Welcome to Touchgrass, a miniseries where I chat with
creatives about staying sane while being chronically online.
I'm your host, Lauren Meisner, and Touchgrass is a miniseries
brought to you by Britta, where we explore the implications of
being chronically online with the creatives who can't escape
it. One thing that keeps coming up
in these conversations is how important small grounding
routines are offline. And for me, one of those
routines is drinking enough water.
Whether I'm refilling my water bottle for a long walk or taking
a break from scrolling my For You page, Britta makes it easy
for me to stay hydrated and grounded with pure, fresh
tasting filtered water straight from any top.
Thank you to Britta for supporting independent media and
helping us take better care of ourselves, one refill at a time.
Today I'm chatting with my friend and musician, Ben Lee.
Ben and I chat about social media and the music industry,
how being chronically online helps him be a better parent,
and his philosophy behind his status as a public to do good.
Thank you so much. And this is Gus.
He's my personal handler. He's my favorite guest that
we've ever had. Recently cleared of any
involvement with the Epstein files.
There were rumors going around. But he is not.
It was not him. It was a different Gus.
Yeah, OK, I'm going to let him wonder.
I'm so excited to have you on Touch Grass.
You are well, you're the first musician that we've had.
You're also the first parent that we've had, but we have
known each other for maybe like a year now at this point.
Well, I've been aware of you for long.
I've been a fan. I, I, I've, I listen to Mini
Skull for probably like 2 years maybe.
And then I started following you.
And then we. Yeah.
When we. Yeah.
We met each other. Yeah, I love that.
OK, so we start every interview by asking guests the same
question. Do you consider yourself
chronically online? I suppose I do.
I suppose I do, but I also think of that as being within a larger
sort of construct of being involved in culture.
Right. So when culture moved online, we
went online. But we're not there because we
love being online. We're there because we love
culture. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I love that. That's a perfect way to put it.
Because I everyone that we've spoken to so far in this series
has to be chronically online for their job for one reason or
another, and all of them desperately wish they didn't
have to be. Yeah, I mean, it's quite funny
because I was thinking about, I was thinking about this subject
coming here today and I was thinking about how I used to be
obsessed with music magazines and particularly like the
British ones that were like they used to come really slowly.
So you'd get them like female, so like the news would be really
old, but. But I was obsessed with them and
St. Press, like, you know, like in
New York, the Village Voice, so the LA Weekly, like wherever
culture sort of located itself, I was always obsessed with.
So I, I think for me, obviously the online thing has gotten much
more immersive in the amount of time we spend on it, but I was
always thinking about it 24 hours a day, wherever it was.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. OK.
So I wanted to talk to you about your career because you
obviously hit it really big when you were really young and pre
social media, correct? Yes, true.
True. So tell us a little bit about
that experience and I would love to hear how that's how your
experience, I suppose, with your career has evolved as social
media has come into the picture. Yeah, well, the whole model of
being a rock star or whatever success in music, it was all
very like otherworldly when I was growing up.
Like, so I was born in 78, so I sort of most of my sort of
formal, kind of like the the fantasy of what it meant to be
in music was formed in the 80s. Yeah.
In which bands just seemed like gods, you know what I mean?
Like the idea that we went Mötley Crüe.
My first concert I really went to is Mötley Crüe, right?
Sydney Entertainment Center, 1988, probably.
I was 10 years old. The idea that there would be any
kind of acknowledgement from an artist would just be like, it
would give you heart palpitations.
It was like, whereas now it's so different because people, if you
don't respond to comments on Instagram, like access is an
assumed thing. So the inaccessibility was a
massive part of the fantasy actually.
And that's really, I guess, tied in with glamour, that things you
can't touch seem much more glamorous.
So there was a lot of escape in that fantasy of what it meant to
be in music or movies or media or whatever.
You felt like, oh, you were going to enter this other world
that was essentially like inaccessible to ordinary people,
you know? So it's very different.
I was always interested in the mechanics of how it all worked.
And when I started, it was like making demo tapes, making a bio,
having going to Kinko's, doing Flyers and making a package and
sending it to record labels and you know, all that kind of
stuff. It was very like DIY.
It was a lot of time at Kinko's, but in a sense, I think punk
rock and indie rock like prepared me for online life.
How so? Because it was all about it
being fast, cheap and out of control.
It was not about doing things perfectly.
Like in a sense, in indie rock, the fantasy was that you were
going to be constantly creative, have a constant stream of
output, and sort of bypass the gatekeepers of major labels that
would keep you on this sort of like formal schedule of release
and all that. So the indie rock fantasy was
like being in your friends bands and playing in lots of gigs and
doing like compilations and seven inches.
And in a way, what the Internet became is sort of the punk rock
fantasy. Take out the corporate overlords
to it. But the idea that you would have
a direct channel of communication with your audience
was sort of what we wanted through fanzines and tape
trading and all of that. Yeah.
So it was kind of interesting
because I came up like, I started really young, so I got
signed when I was 14. And what was so wild about it
was that like my peers, the bands that I started playing
with, like Pavement and Sabado and Sonic Youth, the Beastie
Boys, they were in their late 20s.
So they were actually from a different generation, even
though we were musically in the same scene.
They grew up through, like, hardcore and college radio and
all this stuff where I think a lot of those artists have had a
harder time adapting to online life than people my age did.
There was almost closer to like, the streaming generation, you
know what I mean? So, yeah, so it's just a really
wild thing to live through that transition, I guess.
Yeah, that's really cool. First of all, I need to say that
you're only one year older than Jax Taylor.
Did you know that? I didn't know that, but I hope
that in my emotional maturity levels exceed more than 12
months. You know, it's like that's.
Wild, I know he's, but he really got.
It's funny because, yeah, he really got caught in that like,
arrested adolescence type thing, which I could have too.
A lot of musicians do too. But I guess his immature
behavior was lauded much more than mine was.
And that's one of the dangers of media persona, branding, all of
that is that what you get praised for gets sort of
validated and you can end up in a bit of a cycle of like forming
an identity around it. Some noise, some ways.
I think, like, I look at the kind of career, this is a bit
bit of a separate point, but I look at the kind of career I
sort of wanted and it would probably be more conservative
than the 1 I actually got. And then you look at someone
like John Mayer who probably got the kind of career I thought I
wanted, and even he got bored with that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He joined the Grateful Dead.
He must have been bored to tears, right?
So, so, so, so I mean, like it's kind of interesting to realize
that like you do get a more interest if you stick it out,
you get a more interesting and dynamic relationship to the
industry than the one you first seek.
I don't know how that's connected to Jax Taylor, but I'm
sure he was not trying to get sober and now he's going to
have. To, you know, exactly.
Well, he definitely just wanted to be famous.
That was like his one goal, I feel, you know?
Yeah, I mean that, that that I mean, we we don't have to go too
far off. That's the fun of talking to
you. But like, but I think like it
was so interesting because that right before he got fired from
Vanderpump, when he referred to Vanderpump Rules as his show.
Oh my God, that was actually a really interesting moment in
terms of media ego identity. Because he wasn't wrong.
Like, like we were tuning in primarily because of the
wreckage of his life. But there's a difference between
commanding people's attention as a freak show and actually having
power behind the scenes in an industry.
And I think that's what Lisa Vanderpump knew was like, no
matter how much you still focus through chaos, it's not your
show. Yeah.
And I think that's very
interesting. I think we, a lot of people,
learn that in media and in the industry that chaotic people can
come and go, yeah, but the ability to leverage power and
make things happen, yeah, is a whole different skill.
OK, well I wanted to talk about Annabelle's favorite TikTok that
she found from you, OK, where somebody assumes that you were a
Tik Toker trying to make it as a.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was flattering, wasn't it?
That's like, I know, just another Tik Toker trying to make
it in music. I'll tell you what I found
flattering about that. OK, so that was like some young
person who just discovered me on TikTok, and then I was talking
about a new single coming out, and they're like, oh, another
Tik Toker putting out a single. I think what's interesting about
that was it reflects how fully committed I am to whatever I'm
doing. Like, I generally don't wink at
my audience. Yeah, when me and Ionia are
doing our podcast, I don't, I don't wink at the audience to be
like, I'm a musician with a podcast, you know what I mean?
I'm like, hey, we're doing this, let's do it.
I think what people really want to connect with is just people
who are present in what they're doing.
And that can be positive or negative, It can be creative or
destructive. But even if it's like, take the
most chaotic example, like Gabby Hannah, right?
I'm just. Because I talked about her.
Today, OK, because she's having a, you know, obviously like
you're like, I have a 16 year old.
So I'm on top of Gabby Hannah's comeback and they're the re, you
know, this taking it up with Trisha Paytas and all these.
But Trisha Paytas is another person who is fully present in
the chaos of the exploration of who she is.
And I think that is something that the Internet very much
rewards. It rewards commitment to the
present moment. And I think that when you show
up doing Tik Toks and you're not, you don't have an agenda of
I'm actually trying to sell concert tickets or I'm actually,
but you're actually just being present and sharing.
Yeah. That I think that's I, I take
that as the most flattering thing on the on the downside of
it is it is kind of crazy how marginalized the parts of our
careers as musicians. Like the centerpiece used to be
the thing we were making the music and even touring was
essentially done to promote the album sales.
Whereas now album sales don't really have any, you know,
there's no real income from that.
So it's flipped and it's, you use albums to promote tours
basically. So, so the whole thing has been
inverted and that is kind of harrowing, I guess.
And that is what that there's a gallows humor to that TikTok,
right, which is that we've all essentially been turned into
content creators. And I don't know, I've talked
to, I've talked to other musicians about this and there
are some musicians who they Rage Against it.
They Rage Against the term content.
They Rage Against the idea that we're all content creators.
They're like, they're nostalgic from another era.
Well, I mean, I think part of the reason I've survived and
that I have a career over 30 years into what I'm doing is
that like, I don't spend 2 seconds crying over what was
left behind because you're going to drown if you do that.
You have to keep agile, keep adapting, and step into the
world that you're really in. Yeah.
I was going to say, do you feel like in your industry, marketing
is the product now as opposed to music is the product?
Because I kind of feel that way in media.
And I mean, I guess media is slightly different because the
medium is usually the product. But even as a founder, like
trying to navigate my own founder content, same thing.
It's like trying to strike that balance between of course, I'm
trying to like raise awareness for Centennial, but I'm also
trying to build, I suppose, my own audience of what is it
founders that people that will listen to the podcast like.
Trying to navigate that has been really interesting and I often
feel like marketing is the product at the end of the day as
the founder. Yeah, I think that's probably
true. I mean, I, I don't think of it
in terms of marketing. I think of it in terms of like
the monetizable aspect of my career is highly unknown from
year to year. Like I think of it in terms of
the phones ringing or it's not like that's show business, you
know what I mean? That's Shirley MacLaine in
Postcards from the Edge. I'm still here.
You know what I mean? That that's like, like basically
I try and give and give generously and give
authentically about things that I care about and I find funny
and I'm interested in. And I believe that if I add
value to my smaller and wider community, the phone will ring
and someone will offer me money to do something.
That's basically how I think about it.
I think even in terms of marketing, it's like, I don't
know what the business is like we all have, you know, whatever
what's, we're all making God laugh with our plans.
You know, it's like we all have these ideas of how we're going
to essentially keep paying our rent or our mortgage or, you
know, whatever, you know, supporting ourselves.
The only way I can look at it is that we are involved in a
continual value exchange and we give and we give a lot for free.
And often the things we've put the hardest work into, they lose
money and then something we're not expecting connects and then
you get paid for something completely unrelated.
So that's why I kind of really ascribe to the idea that success
in media or show business is like hacking your way through a
jungle with a machete and as soon as you clear the path, it
closes behind you. So no one can follow you because
there are no two people that can take the same path.
It is not repeatable. It is not duplicatable.
You have to find your own way through the jungle and that's
that's the way it is. Oh my.
God I love that visualization. As somebody with really bad
imposter syndrome, I'm constantly like comparing myself
and I'm going to use that now. I'm you know who I stole that
from, not stole who I got it because I'm open about.
I actually heard the creator of Modern Family describe use that
description on a podcast about getting ATV show made.
He's like, there's no two people do it the same way.
Media arts, entertainment. They've always been highly risky
careers, right? But lo and behold, they were
also kind of prophetic in that every career seems risky.
Yeah. No, really, is there any career
that seems secure? I mean, honestly, like, tradies.
Yeah. Like when you meet like an
electrician or plumber and you go like, OK, you're good for a
decade. Yeah, yeah, you are good for a
decade. I don't.
Think that is your job? Not for the moment, not for the
moment. So they seem like the most
secure jobs, but everyone else, it's like we're all just
surfing, dancing, scrambling, whatever we're doing, you know?
And I just don't think there's no two people doing it the same
way. OK, so I wanted to talk about
how you use your social media platform because obviously you
are pretty vocal about social commentary where you land in
politics. And I don't think that's super
common when it comes to public figures and even podcasters.
You know, like I try and be really open about where we fall
in my opinion on things because I think that's important.
I think it's important that people know who they're
following and what they're. Consuming.
I like how you do it though, because you, it's almost like to
a casual listener, they wouldn't be alienated by your politics.
You have to listen for a while to actually see the continuity
in your viewpoint. And I think that's, I think you
handle that quite subtly and quite delicately.
Thank you. Thank you.
Well, tell me about your approach to that.
Or do you have an approach to speaking out?
Social pressure is really interesting.
There are certain inflection points in social dialogue where
we hit a point where you do have to pick a side with things.
And I'm kind of, I'm becoming increasingly tolerant of
allowing that moment to come organically because I think
sometimes for things to change it's important to speak at the
right time. Just jumping in with your
opinion on every single thing is not necessarily the way to be
most useful, particularly as I've become more and more of an
advocate for the arts, particularly Australian music,
and not not in a nationalistic way.
This is a way that something some people really don't
understand this though, because there are people, there are kids
and young people who have grown up in an online world that go,
who cares where it came from? Why do we have to?
And I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint because in a utopian
sense, I agree with them. But I also believe in scenes
have power. I believe in scenes and I
believe in the mutual support that comes through scenes.
That's why I connected with you. I knew you were working in
Sydney and you were doing interesting work in media and I
was like, this is an ally of mine.
This is someone who I want to support what she's doing.
You know, in some ways I can just like put my money where my
mouth is and support artists that have interesting
viewpoints. It's not my place to say why
it's important, it just is important to me.
So I want to listen to music from people that have different
outlooks cuz I don't know that's that's why I enjoy art.
OK, So what is it like having a teenage daughter?
I imagine it's actually probably in some ways easier for you to
relate to her because you are so chronically online.
Yeah, well, in some ways I found that like I I kind of got on
TikTok because my daughter and my stepdaughter were on it.
And I really like being able to have commonality in our
dialogue. I like to know, I like to
understand the jokes. I like to know the references.
I think that yes, while I'm sure that sitting and reading
together would probably be in the grand scheme of things, a
healthier trait than sitting looking at Tik Toks together, I
think that there is when you look at the big picture of
connecting with your kids, you know, I'm a big fan of like punk
rock and Malcolm McLaren. And like, like there was this
whole idea that like you have to speak the language of your
generation if you want to be in media.
You can't put yourself in an ivory tower.
You know, you have to be in dialogue.
And I think for me, it's helped with not only my career but also
my parenting. Our friend Nomi Fry from The New
Yorker, she said she was talking about she's raising a teenager,
too. And she said, I don't know, Are
we just becoming addicts together?
Is that what parenting is now? And that may be true, but there
is something about the willingness to sit in hell if we
are in hell with your kids and go, I'm not abandoning you in
hell. I'm gonna sit next to you in
hell, and I'm not gonna say, oh, you're on your own in there.
Yeah. So I kind of think of it like
that, Like maybe we are in hell, but you know what I'm gonna
stand by you for? It I'm interested to hear a
little bit more. I know you already touched on
it, but a little bit more about your work within Australian
music. Can you talk about, I suppose,
why you're so passionate about that and the work that you've
been doing? Well, I guess it stems from the
idea like my first opportunities came from other artists.
So I got signed my band. We had like a, you know, lofi
band in the 90s and we got signed to Sonic Youth's label
and the Beastie Boys label. They were artists, run labels.
So I came into the industry with a belief and a lived experience
that the end goal of getting a platform was using it to share
it with young artists you believed in.
I just was like, that's the point.
Yeah. And then I don't know.
That's just like a punk thing. And it's, it's like, and but
it's not just punk. Like even like, you know, it
came from folk music, like Joan Baez bringing up Bob Dylan and
like, and Bob Dylan turning people onto Woody Guthrie.
And you know, just like the whole there was just like a
constant idea of like, let me show you like Nirvana going.
But do you know the Pixies? Do you know Daniel Johnston?
Do you know Shannon Knife? The idea was that all culture
could be any, any particular point of culture could be an
entry point to a life changing exploration.
That's how I've always viewed the music industry and culture.
I started this kind of like when I was young, like I would like,
we'd have a show and I'd always be like, wow, who were the cool
bands I can get to open? Who can I share on my Myspace in
my top 8 or whatever it was on Myspace.
Like that. That idea of like having a
platform and using it to turn people on to cool shit was
always the dream. But yeah, I just always assumed
that that was the point. And as I've gotten to meet more
people that like, Oh no, they actually want to gatekeep their
own success and their audiences. And like, I look at artists and
how little they share other people's work on their social
media. Like, OK, I get it.
Not the main grid. I get it.
That's why you have a story.
Share singles that come out by your friends, share their tour
dates. Like, why wouldn't you like
share the wealth? The more it's like, you know, a
rising tide type thing. It's like we really can.
Like, I mean, this is like just a punk thing.
It's like you rise together. So anyway, as I've gotten older,
I sort of started to realize that my platform is like a real
thing now. It's not the biggest in the
world, but to be honest with you, I've never tried to make my
platform the biggest in the world.
I've just tried to make it really cool.
Like, I've always cared more about how cool my audience were
and how like, like who they were rather than how many they were.
And so it just very organically happened.
And then when we were living in LA, around the early 2000s in LA
was a really interesting time because Aussies, we, I don't
know, we, it's sort of like everyone started like this
network of people supporting each other really banded
together. So every weekend there would be
barbecues and it would be like Keith Ledger and Rose Byrne and
Joel Edgerton and then Missy Higgins and like all the bands
and Sarah Blasco and everyone was coming through.
And it really was like, you had a few people's numbers.
You called when you got to LA and you were brought into the
fold. It was assumed that if you were
there, you needed community. And then online almost like
dissipated that like it stopped being as much a thing because
you didn't have people's numbers anymore.
You were just like D Ming and all that kind of stuff.
And so I really like when bands started coming, I started being
like, oh, you know what, let's have some people over Cub sport
are coming to town. Let's throw a little pool party
for them. And then it became like, oh,
this young producer Nina Jirachi's coming.
Let's let's throw a little party in her house and she can DJ and
Amel and the sniffers are coming.
And we, we just started doing it and it started having these
really like tangible effects where like Amal and the
sniffers, it was like their first tour of America.
And like Beck came to our house and Reggie Watts and Nick Zenner
from the airs and everyone watched them play.
And you kind of went like, oh, this is like actually helpful.
And so I just started realizing like this is a thing, you know,
and, and honestly, like the last Aria awards for people
internationally, I know we have a, we have a big international
audience and that's our Grammys type thing.
But the Arias are like a, it's like a traditional kind of
thing. So there's like the old world
and then there's all the young bucks, you know, coming in.
And I was like the only artist standing between the two worlds.
And it was the year of Amel and the sniffers and in a Gerachi,
who were both artists that I put a lot of energy and love into
supporting and sharing and I experienced it.
It's so funny. There's a Yiddish word, Nachus,
And it's like, I actually got like the joy of other people's
success. Like, really.
Like Nina said to me, you know, after she won all her awards,
we're having a little moment on the side.
And she said, Ben, you know that session because we did a little
recording session. She's like the session at your
house where we write the song All I Am.
She's like, that was the start of my album.
And that session made me feel ready to make my album.
And this is the album that did so well.
And she's like, thank you. I genuinely mean that.
And I said, listen, I have never been tangentially involved with
a project that had this much undeniable momentum.
Thank you for letting me bear witness to this because it has
blown my mind. Like, once you see that happen
and it's real and you realize how much hype there is in, like,
you're trying, like, a lot of show business is like talking up
success and like pretending it's happening when it's not.
And then you see it really happening.
You're like, oh, and so that you'd, like changed my life.
But that night of the Arias, I realized like, oh, this isn't in
my imagination. Like I can be part of.
And I don't want this to sound like, I don't want to be like A
and I'm not trying to be like a king maker where I'm like
selecting, Oh, you're good, You're not you're.
But the stuff I like, I want to throw my weight behind it
because it's meaningful. And so anyway, in a broad sense,
that's really all I'm doing. But some of that is also now
starting to look at the functioning of the industry
because I don't know how much you know about all the
conversations going on about Spotify.
Spotify has had a very interesting effect on
international markets. Non-english speaking markets
have seen their music, domestic music skyrocket because to the
ear of people in that country, it's identifiable on their
streaming services. So they go, if you're in Sweden,
you want to hear a Swedish language music and you'd be
like, I'm going to listen to Sweden.
And then one artist leads to another.
If you're in Australia or England, you don't know whether
you're being fed Australian music, American Music, or
British music. And basically in Australia and
in England, our music industries are being completely
marginalized as we are being bombarded with American Music.
I love American Music. Obviously, American Music is
like the best music has ever been made.
But we don't realize what we're losing, right?
So I've gotten a little bit more involved in that.
And again, to come back to that Gen.
Z argument of, well, what's the difference?
Yes, when you're listening to Spotify, what's the difference?
Who cares? But when you're 16 and want to
go and jump in a mosh pit for the first time and want to like
get all your aggression out and want to go buy AT shirt from a
band that has to be a local artist.
Yeah, That's not going to be Chapel Rd.
Yeah, yeah. That's going to be a band called
a gang called Speed playing the like the local hardcore show or
RMFC or like one of these younger bands.
So like, so I just, I feel that we are in danger of losing a
very hands on tangible cultural touchstone if we don't support
our local scenes. Also for the artists themselves,
they need to be able to see, you know, that they can make it and
not have to move to the US, right?
That's. Right.
Yeah, yeah. And and also there's so many
industries like, look, what we're doing right now is
theoretically trickle down effect from people spending a
lot of money at corporations that give you content to talk
about, right? You know, so like there's from
nightlife leads to like restaurants and bars and buskers
and Uber drivers. And like there's to keep a city
vibrant, which, you know, Sydney has really had like the
nightlife beaten out of it over the last two decades.
And now there's a real effort to bring it back.
And you know, I'm hearing a lot of people saying like Sydney's
coming back, like they're investing a lot of money in
nightlife, but you got to have local, local passion, local
talent, local opportunity and all the local industries that
come along with it. Yeah, I love that.
OK. Well the last question that I
have for you is tell me how you touch grass.
How do I touch grass I feel? Like you're always touching
grass. Yeah.
I mean, OK. So I guess I'm going to be a
little more macro and say that when I was younger, I was really
obsessed with spiritual practices like meditation and
psychedelics and retreats and all this stuff.
Because I used to believe that like you had to touch grass in a
very literal way in order to counteract the very literal way
we lose ourselves to modern stress and everything and
whatever. And I think my personal belief
is that nowadays the way I think about spirituality, say, is that
the practice is life. There's no separate thing,
right? I'm not sure if thinking about
touching grass as something that happens outside of our
relationship to technology or anything is that useful anymore.
Because in a way, all aspects of our life are part of the same
dance. So for me, it's more a moment to
moment thing. Like I saw a really, you might
have seen I put on my Instagram story the other day that I got.
So it's great TikTok, you know, that one going around of like
the girl saying hi, hi to people, like liking their
Instagram stories. Like that's touching grass to
me. Yeah, OK.
Touching grass is actual connection.
And that can happen in the digital world.
It can happen in the analog world, it can happen in nature,
it can happen in the city. It's saying that like, I see
you, do you see me? I see you, hi, you know, and
just the very simple human to human thing of saying hi to each
other, to ourselves, making that fundamental to the way I use the
Internet. That is kind of what it's all
about for me. And then a separate thing is I
play live music generally two or three nights a week.
My phone is my clock. So it is down there on the floor
next to my sailors, but I'm not picking it up.
I am sweating. I am singing.
I am in an athletic, transcendent moment with an
audience who want to be together in a room.
They don't want to fucking live stream it through beeps.
No shade on beeps. Good on beeps.
But I don't think that can replace live music.
Something that happens in a room.
I love that. And those things like live
music, sex, food, laughter, these things are like they're
innate to who we are. And I think that realness of
feeling, of being a human who feels, just remembering, that's
who we are. And that's the name of the game.
That's an amazing place to live. All right.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Centennial World Podcast Network operates on Gadigal land.
We would like to acknowledge the Gadigal of the Eora Nation, the
traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to
elders both past and present.