1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,960 In order for me to be able to have these open conversations 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,480 and just be myself in sport, I felt like I had to come out. 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,200 I had a lot of Black people can't swim, Black people sink in 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,720 water. I think that drive kind of 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,960 helped me actually achieve the impossible or what I thought was 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,600 impossible because I had so many different voices in my head 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,560 telling me that can't be done. But I think for most queer, 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,840 LGBTQ plus people, you do have a lot of time in the darkness. 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,120 And I think when you do come out, you need that support, you 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,840 need that representation. You know, everyone kind of goes 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,560 in and say they want an Olympic medal. 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,840 I never got kind of my Olympic medal, but I got my Olympic kind 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,160 of moment. So I think it's tough because 14 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:54,560 actually I'm changing and I don't know if people accept 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,520 that. Hello and welcome back to the 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,000 Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories. 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,040 This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben Cicchetti. 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,560 Before we get to my conversation with the incredible and 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,440 inspiring Michael Gunning, I've got a quick favour to ask. 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,160 If you enjoy this episode. Hit that subscribe button 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,040 wherever you enjoy this podcast and help us grow it in 2026. 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,080 But now let's jump straight into my conversation with Michael. 23 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,080 Michael, you are our first guest of 2026, So I'd like to break 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,520 from tradition and start by asking you about your hopes, 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,960 dreams and goals for 20260. Yes, well, firstly, happy New 26 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,120 Year to everyone. I hope you had a good festive 27 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,760 season. But yeah, this year, I think 28 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,800 last year I travelled a lot and I think I as an athlete, I have 29 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,160 travelled quite a lot anyway. But all I see is the swimming 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,480 pool and the hotel or the village or wherever I'm staying. 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,480 So I think it was really nice last year to, to, to just travel 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,920 and get myself out there and actually see places. 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,160 But I think this year again, more travel, but I want to take 34 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,400 myself out of my comfort zone. I want to try new things. 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,680 I need new challenges. Yeah, I think I always start 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,840 every year thinking, Oh my gosh, I've not got enough staff or 37 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,200 work. And it's always kind of this 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,039 pressure. But I think I'm going to embrace 39 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,360 been in a little bit uncomfortable and seeing what 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,640 the year brings. I love that, keep crushing it, 41 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:16,840 keep doing amazing things. That's a great way to look at 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,000 the year ahead. Well, we will now jump into our 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,960 queer panic rapid fire questions that are just designed to get to 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,800 know you a little bit better. And you just respond with the 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,640 first thing that comes to mind, starting with what was the first 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,880 album you ever owned? Oh. 47 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,760 I'm going to say Ariana Grande, definitely, yeah. 48 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,800 Amazing, amazing choice. I love that. 49 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,840 If you had to lip sync for your life, what song would you 50 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,000 choose? What a question. 51 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,360 Oh, I don't know. I I'm a massive fan of ABBA and 52 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,640 Mamma Mia, so I feel like because I know it word for word, 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,840 I could probably lip sync it quite well. 54 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,840 But yes, yeah, that's a hard one. 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,040 Yeah, you can bring the drama. I like that. 56 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,360 I can see that totally being a thing. 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:10,920 Oh yeah, I think. Does your mother know? 58 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,000 Let's go with that. Oh, there we go. 59 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:15,320 Pulled it out. Great. 60 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,280 What is your favourite? Queer movie or TV show? 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:27,040 Oh, these questions are hard. I think I love Call Me By Your 62 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Name because it's just incredible. 63 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,600 It gets you in all the fields, but also it's not necessarily 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,440 the engine I want or anyone wants. 65 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,560 And I think that is OK. That is sometimes life. 66 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,360 So I think yeah, even though it's not my most favourite, I 67 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,480 think in LGBT queer media is really powerful. 68 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,000 Yeah, I love that choice. Who is your ultimate queer icon? 69 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,520 I'm going to have to say Jonathan Bailey. 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,960 I think. That representation in the media 71 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,800 is just amazing. He is helping people along the 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,040 way with obviously just Like us, the charity, and he's just an 73 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,720 absolute LGBT icon. I love that, I love that and the 74 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,920 world's sexiest man 2025 so that's a great. 75 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:19,560 I mean, I know. What is your biggest red flag? 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,880 Oh, selfishness. That was a quick answer. 77 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:27,320 I think, you know, I'm all about bringing people up, bringing 78 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,920 people along on the journey. So anyone that is just out for 79 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,960 themselves, that is only thinking of themselves, I'm not 80 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,560 here for it. So yeah, that's a massive red 81 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,160 flag for me. Yeah, I agree. 82 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,000 And obviously you were nominated to be on this podcast by our 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,520 mutual friend Oliver Day. So in return, who is one person 84 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,800 you would like to hear on the podcast? 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:54,120 Oh, you think there's probably many people, but I'm going to 86 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,920 say James Barr because we are actually completely different 87 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,400 people. But somehow we are really good 88 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,440 friends. We always have so much banter 89 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,120 and every time he talks about something, I think we learn so 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:06,840 much of each other. And every time he talks about 91 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:10,000 something, I'm like a sponge and I absorb it all. 92 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,560 And I think, yeah, he'd be a really good guest for the 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,000 podcast. OK, I love that. 94 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,960 James, I'm going to be sliding into your DMS very soon to get 95 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,120 you on the podcast. That's great. 96 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,800 And then final of our quick panic questions, what is one 97 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,600 word you would use to describe your childhood? 98 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:34,160 00 in one word. Yeah, it's a challenge. 99 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,600 I'm going to say unique. Yeah, OK. 100 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,960 I think many highs and lows in my childhood. 101 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,560 Many, many highs. Like my family are incredible 102 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,600 and I will always be the biggest family person. 103 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,840 But I would actually say I'm very different in my family and 104 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:59,200 at home to when I was at school and in my swimming sessions when 105 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,440 I was younger because I was trying to be someone that I 106 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,440 wasn't in those areas, but I could actually be myself at 107 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,600 home. So yeah, I think quite unique 108 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,000 because not many people have to switch between roles. 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,040 Yeah, yeah. That could be and could be quite 110 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,800 exhausting. And I guess obviously you say 111 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,800 unique and we kind of touched on your childhood there a little 112 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,400 bit. You know, I have this theory 113 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,480 that to understand an LGBTQ plus person as an adult, you do first 114 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,560 need to understand them as a young person. 115 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,400 So based on that, based on unique, what should I know about 116 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:35,000 you as a child or a teenager to understand the Michael that sits 117 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,120 in front of me today? Oh, yeah. 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,680 I think I was just always overcompensating. 119 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,360 I was always trying to prove people wrong. 120 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,080 I was always trying to almost blend in. 121 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:49,200 But as I just mentioned, like when I was at home, I was the 122 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,440 complete opposite. And I was trying to stand out. 123 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,040 And actually don't know how my parents and my brother put up 124 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,560 with me because I was a lot at home. 125 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,720 But yeah, I think I was just trying to overcompensate for 126 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,120 just trying to fit in and being normal at school and at training 127 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,040 and just being out and about. So yeah, unfortunately there was 128 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,560 a lot of suppression, but I could be who I wanted to be at 129 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,800 home. And then do you think that kind 130 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,600 of overcompensation and that desire to prove people wrong, do 131 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,000 you think that also helped you from a competitor perspective? 132 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,120 And from a competitive perspective, did it push you 133 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,720 when you when you kind of got in the pool and you were swimming? 134 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,360 Oh, absolutely. I was so dedicated and I was 135 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,280 always just trying to justify things to myself because people 136 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,760 would always used to say to me, you would never be able to do 137 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,280 that. You'd never be able to do the 138 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,280 butterfly. And I had a lot of black people 139 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,440 can't swim, Black people sink in water. 140 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,040 And I was like, right, watch me. And it was kind of all through 141 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,760 life, you know, like whether it was a competition I was aiming 142 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,760 for, whether it was something that I was going for. 143 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,360 I think that drive kind of helped me actually achieve the 144 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,160 impossible, or what I thought was the impossible because I had 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,280 so many different voices in my head telling me that can't be 146 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,080 done. Yeah. 147 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,920 And then I guess in that environment, in that kind of 148 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,800 very the sports environment, an environment where you were 149 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,880 trying to hide such a big part of yourself. 150 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,480 Do you remember the first LGBTQ plus person you became aware of, 151 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,720 either in real life or in the media, and kind of how that felt 152 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,680 seeing that person for you? Yeah, I think the very first 153 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,040 person was Ellen DeGeneres, to be honest, because just being on 154 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,840 television, she was really authentic. 155 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,440 I can't ever recall her talking about her sexuality, but I think 156 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,679 it was just nice to see someone being so raw and authentic on 157 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,760 screen. But probably the first person to 158 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,200 me was Tom Daley, because obviously he had such a big 159 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,720 coming out in the world of sport, in the world in general. 160 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,120 I also used to, I used to know him as well. 161 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,760 I knew him, I used to train alongside him, so I think it was 162 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,720 really nice to be able to see that representation and be able 163 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,120 to ask questions to him and speak about it because I think 164 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,720 it's hard when you see it on television and sometimes there's 165 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,840 that block. You can't always go and just ask 166 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,640 him questions. Whereas I was really lucky that 167 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,320 I could just go up to Tom and tell him how I felt. 168 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,680 I never said I'm the same. I just kind of was really open 169 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,680 and said this is how I feel right now. 170 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:22,560 I don't feel myself and a lot of anxiety and he kind of helped 171 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:27,040 show me on that path into self discovery and learning to love 172 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,240 myself, which I'm really lucky to. 173 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,040 Yeah, to have someone like him to help. 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,320 Yeah. And that was such a huge moment 175 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,080 when Tom came out, and it was so positively received. 176 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,120 Obviously in the mainstream, I'm sure, you know, as everyone 177 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,280 experiences it, there may have been some negativity for him 178 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,480 through social media, but largely it was such an 179 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,400 overwhelmingly positive experience for him. 180 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:53,080 Did that help you in your journey, seeing it so amazingly 181 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,200 received? Did you feel like there was hope 182 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,560 for you as you kind of went on your own journey? 183 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,520 Yeah, I think it also brought a lot of anxiety as well, to be 184 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:07,000 honest, because I think I knew, especially with MyHeritage of 185 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,720 Jamaica and just being in sport, I think honestly, the media have 186 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,040 such a big part to play, but you never really know how people are 187 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,240 going to receive it, you know, And I remember when I came out, 188 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,560 I had so many messages saying who cares, you know, why are you 189 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,040 talking about this? It's, you know, but actually it 190 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,080 was a big deal to me, and in order for me to be able to have 191 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,880 these open conversations and just be myself in sport, I felt 192 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,720 like I had to come out. But you know, ultimately what we 193 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,440 want is for no one to officially come out. 194 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,360 Everyone can just talk about their partners or who they're 195 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,720 dating and it'd just be normal. But unfortunately, still in 196 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,840 2026, it's not. Yeah, and we do still need 197 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,760 people like you, right? Because that people will have 198 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,040 seen you do that. So people say, you know, why do 199 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,200 you need to come out? And so on and so forth. 200 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:52,800 Because of where we are with society, people need to be able 201 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,840 to see people like you come out, people who look like them, sound 202 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,800 like them, act like them, love like them, come out so they know 203 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,200 it's possible for them to do it. Oh, definitely. 204 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,360 You know, I think for most LGBT people there is always that dark 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,360 tunnel that you go through at some point. 206 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:09,720 Some people might be lucky and not have to go through that 207 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,480 tunnel. But I think for most queer LGBTQ 208 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,840 plus people, you do have a lot of time in the darkness. 209 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,040 And I think when you do come out, you need that support. 210 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,360 You need that representation. I'm still get so overwhelmed by 211 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,000 how many messages I get, people just saying that they've seen my 212 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,880 story and they've understood, they've recognised kind of that 213 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,520 path that they're on. And it's just nice because I'm 214 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,880 just being myself. I'm just living, you know, 215 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,560 finally authentically. But it's just nice to know that 216 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:38,520 I'm just Michael, and people can kind of draw a bit of 217 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,960 inspiration from that. 100% So in that kind of experience and 218 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,760 then and in your kind of journey, do you remember, many 219 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,040 of us kind of remember that first feeling or that first 220 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,240 spark of our inner queerness and you might call it. 221 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,640 Do you remember that first time you felt that in yourself and 222 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,720 realised that you you know you might be queer? 223 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,640 You know, unfortunately not. I think just being in swimming, 224 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,800 being around lots of good looking people. 225 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,040 I think I remember having those feelings but shutting them down 226 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,120 immediately because I was like, we're in a sport environment, 227 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,160 you know, this isn't normal. And I remember saying that so 228 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,120 many times in my head that, you know, I want to be normal. 229 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:22,920 And I think because I was already so different in 230 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,200 swimming, being a person of colour, you know, I was one of 231 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,760 the only mixed race or black people in the British team that 232 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,960 at the time I just didn't want to be further different from 233 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,280 everyone else. So, yeah, I do remember having 234 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,320 those feelings, but going no, no, suppressing it and kind of 235 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,600 putting it into a box, which no one should have to do, you know? 236 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,640 And I think now that I'm so open and proud of who I am, I think I 237 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,960 just want to open everyone's boxes and show them that it's 238 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,640 OK, you know? Yeah. 239 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,640 And you mentioned a little bit earlier on, and I can definitely 240 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,720 feel it through this is you come across as so incredibly 241 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,560 authentic, like it feels like you were just you, no matter 242 00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:00,400 what you're doing. When do you think you first felt 243 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,880 that authenticity? And then when did you feel, you 244 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,000 know what, I can just bring that to everything. 245 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,120 I do not feel I have to hide any part of who I am. 246 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,040 Yeah, I think so. I actually went obviously on a 247 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,920 little dating show a few years ago and I think that was the 248 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,840 first time that I was with LGBTQ plus people and I could have 249 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,040 these open conversations. So I think for me, that was when 250 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,720 I really felt comfortable having these questions and opening up 251 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,520 and talking about it because it was just like minded people. 252 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,720 And then I think from then going to Pride events, you know, being 253 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,960 with the community, being with allies, people that you just can 254 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,600 celebrate and just be yourself with. 255 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,280 Yeah, I think it that just opened up a whole new world for 256 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,200 me because finally I wasn't alone anymore and there was so 257 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,400 many people I can talk to, even from the straight community, who 258 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,160 could just listen and understand and share their knowledge. 259 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,000 Yeah, I think it's so incredibly important, those moments where 260 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,000 the community comes together and you attended Manchester Pride 261 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,480 this year for the first time and that was an incredibly important 262 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,600 and poignant moment for you. What did that moment mean to you 263 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,800 attending Pride in in Manchester in 2025? 264 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,640 Yeah, last year attending Manchester was really special 265 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,320 because personally I trained in Manchester for many years and in 266 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,600 2017 I was at the Underground, a concert that unfortunately got 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,840 bombed. So I think for me, being with 268 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,920 people, I've always been a little bit anxious. 269 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,800 And even though I do attend Pride, other Pride events, I try 270 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,880 to kind of stay in, you know, even behind the scenes, either 271 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,960 up on the stage where I can see everyone, but I'm not normally 272 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,760 immersed in the crowd just because I have a lot of anxiety 273 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,240 around it. So last year actually being part 274 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,560 of the parade in Manchester was so special because I just wanted 275 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,560 to dedicate it to the lives that I'd lost. 276 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,560 I wanted to dedicate it to the people that show up and allowed 277 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,320 me to be myself and for me to be proud of who I am. 278 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,120 Yeah, it was. It really meant a huge lot to be 279 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,080 honest, last year, but very emotional as well. 280 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,240 I remember feeling so flat the next day because obviously there 281 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,000 is so much emotion and kind of that feeling that goes into the 282 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,800 day itself that the day after you kind of feel a bit flat. 283 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,120 So I think that was tough. But actually, you know, life's a 284 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,240 roller coaster. You ride the waves and that was 285 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,960 a huge wave for me because it just meant so much more than 286 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,640 just walking the parade or just attending the Pride event. 287 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,760 It actually had a story behind it. 288 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,120 Yeah, I think it was incredibly important and it was incredibly 289 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,000 moving to kind of hear about and hear about that experience. 290 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,520 One of the things you've spoken about is how swimming gave you 291 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,200 structure and purpose from such a young age. 292 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,480 What, what role do you feel that that sport played in shaping who 293 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,520 you are today, both as an athlete and just as a person? 294 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,880 Like what did the swimming world do to you? 295 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:58,400 Oh, I think it just made me resilient for anyone to swim 30 296 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,440 hours a week and cover 60 to 80,000 metres every week. 297 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,160 You've got to be a different kind of breeds because even now, 298 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,880 you know, I, I swim now for fun, but I don't get anywhere near 299 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,000 kind of that meat Ridge or that hours in the pool. 300 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,920 So I think it just teaches you to be resilient and to just go 301 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,640 for your goal, whatever it is. And I think in my swimming 302 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,960 career, for many that many times I felt like a failure because 303 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,160 I've not quite achieved what I set out to achieve. 304 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,240 Everyone kind of goes in and say they want an Olympic medal. 305 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,480 I never got kind of my Olympic medal, but I got my Olympic kind 306 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,080 of moment. I think everyone gets their 307 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,120 Olympic moment, whether you're in the Olympics, whether you're 308 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,960 in the corporate industry, you know, you kind of go for that 309 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,440 gold winning moment. And for me, I think even though 310 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,160 we don't always get there, that's OK. 311 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,040 And it teaches you that there is so much more in that pro in that 312 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,720 process. Yeah, but you did get incredibly 313 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,760 close, right? And I think it's in, you know, 314 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,040 it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on that and not to kind 315 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,840 of dredge up hopefully old wounds or any kind of negativity 316 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:02,800 on it. But, you know, you came 317 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,960 incredibly close to competing at the Olympics and you secured a 318 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,640 selection spot for Jamaica for the 2020 Olympics. 319 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,400 And obviously we all know what happened in 2020. 320 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,839 The world changed forever. COVID changed a lot of people's 321 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:15,880 plans. But as you reflect on that 322 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:21,119 moment, what did it mean to you to to secure that selection 323 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,040 spot? And then with time and distance, 324 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,280 how do you kind of reflect on it and feel on it today? 325 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,480 Yeah, You know, I think there's no better feeling than 326 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,880 qualifying for a team or set in a certain time that you've been 327 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,120 aiming for. I was over the moon because I 328 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:37,760 was in the best shape of my life. 329 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,320 And I think I was just so excited of the future. 330 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:42,960 And I think, you know, like we said, sometimes it doesn't 331 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,600 always pan out. And unfortunately it didn't with 332 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,200 that that year and everything that happens. 333 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,920 But I think again, it's just made me more resilient and it's 334 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,800 made me take a step back and appreciate other things of what 335 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,840 sport can give you, of what me and, you know, having a teammate 336 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,680 and yeah, there is just so much more than than the life gives 337 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,200 you really. I think you've got to look 338 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,120 beyond it and go, this is who we are, this is what we do. 339 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:12,520 We might be doing this on a Monday, but actually take a step 340 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,800 back. What else is happening on that 341 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,080 Monday? You know, like even just a 342 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,360 simple smile for me, walk around, you'll know me. 343 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,680 I've always got a smile on my face. 344 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,040 But actually, you don't know how that can impact someone. 345 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,960 So I think, yeah, that moment, even though it was so tough, I 346 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,600 look back and actually me coming back and me supporting the 347 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,200 Olympics and me obviously kind of helping with Pride House and 348 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,160 being involved in all the different things that I'm now 349 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,280 involved in probably came from that moment of feeling a little 350 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,440 bit disappointed or not quite getting what I wanted and using 351 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,520 it as fuel to then go into the next thing. 352 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,600 So yeah, I think it's definitely made me even more resilient than 353 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,880 I already was. Yeah. 354 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,960 And, and let's be clear, that's such an incredible achievement 355 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,560 to have got that right. So, you know, it's all context, 356 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,840 I understand. But for anybody outside that 357 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,400 world to have got to that level of elite athlete, to that level 358 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,520 is incredibly impressive and incredibly important. 359 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,720 And you said something earlier that I just wanted to kind of 360 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,840 pull in a little bit. As you said that, you know, 361 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,560 growing up and in that kind of swimming world, you didn't see 362 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,720 people who look like you love, like you kind of in the swimming 363 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,960 in the swimming world. How did that absence of 364 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,440 representation impact you? And what does it now mean for 365 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,320 you to be, you know, that role model for others that are going 366 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,600 to see you and know that they can achieve their goals no 367 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,800 matter what they look like, how they love or or anything else? 368 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:40,240 I think in life we see different opportunities as boxes and we've 369 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,840 got to fit into certain boxes. For me, as an athlete, I always 370 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,800 felt like I needed to fit into that elite athlete box and be 371 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,960 masculine and be really intimidating and kind of scare 372 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,000 people before I step up into the race. 373 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:55,600 But actually when I was myself and I could be relaxed and I 374 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,440 could wave to the crowd and I could just do it for me, I think 375 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,840 that's when I was fast, that's when I succeeded, that's when I 376 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,720 got the times I wanted. And even now I've stepped away, 377 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,720 you know, I think obviously now I'm stepping into the 378 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,120 entertainment industry. And I think at the beginning I 379 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,320 tried to fit into that box of what do I need to be like? 380 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,120 This is what I need to do. I need to go to that event. 381 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,360 I need to do this. And I think now I'm actually 382 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,600 realising I just need to be me because if it's meant to be, 383 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,280 I'll keep knocking on those doors. 384 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,520 You know, when I was swimming, I kept going to those competitions 385 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,320 and just kind of being my authentic self. 386 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,000 And that is when I succeeded. So I think it's nice now that 387 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,480 people are seeing that in the workplaces, no matter who you 388 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,200 are, I think people now can take away those boxes and go, this is 389 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,400 who I am and this is what I can bring to that role or to that 390 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,520 athlete, which I think is really special and everyone needs to do 391 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,160 that really. Yeah, I agree. 392 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,240 The way that comes off your shoulders when you can just be 393 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760 your authentic self all the time and just accept that, yes, maybe 394 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,960 that might mean, you know, certain opportunities won't work 395 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,160 out or whatever it might be. Just being yourself the the 396 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,200 relief you feel and not having to hide who you are at all times 397 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,480 is incredible. And so it is such an important 398 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,000 message to people that they should kind of be authentic and 399 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,400 just kind of live their life because, you know, we only get 400 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,200 one go at this. So let's let's make it worth it. 401 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,880 Absolutely. And you, we mentioned you were 402 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,840 nominated to be on the podcast by Ella Verday. 403 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,720 And they wanted me to ask you a question. 404 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,160 And they wanted me to ask you, how did life as an elite athlete 405 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,880 with all the training, structure and sacrifices that come with 406 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,760 it, affect your experience or your gay experience and your 407 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,400 ability to date or form relationships or form close 408 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,400 friendships? So what kind of impact did that 409 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,480 do you think that had on you from a personal perspective? 410 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:48,000 Oh, what a question, Nick. I know going in hard straight 411 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:55,480 away. I think it just made me feel so 412 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,640 isolated again because there was not many people who was there 413 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,880 living it and that I felt like I could look up to or talk about 414 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,240 it to someone. Obviously my coach. 415 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:06,880 I love my coach, I love my teammates. 416 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,400 But again, we're there to do the job, we're there to swim. 417 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,520 And I think sometimes that took over. 418 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,800 Sometimes we we thought to ourselves, right? 419 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,640 You know, we're here because of this role when actually we can 420 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,000 bring ourselves, you know, and those different pieces that we 421 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,400 learn and the highs and lows every to train every day. 422 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,880 You know, we hear about the workplace. 423 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,840 Well, for me for so many years, the swimming pool, the gym, the 424 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,640 the competition weekend, that was my workplace. 425 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,280 But actually got to be yourself, you know, So I think for me, it 426 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:41,280 was like a lot of suppression that just again, ticking those 427 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,760 boxes kind of fit, trying to fit in when actually I should have 428 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,840 just been me and had those jokes and had those, you know, 429 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,600 conversations because, you know, takes up so much of your life. 430 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,840 But also I don't regret a single moment of it. 431 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,720 It's it's so rewarding. And whether you do it for a 432 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,400 sport purpose, whether you're just learning to swim or 433 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,080 learning a new skill, it can bring you so much in that 434 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,920 process. Yeah, I agree. 435 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,960 And we touched on this a little bit, but you came out publicly 436 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,280 on the BI life. What did that moment mean to you 437 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,840 and what was going through your mind at the time and how did it 438 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,920 kind of change your life and your trajectory that moment 439 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,720 forward? Yeah, I think the main thing for 440 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,280 me was I didn't want to have to sit down with everyone and have 441 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,320 to come out to everyone individually. 442 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:33,640 It was really nice to just be on a show and just have these 443 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,000 conversations. And, you know, I'd never been on 444 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,600 a date before. I'd never experienced it. 445 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,360 I never really had these conversations with, you know, 446 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,080 the LGBT community before. So I think it was really nice 447 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,880 just to be open, be myself, have these conversations and just 448 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,080 come out once to this amazing group of people that I felt like 449 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,080 they were at the time, they were like my family because everyone 450 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,480 just understood they were listening. 451 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,440 And obviously it was then broadcast to the world and then 452 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,600 and then I just had so much love and support. 453 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,440 A lot of hate as well. You know, I think there's always 454 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,000 the highs and lows. And I think especially with 455 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,880 MyHeritage of being with Jamaica, it is illegal to hold 456 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,760 hands in Jamaica. There's still that, you know, 457 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,760 anti anti law for LGBTQ plus people. 458 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,080 But I think for me, it was almost like the start of 459 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,400 something special because finally I could be myself, but 460 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,960 also I could give back and help other areas of of the world that 461 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,840 I never really had the platform to do. 462 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,600 So yeah, it was really overwhelming. 463 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,360 But the love definitely outweighed the hate. 464 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400 And yeah, I was totally overwhelmed. 465 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,960 So I think that's when my life changed because actually then I 466 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,640 was seen as this inspirational personality when I was just 467 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,120 being Michael. So yeah, crazy. 468 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,840 And do you feel like you need to compartmentalise any element of 469 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,000 that? Like, you know, you obviously 470 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,440 have to protect yourself in your own mental well-being, but 471 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,200 there's and there must be a lot of pressure knowing that so many 472 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,480 people are looking at you, so many people are kind of paying 473 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040 attention to what you do. How do you kind of deal with 474 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,720 that struggle or if it is a struggle of kind of Michael 475 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,800 day-to-day versus Michael the kind of the public figure? 476 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,360 Yeah, I think you kind of have to sign over and admit that 477 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,240 there will always be people that are judging you, that people 478 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,280 always think that they have an opinion of you before they 479 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,760 actually know you. I think I'm really lucky because 480 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,080 I'm so authentic, and whether you meet me on a good day or a 481 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,000 bad day, you'll probably see all those traits because I'm so raw. 482 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,560 And I want to give it to everyone. 483 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,320 I want to make sure that everyone knows that no, this is 484 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,360 the role, Michael, and you can come to me whether you're 485 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,800 stabbed, if you're happy. No, No matter what it is, but I 486 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,960 think it definitely takes a toll because I'm not always happy. 487 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,080 But again, when I do kind of post a picture online, being a 488 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,520 swimmer, I think I'm massively insecure because obviously now 489 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,120 I've retired and I don't know like what I once looked like. 490 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,680 So I think there is this pressure of going, oh, can I 491 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,720 post that or can I share that with people? 492 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:14,160 So I think it's tough because actually I'm changing and yeah, 493 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,480 and I don't know if people accept that, which I should do. 494 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,600 I should be like, it's fine, people are going to accept me. 495 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,840 But I think there's that's always in your mind because 496 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,160 you're living so publicly in in that public eye. 497 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,800 And that is such an incredible transition to go on, right? 498 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,640 You retired from professional swimming in 2022. 499 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,600 Like how, how did a, how did you come to that decision to retire? 500 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,000 But then also kind of what was that transition like? 501 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,320 You know, you, as you said, you were kind of defined by being an 502 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,280 elite athlete. That was your scheduled 503 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,280 day-to-day. That's what you were focused on 504 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,080 and finding that kind of that next purpose beyond the pool. 505 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,400 You know what? Knowing when to retire and 506 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,360 actually officially announcing the retirement is such a scary 507 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,440 point because your life changes overnight and suddenly you are 508 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,360 this unreal athlete. But you know it's in a bubble or 509 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,320 not many people understand that bubble to suddenly being a 510 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920 normal human being. And I think, you know, my thing 511 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,440 is actually what is normal. Everyone's journey is different. 512 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,560 So even though I was so scared to actually say I'm done, I knew 513 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,480 that I'd always be connected with swimming and with sport and 514 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,440 with empowering young people to learn to swim or to try a new 515 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,200 challenge. So yeah, I think it was a 516 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,400 really, really tough decision and it is for everyone. 517 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,840 But I think when you know, you know, and deep down, I was like, 518 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,080 I'm ready to give back in other ways. 519 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,840 You know, I do love swimming. I still swim, but it's not my Bo 520 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,400 and endo anymore. So I think it was really hard to 521 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,600 kind of sign away and say I'm not the athlete. 522 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,960 And to be fair, I still say I'm a, I'm not say I'm a former 523 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,440 athlete or a professional swimmer. 524 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,360 So I still keep that identity. It's just nice now to kind of 525 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,720 use it in other ways and to see what is next. 526 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,600 Yeah, I can't believe I've retired from swimming. 527 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:01,840 When I say that people don't believe me. 528 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,080 They're like, you're retired already. 529 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,560 But you know, I'm on to my next chapter, which is amazing. 530 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,240 Yeah, I'm actually curious because like obviously I'm 531 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,840 clearly I'm never going to be an elite athlete. 532 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,680 But like when you change jobs at that very, you never know. 533 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:16,800 You never know what could happen. 534 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,640 We'll keep the door open. But when you change jobs in kind 535 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,760 of my world, there is that strange feeling literally the 536 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,280 day after your last day when you woke up the day after you 537 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,920 retired. How did that feel? 538 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Did you, was there a strange I should be going to the pool, but 539 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,480 I'm not like how was kind of that first initial day in that 540 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,640 initial morning? Honestly, it felt awful because 541 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,840 I remember drinking loads of wine and having that burger that 542 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,720 I've always wanted and I just done everything and then 543 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,920 realised I shouldn't have done it all in that, that one day. 544 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,160 And, you know, actually it's not not greener on the other side. 545 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,240 Like, because I've always said how I'd love to, you know, go 546 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,440 out with my friends and all the things that I missed when I was 547 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,440 an athlete, I kind of thought that, oh, I can make up for it 548 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:02,640 now. And you know, don't get me 549 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,760 wrong, I definitely, I'm still going out now and it's nice to 550 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,160 kind of have that. But you don't need to do it all. 551 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,680 And I think it's your mindset. For so long, I thought I was 552 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,800 missing out and I was, oh, I'm looking forward to actually 553 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,000 stepping away and being a normal person. 554 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,520 But it's not greener on the other side, you know, and that 555 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,320 balance. And I think actually lockdown 556 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,440 taught us a lot because, you know, we do commit so much, we 557 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,240 sacrifice so much. But it's OK to go to that party 558 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,400 now and again. It's OK to have a few glasses of 559 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,480 wine or alcohol, you know, if you're still that elite swimmer 560 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,840 because it's a balance, you know, And I remember as well 561 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,520 with Tom Daily, we kind of had a year out of alcohol and it just, 562 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,240 it didn't really help us. You know, I think there was 563 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,880 elements where our training was better. 564 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880 But I think just go in and switching and going, this is, 565 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,200 you know, sacrifice. I'm going to do it to be better. 566 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,840 Sometimes it doesn't always work out that way. 567 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,280 So, yeah, I always thought that day after I retired would be 568 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,600 amazing. But yeah, I kind of felt really 569 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,240 unhealthy and was like, I want to eat healthy again and I want 570 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,160 to swim. I want I missed it which is 571 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,640 crazy. Yeah, that makes total sense. 572 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,280 And today, like if you went swimming today and there are 573 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,040 people in the pool and they're doing laps with you, can you 574 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,040 with kind of hold on to that competitive nature or do you 575 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,200 kind of find yourself looking around and kind of racing people 576 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,720 that don't even know they're being raced by you? 577 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,240 I will always have that competitive nature. 578 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,640 I don't think people like me in the public swimming pool, but if 579 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,680 I'm not racing someone, I'm going right, let's try and lap 580 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,600 them. Let's let you know, let's see 581 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,280 how many times I can surpass them. 582 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,480 I think there's always that competitive, you know, streak 583 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,160 inside me. But I think it's all about 584 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,000 having goals. I think what I need to actually 585 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600 do is set different goals because I've done that when I 586 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,200 was swimming. So now I almost need to set it 587 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,440 outside. And I think this year, I want a 588 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,600 year full of challenges. I want to take myself out my 589 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,920 comfort zone. I want to do something 590 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,760 different. I want to push myself in other 591 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760 ways that that might not be sport, that might be in other 592 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,040 areas. But I think everyone needs that 593 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,680 drive. They can't just be doing 594 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,000 something for the sake of doing it. 595 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,360 So yeah. And even though I'm like, I want 596 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,960 to get my 6 pack, keep my 6 pack, sometimes just not enough, 597 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,520 you know, you need other goals, you need other drives. 598 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,520 So yeah. That actually is such an 599 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,800 interesting point because you know, swimmers, there is a 600 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,960 certain expectation to look a certain way, right? 601 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,960 Did you feel that pressure, or does that my naive mind, does 602 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,680 that naturally come from the schedule of what you're doing, 603 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,680 or did you feel such an incredible pressure to look a 604 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,480 certain way because you knew what people's expectations were? 605 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Honestly, no, that was just our training. 606 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,160 And I think it's only now that I've stepped away and I'm 607 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,160 looking back and I'm going, wow, like I was so fit there. 608 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,640 And you know, some of the sessions I used to do, I get in 609 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,640 the water now and I'm like, how did I do that? 610 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,200 And you take it for granted because you're in this bubble, 611 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,680 you're in this athlete bubble that you're just doing it for 612 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,240 your job. So now to kind of keep looking 613 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,200 that way or to keep that fitness level up, not that it's a chore, 614 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,400 but it's very tough at times. You know, when I was swimming, I 615 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,680 would set my alarm for 5:00 AM and I would get up out of bed, 616 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,160 no question, because that was my job. 617 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,560 Whereas now to do exercise in the morning, it's hard work. 618 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,800 I don't know how everyone does it. 619 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,320 Yeah, that's totally true. I'm a morning workout person, so 620 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,040 I'm up at 5:30 and go to the gym every day. 621 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,520 So yeah, I can totally appreciate. 622 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,120 That that tough schedule? Absolutely. 623 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,800 So I'd like to kind of revisit someone we started this 624 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,520 conversation talk about. We started this conversation 625 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,600 talking about young Michael. So I'd like to revisit him. 626 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,240 If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what 627 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,480 would it be? And would it be different if I 628 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,800 said, what advice would you give to a young LGBTQ plus person 629 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,520 today? Oh, good question. 630 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,520 I think I would tell myself that it's OK to be different. 631 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,680 You know, like I mentioned, I was trying so often to fit in, 632 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,200 to be like everyone else, that when I was at home I could then 633 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,200 be crazy Michael and I could be the centre of attention and 634 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,280 enjoy myself. And you know, and I think when I 635 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,960 was on holiday again, I was just me, which was so special. 636 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,360 But then when I went back to school, when I went back to 637 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,040 swimming, I was fitting into that role. 638 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,640 So I think I would just tell younger me to embrace being 639 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,640 different because it is your superpower. 640 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,800 And to be honest, it's probably the same for other young LGBTQ 641 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,800 plus people. Because again, I think there is 642 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,560 society and social media that make you want to be a certain 643 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,200 way or act a certain way. But actually the people now 644 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,640 especially, you know, all the young tick tockers, I'm still 645 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,680 not on that kind of hype. But I think actually they're 646 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,800 standing out because they are different. 647 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,040 And it's so wonderful to see just people being uniquely them. 648 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,680 So yeah, the advice, especially to a young person, is to be 649 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,840 uniquely you. Is that a phrase? 650 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,680 Be uniquely you. I like is now I'm. 651 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,400 Going to take that, yeah. I love that and I think that's 652 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,639 such good advice. And I think in many ways, it's 653 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,880 so important to have people like you who can show people that is 654 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,760 possible, right? And I've touched on a number of 655 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,159 times, but as we kind of wrap up this podcast, I just think it's 656 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,400 such an incredible thing that you've done. 657 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,880 Obviously such an incredible career in in the swimming pool 658 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,239 and achieving what you achieve. But then as a person, showing 659 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,080 people that no matter what, they can achieve their goals. 660 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,360 But more important even than achieving their goals, they can 661 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,000 just live happy, authentic lives. 662 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,320 So I just want to say thank you so much for all you've done for 663 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,679 the community, but also thank you so much for being on Queer 664 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,320 Talker with me today. Honestly, it's a pleasure. 665 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,679 I think there is such power in sharing your journey and sharing 666 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,719 like minded voices. So yeah, your podcast is 667 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,680 amazing. I'm honoured to be the first one 668 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,720 of 2026 and looking forward to hearing all your other ones and 669 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:02,600 who you've got next.