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From July 25th to the 27th 2024, 40 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:10,850 we'll be taking the Bitcoin Conference in the City of Music 41 00:02:10,889 --> 00:02:15,470 and Freedom Nashville, TN. Join thousands of attendees for 42 00:02:15,470 --> 00:02:18,910 countless opportunities to learn, engage and network across 43 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:23,270 3 days of pure Bitcoin signal. Get your tickets now for the 44 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:26,510 best price at BTC forward slash conference. 45 00:02:26,790 --> 00:02:29,390 You are not going to want to miss what Nashville has in 46 00:02:29,390 --> 00:02:31,900 store. Bitcoiners, welcome back to 47 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:35,220 another episode of Bitcoin Magazine Podcast. 48 00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:40,300 I am joined today by the two cofounders of LIPA, Patrick and 49 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:41,900 Bastian. Really looking forward to 50 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:45,100 talking about their Lightning wallet and the services that 51 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:47,180 they provide. So I'll be joined by them right 52 00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:49,430 now by. Patrick and Bashin, welcome to 53 00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:50,750 the show. Thanks for having you guys. 54 00:02:51,390 --> 00:02:54,070 So you guys are a company based at Switzerland. 55 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:56,510 You guys obviously are the cofounders of LIPA. 56 00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:58,950 So for our audience, if you guys just want to give a brief 57 00:02:58,950 --> 00:03:01,550 overview, maybe we'll start with you, Patrick, of what LIPA is, 58 00:03:01,550 --> 00:03:04,670 what services you provide and then anything you want to share 59 00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:07,910 about your business. So nice to meet you all. 60 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:10,550 I'm Patrick. I'm the CEO and one of three 61 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:13,710 cofounders at LIPA. And yeah, we are a Bitcoin 62 00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:17,470 company, obviously, and our vision is accessible financial 63 00:03:17,470 --> 00:03:20,150 freedom. And what this exactly means is 64 00:03:20,470 --> 00:03:26,310 we want to make it very easy for people, not only bitcoiners, to 65 00:03:26,630 --> 00:03:31,070 use Bitcoin as a means of payment, as a means of exchange. 66 00:03:31,670 --> 00:03:35,030 And therefore, of course we are using Lightning, that's an 67 00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:37,670 obvious one. And we're working on the past is 68 00:03:37,710 --> 00:03:40,510 we were working on a business, a vote for business, so businesses 69 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:45,270 can actually receive payments. And as a as the next logical 70 00:03:45,270 --> 00:03:49,040 step for us was we want to. Enable not only businesses but 71 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,040 also everyone else to use kind of the payment. 72 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,280 So we were working on aligning wallet the last year and we just 73 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,800 released it in June and currently we're focusing on 74 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,240 improving this one. And yeah, that will be the short 75 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,280 version of who we are. Yeah, definitely. 76 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:06,600 Bastion. Anything you want to add to 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,040 that? Now we expect it very well. 78 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,440 It's just in my regards, I am the CIO of LIPA. 79 00:04:14,260 --> 00:04:18,060 And as Patrick already said, we have a third person again which 80 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:21,420 is the CTO, which is like another part of the team. 81 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:23,900 Definitely awesome. Yeah. 82 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:25,740 I think it's very important. I think using. 83 00:04:25,740 --> 00:04:28,580 I know Matt Odell's a good friend of mine, he always says 84 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:32,260 privacy is not secrecy, but privacy is what you selectively 85 00:04:32,260 --> 00:04:35,500 decide to reveal to the world or and I think that's very 86 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:37,340 important. I know he highlights the fact 87 00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:40,220 that using Bitcoin privately is a way to keep yourself 88 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:42,980 sovereignty and to keep your freedom, basically because if 89 00:04:43,020 --> 00:04:44,540 everyone knows everything that. Are doing. 90 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:47,580 Whether it's governments or large, large corporations, 91 00:04:47,620 --> 00:04:50,340 obviously you can be controlled because of the lack of privacy, 92 00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:53,180 so obviously privacy is very near and dear to my heart, but 93 00:04:53,340 --> 00:04:56,700 I'd love to hear how you guys have improved privacy. 94 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:59,340 Obviously, many people say sending Bitcoin privately via 95 00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:01,520 lightning. Is very good, but receiving it 96 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,560 can be a challenge at times. That docs is your IP address or 97 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,280 just what you're using. So I'd love to hear either 98 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:10,960 Bashing or Patrick, Either one of you can take this of how do 99 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,240 you use Bitcoin more privately with the service or the wallet 100 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,280 that you have. Yes, as Patrick already said, we 101 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,800 are currently implementing the non custodian lightning wallet 102 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,480 and with that we take a part of the, we take the part of the 103 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,820 LSP. So we do lightning service 104 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:33,260 provider in that terms that we open and or managing basically 105 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:37,020 tenants like Phoenix does for our users. 106 00:05:37,860 --> 00:05:40,900 What we have thought about is there's always pathfinding 107 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,660 involved if it wants to send funds or receive funds. 108 00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:47,100 Basically when it wants to send funds. 109 00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:50,300 What Phoenix does is basically does trumping routing. 110 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:54,140 Means Phoenix does all the does all the routing. 111 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,680 The path finding for the wallet and then returns the information 112 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,880 to the wallet and sends it off. What deeper does is we use the 113 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:07,040 rapid gossips and protocol. So we have our own watchdog on 114 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:13,640 the rapid gossip protocol and with that we crunch it. 115 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,040 We crunch all the network topology in one and send it to 116 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,240 the phone so the phone and the wallet lighting wallet on the 117 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,920 phone can do its own path finding. 118 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,560 So yes, we have. Information about how much funds 119 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,840 go back and forth, because we're handling the channels we have 120 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,440 view onto the balance of the channel, but we never know where 121 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,520 to send it or where the funds were sent or where the funds 122 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,200 come from. Yeah, that's fascinating. 123 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,120 I guess my question is, it's very interesting. 124 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:44,920 Obviously you're running a non custodial wallet. 125 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,640 That's my preferred method of choice. 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,880 But for someone or business or individuals setting it up, do 127 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,360 they use their own node or is this something that you provide? 128 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,600 Or is there an option to do it not custodial with your node or 129 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:56,840 not custodial with their own node? 130 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,320 I'd love your thoughts on that. So currently as we just started, 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,560 Patrick said, we launched the application in June that was 132 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,480 like to the equation of the BTC park, we announced our public 133 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,750 beta. And with that, we are in a very 134 00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:13,150 early stage with the application. 135 00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:17,430 So for now, Lepo provides as the LSP provides the channel opening 136 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:22,510 and provides the inbound liquidity channels to the node. 137 00:07:23,470 --> 00:07:25,110 OK. Yeah, that's really fascinating. 138 00:07:25,470 --> 00:07:28,790 So I guess as of right now, you guys have said on your website 139 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:32,230 that you have obviously the option or you're an LSP for 140 00:07:32,350 --> 00:07:34,590 individuals and businesses as of right now. 141 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:37,470 I guess maybe to you, Patrick, is that an option right now or 142 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:40,870 were the two different buckets for providing an LSP service to 143 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:44,390 personal or businesses? Yeah, first step, obviously we 144 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:49,030 are the LSP for our own wallet, which is the consumer faced 145 00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:51,370 wallet. Before we were working with 146 00:07:51,370 --> 00:07:54,610 businesses, everything was a little bit easier because we 147 00:07:54,610 --> 00:07:57,410 were running 1 central note for the businesses. 148 00:07:58,250 --> 00:08:02,330 But of course our vision is not to stop there and go further. 149 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:07,890 The next logical steps in our that we will open up the LSP in 150 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:10,850 the future that other companies can use it. 151 00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:15,050 That is 1111 logical step. But the other one is also what 152 00:08:15,050 --> 00:08:18,170 we want to implement in our wallet is that you can actually 153 00:08:18,170 --> 00:08:21,880 choose your own. LSP, so you can choose whatever 154 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,160 lightning service you want to use, You can choose for example 155 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,800 breezes, LSP or whoever's. So that's the vision for the 156 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,720 future. This will also, yeah increase 157 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,080 first of all the privacy aspect, but also it will increase the 158 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,880 flexibility and also the the being able to send funds if one 159 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,560 of those LSP might go down or yeah, gets regulated out. 160 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:50,950 Yeah, now that that makes sense. I know historically it's very, 161 00:08:50,990 --> 00:08:53,790 it's been very difficult for Bitcoin wallets in order to be 162 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:55,990 profitable. We've seen just in years past 163 00:08:56,190 --> 00:08:59,070 normally it seems like probably the most successful model aside 164 00:08:59,070 --> 00:09:00,910 from being an exchange that has your own wallet. 165 00:09:01,310 --> 00:09:03,270 Obviously they make money on the exchange and then using the 166 00:09:03,270 --> 00:09:07,070 wallet as a loss leader or or basically offering coin join 167 00:09:07,070 --> 00:09:09,710 implementations in your in your business model. 168 00:09:09,710 --> 00:09:12,230 Do you see it providing LSP services as a way to become 169 00:09:12,230 --> 00:09:15,350 profitable or coin joins or maybe opening up an exchange or 170 00:09:15,350 --> 00:09:17,550 a way to buy a spot Bitcoin? I'd love your thoughts on. 171 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:19,070 Patrick. Yeah. 172 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:23,230 So what we are working currently or what they're working on 173 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:26,350 currently is an exchange integration. 174 00:09:26,350 --> 00:09:29,350 It's not our own exchange. We work with a partner, but it 175 00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:32,590 will be directly into Lightning. So this is the next release 176 00:09:32,590 --> 00:09:34,950 we're going to do. A big feature release is going 177 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:38,630 to be you can buy from Fiat directly into Lightning in the 178 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:41,550 whole in Switzerland and whole Europe, basically not every 179 00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:44,550 country, but most countries. This is step one. 180 00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:48,380 So, yeah, of course this can be profitable, but it's only one 181 00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:50,980 one part. What we are looking into mostly 182 00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:54,860 is actually additional features to the wallet that could be 183 00:09:55,260 --> 00:09:58,580 monetized. Yeah, one, one example would be 184 00:09:58,580 --> 00:10:02,140 that you could have a different use of Ellen address. 185 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:04,660 Ellen address itself. Yeah, very simple. 186 00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:07,900 It's a simple technology built on lightning. 187 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:11,020 But of course we could implement something like you can send 188 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:13,770 funds to a phone number. And this can be in another 189 00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:17,170 country and there we could charge a little bit because of 190 00:10:17,170 --> 00:10:20,090 course we will have to deal with regulation and all of that. 191 00:10:20,570 --> 00:10:23,930 But I think, yeah, additional feature on top of standard 192 00:10:23,930 --> 00:10:29,370 Lightning is the most logical place to monetize a business. 193 00:10:30,310 --> 00:10:32,750 Yeah, no, that makes sense. Speaking of like a dit, 194 00:10:32,750 --> 00:10:36,590 additional features and stuff. Recently Dusty Damon announced 195 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:38,670 splicing, or at least he announced it last year at 196 00:10:38,670 --> 00:10:41,910 Bitcoin 2022 and showed it. But really, we've seen the first 197 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:45,190 implementation with it at Async or Phoenix while implementing 198 00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:48,030 splicing into the beta form. Is this something that you guys 199 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:51,470 are excited for with your wallet and being an LSP provider for 200 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:55,230 basically just in time liquidity of lightning and Sacs being able 201 00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:57,870 to change channels or splice channels in and out to make them 202 00:10:57,870 --> 00:10:59,350 bigger? Maybe I can toss that over to 203 00:10:59,350 --> 00:11:01,270 you bash and what are your thoughts on splicing and its 204 00:11:01,270 --> 00:11:02,670 implementation with with you guys? 205 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:07,710 Yes, splicing is definitely a good thing when it comes to to 206 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,070 channel management. For now it's we always have two 207 00:11:10,070 --> 00:11:13,670 Bitcoin on chain transactions to open and close the channel. 208 00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:19,510 And if we could use splicing for liquidity management within the 209 00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:22,070 channel, this would be a huge thing for us. 210 00:11:22,590 --> 00:11:27,190 As far as I know currently just Eclair has this feature and 211 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:29,910 unfortunately currently we do not run on Eclair. 212 00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:34,710 So our back end is L&D based, but we are hoping and see and 213 00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:37,390 hopefully see a splicing with L&D as well. 214 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,780 Yeah, and I know L&D and both core Lightning are trying to 215 00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:44,260 implement splicing. It just seems that Async and the 216 00:11:44,260 --> 00:11:47,260 Eclair team beat them to that. Are there any other features 217 00:11:47,260 --> 00:11:49,380 that you guys are really excited for on Lightning or things that 218 00:11:49,380 --> 00:11:51,980 you're looking forward to? I know BOLT 12 normally comes to 219 00:11:51,980 --> 00:11:53,100 mind. This is something that's been on 220 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:56,260 the docket for for many years and I know these things don't 221 00:11:56,260 --> 00:11:58,780 happen overnight for sure. But I guess any thoughts, 222 00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:01,980 Patrick or Bashin, about like future features that you're 223 00:12:01,980 --> 00:12:07,180 looking forward to on Lightning? Personally, I'm really. 224 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,480 Looking forward to the day when this will be possible because it 225 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,400 can be a challenge. We love that many companies are 226 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,160 working on self custodial wallets but receiving funds it's 227 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,720 just a pain if you need to be online at any time. 228 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,520 So your phone basically when this is the place where your 229 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,290 node is running. It needs to be online and the 230 00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:31,970 north needs to be running and this is a big challenge with 231 00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:36,410 also the restrictions on my mobile phones and yeah, async 232 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:37,690 payments. Enlightening. 233 00:12:37,690 --> 00:12:42,010 I think it will be a game changer because for the general 234 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:43,970 audience this will be much more logical. 235 00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:48,370 I can just send funds to Bastian Bastion, for example, without 236 00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:52,290 asking him to be online. This is for me, is going to be 237 00:12:52,290 --> 00:12:54,290 great. So, yeah, looking forward to 238 00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:57,020 that. Yeah. 239 00:12:57,140 --> 00:12:58,260 Anything you're looking forward to? 240 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:02,500 I'm really looking forward to top route key splicing or key 241 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:06,900 distributing key show over different areas is definitely a 242 00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:09,860 point for us when it comes to node security. 243 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:13,620 This is one thing I'm really looking forward to and as 244 00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:18,620 Patrick said, both 12 us something which I think is some 245 00:13:18,620 --> 00:13:21,980 kind of a next level. We have Ln URL, we have lighting 246 00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:25,020 addresses, but for me it's just a workaround. 247 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:28,770 Because it brings a custodian into a system which should be 248 00:13:28,810 --> 00:13:31,490 non custodian. Yeah, definitely. 249 00:13:31,810 --> 00:13:34,450 I guess I know that there was a lot of controversy at Bitcoin 250 00:13:34,450 --> 00:13:38,330 2023, the year that just happened with Barack mentioning 251 00:13:38,330 --> 00:13:40,290 ARC, and I know that this is something that's not fully 252 00:13:40,290 --> 00:13:42,570 fleshed out. I know it's a competing layer 253 00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:43,930 two. I know I've seen many of the 254 00:13:43,930 --> 00:13:46,090 Lightning companies saying why don't we fix the things we 255 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:49,410 currently have versus making a new implementation on layer two. 256 00:13:49,410 --> 00:13:51,690 What are your thoughts on ARC? Have you guys looked into it at 257 00:13:51,690 --> 00:13:53,530 all? Do you think this is not Fudd 258 00:13:53,530 --> 00:13:55,570 but competition to Lightning, or do you think they can? 259 00:13:55,850 --> 00:13:57,570 It coexists. So I love your thoughts either 260 00:13:57,570 --> 00:14:00,930 Patrick or fashion on that. Generally speaking, I love 261 00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:03,290 competition and I love innovation. 262 00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:05,890 When I look at other implementations, I think it's 263 00:14:05,890 --> 00:14:07,850 great to look into it. At least. 264 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:11,610 I'm not sure if it's really the right way to go, if it will be 265 00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:14,290 the same level as Lightning or even better. 266 00:14:14,650 --> 00:14:17,410 But generally speaking, I love when there are several 267 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:19,850 technologies dealing with the same problem. 268 00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:21,850 Then we can find out which one is actually really the. 269 00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:25,350 The right way to go in the long term and which one really solves 270 00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:28,030 the problems that we have. So yeah, that's my general 271 00:14:28,030 --> 00:14:30,350 answer to that. It could be to any technology. 272 00:14:30,830 --> 00:14:33,310 Sorry for that. Yeah, no, definitely passion. 273 00:14:33,310 --> 00:14:36,190 Any thoughts on that as well? Yes, I'm listening to a lot of 274 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:41,230 podcasts and ARC was topic of many podcasts and from what I 275 00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:47,910 understood is that ARC solves the liquidity problem or the 276 00:14:48,430 --> 00:14:52,060 tenant opening problem. With a coin, a Bitcoin chain 277 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:56,100 transaction every five seconds. And so with this it does a coin 278 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:58,060 join and so on. It brings in more a little bit 279 00:14:58,060 --> 00:15:01,700 more privacy. Yes, enough, but I think a layer 280 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:05,820 two should really get the heat of a base layer. 281 00:15:06,460 --> 00:15:11,580 And with that I think Lightning for now and for me is the better 282 00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:13,940 way. But it might be that I didn't 283 00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:18,420 fully understand ARC and where the real benefits here are. 284 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:22,460 Yeah, definitely. So I would be remiss if I didn't 285 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:24,700 bring up regulations. So obviously guys are based in 286 00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:27,100 Switzerland, correct me if I'm wrong, the Switzerland is not 287 00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,100 part of the EU, is that correct? Correct. 288 00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:33,580 I know the EU has been trying to clamp down on payments. 289 00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:36,700 It seems like they'd love to push their own CBDC similar to 290 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:39,780 what China and India have tried to roll out, even Nigeria as 291 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:41,860 well. So I guess you guys fall in this 292 00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:44,700 weird spot because I associated you guys with the EU, but 293 00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,380 obviously under a different regulations and jurisdictions. 294 00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:49,740 What is it like been trying to provide I'm assuming? 295 00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:52,860 Customer support, not just for Swiss customers, but people in 296 00:15:52,860 --> 00:15:55,500 the EU and even selfishly someone being in the US. 297 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:59,820 I guess what it's like, would you guys future plans to help US 298 00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:02,380 based customers as well or are you going to stick to 299 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:05,820 Switzerland, the EU and and what have been the conflicting 300 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:08,260 problems with regulations across basically three different 301 00:16:08,260 --> 00:16:10,900 jurisdictions, if not Asia as well added into the mix? 302 00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:14,790 Patrick, I'll go with you first. Our first talk of course is 303 00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:16,990 Switzerland. It's the easiest for us and it's 304 00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:19,550 about regulation. It's we know it, we are here and 305 00:16:19,630 --> 00:16:23,750 we, yeah, it's our home, but we are not only working in 306 00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:26,270 Switzerland, but also in in Europe. 307 00:16:26,510 --> 00:16:30,830 We are actually allowed to operate in, or at least before 308 00:16:30,830 --> 00:16:35,350 me come, we are allowed to work in European countries when we 309 00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:38,910 are regulated in Switzerland. You can see other companies like 310 00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:42,800 Pocket Bitcoin for example. Or relay the exchanges that are 311 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,720 also working in other countries in in Europe route of 312 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,280 Switzerland, this is totally fine, but with Nico there will 313 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,400 be a lot of changes that we know already, but there's a lot of 314 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,200 things that are also fully unclear. 315 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,920 So it's very, very hard to say what exactly will be the impact, 316 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,360 but it definitely will have impact on also Swiss companies 317 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,760 and we most likely will have to open a subsidiary in European 318 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,020 country. For European Union country and 319 00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:11,300 we will have to get regulated by NICA. 320 00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:16,380 But until this is fully in in implemented, everything stays as 321 00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:18,460 before. As you can see there is many 322 00:17:18,460 --> 00:17:21,260 companies from Switzerland, companies working in European 323 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:23,819 Union. You also asked about US. 324 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,020 It's not if we don't focus, we will kill ourselves as a 325 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:28,339 startup. It's for example. 326 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:33,180 We had to learn this also very hard already in the past as as 327 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:36,180 LIPA, but also before we even were named LIPA. 328 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,160 We are working together for about 3 years, the three of us 3 329 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,640 cofounders. And yeah, focus is the more main 330 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,400 thing that we need to look into it in the first years. 331 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,880 And that's why we focus on Europe. 332 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Of course, we would love to be in other countries like the US, 333 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,120 but also like Nigeria and other hotspots. 334 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,520 But yeah, looking at all them, it will distract us from 335 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,640 delivering a great wallet. And great wallet is what we are 336 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,640 focusing on at the moment and delivering this to at least 337 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,640 Europe, yes. Yeah, that makes sense. 338 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,080 Yeah, I hate to keep on the regulatory framework, but I know 339 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,280 I've heard of Mika and I didn't know when it was gonna be 340 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,960 implemented, what year or what month. 341 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,720 And then also if you can give a brief breakdown of what Mika 342 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,200 could do, not just for your business, for Lightning or 343 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,720 Bitcoin businesses in general, if you can give me a breakdown, 344 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,030 Patrick, that would be great. If I was able to give you a 345 00:18:25,030 --> 00:18:27,390 breakdown, I will be the probably the only one in whole 346 00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:31,950 Europe who can do this, but that's my personal view on it 347 00:18:32,030 --> 00:18:35,110 without makeup. We had a Gray area around a lot 348 00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:38,430 of services in crypto and Bitcoin. 349 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:41,670 Of course they don't tackle Bitcoin specifically, but 350 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:44,750 actually crypto. But what it will do is 351 00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:46,830 definitely make some things more clear. 352 00:18:47,530 --> 00:18:50,570 If they will really help us, that's to be investigated. 353 00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:55,010 But what could happen in my eyes is that Bitcoin, and 354 00:18:55,010 --> 00:18:58,530 unfortunately the crypto, becomes even more accepted by 355 00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:02,370 the general public. And this of course can help us 356 00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:04,650 tremendously. What on the other side will 357 00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:07,890 happen is it will make. Our life much more expensive. 358 00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:11,210 All the companies working in Europe, we will have to deal 359 00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:14,770 with this paperwork. We will have to hire lawyers to 360 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:18,130 to look into all the details and this will be quite cost 361 00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:20,730 intensive and also very slow process. 362 00:19:21,210 --> 00:19:24,330 I heard the numbers from one to two years until this can be 363 00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:28,210 implemented and this is just not supporting a lot of the 364 00:19:28,210 --> 00:19:31,170 innovation in the whole space. But generally speaking, I think 365 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:34,610 it could make things a bit easier long term. 366 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:38,740 Thinking about having or knowing what where are we are at and 367 00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:42,460 what is the rule and what not. Yeah, if there's one thing I've 368 00:19:42,460 --> 00:19:45,220 learned being in the working world for a few years here now, 369 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:48,740 is that lawyers always seem to get paid at the end of the day, 370 00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:52,580 with any company you know, any regulation, any ruling, any 371 00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:54,900 lawsuit, it seems to be the lawyers, the ones that makes out 372 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,740 the bandit, not the companies, the dealing with these issues. 373 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,520 Getting off the regulatory topic because you know you'll drive 374 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,520 anyone mad by listening to it and obviously Bitcoin tries to 375 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,480 be outside of or lives within it, but outside of the confines 376 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,320 of the state. I guess what things are you 377 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,080 excited for LIPA and things that you're bringing forward? 378 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,920 Anything that you want to bring up as we begin to close this 379 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,960 interview here? Anything Bastion or Patrick you 380 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,600 guys want to bring up? Bastion, you want to go first 381 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,160 or? No, go first, Patrick. 382 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,070 It's a long list I have to think, but I'm excited for now. 383 00:20:27,070 --> 00:20:30,430 I'm first of all excited that for LIPA that we will have our 384 00:20:30,430 --> 00:20:33,070 wallet on Android as well soon in a better. 385 00:20:33,550 --> 00:20:36,590 What I'm super excited about is that we have exchange 386 00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:40,510 implemented soon we will be able to see how it's going with on 387 00:20:40,510 --> 00:20:42,950 ramp directly from Fiat to lightning. 388 00:20:43,390 --> 00:20:47,190 What I'm also excited about is yeah, following the whole 389 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:50,670 development and hopefully having we were mentioning what we would 390 00:20:50,670 --> 00:20:53,790 love to see enlightening, right? And I really hope that one or 391 00:20:53,790 --> 00:20:57,630 two of those will be even close to to to reality this year. 392 00:20:57,630 --> 00:21:01,630 Because yeah, some features like sending money to a phone number 393 00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:05,630 or sending money across borders will be much easier if if we 394 00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:07,990 could do it without being a custodian in the middle with 395 00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:10,870 Ellen address. And yes, I'm really looking 396 00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:13,990 forward in such features. And what I'm also looking 397 00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:16,510 forward to is, yeah, getting more feedback on our wallet. 398 00:21:16,550 --> 00:21:20,310 I know that there's worldwide a lot more people are looking into 399 00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:23,070 Android app and we started with iOS. 400 00:21:23,630 --> 00:21:26,390 And yeah, I'm really curious how this is going to go and where we 401 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:28,070 will go with all the feedbacks, yeah. 402 00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:30,670 Definitely fashion anything you're looking forward to on the 403 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:33,270 road map with LIPA. Yeah, for sure. 404 00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:37,230 We we live and breathe LIPA now. For me, the most exciting part 405 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:40,270 is definitely as I'm more tech, the LSP part. 406 00:21:40,430 --> 00:21:42,590 There are so many. Obstacles. 407 00:21:42,590 --> 00:21:46,470 There are so many uncertainties at the moment within the time 408 00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:48,950 frame. We already managed to build an 409 00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:54,790 LSP and already running it, but still we have still some some 410 00:21:54,790 --> 00:21:58,550 obstacles to overcome. This is probably one of the most 411 00:21:58,630 --> 00:22:02,470 exciting stuff for me. And yeah for sure, I really love 412 00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:06,790 to see a non custodian lightning wallet or non custodian wallet 413 00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:10,990 on the market which is very user friendly and even knock on is. 414 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,120 Or normal people like I love to call them models to use this 415 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:20,320 application and to send and be able to enter into the Bitcoin 416 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,000 word, probably without even knowing using Bitcoin. 417 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,520 Yeah, definitely. I guess I had one more question 418 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,000 before we begin the wrap up here. 419 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,800 As you guys are running your own LSP, would you potentially help 420 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,800 other exchanges if you're not already to implement Lightning? 421 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,880 I know many exchanges call by the wayside and don't have 422 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,800 Lightning implemented. I can only think of a handful 423 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,590 that have. Really only implemented them 424 00:22:41,590 --> 00:22:44,630 within the last year, but helping it like exchanges 425 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:46,790 implement lightning and this is something that's new to them. 426 00:22:46,790 --> 00:22:49,230 I know many exchanges unfortunately are crypto 427 00:22:49,230 --> 00:22:51,950 exchanges in my opinion. So they have other coins and 428 00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:54,470 they are not incentivized to implement lightning because it 429 00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:56,990 maybe kill some of the altcoin narratives that they try and 430 00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:58,510 push. But would you try and help 431 00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:02,190 exchanges implement Lightning as an LSP or is that some a service 432 00:23:02,190 --> 00:23:03,910 that you guys are planning to provide in the future for 433 00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:05,750 exchanges? Maybe I'll kick that over to you 434 00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:08,810 Patrick. Yeah, looking at that, I think 435 00:23:08,810 --> 00:23:12,010 what I it's bringing me back to the what I experienced in the 436 00:23:12,010 --> 00:23:15,650 Bitcoin space since I am working in a Bitcoin startup and it's 437 00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:19,170 amazing the help that we were given by different companies and 438 00:23:19,570 --> 00:23:22,410 also how much we were already able to contribute. 439 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:26,250 I just talked to some engineers recently from LIPA and they were 440 00:23:26,250 --> 00:23:30,490 really excited about being able to contribute so much to to the 441 00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:33,470 community. I just yeah delivering some code 442 00:23:33,470 --> 00:23:36,950 or helping with discussions and I I think it's totally our 443 00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:40,790 spirit at LIPA to to support. We are also in contact in 444 00:23:40,790 --> 00:23:43,750 Switzerland with the exchanges we work with one who is enabling 445 00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:46,830 themselves basically. But we are very happy to support 446 00:23:47,310 --> 00:23:50,470 when there is need for support and when there is actually the 447 00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:53,150 will to implement lightning. As you said, not all the 448 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:55,790 exchanges are really looking into this, but if an exchange is 449 00:23:55,790 --> 00:23:58,090 looking into it, you're very happy to support. 450 00:23:58,130 --> 00:23:59,930 Yeah, that's awesome Bastion. Anything you want to add? 451 00:23:59,930 --> 00:24:02,890 Maybe on the back end is what are the technical difficulties? 452 00:24:03,130 --> 00:24:06,210 I'm sure there are many of integrating LSP into exchanges 453 00:24:06,210 --> 00:24:09,450 for the back end. I mean lightning is not an easy 454 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:13,290 topic, it is from the get go. It's very complicated to have 455 00:24:13,290 --> 00:24:16,970 all everything implemented, everything in place to have 456 00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:20,850 working liquidity management. You have a working node 457 00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:23,490 management and so on. And this is an exchange is 458 00:24:23,530 --> 00:24:27,050 usually just sending. He has the liquidity and sends 459 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:31,770 it out to someone else and as Karken or I think Biden started 460 00:24:31,770 --> 00:24:34,890 it as well now they were working for quite a long time of it. 461 00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:40,410 So I think if we can help, I think just ask and we will see 462 00:24:40,410 --> 00:24:42,890 how we can help. Yeah, definitely. 463 00:24:43,090 --> 00:24:46,010 So I guess that's pretty much all the questions that I have 464 00:24:46,010 --> 00:24:48,210 for you guys right now. Is there any questions that you 465 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:50,690 have for me or anything that you want to highlight before we wrap 466 00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:54,000 up here? No, except that I'm really happy 467 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,520 to see not only our wallet developing, of course, we have 468 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,320 to focus on that, but I'm really happy as you as we had in the 469 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,240 discussion before, there is so much innovation going on with 470 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,880 splicing with, with a long list of different features coming 471 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480 from different companies. And I think, yeah, it's amazing 472 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,040 to see what's going and I'm very happy that there's not just one 473 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,400 wallet, but actually a bunch of them that are now also developed 474 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,270 that are self custodial. I'm really happy to see what's 475 00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:24,350 going on in the space and I'm super hyped and excited and 476 00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:26,150 yeah. That's awesome. 477 00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:28,230 Any final words fashion that you want to add there as well? 478 00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:32,470 Yes, and LIPA Wallet just came out and we're still looking for 479 00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:35,630 feedback. We set up a web page have LIPA 480 00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:39,670 Swiss where you can give feedback, go download it from 481 00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:41,870 the test flight in the Apple store. 482 00:25:41,910 --> 00:25:43,790 The link is on our website as well. 483 00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:47,030 So try it out, use it, give us feedback. 484 00:25:47,030 --> 00:25:49,440 That would be awesome. All right. 485 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,040 Thanks so much, guys. It's been a pleasure talking to 486 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,360 you both. Patrick and Bashin, thank you so 487 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,400 much for coming on. For everyone that was listening 488 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,200 to the Bitcoin Magazine podcast, thank you so much for listening. 489 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,880 Make sure to go get your tickets to Bitcoin Amsterdam or Bitcoin 490 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,360 at 2024. You can use the code BM live to 491 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,360 get 10% off. You can also use the code BM 492 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:12,720 live inside the Bitcoin Magazine store to get 10% off items in 493 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,200 the store. Thank you so much guys for 494 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,720 listening and hopefully we'll talk to you guys again soon. 495 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,380 Peace. Over the last five years, the 496 00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:25,660 Bitcoin Conference has become the world's largest gathering of 497 00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:28,260 bitcoiners. 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