As much as I could put on a brave face and stand in front of
the cameras and be Mr Upbeat, there was a part of me that died
inside when I got the diagnosis at age 27.
If somebody had have said to me 10 years ago, there's all these
studies and so far that the evidence is certainly pointing
towards that if you're undetectable, you can't transmit
the virus, that would have made a huge difference.
It it would have given me hope because for that 10 years that I
didn't know about that I believed that I was dangerous, I
was toxic. There's a few television shows
here in the States that have done it that have had HIV
positive characters, but it always still felt like the HIV
was kind of the character. And then there was the person.
And I, I really wanted to show it the other way.
There's the person who just happens to be living with HIV
without hope, without being hopeful.
What do we have? Hello and welcome back to the
Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories.
This is Queer Talker. I'm Ben Cicchetti, and this week
I am joined by Emmy and GLAAD award-winning creator, HIV
activist and host of Plus Life Media, Carl Schmidt.
Carl, welcome to Queer Talker. Thank you for having me and how
modest of me to have my GLAAD Media award right over my
shoulder. How embarrassing.
But I'm, I'm thrilled and I'm honoured.
I've had a look at you've, you, you, you've had some fantastic
guests. So I'm, I'm thrilled to to be
amongst them. Thanks for having me.
I'm super excited to get to know you better, to hear more about
your work, but we'll start the way we always do, which is our
queer panic rap. Of our questions, you just
respond with the first thing that comes to mind, starting
with what was the first album you ever owned?
I'm going to age myself. Wham.
Wake me up before you go. Go.
That's a phenomenal first album to owned.
And it's very queer, let's be honest.
And Speaking of music, if you had to lip sync for your life,
what song would you be choosing? Janet Jackson's together again,
because I think I know most of the words and that was the song
that was kind of a big hit in the clubs when I first started,
like going to bars and stuff. I love that I've got such a
nostalgia for that song. It's a fantastic song I saw.
Her. It's a good song, isn't it?
She's amazing. Yeah.
Great choice.
We all know obviously you live in the world of media so I'm
super curious what is your favourite queer movie or TV
show? Oh, that's hard because I've got
a few. The most recent favourite 1 is A
Friend of Dorothy and I know you you had the director on recently
short film with Miriam Margolis. But I also two films that have
stuck with me and I can always go back and watch A Beautiful
Thing, which is a British film and Sordid Lives.
Amazing. I haven't seen Sorted Life so
I'm going to have to check that out now.
I love a. Good.
Oh, it's very good. It's got Leslie Jordan in it.
It's it's a, it's a classic and Olivia Newton John.
Amazing. OK, well I've got homework,
which is great to have. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
That's easy, Dolly Parton. Love that, love that.
Who is one person you would like to hear on this podcast?
Dolly Parton or Miriam Margolis. She's always a good.
Chat yeah, she's phenomenal. I saw her on stage last year,
she came to do her book tour. She's hilarious and just such a
thought provoking person. So I think that'd be amazing.
And then what is one word you would use to describe your
childhood? International.
Interesting.
OK, well we can explore that a bit more because as long term
listeners know, I have this theory that you understand an
LGBTQ plus person as an adult or any person really is an adult.
You have to understand them as a young person.
So you say international. What should I know about you as
a young person to understand the car that sits in front of me
today? Oh, that, that's a great
question. I from the age of, well, I, I, I
was very lucky and fortunate in that my family travelled quite a
bit and starting from a young age for me, and I have an older,
I have two older brothers. One of them is an actor and he
was on a very successful Australian soap opera called
Neighbours. And so at the height of that
show, we used to get to come to travel to the UK because he
would do pantomime. So which I started like at age
9, doing these long trips from, I was born in Australia,
travelling to the UK. And then when I was 10, my
family, we moved to Fiji. And then when I was 14, we moved
to New Zealand. And when I was 18, I moved to
London. So it was always on the go.
But I also, I'm first generation Australian.
So I have a Hungarian mother and an Austrian father.
So grew up in just very, you know, lots of different
cultures. And then when I lived in Fiji as
a young boy, I went to an International School.
So I think that's why I say international because I've been
very, very, very lucky, fortunate to have been exposed
to so many different cultures and ideas and the way people
live and pray and socialise, which I'm so grateful for
because I think it's given me quite a broad open mind as an
adult and as a journalist and as someone who asks questions for a
living. So yeah, I don't does that sort
of answer it like it's that's why I said international.
Yeah, I think that's so interesting though to to your
point to what that must have taught you, there's two parts of
that that really stick out to me.
Obviously, being a Brit, Neighbours is a household,
everyone watched it. Everyone watched it growing up.
So I'm curious as to what that life was like having a brother
in that sort of role in Australia, in the UK, where it's
such a huge thing. But then also to your point,
that experience of all those different cultures and like how
much of that you still carry with you today.
Oh, I mean, I still carry all of that with me today.
I can't sit still long enough. I was.
I was, I was in New York on Thursday night.
The week before that I was in Las Vegas.
The week before that I was in Dallas.
The week before that I was in Thailand.
I'm going back to New York tomorrow and the rest of the
year I've got Brazil, Fiji, Greece, Australia, Japan, all
before October. So I'm that guy that everyone's
like, you're never home. Yeah, yeah, I'm still
international. You're a poor dog who looks
after your dog. And I do that.
That's the one thing I feel guilty about.
But to the to the first part of that question, you know, it was
I was 7 when my brother got on that television show.
And as I said, it was it was at the height of the the Neighbours
praise. Kylie was still in the show.
Jason Donovan was still in the show.
And it was, it was wonderful because if you know, suddenly we
were riding around in stretch limousines and being flown first
class all over the world and stuff.
And as a 78910 year old, that's like, it's amazing.
And you know, I got to go to work with my brother every now
and then. And, and I think that's what,
you know, I think a lot of younger siblings idolise or want
to be like their big siblings. And there's a big age gap
between my brothers and I. So my oldest brother is 8 years
older than me, Christian, six years older than me.
So you know, as a little boy, I, I, you just kind of want to hang
out and, and be accepted by your Big Brothers.
And so when I got to go to to the set of neighbours and, and
see this amazing world of it just, it was all make believe.
All that stuff I saw on television, all these houses
that everyone lived in. And suddenly I was in this giant
warehouse and it was, it was the coolest kind of, you know, I was
just left to go roam free. I could go wherever I wanted in
the studio. They'd be shooting down one end
of the stage and I'd be up in Paul Robinson's house messing
around. And I think that's where, and
because, you know, you sort of idolise your Big Brother, that's
where I got the bug to want to be in this world.
And I started out before I was sort of hosting and a
journalist. I started out as a kid actor
and, and did that for quite a few years because I followed in
my big brother's footsteps. So it was really cool.
And you'd come to England. We'd come to England every sort
of just before December, the start of panto season.
And it was madness. I mean, it was like Rockstar
madness. So yeah, it it was cool.
But what it also taught me was that when he got older and sort
of left the show and he moved to the UK and we moved to Fiji, my
parents and I and all that went away at a sort of 10 and 11
years of age to sort of have experienced that celebrity world
and then go and then see, oh, it can also go away very quickly
and you have to go back to normal life and adjust.
It wasn't a hard adjustment at the time.
And I think it, I think it set me up for what a life in this
industry. And I live in Los Angeles now
and realising that when you know when, when the, when you're at
the peak of the wave and the ride is high, it's fantastic.
But every wave crests and crashes and you have to be able
to ride that that downswing as well.
And hopefully, you know, stay buoyant enough for the next wave
when it comes up. And I think that's kind of how
my career has gone from starting out as a, when we moved to New
Zealand and I, I started working on television there as a 14 year
old and then 1516 working on as a host on a Saturday morning
kids TV show. And then that all going away
when I was 18. And then it's slowly coming back
when I was in my early 20s. And, and it's, it has, it's come
up and down and you have to learn how to ride the wave.
So I think all of that was sort of a good foundation for me to
understand a little bit more about how this industry works
and not not get so caught up in it.
Because it is very easy to get caught up in all that fun stuff.
But understand that that doesn't always last.
And what you've got to, you've got to, you know, ride the wave,
so to speak. Yeah, I think that must have
given you quite a lot. I used a similar analogy
recently to talk about kind of LGBTQ plus rights and how it
kind of comes in waves. And often it's that pull back of
the wave, you have to kind of then fight harder so the wave
goes further next time. And obviously we'll get into
kind of the current state of the LGBTQ plus community.
But I'm also curious in that environment, in that kind of
celebrity entertainment media environment for you, do you
remember the first LGBTQ plus person you just kind of became
aware of either in real life and your interactions in that world
or just seeing them through media?
Yeah, I remember. Well, you know, I remember my
mother's hairdresser back in the early 80s, Darren Grayson, who's
still alive and still cutting hair.
I found out. And it was the, you know, is it
was more the flamboyant gay that that I first became aware of.
So, you know, he was Darren Grayson's hair salon was the
best hair salon in the town we lived in.
And it was, you know, it was stunning and but he was very
over the top. And it was all this.
And then I also remember a wonderful man, a man named
William who was a makeup artist on Neighbours.
And you know this again, very flamboyant, but very caring and
attentive person who used to call me pet whenever I'd go
into. And I think he still worked on
the show, like right up until close to the end.
Those were the 2. But it but it was a it was a
sort of a flamboyancy of of queer that I remember.
And now as I now as I'm an older man and I think back on people
who were in my life when I was little.
I mean, there was there was a teacher at kindergarten who now
when I think back on it, I go, Oh yeah, that makes sense.
He was totally a gay man. But but obviously I didn't have
the words for it back then. But my first sort of realisation
of gay and remember this is sort of growing up in Australia in
the in the 80s, early 80s. It was the flamboyancy of it all
of sort of queer and gay that that you recognise more so than,
you know, other attributes that that you know, we we can
identify today. Yeah.
And then I'm curious about your own journey then your kind of
own journey of self discovery against that kind of backdrop,
because we all saw those kind of those representations that were
kind of more common in the 80s and the 90s and, and we see a
much wider representation of the queer community now.
So that journey for you. But then also I often think
about, I'm drawn to people who are very authentic.
And so I'm always curious to understand when people started
to feel that authenticity inside themselves.
And then when for you did you feel you could just bring that
authenticity to everything that you do?
Well, it's interesting. And you know, I'm, I don't mean
to be a downer now, but I'm a survivor of someone who was
sexually abused as a very young child.
I was three years old when my oldest brother's best friend,
who was I think 13 at the time, you know, sexually assaulted and
abused me. And you have to realise that at
three years of age when your big brother's best friend says hey,
let's play this game and it's going to be our secret game, you
go, OK, you don't realise it's bad.
And although it's a bit weird and uncomfortable with what was
going on, you still believe because the 13 year old boy
who's your big brother's best friend says this is our special
game, that there's nothing wrong with it.
And it's not until you get to sort of primary school as or
elementary school as as I did when at age 6 or 7 and we
started learning about stranger danger and stuff.
And you know, if the man touches you here and said, a boy does
this to you, that's bad. And again, remember, it's 1987.
So it's really bad and it's wrong.
And it's all this. And as a, as a young kid, I've
gone, well, hang on. But we played this game and it
was kind of fun. And now am IA bad now because I
did that I'm I've I'm a bad person.
There's because I, you know, there were certain elements of
it that I didn't very much did not enjoy, but there were other
elements that I thought, OK, this is it's sort of so was I
now a bad person and all the media at that time?
And then it was of course the onslaught of aids in Australia
and the campaigns that went with that.
I, I realised I had this attraction to boys.
I don't know whether that attraction came from because of
what happened to me as a three-year old, but it was
there. Now everything I hear that means
it's bad. So shut up about it.
And I sort of kept that quiet to myself.
I mean, I didn't come out to my family until I was 18.
I, I think in my social circles, it was probably more like 15-16
people who I felt safe with and in groups that I hung out with.
And it was never, I'm gay. It was just, I didn't hide it.
And I also, when I did come out to my family, you know, I never
lied about my sexuality. My mother, my mother's very
direct. And she would ask me and she
would also ask my brother because the whole family thought
Christian was gay because the showbiz world.
And you know, and she would outrage, she'd go, are you gay?
And and she would ask, you know, I was 1314 years old and I was
certainly having experiences with other boys my own age at
that point and experimenting. Then she would ask me out she
go, are you gay? And it used to drive by insane
because I would say that's none of your business.
I wouldn't, I never lied about it.
And she would say, what do you mean?
It's none of my business? I go, it's none of your
business. I don't ask what you and dad got
up to in the like, it's none of your business.
And it, you know, I mean, obviously my family had very
strong suspicions, rightfully so.
But so I sort of, I knew, I knew from a very early age.
And for a long time I was frightened because it was wrong
and bad. And then, you know, AIDS and I
remember when I came out to my mother, it was very dramatic.
My mother took it worse. And my father was like, great.
My, my grandmother at the time was like, yes, or what?
And when my mom finally came around to it and, and, and it
wasn't, it wasn't that she was, she was upset and, and I think a
lot of mothers feel this. She thought she'd let me down.
She thought she'd failed me as a mother, and that's what upset
her the most. She was, you know, when we
finally got to talking about it, she said, you know, I just I
should have, I should have provided you a home where you
felt safe that you could talk about this.
And I said, what teenager wants to talk about any part of their
sexuality or sex life, be them straight, gay, bisexual, non
binary. I don't know many teenagers back
then at least that want to have that conversation with their
parents or their siblings. It's just, you know, it's like I
said, I don't want to know what you and dad get up to.
But she felt she'd failed me. And then she said, she said,
well, I can accept this. It's you know, you know, of
course we love you. And I'm, I'm very, very lucky.
I've my family, my brothers, everyone in my orbit has always
been I I received very well. But she did say, I remember she
said to me just don't get AIDS. Whoops, 27 years of old age.
I was diagnosed HIV positive, but that's that's further
dermaline. But yeah, I sort of always, you
know, I knew from an early age and it was in there, but I never
like I said, I never lied about it.
I just chose to think, well, that's my business, it's nobody
else's business until I was ready and felt comfortable to
have those conversations. That's sort of what I'd say to
anybody really, is it's your business.
Whether it's your sexuality, whether it's your HIV status,
it's your business. And you know, it's no one's
right to tell you when you should be accepting of it or
accepting of others accepting it.
You know that has to happen on your terms.
Yeah. And you mentioned obviously then
2018 you publicly shared that you are HIV positive after
keeping it, you know, private for I think you said almost a
decade. Can you take me back to that
moment and kind of what gave you the the feeling of the ability
or made you feel ready or made you feel comfortable to say it
out loud having kind of spent all that time in the media
industry as well? Yeah, well, it was two vodka
martinis in a Xanax that gave me the confidence and the safety to
say it out loud. Look, it wasn't thought.
I didn't think about it. It wasn't a planned coming out,
as you said, You know, I, I, I was not again, I never lied
about it. I was not secretive about it.
My sexual partners knew about it.
My friend group knew about it. My family knew about it.
I didn't talk about it professionally because I didn't
see how my HIV status. Affected what I did on
television or in in the media, you know it.
It had nothing to do with how I interviewed people or how I
turned up on camera and did my work.
So I just didn't think it was something that needed to be
talked about. And, you know, very well meaning
people in my orbit who did know said, look, you don't want to be
known as the guy with AIDS on television, which is a stupid
statement because it's HIV. I'm not, you know, AIDS this day
and age. But you don't want to, you know,
you don't want to be known as the HIV guy because they'll
pigeonhole you and put you in a box.
And I thought, yeah, because like I said, it's got nothing to
do with how I do my job, how I talk to people, how I treat
people. So I just, you know, I didn't,
it was, it was, it was a non starter.
But there is this wonderful organisation from a guy out of
Scotland who who created this fantastic Instagram account
called the AIDS Memorial. And I don't know if you know it,
Bill, or your listeners and viewers know, but it's an
Instagram account where people can post pictures of people
we've lost to AIDS related illnesses over the years.
And it's a, and actually Madonna used it in her last tour.
She had a whole thing with pictures and it's, it's a
phenomenal Instagram account and it's hashtag is what is
remembered lives. And I was aware of this account
and it's, they sell, they sell merchandise And so that helps
raise money to, to help with housing and stuff for low income
people living with HIV. So I bought this T-shirts at the
AIDS memorial T-shirt. And it'd been sitting in my
closet for, for a long time. And I, I wanted to somehow
contribute to this Instagram account because it's so moving.
But I didn't have a story, right?
I didn't have a friend. I didn't have a family member.
I did there wasn't that, but I had my own story.
So it was a Friday afternoon. I'd rush home from work.
I, I pulled the T-shirt out of the closet to change into, I
went and met friends for a drink and I said to a friend, can you
do me a favour, take a photo of me in this T-shirt because I
need to post about it one day. So I took this photo and I
thought, oh, that's quite a nice picture.
And we had happy hour and you know, my friend came over and we
hung out a bit at my place. And as he was leaving, he, he
said to me, don't do anything stupid tonight.
And I was like, what have you been talking about?
I've had martinis. I'm going to take a Xanax and go
to bed. It's Friday night.
And I looked at the picture and I think, well, nice picture.
I'll post it on Facebook and Instagram.
And I just, I didn't really even think about it.
I just wrote that, you know, I don't have a story of someone,
but I have my own story. And this is who I am.
And I've been, you know, living with HIV and I'm just like you.
And it, you know, it was just very personal.
It wasn't, it was, it wasn't edited.
There was no ChatGPT back then or any.
But it was just, I spoke from the heart, posted it and I went
to bed and that was it. And then the next morning it had
blown up by the night and my friend called me and he said, I
told you not to do anything stupid.
And I said, what are you talking about?
And I started it started rolling in.
And suddenly, you know, news media has picked up on it.
You know, ABC journalist comes out as HIV positive.
And this thing just snowballed. And I remember sitting in my car
somewhere that morning and having this panic moment going,
my God, ABC are going to think I've done this on purpose to
generate publicity, which I, and I, that was when I started to
fear for my job. I'm like, I'm going to get fired
over this, but not because of the HIV, but because I'd dropped
a bombshell apparently and not consulted anyone with the
network. Fortunately, that wasn't the
case. And ABC was very, I mean, Disney
and the ABC company were phenomenal.
And you know, the majority of the feedback I got and the, and
to this day, the messages I get, and it's because of that actual
response that I got that we created Plus Life, which is, you
know, where I'm sitting in the Plus Life studio today.
And seven years later, we're still producing content about
HIV, talking about HIV in normal ways that would be like you and
I, you know, like the chat we're having now.
Or as if we went to the pub and had a beer or a cup of coffee to
destigmatize it. Because I remember my boss at
ABC calling me and saying this should not be a news story in
2018. And I said I completely agree,
it shouldn't be. But even today, it's a news
story. You have other people in
entertainment who come out and suddenly it's, you know the I
mean and great. But why is this still a news
story in 2026? It shouldn't be, but it is.
Yeah. And to your point, you know, you
said earlier it wasn't anyone's business and therefore you
didn't feel the need to tell that story.
But it does talk to the power of stories, right?
Like, I think about that a lot and it's the reason I do this
podcast. It sounds like it's the reason
you do a lot of what you do, which is so many people can
learn so much or see themselves seen through a story.
We had a show here in the UK called I Kissed a Boy.
And there was a very, a very famous scene in the most recent
season where Adam talked about being HIV positive and he talked
about the use of the word dirty and how that may or you know,
don't use the word clean. So are you clean and how that
makes him feel dirty. And it's that use of language
that we often don't TV and stories give us the opportunity
to hear those stories and reflect on how we talk about it.
And obviously, one of the most powerful messages today is U =
U, meaning undetectable equals untransmittable.
Why do you think that we've even with these stories, it feels
like that message still hasn't quite broken through widely
enough. And what changes do you think,
people? What do you think?
We need to see change for people to truly understand the you
equals you message, but also kind of the language that has
become so common in, especially in queer culture.
Well, I think going back to the first part of your question
there, you know, why, why is this still a thing?
And because, you know, for so long HIV has been linked to sex
and IV drug use. And we built phenomenal
campaigns. And I don't use the word
phenomenal necessarily in a good way in to say that they were
wonderful campaigns. But we built these campaigns in
the 80s and early 90s that scared the living daylights out
of everybody. You know, the Grim Reaper comes
to mind. I know that ran in the UK as
well, but I think people then were going well, we, we don't
know what this is. We don't know how to stop it.
We don't know how to. So let's just scare the hell out
of people really effectively and hopefully that, you know,
encourages people to, you know, wear a condom or not even have
sex and think twice before sharing a needle.
And the problem is they did such a good job that those campaigns
are still to this day seared into people's memories.
Then you bring it back to, you know, sex.
I know here in America, a very puritanical society, you know,
people just can't deal with talking about sex.
People in this country can't say the word penis.
You have adult adults who say Weiner, they can't even say
toilet. They say do you need to go?
I'm I'm not kidding. Do you need to use the potty?
I'm like, I'm a 46 year old man When you told you.
So when, when you have societies that can't even say words, just
be like normal words, you create this world of, of, of, of people
sort of just not wanting to deal with it.
It's, it's over there. And as long as it's the gays and
as long as it's the IV drug users and as long as it's the
sex workers that it's over there, it's not our problem.
It's, we're fine with it. And so you know the language
like you, you said if someone says, you know, on the on those
apps, I remember the language, you know, clean DDFUB too.
Yeah. It makes a person feel dirty.
I think coming back to you equals you, which is just life
saving. I mean, it's just phenomenal.
And it's the cheapest. It's the cheapest sexual health
campaign message. I think anyone could ever come
by. You know, you equals you.
If you're undetectable, you're untransmittable.
Guess what? That's it.
There's nothing else behind it. I think when you've got
something as almost as simple as it is, people want to find ways
to say, well, no, it can't. It can't be that simple.
It it simply can't be. But it is, you know, I mean,
study after study after study after study shows that if you
are a person living with HIV and you are on effective treatment
and your viral load is undetectable, you cannot
transmit the virus sexually to a partner.
And we're learning more and more and more, more data is coming
out, I think, I think, I hope that soon, you know,
breastfeeding will will be considered not a risk.
The evidence all certainly suggests that.
But people want to find a reason to still not believe, and people
still want to find a reason to, you know, almost find blame or
something, especially towards, you know, queer people or sex
workers or IV drug users. I know in America, there is, and
rightfully so, a huge distrust in the medical system,
especially as it relates to black and brown folks.
You know, they've been horrible things that have happened in
this country, horrible things that would make a lot of people
go. I don't trust what they're
saying. Why should I trust that?
So it's a big trust issue. But that again is something why
we you know why another reason why we created plus life.
Do you know I when I came out publicly in 2018, I'd never
heard of you equals you and the studies were there at that
point. And a year later would be when
the World Health Organisation CDC came on board and backed it.
But I got really cross the the the guy who created U = U Bruce
Richman reached out to me, saw my story, reached out and he
said, do you know about U equals UI said, I don't know anything
about it. And then I went to my doctor and
I said, what's this U equals U? Oh yeah, it's this, this, this.
And I said, why would you not have told me about that?
Well, you know, it's the, you know, the studies are ongoing.
And I said, but here's the difference.
If somebody had have said to me 10 years ago, look, you're going
to be fine, which is what they said in it, in the, in the
clinic in London, at the Dean Street Clinic, you're going to
live a long, healthy, happy life.
You take your medicine, you, you will be absolutely fine.
They said all of that. But if somebody had have said to
me, oh, and by the way, there's all these studies and so far
that the evidence is certainly pointing towards that if you're
undetectable, you can't transmit the virus.
That would have made a huge difference.
Yeah. It would have given me hope
because for that 10 years that I didn't know about, that I
believed that I was dangerous, I was toxic.
And as much as I could put on a brave face and stand in front of
the cameras and be Mr Upbeat, there was a part of me that died
inside when I got the diagnosis at age 2727, year old young gay
man living in London, having, you know, this really at the
start of his life. Suddenly I felt handcuffed and I
was, you know, terrified that that I could potentially infect
or transmit this to somebody else.
Now if someone had have said to me back then when those studies
were going on, look, this is the, it would have given me
hope. It would have given me something
to look at, something to research and certainly would
have had an effect, I think on the internalised stigma, which
we don't talk enough about, which really did a number on me
and does a number on a lot of people.
And I'm still dealing with that. I'm still dealing with coming
out of that of believing I was damaged goods, that I was
dangerous and that I was toxic. And it's one thing for people to
say that to your face, which happened to me, but you start to
believe it, and it can lead you to some pretty dark and scary
places, as it did me. So I don't want to kind of like
pull on like a the the negative thread, but I am like, how do
you start to overcome? Because I think it is is the
things we internalise are can be as negative as the things that
we are externally aware of. I think about this a lot from a
like a homophobia point of view. We all internalise a certain
amount of homophobia. We, I grew up in the 90s where
being gay was considered the word you call everything
negative was synonymous with gay.
So I grew up with that and you had to kind of unpick that.
And I think it took well into my 20s and 30s to kind of unpick
that and to really feel confident and comfortable with
who I am. So for you, how did you go about
and continuing to go about for anyone that might be listening
to this unpicking that internalised stigma around HIV?
It is ongoing and daily therapy. I got, I got into therapy, a lot
of it. I think creating plus life,
creating what we do here has been a huge part of it because
there is no philtre on me. For some reason, when I sit down
in front of this, you know, essentially a piece of glass and
the camera and start talking, I feel very comfortable and very
much at home and connecting with other people who are living with
HIV or people who, who work in the field or who are activists
or even having conversations with, you know, we've had my
family on and, and talking, just having real conversations.
It's been it's talking about it, I think is the answer to your
question, saying it out loud. And it's the best sort of
therapy for me sharing stories, compare, not comparing, but
listening to other people's experiences saying, yeah,
actually a bit of that happened to me or did this happen to you?
That has has been for me at least a huge part.
So I would I would say therapy, creating this space and what we
do at plus life talking about it.
But it's it's it's ongoing. I mean it, it screwed me up for
relationships. You know, I didn't have a
serious relationship for that 10 years and then I and I truly
believed that I would never ever have what we deem a healthy,
happy relationship with a person ever again.
I thought really the only way that sex would happen for me
would be hookups on apps or, you know, situations that weren't
particularly, well, not even particularly just we're not
healthy. And then I met somebody and it
just changed everything. You know, I, I, for whatever
reason, that person came into my life and I realised I could do
this without drugs and without alcohol and without going to
dark places and, and it was wonderful.
And then, you know, that as relationships do, that
relationship ended and I got very scared that I would spiral
straight back down into where I'd been, but I didn't.
And by that point, you know, we were doing this and it gave me a
purpose. It gave me a real solid purpose
for what we're doing. And now, you know, I'm in a
incredibly fantastic relationship with with someone.
And it's been a little over a year, but, but there are still
moments where, you know, I will make a throwaway comment without
really thinking about it, about somehow being damaged or not
being good enough or, you know, so it's still it's, and he'll
look at me and go, what are you talking about?
And I'll go, you're right. But it's, it's an ongoing thing.
So for me, it's been therapy, talking about it, community,
connecting with community and creating, creating spaces and
creating situations that allow me to talk about it and live it
out loud. Yeah, which I am so interested
to dig into Plus Life Media because I think it's such an
incredible. We've talked about it just
earlier and then we just talked about that just the power of
stories and then the power of, as you've said, building a
community where people can feel seen and their stories can be
heard. So obviously you Co founded Plus
Life Media to bring the conversation around about HIV
back kind of into the mainstream and in a more positive way than
have been in the past. What do you think it was that
was missing about that conversation that you wanted to
talk about and what did you want Plus Life to do different from
what we've seen in the past? Well, you know, I think the
majority of media we see and even still today with HIV
storylines still Hawkins back to the doom and gloom, you know,
and there's been, look, there's been fantastic shows and they're
important. They've incredibly important
because we do now have generations who thankfully
didn't live through the horror that was the 80s and 90s of HIV
and AIDS. But because of that, it's a, oh,
this doesn't matter anymore, you know, OK, if I end up HIV
positive, I take a pill every day or I get a, you know,
injection every couple of months.
And it's a both a blessing and a curse.
Yes, that's great. And yes, I will live a long,
hopefully healthy, happy life as long as I take care of myself.
And yes, if you diagnosed HIV positive, you can too.
That's great. But we're, we still with, with
entertainment and media, we're, we're still showing those doom
and gloom storylines. We're not just living with HIV,
you know, we're not. It's very rare.
There's a few television shows here in the States that have
done it that have had HIV positive characters, but it
always still felt like the HIV was kind of the character.
And then there was the person and I, I really wanted to show
it the other way. There's the person who just
happens to be living with HIV. And so the storytelling, I mean,
it's for us, it's Converse, mostly conversational, plus
life. You know, our our weekly digital
show plus talk that goes up across our platforms is everyday
conversations just like you and I having with people who happen
to be living with HIV sharing their experiences or we're
taking quite complicated science and medicine and talking about
it in a way that's actually understandable.
And I think that's the other thing that has been missing is
that, you know, it's HIV can be quite complicated once you start
with the medical professionals and the scientists.
A lot of it just is whoosh over your head.
It does mine. I go in and see my doctor and he
starts prattling off numbers to me.
And I'm like, look, I don't know what any of that means.
Just am I, you know, I'm like, how is everything?
Am I still alive to my kidneys functioning, my lip, all that?
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's not I, I should care more, but it, it's just it, it's
above my pay grade. So that's another part of the
conversation that we really have here at Plus Life.
And on the Plus Talk episodes, we sit down with the world's
best doctors and scientists and say, OK, you know.
Why haven't we found a cure yet? And talk to me like a normal
person. And I think that has, I think
that has been missing, whether it's in scripted television or
just factual stuff. And I also believe that the more
you say the three letters HIVHIV, the less scary it
becomes. And the more conversation, the
more people talk about it, the more familiar people are.
You know, there was a period where no one said cancer.
It was called the C word, which now the C word is another
fabulous word that that one shouldn't say as often as one
sometimes does. But people didn't say cancer,
right? Nowadays it's cancer, cancer,
cancer, cancer schmanser. And that's great.
And we run towards people with cancer and we embrace them and
we, we do 5K runs and we want to do all of this stuff because
it's no longer a scary thing. Same with divorce.
People never talked about divorce.
Oh gosh, divorce. It was stigmatised.
So I'm a firm believer the more we talk about HIV, the more you
see people who just happen to be living with HIV, great on get on
with it. The more we do that, the less
scary it becomes. The less over there it is, the
less that's their problem. But sadly, you know, especially
here in the United States, we are dangerously at risk of going
backwards because of, you know, silly politics and idiots in
Washington who think they know better but really just want to
line their own pockets and stay in power.
And we run a very serious risk of going backwards in this
country and now, sadly, in sub-Saharan Africa, because of
the things that the current administration here in the
States has done, not wanting to go too political, but that now
more than ever, it's so important that people see and
hear people who look and sound just like them, Who, yeah, just
happen to be living with HIV as well.
Yeah, I totally agree. And it is that, you know, people
need to see people living healthy, happy lives to know
that it's possible for them to and to, you know, we all have,
we all understood well for us to grow up through the 80s and 90s,
we have that kind of preconceived conception of
certain kind of certain things. And therefore being able to see
people know you can like with this very happy, healthy,
fruitful, successful life. And that's why I think what you
do is so important because you are telling the stories of
general people, but you're also unlocking education.
So important, which is why it's so scary to some of the things
that are happening around education where people aren't
allowed to talk about certain things anymore in certain
states. It's so important to have those
conversations. That's why what you do and the
platform you've created is so important because people can
find it themselves. So they don't if, if, if they're
not going to get it through education, they can find it
through you, right? Right.
And, and I've always said from day one that I want people to
see and hear people who look and sound like them.
And diversity has become atrociously a dirty word for
some reason in this country. Got it.
Well, I do know why it's, you know, stupid rich old white men
wanting to stay in power. That's why.
But but it's incredibly important to what we do.
And to your point about education, you know, this year
we're heading to Rio de Janeiro at the end of July for the
International AIDS Conference, the biggest gathering of HIV and
AIDS, not only medical professionals, but activists
community in the world. Like 20,000 people turn up for
this conference and we will be there on the ground and every
day we will be talking to the very best scientists, but also
the people at the very, you know, grassroots community level
and sharing all of that information back out through our
platforms in ways that are understandable, relatable,
because that's important. And yeah, you know, I remember
I, I got it, some of the DMSI get and there was one person for
a while who would be literally watching our content on a cell
phone. I'm not kidding, in a closet.
They would hide in a closet in Pakistan and watch our content.
And it was their only way to feel connected.
And, and we still get messages. I still get messages from people
saying thank you. I hope one day maybe I'll be
able to be brave enough like you.
But at least for now, I've got a way to see and hear
conversations that, Oh my gosh, for the first time ever, I feel
seen and heard by watching what you guys do.
So it's incredibly important for us that we have that reach and
that, that we have those conversations.
And sometimes they're difficult conversations.
Sometimes the guests we have on I, you know, strongly disagree
with and they disagree with me, and that's OK too.
You know, I think we also live in a society now where it's
become very popular to not be able to respectfully disagree
with someone. You know, it's either you're
right or you're wrong and there's nowhere in between
anymore, especially in this country, whether it's politics
or, you know, politics is the big one.
But I think having a disagreement is healthy.
You know, you and I can talk about something, we can disagree
on it. And then maybe 10 minutes later,
an hour later, I sit there and I think, yeah, gosh, what he said
there is. AI could kind of see that, you
know, and that's how we grow. So it's by talking about stuff
we've just come. So we've become so black and
white. It's this or it's that and
there's no, no one's prepared to even compromise or meet in the
middle. You can't safely have an opinion
anymore either. You know, I, I was having this
conversation literally just yesterday in the car with my
boyfriend and I had, I had an opinion on something and he
said, you know, that's really mean.
And I said, why is that mean? Well, it's, you know, and I
said, no, that look, that's my opinion.
You don't have to agree with it. I just, I have, that's how I see
it and it, it's OK. I don't think I'm being mean
because I, you know, my opinion happens to be different from
your opinion. We've become very sensitive to
that. So hopefully what we do at Plus
Life is invite people in to have conversations.
Sometimes they're messy, sometimes they get a little warm
under the collar, but that's life and that's colourful and I
think that's healthy. Yeah, I agree.
And I think it's one of the things that's come from social
media. There's a lot of positive things
that have come from social media but the ability to voice an
opinion and therefore disagree with someones opinion has become
so normal and rewarding. And let's cancel them, yeah?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But it is all about as well the
kind of the visibility that you can bring.
And I know you've also helped bring HIV Unwrapped to life,
including during New York Fashion Week, which I'm obsessed
with. So for our listeners who haven't
seen it, what is HIV Unwrapped and where did that idea come
from? And why did fashion feel like
such a powerful way to to change the conversation around HIV?
Yeah, I wish I could take full credit for this, but I can't.
HIV Unwrapped came actually out of Australia, a wonderful human
being that we work very closely with and is a dear friend and
actually has been a mentor of mine since I sort of publicly
came out about my HIV status. Brent Allen, who had this idea,
They were at World Pride in Sydney and they saw there was
some exhibition that had paired, you know, queer industry makers
with, with art. And he sort of fested on this
idea of, well, what if we took, what if we took HIV science and
paired it with fashion? And so the idea is and, and for
New York Fashion Week, and hopefully we're doing it again
this year at Fashion Week. That's the plan.
And we're about to do it in Brazil.
And it's been done in England and it's been done in Rwanda and
it's been done now all over the world.
I think Sweden is doing a version of it now.
Canada's doing a version. But what we do is we take, let's
say 9 top HIV scientists, experts, activists, and we pair
them with 9 emerging fashion students.
And over the course of a couple of months, these that, you know,
we, we pair them up and they meet via Zoom or sometimes they
meet by a person and they get to know each other.
And essentially they collaborate on an idea to take what can be
very complicated science or, or, you know, political messaging
and translate it into a piece of fashion.
And then that fashion, you know, as you mentioned last year,
walked the runway during New York Fashion Week.
And it's a wonderful way to showcase and, and reignite the
conversation about HIV. Look, everyone likes fashion.
When you see a garment, it's something you can touch, you can
feel, you can walk around it, you can experience it.
And this is, as we've said, normally very complicated stuff
that is in laboratories and God only knows what it means.
So not only are we showcasing science, but we're also now
having conversations. A lot of these students don't
know a lot about HIV because they're of a generation that
didn't live through it. The the worst of it and what I
think is the most rewarding thing for me with this whole
project is seeing how these young students suddenly learn
about HIV and the science of it and actually get inspired and
excited by it and then learn about you equals, you learn
about Prep. And it's saying, well, I never
knew that. And then they're telling their
friends who are telling their friends, and we're now having a
brand new conversation, an important conversation about
HIV, about undetectable equals untransmittable, about the
benefit of Prep that we haven't been having.
And we're doing it in a way that is sort of pop culture and
exciting and fresh. So it's, it's been incredibly
rewarding to see those, those relationships and conversations.
And also, you know, you've got scientists who are often in a
laboratory working by themselves and they don't get to talk about
this stuff. And when they do, people are
like, and now they're invigorated because they're
getting to see their life's work suddenly become this stunning,
spectacular piece of fashion that everyone's now asking
about. So it's a wonderful way I think
that that we've re, we've reignited this conversation.
And as I said, it's we're, we're hoping to get back to New York
Fashion Week this year. It's happening in Rio for the
AIDS conference. I know it's happening in
Australia in September. I think the UK just had their
second one. Sweden is doing that, Canada is
doing it, and it's just, yeah, it's it's incredibly rewarding
to be a part of it and to see these relationships happen
between designer and scientists. It's really cool.
I'm so interested to know how it must feel for you to see these
things come to life, right? If we think about that journey
we've just taken you on from kind of your early days in kind
of the entertainment space to your own personal journey to
obviously what you're doing now, looking at things like, plus
like media, seeing that come to life, looking at things like New
York Fashion Week, seeing that come to life.
How does that feel for yourself when you have those moments to
sit back? We all get so busy, but when you
have those moments to sit back and reflect, how do you feel and
reflect on that? Well, it's interesting.
This is part of my ongoing journey of dealing with my
internalised stigma and believing that I somehow I'm not
good enough or somehow I, I'm bad or somehow.
So yes, I don't want to take away from it.
Certainly I'm incredibly proud of what we have created at Plus
Life. And you know, there is a
fantastic team that puts all of this together and and makes this
happen on a daily basis and without them.
And I get a little emotional talking about them.
But you know, my partners, Brent and Mike are two white straight
guys from the Valley. You know, they're both the same
age as my oldest brother and to think to see how much they've
learned and grown through this process about HIV.
And they're both dads with, with young, you know, teenage kids
who are who are starting their adult lives.
And to listen, when I listen to them talk about what we've
created, it's, it's that's when I get proud.
I think that's when I allow myself sort of to quietly sit
back and go, wow, look at what we've done.
I'm not very good at standing going.
Oh yes, this is fat. You know, I constantly have my
friends telling me that, you know, Carl, you really should
take a minute. But for me, it's always a little
bit, it's a, it's a blessing and a curse.
The grass is always slightly greener, you know, on the other.
So what's the next thing I'm doing?
What's the next thing I'm doing? And we've done some great.
You know, we, we, we got nominated for an Emmy for a
television show we did about HIV and ageing and housing, which
was called Marty's Place. We're very proud of it.
HIV unwrapped, as you mentioned, we're about to produce something
in Fiji because Fiji which I was a country I lived in as I
mentioned earlier and had formative years, is now has the
fastest and highest rate of HIV infection of anywhere in the
world. So there's a very, very
important story to be told out of Fiji, which in August, we're
going to go down and, and start telling that story and be part
of the movement to help the Pacific island nations and Fiji
in particular get a grip of this because it's frightening.
It's look, when I, yeah, it feels good.
But I'm, I'm not very good at patting myself on the back and
allowing myself to say, well done.
It's, it's, I have a hunger in me, right?
And it's, I've had this since I was a kid.
You know, I'm incredibly stubborn and I put myself out
there in positions where it's either succeed or fail and
there's nowhere in between and it.
And also there's been plenty of times when I've failed and
fallen over. And thank God I have because I
think the biggest and best lessons I I've ever had have
been in those failure moments, whether it's personal or
professional or what we're trying to build.
You know, I've never learned anything by always being right
and getting it right the first time.
So yes, I'm very, I am very proud of what we do and, and I
need to be better at being proud of myself, I guess.
You should be incredibly proud and we'll all pat you on the
back on your behalf because I think what?
You're doing is that feels good. I'm good.
Yeah. Thank you.
I do think it's so incredible as someone that's doing with this
podcast, I just always look at people who are able to put
themselves out there and create. To me, it is all about creating
those communities and creating a place for people to go and place
for people to be seen and place for people to be heard.
I just think that's really, really important.
I think about the journey. We've just gone on this podcast
with you and obviously we started this conversation
talking about your younger self. And so I'm always curious as we
wrap this up, if you could give your younger self one piece of
advice, what would it be? And then would it be different
if I said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus
person or someone who's newly diagnosed with HIV today?
It's a good question. It's, it's such a, it's, it's
such a saying of the moment, which it makes my skin crawl in
a little bit because it's not language I normally use.
But I would say to my younger self, give yourself some grace.
It just sounds so corny, but maybe there's a better word than
grace. But, but, but I think that would
be helpful for the younger version of me.
Give you, yeah, give yourself a little bit of grace.
And maybe I need to do that now as an adult as well.
And, and the advice, well, it wouldn't be that different that
I would give someone newly diagnosed, I think, I think the
important thing for somebody who's newly diagnosed is to know
that you should be hopeful and that there is hope.
And that can be very difficult, especially in the times we're
living in at the moment. And, but, but without hope,
without being hopeful, what do we have?
So, you know, give yourself the space to sit on the floor and
have a tantrum, have some epic tantrums, cry, scream, shout, do
all of that. Get it out of your system.
That's OK. And every now and then you're
going to fall over and you're perfectly allowed to sit there
on the floor and throw that tantrum.
But then realise that there is hope and use that to pick
yourself up, dust yourself off and take another step.
I love that. And that's really been the kind
of the thing I've actually taken away from this is this kind of
sense of creating hope and recognising hope.
We talked about it with you equals you, we've talked about
it through your work. It is about creating this space
for people to see hope. So I just really appreciate
everything you're doing, everything from plus live media
to HIV Unwrapped, everything. You're contributing to our
community and ensuring that people can be seen, people can
be heard, and then they can see and hear themselves in those
people. So I really appreciate
everything you do, but I really appreciate you being on Queer
Talker and sharing your story with me today.
Well, listen, I appreciate you for creating a space like this
and, and giving a platform and a voice to folks like myself to
have these important conversations, especially as it
relates to HIV. So thank you for inviting me to
be a part of this and for doing what you do.
And I really, really hope you get Miriam Margolis on an
episode soon, because I want to hear her talking about farting
and eating raw onions. We will reach out and make it
happen.