So the puppy stayed there until 9 weeks old.
And when we arrived there, I was like, where where am I?
I mean, what's happening? Because it was just a guy living
in a trailer, you know, with a little backyard there.
And there was this like little fence on on, just on the bricks.
And the puppies were there. Two puppies, two puppies were
left. And no toys.
Nothing. Just totally, totally nothing.
And he said, like, really, you know, openly, like I haven't
done anything with these pups. I haven't even played with them.
I I didn't take them and were nothing.
I was like, OK, that's. Crazy.
But you know, I looked at this puppy and I couldn't really say
anything bad about it. It was really, you know, happy
to see us, very social. We took out and he was, you
know, exploring the environment. Everything was fine.
And he told me one thing that since he hasn't done anything
with these pups, it's what I see.
It's pure genetics. And you know, on one hand it's
like it made me think that there is something in that, you know,
because if if you see a puppy like that, very open headed and
every carriages and very like social and and so on.
But this is, as you say, like what would it be if the
socialization phase was made correctly before?
It would be fantastic right now. So, and I and I, I would bear to
disagree that it's not pure genetics because the puppies
already 9 weeks old. So he has learned and and he
maybe he hasn't learned a lot of negative things because he
wasn't exposed to a lot of stressors.
You know, there was the sister of the puppy that two puppies
were left. Yeah.
And the sister was, when we approached this fence with these
pups, the male that I have, he was, you know, who was jumping
up like, oh hello, hello, you know, happy to see you and
everything. And the the sister, on the other
hand, she was like backing up and you know, the tail under
her, she was quite, you know, not happy see us quite scared.
I was like just hoping that this this puppy that was jumping that
this is the male. Otherwise I wouldn't take it.
But still, I was like, you know, so many years doing this, like
teaching people and how you should, how.
To approach and everything. And then you go, yeah, I swear
to to a guy living in a trailer and picking up a pup, you know,
I was like, may I see the female, the mother of the pups?
And he was like, ah, no, no, no. She's been sold already.
Oh, wow. And then I just, you know, I
looked at Eric and I was like, this is all on you.
You know, I just trust. You.
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Now it's such an interesting topic, so for sure we will.
Have some more chance to talk about that, but I already
started the recording, so we can use that as well.
Let's put up the light, Sure. Welcome everyone to another
episode of. Kuno Talk by Kuno Tech and today
I have the pleasure talking to I would say a good friend, even
though we haven't met many times.
But yeah, she's a great person. I noticed her the first time, I
think years ago when something was set up called the Freeze
Conference, which unfortunately in the end never took place due
to Corona etc. But we were in touch and also
connected or also networked throughout the SWDI.
And then we got invited to Poland to some search and rescue
training and some vodka tastings and many more.
Fun stuff. Yeah, and since then we are in
touch. We even share for two of our
dogs the same breeder in the Netherlands.
And I'm really curious to talk with her a little bit more about
herself because there are some really interesting parts in her
bio that yeah, are are kind of outstanding, I think.
And hi, Yagna, Yagna Gill and. I I I didn't know to what to
connect you with because when when I took a look on your
Facebook profile it was like. Tattoo, European working cannon,
tall working cannon from that Ilma Freeze conference in the
past blah blah. So there there are many many
companies, projects, organizations that you're in.
And once again hello good morning, thanks for taking the
time and please put some light into the fog of of of me
describing your person. Maybe you can do that better
than me. Well, hello, Flo.
Most importantly, thank you so much for inviting me.
I I must say that I was so surprised that you invited me
because I, you know, I always think about myself like I I'm
just like, you know, you have spoken to so many big names and
so many great trainers and great personalities and like, you
know, big people in this dog industry.
I would never like think about myself like that.
So I was really surprised. A good way of course that you
invited me, which is, which is really nice and I appreciate
that. So thank you so much about that
you thought about. Me.
You're you're on my lists for for many months already, so Oh
my. God was just a matter of time.
Yeah. So I'm stressing a little bit,
but yeah, hopefully, hopefully, maybe I will say something
interesting. I'll try for.
Sure, for sure. As long as the puppy allows us
to, I will do my best. So answering your question well
yes, I we haven't really met a lot of times.
I think we met only once like in person.
But I have also known you for a long time through like
networking. I I was you going to the day
taking similar courses. So I think that our path is
somehow similar on how we, you know dig in into this, into this
dog training thing, which is really nice because I don't
really know a lot of people who would have a similar like
education path and way to to to train dogs and so on.
So answering your question will yes, I have a few projects going
on. My first project is Fundata
IRMA. This is the NGO organization I
set up in 2012. I think it's been over 10 years
right now. And this is a search and rescue
organization. Well originally it has been
purely dedicated for search and rescue dogs, okay.
So the I need to go back a little bit in time.
Sure, sure. So my background in training the
dogs in working with dogs in doing that is search and rescue.
So this is basically the first area that I have ever get in and
this is how my you know my adventure with dogs started.
So back when I had my first dog it was a Malinois which
unfortunately it didn't make it to search and rescue but that
was because before that I was looking into Munduring but the
puppy it was strictly selected for the biting purposes.
But then I got interested into search and rescue.
So yeah, the dog didn't really wasn't suitable for that.
But this is the story. And yeah, so I went into the
search and rescue. I got the first dogs and then I
established the organization just to you know to to fund to
do the fundraising to get money to support different actions.
Poland, the search and rescue is divided into like two ways.
So you have the professional search and rescue which is in
the National Fire brigade. So the National Fire brigade is
the one which is responsible when the people well actually
when people get lost in the forest this is the police that
is responsible. But yes, the fire brigade is the
one that has docks, the search so often they are asked to go
and help in. Finding people and when we have
the disasters like you know, catastrophes and different
disasters, this is also the National Fire brigade which is
responsible to to use the dogs there and they have the dogs and
they're being paid for that. But also we have a lot of
volunteer organizations, so people who are basically
spending their own time and they're willing to support these
actions both in the area field and both in the rubbles.
So I wanted to have such an organization so that we could
support these actions and that was the reason why the EMA
Foundation was set up. But you know, the time went by,
my education went by also and at the time I started to take
interest in also other fields, not only search and rescue.
So this is actually when I first got into Sweden and started to
look at some detection and different kinds of some
detection and then I thought that it would be wise to spread
a little bit the specialties of the organization.
So right now the the foundation is to support working dogs in
general. So all kinds of working dogs, we
do support that. And our last I think quite big
project that we've been doing that is still going on is the
support of working dogs in Ukraine that we did together
with Paul Bunker and Katianstra Katserafina.
Yeah, we were in in July, the first time we were we went to
Ukraine and now we are scheduled to go there in November.
And this is also done via that foundation.
So this is what the foundation does, but this is NGO, so we
have no profit out of that. This is just, you know,
supporting case and funding, but I also have to do something you
know, to to. Make a living exactly.
So I set up a company for working docs, TWD group.
And this is the company that is doing basically the same stuff
but for money. So we train docs, we do
different kind of courses, provide different kind of
organization with the main thought and goal to train
working ducks. So basically for the uniformed
services but also for the civilians.
This is also quite complicated, maybe not complicated, but not
so easy here in Poland, but I think we will get that later in
the conversation. So yes, these are my like 2 main
tasks that I'm doing, The foundation supporting, and also
the company which is providing education, training dogs,
selling dogs and yeah, living out of that.
Great. And also you have this creative
part in your life between tattoos.
Yes, I'm also doing the tattoos and, but this is my extra job
and the reason why I went into that is that, you know when the
COVID stroke and the lockdown came and we all got stuck in our
houses. Since I live on my own only with
my dogs, I just figure out that at one point I was just
overwhelmed with the dogs. Everything was about the dogs
that I was doing. So people that I was talking to,
it was always about the dogs. My, you know, business was only
about the dogs. I was surrounded only about the
dogs. And there, you know, it came a
time when I started to feel a little bit overwhelmed by that
and I thought that how to say that that I'm being burned out
a. Little bit.
So I thought that it's not good and it would be good to have
something else that would give you, you know, like a fresh air
and a possibility to meet other people, to speak about something
else. So I thought about taking a
course in the tattoo, and I did. The people that I work with
right now were, are actually the people who gave me the
education, the tattoos. So they let me stay with them in
the studio, which I'm really thankful for their amazing guys.
And, you know, it was funny because the first times when I
went there, I was so I was feeling so weird because it was
like, wow, you know, there's a world outside.
There. It's outside of the candle.
I mean, you know, people are speaking about other things,
about politics and about like random.
They are not really interested in the talks.
So I was like very surprised actually.
And this is something that gives me this like break and let him
give this like balance, you know, mental hygiene between the
dogs and all these also disadvantages that come with it
and just having this other part of the social life.
So yeah, I really enjoyed it. That's really cool.
Have you studied biology or veterinary, or how did you get
into the dog thing or what have you been doing before that?
Yeah, I've been doing many things.
So I did study. I studied architecture.
I studied it in England many, many years ago.
Well, I started it in England, but then I moved to Poland, back
to Poland, and I continued it in Poland in Falls 9 and the
polytechnics. But because of different
circumstances, I had to take a break and I never get back.
So I never, I never graduated from the architecture and the
dogs, actually, you know, I come from a house where we always,
always had a lot of dogs. My mom is a person, she's a dog
lover and we had like different breeds, a lot of dogs, a lot of
different animals, not only dogs.
And when I moved out to to to go and study, I just thought that
it would be nice to have a dog to have to keep you company.
And I bought my first dog and it was a rod, rod Finder.
And now because we had rod finders back then and it came
quite naturally because since I got this puppy, I thought it
would be good to do something with it.
So I, you know, I went to different basic courses like
puppy kindergartens and stuff like that.
I met different people, people who were engaged in sports, in
IPO like then I GP I think now loading.
So it came quite naturally. I just started doing different
stuff with my dog and at one point I met people from the
search and rescue like group. And yeah, I was just watching
what they're doing and they, I had the Malinois back then and
they thought that this Malinois is really nice and maybe I could
try and you know, educated him in that direction.
And this is how it started. So I started doing that and I
gradually, you know, got sucked in and since it didn't work out
with the with the university, I just at one point figure out
that, you know, I like doing that.
I really enjoy working with dogs.
It gave me, it still gives me a lot of satisfaction and I just
continued. So at one point I just gave up
on on pushing the architecture. It was also, you know, the
architecture thing. It was that, you know, I'm kind
of a person that if I, if I have to do something and put myself
into that like 100%, it really has to be my passion.
I really have to be interested in that.
And I thought at one point with the architecture that, you know,
I don't really see myself working from 9:00 to 5:00 in a
office, in an office, putting, you know, toilets into the
AutoCAD program and working for someone else's project.
But on the other hand, I also didn't feel this architecture so
much that I could put myself like fooling into that.
Because if you want to make a career as an architect, you
really have to, you know, give all of yourself into that.
You need to take part in competitions.
You need to be, you know, interested in that and and just
it has to be your passion. Otherwise you will be just left
as a worker working for on projects and putting these
toilets into out the cat how we say.
And I never wanted like my future to look like that.
So I thought that it doesn't really make sense for me to
continue because I will never ever make a career as a big
night in car architecture because it just wasn't my thing.
So I wasn't really feeling bad about skipping it and I went to
docs and this is how it started my parents were not very happy
about. That interesting, Yeah.
There there are some similarities to to what I did.
I did graphic designs and communication design and
graphic, Yeah, and I also didn't finish.
I started with dogs then OK Were the reasons similar to mine?
No, I don't. I don't think so actually I I
really liked doing that I I just had some development issues like
then I was on the peak of my poverty.
So I was know as as as males we we get there when we're a little
bit older and maybe probably we never get out that was around 20
and then I. It's not about me today.
But then I I quit school actually.
And so this was not university. It was a prolonged school
education for having the normal school degree plus the the fully
job education and and then I started as a paramedic at Red
Cross and then I start with with those but listen to.
Your podcast. I don't remember with whom it
was, but I can check it out. I have it opened actually.
Okay, that was the Just wait a second, Nick Banger.
Yeah, I've listened to that when I was in Bosnia a couple of
weeks ago. Yeah, I'm quite familiar with
your background. Good.
Nick is also a great guy, so I really appreciated him to reach
out to me. Back then so but now back to you
so that's what you did before the dogs.
Then you started out with dogs, wanted to do some wonder ring
then started with search and rescue etc.
And many years later I suggest or I I I I guess I noticed you
because of the freeze conference.
So how did that start? And and I think also come again,
I mean, how did that happen? But it never happened.
Yes, unfortunately Priest conference, yes, so many years
later when I, you know a couple of years ago, I think that was
2017, I got the opportunity to cooperate to work with the
Special Forces in Poland which really opened my ways to many
different names and many different people and it really
like gave me a lot of opportunities and.
That was military special forces, military Polish special
forces, grom and they took a course with the as the day back
then. And I was involved in that.
I was organizing it. So that's how I, you know, met
all these guys. And I also met the former
commander of the Canine division in the Special Forces in Gromme.
And I got friends with him. And you know, at one point we
started thinking that it would be nice that to to come up with
some kind of a conference, like a big event to gather different
people from all around the world, like big names and you
know, big specialists and since Puval, that's his name, that's
his nickname, did these kinds of conferences before.
But just about this, like special forces, not only in the
doc like direction, we thought that it would be good to come up
together and try to organize it. So we managed to find a group of
people to make it together because it's really hard to find
such a big event on your own. And since Paul is a yeah, he
was, he is very experienced in this kind of actions.
He agreed to help. So that's how it we came with
this idea and I mean the project was very promising.
We really had a lot of names or invited.
We had all the like the schedule and the timetable, the topics,
everything was ready, but then we had to postpone it once
because it turned out that the we were like too short in time
to to make it happen so. We postpone so for for the
people who can't remember or didn't didn't know about it and
you can compare it with the the the hits conference for example
in in the US and you had people like of course Jens Frank,
Tobias Gustafson but also Pat Nolan I think yet, yet did you
have Nathan Hall. As well lowering the.
Graph exactly so many big names, also some of them that you can
find now in the podcast, but I was like really eager to go
there and back then I was still living in Tior.
But still, of course, where did you want to to to make it
happen? It's a very hotel, very closely,
exactly, yeah. That so and and still it would
have been closer of course to to my place than than going to the
US. So I think many people really
hope to to have it happen. So the first the first date was
supposed to happen in December, but we thought that, you know,
first of all it was. But it was December 1818, Yes No
19. 1919, yes, because sure it's likely the COVID strong exactly,
yes. So we thought that first of all
we had two short time notice and we were we were not ready with
that. But then we thought that it
would be nicer to make it happen in spring, nicer weather.
So also for the people that come to Poland they could combine it
with like vacation and just a better season to do that.
So we postponed it to May and we were fully ready.
So everything was ready. We had all the people signed up,
so we had the minimum of the participants to make that
happen. We were already looking for the
flight tickets to buy for the speakers.
But then the COVID stroke in March and we were in the
beginnings, no one really knew how it will develop.
So we didn't know. Like this is just, you know, for
a week, for two weeks, maybe month.
In April everything will be back to normal.
So we aren't really waiting to to cancel that because there was
just a big question mark like what will happen in May.
So we were waiting like for a month to to decide what to do.
But then you know it was the middle of April, something like
that. And we thought that Nah we just
have to cancel it because it was there was like no sense in
postponing that since we we did was going to are we going to
survive or are we going to you know all die.
So we just we just post we just cancelled that.
And you know other thing was that the people who were engaged
in that project and I mean the guys who were, I'm sorry about
him, never mind the guys who were helping out with the
website and with all these technical like side of the
event, they were not dog people. They were just like engineers,
informatics or who were friends of of ours, but they were not
interested in that at all. So they also felt that like we
we don't really want to do that anymore, you know because it
costs us a lot of time, it costs us a lot of effort.
It's like it's not happening for the second time in a row.
So we thought that like, it doesn't really, There was no
desire from the whole group to make it happen in the future.
So this is how the project just died unfortunately, because if
not for the COVID, I'm sure it would be an amazing event.
Definitely, yeah. But I mean, now the idea is so
slow. Maybe you?
Can we thought about that? We thought about it many times
to try to. Organize something comparable.
But as we all know, it's it's such a big effort to make things
like this happen, to plan it and to invite the people to organize
everything, find the location that's affordable and then you
have to think about, you know, everything like translators,
people who will have the transport.
It's a it's a really big, you know, project and to do that on
your own, it's impossible. Yeah.
And you have to start to plan so early and you don't know what's
going to happen. And then, you know you are
receiving the money that you should be able to cover all the
costs with. But you can't really spend it
because you can't predict the future.
So you don't want to be left at the point that you bought all
the tickets, you bought everything, You spend the money
that you received, and then you have to give the money back, You
know, Yeah, I have anymore. So it's also risky and.
The very risky I I was having in the first weekend of Corona, it
would have been the first. So I'm sorry, Siri is talking to
me. The first weekend of Corona
would have been virtual with Tobias Gustafson at my place,
and it would have been three days and.
There was I think 35 people signed in from the UK to Greece.
All would have come and have already started to travel to
Tiolins book and and then it didn't happen.
I mean this is a very small amount of people but I was
really organizing everything myself and it was I I it was
frightening. I I didn't know what to do
because the the the airplane tickets were booked.
And the the boss of the hotel called me and said every
everyone is signing off and and of course he would have had 30
guests plus of course after a few weeks we realized that this
was a global issue and he wasn't angry anymore.
But that was a big thing for. Yeah, yeah.
It was really stressful. I had this also finds quite
stressful situation in. I think I was back in May, I was
planning the search and rescue workshops with my colleagues
from Sweden. I do that like twice a year.
I try to do that twice a year here in Poland and we were set
up for June and I had you know, people signed up and everything
and I even bought the plane tickets so everything was ready.
But then there was an accident because Doc of one of the girl
of a friend of mine from Sweden had an accident and it broke
itself. And they couldn't come.
They just couldn't come because it was quite serious.
So they really had to, you know, have a lot of surgeries, and the
dog couldn't be left alone. And so they just couldn't come.
And I was like, I mean, you know, what's going to happen
now? Are the people going to
understand that and be able to move the date to for the fall
the same year or they quit and they will like you know want to
get the money back. But I have already paid for
everything so I I don't like this kind of situations because
yeah, it's risky. You can be left like you know
also having to pay for that even though it's your fault.
And also one more thing about the freeze is that you know
since Pouval you had a lot of experience before doing this
kind of conferences. But also I have spoken to quite
many people about who who did the such kind of events.
The thought was not a very nice thought but I think a real one
is that you know with this kind of events you it really, as we
said it requires a lot of effort a lot of energy a lot of
planning and just it takes a lot of your life actually but the
result of that So what you take out of that is not really how to
say that you don't really get much out of that in the end
organizer and but I'm speaking about the experiences of the
people who have held such events is that the amount of effort and
the amount of planning and everything that you put to make
it happen it's not really worth to what you are you know getting
back I mean the whole networking and meeting all these things to
that it's it's like you know priceless but it doesn't really
lead to anything further. So it doesn't.
It's just, you know, a big like meeting of nice people.
But there's nothing after that that.
So you are not really like how to say that you are not really
getting any business opportunities after that.
You don't really develop your career after that.
You don't get any projects after that.
It's just that you organize a nice event, you have this couple
of days meeting, you of course do networking, but that's it.
And the question was like with every people that I talked about
that is it worth it? I mean the the thought of these
people was always, yeah, just let someone else make it happen.
I would just go and be a participant and get everything
out of that the same as organizer does, but let the
organizer, the person do all these very stressful things and
very time taking things and so. On, yeah, and there is a reason
why there is. Educations for this that last
for several years to become an event manager and to learn how
to organize these things. Because, you know, it starts
with the bottle of water on each table to to toilets that work
and to signings to find the the right event room, etc.
It's. It's so much to think about and
of course everything goes wrong. It's your form, yes, the full
responsibility. So and as I said you, you need
to think about what you want to get out of that event.
Why are you doing that? Do you like, do you have any
plan, like what do you want to achieve?
Because if you just want to, you know, go and meet a bunch of
nice people, then goes, I mean, you know, this conference has
happened around the world. Just go there and be a
participant and you will be even.
You will get more out of that probably because you will be
free all the time and you will not be, you know, overwhelmed
with taking care of things and not being able to actually sit
there and listen to these people because probably will not.
You will have to arrange at this time.
Exactly. So from the organizer's point of
view, it's it's just pointless. I'm sorry to say that because I
hope you don't get me wrong, because of course it's it's not
pointless to to to meet and do all the networking.
But but if you are an only organizer in the end you get
like the least part of that. And since it doesn't really give
you any you know, contract opportunities, any possibilities
to to be part of any projects, any like business development,
you come to a point when you are thinking like so what's the
point like why should I bother? Why should I spend my time, my
money, my risk, my finances, do all of that If that's just you
know going to happen for two days and then everybody goes
home and forgets about that and there's nothing you know that
goes further beyond that. I think it's that was also one
of the reasons why we gave up on that and I still think so it's I
know it's not very nice so. I understand it, it's real.
And I don't know if I would want to try and organize such an
event right now, at least maybe. But right now I don't really see
the point, especially here in Poland.
Especially here in Poland, I think it's you know, apart from
taking some nice photos with with the people and do the
meeting and networking it it for me it wouldn't give me anything
more. I mean, I think I get more from
traveling, from meeting people at their places, from taking
part in the courses in workshops rather than bringing people here
to Poland. Because also my experience,
which is not nice but it's real, is that, you know, when you
invite people, when you maybe I put it in other words, you do
your thing, so you travel you, you know, spend your money,
spend your time to go around the world to meet people, to make
friends with them. And you just put a lot of effort
into doing that to like working on your networking site and then
you invite them here. And what happens is that you are
like giving these people, you know, on an open, on an open
plate to others. And then suddenly you wake up
and you see that you know you are somewhere, you know, left
out of that because other people are just going straight to to
these guys and it's really thinking about you anymore.
And you are just, you know, the one who did the old hard work,
brought these people here. And then you are like, you know,
we don't need you anymore. So yes.
Yes. And that's very honest, I don't
know, I don't know it's if that's the case in your country,
but I unfortunately I do experience that here.
And this is also why it discourages me quite a lot from
inviting people here to Poland, from including this kind of
events, because it's it's risky for myself this way.
Yeah, I don't mean like understood in a bad way.
No, no, I totally get it. So what I've learned for myself
was that. And that's very interesting
because I also think that there is a certain attitude that, for
example, you and I share and many of the other people that I
talked with in the podcast and of course also apart from the
podcast. So there is a certain attitude
that we take. Challenges that others wouldn't
take just to gain some knowledge.
So we travel or I travel from Austria to Sweden.
It's it's it's more than 28 hours of travel just to be there
for 3.5 days to to train and talk.
Yeah to train and talk and then travel straight back.
That's what I do for a training with with one of my trainers
and. And we then I I traveled to
Italy and each month one time for nine months in a row just to
train to be as that's what I was my first contact with with the
SWDI. Before that I was still in
school. I I had a little Fiat Punto 3
doors. Like like yeah, little.
A little nutshell on wheels. And I I started to travel five
hours every month to travel here to the eastern part of Austria
because here where all the the the the trainer courses in
education and and no one else did all those things.
So I don't really know many people who who who do that.
So many people who don't do that ask us to invite Cameron Jens
PET et cetera. And.
You have to do this all you know.
You organized. Yeah, yeah, sure.
But I so I invited, I invited those people.
But then so when I always, when I did those things, when I did
the traveling, etc, I wanted to get the most out of it.
So I was really serious about gaining knowledge, etc.
And what I have experienced from people who just tried to to take
what it served on the silver plate is that yes, they are
here, they consume, they pay for it, but it's not a big effort
for them. And you don't really hear too
much afterwards from many of them, not from everyone.
Because of course there are also some high class attendees at
those workshops that it's really fun to network with.
But I think for us taking the efforts going there was a real
proof to our attitude on how we. But this is also, you know, what
I was trying to say about the conference is that you do the
hard work, you travel, you don't just send an e-mail to a random
guy and you have to get the networking done, your part done.
And then, yes, people just come. They consume, and they go.
But it's still good. But what happens also quite
often is that they come and they try to connect.
They try to push you away and get straight to that person and
to use your platform. Exactly.
It's also what happens, and that unfortunately happens not only
from individuals, but also from the units and so on.
I thought actually I was talking to Kat Yantra today about that.
And I told her that, you know, I'm not really so eager anymore
to invite people over to Poland. People that I know, that I, you
know, I respect and I want to learn from.
I'd rather go there and learn and then come here and and you
know, just do that on my own. Because if I invite them here.
I do the all the hard work and I just give my contacts away for
free and they people just use it.
They they you know they don't care about you anymore.
They will just not all of them. Of course I generalize but but
it does happen. And then you are just sitting
there and thinking like why do I even do all of that?
Why do I travel? Why do I spend my time, my
money? Why do I put all of that effort
if in the end I'm just like being kicked out and?
Just ignore it and you know, let alone I, I understand your
thoughts, but I really think that it's because I I have
similar approaches sometimes in my thinking.
But still I think because of what we already did, because of
our attitude and how we target the things that we want.
It's not that easy for other people to push us away.
Not not to talking in in too much of of of praising myself
too much. But like you're you're not a
newcomer, you have you have already achieved quite a few
things and you know so many people.
So something that I wanted, I forgot to to mention before at
Fundatsya Ilma you still offer life webinars and webinars on
demand with so many great, great guests.
I used to be there as well. Of course.
And you're. I think you still are.
Actually, I am. I okay.
It was one of the first webinars in English I remember.
But so people know you and I think you must do some really
big mistakes to be left out. But also I also we we had the
same thing. So we started to not only travel
ourselves to the people that we want to train with and neither
we did just invite him to make an event, but we just invited
them to stay with us in a in a small circle, which which was
really fun the few times. Still, actually I prefer
traveling because when we invite the people, we are still in the
same environment, yes, and not having different places, so.
Yes. And you are still, you know,
occupied with doing the organization stuff.
So you you have, yeah, in a way, in a way, but in a small circle.
It's not that much of organizations, rather like When?
When shall we order some food? No, I mean, you know it's it's
some I I don't want to like speak.
That everything is so bad and negative because no, I think
that in the end it is still everything is worthwhile because
as you said, you are everything you do.
You you put it, you know, on your history list.
So of course there will come times that you know you will
feel like not treated fair and you will feel like you know
someone. Did you know someone did you
wrong? But I think that in the end.
The traveling and the networking and yeah, trying to invite back.
So getting people here is very, very important to just, you
know, to make people aware of you.
So people life is not fair just in general, so it will not
always be so nice, yeah. But I think, I think this is the
right way to do that. I think that's traveling first
of all and taking part in different events and meeting
people and just being around it's crucial.
So I think that the attitude that we have, that we share that
he said that we. When we want something, we push
it and we go. We don't really care if we, if
it like requires 28 hours of driving or you know, I went to
Bush now in in August and it required me two days of driving
on my own five countries with two dogs in 40 degrees Celsius
temperature. I was like, you know, at one
point I was thinking, are my tires on the car gonna make it?
Because it's yeah, sure. How do they melt away?
Exactly. But I wanted to be there.
So I despite all, and I think this is, I think that this is
the right way to do that, to experience things, to learn.
You will not get all that knowledge, all that experience,
just by sitting at your safety spot waiting someone else to do.
Yeah. And that's also something that I
I don't preach, but I I want to tell as often as I can to to
attend this from our courses or to to younger colleagues and
also to all the colleagues that don't sit around and wait.
Something good is coming towards you.
If you want something then just go for it.
There is no, there is no sense in in in in waiting when when
people are hesitant to register for a course.
Of course it costs money, of course you have to schedule it,
of course you have a maybe a normal nine to five job or or
something else or a family etc. But if you want to do it, there
will be compromises everywhere in life and and we can never
tell if it was worth it if we haven't done it so.
Exactly if you if you want something, you you know.
If you want something, you will always find an opportunity.
If you don't want something, you will always, always find an
excuse of what? Yeah, and finding excuses is so
easy. Exactly.
You know, it took me I think two years in general or even more to
make it to go for this month stay at the NPA that was at.
And I was pushing that for years just to make it happen to, you
know, so that they let me in. And in the end it was worth it.
It took a lot of time. But you know it.
Nothing will fall from the sky for you.
You have to, you have to just, you know, dig your own way and
and push it. And then in the end, it will
finally come, I believe, if you try enough, yeah, NPA is the
Norwegian people say it for. Norwegian peoples ate, yes.
Yeah. So you trained there to train
landmine detection dogs, right? Well, I went there as a
volunteer, so I spent once there just a volunteer helping out
with the dogs and helping out with the training and learning
of course. So since I was there for the
whole days. I could watch, I could observe
the trainers, amazing trainers that they have there.
It's also, you know, it's it's very interesting that you know
there are so many people out there doing such an amazing job,
training in amazing way and there are like you will never
ever hear about them because they're, you know, not just
doing their own things, they're working there, but but they're
so good. And it was such a pleasure to
learn from them and it was also a very an honor to be able to
work with their dogs because they let me handle some dogs.
So it was a very nice experience and the reason why I went there
was that, well obviously the landmine detection, it's a, it's
a I think that it's being more and more how to say that?
Now I'm talking about the Ukraine situation and Crane is
right now the the most landmine country in the world and it will
only it will only get worse of course.
So the demand for this kind of dogs is rising and it will be
rising. So I thought that maybe it would
be clever and smart to go and learn something about that.
I'm not saying that I will go and train landmine detection
dogs now. Because that would be
impossible, but it would be nice to learn more about that to see
how because of the training. So I thought that the best way
to do that is to just go there and spend time there.
And I think that the NPA GTC Global Training Center was the
best place. You can't find a better place to
learn. So that was the reason why I
wanted to get there. And yeah, I managed and it was
really, it was an amazing time. So actually I learned I didn't
know that before that. You know that MPA GTC is the
place where the conk method was, yeah?
Yeah, dude, it was them who came up with that.
And it was funny because, you know, at one day I was sitting
with them at the table. I was like.
Hey, Hakun, is it true that you are the one who came up with the
Kong method that, you know, the whole world is doing?
Like, yeah, yeah, it was us. And he told me and he was so
humble about that. He like, you know, they they
don't do a big thing out of that.
Yeah. You know, one day we were
sitting there and thinking like, you know, maybe we could cut
this Kong into smaller pieces. So I thought it was the the
Israelis. But maybe maybe they did after
the example of the GTC. Yeah.
So as far as I'm concerned, it was them because you know, there
are the, they are finding the targets buried in the ground.
So at one point they just saw that maybe it would be, you
know, smart to cut the Cronk into smaller pieces and start
burying it into the ground. And yeah, this is how they
changed that. That is really cool.
Training for the whole world. It's really cool.
So are you starting your own training program now?
Will you prepare some docs for the Ukraine?
Right now we are doing this project, the supporting project
with Paul Bunker and Katyanchur, but I think that the November
trip will be the last trip at least in this like at this how
to say that? As a like free supporting trip,
it's just due to finances. It costs a lot.
It's not so easy to raise money for that.
So I think this will be at this like at this shape the last
trip. Also, I think that you know if
you if you want to make a change, if you want to make an
impact in the training. You know that you know three
days in a row will not do anything.
It will not, you know, help anyone and it will not change
the way they train the dogs. So if you want to help them, it
should be on a regular basis and it should be like a long time,
because going there for three days, twice a year, it doesn't
really make sense, does it? So unless it would be a project,
that would be a long time project.
And it would be regular meeting project then.
I don't really think it's there's any point in going
there. I know that, you know a lot of
dogs are being trained and being sold to Ukraine as a support dog
like explosive detection dogs, also landmine dogs as far as I
know. I don't have any projects like
that going on right now, but well.
We'll see what the future brings.
If there's a requirement for going there and helping them
out, then of course we are willing to.
So that's really, really good. And for sure there will be some
major problems as soon as the war has ended.
I mean the MPA is already there helping but.
You know, it's hard to clean the the country from the mines if
you're still in the war under attack.
Sure. Attack.
So. And it's a huge country.
And it's as well it's it's a really, really big country.
Also dangerous because when I was in Boston, actually there
was a drone attack very close to the place where there are
situated the MPA guys. So it's also you know dangerous
when you are going there doing the humanitarian because the the
landmine detection is also divided into the humanitarian
detection. So it means that after the war
we are cleaning everything. So we in in like order to give
the land back to the people so they can do rebuilt.
Build, build houses and so on. But you also have this.
I lost the word, I mean the the the mind detection which is used
in the frontline. So in order to clean the the
road in front of you, the path out of you, so the you know the
army can and go, you are just cleaning the path in front of
you, just leave alone everything that's on the side.
But it doesn't interest you. You just do the do the road.
But as far as I discussed it, it's also the use of dogs.
It's not really very good. It's because the dogs are slow
and they are slowing down the whole frontline, which makes
them an easy target for the enemy.
And it's also the dog is an easy target because it's quite easy
for the enemy, you know, to put a sniper out there and just pick
it up. So the dogs are not.
At the best way to use them in the frontline.
So there are better for the humanitarian, Yes.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, huh.
Wow. But, but go on.
But you know where is when there is a wait?
Let me check the word. Sure, Google translated.
Yes, what I want to say. Yes, where there is a demand,
there is supply. So already like there there is a
lot of, there's a big maybe I put it in other words, even
though what I said despite the the like disadvantages of the
use of the dogs in the frontline and the like in the war.
There is a demand, so there is a supply.
So if you want you will find people who will train you, a
dog, not necessarily the biggest, the highest quality,
but that will supply you with the mind detection dog there in
the, in the, in the frontline for example.
Even if the dog gets killed, I mean, you know, well, you know
what I'm talking about, that you want to get such a dog.
You will get such a dog because there are so many people.
Already seeking money in this demand of the mind detection
dogs, that there are people who are already training these
things and they're already selling them and sending them to
Ukraine. Is it good?
Is it not good? I mean, I don't know.
I don't want to judge. But that's the reality, sure.
And it's the. Yeah, there is a, there is a big
business growing for. It's a huge business and.
But the the stay in Bush. Now help me understand that you
know the. I think that the mind detection
is the one of the most of course dangerous but most difficult
like specialties within the sun detection, because first of all
you are risking your life just in the beginning.
Yes, get out with your dog. You're already at risk.
But also at the. The mines that are being used
now in Ukraine, they differ so much from what was used in
Bushneck, for example. Yes, because you know, the
explosives, the devices, the mines that are still there, out
there are from 30 years ago and the devices.
Now, in Ukraine, this is a totally different story.
Yeah, there's new level. Yeah.
There's so many kind of devices that are even too dangerous to
be used for the dogs to be used because they can explode just,
you know, without even you stepping on them.
So it's not so easy and I think it's quite again, let me Google.
Sure. Irresponsible just to, you know,
to just to train the dog like that and send it without having
the full knowledge of what it's actually.
What it's actually facing, yeah. But I think it's like, I mean
you will find such cases everywhere and every industry
like you have people who are putting impact and putting like
caring a lot about the quality, about the safety, about
everything. But there are also there's this
side that is caring only about the money.
So this is life, I guess. Yes, yes, that's life.
And I think sometimes we should try to think more economically
but still not forget the topic because.
If you were smart in marketing and economics, you can make it
so far without even selling a good product.
And we see it every day on social media.
Yes, actually if you are good in marketing, that might be enough
in some cases unfortunately. Yeah, it's crazy.
So maybe I should have started marketing instead.
Maybe that would have helped me. Yeah, who knows?
We can. We can still study it.
No, I'm done with universities. I'm done.
But yeah, I think this is also the the thing with if you want
to have high quality, you might disagree with me.
But you know the more narrow specialty you have and the
higher quality you will have you want to have.
I think that your target also gets narrow and narrow, more
narrow and the yeah of course the better marketing you have
and the wider like you know area you are doing, of course the the
wider audience you get if if that's what I'm saying, yeah.
Yeah. So what I'm trying to say is
that if you are specialized in a very, let's let's take, I don't
know radio camera directional, you are a specialist at that and
you are doing that. OK, now you know, give me a
market for that. Yeah, right.
The best. You know the best special.
World. Yeah, yeah.
But give me a market. Yeah, your target group is like
100 people in the world. Exactly.
Yeah, but then seeing nose work, then you are like, oh, OK, you
know. That's something else which and
I this is the thing that I've been struggling a little bit
recently that since this specialty specialization I have
this feeling that my target is like it's getting so small at
least here in the on the Polish market that I I'm really you
know trying to figure out what I should do next because I think
that there's no, you know no demand for this kind of dogs
like radio camera directional. I mean, it requires so much work
and so much everything but then. Some say, some say it's the
future, but do you have similar experience with that as well?
Well, in Australia there is no dog deployed with bubble or
video directional still we train it.
Because first of all, it's it's cool.
I know. First no, first of all it's
frosting and I want to to to manage manage these issues and
and and problems in training and on the other hand I really
believe that there is a future market in in those things more
and more to send in dog supported with or 4 drones.
To yeah, to work some things out and having sensors attached to
its vest and figuring out the temperatures, outgassing, I
don't know nuclear activities and so and so on.
So and still there. The dog is moving faster than
than all the robots and and can just go in.
Objects where you have challenges to to navigate a
drone to a robot. I think I agree.
And I also think that this is fascinating.
And and and also the our, our, the, the technical part of it
getting better connections, getting better wireless
connections, having less disruptions or time differences
between. The the sender and the receiver
and all those things, they they will just develop in in the next
few maybe weeks, months, because how fast did all the drone
technology evolve? So I really don't see a big
about the control again. Come again?
I need to talk to you about the camera again, but we will take
that later. Yes, the the bloody camera.
Few days ago I've been waiting for it since May I got it and
now I'm frustrated because there's this little slot that
says that you should enter the TF card not SD anymore.
TF microcard like memory card and I bought one and I put it in
and it does not read it. So problems just from the
beginning. Now we we are still still on it.
Our engineer is still building it.
But I have to admit it, it sounds for for someone who is
just training dogs as I am, it sounds easier than it than it
is. There's so many things that they
have to think about. How?
Because we want the the the maximum outcome on the smallest
possible place with the smallest possible weight.
And yeah, I'm still I think we're gonna on a good path.
So we'll see. I hope you will come out with
something that will be small, that will be, you know, we'll
have perfect connection and perfect quality of the image and
then you will sell one to me. I hope so, yeah.
Jens is waiting as well. Put me up.
Wait, please. Definitely, definitely.
As soon as we have something out you will you will see it
definitely. Yeah and apart from that it's a
cool topic but still no one. No one in Austria is deploying
dogs like this but I see I see many fields that where it would
make sense. So from from search and rescue
to to any kind of. Explosive detection work, Yeah,
I think it's very. And it's like it's also, it can
work like a body Cam for normal patrol dogs, because if you have
a real bite or a live bite and because for example in Austria
dogs can't just be sent to bite in in in regular police, they
have to bark, so they have to alert.
Before they would bite. So if you would would hear the
dog barking and suddenly the dog is silent and you you start to
hear someone screaming, there might be a reason for it and
then you would have all proven on on the camera you know.
So there there would be many benefits also also in front of
the judge to just have somebody cams on the dogs that yeah, but
I think you know the dogs with the cameras are already already
being deployed with like you know, like normal cameras.
I'm not saying yes. Normal cameras, not just just
having the cameras, but in general I think that it's also,
you know, since not a lot of people do that, it's very
interesting and it's very challenging to to do that and to
to train it. So I I take it personally as a
challenge. Yes.
She doesn't make it work. Although it's frustrating.
I agree. I totally agree.
Definitely, yeah. And I really have to pull myself
together and spend more time training again, because recently
we spent a lot of time in planning and organizing things
and the dogs did have a little bit too less training.
Because I'm having two puppies right now.
And ignets and cool. And yeah, So what are you
training the puppies for? What's their future?
The black one will become, I guess, Austria's first single
purpose firearm detection dog, cool, and the yellow one will
probably become. If he makes the the health
examination or the medical examination and he will become
an explosive detection dog. OK, so I'm having the puppy.
I was sleeping sick, well behaved.
Yes, yes, I have. The black one here is sleeping
as well. So if everything goes well, I
mean, you know the hips and joints and xrays and everything,
he should become a family protection dog.
So hopefully to be sold further. So this is another direction I'm
taking right now actually, to yeah, to race and train and sell
dogs. So.
And that's really cool because I think they're Poland is, I
wouldn't say some something like the Wild West, but you still
can, you have a lot of more, lot more freedom.
In in training and in in using dogs.
And this has, I think, some benefits.
And some disadvantages. Well, for example, I wouldn't be
allowed in Austria to train a personal protection dog.
I wouldn't be allowed to. There is some kind of a Gray
space in law. But I wouldn't actually be
allowed to train a dog to do muscle attacks.
I wouldn't be allowed to do civil biting.
So PS:. A is forbidden.
In Austria we have monitoring. Are you still allowed to use
prong colors? And no, not for for for almost a
decade. Oh really?
No prong colors, no E colors, nothing.
Nothing like that, but I think, you know, it's coming to Poland
as well slowly. But yeah, I mean I think sooner
or later the regulations will come here as well.
But so far, yes, we we. Basically and and and yeah for
for me The thing is so so my focus in training is apart from
educating handlers and instructors, is training
detection dogs, number one, search and rescue dogs still a
little bit. And in these subjects I I
wouldn't need any of the things that are that we are having
restrictions on and. But of course when, when
training, bite work, etc. There, there, there you would be
restricted with with a few things and you can't do certain
it's it's risky to do it illegally since you you know you
run the company and you can't. Exactly so.
So you you can't do anything that's illegal.
So you said about training, is it like limited only to the?
Authorities, organizations like, yes, normally.
OK. Yeah.
So police and military in the end, but you know, with the
family, I mean with the protection dogs here, it's you
always have to remember that when you have such a dog, you
are like going with an unsecured gun.
But if anything happens, if this dog bites, it's really very hard
to prove that in court that it wasn't your fault.
So even you know if if a burglar gets into your house and the
dogs attacks, it would be still your fault in court.
So you really you really have to think like twice if you want to
have such a dog. But unfortunately I meet a lot
of people who are not aware of the regulations and are like not
aware about the risks that having such a dog it's carrying.
And they still want to have such a dog just because it sounds
cool to have a professional dog, but they don't really think
about the consequences that might get with that.
So when I started my adventure and I had my Rd. filer as a
first dog, I also wanted him to be my protection dog.
I wanted to do protection sports, I wanted to do civilian
protection, but I had like no idea about dogs at all like
that. And now if you ask me like what
kind of dog I would like to have, I would tell you that I
want to have the most, most social dog ever in the world
that just, you know, doesn't react to people, is just social
and normal and has no aggression at all.
Just because of it gives me so much more comfort and just
peace. When I go out to the streets and
I go out to the, I don't know, restaurant, whatever.
And I have a dog, and I have this like Peace of Mind that
this this dog will not do anything if someone you know
right reacts in a strange way, let's say other than having a
dog. Yeah, it makes life so much
easier. I had this discussion few weeks
ago with someone who so they were coming from a security
company. And we are trying to work
together with them to, yeah, to to build an explosive detection
dog program for private events, concerts, festivals, etc.
And so I told them, maybe they want to send us some of of their
securities or guards, and if they have a dog, we could.
Assess the dog and see if if maybe this dog would fit in,
what the what the detection dog needs And some of them
approached and said, well yeah, I have this and that dog not too
old so the age would have been good, the breed would have been
good. But they also want to train the
dog for protection, because of course, they come from a section
where protection is is their their job, it's part of their
lives. I said, well, it's just
nonsense. In Austria it's, it really makes
no sense at all, because in in no circumstances you would have
a benefit from a biting dog. Because it's like like like
using a gun if you're not allowed to own a gun, you know,
And that's a big problem afterwards.
And in the end, the only dog is the.
Is part is that part of the game that will carry the the
consequences of being euthanized or taken away or something like
that. So and then many people really
don't get it that in Austria it makes no sense to train a
protection dog. And yeah, I mean I'm not small
to to do. Sports, but yes, yes, but that's
that's that's in in the sports that are allowed.
In Austria you have the obvious target.
So we're not allowed to train civil biting.
Or muscle attacks and as a civil person, but I think.
And and if you want to have a if you want to have the detection
dog as well you you don't want the dog that reacts on on some
fast movements or or people who are like a dog is coming.
You want this, have to think about that.
You know, a dog is a dog, and it can be wrong and it can make a
mistake and it might just react in the wrong way.
And then you need to answer a question for yourself.
Do you want and Are you ready to deal with the consequences?
Probably not. Yes.
Yeah. You know, even I talked to a
friend of mine from the United States some time ago and even
there the police officers are more and more scared of using
not only the guns but also the dogs.
Just, you know, for the biting because of the consequences, so.
Except from Florida, no. I don't know.
Maybe. But sure, we hear this this
topic everywhere and of course it's it's worth to to think
about those things. But.
I would be very careful to not like I said it in the last
podcast and I said it many times before, we are in a very lucky
situation and we are very wealthy people in the western
part of of the world and and Europe especially and and and
life is very good to us so we have enough time to think about
stupid stuff and to over dramatize certain topics but the
bad guys. Who have a bad life and and bad
feelings about the world et cetera Who wants to find a
better situation for themselves and are who are not afraid of
taking other lives or putting damage to other communities and
they just will not care about animal welfare or pollution so
so if we if we get too soft and and and glue our hands on the
ground and. Try to work our dogs with the
love only. Well, we will not make it too
far in the future. I guess so and that's that's
what the end said about Austria. He said well Austria similar to
other countries maybe like Switzerland or Sweden itself is
peace damaged. Yeah so.
So the the authorities in the authorities don't really know
what's necessary to to use their.
Yeah, they're units for because. They can't protect anymore.
You know, I've listened to, I've listened to a podcast with ex
Navy Seals guy, Polish guy. Actually I think the first, I
don't know if the only Polish guy in Navy, so, but that
doesn't matter. And he said that you know, if
you if you want to feel safe, you need to be a bigger
motherfucker than these motherfuckers that want to
attack you. In order to be a bigger
motherfucker than these ones, you have to be stronger.
You have to be worse in a way that you have to be more brutal
and more dangerous. You have to get up earlier, as
Choco would say and. I think it's yeah.
Why? That you know you have to be
prepared and you have to show your that you are bigger, you
are stronger and you are more dangerous than them.
But in order to be able to do that you have to be like that
and you have to train like that so that they are just scared to
to to harm you. And we are in a situation that
we are just showing ourselves as a you know, we we are not
bringing any. Danger because we are so soft to
dogs, as you said, you know, putting our regulations down and
we are just like getting all the tools away from us in order to
protect ourselves. Sure, Yeah, I think.
It's going to be here in Poland in the nearest time because of
our situation right now. It might change a little bit
since we are, you know, bordered to Ukraine and we are all these.
Things happening. Are you also bored to bellows?
Yes, yeah I'm I'm really interested on on how the the the
younger generations now are growing up.
No no in Austria or generally also in maybe in central Europe
and and and how the the current situation is is affecting all of
us because right now I I I really you know I I was I'm very
privileged I I didn't have to do hard work at home you know but I
was still a child that could play in dirt and mud and who
didn't have to have parents watching us all the time and and
the kids now are having this umbrella moms and dads and and
and can't get dirty etc or or just checking out what's what's
what's latest on TikTok and I have the feeling that that dogs
are treated the same way. Yep.
And the dangerous thing is not that.
Also working dogs should be treated that way.
Like like like retarded. Yep, subjects.
You know, just imagine that if we talk about children, but you
know, even about ourselves, just imagine that the electricity
goes off. For like 1-2, three days for a
week, yeah. But if that happens, everyone is
dead here. Yeah, because.
Because. Children, because maybe some of
us will like, you know, we have some survival skills.
Maybe, maybe not. But if we talk about, that's a
big problem. That is raised, you know, with
their glued to their mobiles and.
Just imagine the electricity goes off for a week and we have
no telephone. You have no, you have nothing.
No, really. I think the scenario is if that
would happen for a week. We have the the apocalypse.
Yeah, yeah. So that would be really, really
bad. Exactly even it would be
Zombieland. Even think about the water,
because if you don't have electricity, you basically you
don't have water anymore. If you don't have nothing and
you know you start drinking poison water, maybe at one
moment get sick and you die, it's and actually you know.
Not very many people are thinking about that scenario,
such a scenario. We are like living in a bubble,
thinking that, oh, we are so great because we, you know,
during our life, I think both yours and mine, we've been
living the very privileged life. So we experienced no course.
We experienced no like we lived in, I think the best times we
could basically imagine the technology developed and
everything and we basically take that for granted.
So far, yes. And we think that, you know,
it's always been like that. We've always had electricity
exactly and and that makes. Imagine that something like that
can happen and that creates those weak decisions and the
soft attitude you. Know what they say?
That the the good times create weak man.
But I said that in the last podcast.
So I don't want to, you know, worry, but it means that we
might be the weak man. Yeah.
Hopefully not, hopefully not.
Yes, I'm just checking besides to to buy some some how do you
call it do? You mind now?
Now. Toilet quickly?
Sure, sure, go ahead. I I also have to turn off the
the washing machine. OK,
yeah. I also let the dogs into the
garden now. At least three of them.
So wow time time is running young and and and I really
enjoyed I haven't yet gone through any of my 3030 questions
and and I think we will leave that but now it's it's been it's
been great so far yes. So I'm I'm curious how how what
the future brings to us. Because of course not only dog
training is not only affected by the latest ideas of dog trainers
and and and the latest subjects in in dog training and what's
hot or not. But of course also of it's
affected by the our community and and laws, how how we can
treat or how we shall treat dogs and how we shouldn't.
And and as we already discussed, I I have a quite a pessimistic
view on that in the future because things are already quite
hard right now and we are always in some kind of a Gray zone
when. But don't you think that you
know the like, the reality creates the demand so that since
we have lived in such peaceful times and.
We could have allowed ourselves and allowed our regulations to
treat the dogs as they were retarded, as you said in the
end. But yeah, that's.
But we are also treating people as if they are retarded or
disabled, not to offense the health status of people or or
animals, but. But I mean like children for
example and but you know nowadays in Poland what what is
happening is that since we have this like you know breath of war
on our lives, we started thinking about that that maybe,
you know, we should start educating the children on some
you know, like basic, I don't know, for example shooting.
Abilities and like starting preparing them for the times
that might affect us. Because Ukraine is just around
the border, yes, yes. No one knows how, as you said,
no one knows what the future brings and no one knows it will
know if it doesn't spread around the Europe.
And maybe we should start preparing ourselves for that and
the children for that. Because, you know, our parents
remember the times, our grandparents remember these
times. But the children, they they they
have like no idea of what the war is about.
And what I'm trying to say is that when you feel this breath
of of the war and the the hard times coming, you start thinking
about that. And maybe if you see that the
demand for the dogs that should be actually able to be used in
in in real protection demands and real protection purposes.
And maybe these regulations that don't allow you to use them this
way will change if it makes sense what I'm trying to say.
You know, because if you don't have a need then you can allow
yourself, Okay, this is bad. You can't train protection
because whatever. But then if you see that you
know the enemy is coming slowly, then you start to think other
way that you should change something.
Yeah, and probably preparing is smarter than post processing.
The question is, you know, we in Poland, we, we are very much
like involved in this situation because it's close to us.
But I don't know how is it in Austria.
Do you even think about that? No, No.
I think people in charge think that we are on the on the
different planet or it's safe. You know, we're Austria.
We are neutral, Yeah. Yeah, we are no aggressors.
Ukraine, yeah. Now, well, because the, the, the
Ukrainian border is where I used to live before it was just four
hours, right? Not even.
So it's quite close, was quite close of course the the western
Ukrainian border but yeah you know it's it's also of course
since you're directly boarded to to the Ukraine.
I guess your news is having a different priority on on on
bringing the news to you. And I I don't know what it what
it's like in Poland but right now we don't hear too many
things. On the other hand, I'm not a
very active news reader or or news, yeah.
You know, with the news you also have to be quite careful because
there's so much propaganda going on from different side.
And the truth is that, you know, you come to a point that you are
not listening to that because you don't know what to believe
anyway. Is it true?
Yeah, it's just, you know, brainwashing because you know, I
don't know, the Russians want you to believe that or the
Ukrainians want you to believe their point of view.
So it's really hard to. Actually know the truth and know
what what's the reality and not just the, you know politic.
You that want you to believe that Yeah.
And that's that's also I think that is I I don't want to try to
get too much into into the politics but in the end I think
there we should we should think each and everyone should think
about themselves and somehow get any kind of preparement for
themselves or in their little communities because yeah we will
just know whatever the the higher parts want us to know and
exactly and we will not affect it So we will we will always
have to deal with the consequences that's.
You are always left on your own in the end.
Yes. And you, you know, you have to
deal on your own. But also you know, that was
interesting. I I heard the conversation of
another ex special operations soldier who is a big prepper.
So you know, he's all about survival and he's already
everything, right? He can he can survive on
apocalypse. But he said, like, you know, I
am all prepared and I I have all supplies you could see, you
know? Think about them.
You can you could even ever ever imagine.
But I have all of that at my place at my home.
But what if, you know a disaster happens when I'm like, you know,
1000 kilometers away from that because it myself just anytime.
But I'm like, OK, all my preparations are just for
nothing. For nothing.
Yeah. And that's also this.
You. You.
If that's the case, you you, you can't live that that fear
guided, yes. Exactly.
So I think it's smart to think about those things, to talk
about them and and not just to joke around, because a few years
ago I would have lost that you if you if you wanted to tell me
anything about prepping. But I think it's smart to have
some water cleaning hills and something to to to make fire
with and. Yes, yes, and stuff.
I see. I think we should just, you
know, follow our things, do our stuff.
And, you know, you never know what the life brings to you.
It's yes, it's so have you. Would you ever imagine the COVID
situation, all of that? It was like, you know, living in
fantasy world, right? Yeah, it's it's totally, it's so
crazy. And I remember I tried sometimes
to remember how it was during COVID and meanwhile I have moved
two times already again. And it's so surreal.
It's like like a story someone used to tell me I I can't even
remember being in there, always wearing a mask, going to the
supermarket, not allowing, meeting other people.
You know, not not allowed to leave the house unless you're
walking the dogs, etc, Yeah. And you are like living like
Jesus, I'm, you know, I'm afraid to open the door because this
monster will help, will kill you.
And I remember being really scared at the time.
So we are laughing about that, but you know, like going back.
I remember being really like, my God, we are going, yeah, yeah.
I wasn't thinking that I was going to die because of COVID,
but I thought this this ruins my, this ruins my job.
Yes, etc. Going to be like our like what
happens next? And it was like, still, at a
certain point in the first lockdown, when when everything
was canceled and everyone knew that it hits the whole planet,
there was a certain point for me that was totally relaxing
because then I knew, OK, everyone now has to deal with
the same situation. We can't do anything about it.
So I walked the dogs in the morning.
It was 9:00, and there was nothing else on the schedule.
So things were done. It was crazy.
It was really crazy. So something that came up to my
mind now for for the real canine preppers.
In the end, it's always to have a a bitch and a male in stock to
to do some breeding for the next generations.
Yeah, I. Thought you'll say to have
something to eat? No, we have to to to provide our
ourselves for the next years with dogs, so.
Probably. Actually.
I'm actually planning on the breeding next year.
I2 dogs. We'll see how it goes.
So with the the female of Eric and this male.
Female of Eric and with Toy, Yes, Yeah.
We also have some breeding programs with Cool and and with
Pook, and we wanted to have it already happen this autumn.
But since Chris and me are always abroad okay with our
mobile survival kits, we said now it's smarter to postpone it
to next year or something. But actually this would be a
very promising. Well, I'm also having big hopes
with that breathing. We'll see.
But I'm, I'm actually waiting for Araya to get in hit because
she's she's not in a hurry and he never, so she's like every
nine months or so. Yeah.
So we just our, our Labrador is having the same, that's good.
Nine or ten months. Yeah.
It's not very stressful. It's quite natural.
Yeah. What was the name of the young
Labrador Breedus that we met in Poland?
Or what's their what was their kennel name?
Asha, I can Google that for you very quickly because they're
they are doing a really nice program of puppy racing.
I'm still interested in getting a dog dog from them.
Asha, pull it. You are not pull it.
And there, it's the whisper of
fire. Exactly.
The whisper of fire. Yeah, that's what I can work
with. And the whisper of fire.
And they have a very, very good puppy program.
They're very cool people. I mean, I will, yeah.
They're really nice. And they shared some videos with
their first letter, I think last year.
Yeah, some of the pups are in the search and rescue right now.
Nice already grown up dogs and we're doing really good.
So that's cool, I. Think that's a good direction to
go. That's really cool.
So yeah, let's wrap this up. I really enjoyed it.
I hope we do the Part 2 of this, it would be would be really
nice. I hope you know that maybe
someone will listen to that for sure for sure.
So still we didn't go through our basic questions, but maybe I
will. Session just went somewhere.
Yeah, it was great. Maybe I will keep that for our
next. Next interview next talk.
But still I want to post a question to you that was asked
by my previous guest. And my previous guest was Stefan
Koutier who he's a he was a police K9 handler and for many
years now he has his own security company which is called
XXL Sisha Height and it's a big company he's having.
Hundreds of coworkers or not. He has more than 100 employees
and and several 100 self-employed coworkers so to
say so. And he's doing a lot of
explosive detection work for bigger events.
And his question wasn't easy to translate because.
He started to say something and then he added something.
And then he said, well, I would ask it like this.
And then, so I tried to translate it more or less
directly from from German to English.
So for dog handlers and trainers from agencies or authorities,
how much pressure and harshness can be used in training without
violating the Animal Welfare Act?
How do you deal with the balancing act of needing dogs
for service that have to be exposed to the corresponding
pressure or hardness and also have to experience this in
training? So the meaning is that we have
to build dogs for deployments where they will encounter
certain kinds of pressure, pain and very stressful situations if
they weren't trained for it and. So the question is how?
How, what? How do you see what's it like in
Poland in in your case and what are your comments about it?
Good question, very good question.
And I think it's a very important question that everyone
should should ask you know themselves.
What I think about that is that first of all I think it depends
on the dog that you are working with that you can't put, you
know, every dog into the same like scammer because dogs are
different. They have different abilities to
like to cope with with such pressures.
And you know, you might have a dog that is really, really
strong, mentally strong and that the pressure you put on it will
not like affect him much. But then on the other hand, you
might have a very sensitive dog that might be affected, but a
very little level of pressure. And I think it's really
important to read the dogs and to know the dog that you are
working with and to know the abilities of the each
individual. Which of course leads us to a
different question that you know you might say now that OK, we we
we have different dogs, but these different dogs will face
the same circumstances in in the future.
Do you follow what? I'm saying outsource the weak
dogs. No, I think that's thank you in
a nice way. But let's just let me finish.
I think that I do use pressure in my training, but I try to
balance that pressure not to over try not to overuse it.
I'm also not the kind of a trainer that it's positive only
how you how you say that that you know that like so it gets
rid of all the. So you trigger me right there,
OK? In a good way, because I think
we have a connection that we can talk about things, but may I
just. Please go on.
Yes, yes, yes, sure. I think.
Me personally, I do use pressure if needed.
I use tools if needed, like from colors and choke, but only if
needed really. So this is just one of the tools
that I have in my toolbox and if needed I will get some use of
that And so I'm not like you know, getting away from that
just just to be 100% positive what to So what to say.
But on the other hand, I'm also not a fan of putting the dogs
into the like schema of putting the ecolar just from the
beginning and you know, training that way.
I'm I'm attacking here the Nepopo systems for example,
because I don't think. I don't want to say any names,
but you can avoid that. We are getting lippery, no?
This might be my first and last podcast.
No, we'll see. No, but I'm very open about it
and I'm saying that. Yeah.
And that that that's good. That's good.
And you know I have that. OK, I will do some attacking
here. Unfortunately, I don't want to
attack anyone but. But but what worries me is that
the, you know, we talked about the marketing before that
because of marketing being done so well, a lot of people are
buying certain ways of training and I'm getting into them.
Electric collars training right now and the dogs that are not
suitable for that and that are not like even you don't need to
use this kind of training for certain dogs are still being put
there and are being trained from the very beginning with the use
of the tools, with the pressure, with the use of the pressure
that it's not needed. Which leads to, I have seen
personally a lot of dogs that have been ruined by that, just
by by, you know, the unnecessarily unnecessary,
unnecessary, a way that was unnecessary, you know what I
mean with these certain dogs. So in the end, what I'm want to
say is that I'm not saying that the tools are bad and that you
shouldn't be using them because this is the same.
You could say that you know you can kill yourself with a knife,
but you are still using that knife if needed, right?
Right. So the tool that is a problem,
it's the ability of knowing when and where and why and with what
doc to use it and how to use it. So, but getting back to the
question, I totally think that the dogs that are going to be
faced with certain pressures in the real life, in the real
deployments should be faced to these also in the training.
And even more, I think that the training should be done even
more in a hard way, maybe more difficult way then the dogs will
rather than the dogs will face in the reality.
And I think this is normal what I'm saying that always you know,
the training should be harder, harsher.
Sure, but there is a big difference in where the pressure
is coming from. So of course I can put pressure
into the training as the handler because I use different
methodologies, yes. Or I.
Use environment as pressure so and then that's a that's a big
difference because and I always quote this bet that said to the
police forces or can enforce unit of the police and they said
you would you wouldn't work according the animal welfare law
if you did not train your dogs in. 40 degrees Celsius.
So if you don't go for a run with your dogs in the middle of
the summer in the highest heat possible, how would you dare to
deploy the dog at the demonstration, at the football
match or whatever in 40 degrees? So if the dogs are not prepared
for this in training, then you would break the animal world
fact. And that makes so much sense.
But that also means that we have to get in in in difficult
environments, noises, spokes, smells, things are thrown at the
dog. So it's it's like, you know, so
becoming a police officer or or or a firefighter or soldier or a
nurse or whatever will mean that you will find yourself in very
difficult situations. And if the situations that will
harm your own life and that would will put yourself into
danger and that will meet you as a specialist in the certain
subject to be able to take the right decisions when needed.
And first of all I think we we breed the dogs that are capable
of this if they're trained in the right way.
On the other hand, we will have a certain percentage of of
outwash because there are still some individuals that will just
not make it. And as we as we both know, but
also we outwash the humans, so why shouldn't we outwash the
dogs? Yeah, but you know, what about
the law? What is the law saying?
Yes, but and that's, and that's the next thing.
So when people are deciding, well, I want to become a
firefighter, they take the decision at their own when it's
about animals and horses. Dogs.
Dolphins. I don't know and.
No one, no one, no one really asked them if they want to join
the program. Still throughout training the
dogs with all the quadrants that we know with classical
conditioning and just the law of effect is.
That obviously they show more and more of the behavior that we
want them to. So if they didn't want to do so,
they wouldn't accomplish the tasks that we are wanting them
to do. So they I'd like to have
fundamental questions should even be allowed to use the dogs
in general? Exactly, exactly.
So I think if we see that the dog is willing to do what we
have set up. Then why should why should it be
an ethical problem? I think it would be an ethical
problem if I if I really force them to do it.
And of course the working dog has to do it.
Or we always say the working dog has to want to do it and that
will always be. I think we are also talking
about the risk that the dog is taking in the end like you know,
because the risk comes everywhere.
I mean the police, the military work of course, but even in the
search and rescue the dog might not make it.
The dog might you know into an accident.
And you know even as I told you about my friend from Sweden, we
were in the search and rescue exercises and the dog fell out
of the bridge and and broke its leg and OK, if it didn't the
search and rescue it wouldn't have happened.
But also in Poland a few months ago there was a case that guy
was coming back from some championships, I think obedience
championship, something like that.
And the dog died on the flight. So we we might also ask
ourselves, OK, but if this guy didn't do the sports with the
dog and didn't make the dog go to the plane, it wouldn't have
died. So because ask the dog if if it
wants to get on the plane, right.
So I think this is a very like, this is a discussion and this is
a question that doesn't really get us to a proper answer
because we have like two sides of the maybe in other ways we
need to like balance that because we can't go 100% decide
that OK everything is unethical that we put our dogs into
because you know, they they should decide for themselves
themselves. We are putting them at risk,
they might be in danger, they might suffer and so on.
But on the other hand we produce and we breed the dogs with very,
very hard drives with the wheel willingness and putting them now
just you know at home or in the garden and doing nothing.
This is, I think, even worse. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
And you know, and we want to live in freedom and and suddenly
we start to fight our, our ourselves by making it not
possible to protect ourselves. Yes, by by by bringing up those
ridiculous. Maybe ridiculous is the wrong
word, but. Issues within the animal welfare
and yeah, I think it's we also always have to take compromises
in in those things because if we start to think about is it
ethical to to do dog sports and it's quite easy to find enough
arguments for no it's not not ethical.
And and it wouldn't be ethical to do to work with dogs.
But then we then we shouldn't live in houses.
You know. Then we could go back into the
woods and and try to make the difference of I call to breed
the dogs. Then is it all to, you know, to
get the the puppies into the world?
And I mean, you know what I mean is that this kind of discussion
can go into such an absurd. Yeah, totally.
Because you know, I have read an article recently about the girl
who sued her parents because they gave birth to her and they
didn't ask her that if she wants to to to be born and if she
wants to, you know, deal with the world and and she sued them
for that. So, you know, it's a questions.
First of all, I think we never, we will never get like a good
answer for that. There will will always be this
black and white side. So it's kind of a it really
depends on our own thinking, on our own feelings on them, how we
feel about certain things. But also I think going back to
discussion we had to the discussion we had before is that
we really have a lot of freedom right now and a lot of free time
and no worries and everything that we even discussed these
things because if like you know. I think that's the thing.
We have too much time. So people come up with problems
that actually don't exist exactly, exactly and you are
just creating your own problems about even thinking of but also
not to be understood wrong. I I totally think that we need
to respect that, you know, animal rights, but. 100% you
know. Where to start and and you know
we we can never ask the animal, yes.
That's. But you know also you can, you
can observe the animal and you can, you know, you can totally
fulfill the like the the needs of the animal and you can
examine if the animal is healthy.
If there's if the animal is like well, life, is it happy, is it
well nutrition and so on. So you you can, you know, give
an opinion on that thing as long as you don't do anything that
gives the like brings the dog to to certain harm.
But of course then you might say, but what if an accident
happens? Well then I think this is a
reason that goes with the working life.
But as long as the use of the dogs in the working purposes is
allowed, and I think this is same as with humans, it's just
the risk that you are taking and everything you can do is to make
sure that you are giving the dog a great life.
You are meeting its needs so that you have nothing to regret.
Later on, if anything happens that, you know, this dog was
living a bad life, now something went wrong.
Sure, that's what I think. So this is also what I'm trying
to do. I'm trying to give my dogs, you
know, all the best I can do to to take care of them, to take
care of their health, of their fitness, of their training, to
make sure they're living a great life.
But then in any if anything happens later on, this is the
risk that I'm putting them to. Of course this is also something
that I mentally agree with because you know if you are for
example, you are training a dog, you are selling a dog to an army
or to the police, then actually you are the one responsible who
are putting this dog at a certain risk because you solved
it there. So you you should feel
responsible for its future, for its life.
And if you are selling the dog to to the unit that it's going
to be deployed to the war for example, how do you feel that
the dog, you know, big shoot or killed or whatever?
Yes. And I actually was asked this
question recently that, you know, I said that I'm selling
one of the dogs to to to the army and what if the dog, if I'm
not like worried that the dog will get harmed and will you
know, get killed or whatever. Yes, I do.
But then I'm doing that, like fully aware.
I'm not happy about the risk that it's taking.
But on the other hand, this is the I'm thinking about the good
sides that this dog might protect some lives, might save
some lives even if it paid. It's the price of its own life.
It's hard and it's it's not fun. But this is something that I I
give my like, you know, agreement to it.
But I think that every person might have a different view on
that. So some people I know people
that will never for example, sell the dog because of because
of the risk that it might encounter in the future.
And I I'm okay with that because every I think everyone should
set their own limits and answer their like, ask themselves a
question. What What are you okay with and
what? What are you okay to put your
dog or the dog that you are breeding, raising, training?
To what risk and what consequences?
Because in the end it will be your consciousness and your wait
a second conscience. How to say that wait conscience
that will, you know, eat you? Yes, it's it's a hard question.
And it is. And I think about it.
I think about myself many times because we're also preparing and
selling dogs. And with every dog you have to
think about, think about how you treat yourself.
I just hope that I will never be in a situation that I will face
the consequences, so that I hope I will never never hear and use
that one of my dogs or one of the dogs that came from me got
killed. And I hope I will never, you
know, be be forced to like deal with all the emotions and
thoughts that will come after that, sure.
But I am aware that these news might come one day.
But. You know that's part of the
game, that's part of the game and if you are not OK with that
then just, you know, then put the game and do something else.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, now what is your
question to the next guest? You should have let me know
earlier. I have to think what is my
question and who is going to be the next?
I I don't know. I don't know yet, no.
I give you a second to think about it.
I have to take care of ignets. Give me, give me, give me a
minute. What did you come up with?
I have a question, but I don't know how to put it in a short
sentence, so I will. I will describe it as well, yes.
So I wonder what's the next speaker's opinion and maybe
ideas, and also if the speaker agrees or disagrees.
But what I've seen and what I've experienced like traveling
through different places, smaller and bigger is that you
know the bigger place you have. So the the more dogs are you are
having in training, in deployment at work and so on,
the worse conditions you can give to the duck.
So what I mean is that for example where I was in Bushnell
and they are having like 40 dogs in training, you can imagine
what the conditions of living for these dogs look like.
So kennels and basically you know, it's totally different to
when you have like 2 dogs and they're living with you at home
and so on. And if you breed also if you
have a lot of dogs, a lot of dogs in the use, these
conditions go lower. But on the other hand, you want
to have the high quality at work and I think that the quality,
the welfare of the dogs, the conditions they are living at
really have a huge impact on how they perform at work.
But on the other hand, again, you can't provide great
conditions as if you are owning 2 dogs at your home to 40 dogs,
it's impossible. It's.
Not affordable exactly but yet it impacts the the the work.
So the better the welfare of the dogs of course the better
results at the work and I it's as you said it's not affordable
and it's it's really, I think it's a really hard topic on how
it could be sorted out to on one hand have a lot of dogs that you
work with that you train and that you deploy.
But still, you know, create a good environment for these dogs
and meet their like welfare and needs.
How to do that I wonder maybe the speaker will have some ideas
from that and maybe maybe saw some solutions.
But because you know, even me, I'm wondering about the breeding
that I'm planning for the next year.
And I would like to keep the litter, but I don't want to have
this leader kept in the canal because I know how crucial the
social part is in the development and so on.
But then on the other hand, how do you want to deal with 10
dogs, for example, and five adults of your own?
So how to, you know, is there like a golden middle way to to
meet, like both the welfare needs, but also to to be able to
like have more ducks at once and avoid this kenneling that I
think it's really, really bad for the ducks and really impacts
the work. What do you think?
You will not answer me now, huh? Me.
Yeah. Well, I think then we would
again talk another 45 minutes, so.
So I am. I'm eager to hear the answer.
Do you agree with me that this is this is like a problem?
That unsolvable problem? Actually, I.
Don't know if it's unsolvable until the first one solves it.
You know, it's like, yeah, so maybe the next speaker will.
Will tell us exactly. Maybe they will enlighten us
with the solution and and I have no clue yet who it will be.
OK. I wanted to talk to Jessica,
but. She's busy you if you ask for my
recommendations. Sure, let me know.
Ah yeah, I think you should totally talk to Kat.
She would be an amazing speaker. Or to.
Cats. Who?
Katyanshu. But do you know her?
No. You know her.
Then you should. You should have a closer look at
her. She's an amazing trainer, OK?
So please send me a link to her. Well, I.
Will and then I will think about it for sure.
Come again? She listens to your podcasts.
Nice. Nice for Paul Bunker for
example. Ohh yes he he has some amazing
stories. To tell he's also on my list,
Yeah, yeah, just never got in touch with him before.
So, Yagna. How can people reach out to you?
How? How?
How can they get in touch with you?
Instagram. Facebook.
That's the easiest. How do they find you there?
Well Tor working docs, Thor working docs.
All right. I also put that to the show
notes. Yeah, so we have the you have
the Facebook profile, the Tor working docs and Instagram where
you can follow us like with our daily activities, short videos,
etc. Just you know, basic daily life
and training. So yes, if if anyone wants to
reach out then I will be more than happy to to answer.
Great. Please send me two or three
photos of you and the dogs so that I can promote this episode.
Thank you and to everyone who was listening, I hope you've
enjoyed this. In this case again, one of the
longer episodes, almost two hours and 15 minutes.
I really enjoyed it. So if you did so as well, please
give us rating, leave us a comment, subscribe at the app,
whatever app you're using to listen to us and tell all your
friends about it. So hope to.
Have you as a listener the next time as well and until then stay
safe. Thank you so much.
Also thank you so much everyone for listening.
Thank you Flo for inviting me. It was a pleasure and it was a
very nice experience. This is the first time I have
done something like that and I really nice.
So yes, I hope that the conversation we had, it was very
interesting for me talking about different.
Things yes, definitely for me as well.
I really enjoyed it and I hope we will have a Part 2.
As already mentioned, I'm on it so whatever it okay.
So thank you everyone and I hope you enjoy this.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.