They do not show behaboral the pression they do not show what
we call negative affect they don't show bad emotions the only
why the you can tell of we're some controll as being us is the
two notas one is stimulasis present it in x behabor last
like we to a card and when it's take in AI im expehator more
like we to a card and i have i have a very interesting
experience because and a form. Where it was not going to be a
popular message. I get a präsentation about a
person control. Welcome back at another Episode
of Kynotalk bei Kynotalk. And again i have a new guest
this time obviously again in english so.
Auf English ja ononglee ononglee a possible.de.de fair
lompleline.de vue en francais oder on deutsch auf Deutsch.
Schöne compronpa ne lets just talk English.
Ok, ok, I'm going to I'll drop a little german and french and
have you now to get just. For shore, just for.
You just to you try to make people thank I'm smart and also
to try to really to your viewer. You are Franco Phone or German
Speaker. For shore for shore, so actually
that's a cool thing or a listening community is growing
and also moring or a people from french speaking.
Countries are joining so we see this in the statistics and
obviously is we have the we have the bias that french people also
italians what not like to learn english because they just are
very proud of the ron culture and language, but i see the
younger generation obviously is changing is interessed in other
people, speaking in other language is so there.
More and moralcoming in to our show.
I am's very interest is biging other language is unfortly.
I am there's stupid in language is so what language is I've
learn i have forgotten but i tryed.
The upiesly a few of us and i think your and i will.
Introducion in a minute, you're one of do's people who obviously
understand a lot of the language of dogs and keynines so it will
be very interesting to to go with you through the question
there and some of the topics to do such just it yourself, so now
for the business, you're already hurtim the man of the hour dogs
is do it hilliard i hob but pronouns your Sir name correctly
we met. You weeks of you monster go when
i had the pleasure of being invited to loss to california
centurosa at Michael Ellis, place bei Cameron Ford, and we
we went for dinner one day with all the guys you you when there
because you had the big symposium, the the canology
symposium that last it for a wecore something 5 days.
And i was just air happy in off and lucky in off to to meet you
and allist lead to find out about you for sure you're name
has been listed and present hear and there when i was talking to
friends and kollegs from all or europe and from the us but
interesting in off i or obviously my education.
So far has been more to european trainers, so if been after
european Trainers and not bad much in the us working dog
community accept of Cameron because i god to learn about
team from the podcast and and so one so I've try to find out more
about yourself. Sins I Thot the first morning of
chronology that i was able to this and because then i have to
catch my flight back to europe and was very interesting and i
already. For Oh you II forgot it you came
the part of the Symposium i's. Go Yes II choit and choit the
the first morning and for sure i already could pick some of the
the the things that michael and you.
You at presented there also style of presenting that i
thirties very interesting and some some of the informations
and and use i phot of verry. It's you here the cursing.
I love but about you a love. Of a cursing.
At the General really so feel free the curs in all language is
that you know. All try to keep a clean sobal
sobal. So that was that was a coolfing
no realian choi that and axually already i like the the the road
of paper that you put on the world just to all kind of notes
there and and to to summarized to the questions of of the
audience and also to to at some. I don't know what els you that
true out the week, but i i'm already copy that and i just
start to to at workshop. To hang on my my portable
whiteboard and and people kutchers at some questions in
the breaks and and sharers on, falls so that we would not it
los them for out the the progress, but that's not the the
point so i didn tick me long, so i found this introfers of
yourself at Kane and Training system so i will.
I will also for dislink to to the show notes and of corse i
did not just read about you on the web.
I also listent to the podcast that you did all radials with
Cameron and i I've all that's very interesting because believe
it all not you're in you're in a very good shape, but you do this
longer that i'm old so and that's that's so impressive so.
It it's. It's it's one of my messages up
if you if you for get be for in raption you it's one of my
messages about dog training is that if one treats it not just
as a physical skill, but also a right of engaging in electually
in a very diffical and deva like something that that's part to do
i if you engage it with it in electually it's something that
you can develup in. A cross suspend of your time and
neverlus interest and you're participation and you're
interest in Dogs. It may change it probly will
change, but it's something that compelled me first compelled me
one i was about tony y'ars all and it's still compelled me and
that's one of the things that that i tride to get a cross to a
special. The junger people who are
interest in and Dogs. Is it, this is something that
can norish you for out your life?
It's something that you can state interested and you can
devela personal. You can devela physicaly and you
can devela in olexually is for and interest in dogs and that's
what i call what i do kind of logy it's because it's go a
hobby it's a part of my identity and it's something that's form
me and it's person of me what chalages and defits and sexes
and all kind of things and i still one a do it you know what
is some i do it? Well, it's it's a wave if it's
like me know lifestyle. It's it's a lifestyle and and
it's a it's a life on calling. I don't know if you're viewers
will know what we mean in English by calling, but
friendsance people who are religious or called to
there'rocation it's something that they that they feel
committeed in terms of there's spirit to doing and some times i
feel a third of a calling in my interest in dogs.
And it's mic sense that mic sense at at lies at lies for
meed does and you will interested right bevor and who
are liesn as are. But that's the.
For for a second, so for sure i don't know all of them, but i
but i know some of of different backgrounds or with different
backgrounds and mostlisteners are obviously from german
speaking countries, so Germany Austria.
Switzerland but also is guten. Tag Allah, Allah, Sportfreunde
und und Hundespecializen. Verinize verinize and also what
people from from USI think I think US is listed third place,
it's like germany's witzaland US.
Oh so, i was wondering about that i if a lot of other
american's what's see this surfu with be stricklay stricklay
you're PN kraut. No no and since if also invited
not only cameron, but pat nolan and dan from Australia, pat
steward and and and. Oh dem it if for got the his
collix name. Ja, das gefällt mir auch.
Ja. Oh man, but i do a nevermind,
nevermind and of course people from various im European country
so i love to see how how to community is growing and and
these people are from agencies so there from the working dog
side, military or police there from customs, but also from the
sports world. Sins for example, Chris my
kolleg at the company, his origin was in Dog sports so was
Mine Mine was in the Rescue, Dog Sport and beedians his was in
schutzhund and igp and so i thing there is the big group of
business and also from regular dog trainers like pet dog
trainers or companies like hours who tryed to.
Locate themselfs in in this market of of Training, working
dogs and corporating with agencies, but also with the
civil site and also if you in German, i call them
anspruchsvolle Hundehalter. Was White US auf Englisch.
That that means anspruchsvoll means oh them it, i have to i
have to look to up. In english that means chalenging
or demanding pet ones, but not in a in a negative way so they
they really one and they there're not haveing in noth
with just a reading of you books about how to to make the dog
clean and and clicker training they want to find out more and
what what what abilities dogs have and how want we can in for
them and i think. That's a in english in English,
we call is people series. It's the we're us series series.
It's a series that's on 7. One i like to german better
challengeing i like i like. Yeah because they challenge
there trainers right and they're not stoping askinquestions and.
And they challenge them sells, which is a refrains to what I've
a minute go you know, it's what that's what it is about dogs and
dog training is it challenges you if you engage me that.
It challenges. For for.
And if you for try hard, you develop and if you bekommen
technicly good, you're dard of elops to.
So you've start it quite early as IA learned and being a dog
Trainer also training a schutzhund club what is funny
for rust that you that you guys call the schutzhund and not just
protection dog so you you're when with the german you then
translate but sons good. So, the funny think is when we
german speaking people talk about the American schutzhund we
have and tright to pronocit like americans to so it's it's not
german pronociation. And we we all of all of US.
I don't know it's still the case, but when i begin in dogs
for we, i identified very haveely.
With the german Aspekt of this german form of Dogs Board, so we
tride the learn the language of cors.
We call the shithon because it was it was an item of european
culture, we we're acute the counches that it was european
culture and we want to embrace the european part of it especi
the sport france ship the attitude sorts the breeding of
dogs, the preseration of the funkionality is dogs.
Um so we that in just to side, we like the spor, we do side it
that we'd like the european asbesti the german approach to
to breading keeping and being responsible for and save
guarding a bread of dos so of of course like we we used.
We us german commands we us german expressions on the
training feel do's that i's who could learn is much training
feel you know ausbildungsplatz deutsch do's your finance we
learn is much german for the training feel is we go.
That's impressive and you travel to europe you.
I think you right to train yourself and educate yourself in
Europe also you go to no to the french ring and Belgian Ring.
I flirrend that you've be one of the first if not the first.
I don't know I think Cameron got that in to my hit one of the
first. If not the first people who
imported belgion medanwar to to do us.
I was in early, i was in early importer very smaller was of
dogs, but i was in early importer.
You're and that's that's haveing a future impact obviously on the
in the working dog world in the sports world, but you're not
only. A Trainer and and a dog
enthusiast a canologist also your a scientist, so you're stud
it a lot about this and i've you can help me out now and and tell
allismers what you've been studing a parts from training,
dogs and and really god your hands on the dogs because right
now you're in charge of the militar working dog program.
Is is it all i think. Ja, ja, ja, so so, all give You
all give you my Bree for aogathy How I got here i bekam
interested I'd see my forstog and i tride the train i was for
tener's all and i have the booking one Hand and I tok
delicion the dog in the other and i trend and i tride the
train the dog and then later one i was about nine tener's all i
talk my mother in two bying a german shapered dog.
And we bod a german shopper go from a german brida, a brida, a
german shopper dogs from the as we a germany i've back to the
acurion topage so my for stock was acurion topage from from
Carl fillers breeding ok and a really a really good dog and so
in between twenty years ofage and thirty years ofage i Train
professionaly i train Pet dogs i trained in Clubs.
And also i was trained a breaking to police dog training
and being a professional and sofort and then but it the
sametime II so the one of they will the story i was tell is and
my backhard so from all the bike work i did with dogs and I'm
very toll and kind of them and not very strong.
I so so my backstarter to Herd I'm not in the last.
I can't do this all my life you I know you is my brain to make a
live. And also i bekam Interestid and
Behaviour one. I was a little kid i want to be
a that or narian and so was interestent so allogy and
biology and sofort and then one i was and i really twonies I'd
bekam much one interestid and behaviour.
And also where of my wigness is as i student like organ at
chemistry was a problem and cauculus was also operate so it
was is your for me to go to school as a psychologist and
when i was about thirtears of of age i want to grady with school
which is. The way are system works as you
get an under you go a high school and then you're finish
high school and your bateeners all then you go to on under
gragio it. University or College and you's
the get a two or for you're to be and then if you're locky and
and you're workard you can get in to agradio a programm in my
kase was agradio a programm for psychology and so i when there
for a here's because i was think in my time and then no what i
one of the be one i go up and so i want to the psychology agradio
with school at the University of Texas at Austin.
And what the eventually put on my diploma behavioral nuro
science, so that's Behavioral nuro Science.
What just just a fancy Trump for studing the learning of animal
so i got a phd in the learning of animals in about nineteen
nine year and a medity one for to work for the us government in
a working out program for as a reserture.
And then later as it do you're not a transitions.
I can what i call a production guy so for many years, my job is
not bin to do scientific research is just bin the produce
dogs to to make dogs for the us government and then this is the
point it which i just say. That i apeer here in my private
capacity, i do not represent the positions of the policies of the
us government in anyway, i just represent my on personal
opinions on in the topic what's so every and what i do right now
was i're going to breading programm for dod to per do is
walking dogs for the military and then also i'm quite active
and what we in englisch call a side hustle what is basicly
taking. Providing high quality agication
about learning and behavor to series kunalog and and dog
trainers and enthusias like yourself and other people hopely
around the world and so what i try to do is to bring some
objektive objektivity and some science and some perspektive to
many subjekts that interest all of us that have to do a dogs
training the FX of dog training the FX of valfare.
The FX of Walking Dogs, the FX of Company Dogs, the technical
practices of Training Dogs so fit in to what in English, we
call the invalues that they must behaviory in order to be what i
call joyful and joy, bringing for the owners and for mamers of
society of mamers of our of our society.
Ok, and we will get. Kloser into the topic of your
side hustle that i think you also share with michael and and
forest first of what to ascue the the shortcut dod what's that
about what does that mean? Oh, I'm sorry Department of
Defence. Ok, that's the dod.
Ok, ja, ja, ja, Grate Grate what i what i read like about your
selfy about you is. I don't know you know people
people are haveing to of. There's first impressions when
when meeting so i think we have some nice short chats and when
being at the at the dinner but that's.
What was, it's was some peru and or's.
I'm. In America but was reading was
reading, I'm good beer unfortunity ice the ice Shop was
closed, I remember of the what's what i like the watching the
videoclips that michael has just shared when you're decoing his
his young dog. So you're still doing this
you're not just and leaning back and playing the the professor
and and writing books which is impressive but you're still line
on the ground and and and enforcing a full grip and and
and playing and screaming and trank to do to do the veripest
how not do you enjoyed is or why or you still doing this.
That's like aski me why starter go.
The same reasons part of it is part of it is the connection to
the dog that you have when you participate with the dog in
conflicts and when you work with the dog to make am strongger and
when you work with the dog to manipulate his muts and ttm how
to use his muts part of it is the.
The physical aspect of it it was my at that export one.
I was young to put on the sue and the orquad biting Dogs so II
do it for the sameries and i did it before that's actually a very
diffical that's that's a profound question and a diffical
question to answer i get's alternity what the answer is it,
it is it, it's an expression and my identity to.
To engage with a dog, i don't know there all kinds of ways of
geting close to a dog to have the dog you're like sid with you
on the couch and lush television.
It's one way to get close to a dog i know the way to get close
to a dog is to do engage to obidians we're you in the dog
mic very close contact if you do good we're.
And another way to make very plus contact with the dog is to
engage in a social conflict with her and and i was like to i was
like to. I think for me, no will II was
not poting myself into the biding world for for.
A long time because II just did out of things right i will i
grue up i start it in the am surgeon Rescue Community.
It's back them. I also worked as a paramedic for
the austrian red cross, we don't have a paramedic system, but
it's the easies to translated and three at the years like out
to know the chris who was also at the vienna police and and
responsible for the dog training there.
And i if all was one to to no what it feels like to bing bing
bitten right if and do is just there is leaf or in a in a in a
suit, but i think it's a very interesting experience, the very
first few bites that you take. It brings you it brings you very
close to the dog and also it brings the dog very close to
you, there's no and there's a few was a talk about it but.
Many years a go, i have a conversation with a frended my a
french friend who's name, a jommichel morro and morro was a
high level decoy who played at the cup of friends in the suit
and i think the really adies and he and i we're talking about a
dog, a vico, the turonvets who was AA trumindesty part byder
and also a dog who. Who dominated the on the tuck,
the decor like it just the dog hat his way with you and and
jomi shall to me of orfany story because he was he was bitten he
he findly hat is chance to work in a sue at the cup of France
and he was ver exided and he train like he what running he
did colomiters and is sue to get a special submade it was his
time, it was his they bue. He was you know, it was it was
it, was is big dick and about a week.
Bevor the Cop of France he was bitten in the back of the lower
leg by a dog in training like a leash broken to dog came it bit
the shit out of them and is lower leg and is for slot was i
can't like and he but you know you know i i'm going to i'm
going to work the trial and he right and so what he did is he
win to a doctor you there new some about he what are he win to
a doctor and he at a small? But very hard cast put on as
lover like I'm about here is what we call the cast in English
right it at a versmol cast put on that part of is like and he
see the problem was that vico was so fast and have so match
technic that he can by you are he one of the buy you and also
in there's the the technic and the abilities of the of the
french. Ring dekos the liz on the tack
we're not as hilly the valpes there are now so really go dog
could kind of dictate the turns and vicko was verifast verihard
byding and he at a perfurplace to buy and all the the veri veri
best dekos could pervenhim from byding there and it just have
and it be with the dog hit bit and Johnny shell and training
and so we at a pertect that place.
With a cast and then also he spent the entire passage of the
dog on on the field and bike, we're trying to pervent vico
from biding that particular part of is like and he're cooled, not
vico that exackly with he one of with them and he's that by the
end of of vicos performance that the cast was in a schritt around
he's ankle and and his and. And he's leg was bleeding, but
what it as to do with are topic was that one virians to sing
thing that the johnny shell satimy was there he pointing out
the differenz between a dog who as hard charakter a dog was
strong charakter and a dog who as the fiskal constitution to
byte hard there not the same things a dog who bytes very hard
as not that's a very brave dog and vice for us up what he sad.
That dogs who like extremly hard, it's important that they
also have strong charakter because they attrakt retaliation
from decois. Ok.
Right because you can in cost to the dog the dog by to on hidden
equipment or the dog by to and a thin suit.
You feel it personally because you feel the power of the dog.
And it hurts and you're a little violen in merturn and the way
you do with the dog and then if the dog as a small card of the
dog as a sof charakter, it make them last and so jomy shells
that you if you have it dog who but's really really hard he but
of have carter big last people if he's not being general with
dequis there and knock and to be general with.
Her that's very interesting. You i're i're was a verre
percept of thing this i. And i wish it even do.
Maybe some trainers will never have to or one to get that close
in this kind of work with dogs, but i think in a trainer
education it would be the big thing to poot people in as you
and. The mostian the Mostian portant
thing I'm start in a up you, but II person that as an interviewer
if you get me an idea, it's ok for me to go have a jump and it
i think it's there the contax the emotional and the
motivational contax in which the algis working dictates the
properties of is behave you so the doggis one thing one he
words for pies of foo. The dog is something and tiraly
different if it is a dog with strong strong motivations
instinctive motivations at you endgates as motivations the dog
is something i're really different, and there is a little
bit of a separation but twin those and dog training to work
with dogs only in the lower registers up motivation.
Versus the people who are custom to and contable working the dogs
in all registers a motivation particular when they work with
with dogs or a selective for some kind of work exackly
maxsumize is the value of motivation and so for me II
think everyone who works for dogs for have an IDA what a dogs
melfals like and to not be a frate of it, but also to
respekted. But also they they should a
custom them self to the dynamics and the feelings of a dog when
the dog is proberly being a dog and because then you don't
really know the anno and so i think it's right important for
you know just is you that i think it's important for people
who one and no a lot about dogs all kind of Dogs?
To and Kind of Do's Dogs in all ranges abolivation and one way
to one kind of a dog in a verit of an state and you make be used
to is to do byte work with a dog and get used to the dy name.
It's get used to the feeling and beginn to a plank yourself with
the idea that that a dog is not just what in english, we call a
for baby, i people have the hats is they just one at pat a little
dog and they think. I and they a tribute you human
feelings the dog and then they feel be trade by the dog of the
dog do's something wrong, they they find there expectations of
the dog disopoined II think if you and kind of the dog and
allmus you understand the dog better and that also was is your
to keep in mine that also you love this creature, it's an
animal, the dog is an animal. You and.
Not a person. And and this is something i say
a lot II kind of say it every time i have the chance what is
I'm a working Doggy II precate dogs for what they do i precate
dogs some times for for abilities that are special and
make them apropreat only for limited uses by limited
populations a people technations I've I've have to love the dogs.
But one think that it's import in the keep in mine is what we
get out of or affection for dogs.
If we look for the dog to return are love at to be faful at to be
fair at to be on selfish, not only will we be disappointed,
but also we will be cool for the dog because we expect sopting of
hemm of what he is not capable. And in away as we we're speaking
a min in to go, we're whataliate the value in an emotional
engagement with dogs is that it it's what we exercise about are
self one we love of dog one we know that the dog mainot return
the love in exactive the ways we get it to them.
You you you can't trusted dog to be Facebook you can't trusted
Dog to be fair you can't trusted Dog to not follow impulses of is
on that my herd other dogs I'm are my herd people are other
lifestock you can't trusted dog in these ways that you my trust
a person home you love but when you when you love a dog
understanding what he is it is for yourself and extracise in
developing. You're on a bill, it is as you'm
and be. And when you people don't like
to to here this, but i think that as you discribed it, it
makes a lot of sense what you would you say the dogs are
opportunists. Of cours and.
That's. And that's not a it's, it's a.
I see no the the only the only thing i am an opportunus you are
an opportunus. It's fusure a.
Person ofly both of as have ethical systems that give us
pass that make us hazitate win. We contemplate taking at vange
of an opportunity that will in frenjipon the rights of others
the only thing at stops us from doing out or two things empathy.
And an ethical System based on Appathy II See no evanes of an
ethical System and dogs with means that win they see an
opportunity, they will see's the opportunity in in my experience
and win the opportunity a something that IA range for the
dog to so the he seas is it. Then it can be very good for
him. A can be good for a relationship
if the uped to the is something he seas is that is dangers for
him or bad for him or dangers for mich or stressful for me or
dangers or stressful for the human mixer all or animals of
long and society that it's an upertooned that that up must not
have and they're two ways to controll that one of them is
with perfect controll of the environment and the outing one
is with good controll of your dog and motive is a complash.
Responsible stewardship responsible ownership of our
dogs but doing bothos. We controll out dogs behave your
and we also controll is much is. We can the enviramment that are
dog and kuners, but we seldam have perfect controll of the
avano we just like we're must have very good controll of are
dog aside from Predicting what are dog, willy will not do
because not of us can perfectly predict what are dog, Willy will
not. Fusure.
Fusure and controlling the environment is something that
can't be like like this is sard of inolution that can be created
in for a pet dog or for a training, but fusure not in in
deployment or i'm i geting you're rone.
No, no, it's it's you can't have in controller for a pet dog.
So so we're something that will turn to in a minute is talking
about the dialektic which is. What is in English word for on
on going conversation like it the bey or argument, we're two
points of view and the idea behind a dialektic is is not
assessirally that it will eventually be souled like one
side will be ride will be proved ride or the other side will be
proved ride, the idea is that the topic it self is it vance
closer to truth. As a result of this, never in
the conversation between two pretty, your reconsilable points
of you and so the dialektic and dog training right now as it is
in all kind of of keeping of of domesticated animals is between
the o so advicate strictly what i call a peditive behave or
controll and a peditive is a fancy psychological word what
stands for the use of. On the rewards and training, i
they're busteling rewards, a pon the dog or taking rewards a way
aversive control. So, this is talking about and
positive reforcement and negative punisment.
Go and then aversive control refors to the usive negative
reforcement and positive punisment right and this or the
fortings of we just discusted or the standard continensies.
In instrumental conditioning right that the the for proceders
that we can carry out, they're not forms of learning they are
they are formal proceders based on probabilities of one of at
and another that right and so the onguine dialektic is between
people who think that we shit us only rewards and dog training
and other people who think that we shit us and you think of
alible to us. That is epicly defensible and
also a proprie to the goals and can't be use walperserving the
do's welfare that we see do is also toels in training that's
the on going discussion and in in that respekt and and you are
very well aware that that this dialekt has affected.
The conduct of walking dot training but professional and
amiture amiture Sport Training in Europe and it my also beginn
to affected in Nordamerika is well, but the dialektic is very
strong. The argum is very strong in the
training of company dogs because it's not just walking dogs at a
strong motivations to do stop some pet dogs company dogs can
have very strong bovations to do stop that is e the stress will.
Or economic lee damaging or dangers for owners for other
members of society etc. And so, there is a large and a
very vocal contention of of kindle logan and and kindle
logas who's they very strongly that you should only us positive
rain forsment to train the stocks and it all you need the
have is technic. And knowledge and you can get it
done. They based this very much on
using proceders to at released in the beginning and for much or
training to exor very strong control of them ram.
What means that if you have a that's just pick a little
terrier, the ukeep is a pat and the lil terrier develops what in
englisch, we call leash reactivity with the doggos.
Action eather two fear or aggression or peditory exigment
when it see's another animal and that's say that i'g as a lot
threshold for frustration as well, so have to time when it
go's at another animal. If you stop in with the leash,
you turns or on a bites your leg right so you have to just
keeploting and do it. What what the first perscirption
from the pure positive Community is is well you have to control
the enviramet there a carefully and till you're ready for that
situation and to you put all of the behavral tools in place and
you're ready for that situation what here's the problem a lot of
people who have leasue reactive lutariers live rightnext other
people who have children automobiles bicekals.
Other Dogs etc. And they can out a complash the
nasseserry in viraminal control, they can't keep the nabors
inside they can't keep children from showing up what have a
problem is, they can't keep it from arize so so for me, it's
not just in we're going dogs, it's a probre it to talk about a
verso control, it's also extremly probe it to talk about
it in the contact so kimpendo. Because people have proms of
companion dogs that runen, there's if they have there dogs
and also runen the dogs lips and some of this problems or what we
call intractable to solutions meaning, they can't he's leave
be fix to solutions that all me will i on and varmanal control
for long pieries so that posed reinforce my continues.
And negative punishment continues is they are applyed
will an of skill and passions can have the nesis.
Ariufa and and there is one of the the big problems.
I think this skills and knowledge of people who
arealiable to applydos consequenes to dogs, so for
example in Austria, it's we are have in a veristriced animal
belfare law for. More then a they cate now we're
not a lot a lot to us tools et cetera think with maybe even
district is the animal will for law worldwide, i don't take me
to to strict on that, but i think so axually so even not in
police or military work trainers are all out to use versive tools
but for sure. All do's the consequence is of
the of the quadrance they work and they exist like the science
is not coming with our law that when IA law as we you're on the
a lot of two work with positive inforcement that the science in
austria is like ok that we just go with two more quadrance and
that's leved you are the once out i think the the problem sins
Dennis. Given that people or not able to
and not even like people for military police or or who ever,
maybe specialized talk train is or not able any more to find out
about do's things without being in a grey zone talking about law
like being doing things that i'm not a out to the figure out to
understand things like that so. They're like in the humping
community people or going abroad to me.
We to the check republic to attent in e color workshops that
are given by german Trainers who basically live in austria, they
have to go to the check republic to to do the things and i it's
not like i want to highlight the the us of e colors or something
because because of this last that are given people found out
very. Stylish ways to to train
powerful working dogs with the with everything that is given
and the loud for sure there or things that are changing
constanty also the style of training influences the
selection and the breeding of dogs, so that's that's a big one
and. And we c d's changes in in the
Dogs attitude in in the force and mentality, but of cours
everything is changing, so i'm not against the changes self
what i what i think is to make a point, but i think is is so not
even frustrading, but it's so sat that people are constantly
trying to put the put the. The aversive site of control it
sounds it sounds a little harsh aversive control sounds, it does
not sound, it's just a. Technical, it's just a technical
turk think of in in english the root to the word aversive is to
a word, which means to. Turk.
Right. That's so.
One of words on's gay so so one way the think of aversive
control is not that your callsing pain.
But. That you are d Tour, you are
calling the dop to turn away for one behaver all upion in to
another behaver all up and and the force, the nasseserry and
and this is something if andy buty cares have a two in to one
of my lectures or one of our kindalogy lectures one of the
point someke is that the the mose use for definition of.
On aversive is not how painful it is because we don't know how
painful it is the mose usful and the mose scientific definition
of or aversive is something that functions as an aversive meaning
that if you present it falling of behaviar, you will make that
behaviar last vigar or last probible and future.
Right if you take it a way of all on a behavar you'll find
that behavar bekommen's more problem a long more vigers and
future will get what if you with drawfood that the dog expecs
have the dog in gazs and nackt that will have a punishing
effekt. The Definition it meets the
definition of an aversive Aside from how Pain Fall Andy of as
Gas. About weather not in my beef for
the cocker spanial to not get a ps of who that it experts will.
We can all a gree on if we truck at carefully is it as a punising
effect on behavior and what i like to point out is it in the
hands of good technations the levels of what i call he donic
of us and so what i mean by he donic of us is.
I'm he'den as them is the seeking applesure one.
We're for that to he don't like vu you what or sang as what a
stimulus feels like to a person or what a stimulus feels like to
a dog, the he don't like vu you of the stimulus do's not
defined, we're not that stimulus conwork as a punisher or
reinforced, it's the function this important and when this
bekomms really plan is when you see.
A versive controll, they do not show behavioral Depression, they
do not show what we call negative affect they don't show
bad emotions the only right the you can tell a versive controll
is being us is the two noters one is stimulasis present it it
max behavior last like the to a car and when it's take in a way
it max behavior more like the to a car and i have i had a vering
to see experience. Because and i was i was want
bevor hand that i was not be a pop is are talk and that i was
have to the fin myself at the talk was over that people with
this agree with me, i should video have to we look to the lot
of video and i concluded and say and arthur and equestions people
dead and dead one argu is me do you know with they one or argu
is me about? Like you know.
They want to argue with weather what i was doing was really of
ors of control or not the reason they want to differ with me is
that they did not see signs of software.
And in there mined a versive control must be mark, but the
presents of softring on the part of the dog because they did not
see softring they did not reckignice what i was doing was
technically a versive control and i was very have be with that
outcome because what i think is this means that i can go to a
conferts for people who practice peerly positive dog training.
And i can practice offers of control and a crowd of them
outside with my dog and all they will see is that my dog is happy
and he is taking foo. Yeah.
That they will not see the avers of continusies because they only
think of avers of continusies as calls and soffering and pane if
they do not see soffing and pane, they think it must be a
posit or informes what or and i get pot of procedion.
That's that's very interesting and i think.
And III did the same so i was in the same belief that and there's
only black and white you know so when i learned about the
quadrons what is a very nice so i have it in front of my innerer
i and i seeed and one a first learned about it for me was.
For english speakers here, we're faring to what's call the
continuity square. There's that is only use as i
teaching a by people with a. A behavior an nalasis with means
a skinarian behaviors ton of a backwell i the continuity square
is what we call that in English. So it was idar or positive
rinforcement positive punisment, negative rinforcement, negative
punisment, but it's not idar or there so many new onsis so i can
idar or. Hears.
Here I'm so i go have go have go.
II can i can just handover a treat a kibble or is liz of
cheese or you know i can elevate the the the value of the dogs
reward i can also elevate the intensity of a punishment
Punisher, so if i take away the talk this like have a bigger
impact if i would like compared to just taking away the kibble.
Because maybe the dogs value is hire tors the talk order the
kibble and the same goes for the aversive technic of positive
punishment, so it's not it's not cruel you know it's like heaving
being able to to have a certain does on the consequence that
that goes tors behaviod and this is the.
This is the part at we trainers need to need to understand.
We need the skills we need the knowledge of how to does rewards
and how to does punishments because i think we can even make
batt things happen when doing wrong rewards elevating the dog
for the roof having in german, you might even no this saying
with a trieb macht dumm. With means like too much drive
and the x drive and a stupid exactly and then the dog is not
aable to learn aniting use for animore because they're just in
the orbit of of of pleasure, but maybe disturns and to
frustration and then for it bekommen sie even punishing to
the learner. Müde auch, macht dumm ja he
because Win the dog is is physical is as it he also
bekomme stupid II would an i would an argue that win the dog
is highly motivatity bekomme stupid what i would say is that
there's very much to in a fear with his performance, he maino
exactly what he is a bos to do and be unable to do it because i
have an kive inhim the equipment win, but win dogs are tired.
You can't all mosay as it if they have strong motivation and
they becom tired they becom a little stupid so and but still
if the same think it's not the they for get what they should do
when there tired, but the firsting that goes is self
control when it ages physically tired the firsting that goes is
self control, not is knowledge what he spost to do not is
memory of how to do it now that's up is ability to control
um self and and do it is the firsting goes a wave and he
stired. But you say a moment of go you
so the broad up the saddelties and the new onses that are
barryed with this in the continuity square, so the
continuity square, it's very confusing to look at when somedy
take shoes for it and you finally master the fort of for
continuies there's this feeling of like ok now i know every that
right like I'm got it all. It's only a beginning so that's
look at a couple of the new ons as have in a do was so so one i
talked about a versive controll in a petitive controll, there's
are that's a way of segergating the for quaderance of the
continuity square and two two parers that used to the two
different kind of simular right, so you think ok, we'll if i only
work with food. Then I'm not doing andy think of
versip to the anno it can only be nice.
I'm going to dock something nice or i I'm take you a ways
something nice or omiding something nice will get what one
of the benchmarks one of the depended variable that's us
consisted like. In Studies of animal walfare in
Studies of animal Stress etc. Is is in the form of measers of
cordical steroys, which are chemical agons that are a minute
to actions of the of the brain and the actions of the brain
with assentialy can't be use if they're entropert a carefling of
as markers of stress. Well, it can be schon i have it
us in papers on my desk that the ramuval or the omission of a
rebord we'll calls cortical spiroid elevations also if i
have a think call of an omission q that teles an animal that is
not going to be rewarded i can't us that omission q as an
negative information. So i if i have AQ for instance
in a dog training contact, we can say it some people use the
work wrong when a dog makes and a stak and the contincent that
they're working with is if you don't me critering i don't
reward you. There's like somephing like a no
reward marke or or. Korrekt, no Reward Marke.
We'll get what a no reward marke is an a mission q.
It's it's a pevlovian in hibbaner that tels in animal
something is not at something not nice is going to happer what
happens win you get franceens in in in American banks we get a
state my thing that money as some of the as paders or they
we're phots a paders is not going to be paders we get a
peace a paper thank that i's check was not good you're not
geting p. Just what that's a mission kup,
that's you're not going to get pit no one like to see that's
bis is a pag there don't do that like to here no your wrong and
get what i don't me to gast at that i can point to data from
scientific laboratories that shows cordico steerright spikes.
In respons to a mission kuse and also shows that animals will
engage in instrumental responses, meaning valentary
responses and order to getaway for a Mission kuse in not in
instrumental contax, but in a pepplovian contax animals will
with drawfrog omission kuse, they will put distance be twin
them sales and a mission kuse so vose or behavioristic or
imperial. Indications of what the he donek
vaue of that stimulas like be for the animal and do's
indications or telanas that all mission kuse or unplasm that are
a versive right. Jetzt so xake and a dagno just
it's i go we go, we're we can be one mars apple right, so Barry
in o two squares of give the ogoposit ranforcer or don't get
the ogoposit ranforcer is underforsive continions.
Now that's go. Let's go to the other one so
positive ponchment and negative reinforcement it can be song one
of the recomedations i have for practition is of a versive
control is that they use what or call of eater what i get all
call of a safety q so is that they use a safety q to more
successful complition of a critarian respons and signify to
the dogs that nothing of versive will happer.
It's call the save to q right some electra callers have tons
on that you can use a save to q's most of a su practice is
kind of training, we have a verbal q that's as all mission
of a punisher in laboratories, it's quite usual for there to be
a save to q in an negative, in an negative in forcement
context. And if there's not and x plus
and safety q that franceens tells and animal that it is
successly move from one side of a shutle box to the other side
of a shutle box and that they will be no elector chock they're
all kind of other kuses that the animal conus in cluting it's on
propreaceptive kuses meaning i move i know i move, I'm no i
pervenanted something on plus and reapining so this are safety
kus we can show. That safety q's have many of the
properties a positive inforces right they can be use to
condition to motivate other behavers so animals will work to
bring about safety q's also we can show that that's problem off
on, that's upwork so so barry, and it's can i get a
reinforcement proceders like i make this point and that's
terminals. So Berry the negative
inforcement proceders there is a very important positive
inforcement process and the the point in time the point in
animal performance that with we see this positive inforcement
process most at work is in well advanced of voidance kind of
responding. Win if you look for fear right,
you think ok, it's a void ins responding and was doing this on
q in or to a void a he donacly of or subsemulas there's mus b 4
right there's going b 4 so of i use and in the pened measure a
fear to chat for the level fear in a laboratory anomaled it a
shilling a very there a high level the we ins responding
that's what no fear. Right, so the question is at
what's sign to call asimpetotic meaning maximal hi as possible
levels of a board insurspony and liberatory setting what we see
is the absons of here measure to independate measure the question
is what's driving it well. And also the work of safety q's,
which is i said have a lock of the the properties, the posser
ranin forcers what is why you can see a dog trained by a
higlevel technition the usevers of control perform activally
joifaly and show positive effect eveno he's waring a prom coot or
eveno he's waring an elektric coot to show positive effect in
the samway. Well that that.
Can't do a phillips have go discussion, but but that that is
what i have to see in a not shall and i like you to kind of
this in to the details some time but that in a not shalls what
i've to say about the continuity square and this part of ficial
spliting up it in two nice mathes and not nice mathes it's
not so we is you to spit up ja. And.
I'm so i get the row you but that's.
That's what we call or ray and i want to the finish my rayan
fusure fusure and. And it make that off of Sand so
fusure men of Allison is will will one to die deep deepering
to this probly we like be happy in off to have a canologies and
posting here in european they with you guys, but bevor that i
will, i will be the lighted i will be the lighted to.
Do it. Consering the safety.
Q's How just the learner on the stand or where is the
association between the safety q and the not happening
consequence so talking about the there, they're two ways to do it
and and. This bekomms extremly technical,
so it's it's impossible for meet it.
That's a very good question. And it's impossible for me dance
for the question. What I'll geting very taktible
so i will tright to skimove the Details a little bit and if this
interview and you one on a more about it, then in future i will
have more agication available i will have two videos up pretty
zoom and one of them will will tell you some of the basics they
know or on your stand safety kus you have on your sand peblovian
inhibition. And I don't go.
Essently. In peloby connitioning what's
happening is one stimulus develops the ability to predict
another stimulus and in trains changes it an animals or a
person's brain to a just to the prediction that something is of
out to happen in peloby connition in peloby and
inbitioning what's happening is that a stimulus perdict the
absons of somping important happening.
Predicted on the bases of the situation right, that's a pable
of an and hibber so a pable of an and hibberer for someting
fear of the for someting that that produzes fear or pane kind
of preduses relief kind of preduses someting that fears
good a pable of an and hibberter for someting that that for
someting that. Mikes and and are human being
fuel good feels kind of Bad right, so what we talk about a
minute to go one. I Tell my dogg wrong what that
is it's a pewlowian and hibbitor for if i'm using food, it's a
pewlowian and hibbitor for food, it means no food the dark is the
like to here that we're because he means no food it's the operit
of plusion and vice for so in the context of a versive control
and safety kuse. What a safety q is a pawlowin
and is is a pawlowin and hibberer for what ever the
punisher is that's your using there are two ways that formate
that that association can be a stablish one of them is two
forward conditioning. What is a think call assassation
q like that's say i want? I'm not going to put.
This in Trumps of Dog. Training because it with son
like a we're dog training procedure.
I'm a put it and in the the context of a laboratory study,
so that's a we have an animal who a standing on an elektrifide
grid and. The Grid.
Goes hot so the animals feed or uncomtrible and then at time
zero, the grid goes off and off sets.
There are two ways. I can use edition information to
predict up for the animal one of them is to forward conditioning.
What is that there's AQ that coms in at zero mine SF, there's
a five second q that's as voltage is going to shot off and
five seconds that's fulward conditioning and that will make
that that offset q that's as asian q, it will make it a
peblobian and hibbor for shock. If it'll training to a nice
noise and also a very informative noise for the annom
right, there's a not a wake to do it.
You can backward condition so that the annomals on the hot
grid hot meaning, there's curk flowing to it right at time
zero, the grid goes off and just of at that time another signal
goes on for three sex and that signal.
Is is backward condition with the offset of a acricity and
that's what some of that's backward conditioning works.
It's not a relible real. The backward conditioning never
work, sometimes it just work it's backward condition by the
offset of shock and also we're importanty bothed these qs, the
cassation q and also the safety q they're both a societ of the
offset of shock and a pevolvian sets and they predt apired of
safety. And theywill.com strong
informate hozed if reanforcers yeah i I've.
And and. If i and if.
I've that's going you know are lisoners all of a lisoners out
there if that's going you know over your head or past your head
you one here in or. That's talk about it in detail.
You'll be. Challenge right this shit is not
easy to understand, you'll be challenge what that is part of
what i beginner interview with is is think that they're all
kise aways of challenge your sof and dogrand you can challenge
your sof emotional, but i learning to do something like
free shaping. And you can town yourself
inelectually by learning the stuff that tells you why the
stuff you do one dot training feels that works why at works
and why the shit you do one dot training feels that does and
work and then also why we're some of the mics and argument to
you is nonsens that is nonsens. You can the tack that is nonsens
and tell them white is nonsens. And that's bei or being able to.
Really pudding words what you're a plying and what you're.
Doing and innowing how to. Discribe why things or working
and not the coothing from the discussion that that i of
learned all really is this idea of the of the safety q's because
what we are teaching are handlers and instructes in our
courses is that. Like we that's just are
philosophy of how how we apply different consequent is.
So we use announce and on announce rewards, they're.
Like always be a little announce and man.
And what me as QA Techno go, let me as QA.
Techno go question, what is the utility?
What is the purpus of each of? There's techning it really.
Depens on on the situation. Of behavior, so when I'm talking
about reward announcements. ID bite behavior or wanted
behavioring to big categories. The one is that we owis go
through first and late on when it's about specifity and and and
precision where we want to reward a quick correct response
getting into the correct behavior, very fast accurate
etc. And there for in most cases and
i'm reallio detection guy or nose work guy also.
Searching for people and and out of substance is i want to have a
korrekt timing and make the dog really on the stand that the
decision of geting into this behave or now was ride on top,
so i announce to reward ride away.
The reward announcement when for a classical conditioning, so
it's a reflex like behave or that comes after the
understanding of a reward. And sometimes i want to work on
staying in a behavior, so i some how play with a variable
rainforcements catchel we're the dog under stud.
Ok, there might be a point of receding a reward not really
knowing when so i just stay in the behavior, and for example, a
behavior that is oriented to the front like sit and there or
stand and bark torards and object or a subject.
I present the reward on announce from the backture a classical
throw in the toy torwarts dessours and this is.
What what be call? The on announce reward for
example, orits call it a healing and you're walking, walking and
then suddenly. You present the reward for the
dog, the might BO was a little announcements because of
movements or the sound that the the ball might make when froing
it some we're, but it's not a and announcement that we work on
by pudding it on under rinforcement or a stimulus that
announces the positive rinforcement so this is a hope
you got the point that i was. No, i I'm.
I did it. And and my you're.
You're makeing two you're makeing explicity one important
point, which is that evenive we do not explicity predict and
out.com so in informal talk what we call a punershes and a wars.
And and also USS and peb lowby and are can are classbuddition
proceders will be callbos are are outcoms right, so it's it
evenive we do not explicity perdict and outcom.
With a word or clickers, i'm like that it's very hard frost
to perduse that outcom without over insidennal stimuli,
predicting me outcom, and that can be a big bro and all kind of
the was but to live you're trained attack to docks right,
but in the every phase of training evan winner's not a
delatory inforcement advanticiously or acedenly
condition padlovian kuse so Frances you healing your dog.
He's like an up at your face. He's all and gays like he's
spozedo you're going to trine to give them and unanance free in
forsments to really get a costum you're do in just the right
think, but if he's your hand move or fee, he's your
fingernals it's you're jacket or he's the velpro on the pocket
when you get the ball out he's no on your doing what you're
trine the reen forsom for he's doing something that and that
can be a big problem, but there's so that's one important
point. That.
So we're go and. No, that's one.
Very important point that. That you that you made is that
ebene of you doside the appropria think and the besting
you do right now was to get an unanouts for a war.
It's really hard to do super smarded right because it's very
off and that the reward is annouts by a stimulus that you
didn intern and and you instat in Sir you're on explizit it
stimulus that you can controll. Other important point that's you
maid and maybe not explicitly, but for me, it was it was barry
that what you're think ok is is something that's so go have go,
but it no if i and so what have a quip go it, i was just
listening II. Ok, you're are you're you're.
Active literner you're talk a literner ok, so the the other
important point it you this you made assassin the as a do with
the effective supprise one of the motion port insites about
peb loving connitioning a indians tremanal connitioning
that has to have all up sins the late sixty not the the every
sevener late sixties and every sevenies as a result of the work
of a psychologist name leon camon.
Is is the conception that it is surprise that drives learning.
We're an animal. Or human Bing.
Is really surprise by an alpcom that calls is the larges
incromant in learn. We're an alpcom is very perficly
producted that produzes lower. Interbits in Learning so One
think i think your sang is that in or to get a very strong
reenforcement a they highly highly do's a arble behaviour
what you like to do with surprise the dog with the a
rival of the ball or the will order what have reusing i think
that is very sound thinking fractity it's super hard to do.
And if you want to know have this idea of surprise driving,
both plasco connitioning and instrumental connitioning coms
and it have to do with the work of another psychologes name will
Leon kaman and also another psychologes name Robert rescorla
i astly i name to dog after Robert rescurl, so there's a dog
at there's name is rescurl a grate psychologes and what he
that is he developed a sudom mastmatical model.
To a kind for the effects of surprise, I'm in conditioning
and if I'm not my staking, it's an austrian scientos to i think
is name is shurts who as verified that on a new ronal
level, this is what's serrin classes of norons in the brain,
do is that they fire when. And expectation based on present
stimuli is not fulfill and what these are ons do is there the
scrap and see the takers they've digger out and the animal
perdiced something and something els happens and they drive a
shit lot of learning we not a curx.
I have to do's and research is on that.
So is the schuld. Still a life or is r d's all
there's studies, oh ja, ja i so so II Think.
He for us Point it Out II holt i have the namecarrect i think
it's shoes and i have the paper all with there on my desk, but
some time in the ninedies he that's the norop i loggical work
in a we're animal like a mongoly and jurbal or something like
that. In which they were able to
isolate this class of the rons who they don't fire win orwards
are unprediced, they don't fire win punishers or unprediced they
are dopaminergic no rons meaning that they're on they they're the
effects to the no transminer dopamin and they fire
prferenchally when something the animal fog was going to happen
do's in happer. And and they are active with the
most learning is a complused. So, so that's Kind of the noiral
Biology and there's all kind of levels of detail.
It was so live look in this, but basicly with your song is hey
some times it really sures my perpuses to surprise my dog with
or a war some times it really sures my perpuses to surprise my
dog with a punishment hard to do.
Because that aggas dum and if you was but is not dum and being
unable to predator was going to have next and training szenario
based on all the kuse of aable them, but if you can't a compash
surprise of the right time, you can develop a tonne learning on
off of a verif you a smallmember of learning trials and.
So, this is something that's. Really try to or dual or best
in. In teaching by purple's
announcing or not announcing, for example, also this surprise
can be announce just when the dog is not yet expecting there
reward or expecting in that the different so you can surprise in
with the marker. Not with the reward exactly
exactly ja. So for sure and extra, this is a
little of topic, but what be really interested and what you
think about it because a talked about it with.
I think Evan Michael and also with Jens Frank Conserning so it
my just happ and sometimes that you're a using AA condition
stimulus announcement for a reward at wrong time, and then
not giving the primery rerean forced that the dog riddy
expected i for myself. I am not educated in off, maybe
or not experience in off or two nive and i would see II.
When i do a click event, it was a wrong click II.
All was deliver the primer rean for so because that's like an
unrit and lot is. This is the the promis that i
made because i think about it i already gave the information of
a off a reward, so the dog already as his dopamin shooting
around in it's brain and and feeling reward it and giving the
reward afterward is just something that keeps the weal
turning. And I don't want mic.
As I don't want my dog to start thinking about oh he click but
will he now give me the reward or maybe not like the last time
so even do i did wrong clicks, i they're not happing happening to
two many times hopely i would still deliver a primer or
inforce and what how do you see it what you're deliver a reward
even do you get a wrong announcement.
So. So the Situation.
Is the dog as not met critarian or he's metamestic like he's
think we're can do is xacli and at the very.
Moment, you want to click or save the Reward announcement
like i use word or sounds. I'm it with my mout because i
loose the clicks a solditime the dog is indicating sitans there
and when you one to reward he's. Losing Fokus ja, and this is I'm
sexy is. The clearer.
Stick that's a good clearer x Apple.
So that's talk about the dog e mits to us to use behaver and
aloses language. The Dog, e mits and unders are
of a respons you make a mistake and you mark that respons with
the pable ovi and exider with. Tells a dog that that a word is
coming right one. It's it's a kind of a no win
situation if you go on and we're word the dog trine to keep your
contract with the dog if you do this marker, you will be reward
it trine to keep that holy if you go holy like HLLY Holy right
heilig ja heilig that's if if. You tride it keep.
This contract with the dog holy by Roman.
And wearding hit evanuay made in a stick, then you're reanforcing
and on as i will respons on the other hand.
If you do not rewarding because you're mark them at the wrong
time and you don't on a reanforce to respons then you're
you're break in the contract with my particulit perspektive
is that particulit because. Particulit because turning that
had. Tors you and a well train dog is
an exceptional behager. Right like he's supprice you,
you don't think he was going to do that so a click that you know
the hit turns you click and you pay the dog that's a relationsly
uncomend behabor so the amanda learning that's you going to
drive but providing and or worldwide that is quitstrol ok,
now that's that's go back to your mark how offen have you if
you is an clicker how off and if you clicked and then we're what
the dog with a cong or with you. Hundreds of johns pro xxly yeah
and a dog that you. And a dog that you've train the.
Great the all hundreds of times how like extinction to you think
you will drive with one non reanforce non nom.
Much no xxly yeah, it'll it will be a.
Posible. So so.
My peservice and i peservice will be to go a fuck it.
I mark them for the on think i've just not going to about
right and and the. The downside that i don't think
will be that you will we can your market the downside to a be
will be the you'll cosm frustration with cool in merch
layeroy right because what the dog what a what a dog will ten
to do. Win the doggus supprice by aver
a will condition q for reinforsment and the doggus not
reinfors is the doggo programm frustrator and engage and
perseveration what i we was do an hill do it harm right, but my
particular point of you is that battle to put my my marker on a
very very rich but still portal. Reinforcement's cadual interest
and it provide primer reinforcement for a behaviour i
absolut, we don't want, but if i on the stand.
So I'm I'm on the orside and this mixens and i will also soon
tell you not a story, we're that i discovered for myself ok, but
and that me get you a foot, no. But what we're klose last me the
talk about prediction and walfare ok.
So ok, so that's that's go down. What have a dog training rabbit
hole you want to go down because you as interesting questions,
but that's not for get to talk a link bit about prediction
control ok and animal walfare II pudd a rufezeichen to it.
Was mein Rufezeichen. Rufezeichen, Oh, rufe.
Nation mal. Ja, Oh ja, ja, ok.
Ok so. That's how how to pudd it.
When the dog when the learn II was like to talk about the learn
it because it works for us, the sing probably all was the same
was it's also it's also politically korrekt.
And and we we all do what's an like on it.
I'll Single German We all. We would have to.
At all the all the. Genders, der die das lernen
Lernerin genau lernen, das ja ja auf Englisch wir haben.
Das gleiche Problem, aber nicht so, nicht so viele Alternativen.
Ja ja, i will Not oskey about your.
Pronounts. So.
I'm. Just get a I'm just get a step
pasta. Ok so.
What I Ford. And and and i like.
To develop and understand things you what i ford is when i have
created a propert trained and propert conditioned stimulus
that announces the the uncondition stimulus.
Then that. Then the learner already.
Feedles hiped or reward it when he's just hering the
announcement, so if if that what then so so you have rean force.
You have rean Force behält or already when you've mixackly all
ready that was that was. The reason why of out ok already
rean force it and yes, we have this not rit in contract, but we
have it so i just hand of or or give to the dog the rean force.
Because I don't know you can you you've got me think and about.
There's now it's it's quiet a good question and i don't like.
That i's got a experts because. It's a very interesting.
It's very nerdy, but i like talking about it.
So it's it's not nerdy, it's a. Aktually a very like II think
one we say nerd in English, we kind of mean some about the who
loves knowledge or loves detail. Divors from how my practical
value, the knowleger detail is ok, you think that that this is
that connequestion i think this is actually and important
applyed question because it's a problem that all of as is all
trainers are going to have what to do in the situation and and
the inster is far from obvious and i think that i get talk to
technicity very strong like strong technations.
Who would have to going points of you and the more i think
about at the more sodal aquestion it is my my first a
proximation with do because one must be coreses about
frustrating a high, we motor be working up because win you win
you frustrate the animal in someways you make it more
likely. That behavior associate with
frustration will reopeer like the home parshal reforcement
extinction effekt, the the mccanics a puddy of behavior on
a parshal reinforcement skedal and orders to make it resistance
to extinction that to pens on frustration.
I so, so Frustration is a tool what it's probly condition
frustration is a way of geting an amels to do something i get
and a kind and a kind. Even no, it's not reanforce so
if you in a virtual reanforce an animator the wrong to i if you
in a virtual frustrate an animator the ring tom at the
wrong time in the afra to a bolasure behabor some time is
you can make that behabor reapear and a virbor sopern form
so one i think about it my thordias and i'm i'm not kind of
this is the ridans her, but you got me think about something
verbor interesting, and this is what we like to do in that conal
just symposia. Is consitor from a background of
technical knowledge to consitor questions that are difficult the
answer. There is a just or bright answer
or something we can all aply or my in and or experience and my
annitial my annitial a proxmation on that question is
if the mastake to the dog shows is a low probability behabor
something he's never don or he very really does.
Then I'm like up to frustrate him have to the marker instatter
for word him. If it's a problem, I'm actually
working meaning he's down of the butcher times for for and i'm
kind of get ritable and i inovertly market I'm like just
go oh fuck it i think i think I'm in a calls more problem like
frustrateing himright now when the behave of that's already a
lot bit you know hubitial at burbian.
Then i am but just going ok. Here's an all the rinforcer
you're got a problem this is an and i make it much was we're
just can a set up and do it again the right like so i think
in some sour consenses i'm my argue that the cours of last
dangers to go a rinfors and i know I'm going to get in the
primary because this is an uncoment behave your and i don't
want to get a rinfors my really in is learning history.
When the effect of each, we in forsman, he is i'm big incromant
in the have last one. It's very interesting, it's.
It's very interesting, so I'm like me know what you will talk
to some one about this or of you times i would be really
interested one we meet the next time to.
Michael Bears. Yes, and we like you super
interesting guide. To talk to it about we.
Strive is it english, we striveed we.
We we shortly talk to about it unfortunite that on a white.
We do it in talk about a longer, but i still think it's very
interesting and for me for me personaly and as i set I'm i'm
very eagle to learn. But for now, i what's still go
with the if it was a wrong click or if it was a wrong timing, i
what's still handover the the promist consequence, but what i
have and what i my initial and go it.
Oh i was just going to say my initial take was.
Was to disagree with you, but now you have me thanking more
deeplan I'm going. But interesting thing is i'm
working with some tool with a machine that it's call the
detection dog training system it it's engineered by a german
former police and Trainer Hans abbers maybe you know hin, maybe
not he he used to be and he. He developed disgrate machine.
So the Dog puts it has seven holes behind every hold or two
posibilities a destractor or a blank and.
Target oder and the system runs and and randomizes and twitch
hall the target oder will be open and the other six halls
there will be distractor or blank hall, and there is a in
germany. It's a lichtbrücke, it's a like
a light signal and when the dark knows is at the cract hall and
is disturbing the light bridge, so it's it's a it's a.
It's a light bridge. It's so it's a visual stimulus
what serves as a bridge. Ja, ja, exactive the machine on
the stands ok, the nose is in the korrekt.
Hole so a Reward will be delivered and the reward is
announce so the the dogputs is nose in the hole.
The machine on the stands ok, korrekt indication and the
machine that's bing and and then.
Release is the the kibble. Through a mechanism, so also
there is in mechanic sound of the bing.
And sometimes. The kibble.
Is getting stock all the way down.
Sometimes there is a bing. And nothing is coming down so
actually promis has been given do the reward was the behabio
was perfect, but the dog her is the bing is like i'm getting
rewarded and then the kibble god stock.
I don't know why because the holes or to small bla bla and
what is the dog now. Doing.
And we have scene different approaches from different dogs,
but most dogs or just ok, it's continuous searching find in the
next the next correct target, but i think this is because here
we have a quite alow level of a rausal exitment motivation
because it's just about the kibble and i have scene.
Something similar when we're training and a tech dog three.
He's first a projes around the corner, so not sing the the
subject running towers the subject and just byting the one
but searching around the corner, i was just a gäste this
training, so i was not the in taking part in it and this dog
running he's first search around the corner.
Not seeing the subject being like ok, they send me they
promised me that i could bite some one, but now the risno one
and the dog just hammered into a not us asford, but the beton
like a like really strong stony material.
He just hammered into it ran around the corner didnt see AD
koi and the frustration was like ok i will just bite anything
now. This is very much inturped by
me, but so that this this. Dynamic of of perhaps with
holding with holding or or afrit's been signal by the marco
or the bridge. This dynamic of we should i take
the frustration and of what we're wording the dog be on this
the signarerinforcer or shot i instet keep the contract with
the dog in payam. It also the Pens on what moed
the dog is in right. So Frustration will Defly play a
larger and I'm on Port and roll in the Prozess in the hire
registers of the Dogs emotions in Motivation i so frustrading a
dog for one piece, a food have to if given in thirty and the
cors of the training session is one them frustrading in from
upye one, he will only get 6 in the session.
And he's an a completely for a motional and physio argual stay
toe literent that exactly so i think there.
Is it all was depends right and and and and the art is to figure
out what what's Situation all we in what's the value of the
promised reward and it it makes total.
Sand because for example. Like you omi, some five euros
and you forget to get it back to me.
It's like ok's five euros, but if you oh me 5000€ and we meet
the next time you, but a bring it so it's it's a different bell
you and there is a different and maybe we're not.
France it in or you don't bring it so it's it's a really.
Be considered depending the dog, the exercise the level of
understanding so what is it about we teaching new behave or
all all we already pudding pressure on.
On learned behave your at we want to generalize and and and
see in different fessets you're you're feed as kind out.
Momentary your frozen, I think you'll come back in a me, it's
still hear me up for you can. At it that up you know.
I can know i can here you for what i can you ok, you're ok.
You're a actually my uploading is a little slower.
Now don't a why still haveing five g.
So that we're bevor we before we.
Ran out a bevor we ran out a time that me that me take my on
ramind or the talk about wellfare so wellfare and
prediction, so so we started are your talking about the dialektic
between those who addicate the us of stricplay appeditive
control. Versus appetitive and aversive
control that other don't trainers you's right, it's and
that is based upon it. I don't think many people say
and he more at aversive control does and word all the Bf Skinner
Set aversive control in Word. Um two and extested more
sitments at avers controll us at work etc.
II think now it's more of a wellfare argument, which is that
by using avers of control avers of control as he cateed with
with the stress and suffering some people.
Some technation. Some trainers think that all can
be acoplash with well use positor inforcers.
Why Stress Your Dog etc. So, so was antally the idea
behind this dipate is that one side of the dipate think that it
homs the dogs welfare to have a versip control used in train,
there's subtion is that of or sub control equal paint,
softring and software, and if there's a nother wate it do it
you should do without stress. This is assently the sameting a
seng that wellfare is the absons of stress right, but there is
also a technical school in the wellfare journals studing
domesticate animals in the last fifteener one years that do's
not the fine wellfare is the absons of stress razer.
They Stress in someways they emphasize in someways how a low
to motret labels of Stress can't actually have beneficial effects
on coping funkioning mut all that kind of stop and also.
They find that that stress so franceens her's here's something
for you stress is off and for from, we talked that something
earlier earlier cordical steeroid haormons stress a
laborator is off and in for from the presens of elevated cordical
steeroids jeder in saliba or Blood etc etc etc.
But it's possible show some time that the cordical steeroid
spikes. And all rut who have the
arpertony to made with a female rut are hirer, then the cortal
steroids bikes that the same animal shows when it's sharp of
electricity. Ok so, so Cortal Steroid
Elovation in the blood, that's not a one right completely solid
indication of the animal is stress right so all we're sing
is the idea of stress. Is more complicated and stress
is bad what we see do for human beings and for animals is
minamize the manus stress they have an our lots for me a more
useful interpretation and one that stays coser to anonormas
body of data that spend developed in laboratories is
that wellfare is not the appsons of stress wellfare is the
demonstrated ability of the dog or the animal.
To predet what is going to happen to it and then to control
what will happen to it, so i've just finish to alecture that i
will soon give about learnt helplusness one of the point
that i make. And I'm so all.
Of the people that are loting that's right now of herd about
learnt helplus is it if you have and then go read about it will
bitch is google it in a pop up all consumentarial?
The pointed i make about learn tuplesness is that stresses not
calls, learn tuplesness it is like of the ability to offset to
turn off stress. Is what corses the condition
that was lable larn helpluses in the late sixty's right, so it's
not the physical properties of the stressor.
It's the psychological variable of a subjektive feeling of one
aspekt of the stressor. What is win it turns off the
cors is the defisit call larn helpluses so so basicly what I'm
sing is that there two vary a important componers.
That or relevant to stress, but they are not measure of stress.
They're mated measure of animals ability to cope was stress like
you cope was stress in your life and like i cope was stress in my
like because stress is in evitable it can's to all of us
no my i'm like are percess and are society try to protect us
from it. You are family Stress will.com
to all of as and in the end what a coms down to is how like
resilians to we have i'm like computance to we have in
navigate and i was your stress and i was they dogs or on my
stiffern so this moter and conception of a dogs of a
laboratory animals or the best gate it animals welfare is not
this the animal. Are they're moments in the
anmals live or it do's not show positive effect are there
moments the dogs in the animals live, we're it do's not like
happy of cors, they're moments in the animals live for it do's
not like happy do's not show positive effect the more
important question is can the animal predict or will happent
to it in the next moment and can it control will happent to it in
the next mom is or buy engaging actively to bring a war.
Or by engaging actually to make a punisher, go right or engaging
actually. To make a Punisher.
Com to and it this is what this are from me the muchmore
relevant and the muchmore empiricly farm conclusions from
laboratory studies what's importing about wellfare is not
is the dog of a stress what's import about wellfare is win new
train him. Do's the dog have dibility to
product and control what the happen in the x moment, not just
bads of like punersers, but also rewards right so.
So a. Moment of go, we.
Talked about the import so prediction rewards and the
effekt of making a prediction. The annuals going to be a reward
and and violit in that expectation and i was the sexy
sand and a ware about it don't reward the dog you predicture
reward, there's not he's not be reward it.
What that is not to the trag for my nother farever important
point with is that prediction is extrem the important for
willfare just is control is extrem the important for
willfare it is it is there are papers that show that a
laboratory animals if give in a choice between hiwalt it in tens
shock that is not signaled not predict.
We'll. Shoes, I'm sorry, I'm going.
To changes about you if give in a choice between unprediced
lower level shock that is not is intens and hire shock that is
more intens, but that is signal first.
They will präferencialy shoes the signal more intens shock ok,
and that is a perry. That is a real.
That is a reliable finding right, so what that's telling us
is that is that production just like control is a psychologicly
very very important variable independant of the intensity of
the universate so what all of this is to say is that for me,
what's important is training is not do, i have so that see the
dog look on happy, what's important training is or moments
of on happiness or Stress. Are they transiateperius two,
which the dog makesisway successfully and two outies
proceders that i equiped to dog to bulls to predict and to
control what happen to that's have provide the dog will
walfare not by tring all my god that's like sure not think bad
of a happers to the dog to you think it's your job as a pared
to protecture child from all stress that the end that the
child will eversofer in live. Most parers will say no because
I'm going to dye no. I don't can i not product my
child for mostras but also i'm going to dye and then they will
have to cope with the world on the on myge of is to a quip it
is to teach them to cope. This is related of my conception
and dog training. My dog is not to pertect my dog
for every l straser that's every going happen my dog is to teach
the dog to have to dog to be com the strongest and the most
resilian coper that he possible can't be.
And that you in clues. Coping was?
Stresses? That i in to do's to have
because i'm need is behabor to be different that what other
wise be like i'm needim to not by to dog nextor I'm needim to
not bekommen exideed one a chalgos by an a bicagal and one
a i'm on a chase to chal what we're he's doing it because he's
frendly what he like not the chal over and cos an exoner or
because he feels predatory or aggressive right.
Um so Allstar uptown is that's a one point, it's a super
important point. Ja, it is a fee years a.
Go II God send this study from Jens.
It was thread one of or educations that i at tend it at
ds WDI and it was about the three grubs of of Reds and first
group is in diskage that gets heed it or how do you said so
electristies roning three the floor of the kaya that the.
The curn in. Announced on.
Elektrofy, we can't so elektrofy.
And that was a second. Group and also discage so the
the consequence of the First group is was kind of sort of a
learned helplusness because the the red did not have any
information about when the elektricity with a peer and also
they did not have any chancees to aboid it.
So when. They first going.
To just to be in the haveing the go at so the the.
Way that learned helplus as has classic.
We bin studed in the laboratory involved in escapable stressors
motion off and in escapable shock with means there's one
aspekt of that stressor that the animal can controll or not
control, which is win it stops. Right and when.
The Animal. Subjective to in and tens in
escapable straser that has a vere perfundeffekt on the
animal's physiology immunsystem sensitible to pain future
learning all kind of stop. Compared to anuals it
experience, exact we the same amanda shock shock that happens
it exact the the same time exact the the same intensity starts of
the same time ands of the same time, the ally difference is it
that annual do's not have the subjective sands that true
behagor up it's on it was ables of turn the shock off right so
that learn helplus is effekt i's bin demistrated hundreds of
times and hundreds it difference ways.
And it can also be a leviated by a bunchy different that one
thing you can do when an amlesman exposed in ascapable
shock and and it is prong to bekommen helplus in the phase of
future shocks one thing you can do is but for you start to all
thing you get the animal experes with the scapable shock one's
have in controll shock the offsider shock.
And animal condent be expose to in escapable shock that a can a
control and win you tested. You can find that the animes not
hoplus because the animal one's have control of shock that nix
it resilian in the in the face, a subsquint shocks and it
abaluses or provence for and helpluses there's up that you
can do that will also abalus larn helpluses one of the me is
to do andy think to decrease for and stress.
One of the big things that you can do to christ here in stress
is to signal aversive get the animal information about iter
the offset of the universive orgit the anmine information
about the onset of the version both the dos manepilations will
also a leviate one tulpluses and this is stop that in another
week, i'm going to be talking about this material in detail in
a lot of detail in calforn. In California unfortunity two
for right just. To stop buy but probly II have
is i there is an online. There is AA life to apportunity
to register for it online so you don't what it's go.
We're going to we're going to do a sign of feed right so play, so
people's also register for trily play send me the links i can't
going to to the shownotes. And prob people with like to at
hand so, but what i want it to at to the and i would.
It's just me. I just want.
To at something more to. The to the to the red in the
cage that i start it so this was the one red, the second group
and have the same cage, but the the shocks we're announced with
a little lamp or something and that was a third group and they
good even change the position to.
Not being shocked, so the shock was announced like in the second
group, but the red had the chance to not being shocked of
course. This was away of learning, the
red catreal is a hoi ok, the flories electrified i need to
change position to to run to security or not being harmed and
them interesting thing for me personally and is study was and
for sure you know it but maybeal interesting for alisoners.
That in the very beginning of the study, all the red's show,
the same symptoms and and had similar scores, talking about
cortisol etc. So Feeling the Stress, denn
three out the. Time the.
First group changed behavior because did not show the stress
symptoms stages became did int react to.
Like to the suffer that they when for they just we're in the
case, this is, this is the signal.
This is the signal shot group that the group that we're shot
the shot was in escape of a but they're at the warn korrekt, no
no they have no warning so they they're.
Not we're notable to know when they would be shocked and and
they but they have the frual to blood and celevia test.
They we're like stressed for out twenty for seven.
If i have a cricket in my mind, the second group with the signal
they had quide AA good time until being shocked, but there's
stress levels a level up when they wer's cute.
Ok, a shock is a had in 5 for free one shock so they we're
showing the systems like in the beginning when the light was on.
They started being stressed out and the third group they showed
similar symptoms when the light when on like ok shit is on the
fan, but now we have to change position for not being shocked
so they had not the same cortisol level in there blood
even do they showed very similar symptoms, so so what the
research is could see. The the rating group, two and
three who are both signaled to be shocked right away at similar
systems, but the third group could escape and felted much
better. So also to the third Group
escape or could it. A all they they.
Aboid it by escaping, so changing position in the cage,
they can't like i got a warning so on leving.
The room. There's it.
There's it there's a that's call of oidens responding escape in a
formel like loggal context is is something procise and differed
right. I'm can so, so the thirgup of
rats could a void, that's just escape shot they could a void
shot and II want to stand ok escape.
In a void is referance is. That mc sance and for the
frenchelizoners. Sella Distigs, Distangsion
Ontqua SAP EVT. I there to do a shoes differant
disting distangtomal differant tribian.
Sesa what Sesa. Grate.
I don't know I'm that'm. So you have left.
But we've we've can't probly comperty.
Quickly to an end, but but like me say something about that so
you talk to a little bit about you know one grup of raz was in
your in your example, one grup of raz was exposed to
unpredicable and in escapable shark.
Now it was no unpredictable completely right because
probible this rat's live in a homepage and for the experiments
there bro in to an operate conditioning change so the kuse
of contax tell the rat oh ship shock happenser, but i'm going
to be here for the next two ours and i do not know win that
chockers going to a car this produzes the most in tens kind
of anxidy. And it produces coping that
involved. Shoting.
Down and taking it and during it right, the second grup of rats
they can not a. Void or escape?
Shark but they know when it's coming and the abidance.
Is. From the cor if the work was
well done, now, one has to be carful.
And tulperding cortical steroid spikes because it's not like you
like at one grup of animals with one number for cortical steroid
labels. You like another number and you
can conplued conplued without other information that this
bunch of animals feals wears the not bunch of out.
Because cortical steeroids are not just a function of how much
to stress the animal feels there also a function of coping right
so at coping and coping as an independant function from
softring or not sofring right, but that's the word was welldone
and that there's evidance that for the two ours in the chamber,
the rass in the signal condition spät pritor time pierce of time
bevor the Signal. We're cortico steerright levels,
we're low and behaval indications we're that the dogs
what that the ras we're unhibit in the fell fine and then when
the signal cam that chocos going to.com then they got in the
state that the other ras we're in all the time right so one
right a look at that oneing signal is that it blogs the
contact to a kus. The animals no onger.
Thinking if. Animals think but but's, but it
an ends of mobile act times, the animals no onger thinking with
I'm in this chamber, I'm in big trubble the animals thinking
will the chambers ok what the combination of the chamber plus
the like or plus the ton then i have to get or it and i have to
beginn coping i have AI have learn to cope right, but the mom
of the chuck is off. I'm just back with the chamber
and i am safe, so the animal no's clearly win.
It's safeing win, it's not the first group of anamles can't
only go by the presents of the of the cuse in the chamber and
potesually by. Temporal or.
Timbase cuse about win shock, it's more likely and if cores
thermors the more anches the rads in the last group, not only
have warning. But they have in the cores of
training, they probly have two ways of controlling one was in
the really phases of a voidness learning when they were scaping
like goes on shot goes on animal trans of shot by shoteling
that's a have you're going to the otherside the cage is call
shoteling and in. So or me on the enemlate.
The uperts are. You to escape shock by move in a
wave from it that is an off to pervent learn helplist us, but
it's upsquently the animals developed.
We're just bonding as well we're a like goes on or tom goes on
the animals move a wave from we're shock, we'll take plays
and they every experance shock. This animals reliable
observations or that afro full flash to vains or sponing takes
plase fear labels are verylow and wellfare is very high.
So it's this to to make a. Circle some kind of
conditioning. A safety q.
Ja because because. In the in the context.
In the contact and which the anmals have a predictive pue,
telling them win shock, we'll take plays they there for
invosity by implication have a long perry drang, we're they
know there're sex the animal who successly shutles there two as a
dealing with that experimental i can deside to give the animal a
marke that's as you have successly avid.
But eben if i don't do that that just not mean that safety kus do
not play a roll. There's a gratulate evidance
that the safety kus that the animal creates for it self
meaning in the pass will i have shut up and move my lex and no
that i change my location i have not fill shark there for the
feedback kus from skeletal moman becom safety kus.
In the samway it in my, my example for this is i'ride
bottercycles i'ride what in englisch, we're cold dirtbike,
so it's you're like motocross bikes and dürro bikes and so
like that so you crash a lot it hurts used the speed are lo so
you get backup and you get back in your motorcycle and ride what
that means is that if i'm the go shate a particular diffical
plate on a tracker a trial. And I don't so sucessly in the
pass, i know that feeling of going on my motorcycle and all
will be well. I will Not crash, i will not
feel pane and also i will feel exaltation because i have don't
something difficult well right los are feed back.
You's. Talking to me and becoming
positive reinforces of my behave so what I'm end to do think to
you. Is the idea that mabi a rat at
very highlables of a vains response, it go's hangs out
relaxes grooms that's the stop rats do a go's, oh, there's
that's light I'm in a shadel I've don't get I'm sucessal my
feed back, he's tell me I'm sucessal got i love a vaiding
it's fuck it grey i'd I've going it i be a power for.
One, I'm so good. It that's right and that's call
it in laboratories. That it's good the state of
being and which the animal shows there a high levels of coping is
some time's called mastery. I'm makeing gasses about what
Mastery feels like for red, I don't know what I can time what
red Mastery feels like for me and the times win i feel the
greatest. So the positive in fors but
rewarding value as a result of demistrating mastery is one.
I'm a little in danger because i'm do in something that can get
me hot and this r as i say and some and r this r the experses
and i live that I'm remember the mos right right in the
motorcycle going fast not crashing going down the river in
my kiak not have in this swim out of it.
Right like doing it right, so it's not just that i get to the
palmic go. Oh, i don't get her, i do the
right, think it the right time with my boot and my paddle and i
go that's what i do this sport that's white row five outers up
in the mountains that's what i god this morning, that's what i
god in this sue because the water so call that's what i do
it i get in it get because it's an out of to re for me to learn
to develup and the practice mastery and mastery feels
fucking go. Right and what what I'm implying
to you and suggesting they be the case is that mastery feels
good for animals is well, and that master of this kind is
onlyed of out win there are risks.
Is yeah, I'm lacking of the of aquote that I've red in one of
robert supporskis books. Code behave and you're fusure
very will aware of that there is a graph of it.
We're it's about, we're a rain forsons catchles and and t what
is it it's like a calculated risk that people go to casinos
and and play with this things because it's very well known
what could happen and what could not happen and that's the thrill
of it also noing. What?
My what what what good. Things or it as you as you I'm
really haveing problems in thinking english, but the it's
it's it's gamling. Behave there is a off and
interped it's strickly in terms of randomery in forcement and
randomery in forcement is certly certly ralaba to the probalance
of gamling but. There are complex, physiological
and also cargon effectors one of things that suppolski points out
is that enthessip to a q's the beginn to be com proxies for
rean forcer's so and enthessipor to AQ that teles me i'm about to
be rean fors begins to in a way play the.
Roll of the rean forcer bevored. A rifes.
Right, it's not just supper of nector that the reanforcer's
going to have and it's stars of a com and end of in it self and
then there also complicated human dynamics and cargin of
dynamics about that that i you of gaming a hi that i you
unexpected for war versus I'm lousing other a so a lot of are
a complex psychology can's in a play a people it understand that
a study gamling. Think about the lot ofariables
at once, it's not is simple, just as randomineforcement also
you're really in a gamling have it i think randomineforcement is
really really important to get the gamling going, but then
later on i don't think gamling is that socerity main tane but
nothing but low probibility hi that i rewards it's main tane by
a the prozess is what like a bitch or constroning i'gansist
up. Gut, i have a lot of take.
Aways from from this conversation, so thank you so
much for taking the time last but not least i have this
question from my previous guest. So I'm all was asking makeest to
ask question for the next one, not knowing who it is or who it
will be and i last i that's very good i like that.
Grate, Grate, so my last guest. Was apart from the conversations
between Chris and me was magister Carl weissenbacher he's
also veterinarian or vet and he's in George of the prüf und
Koordinierungsstelle of the Messely Institute at the Vetmet
University in Vienna, so they or basically responsible for the
federal tests for animal verithere it RS.
Also dog train up but. He's more doing.
Dogs cool and Puppy Training etc.
What he's haveing in he's ont club what he's a grate think we
need more people like that in the world.
Right train wetter in and's trends like all of just who are
also practitioners he's the sure but right that i will tast for
sure it was a grate, it was a grate conversation.
I will send you to link it's german do, but they be you you
get the feeling. So he's a question was a not
knowing would will be and II hope the translation in gets the
point, so it's it. I just ready to you probably
definity the fundamental coexistance in society can be
improved bove in terms of human, human and human animal
interactions and what influences can we have as individuals on
this. So wie's question is how can we
influence? The und das ist ihre Frage für
mich this. Is it?
Ok. The the first the first is to
not mistake that i'm you know a talk specifically about dogs and
dog track. The first is not to mistake the
dog for something that he's not that's remember what the dog is
which is a hilly domesticated selective bread and sessral
predator with the organs of milf.
And also with the organs of behavior, still intact to engage
and predator behavior, social aggressive and and social
competitive and aggressive behavior behavior of all kinds,
the lifeful behavior lovel b behavior and also far from the
lifeful and far and far from lovel b behavior i so that's be
acured about with the dogs or. Respectum for what they are also
love them for what they are because they disrerved as
marvels of nature and also we make are soles better in loving
them eving when they can't be far back and they can't be at
the call back i think and only be dogs, but we make are soles
better, but i treating them fairly and the best of we posly
can and by loving them right so a number one that's not mistake
what they are next that's be com knowled will.
About what Science reallieses not just dependance about about
how to mo successly word with there behater and also how
to.com the conclusions about what wellfare is for a do what
stress is for a do and then also that's make fortful.
Decisions. About the Harms.
That.com. First of all from certan kinds
of Training. What is what Certan Community's
in Dog Training love the talk about is the arms of certan
kinds of training, but they don't tend a talk about the homs
of failing to get the dog trained right.
There's a cost. There there's a home there, so
that's informer selbst about behador that's informer selbst
about the Dogs. That's informer's about what
science ses about learning behador and and findly that's be
thaful about the entire situation and mic the offal
decisions about ok II can pete and agility and order to get
this one exercise i can mic my dog faster and i can bekommen
more like to win atrophy if i put very much pressure right
here to make just the right performance.
It's bekomms. Aquestion is it is it?
Ethicly want it to put prusure on your dog to make this jump a
little more korrekt to make your sof a little more sucess von
competition. I don't know it's some think we
can talk about right because. Because if i put a mal a lot of
a trubble in to training my dog, it means it.
My Dog has a very bitch days, we're in a rat will them all
they long and i spend all we can with them and sofort and so all
of this has to be factored in to weather, not it's attic leed the
fensible for me to but prusion on what it the end of the day
it's just a trophy samed off that's.
Say that the. Predatory Instinct that I us to
drive the dogs performance. In agility because it the andy
get's to by something that's say that that bekomme's at touch to
traffic of vehicles on the highway you know have a colomet
of for my house. That's say it at bekommen's
attracted to dear in the what's, that's it bekommen's attracted
to it it bekommen's at touch to my next door nabors fideral song
now if. I have away.
Of Controlling and korrekt in this behave of that evolve's
prusure is the calculus different now and not is I'm not
talking about walking Dogs. No is I'm not sing that that
ethics balance to the training of companion Dogs and pets with
the ethics or different for Walking Dogs, no Ethics or
ethics, what what changes is the steaks.
The Harms of not geting the Dog trained if you're Training a
certan Kind of Walking Dog and you're massed up people dye if
you're training unother kind of company dog and you're massed up
some times, it's a or trivial my stick or a trivial fill or if
you're training in agility, maybe don't win the title but on
the other hand if you're agility was a trick that shase the
trafic on the highway, maybe your fill your in training kills
the dog. And in my opinion, this simplice
two things one of them is that the FX of using prussure or not
using prussure are the term and by the outcome of the training
what or the steaks and that the steaks.
Can be very. Hi for Company Dogs, not just
Walking Dogs. Rate rate we're anize onser i
will sentim the link to. This show and to you're onser
and so now it's about you what is you're question to the
unknown guest? Well, that's get me get me.
Just a moment you can. You can't kind out when you add
it for the interview you can you can't kind out me going to me
so. No, it's it's good.
I like the thinker posting. And I'm Trend the think Weather.
A fills offical question we're. Be attacking to go avery.
Direction. Ok, I'm going to.
I me see i me think about this ok, i'm in a Post.
I'm in a Poster questure. So so, this is this is aquestion
to which i have in it's not technical.
It's more at the call, it's more as a do with the philosity of
dog, keeping and training so who have a coms on have to me
probible as a point of you on as but i reasonly talk to some
buddy who engage in the discussion about the dialektic
between Curry positive Dog Training versus all the Dog
Training. And one of my friend you was
talking to this person. The person assentally set that
it. Is.
Inproper on affical inhumane to us pressure and dog training
because the dog can out consent to be involve in the situation.
Wie sagt man consent auf Deutsch?
I have. To figure it out, kind is.
That's my ich. Ich gebe meine my agreement to
what is going to have II I'm. Concent it.
I have a greet ja ok so, so so, so, You Can't you, you can't us
persure and dog training because i can see the Dogs consent one I
Profite foo what the dog can a Profite consent.
To unaversit procedure, this is the this is essential the
question that was posted to my fran he have an answer i have an
answer that's see what your next interview subject ses about what
to they think about the issue of can a dog give concept do train
dogs give concept should i limit myself only two things behave or
training proceeders to which the dog gives is concept.
Or consut Rate. I will love to ask this or for
what this question to are next guest onestly i have know clue
yet to it will be so I've just had a series of quad of your
episodes now probly they will be a little break, but i will
definity like you know who it will be and i will send you the
link to that episode so ok and before we.
Go that me say. And the on France.
We'll game me not PC, you're a grat.com of franceay they pass
as a pur conductation on franceay mishes fair covulco i
was going to say just you that i have to do english was was
sufficient for the axly no that i just spare covultron Glay lay
Spectator Lay lay conquerant. Because what's on glay a sufis
on for my compunker just bare the wrong contray was personal
Mont don't have an new oh what oh of what.
I did not it and the stand everything but i will that's not
all like is my franchise so bad but hofly.
Hofly they got the point i because i start it.
II. Start A Forest in German Dog
Training and then in the mid adies I've can interested and
french dog training and the french.
The French Sinofeel Lay Sinofeel Frances A Franca von Saint Prey
Domonque. Verinice verinice a.
Mabi I Hope we will have to time talk about do's experience is
and adventure. Of you and being in in Europe
trying out and in finding out more about different kind of
sports and also what effects different sports have on the
working dog field in alls and nowadays because of the
different aspekts in frenring belgumring kan pv igp i would be
very interested about that, but we will find a new date.
Problem Ok and if if Andy Buddy. If andy of your viewers or
lizeners with like to here about the kindalgie symposium that
will take play and just on the wickers so how what one think
all do is all just say it is going to be in Santa rosa,
California at the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers.
So if you go to the website for the Michael LS school, you just
see what you need to to find the details in the faxs about the
event you can register to bridgespate in the event online,
and if you do so have to word, you'll get a video tape of the
entire event as well, it's a five day five days symposy well
we'll talk about the lot is kind of and michael and michael and
forest. Mickey will do demonstrations
design to. Show the application of the
signed evic and the behavior princibles that i discos in dog
train and also many ethical and and that you judgment's
surraning dog training as well and then also opervite you with
a more execed link, and if you can get that out to people that
they can they can us it to think out was going of the samener
we's just have an nother one this events, it's unclear we're
will have an at this point, but we's just have another this in a
prolot nexture. Awesome, so please send mit a
link i. Will put it to the shownotes i
will also Highlight it. I can not recommended in nuth, i
had only one morning, but i'm i really regretted having to leaf
so early this summer so Forever one who hast a chance to
participate go ahead and register for this is they're
anything elsted you would like to highlight.
Stued not think in all it's been thank you for.
Invite in me on it's been a grate pleasure.
I hope i hope to we get it is a chance is spensum time together
i love to what you work to taked off and it's i gear berry
thatful and I'd really like to a chance alarm some stop from you,
oh that's on the grate. Maybe.
I's end you some of the clips here and there and and and i'm
so for you're the kind of grate. So for everyone.
Listening, i hope you like to this much is i did.
If so let us no send us a comment give us a rating and
also. Share this with.
Your friends and kolleg so that more people get more different
forts and opinions about the ways of training, dogs and
people. Ja, thank you so much.
And all the best, no cursing all mo's no cursing in this all mo's
no cursing if you comed. To a symposium if you comed to a
symposium, there's going to be all out a cosing for shoe.
All right so enjoy your day all the best not see you.
Soon hope for the buby thank you.
I'll by do See you so Goodbye. Was?