1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,560 Funny story. It's with Stephen Frias because 2 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:08,760 he's the funniest man ever. We were in Soho in a very tiny 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,400 room. Meryl Streep, him, the producer, 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,280 everybody in the cutting room to discuss the things about the 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,120 film. Meryl has her bag on the floor 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,640 next to the table. The sushi arrive with the miso 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,040 soup and and everybody is talking about no, cut this shot, 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:27,600 No, cut that shot. No, no. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,119 Anyway, Stephen gets fed up at some point and slyly push the 10 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:33,840 table because he needs to stand up. 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,800 And a big tub of miso soup literally fell like this inside 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Meryl Streep's Chanel bag with a very expensive scarf that cost 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,600 probably $5000. So I found myself cleaning up 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,680 bits of miso soup from. Meryl's bag and it was 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:51,960 hilarious. We are. 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,720 I'm Nosovchenko. And Pierre Paolo Filomeno and 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,200 this is Editors Anonymous. A podcast about film editing 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,360 made by film editors. Like in a group therapy session, 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,800 we chat with fellow editors about how they approach a scene, 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,160 how they tune into a director's vision, whether they ever feel 21 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,000 afraid when starting a new project, and the tricks they've 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,960 picked up along the way. In short, we try to figure out 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,880 about how to live and survive in a job that's so subjective and 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,120 almost mysterious. Editors Anonymous started in 25 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,960 2021 as an Italian podcast, but now offers episodes in either 26 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,760 Italian or English. Check the title for the 27 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,520 language. Our guest today is Valerio 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,080 Bonelli. So Valerio, how did your journey 29 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,680 into film editing begin? When did you realize that film 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,000 editing was what you wanted to do in life? 31 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,600 My my journey into film editing started very early on. 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,280 I was a complete reject of Italian educational system in 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:02:00,960 the sense that I went from very poor, mediocre results in in 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,520 Litio Classico in Italy to feeling that I had to get a 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,560 diploma to, to get out and go to university. 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,120 But then I realized I don't really want to go to university. 37 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,440 And so my I remember being 18 year old, 19 year old probably 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,200 and my dad driving me down. I was following him on a work, 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,400 one of his work trip and my dad asking me, what do you like in 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,760 life? And I said, well, I like, I like 41 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,240 architectural, but I don't really want to go and study 42 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,600 architecture because I'm really bad in math and I really love 43 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,880 cinema. My parents were freaking out 44 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,320 about the idea that I was going to try to be an actor and they 45 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,160 said, Oh my God, he wants to be an actor. 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,480 And I was like, no, no, no, no, I, I want to make film. 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:47,840 You know, I really want to make film. 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:54,040 So, so at the time in 19, that was 1997, I just finished 49 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,280 school, I got my diploma literally with the teeth of my 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,960 skin. I basically went to this little 51 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,520 film school in Florence called ISCA and I applied for the 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,320 directing course, but that was full. 53 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:13,560 And instead, the organizer of the school told me, you know, if 54 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,080 you follow the editing course, it follows all the programme of 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,640 the directing course, but so it's a good thing. 56 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:23,720 So you can still apply this here and apply to the editing course. 57 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,600 And I was like, OK, I'll do that. 58 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:31,880 And, and slowly but surely, I realized that editing was 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,920 actually a more interesting dimension for me. 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,240 I was really into the technology side as well of film editing. 61 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,520 I did a little bit of experience celluloid, but I, I realized I 62 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,720 need to expand to my, my, my knowledge, my horizon. 63 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,000 I went to meet a see a friend in London who was studying sound 64 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,800 engineering. And then one thing after the 65 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,720 next, I met a person who was working at AVID. 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,960 He would support all the editors who would use media Composer, 67 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:03,680 which was a very early on days. He was like one of the first few 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,240 first software in the time 9899 you're talking about. 69 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,040 There was light works or, or, or, or, or, or media composer. 70 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:18,399 And, and so he taught me of it. And then then I met a person 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 who's actually an Italian film editor called Lucia Zucchetti. 72 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,280 She told me to go to the National Film and Television 73 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:27,360 School in, in London. And thank God I applied there 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,840 because that changed my life completely. 75 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,040 I remember at the same time I applied to the Chintros Prim 76 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,240 Itali in Rome. And so I had this choice and I 77 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,320 thought that England suited me best. 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,200 And that's where I met Cosmos Pender, my wife, who then became 79 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,960 my wife. And we, you know, we started a 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,640 collaboration. What happened was something 81 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,920 quite, I think about it. It was almost like winning a 82 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,360 lottery. The friend who introduced me to 83 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:07,640 to to Avid one day called me up and said, hey, there is Pietro 84 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:14,000 Scalia in in town and and he's working on Gladiator and this is 85 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,920 only his second film on Avid and he's not very experienced 86 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,720 because he uses lightworks and he's struggling. 87 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,760 He can't find an assistant who knows how to use the avid 88 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,760 properly. You know, those days assistant 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,920 editor were mostly on film, you know, and and Avid was very new. 90 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,480 So there were not, there were not many assistant able to, to, 91 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,480 to, to, to, to run the Avid properly and to, to know all 92 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,280 the, you know, tricks. And, and so I came very 93 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,040 recommended. I remember he called me up on 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,520 the phone and I was, I was in the bus coming back from school 95 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,640 and I thought it was a joke. So I, I, I said to him that, you 96 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,280 know, that he called me and say I'm Pietro Scalia. 97 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:55,160 And I say, yeah. And I, I'm the Pope. 98 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,520 And I thought it was one of my friend from Italy joking because 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,920 I remember always actually admiring Pietro's work. 100 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,720 He was one of my heroes, you know, And I remember looking at 101 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,920 JFK and analyzing every single cuts and frame of JFK and 102 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:16,280 thinking how masterful the editing was, the, the narrative 103 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,320 of the film and the use of documentary footage. 104 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,000 And so anyway, I went to see him and then he got me that he, he 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,080 hired me. He at the beginning was supposed 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,920 to be just a couple of weeks. And then I ended up spending 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,480 about four months. Where I went even to Malta, so I 108 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,200 had, I had to interrupt the school. 109 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,760 The school allowed me to, to, to, to work at the same time as 110 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,240 studying. But it was an incredible 111 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,240 experience. You know, I was literally 112 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,880 stepping on. I remember going to the South of 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,880 London near Gatwick Airport where there was the set of the 114 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,320 battle scene at the beginning and, and, and suddenly seeing 115 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,840 Russell Crowe, Ridley Scott and, and, and about 150 soldiers all 116 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,800 dressed up with catapults and fire. 117 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,360 I mean, I thought I was like in a, in a parallel world, to be 118 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,000 honest with you. And you know, then Gladiator 119 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,120 went to become a super successful film and, and then I 120 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,920 started working over the years with Pietro and Gridley on many 121 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,240 other projects. I was very keen at the beginning 122 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:27,480 of my career as an assistant not to do it as a kind of form of 123 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,920 job, being as a full, most of you know, of, of income and job. 124 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,120 And I was always choosing the project to assist because at the 125 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,720 same times I wanted to keep on editing. 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,800 So I kept on editing Low budget documentaries, short films, low 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,200 budget feature film. But there's no doubt that Pietro 128 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:52,320 with Time is one of the person who has helped me the most to 129 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,400 give me a springboard. Then find my first feature film 130 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,840 to edit which was Thriller Horror film about the Hannibal 131 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,040 Lecter saga and it was like the prequel of the Hannibal Lecter 132 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,680 story with the director called Peter Webber and the producer 133 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:14,120 was the legendary Dino De Laurentiis which I I have 134 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,720 endless stories about him. He was one of the most 135 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:24,360 charismatic and annoying person I've ever met in my life with an 136 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,320 incredible personality, you know, and he's a, he, he was a, 137 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:34,520 he was like a living legend. He, he, he produced Kaberia. 138 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:41,880 He produced most of Fellini's film and, and made King Kong and 139 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,960 Conan the Barbarian. I mean, you named him, you know, 140 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,080 War and Peace. And I remember him and Harvey 141 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,040 Weinstein fighting on the film that I was doing for them. 142 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,680 So that that that was like as a kind of baptism into into 143 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,960 editing. My first film was like, I was, 144 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,560 you know, I felt in the middle of two Titans, really. 145 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,920 But Dina was always open. He was always excited to work 146 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,160 with young people. And that's why he gave me the 147 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,920 shot, you know, he, he allowed, you know, I something that I, 148 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,280 it's a film that I shared the, the credit with Pietro. 149 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,840 I started it. He came in for two or three 150 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,200 months and then I carried on. So that was my first experience 151 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,280 as a sole editor, you know, as a, as a on a, on a big feature 152 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,400 film. As you mentioned, Pedro Scalia 153 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,160 was an important figure in your career. 154 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,880 There are also others like your wife Cosima Spender. 155 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,200 You already mentioned it, but also Stephen Fears and Joe 156 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,480 Wright. It's all people you have built 157 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,760 with whom you have built ongoing collaborations. 158 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,240 You know, at the beginning of each editor's career, it's an 159 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,880 editor's career is defined by the by the directors you work 160 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,120 with. And it's very important to find 161 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:08,160 a director who think you can kind of grow together and build 162 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,040 your career with him. And at the beginning I was 163 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:18,600 struggling because Peter, that film wasn't very good, wasn't 164 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,200 very successful. So I started a period of my 165 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:29,360 career from 2005 six. I already had a little child, so 166 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,280 I needed to earn money as well as wanting to work. 167 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,480 And so I spent a period of my life where I did. 168 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,600 I've worked almost every year with a different director of all 169 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,080 up and coming very talented film maker called Jordan Scott, who 170 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,800 was, he's the daughter of Ridley Scott. 171 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,560 Then I had the luck to work with Ricky Gervais and Stephen 172 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,920 Merchant, who are brilliant comedians, and they were making 173 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,320 their first feature film after The Office. 174 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,200 And then I ended up doing an action movie with Bruce Willis 175 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,120 for a year and a half. And that was like probably the 176 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,280 worst experience I've ever still ever had in my career, but 177 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,920 taught me so much about politics and editing and how much you can 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:23,840 pull material right, left, up and down and manipulate footage 179 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,600 in many different ways to tell different type of story. 180 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,880 Even in a feature film, putting lines inside the inside Bruce 181 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,320 Willis mouth that he never said because you know. 182 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,280 And I remember. After that, returning to London 183 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,240 from Los Angeles for a long period in Los Angeles, thinking 184 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,400 I really need to find an established director to work 185 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:44,920 with. It's like became a mission. 186 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,600 So I ended up doing a film with Steve Knight, his first feature 187 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,400 film. And out of that film I met a 188 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,880 producer called Tracy Seward, who was Stephen Frias's producer 189 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,640 and and he was doing, was preparing a film called 190 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,440 Philomena. And that was like, that was my 191 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,840 first, I think big break, I think as a as A and, and I still 192 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,760 remember as one of the best experience of my life and one of 193 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,560 the best editing job I've ever done. 194 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:21,560 And that's when my name started to really circulate in the in 195 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,320 the British and American film industry because the film went 196 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,480 to be nominated for an Oscar. I didn't get a nomination. 197 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,160 But normally this kind of film don't get nominations because 198 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:35,400 editing is something invisible. It's it's an invisible art. 199 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,920 And often I find that maybe I say this with a little bit of 200 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:46,160 resentment, I'm sure. But often the the nominated film 201 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,080 for editing either are very flashy where they have very kind 202 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,720 of visible editing or they are film that are connected. 203 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,560 But but the editing is connected to directing in the sense that, 204 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,880 you know, if a director particularly is extraordinary, 205 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,920 then the editing gets recognised because of the directing side. 206 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,760 Or you might do a film like Baby Driver and the the editing is so 207 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,200 obviously in your face that you get nominated. 208 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,840 But for me, Philomena was an incredible experience. 209 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,920 And from then I from that point I kept, I kept on collaborating 210 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,800 with Stephen Frears for about 3-4 years up until I met Joe 211 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Wright. He called me up to to edit an 212 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,800 episode of Black Mirror called Nosedive. 213 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,360 And then after that, we basically kept on working 214 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,880 together ever since, you know, I did Darkest Hour and eventually 215 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,720 Mussolini, M son of the century. I was stunned by the editing. 216 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,240 There are sequences which were really, you can see how you had 217 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,680 to deal with different. Also kind of footage. 218 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:56,880 No, because there are the fake archive, Bennett's archive. 219 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,800 But I noticed that both The Darkest Hour and M Mussolini, 220 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,160 because in English it's Mussolini, they both begin with 221 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,760 their with sequences, with real archive footage. 222 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,360 It's like a statement. Now this is a true story, but 223 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,800 but it's still so incredible now that we have to say that it's 224 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,240 real. How did you manage to to deal 225 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,080 with the research and the organization of all the archive 226 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,920 material? Did you do it personally? 227 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,200 Did you have team or your assistant? 228 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,880 OK, on In Darkest Hour, actually the idea to put some documentary 229 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,840 footage came in the editing room later in the process because Joe 230 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,680 during preparation showed me all this amazing footage that he 231 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,840 found at the Imperial War Museum about Germany's preparing for 232 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,960 war. And you know, there's something 233 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,680 amazing about war footage which I research and dug into in my 234 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,840 life in many other different projects. 235 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,800 But there's something amazing about the style of, of, of 236 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:06,240 filming because you know, you look at, you look at English 237 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:13,600 behind the lines or, or, or, or, or war footage and it's all very 238 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:20,160 handheld and realistic and you look at French and it's very 239 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,200 kind of still. You can see the cinema verita. 240 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,760 Then you went to, you go to Germany and you see German 241 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:30,840 footage and the amazing aesthetic of how even the Nazi 242 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,720 shot, obviously, you know, thinking about Leni Riefenstahl, 243 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,240 but that angle, you know, the, the aesthetic of what, how 244 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,520 Germany shot the, the war, it's, it's, it was unbelievable. 245 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,680 And then the War Museum, they had this footage. 246 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,640 And I said to Joe, I think we should just use it. 247 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,120 You know, you should, we should just have an introduction 248 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,160 because it's great to go straight in parliament. 249 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,800 But I think it would be great to see images of Germany preparing 250 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,480 for war because that's the backdrop of the beginning of 251 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:06,720 Darkest Tower is basically tanks, cannon and heavy 252 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,280 artillery gearing up, you know, invading the rest of Europe. 253 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,240 And he resisted at the beginning because he was very keen to 254 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,960 start with his own footage. And then eventually after we did 255 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,280 few test screenings, it came the necessity to put some. 256 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,440 Caption at the start. And so we put the caption and 257 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,920 then we said, why don't we put caption with some images? 258 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,520 So then we did it and he liked it and we, we, we carried on. 259 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,640 And particularly because he liked the style of how those 260 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,720 shots where, you know, it basically mirrored a bit his 261 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,440 style because Joe is a very aesthetic director. 262 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:51,680 With Mussolini there was always a script had an intro with Lucas 263 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,280 voice playing Mussolini from the future, talking about obviously 264 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,840 the past with images of of. Venteno. 265 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,319 Venteno exactly. The 20 years of fascist rule. 266 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,920 So there was obviously there was a deal in place with this 267 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,160 Tuluche. We knew that we we had to look 268 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,760 at a lot of footage. I had a series of assistant 269 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,480 helping me helping me go through. 270 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:24,280 But I remember very early on Joe used to do the screenings. 271 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:30,680 Even before shooting of of archives, he would they would go 272 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:36,000 to change the time screen it on the big screen and because to 273 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,560 trying to get inspiration because he knew he wanted to 274 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:44,880 blend our let's call it. Fake archive with real archives. 275 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,960 So that's idea where that's where the idea came from. 276 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,320 You know, from looking at this footage and saying, you know 277 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,920 what, I'm just going to put Luca. 278 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,160 As young Mussolini intercut. With World War. 279 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,600 One footage and to trying to blend the two things together. 280 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,680 And then the actual technical process was very interesting 281 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,400 because everything with Luca was shot obviously on digital. 282 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,400 But then I would cut it select it and cut it. 283 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:18,680 And then we sent it to a guy here in England that would film 284 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,840 it with a Bolex camera off a high resolution monitor. 285 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:28,600 And then he would take this this 16 millimetre film and develop 286 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:33,520 it in in his own bathtub and exposing it to a bit of light 287 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,960 and creating all those kind of flares naturally. 288 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,160 So all the kind of effect we did several tests to trying to make 289 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,280 it look like real old archive and but we did it organically. 290 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,000 I put flash frame everywhere and I created myself certain layers 291 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,520 and I was like building certain overlay to create that sense of 292 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,320 old archive. But the grain and all that that 293 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,440 that came from the from the process of filming it, from the 294 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,120 monitor with a real 60mm camera and then Telesini the negative 295 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,880 back and into digital again. And this was very important for 296 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,480 Mussolini's story because Mussolini's one of the first, I 297 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,360 would say maybe the first ever politician who understood the 298 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:23,680 power of the medium. He understood the meaning of 299 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,240 cinema as a way to influence masses. 300 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Then he had a lot of the ideas about, you know, he was also 301 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:39,120 inspired by films like Man with a movie Camera, which we used 302 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,960 very often in, in transitions and but you know, we used even 303 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,640 frames of Persona by Berkman in, in, in, in a certain transition. 304 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,640 We, we do little, you know, we did some little homage to, to, 305 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,040 to, to old cinema to. But like for instance all the 306 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:07,480 travelling car sequence in in Outside is basically footage 307 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,680 from man with a movie camera, the famous Ukrainian. 308 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,680 Sigavertov. Yeah, Sigavertov exactly 309 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,680 because, you know, he didn't want to do fake backdrop with. 310 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Well, first of all, where do you find 1920s Rome? 311 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,720 It's it's impossible. Or you can build it CG, but then 312 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,800 it would it would look like a rye TV, you know, TV series, 313 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,680 historical. I mean, Joe is a very visionary 314 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,000 director. He thinks a lot about the frame 315 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,720 and the images and he's often, I think, criticised too much in 316 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,440 the UK for being too flamboyant in his style. 317 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,440 I think in Italy he found a way to actually express himself 318 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,440 without ever being criticised for certain choices. 319 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,920 That was cool that an English director did a female Mussolini. 320 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:09,200 Actually it was very fresh speaking about style and 321 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,080 aesthetics. So as Beppe said, the the 322 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:20,600 editing style was we were stunned and it's so visually 323 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,520 complex. Multi layers test is old 324 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,880 fashioned masks and iris, kind of kaleidoscopic pictures in 325 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:37,880 picture flashes, rapid cuts. It's to us looks like futuristic 326 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,760 editing which resonates with the historical avant-garde of the 327 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,480 time. So how did you guys develop and 328 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,760 working on this statics? Were you aware, conscious of of 329 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,320 this? And ultimately how did you work 330 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,960 with the music also that is composed by Chemical Brothers? 331 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,240 Yeah. I mean, that's obviously was 332 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,200 what was the intention from the start. 333 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,760 To, to, to. Also pay homage to the futurist 334 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,280 style. Joe very early on told me I'm 335 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,480 going to have Chemical Brothers to do the music. 336 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,840 And I was like, oh, OK. I was a little scared because I 337 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:25,720 knew that the approach was going to be basically that I was going 338 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,840 to have a lot of work to do. In the sense that when you work 339 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:36,600 with people like Tom, they give you they give you a lot of 340 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,880 samples and a lot of material. And then you're left in the 341 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:48,920 cutting room with all these hours of music that you kind of 342 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,440 have to stitch together and build ideas. 343 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,600 So it's a very creative job and very exciting. 344 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,160 And it would, it's a ping pong. It's a real ping pong between 345 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:08,120 me, Joe and Tom. And then eventually another key 346 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,840 figure comes in, which is in this case is a brilliant German 347 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:19,400 composer slash music editor called David Menke, who came in 348 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,400 the process more towards the end of the shooting to the post 349 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,600 production and he would take my ideas. 350 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:33,960 Tom footed Tom music and you know, building a better, more 351 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,360 layered score, adding extra instrumentation. 352 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,400 But the intention in on the from the point of view of the I mean, 353 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,600 I'm talking a lot about music because obviously those sequence 354 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,200 where the editing is visible are very much driven by the music. 355 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,920 There was a risk to turn it into music video because obviously 356 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,400 also the choice of using techno, you know, electronic music with, 357 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,080 with the collaboration we had with Tom Rowland of The Chemical 358 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,800 Brothers. But I mean, since the start it 359 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:19,760 was it was clear that it was going to be something that was 360 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,440 either going to be brilliant or incredibly dangerous because the 361 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:33,240 risk was to glorified or glamorized an aspect of fascism 362 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,920 which at least we all hated, which is the violence. 363 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,840 Equally. At the same time, you had to 364 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:45,640 understand the violence and understand what who were their 365 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:52,920 DT and what they were driven by and what was their motif. 366 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,480 You know, those were periods where violence obviously came 367 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:04,160 from right and left. I mean, I am obviously enjoys 368 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,480 the same. We are we are anti fascist and 369 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,360 we made this film with the spirit of of of being anti 370 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:14,240 fascist. But you couldn't just point the 371 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,400 finger. You also had to try to 372 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,200 understand that that sense of rebelliousness and and 373 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,200 excitement that some of those young, sometimes young kids that 374 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,000 came out of World War One were driven by. 375 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,480 Because I mean, the the first couple of episodes shows it that 376 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,720 the period was a very difficult period in Italian history. 377 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,480 And although Italy won the war, there was a lot of social 378 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:47,200 uprising and and disappointment from a lot of level of society. 379 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,720 There were some probably seeds of wanting a better world even 380 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,800 in the fascist movement. They did wanted a better world. 381 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,520 They did wanted the better jobs for a for for for in factories 382 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,880 and better salaries and they remove malaria. 383 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,280 You know, it's like you can't deny the desire. 384 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,000 It's just how they did it and what happened so. 385 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,000 I had fun. I I. 386 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,280 Really had a lot of fun cutting the sequence, but at the same 387 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,840 times I had also a lot of I also had a lot of tears into my eyes 388 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,960 because. My grandfather was anti fascist 389 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,680 and I come from an anti fascist family. 390 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,920 I think that basically you were all able to show the heart of 391 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,640 fascism, which is something that we never we never saw on a 392 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,640 screen. You usually see a kind of 393 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,720 puppeteering version of fascism. Yeah, normally in the 394 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:55,160 representation of fascism in Italian cinema, it's it's kind 395 00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,480 of seen from from its end. So it's mostly depicted as 396 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,440 decadente, I would say. But the series and the book from 397 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:10,920 Scarati rather put the accent on how the fascist did seize the 398 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,520 power. So not with a coup. 399 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,080 Yes, of course there was the March on Rome in 1922, but they 400 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,520 came to power really manipulating and eroding 401 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:28,280 democratic institutions from inside this egos in a troubling 402 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,320 way. What's going on in the United 403 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,520 States today? Yeah, I mean, obviously in the 404 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,320 writing there is a deliberate connection in episode 4 to 405 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,720 what's happening to the world now when when Mussolini turns 406 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,880 the camera and talks and say make Italy great again. 407 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,080 I can reveal a little aspect which is very interesting that 408 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,480 in that montage at the beginning of episode 1 On paper was 409 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,480 supposed to finish with images of the present after pizza 410 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,040 laureate that was in in On paper. 411 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:09,920 Stefano and David have wrote an idea for a for for a montage of 412 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,400 Capitol Hill in in America and you know, people and various 413 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,040 other images the war in Ukraine. I put it together. 414 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,040 We screened it like this for the first couple of months 415 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:31,080 internally with our producers and and it just felt it was one 416 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,280 step too many, which you kind of, it's better to leave it 417 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,560 subtly in the in the film and let the audience arrive to that 418 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,200 conclusion without necessarily push it down the throat of the 419 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,240 audience from the very first moment. 420 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,800 So we decided to take that nod to the future out and let it 421 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,600 breathe through the film and through the serious. 422 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,880 I call it film because in the end, for me, M is the film. 423 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,600 It should have been distributed in the cinema. 424 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,720 I mean, I, I don't understand. I'm, I do a little polemic note 425 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,160 with Sky here that I can finally do it. 426 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,080 But they've been they're not being very clever in not, you 427 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,280 know, the the series could have been shown in the cinema and I'm 428 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,920 sure people would have flocked the cinemas in Italy to go and 429 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,240 see it. But yeah, I think, you know, 430 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,760 obviously the whole series. I think it's the end standard of 431 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,920 century from the book to the series. 432 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,960 I think it had the intention to trying to make people think 433 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,880 about the world we live in now. Exactly. 434 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,000 Now, you know, the the the the rising of populism, the rising 435 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,160 of toxic masculinity. Joe was very keen to talk about 436 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:55,520 the toxic masculinity and and what that toxic mentality can 437 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,720 bring to a democratic process, because as you said, this is not 438 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,840 like a Pinochet go coup d'etat. This is this was like a 439 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,560 democratic. I'll give you an example. 440 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,760 One, one of the best episode that represents what fascism 441 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,080 really is. It's episode 5 and 6, which are 442 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,760 the middle episode they're considering all, all often the 443 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,680 most boring. But when you understand how he 444 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,480 changed the electoral law, how he managed to take people from 445 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,240 the left wing parties into his own parties, then you understand 446 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,880 really the danger of that, of that system. 447 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,720 And when when we put together those episodes, there was an 448 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,480 early stage in the process where the producer were like, are we 449 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,760 going to make a film? Can you, Valerio, can you think 450 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,160 about the possibility of cutting Mussolini, the Ms. of the 451 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,480 century, down from 8 episode to a cinematic release of three 452 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,320 hours? And I was like, you know, we can 453 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,480 think about that, but it's going to become a lot less shallow as 454 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,000 a project. And in fact, we didn't do a 455 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,840 three hours version because it would have become a summary 456 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:07,000 rather than a real exploration of, of the rise of fascism. 457 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,280 Yeah. And it wouldn't allow characters 458 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,960 like Margherita Serfati to flourish. 459 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,480 It wouldn't allow characters like she's that she's that they 460 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,800 all see to to flourish. He wouldn't, you know, And even 461 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,440 the character of Mussolini himself, you know. 462 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:24,720 How? How? 463 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,880 How? He develops through the episode 464 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:34,160 is very it's quite, it's quite interesting considering that we 465 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,680 never shot really in order. It was never shot 466 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,680 chronologically the whole series. 467 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,600 Bold, bold, broadly speaking, yes, you know, I parliament was 468 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,720 one of the last things was shot, but obviously you went to 469 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,360 parliament and you started from episode 1 to the end. 470 00:31:53,560 --> 00:32:00,320 So Luca had to do in five days a progression of his character in 471 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:10,360 those spaces that that that illustrates basically his the 472 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:15,840 journey of his character. So, yeah, I have an incredible 473 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,400 respect and admiration for Luca Marinelli. 474 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,880 I think he's one of the greatest actor I've ever had the pleasure 475 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,520 to cut performance And, and, and at the same, I mean, I, I've 476 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,320 been lucky in my career to to be able to cut, you know, Gary 477 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:38,320 Oldman, Meryl Streep, Judi Dench. 478 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,040 And for me, he's at the same level. 479 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,040 He's one of those actor who can turn any project around and 480 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,280 really give powerful performance. 481 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,920 Emotional in every sense. How did you deal with the 482 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,280 producers? How was your relationship? 483 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,200 Did you have a lot of interference from them or a lot 484 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:06,720 of feedbacks or did you feel free to to to work or were they 485 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,040 very present in the even in the editing room? 486 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,840 They were just as static, to be honest with you. 487 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,040 I mean, the, the, I think they couldn't believe their luck 488 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,040 because they, they, they had this incredible director 489 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,920 interpreting their words into beautiful, amazing images. 490 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,920 You know, it's like if you read the beginning of episode 2, it's 491 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,440 on paper says Mussolini is in a prison cell reading his article 492 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,600 that he will, you know, published. 493 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920 On his newspaper about the socialist winning the election. 494 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,040 And it's just like that's that's what the script says. 495 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:52,000 Then Joe in scouting, he found this location with water falling 496 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,360 from the sky and and it was like, you know, oh, this is 497 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,840 going to be a room where all the prisoners are walking in their 498 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,400 in the you know, one hour break and Mussolini is going to read 499 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,960 it there with the rain falling down. 500 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:12,719 So his his freedom to be to interpret it the page and then 501 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:19,600 stage it with his imagination was had was wild. 502 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:27,840 And I think this is probably, I don't mind saying it, but 503 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,080 because he was very well respected by the producers and 504 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,920 because in Italy there's a lot more kind of reverence and 505 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,480 there's a lot of respect was the vision of a director. 506 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,040 He was allowed to do things that, to be honest with you, I 507 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,920 don't think in the. UK with a with. 508 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,560 AUK or American line producer would have allowed and we had 509 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,800 very little interference from from Sky. 510 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,040 They sent us notes. Joe accepted the notes he liked 511 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,960 and rejected the one he didn't like. 512 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,760 And that was brilliant because there was very. 513 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,960 Little contamination of his vision. 514 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,000 So as you mentioned you studied and working in the angular Saxon 515 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,440 film industry. I'm still curious about some 516 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,920 other differences, especially because you work it with the 517 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,480 some big studio production. So how are the timelines, the 518 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,480 the pressures that are different? 519 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,200 I don't know if you ever experienced this. 520 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,080 I imagine, yes, this previous screenings in the United States 521 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,520 with figures and number, how did they work and what was your 522 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,840 experience? I actually lived through the 523 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,440 period of where the previous screening where the most 524 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,640 important process in post production. 525 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,600 Nowadays, because cinema tickets it's not the main source of 526 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,280 income for for films, this this whole system is slightly 527 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,960 changed. My experience with previous 528 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,080 screenings has been terrifying and at the same time exciting, 529 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,600 because it's a real moment where you can sit. 530 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,320 Finally, after many months of editing, you can I, I always 531 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,680 place myself in the middle, in the middle of the theatre with 532 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,360 the audience. And you can finally see the film 533 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,760 with their eyes. You know, you can actually feel 534 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,000 the film with the, from the point of view of an audience and 535 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,160 the, the numbers and the stats that they give you later. 536 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,360 It's up to you to interpret it and to filter them with your 537 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:33,360 intelligence to, you know, of course the, these companies, 538 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,360 they, they give you, try to give you a solution. 539 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,320 Oh, you know, the audience doesn't like this and that maybe 540 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,800 if you do this, they will like that. 541 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,520 And you know, it's up to the film makers and the producers to 542 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:52,680 accept this as suggestions or to realise where where an issue 543 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,640 might be. But the way to address the 544 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,760 issue, it's not it's never in in the solution that they give you. 545 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,360 Or sometimes you just have to forget about a certain comment 546 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:11,760 because obviously it depends what film you're making. 547 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,800 You know, if it's a highly commercial film like that film I 548 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,200 was mentioning before the call light of day, then obviously 549 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,800 that film is a popcorn movie that is meant to make money at 550 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,440 the first box office weekend. So you are if you when you do a 551 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120 preview the numbers, it's important. 552 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,160 If you score a low numbers, which I did with we did with 553 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,760 that film, you're, you're in trouble. 554 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,840 You're in trouble and and your life will be hell for several 555 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,800 months. The same has happened to to 556 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,600 films like Woman in the Window that I did with Joe. 557 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,400 We did a preview, the numbers were low, the studio decided to 558 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,080 not only rewrite but reshoot 1/3 of the movie. 559 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,120 And then we did a new preview. And guess how many points we 560 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:04,800 got? More. 561 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,120 Just one, and it was ridiculous. They spent an extra $10 million 562 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,720 to reshoot, rewrite to then not really improve anything. 563 00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:20,320 It's a model that it's based on, on trying to turn an art form 564 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,400 into a science. You can test the numbers and see 565 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,400 and test the audience and see. And then there's a company who 566 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,080 can give you a cert of formulas. It's the eternal battle between 567 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,440 creativity and commercial success. 568 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:44,360 I think in this new panorama of film making of of the world we 569 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,480 live in, where distribution has changed and streamers have taken 570 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,480 over, a lot of things are reshuffling and it's it's 571 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,000 different. I think then there is a bit more 572 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,520 freedom now. But at the same time, I can tell 573 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,760 you I slightly miss some time to have a preview because I did 574 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,880 like the experience of sitting in a big cinema and and to 575 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,360 experience random people watching the work that you've 576 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,960 done. Because then you would go back 577 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:19,440 to your editing room knowing where maybe to extend a little 578 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:25,280 reaction shot or of get a better reaction to get a better laugh 579 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,400 or a better emotional impact on, on on because you know as 580 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,680 editors, you know you can't get things right all the time. 581 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:40,280 The the worst enemy of an editor is to is to be pretentious is to 582 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,480 be presumptuous is to think that you know how to do things. 583 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,880 You're first thing, things sometimes are good, but then 584 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:56,520 working the material and testing it helps to understand how to 585 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:03,080 make it possibly better. I cut normally I this is one 586 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:09,920 thing that it's probably very different from from the way both 587 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:16,240 film and televisions have worked in, in Europe, or I mean, now 588 00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,920 I'm saying Europe because UK it's out of the Europe, I'm 589 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,480 afraid. But anyway, the in the in the 590 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,600 British and American school of film making, the editor starts 591 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,760 on the first day of shoot. And I grew up with that 592 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:36,680 mentality obviously in Europe, in French cinema, in, I think 593 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,560 even in Italian cinema, there's a different approach. 594 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,600 Editors starts to work later with the directors in the room. 595 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,000 They discovered the film together, and that's also a 596 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,520 beautiful process. I mean, the director I'm working 597 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,800 with now, Noah Baumbach, that's the way he does it. 598 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,480 And you have to respect that way of working. 599 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:02,040 But with Joe, for instance, I've always started on the first day 600 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,560 of the shoot with Stephen Frears. 601 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,120 This the same Stephen Frears, for instance, would call me, He 602 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,840 would never watch rushes, never come to watch any edit during 603 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,320 the shoot. But he would call me every day 604 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:19,600 asking me how's the how's the footage? 605 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:21,160 How's the footage I shot yesterday? 606 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,200 Did the scene work? And it sounds like a simple 607 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,240 question, but it's a terrifying question because he's, he's on 608 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,080 to something. He wants to know if he has 609 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:38,320 delivered the, the scene. He wants to know, did I get the 610 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,200 scene right? Did I tell the story? 611 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,240 And because as the editor is the first person who is the, you 612 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,800 know, the first audience of the, of the, you know, of the film 613 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,200 that is still not being cut, but you're kind of assembling it 614 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,400 together. You have you have the 615 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,400 responsibility and and that's that was a great. 616 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,760 Training for me. Because I was basically helping 617 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,320 him to either direct better or in a scene that is shot over two 618 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,840 or three days to go back and say, hey, you need to redo that 619 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,800 because that didn't work. You need to redo that close up. 620 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,760 And that happened a lot on Darkest Hours, for instance. 621 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,080 I I like. This way of working it's how I 622 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,440 did it and it's how I did it even in documentaries somehow. 623 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaking about documentary, you have a question about another 624 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,680 successful series. You got sample directed by your 625 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,120 wife Cosima Spenner. My I'm curious about how did you 626 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,520 build dramaturgy in a documentary series. 627 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,120 Of course, it all revolves around the figure of the 628 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:49,280 protagonist mutually and how it is perceived by the audience. 629 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,160 It's, it's a, it's a bit like Mussolini, some, some of the 630 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,120 century. It's about a man who wants to do 631 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,360 something good. But then he kind of. 632 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,440 Plays with fire. And, and he becomes a real, you 633 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:13,400 know, he has, he has a trip down for Lita Grande, you know, and, 634 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,560 and, and this, it becomes bigger than him. 635 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,680 It's a very saintly story. You know, it's about a man who 636 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:28,920 becomes a guru, a St. a saviour. When you help people, you become 637 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,560 a hero. And that's a hero's journey. 638 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,720 So the narrative of this, of Sampa was always kind of clear 639 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,360 from the start. But in documentaries you you, 640 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,480 you have to rely on sources and footage, on archives and then 641 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,680 obviously on interview. And Kozma never made a film with 642 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,440 interviews. Her style is very observational, 643 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,040 so for her was a bit of a struggle. 644 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,080 To suddenly go into this format with sitting people sitting down 645 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,520 in A room. Yeah, she, she, she embraced it. 646 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,080 She did it. She did it even with a very 647 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,760 distinct style. And obviously there was like 648 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,440 what we call in Italian Scalita, there was like a a board, a 649 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,640 grid. Yeah, there was a kind of grid. 650 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,840 I would call it the grid of what the structure was, but that was 651 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,760 loose. And then in the edit, we started 652 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,680 building different timelines of narrative stories of the 653 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:32,080 character that were interviewed. And a lot of things, a lot of 654 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,600 turning points narratively came in the edit room so Cosima could 655 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,680 go back and reshoot. And then we used a lot of 656 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,840 footage, Super 8 footage from this amazing archive place 657 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,920 called the Home Movies that basically collects Super 8 658 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:52,360 footage of Italian families from, you know, just people who 659 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,160 finds Super 8 in an old box in a, in a, in a cellar. 660 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,480 And instead of tracking it, they give it to this company who then 661 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:05,440 digitize it and turn and allowed film makers like Cosima and me 662 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,920 and, and to, to use it as a kind of narrative device. 663 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,960 It's wonderful. I mean, I really it's a it's a 664 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:18,040 doing documentaries is a wonderful. 665 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,400 It's a wonderful expression for, for the for the editors, because 666 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,560 you are becoming the writer of the film often not recognised, 667 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,400 but you know, it is. It is a very satisfying a job, 668 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,840 particularly I think editing documentaries, because the 669 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,680 contribution an editor gives is immense, I think. 670 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,680 We we discovered you are represented by an agency as an 671 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,600 editor and it's something that in Italy it's very rare or I 672 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,400 think nobody because it's something that maybe belongs to 673 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,640 the Angus Angus action, the British or American word, maybe 674 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,480 no. So we wanted to know if you can 675 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,120 tell how does it work? Do they, do you apply? 676 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,720 It's like here for directors that you apply and they decide 677 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:08,680 if you they represent you or not. 678 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,600 Do they handle your job requests or job offers? 679 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,400 They negotiate. Yeah, that I, I, I noticed since 680 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,920 the beginning that, that that was one other big difference 681 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,120 between the Anglo Sax, you know, the, the, the, the Anglo 682 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:30,440 American way of doing business was that both all the below the 683 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,280 line key figures in film making like director of photography, 684 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,120 the editors, production designer, they would all be 685 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,600 represented by an agent in the UK and in America. 686 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,360 So since graduating from film school, the director of 687 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,240 photography would be able to find an agent pretty easily 688 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,720 because the director of photography has show reel to 689 00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,480 show because you know, the the work of an of of a director of 690 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,960 photography is is visible. The work of a music composer is 691 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,280 hearable. The work of an editor is 692 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,720 invisible. So I remember making show reels 693 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,640 of my work to trying to find an agent just after film school and 694 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,840 finding it really hard because in the end, a show reel is just 695 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,360 showing bits of my films. That is the collection of my 696 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,240 films, but it's not showing my skill as an editor. 697 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,680 It's obvious that to find a job as an editor, you need to create 698 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,440 a network of people that know you and know your work and know 699 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,200 your potential. And it's about word of mouth and 700 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:45,440 people who can recommend you. So I was struggling in the 701 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,280 beginning to find an agent. And then I found an agent. 702 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,800 You know, when I did my first film with, with Dino De 703 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,800 Laurentiis and Hannibal Rising, I didn't have an agent. 704 00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:01,240 My deal was kind of done by by Pietra's agent. 705 00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:05,240 So after I finished that film, I finally had my first credit and 706 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,680 I was going and shopping around London and a lot of agency 707 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,800 actually told me, no, we're not interested to take you because 708 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,640 we already have too many people we can't represent, blah, blah, 709 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,000 blah. Then I found a really wonderful 710 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,560 woman who was called Sarah Pritchard, who was working at an 711 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,600 agency called Casa Rato in London. 712 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,920 They still exist. It was just an we, we, we 713 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,080 personally clicked and we got along and we, we like he. 714 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,360 She liked me. She liked my energy and the fact 715 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,920 that I was very eager and, and kind of had good connection. 716 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,880 She knew she could help me and she, she, she did help me at the 717 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,800 beginning. She got me through the door to 718 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,360 get meetings with the projects and producer that I could have 719 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,280 never got through the door project that I wasn't offered. 720 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,120 But still it's was a good opportunity to go through the 721 00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,320 door. I think. 722 00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,880 Is it necessary to have an agent? 723 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:01,120 In the UK? It is. 724 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,640 In the US it is. But once you then start your 725 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,560 career, not necessarily It's the agent who gets you the job. 726 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,920 It's your reputation, the agents really at some point in your in, 727 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,440 in my career, what they've done really good is that they, you 728 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,480 know, obviously it's the first port of call. 729 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,040 People call the agency to try to see if I'm available or not. 730 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,240 But obviously now I've established A reputation, so 731 00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:31,520 people check on my availability. But ultimately it's still, you 732 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,680 know, it's still the word of mouth. 733 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,720 You know, even in the job I'm doing now with Noah Baumbach, he 734 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:42,360 called, he called several people who knew me, and then I got 735 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,200 recommended by them. So it's still, even if if you're 736 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:51,600 established, it's still one of those jobs that the people who, 737 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,400 you know, director or producer, they tend to get, yeah, to 738 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,640 listen to the agent. But ultimately they listened 739 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,120 more to other colleagues and the agents help you. 740 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,320 To get a good rate, a good. Contract good money and it's a 741 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,440 side that I've always been very bad at. 742 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,600 So I you, you have to give them a percentage and that's OK, 743 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,440 because whatever percentage they get you, it's always a 744 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,480 percentage that I would have never managed to get myself. 745 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,080 Let's switch the topic for a moment. 746 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,720 I would like to come back actually to a person. 747 00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:27,880 You mentioned it earlier in our conversation on the famous 748 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,880 producer Dino De Laurentiis, because you said that you have 749 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,760 100 of stories about him. And now you got me really 750 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,320 curious. Can you share? 751 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,040 I don't know one of these stories. 752 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:46,800 Dina was an extraordinary larger than life character, you know. 753 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,360 He would be. Annoying and crazy. 754 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,840 He would turn up at 9:00 AM in the morning. 755 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,400 I mean, you know, a workaholic to the point of being very 756 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,680 annoying but very passionate. And I remember we were 757 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,760 struggling to find a composer. And I was temping the film with 758 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,280 a lot of music from this amazing Japanese composer called Sugero 759 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:16,240 Yuumi Bayashi, who did the music for In the Mood for Love. 760 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,560 And so Dino said he speaks with a very voice like this. 761 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,400 I like this music, Valerio, what is this music? 762 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,400 And I said, well, is this guy from Japan? 763 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:33,120 Find me his number. So I go on IMDb and I found IMDb 764 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,640 Pro and I find him the phone number of this manager that 765 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,000 represents him in represents this man in Japan. 766 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,440 I said, Dino, you're never going to find it. 767 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,440 No, let's call him. You know, that's the phone 768 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,160 number. An answer machine comes up 769 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,960 because it's, you know, we were in the afternoon. 770 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,800 So in Tokyo, it's like middle of the night. 771 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,120 Say hello. I am Dino De Laurentiis, the 772 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:02,840 famous producers who produced King Kong and Hannibal Lecter. 773 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,080 I want to work with you. Call me. 774 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,760 This is my number. And he said the number, you 775 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,800 wouldn't believe it, but this man was in London with us in the 776 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,600 room 2 days later. Well, he literally called him 777 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,920 back immediately, took a plane and he came and he did the film 778 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,000 score for Hannibal Rising. And we've been friends ever 779 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,560 since with this man. He's an extraordinary film 780 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,240 composer. And that's, that's how Dina was. 781 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,560 Dina was like that. He was just like when he wanted 782 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,240 something, he just got it. He just called up. 783 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,240 Let's go for our our classical last question. 784 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,880 What would you have become if you didn't become an editor? 785 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,240 I was, I, I've always been a visual person, a musical person. 786 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:53,600 As a little kid, I used to add a wild fantasy and I would go to 787 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:59,560 my mum's office on a Saturday in Florence in Piazza San Marco and 788 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,640 go to my local record shop and, and buy a records. 789 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:06,800 And I really, and I love the classical music a lot. 790 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,320 I used to as a child, I used to only listen to classical music. 791 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:17,080 I liked Verdi, I like Rossini, I liked Beethoven, Mozart, 792 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,680 Tchaikovsky. And I used to buy a record every 793 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,440 week. And I remember putting a record 794 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,400 up in my room and sitting on a kind of chair and dreaming to be 795 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,640 an orchestra conductor. So maybe that's what I would 796 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,160 have liked to do, is to be to do music. 797 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,400 Thank you very much, Valerio. Thanks, Valerio. 798 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,800 Editor Synonymous is a podcast by Pierpaolo Filomeno, Beppe 799 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:47,080 Lonetti and Arma Savchenko. Music by Isakokyav If you enjoy 800 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,840 the podcast and want to stay in the loop, follow us on Spotify, 801 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,880 Instagram or Facebook. Thanks for listening and see you 802 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:55,440 next time.