Hello, very one you rebout to listen a great episode the end
of from the story and myself. It's the third one that we have
recorded so far and unfortunately we ran into some
technical issues some how we have realized after the
recording so in discase we are not having the video of the full
length, some have decided just. To keep it the audio also on
youtube, so please forget me for that, I'm still working and
practicing my skills conserning the video podcasting also some
how the upload of the audio data was not a hundred percent, but i
think it's leging a little bit here and there still the the the
majority of the content will befined to listen to so.
Enjoyed is episode and as always subscribe like share and that is
no what do you th all about it so now have fun with yans funk
and me welcome everyone to another
episode i last the overview i think it's number.
Seventy six or something wow incressive it's should have been
more already, but this catal is full of other things, but it's
grate to have a herians and bevor we warm our bears, we will
just open that is it already have word finding problems, but
this bear a should change all. It you's we get spector we're.
So Prost. Gesundheit Score way Beta so as
you can see or the ones of you who seeed by the way you can
watch. All was all of all latest
episodes on youtube and the one for not watching you have
already hurt jens frankes in the building.
Jens Arive Two Days a go and is withers for a small special
workshop and i talk we just used the time is well, not just for
the lectures and some practical training, but also to have
another episode record it of already been with me at a kind
of dog for two times so. Another milestone, the first
guest for three times. Congratulations streng.
Calahaha. No, it's it's a blessure having
you hear again this time at a new new facility you've been
widders in vienna, two times and i just wanted to tell every one
what as been going on between you SOD di and us.
So maybe some of you instructor courses and before that regular
online courses, and we did multiple service oder hard
service tracking with you. We did video directionals and i
have been in sweet nothing two times at your facility, two
times is way to. It's not in off, so we definity
have to visity again and this your we started out for the
education in the online program that you have i we can work froo
your app and the progression plants there it is a great thing
so every one with listening a watching you should definity
used the app store and check out yes to the i app for some fancy
dog training all about tracking. Directionals with the laseral,
verbals detection, byte work, funktional mediens and jens is
constantly working to make a bigger program.
So we really a preciate is, and we we've a lot to learn and
you're, but this time we're not the student so we are all we
students, but we we organized this workshop and we're eger to
learn more and what you train the others.
So you how are you doing? So far, it's been very funded.
It's it's really a nice facility, you're a move to and
it's small of the very nice groupal don'hamders so i really
am do it. Great Great.
I think everyone it it's oh was this is something that i have.
Learned from training with you at s wdi to run through more
practical exercises and have the short the rettical actures in
between what is a nice balance setting, so it's not just a half
day of sitting in the classroom and i have in a half day in the
field, think is many people preached is.
So we have definity started to the thing sins two of five years
when we met the first time. Specialy people like we have
here today who work in the on forses or the police and they're
working as do on this, there not really used to spending a lot of
time sitting on there behind the listing so i think it's
difficent. You's.
Difficent for me at least to. Have there attention for half a
day in the roll spectrificant spick it up with practifications
in between. Definitiv so you Menschen to the
Facility and you travel a lot for many years you of sene a lot
we we have started few years a go to do it almost like you at
things to year one of the bcs p client o.
And we have sene a lot we have had hour old or first facility,
not action in not a first. I have have a facility in Tirol
you've indaris well and in vienna now we are in lowa
austria and it's the nice place i think we have improved for
some parts for sure we also lost big operitunities talking about
the surrounding so was in industria Zone in vienna, it was
great because we have so many buildings and.
In streets that we can just use we have nabor so erneut us or
felt erneut from us because of walking the dogs a long the
street me we have to seminar room with propertoilate's and
running water and the actually in the training hall is bigger
and the old one, but and I've see in yours in in Skins cut to
belly is it pronance that we. All most.
Ja, Nevermind what the you think apart from the financial part
because everything costs of of money, but what does a training
center like this. We are you or we train with
different clients of clients for many for detection, but also for
obidian so whitework tracking what is required to do.
Successful Training. Puh, One, I think Electro room
is nassesarry we're you have what's and doing this time?
O the air so the people can't going here and see down and talk
look at videos of the training that win doing but a port from
that i think. The Training Hall we have in
Sweden. It's good because it's enormes.
It's an indoor soccer fill. Yes, we've great.
With the room temperator orly around and is specialy in
sweden, we're the unpredite about that is nice when you want
to train technic and things, but the down side of all of facility
is that it's one large room of me be three. 1000 square meeters
and that's not really help for manitimes so i would prefur to
have the posibility as you have down here to great rooms inside
the room a lost for more rogue teams training of the same time
without disstracting it chader and it or so a lost for more
different set ups and the szenarios so idealy i would like
to have a food. Apartment towns we're maybe ten
Apartments. We're you're can change things
as but the financial sign in be. We were thinking of singdies
modul style cqb. Things that you can change
frequently have and this in the big hanga or in the big hall.
This will be pretty cool and it could be done, but of cores it's
depending on how flexible on to stay to change the the rooms
etc. And the floors, but it's it's
just up of work so we are still working here of course and
that's one of all of biggest problems to time to find to.
Do the constructions and and your and we should workout a
dogs and and do the workshops, but that's also what i like
about this one you want to do it zimmerland and the end of
because we it is two floors with the containers, but we in
fortunate we never got to do it because now we have to build
everything down and back, it's we it was it of work of cours
but ja. But is they're anisting that
you're for example, here and that you're missing total
missing. No not really you have the
gravel field not for from here. We're you can practice bury
targets. Didn t see the club yet that we
are no. Will.
To use, yes, it is only a minute a way von her.
Also we are for the Sergeant, Rescue things et cetera, but
also for detection and everything else, we will try to
rent parts of the woods, so there they belong to the to the
state, it's feed a woods and we want to rent is on hactors of
it. So then we can just go there all
you along also with the clients it just easy what be easy
because he're in austria, you're not loud just to go into the
with cars and it's special he're not a loud to let the dogs run
because it's like hunting or the dogs kurz start hunting it's it
also we're many things to we a we're of and this what be grate
because it's also just. Thirty seconds by Car and and
you're in the Woods, so we're trying to get this things on to
evan have a big a opportunity to not on the work in the cent of
here because like in our instructor class right now,
we're haveing twelve participants and then it get's
crowdy here it's it's great it because the dogs are geting used
to work beside it other. Also this was an i sting in the
pass days because that we're and used to that and have and work
dogs working at the same time only if you meters apart for me
chada i think that's a big benefit people sometimes stright
to aboid it, i think because they think the dogs concentrate
brexit that's what we're going for building and dog that it's
able to signor this roundings but of cores with with twelve
participants, two trainers and i think the.
One of the summer workshop see it was and the forty eight dogs
because every one bringing two, three four five dogs, but them
that was graudy a graudy place, but I'm happy, I'm happy for now
what we have hear and he's greated you so it and also you
so the part in the valley on the thirstay the House of Stephan we
do the environmental things. It's.
Very like so basic kits of the broken building and a will
building but. Yeah, everyone should have a
rage room like that you have a rages, but you can just to the
born and the dog have to crown under or climb up.
Ja things to fetchit. So talking about detection
because function rebeedians doesn t andy quipment.
Of course weapon at distractions and people Dogs etc.
But talking about detection, we are rut a more in need of
different science of equipment. We have the brick falls we have
the line ups, the cent we is even the machine, the i yet
haven t showed you in action what and i know it that you're
not a big fan of fancy. Equipment things except for the
kynotic trainingsbitle. Of Cours II like Gear Yeah
Equipment. Ok.
What i think most of the time one, we're training detection
dogs that they ten to come with cine effects and usually one
people by expensive equipment they ten to over use it.
But if you buy a very expensive sam to real, you can to use it
for more things and just imprinting new odors and the
usually that's not bring andy benefit to a real world and the
textion dog. You have it was all something
that i have florence from not expensive equipment Pots, for
example, from the brick for or the line of see it.
I tend it to welcome it to open to long, so i bill the lot of
energy on it and the expectency and it was nice to see the dogs
willcon it but i couldn TE medially copy paste is behavior
to different environment etc. So i think people get a little
hang up in this context. Yes, i see that a lot of this
one and it's very convenient from the big.
What is standing that just to will out them do that's but.
A. Port from makeing the doga
bitmore tired. We're really don't game and it
think. Ja, still, it's it's a really.
I think to us and when i was in America Cameron shot me this
this comic picture of. Because the Americans make fun
of us of cours of us, the europeans and we was like the
dog sniffing the brickwall and it's at the brickwall operator.
It was it was at rest to a different trainer, but i've hot
it's of cours, it's just a choke but i specialy of people don't
really think there's out in to different modivested we run
through without dogs in the progression plans.
They happin to see a lot of brickwall search, but this video
is arch just to easy to make because you don't have to follow
the dog, so it just but the tripe pot there and to camera on
it and just and videos anderstand if they it think that
we're main the trading on the brick for, but that's not the
case i also chahara or videos. Now the brickwall is us for.
One of the first weeks of the detection Dogs Training main bit
to dcreast a mount of odor and get the high sniffing frequency
and we want you can't we have limited aria with it ogas high
spectation to find odor, and then we can trusticly dcreast
the odor amount very quickly and stadel have the ogmotivate to
search what for that it's not really.
Beneficial for that herpes, it's heart to find anything that is
as beneficial. We also like to train different
handler exercises there to also things that we talk to about
today that and actually this is one point for it self the.
Handler exercises in the dog train because we focus soma on
the behavior of the dogs at we happen to run in to this clever
hunts effekt because in clear searches wear the handler nose
wear the targadies they have a change of behavar before even
the dog changes is behavar and so there for a like the
brickford to give in different task is because many times the
dog behavar there alreadies like backed up and.
They they have an expectance it know what to do and then we can
ask the hand of to do different things that they mabal maban
need in operational search, but it's just for them to see how on
what the dog reacts what they do is it movement is it talking
leash handling things like it could have in to the dog is
searching and son be have a but it call the for stretch on the
leash. And some how to dog shows an
indication because you know see that's a bridge, so we want of
cores this not to happen and we can work again so i think
they're many interesting things and sile facts about things like
that, but as you said, we don't want to stick for it to long is
there any other equipment that you think special for
centitection that's use for. And we have talked about the
search consols in one of all premies togs so.
That's us von who i know it to think so the Pensum how will the
fine quipment but something we offen all.
Fors to us is some kind of odor carrier, something we
contaminate with a real odor because it's difficult man a
times to bring echoes, it's so the contax in two certan
environs so if you kind that that's equipment, i think that's
something that's a really important and.
Really the service putting a not to so ten eferting two a post
from that not so much actually detection is not very
complicated and in manyways don't havaryes it's one of the
is your tosk that we can teach the.
Working Dogs I think the Challenge is in the the order
Force and the order Präsentation in Training.
And fusure most of us also me and should take more carabut
handling of or or samples and that was also one of the point
of your points in the post days to take carabut it because there
is and we will get to disalitator the.
The danger of over shadowing for example, but that's get to this
a little later that's dick to this for that.
We have also just menschen to clive hunts and we's so it if
you times that as as at the dog handles show a show, a
difference and there behave your before the dog das and.
Maybe for for some business that are not that deep in the topic
could you explain white so important to also take car of
the hendas behavior and why we have this exercise is to walk in
a certain pace until the dog shows a full for the train to
indication behavior. So in Series right simpon, so we
want the dog to act on the on juice.
In obidians or one to start searching or one to bite and we
want to dog on the to indicate on the specific you and that is
the target order or the range of target orders to so we strange
to search for and in order to he of the dog opachunity to learn
this. We need to we strange the
handler because many handers one to.
Hell there do and what they're actual doing is that they or not
happing the go there just teaching the do that it will be
rewarded if it respons to other q's then the actual town odor,
and then we get a cleverhons effekt and many times this cuse
on not really delibrate. It can be that the dog hander
without knowing it and the dog starts to complose to the target
odor. The Hander eater Stops or slows
down or Start walking behind the dog that's from where you want
to deliver the infos to and the dog is born to pick up on or
this smalltions and the specialy.
From domestication dokes up in domesticated for mode and twenty
thousand us, and we know that they are exily boar and we're
the expectation and human pointing and gazing so they pick
up on all or juice and i have for real handcraft people and i
have a put tape of we're face even is there was harry in the
face as you or to keep them from?
So things at just to make it east here for the dog to
actualer and that I'm rean forest for indicating on the
target order as you not and is behavio from the hanter.
And that's so helpful for for the dogs and for the hantas to
understand it and. The capability of or the task of
the dog is to search for the cuse in the environment to show
indication behavior and the hand was really like they should
upserve and there part is maybe to sende dog and here or there
are they mistespot or but not teaching them like it's not in
no beagan task to follow the hand on till, the q is give and
there. No and.
Special in the beginning of the detection training, this is
important that the do get the chance to response to the target
odor, but then lateroom in the detection training and the doke
as learn that yes the trigger for me to integrate that is the
target odor nothing ams, then we need to bring to the doke
hundred back in. So then we have the also ja
that's go down this. We ret a tony, so the pond, the
probability of detection so you need to design that when you
start training and the is the probability of detection i want
so do i want. If there are a hundred targets
or i search a hundred cars that contain nacotic for exposes for
expect to dog to find ninety, present or the exposes or achty
present or ninety present and that's important to deside
because that will influence your search heatern.
So and you have set your pot, the probility of detection you
need to deside what is the minimum relible distance?
We're your dog will actually pick up on the target odor so
some odors or more volatype then others and then if you
researching for explosivs you should dimension this.
From the least volatile outdoor, so that's a new test searching
for a specific explosive, you're don't needs to be with in five
centimeters from the outdoor if or it's reliable activit he can
appoment and then it's my or main out going to indication but
them if you have you're pot of seventy prozent and you have
this minimum distance of five centimeters.
That means you as the hander needs to bring the dog to with
in five centimeters of at least seventy prozent or the plation
places, we're cooled be target order siddom because we can have
a make the dog understand this. Yeah.
The dog is the nose and you and forge not the have to have to
the brain and exactly we responsible for this, but that
com's late dring the training. Ja and fusure like II was think
to myself. It's we train the dog in the
disziplin, we're x ly we have no real grass of what is happening
we have only little ideer of how is send behaves and acts and
performance so II rid it tright to stay away from the dog
learning with the or after. Giving them the idea what to
search for and they're have them different.
A proches i talk to man a different trainers what I've
learned from you and also back them from to bears of corses
that we like II want my dog also to understand what to search for
have and high sniffing intensity and then i also let them.
Search in they're onway to to find out how how day work the
best before i start except for line ups before i start pudding
to much structure on the dog and guide them through a room and
other train as and it make senses well and told me no day
they would water put more structure on it and the very
beginning because they say the dog, it's loose, it's sell flate
a on anyways. So what have been your thoughts
and and what was your progression?
How did you started attackion when you started working on
detection, did it just let the dogs run loose, we're you
guiding them, did you, i don't know use a targets to lead the
dogs or was basicly natural and we just rectlike this.
So as for as I'm seeen, there have been no.
Stud is showing what is more or last effective one it coms to
this and my experience so far is that it ready doesnt metal.
You will arrive at the same and resuled anyway, but you start
off haveing to don't just doing free range sniffing or very
structure. As long as to dog, get the
chance to dog that it's just the target order at triggers
dinglication I'm not sin and the difference in there and result
just teams to be different out to the same and.
And tristing. It is so.
Like my falls are sins, we know the Dogs are.
Like's Canning Outs and heaving Outs and there mind so much we
calls that's what a doggies checking out what we're up to i
try to not make them to gain to many ideas that i could help
them in and away so i would a rada leave the dogs in front
lone or projecting to one want behave her like.
Questioning or or's all things like that but.
And I've ree what if you're take in to consigration that training
in the text and doggen my take three monts and then it's you'd
stop work to work operation and then the hundred needs to be
people to guide the dog because the dog.
Simply does and the have any understanding of what the tosk
is that we want to find or of the explosives or all of
denercotics the dog is just searching for something that my
bring the reinforcement and it just so based on the expectation
we have created where the targets maybe hit them and sins
operation and dogs or working in new context constanty.
The don't have to make sure the dog is in with in fible ten
centimeters from all the spons the dog will just go are it
things the arcotics or exposes is it and so it the pens for
arcotics dogs you can be more slop because it's not.
Really important what they miss, it's more important that they
find what you schally one comes to explosive stones, it's no
posit, it's they're important that they don't miss a lot of
explosions and then the strategie and protocol and
training has to be a big different.
And you just talk about like spending time at the brickfall
for around one week. Or Training a detection dog in
three months, so most people will here this and select how is
that evenpossible but of cors in many authorities, there is just
not more time given to the to the handers to spender timemavy
in the dogs school and run two is urtan cours and at the and to
have this xm of cours, they keep poply learning and improving and
generalizing etc. So this.
This time set up so like the the posibilities are limited of
cours, but you can get quite far in this an out of time.
For sure with detection for sure and ja, because it's relative
the uncomplicate but you would reach a certification level, but
that's just the dogs. The start of the dogs, carry and
setting that's like taking the driver's licence whenyou're.at
and most of us. We're not the best driver's at a
ten that comes a be we peak around, i don't don't don't't
can't right now and i just just it's like that the dogs as one
they peak two, a three yars hoster the sertification test.
So my question now for this xls when you have like hash a certan
goal in you're a view to region a certan a pure the time and we
talked about the principle based training and also about the rule
based training them was don't terms and we saw and discref
that the rule based training. Mics impossible that you like
have a fast improvement of behavior, a fast learning in the
very beginning, but even the a fall down when it get's more
complex and etc. We're as the principle based
training as a slower level of rise rise in the skillset of
certa behavious. But shows a bigger improvement
when it gets more complex and more detailed and more cenary
based. Maybe so the longly stay in the
in the Program you start on the stand more and that for be a
will to learn faster, but to you maybe in in the words to dewput
it is esterday discrimed what the difference is are and and
maybe have one or two examples. I can try her atlist.
I think the rulevast learning is for example following a
progression plan, so if i give a dogehander a progression plan of
maybe a hundred steps how to train the indication the
systematic search, so then the dogehander can follow this step
by step by step, and then they can have quite rapid.
Progression without really understanding the underlining
principals of learning or over shadowing etc.
But at some point they will find difficulties in there work,
we're it's clear to them that i've just been following this
reciple i kind of applyed on new.
Senorios and then they will be lost and the opposit would be if
i show up here with the doghanders and say that for the
next two weks we will just talk about basic learning theory and
i ask them to rights reed reed scientific papers on everything
from operant. And classical conditioning to
over shadowing and different reenforcements get us or the
things that we use and readay. But if we kind of really apply
them immediity it they be horn for many doghanders to keep the
interest in it. But if we manage to understand
this basic underlining principals and they all not that
many then we can apply them in all citrations with the dogs, so
then we can rise for about the simple steps on the progression
plan because the progression plans can just the scribes so
much of the variation that don't us will encounter.
What what all does like what all does principals?
He's it understanding the learning theory, knowing what
behavaries and how to manipulated.
So, i would say you can get the way noing there is you
principons and what is more important, the knowing them is
to apply them, so if we go to the simplest one the operant
conditioning. Modell that's that's the bases
of all dogl Training what we want to do not that is what we
actually us and the for understand that the definition
of a punishment is something that the crises the frequence of
a behabor and that definition of a informement is something that
in crises the frequence of a behabor and we can that.
Plan the Training and we can access the training we have made
if we have an taddan inquis in the frequenz, we're lever and
then it hass and bingreen forest what the we was aiming all at
that or not is not interesting, it's live a hass and the curd so
if we're unter standard and the play it and.
Over shadowing is one of the other principons, premax,
principan and all of this. I was i unnown to all most all
dog Trainers and professional dog handers but what i see at
least is that the really successful and well performing
dog handers and dog trainers or the ons for also a ply them.
Yes. Maybe they don't know moral of
the fancy advance learning theory, but they applian the
basics and that's what make the big differance.
I don't know it's that was a good experination it was a long
one of this. Is what i have for was and the
example as a forerogies to like the military.
And when you get into the military that you follow, this
is a based, so i this was very visual.
Just Ted me What you want me to Shay and I.
Know what's it was Perfect was Perfect?
That's the case with expectency so no, but it it makes it makes
all of sense and i think again when people here or see this
graph they. Ok, no, we have to work with
trains to the based training only, but it's like it's it's
not one or the other we i think you we have to start
understanding special for mercedes in young trainers get
very deep in to the learning theory that they to do training
shaping only or modeling only or.
Operant conditioning only and no classic condition, we just not
the idea but win learning about these principals we have to
separatem so we can tog about this and that and that's a model
for this is a gress for that. There's a video we tog about
this topic, but and practical work it all gets together at
some how and like a rule based training doesn t mean that we's
kip to progression plans it still nice to.
To work with to not loose i're path of not loose in be overview
for we want to go to and also to on the stand why we have be in
success for on to now because we can't just check ok this where
the goals that we have. Post so it's i would's a both or
neces are both the rudes based learning and the principal space
learning of. They on need roldem is
sufficient and of so we need the rules based learning, but we've
out the principals we will quickly get los and if you just
to principal based learning, that's the typical academic
person who no's a lot of theory, but can not converted into
practical dog training so. We really need both of them and
it's perfective find if some people or amoring to the
principals and some amoring to the practical roops based
learning, but we need a booth. Ja, but this was again like i
for it you talking about this things and II just that an
interesting phone call with a friend of my in Germany.
He also works for a big, a sorry to there and.
If mind, this is an a story, but now i lost the the the point,
but I've like slash no i do will I'm talking about.
So but you know it is play you have we're a friend in german.
I've at least one friend in Germany and you're what's the
not the point was about the. The Training, Training, Training
dogs that's talk to the train dogs.
It was Grate. Oh, that's what it was we have
we we listen to this things we seal and the presentations and
some times we think like of course we have seen the model of
operent conditioning classical operition so many times it get's
boaring but. Two out these repetitions we we
start thinking in the different way because we can already apply
it. A lot more experience find
exampers of all owen training et cetera, and think that we have
see in and we compare it so and in this parts today i think for
myself i have again on the stud. These two examples of the rule
based and principal based training a lot better to
maybefalt that important, but it's just nice to understand
things and to think of them in differentway when you apply them
and when you go in to the training center or and the field
and and work it for and that's also important for do's who
think only practiclex as i discount.
And understanding white the practical thing works.
I think that's it lease for a trainer and they're helpful to
beable to explaine why and houndal things work.
It's critical. Ja.
I the white if you're just surpriseed how good or Bad
things work i we don't have me andy idea o why it's very hard
trustsure and training from that.
So at liz, the trainer needs to understand it, but i think in
many agencies. It's not really agnnotic how
like training the dogehander dos even of they don't have a
sixteen ours of designate training time for week for the
doghander every time the doghander actually takes the dog
out of the car. Things will be we in Forst or
punished ja, evenifits not call chaining in the week as gadual
so the don't hunders I've really really chainer do's a lot also
we in the everyday it life so the more they know about the
principals the easurity is for them to apply them of course.
And definits. And that's what i like i think
in one of a first podcast you. We talked also about trades for
trainers or henders and you said the curious and it's not what's
ding is german in german is selbstverständlich i get not.
Sure that everyone things that way or acts that way but they're
incurious is so what fun to and discover new things and and
start to understand things that you falls that you on the stud
or no already in the betaway we're see them under different
light. I think we it.
Important Dragon knowledge that stane furious that can be a goal
in obit self rich it is i think for proxampen you so you get
rean forest by learning new things you re the lot of books
you talk to a lot of people so you get rean forst by that and i
think it's just us good with. People are doghanders and they
are not actually the juriosnos is juriosnos juriosity juriosity
is not the and gold, but there and it's the beer is the and the
gold is. To you to little beer, the.
And the gold for them is to baby to protect them senfs or they're
comic searching for explosives for exampen.
And then the curiosity because means and important means to
reach that and the gold and that is just as important as a driver
for curiosity. In a Perfect world do you think
it would be smart to have more trainers that prepair and train
dogs and. Guide them them together with
there handles rut of an haveing handas bing force to try to the
learn so much about dog training.
That's was a leading question, but this was to bing force to
learn so much of the. Ja.
What II Think? It's mainly from an economic
point on you. I think it's good that and don't
handers learn and look to out don't training because so what
we've spoker and just before that they continues be train the
dogs what there they want to one not but from an economic point
of you, i think it's better if you have people who are devoteed
to doing the basic training on the dogs bekommen ready good
that that. And then giving the dog to the
Dog Hunters, so the Dog Hunters doesnt have to spam time doing
the really basic stuff rich they are problem in not as good that
doing eater. Because they only do it navy, is
you summit up three times in there carrier and they get three
dogs and even more critical. I think is as unit they run to
problems because the problems are.
It's like it's a big a deal. I think to to get rid of the the
problem callsing components finding the triggers or dealing
with the consequence is that with calls and the problem kubik
going so II was think how could be gone in the more effective
way. A part from other problems like
the selection, the poor selection of dogs and the
minimum of the budget that is open for for buying dogs etc.
Think it's could be done in i'm lot more cleverway.
It's good so right now what grinds my gear is that there is
such a waistage of money because in some units.
They have a police, we're military working doghander
training there dogs for six ons or some time to a year and a
full time a employed person for one year that cost to lot to
money. The problem is that that's from
an other account and from where they for example by dogs, so
it's never visualized how x. Spensive this way or chaining
dogs really is so in many countries or the dog trainer is
responsible for chaining the dog fully chain dog costs $100000 or
more because the expendt six monts or eben one year chaining
this dog and that's crazy expensive.com per twif they buy.
Prepared Dog, das heißt been trained by a Professional
Trainer wedrits you at the agency or a private company.
I'm in they can easily by such a dog for attent of that cost and
then the dog henry's up and running and connectional be
operational much quicker, which will again save, money and time,
so this is crazy. But it test to do with
administrative yes is just that the costs all not place to i
they actually belong. And and do you talk about this
train dogs on the private sectoral or these actually a
thority, so it's band it am all of moni.
For Dogs, so the thorities or the ons banding most money by in
Dogs. Both from private companies and
from the owen breading and training programs and one it's a
trade of if a government heißt it's owen breading program.
The selection, the based training and and operation and a
dong hunders a dong if i make a rough astimate cost someware
between hundred 1000 and two hundred $1000 because ow.
Madey forty Prozent of the dogs that or born in the breading
Programm actually make it to the first certification, then the
other sixty Prozent they get lost long the way but or has
been money and time invested in that in aswatch or and then the
dogh hunder will then have to continue the training compatrive
they as they do in. Are units they by pretrain dogs
and then they don't have to deal with all the dogs that all not
possing to the and that's so other ritaria botanican is.
There's war in Europe and people kind of go to them at ans and by
dogs and it would have been better to breed them on the on
in the on governmental programm. Sure it's it's pros and cons
with everything, but it's always extremity or expensive to have
you're on greading program and the have you're on dog on the
strange the Dogs. You're so they should news der
situation and learn more from it navy.
But it depensive if there is. I Mean II know about don't
trading, but i don't really have a good overview of the global
politics, so maybe we are closter to a war and i no and
then it will be clever to have you're owen briefing to Programm
so i think so one alles and me should make that it's.
Now we will not not politics here.
Ok and not a point that i wanted to strive bevor we go to the
overshadowing is the sukzessive approximation and also this is
one that that is a like AI car RED-LINE as through out the
workshops and lecture that we have.
And learned from you and that we followed so to the lizeners who
my not be that family with this term sukzessive a proximation
what is it it and actually what i talk when i took is not is
what's the opposit. So, the opposit is trilan air or
ok in the doba training coop context as lead at least
sukzessive proximation is just a fancy term for.
Sign that we gravity and in small steps, get closer and
closer to that endgold. That best that training.
Yes. II latey i started really to use
and ai jet, gpt and things like this so of cores.
I alsoced it what it is in german and it gave me some and
desriptions and examples for physic and mess and.
Engineering etc. So, it's just.
Try to to calculate in the direction of what we're they one
to get one to the third and point.
We're cranteria is met or is closin of for for the rental and
then i also to discribit for me in the with the overall topic
dog training. And erklärte in finish freeding
it because and we went for not a practical access heißt, but it's
started with shaping and it's not it's not wrong, but it's no
it's i think it was a little pour desription but.
It's a shaping is just one zoom. Klicke out because Shaping is
all so have in a clare go, and then breaking that behavior down
in to smaller stops. And Training one port at the
time, but with without haveing looked successive procomation up
in webstores dictionary, i would see that with successive
procomation it plus and have to be a behave your that is split
in to smaller pieces, it can and offen is just the metal distance
or time. Now but it's again, it's a grate
think to think of i think also when it comes to create
progression plans and think your way through and theory from the
way you one to get to and how to just bittle brick on brick tow.
It's disgo help me a lot. And that's going from the thing
like some of does terms and principles etcetera do's things
we like we follow them without noing it in many in many kases.
No coboot. It's freetimes or i think this
is no boot, no. I'm because it if you follow
them without thing about it and. It's really not a nesses are a
principal to concider but to your surprise every man in
people don't and it's not because they are stupid or
ignorant, but it's because they are focusing on something els in
this exercise. Ja, i know it from from other
topics that II do, but we don't fall of the the knowledge that
we would have from other. Branches and it's crazy how i
don't know who that in this words like human beings or a
such pur alone is it's so hard for us to generalize knowledge
from on topic do an all. It is.
It's so there we because it interesting or depressive.
But i think to our excuse now it's not from excuse, but.
I think doggus are even more context dependant so i agreed
it's very hard for me and for us as humans to generalize norwich
and i think it have to realize that we're poor at it, but or so
to realize that dogs are even struggling more with this so and
order for them to generalize we need to investelotto so can
time. Ja, ja, defen sie.
It's a cool thing i like those fancy sounding terms and and
headlines. And in everything sounds
battering English, maybe not fing a spitzgefühl that sounds
best in German. The for the mother terms and
like soul Card, no or Wiener Schnitzel.
There is no no such word in English.
To ashley sounds horrible of they tright to parance it, but
we will have a really grate in a today hotel post in melic i will
one this in you should visit is but ok, but we we we live it
like it's sukzessive a proximation is is a smartway to
tright to get klauser to you rent go.
Just and it's one of this extrem, the simple principles
that most of us failed to actually use in practice.
But i think because peaplar to stress and they are not the
singesturm for geduld. They are not not humble, but
they like the jack to time they want to get that quicker.
And successive a proximation means again like the principal
based training sometimes to beginning takes a little longer
and the results or not seen that quickly so when you also when
you works through the progression plan, it's like go
for go for go and do may raps on training steps to reach to goals
and just happens that you're successful because there is
almost no room for. Wegen unsuccessful and sometimes
i have to feeling that sometimes handlers or trainers or setting
up in exercise and show it and or like when does the a failure
happen to see look does the work and and then it just work sign
so that's also some. Mabits a cultureal thing in in
Europe that we are that we like to to wate for and problems in
faedure to deal with it rut of an being have in taking the time
to go for to or for success. We.
I think there has been was and it in the book rid we are they
compared the. The Asian kids like this is no
political for korrekt of the Asian kids with the western kids
and they and present it and and nexasized that is no solval to
and the western kids just quit of there's a short period of
time because they on us to the kabis exercise combisoled, but
the asian kids cap going and then they just LK exercise and
they have just stright to feed a out may be through.
Principal based training training out different
principals, but also successive proximation to some how get
there if it's a european western problem.
What i have and i have and sompeled and of cultures and dog
training to bebe to say for sure but i think not from what i of
see in europeans and no. Better or or was them andy other
ok when it comes to this. Ok.
With we all in the dog training, this is business theme to one to
rush things, which we're like sense, but the problem is that
the quickest way is successive proximation it is no trial and
error to take big steps to see candable do this candable do
this. And sometimes that's not really
that's going to intuitive that it's quicker to take smore stops
and. Patients was the one that was
looking for we're not patient in not in many times and.
The on differenz i see is that and now i sound like the old
Grumpy man i am just not it comes, we the h.
And experience because i can see more experience people doing it
with successive approsion nation, then i see young and slu
and anthusia. To but that's it's interesting
point of think because that's something i have realized fring
to see myself from the inner eye.
That i'ffler and through the years of cores haveing trust in
your plan and you see out is on in two certain problems, but you
but you just to them gib on going, it's it's it's ok, it
will get there and so when i remember myself doing the first
online progression plan was you will.
I don't know I'm any steps it head back them was around and we
seventy steps or think something like this and in be two and we
have around twenty steps of laser directionals in the took
me over a year to get to the point and the remember i'm
asking you have far have we got because back them you all was
unlocked only three goes ahead and it was like driving true the
fog i was have, we was things i saw i've like in no.
We're alles to get and and was the second dog a rent for it,
quick rent and resorted understanding the principals and
also fine and i're all aways for it and now also knowing you have
in to trust in the plan i have to check out another work witch
is importment this. The process i think it that's on
the great in English trust the process.
And i think that's mistake. I made them not just alowing you
to see the next tree steps in the phone because that do's not
alowing you to see the home prozess so that was just not
very effect and. We'll oh it was in Bad.
Hey it really a for me, it was. I clear still think it's a very
interesting way because now for example, we we unlock chapters
in the plan in some of these chapters II suggestional was is
to chapter hole Chapter, read it watch the video clips in this
chronology to get an overview for this expected and where the
journey will go to etc. And sometimes for for some
people, this just great because it's like this is going to
happen and for out it's like how how ever what i reach this level
of performance and so the three steps i enchoid it, but what
annoid me was not knowing how many how many more three steps
what what beater your sam. So it's requires that you have
trust in the people who have grate to the plan.
I do weiß, it will not be you have so i think the cons out the
way the pros one of coms to doing it like that on forge not
you. But bean tristing to have a what
are they cold and the charakter jackobs.
What Kind of character likes to go is this or that is AP
interesting because i like it? Is so there's problem and
diagnose is for that. So last but not least, time is
flying. Wow, it's talk about the
overshadowing and the overshadowing is not a detection
topic, so it's everywhere in or everyday lives and consuring
dogs and not consuring dogs. But we we one into this topic a
lot and so there are some parts of over shadowing that are need
it and wanted and different aspects.
We try to avited sometimes it's helpful in the beginning to get
rid of cuse and or to get to transform the cuse from verbal.
Or from from physical or body language to verbal kuse et
cetera, but baby you can tellar of viewers and listeners.
What is the overshadowing? And then you will tell me if i
to do. It's a want to me to kind of so
i don't say it's so that's dort in this and if we.
It my be most important for a person w ons to shane or hundred
a dog to no the differenz between primary and sekundary
infosers and then how to use this with a oper and
conditioning modeble as the framework that off to that when
a person as hundred stud and apply that i think over
shadowing is the next. Principal that is very important
to i knowledge because as you set it will affect or training
and handling everyday or most in or or disziplins and one example
to be one, we teach the dog to sit.
Then we use lurring most of the time because the dog as no
understanding of the swedish or English language, so if we's i
sit it means nothing to the dog so typicly them we lurre the dog
to sit we have food or toy and on, but it toors and a big
opports and the dog going to the position and we can rinforce
that but then made we do that for five minutes and off to five
minutes. There is you do's who it not sit
when you lured them, but if we then continue luring the luring
we don't so bekommen the q and that's not what we want we want
to replace the luring with the verble q sit and if i don't make
the luring at the same time as the verble q if i do like this
sit. Chance is or that my hand
movment we'll over shadow the verble true because this
following this as been rin forest for the postfive minute
and a movement is for mostokes more and more salian stimutive
them a we're because we talk a lot and it means nothing to the
dog. So then in order to avoid the
over shadowing of the movement, i need to get a new q before the
old q so i need to sit and then do the lovering then we can
avored over shadowing and then we need to be disziplin and
that's what the handkaufs my commin to picture if people kind
of thay wave them moving air hand.
And offen. We think we just doing a very
smore supernovment, but it will steel over shadow the verble
Judo and not get the dog a chance to.
And there it's a interesting to do a video analysis when the
people see ok, when does the dog act from the verble cuted comes
first or short motion? Ok, what i really hope that you
what have. Not a Excel what i have no.
I singer what it's comes to we shut it i have an infinity of a
haupt of excel and. And.
We just to tam me witch one I'm. Choking Never Never Quit choking
Spaß nie beiseite as Stefan Sess so.
Of course, i think this is a great example and specialy.
I think special when it comes to detection dogs i or working dogs
that we're training now is i one to reli or i wanna have a
reliable dog on global cuse because in many cases they will
not have to chance to observe and myself as i hand was so.
And that's not even talking about radio guide a training.
This is just about having a dog who's no this not torts me but
somewherels and and when i gift is disriminatives QI want in to
react, but for for the topic detection it would be very
christing for all listeners to understand the idea of this over
shadowing when it comes to the q of odor.
It was the the ordor of the the target ordors of are dogs you
them. And wenn wenn the found of used
a dog to show, so it behavior indication behavior, what have
we want to call it or how it to look but we talk to about
contamination of training ordors today and yesterday and that
there is a risk specialy with the example of soliva that gets.
On to the odors or on the training samples and what's
what's the problem of that because i think they are.
This is AA little thing that many people to on the stand and
inprove there training a lot because they get mork a careful
about how to handle do's things and baby you know how to aboy
it. Here's so there's i have a
problem. Heap in myself, short what?
I just have to go to the toled and really hungry but take your
time and. So, if for example in the
beginning of the training you they do line ups, so then you
will for example, have a line of with six containers, we you have
a send, we will six or twent containers and then.
I want my dog to indicate heroin was i put heroin or something
apps it does and battery what in the containers and if we don't
have the six containers i have heroin in this one and the dog
is searching. And it finds the heroin here it
will stay longer here. Then will the at the ones so it
will breathmore and it will probable, also sniffmore here so
there will be some saliva and myukos from the nose, and that
means this container will, is man a literable different and
the at the ones. And if you or down alacy Person,
so you i don't Ted my Twister on me, you take Twister and you moo
this hold container in the linel and the next time.
The Dog is searching, it finds the right container in your
mind, just I'm rewarding the dog for indicating the Heroin in the
Dogs mind as What's Mans here is.
My saliva. Could be it lease, there is a
big it. Executly we don't have the
control or what it is, we're reenforcing the dog for we just
see that it's indicates the right container we feel happy.
Because we know that it's there and that's i think one of the
mostin christian questions that you off few times and parts
todays is. When we watch some videoclips
and you are what has been reward it and the people who listen and
watched are in the topic so that's at what the indication
behavior what what did really happen or what did the dog
really sense in the moment of hearing the sekundary force or
receiving the primary one. And it's family easit to test
what behaver do we see an increase frequency on and what
we see manitimes if they don't change the container, so if they
don't take out the harry and put it in the other containers, but
just move the hole container is that the do's will go and
indicate this container was them beatn rewarded for indicateing
that container because it's men of a more newcos or soliba.
Or because it's men of something different or in the worst phase
because they have been touching it when moving because for
manitogs the henders send is very saliant send and if the
logis reward it for indicating this container, it's quite likel
that it's reward it for indicating the henders send so.
And this happens a lot also when we're more advance, then the
line ups so when we start hiding if we hid there cot, it's here
in this book, and we send it oak to indicated search indicates.
We're a one it and then we're lazy so we don't replaceed
target and we send it oak from the other side, we're send a
second o to search and indicate the same.
Then we Owen solus control, we're the dog is indicating the
heroin or the saliva on ukurs oh we've you're been trowing a bowl
this outer all, the bowl here and that is onevery.com and
reason for produzing for the words in dos and.
What you said at this is very important to think of and
we're.com and the dog is. In the early steps of auto
conditioning because i think later on this is also good
distractor and fusure that maybe you you even used at a can or it
tin that not a dog indicated on, but distok was searching for con
and distok now a search is for. Explosivs and night a noah
should indicat on the can. We're also the bit and
Indication. So we need to prove the dog off
of the stings, but if we have privacy reen for them for
indicating they're on solivar other dog solivar it just makes
the road bumpir it we take more times and maybe more importanty
the dog, he sexual and not searching for experience.
Blow sips, what is what we think so we will them miss more
explosivs them we what have need it to a the wise so i think at
least from the point we're start to inprint the dog with the
actional target odor, then your sense of odor hi gene should be
very hi. And you need to think here that
you don't create and the other liest come on the nominators,
then the actional target or and this produzes or kind of
practical problems so for x onpalu if we want to contaminate
things we can i probed the have washa here we can contaminate
this with. Explosives reputed in jar with
exposives and then or some monitudes of exposives on this
one, and then we can place this if we are and to do, we is
snaped indicate and we don't think it's indicating the samt
text oh do, but if i have be touching this got for bit to dog
is. Probering not even recognizing
the samt x ordor because my odor he's over shadowing the samt x
ordor yes. And also your focus goes to the
things you know best, so if the don't knows handle send best he
quicker reax to what you knows best raded and to what you my
patch of learned you there's a go.
For sure. If i think that of course it
mics of all of sense. But it does and stop there and
that's the problem because i think most of us.
We're not touch the object we want to do's to search, but the
eveny find have a tweaser or in the worscase glams touching the
artical that i have contaminated will out or so you find have
this to get a with seventix. Then this is coat some molicules
of sentix, but when i as it in the environment, the molicules
will start to drift away and that's that's as are it groß,
otherwise if the molicules stick to this, there is nothing in the
headspace about for the dog to actually sniff so we need the
molicules to leave and this produces at.
Two new problems that we also and a times create issue was
with detection dogs and one is that at some point this artical
we have last so many samticks monitues that it's men is more
of other things, maybe the material it's constructed off or
maybe other things that is that's bean in contact with.
So I'm thinking, I'm not training i dope to search for
samtex and it's reliply indicating the orkic ins i of
contaminated the dogis win forest for searching for i on
was searches washers or things that have binning contact win
ikea surnicer and that's not what i want my dog to search
for. So when we use contaminated
material, we need mcsure that it is really produzing a strong
odor of what we will want to dog to search for that means it's
disposible items, we're conused and ones, but then we can not
good them back in the jar to get the will out of ones because
that we will contaminate them and it will on so have lost song
of it's explosivens so. With need to throw them away, so
it's quite expensive to you was contaminated articles.
Sure the overshadowing is also something that we use on
purple's white coms to pairing when we do out or conditioning,
so there we trite to overshader the known o'dor i've verry small
beastof.com, for example, with with the new one set.
What Els what comed you're mind when it's going to over
shadowing we're us it or we try to avite it they're one last
example. So trecking is a good example,
there we can back chain the trecking from indicating
articles in the truck. That's an easyway of training
tracking, but then we need to like sure that the excel shrek
over shadows the articles. The vice the dogis just for in
fors for searching for articons and that's not on uncomon in
draging. And i just was eagons for sure
you're going to this problem. We're he's started to searching
kong ralden sticking to the track.
So then we need so for example Kong pieces.
They.com will the benefit that the bog may be train to indicate
compises, but they have the negative side that they's men a
lot yes, so then they will over shadow the food steps on the
going for ex on, and we want to be the other way around so then
it's battle to have a sweatifit walk on the hard service and
have wasers small wasers will small.
Articles what the dogis staying in the contaminated aria and the
twibing contaminateing with all feed and that's where it finds
articles and this reenforce and so we can then make the our send
from our food steps are in shadow the articles we can like
you so it and when we want the dogs to start treking on grass
or veditative surface is. That's what we really need to
take care when i walk on grass it i leave just as my cent from
me as one i walk on hard surface like concrete or torna, but we
want to do just to follow the cent of the human or animal, not
the crust Meditation so we need to take care that especialy on
editate service. We leave a lot of send that can
over shadow the center of the crush preditation because
otherwise we just green forcing that over following the crush
preditation i'm no one to tracking don't like that.
Ja, no Fusion not ja it's grid so the over shadowing is
something that a follow us in over the everywhere in life and.
Thinking and talking about this things proberies the best way to
start understanding them and realizing we're it o cures and
how it effects are training in the performance.
In the training we're we good be more careful and maybe also some
steps, we're we need it and use it so.
And Curiosity also comes in to play because we can offen test.
Like with the tracking champen and i'm sorry if this makes your
blatter explode Hey if i hit Conny you don't can with the
tracking is you have to do the follows the track on grass
perficy find, but when the track enters a hard surface, the do
glucks like the track ends that we know doke is following.
The send of the crust reitation not the send for the human or
animant and it's good to make tests like this.
We don't expect to don't to learn and it's in, but we expect
or sellos to learn what test actually bean green forest for
this no, and then we know ifolos the track of crust reitation and
good then we can right to over shadow the crust reitation.
Exactly ja. That's the information from
failure that is just that is so important and so useful.
And we can make you so we the next do we train of then we can
aboy the failure and be we will fail.
We're some of me ands that. Yes sure grate there was there
was awesome. I have one last question orimos
and last but not least, but this is from my predious guest.
I had one to episode thing quit Christ, we so Christ is not out
to as can equestions and dr. Matthias Sebald I show you
before would is great guy great that so cool had his to certury
dann by him and his question is what dog breed would discrime
bure character. In the forse is would be dog
breeds so he've there is any kind of mix in in your charakter
found so what what it be from the many approved breeds from
the fci and I can't time. The one that coms to mind
instantly no because i want it. But because i think it is like
that is a labrador. Oh because I'm.
You're a grate guy and hungry, I'm.
Almost constanty hungry. Is.
I am family Motivation but I will so have.
A will to please and I'm a bit a frate of the conflicts.
Ok, so I think I'm you have a labrador them andy other toff
breep that like like maybe to i don't find my set fas.
I think Labrador is a great dogs.
So this we're you, we're suppose to say but you're action the
moninal. But it's it's ok.
No, i think them it reality pension what purpus you are
bratford. So or a.
Cokusdaniel oh but yourtwo.com for that.
And it i is so to about cokusdaniel but i have and
irish. Person that would be very upset
if i call myself. Ok, now we're going to do of and
that i know i'm a remisting you would like to announce oh what
is your question, that's the last question, what is your
question for the next guest, not knowing what will be?
Give an what we have just and talk about it would be.
And I hope i don't put in one on the spot here so you have to one
them, bevor we're you they not to with me, no that's what be
there and word example over over shadowing we're they have
created a pattern, that's realimate them strugger you to
over shadowing grate question. I like to was.
Ja, Perfect I will make a not of this one and the ascape to the
next one not get knowing would will be i have to women in mind
to to farto less women on the podcast, but i will be to coming
definitly and i will not tell you guys now would will be but.
I'm the reducting for what to it zone or late a baby find the
time or i will find the time to to interview them grate so any
anything out see what like to point out anything any events or
courses workshops. No not really if people have the
using or progression pance in the app.
I'm very curius for Feedback. Ja, especially what?
What steps they struggle to with and witch needs to be replaced
or split in to smoder steps that will be really haveful.
That's that's a great great point.
Ja, so every one use in the App don't have to reach out and
offer some constructive kritics and ja, i think this is it.
Thank you jens for taking your time and it's always a pleasure
listening to your thols and explinations and a lot to learn
for for all of us. So thanks again.
Thank you guide for listening or watching and the show it have
not been very very pow for i think we're go of a little be
tired and thirsty and hungrig but.
Ja, thanks for listing also don't forget disipscribe to a
youtube channel to the podcast what ever app you listen to it
on spotifine, orables, concasts etc.
He was a rating, let us no what we should do better in the
future and also send a sun options for or suggestions for
topics that i could talk about with my next guests so take care
see you the next time. And we're going to have a great
dinnerer but i. Good.
Super. Super i also need to p I'm
that's you can go first. Go i have there's free toilets.
Ah ok, i will on this take one. Was?