Hello and welcome back to the Queerest podcast telling the
fiercest stories. This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben
Cechetti. And this week I'm sitting down
with the star and creator of shows like Diana, The Untold and
Untrue Story, Gwyneth Go Skiing, The Fit Prince, and many, many
more. Lena's Carp.
No one would ever cast this Gwyneth Paltrow.
But now I've been able to play characters like that, that I
just feel like I want, I want to do.
Earlier this year, she accepted an award, and Robert Downey
Junior presented her with the award.
And he made jokes about our show as he was introducing the award.
I was like, this is so ridiculous.
It feels somehow almost like more important to do these
ridiculous, stupid queer shows during these times.
It took me so long to sort of like, come to terms with my own
queerness and accept that. And even when, like, I first
came out, it still took like, yeah, it was so many years
before I even felt felt like, comfortable in it.
Even though I barely dad to like, you know, speak to someone
in real life. As soon as you put me on stage
when those situations, I was like, oh, all of a sudden, I
know how to do. I know how to interact.
The quicker you find that and you find your out and find your
people like you will flourish. Before we get to my conversation
with Lenas, I've got a quick favour to ask.
Wherever you are watching or listening to this episode, hit
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So in advance, thank you. Now to my conversation with
Lenas Linus. As always, we will start with
our Queer Panic rapid fire questions and you just respond
with the first thing that comes to mind.
Starting with what's the first album you ever owned?
It's an album called Hits for Kids, which was Hits for Kids
and I got for my birthday. OK, I love that.
Was it like a compilation now 44 * a?
Compilation of like puppets at the time and they released like
multiples. I remember Like Hits for Kids
came out and then the year after when it's my birthday, Hits for
Kids 2 came out and then the following year they've been a
bit quicker and Hits for Kids 4 came out.
And then with that one you even got a Pokémon card as well,
which was even more exciting. Yeah.
Nice compilation albums, Pokémon cards.
It's all our childhood. I love it.
We're already getting into it. Speaking of music, if you had to
lip sync for your life, what song would you choose?
I mean, I feel like, I mean, I feel like which might be a
cheating answer. Maybe I should choose like DA
and a the song from Diana the antelantry story, because I feel
like no one would know that as well as I do and I've got a
choreo to it. So like even better.
But I feel like that's also kind of like a a cheating answer.
So oh, I don't know, maybe something like early Britney.
Oops, I did it again. Maybe.
Oh nice, I love that we have a playlist on Spotify that I get
to add these songs to and we haven't got any Britney on that
yet. I don't think so.
Oh, now I get that back it is. What is your favourite queer
movie or TV show? I mean, I mean obviously like
everyone else I've been watching here to drive through recently
and that's it. Fantastic.
But fav. Oh, God, I should never had a
quicker answer to this. Pride is amazing when it comes
to films, obviously, and it's exciting.
That's being turned into a stage musical.
Yeah. I mean, all that's.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's been
especially like, in the last year or two, like there's been
so many amazing films and TV series.
But, well, I mean, yeah, I'll say Pride, I guess.
Pride's a great choice. I love it.
I feel like everyone should watch it at least once in their
life. And you're right, there's been
so many amazing shows have come out.
Everyone's obsessed with the rivalry.
Who would be? Everyone suddenly loves ice
hockey for some apparent reason. It all makes sense.
Yeah, exactly. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
I am going to say Lil Mass X actually, I love Lil Mass X so
much. And I think, like, what he did
with, like, make being like, you know, one of the biggest stars
in the world at the time and making things that were just
like, so explicitly gay and queer and great.
I like, I do really, really love him.
And yeah. And I hope he's doing well now.
Yeah, we hope he's doing well, but I agree what he's done, you
know, in a genre of music that was historically a little bit
homophobic, meaning hip hop, the fact that he's kind of taken
that and he's so unapologetically queer in all of
his music, I think it's a great show.
He'd be a dream podcast guest as well.
So maybe I'll tag him on this and see if we can get him on.
Here, Yeah. I really wanted him in one of
our shows. So that's like my yeah.
OK, One of those things might happen.
I think you might have a better shot than I do, but we'll see.
I don't know. We'll see, we'll see, we'll
compete. Yeah, who is one person you
would want to hear on this podcast?
I mean, besides little now sex, obviously.
Well, actually this week I went to a book launch for for an
author called Kestrel Guy and who's like this fantastic trans
author who's written many different books.
And I feel like that could be a really interesting conversation.
I love that. I love that.
We will definitely reach out and try and get them on the podcast.
I love having authors on the podcast.
It always is an interesting conversation.
Final of the Queer Panic questions What is one word you
would use to describe your childhood?
Playful. Playful, OK, I love that.
Well, we can dive in a bit deeper on that because as
listeners now I have this theory that you understand an LGBTQ
person as an adult, you first need to understand them as a
young person. So you say playful.
What should I know about you as a child or a teenager to
understand the leanness that sits in front of me today?
When I grew up in a small village in like, the Swedish
forest sounds idyllic. Yeah.
And I think it is in many ways. And like, especially, like now
going back there like this is amazing.
And I think as a kid it's amazing as well.
I think when you're a queer teenager who's into, like, you
know, pop culture and theatre, not maybe they're like, the best
place to be, but like growing up, I think great.
And like, yeah, I feel like I had two siblings and we didn't
have loads of money. So I feel like we were always
the last, like the last people to get like a DVD or, or a
computer. Like for like all the childhood
years I didn't really have. So also I didn't really have
access to pop culture, which really has become what I kind of
work around now. But I think then the playfulness
really helped. Like you created like these
games and magical worlds and things around it, which I think
I still very much do. I think the playfulness has
probably been like the key element throughout my entire
life. Yeah, I agree.
And I think I grew up on a farm and you did have to kind of rely
on your imagination. I think relying on your
imagination more kind of gives you that creative flair and that
playfulness which clearly comes through in your work today.
So obviously pop culture is such a big part of your life now.
When did you kind of first start to have a passion for pop
culture and, and, and kind of that world?
I think always like I, yeah, I like, I remember as a kid, like
there was this like weekly called, it was called Vox Pop.
It was this weekly like, because we didn't have like loads of TV
channels, something we only have like the standard Swedish ones.
And there was this weekly music video show where they show music
videos and you could vote for the winner.
And I was like not having MTV or anything like that.
That was my only, like, way to, to consume music videos.
So, like, that was such like, a highlight of the week.
And watching like, you know, artists like Britney Spears come
through and like, all those iconic music videos was like, so
special and, like, quite formative in a way, I guess.
I agree. And kids today, as I'm going to
sound so old now, we'll never understand the world without
YouTube and TikTok, where you had to sit and wait for your
favourite music video to come up on whatever channel you're
watching, rather than just kind of having at your fingertips
like that. No, exactly.
And there was never a guarantee. And you're like, please, like
let's hope like, you know, there's some new like pop girl
releasing something that that will be on.
Yeah, 100%. I vividly remember being
obsessed with Two Faced by Louise Louise Redknapp and never
they never got played and just waiting for it to come on.
So I'm totally with. It's a great.
Time. I don't think she ever reached
Sweden, you know. OK, I'll send you a link, you'll
love it. Do you remember the first LGBTQ
plus person you kind of became aware of, either in real life or
through pop culture and media? I well, I mean, I do remember
because there was this, like, I remember there's this soap,
there was this soap in Sweden that was set on a boat or like a
big like cruise ship basically. And I'm not a cruise like a
ferry with like the people working there and so on.
And there was a relationship, which I mean, clearly was a
homosexual relationship. And I remember watching like
these two men kissed for the first time.
But because there was such like an innocent child and also like
homosexuality just wasn't talked about.
I mean, I know Sweden's a progressive country, but I think
I was brought up like in the countryside and in like a
Christian upbringing as well. So I wouldn't say that I heard
homophobia, but it was just like, it was just never talked
about. I didn't even realise that was
something that existed. So seeing like these two men
kiss, I was just like, oh, they're just very good friends.
Like my understanding of the situation, which is quite funny.
But I think I drew, I do remember that kiss.
And then in Sweden Melody Festival and which is like our
Eurovision selection process is so huge.
And I feel like that's probably where where I first saw like
homosexuality, like, yeah, it's like queer expression really.
Yeah. I mean, which was great.
And it's something I love. But it was also when you only
see it in this, like, glitter, flamboyant, outgoing way.
It's weird to be like when you then start thinking like, oh,
maybe there's something me, but I'm not like that all the time,
although like, maybe I am now. But then you're like when that's
the only, you know, the only version of homosexuality you
see. That also gets a bit confusing.
Yeah. Do you remember them when you
first, you know, so many of us kind of remember that first or
those early feelings, that early sparks of our kind of quanquo in
a queerness. Do you remember when you first
felt that in yourself and then kind of kind of how you
navigated that? I don't, I don't know if I
remember the first. I mean, I was like I've always
been. Well, it's just like I loved
dressing up and I especially like we had a dress up box and I
would always put on the dresses. I mean, I still do.
Something's never changed. Yeah, and it would often be like
my older sister would dress up as a man and I would dress up as
like a woman and we would play like, you know, husband or wife
or whatever, which is quite funny.
I mean, she's she's a straight woman now.
So it's not like that. But but I mean like that's that
that would really definitely to be be a queerness.
I remember getting like tasks and cartoon cartoons and I was
like, Oh, this is quite not that.
I not that it was anything sexual about or anything like
that was just like, oh, it's just quite nice to look at this
muscling man in the forest. And not like I never like
connecting it any further than that obviously.
But it's just like, oh I enjoy reading this for multiple
reasons probably. That's understandable.
So when do you think you then felt that?
You know, when did you feel authentically yourself?
And then when did you feel like you could just bring that
authenticity to everything you do?
Clearly, because you do, you are such an authentic person and
everything will come across so authentically and everything you
do. When did you feel you could just
bring that? Thank you.
I'm glad I've had I have you tricked.
I well, I think it took a really long time because I think, I
mean, growing because I'm in my early 30s now.
And I think so much has changed in like the last 10-15 years
that like when it comes to queer visibility in particular, like
it took me so long to sort of like come to terms with my own
queerness and accept that. And even when I first came up,
it still took like, yeah, it was so many years before I even
felt, felt like comfortable in it.
And I think, I mean, I think theatre and finding your
community really helps a lot as well.
Because I feel like when I started doing theatre and making
friends that you like from being like this very awkward, unsure
of himself person, I then found something that was good at and
something that felt right doing like even though I barely dared
to like, you know, speak to someone in real life, as soon as
you put me on stage when those situations, I was like, oh, all
of a sudden, I know how to do. I know how to interact.
And I think that really like how it leaped forward.
Yeah. So definitely took like it was,
it's such a long journey. And I think that's the thing
that will especially probably straight people don't realise
like it's not just coming out, it's after that.
It's still for in my case, like many years before you even start
to feel like accepted as your and ready to like, you know,
embrace your identity and and be loved basically.
Yeah, I also think people don't kind of understand that you are
forever coming out. Like you constantly coming out
to people, constantly telling people.
I think a lot of us do it as like almost a security thing.
We want to make sure people know before they kind of have the
opportunity to say anything that we might take offence to or that
they might regret. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's
good now because most of the people I work, oh, like I meet
is through like some kind of work context where I'm often,
you know, like dressed up a screen of buzz with phrases by
Hannah and. Spit a giveaway.
Yeah, I feel like I don't actually have to come out
anymore. But then it's always weird when
you're suddenly like, put in a situation for whatever reason.
We're at like some kind of place and most people are great and
people obviously don't know you. And I'm like, oh, I kind of
forget that that world exists as well.
So because so often I live in my bubble where like most people
are queer or queer adjacent at least, or queer friendly.
So like you're. Yeah.
And then you're like, oh, this is, you know, 90% of the
population who? And all of a sudden it's not a
given that I'm I'm gay. Yeah, well, the bubble sounds
fabulous. It sounds like a great place to
be. It is.
I'm trying. I try never to leave it.
I can appreciate that. I do want to talk about your
work. You obviously mentioned getting
into theatre and obviously what you do today with Awkward
Productions. Can you just talk me through
that career journey and then what led you to establishing
Awkward Productions and all the kind of incredible shows you put
on now? So I've always, I mean, ever
since the young age, I wanted to be an actor.
So that's always been like my main guiding light almost.
So I trained in Sweden before moving over here.
But then the first few years here and still when it comes to
casting, I feel like it's it can be very hard to be seen,
especially like if you haven't been to a drama school here, if
you are like, in my case, foreign, that's obviously
limiting doors as well. And and like weird and queer as
well as I feel like I was so rarely seen for anything.
It would be like the occasional like, oh, hey, we want a German
receptionist with one line. You can be seen for that.
Like it was never like they are. I feel like you can be very it's
very limited what you're seen for.
And I think it's great that we've had so much like diversity
has really opened up, obviously in the last years and and people
of all abilities are seen for various things.
So like, you know, all races, all genders, etcetera.
And that's great. But I still think that when it
comes to people who don't have English as a first language,
they are rarely seen for can I rarely seem for as much because
like, we're actually such a large part of the UK population
but aren't really represented in the same way on screen or stage.
So I really set up the company to I found this play that I
really loved, which is a really strange play called Awkward
Conversations with Animals. I fucked and it's a pre-existing
play written by Rob Hayes and I found it in a bookshop and I was
just like, what is this? I read it and I fell so in love
with it because it's so dark and twisted and hilarious and really
poignant and like emotional as well.
So I was like, this is such a great piece of theatre.
I really want to stage this. So I first had this idea like,
you know, if I put on a play and this feels like a character that
I could do well, then hopefully, you know, I'll be just casting
things after that. So I staged it and it did well.
It went to the Fringe, it toured the UK and I had a lot of fun
with it and it got good receptions but didn't
necessarily lead to me being casting things.
But what it did lead to was me realising that actually I can
put things on and I'm quite good at, you know, like organising
something. So then I sort of started taking
that further by writing and creating my own shows as well,
making them sort of like more and more queer as I was doing
that. And that worked like one thing
just led to another and it's sort of like, you know,
snowballed. And now I've been like, you
know, in the last few years I've been fortunate enough like have
it as my full time job and tour both the UK and the world with
it, which has been very exciting and something I never really
predicted. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible
journey. I'm curious, obviously writing
and producing and then also performing in there, is that
part of it that you enjoy more? Do you enjoy the kind of sitting
down and the creative process of writing it, or is that really a
means to the end and it's the performance part that you
actually are kind of so excited about?
I think acting has always been my like my main love.
So I feel like I would, I do really enjoy writing, although
like that's obviously very scary because you don't know if it's
going to be any good at that point.
But I do think I like writing when I know that there's like,
you know, when I know I'm going to get to perform it and I'm
writing it to myself. I think it would be, I mean, I
obviously would be happy to write other things as well, but
I feel like I kind of want to know that it's happening and
that I like I'm doing it for myself so that I get to perform.
So yeah, I do love performing, but I do kind of like all all of
the creative aspects. Like I love the writing, I love
the directing and create it like really making it all like, like,
like, you know, being true to your vision and finding
something that that you feel like is important and you you
can be very proud of. I think that's what I've really
enjoyed by doing it because obviously, like normally when
you're an actor or something, you don't get that much of A say
of what the actual product is. But it's been nice to be able to
have like, you know, such a creative input and being able to
tell stories that probably wouldn't be told in the way
otherwise. And also cast myself in roles I
would like. No one would ever cast this
Gwyneth Paltrow. But now I've been able to play
characters like that, that I just feel like I want, I want to
do. So that's been very freeing.
But but same time, I'm quite tired of running a business.
I don't want to do all the admin and producing side of it.
Yeah, I can imagine. But obviously that you mentioned
a few characters already. And for anyone who is kind of
discovering your work for the first time, your work spans
shows like Diana, The Untold and Untrue Story, Gwyneth Go Skiing
and most recently The Fit Prince.
When you look at that body of work, where did those ideas
usually come from? Like he takes something like a
Gwyneth go skiing. Where did that kind of where
those concepts come from? And then how do you kind of
establish them and and bring them to life?
I think all of our ideas have come from from from what feels
fun. Like the first show I wrote was
about it was called How to Live a Delica Life.
It was about the cats, the film Cats that I became so obsessed
with. And I think it was just like
feeling that this is something that I am thinking about all the
time. And I have so many thoughts
about that. I could be like, you know, I
never thought at first that someone would want to see a show
based around, you know, a film that did quite terribly.
As much as I love it, it's not it's not a university loved film
and. You might be the only person
obsessed with it. Exactly so I was like, oh, but
then I was like when you actually are and the same with
Princess Diana came then came from I had started Joseph's my
husband, who I also create the shows with his mum is obsessed.
Well, like we kind of like bonded over Princess Diana means
and she said Princess Diana fan. So when she turned 60 a few
years ago, I was like, I'm going to write her a little Diana
story. And then that sort of like grew
into the show, sort of like when you find I've, I've realised
like it's rarely when I create a show, it's rarely the one, I
think it's going to be the next one that ends up being the next
one. It's whatever feels like, oh,
I'm actually drawn to this and having a lot of fun with this.
And then why not try and explore that further?
Like when Gwyneth Paltrow had a ski trial, we were watching that
and I was like, I think there's a show in here.
This is just too like ridiculous and golden.
And luckily there was a luckily people like that one really like
got got a lot of like press attention, which is great
because I was so scared that people wouldn't remember the
trial by the time we announced the show because I was like,
people move on so fast. So it's kind of like.
You've kept the trial alive, which I'm sure Gwyneth is
thrilled about. Exactly.
I'm sure she is. Yeah, yeah.
We recently performed it in LA and I tried to, we tried to get
her to come along. We tried to invite her, but
she's still she still hasn't been.
OK, one day. One day.
Yeah, yeah. Many people involved in the case
has actually come to see it at this point.
And that's been really fun. And she's well aware of it.
And she recently, earlier this year, she accepted an award, and
Robert Downey Junior presented her with the award, and he made
jokes about our show as he was introducing the award.
I was like, this is so ridiculous.
Yeah. So yeah, fingers crossed one day
she'll attend. How do these moments feel
though? Like when you see like, jokes
being made about, like, Robert Downe Junior, Making this
comment like that must feel surreal to know the reach of
something you've created has reached kind of that level.
Yeah, yeah, it is surreal. It's like, it's weird.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's weird when you're like the people who
especially people like, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and
Robertani Junior, who's like, as someone who loves pop culture
and and films, like since I was a child, I've been aware of them
and like seeing them. So to have them like, you know,
talking about something created feels so ridiculous.
And like, yeah, it's, it's just, yeah, it's just fun and, and
really, really weird. Like I heard from someone that
the royal palaces had like instructed their staff and I
advised their staff not to come and see the Diana show, which I
always thought was hilarious. I'd be like the royal palaces
are discussing this this show, which isn't very pro monarchy.
So you know, probably fair enough that they don't want that
staff to go and see it. But like it's so fun.
Was like these people are talking about about those shows.
Yeah, I love it. And you mentioned obviously your
partner in Awkward Productions is also your partner in life,
your husband, Joseph Martin. I'm curious to know which came
first, the creative partnership or the relationship?
And then how do you stop Awkward Productions becoming, you know,
to use a Diana reference, the third person in the marriage?
Well, it is the third in my marriage.
We were, we were partners before we started working together.
So we had like been together for I think three, 2-3 years before
we actually started working together.
And it was when I was putting on this, this first show.
And he'd been working as a assistant producer in radio at
the time. And so I sort of like got him to
help out with various bits of the show.
And it's sort of like Co produced ended up like operating
it for part of the round as well.
And and I guess we all like we also work well together.
And then like as I created more and more shows, like the first
couple of shows I sort of wrote, even though with like input from
him, he sort of became more and more involved up until I think
Gwyneth is the one that really changed it, which is like
properly A2 hand where we that we wrote together.
So his involvement just grew and grew for each show really.
And, and it's, I mean, it's nice because I feel like people often
say like, oh, how can you? Like, I could never work with my
partner or things like that. And I feel like that's not that
everyone needs to work with a partner, obviously, but like he
is the person that I have the most fun with and that I enjoy
spending the most time with. So I'm so glad that we can share
all of this because it would, I mean, it would even if he wasn't
involved, it would have been amazing to, you know, like take
the shows to New York and LA and Australia and so on.
But the fact that we can do that and share that together is even
more special and fun. But obviously it's hard to, to
switch on because I feel like we are working all the time.
And I, I think I don't really have any limits when it comes to
my work schedule, which he has a little bit more.
And I know that there are times when, you know, like I, if I
start asking work questions, either when he's just waking up
or like at midnight, he's not always thrilled.
I don't understand why. I'm very shocking of him.
So yes, I'm trying to replace him.
No. But like obviously there are
challenges, but I think there are the pros out ways, the cons
definitely. Yeah, I think sometimes it can
help. My husband works in the creative
world, so I think it sometimes helps to have someone to share
ideas with that. Can they be that first kind of
judgement call, right. Like it can be very difficult if
you're working solo on something to not have that Sandy board or
feel like you need to take it outside kind of to get that
sandy board. So it must be nice having each
other to say, is this a funny idea or is this a terrible idea?
And also we, I think it also saves so much time because it
can be so direct. Like when you know someone that
well, if you know, if we are writing something, one of us has
an idea and the other one can just be like, no, this isn't
good where it's obvious. Like, you know, if you're
working with someone else and they're pitching something, be
like, Oh yeah, maybe we can try. I feel like we just save so much
time by just being like really direct on everything.
And obviously like if someone wants to try something, we often
will try it even if the other one doesn't like it.
But I think it really helps to to have that very direct
communication. Yeah, I love that.
And you got married at the fringe, right?
That's kind of what I read anyway last.
Year. Yeah, we did.
It was kind of a silly idea. That course sort of just like
snowballed into actually getting married live on stage.
We had we had, but I should say that we had a small wedding in
September that was already planned.
But our friend who's a brilliant comedian and performer, Sam
Carlisle, she was going to officiate that because we wanted
to like want her to do. We wanted to keep it personal
rather than having, you know, paying less of money to have
like a random person coming in to do it.
So we just had to do like it legally before then.
And we were just going to go to like our nearest register office
and like sign the papers. But here in London at least,
like where we live, it was like you could only do that like once
a month. And it was booked up for
multiple months. And like, it was really hard to
find the time. And we were touring as well.
So like, I don't know where we can find the time for this.
We should look at doing it somewhere else.
And then I thought like, well, we're going to be in Edinburgh
all of August and Edinburgh is like very like special place for
us that we would take gun to the French so many times.
We have so many amazing experience together there.
So we were like, why don't we do it in Edinburgh?
And then we're like, what if we're going to do it in
Edinburgh during the French? Why don't we do it?
That's where everyone would go with that line of thought, yeah.
Exactly. So we had like, you know,
special performances and there's a woman from the Edinburgh City
Council called Jackie Blackburn. And she was hilarious because
you didn't know always like a dude, you were just assigned
someone. And I was quite consecutive,
like we're going to do it in this like in Clapham Arabs or in
Pleasance Ground, which is this like 600 seater venue.
And I was like, I hope she knows what she signed up for.
And she was hilarious. Like she was so funny, so great.
And it was a very like, ridiculous, but special day.
I love that and people I assume had to pay to come and watch you
get married which is not not a bad.
Thing exactly, and that's obviously because weddings are
so expensive, crazy and actually by doing that as like, you know,
as sell out and ridiculous as it's as it sounds, we kept the
tickets cheap, I should say. But Even so, like people then,
all that money actually helped fund our actual wedding, which
was really useful because, you know, when you work in the arts,
money can be hard to come by. You seem curious about the
fringe. I've never been.
I had Jordan Grey on the podcast and she's performed multiple
times. Yeah, Fringe.
How would you describe the fringe to someone who's not
familiar with it? Oh, you have the.
Experience. Of it OK.
I, I think it's, well, it's very hard to describe.
It's one of those things that you really have to experience to
really get, but it is, it's so amazing always like there are so
many downsides with the, with the fringe as well.
Like it's very expensive. It's, you know, it excludes so
many people by like, just like the cost of going there and
everyone UPS their prices. It can be really hard.
And it's, it's one of the like most challenging months as a
performer or as a creator that you can do.
But there is nothing like it. And it is so magical and it's
just this bubble of, you know, theatre and comedy and
creativity and you can see all kinds of shows from all over the
world. And you meet so many amazing
people every day. Like every, I feel like every
day at the Fringe feels like a week.
You just experience so much and it is like, it is magical and
there is nothing like it. And we have really found our
audience and our home there. And I do love, I do love it
there. Amazing.
And are you doing the same show every night?
Does it give you an opportunity to test things kind of what's
the process for you from as a creator there?
You can do quite a lot of different things.
I think most people will do the full month with the same show
because you get like a time slot and like you apply for a venue.
So what we have done in the last few years has been to do our
latest show for the full month and then we have done usually
like our previous show for a week or a week and 1/2, which
also because the Fringe is so expensive, by doing more than
one show, we obviously just earn a bit more money as well.
However, it is so exhausting. Like I always feel like when we
get to the end of that month because you are constantly
switched on and you're running around and you always want your
show to sell and you often have like flyering as well.
You're watching all the shows, you're meeting so many people,
you're having some drinks and you're performing every day and,
you know, doing press. Last year was like we organised
a wedding in the middle of it as well.
Because a few shows wasn't enough.
No, no, exactly. And then we get to the end of it
and I am just a wreck. I remember coming back from the
Fringe in 2023 and I always like have a big crash when I come
back from the Fringe. And I was everyday, you know,
when you feel like, oh, today I'm going to have a today is a
bad day, but that's OK and I'll get going tomorrow again.
So every day I would go to the corner shop and I would buy a
Doctor Ruskin mozzarella pizza and I would buy a chocolate bar,
the same chocolate bar every day.
And my plan was always like, tomorrow I'll get like, I'll get
back on. Track.
This went on for two weeks until I went to the corner shop and
they were out of both the pizza and the chocolate bar and I was
like OK, this is a sign I need to to get back on track now.
Yeah, It must be a mixture of coming back from that.
You must be exhausted from doing it, but and then there also must
be a bit of a come down from being that kind of intense
experience. Do you come back thinking I
never want to dress up as Gwen Powder ever again?
Or do you come back saying I now want to see what else I can do?
And I think, I mean, and never that you don't want to do it
again because it's also like, it is such a high.
And like, we have been very fortunate in like in the last
few years that we have like achieved a level of success at
the Fringe. Like we have, you know, sold out
many shows, won awards and things like that.
So it is such a high and, and it's weird to be like in that
specific environment and that specific bubble, that is where
we are like, you know, the most known, the most celebrated.
And that is a very like, exciting feeling.
And and to go from that back into like, you know, you like
your own apartment and like, oh, nothing is happening.
You don't get like these like emails or reviews coming out
almost every day. You don't have, like, you know,
people applauding you every day. Walking down the street, going
to the corner shop. Everything so quiet, like my
phone's gone quiet because normally, like, you know, you
get messages, see people constantly that you know, and
that you love and often, like, you know, people from all over
the world and you bump into, you know, like various celebrities
on the street maybe, or whatever, like.
And then yeah, like it's such, it's such a weird high that
obviously you can't sustain. Like doing that for a month,
It's definitely enough in itself.
But then you come back and the world just feels so grey and
empty and you probably feel like the tiredness properly because
it's like you barely switch off for that full month.
So it's such a weird come down. But I also feel like I I love
it. And sometimes I think like maybe
I wouldn't go to the fringe like next year, depending on, you
know, what happens in the career or what else we could be doing.
But then and it and it is so much work as well.
And but then I'm also like, I would have such FOMO not going.
Yeah, Yeah, you would. Yeah.
OK. I feel like I'm sold.
I'm gap to go. Maybe when you do your next new
show, I'll have to come and check it out.
No excuse to come. We're kind of at this weird
stage from a pop culture perspective where it feels like
queer culture has almost never been more popular.
Queer culture has become such a core part of just pop culture,
but also at the same time, kind of queer lives have become
increasingly politicised globally.
How do you, in kind of what you do, hold those two realities at
the same time, the kind of the queer culture aspect, but also
in recognising the political politicisation of queer
individuals. So that was a real hard turn to
a really serious question. Yeah.
But I mean, it's a great question because it's also like
it's something, I mean, that occupies my mind a lot.
And it's it's such a it's such a weird dark time.
And it feels weird because it's been like that for a long time.
Like it feels like it's the continuation.
So, you know, at the same time that we have so much queer
representation, so much good queer representation.
And yeah, as I said earlier, there's been so many like great
TV shows and films, etcetera about like that are queer.
But at the same time, you know, like our rights are being
threatened and especially like trans rights are being so
threatened at the moment, which is terrifying.
And, and I do feel like because the work we do is, I mean, some
of it is more political than others, but, and I wouldn't say
that all of it is super political, but I think there's a
level of politics to it. And there's also something I
feel like very important and defined about queer joy,
especially when there isn't so much.
And I do think that often queer stories can be very dark and sad
and, you know, because there's always because, because there's
a lot of dark and sad things that are important to talk
about, of course, but like AIDS and bullying and homophobia and,
you know, sad coming out stories and things like that.
And those stories obviously need to to be told, but I think it's
very important to also have spaces that are full of queer
joy, especially when the world isn't necessarily reflecting
that. So it is weird.
And like, we have just come back from the States and it's a very
weird time in that country, as it is in many other places as
well. But it feels somehow almost like
more important to do these ridiculous, stupid queer shows
during these times. And I do think people are like
more ready to it. And it's sometimes people can
come up, I mean, like, I haven't laughed like this in a long
time, like. And and that's I think, yeah,
like sometimes we forget, like the importance of comedy as
well. Like comedy is can be so
powerful and so important and that should not be be lost.
Like art doesn't. Art can make you think and
entertain you at the same time as well.
Like laughing together in a room is very cathartic and very
important. Yeah, I agree.
I think it's such an important role to play.
It breaks down barriers, it breaks down kind of pre
preconceptions people have. I think when you make them
think, but also at the same time make them laugh.
And I also agree with the idea of I think the stories that kind
of focus on queer joy are just as important as the ones that
focus on, obviously a lot of the the hard things.
I take a show like a heart stopper that is so pure and so
focused on the joys of these very young characters kind of
finding love and finding their queerness.
I think that's just as important as say, a it's a sin, which
focused on kind of more of the AIDS Christ in the 80s.
So I think that balance, you're right, is so important to kind
of get them both told and give people outlets for both outlets
to think, but also outlets, I guess for escaping.
Is that kind of what you see your your shows as?
Helping people escape from some of the reality?
Yes, absolutely. And, and I also think just
creating spaces that are queer and full of queer joggers.
I feel like I've always, I feel like as queer people, we always
have to fit into like what is at most times a non queer world.
And I think with all our shows, we want to create a room that
is, that is queer. We're being queer is the norm.
And obviously everyone, whatever sexuality are welcome to attend.
We take money even from straight people.
But but like, you know, for example, in Diana, many of the
we have a lot of audience interaction in the show and many
of the roles are not just called, you know, fan or
scientists. We name them like gay fan and
gay. And it's like we label everyone
in the room there as gay or queer rather than the opposite.
And then, you know, any straight people will just have to adapt
to that rather than us as queer people having to adapt to
straight narratives, which are like, you know, 95% of the
narratives whenever we, we consume culture or we go into
spaces. 100% how do you kind of deal?
You know, you've obviously had such an incredible run and it
feels like everything you're doing right now is on in such a
kind of a level of success, which is amazing.
How do you deal with that pressure though that comes with
that success? And then I guess is there this
fear of, you know, kind of constantly having to top
yourself and top what you did last time?
I like topping so it's fine. So to speak.
I I mean, I do think it is scary and like I'm working on
something at the moment, which is, would be quite different
from everything we've done so far.
And that feels very scary right now.
And I don't I'm like, I don't know if this will be any good or
if I'll be able to share this or if but yeah, we'll see.
I but, but in terms of the other shows, I feel like obviously you
feel those things and it is always scary.
And when you've had what what has been nice, like all the
Force four shows that we've created have sort of like quite
organically grown and they've also like all have done very
well. It's like they've all been very
like, yeah, like people do really like them.
They've all had like good praise.
They've all had great reviews. So it is always scary when
you're like, well, at some point would do a flop I.
Didn't believe it. I didn't believe it.
But at the same time, like, you know, you, you get to know
yourself better and I think you involve as an artist.
So like you get another skill set as well.
So like I'm not as scared in I, I know like I know my craft
better, I guess. So like I now know a bit more
what works and how to do it. So that I am, I think whatever I
create will have at least like a base level that is higher than
than it would have had a few years ago.
But yeah, I mean, and ultimately it's always.
I think you can never you never know what if what you're going
to do is going to resonate with people.
You can never like with something like Prince, the Diana
show. We were very fortunate in a way
in the timing because like we a couple of months before that
first opened, the Queen died, which at first I was like, this
is terrifying. Just now.
I feel like everyone's going to want to cancel this show, but
but it's sort of had the opposite effect because everyone
started talking about Charles and Diane and Camilla again.
And then, you know, like how we released this book and there was
the coronation of Charles and all of a sudden and, and the new
seasons of the crown as well, which we were very Diana focused
and all of a sudden, like Princess Diana was at the
forefront of people's minds again in a way she hadn't been.
So I feel like that really helped.
We could never always have planned that.
But you never really know when a show was going to catch the
zeitgeist in the way that batted.
And similar with Gwyneth Paltrow showing that like, we could
never have, as expected, announcing that little show,
which first like was only going to have a London run that that
would like get The New Yorker and New York Times and TMZ and
Variety talking about it, which was just ridiculous.
So I think you, but but my original point was just, I was
you can never control what other people think or will react about
your shows. I remember when I started out
how there were like certain people who I really wanted to
impress. I want to come and see my work.
And which I mean rarely happened.
And when it did, they didn't necessarily have the response
that I'd fully hoped. And then I'm like, I can, you
can never, you never know what people are going to respond.
You can never control what they are going to respond to it or
what they want to see. But what I can do is make shows
that I want to see and that I enjoy and that I am proud of.
And I feel like that's the most important thing, which sounds
really wanky, but like ultimately, like you can never
rely on on other people's thoughts.
The only thing you can somewhat control is your own, like your
own creation and what you want to tell.
Yeah, I completely agree. And you know, trusting your own
instincts and knowing, you know, what you find funny, you have to
I guess hope other people are going to find funny and find
thoughtful and that ability. I guess.
Do you have people that you do kind of like bounce ideas off to
say, do you think, you know, before we start going too far
down this this line, do you think this is, am I right?
Is this funny? Is this thoughtful?
Is this what people are going to want to watch?
Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously it's good to have Joseph and I
together because like we can quite easily stop each other if
one goes down like a rabbit hole.
We're like, well, this is funny for us, but it's actually like
this is too niche or this is, you know, like, well, let's keep
track on the actual story. And then we've also like, you
know, developed a lot of great collaborators who who work on
the show. And I think some of them have
said to us that like it's rare, like states managers and things
like that. They've said like it's rare that
we actually get asked by directors or writers our
opinions as much as you do because I feel like it's good.
And also like, it's not that you necessarily always like if you
get an opinion, it doesn't, you don't have to agree with it or
go with what they say. But I think it's always
interesting to to because always like there are people who are
creative and who, whose work we love and who trust.
So it's always worth like getting input from as many
different angles as possible, Like when I was when I was
creating Diana, for example, because I was like, I'm now
creating a show about like, you know, a woman and her breaking
free from her marriage and so on.
And as like, you know, a man doing that.
I want to make sure that it's not see like that I, it never
comes across as like sexist or that I'm just like, you know,
mocking anything like that. So I think that was important to
have those conversations. And I'm like, yeah, I feel like
it becomes such a collaborative process and it's really exciting
to see how, you know, you give people the brief or ideas and
have them like elevate that where they come up with like
design elements that we would never have thought of.
Or when we work, we have a lot of like video performers and
they will bring things and add little things like colours or,
or even lines because we're like, we are very free in and
want to make sure we get loads of different versions of
everything. And they will do things.
We're like, oh, this is great. Let's let's go down this route
instead. So it's, it's a very, I feel
like a show is a very like we always see them as these like
live things that are never to set.
They will. We are always open to try new
things and have them grow and improve, especially because
they're so pop culture based as well.
So you know, when, when Gwyneth Paltrow does something new, like
when she released Martyr Supreme recently, like like, oh, we can
add a bit of that in, you know, we never know what's going to
happen around these in pop cultures.
It's always fun to make sure that we keep the things like
fresh and as current and fun as possible.
Yeah, And you mentioned, obviously you recently took your
show stateside. You're taking your show multiple
times to the US I'm curious about that experience because
there's this kind of cliche that certain humour doesn't travel
well, but I kind of often feel like queer culture and queer
humour is kind of almost universal.
So how was that experience? And did anything kind of about
the US audience, the American audience, surprise you when kind
of performing their shows? I think, I mean, we had an
amazing time and we actually like, I really loved every time
we've gone to the States and performed there and it has been
very magical. I think what is every just like
it is in the UK and and anywhere else as well, like the audiences
are a bit different. Like because we've in in the US,
we perform a few different places and the audience in New
York and LA are quite different to the ones in Park City, UT
where the trial happened, for example.
So it's interesting to see like how different things work in
different places. But for the for Gwyneth go
skiing, I think because it's an amount like set in America about
people who are arguably like actually way more famous in
America than they are here. Because it's funny how like in
in Gwyneth go skiing, there's this long speech with Gwyneth
basically gives an inspirational speech by referencing pretty
much every film she's ever done. And in the UK people get it.
And most people say we'll get like quite a lot of the
references. But in LA, every little like
film references picked up on every little like niche pop
culture reference. And I feel like obviously being
such like a capital for for pop culture and film in particular,
like it's funny to do a show like that there where where like
you feel like every they get every little like hidden
reference in the in the show that that feels very magical,
That feels really fun. And it's this time we took Diana
over for the first time, which was also amazing to see how well
that landed because I was it feels like obviously a much more
British show, but there are certain things that kills here
that are still getting like a nice reaction there.
But you could tell like, oh, they are not as as well versed
in certain parts of like, you know, the British monarchy or
British culture or Princess Diana's life as obviously like
the standard British audiences are.
Yeah, I think interesting. I mean, they're both such kind
of global icons that I guess that helps.
It's not like the US had never heard of Princess Diana.
Like, she was a universal kind of character and also a massive
queer icon as well, right? I think when exactly?
Yeah, Diana had that as well. Yeah.
And that becomes very much a part of the story.
And yeah. Right.
Well, we started this conversation talking about you
as your younger self. So I want to revisit them
because if you could give your younger self one piece of
advice, what would it be? And then would it be different
if I said, what advice would you just give to a LGBTQ plus person
today in 2026? I think don't take things too
seriously because like, I do think actually, especially like,
you know, when you're young and when you're I just like I spent
so many of my teenage years just like feeling unhappy, feeling
unconfident, but actually, and I got worrying about some of the
things that actually don't matter.
Well, like, you know, life is ridiculous that everyone is
ridiculous and everyone is so, you know, like awkward and
stupid. So like we might as well just
have fun, but also to find, find your like your outfit and your
people. Because I feel like for so many
years I didn't really like, I stopped myself on doing so many
things I enjoyed and I didn't do any theatre or anything.
But when I did that, that really opened up so much.
And I feel like there are, yeah, do more theatre basically.
That's my advice. Like the quicker you find that
and you find your outfit and find your people, like you will
flourish. Whichever the guess is like a
generic advice. It's because I do feel like
wherever you are and whatever your interests are or whatever
you do, like there are people who will, who will enjoy you and
whose company you will enjoy and who will make you a better
person. Because I feel like it's such a
difference when you are surrounded by people, even if
they're nice, but like that don't actually like, you know,
inspire you and bring out the best of you.
And there are those people for everyone.
So I feel like it's it's about finding, finding those people
and those outlets. Yeah, I love that.
I think that's great advice. I think the sooner you can find,
to your point, your people, but also the things you're
passionate about that you're good at and kind of combine
those two things, it leads to kind of a lot more happiness, a
lot more comfortable life, and also the ability to kind of be
your authentic self fully. Linus, thank you so much for
being on Quit Talk with Me today.
This has been such an incredible conversation.
I've loved learning more and more about your shows.
Clearly I'm going to have to look out for your next friend
show and I'll be coming up to check it out and that'll be my
excuse. Perfect first time.
But I just really appreciate what you do from a queer
culture, pop culture perspective, telling those
stories, giving us all kind of that that escapism that we all
need sometimes to kind of just laugh and enjoy a show.
So I really appreciate your work, but I really appreciate
you being on Queer Talk with me today.
Thank you, Ben. It's been a lot of fun.
Thank you.