I knew that I was at the point where I, I, I couldn't continue
living as jets and I just, I didn't want to get rid of her.
I just needed to flip the image. But walking back through a
prison gates and saying you're now Mr Feely after three years
prior of being this female officer was one of the most
terrifying things. Every decision that I made,
especially for the 1st 12 months, was I do this or I die.
When you're running like that and just waiting for this hand
to get to be on your shoulder, oh, it's just a it's the best
feeling. I'd always really believed that
when it feels scary to jump, that's exactly when you jump.
Hello and welcome back to the Queerest podcast telling the
fiercest stories. This is queer talker and I'm Ben
Cechetti. This week I sit down with the
inspiring Jackson Feely. But before we get to that
conversation, I've got 1 favour to ask.
Wherever you are watching or listening to this episode, hit
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and the Queerest episodes every single time.
So in advance, thank you. Now it's my conversation with
Jackson. Jackson, as always, we will
start with our queer panic rapid fire set of questions.
You just respond. But the first thing that comes
to mind What was the first album you ever owned?
The first album I ever owned. Oh my God, that's got to be like
steps. I love that.
Something like that. It would have these steps.
All Spice Girls. OK, OK.
Both are amazing, so I'm good with that.
One of them. If you had to lip sync for your
life, what song would you choose?
You know what's really ironic? My karaoke song used to be
Shania Twain. Man, I feel like a woman.
OK? I used to rock that karaoke song
that was like. That's a classic.
Known for it. OK, well I love that because we
have a playlist where I Add all these songs, so now I get to
add. That OK, I love that.
Who was a childhood celebrity crush of yours?
Maybe Shanas Wayne. And oh, I don't know, because I
used to think that I that I fancied them, but I really
wanted to be him. Yeah, obviously.
Like, so I would say like David Beckham because I used to think
I was obsessed with him for one reason, when really it wasn't.
It was another lately. That's fair.
What is your biggest red flag? Our.
Biggest red flag. Oh God, I don't know.
The inability to communicate. Yeah, I'm not cope with that.
I can't cope with hot and cold. It stresses me.
Out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I completely agree with you there.
Oh it stresses me out. Like just say what's in your
head. Yeah, life would be a lot
simpler if people did. So I'm one that gets in my head.
So if I don't know what you're thinking, then I'm I'm going to
play it all out of my head for a day 100.
Percent just say it, don't leave me questioning.
What is your favourite queer movie or TV show?
Oh, rocket man, Elton John. Great choice.
Classic film choice. One of my favourite albums.
Yeah, that's brilliant. Speaking of movies and TV, you
have obviously featured on both haunted and banged up reality
shows. Are there any other reality
shows you would love to appear on?
How's your baking skills? Oh, there's loads I would love
to do and if I was ever famous, you know, if I'd love to do
strictly, yes, I'd love to go in the jungle.
Yeah. And I'd love to go and be
brother. I just love being immersed in
things, you know, like just like be totally in it.
I'd do SAS like I'd love, I'd love to do it.
I'd love to. That'd be cool.
Yeah, we'll see. I feel like the.
Jungle would be tough. I like, I couldn't do the whole
eating like a kangaroo's anus or whatever the random things they
have to eat are, yeah. I mean I would struggle though
everyone with that stuff but I would love.
To do it still be an experience. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
So what about your favourite or your ultimate queer icon?
Well, I've already said it, but I would say Elton John, 100%
Elton John. Yeah, legend.
And then the final of our Queer Panic Rapture questions.
What is one word you would use to describe your childhood?
My childhood loved. That's amazing.
I love that. Well, we've warmed up and so we
can go. You can get a bit deeper now.
And you said loved. And I have this theory that to
understand an LGBTQ plus person as an adult, you do first need
to understand them as a young person.
So what should I know about you as a child or a teenager to
understand the Jackson that sits in front of me today?
Oh, wow. And I was always going to do
what was what felt true to me no matter what.
And yeah, that is the biggest thing, I think.
I think when you connect the dots, I was always, always going
to do what what felt right to me.
And there's a story that my mom always tells me about when I was
about 6 or 7. And I was I was a tomboy growing
up. And then I had to be a
bridesmaid for my auntie's wedding.
And then obviously I had to wear a bridesmaid dress and I was
only about 6 or 7. And I remember my mum being
like, like, come on, darling, you've just got to wear this
dress for one day. And then, and I was like in an
absolute state about it and just wanted to keep my football kit
on. And then and like late at the
end of the day when we was at the the reception, everything,
and my mum like, lifted the dress to fix the underground and
I had my football shorts on. And she always says to me like,
and obviously like all the adults, like, burst out laughing
and was like, this is just classic.
And when when she told me that story, especially since
transitioning, it really makes me look at that, look at that,
that that little person and realise that it doesn't, it felt
wrong. It felt wrong.
And I had to do something to make it feel right.
Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does.
And I think that's interesting because obviously you felt
something in you from such a young age, you felt you didn't
connect with what people expected of you.
And I think for many of us, we have that kind of early or first
spark on our first moment where we do feel kind of our inner
queerness. Do you remember when that was
for you? I think there's been been been
so many moments, especially throughout my childhood and
growing up that I didn't recognise as those things.
And so the, the first sort of real moment for me was when I
started to question my sexuality as a gay woman at the age of
sort of 1819. And, and didn't really
understand what that meant in, you know, in growing up in a, in
a northern town like Wigan. And I didn't know any gay women,
you know, back then, like 10 years ago.
And so I, when I first joined the RAF and I was suddenly
surrounded by all of these amazing, you know, strong women.
And we're all wearing the same uniform.
And, you know, they're playing rugby and, and, you know, they
are gay and they know who they are and they're confident and
they own it. And that was a real, real, like
turning point for me in terms of that real first sense of
belonging and that first sense of like, oh, this is who I am.
But when I look back when I was younger and I and I look at
different behaviours or different thoughts that I used
to have, you know, like I used to try and convince myself I
was, I was happy being a girl. And you know, these things that
I didn't really know what it meant, but there was an anxiety
there that that shows so much now when I look back.
I think it's interesting because quite often what I hear is that
people have to kind of take themselves out of their comfort
zone, out of their familiar situation to kind of fully
embrace themselves. I, for example, moved to Canada
when I was 18, and that's kind of when I kind of discovered my
sexuality and I came out while I was living in Canada.
Did you feel that it was leaving home and going to the RF that
helped you to kind of recognise that in yourself?
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you start to
question it where you are, but I think when you step away, you
find the permission because you see, you know, other people or
you might be in a more open minded environment or you,
you're speaking to different people.
And I would encourage any young person to, to do that, you know,
especially whether that's the military or something else,
because it does take you out of that, that small town mindset.
It takes you out of of what you think is the be all and end all
and and it's not and it and it can show you who you really are,
especially, you know, it's it's it's getting better now, I
suppose in some senses. But back then I didn't know any
gay women in Wigan. And so I would have I don't
know. You question whether or how you
would find the courage And and I like to think that I would have,
but you just don't, you know. You just don't know, dear.
So obviously with that first kind of feeling in yourself,
when you went off to the RAF, when do you then think you first
authentically felt yourself and then when did you feel you could
authentically bring that to everything you do?
Don't get me wrong, there's been times in my life where I have
felt myself like when you do first figure out or, you know,
this is different, or the military's different, or being
gay, being a gay woman's different or, you know, playing
sport is all of these different things where you feel like it's
you when you belong. And I think there's so many
different elements of my life where I felt that sense of
belonging. But I think there was always
that little bit missing in being truly, truly authentic in
myself. But I don't think I ever had the
vocabulary to verbalise it until you find that representation or
you find, you know, the explanation that fits how you're
feeling. And, and so I've only ever
truly, truly felt myself since since beginning to transition.
And I only started to to think about that when I was about
2627, just because I fell into this YouTube hole after
struggling with my mental health, you know, for up and
down for, well, my whole life really, and wanting to fill a
void or wanting to find something that fixes it.
And when you do that, they all, they all run out.
You know, like the military sort of filled it for four years.
Or, you know, you buy a new car and it fills it for two weeks
or, you know, decorate your house and you sort you out for a
year. But you always sort of come
crashing down as soon as the world goes quiet again.
So transition is definitely the only time that I've really,
really felt like, no, this is this is who I am.
Yeah, and I think something you said on Haunted, I believe was
it before your family? It was going to be either having
a dead daughter or a living son. That's obviously a massive
statement and a massive kind of thing to have felt in yourself.
Can you share what you meant by that and how that kind of shaped
not only your journey with yourself but also your family's
journey as? Well, it was one of those things
that when I, when I did sort of come out and say I was going to
transition, obviously it was a massive, massive shock for from,
you know, my mum, my dad and my brother and my sister.
And we've always been such a close knit family.
And you know, especially where we live and stuff, you know,
it's not, it's not something that you know about.
And obviously, as we know, like there's so much, there's been so
much clumsy representation of trans people in the media that
it does portray a certain image or a certain ideal or a certain
thought that people have perception of what trans people,
who they are and you know, what they look like and all of these
things. And so especially me and my
dad's, like we really, really bought it heads initially
because, but it weren't because he wanted to disown me.
It was because he was terrified of the world that I was about,
that I was entering. And he was because that's what
hits a parent more than anything.
It's fear. It's like, what are you going to
do? How are you going to work?
You know, I have to lose a daughter.
Like what? And so we really sort of boys
heads because I've made so many impulsive decisions in the past
and, you know, I've been trying to figure out who I was or what
was wrong with me or I was depressed or, you know, just all
these crazy things, constantly trying to work it out, trying to
find what it was. And so he was like, what if it's
the wrong decision? You know, we're going to have to
leave Wigan. I'm going to end up punching
everybody for giving you abuse and just just this just this
massive fear. And so it reached a point where,
you know, I did have to say those things because it was
absolutely true. Like I'd reached a point at the
age of 27 where I could not be just anymore.
And, you know, saying that to them and saying, you know, I've
tried like I've tried with everything that I've got.
You know, I've been, I've done all this sport.
I tried really hard in school. Like, you know, I joined the
military, I'm in the prison service.
I've done this, I've done that. I've tried like I bought the
house. I've done all these.
I can't be Jess anymore. Like, I've tried so hard to do
it and find a way and I cannot, I can't, I can't do it anymore.
And I'm not killing her. She's not going anywhere like I
want. I'm taking her with me.
And I think that was really, really important.
And I do believe that it is really, really important for
trans people to try and do that because I don't think you can
heal what you can't. Look at what you can't
understand. And you know, that person was,
you know, Jess was 27 years of my life.
I don't want, I don't want that to be to be dead, so to speak.
And I had to go into that with an open mind for my family as
well. You know, they've had they've
had 27 years of the daughter and, you know, a child that they
named and thoughts and dreams and all these experiences.
And I don't want to, I don't want to take that away and I
don't want to take it away from me there because she got me to
right here, right now. And, and so I knew that I was at
the point where I couldn't continue living as jazz and I
just, I didn't want to get rid of, I just needed to flip the
image, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does.
And I think obviously it's clear though, from for anyone who
hasn't seen it haunted your family feature in it.
We will definitely talk about that.
I love it later on. They it feels like they have
just become the most fully supportive and embraced Jackson
for who you are. Oh, they're absolutely
incredible, you know, and I think, I think that has a lot to
do with it. You know, they, they've always
been very passionate about, you know, your love, your kids
unconditionally and that's it. Like you're a kid and that,
that's it, whatever it, whatever that means.
And yes, yes, it's hard and yes, you have to have really
difficult conversations that you really don't want to have and,
and go through those brave moments every day and, you know,
butt heads and keep talking and keep talking and keep talking no
matter you, you don't want to, but you have to keep doing it
until you find that understanding.
And it takes time and it takes, it takes me having to think
about how this is affecting them as well as me and them having to
think how this is affecting me as well as them and how we move
forward. And I really tried to include
them in everything I was doing and take them on that journey
with me as well as everyone else around me.
Because like I said, you know, they've had 27 years of that
person and they need to understand why this is happening
and, you know, telling them why I'm doing something or why it's
really important to go on this podcast.
Or, you know, why visibility is so vital.
And they could look at this message I've just got from from
this woman who's whose trans child is in hospital because
they tried to take their own life, you know, and just
constantly like explaining things to them so that they
don't feel as clueless when other people ask them questions.
I think it all just made a massive difference.
And over time, as frightened as I was, they started to see the
light come back in my eyes. And now they look at it and
think, Oh my God, that was absolutely right.
Like, you know, and they still call me Jess and she all the
time, like by accident. It's, it's not malicious.
It's my, it's my parents. Like they're going to say that.
They've been saying it for 27 years.
So but they absolutely accept who I am and that's all I said
to them, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't need you to do
anything. I just need you to try and just
accept that this is what I have to do to remain your child.
And I think by doing that, it really, it really changed them.
And they say to me now, you know, it's especially my mom.
Like he's taught her so much about about people and about
what might be going on and just looking at things in a different
perspective, you know? Yeah, that's super interesting.
I think from there's a there's a family perspective to it.
But also, you know, assuming my research was correct, I believe
you transitioned while working as a as a prison officer.
Yeah. And I've spoken to other people
in the past and they've explained to me they often felt
they needed to almost change jobs mid during transition,
right? So you leave one job, you
transition, then you go back because they just felt very
uncomfortable walking back into the office one day as their true
self, even though they would have felt comfortable in
themselves, they would have felt uncomfortable coming into the
office. What was it like for you walking
back into that, especially that environment?
You know my naive perspective of a prison, that environment as
your authentic self, and how kind of.
The prisoners and the other prison officers kind of reacted
to that. I mean, it's definitely not
something I thought I would be able to do.
Initially I thought I just need to, you know, I need to leave
Wigan, I need to leave my job, I need to leave everything.
But after a few weeks and after I'd come out, I realised that
I'd always really believed that when it feels scary to jump,
that's exactly when you jump. And if I'm going to do this, I'm
going to do it properly. Like, and I miss, I want to be
around my friends and I love my job.
And you know, if I'm going to do this or die, well then I might
as well just do it. And every decision that I made,
especially for the 1st 12 months was I do this or I die, you
know, I, I come out or I, I transition or I die, I go back
to work hard to hi, you know, I have these conversations or I
die. And so as extreme as that
sounded, that's how it was. And that's, it was like I was
just tunnel vision to just do that.
And so don't get me wrong, it was the most terrifying thing
that I've ever done, you know, and I've done some terrifying
things in my life and in my career in the military and in
the prison. But walking back to a prison
gates and saying you'd now missed a feely after three years
prior of being this female officer was one of the most
terrifying things. And you know, my mum's biggest
fear at that point when I said I was going to go back to where it
was like, well, what's going to stop 5 men dragging you in a
cell and trying to, you know, sexual assault, sexually assault
you because, you know, they're trying to prove you're still a
woman, you know, and all these things.
And prisons are very dangerous places anyway, despite put in a
protected characteristic on your back that a lot of people don't
understand or disagree with. And so I was, I was very aware
that all those dangers were there.
And then I was making myself even more vulnerable than a
prison officer is anyway, because on a, on a prison wing,
you've got, so the ratio from officer to prisoner is 1 to 40.
So it's like 4 prison officers to 200 men on a way.
And, and so it's, it's a dangerous job regardless or I
don't know. I just had faith that I could
have these conversations in the right way and try and, and try
and show that this wasn't about gender for me.
It was about being a human being because that's what it was for
me. You know, I just didn't really
see it as just a gender thing. I just, this is what I had to do
to stay alive and be happy. And all of those prisoners
needed to do something similar to sort the life out.
And so I worked on them. It's called the psychologically
informed plan environment. And so we did a cater for a lot
of prisoners with salty disorder and people who struggle to
maintain the relationships or manage their emotions, dig into
their own trauma and stuff like that.
And then we did a lot of groups with them to teach them about
different things or, you know, talk and all these things.
And so when I went back, I just all, I just literally just sat
there and I was like, and I looked exactly the same.
I just shaved my ass. I honestly it's now and I just
think, how the fuck did you even do that?
You know, I just, I just don't understand.
Sorry. Can I start on this podcast?
Yeah, you're good. And honestly, I look back at
that person and I think, wow, I don't know how you did, how you
did it. And I just spoke to them about
the vulnerability and about feeling suicidal and about
having to do this if I wanted to keep living or if I wanted to
live a happy life. And don't get me wrong, there
was abuse and there was lack of understanding, but there was
also an element of humanity that I did not expect from people
who'd spent 20 years in prison. Because they started to realise
that we are all just human beings struggling with one thing
or another. And that's, that's, that's what
it was like they started to think, you know what, you can do
that and come back to work and help us deal with all our stuff
whilst dealing with your own. Then I can find the courage to
change my own life. And so it just had this impact
that I just can't even explain with, you know, same with the
officers and the staff. Like the prison had never dealt
with anything like that before. And, you know, we kind of, they
guided me and I guided them and they were really supportive of,
you know, how can we make this? Because I didn't want it to be a
big deal, but I needed to be safe.
And so from what people have said to me, they felt really
comfortable because I made it known that it's OK to make a
mistake or it's OK any questions or it's OK to, you know, not
have a clue about this because I didn't have a clue about it.
Well, I started doing it. So how can I expect anyone else
to be the same? And yeah, I just tried to really
make it. I still wanted to have banter.
I still wanted to on the lap. I didn't want people to tip toe
around me. I think that's why I'm so
passionate about about taking people on that journey with you
because it's not just my transition, it's everyone around
me. It's transition as well.
Yeah, that is a super interesting perspective as to
kind of, you know, as you say, everyone else, family, friends,
Co workers, people you work with have to also make a mentality
kind of transition with you. Speaking of your time as a
prison officer, you obviously step back into a prison as part
of Channel 4's Banged Up, which was incredibly interesting to
watch as someone that's never spent any time in a prison.
What? Was it like to film that?
And then I guess how close to a reality of prison life was it
because these were not, these weren't real.
These were former prisoners who had who were asked, being asked,
I guess, to act like they would have acted when they were in
prison. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I was actually still a prison officer at the time, so I
I was just swapping one prison for another.
But it was, it was as close as reality as it could possibly be
without including the things that you cannot show.
So for example, we couldn't show violence, we couldn't show
drugs, could show self harm and suicide, you know, all these
things that do happen very, very regularly in prison.
And so the extreme aspects of that, obviously that couldn't
be, that couldn't be be shown, but everything else, like what
absolutely 100% real. And you know, I have an argument
on it, absolutely real. Like, you know, the when you put
people back into an environment like that, it's, it causes a
massive mindset switch when you put people.
So a lot of those, a lot of prisoners and or prison
officers, there's a lot of, there's a, there's a mental
aspect of it and a lot of trauma and you know, a certain persona
that you have to have going back into an environment like that.
And so the ex prisoners, they was put into the prison two days
before the celebrities arrived. And we run that prison for eight
days, like 24/7, like it was prison.
So you've got people literally locked behind a door again.
And that brings up so much. And so for prison officers and
and the ex prisoners, it brings up a lot of, of expert past
experience and a lot of feelings.
And, you know, especially for prisoners, like I'm locked
behind this door, you know, I've changed my life.
Like it's, it's very, it's so conflicting.
But yeah, like everything that that happened, honestly, it was
just, it was so real, like, because it just caused those
behaviours, you know, like, have you ever, I can't remember what
the experiments called, but they did an experiment years ago with
telling people to be prison officers and prisoners.
And it's just human nature. And the prisoner started to act
like prisoners and the prison officer started to act like
prison officers. It wasn't either.
They were just put in an experiment.
What like it changes the dynamic of how you behave and, and the
celebrities obviously were in for an absolute shock, but it
definitely opened their eyes in terms of, you know, what prison
officers have to deal with, for example, in terms of how
outnumbered they are and how you manage those situations.
And a lot of trauma that a lot of prisoners have gone through
and why they've ended up on that path.
It definitely, it definitely think it definitely opened a lot
of people's eyes who watched it. But but yeah, it was fun.
And look, it's super interesting.
I do actually recommend people watch it is a, you know, it will
make you never want to go to prison in your life for sure.
But also it, it's interesting to hear the stories of obviously
the stories from the celebrities, seeing how they
react to it is kind of the the entertainment element of the
show. But it's actually the story of
the prisoners and how they went down the path they went.
And so many of us can probably appreciate those different
moments in people's lives where they make certain choices.
So that part of it was super interesting to me.
Obviously it's not just banged up.
You also on Haunted. I definitely want to talk about
it a lot later on, but there was this beautiful, there was this
beautiful moment on Haunted that I wanted to kind of talk to you
about. And it was your sister said that
who you were on the show with said that seeing you move
through the world without anyone questioning your gender would
mean the world to you. How much does that resonate kind
of with your day-to-day life now?
And was there a moment when you first felt that?
When you first felt completely unquestioned in who you were?
Yeah, I mean, she wasn't wrong. Like, you know, it does.
It does absolutely mean the world.
And when we filmed Haunted, it was like 3 years ago now where I
was only about 18 months into transitioning.
So I look at hunting now and I look like an absolute baby.
Like I look so young and had you.
Applied before or after you started transition.
No, but after, after I think I think we applied about six
months before filming. So it wasn't like a, a long, but
it was all still very new. And that I think at that point,
you know, after a year, I think, I think it takes you 12 months.
I think it took me about 12 months to really to really stop
having that super, super heightened awareness in terms of
how I looked. Because it does take, you know,
when you do, when you first start taking hormones and
testosterone, you want everything right now.
You know, I was about 27 and I knew what I wanted.
And so you want that, you want it all right now, but you have
to sort of you have to stop and then you have to enjoy the
journey, you know, And I think after a year when I'd had chest
surgery, which was a massive, massive thing for me, that's
when I really, really started to, to stand up a bit more,
especially for, you know, trans men who, who haven't had chest
surgery. It does, it makes you feel very
uncomfortable. It makes you like hunch over
more. I was like strapping my boobs
down with rock tape and now it's just full of cuts and blisters
and it's it just makes you uncomfortable permanently.
And, and obviously you're always worried about that being exposed
especially. Obviously he's an officer as
well. You know, it wasn't a secret,
but it was also if I got my shirt, it's off like that.
But and so when I had that done that, that changed my life.
That was massively like life saving for me and that really,
really changed. And I think then moving into
things like haunted and just being able to like have a
childhood as Jax with myself, like we played.
On an adventure weeks. And it was just, and I think at
that point I'd really sort of settled into transition and
being Jax. And I think it was a really
amazing time for her to sort of get to know Jax if that happens,
like, I haven't changed, but spend that time and build that
sort of bond with, you know, because we've always been so
close. But that real bond with, with,
with the work, with the name Jax.
Yeah. And it was just, it was really,
really powerful for us. And, you know, it was such an
amazing experience. And yeah, walking through the
world now and not worrying about that is, you know, I'm extremely
lucky to have that because not everyone does.
And it's, it is a dangerous place to live and be trans.
And so I think Nick can see how much that means and how much,
you know, that would have meant to me at the time, because we
was really vulnerable anyway, that we was having to, like,
approach strangers and yeah, you know, like it was just.
And so it really, really built my confidence as well.
Yeah, I can imagine. That's so interesting to think
about. You know, obviously we all go
through our childhood with our siblings, all those those who
had the siblings and you have those experiences with them and
that's when you kind of form those relationships.
But then, you know as you enter your into your 20s, you often
spend less time with your siblings.
So then having that intense time together again to kind of reefer
and talk about an intense experience, it's like, oh.
God, yeah. She wouldn't do it again.
I would. She wouldn't.
They'll be in All Stars one day and you'll get asked so.
Oh. Yeah.
I don't, I don't think I could do it.
I feel like I'd get caught like day one, like I would just have
no idea. Unbelievable.
We we nearly got caught literally as as they like, like
said go yeah. And then we just managed to
actually get to the end, so God knows how.
Incredible, incredible, super entertaining as well.
Obviously, reality TV is one of the kind of many hats that you
wear as Jackson. You know, reality TV, you're a
speaker, you're an advocate, you're a influencer on social
media. How do you find the balance
between all of those? And then how and when, I guess,
do you unplug and just spend time with the Jackson that's
behind the screen? I think it's difficult.
I think, I think it can become all consuming and sometimes have
a really negative effect on you mentally.
Like recently I took like August off because since leaving the
prison two years ago, my brain has just been like, where am I
going? What am I doing?
What am I trying to do? How do I find money?
How do I keep posting? How do I, you know, what, what
direction is this going? Am I getting anywhere?
Is it worth it? And just constantly 24/7.
And so I reached a point where I was like, I'm so passionate
about this and what I'm doing, but at the same time is my my
daily happiness, suffering because I've got such a strong
passion and purpose for this long term, but day-to-day it
doesn't feed my soul, if that makes sense, because it is a
long term game. And so from the outside, you
know, people might see you doing all these amazing things, but
that's taken years to build good relationships or, you know, it's
post every day because people watch you for years are really,
I'm really careful with who and what I align myself to and then
trying to find the balance of it, not just being all about
being trans because that's not all that I am and all these
things that I'm trying to be really intentional about that
probably make this take so much longer to achieve success or,
you know, whatever that is. And so I've constantly been
going back and forth with, am I just really struggling to grieve
being a prison officer? Or is it something that is part
of my core and that element of service in my life?
You know, is it something that I actually do still need because I
miss having both and, and obviously it was difficult to
balance both, but sometimes I think we just have to zoom out
and think, is this feed in my day-to-day happiness?
And, you know, yes, I still want to keep doing this and I'm never
going to stop, but I have to make sure that I'm happy as well
and fill in my own book to be able to then keep putting out
this energy, especially in a world that seems to be going
backwards. And so for me, I've really
struggled to find that balance because I'm not very good at,
you know, not like I've been in uniform since I was 19 and the
last two years, I guess I'm really proud of proving to
myself that I'm OK and that I'm fine.
And then I'm all right on my own.
But at the same time, if I can make me happy, then that's what
I need to do as well. And so I'm looking at the minute
of how I, how I bring a bit of that service sort of background
and part of who I am into, into my daily life whilst I continue
on on this, this mission of becoming a positive
representation within the media. And so I do think it's really,
really hard to find that balance.
And it's really, it takes a lot to sort of zoom out and step
back and actually ask yourself those questions.
And maybe sometimes it's questions you don't want to
answer, but it's, you have to, you have to find the ability to,
to try and build that self-awareness because if you
don't, you can get so far down the line that you can't go back
or that, you know, you've realised you are really unhappy.
And how do I fix this? And that's never something that,
that I want. But I've definitely learned the,
I've definitely learned the difference between being
depressed and unhappy, you know, because for a long time, I
definitely was depressed, obviously for different reasons,
especially in terms of transitioning.
But I know now that if I'm having a bad day or I'm
struggling with something, I'm trying to figure something out.
I'm not depressed. You know, I might be able
unhappy about something, but but in myself and in my soul, I'm
happy that I've ever been. And so I think that's really
important as well. Yeah.
I also think that the, that that lifestyle is relatively lonely
because it's all on you, right? Like, I can only think of it
from doing this podcast is that, you know, it's on me sat in
front of a screen editing things together, thinking about kind of
how this comes together, doing outreach and all those sorts of
elements. You don't have that, you know,
when you're a prison officer, when I'm in my kind of day job,
the other people around you, the, the banter from that
community that support you get. So is that something that you
struggle with? Is the kind of the isolation
element of doing what you're doing.
Yeah, definitely. Like I love people.
I love being around people. I bounce off people.
And I absolutely love, you know, I love the, the sort of creative
content side of things. And you know, and I've, I've,
I've had an amazing two years and I'm so proud of, of what
I've been able to dive into and stuff.
And I want to keep doing that. But yeah, it is, it can be so
lonely because you're not around people, are you?
Not just chatting shit, you know, in the morning before you
crack on with something, or obviously being around prisoners
and prison officers and this, this whole sense of humour and
dealing with crisis, like constantly the world becomes
very quiet, you know, and I've, I've sort of had to really learn
to, to deal with the peace because I think the peace felt
really unsafe to me for a long time because I wasn't used to it
like peace in here or peace around me.
And so having both made me feel very unsafe.
And, and so it's just about learning about all those things
and bought this industry. Yeah.
Like, I've spoken so many of my friends and they, they struggle
as well. You know, it because it is, it
is, it's quiet. It's really quiet.
I think sometimes when you don't have a structure to your day or,
you know, there's no, there's no one making you get up in the
morning or go there or do this, you're left with all these
options and you make it kind of cripples.
Yeah. And like, this is going to sound
really sad, but it's true. And it's really important.
I've reached this point now on this decision now because like
some days I go a day and I've not even laughed.
Yeah. Or like I've not spoke to
someone and I think that's not, that's not what I want.
Yeah, that's not healthy. That's not OK.
And and so I don't want to keep diving into that, into that
hole. I need to find that balance.
I need to be around people a little bit more to to stay
myself and keep learning and overcoming and keep keep having
things to then say, you know, And so that's kind of the point
I'm at the moment. Yeah.
And you mentioned kind of that idea of inner and outward kind
of peace. And one of the things you've
talked about kind of in on a similar topic is the need to
take breaks from social media and take breaks from your phone.
Why do you think that, especially for someone in your
position and kind of a such a large social media presence, why
do you think that is so important?
And then I guess what advice would you offer to people like
me who could probably do with a digital detox and to step away
from social media on my phone a little?
Bit you know what, it's the first time I've really done it.
Actually, no tell. I obviously did it for three
weeks on the run and recently I did it for for a month.
Yeah. And it's just so healthy.
Like I think especially if you're going through a difficult
time or you know, like we were just talking about then because
I'm not around a lot of people all the time, you start to pick
up this phone and you're searching for you're searching
for some happiness or. Connection.
Validation or something to make you feel alive, but really what
you're doing is you're trying to settle your nervous system
because that's that's what it's doing.
It's, it's because that's become the addiction or that's become
where you think the life is. You're looking for something to
settle you settle your unity or settle your knees or you know,
and I sometimes I think what like, I don't want to watch
other people live. I want to go and live, you know,
and so I just think it's really healthy because you can get so
wrapped up in that world, especially if you know it's your
job or it's what you're doing. And especially in the queer
space and the amount of mega of the amount of negativity, it can
really pull you in if you don't pull yourself back and you think
then that that's all that's going on in the world or that
you know, and then obviously the more you see it, the more it
shows you and then you just begin thinking that that's
everything and it's not. And we have to try and zoom out
and go actually does this. Like if someone says something
negative about me, no one cares. Yeah.
You know no one cares like someone could have someone could
have 100,000 followers and say something negative about me but
if I zoom out does anyone really care what you say?
No, like because does that make sense?
Yes, yeah, yeah. I don't mean it in terms of
like. Obviously it hurts, but like,
what's the bigger imperson? Doesn't matter.
But if I zoom out now and look at the Earth, is the world
listening to what you're saying about me?
No. And so I never ever reply to
negativity or hate or whatever. And I say this all the time to
people who are worried about, you know, posting a line or the
negativity is if you do the work to understand you and know your
soul 100%, you can appreciate the positive, which I do so
much, but it doesn't give me an ego or, or affect who I am
because if I, if I took the positive in, I would have to
take the negative in And, and so I can just ignore the hey or
appreciate the positive. But neither one of those tells
me who I am. And I think that's so important
to know your soul, you know and understand that because
everyone's going to have something to say or an opinion.
But if you know yourself and you have the ability to allow
yourself and the people closest to you to laugh at your biggest
insecurities and take the make, no one else can touch you.
You. Just got to stay.
Just just stay true to you, you know, and there's so many
amazing people in the world and there's, there's so many
horrible people in the world. But if you zoom out, does it
matter? Yeah.
Does it really matter? You know, is it worth ruining
your day over or getting into an argument over?
Or, you know, just focus on you and what makes you happy and the
people you love. Yeah, I completely agree.
And I think we've kind of beat around the Bush a little bit on
this topic and I think we need to dig into it a little bit
deeper because I'm a little bit late to the party because I only
watched it this year, even though I know you filmed it
three years ago. So I need to.
Talk last year, don't worry, it only came out OK, OK.
I need to talk more about haunted because I'm just freshly
obsessed, freshly kind of super into it.
Can you? Clearly your dog is loving it as
well. We're busy.
Can you give me a quick run through of Haunted and just tell
me about the experience of filming it?
Because I can't quite put myself in that position at all.
And what is it like? Explain the concepts.
Yes, if anyone who's unfamiliar quickly the concept, but then
also just kind of that experience of three weeks on
the. Run.
So there's six pairs of people and you set off from with us.
It was, I think it was picked at Piccadilly in London.
And you have to basically just go and stay on the run.
Don't get found for three weeks and then reach an extraction
point at the end now. And you'd be basically being
haunted by police, ex military intelligence, you know, all the,
all the, all the clever ways that the UK will find a very
dangerous criminal basically. And and so you just have to
remain undetected and if you detected, get away.
Yeah, and so don't take a photo at a funfair or something.
Yeah, so, so we, so we started, you start with 5050 LB and a
spare part clause and then you just, and then they just say go
and there's helicopters above you and you have to basically
get away and stay hidden. It's like a major game of hide
and seek. It's a really big game of hide
and seek and, you know, and there is a lot of different
things you have to do. And because obviously, you know,
if everyone just went and hidden the field, it would be a very
boring TV show. Yes.
So there's a lot of moving parts, but you are absolutely,
you know, left to your own devices.
And when they are that close to you, they really are that close
to you. Did you know your sister have
like a game plan like ahead of time?
Do you go right? This is this is the what we
think we're going to do. And how close did you manage to
stay to me not. Really, you know, we just kind
of was like we move every day. We'll move every day.
We'll never split up. You know that that was just that
was just it just we, we went into it like we're going to win.
Like that's it. We're going to win.
We knew why we were doing the show, obviously, because I
wanted to to sort of be this positive representation and, and
hit living rooms in a different way and, and just show who I was
as a person because I think that is what changes mindsets a lot
of the time and show how a family can can adapt and be OK
with this. And, you know, because there
there would have been a lot of families watching, you know, who
may have not agreed with trans people are, you know, struggling
with their own children and stuff like that.
And, you know, we received so many messages since as well,
saying it helped open a conversation.
But yeah, so we knew why we wanted to do it and obviously
wanted to for us. I wanted Nick to do it because I
wanted her to prove to herself that she could do anything she
set a mind to and and just for our relationship as well.
And so we were just, we were just in it, you know, and it was
fascinating. Obviously it was both because
she's a prison officer as well was both being prison officers.
I think they, they found it interesting to try and catch us.
And obviously my dad's wanted to be like just the whole the show.
Yeah. He nearly got us caught, you
know, a few times trying to get involved.
And my mum was like, no, it was like I'm going to extraction.
She's like, no, you're not. So yeah.
And see. That's the All Stars version.
It's you and your dad. That's what would make Oh no, he
moaned about his knee the whole time.
Not a chance Kingpin would not survive on the road.
No, no. Too many injuries, too much
moaning, too much talking to the camera when he should be
running. No, definitely.
He definitely had a great time and he definitely wound them up.
You know, I think there was this, there was this one bit
that never made it to the show where they were trying to
pretend they'd figured out this code that my dad and his friend
were using where they were calling us pies because like
pies are wicked thing. And so my dad and a couple of
others were like using this code, like I've picked up the
pies. Anyway, I think the hunters had
figured it out. And so they rang one of my dad's
mates. It was the one of the one of the
headhunters, Ray, and he rang one of my dad's mates being
like, oh, I know. It's such a such a body.
Terry's mate, you need to bring the pies here, blah, blah.
And it was just so strange. Obviously we didn't know this,
we were on the road, but he told us afterwards is my dad was sat
with this mate when they rang. And so Nick put my dad on the
phone and my dad was like, Oh yeah.
And Ray was like, who's this? It's kingpin.
And Ray was like, oh fuck off, Terry.
And put the phone down and he was telling us like his veins
were popping out and he was absolutely fuming.
And so my dad definitely just drove him wild and and obviously
me and Nick did did the same so many times as well because it's
just because we knew it was a hunter LED show.
So wherever the hunters were, that's what was going to be
entertaining. That's what was going to be on
screen. And and I was so passionate
about about the audience getting to know us for for so many
different reasons, predominantly being the trans conversation.
We knew that we had to be involved with the hunters
because we we could have won and gone undetected for three weeks
and hardly been on it. And, and so and we wanted to
just have fun. Like we wanted to get chased.
You know, we chased when we got stuck in mixed yard.
Oh yeah. Yeah, there was so much more
running. Obviously they didn't get seen,
but being chased like that, oh it's just amazing.
Like we literally ran and died in this.
It would give. Me such anxiety.
And we sat and I, like, sat on top of Nick in this Bush and
she's shouting at me because I'm sneezing and like, we're getting
bitten and we're just arguing. And then we're like, shall we
just go and do that again? That was meant because when
you're a kid and you run, you're running for running sake, aren't
you? Whereas when you're an adult,
you never do that. Like it's always, you know,
exercise or just running for stupid things that you don't
enjoy. When you're running like that
and just waiting for this hand to get to be on your shoulder or
it's just a, it's the best feeling.
It's. So good, It's so good.
It must have felt like being a kid again because like, it is
those games you play as a kid, like when it when it genuinely
means something to get caught and hide and seek.
Oh God, when we nearly got caught at the end on that train
and Nick just burst out crying afterwards when we've made it
away. Like, that's the feat.
That's the level of I thought we were done then, you know,
because it meant so much. And it just meant, yeah, it just
meant the absolute world. But if you haven't watched it,
watched it because it's class. I highly, highly recommend that,
and I think it does speak to obviously, incredibly
entertainment. It also speaks to the power of
something you said, which is the power of entertainment and media
to shine a spotlight, right? Because it's a show watched by
so many people from so many different backgrounds.
That representation is so important.
What kind of has been the reaction to it or what was the
reaction to it on social media and from people kind of reaching
out to you? It was very much, you know, just
sort of I think it changed a lot of people's mindsets.
I think it really, really showed a lot of people that you don't
have to disown your child and this doesn't have to be
absolutely terrifying. You know, this is a prison
officer who's transitioned, who you know, is sister's is best
mate, and you know, they've managed to win like that.
That was so powerful. That was oh, sorry, you can add
it that hours. You want that that that was so
powerful, because it just assured people that you can do
anything you put your mind to. You know, this world doesn't
have to stop you doing that, you know, but you have, you just
have to set your mind to it and be willing to, to have those,
those hard conversations and do those scary things.
But yeah, like I said, we had so many messages about the fact
that it had brought that conversation to a living room.
And that's, that's what we wanted, you know, and, and even
just not, not not even being about being, being trans, just
showing the, the power of, you know, a sibling relationship or,
you know, doing something that frightened you.
I've had, I've had all sorts of messages off people from like
you inspired me to leave a toxic relationship to, you know, I
want to go and do this thing that I'm terrified of doing.
And our relationship really sort of, I think touched people
because we were just, we're just so northern and normal like
we're. Just so genuine.
We just, yeah. And I'm just really glad that
that came across. Yeah.
And because you never know how you're going to come across,
really so. Yeah, it's the power of the
edit, I guess. Yeah.
And I think there was one, there was one clip that like
repeatedly goes viral and it's something and we're doing our
interview videos. And it was like, what?
What would it mean to win 100 grand?
And I was just like, oh, well, I've I'm 10 grand down from
chopping my boobs off. So it would work, would help.
And like, so many people just love this.
It was like just so real. Yeah, because I was spending so
much money just transitioning. Yeah, but no, it was just
amazing experience. Yeah, I imagine and I think
doing with your sibling must be incredible, like turning my
siblings listening to this. We could not do it together.
So let's not let's not go down that path.
But I think it's incredible to have done it together.
You recently announced a new book, Fear Proof.
The courage to let go, begin again and do it scared.
What can you tell me about that? I'm really excited about it.
It's something that I wanted to do for for a long time and I
didn't. I didn't want to write a book
about me because I think my journey is sort of only just
beginning really. But I did want to try and use my
experiences to help people go through change and transition
and you know, and frightening things in the life because I've
learned so much from repeatedly doing what terrifies me.
And I've also learned so much from from actually going on the
run, which is the first time I had the brain space to read a
book. But those sort of self
development, personal development, self help kind of
books. I've learned so much and I
gained so much from reading books like that, that I wanted
to try and, and write 1 myself, you know, and I'm passionate
about personal development and learn as much as you can about
yourself. And, and I did a talk recently
that my friend told me it was, it was about having one scary
day, one brave conversation. And it made her go and
completely change her life from listening to it.
And since then, that was only in March, she said to me, you know,
you need to write a book, a book about that, about, you know,
having having one scary day, one brave conversation, one big
decision can completely change the course of your life.
And so I basically like went to work writing this book and, and
hopefully, you know, hopefully it can have an impact, but fear
proof is basically, and I've called it that because I think
everything I share and everything I believe in is about
building a bulletproof mindset. Like it's not, it's not that we
don't want fear. Like we actually need fear.
We, we want fear. We just don't want it to destroy
us. We need to be able to feel it
and use it and move through it and do it anyway.
And so that's why that's why it's called fear proof.
And it's, it's basically about feeling like you need to make a
massive change in your life, feeling terrified to do that
because you don't know what's on the other side.
You know, you don't know what's going to happen when you jump
off the Cliff, you know, and the fall might be really, really
long. Or, you know, you might be stuck
at the bottom for a really, really long time.
And you don't know if you can even climb back up.
And just all this living with uncertainty and living in this.
I don't know if this decision is going to be right or wrong, but
I have to take it, you know, and I have to be willing to let go
of all that life that's behind me in order to build a new one.
And I think we always after we have to get rid of parts of us,
we have to grieve parts of us to make room for the new and let go
of of parts of us. Sometimes what we don't want to
are parts of our life, parts of our identity.
And I've transitioned so many times in my life.
Yes, the gender was the biggest one, but it was by far not the
only one. You know, like I've struggled
with leaving the military or leaving the prison service or
leaving a relationship, you know, things that we're all so
terrified of and trying to adapt to the changes that's go with so
much. And so that is what it's about.
I love it. I think it's amazing.
And that's such as? Fingers crossed it will have an
impact. And I think it will because I
think you're, so you're so right in that those moments of fear
are often, obviously there's bad moments of fear, but those
moments of fear can often be the things that then shape you for
the rest of your life. I think about my own experience.
I moved to Canada when I was 18 on my own.
That was a huge kind of leap that I took and it changed me
definitely for the better. I remember coming out for the
first for the first time, coming out to my sister and just kind
of like emailing her closing laptop and walking away.
You just don't know what her action is going to be.
So I think that is so important. I think it will have a real
genuine impact. When do we have a release?
Yeah, so it. Comes out on the 20th of
November. So yeah, it's only coming out on
Amazon. But if, if it can have an
impact, if it reaches enough people, then you know, then
maybe we can, we can make it go further.
But we'll see, we'll see. Fingers crossed.
Well, we will share it with this podcast.
I'll. Be sending you an invite to the
launch anyway. OK, exciting times.
OK, well, we started this conversation talking about young
Jackson, so let's revisit them. If you could give your younger
self one piece of advice, what would it be?
And would it be different if I said what advice would you give
to a young LGBTQ plus person today?
And. No, I think, I think I would
always say, I think I would always say to the younger me or
to anyone right now is I would always say do it's good all the
time and I would I've recently I've recently heard this and
I've been saying it loads is if your life was a movie right now
and the audience was screaming at you to do something, what
would they be saying? Wow, Whatever it is, do that.
Like the scary decision is usually the one that will change
your life. That's amazing advice.
Do scared is such a good such a good phrase to live by.
I feel like it needs to be on a T-shirt.
That sounds really, really strong.
Jackson, thank you so much for being on Quit Talk with Me
Today. But more importantly, thank you
for all the work you do. I do believe so much in
representation, but I also think you're such a powerful speaker.
I've seen so many videos of you speaking at different events in
different circumstances. I think what you say is so
important. I think it does have an impact.
I think your book will have a massive impact on people.
So for me and everyone in the community, I just appreciate you
so much. Oh, thank you so much mate.
Thank you for having me.