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Welcome back, guys, and I'm 
excited to introduce Our Guest 

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for today, but I'll let P give 
him a proper introduction. 

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We made an exception for our 
guests, we usually require them 

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to come down to just one letter 
to come onto this show, but 

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we've given nvk. 
All three of his letters P. 

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Could you give him a proper 
introduction? 

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Yeah, absolutely man. 
I mean, He hardly needs an 

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introduction. 
Nvk has created. 

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I would say the most well-known 
Hardware device in the Bitcoin 

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space, he's created the cold 
card and many other products 

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around it. 
But one of the things that I 

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think is so interesting about 
and because approach is he is he

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always chooses security and 
effectiveness of the tool over 

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the ux, he's an amazing job of 
combining them, but I'm really 

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excited today to talk about how 
he makes those decisions and the

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thinking behind it. 
So, and BK welcome to the show 

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you are A huge part of the 
Bitcoin space get in here. 

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Hey, it's been a while, dude. 
I know. 

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Yeah. 
The the sweetest voice in the 

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Bitcoin space. 
So yeah. 

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Thanks, thanks for having me, 
guys. 

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This is this is I hope we can we
have a good chat. 

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Yeah, I'm super excited. 
So yeah, I mean ndk what would 

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you what would you add to your 
story? 

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I didn't get him. 
Give the full spectrum of who 

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you are and what you're about. 
Do you want to do that for our 

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audience? 
Just that everybody knows how 

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fucking awesome. 
You are. 

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I mean, you know, I'm kind of 
irrelevant, you know, we have a 

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team of people and I was sort of
because it was pre doxxed. 

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I end up just being the face of 
the company all the time, but we

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are very tiny team, But Mighty 
and we've been, we've been 

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building hardware for Bitcoin 
for since I think maybe I think 

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our first Bitcoin project was 
2011 and then and then I think 

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2012 was probably when we 
started like doing. 

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Hardware. 
We built the queen hsms back. 

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Then we built a block Explorer 
back then. 

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We did a lot of a lot of stuff. 
We may be many people if they've

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been in the space for a while, 
they have had quite kites debit 

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cards. 
We used to have payment machines

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and debit cards that function as
an exchange as well. 

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You were all over the world for 
a while, 2014 was a little too 

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early for those. 
What else? 

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I mean, you know, we had that we
had a web wall for a long time. 

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There was, there was the backend
for many exchanges even bit Max 

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Way, way back then. 
Yeah. 

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We've been in this space for a 
while. 

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And the notably this day is 
everybody. 

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Everybody seems to to, to be 
really into the the opened. 

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I'm the block clock, the code 
card, our in FC cards are come 

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and pile. 
More of stuff. 

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We going to just, just like 
building stuff. 

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Did you just say bio morph? 
No no no, I'm fine more of 

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stuff. 
Okay. 

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I was gonna say what the fuck 
does that mean? 

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And I want one, you could get a 
Brazilian out of Brazil but you 

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can't get the accent. 
Tomorrow, I love it. 

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I love it. 
Yeah, man. 

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I mean I you know, I don't want 
to like blow too much smoke up 

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your ass, but I think you've 
gone through, you've been in the

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space for a significant amount 
of time. 

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And as I referenced earlier to, 
I'd love to hear about sort of 

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how you and your team. 
Make the design decisions that 

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you do. 
Because what do you think it's 

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accurate to was I accurate when 
I said that you guys choose 

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security and kind of 
effectiveness of the tool over, 

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you know, like you X, whenever 
those two things are in 

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Conflict, it's the other, which 
is an unusual choice. 

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So I think Think, I think there 
is a few things that because 

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most most people who make 
products are not exposed to 

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Hardware development. 
They often times, you know, they

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did it as a hobby with a kit 
that they take and so they have 

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to inherit the kids set of 
trade-offs. 

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Very, very few companies in this
space. 

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Do the harder from scratch, 
right? 

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So that gives us a lot more room
to to do the things the way we 

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want. 
So that's why products have tend

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to have a certain way of looking
and being that are different. 

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And your standard sort of 
consumer electronics. 

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And I think the main thing for 
us is we build products for 

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ourselves primarily, right? 
It's like, is this the thing I 

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want to use every day? 
That is that is the question we 

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ask ourselves and that's how we 
build the products, right? 

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And and the products are built 
to be truly utilitarian, but we 

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joke that they need to have a 
personality and in at least one 

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joke in them. 
So we don't ship something 

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unless there is a joke in them 
too. 

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That's just how we are. 
We are super Attila Terry and 

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sort of like we're not Gamers or
sort of like you know, like 

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we're not like we're kind of 
weird people and but you know we

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have us as a humor and their 
products have to have it so, you

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know, like is it the shape of 
the opened I'm is it the ECC 

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calculator on cold card? 
You know, is it that the Satoshi

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quotes on the block clock? 
Everything has to sort of like 

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respect that sort of framework 
that we have. 

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For things it's like, does it 
does it accomplish that not just

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accomplished, does it thrive on 
that specific that specific 

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functionality that we intend the
thing for right? 

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And you know, some people know 
that some of us are amateur 

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radio operators as well. 
So we like a lot of knobs and 

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buttons that translates into 
somehow products that we think 

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that we should expose as much 
function and options and 

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settings to the users, We don't 
through users like stupid 

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people. 
What we do do is we find the 

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ways to prevent ourselves and 
our users from making mistakes, 

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right? 
So, cold card is essentially the

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only harder wallet that like, 
does a lot of checks in on, say 

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change outputs and a bunch of 
stuff, so that you can't just 

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easily get duped into something 
or you can't just easily make a 

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mistake. 
We have sort of like, sanity 

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checks and everything and and 
that's sort of like and that's a

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security approach. 
Like, is this like very layered?

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So there is security, making 
sure users, don't screw 

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something up even though they 
have a lot of options and 

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features we check also to make 
sure that, you know, addresses 

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are right and all that stuff, we
make sure that the the menus 

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have an explanation of what is 
it, right? 

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And we don't try to hide Bitcoin
from the users. 

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We want the users to understand 
what's going on. 

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Because see, you could take the 
approach. 

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Say, for example Ledger, right? 
You know, fantastic team, I know

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Those guys, they care about what
they do, but their approach is 

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sort of like, you know, hide 
everything right. 

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But then the problem is their 
users going to get a private 

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message saying, hey, send me 
your seed, I'm here to help you.

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Right. 
And it don't know, the CD is 

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they don't understand what's 
going on. 

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So they go in, they send the 
seat, right? 

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So in every type of the way on 
how you set up your code card, 

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you can do it in like 30 seconds
where you just plug it in. 

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And it generates a Then boom. 
You have a wallet right, just 

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like every other easy wallet out
there or you know, you can you 

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can take it all the way to 
Foo-Foo on tinfoil cypherpunk 

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mode. 
Where, you know, you're checking

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the firmware, you're rebuilding 
your checking the component, you

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know, you're throwing dice, 
you're doing all this stuff, 

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right. 
The open Diamonds the same, 

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right? 
Like we don't want you to trust 

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us. 
So we ask you to identify oh in.

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So use that file provably to 
generate the private key and 

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that's also very Very selfish 
to. 

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I just want to get kidnapped, 
right? 

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If I had a product that was 
tested on us, we would be a 

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point of capture and at that 
wouldn't be very safe to us, 

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right? 
So we try to build things in 

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this mindset. 
We're just being very pragmatic 

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to latarian and then try to 
create a product that we can 

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manufacture in the scale that we
do, which is, which is not 

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small, but it's not like Sense 
on great. 

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I mean, we make products for 
bitcoiners. 

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And we're at the mercy of the 
Bitcoin Market size. 

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So we tried to sort of like, 
find this very, very fine 

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balance on, how can we do that? 
How can we deliver the most 

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amount of value right remaining 
a profitable company. 

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So we can build more stuff. 
And, and that truly influences 

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on how the products are designs 
themselves, right? 

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It's like finding quality 
components finding quality, 

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everything, you know the plastic
is not just plastic is like bulk

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are putting it. 
That's like clear it costs more 

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but you know, like it's just, 
you have to be that way. 

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Right. 
So yeah. 

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So like that that's sort of like
the give and take in the whole 

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process, right? 
Like harder is much more than 

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just sort of like putting 
together some software into a 

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chip. 
It's like how do you design 

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everything and everything fits 
and everything is a function of 

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each other in both complexity 
and cost and that's the fun at 

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least? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

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I mean, oh, actually, one thing 
I do want to take a moment to do

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is to define the terms we're 
using. 

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So can you maybe take us through
what an open? 

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I'm is and how that is different
from a hardware wallet and then 

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kind of wondered what a hardware
while it is why it's important, 

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sure, in any order you want. 
Yeah. 

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So okay, so opened, I'm is 
essentially a physical Bitcoin 

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Right. 
Traditionally back in the day 

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the only way to give somebody 
Bitcoin without them having a 

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wallet was to print a paper 
wallet. 

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The problem with that is if I 
give your paper wallet, I can 

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take the money back because I 
know the private key. 

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So we spent years trying to 
figure out what can we do from, 

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like, metal, whatever. 
And then what opened I'm became 

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is this thing where neither 
party knows the private key. 

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Provably. 
So so then when you give it to 

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somebody else, you know that 
they cannot do a chargeback, 

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right? 
They cannot spend you. 

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So you wouldn't seal it and then
you can spend the coins that are

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in it or you pass it along to 
the next person in the in 

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person, right? 
So that's what opened. 

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00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,800
I mean, is, it's like physical 
Bitcoin. 

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It's a bearer instrument, which 
is really novel, I mean, that it

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is. 
And, and yeah, I mean, when you 

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say unseal it's literally have 
to like stand Stab a hole for 

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the the the board in order to 
unlock it and that was more 

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because of Personality we could 
have done with software, but it 

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wouldn't be a satisfying and a 
very original when you actually 

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had to break a piece of the PCB.
I don't know. 

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I kind of love that though 
because it's again, it's it 

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makes the entire process 
physical. 

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So like you can literally look. 
Yeah. 

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You can look at an open time and
be like, is there a hole through

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this part of the device? 
You know? 

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And obviously you want to verify
the address and everything that 

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separately plugging it into 
something, but I think that's, 

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it's, it's a cool idea. 
Yeah, that's what's up. 

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Scarred product that's coming 
out is is essentially the 

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evolution of opened I'm open I'm
still going to exist but it's 

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like cheaper and it's going to 
be an FC and he has 10 slots, 

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you can have ten keys in it and 
you can have art and all that 

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good stuff, right? 
So so that's that's the fun on 

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that. 
Sort of category of products. 

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00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:08,400
We make the bearer instruments, 
physical Bitcoin. 

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And so, this is the SATs card. 
Correct. 

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00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:13,400
Yes. 
So, on the Sands card, is it 

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basically, there's ten slots and
then once you like, you You, you

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know, deposit funds into those 
addresses. 

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And then you have to like, 
unseal them. 

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And once you've unsealed one of 
those ten slots, it's like down 

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and you only got nine lives and 
you and will tell you that's 

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been unsealed and you rotate to 
the next one. 

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00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,100
So they can reuse it ten times 
because there was room in the 

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chip. 
So we exposing that to the 

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users. 
Oh interesting. 

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Okay it's not limited to 10 it 
just rotates through I mean you 

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can use the 10 at the same time 
but yes, the idea is that you 

227
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,200
can use more than once, right? 
So there's Billy a bit, last 

228
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,100
E-Waste gotta go. 
I mean, as you mentioned, you 

229
00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:49,900
made a reference to it. 
I think the only thing that I 

230
00:11:49,908 --> 00:11:52,700
would have again, something like
that is that you would be much 

231
00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:55,100
harder to shove something, like 
an incredi card form. 

232
00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:58,900
Factor into one's wrap them in 
order to like safely transported

233
00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:01,400
across a border. 
Which, as I understand, it is 

234
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,900
why the open time has those 
rounded edges? 

235
00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:05,900
I mean that was really made for 
gents F. 

236
00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,900
He was a very unhappy with the 
this square corners, Cherie 

237
00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:11,700
tested. 
It at many times before leaving,

238
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:14,300
that product feedback, I did not
ask for products back. 

239
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:17,800
So so yeah. 
So so then the car Is like that.

240
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,300
And we're going to have some fun
cards that are sort of like 

241
00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,900
covert as well. 
One of them is looks like a 

242
00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:26,900
hotel Key and if you go to the 
address is like a hotel website,

243
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,900
that's so cool. 
We're going to have a lot of fun

244
00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:33,800
of that stuff. 
I fucking love that gossip then.

245
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:36,800
Yeah, go ahead. 
I was gonna say so, feel free to

246
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,900
continue on the thread that you 
were on or I was going to say, 

247
00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:41,900
can you describe for the 
audience, like, what a hardware 

248
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,100
while it is and why it's 
important when we're talking 

249
00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:45,900
about Bitcoin? 
Yeah. 

250
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:51,000
So so So harder wallets are 
essentially, a means for you, to

251
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,800
store a key sign, a transaction 
outside of a computer. 

252
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,600
So, back in the day, everybody 
used to get robbed all the time,

253
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,700
right? 
We get computer hacked, or 

254
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,700
accident or whatever and then 
harder wallets came about. 

255
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:08,500
And then a lot of those issues 
started to fade because you're 

256
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:15,100
essentially separating the, the,
the signing and the key and the,

257
00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:17,200
in the key storage from the 
Right? 

258
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,500
Because computers are this 
extremely general purpose 

259
00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:25,300
devices that have a football 
field worth of attack surface, 

260
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,900
right? 
Computers were not designed to 

261
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:32,500
hold secrets. 
So say for example, you copy a 

262
00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:37,300
piece of text on your screen, 
every program on your computer, 

263
00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:41,500
can see that clipboard. 
Right. 

264
00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:46,300
So it's an absolute disaster of 
complexity. 

265
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,400
Right, there is millions and 
millions and millions and 

266
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,100
millions of lines of code 
running. 

267
00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:53,100
And like, you know, hundreds of 
thousands of processes running 

268
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:56,400
the same time, very difficult. 
And even if you do, make your 

269
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,800
computer secured, there's still 
like a ton of stuff even if the 

270
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,000
most open source computer that 
you absolutely cannot open, 

271
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,400
okay? 
Like it is a total pipe dream to

272
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,700
think you can make a computer 
secure. 

273
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,300
Now, if you're an extremely 
advanced, You have a chance, 

274
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,400
right? 
You can do some stuff to keep it

275
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:17,800
that way. 
But realistically speaking for 

276
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,800
most people including people who
are Advanced, you know, you 

277
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,100
rather just offload all that to 
a device that purposely built 

278
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,100
very narrow build for Bitcoin, 
right? 

279
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,800
So, and harder wallets are 
actually Abby's no more. 

280
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,600
They should have been called 
signing devices, which are made 

281
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,800
a little website. 
For assigning devices.com 

282
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:40,300
explains. 
Why? 

283
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:47,500
So, So, a wallet is a piece of 
software that has Block Chain 

284
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:50,000
data information. 
It has the larger, right? 

285
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,100
So Bitcoin core electrum 
whatever. 

286
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:57,200
So they go in the pick, your 
transaction, your UT EXO's, 

287
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,900
right, and then they build a 
transaction now, if they have a 

288
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,100
private key in them, they can 
sign it. 

289
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:08,000
If they don't, then they send it
to the harder wallet. 

290
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,100
So hold card, made PS. 
T is partially sighted, Bitcoin 

291
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,300
transaction standard like widely
used now. 

292
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:17,400
And it's essentially a fire that
you take you to the harder 

293
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,300
wallet, which is not connected 
to the internet is not connected

294
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,100
to anything. 
Right? 

295
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,600
And and the harder wallet 
assigning device, all he does is

296
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,700
like calcium the screen. 
Hey, do you really want to send 

297
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:33,600
decent amount of Bitcoin to this
address? 

298
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,400
And then you say yes or no and 
then what it does is it creates 

299
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,600
a signature over that 
transaction. 

300
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,600
Right? 
And then you can take it back to

301
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,800
the computer and send it out to 
the network to broadcast a 

302
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,200
transaction. 
So it really is like just a 

303
00:15:51,208 --> 00:15:53,400
device to not shit where you 
eat. 

304
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,100
It's great way to say that. 
I'm totally stealing that your 

305
00:15:58,100 --> 00:15:59,900
slogan should be don't shit 
where you eat. 

306
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:03,700
Use a signing device. 
Yeah, I mean I think so we 

307
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:06,200
talked about attack surface and 
you mentioned that it's you 

308
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,600
know, trying to air gap, ones, 
computer is basically it's not 

309
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,800
going to happen, right? 
It's not not. 

310
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,300
Feasible. 
I also just want to acknowledge 

311
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:16,400
like you have so many domains 
that just redirect a random 

312
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:17,400
places. 
What is the one? 

313
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,300
That's like don't try to air 
gap, your computer. 

314
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,600
No it's I think it's air gap 
computer or computers.com. 

315
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,900
I think, I love this track of 
the domains. 

316
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,500
I love the CSS on that one. 
Yeah, so I mean, so you've got 

317
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:34,600
this, this purpose-built device 
a assigning device that does one

318
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,000
thing and does one thing very 
well, she said it basically, 

319
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,000
lets you verify that you 
actually want to make a 

320
00:16:39,008 --> 00:16:40,900
transaction. 
And then when you hit a button, 

321
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:47,000
it, Generates the signed PS BT, 
which then can be rebroadcast to

322
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,800
the network by an external 
thing, that's right. 

323
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:55,100
And talk to me about the, the 
design decisions that went into,

324
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,000
you know, what has changed over 
the years when we go from, cause

325
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,400
there's been four versions of 
the cold card so far. 

326
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:01,900
And what's changed over the 
years. 

327
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:03,500
What, what upgrades have been 
made? 

328
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:06,300
Why were those important? 
Yeah, and why is the the newest 

329
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:08,500
one? 
Kind of more secure than 

330
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:09,700
previous ones. 
Yeah. 

331
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:13,599
So so first June 1, Wasn't going
to even have a case. 

332
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,500
We just made it because I was 
not happy with the Hydraulics 

333
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,400
that were in the market. 
And we wanted one for ourselves 

334
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,900
that there was just that simple 
and the touch buttons on that 

335
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:25,300
one. 
We're kind of problematic for 

336
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:30,200
most people in Europe, somehow 
he was not doing well. 

337
00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:35,700
So then, and he was using the 
first first gen of that secure 

338
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:38,900
element. 
And then version 2 had a better 

339
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,100
secure element and clicky 
buttons. 

340
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,100
A few other sort of 
improvements, you know, just 

341
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,000
general sort of, that's why we 
call it MK, right? 

342
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,600
So mark one Mark to Mark, 3 is 
just like incremental 

343
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,900
improvements and then Mark tree,
is it was a very big upgrade 

344
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,700
again. 
Newer secure element. 

345
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,100
That was the had some fixes, 
which was kind of cool and we 

346
00:18:01,108 --> 00:18:03,500
started supporting a lot more 
features as well, right? 

347
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:09,100
So we speed up things a lot more
security, Kalam our security 

348
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:11,800
improvements on the on the Der a
spin. 

349
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,100
Ian what else? 
There was just a lot more sort 

350
00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:18,000
of improvements. 
Generally speaking that Mark for

351
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,900
was a huge upgrade so Mark for 
has a family up on the on the 

352
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:27,600
main processor so it's like 
night and day. 

353
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,600
We joke, that's infinite memory 
now because essentially now we 

354
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,400
can sign any transaction size. 
The bottleneck would be the 

355
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,200
Bitcoin network, not cold Kurt. 
So if you're a minor trying to 

356
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,400
sign a bunch of small inputs, we
can sign it. 

357
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,800
It To secure elements so it's so
marquetry is yeah. 

358
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,900
So Mark 3 is and defeated right?
Nobody ever. 

359
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,300
So, Mark Mark. 
Shoot, sorry, Mark to Ledger 

360
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,800
managed to spend enough money to
get in, right? 

361
00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:57,300
And and it's not reproducible. 
That easy. 

362
00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:01,400
Anyways, very complicated, you 
need a million-dollar lab and it

363
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,100
may be you might screw up the 
sample Mark 3. 

364
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,000
Nobody has to this date managed 
to provide us with proof that 

365
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,000
they can extract the seed. 
And that's like we've some have 

366
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,600
he heavy resources behind it 
Denmark for we are like Hey what

367
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,100
how could we make this extra 
stupid. 

368
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,100
So we went to to secure elements
and this new processor so it's 

369
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,500
really cool. 
And the way we design card is 

370
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,000
that we don't trust any of the 
chips. 

371
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,800
They don't see each other, 
right? 

372
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,000
So even if you found one chip, 
you cannot get the secret out 

373
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:37,700
because the secret is going to 
be encrypted with a secret 

374
00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,800
that's on the other. 
So now you need one of each. 

375
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:43,500
You need three of them. 
Wait, sorry, walk me through 

376
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:45,000
that happen. 
How does that work? 

377
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:49,400
Yes, so because secure elements 
are kind of like black boxes in 

378
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,000
a way. 
We don't trust them, right? 

379
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:55,100
Even though the ones we use, we 
try to find a dumbest most 

380
00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:58,800
secured chip that we could find.
So there is no real software in 

381
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,800
them. 
It's just, it's called fixed. 

382
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,100
Action silicon. 
It means that the chip just does

383
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,000
the functions that are on the 
Silicon. 

384
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,100
They don't have Farm where they 
don't have any of that stuff. 

385
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:10,600
So it's a lot better to all out 
of it and all those things and a

386
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,600
lot less room for back doors and
things, so we don't trust any of

387
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,100
them. 
So we make them have to use a 

388
00:20:19,108 --> 00:20:21,400
different chip for a shared 
secret. 

389
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,700
So interesting, I got it so that
if your device is off, nobody 

390
00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,600
can go o with their known 
backdoor say you're like, you 

391
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,200
know, the NSA right? 
You go to the chip and say, Hey,

392
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,700
I want to use the back door that
we put on you, you know, on your

393
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:36,000
design and add a backwards for 
food. 

394
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:43,000
Yeah, no but now it's three. 
So a from different vendors, I 

395
00:20:43,008 --> 00:20:46,900
love it, I love it. 
So one thing, I mean, you know, 

396
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,900
we've He spoke about on Club has
previously and one of the 

397
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:52,100
things, one of the points that 
you made is that even with all 

398
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:56,100
these these, you know, 
significant security upgrades, 

399
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:59,700
one should approach it or think 
about it, as if, if someone had 

400
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:03,800
enough money and they had, you 
know, a super high-end lab that 

401
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,600
they could eventually get into 
one of these devices. 

402
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,300
Is that, is that still the kind 
of way that you would articulate

403
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,600
it. 
I mean, I think we arrived at a 

404
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,100
point. 
Now, we called cards design that

405
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,100
I'm given in, Infinite 
resources, infinite times an 

406
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:22,000
infinite samples. 
Anything is possible, Right? 

407
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:30,300
But but what we do is we raise 
the cost of attack, we raise the

408
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:36,300
time of attack. 
And we raised the the failure of

409
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:39,400
attack, right? 
Because they only really have 

410
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,600
one go at each chip. 
Because they can break the 

411
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,800
sample. 
Yep. 

412
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,100
There he is. 
Right. 

413
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:51,300
So, so now because you have 
three is exponential failure 

414
00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:58,100
rate, So it's, you know, it 
really becomes a problem. 

415
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,000
So let's go into even with this,
you know, a super secure 

416
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Hardware device. 
One can still lose one's 

417
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,400
Bitcoin, of course. 
So what are you what are the 

418
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,700
most common ways that people 
tend to, you know, fuck this up 

419
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000
and basically lose access to 
their Bitcoin. 

420
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:19,500
I think the main thing is, is 
that like to say is most people 

421
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,500
will screw themselves out of 
their coins before somebody 

422
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,800
takes them. 
From them. 

423
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,400
So for example, you know people 
will have complex backups, 

424
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,900
right. 
They're gonna, you know, put the

425
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,100
back up in a QR they're going to
print it or they're going to 

426
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:38,500
make some convoluted 
self-invented, encryption, 

427
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,800
whatever, they're gonna do not 
rely on crept out. 

428
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,500
Jesus know. 
So, what you should do is you 

429
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,300
get a metal plate. 
We make a cheap one or go buy it

430
00:22:47,308 --> 00:22:51,600
from somebody else and you put 
your 12 to 24 words there. 

431
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,400
Okay. 
And and you are already ahead of

432
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,900
99% of the people because, you 
know, house fires do happen, you

433
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,700
know, is this 100% proof of 
house house? 

434
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:05,400
Fire proof know, right? 
It's to a piece of metal that 

435
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,500
could heat enough and something 
else could destroy it. 

436
00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:12,100
But but, you know, if you say, 
if you put it in your backyard 

437
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:13,900
or your basement or whatever, 
right? 

438
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:18,100
Like you've already increase 
your chances of survivability 

439
00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:19,000
much more. 
Right. 

440
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,900
Another thing that you could do 
is have a passphrase, make sure 

441
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:28,600
Oh no, did we lose you? 
I ain't saying, hey, we need you

442
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,900
too. 
I think we lost you for a second

443
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:32,500
off. 
Is there any way you can get to,

444
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,200
like, higher bandwidth, internet
or is this? 

445
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,100
There's no, I am on the remote 
on the internet and satellite 

446
00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:40,100
internet. 
All right. 

447
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:41,100
Sounds good. 
Keep going on. 

448
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,600
Yeah, those. 
So if it starts getting choppy, 

449
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,300
let me know what turn off video,
that helps Okay, and your audio 

450
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:50,000
is still good. 
So even with that the yeah, 

451
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,800
we'll keep going keep going. 
All right. 

452
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,500
So yeah, go ahead are good and 
we go. 

453
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:57,400
Yeah no so that's it. 
Like so like make sure you back 

454
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,600
up back up in metal if you are 
concerned about single metal we 

455
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,800
didn't invent a new set up 
called C decks or so that you 

456
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,900
can split the seed safely. 
Now, rolling your own crypto, 

457
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,300
not splitting the seed, 
literally in half So any idea 

458
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:15,900
there is that the their 
operation is basically a 

459
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:17,000
standard. 
So you can go. 

460
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,600
Yeah. 
I mean, it's standard computer 

461
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,500
program and you can do it by 
hand with a PDF. 

462
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:27,700
So even if you have a solar 
flare event, the wipes, have the

463
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:30,700
Earth and you are in the on the 
unfortunate half. 

464
00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:34,100
You can still recover with using
a PDF been paper. 

465
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:36,500
So timeout. 
We're going to stop on this 

466
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:38,600
topic because I'm so sick of 
this fun. 

467
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:42,900
We list between the three of us.
At least 10 different things 

468
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,800
that quite frankly. 
Like if something were to happen

469
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,000
in all of the internet were to 
shut down. 

470
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,000
Like there are 10 other, very 
vital things that we could very 

471
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000
quickly and easily assess. 
That would also be in just as 

472
00:24:57,008 --> 00:25:00,200
much trouble as Bitcoin and I'll
even go. 

473
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,500
So far as to say, like, all of 
your finances are fucked. 

474
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:06,600
I don't give a shit. 
If you were a Bitcoin Maxi or a 

475
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,100
Fiat Maxie or fucking Peter 
Schiff and all your gold, like 

476
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,200
you're not going to do. 
Anything if the internet's down 

477
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,400
with all that money. 
So I just wanted to chime in and

478
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,800
say that to your sense. 
Yeah. 

479
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,000
So so the the solar flare event.
I mean, when it's like for a 

480
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,200
solar flare to be that strong, 
the amount of problems you're 

481
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,400
going to have or ginormous. 
So all their planes are going to

482
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,300
fall all the probably the power 
grid has stopped because the 

483
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,800
distribution is electronic and 
some will might still get a 

484
00:25:34,808 --> 00:25:38,600
little bit because maybe the box
was properly, but you have to be

485
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,900
so, immense amount of power, 
let's just assume. 

486
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:47,900
All this fail-safes fail. 
So water stops power stops, car 

487
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:52,400
stops pacemaker. 
Stop internet stops. 

488
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:57,500
Every everything that, you know,
in your life that is like post 

489
00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:01,500
caveman stops. 
Like you can't even run a farm 

490
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,600
anymore because it tractor will 
stop. 

491
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,500
Unless you have an old tractor 
that's at least of your 

492
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:08,500
concerns. 
Yeah. 

493
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,400
Your toilet won't flush because 
it's going to back up because 

494
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,000
the sewer is probably has pump. 
As well. 

495
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:22,300
You're what like, no, you're 
watering Austin Bitcoin survives

496
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:25,200
because it's the other half of 
the planet will have a copy of 

497
00:26:25,208 --> 00:26:29,000
the blockchain. 
So now you just take a flight 

498
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,000
from the other side to come. 
Pick you up, you take your seat 

499
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,200
to the other side and you make 
it work fights. 

500
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,500
Don't work. 
So, how are we getting there? 

501
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:39,400
I VK not always the other half 
of the planet will still 

502
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,600
survive. 
So it's only half the planet. 

503
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:46,500
They got to I've got to wait for
some flights from the other side

504
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:49,700
of the planet to come over here.
Yes okay got it, got it, got it,

505
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,300
got it. 
If your amateur radio gear is 

506
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:56,000
going to still work because it 
was powered off wild. 

507
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,600
Yeah, I actually have like 
survival radio equipment that I 

508
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,300
take when I go back country 
snowboarding's, this is good, 

509
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:05,200
good to know, good to know that.
That should be on that. 

510
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:09,400
Definitely take everywhere I go 
in the world going forward back 

511
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:13,400
so this is actually something 
like that but yeah, I do as a 

512
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,000
breach of Like talking about 
obviously week, a, you have had 

513
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,200
broadcast a Bitcoin transaction 
over ham radio, which is fucking

514
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,200
awesome. 
What is the current state of 

515
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:29,400
using, like mesh networks to 
broadcast Bitcoin transactions? 

516
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,600
There's a similar to renewable 
energy. 

517
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,700
Totally fucked. 
It's a toy. 

518
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:38,400
So don't see. 
This is the thing, right? 

519
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:41,900
Amateur radio, whenever shit 
happens is the first thing that 

520
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,200
comes back online the day. 
They Hams have nothing else to 

521
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,700
do, but to go help people with 
their gear, it's how half of 

522
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:50,300
them. 
Justify its existence. 

523
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,100
So, it really is there. 
It's just, it's low bandwidth 

524
00:27:55,100 --> 00:28:00,500
and it's cumbersome, right? 
But, but it's like, full on full

525
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:02,100
recoverable. 
It's amazing. 

526
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,800
It really is. 
And there's like, 50 different 

527
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,400
molds and all kinds of stuff. 
You know, I can reach Japan from

528
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,600
over here and I'm very far away 
from there. 

529
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:13,700
So, so, you know, all the stuff 
is doable is just how much pain.

530
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,900
Because it's, you know low 
bandwidth and cumbersome. 

531
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,700
That's all Got it, got it. 
I want to hear your thoughts of 

532
00:28:20,708 --> 00:28:23,900
Shifting completely direction. 
We were talking about inflation 

533
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,800
before you jumped in. 
We're talking about the the CPI 

534
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,800
print today. 
As a can of Coke, what is the 

535
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,600
experience that you're having 
around the prices of goods going

536
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,000
of? 
How is that affecting you? 

537
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,400
I was things here. 
Are you can think of Canada is 

538
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,100
essentially 30% worse than us. 
Generally speaking about 

539
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:49,100
anything economic got it, you 
know. 

540
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,500
So so just think about our 
dollar parity spread, right. 

541
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:56,400
The difference that we have 
that's that's normally our 

542
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000
compounding issue, generally 
speaking. 

543
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:04,400
We do, we are strong exporter of
energy and resources, right? 

544
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,600
So, even if the country is 
completely idiotic about not 

545
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,300
exporting the oil in the proper 
volumes that he needs to, we 

546
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:13,500
still export a lot of crap. 
So Canadian dollar still fairly 

547
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:15,800
strong. 
That's why it can be a tiny. 

548
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,500
It was it hundreds of the 
American economy 1000 for the 

549
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,700
American economy, and still have
a currency that's fairly strong.

550
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:25,100
But, you know, and you have 
strong rule of law and, you 

551
00:29:25,108 --> 00:29:27,800
know, things like except from 
Trudeau wants to put truckers in

552
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,700
jail but aside. 
For that, you know, it's still a

553
00:29:30,708 --> 00:29:33,900
solid country, right? 
With solid people in solid 

554
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,800
resources so it's he survives. 
It will always survive but you 

555
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,500
know, food is more expensive, is
a cold country so you have other

556
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:43,300
issues as well that come with 
that. 

557
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:50,600
Yeah here I was surprised. 
Yeah sorry no no keep going on. 

558
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,100
VK the the CPI pi and it was 
kind of don't know did you 

559
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,900
didn't think Parker take? 
Okay. 

560
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:03,000
There's right, just just go and 
say oh it's 6 or fight, who 

561
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,900
cares? 
That is exactly what I was 

562
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:05,600
saying before you too. 
Man. 

563
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,100
I don't like the dollars already
a construct, right? 

564
00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:12,100
Like it's very post modernist so
might as well have the CPI 

565
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,800
people's modernist as well, 
right? 

566
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,400
Just just say that number me 
meeting to existence, you know, 

567
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,100
just keep on saying the CPI is 5
or 4. 

568
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,100
If you becomes 5 or 4, that's 
it. 

569
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,900
I mean they're going to has to 
be a degree. 

570
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,600
There's a degree of. 
Like I do agree with you. 

571
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,400
Like they could just very well 
have just had like cpi's five, 

572
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,800
everyone. 
Shut the fuck up, but the truth 

573
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,700
is even 9.1. 
Reading is complete and utter 

574
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:43,300
bullshit here in America because
that's not like when I go fill 

575
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:46,300
up, gas is when it was not nine 
percent inflation from when I 

576
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:49,700
filled up last year, usually, on
July 13th. 

577
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,500
So they called that a six-star. 
No, it's because of external 

578
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:55,500
effects or whatever. 
It's all put in something, they 

579
00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:59,900
blamed everything but themselves
because a nice I said at the 

580
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:04,100
very beginning of the episode, 
you have people grading 

581
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:07,800
themselves and being asked to 
that and share with the rest of 

582
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,300
the world. 
Hey, how was the work that you 

583
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:12,800
did? 
That you self report on like 

584
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,300
what is the incentive for them 
to turn around and say we messed

585
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,700
up or even we got it, right? 
There's no incentive either way.

586
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,600
So if we want to use peas, 
excuse me. 

587
00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:28,500
We want to use peas logic to 
like really understand why they 

588
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:31,100
do what they do. 
Do is because there's a degree 

589
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:34,800
of accountability that does 
exist through whether or not you

590
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,200
like them or not mainstream 
media asking these things. 

591
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,600
Because the truth is people are 
upset over it. 

592
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,200
So they're creating a lot of 
narratives and dialogues and 

593
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,200
click baby titles that say all 
the price of gas is this save 

594
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,700
money on your grocery trip by 
doing this or that. 

595
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:54,300
So that the information or the 
idea that inflation is here is 

596
00:31:54,300 --> 00:32:00,100
in the Zeitgeist and it would be
such a disconnect from Reality, 

597
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
which mind you there is already 
this disconnect from reality, 

598
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,200
from what these people in d.c. 
tell Americans and the rest of 

599
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,700
the world with what's going on. 
There is that disconnect. 

600
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,800
But it would be such a stark 
almost in the vein of the Comet 

601
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,200
of let them eat cake from the 
French Revolution of. 

602
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:22,900
It's not my problems. 
Like I don't care like give them

603
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:26,200
whatever they like. 
No that's for better or worse. 

604
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,100
Technology has connected us in 
this way. 

605
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:33,900
Way that if we want to hold 
these people accountable can. 

606
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,700
But for whatever reason we just 
don't, yeah, I think it's an 

607
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:40,200
illusion, you can't keep them 
accountable. 

608
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,800
It always at Nancy, Pelosi is 
like half a billion dollars now,

609
00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:47,200
net worth. 
I mean, there is no 

610
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,600
accountability for the modern, 
you know, soft socialism state 

611
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,600
that we did exist now, right? 
Is it, is it total and fuan 

612
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,000
kleptocracy? 
And you know, at least like in 

613
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,700
Canada media is foolish. 
Subsidized by the government and

614
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:04,500
you also have the state 
broadcaster so there is only one

615
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:08,800
narrative and and unfortunately 
and fortunately. 

616
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:15,500
So the majority of the 
population don't live like in 

617
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:19,400
the in the city Center's, right?
It's almost just slightly less 

618
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,300
than half. 
I think the Us distribution is 

619
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:24,400
similar and, and people outside 
major. 

620
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,000
Major city centers have a normal
life and don't give a fuck about

621
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,300
any other shit that's going on. 
In the The world, you know, all 

622
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,800
this stuff that like we all 
arguing Twitter or like this, 

623
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,800
things are completely like 
irrelevant to most people living

624
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,200
their lives. 
And you know, I think he just 

625
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,800
happens that a lot of us are 
just a little like hyper 

626
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,700
connected in a way sort of like 
hyper aware of all the issues. 

627
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:54,400
And and that creates sort of 
like this this cycles of like 

628
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,900
Doom and Gloom which also sell a
lot when it comes to Media. 

629
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,400
Right. 
You know, there is always bad 

630
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,100
shit happening in the world and 
there is always good shit 

631
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:08,500
happening in the world. 
When when the markets are going 

632
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:12,800
down, the only focus on the bad 
shit and when the markets are 

633
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,699
going up, they don't really 
mention the good shit either. 

634
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,000
They just don't focus on the bad
shit as much. 

635
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,199
So, like it's this weird thing 
where it's like there is very 

636
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,000
little, good news, generally 
speaking about anything, because

637
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:29,100
nobody really cares about good 
news. 

638
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,600
It's yours isn't cell. 
It is deeper than that. 

639
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,000
It's just maybe just human 
trusted in things that are not 

640
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,600
like sounding the alarm on 
something, right? 

641
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,699
We just sort of like take it for
granted but I think just like 

642
00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:47,800
social media the way that we 
live now is suitable, just 

643
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,500
compounds. 
This natural ways that we are. 

644
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,199
And if so, does this Bitcoin fix
this or, yes. 

645
00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:58,000
Okay, good. 
I was at a CT fixes everything. 

646
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,900
So I want to, I want to nvk 
invite you down to my mother's 

647
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:04,600
basement with me and put on your
For hat. 

648
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,100
And I want to, I want to share a
theory that I've frankly, I have

649
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:14,100
never been, I've never been 
disproven on this, in the came 

650
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:18,100
up with this in 2014. 
So, in the eight years that I've

651
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:21,700
come up with this conclusion, I 
have yet to hear a counter that 

652
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,800
suffice to say, made me change 
my mind, we in America live in a

653
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,200
very religious country. 
We like to think we have 

654
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,200
separation of church and state. 
We do not, I believe, if I'm not

655
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,000
mistaken, Christianity is dumb. 
One religion in the world or 

656
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Catholicism, I always mix up the
two, not really religious my bad

657
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,900
either way. 
There are four signs of the end 

658
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:44,900
of the world as was taught to me
by an ex-girlfriend from years 

659
00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:47,900
and years ago, the first being 
some sort of natural disaster. 

660
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:49,900
Why do you think you hear about 
it different hurricane every 

661
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:51,200
year? 
Why do you think you hear about 

662
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,800
the tsunamis? 
That's the first of these four 

663
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,900
things natural disaster. 
The second being some sort of 

664
00:35:56,900 --> 00:36:00,500
crazy disease as far back as I 
can remember, like, covid is 

665
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,500
being covid, but do you think he
was this your horse? 

666
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,000
Bullshit new for her some 
bullshit. 

667
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,300
But yeah, it's really going back
to Egypt there. 

668
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,200
But, but, but bear with me now, 
dude, when I was a kid, like mad

669
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,900
cow disease is a thing. 
I remember not eating a burger 

670
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:17,000
for a while because they really 
OU mad cow disease. 

671
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,500
Like, I think I was like, six. 
I don't really remember much. 

672
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:20,700
I just remember, it was a 
theoretical. 

673
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:23,300
Jacob will fuck you up swine. 
Flu was a thing when I was in 

674
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,700
high school, like these weird 
diseases have always been 

675
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,100
around. 
I always picked up by the media.

676
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:30,800
So again a little bit weird 
little bit fishy. 

677
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,600
So that's number two. 
Number three, I believe. 

678
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:35,000
Leave him. 
I was taking his man. 

679
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,300
Fighting another, man. 
So like, that's why like you 

680
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,600
always hear War cover that 
happens, literally every day 

681
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,200
everywhere. 
That's the point. 

682
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,600
The point I'm trying to make is 
all of this stuff is happening 

683
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,300
all the time, but we get it 
reported to us. 

684
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,100
Every single day is oh, it's 
like this is it. 

685
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,000
This is the one. 
This is the end of the world and

686
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,000
they keep us interested in all 
of this information because they

687
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,700
gave us like the most doomsday 
scenarios and these religious 

688
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:06,000
Fanatics. 
And Were programmed into buying 

689
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,200
into this whole 
end-of-the-world. 

690
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,400
This is sort of going to be the 
final markers of it. 

691
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:14,100
Start to pick up on these Clues 
whether subconsciously or 

692
00:37:14,107 --> 00:37:17,500
intentionally and then they get 
tied into finding and getting 

693
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:19,900
updated more on the latest 
disease. 

694
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:24,200
Outbreak or the latest natural 
disaster here is an alternative 

695
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,600
view of this for you. 
So religious people actually 

696
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,100
were the people who fought 
against the most on on say 

697
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:34,400
covid. 
How covid-19 Was handled 

698
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,100
religious people look to each 
other to how they handle things.

699
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:42,300
It's almost like everyone has 
their cult and the stronger, the

700
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:45,100
religion, the harder, the cult 
bubble, right? 

701
00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:50,800
So they actually are lasting / -
to outside influence of news in 

702
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:51,900
my. 
Oh, that's interesting. 

703
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:57,100
So you know, when you see how 
all this shit is is like really 

704
00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:00,900
sort of like becomes crazy. 
It really is like the more 

705
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:05,900
atheistic sort of city dweller. 
That, that sort of Buys, in more

706
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:08,300
into the Doom and Gloom that it 
is, the people like I was 

707
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:10,300
saying, like, in for accepting 
the countryside who don't give a

708
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:14,500
fuck about going on in the week.
You know, part of the reason in 

709
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,600
my view on, why sort of like the
whole covid response? 

710
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,400
Was this absolute insanity is 
because, you know, the 

711
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,300
population, ask the politicians 
to handle it. 

712
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:29,300
People were screaming at 
politicians, telling them to 

713
00:38:29,308 --> 00:38:33,000
close borders, to do this, to do
that, to do mask to the you 

714
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,500
know. 
It was the people and because 

715
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,800
you have things like Twitter and
Facebook, you can actually reach

716
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,300
the politicians publicly shamed 
them that factly in a big way. 

717
00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:48,500
So they respond by I think I 
feel like the same is true for 

718
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:51,400
say for example, a money 
Printing and inflation generally

719
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,200
speaking, you know it's the 
population who wants to free 

720
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,400
shit. 
The the dairy Socratic sort of 

721
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,300
like ultra-wealthy, clasts, give
a fuck either way, they're going

722
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,200
to be fine. 
So in their view is like sure, 

723
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,600
gleave the believes, what they 
want, it's going to make my 

724
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,200
assets, go up to, but it 
wouldn't make much of a 

725
00:39:11,207 --> 00:39:15,800
difference to begin with. 
So if they want, you know, free 

726
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,800
credit to go by ten houses, even
though they can't afford it, 

727
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,100
sure give it to them. 
It's going to keep them from 

728
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:25,800
killing me. 
So, you know, the people have a 

729
00:39:25,808 --> 00:39:29,500
lot more power than they think 
that they do and they do 

730
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:32,400
exercise, the power is just it 
just happened to exercise this 

731
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,000
power in a terrible Direction 
because of sort of like this 

732
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,200
this compounding terrible 
incentives and Bitcoin fixes 

733
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,600
that I was like bring it all the
way back. 

734
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,300
Bitcoin is a religion. 
Bitcoin is the call that I 

735
00:39:46,308 --> 00:39:48,400
thought that's the direction you
were going to have no issues 

736
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:54,200
with being a part of a cult. 
Nicole to, hey, great. 

737
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,000
We were part of a cult now, 
wonderful. 

738
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:59,400
Now we follow logic and reason 
and no, no, okay. 

739
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,800
What is the most? 
What is the, most absurd thing 

740
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,400
bitcoiners? 
Do that even for by your 

741
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,700
standards? 
You're like, all right, this is 

742
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:11,300
a bit too far, guys. 
I don't know, man to each their 

743
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:13,500
own. 
I love that. 

744
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,600
That that's the best answer. 
I think that's true. 

745
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,000
We may have temporarily lost MBK
but for me it's definitely 

746
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,100
something ones balls. 
That's like a thing that the 

747
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,300
Bitcoin Community seems is like,
super important. 

748
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:29,100
I guess it's really like 
sunlight but man As a huge 

749
00:40:29,100 --> 00:40:32,500
contingent it's wild and BK, 
you're at your video or your 

750
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,900
audio is chappy, where you guys 
were? 

751
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:40,600
We said to the to eat, their 
comment, was beautifully, 

752
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,200
beautifully put but I I don't 
like beautiful. 

753
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,800
I like click baby shit. 
So I'm going to keep poking it. 

754
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,300
This are you gonna dye your hair
blonde? 

755
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,000
Like you read my mind bro. 
Damn yeah. 

756
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,900
How do you fuck was that? 
How you feel about? 

757
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,600
I don't want to say I don't want
to directly antagonize him but 

758
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,500
like fine on the narrative and 
the idea of to use their own. 

759
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,600
It how do you feel about people 
who spend time and money both in

760
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,800
this space as well as other 
crypto Ventures I have this this

761
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,900
huge sort of like a Fight Within
Myself about like I am a pro 

762
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:22,900
Freedom person, right? 
Like I want people to be free to

763
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:27,200
do whatever they want if it is 
to scam or to create scams. 

764
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,300
Ever right? 
And the market should settle. 

765
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,600
Those things. 
It's hard to reconciliate that 

766
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,200
on a daily life, right? 
Like it's like what do you call 

767
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,200
out? 
What do you don't call out? 

768
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,700
Why don't you just ignore? 
It's not my fucking problem, 

769
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,300
right? 
It's I don't have a resolution 

770
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,400
but that's sort of like, the, 
the constant, the constant, 

771
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,300
like, inner a battle of like, 
you know, what do you engage 

772
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:56,900
with what you do engage with? 
You know, in a way it's like, I 

773
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:01,400
rather did Tyrion, guys get away
with their bullshit security and

774
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,500
then have the state deal with 
them. 

775
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,900
But I'm not going to deny that 
there's going to be a lot of 

776
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,700
shutter for I'd have seen them 
like going to Jo to like you're 

777
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:11,500
going to be drinking it steers I
am. 

778
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:15,400
I am human right? 
Like it's like but like you know

779
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,600
I prefer no regulation and I 
prefer you know like sort of 

780
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,900
like this things being handled 
by the market including with 

781
00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:25,800
people calling Each other out, 
right? 

782
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,900
Like, one way in which the 
market resolves that is people 

783
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:32,800
screaming about how the other 
guys, the scammer to advise his 

784
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,100
neighbor's, right? 
That he shouldn't do business 

785
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:37,600
with him. 
You know, like vitalik was very 

786
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,500
crafty on how he always sort of 
like, create this narratives 

787
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,700
around bitcoiners like the Maxi 
thing was his invention because 

788
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:46,000
he started his Ponzi and we're 
all calling it out. 

789
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,200
So yeah, it's tricky. 
We're going to see a lot of 

790
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,000
people. 
Quit Bitcoin all the time. 

791
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,600
That's just how he Goes it's 
just that the money is just too 

792
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:02,500
sweet into in the scam. 
Fi like what is money bro? 

793
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:08,800
Like if you're chasing money and
you're going to Avenues that 

794
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,800
give you more Fiat or more shit 
coins like to me that's just a 

795
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,200
side that you don't actually 
know what money really is but 

796
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,500
that's just because I'm an 
arrogant piece of shit. 

797
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:21,900
Who read safety and spoke one 
time years ago. 

798
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,300
I mean, it's nice to have money,
you know, like that there is 

799
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:33,000
only so much, stoicism people 
are willing to have or do you 

800
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,500
know, like I think like 
flaunting and sort of like, 

801
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:42,400
going by Lambos pretty but like,
you know, having nice things is 

802
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,500
a nice thing. 
Yeah, I do think that there is a

803
00:43:45,508 --> 00:43:50,000
tendency to, like moralize 
business decisions in the 

804
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,400
Bitcoin community that I think 
is misplaced. 

805
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,200
East. 
I think, you know, for me, 

806
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,400
personally, and already has 
their own metric, it's about 

807
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,600
like, you know, not causing harm
to other people. 

808
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,100
I think, when people start 
promoting things that are scams 

809
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:06,200
that they, that other people are
going to get, like totally 

810
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,300
fucked over. 
That's really bad. 

811
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,100
But there is this weird 
disconnect like in the Bitcoin 

812
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:14,100
Community. 
It's like, you know, and I do it

813
00:44:14,107 --> 00:44:16,500
as much as anyone like screaming
at people who, you know, don't 

814
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,600
follow the sort of Bitcoin. 
Only Max baucus. 

815
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:22,100
Yeah, exactly. 
But at the same time it's like, 

816
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,300
oh, Like somebody owns stocks, 
that's cool. 

817
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:25,900
You know, like somebody's, like 
trading, like playing the 

818
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,000
market, like everybody's like, 
yeah, that's cool. 

819
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,000
Do your thing. 
So there are all these. 

820
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,100
There's a lot of contradictions 
in the Bitcoin community. 

821
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:35,300
That get really old after a 
while. 

822
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:37,900
But the thing is, there is no 
Community, right? 

823
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:40,500
Like it's like, there is no 
dollar Community. 

824
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:48,000
Yes, there is no gold, no, no. 
Bravo's proved that. 

825
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,800
There is a dollar community. 
Fuck you would have really been 

826
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,600
Jaco Island, right? 
Like it was just a hunting trip,

827
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,100
you know, if you ever have a 
chance real together, what is 

828
00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:00,500
it? 
Most dangerous game. 

829
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:04,600
No, the the creature of Jekyll 
Island. 

830
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,900
Fantastic McCrea. 
The creature from Jekyll Island.

831
00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:09,700
That is an amazing book, the 
fucking tomb, but everyone 

832
00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:11,500
should read it. 
I'm not saying I disagree with 

833
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,700
you pee, I just, I want to poke 
a hole in something that you 

834
00:45:14,707 --> 00:45:16,700
said or at least the way you 
presented it. 

835
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:21,600
Because to me, if you ignoring 
everything you say, Add after 

836
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,300
the when people start losing 
money and getting scammed. 

837
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,300
A lot of the presentation of 
that sounded to me, no different

838
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,500
than the way ESG is fed to the 
masses. 

839
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,100
This is for the benefit. 
This is for the best interest of

840
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:41,000
society for the environment, for
whatever subset, whatever group 

841
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,500
based on the Judgment of other 
people. 

842
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:48,300
I just, I mean, you know, humans
need thrust, right? 

843
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,800
Is inherent Human Condition and 
it's a It is, it's like it's 

844
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,600
essentially social efficiency, 
right? 

845
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,100
Like you cannot function as a 
person in society, or in a 

846
00:45:58,107 --> 00:46:01,600
family without trust, right? 
You have different trust levels,

847
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,900
different for us circles, but we
doubt it like, you don't go 

848
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,200
sleep at night. 
Your eyes open in case your wife

849
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,300
stabs, you, because she was mad 
at you earlier today because 

850
00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:13,300
he's big for yourself. 
I / something like. 

851
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,600
So you have trust, right? 
Like you need, trust you need 

852
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,500
credit. 
You need, there's many things 

853
00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:22,800
you need, right? 
To sort of to create stuff and 

854
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:29,300
in to live your life but like 
the issue is when sort of like 

855
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,000
you have essentially this scam 
artist, right? 

856
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,400
Like for example the CEO of 
cells is I mean like you look at

857
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:38,500
like how like they were selling 
their stuff. 

858
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,700
Yeah literally describes a 
Ponzi. 

859
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600
He's like there's that interview
is like safe and I think 

860
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,100
somebody else and tone you guys 
like you know we could pay 

861
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:51,700
amazing yields look. 
We take the Deposits from 

862
00:46:51,700 --> 00:46:53,800
person. 
A and we give it to person B. 

863
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,600
Oh God. 
I know I like that's a literal 

864
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,500
Ponzi. 
It's so fucking bad. 

865
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:03,100
I could talk about that, you 
know? 

866
00:47:03,100 --> 00:47:05,800
But the problem is like you 
can't save everybody right? 

867
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,400
Like and and people people were 
screaming about Celsius forever.

868
00:47:10,500 --> 00:47:12,600
You know, some people are 
looking for easy money, either 

869
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,100
because of greed or because 
they're just, unfortunately 

870
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:18,300
uneducated, you know? 
Like a hopefully people learned 

871
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:21,100
a lesson but like people clearly
didn't because I think, We're 

872
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:26,200
still depositing into Celsius to
try to, so I I went into one of 

873
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,500
the like those rooms that are 
like, you know, sell cscope 

874
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:31,700
rooms and I actually was a guy 
was I came in like all right, 

875
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:33,700
I'm gonna take some stuff when 
it's not some like fiery tweets 

876
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:35,300
about how. 
Like and I ended up just being 

877
00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:37,400
like this is so sad. 
I just left. 

878
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,500
I was like Jesus. 
Like these are like real people.

879
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:42,700
Like it's so depressing but 
here's what I want to do that. 

880
00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:44,300
Lets just the way from Max's. 
It's too fucking sad and 

881
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,200
depressing. 
I want to talk. 

882
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,400
I want to talk more about want 
to choose violence and BK. 

883
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,000
What are some things that That 
have happened recently that have

884
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,200
gotten you very like, irritated 
explore, actually excited. 

885
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,600
It could be positive 2. 
What's got you excited or 

886
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,100
Furious in the Bitcoin space 
right now? 

887
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:07,100
And we haven't yet talked about 
But their technological new. 

888
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,100
I mean it appear markets like 
like normally bear markets are a

889
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:14,900
lot of fun traditionally, you 
know, like you have a sacrifice,

890
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:19,600
you'll have a Blood Moon Rises, 
you know, you have like, you 

891
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,600
know, people sort of more focus 
on building and this this bear 

892
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:29,000
Market has been super cringe. 
It's super cringe and and sort 

893
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,400
of that that's kind of like 
annoying and so, you know, so we

894
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,000
chose violence, we are like, you
know, fuck all the shit we're 

895
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,200
just going to go build. 
So we're building a bunch of 

896
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,000
stuff. 
And and trying to sort of like 

897
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,400
focus on that. 
Yeah. 

898
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:47,700
I mean, you know. 
Yeah, it's just like, you know, 

899
00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:50,400
there is a lot of like bad faith
players that came into the space

900
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:57,700
as well you know like cold 
Moochers and other other things 

901
00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:59,500
like that. 
That's sort of like, you know, 

902
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:04,700
it's a bit of a, it's like, but 
but your point is a tale as old 

903
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:06,300
as time. 
It happens every cycle. 

904
00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:08,000
It happens. 
Even outside of Bitcoin is just 

905
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,800
a constant. 
Well, that's yeah. 

906
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,700
That's that's the cycle, right? 
And and you know reality is 

907
00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:16,100
right like Bitcoin was a cozy 
thing. 

908
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:21,400
The last bear Market is a cozy 
tight knee, you know, like 

909
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,100
smaller space you have you know 
like this different sort of like

910
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:28,900
types of bitcoiners that do 
their thing but you know, this 

911
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:31,600
last cycle became very 
mainstream, right? 

912
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,300
So you're going to start having 
a lot of normies coming in. 

913
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,000
And did that whole commercial, 
the Super Bowl ad. 

914
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,800
There you go, educate people in 
that commercial and I think 

915
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,600
that's just a path. 
I mean like Bitcoin is going to 

916
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:47,500
grow much more and all this does
nerdiness around the money. 

917
00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:51,600
All the our Maxi or talk 
Orthodoxy and all these things 

918
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,600
are going to get much more water
down. 

919
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:57,300
And because that's how things 
grow, right? 

920
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,400
They water down. 
You know the Internet Was the 

921
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,600
Same BBS is were awesome. 
There was a certain way of being

922
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,200
on the internet and, you know, 
they know It became, you know, 

923
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:11,200
like people sharing pictures of 
their meals on Facebook, right? 

924
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:17,100
Like that's far from like, you 
know, gifts on bbs's, right. 

925
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:19,900
Like so so yeah, I mean, it's 
just pay, you know, that's not 

926
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:22,900
such a bad thing either, right? 
I mean, it's just more people. 

927
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:24,900
Using the thing that is meant to
be used, right? 

928
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:29,900
Like there is no stick on the 
Bitcoin like protocol, right? 

929
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:31,900
There's nothing there to says, 
what kind of meal you have to 

930
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:34,300
have a religion have to have or 
anything, right? 

931
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,300
If you read The so no lines of 
the code. 

932
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,200
I see. 
Clearly only eat me sound your 

933
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,300
testicles. 
I mean eventually everybody 

934
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:46,800
arrives at that if they if they 
go the Bitcoin Road and then I'm

935
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,100
not kidding. 
That enlightened unfortunately I

936
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:53,200
will say there was a space is 
like I don't know if I can feel 

937
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,800
like years ago now where I was 
messaging. 

938
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,300
You like it bro. 
You gotta get in here. 

939
00:50:56,300 --> 00:50:58,700
You know, we're talking were 
talking cool shit and you were 

940
00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:00,000
like I'm so sorry. 
I'm busy. 

941
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,400
And you sent me a picture of 
like your crossbow and you were 

942
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,600
like I'm hunting moose that's a 
damn. 

943
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,800
That is a flex extreme. 
My parents would never. 

944
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,700
Let me have a crossbow but they 
would let me shoot guns that 

945
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:13,100
were like, crossbows are too 
powerful, what the fuck, but 

946
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:15,500
actually, but so I want to hear 
more like, what are, what are 

947
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,300
you actually? 
What are you excited about in 

948
00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:20,100
the Bitcoin space? 
What new developments what 

949
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:23,000
protocol improvements or 
projects or companies that are 

950
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,700
out there are, do you think are 
actually interesting? 

951
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,500
Yeah, so there's there's too 
much fucking going on in Bitcoin

952
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:33,900
right now. 
That's why we, you know, even 

953
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:38,100
started that that The positive. 
Oh no, I'm losing you. 

954
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,300
If you podcast because like I 
just needed a place to sort of 

955
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:45,600
like find a put together, a list
and going over. 

956
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,900
What's new? 
And the hey can you try turning 

957
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:51,600
off your camera? 
Okay, he got Jennifer video 

958
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,300
there. 
Yeah, is the batter even your 

959
00:51:54,300 --> 00:51:57,100
image is pixelated, that is 
better. 

960
00:51:57,300 --> 00:51:59,000
Keep going, keep going. 
All right, so you're saying you 

961
00:51:59,008 --> 00:52:00,900
started the podcast. 
Yes. 

962
00:52:00,900 --> 00:52:04,500
So that I could keep track of 
projects and, and you know this 

963
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:07,400
this week, like the the list is 
monumentally. 

964
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,800
Huge. 
So, there is the Fed mint, which

965
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,300
is like a champion server thing 
so that he can have like, you 

966
00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:16,000
know, it's different. 
It's a different type of trust. 

967
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:18,500
Yeah, let's talk about that. 
So, take us through some of 

968
00:52:18,508 --> 00:52:19,000
those things. 
Things. 

969
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,500
So yeah, that and yeah I need to
read more but it's essentially 

970
00:52:24,500 --> 00:52:27,800
just like like imagine like a 
little Network that has a 

971
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,900
central entity that controls the
the system, but but all the 

972
00:52:31,900 --> 00:52:35,300
transactions are private. 
Kind of like a side chain. 

973
00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:37,400
Let's put it this way. 
It's not really, but what else? 

974
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:39,800
Oh God, I can actually open the 
list here. 

975
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:41,500
Yeah, do it. 
I want to, I want to hear from 

976
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,000
you like, Hang on. 
Let's see here. 

977
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,600
Too cute. 
What's got you super excited in 

978
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,100
the Bitcoin space? 
There you go. 

979
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,400
Got it. 
Sorry guys. 

980
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,000
Did you get that cut off there 
again? 

981
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,700
Now you get your IQ gone. 
All right, so there's the new B 

982
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:05,700
TC server version electron 
private server for 30, you go 

983
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:10,200
from nunchuck, released a video.
Now using tap signer, tap signer

984
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,000
is our new harder wallet. 
It's like a blind sign or NFC 

985
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:19,700
card so you just stop and and 
you sign transaction in the 

986
00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:21,600
card. 
So that's, that's really cool. 

987
00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:24,200
Zoos have a new release Block 
Street. 

988
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,500
Is really easy aggregated, 
signatures that are non non 

989
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,500
interactive, just kind of nice. 
So that means you're going to be

990
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:35,700
able to do a kind of aggregated 
signature that you don't need to

991
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:38,200
have the devices all online at 
the same time essentially. 

992
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,100
So that he you have multiple 
signatures between them. 

993
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:43,100
Wait, what are the implications 
of that? 

994
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:49,200
So, so far all the solutions 
that were around required 

995
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,300
everybody to be on. 
Like, imagine kind of like a 

996
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:55,000
multisig for example, right? 
Imagine if everybody I had to be

997
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,400
connected at the same time to do
the multisig in a group. 

998
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:00,900
That's both a security issue, 
right? 

999
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:02,600
Physical security. 
Because now everybody is 

1000
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,700
essentially exposed, you know, 
when everybody is going to have 

1001
00:54:04,700 --> 00:54:08,500
to be signing and then it 
creates like technical issues, 

1002
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,400
right? 
Because you have to have the 

1003
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,900
connection between all of the 
devices together the same time. 

1004
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:16,500
So this solution essentially 
removes, the need to be to be 

1005
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:19,000
interactive. 
So like he's just like each 

1006
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,500
party does their thing once. 
I don't know, if it's in order 

1007
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:26,300
yet to have it. 
Read the paper It essentially 

1008
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:28,700
streamlines that and aggregate 
is signatures that, these are 

1009
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:32,600
semi aggregated signatures they 
help with privacy because he 

1010
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,200
could put a bunch of signatures 
together. 

1011
00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:38,700
So it looks like one also have 
not read enough there to know 

1012
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:43,200
too that what extent they go in 
that direction because it's semi

1013
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,800
aggregated. 
I want to know which part to see

1014
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:46,300
me. 
Yeah. 

1015
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:48,900
So like, you know, but this is 
these are all sort of like very 

1016
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:52,000
cool, a sort of your things. 
Apparently, silent payments, 

1017
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,800
which I have not read much about
it is also 0 Out. 

1018
00:54:54,800 --> 00:55:01,600
And oh, what's his name? 
Oh gbtc He released a yeah. 

1019
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,200
Marshall he released a little 
board for you to overclock your 

1020
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,500
how I saw that. 
I'm so excited. 

1021
00:55:08,100 --> 00:55:10,000
Oh my God. 
I mean, did the list is, is 

1022
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,400
insane here. 
So here's one thing that we 

1023
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,300
talked about, we've talked about
the past around snore and 

1024
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:19,100
Taproot the recent, you know, 
upgrade to the Bitcoin protocol.

1025
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,500
So we talked about the idea of 
threshold signatures. 

1026
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,700
So you know, multisig being the 
idea that basically with multi 

1027
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:27,100
segment, we're going to talk 
about a little bit with Craig 

1028
00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:29,400
raw. 
You know, we Had you have like 

1029
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,100
two of three signing devices 
that have to basically sign a 

1030
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:36,800
transaction in order for you 
know it to be valid and mind 

1031
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,700
will block right. 
But with threshold signatures 

1032
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,100
the analogy that you always used
was like you can have less 

1033
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:45,600
secure devices that basically 
contribute. 

1034
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,700
Let's say less to the actual 
transaction. 

1035
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,700
It's a terrible analogy. 
But where are we on threshold 

1036
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:54,000
signatures? 
Okay. 

1037
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,600
So think about it this way, as 
standard Bitcoin signature is a 

1038
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:01,300
like a Is essentially like a 
signature in which you're 

1039
00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:05,100
compounding each signature. 
But think about it this way, you

1040
00:56:05,100 --> 00:56:08,400
have a piece of cord and you 
make three knots on it. 

1041
00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:10,700
So those are the three 
signatures and then you toss it 

1042
00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:13,200
to the network and everybody in 
the network can see the three 

1043
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,300
signatures on it. 
Right. 

1044
00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:18,200
Everybody knows what's going on.
We trashed Show signature is is 

1045
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,300
more like a pie? 
So from the outside looks just 

1046
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:27,200
like a pie, a covered pot, okay?
I'm I am deciding there and 

1047
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,700
being like, it's a high end of 
story. 

1048
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:34,200
Yeah, but then inside of the pie
you define the threshold is it 

1049
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:39,000
just a quarter of the pie? 
Is it a fifth of the pie and 

1050
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:44,000
each part of the, the little 
bits of pie inside can be 

1051
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:49,700
defined by you as well. 
So how much a pie piece is sized

1052
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:56,500
So yeah, so you have essentially
like a lot more definition of 

1053
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:00,500
like the size, the weight of 
each piece, right? 

1054
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,900
And how much of the total do you
need? 

1055
00:57:02,900 --> 00:57:05,600
And from the outside because 
it's a linear signature. 

1056
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,000
Now from the outside, it looks 
like a single signature. 

1057
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:12,000
So you don't know that there 
were 10 signers or one signer. 

1058
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,500
So the idea is that you could 
have as I understand you could 

1059
00:57:16,508 --> 00:57:20,300
have less secure devices like 
you could you could use a phone 

1060
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:24,200
as a contributor to threshold 
signature scheme and you would 

1061
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,000
just give it a smaller slice of 
that pie. 

1062
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:28,400
Is that that's right. 
Yeah it's a good thing because 

1063
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,100
if somebody gets the little 
piece doesn't matter. 

1064
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:34,100
Yeah. 
And there's like, you know, if 

1065
00:57:34,100 --> 00:57:38,300
the pie I've has to add up to 
100%, then you know, you'd have,

1066
00:57:38,500 --> 00:57:41,700
is it accurate to say that you 
have multiple devices that in 

1067
00:57:41,700 --> 00:57:45,000
some would be more than that 
hundred percent but essentially 

1068
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,200
your 300. 
Yeah, you exactly would that 

1069
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,800
matter, right? 
Like but why 100%, why don't you

1070
00:57:49,808 --> 00:57:51,400
just make it? 
Fifty percent of the pie? 

1071
00:57:52,100 --> 00:57:54,300
It's all you need for making a 
signature, right? 

1072
00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:56,500
So it's for making a valid 
transaction. 

1073
00:57:56,500 --> 00:57:59,600
So then you can have a phone. 
That's just like a third and 

1074
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:00,700
then you can have another 
device. 

1075
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:03,900
That's let's say you have a cold
car doing 2/3 and a phone that 

1076
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:06,900
does 1/3 So, where are we with 
that? 

1077
00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:11,700
When there is, there is no, 
that's called mu Sig. 

1078
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:15,000
Instead of multi sick and most 
Sig. 

1079
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,100
I don't think there is a speck 
yet. 

1080
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:20,700
Let's put it this way for most 
back yet. 

1081
00:58:20,700 --> 00:58:23,300
It's very complicated 
cryptography. 

1082
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:26,400
And start to put you on the 
spot. 

1083
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,200
But can you what is the 
difference between music and 

1084
00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:33,500
frost? 
I thought, oh, I don't, I can't 

1085
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:35,800
remember. 
A frost is not at the top of my 

1086
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,400
head. 
Got it. 

1087
00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:40,500
Our, where should we go from 
here? 

1088
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:42,700
What else are you? 
Have you been thinking a lot 

1089
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:46,000
about in the Bitcoin space? 
What's come up across your desk 

1090
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,800
that? 
Has caught your your fancy. 

1091
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,400
I like simple things. 
So I think that the nunchuck 

1092
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,200
wallet that Hugo is making is a 
big deal because the allows for,

1093
00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:01,900
if you're old enough into space,
you would remember while it 

1094
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:06,600
called copay Did then got bought
by bitpay and then it was 

1095
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,800
destroyed. 
It's essentially collaborative 

1096
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:14,100
multisig that does not have a 
centralized entity, right? 

1097
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:18,800
I mean, you might still use 
nunchucks servers just a way of 

1098
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,500
doing the message routing 
between them but is encryption 

1099
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:27,900
to it's easy to be encrypted and
so end-to-end encrypted and and 

1100
00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:30,500
I think eventually you'll 
probably be able to run your own

1101
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:32,700
server kind of thing between the
parties, right? 

1102
00:59:33,900 --> 00:59:37,400
Having multi-party multisig, 
that's like very easy with. 

1103
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,800
Like just a tapping NFC card is 
is super powerful, especially 

1104
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,500
for small businesses, and sort 
of like this centralized entity 

1105
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:47,000
is very like, say for my 
company. 

1106
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,700
We don't have an office. 
Right? 

1107
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:51,800
I'd be back by magazine, doesn't
have an office if I remember 

1108
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,400
right either, right. 
You guys have a look at these, 

1109
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,700
you know, nobody's there right 
now. 

1110
00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:59,500
The team is is huge and Me, 
Kate. 

1111
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:01,900
Let's just, let's keep pushing 
this narrative though, because 

1112
01:00:01,900 --> 01:00:05,600
they're keeps being this. 
Godforsaken reason to force 

1113
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,100
people to show up to the 
physical office that we have. 

1114
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:11,200
And I'm not a fan of this, in 
any way, shape, or form, right? 

1115
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,500
What else we make? 
Can you, can you define that you

1116
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:15,900
just use a term that I want 
elaborative multisig? 

1117
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,100
Yes, yeah. 
Can you can you talk about km 

1118
01:00:18,100 --> 01:00:19,800
multisig? 
What that means and how that is 

1119
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,400
different from traditional 
multisig. 

1120
01:00:21,900 --> 01:00:23,600
Yeah. 
So like technically speaking is 

1121
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,300
the same but in practice, the 
difference is that different 

1122
01:00:28,300 --> 01:00:32,200
people have different keys. 
So, in normal, multisig, just 

1123
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,400
for yourself. 
You are the We'll have all the 

1124
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,200
keys, right? 
So you have a Kia home, you have

1125
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,500
a key in a different country and
you have a key. 

1126
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:41,700
I don't know like under the 
ocean somewhere, right? 

1127
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:44,600
And then if somebody tries to 
attack you at home you don't 

1128
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,000
have all the keys, there's 
nothing you can do right? 

1129
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,100
But that's just you 
collaborative. 

1130
01:00:49,100 --> 01:00:51,600
Multisig just means multi-party 
multisig, right? 

1131
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,800
So it means that, you know, I 
have a Kiki, you have a key P, 

1132
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,000
have a key. 
If we want to send a 

1133
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,700
transaction, I send you guys a 
message, encrypted in the zap 

1134
01:00:59,700 --> 01:01:04,500
saying hey I want to send, you 
know, $10 to this To this dude 

1135
01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:07,800
who has a funny meme, right? 
And then one of you have to 

1136
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,400
approve it, I mean saying that 
is the two out of three kind of 

1137
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,400
wallet, right? 
But like making that move is not

1138
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,600
easy, right? 
And then and then there is also 

1139
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,800
like the type that is like Casa 
or and chain, do where they're 

1140
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,300
essentially just one of the keys
but you are still capable of 

1141
01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:25,700
transacting without them. 
It's just it's just different 

1142
01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:28,400
variations of who has control of
keys. 

1143
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:31,500
I it's a very very needed thing 
in business. 

1144
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,800
Like you have to have an 
operational all That you have 

1145
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,500
more than one person sign and, 
you know, it's super useful. 

1146
01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:42,400
Make sense. 
Make sense. 

1147
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,000
Yeah. 
What other projects are? 

1148
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,900
Like super cool right now? 
Because I got a, I got a 

1149
01:01:46,900 --> 01:01:49,400
different question for you, if 
you entertain me. 

1150
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:56,000
So, you two are far, far more 
technically inclined in advance 

1151
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,400
than myself. 
And the truth is, as we continue

1152
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,000
to onboard more and more people 
were more likely to get more 

1153
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,300
people who are like me and less 
and less people like you and 

1154
01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:08,200
pee. 
I'm a big believer in the 80/20 

1155
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,900
principle that of 100. 
Users, 80% will not really 

1156
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:16,000
understand or know what they're 
doing about. 1% will understand 

1157
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,500
the nuances. 
I am deathly afraid of opening 

1158
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:23,000
my called card, not really, but 
like it's it's been set aside 

1159
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,100
for a period where I have six 
hours that no one is going to 

1160
01:02:26,107 --> 01:02:28,000
bother me. 
So I can actually like really do

1161
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,800
this properly at what point are 
these trade-offs, something that

1162
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:36,300
we're going to have to really 
assess to further on board the 

1163
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:38,600
masses. 
And I'm not saying this in a way

1164
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,500
to say, like, your coal carts 
up, cool car. 

1165
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,300
It is in my opinion, the best 
option out there for Cold 

1166
01:02:43,300 --> 01:02:46,200
Storage but I also worry that it
can do. 

1167
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,200
I totally get it so yeah, no, 
no. 

1168
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:53,800
It's a very fair representation.
So so in my view as we move from

1169
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,300
a few hundred million people 
using Bitcoin to a few billion 

1170
01:02:56,300 --> 01:03:00,800
people, using Bitcoin first is 
you can't save the majority. 

1171
01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:03,000
Right. 
Coin is not for everyone. 

1172
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:04,700
Bitcoin is available to 
everyone. 

1173
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,900
It's a very different, very, 
very different thing. 

1174
01:03:08,900 --> 01:03:13,700
The majority of people will have
Bitcoin in centralized entities,

1175
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:15,600
right? 
Because you'll be easier, it 

1176
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:20,000
will be cheaper, and you come if
insurance and you will have 

1177
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,100
other sets of trade-offs, right?
Is it terrible? 

1178
01:03:23,100 --> 01:03:26,800
Yes, absolutely right. 
Is it going to be, you know, a 

1179
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,000
lot of fraction reserved. 
Yes. 

1180
01:03:29,300 --> 01:03:30,000
Right. 
Do. 

1181
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,400
Are we going to see a lot of 
them feeling? 

1182
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,500
Yes, but it's not going to go 
away, right? 

1183
01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:37,600
It's just that's just the 
reality, right? 

1184
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,700
Like of of how things are you 
know the internet used to be a 

1185
01:03:40,700 --> 01:03:42,900
lot more decentralized. 
Everybody is to run through her 

1186
01:03:42,900 --> 01:03:47,500
email server and there you know,
like IRC server and everything 

1187
01:03:47,500 --> 01:03:50,100
and then even IRC became fully 
centralized. 

1188
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:52,800
There's like, two massive 
players and that's it, right? 

1189
01:03:53,100 --> 01:03:56,600
And and IRC never actually 
further into where it was 

1190
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,700
supposed to go, which were as 
the Federated where did servers 

1191
01:03:59,700 --> 01:04:01,900
would talk to each other, he 
failed that way. 

1192
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:07,100
So it's just because the 
friction Versus the risk versus 

1193
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:09,800
the game are just not there in 
value, right? 

1194
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:14,900
Like because, you know, reality 
is, you know, through Modern 

1195
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:17,200
History, the majority, the 
people don't lose their money at

1196
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,100
the bank, right? 
Even though there are events, 

1197
01:04:20,100 --> 01:04:23,100
there are, you could be the 
sucker that does, you know, in 

1198
01:04:23,100 --> 01:04:25,500
most Western countries like 
people still have their money. 

1199
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,800
I got mine taken in Brazil but 
like it's Brazil. 

1200
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,500
So people will make different 
sets of trade-offs, in Brazil, 

1201
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,300
you know, and there is a reason 
The reason why I like people put

1202
01:04:36,300 --> 01:04:40,700
their money in in all this 
yield, stupid places where they 

1203
01:04:40,700 --> 01:04:43,800
give you like, you know, a few 
percent on your Bitcoin because 

1204
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,600
it all you're getting a few 
percent of their Bitcoin. 

1205
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,300
And they're used to institutions
not running away their money in 

1206
01:04:49,300 --> 01:04:53,600
a lawful country, right? 
So, you know, so my point is a 

1207
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,300
lot of the Bitcoin will be 
centralized. 

1208
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,300
I don't think we can get away 
from that. 

1209
01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:01,100
That's just reality. 
I mean, you look at the amount 

1210
01:05:01,100 --> 01:05:04,000
of Bitcoins inside coinbase is 
huge, right? 

1211
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:08,000
It's only going to grow. 
So we should accept understand 

1212
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,600
that and trying to improve that 
and try to get more people away 

1213
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:14,700
from that. 
Now the other part is, how can 

1214
01:05:14,700 --> 01:05:18,900
we make the people who do want 
to save themselves who are not 

1215
01:05:18,900 --> 01:05:22,900
necessarily in the 20% rate, in 
the Pareto Principle there say 

1216
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:27,100
they are in the 70%, right? 
Or even the 60% we could we can 

1217
01:05:27,100 --> 01:05:30,100
help them at least a part of 
their funds are so you know, 

1218
01:05:30,100 --> 01:05:32,400
phone wallets are going to be 
huge, right? 

1219
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,900
So people are going to have 
their seat on a phone wallet. 

1220
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:38,500
The His phones are fully fully 
pound, right? 

1221
01:05:38,900 --> 01:05:42,600
Anyone can can like at the 
airport they can copy and get 

1222
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,000
into your phone. 
They stick in a little machine 

1223
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,200
and they'll get your data out. 
They might not be able to do it 

1224
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,700
right there and then but they'll
send it to a lab, they'll get it

1225
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:51,900
out. 
So, so phones, you know, but 

1226
01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:53,400
it's still an improvement right 
now. 

1227
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,900
He needs to be say law 
enforcement, that that is the 

1228
01:05:55,908 --> 01:05:58,100
one who takes away from you is 
not just some dude on the 

1229
01:05:58,100 --> 01:06:01,300
street, you know, and then you 
know what we're trying to do. 

1230
01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:04,800
Now, the, with us with the top 
signer is, you know, can we make

1231
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,400
a harder one? 
Wallet that sub 50 dollars so 

1232
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,200
that your phone wallet doesn't 
have the private keys or it has 

1233
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:13,800
just half of the multisig of the
private keys. 

1234
01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:17,100
So that further improves that 
and it's just a tap, there's 

1235
01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:20,200
nothing else to do. 
There's no screening is cheap. 

1236
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,600
And you know, maybe the the 
Quorum is enough that if you 

1237
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,200
lose it it doesn't matter. 
You just send it to a new wallet

1238
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:29,700
start again and then harder 
wallets per se. 

1239
01:06:29,700 --> 01:06:32,500
You know, they are improving the
software is improving and 

1240
01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:35,200
getting easier. 
I don't think they'll ever be 

1241
01:06:35,900 --> 01:06:41,500
Easy in a way that like the sort
of like the the straw man of 

1242
01:06:41,500 --> 01:06:47,400
easiness exists because it's 
similar to a computer or you 

1243
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,200
don't you don't run your own 
email server. 

1244
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:55,300
If you do not know you do ground
between running your email 

1245
01:06:55,300 --> 01:06:58,900
server or not, run your email 
server or you do it yourself and

1246
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:00,900
nobody runs email server because
the fitting ass. 

1247
01:07:01,300 --> 01:07:07,700
So I think we'll continue to 
happen is large economic actors 

1248
01:07:07,700 --> 01:07:12,900
in Bitcoin, in a lot of plebs 
will run their own nodes and 

1249
01:07:12,900 --> 01:07:15,500
continue to solve validate and 
keep the networking check, 

1250
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:17,400
right? 
Because otherwise Bitcoin fails 

1251
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:23,500
miners will 100% run their own 
nodes because for them it 

1252
01:07:23,500 --> 01:07:25,300
matters even more. 
Which Fork, they're spending 

1253
01:07:25,300 --> 01:07:28,900
their energy into right, you 
know, developers will do the 

1254
01:07:28,900 --> 01:07:32,800
same. 
So there is enough incentives 

1255
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:37,000
for enough people to maintain 
the network safe and have good 

1256
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,300
Solutions and you keep on, 
improving the solutions, right? 

1257
01:07:40,300 --> 01:07:43,000
So like, you know, called card 
offers a certain set of 

1258
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,200
trade-offs, but then for 
example, you know, maybe once 

1259
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,900
something's a little bit easier 
that you have to trust the 

1260
01:07:48,900 --> 01:07:52,300
vendor, then maybe you go to 
something cheaper, like a 

1261
01:07:52,300 --> 01:07:54,200
ledger, right? 
Where it's closed. 

1262
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,300
Source. 
You're trusting them pay. 

1263
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:59,200
No, it's a competent, some 
reputation, eat, you can put all

1264
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,400
the shit coins you want in it, 
right? 

1265
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,400
And that's the value proposition
in there and people do go there.

1266
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,000
I mean it's one of the ones that
sells the most but you know 

1267
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,200
shoot a Bitcoin ER that have 
real Bitcoin. 

1268
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:15,700
Do that no right and and and and
people do as they sort of go 

1269
01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:18,200
through the rabbit hole, they 
doing stink tively find their 

1270
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,600
way, right? 
I always joked like Ledger is my

1271
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,399
best sales funnel. 
People learn how to use a card 

1272
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:26,100
wallet Ledger Then the fire code
card and then they keep their 

1273
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:28,700
shit coins on their Ledger. 
You know, the majority of the 

1274
01:08:28,700 --> 01:08:32,600
people will have sequins. 
It's not going away, it's only 

1275
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,399
going to grow exponentially from
now, right? 

1276
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:38,399
Because every scammer, or every 
person who doesn't know, he's a 

1277
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:41,399
scammer yet is going to want to 
create their scam because it's 

1278
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:44,600
just too easy. 
It's zero friction scamming. 

1279
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,100
So so so those scamming markets 
will grow to. 

1280
01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:53,800
And and, you know, it would take
like, you know, it took like 

1281
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:57,200
gold as well like to 3,000 years
old in terms of like more like 

1282
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,100
human history using gold as a 
store of value, right? 

1283
01:09:00,100 --> 01:09:04,399
Like, you know, The dollar is 
now 100 so ears, right? 

1284
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:12,000
Actually more and You know. 
I think it's just more options, 

1285
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,100
the world of have more options. 
A lot of options Will Fail Hard 

1286
01:09:16,300 --> 01:09:19,500
in the coming years because of 
the amount of shitshow, if, you 

1287
01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:24,399
know, modern economic theory, 
but the tools and Devolution of 

1288
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:28,800
Bitcoin tools who follow sort of
like a traditional sort of way 

1289
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,500
in which technology evolved 
like, how cars used to kill 

1290
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:35,200
people by just going over a rock
and you jumped out until we 

1291
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,500
figure out you could use a seat 
belt and you can have airbags 

1292
01:09:38,500 --> 01:09:39,800
and all this stuff and now you 
can go ahead. 

1293
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,500
In 40s do not die. 
You know, like, you know, 

1294
01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:45,000
electricity is to kill in your 
house, like they have this 

1295
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,600
amazing pollsters ball, high 
electricity kills, right? 

1296
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,800
So and people still don't 
understand how electricity 

1297
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:55,500
works, like, most people have no
clue how the lamp turns on, 

1298
01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:57,900
right? 
So but it does and they trust 

1299
01:09:57,900 --> 01:10:00,600
it. 
So and do they have their own 

1300
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,400
power generation at home know? 
Maybe, maybe we will and 

1301
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,000
batteries, get better. 
But anyways, in this whole 

1302
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:11,700
convoluted explanation, my point
is. things will evolve as the 

1303
01:10:11,700 --> 01:10:18,400
market requires it, you know, 
like, We sell to like most 

1304
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,500
bitcoiners, right? 
And most bitcoiners I have no 

1305
01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:24,700
issues with the device and 
teaching their families and 

1306
01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:27,000
their kids, and their 
grandparents or whatever, right?

1307
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,000
Like somehow they all figured 
out. 

1308
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,500
So I think as the feedback loop 
in the marketing proves, you 

1309
01:10:33,500 --> 01:10:36,500
know, new products will come 
out, we will improve and sort of

1310
01:10:36,508 --> 01:10:40,400
like just slowly but surely 
things just keep on going. 

1311
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:43,500
In this scenario that we're 
talking about though. 

1312
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:48,800
Will there in your opinion ever 
be a point where Bitcoin that's 

1313
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:55,800
held by like individuals could 
maybe trade at or be valued 

1314
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,000
higher than Bitcoin? 
That's held by some third party 

1315
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,700
custodian. 
If we know go down some path, no

1316
01:11:02,700 --> 01:11:05,800
no, maybe now in scale because 
of friction, right? 

1317
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,900
And sort of like, the efficiency
is not there. 

1318
01:11:07,900 --> 01:11:10,900
Be coin, is a very sort of like 
inefficient Market. 

1319
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,600
I mean, look at Price Discovery.
It's two guys in a dog trading 

1320
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,800
right now, and they can dunk the
price, like, twenty thousand 

1321
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,100
dollars, right? 
No, not three dogs. 

1322
01:11:20,100 --> 01:11:22,000
It's two guys know, right? 
Exactly. 

1323
01:11:22,500 --> 01:11:24,900
Nobody's Sally. 
I have not met a person who's 

1324
01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:26,500
selling, right? 
Like, it's like, you look at the

1325
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:28,900
volumes of the exchanges 
pathetic, so it's just like 

1326
01:11:28,900 --> 01:11:30,700
inefficient price Discovery, 
right? 

1327
01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:36,900
So, so, yes, it's just that. 
I don't think if there was a 

1328
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:41,300
difference in price for that 
same you T, XO with the same 

1329
01:11:41,300 --> 01:11:43,400
style ability and the same 
fungibility. 

1330
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,200
I think Bitcoin would fail, 
right? 

1331
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:48,700
I mean, that could be a small 
premium here and there depending

1332
01:11:48,700 --> 01:11:51,300
on the country you're in, right?
But like if you if you just sort

1333
01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:53,800
of like if you average out 
right? 

1334
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,600
Because you know maybe you live 
in a country where you know is 

1335
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,400
super heavy-handed regulation 
right against free Bitcoin. 

1336
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,700
Let's put it this way and 
capture Bitcoin so maybe in your

1337
01:12:04,700 --> 01:12:07,600
country there will be a premium 
but like if you travel to 

1338
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,500
another country to spend the 
Bitcoin you'd be normal price. 

1339
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:17,100
Like it's just a really depends 
on like we are, you are, but I 

1340
01:12:17,108 --> 01:12:20,700
think he averages out. 
Q unless you have any other 

1341
01:12:20,700 --> 01:12:23,400
questions. 
I think at this point we'll wrap

1342
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,700
it up and BK. 
Thank you so much for joining 

1343
01:12:26,700 --> 01:12:28,700
us. 
I want to give you the last 

1344
01:12:28,700 --> 01:12:32,300
word, where can people find you?
Where can they follow you? 

1345
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,200
And after they actually check 
out your new podcast, right? 

1346
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:39,700
I mean, you can find me on 
Twitter at nvk. 

1347
01:12:39,700 --> 01:12:44,100
You can check out our products 
on koat.com and yeah. 

1348
01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:46,400
Go listen to the new pod. 
And if you have new projects 

1349
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:48,500
that you want to highlight it, 
that's the whole goal of the 

1350
01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:53,100
this podcast is just reach out 
on bitcoin dots review. 

1351
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,100
That's the domain. 
Thank you again so much for 

1352
01:12:55,100 --> 01:12:57,400
joining us. 
Thanks for having me, guys.