Why am I getting on this night bus to travel 40 minutes like
this? To go and sleep on my friend's
sofa for the night when there is a hot boy that I want to kiss
asking me to go home with him and I'm choosing to get on this
night bus because I said that I was straight.
When a bisexual person breaks up with someone, they're not just
breaking up with that person the way that a gay and a straight
person does. You are leaving that way of
life. I did all the right straight
things. I got married, I've had three
kids, we've got a nice chunky mortgage.
And now I'm waking up wondering, does my wife love me or the
straight character I've been playing all these years?
One of the biggest issues for bisexual men is that the
majority of women say that they would not date a bisexual man.
And it goes much deeper. It's not just that they wouldn't
date a bisexual man, they would not date a man who has had any
form of sex with another man. When it actually did come up, he
was like, Oh no, all the kids at school think you're really cool
because she had an argument with Piers Morgan on TV.
So like, OK. The one good thing Piers Morgan
can do. Hello and welcome back to the
Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories.
This is queer talker and I'm Ben Cicchetti.
This week I am joined by broadcaster, author of Oscar by
Dad and my fellow podcaster Lewis Oakley.
But before we get to that conversation, I've got a very
quick favour to ask. Wherever you are watching or
listening to this episode, hit that subscribe button.
It's one click and it's going to make a massive difference.
It's allowed me to grow this podcast and it's allowed me to
bring you the best and the Queerest episodes every single
time. So advance, thank you.
Now to my conversation with Lois.
Lois, we will start with our queer panic rapid fire set of
questions. You just respond with the first
thing that comes to mind, starting with what was the first
album you ever owned? I think it was hearsay for my
sins. Amazing.
There might be some people Googling hearsay at this point,
but I can say that show my. Age show my age.
If you had to lip sync for your life, what song would you
choose? You know what, Halloween is
still in my head, so I think it would be from Hocus Pocus.
I put a spell on you because I wouldn't do it justice, but I'd
enjoy doing it. Yeah, and it'd be a vibe.
So I'm all for a vibe. Who was a childhood celebrity
crush of yours? Like probably like Mildred
Hubble from The Worst Witch. That's so random.
Right. That's amazing.
What? Is your biggest theme happening
already? That's a witchy theme for sure
coming through. What is your biggest red flag?
People trying to convince me that they're nice or good
people. Yeah, I can feel that.
I can feel. To try and convince me of that
it should be obvious. Yeah, there you go.
Actions speak out louder than words.
What is your favourite queer movie or TV show?
OK, I'm going to get in trouble with this, but Lucifer, because
Lucifer is bisexual, it is confirmed.
And it was quite nice to have a bisexual man that was suave, a
little bit problematic, bit naughty and cheeky and just
having fun with it. Obviously it would have been
great if you'd have said the word bisexual in those five
seasons, but we take what we can get in the bisexual community.
Hey, that's great. I love that show.
It's a great show. Who is one person you would like
to hear on this podcast? I would love to hear Spencer
Cooper who runs Love Queers. They are incredible.
I know them personally. I always feel like they don't
get the the recognition they deserve.
Such a genuinely good person and really loves this community and
does everything they can to really celebrate people.
I think that's great. I love that.
We will definitely reach out and try and get them on the podcast.
That sounds fantastic. And final of our quick panic
questions, What is one word you would use to describe your
childhood? Fun.
OK, I like that. I like that.
Well, we've warmed up. I feel like we've got to know
you a little bit better. I got a little bit of insight
into your witchy ways. So let's get a bit deeper.
And you said fun. And I have this theory that to
understand an LGBTQ plus person as an adult, you do first need
to understand them as a young person.
So what should I know about you as a child or a teenager to
understand the Lewis that sits in front of me today?
Well, like everyone, my childhood wasn't crazily, you
know, fun and just rainbows and ponies.
But I look back fondly. I can look back on my childhood
and despite there being issues, enjoy it and be grateful.
And I had such a important relationship with all of my
grandparents, in particular two of my nans and my great auntie.
If I can't miss her out, that just, I think really set me up
for life and just kind of like take no notice and just having
kind of like funny phrases to go to when life is hard of being
like, oh God, well we have to just put up with it then or
what, you know, it's like actually having that kind of
base of seeing people deal with stuff but still be funny and
still put family at the heart of things was really important to
me. Like so many other bisexuals, I
did not realise I was bisexual until a lot later.
I think I was 19. So it's actually sort of when I
moved to London and was around all these gays and it looked fun
so. So I didn't really realise.
So that was quite interesting. So I think a lot of people deal
with the coming out thing in the realisation a lot, a lot
earlier, whereas I just kind of assumed, like every other guy, I
was straight. It's only when I sort of look
back now, I'm like, you were so clearly bisexual, like how could
you not have understood that? But it just wasn't in my
wheelhouse of things to know about.
So, you know, the whole fact that I had a paper round and I
would always linger on this one street and just hope that this
one boy would come out so that I could like wave to him and say
hello. No, I just thought I wanted to
be his friend at the same at school.
It's like I didn't realise, you know, that I wanted to kiss the
the boys that I wanted to hang out.
I just thought I wanted to hang out with them because they were
fun and cool. I wanted them to be my friend
and to like me. Really.
I probably just wanted to kiss him and didn't care too much
about his personality actually. That's fair.
And I think it's interesting, right, because it talks to you
mentioned Lucifer and you mentioned the fact that, you
know, whilst it was clear he was bisexual, he never actually said
the words bisexual. And it talks to the importance
of kind of that representation and seeing yourself reflected.
Do you remember the first LGBTQ plus or I guess specifically
bisexual person you became aware of either in real life or
through media? Well, let's say first LGBT
person. So like my first day at uni,
there was a guy there that was on my courses and we just became
friends quite quickly. And he was, I think he was
identifying as bisexual at the time.
He later came out as gay, but then he was like, oh, you should
come out with us. And so I was like, oh OK, I'll
come out of you guys. And obviously only ever went to
gay clubs and stuff. And so that was weird to me as a
straight guy, like going to gay clubs for the first time and you
know, just just having my eyes opened.
It was, I know it sounds weird. It was not that I ever kind of
was like, oh, maybe I'm gay or bi and had an issue with.
It was just honestly something that never really occurred to
me. And so getting that kind of
experience and seeing all of these happy gay people dancing
and I mean, kids today going to gay clubs.
I mean, you don't know what it was like in the early like
teenies, like we, we partied really well.
I mean, we used to go to this bar called Quilly Out.
It's not even there anymore. It's been gentrified.
And I think it's like some pop up clothing store now.
But back in the day you could get 99 P shots and £1.40 mixers
and the security guard would let you dance on his shoulders and
it was a great. Time we missed those days.
So when do you think obviously, you know, going to those gay
clubs for the first time and other than your kind of your
paper route and that kind of spark of maybe knowing you
wanted to wave at that boy, when do you think you did first feel
that kind of inner queerness? And do you remember kind of that
feeling of how and how you kind of reacted to it?
Yeah, so it was my first ever Pride in London.
So it was that first year of uni.
And so I've been going to these gay clubs and meeting people and
realising I think he's hot and everyone is kissing all these
hot boys. I'm the only one here not
kissing hot boys. Why?
And so I've kind of been like, I'd say I was sort of saying
that I was by curious. I don't remember I'd said that
to anyone at the time, but at least in my head I knew that
like, it seemed like something I really wanted to do for some
reason. And it was sort of the night
that we went out sort of before Pride.
So it's a few days before Pride. And there was a really cute boy
there and I think I got his number or something like that.
And then he was like, I'll see you at Pride.
And I was like, OK, still kind of thinking, well, I'm straight,
but you know, what happens while I'm drinking?
You get like, you know, it was kind of like, I wasn't even sure
what I was thinking myself, but I knew he was hot.
Anyway, we met up at Pride and we had like, some of those
alcoholic slush puppies. I really liked him.
I really thought he was really hot.
And then I remember it's sort of the end of the night and it was
like, time to go home. And he said to me, come back to
mine and I was like, oh, I'm not gay.
But I do think you're really good looking though.
But yeah, it's it's not really for me.
And I remember getting on the night bus, which in those days
like they were single Decker, but they were sort of like 2
buses pulled together and they have them anymore.
And it was pride and it was rammed and people were smoking
weed on the bus and me and my friend literally were like face
to face. And I was just like why am I
getting on this night bus to travel 40 minutes like this to
go and sleep on my friend's sofa for the night when there is a
hot boy that I want to kiss asking me to go home with him.
And I'm choosing to get on this night bus because I said that I
was straight and I literally looked my friend in the eye and
I was like, bye and press the stop button and got off words to
live by after then and went home with him.
So that was it. And one thing I should say about
that story, though, was in in the actual daytime, you know,
kind of walking around central London.
And I remember so clearly being in Trafalgar Square and they
actually had bicurious stickers and just kind of feeling the
sort of strength of everyone there being like this many
people can't be wrong. Like, why would I feel ashamed
of being part of this? Not that I did feel ashamed, but
maybe just kind of like, oh, like, you know, on edge about
something that you haven't explored before.
And just being surrounded by that many people that were
happy, like fun to be around, like living their lives enjoying
themselves, just being like, Oh my God, like if anyone has a
part a problem with this, like you are missing out one hell of
a party. Like what are we talking about?
So I think that having that in the daytime of just being around
all that energy gave me the confidence to take the boy home.
Wow, I mean so say probably. Clearly he was a man.
We were a man, yes. Let's clarify that.
I guess from that first kind of like by moment where you're
like, I'm going, I'm going to explore this.
When do you think you then first felt authentically yourself and
when did you feel you could then just kind of be authentic in any
in everything that you do? I think it was probably publicly
coming out as bisexual because I'd really struggled over the
years with am I gay now? No, I'm not gay.
Oh, I'm bi. People being like, well, there's
no such thing, so tough luck. You're either gay or straight.
Having to sort of deal with that and sort of coming through the
other side where it's like, you know, you're sort of nervous
when you're not straight and then when you realise you're
bisexual, you're even more nervous.
It's like, well, two communities are going to take the Mick out
of me now. So then getting to a point where
I was not. So I'd say one of the pinnacle
moments I remember so clearly was one of my boyfriends.
I dated a guy for a few years, which then even complicated
things. It's like, I'm bi but I'm dating
a guy. And I'm sure we'll get on to
that. But one of his friends said to
me, you don't get any 30 year old bisexuals, do you?
So you'll have to pick what eventually.
And I remember being so unconfident in myself and my
sexuality at the time that I said, yeah, I guess it pays me
to this day that I said that. Coming through the other side
where I actually, how I started doing, what I was doing was that
I went to a friend's birthday party and there was a guy that,
you know, you go to birthdays parties, you meet friends of
friends. And I was speaking to this guy
and he was like, are you single? I was like, no, I'm dating
someone. She's this really great girl.
And he was like, go, oh, honey, you're gayer than me.
And then proceeded to then RIP into bisexuality for a minute.
And by that point I was actually strong, confident in myself,
confident in bisexuality. And I went to town on him and
was just like threw everything at him.
And he was like, he actually, to be fair to him, was it was an
argument. It was more of a monologue.
And he was really quiet for it. And then he turned to me and was
like, that's really good. You make really good arguments,
like you should do something with this, like you should write
something. And then he basically was like,
I've got this website. You could write this thing.
Like it'd be interesting to hear from Someone Like You.
I was like, OK, I don't know how to send out to I'm writing
something. So my first article I wrote like
pretty, you know, tipsy on the tube on the way home on my notes
app. Obviously checked it the next
morning and sent it and then everything sort of grew from
there. And I think that doing that made
me feel authentic. It was like, it's not just that
I have made peace with this myself.
I actually have the strength now and the belief to try and do my
best to make sure no one else feels like I did, that this is
an issue. And to go out and have arguments
with people that have a problem with it, like I'm up for it.
And that has felt to me what's made me authentic.
It wasn't just accepting, it was that I had to go out and say,
right, who's got a problem? Who is it?
You? What's your problem?
Come on man. Yeah, yeah, it's super
interesting that you touch on a couple of things that I find
fascinating whenever I speak to either friends or bisexual or
other bisexual people on this podcast.
Is there used to be kind of this phrase that kind of did the
rounds, which was by now gay later, and I think it came from,
and my suspicion is, and you'll correct me I'm sure if I'm
wrong, is it came from the fact that people like me, gay men
would use kind of bisexuality as their litmus test for coming out
right? They would say, well, I'm by to
kind of, I guess try and make people more comfortable with it
and then later come out as gay, but they will probably never
actually bisexual. That clearly, I assume, did real
damage to how people perceive bisexuality though, right?
They see it as almost like a stepping stone to one or the
other. How do you think we can?
Do you think, first of all, do you think kind of my analysis of
it is correct, but then also how do you think we can untangle
that legacy and kind of empower bisexual people in the way that
you're clearly trying to? Yeah, it's interesting.
It's a very multifaceted issue, but it is one of the biggest
issues I think bisexual people face because you're absolutely
right. A lot of gay men historically
would say that they would buy sort of check the waters and
then come out as gay. And there's research on that.
I think it is something crazy, like I think it's something like
80% of gay men do that. But what's more surprising is
that most of them know they're not actually bisexual at the
time that they know that they're gay and they're just either
struggling with that themselves or just really just testing the
waters. And it does real damage.
Now, I've given this a lot of thought over the years, as you
would have thought. So #1 is that we cannot judge
anyone's coming out journey. Coming out is really hard.
And whatever you need to do to ease the path is just what had
to happen. You know what I'm saying?
So I'm not there kind of saying like you gaze, look at what
you've done, like you've caused all this stigma.
But. It's all our fault.
But what I really take issue with is gay men that do that and
then only see sexuality for their own experience and then
will say, oh, bisexual, yeah, I used to be that.
Eventually you'll come out as gay.
It's like, no, no, you actually did some reputational damage.
We forget about that. We talked that up to coming out.
It is what it is, but you don't have any authority or right to
then go around assuming that everyone is doing what you did.
For some people, bisexuality is just what they are.
It's not a coming out vehicle like it was for you.
So that is sort of one thing that we need to get clear in in
the heads of a lot of people particularly like this issue
runs really deep because if we look at the LGBT, the majority
of people in the LGBT are bisexual.
Like numbers wise, we're about 52% of the LGB.
If the bit that looks at sexuality, 52%, yet we receive
depending on what report you're looking at.
And there's been all the reports we receive about 1% of annual
LGBT funding. So we're part of this movement
and group and all of these organisations that say that
they're safeguarding us, but we get the minimal amount of
monetary input. And that means people are less
likely to be looking at the issues bisexuals are dealing
with, certainly not looking at the solutions for them,
certainly not thinking we need an awareness campaign or
whatever it is or whatever, whatever those things are, it's
not being done. And that is a big issue.
And a lot of that comes down to a lot of LGBT groups that are
run by gay men think, oh, what a bisexual spare doesn't really
matter a real thing. So it does like it does run
deep. It's not just about attitudes on
the street. It's it's it's a whole wider
issue. My hope is that as things are
progressing, I think that now people probably are more
confident to just come out as gay, that we've done a lot of
work there to get rid of that stigma so that maybe you're not
getting as many people using it as that bisexuality as that
vehicle as they did maybe historically.
So maybe just naturally over time that might come out.
I do take a lot of issue with celebrities that come out as
bisexual thing come out as gay. Number one, you you've chosen to
come to the public with this. So I'm allowed to have an
opinion in a way that I probably wouldn't have an opinion with
just Joe next door. But I have been in that
situation where bisexuals because of what I do, will come
to me and say, Oh my God, isn't it great that I'm not going to
go off on aid celebrity here, but I insert celebrity name has
come out as bisexual. It makes me feel so great that
we've got, you know, an Olympian or a swimmer.
That's like raising the flag for us that more people are going
to. Then a few years later when they
come out as gay, suddenly they went from being this inspiration
to their they're an example to beat you with.
I definitely have had a lot of people that like, Oh my God, Now
when I'm saying bisexual, they're like, oh, like the
insert celebrity name was from this show.
Yeah, that lasted long, didn't it?
And that causes real damage. And fair enough to them if that
is their journey that they've been on.
But you have to as a public figure, then come back out and
say, look, it turns out bisexuality wasn't for me.
Obviously it's a valid, you know, you have to come back and
do that because you you do too much damage otherwise to almost
the reputation of bisexuality. And look, there's a lot of other
things. To this situation, but I don't
want to understate how much bisexuals not being taken
seriously impacts things. It impacts our mental health, it
impacts literally the funding and the attention and care that
people that have put themselves in charge of our care like LGBT
organisations give us. But it's very multifaceted.
And that's why it feels for a lot of bisexuals, like things
just have not really moved on that it's still this issue of
like, you know, Can you imagine if like, as gay men, it was
like, oh, our biggest issue is no one believes that, that, that
it's a thing. It's just you just hope that can
we get there's so much more to do and and to fix.
Like, can we not just get past that first hurdle?
Yeah, it's a real thing. My God.
Yeah, I agree. I think I think it's an
incredible challenge. I think there is a lot to kind
of unpick about how society and even like the LGBTQ plus
community itself has treated by sexual people.
One of the things I often hear is a real challenge is that when
a bisexual person is in a relationship with someone of a
different gender, they are considered gay.
When they're straight, sorry. When they're in a relationship
with someone of the same gender, they are just considered gay or
lesbian. How do you in yourself and as a
community, how do we navigate that kind of self erasure?
And then how? Do you you?
And other bisexual people kind of hold onto that inner
queerness no matter who they're dating.
Yeah, it's really hard. I mean.
So where to start with this? Easy question, yes.
It's really hard like, like people if they didn't know who I
was, people that look at me in the street would see me with
three kids and a female partner and say there's another straight
guy. So it's very hard because in the
same way that, you know, if a gay couple walk past holding
hands, people say, oh, it's a gay couple.
So you're getting that day-to-day representation.
People are seeing it very hard to see bisexuality unless I'm
going to have a threesome on the street, which I'm not going to
do again, Nigel. So for me it it is an issue.
And I think for bisexuals, what I tell them when they're in this
situation is you have to be visible in a way that's
comfortable for you. So if it is that you want to
have the bisexual colours of love hearts on your social media
bio, fine. You know, there's one guy I know
that's like, oh, I've, I'm writing comic books.
So I'm putting bisexual characters into my comic books
for the representation and that kind of thing.
Obviously there are motormales like me.
They'll be like, well, I'll do a podcast, I'll do a book.
I'll do, you know, I'll just keep talking about it.
Even I have like T-shirts with just bisexual on just in case
I'm like up for just in case anyone's not curious, going to
going to parents evening and making a statement.
So everyone has to do what they're comfortable with it.
It's hard and look, we are a visual species and that that
happens. And I think I was talking about
this on I think it was art. So I've just launched a YouTube
series myself called Bisective and I think I was talking about
it on this which is that the. There's this.
Stigma, I guess that bisexual people, you know that oh they've
got such a sexual appetite you just can't quench it That's why
you should never date a bisexual because they're obviously going
to cheat. I actually think the reverse is
true. And there is data to suggest
that bisexual people are more likely to experience violence in
a relationship. And I believe it's because
bisexual people stay in relationships that have become
toxic for too long. And the reason I think that that
is the case from years of having an advice column where I speak
directly to bisexual people is because when a bisexual person
breaks up with someone, they're not just breaking up with that
person the way that they gain a straight person does.
You are leaving that way of life.
So you are losing your connection to the queer
community in some cases, if you go from dating someone of the
same gender to someone else, that, that, that, that
connection can be gone. And then suddenly you are like
me doing the school run and stuff and being like, I haven't
seen an LGBT person in weeks. And you know, the reverse is
true as well. So you, you might be in a
relationship and be like, you know what, I really want kids.
And we actually, we don't have to go through surrogacy or
adoption. It's going to be so much easier
this way. Like I, you know, you lose all
of that. So you're happy as you know,
even the holidays you can take in countries you can go to in
the world. So much of that is dependent on
the person you're with. Whereas, you know, a gay man
might say, look, I know I'm never going to be able to have a
biological child with the person they end up with.
Although hold out because there there is some interesting
scientific news on that. But you know, they've kind of
factored that in and it's not dependent on the partner.
That's always going to be the same thing, dependent on the
partner. So bisexuals in particular,
it's, it's one of those things where so much is tied to the
gender of the person that you're dating that I think a lot of
them are like, I'm really going to try and make this work
because I don't want to go back to the drawing board and have so
much anxiety and uncertainty about the even the gender or the
sects of the person that I'm going to end up with.
Like that is alarming. So it's always interesting to me
that people are, yeah, bisexuals can't trust and they'll cheat.
It's like, I think they're actually probably the most loyal
people you're going to meet just just for that.
Yeah. I also think it's.
Super interesting because you said a little bit earlier when
you were having that conversation with someone at a
party that you know, you're going to get to 30 and just
going to have to choose. But ultimately you can't choose,
right? Like that's that's the reality.
You are going to fall in love with whoever you fall in love
with and that's who you're going to end up with.
Like that. That feels like such a obvious
thing, but I feel like that's something people don't quite
understand is, you know, a bisexual can't person can't just
sit there and go, I'm going to when I'm 29, I'm going to start
dating a girl because I want to be in that style of
relationship. It's going to be who it's going
to be. Yeah, there's there's.
A lot of people that think that way and even some bisexuals that
probably think that. And I in my advice column and in
the book, I, I literally write something along the lines of,
OK, picture this. Then you're in a loving
relationship. Let's say it's with me.
So you're in a loving relationship with a man.
You've been together 2 years, you've bought a house and then
suddenly and your 32nd birthday, you know, an alarm goes off on
your phone and you say Oh my God, we've got to break up
because I told myself I'd be with some random female by the
time I'm 33, so goodbye. Should we get the box set like
that? That just doesn't happen in
life, you know what I mean? Like you meet people, everyone's
got something, you know? And it's not saying that if you
are opposite sex that you're both going to be able to have
kids anyway, you know what I mean?
And that's just one example of 1 issue.
But it's not, it's just not how life works.
You meet people, you fall in love, everyone's got some sort
of problem that you overcome together.
Maybe just be that they're annoying, whatever it is.
And that is the way things work. This idea that bisexuals have
game plans, I just don't know anyone that cold calculated or
that disciplined to actually go through with that.
After being with someone for a couple of years, I'm just going
to give up a really happy, healthy relationship in the
hopes of maybe meeting someone of a different gender that I can
do all this with. But there'll be a different
gender like that. People just don't talk like
that, No. And.
It is just kind of one of those random stigmas that still exist
that people do think that is this kind of perception.
I also think, and I think it was in my research, which sounds
creepier than it is, when I was kind of getting ready to record
this podcast as you talked about the how damaging it can be for
bisexual people to quote unquote, play it straight,
right? Because they can.
You could make the argument they could theoretically just choose,
well, I'm just going to be with people of the opposite agenda.
I'm never going to embrace my bisexuality.
How dangerous is that though? And how often?
I know you have your advice on how often is it from people who
have tried to suppress it for so long and then they get to a
point where they just can't anymore?
Well, you can't. So I'll I'll just answer this
with the most common question I get into my advice column.
Most common question I get into my advice column is from men in
a late 30s to early 50s, and it will go something along the
lines of I knew I was bisexual, but I fought it back down.
I did all the right straight things.
I got married, I've had three kids, we've got a nice chunky
mortgage. And now I'm waking up wondering,
does my wife love me or the straight character I've been
playing all these years? I've accepted all of this
nonsense from her over the years.
I don't know if she could accept this about me, but I don't want
to die thinking, Oh my God, the person that I am in it with, the
person I love the most might feel differently about me if she
knew this one thing and if she saw the real me.
That's a horrible place to be. Yeah, it is super interesting
and I think. You you were mentioned.
Obviously, your advice for Colin, but you also mentioned
your book Bisexuality, the basics.
I'm super curious to know kind of if that's the most common
question you get, what is what was kind of the inspiration for
writing the book? How did it come about?
And just kind of talk to me about the process of putting
that together. So the book.
So I've had an advice column for a couple of years, which is
called Ask a Bide ads because as a bisexual was taken, but by
someone that doesn't do it anymore.
So I did want to take the name because that person doesn't do
it anymore. But I was like, no, you know
what, I'm a dad. It probably gives you that sort
of older. It's like coming to your dad to
talk about things Anyhow, so and you went for dad rather than
daddy, which was. Which was smart, yeah.
I feel like I would have gotten different kinds of questions
about one for Daddy. So I have been writing that for
years. And then there was the publisher
and we we got talking about what a book would look like.
And I kind of wanted to do more of an academicy book, I guess of
just kind of going through section by section.
But we're talking about the advice column and they kind of
felt like like an advice, a question and answers.
Facebook might be really nice. It's nice and digestible.
And I quite liked the idea of it sort of brings everything I've
done into one place. One of the things that I think
that I am thinking about a lot now as I'm launching a new
podcast and doing stuff is like everything I've done over the
years has been scattered all around the place.
And rightfully so. It should have been that, you
know, I it's right that I go and speak to the people on GB News.
It's right that I go and speak to BBC.
It's right that I write for the Metro and the Daily Mail and try
and reach all different kinds of people because not everyone's
going to find you somewhere. But getting to do a book was
sort of bringing it all together under these questions and so
that was really nice. So it actually was sort of
unsexly a bit of an admin task. So I had to go through all of
the questions I'd ever been asked.
We didn't do it. So obviously the advice com is
real people. So you know, you have like Steve
from Scarborough said this. So we didn't put names on
anything. I just sort of generalised
questions because obviously you get questions that are all the
same, you know, they all fit in the same thing.
So you amalgamate. So I went through all of those.
I then and this was done the time before ChatGPT.
ChatGPT could have done this next step for me, which was So
what am I missing? Like what?
Have I never been right so. I had to do.
That and then write the answer to the questions.
And a lot of that is sort of you go back as well and say, well,
what did I say about this in, you know, 2017?
It's like, and you read what you say, you're like, I think my, my
thinking's changed a little bit actually.
So it was a bit of an admin task and then a bit of a creativity
task. What I was really getting into
the equity of the questions and also trying to make sure because
a lot of the times when you write articles and things like
that will have a be on, on the news.
Like you've either got a word count or there's a 3 minute
counter climbing day. You've got to summarise quick.
So actually being able to sort of really take my time and argue
different sides of it and give different examples was really
good. The only thing that wasn't in
the book that I wanted to put in, but it would have just maybe
gotten me in too much trouble. I wanted to do a section at the
back of the most common insults and questions bisexuals get and
then do a aggressive bisexual would say, you know, polite
bisexual would say, you know, bisexual that just wasn't going
to have the situation would say and give sort of three personas
so that people had somewhere to go.
Because the one thing I will say with bisexuality or by
ignorance, as I call it, so I don't like to call it biphobia.
It's not evolving. But please, if someone has a new
bisexual insult, like I could use the material, it's, you
know, it's not evolving. No, if someone came up with
something new that I hadn't heard before, I'd be, I'd be
like, I'd hug them and say like, Oh well, that you, you've given
me something fresh to work with. I'm going to get like 10 pieces
of content out of this. I'm joking.
Obviously I don't want new insults.
But you know, it's like actually you can prepare people quite
nicely because there's nothing people are going to say to a
bisexual that I haven't heard and prepared for.
And that's sort of what the book is about.
Because I think a lot of people that read it, some are bisexual,
obviously some are coming into their bisexual and it's
bisexuality. And it's been helpful for them
in the feedback I've had of like, Oh my God, I sort of knew
this was coming. I read your book and I thought,
Oh my God. And then it happened and I had
somewhere to go and I had some, some sort of reference.
Because I think one thing that's not really talked about on
bisexual issues is that it can be really lonely to be a
bisexual. We don't have these massive
communities like gay people seem to have.
And there's reasons for that. You know, if gay people didn't
meet other gay people, they were not going to fall in love or
have sex. Bisexual people, we do have more
options. We can date gay people, we can
date straight people, we can date other by people.
So there's never been that need to come together in that same
way. And you know, the sex driver is
a big driver of a lot of things. A lot of societies here because
people wanted to have sex. So with bisexuals, it's slightly
different with with why that community would come together.
But there are so many bisexuals that reach out to me and say, I
don't know any other bisexuals. I have no one to ask this
question to. And then what happens is you get
2 bisexuals in a room and they're so different.
You know, not to be prejudice myself, but a lot of gay men
have similar experiences. You can get bisexual people that
have never had sex with a woman, never had sex with a man, never
dated someone of certain genders thinks that their bisexuality is
fluid and they don't ever want to be in a relationship or
whatever other people are like, no, I'm a I'm a relationship
gal, you know what I mean? So it's it's so different.
So having a book is for me a way to just give, I give bisexual
people a point of reference and there is a section in the book
as well for non bisexual people because those I've had those
questions over the years as well.
So, you know, oh, my son's just come out as bisexual.
How do I handle this? But in a way, you know, and I'm
a mum that said, you know, he can't have any girls over for a
sleepover, but now he's bisexual.
Should I ban boys? It's like, so you're somebody
can never have anyone over for a sleepover because of his
sexuality. Does that seem fair to you?
And you know, so there are lots of issues like that that come
up. And I know that I said so my, my
most common question genuinely is from men that I guess have
identified as straight and they want to come out after decades.
The second most common question is sort of the reverse of that.
And it's bisexual men that came out and the world told them they
were gay. So they kind of said they were
gay. It was easier to say they were
gay or they went along with it, whatever.
And now they're saying I am bisexual.
I was never strong enough to say this before.
I just went with the gay label because that's it.
But I'm 27 years old. I've only ever had sex with men.
Everyone thinks I'm gay. I'm a bit camp.
What woman is going to take me seriously?
That's so interesting. Feeling that even.
Though they're attracted to women, just feeling like they're
so unattractive to women that you know, and that is that's a
horrible thing. Imagine if you were a gay man
and you felt like gay people would just not be attracted to
you. If you're a straight man and you
thought women are just not going to be attracted to me because of
who I am, that's a horrible place to be.
And I think you mentioned. Something was super important.
I think books like that are so critical for parents who might
have bisexual children to kind of read and understand kind of
their experience. And obviously, you've mentioned
the fact that you are a dad. How has being a dad influenced
your role in your media and your advocacy work, being so openly
bisexual? And were there any concerns, I
guess, about how that might impact the kids as they go
through school, for example? Yeah, a couple of things.
I mean, I, I would say with my approach, I mean, I've always
hopefully been a reasonable person and met people with
respect. And, you know, I think a lot of
activists or people inside of work can get really angry and
really just, you know. Feel that the world's against.
Them I've always kind of felt, you know, I will go and speak to
anyone. I don't care what their
political leanings are or what they've said before, because I
think that hopefully we can find some common ground.
I think that having kids is like, I want a better world for
them to grow up into. I haven't got time to be tribal
and say, well, you have no experience of bisexuality, so
you have no opinion on this. Look tough.
We, we share the world, like it or not, what straight people
think about us is important because it impacts the reactions
that bisexual people get. So we're going to have to deal
with it and, and have these conversations.
So I think it's kind of made me feel that I really want the kids
to grow up in a, in a world where this isn't an issue
anymore or not just my issue, but all of these social issues
that we, we didn't have a forward thinking society in that
sense. So I think that it probably puts
a bit of fire under there with regards to putting targets on
the kids back. So I have 3 kids.
So I have a three-year old, A5 year old and then I have a
stepson who is now 16. So when I started doing this, he
was a lot younger and in much of the same way that when I started
dating a girl. I realised it put a.
Target on her back, and this is before any of the media work,
but, you know, for example, she was in Manchester in a gay bar
and she got talking to these gay guys and she was like, oh, yeah,
my boyfriend's bisexual. And they were like, what?
That's disgusting. You're a straight girl.
You could date any old straight man.
Like it's so rare for a man to be attracted to men like he
should be with a guy. Like forbade of things that she
said, you know, people telling her he's going to cheat, you're
going to catch HIV, all of this stuff when I and you know, the
the reality for me there is that, oh, you wouldn't be having
this if you were dating a straight guy.
My sexuality has painted a bit of a target on your back, in the
same way that I don't think if you were two gay guys in a
relationship, if someone in that relationship experienced
homophobic abuse. That's obviously terrible and.
Wrong. But the other partner wouldn't
feel that I've caused it in the way that I felt that I caused it
because if you, you know, if she was a straight guy, that
wouldn't happen. So I was a little bit worried
about as I started doing more media work, that the kids at
school and my stepson's school would find out about it and
tease him. So I was a little worried about
that. Weirdly, they were like, you
know, when it actually did come up, he was like, oh, no, all the
kids at school think you're really cool because she had an
argument with Piers Morgan on TV.
So I'm like, OK. The one good thing Piers Morgan
can do so. It's like, OK, well, fine.
You know, I'm glad it's worked out that way.
And with the kid, the younger kids, I mean, they don't know
anything about sexuality and stuff.
I would say with regards to them, you know, I'm, you know,
as vain as the next person, you know, have I got the Attitude
magazine where I was on the cover framed?
Of course I have. So eventually, at some point,
they will say, daddy, what's that?
Why were you in a magazine? And I can explain and I think
just with regard to obviously having kids myself, it's, you
know, I would never assume that they're straight or gay.
You know, it's like they could be.
So I just, it's, it's, and it's not like I'm like some woke
parent being like, oh, my kids are just as it's like, no, I'm
just, it could be, who knows. And what was actually really
funny was I don't think he might be telling the story, but with
my 16 year old, and this was a few years ago, she's probably
about 14. He was in the kitchen and I said
something like, oh, are there any girls or guys at school that
you like? And he gave me an evil as he
does. And he was like, girls.
And I was like are. You coming out of the street.
And he just rolled his eyes at me and walked off and I was
like, I accept you for who you are.
Because you know, you know. I don't want to assume it.
And even if he is straight, you know, it's like actually, but
still, I want you to have a point of reference of of, you
know, telling your parent what your sexuality is and then being
cool with it, you know, because it's not a given for for some
people. So it, it is what it is.
And I think, yeah, so I don't assume the kids sexualities,
obviously, they're obviously free to be who they want to be.
And I think maybe even just, I think my parents are a bit weird
about sex talk. And so I hope to not be that way
in the sense I remember when I was a kid and my mom, like, even
if two people were kissing on the TV, she'd be like and cover
my eyes. And that then gave me a concept
that kissing was wrong. So I think that I'm probably
going to be a little bit more liberal with the sex talk,
whether it creeps them out or not, because I just don't want
them to, to think that sex is dirty or, or wrong and also make
sure that they can protect themselves no matter the gender
that they are with. Or they might be asexual and I
we have to worry about that, but whatever.
Yeah, and I think you just touched on something.
Which I think is really important and it comes up a lot.
It's just around representation. And obviously there can be
representation in media. There can be representation in
lots of different ways and it feels like in many ways there
are more positive bisexual representation today than there
have been in the past. You have people like Nick Nelson
on Hartstopper, which is a personal favourite of mine, Alex
Clement Diaz on red, white and Royal blue.
But I do notice that in the majority of cases, the bisexual
characters do end up with someone of the same gender and
therefore they, you know, in that representation.
I guess it's that's how it kind of plays out in those shows and
those films. Do you feel it is getting better
or and is that awareness having a positive impact?
And how do you deal with the fact that often that is the
journey of a bisexual character on ATV show or a movie?
It's them coming out by the ending up with someone of the
same gender. So it's interesting so.
First of all, I would say media representation is so important
and I understand that and I've spoken about this before, but
you know, media is not there to be an activist and to, you know,
insert diverse characters to meet some sort of quota because
I think that's unhealthy. But when media gets it wrong, it
can have profound impact. So I'm looking at you Sex and
the City where they obviously did that episode where she dated
a bye guy and there was all that stuff about, oh, it's just a
layer of runaway to gay town and ultimately didn't want to be
with him because he was bisexual.
And then in later series, some probably younger viewers don't
even know what I'm talking about.
But Samantha then dated a woman and she was lesbian for three
episodes and then was straight again.
And I think that those did real damage, especially at a time
where Sex in the City, I mean, you know, it's, we're still
talking about it now like 20-30 years later, was a real cultural
awakening for a lot of young women.
Really set the tone on what things were.
And because it was included in that way, I think set bisexual.
Acceptance. Especially by women back.
Decades. And, and if they'd have done
that right, and if even if the you know, the the bisexual
character, they'd have dated for a few episodes and it didn't
work out for another reason, I genuinely think more women would
be open to dating bisexual men because they would have a frame
of reference from this hugely popular show.
Because one of the things we haven't talked about, one of the
biggest issues for bisexual men is that the majority of women
say that they would not date a bisexual man.
And it goes much deeper. It's not just that they wouldn't
date a bisexual man, they would not date a man who has had any
form of sex with another man. And that is an issue because of
then a lot of bisexual men. And I've had people say this to
me, Lewis, there's already so many people that don't want to
date me. If I then come out as bi, the,
the number of women that are going to want to date is going
to go down to about 3 people. But I don't find attractive like
is coming out as bi, just coming out as gay by default because it
puts so many women off. And that's a huge issue that we
have to deal with. And I think that that media is
in a good position to deal with by celebrating bisexual men, not
from a quota point of view, not from a having some sort of
political agenda, but just by telling those stories.
If they end up with a man, fine. If they end up with a woman,
fine. If they end up single, fine.
And I, I, I don't have an issue with, you know, lots of those
bisexual characters ended up in opposite sex relationships
because that, you know, happens. I'd rather there just be more
bisexual stories so that you've got some that end up with men,
some that end up single rather than it does, you know, tend to
turn out they either get murdered, turn into a vampire or
end up in a straight relationship.
So I think that that is an issue.
And I think there's just so many interesting bisexual stories to
tell. And one of the things that I, I
was talking about on my other podcast, Bisexual Branch, we
never got around to doing this is we should come up with some
bisexual characters and bisexual storylines.
Like let's have a bisexual storyline where he falls in love
with a girl and her gay best friend.
And how does that all work out? You know, let's have, and I
think that someone was saying this to me recently.
It's like, it's obviously not a good thing to happen, but when
it happens, if it happens really publicly, that will solidify.
The bisexuality thing in so many eyes is that you need a famous
gay couple and you need the bisexual in it to cheat on him
with a girl. Not signing off on that.
Not saying it's going to be like, oh, he cheated on a guy
with a girl, but maybe having that in TV shows and stuff and
people that, you know, it's just questioning people's narrative
and making people say this isn't that weird, you know, and
they're not going to run off and cheat and they're not going to
do all this. I mean, in that situation they
would be. But but I think that media has
this incredible power. And that's what I hope, you
know, that I'm contributing to in a little way.
Obviously I'm not an actor and stuff, but being on TV, being on
podcasts, just helping people with that discovery of like, you
know, bisexuality is a thing. There's some issues that go
along with it. Nothing you can't navigate.
Just read my book and life will be good.
Yeah. It's super important though.
It's so important that people hear their stories told.
I think shows like the soap operas here in the UK definitely
have the opportunity to do that because they can tell
multifaceted stories. Often when movies, it's a single
arc and it has to end in one way or another, whereas TV shows can
definitely explore that a little bit more.
We started this conversation talking about you as a young
person, so I would love to revisit young Louis.
If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what
would it be? And would it be different if I
said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus person
today? What would I tell my?
Younger self. I probably tell my younger self,
and this is not my quote, it's someone else's.
I don't know who so I can't credit them, but it was.
It's something along the lines of what makes you weird as a
child is what will make you successful as an adult.
And I think I probably spent a bit of my childhood thinking
that I was a bit weird or didn't fit in.
And especially growing into the LGBT stuff, a feeling like, Oh
my God, I'm bisexual. That's going to be an issue.
Like, how am I going to tell my parents?
Like, what's my dating life going to be like?
Like, what does this mean? But actually, once you learn how
to lean into that stuff like look at me now, writing books,
do podcasts, like, you know, not even having the slightest bit of
anxiety about telling someone that I'm bisexual and actually
it being a plus and in some of the ways too outside of
sexuality, you know, some of my weird little hobbies and
interests, you know, might not be interested anymore.
But actually they taught me about.
What I use now in my life. Which is, you know, not giving
up. Not, you know, being
perfectionist, getting this right until it's absolutely
right and just being absolutely obsessed with something until
it's done was a transferable skill.
So, you know, I might not be doing whatever I did as a child
anymore, but now I actually am like using those transferable
skills and just kind of backing myself as well.
Was was quite important to to learn.
So I don't know if I answered the question there, but that's
my complicated thoughts. You did, and I do love.
That idea of, you know, the things that make you feel
different when you were younger are the things that will make
you stand out and be who you are as you get older.
Look, I appreciate you so much being on this podcast and
there's so much more to this sort of conversation.
And people can get that from things like your podcast
Generation Uncharted and of course, your book Bisexuality,
the Basics. But Lewis, thank you so much for
being on the podcast with me today.
Thank you so much for being our final guest of 2025, which is
incredibly exciting. And just thank you so much for
all your work and spreading such positive bisexual representation
for everyone. Thank you so much.
For having me, it's honestly been a delight to have this chat
together. We are strong and
bold.