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I knew that I was at the point 
where I, I, I couldn't continue 

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living as jets and I just, I 
didn't want to get rid of her. 

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I just needed to flip the image.
But walking back through a 

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prison gates and saying you're 
now Mr Feely after three years 

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prior of being this female 
officer was one of the most 

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terrifying things. 
Every decision that I made, 

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especially for the 1st 12 
months, was I do this or I die. 

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When you're running like that 
and just waiting for this hand 

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to get to be on your shoulder, 
oh, it's just a it's the best 

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feeling. 
I'd always really believed that 

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when it feels scary to jump, 
that's exactly when you jump. 

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Hello and welcome back to the 
Queerest podcast telling the 

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fiercest stories. 
This is queer talker and I'm Ben

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Cechetti. 
This week I sit down with the 

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inspiring Jackson Feely. 
But before we get to that 

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conversation, I've got 1 favour 
to ask. 

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Wherever you are watching or 
listening to this episode, hit 

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that subscribe button. 
It's one click and it's going to

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make a massive difference. 
It's going to allow me to grow 

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this podcast and it's going to 
allow me to bring you the best 

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and the Queerest episodes every 
single time. 

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So in advance, thank you. 
Now it's my conversation with 

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Jackson. 
Jackson, as always, we will 

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start with our queer panic rapid
fire set of questions. 

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You just respond. 
But the first thing that comes 

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to mind What was the first album
you ever owned? 

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The first album I ever owned. 
Oh my God, that's got to be like

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steps. 
I love that. 

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Something like that. 
It would have these steps. 

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All Spice Girls. 
OK, OK. 

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Both are amazing, so I'm good 
with that. 

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One of them. 
If you had to lip sync for your 

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life, what song would you 
choose? 

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You know what's really ironic? 
My karaoke song used to be 

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Shania Twain. 
Man, I feel like a woman. 

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OK? 
I used to rock that karaoke song

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that was like. 
That's a classic. 

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Known for it. 
OK, well I love that because we 

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have a playlist where I Add all 
these songs, so now I get to 

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add. 
That OK, I love that. 

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Who was a childhood celebrity 
crush of yours? 

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Maybe Shanas Wayne. 
And oh, I don't know, because I 

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used to think that I that I 
fancied them, but I really 

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wanted to be him. 
Yeah, obviously. 

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Like, so I would say like David 
Beckham because I used to think 

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I was obsessed with him for one 
reason, when really it wasn't. 

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It was another lately. 
That's fair. 

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What is your biggest red flag? 
Our. 

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Biggest red flag. 
Oh God, I don't know. 

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The inability to communicate. 
Yeah, I'm not cope with that. 

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I can't cope with hot and cold. 
It stresses me. 

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Out. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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I completely agree with you 
there. 

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Oh it stresses me out. 
Like just say what's in your 

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head. 
Yeah, life would be a lot 

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simpler if people did. 
So I'm one that gets in my head.

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So if I don't know what you're 
thinking, then I'm I'm going to 

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play it all out of my head for a
day 100. 

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Percent just say it, don't leave
me questioning. 

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What is your favourite queer 
movie or TV show? 

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Oh, rocket man, Elton John. 
Great choice. 

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Classic film choice. 
One of my favourite albums. 

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Yeah, that's brilliant. 
Speaking of movies and TV, you 

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have obviously featured on both 
haunted and banged up reality 

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shows. 
Are there any other reality 

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shows you would love to appear 
on? 

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How's your baking skills? 
Oh, there's loads I would love 

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to do and if I was ever famous, 
you know, if I'd love to do 

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strictly, yes, I'd love to go in
the jungle. 

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Yeah. 
And I'd love to go and be 

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brother. 
I just love being immersed in 

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things, you know, like just like
be totally in it. 

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I'd do SAS like I'd love, I'd 
love to do it. 

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I'd love to. 
That'd be cool. 

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Yeah, we'll see. 
I feel like the. 

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Jungle would be tough. 
I like, I couldn't do the whole 

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eating like a kangaroo's anus or
whatever the random things they 

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have to eat are, yeah. 
I mean I would struggle though 

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everyone with that stuff but I 
would love. 

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To do it still be an experience.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 

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So what about your favourite or 
your ultimate queer icon? 

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Well, I've already said it, but 
I would say Elton John, 100% 

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Elton John. 
Yeah, legend. 

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And then the final of our Queer 
Panic Rapture questions. 

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What is one word you would use 
to describe your childhood? 

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My childhood loved. 
That's amazing. 

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I love that. 
Well, we've warmed up and so we 

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can go. 
You can get a bit deeper now. 

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And you said loved. 
And I have this theory that to 

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understand an LGBTQ plus person 
as an adult, you do first need 

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to understand them as a young 
person. 

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So what should I know about you 
as a child or a teenager to 

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understand the Jackson that sits
in front of me today? 

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Oh, wow. 
And I was always going to do 

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what was what felt true to me no
matter what. 

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And yeah, that is the biggest 
thing, I think. 

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I think when you connect the 
dots, I was always, always going

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to do what what felt right to 
me. 

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And there's a story that my mom 
always tells me about when I was

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about 6 or 7. 
And I was I was a tomboy growing

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up. 
And then I had to be a 

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bridesmaid for my auntie's 
wedding. 

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And then obviously I had to wear
a bridesmaid dress and I was 

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only about 6 or 7. 
And I remember my mum being 

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like, like, come on, darling, 
you've just got to wear this 

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dress for one day. 
And then, and I was like in an 

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absolute state about it and just
wanted to keep my football kit 

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on. 
And then and like late at the 

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end of the day when we was at 
the the reception, everything, 

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and my mum like, lifted the 
dress to fix the underground and

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I had my football shorts on. 
And she always says to me like, 

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and obviously like all the 
adults, like, burst out laughing

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and was like, this is just 
classic. 

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And when when she told me that 
story, especially since 

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transitioning, it really makes 
me look at that, look at that, 

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that that little person and 
realise that it doesn't, it felt

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wrong. 
It felt wrong. 

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And I had to do something to 
make it feel right. 

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Yeah, if that makes sense. 
Yeah, it does. 

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And I think that's interesting 
because obviously you felt 

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something in you from such a 
young age, you felt you didn't 

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connect with what people 
expected of you. 

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And I think for many of us, we 
have that kind of early or first

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spark on our first moment where 
we do feel kind of our inner 

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queerness. 
Do you remember when that was 

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for you? 
I think there's been been been 

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so many moments, especially 
throughout my childhood and 

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growing up that I didn't 
recognise as those things. 

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And so the, the first sort of 
real moment for me was when I 

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started to question my sexuality
as a gay woman at the age of 

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sort of 1819. 
And, and didn't really 

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understand what that meant in, 
you know, in growing up in a, in

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a northern town like Wigan. 
And I didn't know any gay women,

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you know, back then, like 10 
years ago. 

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And so I, when I first joined 
the RAF and I was suddenly 

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surrounded by all of these 
amazing, you know, strong women.

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And we're all wearing the same 
uniform. 

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And, you know, they're playing 
rugby and, and, you know, they 

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are gay and they know who they 
are and they're confident and 

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they own it. 
And that was a real, real, like 

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turning point for me in terms of
that real first sense of 

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belonging and that first sense 
of like, oh, this is who I am. 

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But when I look back when I was 
younger and I and I look at 

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different behaviours or 
different thoughts that I used 

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to have, you know, like I used 
to try and convince myself I 

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was, I was happy being a girl. 
And you know, these things that 

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I didn't really know what it 
meant, but there was an anxiety 

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there that that shows so much 
now when I look back. 

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I think it's interesting because
quite often what I hear is that 

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people have to kind of take 
themselves out of their comfort 

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zone, out of their familiar 
situation to kind of fully 

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embrace themselves. 
I, for example, moved to Canada 

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when I was 18, and that's kind 
of when I kind of discovered my 

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sexuality and I came out while I
was living in Canada. 

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Did you feel that it was leaving
home and going to the RF that 

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helped you to kind of recognise 
that in yourself? 

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Oh yeah, definitely. 
I mean, I think you start to 

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question it where you are, but I
think when you step away, you 

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find the permission because you 
see, you know, other people or 

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you might be in a more open 
minded environment or you, 

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you're speaking to different 
people. 

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And I would encourage any young 
person to, to do that, you know,

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especially whether that's the 
military or something else, 

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because it does take you out of 
that, that small town mindset. 

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It takes you out of of what you 
think is the be all and end all 

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and and it's not and it and it 
can show you who you really are,

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especially, you know, it's it's 
it's getting better now, I 

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suppose in some senses. 
But back then I didn't know any 

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gay women in Wigan. 
And so I would have I don't 

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know. 
You question whether or how you 

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would find the courage And and I
like to think that I would have,

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but you just don't, you know. 
You just don't know, dear. 

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So obviously with that first 
kind of feeling in yourself, 

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when you went off to the RAF, 
when do you then think you first

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authentically felt yourself and 
then when did you feel you could

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authentically bring that to 
everything you do? 

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Don't get me wrong, there's been
times in my life where I have 

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felt myself like when you do 
first figure out or, you know, 

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this is different, or the 
military's different, or being 

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gay, being a gay woman's 
different or, you know, playing 

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sport is all of these different 
things where you feel like it's 

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you when you belong. 
And I think there's so many 

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different elements of my life 
where I felt that sense of 

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belonging. 
But I think there was always 

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that little bit missing in being
truly, truly authentic in 

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myself. 
But I don't think I ever had the

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vocabulary to verbalise it until
you find that representation or 

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you find, you know, the 
explanation that fits how you're

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feeling. 
And, and so I've only ever 

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00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,920
truly, truly felt myself since 
since beginning to transition. 

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00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,680
And I only started to to think 
about that when I was about 

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00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:40,160
2627, just because I fell into 
this YouTube hole after 

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00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,040
struggling with my mental 
health, you know, for up and 

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00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,520
down for, well, my whole life 
really, and wanting to fill a 

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00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,560
void or wanting to find 
something that fixes it. 

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00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,280
And when you do that, they all, 
they all run out. 

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00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,000
You know, like the military sort
of filled it for four years. 

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00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,320
Or, you know, you buy a new car 
and it fills it for two weeks 

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00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,080
or, you know, decorate your 
house and you sort you out for a

200
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,560
year. 
But you always sort of come 

201
00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:13,000
crashing down as soon as the 
world goes quiet again. 

202
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,600
So transition is definitely the 
only time that I've really, 

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00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,320
really felt like, no, this is 
this is who I am. 

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00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,200
Yeah, and I think something you 
said on Haunted, I believe was 

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00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,920
it before your family? 
It was going to be either having

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00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,720
a dead daughter or a living son.
That's obviously a massive 

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00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,320
statement and a massive kind of 
thing to have felt in yourself. 

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00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,640
Can you share what you meant by 
that and how that kind of shaped

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00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,040
not only your journey with 
yourself but also your family's 

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00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:54,040
journey as? 
Well, it was one of those things

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00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,600
that when I, when I did sort of 
come out and say I was going to 

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00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,760
transition, obviously it was a 
massive, massive shock for from,

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00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,600
you know, my mum, my dad and my 
brother and my sister. 

214
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,560
And we've always been such a 
close knit family. 

215
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,080
And you know, especially where 
we live and stuff, you know, 

216
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,080
it's not, it's not something 
that you know about. 

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00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,000
And obviously, as we know, like 
there's so much, there's been so

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00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,240
much clumsy representation of 
trans people in the media that 

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00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,840
it does portray a certain image 
or a certain ideal or a certain 

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00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,440
thought that people have 
perception of what trans people,

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00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,040
who they are and you know, what 
they look like and all of these 

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00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,440
things. 
And so especially me and my 

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00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,200
dad's, like we really, really 
bought it heads initially 

224
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,160
because, but it weren't because 
he wanted to disown me. 

225
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,320
It was because he was terrified 
of the world that I was about, 

226
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,760
that I was entering. 
And he was because that's what 

227
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,000
hits a parent more than 
anything. 

228
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,920
It's fear. 
It's like, what are you going to

229
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,000
do? 
How are you going to work? 

230
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,080
You know, I have to lose a 
daughter. 

231
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,920
Like what? 
And so we really sort of boys 

232
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,160
heads because I've made so many 
impulsive decisions in the past 

233
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,640
and, you know, I've been trying 
to figure out who I was or what 

234
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,760
was wrong with me or I was 
depressed or, you know, just all

235
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,680
these crazy things, constantly 
trying to work it out, trying to

236
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,800
find what it was. 
And so he was like, what if it's

237
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,800
the wrong decision? 
You know, we're going to have to

238
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,120
leave Wigan. 
I'm going to end up punching 

239
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,680
everybody for giving you abuse 
and just just this just this 

240
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,600
massive fear. 
And so it reached a point where,

241
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,600
you know, I did have to say 
those things because it was 

242
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,000
absolutely true. 
Like I'd reached a point at the 

243
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,200
age of 27 where I could not be 
just anymore. 

244
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:56,040
And, you know, saying that to 
them and saying, you know, I've 

245
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,600
tried like I've tried with 
everything that I've got. 

246
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,080
You know, I've been, I've done 
all this sport. 

247
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,960
I tried really hard in school. 
Like, you know, I joined the 

248
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,480
military, I'm in the prison 
service. 

249
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,680
I've done this, I've done that. 
I've tried like I bought the 

250
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:10,680
house. 
I've done all these. 

251
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,880
I can't be Jess anymore. 
Like, I've tried so hard to do 

252
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:23,120
it and find a way and I cannot, 
I can't, I can't do it anymore. 

253
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,920
And I'm not killing her. 
She's not going anywhere like I 

254
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,480
want. 
I'm taking her with me. 

255
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,120
And I think that was really, 
really important. 

256
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,200
And I do believe that it is 
really, really important for 

257
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,760
trans people to try and do that 
because I don't think you can 

258
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,760
heal what you can't. 
Look at what you can't 

259
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,520
understand. 
And you know, that person was, 

260
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,640
you know, Jess was 27 years of 
my life. 

261
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,120
I don't want, I don't want that 
to be to be dead, so to speak. 

262
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,000
And I had to go into that with 
an open mind for my family as 

263
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,400
well. 
You know, they've had they've 

264
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,280
had 27 years of the daughter 
and, you know, a child that they

265
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,960
named and thoughts and dreams 
and all these experiences. 

266
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,120
And I don't want to, I don't 
want to take that away and I 

267
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,720
don't want to take it away from 
me there because she got me to 

268
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:19,680
right here, right now. 
And, and so I knew that I was at

269
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,560
the point where I couldn't 
continue living as jazz and I 

270
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,480
just, I didn't want to get rid 
of, I just needed to flip the 

271
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:33,400
image, if that makes sense. 
Yeah, it does. 

272
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,160
And I think obviously it's clear
though, from for anyone who 

273
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,320
hasn't seen it haunted your 
family feature in it. 

274
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,360
We will definitely talk about 
that. 

275
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,640
I love it later on. 
They it feels like they have 

276
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,040
just become the most fully 
supportive and embraced Jackson 

277
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,720
for who you are. 
Oh, they're absolutely 

278
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,880
incredible, you know, and I 
think, I think that has a lot to

279
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,400
do with it. 
You know, they, they've always 

280
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,720
been very passionate about, you 
know, your love, your kids 

281
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,079
unconditionally and that's it. 
Like you're a kid and that, 

282
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,160
that's it, whatever it, whatever
that means. 

283
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,800
And yes, yes, it's hard and yes,
you have to have really 

284
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,640
difficult conversations that you
really don't want to have and, 

285
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,760
and go through those brave 
moments every day and, you know,

286
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,119
butt heads and keep talking and 
keep talking and keep talking no

287
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,079
matter you, you don't want to, 
but you have to keep doing it 

288
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,600
until you find that 
understanding. 

289
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:34,120
And it takes time and it takes, 
it takes me having to think 

290
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:39,240
about how this is affecting them
as well as me and them having to

291
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,240
think how this is affecting me 
as well as them and how we move 

292
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,680
forward. 
And I really tried to include 

293
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,760
them in everything I was doing 
and take them on that journey 

294
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,520
with me as well as everyone else
around me. 

295
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,360
Because like I said, you know, 
they've had 27 years of that 

296
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:56,760
person and they need to 
understand why this is happening

297
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:02,000
and, you know, telling them why 
I'm doing something or why it's 

298
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,640
really important to go on this 
podcast. 

299
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,640
Or, you know, why visibility is 
so vital. 

300
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,760
And they could look at this 
message I've just got from from 

301
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,880
this woman who's whose trans 
child is in hospital because 

302
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,920
they tried to take their own 
life, you know, and just 

303
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,320
constantly like explaining 
things to them so that they 

304
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,360
don't feel as clueless when 
other people ask them questions.

305
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,200
I think it all just made a 
massive difference. 

306
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,120
And over time, as frightened as 
I was, they started to see the 

307
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,880
light come back in my eyes. 
And now they look at it and 

308
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,200
think, Oh my God, that was 
absolutely right. 

309
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,960
Like, you know, and they still 
call me Jess and she all the 

310
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,440
time, like by accident. 
It's, it's not malicious. 

311
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,160
It's my, it's my parents. 
Like they're going to say that. 

312
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,680
They've been saying it for 27 
years. 

313
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,640
So but they absolutely accept 
who I am and that's all I said 

314
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,000
to them, you know, I don't, I 
don't, I don't need you to do 

315
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,560
anything. 
I just need you to try and just 

316
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,240
accept that this is what I have 
to do to remain your child. 

317
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,440
And I think by doing that, it 
really, it really changed them. 

318
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,200
And they say to me now, you 
know, it's especially my mom. 

319
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,400
Like he's taught her so much 
about about people and about 

320
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,960
what might be going on and just 
looking at things in a different

321
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,960
perspective, you know? 
Yeah, that's super interesting. 

322
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,760
I think from there's a there's a
family perspective to it. 

323
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,920
But also, you know, assuming my 
research was correct, I believe 

324
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,160
you transitioned while working 
as a as a prison officer. 

325
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,680
Yeah. 
And I've spoken to other people 

326
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,640
in the past and they've 
explained to me they often felt 

327
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,840
they needed to almost change 
jobs mid during transition, 

328
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,120
right? 
So you leave one job, you 

329
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,480
transition, then you go back 
because they just felt very 

330
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,920
uncomfortable walking back into 
the office one day as their true

331
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,480
self, even though they would 
have felt comfortable in 

332
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,960
themselves, they would have felt
uncomfortable coming into the 

333
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,120
office. 
What was it like for you walking

334
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,760
back into that, especially that 
environment? 

335
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,280
You know my naive perspective of
a prison, that environment as 

336
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,480
your authentic self, and how 
kind of. 

337
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,520
The prisoners and the other 
prison officers kind of reacted 

338
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:26,080
to that. 
I mean, it's definitely not 

339
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,840
something I thought I would be 
able to do. 

340
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,240
Initially I thought I just need 
to, you know, I need to leave 

341
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,560
Wigan, I need to leave my job, I
need to leave everything. 

342
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:41,560
But after a few weeks and after 
I'd come out, I realised that 

343
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,440
I'd always really believed that 
when it feels scary to jump, 

344
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,880
that's exactly when you jump. 
And if I'm going to do this, I'm

345
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,960
going to do it properly. 
Like, and I miss, I want to be 

346
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,680
around my friends and I love my 
job. 

347
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,000
And you know, if I'm going to do
this or die, well then I might 

348
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,000
as well just do it. 
And every decision that I made, 

349
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,800
especially for the 1st 12 months
was I do this or I die, you 

350
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,360
know, I, I come out or I, I 
transition or I die, I go back 

351
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:15,240
to work hard to hi, you know, I 
have these conversations or I 

352
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,400
die. 
And so as extreme as that 

353
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,400
sounded, that's how it was. 
And that's, it was like I was 

354
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,480
just tunnel vision to just do 
that. 

355
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,400
And so don't get me wrong, it 
was the most terrifying thing 

356
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,560
that I've ever done, you know, 
and I've done some terrifying 

357
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,360
things in my life and in my 
career in the military and in 

358
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:38,200
the prison. 
But walking back to a prison 

359
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,920
gates and saying you'd now 
missed a feely after three years

360
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,480
prior of being this female 
officer was one of the most 

361
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:50,560
terrifying things. 
And you know, my mum's biggest 

362
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,560
fear at that point when I said I
was going to go back to where it

363
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,200
was like, well, what's going to 
stop 5 men dragging you in a 

364
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,480
cell and trying to, you know, 
sexual assault, sexually assault

365
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,040
you because, you know, they're 
trying to prove you're still a 

366
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,840
woman, you know, and all these 
things. 

367
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,560
And prisons are very dangerous 
places anyway, despite put in a 

368
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,840
protected characteristic on your
back that a lot of people don't 

369
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,760
understand or disagree with. 
And so I was, I was very aware 

370
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,680
that all those dangers were 
there. 

371
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,720
And then I was making myself 
even more vulnerable than a 

372
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:25,480
prison officer is anyway, 
because on a, on a prison wing, 

373
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,600
you've got, so the ratio from 
officer to prisoner is 1 to 40. 

374
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,400
So it's like 4 prison officers 
to 200 men on a way. 

375
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:42,560
And, and so it's, it's a 
dangerous job regardless or I 

376
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,600
don't know. 
I just had faith that I could 

377
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,600
have these conversations in the 
right way and try and, and try 

378
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:56,880
and show that this wasn't about 
gender for me. 

379
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,760
It was about being a human being
because that's what it was for 

380
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,400
me. 
You know, I just didn't really 

381
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,360
see it as just a gender thing. 
I just, this is what I had to do

382
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:10,440
to stay alive and be happy. 
And all of those prisoners 

383
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,600
needed to do something similar 
to sort the life out. 

384
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,120
And so I worked on them. 
It's called the psychologically 

385
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:22,920
informed plan environment. 
And so we did a cater for a lot 

386
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,120
of prisoners with salty disorder
and people who struggle to 

387
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,560
maintain the relationships or 
manage their emotions, dig into 

388
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,040
their own trauma and stuff like 
that. 

389
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,400
And then we did a lot of groups 
with them to teach them about 

390
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,480
different things or, you know, 
talk and all these things. 

391
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,560
And so when I went back, I just 
all, I just literally just sat 

392
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,240
there and I was like, and I 
looked exactly the same. 

393
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:55,840
I just shaved my ass. 
I honestly it's now and I just 

394
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,000
think, how the fuck did you even
do that? 

395
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,920
You know, I just, I just don't 
understand. 

396
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,160
Sorry. 
Can I start on this podcast? 

397
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,760
Yeah, you're good. 
And honestly, I look back at 

398
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,440
that person and I think, wow, I 
don't know how you did, how you 

399
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,720
did it. 
And I just spoke to them about 

400
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,880
the vulnerability and about 
feeling suicidal and about 

401
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,680
having to do this if I wanted to
keep living or if I wanted to 

402
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,200
live a happy life. 
And don't get me wrong, there 

403
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,480
was abuse and there was lack of 
understanding, but there was 

404
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:36,120
also an element of humanity that
I did not expect from people 

405
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,920
who'd spent 20 years in prison. 
Because they started to realise 

406
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,440
that we are all just human 
beings struggling with one thing

407
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,200
or another. 
And that's, that's, that's what 

408
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,240
it was like they started to 
think, you know what, you can do

409
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,080
that and come back to work and 
help us deal with all our stuff 

410
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,760
whilst dealing with your own. 
Then I can find the courage to 

411
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,840
change my own life. 
And so it just had this impact 

412
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,760
that I just can't even explain 
with, you know, same with the 

413
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,440
officers and the staff. 
Like the prison had never dealt 

414
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,520
with anything like that before. 
And, you know, we kind of, they 

415
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,680
guided me and I guided them and 
they were really supportive of, 

416
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,880
you know, how can we make this? 
Because I didn't want it to be a

417
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,800
big deal, but I needed to be 
safe. 

418
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,160
And so from what people have 
said to me, they felt really 

419
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,800
comfortable because I made it 
known that it's OK to make a 

420
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,040
mistake or it's OK any questions
or it's OK to, you know, not 

421
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,280
have a clue about this because I
didn't have a clue about it. 

422
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,840
Well, I started doing it. 
So how can I expect anyone else 

423
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,120
to be the same? 
And yeah, I just tried to really

424
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,000
make it. 
I still wanted to have banter. 

425
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,080
I still wanted to on the lap. 
I didn't want people to tip toe 

426
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,840
around me. 
I think that's why I'm so 

427
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,080
passionate about about taking 
people on that journey with you 

428
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,600
because it's not just my 
transition, it's everyone around

429
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,680
me. 
It's transition as well. 

430
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,000
Yeah, that is a super 
interesting perspective as to 

431
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,320
kind of, you know, as you say, 
everyone else, family, friends, 

432
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,360
Co workers, people you work with
have to also make a mentality 

433
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:22,080
kind of transition with you. 
Speaking of your time as a 

434
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,360
prison officer, you obviously 
step back into a prison as part 

435
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:30,440
of Channel 4's Banged Up, which 
was incredibly interesting to 

436
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,040
watch as someone that's never 
spent any time in a prison. 

437
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,800
What? 
Was it like to film that? 

438
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:44,520
And then I guess how close to a 
reality of prison life was it 

439
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,920
because these were not, these 
weren't real. 

440
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,880
These were former prisoners who 
had who were asked, being asked,

441
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,880
I guess, to act like they would 
have acted when they were in 

442
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,320
prison. 
Yeah, yeah. 

443
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,400
Well, I was actually still a 
prison officer at the time, so I

444
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,280
I was just swapping one prison 
for another. 

445
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:11,760
But it was, it was as close as 
reality as it could possibly be 

446
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,400
without including the things 
that you cannot show. 

447
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,760
So for example, we couldn't show
violence, we couldn't show 

448
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,960
drugs, could show self harm and 
suicide, you know, all these 

449
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,760
things that do happen very, very
regularly in prison. 

450
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,040
And so the extreme aspects of 
that, obviously that couldn't 

451
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,440
be, that couldn't be be shown, 
but everything else, like what 

452
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,960
absolutely 100% real. 
And you know, I have an argument

453
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,760
on it, absolutely real. 
Like, you know, the when you put

454
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,040
people back into an environment 
like that, it's, it causes a 

455
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,720
massive mindset switch when you 
put people. 

456
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,400
So a lot of those, a lot of 
prisoners and or prison 

457
00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,560
officers, there's a lot of, 
there's a, there's a mental 

458
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,800
aspect of it and a lot of trauma
and you know, a certain persona 

459
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,920
that you have to have going back
into an environment like that. 

460
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,240
And so the ex prisoners, they 
was put into the prison two days

461
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,400
before the celebrities arrived. 
And we run that prison for eight

462
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,960
days, like 24/7, like it was 
prison. 

463
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,640
So you've got people literally 
locked behind a door again. 

464
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,720
And that brings up so much. 
And so for prison officers and 

465
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,360
and the ex prisoners, it brings 
up a lot of, of expert past 

466
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,960
experience and a lot of 
feelings. 

467
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,040
And, you know, especially for 
prisoners, like I'm locked 

468
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,680
behind this door, you know, I've
changed my life. 

469
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,400
Like it's, it's very, it's so 
conflicting. 

470
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,000
But yeah, like everything that 
that happened, honestly, it was 

471
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,080
just, it was so real, like, 
because it just caused those 

472
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,920
behaviours, you know, like, have
you ever, I can't remember what 

473
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,280
the experiments called, but they
did an experiment years ago with

474
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,120
telling people to be prison 
officers and prisoners. 

475
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,720
And it's just human nature. 
And the prisoner started to act 

476
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,440
like prisoners and the prison 
officer started to act like 

477
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,280
prison officers. 
It wasn't either. 

478
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,000
They were just put in an 
experiment. 

479
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:28,880
What like it changes the dynamic
of how you behave and, and the 

480
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,560
celebrities obviously were in 
for an absolute shock, but it 

481
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,880
definitely opened their eyes in 
terms of, you know, what prison 

482
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,000
officers have to deal with, for 
example, in terms of how 

483
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,800
outnumbered they are and how you
manage those situations. 

484
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,160
And a lot of trauma that a lot 
of prisoners have gone through 

485
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,040
and why they've ended up on that
path. 

486
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,640
It definitely, it definitely 
think it definitely opened a lot

487
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,200
of people's eyes who watched it.
But but yeah, it was fun. 

488
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:58,680
And look, it's super 
interesting. 

489
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,560
I do actually recommend people 
watch it is a, you know, it will

490
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,480
make you never want to go to 
prison in your life for sure. 

491
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,640
But also it, it's interesting to
hear the stories of obviously 

492
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:08,960
the stories from the 
celebrities, seeing how they 

493
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120
react to it is kind of the the 
entertainment element of the 

494
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,040
show. 
But it's actually the story of 

495
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,160
the prisoners and how they went 
down the path they went. 

496
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,200
And so many of us can probably 
appreciate those different 

497
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,360
moments in people's lives where 
they make certain choices. 

498
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,840
So that part of it was super 
interesting to me. 

499
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,160
Obviously it's not just banged 
up. 

500
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,600
You also on Haunted. 
I definitely want to talk about 

501
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,000
it a lot later on, but there was
this beautiful, there was this 

502
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,840
beautiful moment on Haunted that
I wanted to kind of talk to you 

503
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,360
about. 
And it was your sister said that

504
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,360
who you were on the show with 
said that seeing you move 

505
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,440
through the world without anyone
questioning your gender would 

506
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,160
mean the world to you. 
How much does that resonate kind

507
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,360
of with your day-to-day life 
now? 

508
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,880
And was there a moment when you 
first felt that? 

509
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,880
When you first felt completely 
unquestioned in who you were? 

510
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,440
Yeah, I mean, she wasn't wrong. 
Like, you know, it does. 

511
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,040
It does absolutely mean the 
world. 

512
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,040
And when we filmed Haunted, it 
was like 3 years ago now where I

513
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,120
was only about 18 months into 
transitioning. 

514
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,720
So I look at hunting now and I 
look like an absolute baby. 

515
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,880
Like I look so young and had 
you. 

516
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,400
Applied before or after you 
started transition. 

517
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,520
No, but after, after I think I 
think we applied about six 

518
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,200
months before filming. 
So it wasn't like a, a long, but

519
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,520
it was all still very new. 
And that I think at that point, 

520
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,400
you know, after a year, I think,
I think it takes you 12 months. 

521
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,360
I think it took me about 12 
months to really to really stop 

522
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,640
having that super, super 
heightened awareness in terms of

523
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,200
how I looked. 
Because it does take, you know, 

524
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,680
when you do, when you first 
start taking hormones and 

525
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,080
testosterone, you want 
everything right now. 

526
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
You know, I was about 27 and I 
knew what I wanted. 

527
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,320
And so you want that, you want 
it all right now, but you have 

528
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,480
to sort of you have to stop and 
then you have to enjoy the 

529
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,920
journey, you know, And I think 
after a year when I'd had chest 

530
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:32,640
surgery, which was a massive, 
massive thing for me, that's 

531
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,320
when I really, really started 
to, to stand up a bit more, 

532
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,840
especially for, you know, trans 
men who, who haven't had chest 

533
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760
surgery. 
It does, it makes you feel very 

534
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,760
uncomfortable. 
It makes you like hunch over 

535
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,600
more. 
I was like strapping my boobs 

536
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,680
down with rock tape and now it's
just full of cuts and blisters 

537
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,160
and it's it just makes you 
uncomfortable permanently. 

538
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,040
And, and obviously you're always
worried about that being exposed

539
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,680
especially. 
Obviously he's an officer as 

540
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,120
well. 
You know, it wasn't a secret, 

541
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,800
but it was also if I got my 
shirt, it's off like that. 

542
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,600
But and so when I had that done 
that, that changed my life. 

543
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,000
That was massively like life 
saving for me and that really, 

544
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,120
really changed. 
And I think then moving into 

545
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,920
things like haunted and just 
being able to like have a 

546
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,240
childhood as Jax with myself, 
like we played. 

547
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,240
On an adventure weeks. 
And it was just, and I think at 

548
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,000
that point I'd really sort of 
settled into transition and 

549
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,280
being Jax. 
And I think it was a really 

550
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:42,120
amazing time for her to sort of 
get to know Jax if that happens,

551
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,280
like, I haven't changed, but 
spend that time and build that 

552
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,240
sort of bond with, you know, 
because we've always been so 

553
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,000
close. 
But that real bond with, with, 

554
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,480
with the work, with the name 
Jax. 

555
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Yeah. 
And it was just, it was really, 

556
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,000
really powerful for us. 
And, you know, it was such an 

557
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,520
amazing experience. 
And yeah, walking through the 

558
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,760
world now and not worrying about
that is, you know, I'm extremely

559
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,040
lucky to have that because not 
everyone does. 

560
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,440
And it's, it is a dangerous 
place to live and be trans. 

561
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,679
And so I think Nick can see how 
much that means and how much, 

562
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:29,320
you know, that would have meant 
to me at the time, because we 

563
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,520
was really vulnerable anyway, 
that we was having to, like, 

564
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,199
approach strangers and yeah, you
know, like it was just. 

565
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,560
And so it really, really built 
my confidence as well. 

566
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,280
Yeah, I can imagine. 
That's so interesting to think 

567
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,800
about. 
You know, obviously we all go 

568
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,840
through our childhood with our 
siblings, all those those who 

569
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,400
had the siblings and you have 
those experiences with them and 

570
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,080
that's when you kind of form 
those relationships. 

571
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,159
But then, you know as you enter 
your into your 20s, you often 

572
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,400
spend less time with your 
siblings. 

573
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,000
So then having that intense time
together again to kind of reefer

574
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,360
and talk about an intense 
experience, it's like, oh. 

575
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,600
God, yeah. 
She wouldn't do it again. 

576
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,520
I would. 
She wouldn't. 

577
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,360
They'll be in All Stars one day 
and you'll get asked so. 

578
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,520
Oh. 
Yeah. 

579
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,960
I don't, I don't think I could 
do it. 

580
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,440
I feel like I'd get caught like 
day one, like I would just have 

581
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,280
no idea. 
Unbelievable. 

582
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,960
We we nearly got caught 
literally as as they like, like 

583
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,120
said go yeah. 
And then we just managed to 

584
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,360
actually get to the end, so God 
knows how. 

585
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,520
Incredible, incredible, super 
entertaining as well. 

586
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,240
Obviously, reality TV is one of 
the kind of many hats that you 

587
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,320
wear as Jackson. 
You know, reality TV, you're a 

588
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,480
speaker, you're an advocate, 
you're a influencer on social 

589
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,960
media. 
How do you find the balance 

590
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,280
between all of those? 
And then how and when, I guess, 

591
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,560
do you unplug and just spend 
time with the Jackson that's 

592
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:09,520
behind the screen? 
I think it's difficult. 

593
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,440
I think, I think it can become 
all consuming and sometimes have

594
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,400
a really negative effect on you 
mentally. 

595
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,600
Like recently I took like August
off because since leaving the 

596
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,240
prison two years ago, my brain 
has just been like, where am I 

597
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,120
going? 
What am I doing? 

598
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,080
What am I trying to do? 
How do I find money? 

599
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,320
How do I keep posting? 
How do I, you know, what, what 

600
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,520
direction is this going? 
Am I getting anywhere? 

601
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,920
Is it worth it? 
And just constantly 24/7. 

602
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,760
And so I reached a point where I
was like, I'm so passionate 

603
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:54,600
about this and what I'm doing, 
but at the same time is my my 

604
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,880
daily happiness, suffering 
because I've got such a strong 

605
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:06,480
passion and purpose for this 
long term, but day-to-day it 

606
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,480
doesn't feed my soul, if that 
makes sense, because it is a 

607
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,680
long term game. 
And so from the outside, you 

608
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,480
know, people might see you doing
all these amazing things, but 

609
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,680
that's taken years to build good
relationships or, you know, it's

610
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,880
post every day because people 
watch you for years are really, 

611
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:37,080
I'm really careful with who and 
what I align myself to and then 

612
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,680
trying to find the balance of 
it, not just being all about 

613
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,400
being trans because that's not 
all that I am and all these 

614
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,400
things that I'm trying to be 
really intentional about that 

615
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:54,840
probably make this take so much 
longer to achieve success or, 

616
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,560
you know, whatever that is. 
And so I've constantly been 

617
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:05,040
going back and forth with, am I 
just really struggling to grieve

618
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,120
being a prison officer? 
Or is it something that is part 

619
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,200
of my core and that element of 
service in my life? 

620
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,240
You know, is it something that I
actually do still need because I

621
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:22,920
miss having both and, and 
obviously it was difficult to 

622
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,040
balance both, but sometimes I 
think we just have to zoom out 

623
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,240
and think, is this feed in my 
day-to-day happiness? 

624
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,720
And, you know, yes, I still want
to keep doing this and I'm never

625
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,920
going to stop, but I have to 
make sure that I'm happy as well

626
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,280
and fill in my own book to be 
able to then keep putting out 

627
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,320
this energy, especially in a 
world that seems to be going 

628
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,280
backwards. 
And so for me, I've really 

629
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,320
struggled to find that balance 
because I'm not very good at, 

630
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,960
you know, not like I've been in 
uniform since I was 19 and the 

631
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,840
last two years, I guess I'm 
really proud of proving to 

632
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,960
myself that I'm OK and that I'm 
fine. 

633
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,280
And then I'm all right on my 
own. 

634
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,880
But at the same time, if I can 
make me happy, then that's what 

635
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,760
I need to do as well. 
And so I'm looking at the minute

636
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:21,400
of how I, how I bring a bit of 
that service sort of background 

637
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,400
and part of who I am into, into 
my daily life whilst I continue 

638
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,840
on on this, this mission of 
becoming a positive 

639
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,400
representation within the media.
And so I do think it's really, 

640
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,840
really hard to find that 
balance. 

641
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,840
And it's really, it takes a lot 
to sort of zoom out and step 

642
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,160
back and actually ask yourself 
those questions. 

643
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,720
And maybe sometimes it's 
questions you don't want to 

644
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:48,360
answer, but it's, you have to, 
you have to find the ability to,

645
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,960
to try and build that 
self-awareness because if you 

646
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,160
don't, you can get so far down 
the line that you can't go back 

647
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,040
or that, you know, you've 
realised you are really unhappy.

648
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,800
And how do I fix this? 
And that's never something that,

649
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,840
that I want. 
But I've definitely learned the,

650
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,760
I've definitely learned the 
difference between being 

651
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,680
depressed and unhappy, you know,
because for a long time, I 

652
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,480
definitely was depressed, 
obviously for different reasons,

653
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,800
especially in terms of 
transitioning. 

654
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,560
But I know now that if I'm 
having a bad day or I'm 

655
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,680
struggling with something, I'm 
trying to figure something out. 

656
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,640
I'm not depressed. 
You know, I might be able 

657
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,120
unhappy about something, but but
in myself and in my soul, I'm 

658
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,120
happy that I've ever been. 
And so I think that's really 

659
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,840
important as well. 
Yeah. 

660
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,920
I also think that the, that that
lifestyle is relatively lonely 

661
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,480
because it's all on you, right? 
Like, I can only think of it 

662
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,600
from doing this podcast is that,
you know, it's on me sat in 

663
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,120
front of a screen editing things
together, thinking about kind of

664
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,520
how this comes together, doing 
outreach and all those sorts of 

665
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,080
elements. 
You don't have that, you know, 

666
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,760
when you're a prison officer, 
when I'm in my kind of day job, 

667
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,280
the other people around you, 
the, the banter from that 

668
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,520
community that support you get. 
So is that something that you 

669
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,760
struggle with? 
Is the kind of the isolation 

670
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,160
element of doing what you're 
doing. 

671
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,280
Yeah, definitely. 
Like I love people. 

672
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,960
I love being around people. 
I bounce off people. 

673
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,840
And I absolutely love, you know,
I love the, the sort of creative

674
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,320
content side of things. 
And you know, and I've, I've, 

675
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,520
I've had an amazing two years 
and I'm so proud of, of what 

676
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,400
I've been able to dive into and 
stuff. 

677
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,520
And I want to keep doing that. 
But yeah, it is, it can be so 

678
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,040
lonely because you're not around
people, are you? 

679
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,880
Not just chatting shit, you 
know, in the morning before you 

680
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,800
crack on with something, or 
obviously being around prisoners

681
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,880
and prison officers and this, 
this whole sense of humour and 

682
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:57,720
dealing with crisis, like 
constantly the world becomes 

683
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:02,640
very quiet, you know, and I've, 
I've sort of had to really learn

684
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,360
to, to deal with the peace 
because I think the peace felt 

685
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,840
really unsafe to me for a long 
time because I wasn't used to it

686
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,960
like peace in here or peace 
around me. 

687
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,160
And so having both made me feel 
very unsafe. 

688
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,840
And, and so it's just about 
learning about all those things 

689
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,880
and bought this industry. 
Yeah. 

690
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,760
Like, I've spoken so many of my 
friends and they, they struggle 

691
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,440
as well. 
You know, it because it is, it 

692
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,200
is, it's quiet. 
It's really quiet. 

693
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:36,720
I think sometimes when you don't
have a structure to your day or,

694
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,800
you know, there's no, there's no
one making you get up in the 

695
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,920
morning or go there or do this, 
you're left with all these 

696
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200
options and you make it kind of 
cripples. 

697
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:54,080
Yeah. 
And like, this is going to sound

698
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,680
really sad, but it's true. 
And it's really important. 

699
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,200
I've reached this point now on 
this decision now because like 

700
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,320
some days I go a day and I've 
not even laughed. 

701
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,640
Yeah. 
Or like I've not spoke to 

702
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,280
someone and I think that's not, 
that's not what I want. 

703
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,760
Yeah, that's not healthy. 
That's not OK. 

704
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,800
And and so I don't want to keep 
diving into that, into that 

705
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,240
hole. 
I need to find that balance. 

706
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:22,000
I need to be around people a 
little bit more to to stay 

707
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,960
myself and keep learning and 
overcoming and keep keep having 

708
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,680
things to then say, you know, 
And so that's kind of the point 

709
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,320
I'm at the moment. 
Yeah. 

710
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,160
And you mentioned kind of that 
idea of inner and outward kind 

711
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,680
of peace. 
And one of the things you've 

712
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,640
talked about kind of in on a 
similar topic is the need to 

713
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,040
take breaks from social media 
and take breaks from your phone.

714
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,840
Why do you think that, 
especially for someone in your 

715
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,040
position and kind of a such a 
large social media presence, why

716
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:56,960
do you think that is so 
important? 

717
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,880
And then I guess what advice 
would you offer to people like 

718
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,440
me who could probably do with a 
digital detox and to step away 

719
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,200
from social media on my phone a 
little? 

720
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,600
Bit you know what, it's the 
first time I've really done it. 

721
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,760
Actually, no tell. 
I obviously did it for three 

722
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,480
weeks on the run and recently I 
did it for for a month. 

723
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:20,640
Yeah. 
And it's just so healthy. 

724
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,680
Like I think especially if 
you're going through a difficult

725
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,160
time or you know, like we were 
just talking about then because 

726
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,040
I'm not around a lot of people 
all the time, you start to pick 

727
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,160
up this phone and you're 
searching for you're searching 

728
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,960
for some happiness or. 
Connection. 

729
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,680
Validation or something to make 
you feel alive, but really what 

730
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,200
you're doing is you're trying to
settle your nervous system 

731
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,120
because that's that's what it's 
doing. 

732
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:57,280
It's, it's because that's become
the addiction or that's become 

733
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,200
where you think the life is. 
You're looking for something to 

734
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,680
settle you settle your unity or 
settle your knees or you know, 

735
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:08,640
and I sometimes I think what 
like, I don't want to watch 

736
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,560
other people live. 
I want to go and live, you know,

737
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:17,960
and so I just think it's really 
healthy because you can get so 

738
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,040
wrapped up in that world, 
especially if you know it's your

739
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,560
job or it's what you're doing. 
And especially in the queer 

740
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:30,240
space and the amount of mega of 
the amount of negativity, it can

741
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:35,240
really pull you in if you don't 
pull yourself back and you think

742
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,480
then that that's all that's 
going on in the world or that 

743
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,960
you know, and then obviously the
more you see it, the more it 

744
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,560
shows you and then you just 
begin thinking that that's 

745
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,880
everything and it's not. 
And we have to try and zoom out 

746
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,640
and go actually does this. 
Like if someone says something 

747
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,200
negative about me, no one cares.
Yeah. 

748
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,120
You know no one cares like 
someone could have someone could

749
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,720
have 100,000 followers and say 
something negative about me but 

750
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,400
if I zoom out does anyone really
care what you say? 

751
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,360
No, like because does that make 
sense? 

752
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,200
Yes, yeah, yeah. 
I don't mean it in terms of 

753
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,640
like. 
Obviously it hurts, but like, 

754
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,760
what's the bigger imperson? 
Doesn't matter. 

755
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,200
But if I zoom out now and look 
at the Earth, is the world 

756
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,720
listening to what you're saying 
about me? 

757
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:26,360
No. 
And so I never ever reply to 

758
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,720
negativity or hate or whatever. 
And I say this all the time to 

759
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:33,360
people who are worried about, 
you know, posting a line or the 

760
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:40,400
negativity is if you do the work
to understand you and know your 

761
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,120
soul 100%, you can appreciate 
the positive, which I do so 

762
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,640
much, but it doesn't give me an 
ego or, or affect who I am 

763
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,680
because if I, if I took the 
positive in, I would have to 

764
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,560
take the negative in And, and so
I can just ignore the hey or 

765
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,600
appreciate the positive. 
But neither one of those tells 

766
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,960
me who I am. 
And I think that's so important 

767
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,120
to know your soul, you know and 
understand that because 

768
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,080
everyone's going to have 
something to say or an opinion. 

769
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,360
But if you know yourself and you
have the ability to allow 

770
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,120
yourself and the people closest 
to you to laugh at your biggest 

771
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,720
insecurities and take the make, 
no one else can touch you. 

772
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,280
You. 
Just got to stay. 

773
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,200
Just just stay true to you, you 
know, and there's so many 

774
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,560
amazing people in the world and 
there's, there's so many 

775
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:38,880
horrible people in the world. 
But if you zoom out, does it 

776
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,360
matter? 
Yeah. 

777
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,880
Does it really matter? 
You know, is it worth ruining 

778
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,320
your day over or getting into an
argument over? 

779
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,880
Or, you know, just focus on you 
and what makes you happy and the

780
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,480
people you love. 
Yeah, I completely agree. 

781
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,120
And I think we've kind of beat 
around the Bush a little bit on 

782
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,680
this topic and I think we need 
to dig into it a little bit 

783
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,880
deeper because I'm a little bit 
late to the party because I only

784
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,440
watched it this year, even 
though I know you filmed it 

785
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,400
three years ago. 
So I need to. 

786
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,600
Talk last year, don't worry, it 
only came out OK, OK. 

787
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,160
I need to talk more about 
haunted because I'm just freshly

788
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,560
obsessed, freshly kind of super 
into it. 

789
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,680
Can you? 
Clearly your dog is loving it as

790
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,040
well. 
We're busy. 

791
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,680
Can you give me a quick run 
through of Haunted and just tell

792
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,000
me about the experience of 
filming it? 

793
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,000
Because I can't quite put myself
in that position at all. 

794
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,440
And what is it like? 
Explain the concepts. 

795
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,520
Yes, if anyone who's unfamiliar 
quickly the concept, but then 

796
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,520
also just kind of that 
experience of three weeks on 

797
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:48,880
the. 
Run. 

798
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:59,400
So there's six pairs of people 
and you set off from with us. 

799
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,240
It was, I think it was picked at
Piccadilly in London. 

800
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,120
And you have to basically just 
go and stay on the run. 

801
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,240
Don't get found for three weeks 
and then reach an extraction 

802
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,280
point at the end now. 
And you'd be basically being 

803
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,840
haunted by police, ex military 
intelligence, you know, all the,

804
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:27,560
all the, all the clever ways 
that the UK will find a very 

805
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,520
dangerous criminal basically. 
And and so you just have to 

806
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,000
remain undetected and if you 
detected, get away. 

807
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,200
Yeah, and so don't take a photo 
at a funfair or something. 

808
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:45,920
Yeah, so, so we, so we started, 
you start with 5050 LB and a 

809
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,480
spare part clause and then you 
just, and then they just say go 

810
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,160
and there's helicopters above 
you and you have to basically 

811
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:59,280
get away and stay hidden. 
It's like a major game of hide 

812
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,200
and seek. 
It's a really big game of hide 

813
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,400
and seek and, you know, and 
there is a lot of different 

814
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,520
things you have to do. 
And because obviously, you know,

815
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,520
if everyone just went and hidden
the field, it would be a very 

816
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:11,880
boring TV show. 
Yes. 

817
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,680
So there's a lot of moving 
parts, but you are absolutely, 

818
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,000
you know, left to your own 
devices. 

819
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,920
And when they are that close to 
you, they really are that close 

820
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,840
to you. 
Did you know your sister have 

821
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,120
like a game plan like ahead of 
time? 

822
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,280
Do you go right? 
This is this is the what we 

823
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,880
think we're going to do. 
And how close did you manage to 

824
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,240
stay to me not. 
Really, you know, we just kind 

825
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,640
of was like we move every day. 
We'll move every day. 

826
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:45,440
We'll never split up. 
You know that that was just that

827
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,320
was just it just we, we went 
into it like we're going to win.

828
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:51,680
Like that's it. 
We're going to win. 

829
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,520
We knew why we were doing the 
show, obviously, because I 

830
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:59,720
wanted to to sort of be this 
positive representation and, and

831
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:04,120
hit living rooms in a different 
way and, and just show who I was

832
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,560
as a person because I think that
is what changes mindsets a lot 

833
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,280
of the time and show how a 
family can can adapt and be OK 

834
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,240
with this. 
And, you know, because there 

835
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,960
there would have been a lot of 
families watching, you know, who

836
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,440
may have not agreed with trans 
people are, you know, struggling

837
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,560
with their own children and 
stuff like that. 

838
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,200
And, you know, we received so 
many messages since as well, 

839
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,520
saying it helped open a 
conversation. 

840
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,000
But yeah, so we knew why we 
wanted to do it and obviously 

841
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,480
wanted to for us. 
I wanted Nick to do it because I

842
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,560
wanted her to prove to herself 
that she could do anything she 

843
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,760
set a mind to and and just for 
our relationship as well. 

844
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,240
And so we were just, we were 
just in it, you know, and it was

845
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:48,800
fascinating. 
Obviously it was both because 

846
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,400
she's a prison officer as well 
was both being prison officers. 

847
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,960
I think they, they found it 
interesting to try and catch us.

848
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:03,120
And obviously my dad's wanted to
be like just the whole the show.

849
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,400
Yeah. 
He nearly got us caught, you 

850
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,120
know, a few times trying to get 
involved. 

851
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,960
And my mum was like, no, it was 
like I'm going to extraction. 

852
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:20,560
She's like, no, you're not. 
So yeah. 

853
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,280
And see. 
That's the All Stars version. 

854
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,720
It's you and your dad. 
That's what would make Oh no, he

855
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,560
moaned about his knee the whole 
time. 

856
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,720
Not a chance Kingpin would not 
survive on the road. 

857
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,280
No, no. 
Too many injuries, too much 

858
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,480
moaning, too much talking to the
camera when he should be 

859
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,560
running. 
No, definitely. 

860
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,360
He definitely had a great time 
and he definitely wound them up.

861
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,600
You know, I think there was 
this, there was this one bit 

862
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,280
that never made it to the show 
where they were trying to 

863
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,600
pretend they'd figured out this 
code that my dad and his friend 

864
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,080
were using where they were 
calling us pies because like 

865
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,680
pies are wicked thing. 
And so my dad and a couple of 

866
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,120
others were like using this 
code, like I've picked up the 

867
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,480
pies. 
Anyway, I think the hunters had 

868
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,520
figured it out. 
And so they rang one of my dad's

869
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,840
mates. 
It was the one of the one of the

870
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,480
headhunters, Ray, and he rang 
one of my dad's mates being 

871
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,720
like, oh, I know. 
It's such a such a body. 

872
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:31,120
Terry's mate, you need to bring 
the pies here, blah, blah. 

873
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,120
And it was just so strange. 
Obviously we didn't know this, 

874
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,840
we were on the road, but he told
us afterwards is my dad was sat 

875
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:43,120
with this mate when they rang. 
And so Nick put my dad on the 

876
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,920
phone and my dad was like, Oh 
yeah. 

877
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,520
And Ray was like, who's this? 
It's kingpin. 

878
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,360
And Ray was like, oh fuck off, 
Terry. 

879
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,320
And put the phone down and he 
was telling us like his veins 

880
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,200
were popping out and he was 
absolutely fuming. 

881
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,960
And so my dad definitely just 
drove him wild and and obviously

882
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,640
me and Nick did did the same so 
many times as well because it's 

883
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,760
just because we knew it was a 
hunter LED show. 

884
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,200
So wherever the hunters were, 
that's what was going to be 

885
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:14,600
entertaining. 
That's what was going to be on 

886
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,560
screen. 
And and I was so passionate 

887
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:22,240
about about the audience getting
to know us for for so many 

888
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:25,640
different reasons, predominantly
being the trans conversation. 

889
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,800
We knew that we had to be 
involved with the hunters 

890
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,960
because we we could have won and
gone undetected for three weeks 

891
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,720
and hardly been on it. 
And, and so and we wanted to 

892
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:43,000
just have fun. 
Like we wanted to get chased. 

893
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,720
You know, we chased when we got 
stuck in mixed yard. 

894
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,960
Oh yeah. 
Yeah, there was so much more 

895
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,880
running. 
Obviously they didn't get seen, 

896
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,480
but being chased like that, oh 
it's just amazing. 

897
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,600
Like we literally ran and died 
in this. 

898
00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:59,960
It would give. 
Me such anxiety. 

899
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,440
And we sat and I, like, sat on 
top of Nick in this Bush and 

900
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,920
she's shouting at me because I'm
sneezing and like, we're getting

901
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,680
bitten and we're just arguing. 
And then we're like, shall we 

902
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,440
just go and do that again? 
That was meant because when 

903
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,560
you're a kid and you run, you're
running for running sake, aren't

904
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,080
you? 
Whereas when you're an adult, 

905
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,640
you never do that. 
Like it's always, you know, 

906
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,680
exercise or just running for 
stupid things that you don't 

907
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,800
enjoy. 
When you're running like that 

908
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,920
and just waiting for this hand 
to get to be on your shoulder or

909
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,720
it's just a, it's the best 
feeling. 

910
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,240
It's. 
So good, It's so good. 

911
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:36,320
It must have felt like being a 
kid again because like, it is 

912
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,240
those games you play as a kid, 
like when it when it genuinely 

913
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:40,920
means something to get caught 
and hide and seek. 

914
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,440
Oh God, when we nearly got 
caught at the end on that train 

915
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,360
and Nick just burst out crying 
afterwards when we've made it 

916
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,360
away. 
Like, that's the feat. 

917
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,240
That's the level of I thought we
were done then, you know, 

918
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,040
because it meant so much. 
And it just meant, yeah, it just

919
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,120
meant the absolute world. 
But if you haven't watched it, 

920
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,560
watched it because it's class. 
I highly, highly recommend that,

921
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,800
and I think it does speak to 
obviously, incredibly 

922
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,600
entertainment. 
It also speaks to the power of 

923
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,160
something you said, which is the
power of entertainment and media

924
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,320
to shine a spotlight, right? 
Because it's a show watched by 

925
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,760
so many people from so many 
different backgrounds. 

926
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,560
That representation is so 
important. 

927
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,240
What kind of has been the 
reaction to it or what was the 

928
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:28,080
reaction to it on social media 
and from people kind of reaching

929
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:32,280
out to you? 
It was very much, you know, just

930
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,000
sort of I think it changed a lot
of people's mindsets. 

931
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,320
I think it really, really showed
a lot of people that you don't 

932
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,760
have to disown your child and 
this doesn't have to be 

933
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,120
absolutely terrifying. 
You know, this is a prison 

934
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,160
officer who's transitioned, who 
you know, is sister's is best 

935
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,560
mate, and you know, they've 
managed to win like that. 

936
00:56:54,600 --> 00:57:02,120
That was so powerful. 
That was oh, sorry, you can add 

937
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,600
it that hours. 
You want that that that was so 

938
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,360
powerful, because it just 
assured people that you can do 

939
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,560
anything you put your mind to. 
You know, this world doesn't 

940
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:17,280
have to stop you doing that, you
know, but you have, you just 

941
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,040
have to set your mind to it and 
be willing to, to have those, 

942
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,840
those hard conversations and do 
those scary things. 

943
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,160
But yeah, like I said, we had so
many messages about the fact 

944
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,200
that it had brought that 
conversation to a living room. 

945
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,360
And that's, that's what we 
wanted, you know, and, and even 

946
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,720
just not, not not even being 
about being, being trans, just 

947
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,440
showing the, the power of, you 
know, a sibling relationship or,

948
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,000
you know, doing something that 
frightened you. 

949
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,640
I've had, I've had all sorts of 
messages off people from like 

950
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:54,320
you inspired me to leave a toxic
relationship to, you know, I 

951
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,640
want to go and do this thing 
that I'm terrified of doing. 

952
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:01,080
And our relationship really sort
of, I think touched people 

953
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,680
because we were just, we're just
so northern and normal like 

954
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:06,840
we're. 
Just so genuine. 

955
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,000
We just, yeah. 
And I'm just really glad that 

956
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:10,880
that came across. 
Yeah. 

957
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:12,720
And because you never know how 
you're going to come across, 

958
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,960
really so. 
Yeah, it's the power of the 

959
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,200
edit, I guess. 
Yeah. 

960
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,520
And I think there was one, there
was one clip that like 

961
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,760
repeatedly goes viral and it's 
something and we're doing our 

962
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,440
interview videos. 
And it was like, what? 

963
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,560
What would it mean to win 100 
grand? 

964
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,040
And I was just like, oh, well, 
I've I'm 10 grand down from 

965
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,480
chopping my boobs off. 
So it would work, would help. 

966
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,400
And like, so many people just 
love this. 

967
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:38,960
It was like just so real. 
Yeah, because I was spending so 

968
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,200
much money just transitioning. 
Yeah, but no, it was just 

969
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,560
amazing experience. 
Yeah, I imagine and I think 

970
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,640
doing with your sibling must be 
incredible, like turning my 

971
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,760
siblings listening to this. 
We could not do it together. 

972
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,040
So let's not let's not go down 
that path. 

973
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,160
But I think it's incredible to 
have done it together. 

974
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,320
You recently announced a new 
book, Fear Proof. 

975
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,320
The courage to let go, begin 
again and do it scared. 

976
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,760
What can you tell me about that?
I'm really excited about it. 

977
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,320
It's something that I wanted to 
do for for a long time and I 

978
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,760
didn't. 
I didn't want to write a book 

979
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:22,800
about me because I think my 
journey is sort of only just 

980
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:30,800
beginning really. 
But I did want to try and use my

981
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:38,240
experiences to help people go 
through change and transition 

982
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:42,400
and you know, and frightening 
things in the life because I've 

983
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:47,640
learned so much from repeatedly 
doing what terrifies me. 

984
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,840
And I've also learned so much 
from from actually going on the 

985
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,480
run, which is the first time I 
had the brain space to read a 

986
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,480
book. 
But those sort of self 

987
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,600
development, personal 
development, self help kind of 

988
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,560
books. 
I've learned so much and I 

989
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,440
gained so much from reading 
books like that, that I wanted 

990
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,160
to try and, and write 1 myself, 
you know, and I'm passionate 

991
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,160
about personal development and 
learn as much as you can about 

992
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:21,760
yourself. 
And, and I did a talk recently 

993
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:28,720
that my friend told me it was, 
it was about having one scary 

994
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:33,560
day, one brave conversation. 
And it made her go and 

995
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,680
completely change her life from 
listening to it. 

996
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:43,200
And since then, that was only in
March, she said to me, you know,

997
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,480
you need to write a book, a book
about that, about, you know, 

998
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,840
having having one scary day, one
brave conversation, one big 

999
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,880
decision can completely change 
the course of your life. 

1000
01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:02,600
And so I basically like went to 
work writing this book and, and 

1001
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,680
hopefully, you know, hopefully 
it can have an impact, but fear 

1002
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:11,480
proof is basically, and I've 
called it that because I think 

1003
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,320
everything I share and 
everything I believe in is about

1004
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:21,120
building a bulletproof mindset. 
Like it's not, it's not that we 

1005
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:25,000
don't want fear. 
Like we actually need fear. 

1006
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,160
We, we want fear. 
We just don't want it to destroy

1007
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,160
us. 
We need to be able to feel it 

1008
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,280
and use it and move through it 
and do it anyway. 

1009
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,800
And so that's why that's why 
it's called fear proof. 

1010
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:46,720
And it's, it's basically about 
feeling like you need to make a 

1011
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,320
massive change in your life, 
feeling terrified to do that 

1012
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,480
because you don't know what's on
the other side. 

1013
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,800
You know, you don't know what's 
going to happen when you jump 

1014
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:02,000
off the Cliff, you know, and the
fall might be really, really 

1015
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,000
long. 
Or, you know, you might be stuck

1016
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,720
at the bottom for a really, 
really long time. 

1017
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,160
And you don't know if you can 
even climb back up. 

1018
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:13,800
And just all this living with 
uncertainty and living in this. 

1019
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,520
I don't know if this decision is
going to be right or wrong, but 

1020
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:24,040
I have to take it, you know, and
I have to be willing to let go 

1021
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:29,520
of all that life that's behind 
me in order to build a new one. 

1022
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:35,240
And I think we always after we 
have to get rid of parts of us, 

1023
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,960
we have to grieve parts of us to
make room for the new and let go

1024
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,040
of of parts of us. 
Sometimes what we don't want to 

1025
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,120
are parts of our life, parts of 
our identity. 

1026
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:49,480
And I've transitioned so many 
times in my life. 

1027
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:55,840
Yes, the gender was the biggest 
one, but it was by far not the 

1028
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,320
only one. 
You know, like I've struggled 

1029
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,360
with leaving the military or 
leaving the prison service or 

1030
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:07,320
leaving a relationship, you 
know, things that we're all so 

1031
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:11,200
terrified of and trying to adapt
to the changes that's go with so

1032
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,760
much. 
And so that is what it's about. 

1033
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:17,680
I love it. 
I think it's amazing. 

1034
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,840
And that's such as? 
Fingers crossed it will have an 

1035
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,360
impact. 
And I think it will because I 

1036
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,280
think you're, so you're so right
in that those moments of fear 

1037
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,520
are often, obviously there's bad
moments of fear, but those 

1038
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,800
moments of fear can often be the
things that then shape you for 

1039
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,240
the rest of your life. 
I think about my own experience.

1040
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,800
I moved to Canada when I was 18 
on my own. 

1041
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,840
That was a huge kind of leap 
that I took and it changed me 

1042
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:41,800
definitely for the better. 
I remember coming out for the 

1043
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,160
first for the first time, coming
out to my sister and just kind 

1044
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,600
of like emailing her closing 
laptop and walking away. 

1045
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,120
You just don't know what her 
action is going to be. 

1046
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,840
So I think that is so important.
I think it will have a real 

1047
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,000
genuine impact. 
When do we have a release? 

1048
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,840
Yeah, so it. 
Comes out on the 20th of 

1049
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,520
November. 
So yeah, it's only coming out on

1050
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,760
Amazon. 
But if, if it can have an 

1051
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,440
impact, if it reaches enough 
people, then you know, then 

1052
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,520
maybe we can, we can make it go 
further. 

1053
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,760
But we'll see, we'll see. 
Fingers crossed. 

1054
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,120
Well, we will share it with this
podcast. 

1055
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:18,680
I'll. 
Be sending you an invite to the 

1056
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,480
launch anyway. 
OK, exciting times. 

1057
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:28,680
OK, well, we started this 
conversation talking about young

1058
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,440
Jackson, so let's revisit them. 
If you could give your younger 

1059
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,920
self one piece of advice, what 
would it be? 

1060
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,840
And would it be different if I 
said what advice would you give 

1061
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:44,240
to a young LGBTQ plus person 
today? 

1062
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:55,320
And. 
No, I think, I think I would 

1063
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,240
always say, I think I would 
always say to the younger me or 

1064
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:03,960
to anyone right now is I would 
always say do it's good all the 

1065
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:09,680
time and I would I've recently 
I've recently heard this and 

1066
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:14,320
I've been saying it loads is if 
your life was a movie right now 

1067
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,120
and the audience was screaming 
at you to do something, what 

1068
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:23,280
would they be saying? 
Wow, Whatever it is, do that. 

1069
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,640
Like the scary decision is 
usually the one that will change

1070
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,920
your life. 
That's amazing advice. 

1071
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,960
Do scared is such a good such a 
good phrase to live by. 

1072
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:35,440
I feel like it needs to be on a 
T-shirt. 

1073
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:36,920
That sounds really, really 
strong. 

1074
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,800
Jackson, thank you so much for 
being on Quit Talk with Me 

1075
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:44,280
Today. 
But more importantly, thank you 

1076
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,000
for all the work you do. 
I do believe so much in 

1077
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,600
representation, but I also think
you're such a powerful speaker. 

1078
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,600
I've seen so many videos of you 
speaking at different events in 

1079
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,240
different circumstances. 
I think what you say is so 

1080
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:56,720
important. 
I think it does have an impact. 

1081
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,040
I think your book will have a 
massive impact on people. 

1082
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,240
So for me and everyone in the 
community, I just appreciate you

1083
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,120
so much. 
Oh, thank you so much mate. 

1084
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:04,920
Thank you for having me.