In order for me to be able to have these open conversations
and just be myself in sport, I felt like I had to come out.
I had a lot of Black people can't swim, Black people sink in
water. I think that drive kind of
helped me actually achieve the impossible or what I thought was
impossible because I had so many different voices in my head
telling me that can't be done. But I think for most queer,
LGBTQ plus people, you do have a lot of time in the darkness.
And I think when you do come out, you need that support, you
need that representation. You know, everyone kind of goes
in and say they want an Olympic medal.
I never got kind of my Olympic medal, but I got my Olympic kind
of moment. So I think it's tough because
actually I'm changing and I don't know if people accept
that. Hello and welcome back to the
Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories.
This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben Cicchetti.
Before we get to my conversation with the incredible and
inspiring Michael Gunning, I've got a quick favour to ask.
If you enjoy this episode. Hit that subscribe button
wherever you enjoy this podcast and help us grow it in 2026.
But now let's jump straight into my conversation with Michael.
Michael, you are our first guest of 2026, So I'd like to break
from tradition and start by asking you about your hopes,
dreams and goals for 20260. Yes, well, firstly, happy New
Year to everyone. I hope you had a good festive
season. But yeah, this year, I think
last year I travelled a lot and I think I as an athlete, I have
travelled quite a lot anyway. But all I see is the swimming
pool and the hotel or the village or wherever I'm staying.
So I think it was really nice last year to, to, to just travel
and get myself out there and actually see places.
But I think this year again, more travel, but I want to take
myself out of my comfort zone. I want to try new things.
I need new challenges. Yeah, I think I always start
every year thinking, Oh my gosh, I've not got enough staff or
work. And it's always kind of this
pressure. But I think I'm going to embrace
been in a little bit uncomfortable and seeing what
the year brings. I love that, keep crushing it,
keep doing amazing things. That's a great way to look at
the year ahead. Well, we will now jump into our
queer panic rapid fire questions that are just designed to get to
know you a little bit better. And you just respond with the
first thing that comes to mind, starting with what was the first
album you ever owned? Oh.
I'm going to say Ariana Grande, definitely, yeah.
Amazing, amazing choice. I love that.
If you had to lip sync for your life, what song would you
choose? What a question.
Oh, I don't know. I I'm a massive fan of ABBA and
Mamma Mia, so I feel like because I know it word for word,
I could probably lip sync it quite well.
But yes, yeah, that's a hard one.
Yeah, you can bring the drama. I like that.
I can see that totally being a thing.
Oh yeah, I think. Does your mother know?
Let's go with that. Oh, there we go.
Pulled it out. Great.
What is your favourite? Queer movie or TV show?
Oh, these questions are hard. I think I love Call Me By Your
Name because it's just incredible.
It gets you in all the fields, but also it's not necessarily
the engine I want or anyone wants.
And I think that is OK. That is sometimes life.
So I think yeah, even though it's not my most favourite, I
think in LGBT queer media is really powerful.
Yeah, I love that choice. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
I'm going to have to say Jonathan Bailey.
I think. That representation in the media
is just amazing. He is helping people along the
way with obviously just Like us, the charity, and he's just an
absolute LGBT icon. I love that, I love that and the
world's sexiest man 2025 so that's a great.
I mean, I know. What is your biggest red flag?
Oh, selfishness. That was a quick answer.
I think, you know, I'm all about bringing people up, bringing
people along on the journey. So anyone that is just out for
themselves, that is only thinking of themselves, I'm not
here for it. So yeah, that's a massive red
flag for me. Yeah, I agree.
And obviously you were nominated to be on this podcast by our
mutual friend Oliver Day. So in return, who is one person
you would like to hear on the podcast?
Oh, you think there's probably many people, but I'm going to
say James Barr because we are actually completely different
people. But somehow we are really good
friends. We always have so much banter
and every time he talks about something, I think we learn so
much of each other. And every time he talks about
something, I'm like a sponge and I absorb it all.
And I think, yeah, he'd be a really good guest for the
podcast. OK, I love that.
James, I'm going to be sliding into your DMS very soon to get
you on the podcast. That's great.
And then final of our quick panic questions, what is one
word you would use to describe your childhood?
00 in one word. Yeah, it's a challenge.
I'm going to say unique. Yeah, OK.
I think many highs and lows in my childhood.
Many, many highs. Like my family are incredible
and I will always be the biggest family person.
But I would actually say I'm very different in my family and
at home to when I was at school and in my swimming sessions when
I was younger because I was trying to be someone that I
wasn't in those areas, but I could actually be myself at
home. So yeah, I think quite unique
because not many people have to switch between roles.
Yeah, yeah. That could be and could be quite
exhausting. And I guess obviously you say
unique and we kind of touched on your childhood there a little
bit. You know, I have this theory
that to understand an LGBTQ plus person as an adult, you do first
need to understand them as a young person.
So based on that, based on unique, what should I know about
you as a child or a teenager to understand the Michael that sits
in front of me today? Oh, yeah.
I think I was just always overcompensating.
I was always trying to prove people wrong.
I was always trying to almost blend in.
But as I just mentioned, like when I was at home, I was the
complete opposite. And I was trying to stand out.
And actually don't know how my parents and my brother put up
with me because I was a lot at home.
But yeah, I think I was just trying to overcompensate for
just trying to fit in and being normal at school and at training
and just being out and about. So yeah, unfortunately there was
a lot of suppression, but I could be who I wanted to be at
home. And then do you think that kind
of overcompensation and that desire to prove people wrong, do
you think that also helped you from a competitor perspective?
And from a competitive perspective, did it push you
when you when you kind of got in the pool and you were swimming?
Oh, absolutely. I was so dedicated and I was
always just trying to justify things to myself because people
would always used to say to me, you would never be able to do
that. You'd never be able to do the
butterfly. And I had a lot of black people
can't swim, Black people sink in water.
And I was like, right, watch me. And it was kind of all through
life, you know, like whether it was a competition I was aiming
for, whether it was something that I was going for.
I think that drive kind of helped me actually achieve the
impossible, or what I thought was the impossible because I had
so many different voices in my head telling me that can't be
done. Yeah.
And then I guess in that environment, in that kind of
very the sports environment, an environment where you were
trying to hide such a big part of yourself.
Do you remember the first LGBTQ plus person you became aware of,
either in real life or in the media, and kind of how that felt
seeing that person for you? Yeah, I think the very first
person was Ellen DeGeneres, to be honest, because just being on
television, she was really authentic.
I can't ever recall her talking about her sexuality, but I think
it was just nice to see someone being so raw and authentic on
screen. But probably the first person to
me was Tom Daley, because obviously he had such a big
coming out in the world of sport, in the world in general.
I also used to, I used to know him as well.
I knew him, I used to train alongside him, so I think it was
really nice to be able to see that representation and be able
to ask questions to him and speak about it because I think
it's hard when you see it on television and sometimes there's
that block. You can't always go and just ask
him questions. Whereas I was really lucky that
I could just go up to Tom and tell him how I felt.
I never said I'm the same. I just kind of was really open
and said this is how I feel right now.
I don't feel myself and a lot of anxiety and he kind of helped
show me on that path into self discovery and learning to love
myself, which I'm really lucky to.
Yeah, to have someone like him to help.
Yeah. And that was such a huge moment
when Tom came out, and it was so positively received.
Obviously in the mainstream, I'm sure, you know, as everyone
experiences it, there may have been some negativity for him
through social media, but largely it was such an
overwhelmingly positive experience for him.
Did that help you in your journey, seeing it so amazingly
received? Did you feel like there was hope
for you as you kind of went on your own journey?
Yeah, I think it also brought a lot of anxiety as well, to be
honest, because I think I knew, especially with MyHeritage of
Jamaica and just being in sport, I think honestly, the media have
such a big part to play, but you never really know how people are
going to receive it, you know, And I remember when I came out,
I had so many messages saying who cares, you know, why are you
talking about this? It's, you know, but actually it
was a big deal to me, and in order for me to be able to have
these open conversations and just be myself in sport, I felt
like I had to come out. But you know, ultimately what we
want is for no one to officially come out.
Everyone can just talk about their partners or who they're
dating and it'd just be normal. But unfortunately, still in
2026, it's not. Yeah, and we do still need
people like you, right? Because that people will have
seen you do that. So people say, you know, why do
you need to come out? And so on and so forth.
Because of where we are with society, people need to be able
to see people like you come out, people who look like them, sound
like them, act like them, love like them, come out so they know
it's possible for them to do it. Oh, definitely.
You know, I think for most LGBT people there is always that dark
tunnel that you go through at some point.
Some people might be lucky and not have to go through that
tunnel. But I think for most queer LGBTQ
plus people, you do have a lot of time in the darkness.
And I think when you do come out, you need that support.
You need that representation. I'm still get so overwhelmed by
how many messages I get, people just saying that they've seen my
story and they've understood, they've recognised kind of that
path that they're on. And it's just nice because I'm
just being myself. I'm just living, you know,
finally authentically. But it's just nice to know that
I'm just Michael, and people can kind of draw a bit of
inspiration from that. 100% So in that kind of experience and
then and in your kind of journey, do you remember, many
of us kind of remember that first feeling or that first
spark of our inner queerness and you might call it.
Do you remember that first time you felt that in yourself and
realised that you you know you might be queer?
You know, unfortunately not. I think just being in swimming,
being around lots of good looking people.
I think I remember having those feelings but shutting them down
immediately because I was like, we're in a sport environment,
you know, this isn't normal. And I remember saying that so
many times in my head that, you know, I want to be normal.
And I think because I was already so different in
swimming, being a person of colour, you know, I was one of
the only mixed race or black people in the British team that
at the time I just didn't want to be further different from
everyone else. So, yeah, I do remember having
those feelings, but going no, no, suppressing it and kind of
putting it into a box, which no one should have to do, you know?
And I think now that I'm so open and proud of who I am, I think I
just want to open everyone's boxes and show them that it's
OK, you know? Yeah.
And you mentioned a little bit earlier on, and I can definitely
feel it through this is you come across as so incredibly
authentic, like it feels like you were just you, no matter
what you're doing. When do you think you first felt
that authenticity? And then when did you feel, you
know what, I can just bring that to everything.
I do not feel I have to hide any part of who I am.
Yeah, I think so. I actually went obviously on a
little dating show a few years ago and I think that was the
first time that I was with LGBTQ plus people and I could have
these open conversations. So I think for me, that was when
I really felt comfortable having these questions and opening up
and talking about it because it was just like minded people.
And then I think from then going to Pride events, you know, being
with the community, being with allies, people that you just can
celebrate and just be yourself with.
Yeah, I think it that just opened up a whole new world for
me because finally I wasn't alone anymore and there was so
many people I can talk to, even from the straight community, who
could just listen and understand and share their knowledge.
Yeah, I think it's so incredibly important, those moments where
the community comes together and you attended Manchester Pride
this year for the first time and that was an incredibly important
and poignant moment for you. What did that moment mean to you
attending Pride in in Manchester in 2025?
Yeah, last year attending Manchester was really special
because personally I trained in Manchester for many years and in
2017 I was at the Underground, a concert that unfortunately got
bombed. So I think for me, being with
people, I've always been a little bit anxious.
And even though I do attend Pride, other Pride events, I try
to kind of stay in, you know, even behind the scenes, either
up on the stage where I can see everyone, but I'm not normally
immersed in the crowd just because I have a lot of anxiety
around it. So last year actually being part
of the parade in Manchester was so special because I just wanted
to dedicate it to the lives that I'd lost.
I wanted to dedicate it to the people that show up and allowed
me to be myself and for me to be proud of who I am.
Yeah, it was. It really meant a huge lot to be
honest, last year, but very emotional as well.
I remember feeling so flat the next day because obviously there
is so much emotion and kind of that feeling that goes into the
day itself that the day after you kind of feel a bit flat.
So I think that was tough. But actually, you know, life's a
roller coaster. You ride the waves and that was
a huge wave for me because it just meant so much more than
just walking the parade or just attending the Pride event.
It actually had a story behind it.
Yeah, I think it was incredibly important and it was incredibly
moving to kind of hear about and hear about that experience.
One of the things you've spoken about is how swimming gave you
structure and purpose from such a young age.
What, what role do you feel that that sport played in shaping who
you are today, both as an athlete and just as a person?
Like what did the swimming world do to you?
Oh, I think it just made me resilient for anyone to swim 30
hours a week and cover 60 to 80,000 metres every week.
You've got to be a different kind of breeds because even now,
you know, I, I swim now for fun, but I don't get anywhere near
kind of that meat Ridge or that hours in the pool.
So I think it just teaches you to be resilient and to just go
for your goal, whatever it is. And I think in my swimming
career, for many that many times I felt like a failure because
I've not quite achieved what I set out to achieve.
Everyone kind of goes in and say they want an Olympic medal.
I never got kind of my Olympic medal, but I got my Olympic kind
of moment. I think everyone gets their
Olympic moment, whether you're in the Olympics, whether you're
in the corporate industry, you know, you kind of go for that
gold winning moment. And for me, I think even though
we don't always get there, that's OK.
And it teaches you that there is so much more in that pro in that
process. Yeah, but you did get incredibly
close, right? And I think it's in, you know,
it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on that and not to kind
of dredge up hopefully old wounds or any kind of negativity
on it. But, you know, you came
incredibly close to competing at the Olympics and you secured a
selection spot for Jamaica for the 2020 Olympics.
And obviously we all know what happened in 2020.
The world changed forever. COVID changed a lot of people's
plans. But as you reflect on that
moment, what did it mean to you to to secure that selection
spot? And then with time and distance,
how do you kind of reflect on it and feel on it today?
Yeah, You know, I think there's no better feeling than
qualifying for a team or set in a certain time that you've been
aiming for. I was over the moon because I
was in the best shape of my life.
And I think I was just so excited of the future.
And I think, you know, like we said, sometimes it doesn't
always pan out. And unfortunately it didn't with
that that year and everything that happens.
But I think again, it's just made me more resilient and it's
made me take a step back and appreciate other things of what
sport can give you, of what me and, you know, having a teammate
and yeah, there is just so much more than than the life gives
you really. I think you've got to look
beyond it and go, this is who we are, this is what we do.
We might be doing this on a Monday, but actually take a step
back. What else is happening on that
Monday? You know, like even just a
simple smile for me, walk around, you'll know me.
I've always got a smile on my face.
But actually, you don't know how that can impact someone.
So I think, yeah, that moment, even though it was so tough, I
look back and actually me coming back and me supporting the
Olympics and me obviously kind of helping with Pride House and
being involved in all the different things that I'm now
involved in probably came from that moment of feeling a little
bit disappointed or not quite getting what I wanted and using
it as fuel to then go into the next thing.
So yeah, I think it's definitely made me even more resilient than
I already was. Yeah.
And, and let's be clear, that's such an incredible achievement
to have got that right. So, you know, it's all context,
I understand. But for anybody outside that
world to have got to that level of elite athlete, to that level
is incredibly impressive and incredibly important.
And you said something earlier that I just wanted to kind of
pull in a little bit. As you said that, you know,
growing up and in that kind of swimming world, you didn't see
people who look like you love, like you kind of in the swimming
in the swimming world. How did that absence of
representation impact you? And what does it now mean for
you to be, you know, that role model for others that are going
to see you and know that they can achieve their goals no
matter what they look like, how they love or or anything else?
I think in life we see different opportunities as boxes and we've
got to fit into certain boxes. For me, as an athlete, I always
felt like I needed to fit into that elite athlete box and be
masculine and be really intimidating and kind of scare
people before I step up into the race.
But actually when I was myself and I could be relaxed and I
could wave to the crowd and I could just do it for me, I think
that's when I was fast, that's when I succeeded, that's when I
got the times I wanted. And even now I've stepped away,
you know, I think obviously now I'm stepping into the
entertainment industry. And I think at the beginning I
tried to fit into that box of what do I need to be like?
This is what I need to do. I need to go to that event.
I need to do this. And I think now I'm actually
realising I just need to be me because if it's meant to be,
I'll keep knocking on those doors.
You know, when I was swimming, I kept going to those competitions
and just kind of being my authentic self.
And that is when I succeeded. So I think it's nice now that
people are seeing that in the workplaces, no matter who you
are, I think people now can take away those boxes and go, this is
who I am and this is what I can bring to that role or to that
athlete, which I think is really special and everyone needs to do
that really. Yeah, I agree.
The way that comes off your shoulders when you can just be
your authentic self all the time and just accept that, yes, maybe
that might mean, you know, certain opportunities won't work
out or whatever it might be. Just being yourself the the
relief you feel and not having to hide who you are at all times
is incredible. And so it is such an important
message to people that they should kind of be authentic and
just kind of live their life because, you know, we only get
one go at this. So let's let's make it worth it.
Absolutely. And you, we mentioned you were
nominated to be on the podcast by Ella Verday.
And they wanted me to ask you a question.
And they wanted me to ask you, how did life as an elite athlete
with all the training, structure and sacrifices that come with
it, affect your experience or your gay experience and your
ability to date or form relationships or form close
friendships? So what kind of impact did that
do you think that had on you from a personal perspective?
Oh, what a question, Nick. I know going in hard straight
away. I think it just made me feel so
isolated again because there was not many people who was there
living it and that I felt like I could look up to or talk about
it to someone. Obviously my coach.
I love my coach, I love my teammates.
But again, we're there to do the job, we're there to swim.
And I think sometimes that took over.
Sometimes we we thought to ourselves, right?
You know, we're here because of this role when actually we can
bring ourselves, you know, and those different pieces that we
learn and the highs and lows every to train every day.
You know, we hear about the workplace.
Well, for me for so many years, the swimming pool, the gym, the
the competition weekend, that was my workplace.
But actually got to be yourself, you know, So I think for me, it
was like a lot of suppression that just again, ticking those
boxes kind of fit, trying to fit in when actually I should have
just been me and had those jokes and had those, you know,
conversations because, you know, takes up so much of your life.
But also I don't regret a single moment of it.
It's it's so rewarding. And whether you do it for a
sport purpose, whether you're just learning to swim or
learning a new skill, it can bring you so much in that
process. Yeah, I agree.
And we touched on this a little bit, but you came out publicly
on the BI life. What did that moment mean to you
and what was going through your mind at the time and how did it
kind of change your life and your trajectory that moment
forward? Yeah, I think the main thing for
me was I didn't want to have to sit down with everyone and have
to come out to everyone individually.
It was really nice to just be on a show and just have these
conversations. And, you know, I'd never been on
a date before. I'd never experienced it.
I never really had these conversations with, you know,
the LGBT community before. So I think it was really nice
just to be open, be myself, have these conversations and just
come out once to this amazing group of people that I felt like
they were at the time, they were like my family because everyone
just understood they were listening.
And obviously it was then broadcast to the world and then
and then I just had so much love and support.
A lot of hate as well. You know, I think there's always
the highs and lows. And I think especially with
MyHeritage of being with Jamaica, it is illegal to hold
hands in Jamaica. There's still that, you know,
anti anti law for LGBTQ plus people.
But I think for me, it was almost like the start of
something special because finally I could be myself, but
also I could give back and help other areas of of the world that
I never really had the platform to do.
So yeah, it was really overwhelming.
But the love definitely outweighed the hate.
And yeah, I was totally overwhelmed.
So I think that's when my life changed because actually then I
was seen as this inspirational personality when I was just
being Michael. So yeah, crazy.
And do you feel like you need to compartmentalise any element of
that? Like, you know, you obviously
have to protect yourself in your own mental well-being, but
there's and there must be a lot of pressure knowing that so many
people are looking at you, so many people are kind of paying
attention to what you do. How do you kind of deal with
that struggle or if it is a struggle of kind of Michael
day-to-day versus Michael the kind of the public figure?
Yeah, I think you kind of have to sign over and admit that
there will always be people that are judging you, that people
always think that they have an opinion of you before they
actually know you. I think I'm really lucky because
I'm so authentic, and whether you meet me on a good day or a
bad day, you'll probably see all those traits because I'm so raw.
And I want to give it to everyone.
I want to make sure that everyone knows that no, this is
the role, Michael, and you can come to me whether you're
stabbed, if you're happy. No, No matter what it is, but I
think it definitely takes a toll because I'm not always happy.
But again, when I do kind of post a picture online, being a
swimmer, I think I'm massively insecure because obviously now
I've retired and I don't know like what I once looked like.
So I think there is this pressure of going, oh, can I
post that or can I share that with people?
So I think it's tough because actually I'm changing and yeah,
and I don't know if people accept that, which I should do.
I should be like, it's fine, people are going to accept me.
But I think there's that's always in your mind because
you're living so publicly in in that public eye.
And that is such an incredible transition to go on, right?
You retired from professional swimming in 2022.
Like how, how did a, how did you come to that decision to retire?
But then also kind of what was that transition like?
You know, you, as you said, you were kind of defined by being an
elite athlete. That was your scheduled
day-to-day. That's what you were focused on
and finding that kind of that next purpose beyond the pool.
You know what? Knowing when to retire and
actually officially announcing the retirement is such a scary
point because your life changes overnight and suddenly you are
this unreal athlete. But you know it's in a bubble or
not many people understand that bubble to suddenly being a
normal human being. And I think, you know, my thing
is actually what is normal. Everyone's journey is different.
So even though I was so scared to actually say I'm done, I knew
that I'd always be connected with swimming and with sport and
with empowering young people to learn to swim or to try a new
challenge. So yeah, I think it was a
really, really tough decision and it is for everyone.
But I think when you know, you know, and deep down, I was like,
I'm ready to give back in other ways.
You know, I do love swimming. I still swim, but it's not my Bo
and endo anymore. So I think it was really hard to
kind of sign away and say I'm not the athlete.
And to be fair, I still say I'm a, I'm not say I'm a former
athlete or a professional swimmer.
So I still keep that identity. It's just nice now to kind of
use it in other ways and to see what is next.
Yeah, I can't believe I've retired from swimming.
When I say that people don't believe me.
They're like, you're retired already.
But you know, I'm on to my next chapter, which is amazing.
Yeah, I'm actually curious because like obviously I'm
clearly I'm never going to be an elite athlete.
But like when you change jobs at that very, you never know.
You never know what could happen.
We'll keep the door open. But when you change jobs in kind
of my world, there is that strange feeling literally the
day after your last day when you woke up the day after you
retired. How did that feel?
Did you, was there a strange I should be going to the pool, but
I'm not like how was kind of that first initial day in that
initial morning? Honestly, it felt awful because
I remember drinking loads of wine and having that burger that
I've always wanted and I just done everything and then
realised I shouldn't have done it all in that, that one day.
And, you know, actually it's not not greener on the other side.
Like, because I've always said how I'd love to, you know, go
out with my friends and all the things that I missed when I was
an athlete, I kind of thought that, oh, I can make up for it
now. And you know, don't get me
wrong, I definitely, I'm still going out now and it's nice to
kind of have that. But you don't need to do it all.
And I think it's your mindset. For so long, I thought I was
missing out and I was, oh, I'm looking forward to actually
stepping away and being a normal person.
But it's not greener on the other side, you know, and that
balance. And I think actually lockdown
taught us a lot because, you know, we do commit so much, we
sacrifice so much. But it's OK to go to that party
now and again. It's OK to have a few glasses of
wine or alcohol, you know, if you're still that elite swimmer
because it's a balance, you know, And I remember as well
with Tom Daily, we kind of had a year out of alcohol and it just,
it didn't really help us. You know, I think there was
elements where our training was better.
But I think just go in and switching and going, this is,
you know, sacrifice. I'm going to do it to be better.
Sometimes it doesn't always work out that way.
So, yeah, I always thought that day after I retired would be
amazing. But yeah, I kind of felt really
unhealthy and was like, I want to eat healthy again and I want
to swim. I want I missed it which is
crazy. Yeah, that makes total sense.
And today, like if you went swimming today and there are
people in the pool and they're doing laps with you, can you
with kind of hold on to that competitive nature or do you
kind of find yourself looking around and kind of racing people
that don't even know they're being raced by you?
I will always have that competitive nature.
I don't think people like me in the public swimming pool, but if
I'm not racing someone, I'm going right, let's try and lap
them. Let's let you know, let's see
how many times I can surpass them.
I think there's always that competitive, you know, streak
inside me. But I think it's all about
having goals. I think what I need to actually
do is set different goals because I've done that when I
was swimming. So now I almost need to set it
outside. And I think this year, I want a
year full of challenges. I want to take myself out my
comfort zone. I want to do something
different. I want to push myself in other
ways that that might not be sport, that might be in other
areas. But I think everyone needs that
drive. They can't just be doing
something for the sake of doing it.
So yeah. And even though I'm like, I want
to get my 6 pack, keep my 6 pack, sometimes just not enough,
you know, you need other goals, you need other drives.
So yeah. That actually is such an
interesting point because you know, swimmers, there is a
certain expectation to look a certain way, right?
Did you feel that pressure, or does that my naive mind, does
that naturally come from the schedule of what you're doing,
or did you feel such an incredible pressure to look a
certain way because you knew what people's expectations were?
Honestly, no, that was just our training.
And I think it's only now that I've stepped away and I'm
looking back and I'm going, wow, like I was so fit there.
And you know, some of the sessions I used to do, I get in
the water now and I'm like, how did I do that?
And you take it for granted because you're in this bubble,
you're in this athlete bubble that you're just doing it for
your job. So now to kind of keep looking
that way or to keep that fitness level up, not that it's a chore,
but it's very tough at times. You know, when I was swimming, I
would set my alarm for 5:00 AM and I would get up out of bed,
no question, because that was my job.
Whereas now to do exercise in the morning, it's hard work.
I don't know how everyone does it.
Yeah, that's totally true. I'm a morning workout person, so
I'm up at 5:30 and go to the gym every day.
So yeah, I can totally appreciate.
That that tough schedule? Absolutely.
So I'd like to kind of revisit someone we started this
conversation talk about. We started this conversation
talking about young Michael. So I'd like to revisit him.
If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what
would it be? And would it be different if I
said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus person
today? Oh, good question.
I think I would tell myself that it's OK to be different.
You know, like I mentioned, I was trying so often to fit in,
to be like everyone else, that when I was at home I could then
be crazy Michael and I could be the centre of attention and
enjoy myself. And you know, and I think when I
was on holiday again, I was just me, which was so special.
But then when I went back to school, when I went back to
swimming, I was fitting into that role.
So I think I would just tell younger me to embrace being
different because it is your superpower.
And to be honest, it's probably the same for other young LGBTQ
plus people. Because again, I think there is
society and social media that make you want to be a certain
way or act a certain way. But actually the people now
especially, you know, all the young tick tockers, I'm still
not on that kind of hype. But I think actually they're
standing out because they are different.
And it's so wonderful to see just people being uniquely them.
So yeah, the advice, especially to a young person, is to be
uniquely you. Is that a phrase?
Be uniquely you. I like is now I'm.
Going to take that, yeah. I love that and I think that's
such good advice. And I think in many ways, it's
so important to have people like you who can show people that is
possible, right? And I've touched on a number of
times, but as we kind of wrap up this podcast, I just think it's
such an incredible thing that you've done.
Obviously such an incredible career in in the swimming pool
and achieving what you achieve. But then as a person, showing
people that no matter what, they can achieve their goals.
But more important even than achieving their goals, they can
just live happy, authentic lives.
So I just want to say thank you so much for all you've done for
the community, but also thank you so much for being on Queer
Talker with me today. Honestly, it's a pleasure.
I think there is such power in sharing your journey and sharing
like minded voices. So yeah, your podcast is
amazing. I'm honoured to be the first one
of 2026 and looking forward to hearing all your other ones and
who you've got next.