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platform. How's it going, man?
Good. How are you?
Thanks for having us. Yeah, excited to chat a little
bit about Block Stream and J Plus today we have Rich here up
on stage. Hey, Rich, good morning.
Good morning. All right, I think we got
everyone here, so we are ready when you are.
Awesome. See Rich here, Drew and then we
have the block stream Jade account as well.
Who's who's on the Block? Stream Jade account here.
Hey everyone, this is Barshak. Can you hear me all well?
Hey, Barshak, Good morning. Awesome.
Good morning to you. Cool.
Let's kick things off here. I know Adam back is currently in
flight. He may be able to join us later,
but nonetheless integrate experts up here on the stage.
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon.
Every guys are tuning in. I'm Alan over here from Bitcoin
magazine going to be chatting through lock streams release of
their J Plus device, which was appropriately launched on the
16th anniversary Bitcoin's genesis block before diving in
to jade plus for anybody new to the space, obviously block
stream needs no introduction. There's a formality.
Block stream is a leading Bitcoin infrastructure company
dedicated to advancing the Bitcoin ecosystem with cutting
edge cryptography, open source technology and user centric
solutions. Adam Back, their CEO is a true
pioneer in the Bitcoin space, known for his invention of hash
cash approval work system that laid the fund for Bitcoin.
Before we get into J Plus man, I have to acknowledge it's been a
whirlwind of 48 hours. Got to mention the hardening of
Ross Ulbricht last night. Certainly an exciting moment.
Extraordinary mode not just for Ross and his family, but for
Bitcoin and Bitcoin advocacy. So shout out to Ross, to the
team and the block stream team up here.
Before we get into the Vice, would love to get your thoughts
on the freeing of Ross. It's just kind of an ice breaker
here. Where were you when you heard
the news? What do you think this signals
to Bitcoin when the stands to the current administration?
I was in my kitchen cooking some late dinner when I heard the
news on Twitter. It was awesome news to hear and
actually the first thing I did was re listen to the talk that
you guys had at one of the Bitcoin conferences.
I think it was 21 or 22, very emotional speech that he gave
over the phone pre recorded and man go Ross, go him and go
Bitcoin. Drew with the same person except
that was cleaning dinner or clean up after dinner and I put
the same talk on Bitcoin 2021 I believe it was and Ross was
speaking from prison really powerful speech there and just
super exciting. You know it didn't happen.
Maybe it happened day one. You know, the 1st 24 hours as
skeptical, hoping it was going to come through and you know,
after seeing that happen, I have a lot of confidence and hope in
this administration and being able to, you know, achieve the
rest of the the things that they put out to do.
Yeah, finally. I was also with my kid and the
speech definitely gave me tears. I was mostly happy for my kid
and the future. I'm so excited for what's next.
It was a really great, great step towards more advocacy.
Yeah, super exciting moment last night.
I hope Ross gets the well deserved rest that he has
earned. And you know, there's a funny
meme going around saying that you know how terrible Trump to
condemn Ross 21 years of libertarian and Bitcoin podcast.
But I hope people give him a second to rest.
Super happy for him and his family.
But into getting into the crux of the conversation.
They definitely want to talk on the release of your guys's
latest advice. J Plus.
Good place to dive in here. What better than what J does?
It's a security device, self custody device.
Let's chat. Some security features start
open question to the panel here. What are some of the must have
security features that bitcoiners should look for in a
hardware wallet and how does J Plus meet or exceed those
standards? Yeah, I can kick this off here.
You know #1 we all talk about, you know what Bitcoin is open
source, and I think that's the first thing you want to look for
in your hardware wallet, fully open source device software,
hardware. You want to make sure that the
device is doing what it says it's it's doing, that you can
verify the firmware that you're running on yours is the same one
on the code base. But there's also some other fun
things you can add to specifically for Jade.
Plus, we added a hardware check to make sure that the device was
indeed manufactured by Blockstream and not some sort of
clone that looks similar that someone else was trying to ship
to people maliciously. So we have a really cool feature
there. You pair green, you pair green
and Jade together, or you can use our web app if you're a
Sparrow Nunchuck user using other companion platform and it
actually has jade sign a challenge to make sure that it
was indeed manufactured by block stream.
So again, open source is important.
You want to make sure it's doing what it says it's doing.
I think Bitcoin only is also important just so you can have a
smaller code base. You can have engineers focusing
on keeping your Bitcoin protected and not focused on too
many other things. That's always good to have.
And then another fun feature with Jade, we have Anti X will
support one of the two wallets who does have that.
And that kind of protects you against the anti, it's called
Anti X fill protects you against the dark Skippy kind of attack
that was popular this summer where someone could slowly
extract your private keys over enough transactions.
Yeah, I think overall, make sure device is open source.
You can make sure it's doing what it says it's doing.
And then look for some of those extra features as well.
Maybe I can add some color from a user experience point of view,
too, because I drive our design and UX research efforts.
You know, in Bitcoin custody, there are a lot of complex
security practices, a lot of jargon, a lot of concepts that
users need to wrap their heads around.
You know, see phrases, backups, pass phrases, Pins, air gap
security practices. These are all really great, you
know, security protocols and best practices that users should
follow. Well, yeah, with J Plus, we aim
to kind of simplify the experience without compromising
on all of these security features.
So we made sure that, you know, the experience is simple for
novices while still, you know, keeping the advanced features
and the more complex security features still accessible and
discoverable by the advanced users.
So I kind of like the whole versatility and kind of it's the
way J Plus adopts itself based on the users kind of familiarity
with the technology. You guys mentioned the, the, you
know, one of the key features of J plus being adaptable to, you
know, the end user and wherever they're at in their Bitcoin
journey, whether they're new to Bitcoin or experts.
You guys have obviously had a lot of experience creating, you
know, other devices as well through those learnings.
You know what are some common miss practices for new users who
are looking to custody of their Bitcoin for the first time, and
how does Jade make that easier for them?
Yeah, you'll see a lot of users, you know, we have this term
wallet in the industry that I think has gained too much
traction when it shouldn't really be there.
And so people have a hard time understanding where their keys
live or what exactly keys are or why do I need to connect my
hardware wallet to a phone, things like that.
And so you see a lot of confusion of people just, you
know, creating a seed phrase on a mobile app, then putting that
on their Jade, for example. And so we try to make that
easier by having a dedicated companion app block stream
green. So when you open up green,
you're directed to set up your jade.
We have a nice set up flow there for you.
So you're kind of understanding that this device is paired with
green and the funds that you see on green are not they don't
exist on green and you know, it actually exists on the
blockchain. But that's a whole another story
of the kind of beginner confusion.
But we do allow users this really nice setup flow.
They can pair their jade with green, make sure they're not
putting their seed phrase somewhere dangerous.
Make sure we are letting them know, you know, don't screenshot
this, don't put this on your iCloud backup or whatever.
This is a, you know, seed words. These are your Bitcoin here.
And so we try to guide users through that and let them know
about the pitfalls along the way.
New listeners here and a new Bitcoiners here.
Could you walk through a little bit of what Blockstream Green is
and how it's compatible with J? Yeah, Blockstream Green is our
dedicating companion app for Jade, Jade and Jade.
It was originally just a mobile wallet with a basically your
seed phrase lives on your phone. We have a really cool encryption
scheme that allows it to not be easily extractable if we use
something called a blind Oracle to keep the decryption keys off
your device. So that's maybe a little more
technical of a discussion there. But Long story short, yeah, the
block stream green allows you to have keys on your phone so you
can easily spend from your mobile wallet, no extra device
needed. And then block stream Jade comes
into play by being this kind of extra piece of, you know, this
extra hardware, this extra thing of it piece of information that
you need in order to spend funds.
So that would be the separate device that you pair to block
stream green to allow you to connect to the Internet.
Hardware wallets are extra secure because they have small
attack vectors. They're not directly connected
to the Internet. They're kind of their own thing
specifically designed just to keep your Bitcoin private key
safe. And so when you connect to
green, you now have an access to the Internet.
Bitcoin lives on the Internet, so we need some sort of access
to that. And so green allows you to
generate transaction, generate transactions, generate receive
addresses, allow people to send you Bitcoin without needing your
hardware wallet. And when you're ready to spend
those keys that live on jade compared to green and like to
send funds. I want to quickly circle back to
some earlier comments made about threats and attack factors and
how Jade can protect against that.
I know you mentioned certain features like Secure boot, anti
X fill and even genuine check. In your guys's opinion, you
know, what are some of the top attack factors that you guys
have seen in your experience and perhaps maybe dive a little bit
deeper into, you know, secure boot, anti X fill continuing
check and how these features differentiate from maybe other
potential competitor wallets in the space?
For sure, yeah, Secure Boot basically allows us to make sure
that the firmware that is running on your J device is
signed by block stream. So it's firmware that our team
is signed off on the same firmware that you can view on
GitHub and see the exact block stream Jade code, making sure
it's doing, but it says it's doing.
It's not leaking your keys in any way.
Yeah, Secure Boot there. Make sure that the device is
running what you want it to be running.
Genuine check allows us to inject keys into the E fuse of
your block stream. Jade sounds technical, but it
basically just means that Jade can sign a challenge presented
to it by block stream and that says these keys were put on here
by block stream, same as a private key on your Bitcoin
wall, for example. You can't replicate it and we
could. That allows us to to prove that
the device was made by us. It's not some clone someone's
trying to trick you with to steal your funds.
Some other things that are a little bit different, like I
mentioned, anti X fill only jade and bit box offer that it's a
little bit of a technical attack, but in theory, someone
could slowly extract your private keys over time.
And so block stream green and block stream jade work together
to randomize this information allowed not to be the attack
allows you to kind of send the same knots over and the light
slowly extract private keys and so green and jade work together
to make sure that's not the same knots.
It's randomized and kind of avoid that.
That attack Dark Skippy is the popular version of this.
Said dark Skippy was something that kind of came to light was a
popular attack earlier this summer.
What are some of the signs that someone just performing that
attack on maybe you know, your device or on you?
I don't even know if that's the technical right there, but it's.
Yeah, right. I know this stuff gets technical
and maybe above the scope of this, but people can do clever
things, I think. I don't know if this is exactly
dark Skippy, but one of the things that could maybe happen
is your hardware wallet is asked to sign the same transaction
twice. And you got to make sure that
the firmware is made kind of catches that for you.
But there's ways that you can sign transactions in a weird way
and slowly extract private keys through this method.
And yeah, that's just one of the things that anti XFL does is
make sure that first of all, we don't allow this to happen in
the 1st place, and also that we catch things if they look odd.
So not it's, you know, that's why it's so clever.
It's because it's hard to detect by people.
It could just be slowly over time signing random transactions
that you would be sending anyway and align them to get key data
from that. I wanted to move into expanding
on Jade versus Jade Plus. You know what sets Box Stream
Jade apart from other hardware wallets in the market today?
And then how does Jade Plus build upon the original Jade
model? If you don't mind Rich, I'll
take this. Go for it.
Oh, the Jade came out in 2021. It was Block Streams little pet
project to showcase that you could cold storage liquid
assets. Liquid's a side chain.
We don't have to go down that rabbit hole today.
So block streams ethos is pretty much open source everything that
you possibly can. And while they followed through
on the hardware wallet, as Rich has mentioned multiple times,
Jade is completely open source that from the firmware to the
hardware itself. So if you don't want block
stream to make the Jade for you, you can get off the shelf parts
at online for whatever 20-30 bucks and you can make your own
Jade, which is really cool and really easy to do.
But when you do that, you don't get like some of the cool things
like a camera or a battery. But again, we don't need to talk
about that now. So as I mentioned, Block Stream
came out with the original Jade into 2021.
Over the last couple years, we've really ramped up
production and sales and marketing around the Jade.
And with that, we've heard more and more features that customers
have wanted. So they wanted a better camera,
They wanted a better screen, bigger screen.
They didn't like the scroll wheel that was on the original
Jade. And so over the years, we've
been taking all this data in and we've been saying, all right,
what's the most important thing that we need to tackle?
And the first thing was bigger screen.
We need a bigger screen. People were having a tough time
scanning QR codes on the Jade and they were having a tough
time actually scanning QR codes with the camera.
So the Jade Plus has iterated on the original Jade.
The original Jade will still be sold and supported for the time
to for a we have no end date in mind for the original Jade.
And the Jade Plus has, as I mentioned, a bigger and brighter
screen, a better camera. A it comes in a metal body that
you can have attachments now. So people were complaining about
that. You can't upgrade the original
Jade's firmware totally air gapped with the new Jade.
You can with the SD card. With an SD card or we're selling
a new product called the Jade Link.
It's a USBC storage. You can upload all the firmware
onto that device, plug it into your Jade, upgrade your jade.
It takes less than 10 seconds to do.
It's pretty slick actually. I think I said everything.
Did I get everything guys? Maybe we can also talk a bit
more about the form factor as well.
So the new form factor is definitely much more powerful.
Also new better metal material improvements.
Also new interaction models, you know, with the form factor, with
the larger display and you know, facilitating better tactile
buttons, simple buttons to provide at the end of the day a
much more intuitive and responsive user experience too.
That also led to better navigation and user experience,
again for users. Yeah, the form factor, the
device looks very slick. For those who haven't seen yet,
we have pinned up in the the Nest here just the release
announcement of the the Jade device and and that you can see
a video of the device itself looks very sleek.
One of the better looking devices that I've seen out there
doesn't necessarily just like AUSB stick, which I'm sure is
more enticing to, you know, users who are exploring whole
storage devices. I know you guys mentioned
briefly in there, you know, one of the one of the big
functionalities and big aspects of the NUJ devices, it's air gap
functionality. Certainly a highlight, you know,
for users you might not be familiar.
Could you explain what air gap means and why it's, you know, a
crucial component for Bitcoin security?
Yeah. So the air gap, the term there
is used for a lot of different things in the computing
industry. But in the way that Bitcoin
hardware, while it's used the term, it essentially means that
you are in control of all of the data being sent to or from your
hardware wallet. And so we do this in the form of
QR codes or also files on, as Drew said, Jade link or the USBC
accessory, or you can use a micro SD card similar to how
other devices do this. And so if you ever want Jade to
have data sent to it, you're not connected via USB cable or
Bluetooth. You're solely saying scan this
QR code. This is the only data I want you
to consume. And so in a lot of sense, you
could say, well, now I know there's not anything malicious
being sent because in theory, I could audit that QR code.
I could look exactly at the file.
People are not gonna do that every time they sign a
transaction. But in theory, you know exactly
what data is being sent to or from your hardware wallet, which
could be a security improvement. I will note that because QRSD
can be a little finicky, I mean just having to go back and forth
between the device. Obviously nothing's going to be
the Bluetooth connection. Even though Jade is amazing at
both QR and SD, Bluetooth is just automatic right away.
Same with USB cable. No need to point your Jade at
the screen, the message just happens.
And that way we can allow something like anti Expo.
As I mentioned before, to do that same process with QRSD
cards, you have to do multiple rounds of putting the SD card in
and out of your computer a few times to make sure that this
anti Expo procedure works. Air gap is awesome, and if
you're going to out of the data, that's really cool to be able to
do that. But as with everything in
Bitcoin and in life, there's trade-offs and benefits to every
kind of communication method. One topic we haven't gotten into
yet is the multi signature and it's, you know, for I guess
maybe not the beginning user, but the more intermediate and
advanced user who has a significant amount of Bitcoin
wants to spread out their risk. You know it's a.
It's a important feature to have.
How does Jade make setting up a multi sig setup accessible for
people? Yeah, I mean with block stream
green, again you can use Jade with any companion app out
there, Sparrow, Nunchuck. But with green specifically, we
have a built in kind of beginner like multi sig where your seed
phrase doesn't become the single point of failure.
You can very easily add a 2FA method to your account to where
Block Stream holds a key and you hold the key as well.
This does not mean Blockstream can spend your funds, we just
offer this service as an extra challenge to whenever you want
to spend. So if someone finds your seat
phrase in your house, they also need your two FA method to be
able to spend. The cool thing about this is
after one year, Blockstream's key is no longer need to spend
funds. So if Blockstream were to
disappear for whatever reason, you could still spend with your
Jade after that period of time. So that's kind of the more
beginner multi sig, which is awesome because it's accessible
to everybody. There's not really much you have
to learn just to a fake code sent to your phone.
Everybody's used to that. But more generic multi sig
setups. If you're using Sparrow, for
example, a two of three, three of five, that allows you to
create multiple seed phrases which you can disperse
geographically or put them in different places and again, gets
rid of that single point of failure.
One of the main pitfalls here is people think that once you have
three of the five keys, then you can always spend, but that's not
necessarily the case. You could lose the backup file,
which basically tells you it's kind of the treasure map to your
Bitcoin vault. The three of five.
And you need the minimum number of signers, like a three of five
S, three of the five keys, and the backup file if you're gonna
spend just with those. So if you've lost that backup
file, it was on your phone, your computer, you got a new device,
you actually still can't spend even though you have the
required number of keys and block stream.
Jade makes this really easy because we allow you to backup
that file directly to the device.
And so as long as the block stream Jade is within your multi
sig QUORUM, you can restore that backup file.
And you can still spend with the three of five or the two of
three, whatever you had as the minimum number, which is really
cool. And I don't think everybody does
that. So just one extra way to make
sure you don't lose funds in this really cool advanced
feature that protects people, but it also, can, you know,
offer some new technical pitfalls.
For someone first getting started with implementing a
multi sig setup, do you guys have any resources on hand that
you could point people to and that you know?
What would you recommend? Yeah, we have a few help center
guides. Obviously it's really easy to do
in block stream green. You simply go to add account and
you pick multi sig shield, which is our kind of beginner multi
sig method. So that's super easy to do.
We also have some more generic multi sig resources on our help
center. And then obviously there's the
tutorials out there from from Ben and lots of other people
showing people how to, you know, walk through this.
So plenty of stuff out there and I can link to some things as
well in the chat. Yeah, please do and I'll make
sure to call out those links in the description post call.
And yeah, I think, you know, any resources you guys have is super
helpful. You guys have been in the space
for a long time, so definitely recommend reading through them.
Couple of other points I wanted to bring up here, but you know,
you know, J plus clearly, you know, places a lot of emphasis
on user experience. You know, we talked about the
larger display, talked about tactile navigation buttons, how
have user needs overall shaped the design of the device?
You know how is that evolved the form factor?
No one wants to take it. I'll go again, Bishak.
Sorry, I was on mute. Yeah.
So yeah, we really put community front and center.
And we have a pretty dedicated group of users that are always
very willing to send us feedback, share feedback.
And we invested a lot of time and effort in, you know, doing a
lot of qualitative research, conducted a lot of in depth user
interviews to kind of dive into, you know, challenges, major pain
points. And also did a lot of kind of
discovery research work on different form factors,
materials, textures, and, you know, along with that different
interaction models and, you know, different also feedback
mechanisms. So, yeah, through all that kind
of research, our community support kind of research
efforts, we iterated, we kept also the the process quite open.
And yeah, through also a very collaborative kind of work
across products, design, engineering and marketing, we
were able to land on, you know, the right form factor as well as
the right user experience and interaction models.
Could you just curious, you know, if there were any specific
pain points that were common that you guys addressed with
this latest model? Maybe not even just, you know,
block stream devices, but just devices overall.
What are some common failure points that Yeah.
Yeah, in the previous version, for instance, you know some of
the buttons scrolling deals weren't necessarily adorable.
You know, in our first version, we had the not scrolling deal to
navigate through different screens and tasks.
So we got some feedback over time that that wasn't
necessarily a durable. So we kind of went back to the
whole drawing board to find alternatives for how to
streamline that process with the right tactile buttons.
So we kind of replaced that scrolling wheel with buttons.
So that was one, another one was also, you know, along with the
larger screen, we wanted to make sure that we we're also paying
attention to accessibility, larger display, more contrast,
more legible kind of menu. So that was also an improvement
as well compared to our first version.
What am I missing guys? Yeah.
I would also say the camera was loved by people.
You know, we shipped with the camera, but we didn't offer the
QR air gap transactions until a couple years after that.
But we still, you know, hadn't totally thought through that in
the first iteration. So we had a pretty small screen
on the resolution wasn't able to be, you know, super high.
And so on this new device, we made sure to build that screen
out so QR codes could be displayed and captured easily by
a laptop camera, which is not as good quality usually.
And that you'll see some from some of the reviews coming out
that that's the first thing a lot of people say is wow, the
camera is amazing. They really listened on this
one. So I think that's a a big pain
point that I think we solved. It's great to hear.
I know we've chatted in depth about a lot of, a lot of topics
here. Lastly, wanted to touch on maybe
upcoming features. I know a couple were mentioned,
but any updates that you could share that would further enhance
Jade plus experience, you know, or its integration with you
know, other tech stacks? So with the Jade Plus, we're
pretty pumped that there's attachments that can be attached
with Jade Plus. So the first attachment that I
mentioned earlier is called the Jade link.
And as I it's just a USBC storage device that allows for
air gap transactions and firmware upgrades.
We are looking at other attachments that we could bring
to the Jade Plus. The first being a keyboard, full
QWERT keyboard, right when we release it, there was more than
one comments that said when keyboard or where keyboard and
we're like, well, we can make that if you want.
I guess we're going or not. I guess I know we're going to be
asking the community here shortly, what attachments should
we make for the Jade Plus not we're not trying to make a cop
out answer here, but we want to make what people want to use.
This is a challenge to the community.
Make it hard for us. Bring it on.
Awesome guys. Well, want to open up the floor,
maybe potentially anything I didn't ask that might be worthy
of sharing with the audience. And then to close things out,
you know, we'd like to hear from each one of you, you know, what
you're most excited about in terms of, you know, Bitcoin
developments upcoming this year. I know you guys are sponsoring
Bitcoin 2025 later this may, So maybe any you know, insights
into potential announcements that block stream may or may not
have made yet as well? Well, at our booth, everyone
should stop on by. There's going to be a lot of
block streamers there and we love to shake people's hands,
hear what you have to say, or just talk generally about
Bitcoin. As for the Jade Plus at Bitcoin
2025, you should definitely stop by.
There's going to be, we're working on something cool that
we could do with the Jade Plus to make them a little more
customized, but we can't give away all of our cards right now.
Reach for shock. Any closing thoughts here?
Maybe we can also kind of have a quick kind of sneak peek, add
potential new accessories that we are planning to add to the
mix to kind of enhance some of the tasks.
But let's kind of keep it a bit mysterious at this point.
Yeah, I think it's going to be a big year for self custody.
You see a lot of cool platforms that Jade's integrated with
Nunchuck doing some multi sig Taproot things.
You have all the mini script platforms out there, Anchor
Watch with their insurance, insurance platforms.
So a lot of awesome financial use cases being built on
Bitcoin, and I think we're just going to have even more this
year. So excited to make sure Jade is
integrated with each and every one of them.
Awesome. Well, Rich Bashak, Drew, I
really appreciate the time today.
For anybody tuning in late, this basis was recorded, so it'll be
available immediately here on X at the conclusion of the space.
And then we'll also make sure to upload on wherever you guys
catch your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, all the such.
Make sure to check out their device link up here in the Nest
and make sure to only buy from block stream as well.
Avoid third party vendors like Amazon.
Don't want to get scammed on those ends.
Thank you everybody. Hope you guys had a great
morning. Thanks all.
Appreciate it. What's up Bitcoiners, Bitcoin
2025 will be here before you know it.
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