1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:09,000 Why am I getting on this night bus to travel 40 minutes like 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,040 this? To go and sleep on my friend's 3 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:15,400 sofa for the night when there is a hot boy that I want to kiss 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,120 asking me to go home with him and I'm choosing to get on this 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,240 night bus because I said that I was straight. 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,240 When a bisexual person breaks up with someone, they're not just 7 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:27,560 breaking up with that person the way that a gay and a straight 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,240 person does. You are leaving that way of 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,120 life. I did all the right straight 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:34,920 things. I got married, I've had three 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,440 kids, we've got a nice chunky mortgage. 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,520 And now I'm waking up wondering, does my wife love me or the 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,680 straight character I've been playing all these years? 14 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,160 One of the biggest issues for bisexual men is that the 15 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,800 majority of women say that they would not date a bisexual man. 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,080 And it goes much deeper. It's not just that they wouldn't 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,640 date a bisexual man, they would not date a man who has had any 18 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,360 form of sex with another man. When it actually did come up, he 19 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,520 was like, Oh no, all the kids at school think you're really cool 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,600 because she had an argument with Piers Morgan on TV. 21 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,440 So like, OK. The one good thing Piers Morgan 22 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,800 can do. Hello and welcome back to the 23 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,320 Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories. 24 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,600 This is queer talker and I'm Ben Cicchetti. 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,240 This week I am joined by broadcaster, author of Oscar by 26 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,400 Dad and my fellow podcaster Lewis Oakley. 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,040 But before we get to that conversation, I've got a very 28 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,480 quick favour to ask. Wherever you are watching or 29 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,240 listening to this episode, hit that subscribe button. 30 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:36,840 It's one click and it's going to make a massive difference. 31 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,440 It's allowed me to grow this podcast and it's allowed me to 32 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,560 bring you the best and the Queerest episodes every single 33 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,720 time. So advance, thank you. 34 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,600 Now to my conversation with Lois. 35 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,960 Lois, we will start with our queer panic rapid fire set of 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,160 questions. You just respond with the first 37 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,160 thing that comes to mind, starting with what was the first 38 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,360 album you ever owned? I think it was hearsay for my 39 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,040 sins. Amazing. 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,640 There might be some people Googling hearsay at this point, 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,800 but I can say that show my. Age show my age. 42 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,480 If you had to lip sync for your life, what song would you 43 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,680 choose? You know what, Halloween is 44 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,920 still in my head, so I think it would be from Hocus Pocus. 45 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:26,600 I put a spell on you because I wouldn't do it justice, but I'd 46 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,600 enjoy doing it. Yeah, and it'd be a vibe. 47 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,480 So I'm all for a vibe. Who was a childhood celebrity 48 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,760 crush of yours? Like probably like Mildred 49 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,600 Hubble from The Worst Witch. That's so random. 50 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,200 Right. That's amazing. 51 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,880 What? Is your biggest theme happening 52 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,480 already? That's a witchy theme for sure 53 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,320 coming through. What is your biggest red flag? 54 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,840 People trying to convince me that they're nice or good 55 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,920 people. Yeah, I can feel that. 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,320 I can feel. To try and convince me of that 57 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,760 it should be obvious. Yeah, there you go. 58 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:09,600 Actions speak out louder than words. 59 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,680 What is your favourite queer movie or TV show? 60 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,720 OK, I'm going to get in trouble with this, but Lucifer, because 61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,480 Lucifer is bisexual, it is confirmed. 62 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:26,120 And it was quite nice to have a bisexual man that was suave, a 63 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,200 little bit problematic, bit naughty and cheeky and just 64 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,160 having fun with it. Obviously it would have been 65 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,880 great if you'd have said the word bisexual in those five 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,760 seasons, but we take what we can get in the bisexual community. 67 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,320 Hey, that's great. I love that show. 68 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,800 It's a great show. Who is one person you would like 69 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,040 to hear on this podcast? I would love to hear Spencer 70 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:51,720 Cooper who runs Love Queers. They are incredible. 71 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,960 I know them personally. I always feel like they don't 72 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,080 get the the recognition they deserve. 73 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,960 Such a genuinely good person and really loves this community and 74 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,560 does everything they can to really celebrate people. 75 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,560 I think that's great. I love that. 76 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,720 We will definitely reach out and try and get them on the podcast. 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,800 That sounds fantastic. And final of our quick panic 78 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,400 questions, What is one word you would use to describe your 79 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,320 childhood? Fun. 80 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,080 OK, I like that. I like that. 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,360 Well, we've warmed up. I feel like we've got to know 82 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,400 you a little bit better. I got a little bit of insight 83 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,480 into your witchy ways. So let's get a bit deeper. 84 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,440 And you said fun. And I have this theory that to 85 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,760 understand an LGBTQ plus person as an adult, you do first need 86 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,840 to understand them as a young person. 87 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:44,200 So what should I know about you as a child or a teenager to 88 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,720 understand the Lewis that sits in front of me today? 89 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Well, like everyone, my childhood wasn't crazily, you 90 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,800 know, fun and just rainbows and ponies. 91 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,520 But I look back fondly. I can look back on my childhood 92 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:03,280 and despite there being issues, enjoy it and be grateful. 93 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:07,920 And I had such a important relationship with all of my 94 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,280 grandparents, in particular two of my nans and my great auntie. 95 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:17,000 If I can't miss her out, that just, I think really set me up 96 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,440 for life and just kind of like take no notice and just having 97 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,720 kind of like funny phrases to go to when life is hard of being 98 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,440 like, oh God, well we have to just put up with it then or 99 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,560 what, you know, it's like actually having that kind of 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,360 base of seeing people deal with stuff but still be funny and 101 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,160 still put family at the heart of things was really important to 102 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,840 me. Like so many other bisexuals, I 103 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:45,160 did not realise I was bisexual until a lot later. 104 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,440 I think I was 19. So it's actually sort of when I 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,120 moved to London and was around all these gays and it looked fun 106 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,000 so. So I didn't really realise. 107 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,320 So that was quite interesting. So I think a lot of people deal 108 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,680 with the coming out thing in the realisation a lot, a lot 109 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,360 earlier, whereas I just kind of assumed, like every other guy, I 110 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,600 was straight. It's only when I sort of look 111 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,640 back now, I'm like, you were so clearly bisexual, like how could 112 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,280 you not have understood that? But it just wasn't in my 113 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,560 wheelhouse of things to know about. 114 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,720 So, you know, the whole fact that I had a paper round and I 115 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,280 would always linger on this one street and just hope that this 116 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,640 one boy would come out so that I could like wave to him and say 117 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,240 hello. No, I just thought I wanted to 118 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,720 be his friend at the same at school. 119 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,600 It's like I didn't realise, you know, that I wanted to kiss the 120 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,680 the boys that I wanted to hang out. 121 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,360 I just thought I wanted to hang out with them because they were 122 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,920 fun and cool. I wanted them to be my friend 123 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,080 and to like me. Really. 124 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,960 I probably just wanted to kiss him and didn't care too much 125 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,160 about his personality actually. That's fair. 126 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,440 And I think it's interesting, right, because it talks to you 127 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,680 mentioned Lucifer and you mentioned the fact that, you 128 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,320 know, whilst it was clear he was bisexual, he never actually said 129 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,280 the words bisexual. And it talks to the importance 130 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:57,600 of kind of that representation and seeing yourself reflected. 131 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,840 Do you remember the first LGBTQ plus or I guess specifically 132 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:05,280 bisexual person you became aware of either in real life or 133 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,760 through media? Well, let's say first LGBT 134 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,440 person. So like my first day at uni, 135 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,280 there was a guy there that was on my courses and we just became 136 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,680 friends quite quickly. And he was, I think he was 137 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,120 identifying as bisexual at the time. 138 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,600 He later came out as gay, but then he was like, oh, you should 139 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,920 come out with us. And so I was like, oh OK, I'll 140 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,680 come out of you guys. And obviously only ever went to 141 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,960 gay clubs and stuff. And so that was weird to me as a 142 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:39,600 straight guy, like going to gay clubs for the first time and you 143 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,760 know, just just having my eyes opened. 144 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,440 It was, I know it sounds weird. It was not that I ever kind of 145 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,280 was like, oh, maybe I'm gay or bi and had an issue with. 146 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,720 It was just honestly something that never really occurred to 147 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,800 me. And so getting that kind of 148 00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:00,920 experience and seeing all of these happy gay people dancing 149 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,120 and I mean, kids today going to gay clubs. 150 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,000 I mean, you don't know what it was like in the early like 151 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,600 teenies, like we, we partied really well. 152 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,920 I mean, we used to go to this bar called Quilly Out. 153 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,760 It's not even there anymore. It's been gentrified. 154 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,920 And I think it's like some pop up clothing store now. 155 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,720 But back in the day you could get 99 P shots and £1.40 mixers 156 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,920 and the security guard would let you dance on his shoulders and 157 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,840 it was a great. Time we missed those days. 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,039 So when do you think obviously, you know, going to those gay 159 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:36,320 clubs for the first time and other than your kind of your 160 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,880 paper route and that kind of spark of maybe knowing you 161 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,760 wanted to wave at that boy, when do you think you did first feel 162 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,320 that kind of inner queerness? And do you remember kind of that 163 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,560 feeling of how and how you kind of reacted to it? 164 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,440 Yeah, so it was my first ever Pride in London. 165 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,400 So it was that first year of uni. 166 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,920 And so I've been going to these gay clubs and meeting people and 167 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,840 realising I think he's hot and everyone is kissing all these 168 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,280 hot boys. I'm the only one here not 169 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,200 kissing hot boys. Why? 170 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,440 And so I've kind of been like, I'd say I was sort of saying 171 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,120 that I was by curious. I don't remember I'd said that 172 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,840 to anyone at the time, but at least in my head I knew that 173 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,080 like, it seemed like something I really wanted to do for some 174 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,120 reason. And it was sort of the night 175 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,360 that we went out sort of before Pride. 176 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,000 So it's a few days before Pride. And there was a really cute boy 177 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,120 there and I think I got his number or something like that. 178 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:39,840 And then he was like, I'll see you at Pride. 179 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,000 And I was like, OK, still kind of thinking, well, I'm straight, 180 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,880 but you know, what happens while I'm drinking? 181 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,560 You get like, you know, it was kind of like, I wasn't even sure 182 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:52,120 what I was thinking myself, but I knew he was hot. 183 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,880 Anyway, we met up at Pride and we had like, some of those 184 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,120 alcoholic slush puppies. I really liked him. 185 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:00,640 I really thought he was really hot. 186 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,520 And then I remember it's sort of the end of the night and it was 187 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,520 like, time to go home. And he said to me, come back to 188 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,680 mine and I was like, oh, I'm not gay. 189 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:13,400 But I do think you're really good looking though. 190 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,440 But yeah, it's it's not really for me. 191 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:21,960 And I remember getting on the night bus, which in those days 192 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,120 like they were single Decker, but they were sort of like 2 193 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,160 buses pulled together and they have them anymore. 194 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,920 And it was pride and it was rammed and people were smoking 195 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,600 weed on the bus and me and my friend literally were like face 196 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,440 to face. And I was just like why am I 197 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,280 getting on this night bus to travel 40 minutes like this to 198 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,000 go and sleep on my friend's sofa for the night when there is a 199 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,400 hot boy that I want to kiss asking me to go home with him. 200 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,040 And I'm choosing to get on this night bus because I said that I 201 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,880 was straight and I literally looked my friend in the eye and 202 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:58,000 I was like, bye and press the stop button and got off words to 203 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,160 live by after then and went home with him. 204 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,360 So that was it. And one thing I should say about 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,800 that story, though, was in in the actual daytime, you know, 206 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,640 kind of walking around central London. 207 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,360 And I remember so clearly being in Trafalgar Square and they 208 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,360 actually had bicurious stickers and just kind of feeling the 209 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,400 sort of strength of everyone there being like this many 210 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,480 people can't be wrong. Like, why would I feel ashamed 211 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:27,480 of being part of this? Not that I did feel ashamed, but 212 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,960 maybe just kind of like, oh, like, you know, on edge about 213 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,640 something that you haven't explored before. 214 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,440 And just being surrounded by that many people that were 215 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:40,400 happy, like fun to be around, like living their lives enjoying 216 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,520 themselves, just being like, Oh my God, like if anyone has a 217 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,240 part a problem with this, like you are missing out one hell of 218 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,520 a party. Like what are we talking about? 219 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,800 So I think that having that in the daytime of just being around 220 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,240 all that energy gave me the confidence to take the boy home. 221 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,880 Wow, I mean so say probably. Clearly he was a man. 222 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,520 We were a man, yes. Let's clarify that. 223 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,080 I guess from that first kind of like by moment where you're 224 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,320 like, I'm going, I'm going to explore this. 225 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,000 When do you think you then first felt authentically yourself and 226 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,200 when did you feel you could then just kind of be authentic in any 227 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,240 in everything that you do? I think it was probably publicly 228 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,840 coming out as bisexual because I'd really struggled over the 229 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,400 years with am I gay now? No, I'm not gay. 230 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Oh, I'm bi. People being like, well, there's 231 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,680 no such thing, so tough luck. You're either gay or straight. 232 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,200 Having to sort of deal with that and sort of coming through the 233 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,280 other side where it's like, you know, you're sort of nervous 234 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,280 when you're not straight and then when you realise you're 235 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:44,920 bisexual, you're even more nervous. 236 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,800 It's like, well, two communities are going to take the Mick out 237 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,440 of me now. So then getting to a point where 238 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,280 I was not. So I'd say one of the pinnacle 239 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,920 moments I remember so clearly was one of my boyfriends. 240 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,240 I dated a guy for a few years, which then even complicated 241 00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,800 things. It's like, I'm bi but I'm dating 242 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,280 a guy. And I'm sure we'll get on to 243 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,240 that. But one of his friends said to 244 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,840 me, you don't get any 30 year old bisexuals, do you? 245 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,720 So you'll have to pick what eventually. 246 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,520 And I remember being so unconfident in myself and my 247 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,240 sexuality at the time that I said, yeah, I guess it pays me 248 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,840 to this day that I said that. Coming through the other side 249 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,240 where I actually, how I started doing, what I was doing was that 250 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,680 I went to a friend's birthday party and there was a guy that, 251 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,600 you know, you go to birthdays parties, you meet friends of 252 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,040 friends. And I was speaking to this guy 253 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,120 and he was like, are you single? I was like, no, I'm dating 254 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,360 someone. She's this really great girl. 255 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,280 And he was like, go, oh, honey, you're gayer than me. 256 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,440 And then proceeded to then RIP into bisexuality for a minute. 257 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,160 And by that point I was actually strong, confident in myself, 258 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,000 confident in bisexuality. And I went to town on him and 259 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,360 was just like threw everything at him. 260 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,680 And he was like, he actually, to be fair to him, was it was an 261 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:00,320 argument. It was more of a monologue. 262 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,720 And he was really quiet for it. And then he turned to me and was 263 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,520 like, that's really good. You make really good arguments, 264 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,720 like you should do something with this, like you should write 265 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,960 something. And then he basically was like, 266 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,320 I've got this website. You could write this thing. 267 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,240 Like it'd be interesting to hear from Someone Like You. 268 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,240 I was like, OK, I don't know how to send out to I'm writing 269 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,560 something. So my first article I wrote like 270 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,560 pretty, you know, tipsy on the tube on the way home on my notes 271 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,520 app. Obviously checked it the next 272 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,000 morning and sent it and then everything sort of grew from 273 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,160 there. And I think that doing that made 274 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,440 me feel authentic. It was like, it's not just that 275 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,720 I have made peace with this myself. 276 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,280 I actually have the strength now and the belief to try and do my 277 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,240 best to make sure no one else feels like I did, that this is 278 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,920 an issue. And to go out and have arguments 279 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,240 with people that have a problem with it, like I'm up for it. 280 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,240 And that has felt to me what's made me authentic. 281 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,960 It wasn't just accepting, it was that I had to go out and say, 282 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,360 right, who's got a problem? Who is it? 283 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:00,360 You? What's your problem? 284 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,160 Come on man. Yeah, yeah, it's super 285 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,600 interesting that you touch on a couple of things that I find 286 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,040 fascinating whenever I speak to either friends or bisexual or 287 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,840 other bisexual people on this podcast. 288 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,640 Is there used to be kind of this phrase that kind of did the 289 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,640 rounds, which was by now gay later, and I think it came from, 290 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,000 and my suspicion is, and you'll correct me I'm sure if I'm 291 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,160 wrong, is it came from the fact that people like me, gay men 292 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,960 would use kind of bisexuality as their litmus test for coming out 293 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,000 right? They would say, well, I'm by to 294 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,480 kind of, I guess try and make people more comfortable with it 295 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,000 and then later come out as gay, but they will probably never 296 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,000 actually bisexual. That clearly, I assume, did real 297 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600 damage to how people perceive bisexuality though, right? 298 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,760 They see it as almost like a stepping stone to one or the 299 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,960 other. How do you think we can? 300 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,200 Do you think, first of all, do you think kind of my analysis of 301 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,720 it is correct, but then also how do you think we can untangle 302 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,320 that legacy and kind of empower bisexual people in the way that 303 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,560 you're clearly trying to? Yeah, it's interesting. 304 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,440 It's a very multifaceted issue, but it is one of the biggest 305 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,680 issues I think bisexual people face because you're absolutely 306 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,080 right. A lot of gay men historically 307 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,840 would say that they would buy sort of check the waters and 308 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,960 then come out as gay. And there's research on that. 309 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,160 I think it is something crazy, like I think it's something like 310 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,880 80% of gay men do that. But what's more surprising is 311 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,640 that most of them know they're not actually bisexual at the 312 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,640 time that they know that they're gay and they're just either 313 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,560 struggling with that themselves or just really just testing the 314 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,360 waters. And it does real damage. 315 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,040 Now, I've given this a lot of thought over the years, as you 316 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,080 would have thought. So #1 is that we cannot judge 317 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,040 anyone's coming out journey. Coming out is really hard. 318 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,480 And whatever you need to do to ease the path is just what had 319 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,000 to happen. You know what I'm saying? 320 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,800 So I'm not there kind of saying like you gaze, look at what 321 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,120 you've done, like you've caused all this stigma. 322 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,640 But. It's all our fault. 323 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,720 But what I really take issue with is gay men that do that and 324 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,880 then only see sexuality for their own experience and then 325 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,839 will say, oh, bisexual, yeah, I used to be that. 326 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:12,200 Eventually you'll come out as gay. 327 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,680 It's like, no, no, you actually did some reputational damage. 328 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,680 We forget about that. We talked that up to coming out. 329 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,920 It is what it is, but you don't have any authority or right to 330 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,520 then go around assuming that everyone is doing what you did. 331 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,960 For some people, bisexuality is just what they are. 332 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,880 It's not a coming out vehicle like it was for you. 333 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,640 So that is sort of one thing that we need to get clear in in 334 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,360 the heads of a lot of people particularly like this issue 335 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,960 runs really deep because if we look at the LGBT, the majority 336 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,400 of people in the LGBT are bisexual. 337 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,200 Like numbers wise, we're about 52% of the LGB. 338 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:56,680 If the bit that looks at sexuality, 52%, yet we receive 339 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,520 depending on what report you're looking at. 340 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,600 And there's been all the reports we receive about 1% of annual 341 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,680 LGBT funding. So we're part of this movement 342 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,160 and group and all of these organisations that say that 343 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,360 they're safeguarding us, but we get the minimal amount of 344 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,560 monetary input. And that means people are less 345 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,640 likely to be looking at the issues bisexuals are dealing 346 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,600 with, certainly not looking at the solutions for them, 347 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,080 certainly not thinking we need an awareness campaign or 348 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,400 whatever it is or whatever, whatever those things are, it's 349 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,920 not being done. And that is a big issue. 350 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,120 And a lot of that comes down to a lot of LGBT groups that are 351 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:36,040 run by gay men think, oh, what a bisexual spare doesn't really 352 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,600 matter a real thing. So it does like it does run 353 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,280 deep. It's not just about attitudes on 354 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,600 the street. It's it's it's a whole wider 355 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,680 issue. My hope is that as things are 356 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,440 progressing, I think that now people probably are more 357 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,320 confident to just come out as gay, that we've done a lot of 358 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,640 work there to get rid of that stigma so that maybe you're not 359 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,160 getting as many people using it as that bisexuality as that 360 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,440 vehicle as they did maybe historically. 361 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,880 So maybe just naturally over time that might come out. 362 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,320 I do take a lot of issue with celebrities that come out as 363 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,480 bisexual thing come out as gay. Number one, you you've chosen to 364 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,120 come to the public with this. So I'm allowed to have an 365 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,360 opinion in a way that I probably wouldn't have an opinion with 366 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:22,800 just Joe next door. But I have been in that 367 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,400 situation where bisexuals because of what I do, will come 368 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,240 to me and say, Oh my God, isn't it great that I'm not going to 369 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,480 go off on aid celebrity here, but I insert celebrity name has 370 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,800 come out as bisexual. It makes me feel so great that 371 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,440 we've got, you know, an Olympian or a swimmer. 372 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,760 That's like raising the flag for us that more people are going 373 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,680 to. Then a few years later when they 374 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,080 come out as gay, suddenly they went from being this inspiration 375 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,640 to their they're an example to beat you with. 376 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,440 I definitely have had a lot of people that like, Oh my God, Now 377 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,920 when I'm saying bisexual, they're like, oh, like the 378 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,120 insert celebrity name was from this show. 379 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,960 Yeah, that lasted long, didn't it? 380 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,760 And that causes real damage. And fair enough to them if that 381 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,080 is their journey that they've been on. 382 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,840 But you have to as a public figure, then come back out and 383 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,760 say, look, it turns out bisexuality wasn't for me. 384 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,920 Obviously it's a valid, you know, you have to come back and 385 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,600 do that because you you do too much damage otherwise to almost 386 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,080 the reputation of bisexuality. And look, there's a lot of other 387 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,720 things. To this situation, but I don't 388 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,760 want to understate how much bisexuals not being taken 389 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,040 seriously impacts things. It impacts our mental health, it 390 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,520 impacts literally the funding and the attention and care that 391 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,880 people that have put themselves in charge of our care like LGBT 392 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,720 organisations give us. But it's very multifaceted. 393 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,840 And that's why it feels for a lot of bisexuals, like things 394 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,160 just have not really moved on that it's still this issue of 395 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,200 like, you know, Can you imagine if like, as gay men, it was 396 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,720 like, oh, our biggest issue is no one believes that, that, that 397 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,360 it's a thing. It's just you just hope that can 398 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,600 we get there's so much more to do and and to fix. 399 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,280 Like, can we not just get past that first hurdle? 400 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,920 Yeah, it's a real thing. My God. 401 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,040 Yeah, I agree. I think I think it's an 402 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,120 incredible challenge. I think there is a lot to kind 403 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:10,160 of unpick about how society and even like the LGBTQ plus 404 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,320 community itself has treated by sexual people. 405 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,600 One of the things I often hear is a real challenge is that when 406 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:19,760 a bisexual person is in a relationship with someone of a 407 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,440 different gender, they are considered gay. 408 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,480 When they're straight, sorry. When they're in a relationship 409 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,680 with someone of the same gender, they are just considered gay or 410 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,800 lesbian. How do you in yourself and as a 411 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,480 community, how do we navigate that kind of self erasure? 412 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,720 And then how? Do you you? 413 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,760 And other bisexual people kind of hold onto that inner 414 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,120 queerness no matter who they're dating. 415 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,480 Yeah, it's really hard. I mean. 416 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,640 So where to start with this? Easy question, yes. 417 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,400 It's really hard like, like people if they didn't know who I 418 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,400 was, people that look at me in the street would see me with 419 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,000 three kids and a female partner and say there's another straight 420 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,400 guy. So it's very hard because in the 421 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,160 same way that, you know, if a gay couple walk past holding 422 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,000 hands, people say, oh, it's a gay couple. 423 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,760 So you're getting that day-to-day representation. 424 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,200 People are seeing it very hard to see bisexuality unless I'm 425 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,160 going to have a threesome on the street, which I'm not going to 426 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:25,160 do again, Nigel. So for me it it is an issue. 427 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,160 And I think for bisexuals, what I tell them when they're in this 428 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,880 situation is you have to be visible in a way that's 429 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,360 comfortable for you. So if it is that you want to 430 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,560 have the bisexual colours of love hearts on your social media 431 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,080 bio, fine. You know, there's one guy I know 432 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,040 that's like, oh, I've, I'm writing comic books. 433 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,320 So I'm putting bisexual characters into my comic books 434 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,800 for the representation and that kind of thing. 435 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,880 Obviously there are motormales like me. 436 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,640 They'll be like, well, I'll do a podcast, I'll do a book. 437 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,520 I'll do, you know, I'll just keep talking about it. 438 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,360 Even I have like T-shirts with just bisexual on just in case 439 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,520 I'm like up for just in case anyone's not curious, going to 440 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,440 going to parents evening and making a statement. 441 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,800 So everyone has to do what they're comfortable with it. 442 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,400 It's hard and look, we are a visual species and that that 443 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,480 happens. And I think I was talking about 444 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,160 this on I think it was art. So I've just launched a YouTube 445 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,920 series myself called Bisective and I think I was talking about 446 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:26,880 it on this which is that the. There's this. 447 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,520 Stigma, I guess that bisexual people, you know that oh they've 448 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,200 got such a sexual appetite you just can't quench it That's why 449 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,600 you should never date a bisexual because they're obviously going 450 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,880 to cheat. I actually think the reverse is 451 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,040 true. And there is data to suggest 452 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,760 that bisexual people are more likely to experience violence in 453 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,600 a relationship. And I believe it's because 454 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,520 bisexual people stay in relationships that have become 455 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,320 toxic for too long. And the reason I think that that 456 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,840 is the case from years of having an advice column where I speak 457 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,360 directly to bisexual people is because when a bisexual person 458 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:06,320 breaks up with someone, they're not just breaking up with that 459 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,440 person the way that they gain a straight person does. 460 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,240 You are leaving that way of life. 461 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,640 So you are losing your connection to the queer 462 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,880 community in some cases, if you go from dating someone of the 463 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,160 same gender to someone else, that, that, that, that 464 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,880 connection can be gone. And then suddenly you are like 465 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,760 me doing the school run and stuff and being like, I haven't 466 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:34,200 seen an LGBT person in weeks. And you know, the reverse is 467 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,840 true as well. So you, you might be in a 468 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,840 relationship and be like, you know what, I really want kids. 469 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,640 And we actually, we don't have to go through surrogacy or 470 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,680 adoption. It's going to be so much easier 471 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,600 this way. Like I, you know, you lose all 472 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,800 of that. So you're happy as you know, 473 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,320 even the holidays you can take in countries you can go to in 474 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,760 the world. So much of that is dependent on 475 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,280 the person you're with. Whereas, you know, a gay man 476 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,120 might say, look, I know I'm never going to be able to have a 477 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,000 biological child with the person they end up with. 478 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,000 Although hold out because there there is some interesting 479 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,920 scientific news on that. But you know, they've kind of 480 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,360 factored that in and it's not dependent on the partner. 481 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,240 That's always going to be the same thing, dependent on the 482 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,640 partner. So bisexuals in particular, 483 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,000 it's, it's one of those things where so much is tied to the 484 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,880 gender of the person that you're dating that I think a lot of 485 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,080 them are like, I'm really going to try and make this work 486 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,280 because I don't want to go back to the drawing board and have so 487 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,480 much anxiety and uncertainty about the even the gender or the 488 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,240 sects of the person that I'm going to end up with. 489 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280 Like that is alarming. So it's always interesting to me 490 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,240 that people are, yeah, bisexuals can't trust and they'll cheat. 491 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,680 It's like, I think they're actually probably the most loyal 492 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,840 people you're going to meet just just for that. 493 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:43,560 Yeah. I also think it's. 494 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,360 Super interesting because you said a little bit earlier when 495 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:47,800 you were having that conversation with someone at a 496 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,000 party that you know, you're going to get to 30 and just 497 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,880 going to have to choose. But ultimately you can't choose, 498 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,320 right? Like that's that's the reality. 499 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,600 You are going to fall in love with whoever you fall in love 500 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,320 with and that's who you're going to end up with. 501 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,200 Like that. That feels like such a obvious 502 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,000 thing, but I feel like that's something people don't quite 503 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,640 understand is, you know, a bisexual can't person can't just 504 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,080 sit there and go, I'm going to when I'm 29, I'm going to start 505 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,560 dating a girl because I want to be in that style of 506 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,960 relationship. It's going to be who it's going 507 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,600 to be. Yeah, there's there's. 508 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,120 A lot of people that think that way and even some bisexuals that 509 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,800 probably think that. And I in my advice column and in 510 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,080 the book, I, I literally write something along the lines of, 511 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,480 OK, picture this. Then you're in a loving 512 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,680 relationship. Let's say it's with me. 513 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,560 So you're in a loving relationship with a man. 514 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,840 You've been together 2 years, you've bought a house and then 515 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,040 suddenly and your 32nd birthday, you know, an alarm goes off on 516 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,360 your phone and you say Oh my God, we've got to break up 517 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,280 because I told myself I'd be with some random female by the 518 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,640 time I'm 33, so goodbye. Should we get the box set like 519 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,760 that? That just doesn't happen in 520 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,880 life, you know what I mean? Like you meet people, everyone's 521 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,080 got something, you know? And it's not saying that if you 522 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,240 are opposite sex that you're both going to be able to have 523 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,240 kids anyway, you know what I mean? 524 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,400 And that's just one example of 1 issue. 525 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,920 But it's not, it's just not how life works. 526 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,680 You meet people, you fall in love, everyone's got some sort 527 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,920 of problem that you overcome together. 528 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,680 Maybe just be that they're annoying, whatever it is. 529 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,000 And that is the way things work. This idea that bisexuals have 530 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,800 game plans, I just don't know anyone that cold calculated or 531 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,600 that disciplined to actually go through with that. 532 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,600 After being with someone for a couple of years, I'm just going 533 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,360 to give up a really happy, healthy relationship in the 534 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,680 hopes of maybe meeting someone of a different gender that I can 535 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,640 do all this with. But there'll be a different 536 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,720 gender like that. People just don't talk like 537 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,360 that, No. And. 538 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:41,160 It is just kind of one of those random stigmas that still exist 539 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,320 that people do think that is this kind of perception. 540 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,480 I also think, and I think it was in my research, which sounds 541 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,840 creepier than it is, when I was kind of getting ready to record 542 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,600 this podcast as you talked about the how damaging it can be for 543 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,080 bisexual people to quote unquote, play it straight, 544 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,200 right? Because they can. 545 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,560 You could make the argument they could theoretically just choose, 546 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560 well, I'm just going to be with people of the opposite agenda. 547 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,160 I'm never going to embrace my bisexuality. 548 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,160 How dangerous is that though? And how often? 549 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960 I know you have your advice on how often is it from people who 550 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,360 have tried to suppress it for so long and then they get to a 551 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:15,960 point where they just can't anymore? 552 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,880 Well, you can't. So I'll I'll just answer this 553 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,680 with the most common question I get into my advice column. 554 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,680 Most common question I get into my advice column is from men in 555 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,240 a late 30s to early 50s, and it will go something along the 556 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,440 lines of I knew I was bisexual, but I fought it back down. 557 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,680 I did all the right straight things. 558 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,880 I got married, I've had three kids, we've got a nice chunky 559 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,040 mortgage. And now I'm waking up wondering, 560 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,720 does my wife love me or the straight character I've been 561 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,560 playing all these years? I've accepted all of this 562 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,440 nonsense from her over the years. 563 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,800 I don't know if she could accept this about me, but I don't want 564 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,360 to die thinking, Oh my God, the person that I am in it with, the 565 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,200 person I love the most might feel differently about me if she 566 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,240 knew this one thing and if she saw the real me. 567 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,160 That's a horrible place to be. Yeah, it is super interesting 568 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,960 and I think. You you were mentioned. 569 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,560 Obviously, your advice for Colin, but you also mentioned 570 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,200 your book Bisexuality, the basics. 571 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,400 I'm super curious to know kind of if that's the most common 572 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,000 question you get, what is what was kind of the inspiration for 573 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,960 writing the book? How did it come about? 574 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,840 And just kind of talk to me about the process of putting 575 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,440 that together. So the book. 576 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,680 So I've had an advice column for a couple of years, which is 577 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,840 called Ask a Bide ads because as a bisexual was taken, but by 578 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,040 someone that doesn't do it anymore. 579 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,440 So I did want to take the name because that person doesn't do 580 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,680 it anymore. But I was like, no, you know 581 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,840 what, I'm a dad. It probably gives you that sort 582 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,440 of older. It's like coming to your dad to 583 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,600 talk about things Anyhow, so and you went for dad rather than 584 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,680 daddy, which was. Which was smart, yeah. 585 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,680 I feel like I would have gotten different kinds of questions 586 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,560 about one for Daddy. So I have been writing that for 587 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,600 years. And then there was the publisher 588 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,600 and we we got talking about what a book would look like. 589 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,680 And I kind of wanted to do more of an academicy book, I guess of 590 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,360 just kind of going through section by section. 591 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,680 But we're talking about the advice column and they kind of 592 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,120 felt like like an advice, a question and answers. 593 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,920 Facebook might be really nice. It's nice and digestible. 594 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,240 And I quite liked the idea of it sort of brings everything I've 595 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,680 done into one place. One of the things that I think 596 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,560 that I am thinking about a lot now as I'm launching a new 597 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,240 podcast and doing stuff is like everything I've done over the 598 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,120 years has been scattered all around the place. 599 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,200 And rightfully so. It should have been that, you 600 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,800 know, I it's right that I go and speak to the people on GB News. 601 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,560 It's right that I go and speak to BBC. 602 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,080 It's right that I write for the Metro and the Daily Mail and try 603 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,400 and reach all different kinds of people because not everyone's 604 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,480 going to find you somewhere. But getting to do a book was 605 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,480 sort of bringing it all together under these questions and so 606 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,920 that was really nice. So it actually was sort of 607 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,960 unsexly a bit of an admin task. So I had to go through all of 608 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,800 the questions I'd ever been asked. 609 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,320 We didn't do it. So obviously the advice com is 610 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,320 real people. So you know, you have like Steve 611 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,640 from Scarborough said this. So we didn't put names on 612 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,720 anything. I just sort of generalised 613 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,320 questions because obviously you get questions that are all the 614 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,040 same, you know, they all fit in the same thing. 615 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,720 So you amalgamate. So I went through all of those. 616 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,840 I then and this was done the time before ChatGPT. 617 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,800 ChatGPT could have done this next step for me, which was So 618 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,040 what am I missing? Like what? 619 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,640 Have I never been right so. I had to do. 620 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,200 That and then write the answer to the questions. 621 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,800 And a lot of that is sort of you go back as well and say, well, 622 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,000 what did I say about this in, you know, 2017? 623 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,200 It's like, and you read what you say, you're like, I think my, my 624 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,680 thinking's changed a little bit actually. 625 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,200 So it was a bit of an admin task and then a bit of a creativity 626 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,440 task. What I was really getting into 627 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,280 the equity of the questions and also trying to make sure because 628 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,480 a lot of the times when you write articles and things like 629 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,400 that will have a be on, on the news. 630 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,200 Like you've either got a word count or there's a 3 minute 631 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,120 counter climbing day. You've got to summarise quick. 632 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:14,440 So actually being able to sort of really take my time and argue 633 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,600 different sides of it and give different examples was really 634 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,000 good. The only thing that wasn't in 635 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,640 the book that I wanted to put in, but it would have just maybe 636 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,320 gotten me in too much trouble. I wanted to do a section at the 637 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,120 back of the most common insults and questions bisexuals get and 638 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,760 then do a aggressive bisexual would say, you know, polite 639 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,760 bisexual would say, you know, bisexual that just wasn't going 640 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,400 to have the situation would say and give sort of three personas 641 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,160 so that people had somewhere to go. 642 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,640 Because the one thing I will say with bisexuality or by 643 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,720 ignorance, as I call it, so I don't like to call it biphobia. 644 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,680 It's not evolving. But please, if someone has a new 645 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,920 bisexual insult, like I could use the material, it's, you 646 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,560 know, it's not evolving. No, if someone came up with 647 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,720 something new that I hadn't heard before, I'd be, I'd be 648 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,000 like, I'd hug them and say like, Oh well, that you, you've given 649 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,960 me something fresh to work with. I'm going to get like 10 pieces 650 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,040 of content out of this. I'm joking. 651 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,400 Obviously I don't want new insults. 652 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,280 But you know, it's like actually you can prepare people quite 653 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,640 nicely because there's nothing people are going to say to a 654 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,040 bisexual that I haven't heard and prepared for. 655 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,680 And that's sort of what the book is about. 656 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,400 Because I think a lot of people that read it, some are bisexual, 657 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,640 obviously some are coming into their bisexual and it's 658 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,360 bisexuality. And it's been helpful for them 659 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,960 in the feedback I've had of like, Oh my God, I sort of knew 660 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,880 this was coming. I read your book and I thought, 661 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,560 Oh my God. And then it happened and I had 662 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,000 somewhere to go and I had some, some sort of reference. 663 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,480 Because I think one thing that's not really talked about on 664 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,480 bisexual issues is that it can be really lonely to be a 665 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,200 bisexual. We don't have these massive 666 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,320 communities like gay people seem to have. 667 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,160 And there's reasons for that. You know, if gay people didn't 668 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,840 meet other gay people, they were not going to fall in love or 669 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,720 have sex. Bisexual people, we do have more 670 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,320 options. We can date gay people, we can 671 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,840 date straight people, we can date other by people. 672 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,239 So there's never been that need to come together in that same 673 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,520 way. And you know, the sex driver is 674 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,120 a big driver of a lot of things. A lot of societies here because 675 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,679 people wanted to have sex. So with bisexuals, it's slightly 676 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,280 different with with why that community would come together. 677 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,760 But there are so many bisexuals that reach out to me and say, I 678 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,159 don't know any other bisexuals. I have no one to ask this 679 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,280 question to. And then what happens is you get 680 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,159 2 bisexuals in a room and they're so different. 681 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,880 You know, not to be prejudice myself, but a lot of gay men 682 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,280 have similar experiences. You can get bisexual people that 683 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,440 have never had sex with a woman, never had sex with a man, never 684 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,760 dated someone of certain genders thinks that their bisexuality is 685 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,880 fluid and they don't ever want to be in a relationship or 686 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,760 whatever other people are like, no, I'm a I'm a relationship 687 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,679 gal, you know what I mean? So it's it's so different. 688 00:34:54,679 --> 00:35:02,800 So having a book is for me a way to just give, I give bisexual 689 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,960 people a point of reference and there is a section in the book 690 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,720 as well for non bisexual people because those I've had those 691 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:08,800 questions over the years as well. 692 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,840 So, you know, oh, my son's just come out as bisexual. 693 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,160 How do I handle this? But in a way, you know, and I'm 694 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,760 a mum that said, you know, he can't have any girls over for a 695 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,160 sleepover, but now he's bisexual. 696 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,200 Should I ban boys? It's like, so you're somebody 697 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,760 can never have anyone over for a sleepover because of his 698 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,520 sexuality. Does that seem fair to you? 699 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,800 And you know, so there are lots of issues like that that come 700 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,760 up. And I know that I said so my, my 701 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,880 most common question genuinely is from men that I guess have 702 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,120 identified as straight and they want to come out after decades. 703 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,960 The second most common question is sort of the reverse of that. 704 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,560 And it's bisexual men that came out and the world told them they 705 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,640 were gay. So they kind of said they were 706 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,080 gay. It was easier to say they were 707 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,040 gay or they went along with it, whatever. 708 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,960 And now they're saying I am bisexual. 709 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520 I was never strong enough to say this before. 710 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,920 I just went with the gay label because that's it. 711 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,720 But I'm 27 years old. I've only ever had sex with men. 712 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,840 Everyone thinks I'm gay. I'm a bit camp. 713 00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,480 What woman is going to take me seriously? 714 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,640 That's so interesting. Feeling that even. 715 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,360 Though they're attracted to women, just feeling like they're 716 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,720 so unattractive to women that you know, and that is that's a 717 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,360 horrible thing. Imagine if you were a gay man 718 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,400 and you felt like gay people would just not be attracted to 719 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,880 you. If you're a straight man and you 720 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,680 thought women are just not going to be attracted to me because of 721 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,360 who I am, that's a horrible place to be. 722 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,920 And I think you mentioned. Something was super important. 723 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,320 I think books like that are so critical for parents who might 724 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120 have bisexual children to kind of read and understand kind of 725 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,200 their experience. And obviously, you've mentioned 726 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,480 the fact that you are a dad. How has being a dad influenced 727 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,800 your role in your media and your advocacy work, being so openly 728 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,720 bisexual? And were there any concerns, I 729 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:05,800 guess, about how that might impact the kids as they go 730 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,760 through school, for example? Yeah, a couple of things. 731 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,920 I mean, I, I would say with my approach, I mean, I've always 732 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,080 hopefully been a reasonable person and met people with 733 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,040 respect. And, you know, I think a lot of 734 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,640 activists or people inside of work can get really angry and 735 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,120 really just, you know. Feel that the world's against. 736 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,320 Them I've always kind of felt, you know, I will go and speak to 737 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,960 anyone. I don't care what their 738 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,600 political leanings are or what they've said before, because I 739 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,680 think that hopefully we can find some common ground. 740 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,480 I think that having kids is like, I want a better world for 741 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,760 them to grow up into. I haven't got time to be tribal 742 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,520 and say, well, you have no experience of bisexuality, so 743 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,800 you have no opinion on this. Look tough. 744 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,040 We, we share the world, like it or not, what straight people 745 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,000 think about us is important because it impacts the reactions 746 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,320 that bisexual people get. So we're going to have to deal 747 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,280 with it and, and have these conversations. 748 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,680 So I think it's kind of made me feel that I really want the kids 749 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,360 to grow up in a, in a world where this isn't an issue 750 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,480 anymore or not just my issue, but all of these social issues 751 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,880 that we, we didn't have a forward thinking society in that 752 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,400 sense. So I think that it probably puts 753 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,600 a bit of fire under there with regards to putting targets on 754 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,640 the kids back. So I have 3 kids. 755 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,360 So I have a three-year old, A5 year old and then I have a 756 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,480 stepson who is now 16. So when I started doing this, he 757 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,760 was a lot younger and in much of the same way that when I started 758 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,640 dating a girl. I realised it put a. 759 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,160 Target on her back, and this is before any of the media work, 760 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,560 but, you know, for example, she was in Manchester in a gay bar 761 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,480 and she got talking to these gay guys and she was like, oh, yeah, 762 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,320 my boyfriend's bisexual. And they were like, what? 763 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680 That's disgusting. You're a straight girl. 764 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,320 You could date any old straight man. 765 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,120 Like it's so rare for a man to be attracted to men like he 766 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,480 should be with a guy. Like forbade of things that she 767 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,400 said, you know, people telling her he's going to cheat, you're 768 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,680 going to catch HIV, all of this stuff when I and you know, the 769 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,240 the reality for me there is that, oh, you wouldn't be having 770 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:12,960 this if you were dating a straight guy. 771 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,920 My sexuality has painted a bit of a target on your back, in the 772 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,120 same way that I don't think if you were two gay guys in a 773 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,760 relationship, if someone in that relationship experienced 774 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,520 homophobic abuse. That's obviously terrible and. 775 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Wrong. But the other partner wouldn't 776 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,040 feel that I've caused it in the way that I felt that I caused it 777 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,440 because if you, you know, if she was a straight guy, that 778 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,440 wouldn't happen. So I was a little bit worried 779 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,040 about as I started doing more media work, that the kids at 780 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,640 school and my stepson's school would find out about it and 781 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,360 tease him. So I was a little worried about 782 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,320 that. Weirdly, they were like, you 783 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,880 know, when it actually did come up, he was like, oh, no, all the 784 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,560 kids at school think you're really cool because she had an 785 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,200 argument with Piers Morgan on TV. 786 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,040 So I'm like, OK. The one good thing Piers Morgan 787 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,080 can do so. It's like, OK, well, fine. 788 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:06,880 You know, I'm glad it's worked out that way. 789 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,320 And with the kid, the younger kids, I mean, they don't know 790 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,160 anything about sexuality and stuff. 791 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:16,720 I would say with regards to them, you know, I'm, you know, 792 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,040 as vain as the next person, you know, have I got the Attitude 793 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,880 magazine where I was on the cover framed? 794 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,040 Of course I have. So eventually, at some point, 795 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,040 they will say, daddy, what's that? 796 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,880 Why were you in a magazine? And I can explain and I think 797 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,640 just with regard to obviously having kids myself, it's, you 798 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,440 know, I would never assume that they're straight or gay. 799 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,400 You know, it's like they could be. 800 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,400 So I just, it's, it's, and it's not like I'm like some woke 801 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,040 parent being like, oh, my kids are just as it's like, no, I'm 802 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,080 just, it could be, who knows. And what was actually really 803 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,640 funny was I don't think he might be telling the story, but with 804 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,720 my 16 year old, and this was a few years ago, she's probably 805 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:56,400 about 14. He was in the kitchen and I said 806 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,520 something like, oh, are there any girls or guys at school that 807 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,200 you like? And he gave me an evil as he 808 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,800 does. And he was like, girls. 809 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,880 And I was like are. You coming out of the street. 810 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,280 And he just rolled his eyes at me and walked off and I was 811 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,160 like, I accept you for who you are. 812 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,640 Because you know, you know. I don't want to assume it. 813 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,320 And even if he is straight, you know, it's like actually, but 814 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,840 still, I want you to have a point of reference of of, you 815 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,720 know, telling your parent what your sexuality is and then being 816 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,480 cool with it, you know, because it's not a given for for some 817 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,560 people. So it, it is what it is. 818 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,200 And I think, yeah, so I don't assume the kids sexualities, 819 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,960 obviously, they're obviously free to be who they want to be. 820 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,760 And I think maybe even just, I think my parents are a bit weird 821 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,240 about sex talk. And so I hope to not be that way 822 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,720 in the sense I remember when I was a kid and my mom, like, even 823 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:55,680 if two people were kissing on the TV, she'd be like and cover 824 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,520 my eyes. And that then gave me a concept 825 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,400 that kissing was wrong. So I think that I'm probably 826 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,400 going to be a little bit more liberal with the sex talk, 827 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,080 whether it creeps them out or not, because I just don't want 828 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,840 them to, to think that sex is dirty or, or wrong and also make 829 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,760 sure that they can protect themselves no matter the gender 830 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,760 that they are with. Or they might be asexual and I 831 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,160 we have to worry about that, but whatever. 832 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:18,720 Yeah, and I think you just touched on something. 833 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,080 Which I think is really important and it comes up a lot. 834 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,120 It's just around representation. And obviously there can be 835 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,520 representation in media. There can be representation in 836 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,720 lots of different ways and it feels like in many ways there 837 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:34,000 are more positive bisexual representation today than there 838 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,880 have been in the past. You have people like Nick Nelson 839 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,080 on Hartstopper, which is a personal favourite of mine, Alex 840 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,920 Clement Diaz on red, white and Royal blue. 841 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,800 But I do notice that in the majority of cases, the bisexual 842 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,680 characters do end up with someone of the same gender and 843 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,400 therefore they, you know, in that representation. 844 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,280 I guess it's that's how it kind of plays out in those shows and 845 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,880 those films. Do you feel it is getting better 846 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,640 or and is that awareness having a positive impact? 847 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,880 And how do you deal with the fact that often that is the 848 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,760 journey of a bisexual character on ATV show or a movie? 849 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,440 It's them coming out by the ending up with someone of the 850 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,720 same gender. So it's interesting so. 851 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:20,240 First of all, I would say media representation is so important 852 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:24,280 and I understand that and I've spoken about this before, but 853 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,360 you know, media is not there to be an activist and to, you know, 854 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,680 insert diverse characters to meet some sort of quota because 855 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,200 I think that's unhealthy. But when media gets it wrong, it 856 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,680 can have profound impact. So I'm looking at you Sex and 857 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,880 the City where they obviously did that episode where she dated 858 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,440 a bye guy and there was all that stuff about, oh, it's just a 859 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,040 layer of runaway to gay town and ultimately didn't want to be 860 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,400 with him because he was bisexual. 861 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,800 And then in later series, some probably younger viewers don't 862 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:54,720 even know what I'm talking about. 863 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:59,840 But Samantha then dated a woman and she was lesbian for three 864 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,600 episodes and then was straight again. 865 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,120 And I think that those did real damage, especially at a time 866 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,080 where Sex in the City, I mean, you know, it's, we're still 867 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,960 talking about it now like 20-30 years later, was a real cultural 868 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,880 awakening for a lot of young women. 869 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,080 Really set the tone on what things were. 870 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,160 And because it was included in that way, I think set bisexual. 871 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,720 Acceptance. Especially by women back. 872 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,800 Decades. And, and if they'd have done 873 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,160 that right, and if even if the you know, the the bisexual 874 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,080 character, they'd have dated for a few episodes and it didn't 875 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,280 work out for another reason, I genuinely think more women would 876 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,480 be open to dating bisexual men because they would have a frame 877 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,720 of reference from this hugely popular show. 878 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,760 Because one of the things we haven't talked about, one of the 879 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,240 biggest issues for bisexual men is that the majority of women 880 00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:51,080 say that they would not date a bisexual man. 881 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,360 And it goes much deeper. It's not just that they wouldn't 882 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,920 date a bisexual man, they would not date a man who has had any 883 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,720 form of sex with another man. And that is an issue because of 884 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,160 then a lot of bisexual men. And I've had people say this to 885 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,520 me, Lewis, there's already so many people that don't want to 886 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,440 date me. If I then come out as bi, the, 887 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,200 the number of women that are going to want to date is going 888 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,200 to go down to about 3 people. But I don't find attractive like 889 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,360 is coming out as bi, just coming out as gay by default because it 890 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,080 puts so many women off. And that's a huge issue that we 891 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,160 have to deal with. And I think that that media is 892 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,520 in a good position to deal with by celebrating bisexual men, not 893 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,360 from a quota point of view, not from a having some sort of 894 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,840 political agenda, but just by telling those stories. 895 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,120 If they end up with a man, fine. If they end up with a woman, 896 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:35,800 fine. If they end up single, fine. 897 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,160 And I, I, I don't have an issue with, you know, lots of those 898 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,200 bisexual characters ended up in opposite sex relationships 899 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,760 because that, you know, happens. I'd rather there just be more 900 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,560 bisexual stories so that you've got some that end up with men, 901 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,880 some that end up single rather than it does, you know, tend to 902 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,040 turn out they either get murdered, turn into a vampire or 903 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:57,560 end up in a straight relationship. 904 00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,600 So I think that that is an issue. 905 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,080 And I think there's just so many interesting bisexual stories to 906 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,200 tell. And one of the things that I, I 907 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,880 was talking about on my other podcast, Bisexual Branch, we 908 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,720 never got around to doing this is we should come up with some 909 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:12,600 bisexual characters and bisexual storylines. 910 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,840 Like let's have a bisexual storyline where he falls in love 911 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,760 with a girl and her gay best friend. 912 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,840 And how does that all work out? You know, let's have, and I 913 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,680 think that someone was saying this to me recently. 914 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,240 It's like, it's obviously not a good thing to happen, but when 915 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:29,680 it happens, if it happens really publicly, that will solidify. 916 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,840 The bisexuality thing in so many eyes is that you need a famous 917 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:37,000 gay couple and you need the bisexual in it to cheat on him 918 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,440 with a girl. Not signing off on that. 919 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,680 Not saying it's going to be like, oh, he cheated on a guy 920 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,960 with a girl, but maybe having that in TV shows and stuff and 921 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,640 people that, you know, it's just questioning people's narrative 922 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,400 and making people say this isn't that weird, you know, and 923 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,240 they're not going to run off and cheat and they're not going to 924 00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:57,560 do all this. I mean, in that situation they 925 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,440 would be. But but I think that media has 926 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,840 this incredible power. And that's what I hope, you 927 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,440 know, that I'm contributing to in a little way. 928 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,920 Obviously I'm not an actor and stuff, but being on TV, being on 929 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,160 podcasts, just helping people with that discovery of like, you 930 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,400 know, bisexuality is a thing. There's some issues that go 931 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,040 along with it. Nothing you can't navigate. 932 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,800 Just read my book and life will be good. 933 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,000 Yeah. It's super important though. 934 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,000 It's so important that people hear their stories told. 935 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,160 I think shows like the soap operas here in the UK definitely 936 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,080 have the opportunity to do that because they can tell 937 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,840 multifaceted stories. Often when movies, it's a single 938 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,360 arc and it has to end in one way or another, whereas TV shows can 939 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,080 definitely explore that a little bit more. 940 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,960 We started this conversation talking about you as a young 941 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,680 person, so I would love to revisit young Louis. 942 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,960 If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what 943 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,360 would it be? And would it be different if I 944 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,600 said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus person 945 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,920 today? What would I tell my? 946 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,600 Younger self. I probably tell my younger self, 947 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,320 and this is not my quote, it's someone else's. 948 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,600 I don't know who so I can't credit them, but it was. 949 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,600 It's something along the lines of what makes you weird as a 950 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,440 child is what will make you successful as an adult. 951 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,320 And I think I probably spent a bit of my childhood thinking 952 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,880 that I was a bit weird or didn't fit in. 953 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,080 And especially growing into the LGBT stuff, a feeling like, Oh 954 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,400 my God, I'm bisexual. That's going to be an issue. 955 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,720 Like, how am I going to tell my parents? 956 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:37,760 Like, what's my dating life going to be like? 957 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,640 Like, what does this mean? But actually, once you learn how 958 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,320 to lean into that stuff like look at me now, writing books, 959 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,120 do podcasts, like, you know, not even having the slightest bit of 960 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,480 anxiety about telling someone that I'm bisexual and actually 961 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,480 it being a plus and in some of the ways too outside of 962 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,120 sexuality, you know, some of my weird little hobbies and 963 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,960 interests, you know, might not be interested anymore. 964 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,320 But actually they taught me about. 965 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,320 What I use now in my life. Which is, you know, not giving 966 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:08,400 up. Not, you know, being 967 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,440 perfectionist, getting this right until it's absolutely 968 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,040 right and just being absolutely obsessed with something until 969 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,680 it's done was a transferable skill. 970 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,920 So, you know, I might not be doing whatever I did as a child 971 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,080 anymore, but now I actually am like using those transferable 972 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,400 skills and just kind of backing myself as well. 973 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,160 Was was quite important to to learn. 974 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,360 So I don't know if I answered the question there, but that's 975 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,520 my complicated thoughts. You did, and I do love. 976 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,880 That idea of, you know, the things that make you feel 977 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,880 different when you were younger are the things that will make 978 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,680 you stand out and be who you are as you get older. 979 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,320 Look, I appreciate you so much being on this podcast and 980 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,440 there's so much more to this sort of conversation. 981 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,640 And people can get that from things like your podcast 982 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,840 Generation Uncharted and of course, your book Bisexuality, 983 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,440 the Basics. But Lewis, thank you so much for 984 00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,880 being on the podcast with me today. 985 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,520 Thank you so much for being our final guest of 2025, which is 986 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,040 incredibly exciting. And just thank you so much for 987 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,520 all your work and spreading such positive bisexual representation 988 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,480 for everyone. Thank you so much. 989 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,240 For having me, it's honestly been a delight to have this chat 990 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:22,040 together. We are strong and 991 00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:33,900 bold.