,120 I get it. That's why you have a story. 424 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,120 Share singles that come out by your friends, share their tour 425 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:45,840 dates. Like, why wouldn't you like 426 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,600 share the wealth? The more it's like, you know, a 427 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,040 rising tide type thing. It's like we really can. 428 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Like, I mean, this is like just a punk thing. 429 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,280 It's like you rise together. So anyway, as I've gotten older, 430 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,400 I sort of started to realize that my platform is like a real 431 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,800 thing now. It's not the biggest in the 432 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,840 world, but to be honest with you, I've never tried to make my 433 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,080 platform the biggest in the world. 434 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,160 I've just tried to make it really cool. 435 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,040 Like, I've always cared more about how cool my audience were 436 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,760 and how like, like who they were rather than how many they were. 437 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,080 And so it just very organically happened. 438 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,160 And then when we were living in LA, around the early 2000s in LA 439 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,720 was a really interesting time because Aussies, we, I don't 440 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,200 know, we, it's sort of like everyone started like this 441 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,600 network of people supporting each other really banded 442 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,360 together. So every weekend there would be 443 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,240 barbecues and it would be like Keith Ledger and Rose Byrne and 444 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,680 Joel Edgerton and then Missy Higgins and like all the bands 445 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,040 and Sarah Blasco and everyone was coming through. 446 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,200 And it really was like, you had a few people's numbers. 447 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,440 You called when you got to LA and you were brought into the 448 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,320 fold. It was assumed that if you were 449 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,720 there, you needed community. And then online almost like 450 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,800 dissipated that like it stopped being as much a thing because 451 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,480 you didn't have people's numbers anymore. 452 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,000 You were just like D Ming and all that kind of stuff. 453 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,600 And so I really like when bands started coming, I started being 454 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,840 like, oh, you know what, let's have some people over Cub sport 455 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,760 are coming to town. Let's throw a little pool party 456 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,320 for them. And then it became like, oh, 457 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,360 this young producer Nina Jirachi's coming. 458 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,320 Let's let's throw a little party in her house and she can DJ and 459 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,360 Amel and the sniffers are coming. 460 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,760 And we, we just started doing it and it started having these 461 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,440 really like tangible effects where like Amal and the 462 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,440 sniffers, it was like their first tour of America. 463 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,160 And like Beck came to our house and Reggie Watts and Nick Zenner 464 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,840 from the airs and everyone watched them play. 465 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,680 And you kind of went like, oh, this is like actually helpful. 466 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,200 And so I just started realizing like this is a thing, you know, 467 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,360 and, and honestly, like the last Aria awards for people 468 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,360 internationally, I know we have a, we have a big international 469 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:01,480 audience and that's our Grammys type thing. 470 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,240 But the Arias are like a, it's like a traditional kind of 471 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,920 thing. So there's like the old world 472 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,440 and then there's all the young bucks, you know, coming in. 473 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,280 And I was like the only artist standing between the two worlds. 474 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,880 And it was the year of Amel and the sniffers and in a Gerachi, 475 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,960 who were both artists that I put a lot of energy and love into 476 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,760 supporting and sharing and I experienced it. 477 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,120 It's so funny. There's a Yiddish word, Nachus, 478 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,600 And it's like, I actually got like the joy of other people's 479 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,280 success. Like, really. 480 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,800 Like Nina said to me, you know, after she won all her awards, 481 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,160 we're having a little moment on the side. 482 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,840 And she said, Ben, you know that session because we did a little 483 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,240 recording session. She's like the session at your 484 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,720 house where we write the song All I Am. 485 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,440 She's like, that was the start of my album. 486 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,840 And that session made me feel ready to make my album. 487 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:47,920 And this is the album that did so well. 488 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,240 And she's like, thank you. I genuinely mean that. 489 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,680 And I said, listen, I have never been tangentially involved with 490 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,960 a project that had this much undeniable momentum. 491 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,760 Thank you for letting me bear witness to this because it has 492 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,280 blown my mind. Like, once you see that happen 493 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,320 and it's real and you realize how much hype there is in, like, 494 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,800 you're trying, like, a lot of show business is like talking up 495 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,000 success and like pretending it's happening when it's not. 496 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:15,760 And then you see it really happening. 497 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,720 You're like, oh, and so that you'd, like changed my life. 498 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,040 But that night of the Arias, I realized like, oh, this isn't in 499 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,760 my imagination. Like I can be part of. 500 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,560 And I don't want this to sound like, I don't want to be like A 501 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,120 and I'm not trying to be like a king maker where I'm like 502 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,800 selecting, Oh, you're good, You're not you're. 503 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,280 But the stuff I like, I want to throw my weight behind it 504 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,920 because it's meaningful. And so anyway, in a broad sense, 505 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,080 that's really all I'm doing. But some of that is also now 506 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840 starting to look at the functioning of the industry 507 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,040 because I don't know how much you know about all the 508 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,600 conversations going on about Spotify. 509 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,640 Spotify has had a very interesting effect on 510 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,280 international markets. Non-english speaking markets 511 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:08,920 have seen their music, domestic music skyrocket because to the 512 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,360 ear of people in that country, it's identifiable on their 513 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:15,280 streaming services. So they go, if you're in Sweden, 514 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,640 you want to hear a Swedish language music and you'd be 515 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,240 like, I'm going to listen to Sweden. 516 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,600 And then one artist leads to another. 517 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,880 If you're in Australia or England, you don't know whether 518 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,080 you're being fed Australian music, American Music, or 519 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,160 British music. And basically in Australia and 520 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,040 in England, our music industries are being completely 521 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,280 marginalized as we are being bombarded with American Music. 522 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,040 I love American Music. Obviously, American Music is 523 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,040 like the best music has ever been made. 524 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,080 But we don't realize what we're losing, right? 525 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,640 So I've gotten a little bit more involved in that. 526 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,640 And again, to come back to that Gen. 527 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,680 Z argument of, well, what's the difference? 528 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,040 Yes, when you're listening to Spotify, what's the difference? 529 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,560 Who cares? But when you're 16 and want to 530 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,640 go and jump in a mosh pit for the first time and want to like 531 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,680 get all your aggression out and want to go buy AT shirt from a 532 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,120 band that has to be a local artist. 533 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,000 Yeah, That's not going to be Chapel Rd. 534 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Yeah, yeah. That's going to be a band called 535 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,040 a gang called Speed playing the like the local hardcore show or 536 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,080 RMFC or like one of these younger bands. 537 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,600 So like, so I just, I feel that we are in danger of losing a 538 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,400 very hands on tangible cultural touchstone if we don't support 539 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,120 our local scenes. Also for the artists themselves, 540 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,720 they need to be able to see, you know, that they can make it and 541 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,840 not have to move to the US, right? 542 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:39,480 That's. Right. 543 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,800 Yeah, yeah. And and also there's so many 544 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,400 industries like, look, what we're doing right now is 545 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,640 theoretically trickle down effect from people spending a 546 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,760 lot of money at corporations that give you content to talk 547 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,720 about, right? You know, so like there's from 548 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,400 nightlife leads to like restaurants and bars and buskers 549 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,760 and Uber drivers. And like there's to keep a city 550 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,480 vibrant, which, you know, Sydney has really had like the 551 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,800 nightlife beaten out of it over the last two decades. 552 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,240 And now there's a real effort to bring it back. 553 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,400 And you know, I'm hearing a lot of people saying like Sydney's 554 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,120 coming back, like they're investing a lot of money in 555 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,120 nightlife, but you got to have local, local passion, local 556 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,640 talent, local opportunity and all the local industries that 557 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,720 come along with it. Yeah, I love that. 558 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,080 OK. Well the last question that I 559 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,040 have for you is tell me how you touch grass. 560 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,240 How do I touch grass I feel? Like you're always touching 561 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,000 grass. Yeah. 562 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,400 I mean, OK. So I guess I'm going to be a 563 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:47,920 little more macro and say that when I was younger, I was really 564 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,320 obsessed with spiritual practices like meditation and 565 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,160 psychedelics and retreats and all this stuff. 566 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,640 Because I used to believe that like you had to touch grass in a 567 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,960 very literal way in order to counteract the very literal way 568 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,000 we lose ourselves to modern stress and everything and 569 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,520 whatever. And I think my personal belief 570 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,480 is that nowadays the way I think about spirituality, say, is that 571 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,560 the practice is life. There's no separate thing, 572 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,160 right? I'm not sure if thinking about 573 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,720 touching grass as something that happens outside of our 574 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,640 relationship to technology or anything is that useful anymore. 575 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,040 Because in a way, all aspects of our life are part of the same 576 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,680 dance. So for me, it's more a moment to 577 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,120 moment thing. Like I saw a really, you might 578 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,360 have seen I put on my Instagram story the other day that I got. 579 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,400 So it's great TikTok, you know, that one going around of like 580 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,880 the girl saying hi, hi to people, like liking their 581 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,360 Instagram stories. Like that's touching grass to 582 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:57,320 me. Yeah, OK. 583 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,040 Touching grass is actual connection. 584 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,560 And that can happen in the digital world. 585 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,440 It can happen in the analog world, it can happen in nature, 586 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,600 it can happen in the city. It's saying that like, I see 587 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,760 you, do you see me? I see you, hi, you know, and 588 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,880 just the very simple human to human thing of saying hi to each 589 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,160 other, to ourselves, making that fundamental to the way I use the 590 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,160 Internet. That is kind of what it's all 591 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,320 about for me. And then a separate thing is I 592 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,120 play live music generally two or three nights a week. 593 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,760 My phone is my clock. So it is down there on the floor 594 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,520 next to my sailors, but I'm not picking it up. 595 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,560 I am sweating. I am singing. 596 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,640 I am in an athletic, transcendent moment with an 597 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,840 audience who want to be together in a room. 598 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,680 They don't want to fucking live stream it through beeps. 599 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,640 No shade on beeps. Good on beeps. 600 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,080 But I don't think that can replace live music. 601 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,240 Something that happens in a room. 602 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,880 I love that. And those things like live 603 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,480 music, sex, food, laughter, these things are like they're 604 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,480 innate to who we are. And I think that realness of 605 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,800 feeling, of being a human who feels, just remembering, that's 606 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,800 who we are. And that's the name of the game. 607 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,720 That's an amazing place to live. All right. 608 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,240 Thank you so much. Thank you. 609 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,360 Centennial World Podcast Network operates on Gadigal land. 610 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,640 We would like to acknowledge the Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the 611 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,840 traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to 612 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,600 elders both past and present.