I was in a quote unquote dream relationship.
I lived with my partner and I was miserable.
Embrace it. Find your chosen circle, your
chosen family. They will help you get rid of
all the crap in your head and you can actually be your
authentic self. I would say is when people in
public, like it's in ticket officers, got my pronouns
correct. I think that was the moment
where I kind of felt as if I wasn't constantly being
triggered. I got into activism because I
didn't like the way that my community was being treated, and
I still don't. There's only been one court case
in this country of a trans person assaulting anyone in a
bathroom. One court case and that, and
then only two in the entirety of the US.
I'm probably not gonna name her because I don't make my
insurance or stretch that far. Actually, it's quite publicised.
So JK Rowling. Hello and welcome back to the
Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories.
This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben Cicchetti, and this week I am
joined by the inspiring Rico Jacob Chase.
But before we get to that conversation, I've got a quick
favour to ask. Wherever you are watching or
listening to this episode, hit that subscribe button.
It's one click that's going to make a massive difference.
It's going to allow me to grow this podcast and it's going to
allow me to bring you the best and the Queerest episodes every
single time. So in advance, thanks.
Thank you. Now to my conversation with
Rico. Today, I'm joined by someone
that was on my initial wish list of guests for this podcast, Rico
Jacob Chase, welcome to Queer Talker.
Obviously, thank you so much for having me.
If I wasn't so overwhelmed with everything political, I would
have 100% agreed to come earlier.
But I'm so glad to be with you, be here with you today.
Thank you for having me. It's going to be a vibe.
Yeah, I can't wait. I'm so excited.
I launched the podcast and then everything kind of kicked off.
So I appreciate there was a lot of people that had to kind of
say in some time I will definitely come on.
So yeah, I appreciate you joining me today.
And we're going to start with a little game that I like to call
Queer Panic. It's a rapid fire set of
questions and you just respond with the first thing that comes
to mind, starting with what was the first album you ever owned?
Blink 180 can't read the name to watch all of them to be on the
sea. I used to be a rock band.
Oh. Really.
Yeah, you're. In a rock band, what did you
instrument I was in? Drummer.
I was a bit of a band lad when I was at school.
Yeah, yeah. So I was, I was in choir, jazz
band, orchestra and Olson, my rock band.
I played piano and trumpet and drums.
That's amazing. I love that for you.
And I guess from, yeah, from that kind of music perspective,
what would be your lip sync song of choice?
Oh God, equally nerdy on the street where she lives by My
Fair Lady. I know when I say My Fair Lady
is like Rico, you've got who you are, but that song is absolutely
banger. OK I will, I will admit
ignorance and not know the song so I will have to go and listen.
To it we have a. Playlist that we Add all these
songs to, so listen to it and then add it and it'll be a vibe
for people who was a childhood celebrity crush of yours.
I would say Jameelia, that's how you say the song.
See it in the boy's eyes. I thought that she was
absolutely stunning. Yeah.
But I think I'm more of a sapatosexual now, so I'm not
even, I know people are attractive.
I don't know who I'm attracted to.
Or they're not having to like, stare at you from across the
room for a bit, like scoping out.
I was just seeing if the vibes survived.
It's more about the vibe. I feel that I.
Feel. Yeah, I'm just looking.
I don't know. I mean, I think so.
OK, that's fair. And I guess kind of leading from
that as you stare at people across the room, what is the
biggest red flag for you? Oh, I hate jealousy.
I hate jealousy and envy. I think it's such low vibration.
Like if someone tells me that they've done something, which I
think is amazing, my first response is, Oh my God, that's
absolutely brilliant. You're like, never stop, keep
going. And then I'd be like, wait,
wait, wait, how did you do that? Like, how did you get your
mindset into that? Like, who did you speak to?
And I feel as if when someone says something jealous in
response, it's almost like they infinitely gonna put you down.
Yes. But if I have a bad day and my
entire circle is jealous, you're never gonna achieve anything.
Like, check yourself and check your circle.
I always support people, so that's my red flag.
I'm actually not. I'm bummed.
Yeah. Bye.
I agree. I agree.
People spend way too much time tearing each other down,
especially in the social media world.
So yeah, I think build each other up and be happy for each
other. I think that's great.
Speaking of kind of being happy for people, when was the last
time you laughed so hard you cried?
One of my best friends, John Paul, It runs recreate space,
shout out, recreate space. There we go.
Like, we laugh so hard. It's the point where it's kind
of people, like, who are these dude?
And we're just sitting there chuckling over weird stuff.
Like, I was thinking, that's real French food.
Yeah, exactly. And he just opens his mouth like
a whale and the rest. And I, I literally burst out
laughing like there's no one that can make me laugh like JP.
JP is a real one. I just love that.
I love that. That's true friendship right
there. Where is your favourite place in
the world? Oh, I would say probably where I
am right now. I know that's really, really
boring, but I love plants. I love safe spaces.
I love places where I can decompress.
And Myspace is Myspace. I invite very people over
because I'm about energy and, like, lives and good people.
So yeah, I mean, half of this, this is me.
I worked hard to get here. So yeah.
Yeah, here we are right now. But I really want to go to
Egypt, the pyramids, so I'm going to manifest that.
That's number two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's great. I'm fascinated by ancient Egypt,
so that'd be. That'd be definitely a trip
worth making. What is a queer movie that
changed you? Here's.
Me trying to think of a queer movie.
Oh, disclosure, that documentary.
I love documentaries. Yes.
Also call me by Call me by your name.
Yeah. I cried so hard at the end of
that. That was that was incredible.
But disclosure as in changing my perspective because I there's so
many moments where let me explain disclosure.
Disclosure is documentary talking about the perception of
queer people in the media and how we're always vilified
because it's the only way that artists could sneak us into the
script. But I was just like, is it me?
Like, why did I grow up knowing that queer coding was bad?
Like, how would you get that into a kid's head?
So that was really refreshing for me to realise that the
reason why I have these perceptions is because of media.
And I was like, oh, because once you know, like a light switch,
like turns on on your head and he's like, oh, let me deprogram
that in my own head. So Disclosure on Netflix,
absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I highly recommend it to
people. It's an incredible documentary.
I think it was such an interesting take when they
talked about the fact that up until, you know, even just a few
years ago, trans characters were played by a man dressed as a
woman or a woman dressed as a man.
And that created this perception in people that that's who trans
people are as they are pretending to be their gender.
And that was a real kind of like, I was like, that's
incredible. I never put that connection
together. That is how kind of to your
point, that's how media had built this perception in
everyone, right? And that's kind of what we now
are working against. Oh, sorry, Silence of the Land
did that. Like, yeah, didn't add anything
that they were dressed up in women's clothes.
No, but not it wasn't needed. But it's just constantly
venifying itself anything as. I don't know, I thought as if
the person writing the script, like, lacked imagine imagination
that was like this giraffe spring at straws and thought,
hey, I'm just going to throw that in there to get it, get it
like signed off. And then you think about the
ramifications, Like, what are you saying about this minority
group? And because we don't really have
a voice terse of like massive voice, and they're kind of like
in the fringes, it's really, really difficult in order to to
create authentic narratives. I agree.
Speaking of authentic narratives, is there a queer TV
show that you recommend to everyone?
I would say Orange is the New Black.
I, I love that so much. I think because it had queer
coding, but it wasn't incredibly queer.
That makes sense. Like it was a narrative and if
people just happened to be queer I thought that was quite
refreshing. And also sex education.
Shout that out. My mate Anthony's in it.
Also Felix. Sex education is really, really
good. Nice recommend. 2 amazing
recommendations, both on Netflix.
This isn't sponsored by Netflix, I promise you.
I've mentioned 3 Netflix things. What is a queer book you
couldn't put down? I'll I'll admit like I haven't
done much reading recently. I think because my day-to-day is
mainly reading, I would say girl woman, other is quite good.
That's recommended for a couple of awards.
But honestly, when I take a break, I'm just going to switch
off social media and then just read.
I love that. I love that.
We've had a lot of good recommendations on this, so
there's definitely some good recommendations and that's a
great one. I'm going to have to check that
out. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
I'm India Moore. I would say, like the humility,
the the talented actress, the activism, just absolute
powerhouse. Yeah, I tend to respect people
that are incredibly, unapologetically authentic, but
also care about people. I just feel as if the higher you
climb, the more you forget where you came from, and you can't do
that. You got to bring people up with
you. So yeah, massively Indian Mall.
I love that it's a great choice. What would be one word to
describe your childhood? I would say adventurous, but not
for the reasons that you think. People think that I knew I was
trans as a kid. They were signs.
Well, I was too busy outside making mud pies and climbing
trees and I had like this boy in the street.
We used to cycle around like our streets outside of our bikes.
And then we got this Pikachu. And then I know it's really bad.
We like beheaded it using the bike wheel.
We like turned the bikes on it. That wasn't where I thought that
was going. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I apologise to anyone Pikachu cares about Pikachu.
Yeah. We were just doing outside doing
stupid stuff like that was just, Yeah.
And I pretended like I was a ninja and I used to hit the
flies with my bamboo stick. And I was like, yeah, I was,
yeah. Imagination and and adventurous.
I love that. That's all, Yes.
Yes. What is your five year queer
dream? Five year queer dream.
Well, I'm working on the series right now.
I want that to do well, I think not for me.
I won't tell you tell you about it now, but I'm very, very
excited about it. I think it's the first time that
I put my stamp on something as in like from the get go.
Usually I'm working on clients work, which is nothing wrong
with it. I love working for clients
because I'm very, very good at that.
But I think it's different having your own thing.
Also, there's like a different level of anxiety because you
really have to believe in yourself.
You have to really think, this is what I'm going to do and I
want to work with you. Yeah, you have to.
It's different. It's very, very different.
When I'm with the client, I'm just like, well, the client's
amazing, so you should work with them.
Different selling different. When you're rapping yourself,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
I think I might just create like an e-mail address, be like admin
app so I can pretend by my system.
I don't know, I'll have a little bit more confidence, like how
many more people? But anyway, yeah, yeah, I I
think that but me as an individual, like I'm a massive
family man. So like I'm, I'm working hard so
I can build that dream. And for me families also I have
my partner potentially having kids, etcetera.
So yeah, that for me is a dream. I wouldn't say five year plan
because I'm I'm not sure I can very take care of myself.
I might have had a drink of wood today.
It's like, yeah, but am I? But yeah, that's that's kind of
what I want in the long term. So I think that that for me is a
bit of a dream. Yeah, a lot of dreams gonna be a
reality, but. Cards, Yeah, definitely,
definitely reality. And yeah, maybe we'll get you
back when you can talk about the the project they're working on.
I can get some more details on that.
Let's get a bit deeper because you said adventurous, and I
believe to understand a queer person today as an adult, you do
need to understand them as a young person.
So what should I know about you as a child or a teenager to
understand the Rico that sits in front of me today?
Very stubborn, OK? Like, if I didn't want to do it,
I wouldn't do it. OK, I didn't care.
I mean, I, I worked incredibly hard at school, so I wasn't like
a rebel. Like I, I, I knew the value and
like working hard when it comes to education, but if I didn't
like you, I didn't like you, you know, And I think that that
individuality, obviously I'd still be polite.
You wouldn't know. But if I made a decision, I made
a decision. And I feel as if a lot of people
in as queer adults who are very, very vocal, all of all of us
have that core trait because you, you can't be unapologetic
to yourself. You can't be online advocating
for the rights of yourself and your community and have like
most Hangouts. I mean, occasionally I have bad
days. Yeah, hell yeah, everyone have
bad days. But you, you have to have that
sort of core determination and self belief.
So I feel like that's definitely from my childhood.
But I, I will say though, I only started like identifying with my
LGBT identity at the age of 25. So even though I was very, very
to determine, I didn't necessarily want to disappoint.
Well, I guess my family effectively, I mean, they're
probably going to want to say that on a podcast, but it's just
true. So yeah, at age 25 and I was
actually, no, realistically, I am very depressed.
I am denying so much of my authentic identity.
I was in a quote unquote dream relationship.
I lived with my partner and I was miserable and it just wasn't
working. And I was like, well, why isn't
it working? Because I'm not myself.
How are you supposed to love someone else?
You can't love yourself. So the whole journey has been
incredibly refreshing. I now know who I am.
I think before I really wanted to to find someone to compliment
my life in a sense like we will be whole together.
But then when you are by yourself and you are happy, you
pick people because you will like vibe, like I'm OK, I'm
good. Like if I ask someone out and
they say no, I'm just like, it's OK.
I know I'm, I know I'm still awesome.
But you don't, we're not a vibe. We're like Marmite.
That's OK. We'll be friends.
It's not that deep. But when you haven't done the
work on yourself, that just, it's just different.
So I would say, I know I went in a massive circle just that's
good. But I think for me as a child,
like being very, very stubborn, like self assured, and these are
my boundaries. And if you don't like me after I
tell you no, that's your problem, because this is where
my line is, yeah. I agree with that, Jim, putting
those boundaries in place, you know, to your to your point,
when you put yourself out there the way that we all do, you kind
of can't use your energy on things that aren't going to give
you that energy back. And I think that's where that
kind of feeling of the vibe comes from for me.
When you were kind of growing up, do you remember the first
LGBTQ plus person you kind of became aware of either in real
life or in media? And I guess specifically, I'd be
curious about the first kind of trans person you became aware
of. I think I at school someone
would say, do you know Elton John is gay And be like what
Elton John like? How could he just be out there
in the Etho making songs and music?
And then we'd just look at artists and just be a bit
confused. We're like Prince maybe I feel
like, but because I mean, Section 28, Section 28 removed
all mention of Elgin evil from the school curriculum.
So they couldn't even tell us that bisexual people existed.
So obviously there's going to be some problems.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but growing up, like,
looking at stars, going, like, I'm very confused.
And yeah, even sex education, you know, it does, doesn't make
sense. Like they teach you to put on
condoms, but they don't tell you about, like other people exist
and other sexualities exist. It's wild.
Yeah, so I would say probably some of the big musicians, yeah,
like Freddie Mercury, like Elton John.
I think those were the moments. But I I do distinctly remember
that even in my school, it was very nerdy.
OK, so if you bullied any of us, the bully ended up getting
blacklisted. No one would OK, it was a little
girls school as well, so you know, they could be quite catty.
So being labelled as a buddy was like the worst thing that ever
happened to you because you had to you ended up having to leave
the school because no one would talk to you because you got
blacklisted because you were mean to me in the locker room.
But for some reason LGBT being a lesbian.
OK, that was that was really that wasn't like no, that wasn't
a no, which is a real shame. Actually, there was one girl, I
hope she doesn't mind me sharing this.
She got identified as a lesbian and the brilliant got so bad she
had to leave the school. So I even I necessarily know
what it meant to be a lesbian. I think I kind of knew I didn't
necessarily want to be it, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does. Which is kind of funny actually,
considering it was an all girls school and every single year I
used to have this person who was like my best friend.
I used to open doors for her. I used to carry her bag.
I literally took care of her. Like what do you want for lunch?
I'll go get it for you. Like I chivalry, like I used to
take the and in a way that kind of was like, in a way like my
partner. I had someone that I was very,
very close to. So even they say it wasn't
necessarily sexual in my head, like in my head, but that was my
person. So even if you don't necessarily
understand or you don't have the words to describe who you are,
you still are inherently and organically going to become the
person that you're meant to be. It was only when I hit puberty
that I kind of realised that I fancied some of the girls in my
school where I was like, ah crap, I don't know if I can
swear on this. But yeah, the girls is like this
is probably not going to get out there considering where I am.
But yeah, I think when I got to like 1617, things got a little
bit more accepting. People were saying that they
were LGBT, but yeah, I, I think I didn't even do anything about
it at the age of 25. And I, I think I had this idea
that if I didn't do anything about it, that it would be fine.
They I could just pretend that I was straight.
Yeah. Anyone else think doesn't work
that way? It really doesn't.
It's just just accept it, embrace it.
Find your chosen circle, your chosen family.
They will help you get rid of all the crap in your head and
you can actually be your authentic self.
Yeah. I agree.
And you mentioned your authentic self for you and you said it was
a kind of you were 25 when you fully kind of embraced your
LGBTQ plus nature, your queerness.
When do you think you first felt authentically yourself?
And then when did you feel you could bring that authenticity to
everything? So I do think it's another
level, right? You can feel authentic, but then
when you just are to you, something you said earlier,
unapologetically yourself, it's kind of two different levels.
Them I would say I think as a trans guy, I'm still
transitioning. I may look, it can quite beat it
at this point, but my, as I was taking testosterone, my butt was
the first thing to grow. And I was just like, for
Christ's sake, like I asked for pecs and you gave me butt.
This is what I signed up for. So I ended up being more pear
shaped. And before I had top surgery, I
could, I basically made my breasts, my chest.
I made them into pecs. Yeah.
So I had pecs I didn't earn. And I was like, yeah, I'm a big
guy, La, La, la. Well, after I had top surgery, I
look more Oval shaped like a teardrop.
And I was just like, this is not what I ordered.
But slowly because it takes five years, you know, sometimes more.
So my torso has grown out a bit. My pecs have kicked in now, but
I've still got little chicken arms.
So, you know, even though there's a lot about me that
people. Oh, my God, you're looking like,
yes, thank you. But because it's a journey,
there's things about you that you're not necessarily going to
like. But I think authentically my
myself, if I could put a specific moment on it, I would
say is when people in public, like it's in ticket offices got
my pronouns correct. I think that was the moment
where I kind of felt as if I wasn't constantly being
triggered because the world saw me as I wanted to be.
And just for anyone. This thing is so familiar with
the trans community. Half of the trans community
don't actually take my replacement therapy.
That's just the reason why it's really important to respect
people's pronouns as and when they tell you.
But the journey to transition does take a while.
It's like you're basically like a teenager.
There's this really, really hilarious moment, and it's
something uncomfortable where a friend of mine, both of us would
at least stay transitioning. And we look like we're 16 year
old boys, basically because we haven't got any facial hair and
we've got baby faces. Yeah, and there was these group
of girls who were like 15 to like 18.
We're not shopping mall came up to us and talked to us.
We're like, girl, you can't walk off the strangers like that.
Didn't your parents teach you? Yeah, I was just like, look,
where's your parents? And you're just like, oh, you
know, parents let us just like who let you out?
I was just like don't take any drinks from anyone.
Don't get into anyones cars. Like stay together.
There's crazy people out there and everyone becomes bothered.
You can't find Uncle Rico. Like literally you need to take
care of yourselves. And they're like OK cool, thank
you for that. I just like what?
But no, because you're thrown back into puberty.
Yeah, because you look really, really young.
And I'm, I'm very, very glad now that I'm looking closer to my
age because I, when I looked around about 21, I would hit on
women who were like about 30 and they're just like, he was this
kid talking to me. I was like, no, no, no, no.
Give me a couple of years, please.
Oh, look appropriate. Like it's just.
Yeah, it does take time. So you kind of have to be
patient with yourself. But yeah, I'll say authenticity
is when people started recognising who I am.
Yeah, that was that was blessed. I think that's amazing.
And obviously today you are one of the most visible trans voices
in the UK right now. Award nominee you've you've
achieved so much for everything you've done.
What was it inside you that made you want to be a vocal,
invisible out advocate, and how did that journey into activism
begin for you? I think I fell into it, to be
honest. You.
So my story's a bit dark. People don't necessarily know
that. I I mean, I used to talk about
it fairly often, but now I'm not, not as much.
Yeah. So I used to work on an asset
management on trading floors. So I have a degree in economics.
So I went into trading onto trading floors.
And when I was there, I ended up getting bullied quite badly for
being queer. So I, I, I think I started going
to like gay bars. I probably realised I was
probably more non binary in my presentation.
But they saw that as me quote, UN quote, letting myself go
because like I was no longer like shaving, like I was wearing
more boys clothes. I was more likely to wear
trousers and have dresses and I'm just like, what is going on?
So I got bullied quite badly. I ended up post traumatic stress
disorder. So like like panic attacks
pretty much continuously. And it's not, it's not, it's not
useful for a career or anything. So I, I'm glad you were so bad
that I can actually read and write.
It was that intense. So I got into documentary
filmmaking because it was a skill set that I could use
whilst I was getting everything back.
And I was living in South London with my parents.
I love my parents are taking care of me for Jenny because
they must have been terrified, but I was.
I travelled from South London to north London for about two hours
to go to a queer camera training camp and that was Rainbow Films.
Shout out to Blaze. He runs that.
It's still going ahead and through learning how to use a
camera. I was part of the Pride and
protest documentary. I was a camera person on Pride
and protest documentary also. So I was using a boom.
It's like this photos of me super skinny with my boom stick.
And it was actually Blaze, he said.
Rico, you're really good at speaking because this is where
the self belief comes in. This is why it's so important to
find community because the community will see the potential
in you before you see it in yourself.
I think that's really, really important.
And Blaze said to me, you know a lot about history.
You knew very, very good at public speaking.
And it was Blaze that forced me to report live at the Black
Lives Matter protests. It was like, you know, all the
history, off you go. So I was there like, what do I
say? Just say what's behind you?
And I love Blaze for that moment because it was from that that a
anti racism radio show saw me and they asked me to be the host
for that. I it was from that that
transactional saw me. And then I ended up on the as a
director of the board for that. And then from that I ended up
working of LG consulting that I'm now on the border.
So it's people seeing the potential in you and then
basically going for it. But I would say I got into
activism because I didn't like the way that my community was
being treated, and I still don't.
I think there's a certain level of self belief that then leads
to self respect, which then leads to boundaries.
And I feel as if on a daily basis, our boundaries are being
crossed and we are not being, people are not respecting us.
I respect you, you respect me. It's very simple.
So I think it's that determination that kind of got
me into it. Yeah.
Yeah, that's an amazing story, and yeah, it's an incredible
journey to have gone on. And one of the things that comes
up, and you've kind of brought up there in your response, it
comes up a lot on this podcast, is this idea of
intersectionality, that we all have multiple facets of who we
are as people. How do you think your experience
as a Black trans man has shaped how you navigate the world
today? I would say being black in this
country is different because you have your own culture.
And I feel as if as a as a queer person, I didn't really, I
didn't really expect to find my partner in in the black
community because I expected to experience discrimination.
I expected to experience like not being accepted, not even
necessarily from the person itself.
Like I don't want to meet my partner's parents and them not
to understand me or to make me feel like I, I'm taking them
away la, la, la. Like, I like, I want my, my kids
to have their grandparents. Like I want, I want that, that
family to be there. And very interestingly, I
actually ended up accepting my black side more when I finally
found those black queer spaces. But being part of the diaspora
in the UK, you know, like someone will make references to
TV shows in in the white community he hadn't even seen.
Like they'll make a joke and they'll be like, I don't know
who the hell that is. Like, well, they look at you
like, how do you not know that? I was like, I don't know.
Do you know Vybz karts? How?
Like what? Like you don't really sit fully
and even say, I think when I go back to Jamaica, I'm British.
You know what I'm saying? So you are, I think someone
spread it to me as a Jamaican. You are perpetually nomadic.
We are almost like a nomadic community.
We never quite find our home, but being black and trans, I
would say as a community, because black people tend to
have bigger stature, Black trans women, they tend to have bigger
stature. It's harder for them to be quote
unquote possible. So therefore they experience
discrimination by medical professionals because some
medical professionals say that I'm not going to help you unless
I think you're not actually going to be possible, which is
diabolical. So there's that there's a
discrimination when you're out and about.
So black trans women is differently difficult.
Plus people don't think that you're intelligent just because
you're black. Me as a black man, I would say
possibility for being trans is actually easier because I've got
my dad's genes. My brother and my dad are very,
very bulky, muscular men. So I don't really need to go to
the gym. I just thought of landing like
this, which is OK. I know the bit that the Betty's
coming, but I know I need to get back to the gym.
But when it comes to just general muscle mass, you know,
I'm blessed in that sense. So black, black trans men, we
tend to be quite possible. But being a black man in the UK,
wow, I didn't expect it to be this bad.
It's, it's something, it's definitely something.
There was this point where I saw I was in the crowd and I saw
this guy selling drugs to some kids.
So I said to the security guard, do you know that guy over there
selling drugs? And it said to me, what am I
going to do about it? I was like, seriously, what are
you going to do about it? Wild.
Your job. But he was going to kick me out
because I reported it since you do rise to when you report
something that I'm going to have to do something about it.
And when you make accusations, you need to make sure that
they're true, such as a slice is wild.
That's. Crazy.
I'll go to supermarkets and the moment I walk in, there's
someone following me around. I've got to the point where I
say hello to them, but I can see you.
But you think I don't know you were there.
I know you were there. So yeah, I feel as if it
definitely is a different world. But being a man, male privilege
is 100 of the thing. But before walking around, I
used to wear heels and dresses like you would have to, people
would just stare at you just because you looked attractive.
I mean, you know, I wasn't bad looking.
So you know, you'll just you'll, you'd wear an outfit and people
would assume that you did that for the male gates.
Like, no, I did this for myself. I didn't do it.
So like random old dude would leer at me the entire bus
journey. Like, you know, it's, it's
inappropriate. It's incredibly inappropriate.
Like if I was going to go home, if it gets past 30 now, I'd take
care of like you'd always make sure you know how you're going
to get home as a as a as a man, I could take buses home.
Good morning. I'm completely safe.
You know, no one bothers me. I mean, there is the risk that
if there is an altercation, someone will punch me.
But the, the risk for women out on the ballot is potentially
rape and death. Let's be realistic about it.
So it is a different world. So I think as a trans person,
you, you do kind of see the cross section of society.
You kind of see how everything's put together.
Oh, also male privilege. No one questions me anymore.
When it comes in meetings, I will say statistics and I will
say them because I know that they're true people.
Oh, my God. Yeah.
It's amazing. That's it.
As a woman, where do you get that statistic?
Who told you that? Who have you been talking to?
Or you'll be talking and someone will cut or talk over you in the
meeting to talk about something else.
Or someone will repeat what you just said and the same was their
idea. I was like, are we in the same
meeting? Yeah, it's definitely a thing.
And it's incredibly frustrating. So whenever I I speak on panels,
I always give Koreans, I give voice to women in the room and
say, listen like people. It's true.
Male privilege does exist. And let people gas like you.
It does exist. So it's a funny old world.
Yeah, and a scary world, to be fair, like, given everything
you've just covered off. And it's getting scarier in so
many ways. Obviously, earlier this year we
had the UK Supreme Court ruling. And I think for many in the
trans community and in the wider LGBTQ personal community, it
just kind of felt like a gut punch.
We saw it coming, the way it transpired.
How did that land with you and what do you think it says about
where the UK is heading in terms of kind of trans rights in
general? How lamps, it's just been a
continuous onslaught. So I'm on the board of a
charity, infrastructure charity. So we have around about 500
members. So we know exactly what's
happening. Needs for charities, we try and
help them. So from that perspective, I hear
about it. Also, I'm an advisor at
Transport at Alliance that goes to Parliament, educate MPs.
A lot of these resources that are led to activism, some of
them are funded, most of them are on in addition to day jobs.
You know, the number of activists that I meet is a
fight. I used to have a nine to five,
but I ended up having to, had to, I ended up like losing my
job because this has to happen. So a lot of people in the trans
community, we're doing this because we, we refuse to let it
go. But the problem is, is that
there's a new announcement literally every month.
There's there's something happening every month and a lot
of us either get burnt out or feel as if we're putting our
lives and our careers on hold. So in addition to there being
like a five year way from this to just get the first
appointment, it is a trans person.
So a lot of us end up like funding our own transaction.
I found in my own transition maybe from public speaking and
doing videography. So that's kind of how I managed
to, to figure it out. But, you know, the hostel was
real and trigger warning, caution, warning, people aren't
making it. And you know, not that you think
of a certain specific demographic that's going to
potentially take their lives, but these are people that are
running organisations. You know, there was someone that
was like he, like they knew everyone in the scene.
They were always organising events like supporting people,
shouting people out. There was someone that was
running a, a trans house, you know, like voguing houses,
etcetera. Yeah.
Black trans women running a house, someone else, the first
trans person to go to Cambridge, I think black trans person to go
to Cambridge ran an online free university.
So I'm saying these are people that are incredibly talented,
incredibly impressive, and they just.
Yeah, so I feel as if people don't realise that after every
single announcement, we all check up on each other.
Are you OK? How you think?
Anything you need? But it is like a relentless
onslaught. So to get into the Supreme Court
ruling. So I'm probably not going to
name it because I don't think my insurance will stretch that far.
Actually, it's quite publicised. So JK Rowling, along with the
Supreme Court judge decided to I'd review the Equality Act to
say that trans women are not women.
Now people tend to think that that only impacts bottoms.
That's not the case. The Equality Act extends to
pretty much all walks of life, all organisations, all single
sex spaces. So me as a black trans guy
couldn't go to a all men's choir.
It means that I would have to be treated as a woman in all
spaces. So I yeah, bathrooms, yes, but
single sex changing rooms. I'm bearded.
I shouldn't be going to a woman's changing room.
It's ridiculous. That's why.
Because I really wish I missed the women's bathroom.
The men's bathroom smells terrible.
It's gross. There's like pee everywhere.
No one talks. No one's like, Oh my God, how
was your day? Can I have people to borrow my
lip gloss? Like, none of that happens in
the men's bathroom. It's very, very homophobic in
there. It's like look, keep your eyes
down, pee, don't look at my Dick, and walk.
Out. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. There's no how are you comadre
etcetera. Like the men's bathroom is wild
in my in my interesting. So yeah, they want to throw me
back into the women's. Yes, I'm having a great time.
So the precourt room is is incredibly damaging.
A lot of people are potentially going to flee the country
because of the discrimination. Yeah, I, I, I, I'm I'm at wit's
end with this current government.
I'm totally on this year. Keir Starmer not necessarily
knowing what a a genocide is, not necessarily knowing trans
women. As a women, we've always
existed. Explore Transhistory Week to
understand that in its depth. But another thing about the
Supreme Court ruling is they didn't actually consult a single
no, the EHRC off the back of it didn't consult a single trans
person. It's crazy.
Also, the Supreme Court room didn't consult a single trans
person as well. Now, if I were to create laws
about black people without black people in the room, that would
be called segregation. If I were to create laws about
religious groups without single religious groups, like you'd
call it out straight away. It would never happen, yeah.
Exactly. Because people necessarily know
about our community, They used to think, OK, because we're not
familiar with them, so therefore they don't necessarily
understand when segregation is actually happening.
But you know, there's been quite a few politicians that have said
that focusing on the trans debate is a very, very obvious
political tactic in order to create divisive vote and not
talk about things that are actually happening like Thames
Water putting sewage in our waterways.
The fact that there's cost living crisis, the fact that
there's a hyperinflation, the fact that the economy is in the
dust, the fact that we're getting taxation from Europe.
You know, these are things that we really, really need to be
talking about, but we're not because we're focusing on trans.
So I think people really need to wake up and realise that it's
not just trans people are going to be impacted.
If you look at the rollbacks in the USA, lot of this is some
evangelical Christians. Finally, it's coming through so
you can evangelical Christians who are a very, very well funded
group against people that are doing this in their free time as
well as trying to do their jobs, or trans people.
A lot of us don't have those dream jobs because we're still
transitioning. Who wants to go into a high
flying law firm and grow a beard?
It's difficult. We transition and then we start
our lives. So not having access to
hormones, we put our lives on hold and that has a massive
income impact on our income. And our, our, our ability to
fight back and, you know, be able to fund things and survive
the cost of living crisis. We're surviving everything else
in addition to this. So you've got evangelical
Christians against the trans community.
But yeah, I think, I think that this government, it's definitely
missed a trick. I feel like more than half of
the community of the population are pro trans community.
Someone did like a study recently and what you were
seeing is click bait articles. So what's happening is no one's
buying newspapers anymore. I haven't bought a newspaper in
years. So reporters are realising they
have to have these alarmist headlines and trans people have
amazing alarmist headlines. There's only been one court case
in this country of a trans person assaulting anyone in a
bathroom. One court case and that and then
only two of the entirety of the US.
So there's no, there's no credence, there's there's no
evidence behind this. It's pure discrimination.
And when you create laws which aren't based on facts, you just
create discrimination. So yeah, I think the Supreme
Court, EHSC ruling, the the head of the EHSC lost her job over
this. She's gone now.
So now we need to make sure that we vote, we get politicians to
vote on it. So trans Solidarity Lawrence is
doing some amazing work. They created the the largest
math lobby since Section 28. So give them a follow and you
know, get stuck in and also checking in your trans siblings
and your trans your trans family because they may be OK, but they
you know, everyone loves a good cover.
Yeah. And people, look, people think
this is just about bathrooms and changing rooms, which are
obviously important and critical that people are able to use the
correct bathroom. But it's actually about people's
lives, right? It's not just about, it's not
about trans women competing in sport.
It's about trans women being able to live their life.
Because to your point, so many people, when you back people
into a corner, they make decisions they can never come
back from. And that's horrific.
So we kind of, I talk about these kind of sports and
everything kind of in these gateway arguments.
But actually what you're talking about is people just wanting to
live their authentic lives. And I think it was so
interesting when that ruling happened.
There's this clip that was on social media.
I think you may have even been who shared it that I saw it of
an MP, I'm pretty sure Tory MP on TV and they were asked about
trans men you having to now use women's bathrooms and he kind of
genuinely seemed to have not figured out that trans men
exist. Like he literally thought this
was just about trans women. This wouldn't have any other
impact. How dangerous is it for people
in power, either politically, I guess in the media or just
having a voice, to be seemingly, and maybe you'll tell me this
isn't correct, but seemingly solely focused on trans women
and kind of not paying attention to the rest of the community.
Is that how it feels? Is that fair?
No, no, there is. I'm sort of the case.
I think there is a little bit of sexism in the sense that trans
men are not seen as men. So therefore, I mean, we are
kind of cute and cuddly, to be fair.
But you know, it's the overall fear.
So I, I think with the trans women debate, I think that we
need to just, we need to give women credence the fact that
there is a rape culture. It is perpetuated.
People are reported. And when they are reported, they
hold up their underwear and said, oh, look, she was asking
for it because she had like fluffy underwear having to
happen in the US, like not fluffy, like Lacy underwear.
It's ridiculous. You know, it, it, it needs to be
discussed, but men do not have to wear a dress in order to
assault women because trans women are treated worse than
Memphis in this country. So, you know, I mean, was it
Russell Brand assaulted the woman in the bathroom recently?
He wasn't dressed up as a woman. So it's an entirely different
discussion. And I I, I think we know we
really we have to give women who are being such resulted the
space to talk about it and they have to be protected.
I completely agree with that. But trans women and it's not
that they're probably more scared of you.
They're probably scared you're going to realise who they are
and then kick them out the box. But I think that in the anti
trans debate, they I think it was on LBC.
They'll say something like, oh, if they if, if a man just sort
of puts on a dress, you can just go into the bathroom.
No, no, that's not the case at all.
It's, it's, it's not, it's not, we're not drag Queens.
They're trans women. And if we really, really want to
get to the point where they look at people's identification
documents, trans women, most of them will have M on their
passports. So there is a way to know
whether you have some sexual predator in the bathroom who's
just having a jolly and a trans woman because we have the
documentation. Most of them have the
documentation, not all of them. So, you know, I wouldn't want it
to be, you know, the new law. But it's possible.
As a trans man, I assigned female at birth.
If I go into the women's bathroom, as the Supreme Court
ruling would suggest, there's no way of distinguishing between me
and a sis because we both have men on the passports.
So unless I drop my drawers and for some trans guys, even that
was not going to help you, you're not going to know.
So that for me is very dangerous because it literally opens the
doors to bearded men. Anyone can walk in.
And another side of that is if you have like, Butch lesbians,
you don't look feminine enough. It policies what women should be
and what women shouldn't, shouldn't be.
So yeah, a lot of lesbians have been, have been impacted by this
ruling, but I mean, it's not law now, so no one should be
implementing it. You can challenge it.
I would reach out to non binary barrister.
Sorry, I don't remember his name.
Non binary barrister on Instagram.
He's doing amazing work and can pick up your case.
Also trans legal clinic run by Olivia.
So there, there is help, but no, it, it is ridiculous.
It's very divisive. I think because of the UK, we've
left Europe, yeah. So we're not part of that
trading embargo. We need to have allies, and I
think the US is probably the closest one.
And Trump's number one thing on the agenda is transphobia.
Yeah, literally got into his inauguration speech like that's
it's crazy that you know that is.
And when you remember, remind yourselves that we are talking
about such a small percentage of the population that are just
trying to live their lives. And actually these rulings to
your point, it will be sis men. They're actually perpetrating
these crimes and, and, and doing these things.
So we're punishing the trans community for things that CIS
men are going to do. And it just seems so backwards
and it just seems so scary and disheartening.
But I do want to try and get back to how this conversation
started, which was with hope and with joy.
Despite all that noise and all that kind of difficulty, as you
say, almost on a daily, weekly basis, there's a new headline.
Are there moments or people that remind you that this fight is
worth it and there is still joy and hope out there?
Yes, there's one thing that I forgot from the previous
section, so I'll just quickly say it different.
Just to continue my Rad Kelly was on and she basically said,
Oh yeah, I got a an e-mail about a woman that was assaulted by a
CIS man in the toilet. So therefore something needs to
be done. She said CIS, she said CIS
woman. So she's basically getting
emails from women who are getting sexually assaulted and
she's thinking that says CIS, so let's attack some trans people.
It's just wild. It doesn't make any sense.
So there's no credence to it. But anyway, that to your
question about Joy, yes, yes, and hell yes.
Again, I would say there's camaraderie.
There's sober spaces like misery.
There's you can go on a mushroom walk.
You know, there's not a phase shout out, massive shout out to
not a phase free work, working out spaces for trans people.
I think there's Manchester, Birmingham, also seen also in
London. So you know, there's a lot of
safe spaces out there. We're we're really creating
them. There's also spaces like cafes,
like Gay is the word. You know you can get new
literature if that's really your space also.
Oh I can't remember them now. The bookshop in Shoreditch.
Oh yeah, I'm not sure. There's a book, there's a
bookshop, there's a queer bookshop there in Shoreditch.
High Street Station. Go there as well.
Yeah. They also have a lot of spaces
like like voguing and yeah. So, you know, there, there is
spaces there, but people tend to think that in trans spaces.
And we tend to talk about being trans.
We don't we we talk about our our newest hustle business
opportunity in order to, you know, make bank and keep going.
And we talk about what we know. Like a friend of mine was
sending me videos about his new Victorian toilet that he's
installed in his house. I was like, Oh my God, this is
amazing. It's a flush system.
I've got another friend we got. We love dinosaurs.
We would go to dinosaur events together.
You know, there, there there's joy in the community and
there's, there's potential, but then in the present moment
there's a lot of happiness. Yeah.
And to your point, they just, you know, everyone just wants to
live their life. Like actually we, we would much
rather not have to talk about this all the time, every day,
every kind of put so much effort into this.
People just want to live their lives and they want to live
their lives happily and in a fulfilling way.
That's true. I, I feel as if a lot of our
community, we have picked the the to be honest and authentic
over a nine to five court cardboard box roll.
And if we do go to blind 5 cobbler form, we're very, very
careful which ones that we pick. And because of that, all of us
are very, we're natural hustlers, we're natural
entrepreneurs. And even if we don't start that
way, I have massive social anxiety.
I've done speeches on stage, like I have really bad social
anxiety. Because when you're part of the
community and you're doing it for the 'cause it's almost as if
what you're doing transcends what you're currently going
through. And what I contribute as a
public speaker, that's my skill set.
That's how I contribute to my trans community.
Whereas other people can write policy documents, I can write
policy documents to save my life.
I also find it really boring. So everyone has different spaces
or different skill sets that they can offer to the community.
And I was talking to someone and they're just like, oh, you know,
I I am actually this person runs a whole pride and hello Kimmy is
like, oh, I just feel like I'm not doing enough.
I'm like, like, girl, you want a prize?
Like you're doing a lot. It's like, yeah, but I could be
doing more. I was just like, no, no, there's
a lot of people. And if you need to take this,
this the self-care to take a step back, please do that
because we're like we're we're like a symbiotic Organism.
If you take a step back, other people will step forward.
So when I see those up and coming young activists that like
Ella Morgan killing him, perhaps you'll be killing it.
About 2-3 years ago, I didn't so know who she wasn't, but now
she's on the front line and I love that for her because I'm
tired. So when people take a step
forward, like absolutely brilliant, you know?
So yeah, we, we've got this as a community when it comes to
activism. We've got this also for our safe
spaces and we've got this for joy also.
I'll shout out the LG Consortium, they're an
infrastructure charity that I'm on the board of.
If you do have an amazing, ideal project, please come to us.
When it comes to setting up the actual organisation itself, like
writing grant applications. We've also got grant funding
within the organisation that we do distribute.
There's an independent panel, so I can't help you with that, but
100% recharge LG Consortium organisations.
Like Not a Phase. Oh, can't think of the other
ones now. Trans Solidarity Alliance, these
organisations that I introduced to LG Consortium at their
infancy, before they even were a thing.
Oh, also Transhistory Week and look at them now.
So don't think the people that are doing amazing things out
there that you can't be that person 100%.
All it takes is some support and a camaraderie from your
community and you'll be out there.
You'll be out there living what you want to do, how you want to
compute. So yeah.
I think it's amazing and I'm going to include as many links
as possible in the description of this podcast that people can
check out all these incredible organisations because they are
amazing. And obviously we started this
conversation talking about a young Rico, so let's revisit
him. What advice would you give to
your younger self if you could? And would it be different if I
said, what advice would you give to an LGBTQ plus person today?
I think it would be similar. I think I would say don't be so
scared. I think that's it.
I think there's a lot of things that I didn't know the answer to
and that kind of scared me. Like questions like what do you
want to do for the rest of your life?
Like, I don't know, I can barely pick breakfast, you know what I
mean? I don't know.
I don't know who I am. So how I meant to know what I
want to do for the rest of my life and also like things that
bother teenagers, like if oh, if I set a boundary with that
friend, will I lose them? And I know there's already
conscious. I said earlier, like sometimes I
was good at it, but sometimes it will take time.
It took me a lot of time to be like, no, this is not what I
want. Or I don't like the way that you
speak to me. So even though I got there, I
get there a lot quicker now. Like at the end of the
conversation, it's like I'll never speak to you again.
In my head, I'm like, I don't think it again, like I'm done.
Because I now know that if I close one door, I will open five
or six others. And I love going out and meeting
people. Sometimes I meet people and they
say, Oh my God, you're horrible. But I'm like, Oh my God, you're
amazing. And I get so excited when I meet
you people because they tell me their part, what they've been up
to. And I get, I get so happy.
And I'm like, wow, that's incredible.
And I'd be like, oh, but have you spoken to this person?
Have you spoken to that person? You need to speak to this
person. I, your friends are the people
that mention your name in the room full of opportunities.
And when you surround yourself with people like that, it just
changes the game. And you just you, you flourish.
And the moments where you lose sight of who you are as an
individual, other people will remind you.
They'll hold up the mirror and say, remember, you did this.
And I'd be like, oh, yeah, I didn't do that.
That was you. You need people like that in
your life. So yeah, I'll say fine.
The community advice to LGBT youth, I would say don't listen
to the media, don't listen to what politicians are saying
because you know when you're in a kid, you're a kid at school
and people tell you don't say things unless it's true or
whether it's kind. Adults have forgotten that.
Being an adult when you realise that it's still a big playground
and people have less integrity as adults that when they did it
has kids. So listen to your parents.
If they are being supportive for you that they're telling you
that you know that the community is there.
Find mermaids, find those queer spaces and listen to those day
spaces. Don't listen to the masses.
That's all the adults are here for.
The adults are here to fight for the masses.
You stay, you enjoy your childhood and there is a huge
price to being an activist on the front line.
So I know if I post something I'm going to get, I hate people
comments, the end of my post, That's what's going to happen.
But that's an adult situation. As a child, you need to focus on
your education. You need to focus on making
friends. You need to focus on when you do
the rest of your life. And then that's absolutely
terrifying. That's what kids need to be
focusing on. Leave the politics of the
adults. Enjoy your childhoods because
you only get it once. Couldn't agree, Couldn't agree
more. And there was this theme that's
come out throughout this conversation I felt, which is
this real sense of the importance of building other
people up, celebrating other people's successes rather than
trying to turn them down, and just the real sense of
community. And that's kind of what I wanted
this podcast to be about, is trying to spotlight incredible
queer people doing amazing things that people can see,
people like themselves living happy, fruitful lives.
So who in your network would you want to hear on this podcast?
And what one question would you want me to ask them?
Oh, see that? That's a difficult question.
And the reason being is that there's so many people that I
love listening to. Yeah, I would say I'll probably
shout out my mate, actually John Paul, Managing Director at WE
Createspace. He's doing a lot of like
corporate engagement that I've seen.
WE Createspace from the start, it was run by someone called
Michael and someone else called Malus, but John Paul was really
like creating safe spaces where people can have meditation.
Also queer joy incorporations, which is kind of what's on the
hurdle. A couple years ago, I would say
I would want you to ask him like what's next?
Because you've created this amazing space.
So how, how would you take it to the next stage?
Like what, what, what's the, what's the dream?
I think that's the dream. Because I think in organisations
you always see what they're currently doing.
But a, a good, a good CEO, someone who's at the helm always
has a vision. And I kind of want to see what
their vision is because I'm, I'm, I'm mind bogglingly
impressed by what they've done so far.
Yeah. I love that.
Yeah, we will reach out to him, try and get him on the podcast.
They sound amazing. And I will definitely ask them
what is the dream, what's the vision?
And we will get them on Rigo, thank you so much for being on
Queer Talker with me today. As I said at the start, you were
one of the first people on the list of people I wanted on this
podcast because I'm just so inspired by the work you do and
all the incredible activism and just support you give to the
entire community. So thank you so much for
everything you do and thank you so much for being on Quit Talker
with me today. Thank you.
I feel as if I did what I needed to do, when it needed to get
done. But when as I say, thank you for
reminding me because sometimes there's days where even I
forget. So thank you.
And I always say sometimes feel as if I am not doing enough.
Someone's saying that. I really appreciate that.
But thank you for having me. I love fun.
I forgot. I want to look.
Vodka. This is great.
Yeah. Honestly, you're an absolute
legend. Keep doing what you're doing.
And thank you for giving space for authentic voices because,
yeah, this has been a lot of fun.
Appreciate