1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,560 As much as I could put on a brave face and stand in front of 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:13,000 the cameras and be Mr Upbeat, there was a part of me that died 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,320 inside when I got the diagnosis at age 27. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,920 If somebody had have said to me 10 years ago, there's all these 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,480 studies and so far that the evidence is certainly pointing 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,400 towards that if you're undetectable, you can't transmit 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,280 the virus, that would have made a huge difference. 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,600 It it would have given me hope because for that 10 years that I 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,320 didn't know about that I believed that I was dangerous, I 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,560 was toxic. There's a few television shows 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,000 here in the States that have done it that have had HIV 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,400 positive characters, but it always still felt like the HIV 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,120 was kind of the character. And then there was the person. 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,120 And I, I really wanted to show it the other way. 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,280 There's the person who just happens to be living with HIV 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,080 without hope, without being hopeful. 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,400 What do we have? Hello and welcome back to the 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,000 Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories. 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,960 This is Queer Talker. I'm Ben Cicchetti, and this week 20 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:18,520 I am joined by Emmy and GLAAD award-winning creator, HIV 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,000 activist and host of Plus Life Media, Carl Schmidt. 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,440 Carl, welcome to Queer Talker. Thank you for having me and how 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,560 modest of me to have my GLAAD Media award right over my 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:30,920 shoulder. How embarrassing. 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,720 But I'm, I'm thrilled and I'm honoured. 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,480 I've had a look at you've, you, you, you've had some fantastic 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,800 guests. So I'm, I'm thrilled to to be 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,000 amongst them. Thanks for having me. 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,120 I'm super excited to get to know you better, to hear more about 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,960 your work, but we'll start the way we always do, which is our 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,720 queer panic rap. Of our questions, you just 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,600 respond with the first thing that comes to mind, starting 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,400 with what was the first album you ever owned? 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,600 I'm going to age myself. Wham. 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,320 Wake me up before you go. Go. 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,680 That's a phenomenal first album to owned. 37 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,120 And it's very queer, let's be honest. 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,520 And Speaking of music, if you had to lip sync for your life, 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:22,280 what song would you be choosing? Janet Jackson's together again, 40 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,080 because I think I know most of the words and that was the song 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,440 that was kind of a big hit in the clubs when I first started, 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,640 like going to bars and stuff. I love that I've got such a 43 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:34,800 nostalgia for that song. It's a fantastic song I saw. 44 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,280 Her. It's a good song, isn't it? 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:37,280 She's amazing. Yeah. 46 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,280 Yeah. Great choice. 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,960 We all know obviously you live in the world of media so I'm 48 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,840 super curious what is your favourite queer movie or TV 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,000 show? Oh, that's hard because I've got 50 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,520 a few. The most recent favourite 1 is A 51 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,920 Friend of Dorothy and I know you you had the director on recently 52 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,040 short film with Miriam Margolis. But I also two films that have 53 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,040 stuck with me and I can always go back and watch A Beautiful 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,200 Thing, which is a British film and Sordid Lives. 55 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,240 Amazing. I haven't seen Sorted Life so 56 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:14,280 I'm going to have to check that out now. 57 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:14,840 I love a. Good. 58 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,160 Oh, it's very good. It's got Leslie Jordan in it. 59 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,040 It's it's a, it's a classic and Olivia Newton John. 60 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,880 Amazing. OK, well I've got homework, 61 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:27,520 which is great to have. Who is your ultimate queer icon? 62 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,560 That's easy, Dolly Parton. Love that, love that. 63 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,560 Who is one person you would like to hear on this podcast? 64 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,440 Dolly Parton or Miriam Margolis. She's always a good. 65 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,760 Chat yeah, she's phenomenal. I saw her on stage last year, 66 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,320 she came to do her book tour. She's hilarious and just such a 67 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,920 thought provoking person. So I think that'd be amazing. 68 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,840 And then what is one word you would use to describe your 69 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,760 childhood? International. 70 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,720 International. Interesting. 71 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,600 OK, well we can explore that a bit more because as long term 72 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,480 listeners know, I have this theory that you understand an 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,840 LGBTQ plus person as an adult or any person really is an adult. 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,920 You have to understand them as a young person. 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,160 So you say international. What should I know about you as 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,360 a young person to understand the car that sits in front of me 77 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,760 today? Oh, that, that's a great 78 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:29,960 question. I from the age of, well, I, I, I 79 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,600 was very lucky and fortunate in that my family travelled quite a 80 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,000 bit and starting from a young age for me, and I have an older, 81 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,640 I have two older brothers. One of them is an actor and he 82 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,880 was on a very successful Australian soap opera called 83 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,640 Neighbours. And so at the height of that 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,320 show, we used to get to come to travel to the UK because he 85 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,040 would do pantomime. So which I started like at age 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,760 9, doing these long trips from, I was born in Australia, 87 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,360 travelling to the UK. And then when I was 10, my 88 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 family, we moved to Fiji. And then when I was 14, we moved 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,200 to New Zealand. And when I was 18, I moved to 90 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,720 London. So it was always on the go. 91 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,360 But I also, I'm first generation Australian. 92 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,520 So I have a Hungarian mother and an Austrian father. 93 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,760 So grew up in just very, you know, lots of different 94 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,280 cultures. And then when I lived in Fiji as 95 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:27,600 a young boy, I went to an International School. 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,080 So I think that's why I say international because I've been 97 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,560 very, very, very lucky, fortunate to have been exposed 98 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:41,640 to so many different cultures and ideas and the way people 99 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:48,000 live and pray and socialise, which I'm so grateful for 100 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,400 because I think it's given me quite a broad open mind as an 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,600 adult and as a journalist and as someone who asks questions for a 102 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,360 living. So yeah, I don't does that sort 103 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,000 of answer it like it's that's why I said international. 104 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,760 Yeah, I think that's so interesting though to to your 105 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,160 point to what that must have taught you, there's two parts of 106 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,040 that that really stick out to me. 107 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,240 Obviously, being a Brit, Neighbours is a household, 108 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,440 everyone watched it. Everyone watched it growing up. 109 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,640 So I'm curious as to what that life was like having a brother 110 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,720 in that sort of role in Australia, in the UK, where it's 111 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,880 such a huge thing. But then also to your point, 112 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,720 that experience of all those different cultures and like how 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,120 much of that you still carry with you today. 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,760 Oh, I mean, I still carry all of that with me today. 115 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,720 I can't sit still long enough. I was. 116 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,520 I was, I was in New York on Thursday night. 117 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,240 The week before that I was in Las Vegas. 118 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,680 The week before that I was in Dallas. 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,920 The week before that I was in Thailand. 120 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,480 I'm going back to New York tomorrow and the rest of the 121 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,400 year I've got Brazil, Fiji, Greece, Australia, Japan, all 122 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,280 before October. So I'm that guy that everyone's 123 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:00,640 like, you're never home. Yeah, yeah, I'm still 124 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,360 international. You're a poor dog who looks 125 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:03,840 after your dog. And I do that. 126 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,560 That's the one thing I feel guilty about. 127 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,920 But to the to the first part of that question, you know, it was 128 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,960 I was 7 when my brother got on that television show. 129 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,160 And as I said, it was it was at the height of the the Neighbours 130 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,040 praise. Kylie was still in the show. 131 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,680 Jason Donovan was still in the show. 132 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,960 And it was, it was wonderful because if you know, suddenly we 133 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,640 were riding around in stretch limousines and being flown first 134 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,160 class all over the world and stuff. 135 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,680 And as a 78910 year old, that's like, it's amazing. 136 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,720 And you know, I got to go to work with my brother every now 137 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,480 and then. And, and I think that's what, 138 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,040 you know, I think a lot of younger siblings idolise or want 139 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,600 to be like their big siblings. And there's a big age gap 140 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,720 between my brothers and I. So my oldest brother is 8 years 141 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,200 older than me, Christian, six years older than me. 142 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,120 So you know, as a little boy, I, I, you just kind of want to hang 143 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,520 out and, and be accepted by your Big Brothers. 144 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,840 And so when I got to go to to the set of neighbours and, and 145 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,520 see this amazing world of it just, it was all make believe. 146 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,520 All that stuff I saw on television, all these houses 147 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,160 that everyone lived in. And suddenly I was in this giant 148 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:19,680 warehouse and it was, it was the coolest kind of, you know, I was 149 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,000 just left to go roam free. I could go wherever I wanted in 150 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,840 the studio. They'd be shooting down one end 151 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,720 of the stage and I'd be up in Paul Robinson's house messing 152 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,720 around. And I think that's where, and 153 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,440 because, you know, you sort of idolise your Big Brother, that's 154 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,960 where I got the bug to want to be in this world. 155 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,760 And I started out before I was sort of hosting and a 156 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,039 journalist. I started out as a kid actor 157 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:47,080 and, and did that for quite a few years because I followed in 158 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,160 my big brother's footsteps. So it was really cool. 159 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,760 And you'd come to England. We'd come to England every sort 160 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,360 of just before December, the start of panto season. 161 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,960 And it was madness. I mean, it was like Rockstar 162 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:04,040 madness. So yeah, it it was cool. 163 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:09,520 But what it also taught me was that when he got older and sort 164 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,440 of left the show and he moved to the UK and we moved to Fiji, my 165 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:19,480 parents and I and all that went away at a sort of 10 and 11 166 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:25,520 years of age to sort of have experienced that celebrity world 167 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,640 and then go and then see, oh, it can also go away very quickly 168 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,160 and you have to go back to normal life and adjust. 169 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,520 It wasn't a hard adjustment at the time. 170 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,560 And I think it, I think it set me up for what a life in this 171 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:42,440 industry. And I live in Los Angeles now 172 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,720 and realising that when you know when, when the, when you're at 173 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,640 the peak of the wave and the ride is high, it's fantastic. 174 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,480 But every wave crests and crashes and you have to be able 175 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,080 to ride that that downswing as well. 176 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,160 And hopefully, you know, stay buoyant enough for the next wave 177 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:02,960 when it comes up. And I think that's kind of how 178 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:08,360 my career has gone from starting out as a, when we moved to New 179 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,760 Zealand and I, I started working on television there as a 14 year 180 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,280 old and then 1516 working on as a host on a Saturday morning 181 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,360 kids TV show. And then that all going away 182 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,480 when I was 18. And then it's slowly coming back 183 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,600 when I was in my early 20s. And, and it's, it has, it's come 184 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,840 up and down and you have to learn how to ride the wave. 185 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,080 So I think all of that was sort of a good foundation for me to 186 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,520 understand a little bit more about how this industry works 187 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,680 and not not get so caught up in it. 188 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:41,840 Because it is very easy to get caught up in all that fun stuff. 189 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,960 But understand that that doesn't always last. 190 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,720 And what you've got to, you've got to, you know, ride the wave, 191 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,000 so to speak. Yeah, I think that must have 192 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,920 given you quite a lot. I used a similar analogy 193 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,120 recently to talk about kind of LGBTQ plus rights and how it 194 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,400 kind of comes in waves. And often it's that pull back of 195 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,920 the wave, you have to kind of then fight harder so the wave 196 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,440 goes further next time. And obviously we'll get into 197 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,520 kind of the current state of the LGBTQ plus community. 198 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,760 But I'm also curious in that environment, in that kind of 199 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,240 celebrity entertainment media environment for you, do you 200 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,240 remember the first LGBTQ plus person you just kind of became 201 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,600 aware of either in real life and your interactions in that world 202 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,560 or just seeing them through media? 203 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,680 Yeah, I remember. Well, you know, I remember my 204 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,200 mother's hairdresser back in the early 80s, Darren Grayson, who's 205 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,120 still alive and still cutting hair. 206 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:40,000 I found out. And it was the, you know, is it 207 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,480 was more the flamboyant gay that that I first became aware of. 208 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,440 So, you know, he was Darren Grayson's hair salon was the 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,480 best hair salon in the town we lived in. 210 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,800 And it was, you know, it was stunning and but he was very 211 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,120 over the top. And it was all this. 212 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,920 And then I also remember a wonderful man, a man named 213 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,960 William who was a makeup artist on Neighbours. 214 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:11,160 And you know this again, very flamboyant, but very caring and 215 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,080 attentive person who used to call me pet whenever I'd go 216 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:16,640 into. And I think he still worked on 217 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,280 the show, like right up until close to the end. 218 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,600 Those were the 2. But it but it was a it was a 219 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,760 sort of a flamboyancy of of queer that I remember. 220 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:32,560 And now as I now as I'm an older man and I think back on people 221 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:35,400 who were in my life when I was little. 222 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,280 I mean, there was there was a teacher at kindergarten who now 223 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,120 when I think back on it, I go, Oh yeah, that makes sense. 224 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,080 He was totally a gay man. But but obviously I didn't have 225 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,120 the words for it back then. But my first sort of realisation 226 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,600 of gay and remember this is sort of growing up in Australia in 227 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:00,160 the in the 80s, early 80s. It was the flamboyancy of it all 228 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,800 of sort of queer and gay that that you recognise more so than, 229 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,480 you know, other attributes that that you know, we we can 230 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,920 identify today. Yeah. 231 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,440 And then I'm curious about your own journey then your kind of 232 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,840 own journey of self discovery against that kind of backdrop, 233 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,080 because we all saw those kind of those representations that were 234 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,320 kind of more common in the 80s and the 90s and, and we see a 235 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,960 much wider representation of the queer community now. 236 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,080 So that journey for you. But then also I often think 237 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,120 about, I'm drawn to people who are very authentic. 238 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,320 And so I'm always curious to understand when people started 239 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,240 to feel that authenticity inside themselves. 240 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,880 And then when for you did you feel you could just bring that 241 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,400 authenticity to everything that you do? 242 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,320 Well, it's interesting. And you know, I'm, I don't mean 243 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,520 to be a downer now, but I'm a survivor of someone who was 244 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,280 sexually abused as a very young child. 245 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,640 I was three years old when my oldest brother's best friend, 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,320 who was I think 13 at the time, you know, sexually assaulted and 247 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,640 abused me. And you have to realise that at 248 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,040 three years of age when your big brother's best friend says hey, 249 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,760 let's play this game and it's going to be our secret game, you 250 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,000 go, OK, you don't realise it's bad. 251 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,680 And although it's a bit weird and uncomfortable with what was 252 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,800 going on, you still believe because the 13 year old boy 253 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,600 who's your big brother's best friend says this is our special 254 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,000 game, that there's nothing wrong with it. 255 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,160 And it's not until you get to sort of primary school as or 256 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,680 elementary school as as I did when at age 6 or 7 and we 257 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,280 started learning about stranger danger and stuff. 258 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,920 And you know, if the man touches you here and said, a boy does 259 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,440 this to you, that's bad. And again, remember, it's 1987. 260 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,840 So it's really bad and it's wrong. 261 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,640 And it's all this. And as a, as a young kid, I've 262 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,960 gone, well, hang on. But we played this game and it 263 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:04,040 was kind of fun. And now am IA bad now because I 264 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,280 did that I'm I've I'm a bad person. 265 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,440 There's because I, you know, there were certain elements of 266 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,320 it that I didn't very much did not enjoy, but there were other 267 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,960 elements that I thought, OK, this is it's sort of so was I 268 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,880 now a bad person and all the media at that time? 269 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,880 And then it was of course the onslaught of aids in Australia 270 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,080 and the campaigns that went with that. 271 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,080 I, I realised I had this attraction to boys. 272 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,520 I don't know whether that attraction came from because of 273 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,560 what happened to me as a three-year old, but it was 274 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,880 there. Now everything I hear that means 275 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,520 it's bad. So shut up about it. 276 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,200 And I sort of kept that quiet to myself. 277 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,280 I mean, I didn't come out to my family until I was 18. 278 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,520 I, I think in my social circles, it was probably more like 15-16 279 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,120 people who I felt safe with and in groups that I hung out with. 280 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,000 And it was never, I'm gay. It was just, I didn't hide it. 281 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,600 And I also, when I did come out to my family, you know, I never 282 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,920 lied about my sexuality. My mother, my mother's very 283 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,840 direct. And she would ask me and she 284 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,960 would also ask my brother because the whole family thought 285 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,680 Christian was gay because the showbiz world. 286 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,560 And you know, and she would outrage, she'd go, are you gay? 287 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,440 And and she would ask, you know, I was 1314 years old and I was 288 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,000 certainly having experiences with other boys my own age at 289 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,880 that point and experimenting. Then she would ask me out she 290 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,480 go, are you gay? And it used to drive by insane 291 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680 because I would say that's none of your business. 292 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,800 I wouldn't, I never lied about it. 293 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,280 And she would say, what do you mean? 294 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:47,760 It's none of my business? I go, it's none of your 295 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,320 business. I don't ask what you and dad got 296 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,840 up to in the like, it's none of your business. 297 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,720 And it, you know, I mean, obviously my family had very 298 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,000 strong suspicions, rightfully so. 299 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,720 But so I sort of, I knew, I knew from a very early age. 300 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,800 And for a long time I was frightened because it was wrong 301 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,079 and bad. And then, you know, AIDS and I 302 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,920 remember when I came out to my mother, it was very dramatic. 303 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,079 My mother took it worse. And my father was like, great. 304 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,160 My, my grandmother at the time was like, yes, or what? 305 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,280 And when my mom finally came around to it and, and, and it 306 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,280 wasn't, it wasn't that she was, she was upset and, and I think a 307 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,400 lot of mothers feel this. She thought she'd let me down. 308 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,320 She thought she'd failed me as a mother, and that's what upset 309 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,800 her the most. She was, you know, when we 310 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,680 finally got to talking about it, she said, you know, I just I 311 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,280 should have, I should have provided you a home where you 312 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,240 felt safe that you could talk about this. 313 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,920 And I said, what teenager wants to talk about any part of their 314 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,240 sexuality or sex life, be them straight, gay, bisexual, non 315 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,440 binary. I don't know many teenagers back 316 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,760 then at least that want to have that conversation with their 317 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,680 parents or their siblings. It's just, you know, it's like I 318 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,640 said, I don't want to know what you and dad get up to. 319 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,960 But she felt she'd failed me. And then she said, she said, 320 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,400 well, I can accept this. It's you know, you know, of 321 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,000 course we love you. And I'm, I'm very, very lucky. 322 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,240 I've my family, my brothers, everyone in my orbit has always 323 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,080 been I I received very well. But she did say, I remember she 324 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:33,160 said to me just don't get AIDS. Whoops, 27 years of old age. 325 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,320 I was diagnosed HIV positive, but that's that's further 326 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,040 dermaline. But yeah, I sort of always, you 327 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,480 know, I knew from an early age and it was in there, but I never 328 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,560 like I said, I never lied about it. 329 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,160 I just chose to think, well, that's my business, it's nobody 330 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,800 else's business until I was ready and felt comfortable to 331 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,560 have those conversations. That's sort of what I'd say to 332 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,120 anybody really, is it's your business. 333 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:01,800 Whether it's your sexuality, whether it's your HIV status, 334 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,360 it's your business. And you know, it's no one's 335 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:11,640 right to tell you when you should be accepting of it or 336 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,840 accepting of others accepting it. 337 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,880 You know that has to happen on your terms. 338 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,520 Yeah. And you mentioned obviously then 339 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,920 2018 you publicly shared that you are HIV positive after 340 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,320 keeping it, you know, private for I think you said almost a 341 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,800 decade. Can you take me back to that 342 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,800 moment and kind of what gave you the the feeling of the ability 343 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,920 or made you feel ready or made you feel comfortable to say it 344 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,240 out loud having kind of spent all that time in the media 345 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,520 industry as well? Yeah, well, it was two vodka 346 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,760 martinis in a Xanax that gave me the confidence and the safety to 347 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,000 say it out loud. Look, it wasn't thought. 348 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,840 I didn't think about it. It wasn't a planned coming out, 349 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,400 as you said, You know, I, I, I was not again, I never lied 350 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,760 about it. I was not secretive about it. 351 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,280 My sexual partners knew about it. 352 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,600 My friend group knew about it. My family knew about it. 353 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,120 I didn't talk about it professionally because I didn't 354 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:16,080 see how my HIV status. Affected what I did on 355 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,640 television or in in the media, you know it. 356 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,800 It had nothing to do with how I interviewed people or how I 357 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,960 turned up on camera and did my work. 358 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,880 So I just didn't think it was something that needed to be 359 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,640 talked about. And, you know, very well meaning 360 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,200 people in my orbit who did know said, look, you don't want to be 361 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,880 known as the guy with AIDS on television, which is a stupid 362 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,480 statement because it's HIV. I'm not, you know, AIDS this day 363 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,920 and age. But you don't want to, you know, 364 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,880 you don't want to be known as the HIV guy because they'll 365 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,880 pigeonhole you and put you in a box. 366 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:54,440 And I thought, yeah, because like I said, it's got nothing to 367 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,760 do with how I do my job, how I talk to people, how I treat 368 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,880 people. So I just, you know, I didn't, 369 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,000 it was, it was, it was a non starter. 370 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,440 But there is this wonderful organisation from a guy out of 371 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,520 Scotland who who created this fantastic Instagram account 372 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,840 called the AIDS Memorial. And I don't know if you know it, 373 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,200 Bill, or your listeners and viewers know, but it's an 374 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,920 Instagram account where people can post pictures of people 375 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280 we've lost to AIDS related illnesses over the years. 376 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,640 And it's a, and actually Madonna used it in her last tour. 377 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,040 She had a whole thing with pictures and it's, it's a 378 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,760 phenomenal Instagram account and it's hashtag is what is 379 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,520 remembered lives. And I was aware of this account 380 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,280 and it's, they sell, they sell merchandise And so that helps 381 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,120 raise money to, to help with housing and stuff for low income 382 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,600 people living with HIV. So I bought this T-shirts at the 383 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,120 AIDS memorial T-shirt. And it'd been sitting in my 384 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:58,560 closet for, for a long time. And I, I wanted to somehow 385 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,360 contribute to this Instagram account because it's so moving. 386 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,080 But I didn't have a story, right? 387 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,520 I didn't have a friend. I didn't have a family member. 388 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,600 I did there wasn't that, but I had my own story. 389 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,320 So it was a Friday afternoon. I'd rush home from work. 390 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,440 I, I pulled the T-shirt out of the closet to change into, I 391 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,840 went and met friends for a drink and I said to a friend, can you 392 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,840 do me a favour, take a photo of me in this T-shirt because I 393 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,080 need to post about it one day. So I took this photo and I 394 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,840 thought, oh, that's quite a nice picture. 395 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,760 And we had happy hour and you know, my friend came over and we 396 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800 hung out a bit at my place. And as he was leaving, he, he 397 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,200 said to me, don't do anything stupid tonight. 398 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,640 And I was like, what have you been talking about? 399 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,200 I've had martinis. I'm going to take a Xanax and go 400 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,040 to bed. It's Friday night. 401 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,000 And I looked at the picture and I think, well, nice picture. 402 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,120 I'll post it on Facebook and Instagram. 403 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,240 And I just, I didn't really even think about it. 404 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,800 I just wrote that, you know, I don't have a story of someone, 405 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,520 but I have my own story. And this is who I am. 406 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,600 And I've been, you know, living with HIV and I'm just like you. 407 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,640 And it, you know, it was just very personal. 408 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,080 It wasn't, it was, it wasn't edited. 409 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,240 There was no ChatGPT back then or any. 410 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,920 But it was just, I spoke from the heart, posted it and I went 411 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,920 to bed and that was it. And then the next morning it had 412 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,920 blown up by the night and my friend called me and he said, I 413 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,440 told you not to do anything stupid. 414 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:20,640 And I said, what are you talking about? 415 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,640 And I started it started rolling in. 416 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,280 And suddenly, you know, news media has picked up on it. 417 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,160 You know, ABC journalist comes out as HIV positive. 418 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,880 And this thing just snowballed. And I remember sitting in my car 419 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,200 somewhere that morning and having this panic moment going, 420 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,200 my God, ABC are going to think I've done this on purpose to 421 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,360 generate publicity, which I, and I, that was when I started to 422 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:49,760 fear for my job. I'm like, I'm going to get fired 423 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,160 over this, but not because of the HIV, but because I'd dropped 424 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,320 a bombshell apparently and not consulted anyone with the 425 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,160 network. Fortunately, that wasn't the 426 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,800 case. And ABC was very, I mean, Disney 427 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,920 and the ABC company were phenomenal. 428 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,600 And you know, the majority of the feedback I got and the, and 429 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,560 to this day, the messages I get, and it's because of that actual 430 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,440 response that I got that we created Plus Life, which is, you 431 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,280 know, where I'm sitting in the Plus Life studio today. 432 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,160 And seven years later, we're still producing content about 433 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,080 HIV, talking about HIV in normal ways that would be like you and 434 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,680 I, you know, like the chat we're having now. 435 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,600 Or as if we went to the pub and had a beer or a cup of coffee to 436 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,600 destigmatize it. Because I remember my boss at 437 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,760 ABC calling me and saying this should not be a news story in 438 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,120 2018. And I said I completely agree, 439 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,680 it shouldn't be. But even today, it's a news 440 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,800 story. You have other people in 441 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,320 entertainment who come out and suddenly it's, you know the I 442 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,080 mean and great. But why is this still a news 443 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,800 story in 2026? It shouldn't be, but it is. 444 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,360 Yeah. And to your point, you know, you 445 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,480 said earlier it wasn't anyone's business and therefore you 446 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,360 didn't feel the need to tell that story. 447 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,760 But it does talk to the power of stories, right? 448 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,360 Like, I think about that a lot and it's the reason I do this 449 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:11,840 podcast. It sounds like it's the reason 450 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,280 you do a lot of what you do, which is so many people can 451 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,440 learn so much or see themselves seen through a story. 452 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,840 We had a show here in the UK called I Kissed a Boy. 453 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,280 And there was a very, a very famous scene in the most recent 454 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480 season where Adam talked about being HIV positive and he talked 455 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040 about the use of the word dirty and how that may or you know, 456 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,280 don't use the word clean. So are you clean and how that 457 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,360 makes him feel dirty. And it's that use of language 458 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,400 that we often don't TV and stories give us the opportunity 459 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,080 to hear those stories and reflect on how we talk about it. 460 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,720 And obviously, one of the most powerful messages today is U = 461 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,600 U, meaning undetectable equals untransmittable. 462 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,680 Why do you think that we've even with these stories, it feels 463 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,000 like that message still hasn't quite broken through widely 464 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,320 enough. And what changes do you think, 465 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,640 people? What do you think? 466 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,960 We need to see change for people to truly understand the you 467 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,040 equals you message, but also kind of the language that has 468 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,640 become so common in, especially in queer culture. 469 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,000 Well, I think going back to the first part of your question 470 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,000 there, you know, why, why is this still a thing? 471 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,400 And because, you know, for so long HIV has been linked to sex 472 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,120 and IV drug use. And we built phenomenal 473 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,760 campaigns. And I don't use the word 474 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,840 phenomenal necessarily in a good way in to say that they were 475 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,080 wonderful campaigns. But we built these campaigns in 476 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,400 the 80s and early 90s that scared the living daylights out 477 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,840 of everybody. You know, the Grim Reaper comes 478 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,680 to mind. I know that ran in the UK as 479 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,080 well, but I think people then were going well, we, we don't 480 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,680 know what this is. We don't know how to stop it. 481 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,560 We don't know how to. So let's just scare the hell out 482 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:07,520 of people really effectively and hopefully that, you know, 483 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,120 encourages people to, you know, wear a condom or not even have 484 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:13,440 sex and think twice before sharing a needle. 485 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,200 And the problem is they did such a good job that those campaigns 486 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,000 are still to this day seared into people's memories. 487 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,760 Then you bring it back to, you know, sex. 488 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,880 I know here in America, a very puritanical society, you know, 489 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,680 people just can't deal with talking about sex. 490 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,640 People in this country can't say the word penis. 491 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,080 You have adult adults who say Weiner, they can't even say 492 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,000 toilet. They say do you need to go? 493 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,480 I'm I'm not kidding. Do you need to use the potty? 494 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,840 I'm like, I'm a 46 year old man When you told you. 495 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:57,280 So when, when you have societies that can't even say words, just 496 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:04,800 be like normal words, you create this world of, of, of, of people 497 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,000 sort of just not wanting to deal with it. 498 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,480 It's, it's over there. And as long as it's the gays and 499 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,360 as long as it's the IV drug users and as long as it's the 500 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,480 sex workers that it's over there, it's not our problem. 501 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,000 It's, we're fine with it. And so you know the language 502 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,200 like you, you said if someone says, you know, on the on those 503 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,200 apps, I remember the language, you know, clean DDFUB too. 504 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:32,200 Yeah. It makes a person feel dirty. 505 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,800 I think coming back to you equals you, which is just life 506 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,680 saving. I mean, it's just phenomenal. 507 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,960 And it's the cheapest. It's the cheapest sexual health 508 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,880 campaign message. I think anyone could ever come 509 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,440 by. You know, you equals you. 510 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,720 If you're undetectable, you're untransmittable. 511 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,520 Guess what? That's it. 512 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,200 There's nothing else behind it. I think when you've got 513 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,800 something as almost as simple as it is, people want to find ways 514 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,320 to say, well, no, it can't. It can't be that simple. 515 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,240 It it simply can't be. But it is, you know, I mean, 516 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,440 study after study after study after study shows that if you 517 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,000 are a person living with HIV and you are on effective treatment 518 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,640 and your viral load is undetectable, you cannot 519 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,000 transmit the virus sexually to a partner. 520 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,600 And we're learning more and more and more, more data is coming 521 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:29,360 out, I think, I think, I hope that soon, you know, 522 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,600 breastfeeding will will be considered not a risk. 523 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,840 The evidence all certainly suggests that. 524 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:45,200 But people want to find a reason to still not believe, and people 525 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,360 still want to find a reason to, you know, almost find blame or 526 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,760 something, especially towards, you know, queer people or sex 527 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:59,520 workers or IV drug users. I know in America, there is, and 528 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,880 rightfully so, a huge distrust in the medical system, 529 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,000 especially as it relates to black and brown folks. 530 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,600 You know, they've been horrible things that have happened in 531 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,960 this country, horrible things that would make a lot of people 532 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,120 go. I don't trust what they're 533 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,680 saying. Why should I trust that? 534 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,480 So it's a big trust issue. But that again is something why 535 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,680 we you know why another reason why we created plus life. 536 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Do you know I when I came out publicly in 2018, I'd never 537 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,440 heard of you equals you and the studies were there at that 538 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,880 point. And a year later would be when 539 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,240 the World Health Organisation CDC came on board and backed it. 540 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,720 But I got really cross the the the guy who created U = U Bruce 541 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,320 Richman reached out to me, saw my story, reached out and he 542 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,320 said, do you know about U equals UI said, I don't know anything 543 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,400 about it. And then I went to my doctor and 544 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,360 I said, what's this U equals U? Oh yeah, it's this, this, this. 545 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,800 And I said, why would you not have told me about that? 546 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,360 Well, you know, it's the, you know, the studies are ongoing. 547 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,960 And I said, but here's the difference. 548 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,280 If somebody had have said to me 10 years ago, look, you're going 549 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,960 to be fine, which is what they said in it, in the, in the 550 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,920 clinic in London, at the Dean Street Clinic, you're going to 551 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,680 live a long, healthy, happy life. 552 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,280 You take your medicine, you, you will be absolutely fine. 553 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080 They said all of that. But if somebody had have said to 554 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,680 me, oh, and by the way, there's all these studies and so far 555 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,360 that the evidence is certainly pointing towards that if you're 556 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,040 undetectable, you can't transmit the virus. 557 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,400 That would have made a huge difference. 558 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,560 Yeah. It would have given me hope 559 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,720 because for that 10 years that I didn't know about, that I 560 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,280 believed that I was dangerous, I was toxic. 561 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,880 And as much as I could put on a brave face and stand in front of 562 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,320 the cameras and be Mr Upbeat, there was a part of me that died 563 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,720 inside when I got the diagnosis at age 2727, year old young gay 564 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,240 man living in London, having, you know, this really at the 565 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,000 start of his life. Suddenly I felt handcuffed and I 566 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,480 was, you know, terrified that that I could potentially infect 567 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,240 or transmit this to somebody else. 568 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,600 Now if someone had have said to me back then when those studies 569 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,960 were going on, look, this is the, it would have given me 570 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,880 hope. It would have given me something 571 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,440 to look at, something to research and certainly would 572 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,920 have had an effect, I think on the internalised stigma, which 573 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,320 we don't talk enough about, which really did a number on me 574 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,920 and does a number on a lot of people. 575 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,960 And I'm still dealing with that. I'm still dealing with coming 576 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,800 out of that of believing I was damaged goods, that I was 577 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,920 dangerous and that I was toxic. And it's one thing for people to 578 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880 say that to your face, which happened to me, but you start to 579 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,680 believe it, and it can lead you to some pretty dark and scary 580 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,640 places, as it did me. So I don't want to kind of like 581 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,640 pull on like a the the negative thread, but I am like, how do 582 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,760 you start to overcome? Because I think it is is the 583 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,960 things we internalise are can be as negative as the things that 584 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,040 we are externally aware of. I think about this a lot from a 585 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,560 like a homophobia point of view. We all internalise a certain 586 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,520 amount of homophobia. We, I grew up in the 90s where 587 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,680 being gay was considered the word you call everything 588 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,440 negative was synonymous with gay. 589 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,760 So I grew up with that and you had to kind of unpick that. 590 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,640 And I think it took well into my 20s and 30s to kind of unpick 591 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,800 that and to really feel confident and comfortable with 592 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,280 who I am. So for you, how did you go about 593 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,600 and continuing to go about for anyone that might be listening 594 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:40,040 to this unpicking that internalised stigma around HIV? 595 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:48,520 It is ongoing and daily therapy. I got, I got into therapy, a lot 596 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,440 of it. I think creating plus life, 597 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,760 creating what we do here has been a huge part of it because 598 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,400 there is no philtre on me. For some reason, when I sit down 599 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,320 in front of this, you know, essentially a piece of glass and 600 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,880 the camera and start talking, I feel very comfortable and very 601 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,320 much at home and connecting with other people who are living with 602 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,159 HIV or people who, who work in the field or who are activists 603 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,320 or even having conversations with, you know, we've had my 604 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,520 family on and, and talking, just having real conversations. 605 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,880 It's been it's talking about it, I think is the answer to your 606 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:34,159 question, saying it out loud. And it's the best sort of 607 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:39,840 therapy for me sharing stories, compare, not comparing, but 608 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,159 listening to other people's experiences saying, yeah, 609 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,440 actually a bit of that happened to me or did this happen to you? 610 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,239 That has has been for me at least a huge part. 611 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,480 So I would I would say therapy, creating this space and what we 612 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,280 do at plus life talking about it. 613 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:02,280 But it's it's it's ongoing. I mean it, it screwed me up for 614 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,080 relationships. You know, I didn't have a 615 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,320 serious relationship for that 10 years and then I and I truly 616 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,240 believed that I would never ever have what we deem a healthy, 617 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,920 happy relationship with a person ever again. 618 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:23,040 I thought really the only way that sex would happen for me 619 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,960 would be hookups on apps or, you know, situations that weren't 620 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,960 particularly, well, not even particularly just we're not 621 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,360 healthy. And then I met somebody and it 622 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,040 just changed everything. You know, I, I, for whatever 623 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,160 reason, that person came into my life and I realised I could do 624 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:49,000 this without drugs and without alcohol and without going to 625 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,280 dark places and, and it was wonderful. 626 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,320 And then, you know, that as relationships do, that 627 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,720 relationship ended and I got very scared that I would spiral 628 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,200 straight back down into where I'd been, but I didn't. 629 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,560 And by that point, you know, we were doing this and it gave me a 630 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,640 purpose. It gave me a real solid purpose 631 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,000 for what we're doing. And now, you know, I'm in a 632 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,840 incredibly fantastic relationship with with someone. 633 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,120 And it's been a little over a year, but, but there are still 634 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,240 moments where, you know, I will make a throwaway comment without 635 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:25,280 really thinking about it, about somehow being damaged or not 636 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,360 being good enough or, you know, so it's still it's, and he'll 637 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,720 look at me and go, what are you talking about? 638 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:34,760 And I'll go, you're right. But it's, it's an ongoing thing. 639 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,360 So for me, it's been therapy, talking about it, community, 640 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,480 connecting with community and creating, creating spaces and 641 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,880 creating situations that allow me to talk about it and live it 642 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,320 out loud. Yeah, which I am so interested 643 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,600 to dig into Plus Life Media because I think it's such an 644 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,160 incredible. We've talked about it just 645 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,800 earlier and then we just talked about that just the power of 646 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,000 stories and then the power of, as you've said, building a 647 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,120 community where people can feel seen and their stories can be 648 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,360 heard. So obviously you Co founded Plus 649 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,760 Life Media to bring the conversation around about HIV 650 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,120 back kind of into the mainstream and in a more positive way than 651 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,120 have been in the past. What do you think it was that 652 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,400 was missing about that conversation that you wanted to 653 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,040 talk about and what did you want Plus Life to do different from 654 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,040 what we've seen in the past? Well, you know, I think the 655 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,360 majority of media we see and even still today with HIV 656 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,920 storylines still Hawkins back to the doom and gloom, you know, 657 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,960 and there's been, look, there's been fantastic shows and they're 658 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,400 important. They've incredibly important 659 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,960 because we do now have generations who thankfully 660 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:55,000 didn't live through the horror that was the 80s and 90s of HIV 661 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,800 and AIDS. But because of that, it's a, oh, 662 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,640 this doesn't matter anymore, you know, OK, if I end up HIV 663 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,560 positive, I take a pill every day or I get a, you know, 664 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,000 injection every couple of months. 665 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,800 And it's a both a blessing and a curse. 666 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,800 Yes, that's great. And yes, I will live a long, 667 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,000 hopefully healthy, happy life as long as I take care of myself. 668 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,600 And yes, if you diagnosed HIV positive, you can too. 669 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,520 That's great. But we're, we still with, with 670 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,720 entertainment and media, we're, we're still showing those doom 671 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,720 and gloom storylines. We're not just living with HIV, 672 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,680 you know, we're not. It's very rare. 673 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,920 There's a few television shows here in the States that have 674 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,680 done it that have had HIV positive characters, but it 675 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,320 always still felt like the HIV was kind of the character. 676 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,600 And then there was the person and I, I really wanted to show 677 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,040 it the other way. There's the person who just 678 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,080 happens to be living with HIV. And so the storytelling, I mean, 679 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,840 it's for us, it's Converse, mostly conversational, plus 680 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,960 life. You know, our our weekly digital 681 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,280 show plus talk that goes up across our platforms is everyday 682 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,600 conversations just like you and I having with people who happen 683 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,840 to be living with HIV sharing their experiences or we're 684 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,000 taking quite complicated science and medicine and talking about 685 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,680 it in a way that's actually understandable. 686 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,040 And I think that's the other thing that has been missing is 687 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,960 that, you know, it's HIV can be quite complicated once you start 688 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,120 with the medical professionals and the scientists. 689 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,520 A lot of it just is whoosh over your head. 690 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,280 It does mine. I go in and see my doctor and he 691 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,960 starts prattling off numbers to me. 692 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,160 And I'm like, look, I don't know what any of that means. 693 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,240 Just am I, you know, I'm like, how is everything? 694 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:45,360 Am I still alive to my kidneys functioning, my lip, all that? 695 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:45,920 Yeah. Yeah. 696 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,720 And that's not I, I should care more, but it, it's just it, it's 697 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:53,240 above my pay grade. So that's another part of the 698 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:56,040 conversation that we really have here at Plus Life. 699 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,760 And on the Plus Talk episodes, we sit down with the world's 700 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,720 best doctors and scientists and say, OK, you know. 701 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,720 Why haven't we found a cure yet? And talk to me like a normal 702 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:09,520 person. And I think that has, I think 703 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,560 that has been missing, whether it's in scripted television or 704 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,840 just factual stuff. And I also believe that the more 705 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,680 you say the three letters HIVHIV, the less scary it 706 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,760 becomes. And the more conversation, the 707 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,120 more people talk about it, the more familiar people are. 708 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,360 You know, there was a period where no one said cancer. 709 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,840 It was called the C word, which now the C word is another 710 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,680 fabulous word that that one shouldn't say as often as one 711 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,320 sometimes does. But people didn't say cancer, 712 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,600 right? Nowadays it's cancer, cancer, 713 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,560 cancer, cancer schmanser. And that's great. 714 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,000 And we run towards people with cancer and we embrace them and 715 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:54,440 we, we do 5K runs and we want to do all of this stuff because 716 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,680 it's no longer a scary thing. Same with divorce. 717 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,120 People never talked about divorce. 718 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,280 Oh gosh, divorce. It was stigmatised. 719 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,000 So I'm a firm believer the more we talk about HIV, the more you 720 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,840 see people who just happen to be living with HIV, great on get on 721 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,760 with it. The more we do that, the less 722 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,880 scary it becomes. The less over there it is, the 723 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,600 less that's their problem. But sadly, you know, especially 724 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,040 here in the United States, we are dangerously at risk of going 725 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,040 backwards because of, you know, silly politics and idiots in 726 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,800 Washington who think they know better but really just want to 727 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,680 line their own pockets and stay in power. 728 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,840 And we run a very serious risk of going backwards in this 729 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,440 country and now, sadly, in sub-Saharan Africa, because of 730 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,480 the things that the current administration here in the 731 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,160 States has done, not wanting to go too political, but that now 732 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,160 more than ever, it's so important that people see and 733 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,920 hear people who look and sound just like them, Who, yeah, just 734 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,840 happen to be living with HIV as well. 735 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,960 Yeah, I totally agree. And it is that, you know, people 736 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,560 need to see people living healthy, happy lives to know 737 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,640 that it's possible for them to and to, you know, we all have, 738 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,560 we all understood well for us to grow up through the 80s and 90s, 739 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,760 we have that kind of preconceived conception of 740 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,960 certain kind of certain things. And therefore being able to see 741 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,000 people know you can like with this very happy, healthy, 742 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,720 fruitful, successful life. And that's why I think what you 743 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,960 do is so important because you are telling the stories of 744 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,840 general people, but you're also unlocking education. 745 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,760 So important, which is why it's so scary to some of the things 746 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,640 that are happening around education where people aren't 747 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,400 allowed to talk about certain things anymore in certain 748 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,000 states. It's so important to have those 749 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,320 conversations. That's why what you do and the 750 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,800 platform you've created is so important because people can 751 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,040 find it themselves. So they don't if, if, if they're 752 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:52,960 not going to get it through education, they can find it 753 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,440 through you, right? Right. 754 00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,280 And, and I've always said from day one that I want people to 755 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,240 see and hear people who look and sound like them. 756 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,920 And diversity has become atrociously a dirty word for 757 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,520 some reason in this country. Got it. 758 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,360 Well, I do know why it's, you know, stupid rich old white men 759 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,840 wanting to stay in power. That's why. 760 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,440 But but it's incredibly important to what we do. 761 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,320 And to your point about education, you know, this year 762 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,440 we're heading to Rio de Janeiro at the end of July for the 763 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,080 International AIDS Conference, the biggest gathering of HIV and 764 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,720 AIDS, not only medical professionals, but activists 765 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,280 community in the world. Like 20,000 people turn up for 766 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,480 this conference and we will be there on the ground and every 767 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,560 day we will be talking to the very best scientists, but also 768 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,720 the people at the very, you know, grassroots community level 769 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,480 and sharing all of that information back out through our 770 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,160 platforms in ways that are understandable, relatable, 771 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,520 because that's important. And yeah, you know, I remember 772 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,960 I, I got it, some of the DMSI get and there was one person for 773 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,720 a while who would be literally watching our content on a cell 774 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:12,560 phone. I'm not kidding, in a closet. 775 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,160 They would hide in a closet in Pakistan and watch our content. 776 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,720 And it was their only way to feel connected. 777 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680 And, and we still get messages. I still get messages from people 778 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,080 saying thank you. I hope one day maybe I'll be 779 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,680 able to be brave enough like you. 780 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,080 But at least for now, I've got a way to see and hear 781 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,480 conversations that, Oh my gosh, for the first time ever, I feel 782 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,160 seen and heard by watching what you guys do. 783 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,960 So it's incredibly important for us that we have that reach and 784 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,160 that, that we have those conversations. 785 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,880 And sometimes they're difficult conversations. 786 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,520 Sometimes the guests we have on I, you know, strongly disagree 787 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,360 with and they disagree with me, and that's OK too. 788 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,800 You know, I think we also live in a society now where it's 789 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:04,800 become very popular to not be able to respectfully disagree 790 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,280 with someone. You know, it's either you're 791 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,960 right or you're wrong and there's nowhere in between 792 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,560 anymore, especially in this country, whether it's politics 793 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,080 or, you know, politics is the big one. 794 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,960 But I think having a disagreement is healthy. 795 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,360 You know, you and I can talk about something, we can disagree 796 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,800 on it. And then maybe 10 minutes later, 797 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,720 an hour later, I sit there and I think, yeah, gosh, what he said 798 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,120 there is. AI could kind of see that, you 799 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,760 know, and that's how we grow. So it's by talking about stuff 800 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,000 we've just come. So we've become so black and 801 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,160 white. It's this or it's that and 802 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,840 there's no, no one's prepared to even compromise or meet in the 803 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,160 middle. You can't safely have an opinion 804 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,880 anymore either. You know, I, I was having this 805 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,680 conversation literally just yesterday in the car with my 806 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,720 boyfriend and I had, I had an opinion on something and he 807 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:55,680 said, you know, that's really mean. 808 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,240 And I said, why is that mean? Well, it's, you know, and I 809 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,200 said, no, that look, that's my opinion. 810 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,800 You don't have to agree with it. I just, I have, that's how I see 811 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,640 it and it, it's OK. I don't think I'm being mean 812 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,480 because I, you know, my opinion happens to be different from 813 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,000 your opinion. We've become very sensitive to 814 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,080 that. So hopefully what we do at Plus 815 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,280 Life is invite people in to have conversations. 816 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,160 Sometimes they're messy, sometimes they get a little warm 817 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,920 under the collar, but that's life and that's colourful and I 818 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,720 think that's healthy. Yeah, I agree. 819 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,240 And I think it's one of the things that's come from social 820 00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:33,320 media. There's a lot of positive things 821 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,560 that have come from social media but the ability to voice an 822 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,880 opinion and therefore disagree with someones opinion has become 823 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,280 so normal and rewarding. And let's cancel them, yeah? 824 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But it is all about as well the 825 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:47,440 kind of the visibility that you can bring. 826 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,360 And I know you've also helped bring HIV Unwrapped to life, 827 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,320 including during New York Fashion Week, which I'm obsessed 828 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,240 with. So for our listeners who haven't 829 00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:59,680 seen it, what is HIV Unwrapped and where did that idea come 830 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,320 from? And why did fashion feel like 831 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,880 such a powerful way to to change the conversation around HIV? 832 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,320 Yeah, I wish I could take full credit for this, but I can't. 833 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:17,240 HIV Unwrapped came actually out of Australia, a wonderful human 834 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,360 being that we work very closely with and is a dear friend and 835 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,920 actually has been a mentor of mine since I sort of publicly 836 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,680 came out about my HIV status. Brent Allen, who had this idea, 837 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,600 They were at World Pride in Sydney and they saw there was 838 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:40,760 some exhibition that had paired, you know, queer industry makers 839 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,760 with, with art. And he sort of fested on this 840 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:50,760 idea of, well, what if we took, what if we took HIV science and 841 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:56,920 paired it with fashion? And so the idea is and, and for 842 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,920 New York Fashion Week, and hopefully we're doing it again 843 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,720 this year at Fashion Week. That's the plan. 844 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:02,200 And we're about to do it in Brazil. 845 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,160 And it's been done in England and it's been done in Rwanda and 846 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:06,720 it's been done now all over the world. 847 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,160 I think Sweden is doing a version of it now. 848 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,000 Canada's doing a version. But what we do is we take, let's 849 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:22,000 say 9 top HIV scientists, experts, activists, and we pair 850 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,840 them with 9 emerging fashion students. 851 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,640 And over the course of a couple of months, these that, you know, 852 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,040 we, we pair them up and they meet via Zoom or sometimes they 853 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,240 meet by a person and they get to know each other. 854 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:41,560 And essentially they collaborate on an idea to take what can be 855 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:47,080 very complicated science or, or, you know, political messaging 856 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,440 and translate it into a piece of fashion. 857 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,280 And then that fashion, you know, as you mentioned last year, 858 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,240 walked the runway during New York Fashion Week. 859 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:02,080 And it's a wonderful way to showcase and, and reignite the 860 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,600 conversation about HIV. Look, everyone likes fashion. 861 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,040 When you see a garment, it's something you can touch, you can 862 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,040 feel, you can walk around it, you can experience it. 863 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,480 And this is, as we've said, normally very complicated stuff 864 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,880 that is in laboratories and God only knows what it means. 865 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:24,120 So not only are we showcasing science, but we're also now 866 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,640 having conversations. A lot of these students don't 867 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,040 know a lot about HIV because they're of a generation that 868 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,280 didn't live through it. The the worst of it and what I 869 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,840 think is the most rewarding thing for me with this whole 870 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,560 project is seeing how these young students suddenly learn 871 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:46,720 about HIV and the science of it and actually get inspired and 872 00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:50,800 excited by it and then learn about you equals, you learn 873 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,960 about Prep. And it's saying, well, I never 874 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,520 knew that. And then they're telling their 875 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,520 friends who are telling their friends, and we're now having a 876 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,840 brand new conversation, an important conversation about 877 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,400 HIV, about undetectable equals untransmittable, about the 878 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,720 benefit of Prep that we haven't been having. 879 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,720 And we're doing it in a way that is sort of pop culture and 880 00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:17,400 exciting and fresh. So it's, it's been incredibly 881 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,920 rewarding to see those, those relationships and conversations. 882 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,120 And also, you know, you've got scientists who are often in a 883 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,360 laboratory working by themselves and they don't get to talk about 884 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,320 this stuff. And when they do, people are 885 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,880 like, and now they're invigorated because they're 886 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,000 getting to see their life's work suddenly become this stunning, 887 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,200 spectacular piece of fashion that everyone's now asking 888 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,720 about. So it's a wonderful way I think 889 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:47,680 that that we've re, we've reignited this conversation. 890 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,800 And as I said, it's we're, we're hoping to get back to New York 891 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,520 Fashion Week this year. It's happening in Rio for the 892 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,520 AIDS conference. I know it's happening in 893 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,560 Australia in September. I think the UK just had their 894 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,520 second one. Sweden is doing that, Canada is 895 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,520 doing it, and it's just, yeah, it's it's incredibly rewarding 896 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,400 to be a part of it and to see these relationships happen 897 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,000 between designer and scientists. It's really cool. 898 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,280 I'm so interested to know how it must feel for you to see these 899 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,160 things come to life, right? If we think about that journey 900 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,720 we've just taken you on from kind of your early days in kind 901 00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:30,360 of the entertainment space to your own personal journey to 902 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,040 obviously what you're doing now, looking at things like, plus 903 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,320 like media, seeing that come to life, looking at things like New 904 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,320 York Fashion Week, seeing that come to life. 905 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,400 How does that feel for yourself when you have those moments to 906 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,400 sit back? We all get so busy, but when you 907 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,920 have those moments to sit back and reflect, how do you feel and 908 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,520 reflect on that? Well, it's interesting. 909 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,520 This is part of my ongoing journey of dealing with my 910 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,760 internalised stigma and believing that I somehow I'm not 911 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,840 good enough or somehow I, I'm bad or somehow. 912 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,040 So yes, I don't want to take away from it. 913 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:12,640 Certainly I'm incredibly proud of what we have created at Plus 914 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,560 Life. And you know, there is a 915 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,680 fantastic team that puts all of this together and and makes this 916 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,840 happen on a daily basis and without them. 917 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,240 And I get a little emotional talking about them. 918 00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:31,720 But you know, my partners, Brent and Mike are two white straight 919 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:35,120 guys from the Valley. You know, they're both the same 920 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,520 age as my oldest brother and to think to see how much they've 921 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,680 learned and grown through this process about HIV. 922 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,360 And they're both dads with, with young, you know, teenage kids 923 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,800 who are who are starting their adult lives. 924 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,640 And to listen, when I listen to them talk about what we've 925 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,200 created, it's, it's that's when I get proud. 926 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,240 I think that's when I allow myself sort of to quietly sit 927 00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:02,200 back and go, wow, look at what we've done. 928 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,880 I'm not very good at standing going. 929 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,040 Oh yes, this is fat. You know, I constantly have my 930 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,840 friends telling me that, you know, Carl, you really should 931 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,160 take a minute. But for me, it's always a little 932 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:16,960 bit, it's a, it's a blessing and a curse. 933 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,560 The grass is always slightly greener, you know, on the other. 934 00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:21,200 So what's the next thing I'm doing? 935 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,480 What's the next thing I'm doing? And we've done some great. 936 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,680 You know, we, we, we got nominated for an Emmy for a 937 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:32,520 television show we did about HIV and ageing and housing, which 938 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,720 was called Marty's Place. We're very proud of it. 939 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,920 HIV unwrapped, as you mentioned, we're about to produce something 940 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:46,320 in Fiji because Fiji which I was a country I lived in as I 941 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,800 mentioned earlier and had formative years, is now has the 942 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,920 fastest and highest rate of HIV infection of anywhere in the 943 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,160 world. So there's a very, very 944 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,920 important story to be told out of Fiji, which in August, we're 945 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,680 going to go down and, and start telling that story and be part 946 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,400 of the movement to help the Pacific island nations and Fiji 947 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,200 in particular get a grip of this because it's frightening. 948 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440 It's look, when I, yeah, it feels good. 949 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,920 But I'm, I'm not very good at patting myself on the back and 950 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,240 allowing myself to say, well done. 951 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,680 It's, it's, I have a hunger in me, right? 952 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,800 And it's, I've had this since I was a kid. 953 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:32,160 You know, I'm incredibly stubborn and I put myself out 954 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:36,560 there in positions where it's either succeed or fail and 955 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,600 there's nowhere in between and it. 956 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,280 And also there's been plenty of times when I've failed and 957 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,680 fallen over. And thank God I have because I 958 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,320 think the biggest and best lessons I I've ever had have 959 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,000 been in those failure moments, whether it's personal or 960 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,800 professional or what we're trying to build. 961 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,040 You know, I've never learned anything by always being right 962 00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,920 and getting it right the first time. 963 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:04,200 So yes, I'm very, I am very proud of what we do and, and I 964 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,920 need to be better at being proud of myself, I guess. 965 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,920 You should be incredibly proud and we'll all pat you on the 966 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,400 back on your behalf because I think what? 967 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,880 You're doing is that feels good. I'm good. 968 00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:15,080 Yeah. Thank you. 969 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,760 I do think it's so incredible as someone that's doing with this 970 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,480 podcast, I just always look at people who are able to put 971 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,200 themselves out there and create. To me, it is all about creating 972 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,160 those communities and creating a place for people to go and place 973 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,520 for people to be seen and place for people to be heard. 974 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,240 I just think that's really, really important. 975 00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:35,720 I think about the journey. We've just gone on this podcast 976 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:38,080 with you and obviously we started this conversation 977 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,400 talking about your younger self. And so I'm always curious as we 978 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,560 wrap this up, if you could give your younger self one piece of 979 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,080 advice, what would it be? And then would it be different 980 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,200 if I said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus 981 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,200 person or someone who's newly diagnosed with HIV today? 982 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:05,880 It's a good question. It's, it's such a, it's, it's 983 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,160 such a saying of the moment, which it makes my skin crawl in 984 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,760 a little bit because it's not language I normally use. 985 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,640 But I would say to my younger self, give yourself some grace. 986 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:21,160 It just sounds so corny, but maybe there's a better word than 987 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,600 grace. But, but, but I think that would 988 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,840 be helpful for the younger version of me. 989 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,840 Give you, yeah, give yourself a little bit of grace. 990 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,440 And maybe I need to do that now as an adult as well. 991 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,800 And, and the advice, well, it wouldn't be that different that 992 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,080 I would give someone newly diagnosed, I think, I think the 993 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,800 important thing for somebody who's newly diagnosed is to know 994 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,280 that you should be hopeful and that there is hope. 995 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:55,440 And that can be very difficult, especially in the times we're 996 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,120 living in at the moment. And, but, but without hope, 997 00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:02,040 without being hopeful, what do we have? 998 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:08,160 So, you know, give yourself the space to sit on the floor and 999 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:13,680 have a tantrum, have some epic tantrums, cry, scream, shout, do 1000 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,400 all of that. Get it out of your system. 1001 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,160 That's OK. And every now and then you're 1002 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,840 going to fall over and you're perfectly allowed to sit there 1003 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,480 on the floor and throw that tantrum. 1004 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:29,000 But then realise that there is hope and use that to pick 1005 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,920 yourself up, dust yourself off and take another step. 1006 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,680 I love that. And that's really been the kind 1007 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,640 of the thing I've actually taken away from this is this kind of 1008 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,840 sense of creating hope and recognising hope. 1009 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,200 We talked about it with you equals you, we've talked about 1010 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,600 it through your work. It is about creating this space 1011 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,560 for people to see hope. So I just really appreciate 1012 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,360 everything you're doing, everything from plus live media 1013 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,240 to HIV Unwrapped, everything. You're contributing to our 1014 00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,320 community and ensuring that people can be seen, people can 1015 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,040 be heard, and then they can see and hear themselves in those 1016 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:04,800 people. So I really appreciate 1017 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,680 everything you do, but I really appreciate you being on Queer 1018 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,480 Talker and sharing your story with me today. 1019 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,920 Well, listen, I appreciate you for creating a space like this 1020 00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:19,120 and, and giving a platform and a voice to folks like myself to 1021 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,840 have these important conversations, especially as it 1022 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,400 relates to HIV. So thank you for inviting me to 1023 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,160 be a part of this and for doing what you do. 1024 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:31,160 And I really, really hope you get Miriam Margolis on an 1025 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,960 episode soon, because I want to hear her talking about farting 1026 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,240 and eating raw onions. We will reach out and make it 1027 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:38,600 happen.