Welcome back, guys, and I'm excited to introduce Our Guest
for today, but I'll let P give him a proper introduction.
We made an exception for our guests, we usually require them
to come down to just one letter to come onto this show, but
we've given nvk. All three of his letters P.
Could you give him a proper introduction?
Yeah, absolutely man. I mean, He hardly needs an
introduction. Nvk has created.
I would say the most well-known Hardware device in the Bitcoin
space, he's created the cold card and many other products
around it. But one of the things that I
think is so interesting about and because approach is he is he
always chooses security and effectiveness of the tool over
the ux, he's an amazing job of combining them, but I'm really
excited today to talk about how he makes those decisions and the
thinking behind it. So, and BK welcome to the show
you are A huge part of the Bitcoin space get in here.
Hey, it's been a while, dude. I know.
Yeah. The the sweetest voice in the
Bitcoin space. So yeah.
Thanks, thanks for having me, guys.
This is this is I hope we can we have a good chat.
Yeah, I'm super excited. So yeah, I mean ndk what would
you what would you add to your story?
I didn't get him. Give the full spectrum of who
you are and what you're about. Do you want to do that for our
audience? Just that everybody knows how
fucking awesome. You are.
I mean, you know, I'm kind of irrelevant, you know, we have a
team of people and I was sort of because it was pre doxxed.
I end up just being the face of the company all the time, but we
are very tiny team, But Mighty and we've been, we've been
building hardware for Bitcoin for since I think maybe I think
our first Bitcoin project was 2011 and then and then I think
2012 was probably when we started like doing.
Hardware. We built the queen hsms back.
Then we built a block Explorer back then.
We did a lot of a lot of stuff. We may be many people if they've
been in the space for a while, they have had quite kites debit
cards. We used to have payment machines
and debit cards that function as an exchange as well.
You were all over the world for a while, 2014 was a little too
early for those. What else?
I mean, you know, we had that we had a web wall for a long time.
There was, there was the backend for many exchanges even bit Max
Way, way back then. Yeah.
We've been in this space for a while.
And the notably this day is everybody.
Everybody seems to to, to be really into the the opened.
I'm the block clock, the code card, our in FC cards are come
and pile. More of stuff.
We going to just, just like building stuff.
Did you just say bio morph? No no no, I'm fine more of
stuff. Okay.
I was gonna say what the fuck does that mean?
And I want one, you could get a Brazilian out of Brazil but you
can't get the accent. Tomorrow, I love it.
I love it. Yeah, man.
I mean I you know, I don't want to like blow too much smoke up
your ass, but I think you've gone through, you've been in the
space for a significant amount of time.
And as I referenced earlier to, I'd love to hear about sort of
how you and your team. Make the design decisions that
you do. Because what do you think it's
accurate to was I accurate when I said that you guys choose
security and kind of effectiveness of the tool over,
you know, like you X, whenever those two things are in
Conflict, it's the other, which is an unusual choice.
So I think Think, I think there is a few things that because
most most people who make products are not exposed to
Hardware development. They often times, you know, they
did it as a hobby with a kit that they take and so they have
to inherit the kids set of trade-offs.
Very, very few companies in this space.
Do the harder from scratch, right?
So that gives us a lot more room to to do the things the way we
want. So that's why products have tend
to have a certain way of looking and being that are different.
And your standard sort of consumer electronics.
And I think the main thing for us is we build products for
ourselves primarily, right? It's like, is this the thing I
want to use every day? That is that is the question we
ask ourselves and that's how we build the products, right?
And and the products are built to be truly utilitarian, but we
joke that they need to have a personality and in at least one
joke in them. So we don't ship something
unless there is a joke in them too.
That's just how we are. We are super Attila Terry and
sort of like we're not Gamers or sort of like you know, like
we're not like we're kind of weird people and but you know we
have us as a humor and their products have to have it so, you
know, like is it the shape of the opened I'm is it the ECC
calculator on cold card? You know, is it that the Satoshi
quotes on the block clock? Everything has to sort of like
respect that sort of framework that we have.
For things it's like, does it does it accomplish that not just
accomplished, does it thrive on that specific that specific
functionality that we intend the thing for right?
And you know, some people know that some of us are amateur
radio operators as well. So we like a lot of knobs and
buttons that translates into somehow products that we think
that we should expose as much function and options and
settings to the users, We don't through users like stupid
people. What we do do is we find the
ways to prevent ourselves and our users from making mistakes,
right? So, cold card is essentially the
only harder wallet that like, does a lot of checks in on, say
change outputs and a bunch of stuff, so that you can't just
easily get duped into something or you can't just easily make a
mistake. We have sort of like, sanity
checks and everything and and that's sort of like and that's a
security approach. Like, is this like very layered?
So there is security, making sure users, don't screw
something up even though they have a lot of options and
features we check also to make sure that, you know, addresses
are right and all that stuff, we make sure that the the menus
have an explanation of what is it, right?
And we don't try to hide Bitcoin from the users.
We want the users to understand what's going on.
Because see, you could take the approach.
Say, for example Ledger, right? You know, fantastic team, I know
Those guys, they care about what they do, but their approach is
sort of like, you know, hide everything right.
But then the problem is their users going to get a private
message saying, hey, send me your seed, I'm here to help you.
Right. And it don't know, the CD is
they don't understand what's going on.
So they go in, they send the seat, right?
So in every type of the way on how you set up your code card,
you can do it in like 30 seconds where you just plug it in.
And it generates a Then boom. You have a wallet right, just
like every other easy wallet out there or you know, you can you
can take it all the way to Foo-Foo on tinfoil cypherpunk
mode. Where, you know, you're checking
the firmware, you're rebuilding your checking the component, you
know, you're throwing dice, you're doing all this stuff,
right. The open Diamonds the same,
right? Like we don't want you to trust
us. So we ask you to identify oh in.
So use that file provably to generate the private key and
that's also very Very selfish to.
I just want to get kidnapped, right?
If I had a product that was tested on us, we would be a
point of capture and at that wouldn't be very safe to us,
right? So we try to build things in
this mindset. We're just being very pragmatic
to latarian and then try to create a product that we can
manufacture in the scale that we do, which is, which is not
small, but it's not like Sense on great.
I mean, we make products for bitcoiners.
And we're at the mercy of the Bitcoin Market size.
So we tried to sort of like, find this very, very fine
balance on, how can we do that? How can we deliver the most
amount of value right remaining a profitable company.
So we can build more stuff. And, and that truly influences
on how the products are designs themselves, right?
It's like finding quality components finding quality,
everything, you know the plastic is not just plastic is like bulk
are putting it. That's like clear it costs more
but you know, like it's just, you have to be that way.
Right. So yeah.
So like that that's sort of like the give and take in the whole
process, right? Like harder is much more than
just sort of like putting together some software into a
chip. It's like how do you design
everything and everything fits and everything is a function of
each other in both complexity and cost and that's the fun at
least? Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, oh, actually, one thing I do want to take a moment to do
is to define the terms we're using.
So can you maybe take us through what an open?
I'm is and how that is different from a hardware wallet and then
kind of wondered what a hardware while it is why it's important,
sure, in any order you want. Yeah.
So okay, so opened, I'm is essentially a physical Bitcoin
Right. Traditionally back in the day
the only way to give somebody Bitcoin without them having a
wallet was to print a paper wallet.
The problem with that is if I give your paper wallet, I can
take the money back because I know the private key.
So we spent years trying to figure out what can we do from,
like, metal, whatever. And then what opened I'm became
is this thing where neither party knows the private key.
Provably. So so then when you give it to
somebody else, you know that they cannot do a chargeback,
right? They cannot spend you.
So you wouldn't seal it and then you can spend the coins that are
in it or you pass it along to the next person in the in
person, right? So that's what opened.
I mean, is, it's like physical Bitcoin.
It's a bearer instrument, which is really novel, I mean, that it
is. And, and yeah, I mean, when you
say unseal it's literally have to like stand Stab a hole for
the the the board in order to unlock it and that was more
because of Personality we could have done with software, but it
wouldn't be a satisfying and a very original when you actually
had to break a piece of the PCB. I don't know.
I kind of love that though because it's again, it's it
makes the entire process physical.
So like you can literally look. Yeah.
You can look at an open time and be like, is there a hole through
this part of the device? You know?
And obviously you want to verify the address and everything that
separately plugging it into something, but I think that's,
it's, it's a cool idea. Yeah, that's what's up.
Scarred product that's coming out is is essentially the
evolution of opened I'm open I'm still going to exist but it's
like cheaper and it's going to be an FC and he has 10 slots,
you can have ten keys in it and you can have art and all that
good stuff, right? So so that's that's the fun on
that. Sort of category of products.
We make the bearer instruments, physical Bitcoin.
And so, this is the SATs card. Correct.
Yes. So, on the Sands card, is it
basically, there's ten slots and then once you like, you You, you
know, deposit funds into those addresses.
And then you have to like, unseal them.
And once you've unsealed one of those ten slots, it's like down
and you only got nine lives and you and will tell you that's
been unsealed and you rotate to the next one.
So they can reuse it ten times because there was room in the
chip. So we exposing that to the
users. Oh interesting.
Okay it's not limited to 10 it just rotates through I mean you
can use the 10 at the same time but yes, the idea is that you
can use more than once, right? So there's Billy a bit, last
E-Waste gotta go. I mean, as you mentioned, you
made a reference to it. I think the only thing that I
would have again, something like that is that you would be much
harder to shove something, like an incredi card form.
Factor into one's wrap them in order to like safely transported
across a border. Which, as I understand, it is
why the open time has those rounded edges?
I mean that was really made for gents F.
He was a very unhappy with the this square corners, Cherie
tested. It at many times before leaving,
that product feedback, I did not ask for products back.
So so yeah. So so then the car Is like that.
And we're going to have some fun cards that are sort of like
covert as well. One of them is looks like a
hotel Key and if you go to the address is like a hotel website,
that's so cool. We're going to have a lot of fun
of that stuff. I fucking love that gossip then.
Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say so, feel free to
continue on the thread that you were on or I was going to say,
can you describe for the audience, like, what a hardware
while it is and why it's important when we're talking
about Bitcoin? Yeah.
So so So harder wallets are essentially, a means for you, to
store a key sign, a transaction outside of a computer.
So, back in the day, everybody used to get robbed all the time,
right? We get computer hacked, or
accident or whatever and then harder wallets came about.
And then a lot of those issues started to fade because you're
essentially separating the, the, the signing and the key and the,
in the key storage from the Right?
Because computers are this extremely general purpose
devices that have a football field worth of attack surface,
right? Computers were not designed to
hold secrets. So say for example, you copy a
piece of text on your screen, every program on your computer,
can see that clipboard. Right.
So it's an absolute disaster of complexity.
Right, there is millions and millions and millions and
millions of lines of code running.
And like, you know, hundreds of thousands of processes running
the same time, very difficult. And even if you do, make your
computer secured, there's still like a ton of stuff even if the
most open source computer that you absolutely cannot open,
okay? Like it is a total pipe dream to
think you can make a computer secure.
Now, if you're an extremely advanced, You have a chance,
right? You can do some stuff to keep it
that way. But realistically speaking for
most people including people who are Advanced, you know, you
rather just offload all that to a device that purposely built
very narrow build for Bitcoin, right?
So, and harder wallets are actually Abby's no more.
They should have been called signing devices, which are made
a little website. For assigning devices.com
explains. Why?
So, So, a wallet is a piece of software that has Block Chain
data information. It has the larger, right?
So Bitcoin core electrum whatever.
So they go in the pick, your transaction, your UT EXO's,
right, and then they build a transaction now, if they have a
private key in them, they can sign it.
If they don't, then they send it to the harder wallet.
So hold card, made PS. T is partially sighted, Bitcoin
transaction standard like widely used now.
And it's essentially a fire that you take you to the harder
wallet, which is not connected to the internet is not connected
to anything. Right?
And and the harder wallet assigning device, all he does is
like calcium the screen. Hey, do you really want to send
decent amount of Bitcoin to this address?
And then you say yes or no and then what it does is it creates
a signature over that transaction.
Right? And then you can take it back to
the computer and send it out to the network to broadcast a
transaction. So it really is like just a
device to not shit where you eat.
It's great way to say that. I'm totally stealing that your
slogan should be don't shit where you eat.
Use a signing device. Yeah, I mean I think so we
talked about attack surface and you mentioned that it's you
know, trying to air gap, ones, computer is basically it's not
going to happen, right? It's not not.
Feasible. I also just want to acknowledge
like you have so many domains that just redirect a random
places. What is the one?
That's like don't try to air gap, your computer.
No it's I think it's air gap computer or computers.com.
I think, I love this track of the domains.
I love the CSS on that one. Yeah, so I mean, so you've got
this, this purpose-built device a assigning device that does one
thing and does one thing very well, she said it basically,
lets you verify that you actually want to make a
transaction. And then when you hit a button,
it, Generates the signed PS BT, which then can be rebroadcast to
the network by an external thing, that's right.
And talk to me about the, the design decisions that went into,
you know, what has changed over the years when we go from, cause
there's been four versions of the cold card so far.
And what's changed over the years.
What, what upgrades have been made?
Why were those important? Yeah, and why is the the newest
one? Kind of more secure than
previous ones. Yeah.
So so first June 1, Wasn't going to even have a case.
We just made it because I was not happy with the Hydraulics
that were in the market. And we wanted one for ourselves
that there was just that simple and the touch buttons on that
one. We're kind of problematic for
most people in Europe, somehow he was not doing well.
So then, and he was using the first first gen of that secure
element. And then version 2 had a better
secure element and clicky buttons.
A few other sort of improvements, you know, just
general sort of, that's why we call it MK, right?
So mark one Mark to Mark, 3 is just like incremental
improvements and then Mark tree, is it was a very big upgrade
again. Newer secure element.
That was the had some fixes, which was kind of cool and we
started supporting a lot more features as well, right?
So we speed up things a lot more security, Kalam our security
improvements on the on the Der a spin.
Ian what else? There was just a lot more sort
of improvements. Generally speaking that Mark for
was a huge upgrade so Mark for has a family up on the on the
main processor so it's like night and day.
We joke, that's infinite memory now because essentially now we
can sign any transaction size. The bottleneck would be the
Bitcoin network, not cold Kurt. So if you're a minor trying to
sign a bunch of small inputs, we can sign it.
It To secure elements so it's so marquetry is yeah.
So Mark 3 is and defeated right? Nobody ever.
So, Mark Mark. Shoot, sorry, Mark to Ledger
managed to spend enough money to get in, right?
And and it's not reproducible. That easy.
Anyways, very complicated, you need a million-dollar lab and it
may be you might screw up the sample Mark 3.
Nobody has to this date managed to provide us with proof that
they can extract the seed. And that's like we've some have
he heavy resources behind it Denmark for we are like Hey what
how could we make this extra stupid.
So we went to to secure elements and this new processor so it's
really cool. And the way we design card is
that we don't trust any of the chips.
They don't see each other, right?
So even if you found one chip, you cannot get the secret out
because the secret is going to be encrypted with a secret
that's on the other. So now you need one of each.
You need three of them. Wait, sorry, walk me through
that happen. How does that work?
Yes, so because secure elements are kind of like black boxes in
a way. We don't trust them, right?
Even though the ones we use, we try to find a dumbest most
secured chip that we could find. So there is no real software in
them. It's just, it's called fixed.
Action silicon. It means that the chip just does
the functions that are on the Silicon.
They don't have Farm where they don't have any of that stuff.
So it's a lot better to all out of it and all those things and a
lot less room for back doors and things, so we don't trust any of
them. So we make them have to use a
different chip for a shared secret.
So interesting, I got it so that if your device is off, nobody
can go o with their known backdoor say you're like, you
know, the NSA right? You go to the chip and say, Hey,
I want to use the back door that we put on you, you know, on your
design and add a backwards for food.
Yeah, no but now it's three. So a from different vendors, I
love it, I love it. So one thing, I mean, you know,
we've He spoke about on Club has previously and one of the
things, one of the points that you made is that even with all
these these, you know, significant security upgrades,
one should approach it or think about it, as if, if someone had
enough money and they had, you know, a super high-end lab that
they could eventually get into one of these devices.
Is that, is that still the kind of way that you would articulate
it. I mean, I think we arrived at a
point. Now, we called cards design that
I'm given in, Infinite resources, infinite times an
infinite samples. Anything is possible, Right?
But but what we do is we raise the cost of attack, we raise the
time of attack. And we raised the the failure of
attack, right? Because they only really have
one go at each chip. Because they can break the
sample. Yep.
There he is. Right.
So, so now because you have three is exponential failure
rate, So it's, you know, it really becomes a problem.
So let's go into even with this, you know, a super secure
Hardware device. One can still lose one's
Bitcoin, of course. So what are you what are the
most common ways that people tend to, you know, fuck this up
and basically lose access to their Bitcoin.
I think the main thing is, is that like to say is most people
will screw themselves out of their coins before somebody
takes them. From them.
So for example, you know people will have complex backups,
right. They're gonna, you know, put the
back up in a QR they're going to print it or they're going to
make some convoluted self-invented, encryption,
whatever, they're gonna do not rely on crept out.
Jesus know. So, what you should do is you
get a metal plate. We make a cheap one or go buy it
from somebody else and you put your 12 to 24 words there.
Okay. And and you are already ahead of
99% of the people because, you know, house fires do happen, you
know, is this 100% proof of house house?
Fire proof know, right? It's to a piece of metal that
could heat enough and something else could destroy it.
But but, you know, if you say, if you put it in your backyard
or your basement or whatever, right?
Like you've already increase your chances of survivability
much more. Right.
Another thing that you could do is have a passphrase, make sure
Oh no, did we lose you? I ain't saying, hey, we need you
too. I think we lost you for a second
off. Is there any way you can get to,
like, higher bandwidth, internet or is this?
There's no, I am on the remote on the internet and satellite
internet. All right.
Sounds good. Keep going on.
Yeah, those. So if it starts getting choppy,
let me know what turn off video, that helps Okay, and your audio
is still good. So even with that the yeah,
we'll keep going keep going. All right.
So yeah, go ahead are good and we go.
Yeah no so that's it. Like so like make sure you back
up back up in metal if you are concerned about single metal we
didn't invent a new set up called C decks or so that you
can split the seed safely. Now, rolling your own crypto,
not splitting the seed, literally in half So any idea
there is that the their operation is basically a
standard. So you can go.
Yeah. I mean, it's standard computer
program and you can do it by hand with a PDF.
So even if you have a solar flare event, the wipes, have the
Earth and you are in the on the unfortunate half.
You can still recover with using a PDF been paper.
So timeout. We're going to stop on this
topic because I'm so sick of this fun.
We list between the three of us. At least 10 different things
that quite frankly. Like if something were to happen
in all of the internet were to shut down.
Like there are 10 other, very vital things that we could very
quickly and easily assess. That would also be in just as
much trouble as Bitcoin and I'll even go.
So far as to say, like, all of your finances are fucked.
I don't give a shit. If you were a Bitcoin Maxi or a
Fiat Maxie or fucking Peter Schiff and all your gold, like
you're not going to do. Anything if the internet's down
with all that money. So I just wanted to chime in and
say that to your sense. Yeah.
So so the the solar flare event. I mean, when it's like for a
solar flare to be that strong, the amount of problems you're
going to have or ginormous. So all their planes are going to
fall all the probably the power grid has stopped because the
distribution is electronic and some will might still get a
little bit because maybe the box was properly, but you have to be
so, immense amount of power, let's just assume.
All this fail-safes fail. So water stops power stops, car
stops pacemaker. Stop internet stops.
Every everything that, you know, in your life that is like post
caveman stops. Like you can't even run a farm
anymore because it tractor will stop.
Unless you have an old tractor that's at least of your
concerns. Yeah.
Your toilet won't flush because it's going to back up because
the sewer is probably has pump. As well.
You're what like, no, you're watering Austin Bitcoin survives
because it's the other half of the planet will have a copy of
the blockchain. So now you just take a flight
from the other side to come. Pick you up, you take your seat
to the other side and you make it work fights.
Don't work. So, how are we getting there?
I VK not always the other half of the planet will still
survive. So it's only half the planet.
They got to I've got to wait for some flights from the other side
of the planet to come over here. Yes okay got it, got it, got it,
got it. If your amateur radio gear is
going to still work because it was powered off wild.
Yeah, I actually have like survival radio equipment that I
take when I go back country snowboarding's, this is good,
good to know, good to know that. That should be on that.
Definitely take everywhere I go in the world going forward back
so this is actually something like that but yeah, I do as a
breach of Like talking about obviously week, a, you have had
broadcast a Bitcoin transaction over ham radio, which is fucking
awesome. What is the current state of
using, like mesh networks to broadcast Bitcoin transactions?
There's a similar to renewable energy.
Totally fucked. It's a toy.
So don't see. This is the thing, right?
Amateur radio, whenever shit happens is the first thing that
comes back online the day. They Hams have nothing else to
do, but to go help people with their gear, it's how half of
them. Justify its existence.
So, it really is there. It's just, it's low bandwidth
and it's cumbersome, right? But, but it's like, full on full
recoverable. It's amazing.
It really is. And there's like, 50 different
molds and all kinds of stuff. You know, I can reach Japan from
over here and I'm very far away from there.
So, so, you know, all the stuff is doable is just how much pain.
Because it's, you know low bandwidth and cumbersome.
That's all Got it, got it. I want to hear your thoughts of
Shifting completely direction. We were talking about inflation
before you jumped in. We're talking about the the CPI
print today. As a can of Coke, what is the
experience that you're having around the prices of goods going
of? How is that affecting you?
I was things here. Are you can think of Canada is
essentially 30% worse than us. Generally speaking about
anything economic got it, you know.
So so just think about our dollar parity spread, right.
The difference that we have that's that's normally our
compounding issue, generally speaking.
We do, we are strong exporter of energy and resources, right?
So, even if the country is completely idiotic about not
exporting the oil in the proper volumes that he needs to, we
still export a lot of crap. So Canadian dollar still fairly
strong. That's why it can be a tiny.
It was it hundreds of the American economy 1000 for the
American economy, and still have a currency that's fairly strong.
But, you know, and you have strong rule of law and, you
know, things like except from Trudeau wants to put truckers in
jail but aside. For that, you know, it's still a
solid country, right? With solid people in solid
resources so it's he survives. It will always survive but you
know, food is more expensive, is a cold country so you have other
issues as well that come with that.
Yeah here I was surprised. Yeah sorry no no keep going on.
VK the the CPI pi and it was kind of don't know did you
didn't think Parker take? Okay.
There's right, just just go and say oh it's 6 or fight, who
cares? That is exactly what I was
saying before you too. Man.
I don't like the dollars already a construct, right?
Like it's very post modernist so might as well have the CPI
people's modernist as well, right?
Just just say that number me meeting to existence, you know,
just keep on saying the CPI is 5 or 4.
If you becomes 5 or 4, that's it.
I mean they're going to has to be a degree.
There's a degree of. Like I do agree with you.
Like they could just very well have just had like cpi's five,
everyone. Shut the fuck up, but the truth
is even 9.1. Reading is complete and utter
bullshit here in America because that's not like when I go fill
up, gas is when it was not nine percent inflation from when I
filled up last year, usually, on July 13th.
So they called that a six-star. No, it's because of external
effects or whatever. It's all put in something, they
blamed everything but themselves because a nice I said at the
very beginning of the episode, you have people grading
themselves and being asked to that and share with the rest of
the world. Hey, how was the work that you
did? That you self report on like
what is the incentive for them to turn around and say we messed
up or even we got it, right? There's no incentive either way.
So if we want to use peas, excuse me.
We want to use peas logic to like really understand why they
do what they do. Do is because there's a degree
of accountability that does exist through whether or not you
like them or not mainstream media asking these things.
Because the truth is people are upset over it.
So they're creating a lot of narratives and dialogues and
click baby titles that say all the price of gas is this save
money on your grocery trip by doing this or that.
So that the information or the idea that inflation is here is
in the Zeitgeist and it would be such a disconnect from Reality,
which mind you there is already this disconnect from reality,
from what these people in d.c. tell Americans and the rest of
the world with what's going on. There is that disconnect.
But it would be such a stark almost in the vein of the Comet
of let them eat cake from the French Revolution of.
It's not my problems. Like I don't care like give them
whatever they like. No that's for better or worse.
Technology has connected us in this way.
Way that if we want to hold these people accountable can.
But for whatever reason we just don't, yeah, I think it's an
illusion, you can't keep them accountable.
It always at Nancy, Pelosi is like half a billion dollars now,
net worth. I mean, there is no
accountability for the modern, you know, soft socialism state
that we did exist now, right? Is it, is it total and fuan
kleptocracy? And you know, at least like in
Canada media is foolish. Subsidized by the government and
you also have the state broadcaster so there is only one
narrative and and unfortunately and fortunately.
So the majority of the population don't live like in
the in the city Center's, right? It's almost just slightly less
than half. I think the Us distribution is
similar and, and people outside major.
Major city centers have a normal life and don't give a fuck about
any other shit that's going on. In the The world, you know, all
this stuff that like we all arguing Twitter or like this,
things are completely like irrelevant to most people living
their lives. And you know, I think he just
happens that a lot of us are just a little like hyper
connected in a way sort of like hyper aware of all the issues.
And and that creates sort of like this this cycles of like
Doom and Gloom which also sell a lot when it comes to Media.
Right. You know, there is always bad
shit happening in the world and there is always good shit
happening in the world. When when the markets are going
down, the only focus on the bad shit and when the markets are
going up, they don't really mention the good shit either.
They just don't focus on the bad shit as much.
So, like it's this weird thing where it's like there is very
little, good news, generally speaking about anything, because
nobody really cares about good news.
It's yours isn't cell. It is deeper than that.
It's just maybe just human trusted in things that are not
like sounding the alarm on something, right?
We just sort of like take it for granted but I think just like
social media the way that we live now is suitable, just
compounds. This natural ways that we are.
And if so, does this Bitcoin fix this or, yes.
Okay, good. I was at a CT fixes everything.
So I want to, I want to nvk invite you down to my mother's
basement with me and put on your For hat.
And I want to, I want to share a theory that I've frankly, I have
never been, I've never been disproven on this, in the came
up with this in 2014. So, in the eight years that I've
come up with this conclusion, I have yet to hear a counter that
suffice to say, made me change my mind, we in America live in a
very religious country. We like to think we have
separation of church and state. We do not, I believe, if I'm not
mistaken, Christianity is dumb. One religion in the world or
Catholicism, I always mix up the two, not really religious my bad
either way. There are four signs of the end
of the world as was taught to me by an ex-girlfriend from years
and years ago, the first being some sort of natural disaster.
Why do you think you hear about it different hurricane every
year? Why do you think you hear about
the tsunamis? That's the first of these four
things natural disaster. The second being some sort of
crazy disease as far back as I can remember, like, covid is
being covid, but do you think he was this your horse?
Bullshit new for her some bullshit.
But yeah, it's really going back to Egypt there.
But, but, but bear with me now, dude, when I was a kid, like mad
cow disease is a thing. I remember not eating a burger
for a while because they really OU mad cow disease.
Like, I think I was like, six. I don't really remember much.
I just remember, it was a theoretical.
Jacob will fuck you up swine. Flu was a thing when I was in
high school, like these weird diseases have always been
around. I always picked up by the media.
So again a little bit weird little bit fishy.
So that's number two. Number three, I believe.
Leave him. I was taking his man.
Fighting another, man. So like, that's why like you
always hear War cover that happens, literally every day
everywhere. That's the point.
The point I'm trying to make is all of this stuff is happening
all the time, but we get it reported to us.
Every single day is oh, it's like this is it.
This is the one. This is the end of the world and
they keep us interested in all of this information because they
gave us like the most doomsday scenarios and these religious
Fanatics. And Were programmed into buying
into this whole end-of-the-world.
This is sort of going to be the final markers of it.
Start to pick up on these Clues whether subconsciously or
intentionally and then they get tied into finding and getting
updated more on the latest disease.
Outbreak or the latest natural disaster here is an alternative
view of this for you. So religious people actually
were the people who fought against the most on on say
covid. How covid-19 Was handled
religious people look to each other to how they handle things.
It's almost like everyone has their cult and the stronger, the
religion, the harder, the cult bubble, right?
So they actually are lasting / - to outside influence of news in
my. Oh, that's interesting.
So you know, when you see how all this shit is is like really
sort of like becomes crazy. It really is like the more
atheistic sort of city dweller. That, that sort of Buys, in more
into the Doom and Gloom that it is, the people like I was
saying, like, in for accepting the countryside who don't give a
fuck about going on in the week. You know, part of the reason in
my view on, why sort of like the whole covid response?
Was this absolute insanity is because, you know, the
population, ask the politicians to handle it.
People were screaming at politicians, telling them to
close borders, to do this, to do that, to do mask to the you
know. It was the people and because
you have things like Twitter and Facebook, you can actually reach
the politicians publicly shamed them that factly in a big way.
So they respond by I think I feel like the same is true for
say for example, a money Printing and inflation generally
speaking, you know it's the population who wants to free
shit. The the dairy Socratic sort of
like ultra-wealthy, clasts, give a fuck either way, they're going
to be fine. So in their view is like sure,
gleave the believes, what they want, it's going to make my
assets, go up to, but it wouldn't make much of a
difference to begin with. So if they want, you know, free
credit to go by ten houses, even though they can't afford it,
sure give it to them. It's going to keep them from
killing me. So, you know, the people have a
lot more power than they think that they do and they do
exercise, the power is just it just happened to exercise this
power in a terrible Direction because of sort of like this
this compounding terrible incentives and Bitcoin fixes
that I was like bring it all the way back.
Bitcoin is a religion. Bitcoin is the call that I
thought that's the direction you were going to have no issues
with being a part of a cult. Nicole to, hey, great.
We were part of a cult now, wonderful.
Now we follow logic and reason and no, no, okay.
What is the most? What is the, most absurd thing
bitcoiners? Do that even for by your
standards? You're like, all right, this is
a bit too far, guys. I don't know, man to each their
own. I love that.
That that's the best answer. I think that's true.
We may have temporarily lost MBK but for me it's definitely
something ones balls. That's like a thing that the
Bitcoin Community seems is like, super important.
I guess it's really like sunlight but man As a huge
contingent it's wild and BK, you're at your video or your
audio is chappy, where you guys were?
We said to the to eat, their comment, was beautifully,
beautifully put but I I don't like beautiful.
I like click baby shit. So I'm going to keep poking it.
This are you gonna dye your hair blonde?
Like you read my mind bro. Damn yeah.
How do you fuck was that? How you feel about?
I don't want to say I don't want to directly antagonize him but
like fine on the narrative and the idea of to use their own.
It how do you feel about people who spend time and money both in
this space as well as other crypto Ventures I have this this
huge sort of like a Fight Within Myself about like I am a pro
Freedom person, right? Like I want people to be free to
do whatever they want if it is to scam or to create scams.
Ever right? And the market should settle.
Those things. It's hard to reconciliate that
on a daily life, right? Like it's like what do you call
out? What do you don't call out?
Why don't you just ignore? It's not my fucking problem,
right? It's I don't have a resolution
but that's sort of like, the, the constant, the constant,
like, inner a battle of like, you know, what do you engage
with what you do engage with? You know, in a way it's like, I
rather did Tyrion, guys get away with their bullshit security and
then have the state deal with them.
But I'm not going to deny that there's going to be a lot of
shutter for I'd have seen them like going to Jo to like you're
going to be drinking it steers I am.
I am human right? Like it's like but like you know
I prefer no regulation and I prefer you know like sort of
like this things being handled by the market including with
people calling Each other out, right?
Like, one way in which the market resolves that is people
screaming about how the other guys, the scammer to advise his
neighbor's, right? That he shouldn't do business
with him. You know, like vitalik was very
crafty on how he always sort of like, create this narratives
around bitcoiners like the Maxi thing was his invention because
he started his Ponzi and we're all calling it out.
So yeah, it's tricky. We're going to see a lot of
people. Quit Bitcoin all the time.
That's just how he Goes it's just that the money is just too
sweet into in the scam. Fi like what is money bro?
Like if you're chasing money and you're going to Avenues that
give you more Fiat or more shit coins like to me that's just a
side that you don't actually know what money really is but
that's just because I'm an arrogant piece of shit.
Who read safety and spoke one time years ago.
I mean, it's nice to have money, you know, like that there is
only so much, stoicism people are willing to have or do you
know, like I think like flaunting and sort of like,
going by Lambos pretty but like, you know, having nice things is
a nice thing. Yeah, I do think that there is a
tendency to, like moralize business decisions in the
Bitcoin community that I think is misplaced.
East. I think, you know, for me,
personally, and already has their own metric, it's about
like, you know, not causing harm to other people.
I think, when people start promoting things that are scams
that they, that other people are going to get, like totally
fucked over. That's really bad.
But there is this weird disconnect like in the Bitcoin
Community. It's like, you know, and I do it
as much as anyone like screaming at people who, you know, don't
follow the sort of Bitcoin. Only Max baucus.
Yeah, exactly. But at the same time it's like,
oh, Like somebody owns stocks, that's cool.
You know, like somebody's, like trading, like playing the
market, like everybody's like, yeah, that's cool.
Do your thing. So there are all these.
There's a lot of contradictions in the Bitcoin community.
That get really old after a while.
But the thing is, there is no Community, right?
Like it's like, there is no dollar Community.
Yes, there is no gold, no, no. Bravo's proved that.
There is a dollar community. Fuck you would have really been
Jaco Island, right? Like it was just a hunting trip,
you know, if you ever have a chance real together, what is
it? Most dangerous game.
No, the the creature of Jekyll Island.
Fantastic McCrea. The creature from Jekyll Island.
That is an amazing book, the fucking tomb, but everyone
should read it. I'm not saying I disagree with
you pee, I just, I want to poke a hole in something that you
said or at least the way you presented it.
Because to me, if you ignoring everything you say, Add after
the when people start losing money and getting scammed.
A lot of the presentation of that sounded to me, no different
than the way ESG is fed to the masses.
This is for the benefit. This is for the best interest of
society for the environment, for whatever subset, whatever group
based on the Judgment of other people.
I just, I mean, you know, humans need thrust, right?
Is inherent Human Condition and it's a It is, it's like it's
essentially social efficiency, right?
Like you cannot function as a person in society, or in a
family without trust, right? You have different trust levels,
different for us circles, but we doubt it like, you don't go
sleep at night. Your eyes open in case your wife
stabs, you, because she was mad at you earlier today because
he's big for yourself. I / something like.
So you have trust, right? Like you need, trust you need
credit. You need, there's many things
you need, right? To sort of to create stuff and
in to live your life but like the issue is when sort of like
you have essentially this scam artist, right?
Like for example the CEO of cells is I mean like you look at
like how like they were selling their stuff.
Yeah literally describes a Ponzi.
He's like there's that interview is like safe and I think
somebody else and tone you guys like you know we could pay
amazing yields look. We take the Deposits from
person. A and we give it to person B.
Oh God. I know I like that's a literal
Ponzi. It's so fucking bad.
I could talk about that, you know?
But the problem is like you can't save everybody right?
Like and and people people were screaming about Celsius forever.
You know, some people are looking for easy money, either
because of greed or because they're just, unfortunately
uneducated, you know? Like a hopefully people learned
a lesson but like people clearly didn't because I think, We're
still depositing into Celsius to try to, so I I went into one of
the like those rooms that are like, you know, sell cscope
rooms and I actually was a guy was I came in like all right,
I'm gonna take some stuff when it's not some like fiery tweets
about how. Like and I ended up just being
like this is so sad. I just left.
I was like Jesus. Like these are like real people.
Like it's so depressing but here's what I want to do that.
Lets just the way from Max's. It's too fucking sad and
depressing. I want to talk.
I want to talk more about want to choose violence and BK.
What are some things that That have happened recently that have
gotten you very like, irritated explore, actually excited.
It could be positive 2. What's got you excited or
Furious in the Bitcoin space right now?
And we haven't yet talked about But their technological new.
I mean it appear markets like like normally bear markets are a
lot of fun traditionally, you know, like you have a sacrifice,
you'll have a Blood Moon Rises, you know, you have like, you
know, people sort of more focus on building and this this bear
Market has been super cringe. It's super cringe and and sort
of that that's kind of like annoying and so, you know, so we
chose violence, we are like, you know, fuck all the shit we're
just going to go build. So we're building a bunch of
stuff. And and trying to sort of like
focus on that. Yeah.
I mean, you know. Yeah, it's just like, you know,
there is a lot of like bad faith players that came into the space
as well you know like cold Moochers and other other things
like that. That's sort of like, you know,
it's a bit of a, it's like, but but your point is a tale as old
as time. It happens every cycle.
It happens. Even outside of Bitcoin is just
a constant. Well, that's yeah.
That's that's the cycle, right? And and you know reality is
right like Bitcoin was a cozy thing.
The last bear Market is a cozy tight knee, you know, like
smaller space you have you know like this different sort of like
types of bitcoiners that do their thing but you know, this
last cycle became very mainstream, right?
So you're going to start having a lot of normies coming in.
And did that whole commercial, the Super Bowl ad.
There you go, educate people in that commercial and I think
that's just a path. I mean like Bitcoin is going to
grow much more and all this does nerdiness around the money.
All the our Maxi or talk Orthodoxy and all these things
are going to get much more water down.
And because that's how things grow, right?
They water down. You know the Internet Was the
Same BBS is were awesome. There was a certain way of being
on the internet and, you know, they know It became, you know,
like people sharing pictures of their meals on Facebook, right?
Like that's far from like, you know, gifts on bbs's, right.
Like so so yeah, I mean, it's just pay, you know, that's not
such a bad thing either, right? I mean, it's just more people.
Using the thing that is meant to be used, right?
Like there is no stick on the Bitcoin like protocol, right?
There's nothing there to says, what kind of meal you have to
have a religion have to have or anything, right?
If you read The so no lines of the code.
I see. Clearly only eat me sound your
testicles. I mean eventually everybody
arrives at that if they if they go the Bitcoin Road and then I'm
not kidding. That enlightened unfortunately I
will say there was a space is like I don't know if I can feel
like years ago now where I was messaging.
You like it bro. You gotta get in here.
You know, we're talking were talking cool shit and you were
like I'm so sorry. I'm busy.
And you sent me a picture of like your crossbow and you were
like I'm hunting moose that's a damn.
That is a flex extreme. My parents would never.
Let me have a crossbow but they would let me shoot guns that
were like, crossbows are too powerful, what the fuck, but
actually, but so I want to hear more like, what are, what are
you actually? What are you excited about in
the Bitcoin space? What new developments what
protocol improvements or projects or companies that are
out there are, do you think are actually interesting?
Yeah, so there's there's too much fucking going on in Bitcoin
right now. That's why we, you know, even
started that that The positive. Oh no, I'm losing you.
If you podcast because like I just needed a place to sort of
like find a put together, a list and going over.
What's new? And the hey can you try turning
off your camera? Okay, he got Jennifer video
there. Yeah, is the batter even your
image is pixelated, that is better.
Keep going, keep going. All right, so you're saying you
started the podcast. Yes.
So that I could keep track of projects and, and you know this
this week, like the the list is monumentally.
Huge. So, there is the Fed mint, which
is like a champion server thing so that he can have like, you
know, it's different. It's a different type of trust.
Yeah, let's talk about that. So, take us through some of
those things. Things.
So yeah, that and yeah I need to read more but it's essentially
just like like imagine like a little Network that has a
central entity that controls the the system, but but all the
transactions are private. Kind of like a side chain.
Let's put it this way. It's not really, but what else?
Oh God, I can actually open the list here.
Yeah, do it. I want to, I want to hear from
you like, Hang on. Let's see here.
Too cute. What's got you super excited in
the Bitcoin space? There you go.
Got it. Sorry guys.
Did you get that cut off there again?
Now you get your IQ gone. All right, so there's the new B
TC server version electron private server for 30, you go
from nunchuck, released a video. Now using tap signer, tap signer
is our new harder wallet. It's like a blind sign or NFC
card so you just stop and and you sign transaction in the
card. So that's, that's really cool.
Zoos have a new release Block Street.
Is really easy aggregated, signatures that are non non
interactive, just kind of nice. So that means you're going to be
able to do a kind of aggregated signature that you don't need to
have the devices all online at the same time essentially.
So that he you have multiple signatures between them.
Wait, what are the implications of that?
So, so far all the solutions that were around required
everybody to be on. Like, imagine kind of like a
multisig for example, right? Imagine if everybody I had to be
connected at the same time to do the multisig in a group.
That's both a security issue, right?
Physical security. Because now everybody is
essentially exposed, you know, when everybody is going to have
to be signing and then it creates like technical issues,
right? Because you have to have the
connection between all of the devices together the same time.
So this solution essentially removes, the need to be to be
interactive. So like he's just like each
party does their thing once. I don't know, if it's in order
yet to have it. Read the paper It essentially
streamlines that and aggregate is signatures that, these are
semi aggregated signatures they help with privacy because he
could put a bunch of signatures together.
So it looks like one also have not read enough there to know
too that what extent they go in that direction because it's semi
aggregated. I want to know which part to see
me. Yeah.
So like, you know, but this is these are all sort of like very
cool, a sort of your things. Apparently, silent payments,
which I have not read much about it is also 0 Out.
And oh, what's his name? Oh gbtc He released a yeah.
Marshall he released a little board for you to overclock your
how I saw that. I'm so excited.
Oh my God. I mean, did the list is, is
insane here. So here's one thing that we
talked about, we've talked about the past around snore and
Taproot the recent, you know, upgrade to the Bitcoin protocol.
So we talked about the idea of threshold signatures.
So you know, multisig being the idea that basically with multi
segment, we're going to talk about a little bit with Craig
raw. You know, we Had you have like
two of three signing devices that have to basically sign a
transaction in order for you know it to be valid and mind
will block right. But with threshold signatures
the analogy that you always used was like you can have less
secure devices that basically contribute.
Let's say less to the actual transaction.
It's a terrible analogy. But where are we on threshold
signatures? Okay.
So think about it this way, as standard Bitcoin signature is a
like a Is essentially like a signature in which you're
compounding each signature. But think about it this way, you
have a piece of cord and you make three knots on it.
So those are the three signatures and then you toss it
to the network and everybody in the network can see the three
signatures on it. Right.
Everybody knows what's going on. We trashed Show signature is is
more like a pie? So from the outside looks just
like a pie, a covered pot, okay? I'm I am deciding there and
being like, it's a high end of story.
Yeah, but then inside of the pie you define the threshold is it
just a quarter of the pie? Is it a fifth of the pie and
each part of the, the little bits of pie inside can be
defined by you as well. So how much a pie piece is sized
So yeah, so you have essentially like a lot more definition of
like the size, the weight of each piece, right?
And how much of the total do you need?
And from the outside because it's a linear signature.
Now from the outside, it looks like a single signature.
So you don't know that there were 10 signers or one signer.
So the idea is that you could have as I understand you could
have less secure devices like you could you could use a phone
as a contributor to threshold signature scheme and you would
just give it a smaller slice of that pie.
Is that that's right. Yeah it's a good thing because
if somebody gets the little piece doesn't matter.
Yeah. And there's like, you know, if
the pie I've has to add up to 100%, then you know, you'd have,
is it accurate to say that you have multiple devices that in
some would be more than that hundred percent but essentially
your 300. Yeah, you exactly would that
matter, right? Like but why 100%, why don't you
just make it? Fifty percent of the pie?
It's all you need for making a signature, right?
So it's for making a valid transaction.
So then you can have a phone. That's just like a third and
then you can have another device.
That's let's say you have a cold car doing 2/3 and a phone that
does 1/3 So, where are we with that?
When there is, there is no, that's called mu Sig.
Instead of multi sick and most Sig.
I don't think there is a speck yet.
Let's put it this way for most back yet.
It's very complicated cryptography.
And start to put you on the spot.
But can you what is the difference between music and
frost? I thought, oh, I don't, I can't
remember. A frost is not at the top of my
head. Got it.
Our, where should we go from here?
What else are you? Have you been thinking a lot
about in the Bitcoin space? What's come up across your desk
that? Has caught your your fancy.
I like simple things. So I think that the nunchuck
wallet that Hugo is making is a big deal because the allows for,
if you're old enough into space, you would remember while it
called copay Did then got bought by bitpay and then it was
destroyed. It's essentially collaborative
multisig that does not have a centralized entity, right?
I mean, you might still use nunchucks servers just a way of
doing the message routing between them but is encryption
to it's easy to be encrypted and so end-to-end encrypted and and
I think eventually you'll probably be able to run your own
server kind of thing between the parties, right?
Having multi-party multisig, that's like very easy with.
Like just a tapping NFC card is is super powerful, especially
for small businesses, and sort of like this centralized entity
is very like, say for my company.
We don't have an office. Right?
I'd be back by magazine, doesn't have an office if I remember
right either, right. You guys have a look at these,
you know, nobody's there right now.
The team is is huge and Me, Kate.
Let's just, let's keep pushing this narrative though, because
they're keeps being this. Godforsaken reason to force
people to show up to the physical office that we have.
And I'm not a fan of this, in any way, shape, or form, right?
What else we make? Can you, can you define that you
just use a term that I want elaborative multisig?
Yes, yeah. Can you can you talk about km
multisig? What that means and how that is
different from traditional multisig.
Yeah. So like technically speaking is
the same but in practice, the difference is that different
people have different keys. So, in normal, multisig, just
for yourself. You are the We'll have all the
keys, right? So you have a Kia home, you have
a key in a different country and you have a key.
I don't know like under the ocean somewhere, right?
And then if somebody tries to attack you at home you don't
have all the keys, there's nothing you can do right?
But that's just you collaborative.
Multisig just means multi-party multisig, right?
So it means that, you know, I have a Kiki, you have a key P,
have a key. If we want to send a
transaction, I send you guys a message, encrypted in the zap
saying hey I want to send, you know, $10 to this To this dude
who has a funny meme, right? And then one of you have to
approve it, I mean saying that is the two out of three kind of
wallet, right? But like making that move is not
easy, right? And then and then there is also
like the type that is like Casa or and chain, do where they're
essentially just one of the keys but you are still capable of
transacting without them. It's just it's just different
variations of who has control of keys.
I it's a very very needed thing in business.
Like you have to have an operational all That you have
more than one person sign and, you know, it's super useful.
Make sense. Make sense.
Yeah. What other projects are?
Like super cool right now? Because I got a, I got a
different question for you, if you entertain me.
So, you two are far, far more technically inclined in advance
than myself. And the truth is, as we continue
to onboard more and more people were more likely to get more
people who are like me and less and less people like you and
pee. I'm a big believer in the 80/20
principle that of 100. Users, 80% will not really
understand or know what they're doing about. 1% will understand
the nuances. I am deathly afraid of opening
my called card, not really, but like it's it's been set aside
for a period where I have six hours that no one is going to
bother me. So I can actually like really do
this properly at what point are these trade-offs, something that
we're going to have to really assess to further on board the
masses. And I'm not saying this in a way
to say, like, your coal carts up, cool car.
It is in my opinion, the best option out there for Cold
Storage but I also worry that it can do.
I totally get it so yeah, no, no.
It's a very fair representation. So so in my view as we move from
a few hundred million people using Bitcoin to a few billion
people, using Bitcoin first is you can't save the majority.
Right. Coin is not for everyone.
Bitcoin is available to everyone.
It's a very different, very, very different thing.
The majority of people will have Bitcoin in centralized entities,
right? Because you'll be easier, it
will be cheaper, and you come if insurance and you will have
other sets of trade-offs, right? Is it terrible?
Yes, absolutely right. Is it going to be, you know, a
lot of fraction reserved. Yes.
Right. Do.
Are we going to see a lot of them feeling?
Yes, but it's not going to go away, right?
It's just that's just the reality, right?
Like of of how things are you know the internet used to be a
lot more decentralized. Everybody is to run through her
email server and there you know, like IRC server and everything
and then even IRC became fully centralized.
There's like, two massive players and that's it, right?
And and IRC never actually further into where it was
supposed to go, which were as the Federated where did servers
would talk to each other, he failed that way.
So it's just because the friction Versus the risk versus
the game are just not there in value, right?
Like because, you know, reality is, you know, through Modern
History, the majority, the people don't lose their money at
the bank, right? Even though there are events,
there are, you could be the sucker that does, you know, in
most Western countries like people still have their money.
I got mine taken in Brazil but like it's Brazil.
So people will make different sets of trade-offs, in Brazil,
you know, and there is a reason The reason why I like people put
their money in in all this yield, stupid places where they
give you like, you know, a few percent on your Bitcoin because
it all you're getting a few percent of their Bitcoin.
And they're used to institutions not running away their money in
a lawful country, right? So, you know, so my point is a
lot of the Bitcoin will be centralized.
I don't think we can get away from that.
That's just reality. I mean, you look at the amount
of Bitcoins inside coinbase is huge, right?
It's only going to grow. So we should accept understand
that and trying to improve that and try to get more people away
from that. Now the other part is, how can
we make the people who do want to save themselves who are not
necessarily in the 20% rate, in the Pareto Principle there say
they are in the 70%, right? Or even the 60% we could we can
help them at least a part of their funds are so you know,
phone wallets are going to be huge, right?
So people are going to have their seat on a phone wallet.
The His phones are fully fully pound, right?
Anyone can can like at the airport they can copy and get
into your phone. They stick in a little machine
and they'll get your data out. They might not be able to do it
right there and then but they'll send it to a lab, they'll get it
out. So, so phones, you know, but
it's still an improvement right now.
He needs to be say law enforcement, that that is the
one who takes away from you is not just some dude on the
street, you know, and then you know what we're trying to do.
Now, the, with us with the top signer is, you know, can we make
a harder one? Wallet that sub 50 dollars so
that your phone wallet doesn't have the private keys or it has
just half of the multisig of the private keys.
So that further improves that and it's just a tap, there's
nothing else to do. There's no screening is cheap.
And you know, maybe the the Quorum is enough that if you
lose it it doesn't matter. You just send it to a new wallet
start again and then harder wallets per se.
You know, they are improving the software is improving and
getting easier. I don't think they'll ever be
Easy in a way that like the sort of like the the straw man of
easiness exists because it's similar to a computer or you
don't you don't run your own email server.
If you do not know you do ground between running your email
server or not, run your email server or you do it yourself and
nobody runs email server because the fitting ass.
So I think we'll continue to happen is large economic actors
in Bitcoin, in a lot of plebs will run their own nodes and
continue to solve validate and keep the networking check,
right? Because otherwise Bitcoin fails
miners will 100% run their own nodes because for them it
matters even more. Which Fork, they're spending
their energy into right, you know, developers will do the
same. So there is enough incentives
for enough people to maintain the network safe and have good
Solutions and you keep on, improving the solutions, right?
So like, you know, called card offers a certain set of
trade-offs, but then for example, you know, maybe once
something's a little bit easier that you have to trust the
vendor, then maybe you go to something cheaper, like a
ledger, right? Where it's closed.
Source. You're trusting them pay.
No, it's a competent, some reputation, eat, you can put all
the shit coins you want in it, right?
And that's the value proposition in there and people do go there.
I mean it's one of the ones that sells the most but you know
shoot a Bitcoin ER that have real Bitcoin.
Do that no right and and and and people do as they sort of go
through the rabbit hole, they doing stink tively find their
way, right? I always joked like Ledger is my
best sales funnel. People learn how to use a card
wallet Ledger Then the fire code card and then they keep their
shit coins on their Ledger. You know, the majority of the
people will have sequins. It's not going away, it's only
going to grow exponentially from now, right?
Because every scammer, or every person who doesn't know, he's a
scammer yet is going to want to create their scam because it's
just too easy. It's zero friction scamming.
So so so those scamming markets will grow to.
And and, you know, it would take like, you know, it took like
gold as well like to 3,000 years old in terms of like more like
human history using gold as a store of value, right?
Like, you know, The dollar is now 100 so ears, right?
Actually more and You know. I think it's just more options,
the world of have more options. A lot of options Will Fail Hard
in the coming years because of the amount of shitshow, if, you
know, modern economic theory, but the tools and Devolution of
Bitcoin tools who follow sort of like a traditional sort of way
in which technology evolved like, how cars used to kill
people by just going over a rock and you jumped out until we
figure out you could use a seat belt and you can have airbags
and all this stuff and now you can go ahead.
In 40s do not die. You know, like, you know,
electricity is to kill in your house, like they have this
amazing pollsters ball, high electricity kills, right?
So and people still don't understand how electricity
works, like, most people have no clue how the lamp turns on,
right? So but it does and they trust
it. So and do they have their own
power generation at home know? Maybe, maybe we will and
batteries, get better. But anyways, in this whole
convoluted explanation, my point is. things will evolve as the
market requires it, you know, like, We sell to like most
bitcoiners, right? And most bitcoiners I have no
issues with the device and teaching their families and
their kids, and their grandparents or whatever, right?
Like somehow they all figured out.
So I think as the feedback loop in the marketing proves, you
know, new products will come out, we will improve and sort of
like just slowly but surely things just keep on going.
In this scenario that we're talking about though.
Will there in your opinion ever be a point where Bitcoin that's
held by like individuals could maybe trade at or be valued
higher than Bitcoin? That's held by some third party
custodian. If we know go down some path, no
no, maybe now in scale because of friction, right?
And sort of like, the efficiency is not there.
Be coin, is a very sort of like inefficient Market.
I mean, look at Price Discovery. It's two guys in a dog trading
right now, and they can dunk the price, like, twenty thousand
dollars, right? No, not three dogs.
It's two guys know, right? Exactly.
Nobody's Sally. I have not met a person who's
selling, right? Like, it's like, you look at the
volumes of the exchanges pathetic, so it's just like
inefficient price Discovery, right?
So, so, yes, it's just that. I don't think if there was a
difference in price for that same you T, XO with the same
style ability and the same fungibility.
I think Bitcoin would fail, right?
I mean, that could be a small premium here and there depending
on the country you're in, right? But like if you if you just sort
of like if you average out right?
Because you know maybe you live in a country where you know is
super heavy-handed regulation right against free Bitcoin.
Let's put it this way and capture Bitcoin so maybe in your
country there will be a premium but like if you travel to
another country to spend the Bitcoin you'd be normal price.
Like it's just a really depends on like we are, you are, but I
think he averages out. Q unless you have any other
questions. I think at this point we'll wrap
it up and BK. Thank you so much for joining
us. I want to give you the last
word, where can people find you? Where can they follow you?
And after they actually check out your new podcast, right?
I mean, you can find me on Twitter at nvk.
You can check out our products on koat.com and yeah.
Go listen to the new pod. And if you have new projects
that you want to highlight it, that's the whole goal of the
this podcast is just reach out on bitcoin dots review.
That's the domain. Thank you again so much for
joining us. Thanks for having me, guys.