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Hello, hello, hello. 
Welcome to the Yes Indeed 

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podcast created by Mark Shepard,
now run by me, Thomas Manuel. 

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This is a new season because 
it's a new year, 2026. 

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So there is new music, as you 
might have noticed. 

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I know that if you're a regular 
listener to the podcast, the 

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music change probably is a bit 
annoying. 

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Actually, we've had the same 
music for three years now. 

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I don't want to spend too much 
time in a preamble right up top,

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but I took out this podcast in 
2023, which means that in 2026 I

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would have run it longer than 
Marks. 

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The original created it. 
They ran it for three years. 

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I've ran it for three years. 
This is my fourth year doing 

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this. 
So that's kind of a big deal. 

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And the podcast has grown. 
It's gone from a show with 

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hundreds of listeners to a show 
with thousands of listeners. 

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Low thousands, very low 
thousands, but still thousands. 

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And that's cool. 
And I thought it merited a 

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change in the music. 
I sometimes it's just good, the 

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mark of my son with a little 
change. 

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There's some other changes. 
Some of the questions at the end

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have changed. 
Two of them are the same as last

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year and there's a third new 
one. 

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And we are kicking off this new 
season with a very cool guest. 

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We are talking to, Tim Denny, 
designer of Blade 68. 

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Blade 68 is an expansion on 
Blades in the Dark and it 

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really, I think captures what 
Tim Denny really does well as a 

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designer. 
He has transformed the city from

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something gritty and covered in 
darkness, a City made for crime 

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in many ways, into a city that 
is colourful and shiny but the 

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same time also made for crime. 
But it's now a city of secrets, 

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a city where there is a lot of 
pomp and show, but the same old 

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nastiness and some new nastiness
hides under the surface. 

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And that fits really well with 
Tinderney's writing style, which

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has this sort of like 
understated quality. 

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Just like his design has this 
minimalist quality, the writing 

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has this sort of like playful, 
understated quality. 

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He's always making jokes, but 
it's a very understated sense of

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humour that often things left 
unsaid. 

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So yes, a lovely conversation 
with him. 

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I hope you enjoy listening to 
it. 

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But before we get to that, a big
thank you once again to my 

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patrons over at 
patreon.com/india RPG once more 

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as we enter this new season. 
My patrons support both this 

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podcast and the new setter and I
really appreciate that doing 

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this with full time job, not 
great. 

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It eats up my weekends. 
It eats up my some of my 

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weekdays also, but mostly it 
eats up my weekends. 

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And having the patrons there 
sort of reminds me that OK, like

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people still, people still want 
this. 

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So thank you one and all. 
And with that said, let's get to

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the interview. 
And I am sitting down with Tim 

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Dunais, Wellington based graphic
designer, illustrator and game 

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designer. 
Tim's graphic design work has 

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been recognised by a bunch of 
awards, the best awards, Tokyo 

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Design Week, the International 
Society of Typographic 

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Designers. 
He's also the co-author of We 

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Are Here and Atlas of our the 
ROA which was shortlisted for 

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the Arkham NZ Book Awards as a 
game designer through his label 

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Old Dog Games. 
He's published a bunch of free 

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RPG supplements, which are 
really cool that people should 

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know about, like a hack of Band 
of Blades for the Warhammer Old 

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World, and last year, a hack of 
product 2000 reskin to play 

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Andor, the Star Wars sci-fi TV 
show. 

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And of course, he's the 
designer, partnered with Evil 

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Hat to release Deathmatch 
Island, the battle Royale 

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adaptation of John Harper and 
Sean Nettner's Agon. 

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And crowdfunding. 
Soon we will see Blade 68, an 

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expansion for Blades in the Dark
again by John Harper. 

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Very excited to talk to you, 
Tim. 

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Welcome to the show. 
Kyra Thomas, thanks for having 

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me. 
What a pleasure. 

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I want to start by talking to 
you about your work that is not 

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game design because I think this
is sort of what people I think 

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notice first about your work, 
that it has this sort of like 

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tremendous confidence and skill 
in its, in its graphic design 

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and it's in its layout. 
So could you tell me a little 

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bit about the kinds of jobs 
you've done in that sort of like

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art direction, illustration, 
that side of your career? 

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I mean, I guess it's worth 
saying I studied graphic design 

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at university degree. 
They called it visual 

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communication design, which I 
used to think was like an 

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overcooked description of 
graphic design. 

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But actually now that I'm in 
doing this game design stuff, I 

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find that quite useful as a 
description because it's I'm not

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just doing the graphics for the 
book. 

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I am thinking about how the 
visuals can communicate in the 

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same way the writing can. 
It's trying to, it's all just 

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different ways of trying to 
communicate in what's in my 

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brain. 
So yeah, so I did that degree 

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and the kind of major, if you 
like, the focus for me was 

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typography, but I did dabble in 
sort of illustration and 

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animation and some other stuff. 
So that was kind of my studies. 

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And then I worked at a big 
branding company for a while 

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doing kind of corporate 
branding, but it was pretty big 

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clients and pretty big budgets. 
I didn't like that job very 

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much, to be honest, but I didn't
last very long. 

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But I learned a lot. 
And again, I think that's being 

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quite influential in my game 
design because. 

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The big. 
A big thing there was the 

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emphasis on holistic designs. 
So they had full time writers in

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the office and full time like 
what were called experienced 

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designers, not just the graphic 
design, but what happens when 

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you have an issue and you make a
complaint or something like how 

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do you make that complaint and 
what's the experience like? 

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What's the experience like in a 
store? 

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And I again, I think that's all 
sort of game design relevant in 

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that you're not just thinking 
about how you design the visuals

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for the game, but yet the 
experience obviously, and the 

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writing and how those things can
all combine into some kind of 

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coherent thing that was 
branding. 

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So it was like, it might be for,
I'm trying to think of an 

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example, something as dry as an 
electric fencing company, 

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something I worked on. 
But it's like, what does this 

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electric fencing company, how 
does it differentiate itself 

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from competitors? 
What is it trying to 

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communicate? 
And how can it communicate that 

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across everything, not just in 
the way it uses words and what 

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it says, but also how the 
visuals look and all these other

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sort of touch points, as they 
were called, not to sound really

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corporate, but yeah. 
So I learned a lot there, but I 

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hated it. 
And then after that I worked for

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a digital agency and that was 
doing well, websites and stuff, 

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but also we did a lot of work 
for museums. 

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So what we called like digital 
experiences and again, quite 

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game adjacent really it was if 
you've ever been to a museum, 

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which I'm sure everyone has, 
digital experiences, you're 

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probably familiar with these 
things. 

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They're all sorts of they're 
basically a little bit gimmicky,

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dare I say, but often game like 
ways, especially when I was 

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working ways of engaging younger
people in the museum environment

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was a big part of it. 
So like I remember working on a 

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Gallipoli exhibition and we our 
piece of it was this interactive

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screen that showed a life-size 
slow motion X-ray of different 

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First World War weapons was 
pretty gruesome, but you could 

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push a button and it would show 
the effect of shrapnel on 

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someone or the effect of a 
gunshot. 

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Wow, that's really gruesome. 
OK. 

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Yeah, yeah, for sure. 
And yeah, it's all X-rays. 

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You could see the internal 
bleeding and yeah. 

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And we say gruesome, but it's 
also like the killer feature of 

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Sniper Elite 6. 
You know what? 

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I. 
Mean yeah, yeah, Mortal Kombat, 

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yeah, for sure. 
And this was nominally 

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educational. 
Yeah. 

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So there's a lot of stuff like 
that. 

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And another example was like 
these, you walk past a big 

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screen and these fireflies 
follow you, motion tracking, 

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touchscreen type stuff. 
So very varied and interesting 

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and again, a lot of like game 
adjacent stuff, I think 

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interactive media I guess. 
And then while I was at that 

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job, I met this guy Chris 
McDowell, who's a geographer and

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data visualisation guy, and he 
was working on a big Atlas of 

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Altiora, New Zealand. 
It was very early stages. 

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And to cut a Long story short, 
he brought me on board to do the

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visual design of that. 
And as AI think, it was quite 

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insightful of him to think that 
many people would bring on a 

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designer at the end to gloss 
everything up. 

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But he wanted a graphic 
designer, visual designer as a 

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co-author, created co-author and
Co creator of the Atlas. 

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And so I came on very early in 
that capacity and worked with 

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them on that boat for five 
years. 

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It was a bit of a labour of 
love. 

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That was yeah, a lot of data 
visualisation as well as a lot 

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of maps. 
And that's where I got 

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interested in maps and pretty 
cool result. 

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I think if you Google, we are 
here Atlas Altiora, you'll find 

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pictures and there's some really
fascinating stuff in the I sort 

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of feel free to say that because
of Chris's so many co-authors. 

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So I'm not I'm not big up any of
my own work. 

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Yeah, it's out of print. 
But that was a really cool 

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project and they went for five 
years and out the back of that I

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fell into my current role, which
is working for a geospatial sort

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of portal company. 
So again, it's mapping stuff. 

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This is more like product 
design, tech design, but yeah, 

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there's that kind of stuff. 
And then on the side the whole 

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way through, always, it had my 
little side hobby gig. 

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So I did like corporate 
illustration for a while, which 

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is where I have some facility 
for illustration, I suppose, for

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my own games, like using that 
same skill. 

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And I did a bunch of book covers
and obviously I do my own book 

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covers now. 
Yeah, all these little kind of 

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Jack of all trade, graphic 
design adjacent things that sort

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of added up that I can bring 
into this kind of game design 

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sphere. 
Yeah, I remember when you 

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released the and or reskin for 
Twilight 2000, I joked that 

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you've worked for 20 years so 
you could give us this free PDF 

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because that's right. 
But like this PDF that I could 

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download off Google for some 
reason looked like looked this 

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good. 
But yeah, I want to I want to 

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talk about both of your comments
about saying that working in 

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experience design was something 
that is relevant to your game 

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design work. 
And also I want to talk about 

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whether this like whether you're
approach to graphic design, do 

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you think that you have a 
specific style you're working in

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and the ideas you come up with 
are working within an aesthetic 

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that you enjoy? 
We'll come back to the first 

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question, but I think one of the
one of the things that people 

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constantly remark about 
Deathmatch Island and you had a 

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great thread about it, was that 
like the sense of what it means 

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to say that it looks corporate, 
you know what I mean? 

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And you had a great thread 
talking about the typography, 

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the typography choices you made 
and all of that stuff. 

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And Blades in 68 has a certain 
similar feeling of, again, 

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because I don't have the right 
language to talk about it. 

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That's like modern. 
Yeah, mid centuries, yeah. 

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For sure. 
And this is happening at a time 

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I think where even people like 
me who don't know a lot about 

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graphic design see this trend 
primarily with tech companies 

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where their idea of good graphic
design is to get more boring, 

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right? 
Like you know what I'm talking 

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about this feeling of we had 
three colours before and that 

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was 2 colours too many. 
So yeah, how do you do you think

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that you have a design aesthetic
and these ideas fit into that or

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or are you like only working on 
the ideas that you think 

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complement your skill set? 
Yeah, that's an interesting 

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question. 
I think the boring answer is yes

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or no. 
But if I can, if I can unpack 

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that a bit, the yes is firstly 
to go back to that sort of 

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agency work or any of my client 
work really, You can't. 

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Some designers do have their own
sort of house style, but I think

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most graphic designers, you have
to be able to adapt to different

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brands and different clients. 
And as I was saying before with 

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the experience design stuff, one
day you're working on an 

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electric fence brand for farmers
and the next day it's means 

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tailoring for young people and 
the next day it's something else

226
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,520
entirely, insurance or whatever 
it is. 

227
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,600
And all of these have very 
different tones of voice and 

228
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,760
very different visual languages 
and very different mood boards. 

229
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,040
And you have to be able to just 
slip into that and mimic it. 

230
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,360
And I think I'm, I think I can 
do that. 

231
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,960
I can work in a lot of different
styles, I think. 

232
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,080
And I find that fun. 
And I find it fun to change 

233
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,760
styles. 
The designer Michael Beirut, I 

234
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,960
forget what he said in a blog 
post a long time ago, he said 

235
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,840
graphic design is love 
authenticity, so much like 

236
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,680
finding things at a flea market 
or zenes things like this 

237
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,320
because they're so good at aping
it. 

238
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,160
So it's your ability to fake it 
that makes you really appreciate

239
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,560
the genuine article. 
And I think that's really true 

240
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,680
of me. 
The first I remember when I got 

241
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,560
back into RPG, something that 
drew me in and really appealed 

242
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:52,280
to me was the anti design of a 
lot of the this is like 2015 or 

243
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:53,880
something. 
So things have become a lot more

244
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,160
polished since then, but 
especially the early RPG stuff 

245
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,600
is very like, yeah, anti 
designed and has this very 

246
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,960
trying to think of a nice way of
saying like, you know, terrible 

247
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,520
aesthetic, but I love it and 
it's very authentic and 

248
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,120
unmanned. 
And there's a lot of appeal in 

249
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,480
that. 
And that has been mined by the 

250
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,000
OSR and others since then. 
And but that was a big appeal to

251
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,760
me was that. 
But then I come in and as 

252
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,400
Michael Beirut was alluding to, 
like the graphic designer comes 

253
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,600
in and then destroys all their 
authenticity with it, with their

254
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,080
professional Polish and all the 
rest of it. 

255
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,240
But it is what it is. 
So in that sense, I think I can 

256
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,920
work in multiple styles and I 
enjoy that. 

257
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,520
And I've never done a fantasy 
game. 

258
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,920
And a part of me would love the 
challenge just to see if I can 

259
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,000
do something engaging and 
different, just because there 

260
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,600
are so many fantasy games and it
feels impossible to think of 

261
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,360
something different, something 
that would grab attention. 

262
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,080
But I think that'll be a fun 
challenge maybe one day. 

263
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,280
But so that's the yes part of 
the answer. 

264
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,160
But then the no part is I have a
day job and client work and 

265
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,360
stuff and games are my outlet. 
And so when I'm working on game 

266
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,680
design projects, of course I do 
choose projects that I'm most 

267
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,440
excited about. 
My personal preferences. 

268
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,880
I already have client work where
I have to match their style. 

269
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,720
Deathmatch Island was like 50% 
the idea of what the game would 

270
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,360
be and 50% anaesthetic that I 
could visualise. 

271
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,320
And I'm like, I've never seen a 
game that looks like this, so I 

272
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,160
want to make that game. 
Yeah, Deathmatch Island was a 

273
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:26,480
real sort of virtuoso effort in 
like graphic design humour as 

274
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,280
well. 
There were just a lot of things 

275
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,640
that were just like, like I'm 
thinking about like a bag of 

276
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,120
potatoes with the word potatoes 
with nonette or something. 

277
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,280
Like it was just, it was, there 
was a sense, there was a sense 

278
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,400
of humour about that book. 
I think that also really drew 

279
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,160
people like into it. 
And I think this is also me even

280
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,720
I started with talking about 
your graphic design. 

281
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,760
I think that is not to discredit
all the writing that you do that

282
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,840
is so sharp. 
But yeah, go on, go on. 

283
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,080
Yeah, the other thing I would 
say is if anyone is looking for 

284
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,680
an aesthetic for a game, there's
a lot of merit in doing 

285
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,480
something that nobody else is 
doing, because RPGs do occupy a 

286
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,200
pretty narrow space. 
A lot of it is fantasy, and even

287
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,520
outside of that there tends to 
be pretty similar aesthetics. 

288
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,120
Same things crop up again and 
again. 

289
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,000
So if you can look at graphic 
design outside of RPGs and find 

290
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,920
a style you've never seen 
applied to an RPG, you instantly

291
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,480
get attention just for looking a
bit different. 

292
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,000
And that is something I try to 
do. 

293
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,120
Yeah, but I think it's 
coincidence. 

294
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,440
Just to go on a little bit more,
it's a coincidence that Blaze 

295
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,760
and Six Blaze 68 and Deathmatch 
Island, they both are mid 

296
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,160
century games with quite a there
are commonalities in the 

297
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,000
aesthetic and and they both use 
a lot of orange and yeah, but I 

298
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,240
think that's coincidental. 
How would you describe the I 

299
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,840
definitely want to come back to 
the part where you would like, 

300
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,160
oh, I have a day job and I'm 
making these games on the site 

301
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,880
because I think that's a threat 
to follow. 

302
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,720
But like, how would you describe
the visual identity of Blade 68?

303
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,960
Maximalist is how I would 
describe it. 

304
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:06,800
Yeah, Blades in the Dark is very
restrained. 

305
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,319
It's all black and white. 
I don't own many RPG books like 

306
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,680
it could be in colour, but it is
all black and white. 

307
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,960
It has these parameters which I 
think are great. 

308
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,480
Early on, the excitement of 
Blade 68 for me was to try and 

309
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,359
make something that visually 
looks like Blades in the Dark 

310
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,640
and looks related, but is at the
other end of that spectrum and 

311
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,720
is just full of colour and 
noise. 

312
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,240
In the same way that if you 
compared Victorian London to 

313
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,240
1960s London. 
The same kind of contrast, 

314
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:36,560
right? 
Like it's the same place and you

315
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,040
can see the same places in the 
photos. 

316
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,400
But yeah, that that kind of 
maximalism and excitement. 

317
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,560
And how would you contrast your 
use of the word maximalism to 

318
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,320
like what people associate with?
Like mothership for example. 

319
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,160
Visually. 
Yeah. 

320
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,720
Yeah, good question. 
I suppose it's maximalism for 

321
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,120
me, yeah. 
But yeah, I'm like a minimum. 

322
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,440
I am a minimalist at heart. 
So this is as maximalist. 

323
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,480
Maximum. 
Minimalism, Max, Maximal 

324
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,840
minimalism, Yeah. 
I don't have a mothership style 

325
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,640
in me, I don't think. 
I like mothership a lot and I 

326
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,000
like the aesthetics of it. 
I think there are certain parts 

327
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,240
of Blade 68 that you could put 
next to certain covers of a 

328
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,920
mothership and there's a 
relationship there. 

329
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,320
Similarity. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think the 

330
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,520
word psychedelic, for example, I
think Kent could be obliged to 

331
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,680
both, right, Certain styles of 
motherships. 

332
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,080
But yeah, let's go back to that 
thing you said OK, you have the 

333
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,240
stage job and you're working on 
games like on the site. 

334
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,560
For somebody who said that 
statement, it's outrageous how 

335
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,040
many three things you made 
before like deathmatch island, 

336
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,600
right? 
Genuinely like why would you 

337
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,720
like work a design job and then 
in the evening, whatever, sit 

338
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,520
down and like design. 
For example, that and or hack of

339
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,640
Twilight 2000. 
Did it just grab you and you had

340
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,000
to excise it? 
Yeah, that is differently, the 

341
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,800
impulse. 
Sometimes an idea comes to you 

342
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,360
on this. 
I have to do this thing, the 

343
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,400
indoor thing. 
I had no idea if anyone would 

344
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,560
play it or wants it. 
And certainly I can never charge

345
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,680
money for it or anything. 
So it's like folly from top to 

346
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,080
bottom. 
But yeah, the idea came to me 

347
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,880
and it just grabbed me for 
whatever reason. 

348
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,440
So it's, yeah, I just had, I had
to do it. 

349
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,520
I guess the reason for that is 
that I find it fun. 

350
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,840
I wouldn't do it if I didn't 
find it fun. 

351
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,520
And I think the contrast to the 
day job is the important part. 

352
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,960
Working in any graphic design 
job, you're either working for a

353
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,000
boss or clients with other 
people. 

354
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,160
It's all collaboration and 
compromise. 

355
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,040
And I don't mean to sound anti 
collaboration and compromise, 

356
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,880
but that naturally brings like 
frustrations, especially as a 

357
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,320
creative. 
And for me, games are an outlet 

358
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,160
where I get to just make my own 
weird thing and there's no one 

359
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,920
to tell me to change this or 
that at a certain point. 

360
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,320
I work with Evilhead now and 
there are these cheques and 

361
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,040
balances, but basically this is 
where I could just do my own 

362
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,320
weird thing and it's really 
liberating and cathartic. 

363
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,760
So I mentioned too, I mentioned 
the band of blades little thing 

364
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,200
that you made, which is like a 
new map and some kind, some 

365
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,880
supplementary like text to that.
I mentioned the Android thing, 

366
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,200
but you've done others like. 
What else comes to mind when you

367
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,800
were like? 
I want to give this as a sense 

368
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,800
of what you did before 
Deathmatch Island. 

369
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,720
So there's dogs in the back, 
which is maybe the stupidest 

370
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,680
one, which is just based on a 
pun basically, but it's about 

371
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,880
playing dogs and Blades in the 
Dark industrial. 

372
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,680
There is Star Wars reskin of 
Scum and Villainy. 

373
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,320
So if you want to play Scum and 
Villainy, which is already a 

374
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,440
Star Wars game, but actually in 
Star Wars, there's maps and 

375
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,880
character sheets for all 20 and 
all these factions and stuff. 

376
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,240
Yeah, a lot of them. 
Ways to play an existing game 

377
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,560
with a big IP that would never 
sign up like another one is 

378
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,800
Blades in the Dark for Nick 
Ramunda by Games Workshop, which

379
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,240
is a fun one. 
Fun fun fit. 

380
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,440
Called Blades in the Under hive.
That's it. 

381
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,160
Yeah. 
So those are the game ones. 

382
00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,000
There's probably some others I'm
forgetting it a bunch of never 

383
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,520
found a good name for them but 
illustrated actual plays kind of

384
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,080
comics about. 
Different games? 

385
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,400
Was it 1000? 
Year Old Thousand Year Old 

386
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,240
Vampire was the biggest one I 
did, yeah, but I did some for 

387
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,160
Aegon and Last Tea Shop and 
yeah, some other ones. 

388
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,680
Those are really cool. 
I will you don't have a page 

389
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,120
where all of these are linked. 
Oh no, I do. 

390
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,880
If you go to 
www.olddog.gamesandthen. 

391
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,120
OK OK, I will link that in the. 
Description and the top menu is 

392
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,800
like actual place. 
And so there is this. 

393
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,080
There is this sort of very clear
sort of inspiration that you've 

394
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,200
gotten from John Harper's work. 
When did that start? 

395
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,720
What was the trigger for this? 
And why has that been so 

396
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,960
fruitful that you've gone back 
to it like so many Times Now? 

397
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,800
Yeah, it's a good question. 
It's one I have thought about, 

398
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,880
I'm sure. 
I'm sure you've been asked as 

399
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:53,880
well. 
Yeah, for sure. 

400
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,280
In terms of where it started, I 
didn't back the Blades in the 

401
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,480
Dark Kickstart or anything. 
I think I learned about it from 

402
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,200
friends at the table when they 
were doing Mary Elder, which was

403
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,200
2017 or something like that. 
Forget exactly. 

404
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,480
So I came in via that and I 
don't know, I just really 

405
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,560
enjoyed it. 
And I do think John obviously is

406
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,160
a graphic designer and there's a
both a strong visual 

407
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,960
sensibility. 
But again, I think I wouldn't 

408
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,560
just say John Harper designs 
games that have good graphic 

409
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,840
design and look good. 
I would say there is a 

410
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,920
sensibility about the way they 
design character sheets and the 

411
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,240
way the play systems interact 
with the character sheet. 

412
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,400
Like it's more just, it's more 
than just how the game looks. 

413
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,240
There's a an integration of 
design thinking throughout the 

414
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,640
whole game and all the play 
aids. 

415
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,080
And that really appealed to me. 
And I guess I'm obviously from a

416
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,400
similar background and so. 
Can you give me an example of 

417
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,080
something about the design that 
jumped out that you've to go 

418
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,760
back to that word like 
experience design, Something 

419
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,200
that jumped out like in that 
context, if you were like I, I 

420
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,040
like the thought process behind 
this. 

421
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,360
Yeah, I think a good one is the 
character sheets in Blades in 

422
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:09,000
the Dark, something it took me a
while to click, but there's 

423
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,400
actually very few, if any, in 
fact, places where you just 

424
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,360
write a number. 
A lot of character sheets are 

425
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:20,840
like name, maybe a place to draw
your picture notes box and then 

426
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,920
these boxes and you're meant to 
put like 15/16/12 and it's 

427
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,440
incredibly dry. 
And when you look at that 

428
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,400
character sheet before it's 
filled in, it's just some boxes.

429
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,920
Even if it's nicely designed 
boxes, it's just some boxes. 

430
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:37,680
Whereas the blades in the dark 
sheet, everything is like tick 

431
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,800
boxes or cross out boxes. 
And I just find that much more 

432
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,560
enjoyable to interact with. 
And I think it's a much better 

433
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,160
affordance because for example 
with actions, they Max out four 

434
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,640
and you can see there's 4 little
dots and you colour in the dots.

435
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,920
And so you're learning things 
about the system through the 

436
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,800
design of the character sheet 
and it's more immediately 

437
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,160
engaging. 
It's showing you where these 

438
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,320
numbers go up to where you 
begin. 

439
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,640
The the coin metre goes to a 
lot. 

440
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,280
So you kind of get the 
impression I can get up to 40 

441
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600
coin or whatever, I can have up 
to five in my pockets. 

442
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,520
And the way these different 
boxes all have different shapes,

443
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:17,720
they're not all just check 
boxes. 

444
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,320
So the XP boxes a little like 
sharp teeth, little blades. 

445
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,040
The stress box is different. 
Yeah, exactly. 

446
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,040
And so you kind of learn 
subconsciously without thinking 

447
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,120
about it too much. 
Everywhere I see this, it means 

448
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,840
I can mark XP there. 
And everywhere I see that that 

449
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,040
means XYZ action, dots, circles,
coiner squares, yeah, that kind 

450
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,920
of thing. 
So that I mean that that feels 

451
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,800
like good, like you said, 
graphic design and information 

452
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,320
design. 
But are you, do you think that 

453
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:55,080
thinking like that sort of for 
you at least, let's not try to 

454
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,240
guess how John Harper worked, 
But for you, Elise, is that 

455
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,800
simultaneous? 
Are you? 

456
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,360
Are you? 
When you think about mechanics, 

457
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,680
are you thinking about them in a
way of they have to be 

458
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,840
representable, communicable, 
like together? 

459
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,640
Yeah, for sure. 
And yeah, again, I won't speak 

460
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,440
for John, but yeah, I think he 
does this as well, which is as 

461
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,280
early as possible designing the 
character sheets. 

462
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,160
So not designing the game first 
and then later on coming to do 

463
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,560
the character sheet, but yeah, I
will often start with the 

464
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,200
character sheet and kind of move
things around there and try to 

465
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,200
get a sense of it. 
And so you're fitting the 

466
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,000
character sheet to the mechanics
you have in mind, but you're 

467
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,680
also starting to shape the 
mechanics to what would work on 

468
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,840
the character sheet. 
And there's definitely hand in 

469
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,960
glove kind of process there for 
sure. 

470
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,920
Can you give me an example of 
something that started at on a 

471
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,600
character sheet? 
Yeah, Blades and 68 is a pretty 

472
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,640
good example actually with. 
So there's these keys and 

473
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,160
deadlocks system where instead 
of trauma, which in Blades when 

474
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,280
you run out of stress, you mark 
a trauma, you can mark up to 

475
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,960
four and then you have to 
retire. 

476
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,120
It's pretty, pretty simple and 
elegant. 

477
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,360
I changed that in Blade 68 to 
this keys and deadlocks system. 

478
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,600
So you start with keys, which 
are character traits used in 

479
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,880
lots of other games. 
And then when you run out of 

480
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,160
stress, you turn one of these 
keys and it becomes a deadlock 

481
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,480
instead, which is kind of like a
trauma and impediment. 

482
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,000
And a lot of the details of 
that, the number of keys and 

483
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,080
deadlocks you get and the way 
you mark the little box in 

484
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,080
between, they're sort of 
informed by the visual design. 

485
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,680
Like I put that on the sheet 
before I finish the mechanic. 

486
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,480
And then there was definitely. 
It's not to say I designed the 

487
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,000
visual 1st and then the mechanic
came from it, but it wasn't long

488
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600
after thinking about it that I 
put something down to see if it 

489
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,280
would work on the sheet. 
So off the top of my head, I 

490
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,320
think there are, it's not the 
same number of trauma and 

491
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,280
deadlock, right is it? 
Do we have 5-6 keys in Blade 68?

492
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,080
Like how many? 
It is actually the same number. 

493
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,160
It's the same number. 
Yeah. 

494
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,920
OK, OK, OK. 
But. 

495
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,240
The relationship of keys to 
deadlocks. 

496
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,520
Like the one to one 
relationship. 

497
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,880
A lot of it was informed by how 
much space is on the character 

498
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,920
sheet. 
OK. 

499
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,480
So right now the way it works is
that like you have these keys, 

500
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,000
which are like personality 
traits or maybe adjectives, 

501
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,160
adverbs, like, yeah, this is how
you as a player think your 

502
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,640
character is. 
And then every time you act like

503
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,640
that, you basically gain XP. 
What is the trigger for making 

504
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,520
it a deadlock either? 
Running out of stress. 

505
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,160
So just like a trauma in blades 
or so it has a few marks next to

506
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,080
it, which again was a graphic 
design decision in part. 

507
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,600
But each time you show it off in
a session, you put a mark next 

508
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,120
to it. 
And once you have 3 marks, like 

509
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,600
you've established this as a 
truth in the fiction through 

510
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,880
play, then having established 
it, you can then go against it. 

511
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,960
So you can what's called turn 
it. 

512
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,480
And so if you were previously 
brave, you can have a moment 

513
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,880
with that of crisis where that 
is called into question. 

514
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,040
And then from that point 
forward, you're no longer brave.

515
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,800
Now you're either an 
intensification or the opposite.

516
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,120
So you might be reckless, for 
example, going forwards, which 

517
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:15,240
is like the intensification of 
bravery, or you might be 

518
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,800
cowardly is the other way to go.
But in this moment, this 

519
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,240
character trait has come under 
stress and you've turned that 

520
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,920
key and your character has 
changed. 

521
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,840
But in that moment, you get you 
clear all your stress and you 

522
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,280
get an instant critical hit. 
So it's players are really 

523
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,280
incentivized to look for these 
dramatic moments to call into 

524
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,640
question kind of fundamental 
traits of who the characters. 

525
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,000
And I think a lot of people have
this issue with Blades. 

526
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,640
I think not this issue, but 
maybe this criticism of Blades 

527
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,960
that it's not very character 
focused. 

528
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,160
You can lose a sense of who your
character is. 

529
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,560
They can be subsumed within the 
grand broader idea of their team

530
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,800
going on a mission. 
And the mission is what is 

531
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,200
important and not really my 
characters like internal life or

532
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,120
whatever. 
And this is a kind of a gentle 

533
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,120
rebalancing. 
Yeah, 100% yeah, for sure. 

534
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,960
And you know, I kind of think 
post Deep Cuts you'd have to 

535
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,600
think about Blades as a very 
modular system. 

536
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,680
In a way. 
I feel like John has canonised 

537
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,680
that idea. 
It was already the Chapter 9 

538
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
which was changing the game and 
had these kind of like house 

539
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,160
rules and things you could 
tweak. 

540
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,520
But Deep Cuts really emphasises 
that John intends that you swap 

541
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,160
things in and out to your tastes
at the table when put in this 

542
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,840
module or pull out that module. 
And so I think there there is a 

543
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,600
lot of that intentionally in 
Blade 68 as well of this is 

544
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,000
still blades. 
But here's a way of changing 

545
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,160
this subsystem that might give 
us different flavour. 

546
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960
And in Blade 68 in particular, 
it's trying to go for a 

547
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160
particular. 
It's not just things that I 

548
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,960
happen to like as a designer. 
It's hopefully adding up to this

549
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,760
kind of slightly lighter, more 
hectic 60s tone, but it is 

550
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,320
intended to be modular in that 
way. 

551
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,000
So if you didn't like the keys 
and deadlock system, I guess you

552
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,000
could go back to trauma, 
whatever. 

553
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,920
Yeah, I was actually surprised 
to find out that Blade's 68. 

554
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,960
You dropped the in. 
I noticed Blade 68 is an 

555
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,520
expansion and not a sequel, 
right? 

556
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,520
It is still not trying to be a 
standalone game. 

557
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,320
How did that decision like come 
about? 

558
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,600
Yeah, that was part of Around 
the Houses. 

559
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,800
On that, there is a draft of a 
full draft of Blade 68, which is

560
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,680
a standalone game, and we did 
look at that off and on. 

561
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,960
In the earliest iteration, it 
was even more of just the kind 

562
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,240
of setting and law stuff with no
mechanical sort of tweaks, and 

563
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,800
it arrived somewhere in the 
middle. 

564
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,560
Those are quite probably the 
most complicated sort of 

565
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,720
discussions in a way around all 
this, because these questions of

566
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,560
what's best at the table, what's
most well supported going 

567
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,960
forward, what's best is like a 
product from a publisher point 

568
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640
of view, and all these kind of 
questions, I'm really happy with

569
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,600
where we ended up. 
For example, if there's ever a 

570
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Blade's second edition, it means
that Blade 68 isn't this weird 

571
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,240
offshoot branch because it's not
its own standalone game. 

572
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,720
So it will be something you 
could play with any future 

573
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,360
developments in Blades in the 
deck, if that makes sense. 

574
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,960
Yeah, that makes sense, of 
course. 

575
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Yeah. 
And yeah, it's also shockingly 

576
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,400
longer than the original game. 
This is bigger than the original

577
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,680
game via pH card. 
How did you do that, Tim? 

578
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,640
Explain how that's even 
possible. 

579
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,280
Well, yeah, accidentally and 
somewhat shamefully partly it 

580
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,080
comes. 
I see that the visuals with an 

581
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,200
excellent list, like I 
intentionally wanted to use a 

582
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,400
lot more colours than I usually 
do and have a lot of vibrancy. 

583
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,080
And I guess I sort of applied 
that same principle to the 

584
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,440
writing and the whole thing 
really is, yeah, it's just more.

585
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,800
I think everything in there is 
good. 

586
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,800
I don't think there's no filler.
I don't think partly it's, for 

587
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,600
example, there are 12 districts 
and Blades in the Dark. 

588
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,480
And so when I came to come up 
with districts, I wanted the 

589
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,560
original 12. 
I didn't want to cut any, but it

590
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,560
made sense to me that the city 
would be a bit larger and that 

591
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,880
there would be new districts. 
And now there's 15 and there 

592
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,560
it's page count because now it's
the same as blades. 

593
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
You got to cover those original 
12 plus, you have to detail 

594
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,160
three more. 
And there's a lot of that kind 

595
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,360
of thing where I wanted to 
update everything in Blades but 

596
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,680
also add in new stuff. 
And so that just means that you 

597
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,640
end up with Blades Plus or 
whatever the district thing is 

598
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,440
another good example of graphic 
design first, where the very 

599
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,680
first thing I did on the game 
was I had my street maps when I 

600
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,080
detailed DOS Falls St maps. 
And when I had this idea of 60s 

601
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,040
Blades, I was something that 
excited me really early on was I

602
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,040
could take these existing maps 
and then restyle them in a 60s 

603
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,160
way. 
And I think they would look 

604
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,960
really cool. 
And that could be really fun 

605
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,200
exercise. 
So that's one of the first 

606
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,680
things I did. 
And as part of that, on the map 

607
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,240
of the Lightning Barriers, which
is such a core part of Blades in

608
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,760
the Dark, it's usually the first
thing people pitch is like 

609
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,480
you're in this Victorian city 
behind lightning barriers 

610
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,960
powered by demon blood or 
whatever. 

611
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,520
It's all very evocative of a 
particular vibe. 

612
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,120
But because of that, I thought I
couldn't keep the lightning 

613
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,000
barriers because they don't 
feel, they feel very industrial 

614
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,840
fantasy and not very 1960s. 
So anyway, I landed on this sort

615
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,640
of bubble force field. 
I was updating the map. 

616
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,560
And so I put a big circle down 
instead of the lightning 

617
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,320
barriers. 
But a circle, the lightning 

618
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,280
barriers are not a circle. 
And so once you put a circle 

619
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:33,680
down, there's all this extra 
land. 

620
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,800
And seeing those like that, 
that's new districts, there's 

621
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,320
new land. 
What what happened to that land?

622
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,280
What did they do with it? 
And so they had to be in new 

623
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,120
districts to fill the land. 
And they had to be that land 

624
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,640
because I wanted a circle 
instead of lightning berries. 

625
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,600
That's really cool. 
And I guess one of the one of 

626
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,880
the big changes then is that 
when you make blades, blade 68 

627
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,640
is you're like like, I want it 
to be more colourful. 

628
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,760
And the whole concept of blades 
is that it's dark all the time. 

629
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,080
And that's really good. 
This is my great, my sort of 

630
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,480
like revelation about place that
it's a city that feels designed 

631
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,600
to do crime in. 
It's like you couldn't design A 

632
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,199
better city to be a criminal 
then. 

633
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,960
But so like you, you decide 
there's going to be colour. 

634
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,920
And so you decide, OK, that 
means the city is different. 

635
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,239
And talk to me about how you 
solve that for how you bring 

636
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,080
colour back into dusk. 
You mean while retaining a City 

637
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,280
made for crime or? 
Basically, I want to know like 

638
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,600
you say that the first idea was 
let's update this map to 60s 

639
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,880
style that includes adding 
colour. 

640
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,080
So at what point do you go, oh, 
I need to fundamentally change 

641
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,480
what life in the city is like 
now, like on a very glandular 

642
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,760
level, like there is going to be
blue skies. 

643
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,600
Like for me, blue time is like a
weird thing that you need to How

644
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,600
did that idea come about? 
That's. 

645
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,800
Like the weirdest lift in the 
game, right? 

646
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,400
Like it needs this whole 
justification. 

647
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,040
So in Blades in the Dark that 
one of the clever things is that

648
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,760
there aren't like plot lines or 
anything, but there are these 

649
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,720
threads through the factions 
that often crop up because 

650
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,000
you're going to encounter these 
factions and they have their own

651
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,760
little things going on. 
And one of the big ones is that 

652
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,640
the Leviathans are going away 
and they are the source of fuel 

653
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,400
for the lightning barriers. 
And so there's existential 

654
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,240
question in the setting baked 
into original Blades of they're 

655
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,360
going to run out of fuel. 
The lightning barriers are the 

656
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,640
only thing that stand between 
civilization and annihilation or

657
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,480
whatever. 
So what's going to happen? 

658
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,480
And that's an unanswered 
question in Blades. 

659
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,160
And so I felt I had to answer 
that. 

660
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,800
If you're going to Fast forward 
100 years, you can't whatever 

661
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,960
the answer in the game. 
And again, I had this bubble 

662
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,240
conceit, which I started with. 
I wanted this force field 

663
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,040
bubble. 
Something I'd always wondered 

664
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,400
about in Blades is that 
Leviathan blood works because 

665
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,960
it's like soul energy or 
something. 

666
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,080
It's electroplasm, which is like
ectoplasm. 

667
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,760
Some demon magic. 
Some demon magic. 

668
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,600
It's demon blood which has all 
this like electrical power for 

669
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,040
whatever reason. 
Yeah, yeah, makes sense to me. 

670
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,920
Yeah, for sure. 
That's science. 

671
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,840
That's science. 
And human souls are also made of

672
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,160
electroplasm, like ghosts are 
electroplasm. 

673
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,600
So it always seemed to me that 
ghosts could also be a fuel 

674
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,920
source. 
So like when I read Blade. 

675
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,440
So I took that idea and they 
invented what is called 

676
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,280
electroplasmic fusion. 
And so instead of using 

677
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,520
Leviathan blood to power 
lightning barriers, they take 

678
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,520
dead people, which they have to 
get rid of anyway to get rid of 

679
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,320
the ghosts, right? 
They have to get rid of the soul

680
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,080
before it becomes a ghost. 
And so rather than just 

681
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,360
annihilating the ghost, they 
figured out how to turn that 

682
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,480
into a fuel source because it is
made of similar stuff to demon 

683
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,160
blood. 
And so everyone's dead bodies 

684
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,080
get sent to this big factory and
turned into power. 

685
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,120
And because it's such an amazing
fusion power source, 

686
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,160
electroplasmic fusion, they can 
generate this big force field 

687
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,680
instead of just lightning 
barriers. 

688
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,680
So they have this big bubble, 
and then there's an experimental

689
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,680
apparatus that someone invented 
that tunes the bubble to make it

690
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,320
blue, like a blue sky. 
And so they have this fake 

691
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,240
daytime, which is wonderful, but
also lurid and a bit vibrant. 

692
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:07,720
Too vibrant, a bit too 
psychedelic. 

693
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,840
And so getting to that question 
you pre empted like how does 

694
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,280
this change the identity of dusk
1? 

695
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,080
I think the thing I would say 
that I tried to keep too is that

696
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,360
the changes are all pretty 
superficial, which is my take on

697
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,640
that sort of 60s optimism and 
excitement. 

698
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,440
There's a lot of 1960s London in
this presentation, I think. 

699
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,800
And when you look at photos of 
videos of 1960s London, the 

700
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,080
thing that strikes me is that 
you have these exciting new 

701
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,960
advertisements and people in 
colourful clothes and neon signs

702
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,680
and whatnot, but behind them are
the same grim brick like 

703
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,640
tenement buildings and Victorian
streets. 

704
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,600
And so it's this kind of veneer 
of of the swinging 60s and all 

705
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,400
this fun and optimism and 
excitement, but it's still on 

706
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,520
the same crumbling, depressing 
foundations, which is like a 

707
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,880
metaphor for the 20th century 
writ large, where we thought it 

708
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,200
was going to be something 
exciting and new, but it's just 

709
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,160
built on the same shitty bones, 
the same mistakes get repeated 

710
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,880
anyway. 
And that felt very fitting for 

711
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,920
blades, which is quite a dark 
setting. 

712
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,560
So it has this veneer of there's
a reason it's a bubble, right? 

713
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,160
Which is easily popped. 
Like it's a, it's this fragile 

714
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,920
thing that's very exciting and 
new. 

715
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:31,200
But it's not to turn this into a
hopeful setting necessarily, 

716
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,720
because it's easy to imagine 
this is all so fragile and so 

717
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,200
thin that it could all just go 
away in an instant. 

718
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,240
I love that. 
I really like that idea that 

719
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:43,280
it's changed, but it's changed 
in the in a form of the facade 

720
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,080
veneer. 
Because one of my favourite 

721
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,880
things when I read the playtest 
material was how the forget 

722
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,200
whether it's section 6 or how 
they, how ghosts are now 

723
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:03,480
described as like anomalies and 
demons are described as level 6 

724
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,400
anomalies and things like that. 
And that was not a thing that 

725
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,080
was like obvious to me what was 
going on even as I was reading 

726
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,160
it right. 
There's this moment of 

727
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,280
realisation as read. 
I'm going like, Oh my God, 

728
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,520
they're just lying about Then 
they're just, they're just lying

729
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,240
about the thing that we know 
because we read Blitz and we 

730
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,560
read Blaze. 
And I feel it's a fun feeling as

731
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,120
a, as a fan of the original game
to be like, oh, it's the same. 

732
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,480
But we're using these nice 
scientific words now to seem 

733
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,480
like we were in control and 
we're aware, and these things 

734
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,640
serve us rather than being like 
sources of inexplicable data. 

735
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,560
Totally. 
It's fun because it's like, by 

736
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,320
knowing the original game you 
were in the know. 

737
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,720
You were like the 60s conspiracy
hit who's, like, trying to tell 

738
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,920
people the truth. 
Yeah. 

739
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Yeah, that's great. 
So I do. 

740
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,200
So there's something really 
appealing, I think to fans of 

741
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:56,680
the original game to go and 
check this out. 

742
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,360
There's also another really cool
aspect of the world building 

743
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,760
which I think other people are 
picking up on, which I saw in 

744
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,360
Blue Sky. 
Someone was like I can't wait to

745
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,160
get this game so that I can play
like a Death Loop campaign which

746
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,920
is. 
What I did as well in my thing 

747
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,880
that I was like, yeah, we're 
going to, we're going to play 

748
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,960
with time. 
Except in this case it was the 

749
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,080
bad guys who would be reborn and
love it and other players. 

750
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,000
But yeah, is that are you, were 
you just a fan of that? 

751
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,440
Were you just seeing a sort of 
synergy here? 

752
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,960
Yeah, that. 
I mean, I think there's three 

753
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,920
things. 
So 1 is yes, I play death Loop 

754
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,760
and that was a big influence 
and. 

755
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,960
And there is this idea that 
Death Loop is like dishonoured 

756
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,080
in the future. 
Or something. 

757
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,320
Yeah. 
And they did come out and 

758
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,000
confirm that, so. 
Oh, they did OK. 

759
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,800
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty subtle. 
There's 2 Easter eggs. 

760
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,040
I wouldn't know if I hadn't been
like, I think. 

761
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,760
It's just the fact that you'll 
get like. 

762
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:49,600
A garden or something? 
Eel. 

763
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,080
Jelly and like real I like I 
think that's primarily how I. 

764
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,400
And I think one MPC is like 
singing some song that appears 

765
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,320
or something like very subtle 
stuff. 

766
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,760
You have to be a real 
dishonoured head to to pick up 

767
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,640
on it. 
Yeah, so that was the first 

768
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,360
thing was deathly rules and and 
the time stuff and that's fun. 

769
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,720
So let's put some time stuff 
here. 

770
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,760
The second thing is there are a 
bunch of weird sci-fi 

771
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,600
touchstones. 
Blades is a pretty weird fantasy

772
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,320
setting. 
And so I wanted there to be not 

773
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,080
necessarily a lot of weird magic
because that doesn't feel very 

774
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,200
1960s, but weird sci-fi instead.
And so it feels like timey time 

775
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,160
travel Y weird weirdness fits in
with that. 

776
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,040
Like a Austin Powers, which I 
shouldn't mentions. 

777
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,760
Forbidden touchstone is all 
about time travel. 

778
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,200
So it's not just death loop. 
Like I think Austin Powers is a 

779
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,640
death loop touchstone, but 
they're too afraid to admit it 

780
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,680
as my conspiracy theory. 
Austin Powers is just how we 

781
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,160
imagine the 60s now. 
Nobody's like that. 

782
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,560
Nobody knows how it really was. 
Yeah, exactly because I because 

783
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,040
Death Loop was an early 
inspiration. 

784
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,280
I did a bunch of research into 
Death Loop interviews because so

785
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,600
this is part of my process is if
I'm excited about a touchstone, 

786
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,760
you find out what their 
touchstones were so you can 

787
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,360
follow the loop. 
And they talked a lot about 

788
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,160
James Bond as though they're 
directed by Tarantino. 

789
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,080
They were skips. 
Fun pitch but they never 

790
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,160
mentioned Austin Powers and I'm 
sure it wasn't influenced 

791
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,720
because it's 60s time travel so 
it must have been on board. 

792
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:22,640
Somewhere a bit like saying 
Austin Powers is inspired by 

793
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,560
James Bond. 
It's a bit like. 

794
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,280
Saying so, that's in there as 
well. 

795
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,320
And then the third thing is so 
much of this game or supplement 

796
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,520
is a love letter to Blades in 
the Dark. 

797
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,400
And so I really wanted there to 
be a lot of kind of affordances 

798
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,800
in the setting to travel from 
one to the other really, or to 

799
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,120
have linkages between the two. 
A big part of the initial 

800
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,080
concept was like, we've played 
these previous campaigns and we 

801
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,520
have these characters. 
There should be like all these 

802
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,040
little wormholes shot through 
the concept so that if you want,

803
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040
there's a lot of like 
justification to have your 

804
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,240
characters go back or other 
characters come forward and all 

805
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,840
this kind of thing. 
So that was a really early goal,

806
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,680
and so that's part of why 
there's a lot of that kind of 

807
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,000
time stuff shot through. 
Oh, that's interesting because I

808
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,720
think deep cuts also like I 
assume you were, you were in 

809
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,560
dialogue with John Harper when 
he was like, yeah, I'm going to 

810
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,760
put a time tablet in in deep 
cuts and because 68 was already 

811
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,480
in development by. 
Then yeah, that's right. 

812
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,720
Yeah. 
So I wasn't aware of deep cuts 

813
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,080
when I started 68, but I think 
we're working on the very 

814
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,560
similar times. 
And there was a lot of dialogue 

815
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,360
through draughts, so we didn't 
necessarily have a meeting to 

816
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,160
talk about it, but John would 
see me an early draft of deep 

817
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,840
cuts and they would have some of
this time stuff. 

818
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,360
So I'd seen something back that 
kind of riffed on that and 

819
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,960
replied to it. 
So there's a really fun, like 

820
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,960
organic conversation through 
game design. 

821
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,720
Cool. 
Is there anything else about 68 

822
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,200
that you're particularly excited
for people to see? 

823
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,720
Just the whole thing, as you 
said, it's 450 pages. 

824
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:57,880
There's a lot there. 
I've been working on it pretty 

825
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,960
intensively for three years and 
even since the play test, I 

826
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,360
can't remember how many pages 
that was, but it was quite a bit

827
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,720
smaller. 
Yeah, I think, I don't know. 

828
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:08,360
I've had a lot of fun with it. 
I played like a 55 session 

829
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,640
campaign while I was working on 
it and had a blast. 

830
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,720
Wow, I've heard you talk about 
how normal campaign is. 

831
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,120
The is the short run thing is 
the deathmatch island. 

832
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,920
Let's do three sessions, let's 
do 4, let's do 8. 

833
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,680
Something like that. 55 is. 
Ridiculous. 

834
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,920
Huge yeah. 
It was very satisfying though. 

835
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,080
If you ever get a chance like I 
see why people get long campaign

836
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,280
pilled like. 
Oh yeah. 

837
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,840
It's kind of, yeah. 
The depth of flavour, once you 

838
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,720
get to the end, it's almost too 
dank. 

839
00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:37,920
It was so fun because we'd done 
a short Blades in the Dark 

840
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,800
campaign with the same group. 
And so we we did the whole, I 

841
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,000
did a flashback score where we 
played those characters. 

842
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,120
But it handled these ripples to 
the future. 

843
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:47,560
Yeah. 
All sorts of nonsense. 

844
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,480
Yeah, a lot of fun. 
Nice, that's awesome. 

845
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,200
Cool. 
This is a good place to switch 

846
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,560
to my Sarah questions. 
I have 3 Sarah questions in this

847
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,320
new year for the podcast. 
The first one is the same from 

848
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,480
the beginning. 
It's what's the game that you've

849
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,280
had a lot of fun with and you 
want to recommend? 

850
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,280
So I feel bad saying this 
because everyone was talking 

851
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,200
about it last year and quince to
the thing and it feels like a 

852
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,760
really boring answer. 
But we've been playing Mythic 

853
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,960
Bestian Land. 
Hell yeah, since we finished 

854
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,040
Blade 68. 
It was meant to be a little 

855
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,240
pellet cleanser. 
I just wanted to try it out. 

856
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:21,760
We're going to do a few 
sessions, but it just keeps 

857
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,920
going and going because every 
week we're like, yeah, we 

858
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:24,760
should, we should do another 
one. 

859
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,440
Let's keep going. 
I think that game is, yeah, I'm 

860
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:29,840
having a really fun time with 
it. 

861
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,320
I'm not. 
I haven't done a lot of sort of 

862
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,760
always play. 
I also feel like it's not their 

863
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,080
OSRE. 
It's not. 

864
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,920
It depends on how you run it. 
It feels like there's a lot of 

865
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,240
space. 
Nice. 

866
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,840
Are you, do you? 
Are you enjoying the myths? 

867
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,880
Are you enjoying the combat? 
What's your favourite part? 

868
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:50,160
Yeah, the combat is fun, but 
it's not my main. 

869
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,040
Yeah, the myths really is what I
kind of love and the sort of 

870
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,080
organic structure of the game. 
I guess the pix procedure, like 

871
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,440
the fact that you don't know 
which myths will trigger when or

872
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,520
where. 
So there's a great unknown to 

873
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,360
it, even though every beat in 
the myths is pre written. 

874
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,640
It's just a really nicely 
balanced balance of Chris's 

875
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,600
input as the game designer and 
writer and the players input is 

876
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,640
where they go and what they do 
and how they respond. 

877
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,640
And then my input is GM. 
It just feels really nicely 

878
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,200
considered and having. 
I don't think I've played a 

879
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,120
Chris McDowell game before, so I
don't know if they're all like 

880
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,800
this, but the sort of elegance 
of design in lots of places is 

881
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,320
really fun. 
No, I think there is something 

882
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,880
like this is a breakaway design 
in some very important ways and 

883
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,680
people have latched on to it for
part of it is of course Quinn's 

884
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,480
giving it such a boost. 
But like, I do think that there 

885
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:51,720
is Electric Bastion Land is a 
great game, but is like even 

886
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:54,360
just how it thinks about setting
construction, right? 

887
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,440
It wants the GM to sit and roll 
a bunch of tables, make a bunch 

888
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,720
of locations and then connect 
them all. 

889
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,800
You got to really enjoy this 
thing in a way that this one's 

890
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,800
like the elegance of the hex 
scrolling. 

891
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:08,920
It's a beautiful thing. 
Well. 

892
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,720
Don't tell the fans because I 
skipped the realm creations 

893
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,080
because I was like I don't want 
to spend 2 hours making a realm.

894
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,960
I can see you'll be really fun 
but I don't have the time. 

895
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,360
I'm just going to grab a realm 
that I found online. 

896
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,080
I I regret nothing. 
I regret nothing. 

897
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,600
But you rolled randomly for the 
myths. 

898
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:24,320
Are you? 
Oh, absolutely. 

899
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:24,720
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

900
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,840
That's the that's the best part.
Nice. 

901
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:27,920
Yeah. 
Cool. 

902
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,160
My next question is what is the 
non game work of art that that 

903
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,800
has had a big influence on you? 
Is a part of me that feels like 

904
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,520
I should I need to be a bit 
highbrow, but I won't be T VS 

905
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:40,680
OK? 
Yeah, T VS OK. 

906
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,800
Not to be too on brand, but I 
have to mention Mad Men which 

907
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,240
came out in 2007. 
So I was like 23 and I was 

908
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,480
midway through this design 
degree. 

909
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,400
And so it's just like a very 
formative age and just fill up 

910
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,080
to the brim with sort of design 
thinking. 

911
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,560
And I don't know, I was just in 
the right place at the right 

912
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,200
time in my life for it may have 
been to come out and really hit 

913
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,400
me between the eyes. 
And I just love that show a lot.

914
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,920
And it's very formative and the 
way it talks about both the way 

915
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,800
it was constructed and the 
attention to detail in the 

916
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,280
period, details that they looked
up, the weather on any given 

917
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,760
day, things like this and the 
exact like make of watches. 

918
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,360
And so that kind of craft that 
went into the show I really 

919
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,520
love. 
But also the themes of the show 

920
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,280
itself. 
Obviously a lot of it is about 

921
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,200
creative practise and what it 
means to try and get creative 

922
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,680
fulfilment in a very capitalist 
industry. 

923
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,560
So in the show, it's advertising
obviously, like Don and Peggy 

924
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,400
and the main characters looking 
for fulfilment in their work in 

925
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,000
a workplace that doesn't care 
about them. 

926
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,320
I don't know. 
I think it's very reason and I 

927
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,840
rewatched it last year for 
Blades and for Blades 68 reasons

928
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,760
and I think it really holds up 
and. 

929
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,480
That is definitely the most on 
brand thing you could have said.

930
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,040
Yeah, the disclaimer at the 
beginning did nothing. 

931
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,920
Do you think of yourself as a 
very detailed oriented percent, 

932
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,120
even you're in your own like 
taste like, do you enjoy that? 

933
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,240
Yeah, I do. 
The thing with that kind of 

934
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:13,920
stuff is you always fall short 
of your own standards, right? 

935
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,640
No way. 
I'd like to be more detailed. 

936
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,440
Do you think you were detailed 
oriented before your education 

937
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,200
team? 
You'd have an eye for details. 

938
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,200
Were you always like that? 
Or was this something that you 

939
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,600
feel like you use? 
Like after studying typography, 

940
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,560
you can't unstudy it right? 
That's definitely a part of it 

941
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,760
for sure, but I also think I 
feel like being, having a 

942
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,000
proclivity for anything is just 
because you've paid attention to

943
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,320
that thing for a long time, 
which is possibly not to say 

944
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,920
it's like an inborn talent, but 
it's just your interests. 

945
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,680
If you're interested in 
something, you'll pay attention 

946
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,960
to it and that will make you 
better at it to some extent. 

947
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:57,120
And so I've always had an 
interest in like visual design 

948
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,200
and stuff. 
And so when I started studying 

949
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,040
it, that attention to detail was
there. 

950
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,040
Not to say I didn't have to do a
lot of like study and practise, 

951
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,720
but yeah, there was a natural 
affinity I think. 

952
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,360
OK. 
And my third question, which is 

953
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,160
new for this year, is what is a 
part of your local area or 

954
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,440
neighbourhood that you think of 
as important? 

955
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:21,080
I love these questions by the 
way. 

956
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,480
Great format. 
Yeah, this is a nice, like, it's

957
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,880
a nice way to get out of the 
game design conversation as 

958
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:27,880
well. 
I lose a little. 

959
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,800
Yeah, I think yeah, definitely 
there sometimes. 

960
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,680
So I live in Wellington, New 
Zealand or Tefangi Nui Atara 

961
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,920
Altiora, which is the capital 
city. 

962
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,400
It's the windiest city in the 
world measurably, which is fun. 

963
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,480
So it is at the bottom of the 
North Islands. 

964
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,960
Fun thing about New Zealand is 
we've got two big islands which 

965
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,440
are North Island and South 
Island. 

966
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,560
And in Terry O Maori there the 
ICAO Maui, which is the fish of 

967
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,640
Maui, describes the shape of the
North Island. 

968
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,640
And then Taiwai Poonamu or sort 
of waters of Poonamu or 

969
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,160
Greenstone describes the South 
Island because that's where 

970
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:04,920
Poonamu was found, the 
Greenstone. 

971
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,960
But instead we call it the North
Island and the South, which is 

972
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,000
cool. 
So I live at the bottom of the 

973
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,560
North Island and then there's 
this Cook Strait and then the 

974
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,600
South Island below that. 
And that acts as a wind tunnel 

975
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,080
and all this wind just blasts 
through. 

976
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,480
And that's why it's such a Windy
City. 

977
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,280
And so my favourite place or the
place that really resonates with

978
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,080
me around here, I grew up here 
as well as the South Coast of 

979
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,000
Wellington, which is on the 
coast across the Strait. 

980
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,720
And so you get the full 
southerly's just blasting you in

981
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:34,840
the face. 
And it's very like rugged and 

982
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,440
quite unpleasant in a lot of 
places and a lot of days. 

983
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,720
But it is like quintessentially 
of this place and very evocative

984
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:45,920
of my youth, which means it's 
very like meaningful to me. 

985
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,320
I also feel like there's 
something, firstly, not to sound

986
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:53,320
like Calvin's dead, but it 
builds character for sure to be 

987
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,560
on this horrible coast. 
And I've also been thinking 

988
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,520
about how like in Scandinavia, 
they have this horrible winter 

989
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,400
weather, right? 
Like it's dark and cold, but 

990
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,840
they really celebrate that. 
And I think there's something to

991
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,600
be said about like embracing the
worst part about the place you 

992
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,240
live rather than trying to get 
away from it. 

993
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,160
And the South Coast is, I 
shouldn't undersell, it's like 

994
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,640
majestic. 
It's amazing, these big waves 

995
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,200
crashing against the rocks and 
this massive expanse of water. 

996
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,760
And it's very dramatic and like 
soul stirring as well as being 

997
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,680
horrible. 
The topography, a lot of cliffs 

998
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,520
or a lot of beaches or boa. 
A lot of cliffs and hills in 

999
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,080
general. 
There are a few beaches but 

1000
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,800
there, yeah, not many but they 
tend to be pretty rocky. 

1001
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:39,400
And shingly we actually the city
beginning I think 20 years ago, 

1002
00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:43,440
they import golden sand from 
across the Cook Strait on a 

1003
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,600
badge and they have to redo it 
every year I think because it 

1004
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,000
just washes away. 
So we have 1 golden sand beach 

1005
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,920
and it's because they just dump 
because it to make this one nice

1006
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,120
beach. 
Nice. 

1007
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,520
That's really funny. 
Talk about a veneer anyway. 

1008
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,120
Yeah, OK. 
Thank you so much. 

1009
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,560
Tim. 
I will link the Blades in the 

1010
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,760
Blades 68 crowdfunded in the 
description, but is there 

1011
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,720
anywhere else that people can 
find you or follow your work? 

1012
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,560
Yeah, so Old Dog dot Games is 
the website or at Old Dog Dot 

1013
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,120
Games on Blue Sky are the best 
places to go. 

1014
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,240
That's it for this week's show, 
folks. 

1015
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:26,920
Thank you for listening. 
We actually have a schedule that

1016
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,840
goes out for months already. 
It's just pretty cool. 

1017
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,920
People I've been meaning to talk
to for years and some new people

1018
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,400
who weren't even in the scene 
years ago, that's also cool. 

1019
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,240
Till we meet next. 
Does India need you? 

1020
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:45,920
Yes, indeed.