It's about humanity in a shared love and understanding of each
other. It's fun to poke fun.
It's not fun to kick people hard when they're already down.
It's made me really emotional. I never even thought about that.
Like it's the mask that you hold onto for so long.
It's such a well developed mask. Every interaction you have,
however genuine, and since it, it's still got a few inches of
like metaphysical layer of who you're supposed to be in front
of it. It was my 2022 Edinburgh Fringe
show and it started in this leaky little shipping container
with like 75 people. And then suddenly we got a
cheeky little five star in the Guardian.
And then it sold out for the whole run.
And then they had to put us in these bigger tents and they sold
out and sold out and sold out. And then it was nominated and it
was just the most magical month of my life.
I was given a little slot on Friday Night Live where I
performed naked using a part of my body that one does not
traditionally use to play the piano.
That's the role that I'd like to have taken for myself.
A lot of comedians just want to watch the world burn.
Hello and welcome back to the Queerest podcast telling the
fiercest Stories. This is Queer Talker and I'm Ben
Cechetti. This week I sit down with the
phenomenally talented Jordan Grey.
But before we get to that conversation, I've got a very
quick favour to ask. Wherever you are watching or
listening to this episode, hit that subscribe button.
It's one click that's going to make a massive difference.
It's going to allow me to grow this this podcast and it's going
to allow me to bring you the best and the queerest episodes
every single time. So in advance, thank you.
Now to my conversation with Jordan.
Jordan, as always, we will start with our queer panic rapid fire
set of questions. You just respond with the first
thing that comes to mind, starting with what was the first
album you ever owned? It was history by Michael
Jackson. It was a double album, so you
can really get your teeth into that as a kid lost for ages.
It's a classic, I love that. What would be your lip sync for
your life? Song of choice.
There is an amazing heavy metal cover of Pink Pony Club that
I've listened to about 1000 times in the last two weeks.
It's really good by Jonathan Moloss Sings.
So it's Jonathan Sammon. Jonathan something.
There's no, there can't be many Jonathans on the Internet.
Look it up. Doing a pink pony club.
Heavy metal. I think I'll I'll try and find
it. Who was a childhood celebrity
crush of yours? Gem from Gem and the holograms
Do you know the cartoon Gem and the holograms I.
I actually don't. She is amazing and Gem, she's
like she, she had superpowers, but she was also in a band and
that is what I aspire to every day.
OK, I will look that up and share it with everyone as well
if anyone else is unfamiliar. What is your biggest red flag?
When people that are asking me out, they are either too excited
about me being transgender or don't want to hear about it at
all. You know, like it's, it's a
part, it's a normal part of life.
But when you're dating as a trans person and they're like,
oh, it's like, if it's like a too exciting because all they
want to know about is what's going on downstairs.
But well, my, my eyes and brain and arguably my personalities up
here. Let's do that bit 1st and then
we can talk about what is inevitably going on Down Under.
OK. That's super interesting.
OK, what is your favourite all time queer movie?
Oh my God, I do quite like that. Blue is the Warmest Colour.
It's just really tender and sweet and like, I mean, it's in
French, so you gotta, you gotta under, you gotta listen to it in
French, right? There's nothing arguably wrong
with that. It's nice, nice language.
I don't speak French, so I could do a bit of reading, but it's so
nice. Like they're coming out process
being allowing to be be be messy.
Like we don't see enough of that on screen, do we?
It's like sex and coming out. They like they're sanitised a
lot on screen, like for comic effect or whatever, but like
they're messy. There's a complicated processes.
Yeah, I completely agree. I will have to look it up
because I'm not I'm not familiar so I will do my education.
German hologram Louis the woman's colour.
That is a spectrum. It's not that.
There's no Venn diagram for that.
I've got some homework. It's good.
What about a queer TV show you recommend to everyone other than
obviously transaction? Oh, that's so kind.
I would say that this is this will be a bit of left field, but
what happens when like you get I found out recently that Rick
from Rick and Morty is transsexual.
And so Rick and Morty a cartoon about a doctor and and his
grandson travelling universe, but he sort of has sex with
everyone and has loving relationships with entire
planets worth of people. So while it's not necessarily
the most queer thing you've ever seen, I do recommend it as a
nice way of that stuff just being funnelled into mainstream
entertainment. Yeah, I love that.
That's awesome. Speaking of TV and of
Transaction, Yeah. Do you have a favourite line
from Transaction? Because I do.
So I'm just curious to hear if you have.
All right, we'll trade favourite lines.
OK, Do you know what? There's some really it's blowing
my own trumpet because I wrote it, but there are some lines
that I'm like, oh, did I write that?
That's really good. I do like when this Simon played
by Nick Frost, when his wife, his ex-wife says to him, have
you thought about installing AB day on your front porch?
Because the amount of shits you take on your own doorstep is
staggering. I think that's a nice bit of
language. What's?
Your favourite line? Mine is opinions are like
assholes. Worth exploring.
Good, that's way better. Just pippy Snappy.
Yeah, yours is better. Right line?
Well, everyone can now go and check it out if they haven't
already and figure out what their favourite line is.
What is your favourite queer slang?
Right, so you got to bear with me because I'm an old lady.
I learned the term that you probably, I'm going to tell you
what it is and you'll be like, that's not queer.
That's just a word I learned. The word snatched, Is that
queer? I think that's queer, yeah.
Is it like when you when you look a bit like hot and your
your chin's all pulled up just learn that like 2 days ago?
Is that queer? I feel like I'm embarrassing
myself in front of my community, but I mean come on guys, I'm
older than most of you. Definitely not.
I think that's a great one. What about a queer book you just
couldn't put down? Oh my God.
All Fours by Miranda July. Oh my God, it was beautiful.
Like I think it I nominated it for the Sky Arts best book of
the year. Like it's it's goes to some
unusual places again. Really cool to have sex
represented in like not the mainstream way.
She goes on a bit of an adventure in that book.
OK, another great recommendation for me.
I've got tonnes of homework coming out this episode, which
is amazing. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
Right, OK, I quite like well, I I like I think Deadpool.
I keep coming out these really like these really out out there
nerdy suggestions. Deadpool is undoubtedly
absolutely a pansexual being and I like his costume a lot.
So Deadpool. I love that amazing choice.
Right, that's not homework. Yeah, I don't have to do
homework on Deadpool. I'm good.
Who is one person you would like to hear on this podcast and what
one question would you want me to ask them?
Oh, that's really nice. The anything.
Let me have a good there's this quick fire.
Come on, Jordan, this is quick fire.
I would love on the podcast to see the comedian Ruben Kay,
comedian, cabaret performer, Australian icon just smashed
their performance in Jesus Christ Superstar and I'd love
them to be on your podcast. And I would love you to ask them
why are you not returning Jordan's phone calls?
Because she's been blowing you up.
All right, put me in the middle. OK, ask, ask them.
Ask them what they think it means to be a man, because I
think I see them as in this. Strange day and age that we live
in. I see them as this most
incredible representation of masculinity across the whole
spectrum. I just think they're amazing and
they'd be a wonderful guest and they would have some interesting
things to say on the subject. Yeah, they would be amazing.
OK, we will definitely reach out and try and get them on the
podcast. And finally, for our repertoire
set questions, what is one word you would use to describe your
childhood? Oh, post tense.
It's happened. What's the word?
What's one word for?
It's already done so we don't have to worry about it.
History. It's done history.
It's history, mate. Just like just like the album,
the double album by Michael Jackson.
What a full circle moment. Ben, I know I'm in all of you.
That was amazing. History, History.
I love that. That's amazing.
Well, you say history, so let's dig a little bit deeper.
What should I know about you as a young person to understand the
Jordan that sits in front of me today?
What I've noticed recently in my stand up show is that I talk
about the fact that I grew up in a pub and then I realised that
that must be the most obvious thing to everyone who's ever met
me. Every single thing about my
personality. It would imply that I used to
like lug be about was up at staircase.
Like that's just, that's just, I was like a little nerd that grew
up in a bar and then I joined a death metal band and then that
changed the trajectory of my life because I've never stopped
being a nerd. But I am.
I suddenly got loads of attention for being on stage and
I thought I'll probably keep doing that.
I reckon, I reckon I'll keep, keep talking into a microphone
or screaming into a microphone as you do with deaf mouth and,
and people will say, well done. And I quite like that feeling.
It's it's all pomp and frill and and superfluous superficiality.
I'm really just a bit of a nerd, but I happen to have landed a
job where I have to be on stage wearing ridiculous outfits.
That's all you need to know about me.
I'm not really a real person. I like these questions.
These are very introspective. OK, good.
Well, we'll, we'll keep them going because I think it's
interesting to understand the first awareness people have of
other LGBTQ plus people. So do you remember the first
queer person you became aware of, either in real life or I
guess also through media? Yeah, I do.
It would have been Graham Milton at the time.
I was little and my mum was. Well, I mean, I say that my
mum's a lesbian, so I, I suspect I probably knew about that, but
I don't think I knew it implicitly because I had a
father and they were married that that probably threw off my
radar a bit. But then she would take us to
Prides and I saw Graham Norton introducing who sang Bump in the
Night. He was introducing Bump in the
night. It's such a formative moment,
Bump, bump, bump in the night. I think it's All Stars,
something like that. And I was like, well, he's he's
gay and definitely. And he's, he's proper lovely and
nice. And then my mum came out as a
lesbian. I was like, oh, like Graham
Milton, except with a lady. And she's like, yeah, I was only
a child at this point. I do want to point out I wasn't
like a full-fledged person and I understood the English.
Language. This wasn't you at 25 or
something? Yeah.
And at that pride, I saw a drag queen eating a banana and my
tummy got really, I had a funny feeling in my tummy.
I was like, this is unusual, sexy.
I like it. What an experience.
That's amazing. In everything you do, even this
conversation now, you come across as just so incredibly
authentically you. You think you first felt
authentically yourself, and then when did you feel you could
bring that authenticity to everything you do?
That's a beautiful question that I'm only in real time realising
the answer to. That's so nice.
Like it was when you come out, you would not come out like
trans if you're transgender, transitioning because like
everything. Oh, it's made me really
emotional. I never even thought about that.
Like it's the mask that you hold onto for so long.
It's just such a well developed mask.
Every interaction you have, however genuine.
And since it, it's still got a few inches of like metaphysical
layer of who you're supposed to be in front of it.
You take that away that I mean, I became a comedian very quickly
after I was I came out. So that says a lot.
It's like I could actually share a real authentic energy on stage
was before that I was a pop singer.
I had a lot of energy, but it's all very corralled into this
weird square boy shaped experience.
That's such a lovely question. This is a great podcast.
You're very good at this. I appreciate it.
Yeah. I think it's fascinating to just
hear, you know, when people kind of feel that.
I think it's something that I constantly chases that feeling
of authenticity. I'm drawn to people who I feel
are being very authentic with me.
My biggest red flag would be someone who's just not being
authentic. So I'm super curious as to know
how people kind of embrace that. And you mentioned being a pop
star and obviously you pay to a lot.
Of people using the word pop star.
Thank you for using the word pop star.
I didn't need it for anything, but I'll take your description.
Well, I would argue anyone who makes it to the live shows of
The Voice, which you did, is an incredible achievement.
Looking back, how do you feel about that moment and that
experience now, and how do you think that version of you
compares to the Jordan we now see on stage and on screen?
Great question because I remember I had a live in
landlord at the time and he was like I saw you on The Voice last
night and he was like what are you doing that with your voice
for? And I was like, what do you
mean? It's like you're talking all
high and dainty, like a little like a little Pixie.
It was like, that's just my voice.
And it's because when you first transition, you are still, you
overshoot sometimes as a transgender woman and it's not
authentic. But you, you haven't got
anything to base it on. So I'm like, you try to find
something. So now as a very concrete
example, this is what my voice sounds like naturally.
Whereas on The Voice, I reckon I was probably talking.
I can't even do it. Or it's like doing some
impression of Minnie Mouse because you're still cut.
I mean, also it's like millions and millions of people watching.
It's scary. It is very interesting dropping
a lot of the charade that you've been carrying around for your
whole life. I'm very proud, for example, of
being from Essex. But I don't imagine my Essex
accent came out much on the on The Voice.
I was being very not RP but just TV reality contestant voice.
Yeah. And obviously, look, I Can't
Sing clearly, I'm not particularly funny, but you are.
For you, going from the voice to full blown comedy feels like a
wild shift and just like this incredible level of talent that
it must take to make that transition.
What was, you know, was that always bubbling under the
surface, or did you surprise yourself with that switch to
comedy? I surprised myself a bit, but
there is an old saying that like every pop star wants to be a
comedian and every comedian wants to be a pop star or rock
star. I've substituted the word pop
star. It's usually rock star because
when you are a singer and you do your thing and it's amazing, but
then someone comes on stage with just a microphone and gets the
whole crowd in like, oh, I wish I was that person.
A lot of comedians, they're like, God, I wish I could feel
as cool as somebody, like rocking the axe.
I'm so old, like shredding the axe.
So yes, I, I think it's bubbling away in the sense that was
always jealous of comedians. But then when you become a
comedian, it's because honestly, you just want to be one of those
people. It's like that you, the
attention that you get on stage, that condensed thing is great,
but you I just want to be one of those people.
And no moments in my life are happier now than when I'm
surrounded with a bunch of comedians because there's it is
a secret. We're not actually that funny
like off stage, which is so not they're funny people, but like
I'm the least funny person I know.
And yet I do this for a living. When you get together we just
sit and talk, really like low key about stuff.
Just have a little cup of tea. This is a comedian's favourite
beverage. Little cup of tea, sit and chat
about the world and it's so lovely and peaceful because
we've all got the same weird experience of standing on stage
with loads of people laughing at us.
What is it like a different level of pressure, like
obviously getting on stage, singing, having that kind of
immediate reaction versus kind of comedy as well where you
know, you are kind of flying on without without a string and you
just kind of have to perform and hope that people react the way
you hope they're going to react. Yeah, 'cause, right.
So you're a singer and let's say you're using playback, you've
got the song playing. Like if you aren't doing
anything, there's still something happening.
So there's still something for people to talk to.
When you're a comedian and you're just talking into a
microphone, if they don't laugh, the silence is is palpable.
It's like it's just silence. Whereas music, as a musical
comedian, if no one's laughing, I can still a great impression
there of a piano that didn't sound like.
So yeah, it is a different pressure being a comedian, but I
love comedy because it's immediate.
When you do a song, let's say you do Pink Pony Club, yeah,
you're a Chappelle Rone and it's like that's a great song.
If Chappelle Rone isn't playing, playing Pink Pony Club in 100
years time, a fan's going to be annoyed because it's an absolute
hit banger. You have to do it for the rest
of your life. Comedians, you don't have that.
In fact, if you're telling the same joke in 100 years, you're a
hack. You've got to mix it up a bit.
I like that. I like the pressure of staying
on my toes and always bringing out new stuff.
It's why it's why pop singers and rock stars to get
disillusioned a little bit, get bit jaded because they've got
these amazing songs, but they want to move on.
They want to change their careers.
You know, they want a Gaga, they want a David Bowie.
They want to reinvent themselves.
Yeah, 100%. That makes a tonne of sense
actually. And I think obviously let's talk
about your stand up because I want to talk about your Channel
4 special. Is it a bird?
If you haven't seen it, don't pause this, but wait till the
end and then go and immediately watch.
Watch it on Channel 4. It's available on demand.
It might be you. You have seen it.
Yeah, I have seen. It Oh, this is the advice of the
public. OK, I get it.
It might be the only stand up show I've seen that covers and
we'll count them off. Batman.
Yes. Jesus Christ, Mr Potato Head.
Yeah, and Adolf Hitler in one set.
I wonder why you don't see those four people in the same room at
the same time, Ben. I think it's so interesting,
this same person. That is one way to look at it.
And clearly you haven't let go of your musical roots entirely,
right? Because I love how you weave
music into your comedy. What is it about that
combination of music and comedy that works so well?
And can you just talk to me about how that special came
together? Like, absolutely can.
So usually a comedian's first special is the first, let's say,
5 to 10 years of their career of jokes they've been put together
and then you hit especially we hit a perfect boiling point.
So it's all your best material. So I'm very lucky that it's all
the good stuff is like crammed into that first one.
It came about in. So it was my 2022 Edinburgh
Fringe show and it started in this leaky little shipping
container with like 75 people. And then suddenly we got a
cheeky little five star in the Guardian.
And then it sold out for the whole run.
And then they had to put us in these bigger tents and they sold
out and sold out and sold out. And then it was nominated.
And it was just the most magical month of my life, honestly.
It was incredible. And then suddenly my career just
went like took a perpendicular, sort of shot up in the air.
And that's the only reason anybody knows who I am.
Because off the back of that, I was given a little slot on
Friday Night Live where I performed naked using a part of
my body that one does not traditionally use to play the
piano. And that's how that's what
launched me into people's minds post the voice.
So that special is that that show is the reason why I exist
in this rectangle that you we're looking at now.
I'm very proud shafted it very proud of it.
To answer the question of how music and comedy comes together.
It is a way to stretch people's brains.
What I really like, I do it in that special is like if you can
get people right on the edge of like a big silly laugh and then
proper pull things down with an emotional moment of tenderness.
So Oh, and then vice versa if you go in, but I do it my next
show, like you get everyone in thinking, God, this is the most
bleak, sad thing ever. God, well, this isn't comedy
anymore. And then just completely
undercut it with a ridiculous visual gag.
It does something to the. That is a very specific flavour
that I crave personally, and I think a lot of people do because
we just want something different nowadays, novelties, like it's
like the most valuable currency. Personally to me.
If someone can show me something new, then I'll that I'll be very
impressed with them. And they're my big new best
friend. If, you know, if you see
someone, they're like God, that everything they say is really
interest. I want to hang around that
person more. Yeah.
So that's what I think. Music and comedy together
stretches your brain. Yeah, I think it's amazing.
Like me and my husband watched it and we were just kind of
howling, 'cause it is kind of this roller coaster that you
take everyone on. And often, you know, comedy
shows are and there's no criticism, obviously I can do
it. But they they gag after gag
after gag kind of 1 liners. Whereas this is really a journey
you take everyone on, which I really appreciated.
And the other show that made me and my husband Hal was
Transaction on ITV. We briefly mentioned at the
beginning, but I'm obsessed so I really want to get into it.
That idea of a supermarket night shift, how did that come about?
And then what was your experience of writing and
starring on a show on ITV? But it started off as a little
taste, the teaser of me and another comedian playing
ourselves, talking in the Museum of Comedy in London.
And then we took it to a TV channel, and they're like, well,
we don't really want to see a show about two comedians because
it's not that common of a job. Most people don't do that.
Can you set it somewhere a little bit more relatable?
I was like, all right, well, I looked at, I thought a bunch of
different ideas. And I never worked in retail
myself, but all my friends did work night shift and I would
visit them and I would, like, help mop up the store and we'd
have like doughnut fights and stuff in the night time.
I was like, that's really fun. That's OK.
It's the time you don't see because you'd think that'd be
the most boring time ever, but it's the time when people loose
the most. God, that's another phrase from
the 1950s stuff. I just pulled out my pocket,
people cut loose and it gets psychedelic.
I don't know if you've ever worked an overnight shift, maybe
not in like nightlife's a bit different because there's loads
of people around. But if you've got a few people
together in a boring situation, you get really silly really fast
and it gets a bit psychedelic. So I knew I wanted the show to
be about that. And then it, we made a short
form series for Comedy Central a long time ago, little 5 minute
episodes. And then it got Nick Frost saw
it and he's like, I really like this.
And if it ever gets made for TV, I'd love to be the boss.
And then his company. They're they're the reason that
he exists. Nick is the reason the show was
made and exists. And he brought it over and we
got the Commission with ITV and then we made it in.
No, it feels this is mad. It was only November of last
year that we've shot. It only came out this year,
didn't it? And fingers crossed the second
season is on its way. It looks good, but you never
know. So you know, I've got crossing
everything I've got across the, the for the audio listeners
right now. I know this is video.
I crossed all my fingers and I thought how funny it'd be if
another set of fingers just came out and crossed the bottom be a
real like surreal moment. So I, yeah, I've never worked it
myself. But now having lived in that
supermarket for like 6 weeks shooting, I do honestly feel
like I put in a shift at a supermarket because it's so
realistic when you watch that show that's not a real, that's a
set. But I mean like loads of TV
shows. But it's so you walk in and I'm
like oh this is just a functioning supermarket.
A Wilco nearby shut down. So they got loads of stuff from
the Wilco and rebranded it as Pellets supermarket.
I kind of thought it might be like an abandoned shop or
something. I've got to agree with you.
Like they felt incredibly realistic.
Well, how does what's the experience of writing ATV show
versus writing a comedy special or a stand up special?
How does that kind of vary? It's the the writing of a
special is it's your voice with no interruption.
And that's a very appealing thing about comedy.
It's why a lot of people go into it.
It's the same reason a lot of people go into writing novels
because it's like your thoughts in large and the interruption is
usually right at the end. Someone will say, can you take
out this word? Can you do this ATV show?
From the very start you've got somebody saying maybe there
should be a dog in it or maybe you should take that dog out of
it. So don't like that dog, whatever
it is like. So it's much more of a
collaboration with your channel usually.
You don't normally get channels that completely leave you alone.
ITV would have been wonderful, but it does.
It does involve pages and pages of notes about what the audience
might prefer to see and you own. Then your job as a writer is to
push back. You've got a karate chop those
ideas away and say no, come on, please trust me, you've hired me
because you think I'm funny, Please, please let me be funny.
And then I personally think the best shows are the ones where
the writer did that more often than not.
And they said, look, please just trust me.
Even if it comes out and it's just a bit, it's not that funny,
but it's really specific and weird.
Those are great shows and those shows tend to find their
audience over time. My favourite shows of all Timer,
30 Rock and Community, great shows, Tina Fey and Dan Harmon,
writers of those shows. I mean, they had amazing writers
rooms, but these are these weren't shows that were massive
smash hits. They just became cult hits over
time. And that's how I pitched this
one. I said I want it to be 30 Rock
in a supermarket. Well, if you don't want to
listen, go and watch after that pitch, then I I don't know
what's wrong with you, so you should definitely go and check
it out. You obviously made your
illustrious return to the end of a Fringe this year.
What can you tell me about that show and the experience of 2025?
I was really nervous because it's very difficult to come back
after a show that's been so publicly sort of put on a
pedestal, which is lovely. What a lovely thing to
experience and then to come back and have to do it again.
It's never going to be as good. So the opening song from the
show is a is a song about how this show can't possibly be as
good as the last one. And it's a lot of fun.
I enjoyed it a lot. If it went off without a hitch,
it was so nice. It was a it's a show about the
difficulties and the fallout of appearing naked on television
and then a lot of people getting quite mad at that and, and, and
complaining about it to Ofcom, who very politely turned all
those complaints over and said stop being silly.
But a lot of people, it wasn't enough to insult being online.
They had to, they had to let me know that I received some very
unfortunate messages alluding to the fact that they rather that
wasn't on the planet anymore and that they would be happy to take
care of that situation. It's really sad, but I turned
that into a show that's got because some of the threats were
like gun related and I have a bit of a cowgirl thing in the
back of my brain. I always wanted to be a bit of a
cowgirl, so I turned it into a cowboy Western aesthetic show.
So the show's called. Is that a cock in your pocket or
are you just here to kill me so I could swear in on your lovely
show? We could say that, can't we?
I have now. We're good, we're good.
And it's really fun to come out on like every night, come out
dressed like a cowgirl. It's got a few little special
effects and stuff in it, which didn't always work every night,
which is adds to the comedy. And it's, it's really odd to
sort of talk about your own life because that's a specific thing.
If you didn't know who I was, which is the majority of people
on the planet that come into a show where you're I'm catching
you up with my weird life that's been happening over the last
four years. And it's, I mean, God bless
them. The audiences just go along with
it. They're like, well, I don't know
this person, but like, they seem to have had a harrowing
experience. Let's jump on board.
Really, really a joy. It was a a lovely month and I'll
now be taking that show on tour intercontinentally, as it were.
It's a little bit of a little bit of a scoop.
Oh yeah, we're going space side with that show.
Eventually, soon, soon, eventually.
Soon, eventually. That's very, very cool.
You mentioned something there that I just want to pull on a
little bit, which is kind of social media and how do you
handle that side of things, right?
We're in such a politically divided well right now, and
social media kind of gives anyone and everyone the
opportunity to say anything that comes from their brain to
another person. How do you deal with kind of the
division of, you know, me as Jordan versus the Jordan that's
on social media and the and the reaction that's going to have
it's. A very interesting and excellent
question 'cause I don't think that social media, as most
people know, in their mind, is a representation of actual
humanity. It's us at our best and worst
and not really much in the middle, whereas most of us live
in the middle. Absolutely just an in the middle
person. So I don't first of all, no,
zero. I have a zero response policy
myself. I have never in my life.
That's a quick queer word I've used.
I should have used a queer word, a queer term that I've used.
Snap, snapback. Yeah, I've learned that.
I've learned a little snapback. I've never snapped back in my
life. I don't have the capacity to
snap back. I don't think I do anyway.
But what that means is that either people get bored and
leave it alone or they they get so angry that they sort of eat
their own tail, whereas I'm just stood over in the corner like a
little cartoon character just giving people away.
I don't have the capacity to argue.
And I think that's the luckiest thing that's ever been bestowed
to me by my by my parents. Like they, we just don't just
don't have it. I'm too, I'm too squishy.
Like, here's the thing, what I'd say with social media is that
the inclination is to harden yourself to all this horrible
stuff and put up a big wall and put a load of people on the
other side of that wall and dehumanise them and say, well,
the, the bad people, they stay on the other side.
And I've got my wall. I don't want to have a wall.
I want to remain soft and squishy my whole life.
I want to, I want to be affected by stuff and I want, I want
music to still mean something and I want like sad movies to
still sort of hurt and get in there.
You can't do that with a wall. So I stay squishy and vulnerable
all the time, like a little open wound and never respond.
That's been my way of dealing with it.
So I get to stay who I am and it all, it hurts.
It hurts all the time. It hurts when people
accidentally misgender you, but they're not doing it on purpose.
It's all right for sometimes you get your heart broken for and
it's no one's fault. That's something we have to
remember. It's actually it's not.
It's not always everyone's fault.
It very often is someone's fault.
Definitely. Let's not pretend that
everyone's like everyone in the world is a suffering saintly
type character. But yeah, social media has done
a number on our species, good and bad.
Is is pushed a lot of things forward and pushed a lot of
things back. I want us all to remain who we
are and not, don't get. Don't wander too deep into that
marsh because it's an unusual place to be.
Yeah, I think that's super. That's really important.
And I also think what's interesting is you mentioned
something about how comedy can be used.
It kind of had this magical ability to disarm people.
You can make them laugh, and then you can make them think.
What role do you think comedy plays in helping people
understand things they might otherwise fear or reject or
immediately hate? Especially with the kind of
current political climate we're living in, I.
Have two answers to that One, you're so good at doing
podcasts. This is so good.
You're so good at these questions because this is pro
proper stuff, right? 2 is that comedy is undeniable.
You have a physiological and physical response to things that
make you laugh. It's called spasmodic
exploration. That is the scientific word for
laughter. If a person can make your
stomach vibrate in and out with something they've said, it
bypasses all your prejudice. You just, it just can't.
You can't deny it. And it's the reason we often
laugh at things we don't think we should.
You know that thing where you catch yourself laughing?
It doesn't mean that that you wholeheartedly believe or agree
with the thing that you've just heard, but it means there's a
kernel of humanity under there somewhere.
There's something that's that needs to be dealt with or some
communication you've just experienced.
Because it got through your brain, literally went through
your ears and eyes and it got processed and it went down to
the gut. And the gut was like, yeah.
And it went in and out. I think that the kind of comedy
that trips you up in a fun way is a lot of fun.
What? I've sat through comedy specials
and I've heard I think there's some non transgender comedians
making some awful transgender jokes.
I also think there's a little handful that are making some
really good ones that absolutely have the licence to do so
because we're a part of the species.
It'll be sad to be completely left out of all comedy.
It's fun. We're not.
It's not like you need a transgender person off stage
going tick. Yeah, no, that's OK.
It's about humanity and a shared love and understanding of each
other. It's fun to poke fun.
It's not fun to kick people hard when they're already down.
It's fun to poke fun at someone and while lifting them up at the
same time. So I think the kind of comedy
where what I'll often see is I'll look out into an audience
and I'll see someone nudge someone and say that's me or
that's you. You do that and it's fun.
I've sat a few specials where I have been Stony faced like,
well, this is just awful and it's about me, isn't it?
And you still have to divorce yourself a little bit.
If you can, If you can go go in open, you know, to to enjoying
comedy, you'll have a great time.
But you can't be expected to do that like with the World is
hard. And we're going to go in with a
few prejudices. So it's kind of picture the job
of people like me, I suppose, to pop those bubbles for you.
Like I will not. I'll make jokes about
transgenderism. Get a fantastic comedian from
the Middle East. They'll pop that bubble for you
a couple of times. You go in with a few prejudices
and it's our job to smooth that over for you.
Well, I say our job. That's the job.
That's the role that I'd like to have taken for myself.
A lot of comedians just want to watch the world burn.
And that is the balance, right? Because I'm curious to get your
thoughts on something you've talked about a little bit there,
which is, you know, obviously there's been a lot of backlash
around comedians who have made jokes or comments about the
trans community. Some have defended it, saying
it's kind of about the intent of the joke, not the joke itself.
I've always struggled with, I've been at comedy shows where
people have made jokes about gay people.
And I sometimes I guess it depends on the joke.
Sometimes it just has a real kind of immediate defence goes
up and sometimes I can laugh it off.
Do you think that kind of humour is ever acceptable or and can
those jokes do real damage to the trans community?
Oh, well, I mean, it's a case by case basis.
This is the thing about the society we've been now and this,
that's such a sweeping statement.
When anyone says that to you, don't believe them because the
next thing they say is not the entire answer.
But I'm going to say anyway, the thing about society right now is
that we're so exhausted. We are so exhausted.
There's so much cognitive dissonance in our brains from
all the wacky things that are happening, all the horrible
things are happening, and all the good that seems to be being
done on the other side. It doesn't gel and we're too
exhausted to think things through completely.
We have a massive part of our brain, incredible function in
our brain that allows us to package off pieces of
information and keep them there so we don't have to think about
them ever again. And that's how racism happens.
That's how sexism happens. At some point they go, right,
I'm too exhausted. I'm just going to bunch this
group of people here and move it because I had not me.
This is the proverbial person. They're like, I've had an
experience with a woman once. I didn't like it, right?
It's so much easier for me now to just put them all in the same
box and put them over here. So we can't treat every comedian
making jokes about everyone as having the same agenda.
It is purely a case by case basis.
To answer your question, yeah, of course there are jokes that
are damaging, not jokes that I'd say jokes that fan the flame of
a damage that's already being done.
I can't. I wouldn't say I'd ever heard a
joke or I thought that person's just started World War 3 is
there? They're only jumping on a
bandwagon that's already happening.
A comedian's job is to get laughs.
And I think a lot of them along the way lose sight of the fact
of who their audience is. If they're getting laughs from a
bunch of people, keep yeah, keep doing it.
Why not? They just don't the the audience
of people that are endangered by that job, probably by that joke,
probably not going to be at your show.
So they wouldn't know any different comedians.
We're not all we're not geniuses, are we?
We're just we're an idiot. Most of us just making jokes.
I would say there's there's a few comics doing is there were
there's a he's he is a self professed slimeball, but I think
he's quite a sweet man as a mayor from an American comedian
called Jim Norton. Blessed.
He's got transgender wife now and he's the last person you'd
have thought that would be making like really good like
subtle transgender jokes because of the company that he keeps.
He's a fuck. He's sorry for swearing.
I'm so sorry. He's a funny, funny guy and he's
always been he's always had a thing for the transgender
ladies, but he does it in such a he's it's like it's a creep.
They so sweet as well at the same time and you.
So there's people like that that they've got good in their hearts
for the situation. They're willing to be wrong and
they try stuff on the other side.
There's obviously some lots of amazing transgender comedians
that you would probably go to for that material first.
Sam Nicoresti just won the comedy best show at the
Edinburgh Fringe. Amazing comedian.
I've always got a kick out of everything Jen Ives does, as
well as a really cool transgender comedians coming up
at the moment, and I dare say I'm one of those and I'm doing
my best to fly that flag. Yeah, we appreciate it.
I think it's such an important work and it just makes such a
massive difference. I think comedy really does have
that power to reach people who maybe otherwise would have been
closed off. You mentioned obviously
Edinburgh Fringe, again, I'm not experienced that.
I had a friend who was there this year.
I'm really keen to at some point attend Edinburgh Fridge.
What's that experience like as an act there?
Do you get down time to go and explore and enjoy the shows?
And if so, was there any that stood out for you?
Just kind of what's the experience of being at the
Fringe? The experience is is what you
make of it. You can, you can sequester
yourself away, you can close to yourself into a little room and
you can just do your own show and go home.
You can eat whatever you want every night.
That's the Edinburgh Fringe experience.
There's food everywhere if you have the time going and seeing a
bunch of other shows I think is the most valuable part of the
Fringe. I was lucky enough to see a
whole bunch. I saw Desiree Birch, who I, I
love, as always, always kills it.
I saw a show about they recreated the whole plot of
Jurassic Park with three people on stage and like some props.
Funniest thing I saw the whole time.
I saw Mark, Mark Silcox as a bit of a Fringe darling, and you
have to go and see him to experience it.
That's not something I can explain.
Yeah. Seeing a bunch, a bit of
everything's a bit of dance. This.
This is what comedians are saying.
Go see some comedy, but go see some dance and some theatre and
some opera and some music. And go see someone, like,
knitting a phone box while, like, hanging upside down off
of, like, you know, off the Royal Mile.
Or whether it's very cool to take in so much art because it
stretches your brain in ways that you might think of a new
idea for your own set material for the non, for the civilian,
for the non professional, for the non comedian that wants to
go up there. See, give yourself a handful of
things that everyone says is great, and then pick a handful
of things that you've not heard of at all and have that
experience, because those are two very different experiences
of the fringe. You you might see some duds at
both ends of the spectrum, but you'll see a lot of magic as
well. I love that.
It sounds amazing and we have some Edinburgh Fringe folks
coming on the podcast soon. So that's that's very exciting.
Let's revisit young Jordan because that's how we started
this podcast. If you could give your younger
self one piece of advice, what would it be?
And would it be different if I said, what advice would you give
to a young queer person today? Oh yeah, I reckon it would.
I'd probably update the language a little bit for right.
So am I right? So I've like walked through like
a let's set the scene, right? I've walked through like a
portal and like the kid is there.
You're back in the pub. Back, I'm back in the pub,
right? Little goth, little goth Jordan
is all they're rocking out, right?
First of all, I'd be like, I'm you, don't worry about the
boobs. Let me explain have a night
right? There's a lot to unpack.
I appreciate that Also this accent you will it will develop
over time like you, you are basically like an Essex person
now I'd say don't ever put your your life's happiness and your
life's sense of wholeness behind somebody else's mild discomfort.
It's a right for somebody to be mildly uncomfortable with the
situation That's fine Never want to hurt anybody everyone like
tread on anyone's toes or step on anyone's shoulders or or
upset anyone. But you've got to draw a line
somewhere. If your entire life's happiness
and your ability to be a whole person is hidden behind one of
your parents mild discomfort, get over it.
Get over it sooner rather than later.
Life gets shorter the further it I mean, that's math.
Life gets shorter the more of your life goes by.
So those when you're a kid, it feels like it's going to go on
forever when you're not child anymore.
These this is precious. Got to live your life the best
way that you know how. Be a good person.
Hopefully I lived by that. Anyway, that's not advice I'd
need to give to my young self. To a kid today, I'd say the the
exact same advice does ring true.
I'd also say spend a bit this. This doesn't work unless another
kid says it. To a kid, if an adult says it,
they're like, go away you old person.
Get off the Internet for a bit, just for a bit, because the
internet's great. It actually is great.
It's it allows, it's the tools. It's filled with amazing tools.
That's why we're talking right now.
Touch of flower. Put your foot in some grass,
mate, Like do a bit of Wellness, do a bit of rudimentary outside
time because you won't be as stressed.
I think kids nowadays, they get traumatised five times before
they've even gone to school if they're on their phone and they
see the news even like the normal news, like it's scary out
there. So talk to talk to other people,
be outside and be nice to each other.
That one's a given. Also that that was way too long
for a question. That was what one piece of
advice that you would give. It's great advice though and
very, very well warranted. OK, so what's next for Jordan
Grey? You've mentioned obviously a
potential Season 2, a transaction.
Are we going to get another Channel 4 special?
You mentioned a tour, kind of what's next?
Well, I have my heart set on I mean, a season 2 is the golden
ticket. That's what everybody wants of
their comedy show and all the storylines are up there.
And I think I'd like to explore Tom and Millie a little bit
more, got some fun guest stars in mind.
So that's that's one thing. Yes, this new show, is that a
cock in your pocket? Are you just here to kill me?
I'm doing a little tour of that and that's going all around the
country. I've got my heart set on a
musical. I want to write musical.
I don't think the next live show that I bring to Edinburgh will
be a comedy special. It's going to be a one or two
person musical. I just sort of admire those
people like, like Tim mentioned that, you know, turned a comedy
career into a career writing for like, Pixar and writing for the
West End and Broadway. And I'm just going to be popping
up on the TV loads. Sorry.
And I'm sorry, guys. But if you're not a fan, well,
you switch Poppy telly because I'm on it a lot.
And that's my lot of life now is I'm one of those comedians that
pops up on on panel shows and various reality TV projects.
Yeah, you know, I'm here. I'm sticking around doing my
thing. I'll always be inside this
rectangle, be it portrait or landscape.
But I think that's amazing. I'm super excited.
I'm definitely going to check out the tour.
We will post the the ticket sales when they go on sale for
everyone. And obviously, do yourself a
favour, if you haven't watched Is It a Bird on Channel 4 or
Transaction on ITV X, please do check them out.
You won't be disappointed. There are incredible pieces of
content and just really, really powerful.
But Jordan, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Thank you so much for bringing a little bit of joy and a little
bit of happiness and a little bit of fun to everyone's lives.
And just thank you for being on Quit Talking With Me today.
Ben, I think I love you a little bit.
You're so nice. You're so good at this job.
For one that's always endearing as a person that's very good at
their job, but you're so kind. Thank you for those questions.
Has made me think, made me think as well.
Keep listening to this podcast, everyone that why did I amplify
my voice? It's on like it's on the
Internet, I guess if this makes any difference.
Keep listening to this podcast, everyone.
Keep listening, keep tuning in. Ben, thank you so much for
having me. It's been nice.
Talker.