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Did Jeff? Thanks for joining us today.
Appreciate it. Yeah, no problem.
Good sit good to be here, Tess. Hey, we're just in another call.
About very, very excited for this conversation.
Jeff. It's, it was a, it was a lot of
fun seeing you down at Pacific Bitcoin week or so ago and
really love picking your brain about what you're doing, kind of
in the private Equity space on the Bitcoins.
I think a lot of people in the audience will have fun here in
about what you're doing and what kind of projects are happening
on layer 2 and Beyond on bitcoin.
So love to pick your brain on. All of that as this conversation
goes on. So I don't know if we want to
start just kind of with your general take on where we are
right now. Like you know, there's a lot of
crazy stuff happening whether it's ft x SV, F, you know,
digital assets grayscale. Everything going on everywhere,
just seems kind of crazy. It feels crazy out there.
Feels like a clown world. And so I'd love love it.
If we could get into just kind of what are your thoughts.
So, if, you know, from a from kind of the 50,000 foot view
with where we are, where the world is right now.
What do you think about Bitcoin right now?
Now, is it really dead like the headlines?
Say and why is, why isn't it? Why is it more happening with
SPF and everything going on? It seems like he's kind of just
lounging in the Bahamas and speaking at conferences right
now. So what's going on in this crazy
Crown World? Let's get your take on it, just
to start up. Just that one and it just comes
back is just a really simple premise.
And you know I've said this a million times then the natural
productivity that should clothes to all humans and as technology
progresses or we crate crate, we solve problems should reduce
prices. It's not because we live in a
system that controls those prices and has to make them up
to protect protect otherwise debt, that would collapse, which
the entire system. Bill time.
And that means you have to introduce Miss information and
money because all money is, is information.
And people are looking through that misinformation all around
the world and and, and leaning in to try to create more of what
they think. They want more money to try to
escape that system and it's just feeding back into that.
So the so the and many people in the Bitcoin, space know this
already. If you're self custody and in
Bitcoin you're just a you're just completely away from all of
that noise. As it's disintegrating and
getting worse and worse. And worse does have major
repercussions because it's the world we all live in right now
and is that transitions. But but all of the, I think, the
all of this is predictable out of what must happen in money.
So so why is it predictable like what about Fiat incentivizes
this kind of clown World behavior and what makes Bitcoin
different? What is bitcoin?
Incentivizes the whole Fiat experiment.
It's essentially comes down to we're going to transfer wealth
unnaturally. We're going to we're going to
steal the productive capacity of humans and transferred to some
people to, to pretend we can look after those other humans
better. That's ultimately what the
entire thing comes down to it. So you're stealing your that
transfer is theft and you're stealing it from some people to
others. You don't eat and you why?
We don't notice it. We don't notice it 2% theft or
1% theft, but but when it turns into 10 and 20% theft, we start
to notice it like somebody walking into your house and
stealing one percent of your stuff each year he might not Not
notice it being gone but all of a sudden you start noticing that
theft at the at a greater rate ultimately Jeff.
And a you know that many people on this call know this if it's
the entire system relies on something that that has to do
that to survive, it requires and all of the defense of that
system is really a defense of. I believe that we should make
debt cheaper or transfer more. To be able to function to be
able to run a productive Society.
The hardest thing to understand is Bitcoin is so that's the
world. We've always lived in and we've
we've typically gone to war to reset the in Bitcoin, as a
non-violent, transition to the other side, all people have to
do is move to the other side and spend more and more of the to
move into Bitcoin and spend more of the time there.
But we've never seen something like that, quiet, as humans
before. So that may end.
And so if there was a system that's before people, Well, if
they didn't understood what the Senate Bitcoin was, if there was
a system that was able to take that power out of human hands
forever. That would be, that would be
quite a remarkable achievement, but it, but it would also mean
that all of the people benefiting from that system
would probably try to fight that sort of that exact, that's
Innovation or that Discovery or invention, whatever you want to
call it. So, I think that's just where we
are, and we're in the now, they fight you stage.
How long do you think the in just four people in the
audience? So, so the they have the four
stages, right? Of accepting a new technology.
First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they
fight you and then you win. So, so to Jeff's point, he's
saying, we're at about stage 3, right now, then they fight you.
And this, this can be kind of a painful stage, for sure.
It's basically when the cultures clash and and things get
serious. What do you think, Jeff?
How long does this? Then they fight you phase.
Last. Is this just like a year.
A couple of years. Do you think this may go on for
decades? What's your read on it?
Well, it's hard to say that specifically if it's actually
why I spent so much time. So if you understand the
plumbing of both systems, you understand it, and that's what I
went through. I probably understood the
plumbing of the existing system more when I went through my book
and then and and and at the end of my book, I just left over the
opportunity of Bitcoin, but I was probably not as deep as I am
up to it. Certainly, I wasn't steep as I
am. Today on bitcoin is
understanding that it's literally Unstoppable and if you
understand that it's Unstoppable and it's just based on truth,
the question goes, why would you want to stop it?
If it's a better technology of money and is based on truth and
it produces, a better return for Emma did better Society for All
Humans. What would your advantage be in
stopping it and so but but how long is this going to play out?
It's going to be chaotic. It's going to Be really chaotic
monopolies. Don't die over Network effects.
Don't die overnight. They're they're, they're
persistent. And there's a lot of things that
are going to be thrown at this along the way.
But it doesn't, I kind of zoom out by zone out from all of that
because I'm not really in this for price.
In fact, if you measure, I've said this many times, but if you
measure actually, what's really happening with Bitcoins with a
lag, is that all prices will fall against Bitcoin forever,
It's not private bitcoin price. Going up, people that are
measuring Bitcoin price, going up or, or actually defaulting to
the Miss measurement of the currency that they're using.
I love it. What and then you should jump in
here after this but it's so one other question for you because
this is something I think about life life.
On a Bitcoin standard say say things happen sooner sooner than
later and we get on a Bitcoin standard.
Let's call it 10 years. Just to be fun.
I don't think it happens that fast, but maybe it does.
What happens to things like, investing?
What happens to, you know, private Equity, what happens to
investing in the stock market, and like bombs, new bonds, even
exist in or do they look completely different at that
point? What's your view of the world?
And if we were to go on to a Bitcoin standard, okay, we are
going to go on to bitcoin standard.
It's just a matter of time on which countries do it first and
such but but but fear and greed will still exist in any market
and let's use the FTX still and it's going to be way better this
or yield and yield offering products similar to what a bank
would do. If because of a fractional
Reserve System and at that, if you offered more yield, you
would get more people chasing Bank.
Then another bank would offer more yield and you and he would
change. You'd Chase up to a point where
we're the nothing would be backing it.
And the government would have to come in and save the day that
same thing happens in in crypto land because because they have
no counterparty risk, no Thunder.
Party risk on bitcoin and a free market.
That says. So if I create this other coin
and I say or time I leveraged Bitcoin and say I have it, I can
offer yield and If I offer more yield and somebody else, I'll
gain those people coming into my my ecosystem and it works until
it doesn't and then it unwinds to 0 because of the counterparty
risk and nobody's going to save it.
And so if you just said, fear and greed in all markets, we can
we can expect fear and greed to remain.
As part of human nature. We could, it's always been in
human nature, suspected, always will be.
And that means if Confined an advantage, they will find an
advantage. Now, let's use debt on that and
let's use what's happening because these are totally
opposite systems one system. We live in today means any dead.
I take over long-term, I pay back with cheaper dollars
tomorrow, so it Vantage meas to take take that if I'm on the
right side of that and especially if I have an implicit
guarantee by the government will bail me out.
Out because I'm too big to fail. Then I can keep on creating
larger and larger Monopoly Forever on that implicit
guarantee that somebody is going to be the taxpayers are going to
bail me out but it relies on, on my my value of my currency is
getting worthless worthless. So the debt and paying back and
cheaper dollars to more tomorrow Bitcoin.
Relies on exactly the opposite, the value of Bitcoin is going up
in relation to everything else. That means, if you took Dad,
let's say you take dead on on a Bitcoin standard, then then it
means your real interest rate on that Bitcoin standard is, is
going to be more expensive. And that means that you wouldn't
fund things that that you wouldn't.
Or if I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm using, I'm going to just
blow that money. Then I'm going to get burned.
And actually probably the counterparty is as well because
it come back to collect on the debt and due to be nothing
there. So in that what's happening
today in that system is that whole debt that we live in
today, is being repriced, buy Bitcoin, or being completely the
entire debt side is being repressed and Bitcoin in The
Loft. I'm not saying there won't be
any debt and for a while there be kind of fear, and greed old,
I've Drive markets, but there'd be way, less less because you
won't need it. Yeah, I actually agree with you.
I think I think that's the kind of The Logical conclusion is
just going to be, it's going to take the entire Fiat system that
we're so used to this credit based system and just flip it on
its head. Everything is gonna almost run,
run in the opposite direction. So be very interesting to see
how life works on a Bitcoin standard.
Hey Jeff. I have a, I have a few questions
and I some thoughts here but would love to hear your input.
So recently, I like the last six months has been, you know, just
this this kind of Never Ending Story of counterparty risk and
blow ups and And, you know, I'll put skated leverage counterparty
risk. Like we were just referring to,
you know, if like, you know, there's probably some listeners
on here that we say stuff like a Bitcoin standard or
hyperventilation, and they just nod their head and say, yeah, I
agree and there's other listeners that are saying, you
know, these guys are totally out of their mind crazy brainwashed.
And so to kind of bridge the gap, a little bit, you know,
with Bitcoin trading at seven, and sixteen thousand seventy
percent from the highs. I mean, it's obviously done this
before, but you know, many were saying, this is a macro asset
this Is different, you know, the whole the whole nine yards.
How is Bitcoin as this? This absolutely scarce asset
with a credible monetary policy. How does it escape from say the
same the same fate of gold? You know, another monetary
Bearer asset that got kind of co-opted from the state what
differentiates that from gold and maybe what what looks
different this next time around, you know, next cycle or you
know, a few years from now, kind of coming out of this whole,
this whole mess with all these, all these Counterparties going
under. Yeah, two things, the self
custody of Bitcoin different differentiated cells, and they,
and that Network velocity of the lightning becoming peer-to-peer.
It's forming the base layer of the period of a peer-to-peer
internet with money inside of that Network.
And so what what and you know this but for the other people,
if you just looked at gold and something pegged to gold and
then Bank creating a lending instrument on top of gold.
You could just say through human nature.
Then then banks that Leverage, The Gold more would win, more of
the share until a collapse of the system which they which not
every people would go back to try to get their gold and it
wouldn't be there. And so and every bank would
compete in that same sense and then over time because people
would go and try to get their gold and it wouldn't be, their
governments would come in and say we're going to sit on top of
that. We're going to protect you from
the bank. And it would happen at the
government level and what you see throughout Society you see
ever increasing debt running on top of that system forever with
no cleansing of the system. And when I say, cleansing of the
system until a war that resets holes, whole system in the
rulers, essentially, the winners of the war, reset, the system.
And but, but that's what leads to these long-term debt cycles
and Bitcoin because of the K. What you see Joe Woods Just
Happening. Nobody saves you.
If you have your Bitcoin on one of these exchanges and that and
you've been collecting a coupon of nine percent based on paper
Bitcoin, when it goes the other way, it's gone.
There's there it was never there, it's gone.
So that's that's kind of probably the first line of
defense. The free market just wipes you
out instead of moving it, higher on it on, on a government stack
that says we're going to socialize the losses.
Protect the people in control who created the problem in the
first place. And then this and and and then
then, so if you just play that out then I think if you just
play that first layer Bitcoin Bitcoin out, then you'd say,
would people create a whole bunch of Leverage on it and
would fear and greed overtime, wipe them out but we would
emerge with a similar type of similar.
Of financial industry that we have today on top of that coin
with stuff pegged to bitcoin. But then wiping out value in
these in these big Cycles. Yes, that's what it would look
like. But when you but when you
combine the lightning or kind of when you when you think about
Bitcoin and layers and lightning becomes a peer-to-peer
transaction Network on top of that, that means the need for
that debt in the first place, just move goes away.
Thanks for the answer. Yeah, I agree there.
I think part of the thing it's been kind of frustrating but
also, you know, it would it would be hilarious and who would
if it wasn't so sad and tragic is, you know, the reality that
we have this and non-sovereign money that you can verify trip
like, in a very trivial manner with your own node.
That, you know, it's like takes almost you can you can I mean
how you can do it on your phone at this point, with with that,
with how capable the new new smartphones are and how much
Storage these things have and to see, you know, all these
blow-ups we're like three arrows Capital had a there a um on a
spread half on a PDF and you know FTX had an Excel sheet with
an API backdoor for their auditor and like all this stuff
and it's like well and even like grayscale and I don't think
necessarily that these guys are Bad actors.
I don't think that actually, I don't.
But, you know, it's very trivial to Simply sign with your keys
and say, hey, we have the Bitcoin, or we don't mind if it
wasn't me, say I closed and trust and the Example of gray
scale. You can just pull your funds
with lightning. You can pull your funds at 5
seconds with an entree and transaction.
They would take you know ten ten minutes 20 minutes and so all
these blow-ups happening you know and like he's Bank runs on
these. You know kind of fractional
Reserve bucket shops it's just it's kind of amazing that
people, you know, just took this.
You know, there's really really big idea for a casino and then
obviously this speculation speculation native to bitcoin
like there's no doubt about that and keep calling with So when
you when you talk about these other fractional reserves to FTX
or anything else, it's exactly how the existing Financial
system works exactly. But the existing Financial
system that we trust in is for orders of magnitude bigger.
It's ten thousand times bigger than Bitcoin and Bitcoin and we
measure our life through that system.
So when it manipulates money, when it's social when it, when
it essentially, socializes the losses and transfers the winds
To, to the centralized power of that system, we don't notice it
because but it's what's happening today and if you just
if you just play that forward, If the Fed continues to tighten
and and what you're saying in China is actually a, I think a
result of the tightening that they're trying to do.
This is all connected. If the Fed is, If the Fed
continues to tighten the actual cascading spiral that you're
going to see on the entire Financial system.
Except for Bitcoin is going to melt mines, but but they don't
see it because of that lag effect and that in that in that,
in the system, they're living in is forwarders magnitude.
So they're measuring Bitcoin by that system without realizing
the risk inherent in, that system, the entire system only
only exists on a belief that somebody's going to come in and
save the day by socializing losses.
Yeah, it's like it's like the example is, you know, once you
once we kind of realized the like a balance sheet leak or,
you know, just their positioning like that FTX was was a
collateralized against their ftt tokens with no natural buyers.
It's like imagine if the fed or you know some some omnipotent
power came in was like, all right we'll buy all your FTP
tokens for you but continue working.
Well by this with the funny money and socialize the losses.
It's like. That sounds ridiculous, right?
Like obviously the Or anyone else went by ftt tokens but like
what happened in 08 09 like what was tarp right?
Like they were buying garbage debt Securities and no one else
wanted to recapitalize system and like, what happened?
I'm sorry for what happened in 2020, what's happening and stir
and and then people don't realize that the house that
they're measuring that's gone up.
In value is is gone down in real value against and Bitcoin.
And that's why because it's just me, it's manipulated currency
that you has to keep Upon creating that result, Jeff.
I mean do you want to talk at all about what you're doing with
like, ego death? I don't know if you're like
permitted to talk about that or like some of the stuff you're
seeing on Lightning, we can go really anywhere you want with
this with this combo, but I mean we've talked a lot over the last
month or so or it really 6 months about the, the crypto
contagion counterparty spiral, if we want to continue to
tripping on that. I think we're totally down.
But is there anything else? That's kind of been been peeking
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Maybe many people read it already but I wrote a piece
called finding signal in a noisy world.
It's on medium, bunch of people have translated it says, well,
if anyone on the call hasn't read it they should and it's
just what the world would look like in in if the base of our
world just that for my money was just information.
What it would look like if that missing for, if that information
was being manipulated, we would all be looking through that same
misinformation compared to, what's happening a bit in
Bitcoin is an alternative system that had to be outside of that
system and Untouchable by that system, not that you wouldn't
expect not that you wouldn't expect every single attack
Vector on that new system. Cuz because that system would
be. So it would take so much power
from the people who controlled power today.
You would have to expect everything against that system.
So you really have to understand that system that is its its
core. Why it was outside, why it was
decentralized, why it was Secure, why it was unhackable
Untouchable from the existing system and so but what would the
world look like? And then as I started for me and
this is probably if you touch a little bit on ego death Where
would I want to spend my time? But I want to spend my time in
the system without which we want to spend most of my time trying
to accumulate enough Capital inside a system whereby, every
single thing I did try and give to to create enough Capital
inside that system made our world worse for all people in
the system, or would I move more of my time and resources to the
new system that I wanted to see. And so the start of The start of
ego death Capital but it's not just me.
It's a lot of people in and and Bitcoin another because Bitcoin
only VC's is really an idea where that focuses on.
I do have I do have say, where I spend my time I control, where I
spend my time, I can spend it with the best entrepreneurs
building, the new peer-to-peer internet, that will support
forum. The backbone of society society
and it'll move us from the system.
We live in now with greater and greater insecurity to a new
system based on truth, hope abundance.
So and then now when you're in that new system, how you're
spending your time with all of those people, but probably many
on this call, you Dylan for sure.
Jeff for sure. We're spending time with a whole
bunch of people that have a different view of the world.
It's based on, it's based on truth.
You build incredible connections and and I can't believe I get to
be able to play in this new world in getting to see all of
these entrepreneurs building its early building in this ecosystem
that are going to create incredible value for society.
I like, it's like I can't believe I get to the privilege
of doing that. Will every entrepreneur be
successful? No, will every business be
successful. No.
But by doing, Even saving moving there, they're going to just
like when and I remember the first day on the beginning of
the internet or kind of 99 and internet company to go just
balls, got funded for I think it was 25 million dollars on a
napkin and and it's a bad business idea because it was
taking advantage of whole bunch of the hype cycle the internet.
But it didn't change the internet.
It all of these ideas are they? Internet stronger and stronger,
and stronger and we use the value created on top of it.
That's reforming that whole value system is going to be
reimagined on top of that coin. Stephanie, I think I like, most
of these questions may already know your answer, but, and I
don't even know if you want to go down this route but what do
you say to the to the, you know, inquiring investor or friend or
someone that comes up to you? And says, you know, Jeff I get
your passion about Bitcoins. But what about crypto?
What about etherium, what about, you know, II can't borrow
against my Bitcoin on chain. I can't swap, you know, assets.
I can't do all these really cool things is, you know, I want, I
want something that's. It's not a Our client.
How do you, how do you answer that to someone that may not be
in the, in the, you know, weeds with a lot of the technical?
You know, how that's why I wrote for finding signal in a noisy
world because it would give a reference point.
Now, there's lots of great work in this.
If people want to do this, do the work but it would, I wrote
that piece because it would give a reference point.
The people could come back to on on why at a first principles
level and what and why. Why if you were measuring this
as if you were measuring this This instead of a protocol if
you were measuring it as a product that and and Bitcoin.
The layer, one of the protocol was based on decentralization
and security and then by de facto, it couldn't have
scalability built into it. It would leave an opening
especially in a world that was manipulating money.
It would leave a hole opening to a whole bunch of other kind of
and I don't accept a con artist. As there's a whole bunch of
entrepreneurs and in in the crypto space that actually
believe in what they're doing. They're just built on top of
foundations that they've built on top of quicksand that have to
centralize or B or B and secure. And if you have D Phi, D,
centralized decentralized Finance on top of a centralized
blockchain that make any sense to anybody or decentralized
stable coin, you know? Yeah, yeah.
So it did These don't make sense if you just run the logic all
the way through. And the only thing that I've
seen that actually makes sense is Bitcoin and and I'm a
long-term investor. I think about where I'm going to
spend my time over a long period of time and and nothing else
passed that test. But to know to get there, I went
down to the sand and backup on every where would they be?
Is where where, where would this be attacked?
Would it look like and then? And then, but I do also
understand if Bitcoin because protocols Harden over time and,
and you can't build the next layer of the protocol, nor do
you know what's available on the next layer, the protocol until
it's there? So if you had a protocol
hardening over time, like Bitcoin becoming more
decentralized, more secure over time.
And it's sacrificed smart contracts, because that would
build bigger block size, and that would make a great
centralization. It sacrificed scalability and
sacrifice speed on on layer 1 or scalability on layer 1, For
decentralization and security then inside that will everybody
was well, that protocol was hardening and people created a
whole bunch of wealth fund on bitcoin.
It would be, it would create a massive opportunity in the
market to say, oh that's old Tech, we have something that's
new, that's way better without understanding the protocols
developed in layers. And so, what's happened is just
a total Natural Market function of product line.
Say no protocol one is decentralized and secure period.
It's it's immune from all, the viruses that come at it because
of that. And and then and then the next
layer opens up and that's what's happening with lightning today.
And next will air and you start to see greater functionality
coming in layers. Love it.
I guess I'll throw you one more question and then we'll turn it
back to Jeff or maybe someone from the audience.
If we get there and I Jeff, I know you're not much of a like
say a traitor and you're more of a long-term investor.
And, and really what this big, one thing I can tell, just from
reading your books. Your blog post talk to you in
person over Twitter is much more than just an investment with
financial upside. It's it's, you know, you're this
heavily involved because and I'm this heavily involved because I
believe it probably has the greatest opportunity.
We We have to, to change something with a technological
solution. But with that being said, you
mentioned the fed, the FED policy fed tightening.
We're going through it, you know, kind of on the backs of a
historic tightening cycle. Yeah.
Debt-to-gdp. All of these things are, you
know, from most metrics broadly, the worst ever been ever been
coming off of 10. You 10, 12 years of free money.
How how do you think this whole thing plays out?
And that's a really broad open question, but I think you You
start to see some people say, hey, like soft.
Landing hard Landing. Do you have any bias?
One way or another? He leaves it is chilies but it's
going to be an enormously hard hard Landing.
I think the best way just to frame it for four people that
they can see because they just lived through.
It is what happened in 2020 with the massive stimulus and
printing the money. And when you look at every
commentator, every Economist at the entire system, after the
entire news, everybody who's helped, don't worry about
inflation. There's going to be no
inflation. And then it took quite a while
till people say, it's inflation's going to be
transitory. And then it took along a lot
more that we have a real inflation problem from from that
point. And it's that's the lag time
that I'm talking about. So if the FED started tightening
and call it July and and we're just getting into it now, then
most of the damn that, it And even touched us yet his not,
it's not okay. And there weren't in there.
Likely goodness continue to tighten and I believe personally
that this is this is actually a China us tightening policy
rather than anything else. So I think they're going to
tighten for a longer and that means the damage the damage is
already baked in is going to blow people away and we haven't
seen most of it yet. We've seen the big beginning of
it. The the amount you just think
textures I would I would suggest or prediction that the deficit
next year the u.s. is going to be 3 trillion because they're
looking at tax receipts based on the based on the on the printed
money and record tax, receipts falling off a cliff and as all
and as their programs needed, as people move to unemployment and
such and such to be able to 22. Everyone with the program's I
think you're going to see a massive divide here.
So just lots of pain, lots of pain coming for the overall
Market. Okay, real Jeff.
Jeff. Before we lose this topic.
Can you can you go a little bit deeper into what you mean by you
think this is a China us tightening policy?
Like what do you mean by that? So so today, if and if China,
when trying to stop buying us bonds for effectively, you had
probably the simplest way to say, is you had vendor financing
and both parties were were winning out of that.
And China was winning by low labor rate.
Andre, and and, and, and exports.
And, and keeping interest rates down by funding the US,
government's need to spend and high labor rights.
And so so that was just washing flushing currency around the
world and it was recirculate. And then I think it was 2015 and
a 2014, China stopped buying us bonds and started thinking okay
well we're going to do this game.
Ourselves similar Belgian Road would be a function of that.
So You have effectively a currency regime that and the
u.s. that has high labor rate and needing needing all of the
materials and everything that makes up the economy.
Being outsourced to countries all around the world with low
labor rates. And now you have a geopolitical
problem and even the militant military industrial complex, how
do you the chips that go into? To your interior military
injectors, or how do you run that?
When most of those Supply chains are Global and you have China?
China, moving into a dominant power.
That's this in a geopolitical risk to the US with, with those,
with all those components and so, so that tightening the, I
think the u.s. is going through right now is, is is either you
keep on loosening and you Empower China to keep that game
going. And the Further and further down
that road, what people might have noticed a couple three
weeks ago. Four weeks ago is cutting off,
the chip is essentially saying to China.
If, in chip manufacturing, if you're a US citizen there, we're
going to cut off your uses cents US.
Citizenship, if you remain, there is really a threat to to
China's, to try to China's dominance.
And the more important threat is is this dollar threat.
What? And so u.s. is using this this
to tie think, Titan China's debt collapses in that.
They Sparks a revolution in China, because there is no way
to pay back China's debt, and, and Nu mu, and you try to use
that currency, you try to you, try to kick the can down the
road. You're try to reset it under a
different regime. In fact, one of the different
regimes might be moving into Bitcoin in time I think that's
great hate and try to let me jump in with another one here
just because I'm chomping at the bit to ask this one, you know a
lot of I'll say otherwise intelligent macro economic
thinkers when they talk about Bitcoin specifically that
they'll kind of give it, you know, Kudos and say you know it
could possibly make a nice World Reserve asset.
Like one of many type things but they don't think it could become
the world Reserve currency and one of the reason is because
they say economic growth isn't possible without To a currency
that expands like the US dollar does love to get your take on
that and it maybe you can talk about how velocity is built into
Bitcoin itself. Yeah.
And I think that's actually the that comes from the from an idea
of gold as backing currencies and having to have an inflation
rate and really the for needing inflation rate in the credit
system to be able to drive velocity.
And I think that's where the velocity and Bitcoin in the
network. Has unlimited velocity, you can
trade as you know, Jeff you can trade unless Lightning Network,
I can pass my money anywhere in the world right now outside of
the existing system. And it could be back at MIT
could transfer 40 times in 10 minutes and be back at me.
So you don't have an inherent. You don't have this idea that
the only way to gain velocity is by increasing debt and pushing
more debt. So people spend more, which is
exactly inverse of what the so it's the way the system.
System and that misallocation of capital eventually actually
destroys velocity because per destroys economies because of
the mislabeled location of capital and Bitcoin operates.
Exactly opposite to that where the velocity we can trade with
anybody anywhere in the world, and money is really that that
that thing that we use to trade. Then you could imagine faster
productivity on a Bitcoin standard but that productivity,
and this is where it gets complicated or hard to
understand from the existing system, where a lot of people
stuck in that existing system is they've never seen a system like
this, where that productivity would flow and lower prices to
the population. That's actually why Bitcoin if
when measured against everything else, will everything else will
fall in Bitcoin for Ever. And and one step up their world
requires to trade to trade all around the world.
The world route requires a neutral Reserve currency I love
that and that's kind of how I respond to people who, you know,
if they sort of look back with resentment and say that they're
too late to bitcoin, I many people are saying that now right
with this bear Market in these in these lower prices.
But you know what, I like to tell people is your honestly,
never too late to bitcoin. It's going to keep growing
forever, Michael Sailors, famous quote on that it's going up
forever. Laura and it truly is and that's
just sort of an amazing feature of Bitcoin.
And a feature of it being perfectly scarce is that it's
just going to Forever go up in value Being that everything
against the Bitcoin is going to be going down in midlife, will
get cheaper the longer we hold Bitcoin.
Go ahead. Yeah, no, no, I agree.
And I think they when I when I think about this asset I think
about or not. So when I think about what
Bitcoin is every single thing I've been talking about for
years years and years and years. The hypothesis is stronger today
than it was before. And and the price when measured
in u.s. dollars is down. Now, if you had that trade, if
it was a trade and the hypothesis was getting stronger
and stronger all the time without without a break in it.
Wouldn't that be the base best asymmetric trade on the right in
your life? The so when and I costly try to
invalidate that hypothesis, I look for it where I could be
wrong and I listen actively to to to others, or try to attack
that, but I still have not seen a reasonable attack of that
hypothesis. At least one that I see see is
credible. So, His is mad, Odell would say,
stay humble and stacks hats. Love it.
I don't have any real questions on the top of my mind.
Maybe you want to bring anyone up or Jeff?
I don't know if you have anything else, or sure?
Yeah, maybe it is we're bringing other people up Jeff.
Another, another question I had for you, you know you're doing
this this investing vehicle with ego death Capital which is
Awesome by the way. And I'm all about that too.
So kind of a practical nuts and bolt question.
Do you think that and from an investing standpoint?
Do you think that these investments in these kind of,
you know, Bitcoin related Oin infrastructure Venture Capital
players will actually outperformed Bitcoin over the
long run, or do you do this more as just to help support the
infrastructure itself? No, I think I think I think it's
it's something that could outperform Bitcoin over the
time. It's like asking if you're
investing in a normal world, could you?
Oh perform could yo, perform the currency or an interest rate in?
In this know, I certainly think you, you have to choose, you
have to Choose Wisely and you have to also realize in this is
This is this hard thing, even for me, get your head around,
you have to realize that by very nature that the companies that
are creating value and in Bitcoin will keep driving prices
down lower and lower for society, and we'll have to
continually to innovate. So, yes, they're going to create
actually going to create kind of more Bitcoin on their balance
sheets by doing so over time, but that won't protect protect
them from the free market and the free market will attack
those companies to and it means they're going to have to move to
the next thing and provide more value is that is prices are
coming down. So it looks a little different
than then our existing world where he would create a huge
Network Network Power Monopoly, and you would use existing the
existing Financial system to create a monopoly that you kind
of rent. You could rent seek forever.
It doesn't enter investing in this set in space.
Won't look like that. It look like free market.
Investing, but I absolutely think that you we can
outperform. I love it.
That's a great answer. And hey, let me let me shift
gears for a minute while we're waiting.
By the way, if anybody in the audience wants to come on up,
feel free. We have Jeff for about 13 more
minutes or so. So if you want to ask any
questions, a come on up. So let's switch gears a little
bit, Jeff you wrote a fantastic book.
That basically everybody knows. That's your very well known for
this book, called the price of Tomorrow is one of the greatest
books I've ever read. So thanks for writing that, by
the way for you. So, so we're moving.
Now into an age of we're seeing High inflation, right?
We're seeing kind of peak, I would say.
Pika centralization and we're moving more towards
decentralization which kind of acts as an inflationary Force I
think. Do you think that the forces
that we're seeing? Now these inflationary forces
that have popped up in the last couple of years?
Are they temporary and do you think that the effects of
Knology the deflationary effects of Technology will overpower
these in the long run? Just love to hear your thoughts
on that Jeff? That's a great question.
I get it. I get asked all the time and I
just kind of come back to First principles and just say this
just ask Anybody this if we, if we are both the labor in all the
things that we buy and the things we buy and we live in a
global Community where we're trying to find cheaper labor,
how can labor go up and the things we buy, one it come down.
We're the same person like everything we are the exact same
person. And so it's that connection that
we believe that all our houses can go up forever in our labor,
can go up forever, where it's Actually going down in real
terms because of inflation and on the other side of the other
side of the equation we're constantly looking for more
value Bitcoin. Connects that in a way that
nothing else could because because money money is
constantly being. If you could manipulate a money
and for your personal gain human history says you will, We Will
and Bitcoins outside of that system.
So what it does is everything that we create is going to fall,
Price and it's going to keep on falling in price and back to
your back to your back at least measured in Bitcoin and back to
that. Simple way I try to do that as
does technology reduced prices. Yes know, there's been some
people say, well, it doesn't TVs that doesn't computers and does
my phone, I get more value in my phone, but it doesn't
everywhere. And then I then say why, because
there's technology and energy, we More energy.
We do fracking today. Wait, there's more solar energy
why? And what what it turns out to is
some Industries are moving faster with technology and
they're overcoming that inflation, right?
But the only reason for inflation, the only reason on
the over a longer term time frame is because we allow
manipulation money. Otherwise prices would the
natural free market is to freshener period.
I love it. That's an awesome answer.
I'd love to keep going on that, but we got several people up
here. Now, for questions, Dallas, I
think you are first. I, what's going on, Dallas?
What's going on? Thank you guys for having me.
I'm sorry, I missed the beginning of this.
I don't want to ask anything that's done, didn't but Jeff of
be curious. Like, you know, I know Dylan's a
good guy to ask about these kind of things as well.
But do you guys, do you think that there are like any massive
hurdles and or I don't know, let's just say points of
Leverage that the people who benefit the most from the
existing system sort of have the Flex, the kind of delay us from
getting to the promised land and like, if so, like, what are
those things? And how do you think, you know,
we can, we can be proactive and like combating, those things.
It's it's misinformation and misinformation manipulation and
coercion is really what they have.
And when you say they remember, we are there if if if you're in
the existing system racing hard to try to create more money or
taking Hannah from then you're actually A part of the system
that enables it makes it stronger and stronger, and
stronger. If you're marching against that
existing system on the left or right, you're actually making
that system stronger. So it went you could their whole
bunch of conspiracy theories and such on FTX.
And, and when you look at it on the face of it, that you have
this complete fraudster, speaking at events, is
celebrated by traditional media. And, and I understand totally
why That would that would look like a conspiracy theory but and
it might be but but everyone in the system trying to make enough
money to get out of the system, is a part of making that system
stronger. And and so that RIT that risk is
the risk. In the end is is just coercion.
It's just I lock you to because I have to remove your individual
rights and freedoms to get you to stay in a system that's based
on manipulation and coercion. And so I have to and and as I
centralized that system into a world government type of system
or a w FV F type of system, I have to remove more of your
rights to, to predict everything.
Everybody wants with my power that I gained from the
manipulation of money and living standards have to go down in
that world. I think you see Society, I think
you see Society Revolt long. Before it was here, I think you
see what your is happening in China right now long before that
happens but the question is do on bit on bitcoin.
Wait, when you realize all you have to do is is a nonviolent
protest and you walk to the other side.
You spend more of your time in that world.
You literally create the world. You want to see in that pit
world. I think that's what we're up
against. I love it.
That's great. By the way, quick shout out to
Kim clijsters in the audience. Big fan.
Hey out. See proud psycho.
You have a question or comment for Jeff.
You had never been a huge fan, Jeff.
So I just wanted to kind of chimed in and just look.
Thanks, yeah. See how much, you know, and I
suspect it's going to be happening to you more and more
when I've listened to. So, listen to you so much.
I feel like you're a friend, you're hearing my voice for the
first time. So I just wanted to again,
massive being and you were instrumental in me.
And conviction. I guess I would like to ask is,
I mean, in terms of being, like, in the Bitcoin Community, sort
of the designated adult. I don't know if anyone's use
that language about you, but that's the way it seems to me.
Always level-headed, always balanced, always reasons, I
guess my success rate in Orange pilling.
And this, I guess is more of like a striking.
A personal note here with your friends and family and stuff.
What is your orange going ratio? If you want to Riff on that.
I would love to hear it, but don't feel like you have to So
it's probably the same as all of you.
The it's now that I probably virtually all of my friends
eventually buy some and they start to understand it but it is
it's been it's been way more painful painful than I would
have thought it would be because it's it's when you living in the
new system you understand what that looks like.
You think why can't everybody else see this?
Why can't what these things they're saying are built on?
Built on built on quicksand. It just keeps on going to eat
like. Have you ever heard Turtles all
the way down? Well, why does that exist?
Because they're worth is on a turtle.
Why does the turtle and spin too?
Because there's Turtle under the throw.
And so these the things that are in their belief structure that
I've found the exact same thing. When I say meet people where
they are is because of a realization, most people when In
Europe when you're in Bitcoin is deep.
Is you are you think wow this is that the entire world built on a
lie and so much power. And any think that there's these
giant coordinated attacks by in everybody, in the existing
system is part of it? And when you're talking to most
people, you realize, if you say that you push them further away
from Bitcoin and well that might be true, I suspect it's more
just it's just more function of hints.
Santa's incentives, rule the world rule the world and we have
incentives that are based on theft and the world.
And hey I'll sell ten before we get to.
You will have you kind of end up with our last question Dylan.
I'm just wondering if you wouldn't mind jumping into real
quick. What you guys are working on us
when I put people in the audience and Dylan and damn rule
who's not here today, they do an incredible job with some called
Bitcoin magazine Pro, they're basically on The Cutting Edge of
just some fantastic analysis. Both kind of in the macro
markets as well as all across the Bitcoin space.
You know, talking about Bitcoin and crypto exchanges, Bitcoin
Miners and everything in between We need things to avoid, things
to be careful of and and, and then just about the great truths
of Bitcoin Dylan. What are you and Sam?
Working on this week. Anything exciting on your plate.
Yeah, we're just taking a look at some of the, some of the
latest stuff happening with miners, would kind of see
somewhat of a turnover and hash rate and also kind of doing it
in depth analysis. Post-mortem on the, the kind of
the crypto credit bubble. We've talked about it, a bunch
but, you know, going in and looking at at defy yields now,
defy, right decentralised finance that offer you one.
Sent yields while, you know, the short duration, treasuries are
for you for four and a half percent is certainly quite the
dichotomy from from 24 months ago.
So we're writing about that a little bit today and you know,
have a have a free version of so everyone should check it out.
Ya could recommend it more you guys for you if you're in the
audience and you're not subscribed, it's free.
We do have a paid thing too but the free subscription is
fantastic and you'll get some of the greatest education out
there, I think, on Bitcoin, in the Bitcoin space.
So just a little fill their last question or comment from El salt
and for Jeff. What's going on?
Yeah, thanks. I guess just want to sort of
chime and very quickly in the net ask, Jeff to questions.
The first one being Jeff. How do you see coin state,
adoption? Moving forward.
Specifically talking about sanctioned countries, right?
And I asked this somebody who comes from Venezuela and saw the
Venezuelan government leveraging Bitcoin mining, and creating
their own like centralized exchanges in the country.
He to wash some of their some of their money and revenues right
through Bitcoin excetera. So how yeah, I think that's
question. Number one, that question
probably just simply the technology that the technology
that empowers people typically starts from the bottom up from
the people most disadvantaged from a from an existing set of
from the existing Monopoly. And just if you look at Bitcoin
through that, through that lens, which I think you're going to
see is is An awfully of money is going to be disrupted by by the
people that are furthest away from that first, people
individual people, and then some of the Nations that are hurt the
most from the Monopoly of money today, protecting the court.
So just think about the weather. U.s. does why inflation hasn't
gone up a long time ago? Is because what the US does is
it needs that periphery Africa, Africa, South America for cheap
Goods, to be able to keep inflation down it.
Needs. So, that wage deflation has to
existence elsewhere or in China for it to keep inflation down.
So that transfer is so, in other words to protect its core and
now that core is getting smaller and that's happening all around
the world and including disease, us protect Japan and Europe or
to let those fail to protect the core, that's what you're saying
today. Whereas the technology is
neutral and that technology is out, it produces better off.
Effect. Just like and you can't stop a
technology like this from being used by people that are farthest
away and that and every time every user of that whether it's
a country or an individual user is making that Network stronger
for all participants in that Network.
So I suspect eventually maybe before too long u.s. understands
that power and that and Embraces it but it doesn't matter.
It's going to happen anyways. I think I absolutely follow and
just for context for everybody in the audience it's Jeff is
absolutely right because like couple of years ago when before
the government's in Venezuela I started getting into Bitcoin
because they were essentially forced to losing access to the
global banking system, right? And Global Financial system was
your sanctioned. It was a goal that what it
called the gold and Bitcoin H in Venezuela so everybody mine
Bitcoin. To their microwave.
If your cousin was mining Bitcoin, you started doing the
same for you and your mom and everybody after you discovered,
after you got orange pill basically right.
But but once the government started getting its finger and
into Bitcoin, that's one the Crackdown started, right?
So military, confiscating mining machines, the government running
now, the biggest mining operations in the country me and
a couple of friends back in 2016.
We have to sell the exchange trading and John.
We were building for ourselves to the government whether we'd
like that are not right? And for peanuts.
So it's interesting to see how this authoritarian regimes
initially of their forced into the camp of having to support
it. And now what you see in
Minnesota is the government, trying to take that back, right?
So like trying to trying to find people if they're using
Financial pain, digital payments, right?
So like zel payments. It's banned in the country.
If you do that they close Your shop and stuff like that.
So yeah. I think an old ghost.
Yeah. And and and friend of you but if
you just keep on going where you went, that's why.
So you could, you could either centralize everything in very
few hands when the government control at through coercion and
force and your economy will suffer because the free market
is much more powerful and delivering value and higher
living standards or you could embrace it.
But what I just said there is really critical in, also a world
that's going to find Governments on different sides of that coin.
And so, what you need flexibility, and the one thing
that get Bitcoin also gives you as flexibility, you can, just if
you can remember 12 words, you can get on the plane anywhere in
the world and that flexibility to go wherever you want.
And there's going to be a lot of countries, they're going to want
you. Stay chess.
Love it. And it just a respect Jeff's
time. I think we should wrap it up
here, Jeff. If you could just give us a
final message here from where people can reach out to him and
Me, Maybe any projects that you're working on or anything.
I know a lot of people in the audience here are huge fans of
your work. So what are you working on and
where can people find you? So I would have said, just find
me on Twitter at Jeff Booth but if you look at the method like,
oh my God, the amount of chaos and Twitter these days.
I'd like the I can't read the tweets or so much spam the so
but Her is probably best or or ego death.
Capital for somebody wanted to find me on a you go to Catholic,
send me a note there. That's awesome.
Thanks so much Jeff for your time.
We really appreciate it. It's fun to have you as a friend
friend of our show. Dylan.
Thanks for coming up and Chris. Thanks for hosting.
So all the listeners thanks for hanging with us for this last
hour. Please check out Bitcoin
magazine Pro. The good work that Sam and
Dillon are doing there. And please also check out what
Jeff is doing both his book. If you haven't read the price of
tomorrow I couldn't recommend it more highly and check out what
he's doing at. You go deaf Capital to.
So thanks all you guys and we'll be back on Thursday with
American hot also. So don't miss out on that one.
Take it easy, everybody. Thanks guys.
Thanks everyone for joining us. Make sure to also get your
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