1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Hello and welcome back to the Queerest podcast telling the 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,080 fiercest stories. This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,960 Cechetti. And this week I'm sitting down 4 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,520 with the star and creator of shows like Diana, The Untold and 5 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,920 Untrue Story, Gwyneth Go Skiing, The Fit Prince, and many, many 6 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,320 more. Lena's Carp. 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,400 No one would ever cast this Gwyneth Paltrow. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,520 But now I've been able to play characters like that, that I 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,120 just feel like I want, I want to do. 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,440 Earlier this year, she accepted an award, and Robert Downey 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:32,840 Junior presented her with the award. 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,080 And he made jokes about our show as he was introducing the award. 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:37,760 I was like, this is so ridiculous. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,560 It feels somehow almost like more important to do these 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,240 ridiculous, stupid queer shows during these times. 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,800 It took me so long to sort of like, come to terms with my own 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,120 queerness and accept that. And even when, like, I first 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,800 came out, it still took like, yeah, it was so many years 19 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,640 before I even felt felt like, comfortable in it. 20 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,880 Even though I barely dad to like, you know, speak to someone 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,320 in real life. As soon as you put me on stage 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,520 when those situations, I was like, oh, all of a sudden, I 23 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,880 know how to do. I know how to interact. 24 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,440 The quicker you find that and you find your out and find your 25 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,800 people like you will flourish. Before we get to my conversation 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,920 with Lenas, I've got a quick favour to ask. 27 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,800 Wherever you are watching or listening to this episode, hit 28 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,040 that subscribe button. It's one click and it's going to 29 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,240 make a massive difference. It's going to allow us to grow 30 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,440 this podcast and it's going to allow us to bring you the best 31 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,080 and the Queerest episodes every single time. 32 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,280 So in advance, thank you. Now to my conversation with 33 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,200 Lenas Linus. As always, we will start with 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,880 our Queer Panic rapid fire questions and you just respond 35 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,880 with the first thing that comes to mind. 36 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,520 Starting with what's the first album you ever owned? 37 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,560 It's an album called Hits for Kids, which was Hits for Kids 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,560 and I got for my birthday. OK, I love that. 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,720 Was it like a compilation now 44 * a? 40 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,000 Compilation of like puppets at the time and they released like 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,560 multiples. I remember Like Hits for Kids 42 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,680 came out and then the year after when it's my birthday, Hits for 43 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,200 Kids 2 came out and then the following year they've been a 44 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 bit quicker and Hits for Kids 4 came out. 45 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,440 And then with that one you even got a Pokémon card as well, 46 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,400 which was even more exciting. Yeah. 47 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,880 Nice compilation albums, Pokémon cards. 48 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,120 It's all our childhood. I love it. 49 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,720 We're already getting into it. Speaking of music, if you had to 50 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,440 lip sync for your life, what song would you choose? 51 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:39,800 I mean, I feel like, I mean, I feel like which might be a 52 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,920 cheating answer. Maybe I should choose like DA 53 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,840 and a the song from Diana the antelantry story, because I feel 54 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,840 like no one would know that as well as I do and I've got a 55 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,600 choreo to it. So like even better. 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,120 But I feel like that's also kind of like a a cheating answer. 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,960 So oh, I don't know, maybe something like early Britney. 58 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,080 Oops, I did it again. Maybe. 59 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Oh nice, I love that we have a playlist on Spotify that I get 60 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,440 to add these songs to and we haven't got any Britney on that 61 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,160 yet. I don't think so. 62 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,680 Oh, now I get that back it is. What is your favourite queer 63 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:16,760 movie or TV show? I mean, I mean obviously like 64 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,800 everyone else I've been watching here to drive through recently 65 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,080 and that's it. Fantastic. 66 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,120 But fav. Oh, God, I should never had a 67 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:29,320 quicker answer to this. Pride is amazing when it comes 68 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,320 to films, obviously, and it's exciting. 69 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,320 That's being turned into a stage musical. 70 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,000 Yeah. I mean, all that's. 71 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,240 Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's been 72 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,160 especially like, in the last year or two, like there's been 73 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,680 so many amazing films and TV series. 74 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,000 But, well, I mean, yeah, I'll say Pride, I guess. 75 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:47,800 Pride's a great choice. I love it. 76 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,040 I feel like everyone should watch it at least once in their 77 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,720 life. And you're right, there's been 78 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,960 so many amazing shows have come out. 79 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,400 Everyone's obsessed with the rivalry. 80 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,080 Who would be? Everyone suddenly loves ice 81 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,320 hockey for some apparent reason. It all makes sense. 82 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,440 Yeah, exactly. Who is your ultimate queer icon? 83 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,640 I am going to say Lil Mass X actually, I love Lil Mass X so 84 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,800 much. And I think, like, what he did 85 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,120 with, like, make being like, you know, one of the biggest stars 86 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,320 in the world at the time and making things that were just 87 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,200 like, so explicitly gay and queer and great. 88 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,120 I like, I do really, really love him. 89 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,920 And yeah. And I hope he's doing well now. 90 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,360 Yeah, we hope he's doing well, but I agree what he's done, you 91 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,800 know, in a genre of music that was historically a little bit 92 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,120 homophobic, meaning hip hop, the fact that he's kind of taken 93 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,520 that and he's so unapologetically queer in all of 94 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,120 his music, I think it's a great show. 95 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,120 He'd be a dream podcast guest as well. 96 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,000 So maybe I'll tag him on this and see if we can get him on. 97 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Here, Yeah. I really wanted him in one of 98 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,880 our shows. So that's like my yeah. 99 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,560 OK, One of those things might happen. 100 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,280 I think you might have a better shot than I do, but we'll see. 101 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:56,840 I don't know. We'll see, we'll see, we'll 102 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,920 compete. Yeah, who is one person you 103 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,880 would want to hear on this podcast? 104 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,800 I mean, besides little now sex, obviously. 105 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Well, actually this week I went to a book launch for for an 106 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,320 author called Kestrel Guy and who's like this fantastic trans 107 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,760 author who's written many different books. 108 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,600 And I feel like that could be a really interesting conversation. 109 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:22,720 I love that. I love that. 110 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,000 We will definitely reach out and try and get them on the podcast. 111 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,280 I love having authors on the podcast. 112 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:28,040 It always is an interesting conversation. 113 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,240 Final of the Queer Panic questions What is one word you 114 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,120 would use to describe your childhood? 115 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,280 Playful. Playful, OK, I love that. 116 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:42,040 Well, we can dive in a bit deeper on that because as 117 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,320 listeners now I have this theory that you understand an LGBTQ 118 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,840 person as an adult, you first need to understand them as a 119 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:50,880 young person. So you say playful. 120 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,640 What should I know about you as a child or a teenager to 121 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,400 understand the leanness that sits in front of me today? 122 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,200 When I grew up in a small village in like, the Swedish 123 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,440 forest sounds idyllic. Yeah. 124 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,440 And I think it is in many ways. And like, especially, like now 125 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,960 going back there like this is amazing. 126 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,480 And I think as a kid it's amazing as well. 127 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,400 I think when you're a queer teenager who's into, like, you 128 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,320 know, pop culture and theatre, not maybe they're like, the best 129 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,600 place to be, but like growing up, I think great. 130 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,560 And like, yeah, I feel like I had two siblings and we didn't 131 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,440 have loads of money. So I feel like we were always 132 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,120 the last, like the last people to get like a DVD or, or a 133 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,880 computer. Like for like all the childhood 134 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,560 years I didn't really have. So also I didn't really have 135 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,680 access to pop culture, which really has become what I kind of 136 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,440 work around now. But I think then the playfulness 137 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,200 really helped. Like you created like these 138 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,720 games and magical worlds and things around it, which I think 139 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,240 I still very much do. I think the playfulness has 140 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,960 probably been like the key element throughout my entire 141 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,480 life. Yeah, I agree. 142 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,760 And I think I grew up on a farm and you did have to kind of rely 143 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,520 on your imagination. I think relying on your 144 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,440 imagination more kind of gives you that creative flair and that 145 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,440 playfulness which clearly comes through in your work today. 146 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,480 So obviously pop culture is such a big part of your life now. 147 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,320 When did you kind of first start to have a passion for pop 148 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,200 culture and, and, and kind of that world? 149 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,360 I think always like I, yeah, I like, I remember as a kid, like 150 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,080 there was this like weekly called, it was called Vox Pop. 151 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,440 It was this weekly like, because we didn't have like loads of TV 152 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,440 channels, something we only have like the standard Swedish ones. 153 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,040 And there was this weekly music video show where they show music 154 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:40,360 videos and you could vote for the winner. 155 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,720 And I was like not having MTV or anything like that. 156 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:48,120 That was my only, like, way to, to consume music videos. 157 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,640 So, like, that was such like, a highlight of the week. 158 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,080 And watching like, you know, artists like Britney Spears come 159 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,760 through and like, all those iconic music videos was like, so 160 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,560 special and, like, quite formative in a way, I guess. 161 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:03,720 I agree. And kids today, as I'm going to 162 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,960 sound so old now, we'll never understand the world without 163 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,600 YouTube and TikTok, where you had to sit and wait for your 164 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,880 favourite music video to come up on whatever channel you're 165 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,120 watching, rather than just kind of having at your fingertips 166 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:14,080 like that. No, exactly. 167 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,720 And there was never a guarantee. And you're like, please, like 168 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,760 let's hope like, you know, there's some new like pop girl 169 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,920 releasing something that that will be on. 170 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Yeah, 100%. I vividly remember being 171 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,200 obsessed with Two Faced by Louise Louise Redknapp and never 172 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,360 they never got played and just waiting for it to come on. 173 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,039 So I'm totally with. It's a great. 174 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,120 Time. I don't think she ever reached 175 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,799 Sweden, you know. OK, I'll send you a link, you'll 176 00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:41,640 love it. Do you remember the first LGBTQ 177 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,440 plus person you kind of became aware of, either in real life or 178 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,720 through pop culture and media? I well, I mean, I do remember 179 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:56,760 because there was this, like, I remember there's this soap, 180 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,480 there was this soap in Sweden that was set on a boat or like a 181 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,320 big like cruise ship basically. And I'm not a cruise like a 182 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,480 ferry with like the people working there and so on. 183 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,760 And there was a relationship, which I mean, clearly was a 184 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,880 homosexual relationship. And I remember watching like 185 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,680 these two men kissed for the first time. 186 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,520 But because there was such like an innocent child and also like 187 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,560 homosexuality just wasn't talked about. 188 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:21,720 I mean, I know Sweden's a progressive country, but I think 189 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,040 I was brought up like in the countryside and in like a 190 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,120 Christian upbringing as well. So I wouldn't say that I heard 191 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,240 homophobia, but it was just like, it was just never talked 192 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,440 about. I didn't even realise that was 193 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,000 something that existed. So seeing like these two men 194 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,840 kiss, I was just like, oh, they're just very good friends. 195 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,080 Like my understanding of the situation, which is quite funny. 196 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,800 But I think I drew, I do remember that kiss. 197 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,600 And then in Sweden Melody Festival and which is like our 198 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,680 Eurovision selection process is so huge. 199 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,760 And I feel like that's probably where where I first saw like 200 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,400 homosexuality, like, yeah, it's like queer expression really. 201 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Yeah. I mean, which was great. 202 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,760 And it's something I love. But it was also when you only 203 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,080 see it in this, like, glitter, flamboyant, outgoing way. 204 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,880 It's weird to be like when you then start thinking like, oh, 205 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,960 maybe there's something me, but I'm not like that all the time, 206 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,760 although like, maybe I am now. But then you're like when that's 207 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,600 the only, you know, the only version of homosexuality you 208 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,320 see. That also gets a bit confusing. 209 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,480 Yeah. Do you remember them when you 210 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,400 first, you know, so many of us kind of remember that first or 211 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,440 those early feelings, that early sparks of our kind of quanquo in 212 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,840 a queerness. Do you remember when you first 213 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,560 felt that in yourself and then kind of kind of how you 214 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:42,640 navigated that? I don't, I don't know if I 215 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,440 remember the first. I mean, I was like I've always 216 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,720 been. Well, it's just like I loved 217 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,320 dressing up and I especially like we had a dress up box and I 218 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,600 would always put on the dresses. I mean, I still do. 219 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,400 Something's never changed. Yeah, and it would often be like 220 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,680 my older sister would dress up as a man and I would dress up as 221 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,800 like a woman and we would play like, you know, husband or wife 222 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,760 or whatever, which is quite funny. 223 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,360 I mean, she's she's a straight woman now. 224 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 So it's not like that. But but I mean like that's that 225 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,360 that would really definitely to be be a queerness. 226 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,320 I remember getting like tasks and cartoon cartoons and I was 227 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,440 like, Oh, this is quite not that. 228 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,400 I not that it was anything sexual about or anything like 229 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,760 that was just like, oh, it's just quite nice to look at this 230 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,600 muscling man in the forest. And not like I never like 231 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,400 connecting it any further than that obviously. 232 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,480 But it's just like, oh I enjoy reading this for multiple 233 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,920 reasons probably. That's understandable. 234 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,600 So when do you think you then felt that? 235 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,600 You know, when did you feel authentically yourself? 236 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,360 And then when did you feel like you could just bring that 237 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,520 authenticity to everything you do? 238 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,720 Clearly, because you do, you are such an authentic person and 239 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,480 everything will come across so authentically and everything you 240 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:53,880 do. When did you feel you could just 241 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,640 bring that? Thank you. 242 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,080 I'm glad I've had I have you tricked. 243 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,720 I well, I think it took a really long time because I think, I 244 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,680 mean, growing because I'm in my early 30s now. 245 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:08,480 And I think so much has changed in like the last 10-15 years 246 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,320 that like when it comes to queer visibility in particular, like 247 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,440 it took me so long to sort of like come to terms with my own 248 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,200 queerness and accept that. And even when I first came up, 249 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,840 it still took like, yeah, it was so many years before I even 250 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,240 felt, felt like comfortable in it. 251 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,400 And I think, I mean, I think theatre and finding your 252 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,240 community really helps a lot as well. 253 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Because I feel like when I started doing theatre and making 254 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,720 friends that you like from being like this very awkward, unsure 255 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,680 of himself person, I then found something that was good at and 256 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,800 something that felt right doing like even though I barely dared 257 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,360 to like, you know, speak to someone in real life, as soon as 258 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,040 you put me on stage when those situations, I was like, oh, all 259 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,920 of a sudden, I know how to do. I know how to interact. 260 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,960 And I think that really like how it leaped forward. 261 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,560 Yeah. So definitely took like it was, 262 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,160 it's such a long journey. And I think that's the thing 263 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,360 that will especially probably straight people don't realise 264 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,600 like it's not just coming out, it's after that. 265 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,840 It's still for in my case, like many years before you even start 266 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,800 to feel like accepted as your and ready to like, you know, 267 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,280 embrace your identity and and be loved basically. 268 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,640 Yeah, I also think people don't kind of understand that you are 269 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,080 forever coming out. Like you constantly coming out 270 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,600 to people, constantly telling people. 271 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,640 I think a lot of us do it as like almost a security thing. 272 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,920 We want to make sure people know before they kind of have the 273 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,480 opportunity to say anything that we might take offence to or that 274 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,680 they might regret. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's 275 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:40,000 good now because most of the people I work, oh, like I meet 276 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,480 is through like some kind of work context where I'm often, 277 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,240 you know, like dressed up a screen of buzz with phrases by 278 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,760 Hannah and. Spit a giveaway. 279 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,200 Yeah, I feel like I don't actually have to come out 280 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,160 anymore. But then it's always weird when 281 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,040 you're suddenly like, put in a situation for whatever reason. 282 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,920 We're at like some kind of place and most people are great and 283 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,200 people obviously don't know you. And I'm like, oh, I kind of 284 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,960 forget that that world exists as well. 285 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,520 So because so often I live in my bubble where like most people 286 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,040 are queer or queer adjacent at least, or queer friendly. 287 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:11,800 So like you're. Yeah. 288 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,720 And then you're like, oh, this is, you know, 90% of the 289 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,440 population who? And all of a sudden it's not a 290 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,800 given that I'm I'm gay. Yeah, well, the bubble sounds 291 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,880 fabulous. It sounds like a great place to 292 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,120 be. It is. 293 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,840 I'm trying. I try never to leave it. 294 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,640 I can appreciate that. I do want to talk about your 295 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:30,760 work. You obviously mentioned getting 296 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,800 into theatre and obviously what you do today with Awkward 297 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,040 Productions. Can you just talk me through 298 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,440 that career journey and then what led you to establishing 299 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,280 Awkward Productions and all the kind of incredible shows you put 300 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,160 on now? So I've always, I mean, ever 301 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,920 since the young age, I wanted to be an actor. 302 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,400 So that's always been like my main guiding light almost. 303 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,440 So I trained in Sweden before moving over here. 304 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,920 But then the first few years here and still when it comes to 305 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,080 casting, I feel like it's it can be very hard to be seen, 306 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,480 especially like if you haven't been to a drama school here, if 307 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,600 you are like, in my case, foreign, that's obviously 308 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:11,160 limiting doors as well. And and like weird and queer as 309 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,200 well as I feel like I was so rarely seen for anything. 310 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,920 It would be like the occasional like, oh, hey, we want a German 311 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,880 receptionist with one line. You can be seen for that. 312 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,360 Like it was never like they are. I feel like you can be very it's 313 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:24,840 very limited what you're seen for. 314 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,360 And I think it's great that we've had so much like diversity 315 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,000 has really opened up, obviously in the last years and and people 316 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,400 of all abilities are seen for various things. 317 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,160 So like, you know, all races, all genders, etcetera. 318 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760 And that's great. But I still think that when it 319 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,280 comes to people who don't have English as a first language, 320 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,160 they are rarely seen for can I rarely seem for as much because 321 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,520 like, we're actually such a large part of the UK population 322 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,160 but aren't really represented in the same way on screen or stage. 323 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,520 So I really set up the company to I found this play that I 324 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,480 really loved, which is a really strange play called Awkward 325 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,480 Conversations with Animals. I fucked and it's a pre-existing 326 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,800 play written by Rob Hayes and I found it in a bookshop and I was 327 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,480 just like, what is this? I read it and I fell so in love 328 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,280 with it because it's so dark and twisted and hilarious and really 329 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,000 poignant and like emotional as well. 330 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,320 So I was like, this is such a great piece of theatre. 331 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,160 I really want to stage this. So I first had this idea like, 332 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,520 you know, if I put on a play and this feels like a character that 333 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,560 I could do well, then hopefully, you know, I'll be just casting 334 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,400 things after that. So I staged it and it did well. 335 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,840 It went to the Fringe, it toured the UK and I had a lot of fun 336 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,960 with it and it got good receptions but didn't 337 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,320 necessarily lead to me being casting things. 338 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,960 But what it did lead to was me realising that actually I can 339 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,000 put things on and I'm quite good at, you know, like organising 340 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,720 something. So then I sort of started taking 341 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,280 that further by writing and creating my own shows as well, 342 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,760 making them sort of like more and more queer as I was doing 343 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,440 that. And that worked like one thing 344 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,400 just led to another and it's sort of like, you know, 345 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,440 snowballed. And now I've been like, you 346 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,400 know, in the last few years I've been fortunate enough like have 347 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,720 it as my full time job and tour both the UK and the world with 348 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,079 it, which has been very exciting and something I never really 349 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,040 predicted. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible 350 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,160 journey. I'm curious, obviously writing 351 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,760 and producing and then also performing in there, is that 352 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,000 part of it that you enjoy more? Do you enjoy the kind of sitting 353 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,400 down and the creative process of writing it, or is that really a 354 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,720 means to the end and it's the performance part that you 355 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,120 actually are kind of so excited about? 356 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,480 I think acting has always been my like my main love. 357 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,880 So I feel like I would, I do really enjoy writing, although 358 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,640 like that's obviously very scary because you don't know if it's 359 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,800 going to be any good at that point. 360 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:52,640 But I do think I like writing when I know that there's like, 361 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,280 you know, when I know I'm going to get to perform it and I'm 362 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,520 writing it to myself. I think it would be, I mean, I 363 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,400 obviously would be happy to write other things as well, but 364 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,640 I feel like I kind of want to know that it's happening and 365 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,240 that I like I'm doing it for myself so that I get to perform. 366 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,600 So yeah, I do love performing, but I do kind of like all all of 367 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,560 the creative aspects. Like I love the writing, I love 368 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:20,800 the directing and create it like really making it all like, like, 369 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,080 like, you know, being true to your vision and finding 370 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,240 something that that you feel like is important and you you 371 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,440 can be very proud of. I think that's what I've really 372 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,880 enjoyed by doing it because obviously, like normally when 373 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,280 you're an actor or something, you don't get that much of A say 374 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,560 of what the actual product is. But it's been nice to be able to 375 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,360 have like, you know, such a creative input and being able to 376 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,040 tell stories that probably wouldn't be told in the way 377 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,120 otherwise. And also cast myself in roles I 378 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,440 would like. No one would ever cast this 379 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,680 Gwyneth Paltrow. But now I've been able to play 380 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,720 characters like that, that I just feel like I want, I want to 381 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,520 do. So that's been very freeing. 382 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,840 But but same time, I'm quite tired of running a business. 383 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,960 I don't want to do all the admin and producing side of it. 384 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,560 Yeah, I can imagine. But obviously that you mentioned 385 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,320 a few characters already. And for anyone who is kind of 386 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,200 discovering your work for the first time, your work spans 387 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,560 shows like Diana, The Untold and Untrue Story, Gwyneth Go Skiing 388 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,760 and most recently The Fit Prince. 389 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:22,120 When you look at that body of work, where did those ideas 390 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,480 usually come from? Like he takes something like a 391 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,120 Gwyneth go skiing. Where did that kind of where 392 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,960 those concepts come from? And then how do you kind of 393 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,080 establish them and and bring them to life? 394 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:39,040 I think all of our ideas have come from from from what feels 395 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,040 fun. Like the first show I wrote was 396 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,240 about it was called How to Live a Delica Life. 397 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,520 It was about the cats, the film Cats that I became so obsessed 398 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,080 with. And I think it was just like 399 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,040 feeling that this is something that I am thinking about all the 400 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,240 time. And I have so many thoughts 401 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,160 about that. I could be like, you know, I 402 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,960 never thought at first that someone would want to see a show 403 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,800 based around, you know, a film that did quite terribly. 404 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,160 As much as I love it, it's not it's not a university loved film 405 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,720 and. You might be the only person 406 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,680 obsessed with it. Exactly so I was like, oh, but 407 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,160 then I was like when you actually are and the same with 408 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,560 Princess Diana came then came from I had started Joseph's my 409 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,480 husband, who I also create the shows with his mum is obsessed. 410 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,960 Well, like we kind of like bonded over Princess Diana means 411 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,160 and she said Princess Diana fan. So when she turned 60 a few 412 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,960 years ago, I was like, I'm going to write her a little Diana 413 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,120 story. And then that sort of like grew 414 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,960 into the show, sort of like when you find I've, I've realised 415 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,160 like it's rarely when I create a show, it's rarely the one, I 416 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,480 think it's going to be the next one that ends up being the next 417 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,080 one. It's whatever feels like, oh, 418 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,760 I'm actually drawn to this and having a lot of fun with this. 419 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,800 And then why not try and explore that further? 420 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,480 Like when Gwyneth Paltrow had a ski trial, we were watching that 421 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,240 and I was like, I think there's a show in here. 422 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,480 This is just too like ridiculous and golden. 423 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,520 And luckily there was a luckily people like that one really like 424 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,640 got got a lot of like press attention, which is great 425 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,640 because I was so scared that people wouldn't remember the 426 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,360 trial by the time we announced the show because I was like, 427 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:11,120 people move on so fast. So it's kind of like. 428 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,080 You've kept the trial alive, which I'm sure Gwyneth is 429 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,600 thrilled about. Exactly. 430 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,320 I'm sure she is. Yeah, yeah. 431 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,280 We recently performed it in LA and I tried to, we tried to get 432 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,840 her to come along. We tried to invite her, but 433 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,560 she's still she still hasn't been. 434 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:26,840 OK, one day. One day. 435 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,400 Yeah, yeah. Many people involved in the case 436 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,680 has actually come to see it at this point. 437 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,680 And that's been really fun. And she's well aware of it. 438 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,800 And she recently, earlier this year, she accepted an award, and 439 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,360 Robert Downey Junior presented her with the award, and he made 440 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,160 jokes about our show as he was introducing the award. 441 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,880 I was like, this is so ridiculous. 442 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,040 Yeah. So yeah, fingers crossed one day 443 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,800 she'll attend. How do these moments feel 444 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,640 though? Like when you see like, jokes 445 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,160 being made about, like, Robert Downe Junior, Making this 446 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,400 comment like that must feel surreal to know the reach of 447 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,080 something you've created has reached kind of that level. 448 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,240 Yeah, yeah, it is surreal. It's like, it's weird. 449 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,800 Yeah, yeah, I think it's weird when you're like the people who 450 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:10,560 especially people like, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and 451 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,080 Robertani Junior, who's like, as someone who loves pop culture 452 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,840 and and films, like since I was a child, I've been aware of them 453 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,080 and like seeing them. So to have them like, you know, 454 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,320 talking about something created feels so ridiculous. 455 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:28,920 And like, yeah, it's, it's just, yeah, it's just fun and, and 456 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,520 really, really weird. Like I heard from someone that 457 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,720 the royal palaces had like instructed their staff and I 458 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,840 advised their staff not to come and see the Diana show, which I 459 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760 always thought was hilarious. I'd be like the royal palaces 460 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,360 are discussing this this show, which isn't very pro monarchy. 461 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,560 So you know, probably fair enough that they don't want that 462 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,400 staff to go and see it. But like it's so fun. 463 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,080 Was like these people are talking about about those shows. 464 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,560 Yeah, I love it. And you mentioned obviously your 465 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,840 partner in Awkward Productions is also your partner in life, 466 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,240 your husband, Joseph Martin. I'm curious to know which came 467 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,600 first, the creative partnership or the relationship? 468 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,440 And then how do you stop Awkward Productions becoming, you know, 469 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,720 to use a Diana reference, the third person in the marriage? 470 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,120 Well, it is the third in my marriage. 471 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,840 We were, we were partners before we started working together. 472 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,320 So we had like been together for I think three, 2-3 years before 473 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,480 we actually started working together. 474 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,800 And it was when I was putting on this, this first show. 475 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,760 And he'd been working as a assistant producer in radio at 476 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,760 the time. And so I sort of like got him to 477 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,200 help out with various bits of the show. 478 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,160 And it's sort of like Co produced ended up like operating 479 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,920 it for part of the round as well. 480 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,680 And and I guess we all like we also work well together. 481 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,440 And then like as I created more and more shows, like the first 482 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,240 couple of shows I sort of wrote, even though with like input from 483 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,880 him, he sort of became more and more involved up until I think 484 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,560 Gwyneth is the one that really changed it, which is like 485 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,160 properly A2 hand where we that we wrote together. 486 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,120 So his involvement just grew and grew for each show really. 487 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:16,240 And, and it's, I mean, it's nice because I feel like people often 488 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,560 say like, oh, how can you? Like, I could never work with my 489 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,040 partner or things like that. And I feel like that's not that 490 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,240 everyone needs to work with a partner, obviously, but like he 491 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,320 is the person that I have the most fun with and that I enjoy 492 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,960 spending the most time with. So I'm so glad that we can share 493 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,600 all of this because it would, I mean, it would even if he wasn't 494 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,840 involved, it would have been amazing to, you know, like take 495 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,600 the shows to New York and LA and Australia and so on. 496 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,160 But the fact that we can do that and share that together is even 497 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,840 more special and fun. But obviously it's hard to, to 498 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,080 switch on because I feel like we are working all the time. 499 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:53,440 And I, I think I don't really have any limits when it comes to 500 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,600 my work schedule, which he has a little bit more. 501 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,920 And I know that there are times when, you know, like I, if I 502 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,920 start asking work questions, either when he's just waking up 503 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,680 or like at midnight, he's not always thrilled. 504 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,600 I don't understand why. I'm very shocking of him. 505 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,960 So yes, I'm trying to replace him. 506 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,160 No. But like obviously there are 507 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:19,320 challenges, but I think there are the pros out ways, the cons 508 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,840 definitely. Yeah, I think sometimes it can 509 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,320 help. My husband works in the creative 510 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,600 world, so I think it sometimes helps to have someone to share 511 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,680 ideas with that. Can they be that first kind of 512 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,720 judgement call, right. Like it can be very difficult if 513 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,920 you're working solo on something to not have that Sandy board or 514 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,280 feel like you need to take it outside kind of to get that 515 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,920 sandy board. So it must be nice having each 516 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,160 other to say, is this a funny idea or is this a terrible idea? 517 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,240 And also we, I think it also saves so much time because it 518 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,360 can be so direct. Like when you know someone that 519 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,960 well, if you know, if we are writing something, one of us has 520 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,760 an idea and the other one can just be like, no, this isn't 521 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,440 good where it's obvious. Like, you know, if you're 522 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,120 working with someone else and they're pitching something, be 523 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,160 like, Oh yeah, maybe we can try. I feel like we just save so much 524 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,600 time by just being like really direct on everything. 525 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,880 And obviously like if someone wants to try something, we often 526 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,800 will try it even if the other one doesn't like it. 527 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,520 But I think it really helps to to have that very direct 528 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600 communication. Yeah, I love that. 529 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,600 And you got married at the fringe, right? 530 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,200 That's kind of what I read anyway last. 531 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,000 Year. Yeah, we did. 532 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,280 It was kind of a silly idea. That course sort of just like 533 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,600 snowballed into actually getting married live on stage. 534 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,960 We had we had, but I should say that we had a small wedding in 535 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,600 September that was already planned. 536 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,160 But our friend who's a brilliant comedian and performer, Sam 537 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,280 Carlisle, she was going to officiate that because we wanted 538 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,520 to like want her to do. We wanted to keep it personal 539 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,040 rather than having, you know, paying less of money to have 540 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,960 like a random person coming in to do it. 541 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,960 So we just had to do like it legally before then. 542 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,120 And we were just going to go to like our nearest register office 543 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:55,280 and like sign the papers. But here in London at least, 544 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,160 like where we live, it was like you could only do that like once 545 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,880 a month. And it was booked up for 546 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,320 multiple months. And like, it was really hard to 547 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,480 find the time. And we were touring as well. 548 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,120 So like, I don't know where we can find the time for this. 549 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:07,360 We should look at doing it somewhere else. 550 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,640 And then I thought like, well, we're going to be in Edinburgh 551 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,600 all of August and Edinburgh is like very like special place for 552 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,520 us that we would take gun to the French so many times. 553 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,480 We have so many amazing experience together there. 554 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,600 So we were like, why don't we do it in Edinburgh? 555 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,160 And then we're like, what if we're going to do it in 556 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,600 Edinburgh during the French? Why don't we do it? 557 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,600 That's where everyone would go with that line of thought, yeah. 558 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,600 Exactly. So we had like, you know, 559 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,160 special performances and there's a woman from the Edinburgh City 560 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,240 Council called Jackie Blackburn. And she was hilarious because 561 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,120 you didn't know always like a dude, you were just assigned 562 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:44,080 someone. And I was quite consecutive, 563 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,360 like we're going to do it in this like in Clapham Arabs or in 564 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,400 Pleasance Ground, which is this like 600 seater venue. 565 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,480 And I was like, I hope she knows what she signed up for. 566 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,000 And she was hilarious. Like she was so funny, so great. 567 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,800 And it was a very like, ridiculous, but special day. 568 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,720 I love that and people I assume had to pay to come and watch you 569 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,160 get married which is not not a bad. 570 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,640 Thing exactly, and that's obviously because weddings are 571 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,280 so expensive, crazy and actually by doing that as like, you know, 572 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,520 as sell out and ridiculous as it's as it sounds, we kept the 573 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,280 tickets cheap, I should say. But Even so, like people then, 574 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,720 all that money actually helped fund our actual wedding, which 575 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,880 was really useful because, you know, when you work in the arts, 576 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,000 money can be hard to come by. You seem curious about the 577 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,080 fringe. I've never been. 578 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,160 I had Jordan Grey on the podcast and she's performed multiple 579 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,440 times. Yeah, Fringe. 580 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,760 How would you describe the fringe to someone who's not 581 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,840 familiar with it? Oh, you have the. 582 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,160 Experience. Of it OK. 583 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,960 I, I think it's, well, it's very hard to describe. 584 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,200 It's one of those things that you really have to experience to 585 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,960 really get, but it is, it's so amazing always like there are so 586 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,200 many downsides with the, with the fringe as well. 587 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,160 Like it's very expensive. It's, you know, it excludes so 588 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,800 many people by like, just like the cost of going there and 589 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,120 everyone UPS their prices. It can be really hard. 590 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,320 And it's, it's one of the like most challenging months as a 591 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,840 performer or as a creator that you can do. 592 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,920 But there is nothing like it. And it is so magical and it's 593 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,920 just this bubble of, you know, theatre and comedy and 594 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,160 creativity and you can see all kinds of shows from all over the 595 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,280 world. And you meet so many amazing 596 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,000 people every day. Like every, I feel like every 597 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,400 day at the Fringe feels like a week. 598 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,000 You just experience so much and it is like, it is magical and 599 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,000 there is nothing like it. And we have really found our 600 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840 audience and our home there. And I do love, I do love it 601 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,560 there. Amazing. 602 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,640 And are you doing the same show every night? 603 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,040 Does it give you an opportunity to test things kind of what's 604 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,440 the process for you from as a creator there? 605 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,760 You can do quite a lot of different things. 606 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,200 I think most people will do the full month with the same show 607 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,360 because you get like a time slot and like you apply for a venue. 608 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,880 So what we have done in the last few years has been to do our 609 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,880 latest show for the full month and then we have done usually 610 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,840 like our previous show for a week or a week and 1/2, which 611 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,360 also because the Fringe is so expensive, by doing more than 612 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,400 one show, we obviously just earn a bit more money as well. 613 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,240 However, it is so exhausting. Like I always feel like when we 614 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,400 get to the end of that month because you are constantly 615 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,320 switched on and you're running around and you always want your 616 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,080 show to sell and you often have like flyering as well. 617 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,280 You're watching all the shows, you're meeting so many people, 618 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,880 you're having some drinks and you're performing every day and, 619 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,960 you know, doing press. Last year was like we organised 620 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,400 a wedding in the middle of it as well. 621 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,520 Because a few shows wasn't enough. 622 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,640 No, no, exactly. And then we get to the end of it 623 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,840 and I am just a wreck. I remember coming back from the 624 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:50,000 Fringe in 2023 and I always like have a big crash when I come 625 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,040 back from the Fringe. And I was everyday, you know, 626 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,040 when you feel like, oh, today I'm going to have a today is a 627 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,600 bad day, but that's OK and I'll get going tomorrow again. 628 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,600 So every day I would go to the corner shop and I would buy a 629 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Doctor Ruskin mozzarella pizza and I would buy a chocolate bar, 630 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:07,720 the same chocolate bar every day. 631 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,960 And my plan was always like, tomorrow I'll get like, I'll get 632 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,560 back on. Track. 633 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,800 This went on for two weeks until I went to the corner shop and 634 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,760 they were out of both the pizza and the chocolate bar and I was 635 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,440 like OK, this is a sign I need to to get back on track now. 636 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,400 Yeah, It must be a mixture of coming back from that. 637 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,800 You must be exhausted from doing it, but and then there also must 638 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,600 be a bit of a come down from being that kind of intense 639 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,760 experience. Do you come back thinking I 640 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,080 never want to dress up as Gwen Powder ever again? 641 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Or do you come back saying I now want to see what else I can do? 642 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,440 And I think, I mean, and never that you don't want to do it 643 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,320 again because it's also like, it is such a high. 644 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,680 And like, we have been very fortunate in like in the last 645 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,240 few years that we have like achieved a level of success at 646 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,200 the Fringe. Like we have, you know, sold out 647 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,040 many shows, won awards and things like that. 648 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,360 So it is such a high and, and it's weird to be like in that 649 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,760 specific environment and that specific bubble, that is where 650 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,000 we are like, you know, the most known, the most celebrated. 651 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,600 And that is a very like, exciting feeling. 652 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:24,320 And and to go from that back into like, you know, you like 653 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,960 your own apartment and like, oh, nothing is happening. 654 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,640 You don't get like these like emails or reviews coming out 655 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,320 almost every day. You don't have, like, you know, 656 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,200 people applauding you every day. Walking down the street, going 657 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,480 to the corner shop. Everything so quiet, like my 658 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,800 phone's gone quiet because normally, like, you know, you 659 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,440 get messages, see people constantly that you know, and 660 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,760 that you love and often, like, you know, people from all over 661 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,480 the world and you bump into, you know, like various celebrities 662 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,280 on the street maybe, or whatever, like. 663 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,840 And then yeah, like it's such, it's such a weird high that 664 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,800 obviously you can't sustain. Like doing that for a month, 665 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,280 It's definitely enough in itself. 666 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,640 But then you come back and the world just feels so grey and 667 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,160 empty and you probably feel like the tiredness properly because 668 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,560 it's like you barely switch off for that full month. 669 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,280 So it's such a weird come down. But I also feel like I I love 670 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,560 it. And sometimes I think like maybe 671 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,920 I wouldn't go to the fringe like next year, depending on, you 672 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,280 know, what happens in the career or what else we could be doing. 673 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,760 But then and it and it is so much work as well. 674 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,640 And but then I'm also like, I would have such FOMO not going. 675 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,200 Yeah, Yeah, you would. Yeah. 676 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,200 OK. I feel like I'm sold. 677 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,080 I'm gap to go. Maybe when you do your next new 678 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,560 show, I'll have to come and check it out. 679 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,320 No excuse to come. We're kind of at this weird 680 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,720 stage from a pop culture perspective where it feels like 681 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,840 queer culture has almost never been more popular. 682 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,760 Queer culture has become such a core part of just pop culture, 683 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,520 but also at the same time, kind of queer lives have become 684 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,240 increasingly politicised globally. 685 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,960 How do you, in kind of what you do, hold those two realities at 686 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,719 the same time, the kind of the queer culture aspect, but also 687 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,199 in recognising the political politicisation of queer 688 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,159 individuals. So that was a real hard turn to 689 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:18,400 a really serious question. Yeah. 690 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,679 But I mean, it's a great question because it's also like 691 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,400 it's something, I mean, that occupies my mind a lot. 692 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,480 And it's it's such a it's such a weird dark time. 693 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,800 And it feels weird because it's been like that for a long time. 694 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,280 Like it feels like it's the continuation. 695 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,639 So, you know, at the same time that we have so much queer 696 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,600 representation, so much good queer representation. 697 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,480 And yeah, as I said earlier, there's been so many like great 698 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,000 TV shows and films, etcetera about like that are queer. 699 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,960 But at the same time, you know, like our rights are being 700 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,840 threatened and especially like trans rights are being so 701 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,199 threatened at the moment, which is terrifying. 702 00:34:53,679 --> 00:35:02,360 And, and I do feel like because the work we do is, I mean, some 703 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,920 of it is more political than others, but, and I wouldn't say 704 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,600 that all of it is super political, but I think there's a 705 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,080 level of politics to it. And there's also something I 706 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,680 feel like very important and defined about queer joy, 707 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,960 especially when there isn't so much. 708 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:25,440 And I do think that often queer stories can be very dark and sad 709 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,520 and, you know, because there's always because, because there's 710 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,160 a lot of dark and sad things that are important to talk 711 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,120 about, of course, but like AIDS and bullying and homophobia and, 712 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,360 you know, sad coming out stories and things like that. 713 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,320 And those stories obviously need to to be told, but I think it's 714 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,280 very important to also have spaces that are full of queer 715 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,400 joy, especially when the world isn't necessarily reflecting 716 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,200 that. So it is weird. 717 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,760 And like, we have just come back from the States and it's a very 718 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,040 weird time in that country, as it is in many other places as 719 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,120 well. But it feels somehow almost like 720 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,200 more important to do these ridiculous, stupid queer shows 721 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,920 during these times. And I do think people are like 722 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,840 more ready to it. And it's sometimes people can 723 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,160 come up, I mean, like, I haven't laughed like this in a long 724 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,200 time, like. And and that's I think, yeah, 725 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,960 like sometimes we forget, like the importance of comedy as 726 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,840 well. Like comedy is can be so 727 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,480 powerful and so important and that should not be be lost. 728 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,720 Like art doesn't. Art can make you think and 729 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,400 entertain you at the same time as well. 730 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,600 Like laughing together in a room is very cathartic and very 731 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,600 important. Yeah, I agree. 732 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,480 I think it's such an important role to play. 733 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,200 It breaks down barriers, it breaks down kind of pre 734 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,840 preconceptions people have. I think when you make them 735 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,040 think, but also at the same time make them laugh. 736 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,360 And I also agree with the idea of I think the stories that kind 737 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,640 of focus on queer joy are just as important as the ones that 738 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,360 focus on, obviously a lot of the the hard things. 739 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,120 I take a show like a heart stopper that is so pure and so 740 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,000 focused on the joys of these very young characters kind of 741 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,600 finding love and finding their queerness. 742 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,320 I think that's just as important as say, a it's a sin, which 743 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,640 focused on kind of more of the AIDS Christ in the 80s. 744 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,120 So I think that balance, you're right, is so important to kind 745 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,640 of get them both told and give people outlets for both outlets 746 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,960 to think, but also outlets, I guess for escaping. 747 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,040 Is that kind of what you see your your shows as? 748 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,280 Helping people escape from some of the reality? 749 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,760 Yes, absolutely. And, and I also think just 750 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,560 creating spaces that are queer and full of queer joggers. 751 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,520 I feel like I've always, I feel like as queer people, we always 752 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,840 have to fit into like what is at most times a non queer world. 753 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,520 And I think with all our shows, we want to create a room that 754 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,040 is, that is queer. We're being queer is the norm. 755 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,040 And obviously everyone, whatever sexuality are welcome to attend. 756 00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,520 We take money even from straight people. 757 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,280 But but like, you know, for example, in Diana, many of the 758 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,760 we have a lot of audience interaction in the show and many 759 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,200 of the roles are not just called, you know, fan or 760 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,600 scientists. We name them like gay fan and 761 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,880 gay. And it's like we label everyone 762 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,760 in the room there as gay or queer rather than the opposite. 763 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,920 And then, you know, any straight people will just have to adapt 764 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,640 to that rather than us as queer people having to adapt to 765 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,760 straight narratives, which are like, you know, 95% of the 766 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,440 narratives whenever we, we consume culture or we go into 767 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,920 spaces. 100% how do you kind of deal? 768 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,920 You know, you've obviously had such an incredible run and it 769 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,400 feels like everything you're doing right now is on in such a 770 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,680 kind of a level of success, which is amazing. 771 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,000 How do you deal with that pressure though that comes with 772 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,520 that success? And then I guess is there this 773 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,840 fear of, you know, kind of constantly having to top 774 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,920 yourself and top what you did last time? 775 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,600 I like topping so it's fine. So to speak. 776 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,200 I I mean, I do think it is scary and like I'm working on 777 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,600 something at the moment, which is, would be quite different 778 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:10,880 from everything we've done so far. 779 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,040 And that feels very scary right now. 780 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,760 And I don't I'm like, I don't know if this will be any good or 781 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,800 if I'll be able to share this or if but yeah, we'll see. 782 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,600 I but, but in terms of the other shows, I feel like obviously you 783 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,320 feel those things and it is always scary. 784 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,160 And when you've had what what has been nice, like all the 785 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,040 Force four shows that we've created have sort of like quite 786 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,560 organically grown and they've also like all have done very 787 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,040 well. It's like they've all been very 788 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,320 like, yeah, like people do really like them. 789 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,480 They've all had like good praise. 790 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,520 They've all had great reviews. So it is always scary when 791 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,920 you're like, well, at some point would do a flop I. 792 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:52,600 Didn't believe it. I didn't believe it. 793 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,240 But at the same time, like, you know, you, you get to know 794 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:58,400 yourself better and I think you involve as an artist. 795 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,080 So like you get another skill set as well. 796 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,560 So like I'm not as scared in I, I know like I know my craft 797 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,480 better, I guess. So like I now know a bit more 798 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,880 what works and how to do it. So that I am, I think whatever I 799 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,320 create will have at least like a base level that is higher than 800 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,640 than it would have had a few years ago. 801 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,640 But yeah, I mean, and ultimately it's always. 802 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,480 I think you can never you never know what if what you're going 803 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,120 to do is going to resonate with people. 804 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,960 You can never like with something like Prince, the Diana 805 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,920 show. We were very fortunate in a way 806 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,800 in the timing because like we a couple of months before that 807 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,960 first opened, the Queen died, which at first I was like, this 808 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:40,960 is terrifying. Just now. 809 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,760 I feel like everyone's going to want to cancel this show, but 810 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,920 but it's sort of had the opposite effect because everyone 811 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,320 started talking about Charles and Diane and Camilla again. 812 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,400 And then, you know, like how we released this book and there was 813 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,080 the coronation of Charles and all of a sudden and, and the new 814 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,400 seasons of the crown as well, which we were very Diana focused 815 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,360 and all of a sudden, like Princess Diana was at the 816 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,960 forefront of people's minds again in a way she hadn't been. 817 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,640 So I feel like that really helped. 818 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,120 We could never always have planned that. 819 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,040 But you never really know when a show was going to catch the 820 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,360 zeitgeist in the way that batted. 821 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,360 And similar with Gwyneth Paltrow showing that like, we could 822 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,880 never have, as expected, announcing that little show, 823 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,400 which first like was only going to have a London run that that 824 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:22,000 would like get The New Yorker and New York Times and TMZ and 825 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,760 Variety talking about it, which was just ridiculous. 826 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,720 So I think you, but but my original point was just, I was 827 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,320 you can never control what other people think or will react about 828 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,000 your shows. I remember when I started out 829 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,160 how there were like certain people who I really wanted to 830 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,960 impress. I want to come and see my work. 831 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,120 And which I mean rarely happened. 832 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,160 And when it did, they didn't necessarily have the response 833 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,240 that I'd fully hoped. And then I'm like, I can, you 834 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:51,160 can never, you never know what people are going to respond. 835 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,240 You can never control what they are going to respond to it or 836 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,480 what they want to see. But what I can do is make shows 837 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,800 that I want to see and that I enjoy and that I am proud of. 838 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,200 And I feel like that's the most important thing, which sounds 839 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,800 really wanky, but like ultimately, like you can never 840 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,120 rely on on other people's thoughts. 841 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,200 The only thing you can somewhat control is your own, like your 842 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,120 own creation and what you want to tell. 843 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,880 Yeah, I completely agree. And you know, trusting your own 844 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,560 instincts and knowing, you know, what you find funny, you have to 845 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,480 I guess hope other people are going to find funny and find 846 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,600 thoughtful and that ability. I guess. 847 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,960 Do you have people that you do kind of like bounce ideas off to 848 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,560 say, do you think, you know, before we start going too far 849 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,520 down this this line, do you think this is, am I right? 850 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,200 Is this funny? Is this thoughtful? 851 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,640 Is this what people are going to want to watch? 852 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:42,240 Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously it's good to have Joseph and I 853 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,920 together because like we can quite easily stop each other if 854 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,400 one goes down like a rabbit hole. 855 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,640 We're like, well, this is funny for us, but it's actually like 856 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,280 this is too niche or this is, you know, like, well, let's keep 857 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,000 track on the actual story. And then we've also like, you 858 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,920 know, developed a lot of great collaborators who who work on 859 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,040 the show. And I think some of them have 860 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,160 said to us that like it's rare, like states managers and things 861 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,440 like that. They've said like it's rare that 862 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,920 we actually get asked by directors or writers our 863 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,400 opinions as much as you do because I feel like it's good. 864 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,120 And also like, it's not that you necessarily always like if you 865 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,280 get an opinion, it doesn't, you don't have to agree with it or 866 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:18,680 go with what they say. But I think it's always 867 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,680 interesting to to because always like there are people who are 868 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,600 creative and who, whose work we love and who trust. 869 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,240 So it's always worth like getting input from as many 870 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:31,200 different angles as possible, Like when I was when I was 871 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,400 creating Diana, for example, because I was like, I'm now 872 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,360 creating a show about like, you know, a woman and her breaking 873 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,480 free from her marriage and so on. 874 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,040 And as like, you know, a man doing that. 875 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,120 I want to make sure that it's not see like that I, it never 876 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,640 comes across as like sexist or that I'm just like, you know, 877 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,440 mocking anything like that. So I think that was important to 878 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,280 have those conversations. And I'm like, yeah, I feel like 879 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,440 it becomes such a collaborative process and it's really exciting 880 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,120 to see how, you know, you give people the brief or ideas and 881 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,480 have them like elevate that where they come up with like 882 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,840 design elements that we would never have thought of. 883 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,600 Or when we work, we have a lot of like video performers and 884 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,040 they will bring things and add little things like colours or, 885 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,200 or even lines because we're like, we are very free in and 886 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,200 want to make sure we get loads of different versions of 887 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,800 everything. And they will do things. 888 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,840 We're like, oh, this is great. Let's let's go down this route 889 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,760 instead. So it's, it's a very, I feel 890 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,880 like a show is a very like we always see them as these like 891 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,960 live things that are never to set. 892 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,720 They will. We are always open to try new 893 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:37,040 things and have them grow and improve, especially because 894 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,480 they're so pop culture based as well. 895 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,280 So you know, when, when Gwyneth Paltrow does something new, like 896 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,280 when she released Martyr Supreme recently, like like, oh, we can 897 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,720 add a bit of that in, you know, we never know what's going to 898 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,200 happen around these in pop cultures. 899 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,560 It's always fun to make sure that we keep the things like 900 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,920 fresh and as current and fun as possible. 901 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,920 Yeah, And you mentioned, obviously you recently took your 902 00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,760 show stateside. You're taking your show multiple 903 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,280 times to the US I'm curious about that experience because 904 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,120 there's this kind of cliche that certain humour doesn't travel 905 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,080 well, but I kind of often feel like queer culture and queer 906 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,920 humour is kind of almost universal. 907 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,080 So how was that experience? And did anything kind of about 908 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,720 the US audience, the American audience, surprise you when kind 909 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,480 of performing their shows? I think, I mean, we had an 910 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,360 amazing time and we actually like, I really loved every time 911 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,280 we've gone to the States and performed there and it has been 912 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,520 very magical. I think what is every just like 913 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,640 it is in the UK and and anywhere else as well, like the audiences 914 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,760 are a bit different. Like because we've in in the US, 915 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,680 we perform a few different places and the audience in New 916 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,560 York and LA are quite different to the ones in Park City, UT 917 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,280 where the trial happened, for example. 918 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,480 So it's interesting to see like how different things work in 919 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,760 different places. But for the for Gwyneth go 920 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,280 skiing, I think because it's an amount like set in America about 921 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,560 people who are arguably like actually way more famous in 922 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,000 America than they are here. Because it's funny how like in 923 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,200 in Gwyneth go skiing, there's this long speech with Gwyneth 924 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,280 basically gives an inspirational speech by referencing pretty 925 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:19,200 much every film she's ever done. And in the UK people get it. 926 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,680 And most people say we'll get like quite a lot of the 927 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,960 references. But in LA, every little like 928 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,040 film references picked up on every little like niche pop 929 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,400 culture reference. And I feel like obviously being 930 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,680 such like a capital for for pop culture and film in particular, 931 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,720 like it's funny to do a show like that there where where like 932 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,040 you feel like every they get every little like hidden 933 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,840 reference in the in the show that that feels very magical, 934 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,480 That feels really fun. And it's this time we took Diana 935 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,440 over for the first time, which was also amazing to see how well 936 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,560 that landed because I was it feels like obviously a much more 937 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,080 British show, but there are certain things that kills here 938 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,960 that are still getting like a nice reaction there. 939 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:04,440 But you could tell like, oh, they are not as as well versed 940 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,280 in certain parts of like, you know, the British monarchy or 941 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,880 British culture or Princess Diana's life as obviously like 942 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,720 the standard British audiences are. 943 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,320 Yeah, I think interesting. I mean, they're both such kind 944 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,560 of global icons that I guess that helps. 945 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,760 It's not like the US had never heard of Princess Diana. 946 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,480 Like, she was a universal kind of character and also a massive 947 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,520 queer icon as well, right? I think when exactly? 948 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,560 Yeah, Diana had that as well. Yeah. 949 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,360 And that becomes very much a part of the story. 950 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,120 And yeah. Right. 951 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,920 Well, we started this conversation talking about you 952 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,640 as your younger self. So I want to revisit them 953 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:40,520 because if you could give your younger self one piece of 954 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,240 advice, what would it be? And then would it be different 955 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:47,480 if I said, what advice would you just give to a LGBTQ plus person 956 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:54,200 today in 2026? I think don't take things too 957 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,240 seriously because like, I do think actually, especially like, 958 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,600 you know, when you're young and when you're I just like I spent 959 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,400 so many of my teenage years just like feeling unhappy, feeling 960 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,880 unconfident, but actually, and I got worrying about some of the 961 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,400 things that actually don't matter. 962 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,720 Well, like, you know, life is ridiculous that everyone is 963 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,240 ridiculous and everyone is so, you know, like awkward and 964 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,400 stupid. So like we might as well just 965 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:25,160 have fun, but also to find, find your like your outfit and your 966 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,840 people. Because I feel like for so many 967 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,480 years I didn't really like, I stopped myself on doing so many 968 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,360 things I enjoyed and I didn't do any theatre or anything. 969 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,320 But when I did that, that really opened up so much. 970 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,240 And I feel like there are, yeah, do more theatre basically. 971 00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:40,920 That's my advice. Like the quicker you find that 972 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,600 and you find your outfit and find your people, like you will 973 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,360 flourish. Whichever the guess is like a 974 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,280 generic advice. It's because I do feel like 975 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,200 wherever you are and whatever your interests are or whatever 976 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:58,560 you do, like there are people who will, who will enjoy you and 977 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,480 whose company you will enjoy and who will make you a better 978 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:03,680 person. Because I feel like it's such a 979 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,120 difference when you are surrounded by people, even if 980 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,480 they're nice, but like that don't actually like, you know, 981 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,560 inspire you and bring out the best of you. 982 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,320 And there are those people for everyone. 983 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,800 So I feel like it's it's about finding, finding those people 984 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,520 and those outlets. Yeah, I love that. 985 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,520 I think that's great advice. I think the sooner you can find, 986 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,480 to your point, your people, but also the things you're 987 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,240 passionate about that you're good at and kind of combine 988 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:29,240 those two things, it leads to kind of a lot more happiness, a 989 00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,120 lot more comfortable life, and also the ability to kind of be 990 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,080 your authentic self fully. Linus, thank you so much for 991 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,600 being on Quit Talk with Me today. 992 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,320 This has been such an incredible conversation. 993 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,160 I've loved learning more and more about your shows. 994 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,200 Clearly I'm going to have to look out for your next friend 995 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,480 show and I'll be coming up to check it out and that'll be my 996 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:47,760 excuse. Perfect first time. 997 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,120 But I just really appreciate what you do from a queer 998 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,520 culture, pop culture perspective, telling those 999 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,360 stories, giving us all kind of that that escapism that we all 1000 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,280 need sometimes to kind of just laugh and enjoy a show. 1001 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,320 So I really appreciate your work, but I really appreciate 1002 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:03,720 you being on Queer Talk with me today. 1003 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,080 Thank you, Ben. It's been a lot of fun. 1004 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:06,600 Thank you.