1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,920 Hello and welcome back to the Queerest podcast, Telling the 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,680 fiercest Stories. This is Queer Talker, and I'm 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,760 Ben Cicchetti. This week I sit down with 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:12,120 England's first openly gay MP and the world's first openly gay 5 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,320 cabinet minister. My first Lord on queer talker, 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:21,240 Lord Christopher Smith. I remember writing a very boring 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:26,040 speech on the train and as I'm walked up to take my place on 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,800 the platform, I just thought this is the place to do it. 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,960 I can remember having to sit through the most dreadful, 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,200 offensive, horrible speeches from some of the supporters of 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:51,000 Section 28I dialled this number, it was a South African number. 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:56,640 And picking up the phone at the other end was Nelson Mandela. 13 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,680 And that, I think, was the moment when I thought perhaps a 14 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,800 career in public life has been worth it after all. 15 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:12,000 Chris, we will start with our queer panic rapid fire 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,120 questions. And so you just respond with the 17 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,280 first thing that comes to your mind, which is what is your 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:24,400 favourite queer movie? Oh, call me by your name. 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,240 Brilliant choice. Timothy Chalamet. 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,640 Fantastic. How about ATV show? 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,680 Queer TV show you recommend to everyone? 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,120 It's a sin. Excellent choice. 23 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,520 How about AI can see a lot of books behind you. 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,360 So what about a queer book you recommend to everyone having on 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,480 this show? Armistead Mopin. 26 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,840 It would have to be I I grew up with all of his tales of San 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,480 Francisco and they are a pure delight. 28 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,760 Amazing. OK, I love that choice. 29 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,400 Who's your ultimate queer? Icon. 30 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:13,440 It would probably have to be in McKellen, but the world is full 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,760 of ultimate queer icons. But that would probably be the 32 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,000 one that I would choose. Yeah, an incredible, incredible 33 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,760 individual, incredible trendsetter and trailblazer for 34 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,480 a lot of us. Who is one person you would like 35 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:34,400 to hear on this podcast? Oh, I'm tempted to say Ian 36 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:48,280 McKellen, I, I think you also ought to ask Wahid Ali to come 37 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:55,840 on first openly gay member of the House of Lords. 38 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,000 He preceded me by a long way in the House of Lords. 39 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:09,440 He has also, of course, not just been a successful businessman, 40 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:16,600 but he's had to tussle with being a Muslim and queer and 41 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,920 that's something you could explore with him. 42 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,360 Definitely. I love that we we discuss 43 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,640 intersectionality a lot on this podcast, so I think that'd be an 44 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:27,320 incredibly interesting conversation. 45 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,320 Is there a moment in your political career that you are 46 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:38,080 most proud of? It would probably be the moment 47 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:46,160 that I achieved my long held ambition to make all the 48 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,280 national museums and galleries free for everyone. 49 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:58,240 It took me 4 years to achieve. It actually happened about two 50 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,920 months after I had stopped being Secretary of State. 51 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:09,160 But the Science Museum invited me back to come and cut a ribbon 52 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,320 and throw open the doors, and we had a lovely little ceremony. 53 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,440 And about half an hour later, I was wandering around in the 54 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,000 foyer of the museum, and this young man carrying his little 55 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,480 daughter on his shoulders, was making a beeline towards me. 56 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,400 And as he came up to me, he turned his face to his daughter 57 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,960 and he said, I want you to say thank you to this man. 58 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,560 It's because of him we're able to be here today. 59 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,680 And that, I think, was the moment when I thought perhaps a 60 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,840 career in public life has been worth it after all. 61 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,080 That is amazing. What an incredible, incredible 62 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,200 legacy that so many of us have now been able to enjoy because 63 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,240 of you. And still in place, of course, 64 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,680 remarkably. Long made Long made? 65 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,400 What is one word you would use to describe your childhood? 66 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:17,600 Calm. I grew up in a very loving home. 67 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,280 My mother was a teacher, my father was a civil servant. 68 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,080 They looked after me really well. 69 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:36,840 They did not initially respond terribly well to me coming out 70 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:42,920 publicly, but term within two years they were inviting my 71 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:50,160 boyfriend to my then boyfriend to come and stay so they they 72 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,800 came round to it after a while. Yeah, that's amazing. 73 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,360 Well, well, we've warmed up a little bit Aqua Panic questions. 74 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,160 So we'll get a bit deeper because you said calm. 75 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,080 And I have this theory that to understand an LGBTQ plus person 76 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,720 as an adult, you do first need to understand them as a young 77 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,360 person. So what should I know about you 78 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,200 as a child or a teenager to understand the Chris that sits 79 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,920 in front of me? Today the one thing I would say 80 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:24,640 is it took me a very long time to realise that I was gay. 81 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:33,560 So it was probably into my 20s when the realisation dawned. 82 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,920 But through the whole of my teenage years I grew up in 83 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:49,400 Scotland and I loved roaming the Scottish hills and the Scottish 84 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,760 countryside and living in Edinburgh was a complete 85 00:06:53,760 --> 00:07:01,760 delight. But I it took me time to realise 86 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,960 that I was gay. Yeah, I mean Edinburgh, it looks 87 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,520 phenomenal. I've never been and it's on my 88 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,680 list of go to places that I need to go to. 89 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,160 I want to go and enjoy Christmas there, I feel. 90 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,960 Like it'd be incredibly fast. It should be very high up on 91 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,840 your list of go to places. Yeah, wonderful. 92 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,760 City, I'll make it happen for sure. 93 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,640 So if you think about that experience, then do you remember 94 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,400 the first LGBTQ plus person you became aware of, either in real 95 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,800 life or just through the news and media? 96 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,520 When I was a student at Cambridge I was very closeted 97 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:45,560 but there was 1 figure who was really open about themselves and 98 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,720 camp would be the obvious word that would come to mind. 99 00:07:54,120 --> 00:08:03,080 But I was sort of aware of him, but I didn't really know him. 100 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:14,320 It was then, subsequently, in my 20s, that I began to get to know 101 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,960 and fall in love with gay people. 102 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:27,040 And I began to lead a very open life at that, at that stage. 103 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,920 Yeah, that's incredible. I often think it's interesting 104 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,520 to understand. Do you remember so many of us 105 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,760 can have a memory of that first time we felt the queerness 106 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,880 within us, whether it's because we we saw something or we got 107 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,080 exposed to something that made us kind of feel something 108 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,400 inside. Do you remember that first 109 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,720 feeling you got that you may be queer? 110 00:08:50,360 --> 00:09:03,400 Yes, and it was when I saw really attractive men and and 111 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:12,960 and thought this is how I want to express myself in into the 112 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:19,160 future. And that was probably when I was 113 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,720 still a student. Yeah. 114 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,400 Well, you also then went on to have an incredible career and 115 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,840 politics as we talked about. What was your journey into 116 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,320 politics and was it always kind of your aspiration as you went 117 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,400 through school and university or did it did something along your 118 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,560 journey kind of spark that path for you? 119 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:45,400 But remember, I grew up in the 1960s and this was a time of 120 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:50,160 real hope and optimism and we all thought we could change the 121 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:55,960 world and that politics and democratic decision making was 122 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:03,520 the way to do it. And, um, I, um, I, I went into 123 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,400 politics because I wanted to change the world and, uh, I 124 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,080 thought that politics was the way to do it. 125 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:22,240 Um, and so from the time I left university onwards, I, I went to 126 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,360 work for housing associations and housing cooperatives 127 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,880 building houses for people around London and the southeast. 128 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:43,400 But I I, I wanted to get involved in politics and I was 129 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:49,320 first of all elected to be a counsellor in Islington Borough 130 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:55,320 Council, where I lived. And then I became the candidate 131 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,160 eventually for Islington South and Finsbury as a parliamentary 132 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,480 seat. Yeah, and obviously famously in 133 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,600 1984 you stood on a stage at a rally in rugby and you came out 134 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,600 publicly as gay. That moment made you Britains 135 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:19,720 first openly gay male MP. What gave you the courage to do 136 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,040 that? Right. 137 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,760 It was a different time. So what gave you the courage in 138 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,520 that moment, knowing the climate of the time? 139 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:32,480 It was a horrible time and the IT was the time of the pretty 140 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,840 police in Earl's Court entrapping people and 141 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,840 prosecuting them. It was the time of the Customs 142 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,800 and Excise raid on gays the Word Bookshop. 143 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,640 It was the time of the fire bombing of Capital Gays offices 144 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,880 in London. And it was not an easy time. 145 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,360 And you have to remember also that when I was first elected 146 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:06,400 the year before in 1983, I had a majority of 363 votes. 147 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:17,600 So it was a wafer thin majority and nonetheless I knew that at 148 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,280 some point I wanted to say something about myself. 149 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:31,040 I had seen a colleague who wasn't out, who was gay, who was 150 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,240 being hounded by the press, and he had people rummaging through 151 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,960 his dustbins. He had people sitting in cars 152 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,960 outside his block of flats all night long recording who was 153 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:51,920 going in and out. And I, I didn't want to have to 154 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,120 go through the same sort of thing. 155 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,360 Yeah. And I just decided that the way 156 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:05,320 to stop the the intrusion was to tell the story yourself. 157 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,520 And by telling the story yourself, you remove all the 158 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:19,800 title tattle from it. And so it eventually proved for 159 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:28,400 me and the the moment that I did it, because I'd been thinking 160 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,600 for about a year, at some point I have to say something, but the 161 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,720 only question was when would be the right moment. 162 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,840 And the City of Rugby had taken the decision. 163 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,000 It had just changed political control and it had taken the 164 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,840 decision to remove sexual orientation from the list of 165 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,120 things that they would not discriminate against in their 166 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,680 employment policy. So effectively they were saying 167 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,080 we do not want LGBT people coming to work for Rugby Council 168 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,560 and there was a big rally in March called for a Saturday 169 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,600 lunchtime in the middle of rugby. 170 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:21,320 And because I had said supportive things about lesbian 171 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,720 and gay rights, they, the organisers, invited me to go up 172 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,000 and speak. And I can remember the meeting 173 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,800 had already started when I arrived. 174 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,520 I had gone up on the train and I remember writing a very boring 175 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:45,240 speech on the train and I walked into the hall. 176 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,280 There were about 1000 people there. 177 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,000 The meeting had already started and as I'm walked up to take my 178 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,760 place on the platform, I just thought this is the place to do 179 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:09,200 it because the issue here is all about how anyone, no matter what 180 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:15,680 their sexual orientation happens to be, can do an equally good 181 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,040 job as anyone else working for Rugby Council. 182 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,920 Yeah. And I just thought actually 183 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,760 exactly the same applies to MPs. Yeah. 184 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,360 And so it was a spur of the moment decision. 185 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,680 It was about 10 minutes before I was due to stand up. 186 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,120 It was 10 of the scariest minutes of my life. 187 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:48,560 My knees were literally knocking together and I stood up and I 188 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:54,320 began my speech by saying my name is Chris Smith, I'm the 189 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,680 Labour MP for Islington South in Simsbury and I'm gay. 190 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:05,000 At at which point the entire audience got to their feet and 191 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,840 gave me a standing ovation. It is the only time I've ever 192 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:17,520 had a standing ovation 20 seconds into a speech, but I 193 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,560 have to say I have never regretted that moment for a 194 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,960 single instant ever since. What was the feeling as you 195 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,760 stepped off stage? There must have been a Was there 196 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,160 a feeling of a sense of relief, a weight off your shoulders? 197 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,560 Was there an anxiety of what have I just done? 198 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,960 Like kind of what was the feeling as you walked off that 199 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,600 there? There was certainly a what have 200 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,200 I just done? Because no one had ever done 201 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:51,720 this before. And I, I remember for the 202 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,280 following week there, there was quite a lot of coverage in the 203 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,640 papers the following day. But for the following week, I 204 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,200 got letters from people all around the country. 205 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,079 Now this was way before the days of social media. 206 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:14,520 So people wrote letters and some of the letters said, 207 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,520 congratulations, good on you. Well done. 208 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,240 But I think the letters which meant the most were the ones 209 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,760 that said thank you. What you've said has made things 210 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:34,160 easier for me. And if I was able, by what I 211 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:40,760 said, to make things just a little bit easier for people, 212 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,520 especially young people up and down the country, it was worth 213 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,120 it. Yeah, I mean it's amazing and 214 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:49,440 it's it's what people need, right. 215 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,880 I often say you can't be what you can't see. 216 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,040 And I think people need to be able to see people being 217 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,520 successful and open and authentic in order to know they 218 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,760 can also do so. What was the reaction in 219 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,440 Parliament from both colleagues and public when you kind of had 220 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,120 to go back, I'm assuming relatively quickly afterwards to 221 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,560 to Parliament? This was on a Saturday in on the 222 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,760 Monday I walked into the House of Commons. 223 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,600 Everyone knew, and there were some people who should have 224 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,680 known better who scuttled past me in the corridor, averting 225 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,240 their eyes. But the vast majority of 226 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:36,600 colleagues were really supportive and warm and and 227 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,800 helpful about it. And especially Neil Kinnock was 228 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,840 the leader of the Labour Party at the time. 229 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:52,960 He was really supportive. And my favourite moment was on 230 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:58,800 the Monday afternoon. I was standing in the queue in 231 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,320 the members tea room to get a cup of tea. 232 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:09,000 There were MPs sitting around all over the place and Edwina 233 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,520 Curry, who was a very ferociously feisty Conservative 234 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:23,480 MP, previous health minister, came barging in to the tea room. 235 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,040 She came marching up to me and in a very loud voice she said, 236 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:33,840 Chris, I hear you've come out well done and turned on her heel 237 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,040 and marched out. And I, I loved her forever 238 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,880 afterwards because of that. That's amazing. 239 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,760 That's incredible. I think what's interesting 240 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,360 though, if we think about that time period is just a few years 241 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,560 later, Section 28 would be introduced. 242 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,240 And Section 28 comes up a lot on queer talkers that quite a few 243 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,880 members of our previous guests have grown up through Section 244 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,000 28, went to school through Section 28. 245 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,800 You were one of the only openly gay voices in Parliament when 246 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:12,760 Section 28 was introduced. I was the only OK, can you take 247 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,120 us? Back to that moment then and how 248 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,360 it felt both personally and professionally, and then I would 249 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,760 love to get your perspective on what, if any, you think the 250 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,640 lasting damage of that legislation has been on LGBTQ 251 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,200 plus people in Britain. Well, of course, it was a clause 252 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,080 that was added to a local government bill, initially 253 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:44,400 proposed by a group of Tory backbenchers but then endorsed 254 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:56,240 by the Thatcher government, and it labelled any LGBT person and 255 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,880 any LGBT relationship as second class. 256 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,760 And it was a deeply offensive bit of legislation. 257 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:15,920 We, of course, eventually were able to repeal it in the early 258 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:24,800 2000s, but while it was on the statute book, no prosecution was 259 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,760 ever brought under it. But it nonetheless had a 260 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,480 chilling effect. And it meant that, for example, 261 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:42,840 a teacher in a school, if a kid came up to them and said, I am 262 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,000 really worried, I think I may be gay. 263 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,600 Of course, what a teacher ought to be able to do in such 264 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:57,800 circumstances is to sit the kid down and say this is perfectly 265 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,720 all right. It's perfectly normal. 266 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:06,560 There are lots of people like you and we will love you and 267 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,280 support you, whatever you happen to be. 268 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,400 But no teacher under Section 28 was able to do that. 269 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:22,560 They had to say, oh, I'm afraid I can't talk about that. 270 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:31,080 And that chilling effect on the ability to guide and nurture 271 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,520 children, that was really detrimental. 272 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:43,480 And when it was, when the legislation was going through 273 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:50,040 Parliament, there were a number of us fighting very hard against 274 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,840 it. I can remember having to sit 275 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,280 through the most dreadful, offensive, horrible speeches 276 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,720 from some of the supporters of Section 28. 277 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:11,960 It it they, they were all about how gay people were a threat to 278 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,840 children and it, it was all about perversion and so on. 279 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,880 I really horrible offensive stuff that people were coming 280 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,560 out with. But I remember there was 1 281 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:36,360 moment of of real hope in all of this. 282 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:42,040 And it was when there was a particularly Neanderthal Tory on 283 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:48,960 his feet, man called Nicholas Winterton making a speech about 284 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,200 Section 28. And I stood up to intervene on 285 00:23:54,200 --> 00:24:01,040 him and made a point. And as I sat down, he looked 286 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:07,400 across the chamber at me and he began his response by saying the 287 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,040 House has learned to listen to the honourable gentleman 288 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,880 pointing at me with respect when he talks about these matters. 289 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,680 But he then went on to disagree with me. 290 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,440 But the fact that he felt he had to put in that little bit about 291 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:36,040 respect showed me that we had made a tiny little step of 292 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:41,600 progress because he was no longer able to talk in windy 293 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,640 generalisations about gay people because they're sitting in front 294 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,080 of him was one of the people he was talking about. 295 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,320 Yeah, it must have been incredibly hard, or maybe it 296 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,760 wasn't because you are such a professional. 297 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,760 But it must be very hard to remain professional in those 298 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,720 moments when people are stood up saying such horrible things 299 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,840 about you and your community. How did you kind of come up, you 300 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,080 know, protect that part of you from what you were having to 301 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,240 listen to? You to a certain extent, you 302 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:23,560 have to let it wash over you and you, you just have to know that 303 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,760 it's wrong and it's evil and it's offensive. 304 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:35,920 But to just sit through it and then stand up and try and make a 305 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,120 coherent argument against what they've been saying? 306 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,000 Yeah. Quite difficult. 307 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:49,040 I think I I would struggle. Obviously EU KS first openly gay 308 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,280 MP, but then in 1997 you joined Tony Blair's cabinet and became 309 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,400 the world's first openly gay cabinet member. 310 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,080 What did that moment mean to you? 311 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:07,480 Well, the rather wonderful thing that happened when I was 312 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,120 appointed to the cabinet was no one noticed that I was the first 313 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,520 openly gay cabinet minister in the world. 314 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,400 And that really did show me that we had made progress because it 315 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,960 was no longer something really remarkable. 316 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:33,640 It was just taken in its stride by the media and all the 317 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,800 political commentators. And that, of course, is how it 318 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:47,080 ought to be. The there were two other gay but 319 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,960 not openly gay members of the cabinet in that first Blair 320 00:26:52,960 --> 00:27:01,080 administration, and one of them did come out to a great to do in 321 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,800 the press. One of them never did come out 322 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,520 and but nonetheless, everyone knew that he was gay. 323 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:19,200 But it it was, it was a remarkable first, and 324 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:25,120 particularly remarkable because it didn't raise an awful lot of 325 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,800 comment. Yeah, that is interesting. 326 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,720 And as, as you say, that almost should be the way it is, that it 327 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,400 shouldn't be groundbreaking. It was groundbreaking and it was 328 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,280 incredible. What was that period of your 329 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,080 life like then whilst kind of serving under Tony Blair and in 330 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:46,320 his his government? Well the what we were able to do 331 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:54,200 of course was bring in a whole raft of change for LGBT related 332 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,480 legislation. The first thing we did was to 333 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,560 equalise the age of consent and then we got rid of Section 28 334 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,120 and then we had equal access to goods and services. 335 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,120 And then we were able to reform the way in which the diplomatic 336 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,680 service and the Armed Services operated. 337 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,240 And then we were able to bring in civil partnerships and that 338 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:28,560 whole raft of legislation. I remember Tony Blair's office 339 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,000 was really nervous at the outset. 340 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,320 Oh, what are our working class pension of voters going to think 341 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,600 about a Labour government that does this? 342 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:51,040 And we eventually managed to persuade them that if the ER, if 343 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:58,360 two young men brought a case to the European Court of Human 344 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:08,280 Rights and if the European Court found against the UK, then the 345 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,960 government would legislate. And that is precisely what 346 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:20,000 happened to very brave young men assisted by Stonewall, went to 347 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:25,040 the European Court, took the government to court, won the 348 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:31,800 case and then Blair was able to say we have to do this. 349 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:39,440 And he not only brought in equalisation legislation in the 350 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,720 House of Commons, but then when the House of Lords threw it out, 351 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,400 he invoked the Parliament Act to force it through the House of 352 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:55,440 Lords in the subsequent year. And of course, when the 353 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,080 legislation actually came into force, the roof didn't fall in 354 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,280 and the working class pensioner voters weren't the slightest bit 355 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:10,160 concerned about what was happening and everyone sort of 356 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,160 thought this is rather a good thing. 357 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:20,160 And after that it was easy to persuade his office to allow us 358 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,960 to do everything else that we wanted to do. 359 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,200 Yeah, it's an incredibly, I mean, obviously he went on to 360 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,160 get elected a couple more times after that. 361 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,480 So it's an incredibly important message actually, I think 362 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,360 because I think we sometimes feel like we have to pander to a 363 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,320 certain vocal minority. Then actually I think what 364 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,520 you'll find and what I hope is that the vast majority of people 365 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,440 just want people to be able to live their lives with equality. 366 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,840 So I think seeing that and knowing it didn't, you know, as 367 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,320 you said, the roof didn't fall in, you know, the hell didn't 368 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,960 freeze over. Life continued and you know, the 369 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,600 government continued to be successful. 370 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,360 Absolutely. And in some ways I think 371 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,840 ordinary people were way ahead of the politicians on this. 372 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:09,480 And one of the reasons it became easy to bring in all the 373 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:17,080 legislative change that we did was that it wasn't so much that 374 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,880 public figures like politicians and actors had come out. 375 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,680 It was that ordinary people in their family, amongst their 376 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,080 friends, in their neighbourhood, in their workplace had come out 377 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,280 to their friends and had said, yes, I'm one of those. 378 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,720 And everyone had begun to realise that these were 379 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,040 perfectly normal, decent, ordinary people. 380 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,600 And that changed public attitudes enormously. 381 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,000 Yeah. But I think what you need is 382 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,160 people like yourself who are a voice in that room, right. 383 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,560 And often what I talk about is the importance of diversity from 384 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,920 a business perspective and a leadership level. 385 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,320 From a business perspective, you could argue there's no higher 386 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,800 leadership team in the UK anyway than the Cabinet. 387 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,880 Why is it so important, therefore, that we have 388 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,440 diversity of people and background in our cabinets? 389 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:27,640 Because the Cabinet must reflect the spectrum of people within 390 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:35,320 the nation as a whole. And the, uh, one of the, uh, 391 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,120 real arguments for diversity, which is under enormous threat 392 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,440 in, especially in the United States at the moment, umm, it's 393 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,360 also a bit under threat here because there are many companies 394 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,760 and organisations that are taking their lead from the Trump 395 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,200 assault on, uh, uh, DEI in the US. 396 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:09,680 Umm, the one of the main purposes of promoting diversity 397 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:19,280 is to say if we want all the available talents in our 398 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:25,640 organisations, in our companies, in our country, we need to 399 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,200 appreciate and celebrate difference. 400 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:36,440 And there will be many people who don't look like you, who 401 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,280 don't behave like you, who are different. 402 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,840 And we need to welcome those people because they will have a 403 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,920 a lot to offer that you don't. Yeah, I think it's such an 404 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,720 important message, especially right now. 405 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,800 As you say, we are seeing things being stripped back in the 406 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,320 United States and unfortunately that often kind of does have a 407 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,600 knock on effect here in the UK and it's definitely something 408 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,360 we're seeing from a business perspective. 409 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,520 You continued to break new ground and pioneer and be a 410 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,120 vocal member of the community, and in 2005 you revealed that 411 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,480 you were HIV positive. What made you decide to share 412 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,199 that publicly, and what impact do you think that openness had 413 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,080 on the community and on society as a whole? 414 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:41,239 Well, I was first diagnosed with HIV many years before, in 1988. 415 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:48,800 And for many years I thought, actually, this is nobody's 416 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,600 business. I told a few friends, I told my 417 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:02,160 then partner of course, but I didn't say anything publicly 418 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:10,040 because it wasn't affecting my ability to do my job at all. 419 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:19,920 And then in 2003, a journalist from The Sunday Times phoned me 420 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:26,280 up and said I want to talk about your health. 421 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:35,000 And I knew immediately what it was that they were wanting to to 422 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:42,560 do. And so I said, well, if you want 423 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,360 to do that, then I want to speak with your editor. 424 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,720 And within 20 minutes the editor of The Sunday Times, who was 425 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:59,040 John Witherow at the time, had phoned me up and I said to him, 426 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,480 you do realise of course that revealing someone's personal 427 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:11,040 health details without their permission is in flagrant breach 428 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,120 of the editorial code of conduct. 429 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:18,080 And I don't want you to say anything at the moment. 430 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:24,960 What I will say, I said to him is at some point I will want to 431 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,600 say something about this and when I do, I will do it with The 432 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:38,240 Sunday Times. And he in a remarkable moment of 433 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,920 ethical journalism, he didn't publish anything at that point. 434 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:54,600 And when two years later, Nelson Mandela had made a speech at his 435 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,200 son's funeral, his son had died of AIDS. 436 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:07,560 And the he made this rather wonderful speech saying we must 437 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,800 stop hiding this. We must come out and talk about 438 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,920 it. We must make it public. 439 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:22,920 We must address the stigma that comes with HIV and an HIV 440 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,760 diagnosis. And I just thought, well, 441 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,320 perhaps I ought to say something now. 442 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,160 And so I phoned up The Sunday Times and I said I want now to 443 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,240 go public. And they literally cleared the 444 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:46,120 front page and made a big splash of it. 445 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:53,200 And I then did a whole series of interviews through this Sunday 446 00:37:54,400 --> 00:38:02,320 and I was making two points. The first was what I hope I've 447 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,320 been able to demonstrate is that it is possible to live with HIV 448 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:15,640 and make a perfectly worthwhile contribution to society and work 449 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:24,400 whilst you are HIV positive. And secondly, I said in a 450 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:30,520 perverse kind of way, I've been lucky because I've had HIV in a 451 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,520 country with a National Health Service with medical expertise, 452 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:45,080 with answers to the the virus. And we mustn't forget that there 453 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,120 are thousands of people around the world who aren't in that 454 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,440 lucky position and we need to think about and help to support 455 00:38:54,440 --> 00:39:01,520 them as well. And I have to say the coverage, 456 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:08,640 with the exception of one article in the Daily Mail on the 457 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:15,840 Monday, with that one exception, the coverage was remarkably 458 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:24,120 constructive and positive. And the finest moment was on the 459 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,440 Monday morning, I walked into my office in the House of Commons 460 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,160 and there was a little note on my desk saying please ring Mr 461 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:42,200 Mandela and a telephone number. And so I dialled this number. 462 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,800 It was a South African number. And picking up the phone at the 463 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:53,640 other end was Nelson Mandela, who said I just wanted to say 464 00:39:53,640 --> 00:40:00,040 thank you for saying what you have and it makes a real 465 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:05,280 difference. And that moment almost made the 466 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,640 whole thing worth it. Yeah, that's incredible. 467 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,880 What an amazing, amazing individual to have spoke to, an 468 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,320 amazing, amazing thing for you to do. 469 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,920 I think to your to your first point, is that continual work to 470 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,720 remove the stigma and we still see it today. 471 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:26,080 Most recently on I Kiss the Boy on the BBC, one of the 472 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,880 contestants, Adam came spoke about his HIV positive status 473 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,880 and just kind of the importance of removing so much the stigma 474 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,920 that still exists because so many of us grew up through the 475 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,480 80s and the 90s where there was this impression of HIV in a 476 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,120 certain light. Now we need to help do all the 477 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,720 work to kind of remove that and recognise that people can, as 478 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,640 you said, live healthy, happy, productive lives. 479 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,880 And that's just so incredibly important. 480 00:40:52,640 --> 00:41:00,120 And of course, for a long time, anyone with HIV was fighting 2 481 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:06,120 diseases, was fighting the virus itself and everything that it 482 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,720 was doing inside you, but also fighting the stigma that came 483 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:18,120 with it. And that was eased a little bit, 484 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:26,960 but not wholly, and we still have to fight the stigma and the 485 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,520 prejudice that comes with it. Yeah, completely agree. 486 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,760 Right at the start of this conversation, you mentioned your 487 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,680 time at the University of Cambridge, and in July you were 488 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,040 elected Chancellor of the University of Cambridge. 489 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,360 Can you talk to me about what that role entails and kind of, I 490 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,240 guess, what you hope to achieve in that work? 491 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:55,400 Well, the, the, the, the, the, all the real work is done by the 492 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,040 vice chancellor. The chancellor sort of floats 493 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:07,760 over the top and but the duties are largely ceremonial. 494 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:16,720 But you have a duty and an opportunity to be a voice and an 495 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,800 advocate for the university and for higher education more 496 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,840 generally. And of course higher education, 497 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,360 especially across the other side of the Atlantic, is under real 498 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:38,000 threat at the moment. Academic freedom is at real risk 499 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:46,520 and freedom of speech, which is what a university has to be all 500 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,680 about. What we're seeing across the 501 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,400 Atlantic is everyone talking about freedom of speech, but 502 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,000 what they mean is only one particular kind of freedom of 503 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:08,440 speech, and anyone who disagrees with that is it is rubbished and 504 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,960 introduced. And we need to protect academic 505 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,120 freedom, we need to protect debate and discussion and the 506 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:23,240 search for evidence and truth. And the chancellor of the 507 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:30,200 University of Cambridge can raise a voice for doing that. 508 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,680 You are the Queen, you're not the Prime Minister, so you don't 509 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:42,240 actually make decisions about what the university can and 510 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:47,360 can't do. But you can set the tone and the 511 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,120 culture and the atmosphere of the place. 512 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,200 And that's something I very much hope to be able to do. 513 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,440 Yeah, and it's so important, right. 514 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,120 To your point that if we think about what we've just been 515 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,640 discussing, being a voice can be so incredibly important and can 516 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,560 really help shape, as you say, even if the you can't make the 517 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,520 change yourself, helping shape perceptions and shape opinions 518 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,680 is incredibly important and. Rather remarkably, amongst the 519 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:22,760 10 candidates for the chancellorship there were three 520 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:29,840 openly gay candidates. One, of course, was John Brown, 521 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:37,440 who has a troubled history in BP and but one was Sandy Toxvig, 522 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:48,000 who ran a very feisty and open campaign and I'm delighted to 523 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:57,440 say that she came third and virtually all of her votes 524 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:04,560 transferred to me in the in the final stage of the of the vote. 525 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,560 That's amazing. We talked a lot about kind of 526 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,920 the political climate throughout your career, and I've suggested 527 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,560 that the current political climate as it relates to the 528 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,920 trans community feels reminiscent of the climate in 529 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,400 the 80s and 90s for the gay community. 530 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,920 As someone that was clearly just at the forefront of change 531 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,880 during that time, do you feel that's a fair comparison? 532 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:41,560 I think it's entirely fair. And I really do despair of the 533 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:48,000 way in which, uh, the position of trans people has been 534 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:56,280 weaponized and labelled, um, on both sides of the argument. 535 00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,880 And I, I really want to knock everyone's heads together and 536 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,040 say, for heaven's sake, we are talking about individual human 537 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:12,160 beings here. And very often these are human 538 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,800 beings who are going through real challenge and former and 539 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,360 difficulty. And our job is to support them 540 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,360 and help them. It's not to label them and turn 541 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,480 them into a political battleground. 542 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:38,160 And I just hope that over the course of the next few years, we 543 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:48,320 can get to a position of real equality and support for trans 544 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:54,040 people. I have to say the EHRC is not 545 00:46:54,040 --> 00:47:01,760 helping at the moment, but we we need to get better at 546 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,760 understanding what someone who is transitioning or has 547 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:14,480 transitioned really needs in terms of support and facilities. 548 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,920 Yeah, I completely agree. And I think, you know, so many 549 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,640 people, much like we talked about through the 1890s, people 550 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,520 just wanted to want to live their lives and they want to 551 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,680 thrive and they want to be able to live their authentic self. 552 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:28,720 And that's not a threat to anyone else. 553 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,040 And in fact, it's actually those individuals that are actually a 554 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,040 more threat than anyone else. So we do all need to come 555 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,800 together. We do need to protect them. 556 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,320 We started this conversation talking about you as a young 557 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,080 person, so young. Chris, if you could give your 558 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,960 younger self one piece of advice, what would it be? 559 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,400 And would it be different if I said, what advice would you give 560 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,600 to a young LGBTQ plus person today? 561 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:03,640 It would be exactly the same advice and it would be don't be 562 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:11,680 scared, be self confident about who you are and what you are and 563 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:18,360 go out and express that amongst your friends in the world 564 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:24,200 outside I. I've had the privilege for the 565 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:29,560 last 10 years of being head of a college at Cambridge. 566 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:38,840 And I have gone out of my way to try and make sure that we 567 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:51,200 welcome and embrace the any student who is LGBTQ plus who is 568 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,360 worried about who or what they might be. 569 00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:01,400 And making sure that it's a welcoming environment and it's a 570 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,400 supportive environment is something I very consciously 571 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:12,480 tried to do. And many of our young students 572 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:19,200 have said to me, thank you because it has provided me with 573 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,160 a really safe environment and it's given me the courage to be 574 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:30,400 who I am. And I hope that not just in the 575 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:36,280 little bubble of the Cambridge College, but more broadly in 576 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,840 society as a whole, we can get to that stage. 577 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,240 Yeah, I love that. Don't be scared and be brave. 578 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:46,280 It's such an important message. Chris, thank you so much for 579 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,440 being on the podcast. But on this podcast, we often 580 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,760 talk about those people who have laid the groundwork and fought 581 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,280 the fights for people like me to not only live but thrive as our 582 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,720 authentic selves. And you are one of the reasons 583 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,480 that today we have an openly gay leader of a major political 584 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,200 party, Zach Polanski. So from many of us in the 585 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,800 community, thank you so much for everything you did. 586 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,320 And continue to do for the RGBTQ bus community. 587 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,080 Well, thank you. You are much too kind in what 588 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,160 you say. But if I've made a tiny little 589 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:29,280 contribution at some point over the past 40 years, then it's 590 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,760 been worth doing.