1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:09,000 I truly believe that our shared experiences are the key to 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,200 another person's self empowerment. 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,160 We talk about transition being like, about changing ourselves. 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,000 For me, it's actually about becoming my true self. 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,400 For a long time spoke about my authenticity in the context of 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,320 my transness. But it's just a small part of 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,000 who I am. It's not all of me. 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,240 The same movement that is attempting to roll back LGBTQ 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,000 plus rights is the very same movement that is seeking to 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,200 erode women's rights. Like we cannot afford to come to 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,400 the pressure or retreat. I remember just thinking to 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,000 myself when I was young, things were really intense and really 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,560 hard and really difficult. And there were times where I 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,440 just, I thought I wasn't going to make it. 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,400 And actually, not to get entirely personal, but there 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,360 were times I almost didn't. Hello and welcome back to the 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,880 Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories. 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,000 This is queer talker and I'm Ben Cechetti. 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,920 Before we get to my conversation with the incredible Jude 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,440 Watamaki, I have a very quick favour to ask. 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Wherever you are watching or listening to this episode, hit 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,880 that subscribe button. It's one click and it's going to 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,960 make a massive difference. It's going to allow me to grow 24 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:21,120 this podcast, grow the community and continue bringing you the 25 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,360 best and the Queerest episodes every single time. 26 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,680 So in advance, thank you. Now to my conversation with 27 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,560 Jude. Jude, we are going to start with 28 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,920 a little game I like to call Queer Panic. 29 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:37,040 You just respond with the first thing that comes to your mind, 30 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,120 starting with what was the first album you ever owned? 31 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,800 So I'm going to say this with my full chest, OK, But the first 32 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,280 album I ever owned was the Spice Girls when I was 10 years old. 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,200 Barts At the same time my dad also got me an Oasis album as 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,360 well, so I don't know which one came first, but I was definitely 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,560 definitely a non binary child even back then. 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,560 Spice Girls are cool. I'm just going to put it out 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,280 there. Spice Girls was one of my first 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,120 albums, so I'm obsessed. That's a that's a great answer. 39 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaking of music, if you had to lip sync for your life, what 40 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,320 song would you choose? I. 41 00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:19,600 Think I just, you will never see me lip syncing for your life. 42 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,640 That's just something I wouldn't do even if I was on stage in 43 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:26,480 front of roof. I'd be like, listen babe, I'm 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,920 not. I'm not a lip syncher and I'm so 45 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,320 atrociously terrible when it comes to music. 46 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,760 I really, really am. It's embarrassing and I love 47 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,240 music, don't get me wrong, but I just will get stuck on the same 48 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,400 song over and over again. And so recently I like stumbled 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,000 across Youngblood because I was at like the ass you award. 50 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,240 Are you there? And I checked out his music and 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,920 I loved it. So yeah, love a bit of 52 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:51,840 Youngblood. It's not perfect. 53 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,680 It's this lip sync for your life kind of song, but. 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,200 I can think you can bring the vibe. 55 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,360 His new album's amazing. I love this new album. 56 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,120 It's great. Yeah, Yeah, it's great. 57 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:06,000 So I mean, yeah, let's just say. I've got a playlist I add them 58 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,080 to, so I'm just going to pick my favourite Youngbloods and I'll 59 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,640 add it on there. And that'll be your lip sync 60 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:15,360 song if this ever happens. What is your favourite queer 61 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,640 movie or TV show? Right. 62 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:23,400 So I absolutely loved Pose. I was such a fan of the show. 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,160 I I just, I think I watched the first episode and I just binge 64 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,760 watched it I think in one go. But I know there's been some 65 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,320 controversy with Ryan Murphy, but for me, it was really all 66 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,280 about the actors and the fact that they were really 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,040 authentically representing and telling the story of like 68 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,520 ballroom culture. And I know that I was even 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,680 looking into the stories of the actors and some of them were 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,800 actually from that era as well. And I just found it so 71 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,920 fascinating to learn about their stories as trans people living 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,760 in New York. It really tell told the story of 73 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,640 the AIDS crisis as well. And it really gave you a sense 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,480 of that time in history. And I just, I was hooked. 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,120 I really, really, really loved Pose. 76 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,400 So I'm a Pose fan. For sure, I love it. 77 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Such a good show and I think I love shows like that because so 78 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,840 much of our history can get forgotten. 79 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,800 And you know, we see RuPaul's Drag Race is a great example of 80 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,360 this round. We just kind of had this picture 81 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,760 of where drag came from. But to kind of get that 82 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,640 background to get that history lesson on on New York, the 83 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,520 ballroom culture and everything that it came from it. 84 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,640 Same with things like It's a sin and kept talking about the kind 85 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,680 of the AIDS crisis. It's just such an incredibly 86 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,880 important thing that we don't forget, and then we kind of have 87 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,320 that respect for the people that came before us and paved the way 88 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,520 for us to be able to sit here and have this podcast today. 89 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,920 So I love that show. And I love the fact that there 90 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,440 are shows out there that are so informative and educational. 91 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,560 You know, it's, I mean, I, I'm hugely dyslexic. 92 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,120 I'm not a big reader, but I love documentaries. 93 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,080 I love learning. And especially when it comes to 94 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,600 the history of our community, you know, so many of us grew up 95 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,400 with Section 28 and we just had no access to any information 96 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,720 about our own community. So to be able to learn in that 97 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,920 way, just for me, yeah, it was a phenomenal show. 98 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,480 And I I'm a big Indian or fan. There we go. 99 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,960 Yeah, I love that dream. Podcast guest, in case they're 100 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,840 listening. Who is your ultimate queer icon? 101 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,280 Do you know what I really really struggle to think of? 102 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:22,480 Who my, who my icons actually are. 103 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,240 I feel like there are so many amazing advocates and 104 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,520 celebrities that, and people that I admire and today and like 105 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,040 throughout history and who've made such a difference within 106 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,680 the community. But there's also people that 107 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,960 don't have visibility right, who won't go down in the history 108 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,840 books, who've made such a difference difference to 109 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,840 people's lives. And I can't help wanting to 110 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:48,600 celebrate those who don't get to be celebrated. 111 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,440 I, I mean, I do with my people, don't get me wrong, but I just, 112 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,360 I, it's, I've got to this point in my life where I really 113 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,200 strongly believe in like not deifying people. 114 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:05,760 Like I feel like, I feel like it's how systems, like systems 115 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,840 work better without the, with the distribution of power, not 116 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,800 domination, right? And I feel like when we like, 117 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,560 surrender our power, our faith, like 1 singular person, we 118 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,400 almost end up trading our agency and, and have an illusion of 119 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,000 security. Like so many people have fallen 120 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,240 off my pedestal throughout the years. 121 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,520 I've had so many people that I've looked up to and you know, 122 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,960 I used to work in TV as well, so I got to meet a lot of people 123 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,880 that I looked up to. And time and time again, I'd be 124 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,240 like, oh wow, you know, and, and, and actually, I feel like 125 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,720 concentrating all our trust on like a hero, we end up like 126 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,600 dismantling the very cheques and balances that that protect 127 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,720 community. And so I guess I'm learning 128 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,120 nowadays, and I know this is a very, very deep answer to this 129 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,760 question. I'm understanding that the 130 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,520 definition of leadership isn't necessarily standing in front. 131 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,440 It's it's standing side by side. It's standing behind and helping 132 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,120 people in empower themselves. So empowering others and and 133 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,440 fostering an environment that prioritises like collective 134 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,320 growth rather than one singular person. 135 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,560 So for me, leadership is all about empowering others and not 136 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,320 necessarily being seen. So my icons, I would say, would 137 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,400 have to be the people that remain unseen and the people 138 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,480 that do phenomenal work for the queer community and don't get 139 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,960 praise for it, but who deserve celebration. 140 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,040 Yeah, I think it's incredible answer. 141 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Yeah, it is. There's people behind the scenes 142 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,240 that kind of make everything happen and there it's just just 143 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,160 as important if not more important than the people that 144 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,320 kind of appear. You know, I was thinking about 145 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,720 this, we were an event recently which you hosted and we were 146 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,240 talking about TV. We talked about representation 147 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:42,960 on screen. But actually I was thinking 148 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,800 about how important the representation behind the camera 149 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,080 is because those are the people that are going to be helping to 150 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,880 make decisions around editing, around production to ensure that 151 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,840 there is going a good representation. 152 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,640 So I completely agree with you, kind of celebrating those that 153 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,240 we see and those that we don't. Absolutely. 154 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,200 All have their place, should we say? 155 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,960 As well, 100% OK, but we are going to go back to a single 156 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,320 person. So who is one person you would 157 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:14,640 like to hear on this podcast? I would love to hear more from 158 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,240 Bimini. And I say that because I was on 159 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,480 Bimini's podcast and, and I've seen them interview just an 160 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,000 enormous amount of people and, and I, you know, I love their 161 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,040 work. I think they've done incredible, 162 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,840 an incredible job at uplifting lots of people's voices. 163 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,520 And they have done single episodes and they do talk about 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,000 themselves. But I would love to hear more. 165 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,679 I'd love to see them interviewed and more. 166 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,360 So I'm going to say Bimini. Yeah, that's a great choice. 167 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,360 I think they have an incredible, they're just one of the smartest 168 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,160 people that I've heard speak about so many such a wide 169 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,520 variety of issues as well that I think they make an incredible 170 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,000 guest. So yes, I will. 171 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,720 I will slide into their DMS and and we'll see if we can make it 172 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,520 happen. Final of our quit panic 173 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,680 questions. What is one word you would use 174 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:12,160 to describe your childhood? Tough, difficult, tough or 175 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,280 difficult? One of the two, it certainly 176 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,480 wasn't easy. And you know, that being said, I 177 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,760 don't feel like I'd be the person I am today without having 178 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,160 gone through those challenges. So it was tough. 179 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,640 I was born in Italy. English wasn't my first 180 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,640 language. My parents went through the 181 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,000 messiest separation known to the history of the human race like 182 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,480 this. Their separation and divorce was 183 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,680 something that lasted throughout my entire childhood. 184 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,800 And I really, really got caught in the crossfire of that and 185 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,040 subsequently don't have a relationship with a lot of a lot 186 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,560 of my family. But I just didn't have a lot of 187 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,840 love growing up, which is, I know, sad. 188 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,440 I mean, it's, it's a sad thing to acknowledge. 189 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,240 And I do acknowledge that. And I developed coping 190 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,960 mechanisms. I struggled with addiction 191 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,520 growing up. I did a lot of things to try and 192 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,040 find the love that I was missing in my life. 193 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,400 And I just became really unwell. And underneath all of that, I 194 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,840 was carrying this trans experience that I didn't even 195 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,360 know was aware of until much later in my life. 196 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,840 And I, I became a chameleon. I just, throughout my, my young 197 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,640 life, I was, I did everything I could to just try and fit in. 198 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,320 And I was bullied relentlessly. And I just, I really lost who I 199 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,960 was or my sense of self trying to, to get people to like me. 200 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,360 And I mean, I ended up in a rehab at the age of 20. 201 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,000 And that, that's how bad it got, right. 202 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,800 And then, and I had to really kind of work through my young 203 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,000 adult life to, to, to just become a stable human being. 204 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,680 And so it's by no means being smooth sailing. 205 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,840 And I feel like I've been untangling a lot of my childhood 206 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,160 throughout my adult life. And it's not necessarily 207 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,800 something people know about me. And it's something that I 208 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,160 actually brought into my career as a public speaker later, later 209 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,080 in life. And I very much wanted to be the 210 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,160 role model that I needed growing up. 211 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,760 And so that's, yeah, it was a struggle. 212 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,640 I've given you one word and a whole narrative. 213 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,840 No, it is super interesting because I do think it's, it's so 214 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,960 important to understand who we were when we were younger to 215 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,880 understand who we are today. So kind of getting that insight 216 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,520 into who people are and and kind of what shaped them. 217 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,520 I also think you said something there, which is I find super 218 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,560 interesting, which is around kind of role models and you 219 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,120 know, I'm a big believer and be the person you needed when you 220 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,800 were younger. So do you remember as a young 221 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,920 person who the first kind of LGBTQ plus person you became 222 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,800 aware of was? And I guess even more 223 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,920 specifically than that, if possible, like who was the first 224 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,520 trans person you became aware of and how that felt seeing that in 225 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,560 front of you? This is the thing, right? 226 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,720 And, and because my, my experience as a young person 227 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,120 was, I mean, I was so far detached from that part of my 228 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,680 experience, despite the fact that when I realised that I was 229 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:02,640 trans at the late age of 30, when I look back, I can, I can 230 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,160 see that it was always with me, right? 231 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,440 Especially in those early years that I just, you know, having 232 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,120 grown up in a way that really kind of detached me from that, 233 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,760 from that sense of who I was. And of course, you know, fed 234 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,960 into all the mental health struggles that I was dealing 235 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,360 with at the time. Like it, it course would have 236 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,640 made it a lot, lot worse. Unknowingly, you know, I was 237 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,840 this very anxious, very under confident, fearful child who was 238 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,840 desperate to be liked and just, I don't think I would have, I 239 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,680 would have been able to acknowledge that I was trans, 240 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,360 even though I did see Nadia and Big Brother like every other 241 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,920 millennial, you know, she was somebody that I, I remember 242 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:47,360 growing up and, and I just to be honest, and this goes to show, 243 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,880 you know, I was, I think I was 18 when she was in the Big 244 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,040 Brother house. I was 17. 245 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,480 She was just like the rest of the housemates. 246 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,560 You know, I remember just having this feeling she was this 247 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:00,160 household name. She was loved. 248 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040 She was just, you know, she had this part of her experience. 249 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,640 And I remember that versus, you know, the world we're living in 250 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,480 today where there's all this kind of, you know, controversy 251 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,680 and like, like every that the the idea of being trans is just 252 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,520 met with so much resistance and and you know, and there's just 253 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,200 it's so it's very different to it was a very different time 254 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,000 back then. There was less representation, 255 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,240 but the representation that was there wasn't met with so much 256 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,480 hostility. And then so I do remember that, 257 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,000 but it didn't necessarily kind of the ball didn't drop at that 258 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,880 time for me, shall we say, like it. 259 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:45,200 It took it took meeting trans people later in life for me to 260 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,160 really acknowledge that part of myself. 261 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Yeah, I think Nadia is such a fascinating person in kind of 262 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,160 the history of LGBTQ plus people. 263 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,720 I'd love to have her on the podcast because I think she she 264 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:57,800 does. I don't think she necessarily 265 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,560 gets her flowers because to your point, Big Brother's a 266 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,520 popularity contest and you have to and, and especially in those 267 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,480 early seasons in the UK, it was huge. 268 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,200 And so to win Big Brother, which Nadia did, you had to be the 269 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,280 most popular housemate. And then to to think about where 270 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,800 we've come to now, where there is such hostility towards the 271 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,600 LGBTQ bus community, but very specifically trans, non binary 272 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,520 and gender non conforming individuals. 273 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,840 It's kind of crazy to think that in many ways for someone like 274 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,320 NDA, life may have been easier in I guess it was the early 275 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,760 2000s than it is today. So it's kind of that really 276 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,240 sharp and clearview of how we have gone backwards rather than 277 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,720 forwards, which is really disappointing. 278 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,440 But yeah, I think she's incredible. 279 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,960 I do as well. And honestly, it was such a 280 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,880 moment last year getting to meet her because I just was like, Oh 281 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,440 my God, you know, you're a big part of just my my. 282 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,840 And I don't know where she went. She sort of just reset all of a 283 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,800 sudden I'm seeing her on Loose Women. 284 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,360 And but yeah, she's, she's a wonderful human being and she 285 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,360 really did pave the way for so many trans people in this 286 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,960 community. So yeah, she definitely deserves 287 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,760 celebration and she should definitely try and get her on 288 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,400 the podcast. Yeah, and I love that she 289 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,000 featured in in What it Feels like for a Girl. 290 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,120 She featured on the BBC show where they kind of showed the 291 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,120 characters seeing her win and kind of the impact they had. 292 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,520 So I do think she's getting kind of almost a renaissance of 293 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,360 attention, which I think she very hardly deserves. 294 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:33,240 Many of us kind of have a memory of that first spark of what I 295 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:34,960 would call kind of that inner quinness. 296 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,600 Do you remember when you did feel that in yourself and how it 297 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,800 felt to feel that in yourself? So like backtracking to when I 298 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,560 was really, really young in those early years, I remember 299 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,720 this feeling of being different and not knowing why. 300 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:58,520 I also remember feeling like I wanted to look like a boy. 301 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,120 I hung around with the other boys. 302 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,840 I had friends that would, you know, I'd always play the male 303 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,480 character and the night. And you know, there's pictures 304 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,280 of me wearing chainmail and it's, you know, of course 305 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,720 there's nothing wrong with with young girls doing that. 306 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,760 But for me it was much deeper than that, right? 307 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,960 It was, it was a sense of identity. 308 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,160 And I don't identify as a trans man. 309 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,840 I do identify as non binary, trans mask, non binary. 310 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,120 But I just remember this feeling back then. 311 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,200 But I learned to internalise. Well, I didn't internalise shame 312 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,240 around that part of my identity because it just wasn't 313 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,120 encouraged. So that was probably where I 314 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,480 felt a sense if I'm different. But then I started to feel like 315 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,440 I'm different, but there's something wrong with me. 316 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,320 I'm not allowed to do this. And and so I guess, you know, 317 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,760 understanding my queerness came a little bit later. 318 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,240 I, I realised that I was attracted to to girls when I was 319 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,080 in my early teens, but I made a promise to myself that I would 320 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,840 never tell anyone. And that was because at the time 321 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,359 I was being really badly bullied. 322 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,240 I was actually called a lesbian at school. 323 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,480 I was called a boy, you know, and not in a positive way. 324 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,240 And I didn't even know what the word lesbian meant. 325 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,839 So I'd be bullied for being a lesbian or looking like a boy 326 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,079 and behaving like a boy. And, and then to come to terms 327 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,359 with my sexuality, it I just, you know, I discarded it and I 328 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,280 tried to do everything I could not to be that. 329 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,720 And it's, you know, it's a sad thought to think back and think 330 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,640 that I held so much shame, whereas today I know there's 331 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,080 nothing wrong with that, you know? 332 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,320 And, and so it took me a long time to embrace my queerness and 333 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,040 to truly understand it. I mean, things have changed over 334 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,120 time. I understand that who we are 335 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,800 isn't fixed. Things can change actually, 336 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,360 which, you know, to me really blew my mind, like to understand 337 00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,400 that about greatness. And I feel like there's so much 338 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,160 misunderstanding and I really had to understand what this 339 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:09,160 meant to me as a young person. And I remember seeing same 340 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,280 gender couples holding hands at college when I was 17. 341 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,160 And that kind of gave me permission to begin to explore 342 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,640 that within myself. And that's why I think that 343 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,480 representation is so important. Like we talk about 344 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720 representation on TV and, and the audience that, you know, the 345 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,360 millions of people that, that see people on our screens and, 346 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,920 and the power of sharing our experiences as well, which is 347 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,640 what I do as a public speaker, right? 348 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,280 That prompted me in my own career. 349 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,600 I wanted to be that role model. And, you know, I truly believe 350 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,160 that our shared experiences are the key to another person's self 351 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,000 empowerment, You know, because they're able to, it gives people 352 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,960 permission, right? And that's, so I had to go 353 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,520 through that journey and, and many people go through that at a 354 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,560 young age, have did go through that at a longer age. 355 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,320 And so it's a bit, a bit a process for me. 356 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,200 But to kind of really untangle all that shame. 357 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,280 I mean, I'm, I'm still doing that today. 358 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,400 You know it's not, it's not an overnight process. 359 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,760 Yeah. And to your point is, you know, 360 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,120 everyone has that kind of unique journey that they go on. 361 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,880 And that is why I think representation is so important. 362 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,840 It's why I love doing this podcast because I think it's so 363 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,040 important to tell so many different versions of similar 364 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800 stories, meaning different people go through it at either a 365 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,680 young age or some people go through it a much older age when 366 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,360 they kind of come to terms with how they feel. 367 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,120 So I think it is so important. But what I've admire about you 368 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,160 so much is just how authentic you come across. 369 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,680 Like I've spent time with you in person. 370 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,960 I've spent time now with you doing this podcast and every 371 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,400 interaction I have with you, I just feel like I'm getting the 372 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,480 real Jude. So when do you think you first 373 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,600 felt authentically yourself? And then when did you feel you 374 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,000 could just be your authentic self unapologetically and bring 375 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,680 it to everything you do? So it's a very broad question, 376 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,440 right? And I, I talked you through my 377 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,720 childhood and the young kid that I, I was that that fearful, 378 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,400 nervous child and. And, you know, I have lots of 379 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,640 tales I'm not going to share here, but I, I've been working 380 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,120 on, on, you know, we develop a mask throughout our lives. 381 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,600 You know, it's like a defence mechanism and, and I developed 382 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,920 these coping mechanisms. But I also, you know, I became a 383 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,800 problem kid. I did things to try and get 384 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,560 validation and, and to be liked by the people when I was growing 385 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,720 up. And I've spent a lot of my adult 386 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,960 life trying to take that mask off and transition was a part of 387 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,920 that. So going through, you know, my, 388 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,320 my physical change and changing my, my pronouns and my name. 389 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,960 And although I don't really see it as a change, I see it more as 390 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,440 alignment to my true self. So we talk about transition 391 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,880 being like about changing ourselves. 392 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,720 For me, it's actually about becoming my true self. 393 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,600 But that was just one part of the journey, one small part of 394 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,280 the journey. You know, now I'm dealing with 395 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,880 more of the nitty gritty impostor syndrome stuff like 396 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,480 near of being seen, not feeling enough, not feeling like I 397 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,040 belong, like I still get like little pangs when I, you know, 398 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,920 when something happens. And it makes me feel that way 399 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,960 because I developed this belief system around my, about myself 400 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,200 in those early years. That's ingrained within me. 401 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,880 And even though intellectually I know those things aren't true, 402 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,080 like within me, those beliefs is still there. 403 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,840 So when you ask that question, when we think about authenticity 404 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,040 in the queer community, often we're only referring to our 405 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,120 queerness, and we associate that word with just that part of our 406 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,120 identity. And I, for a long time, spoke 407 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:38,440 about my authenticity and in the context of my transness, But 408 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,400 it's just a small part of who I am. 409 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,040 It's not all of me. And so much of me has gotten 410 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,360 lost in making that part the most prominent part of my 411 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,680 identity. So I think for me, becoming 412 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,160 truly authentic today means exploring who I am beyond my 413 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,400 transness. It's exploring the parts of 414 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,320 myself where I had to like adapt or change to fit into the world 415 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,680 around me. But I'm neurodivergent, for 416 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,840 example. And one thing that I'm 417 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,880 acknowledging now at the moment is just how much I'm asked. 418 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,520 Like, I feel an enormous amount of anxiety. 419 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,520 I was hosting this event the other day and I, I, I could, I 420 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,040 could hear myself, right? I could hear my mind ask myself, 421 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,760 is this appropriate to say, if I crack a joke, how are other 422 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,400 people going to respond? Like I was monitoring my 423 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,480 thoughts and wondering, you know, what the social rules 424 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,880 were. And, and like, for me, I just, I 425 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,800 haven't really done a lot of work around that. 426 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,840 Like I, I put an impossible standards. 427 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,320 I, I, I set myself an impossible standard sometimes. 428 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,480 And, and I, I have imposter syndromes because I hear these 429 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,000 incredibly eloquent and, and academic and, you know, 430 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,080 activists out there. And I want to match that. 431 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,800 I, I think that there's an expectation and there often is 432 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,560 right when you position yourself as an advocate to, to present 433 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,640 yourself in a certain way, you've got to be really 434 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,040 politically informed. You have to be really articulate 435 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,120 and just not part of my, I mean, I wasn't, I was barely at school 436 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,160 growing. Like, that's my truth and reason 437 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,520 for that. Because, you know, I was 438 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,840 tackling homelessness. I was tackling addiction like, 439 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,560 and it's a valid part of my experience, but it doesn't make 440 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,880 me inadequate. And this is a belief system. 441 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,760 I'm, I'm beginning to understand that my strengths, for example, 442 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,600 has been, you know, I've got a very creative mind. 443 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,080 I've initiated some groundbreaking projects. 444 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,240 You know, I come up with ideas and I'm very good at executing 445 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,640 them, but I don't necessarily need to be this person that I 446 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,840 feel like I need to be. So when it comes to authenticity 447 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,720 that I'm not at the point yet where I feel like I can accept 448 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,520 and love myself in a way that I would like to. 449 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,000 But I'm on this part of my journey now. 450 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,800 And, you know, a lot of people turn to me for, you know, my, my 451 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,720 trans experience and it's kind of becoming a bit outdated for 452 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,560 me today. I'm like, I'm, I'm a point now 453 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,160 where I've got to focus on more, right? 454 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,280 I'm on this next stage of my journey. 455 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,240 And that's why I feel like so many of us, in fact, I've heard 456 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,720 it before where people say, look, all of us, we, many of us 457 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,520 transition, right? So many of us do. 458 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,360 But what we mean by that, I believe is that we learn to be a 459 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,160 true version of ourselves and we learn to be authentic. 460 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,160 And, and that's an individual journey. 461 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,120 And for trans people, yes, we have this side of our experience 462 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:17,320 that, you know, I'm worried that like it's, it's skin deep. 463 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,120 There's so much more to us and then what's on the outside. 464 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,960 Yeah, I agree. And it was actually, you know, 465 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,920 that event last week, it was one of the biggest takeaways I took. 466 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,480 I think it was, Zela said, you know, my transness is the 467 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,080 context, not the plot. And I just thought that was such 468 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,440 an interesting and an incredible way to put it is that yes, it's 469 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560 important and yes, it is provides A context to who I am, 470 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,280 but it's not all that I am. And I think we all kind of go on 471 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,160 that journey to unpick that and to determine kind of who are we? 472 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,480 I also think it's incredible how many people do suffer from 473 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,480 imposter syndrome. I think it's a sign of people 474 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,440 that are pushing themselves into those uncomfortable 475 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,560 circumstances or those uncomfortable situations. 476 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,480 But actually it's our ability to do that that then helps us kind 477 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,120 of overcome that imposter syndrome and to kind of see 478 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,080 ourselves often the way other people already see us as the 479 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,440 expert or as the person that comes across incredibly well on 480 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,040 stage. We often don't see it in 481 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,440 ourselves. And one of the things we kind of 482 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,160 when we started talking about this conversation, we talked 483 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,200 about you as a young person and you've spoken about kind of the 484 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,160 trauma and homelessness and kind of mental health challenges. 485 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,440 But you've also said, and you said it earlier, you wouldn't 486 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,600 change any of that because it made you who you are today. 487 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,800 So how do you think all those experiences shaped kind of you 488 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,800 and the activism now that you do? 489 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,640 I mean, you know, I, I do look back and those experiences have 490 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,480 undoubtedly left the mark on me, right? 491 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,040 They still affect me today, but they've also strengthened me in 492 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,560 many ways. Like they shaped a level of 493 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,640 empathy and sensitivity that I have today. 494 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,960 That can either be my biggest weakness, but they can also be 495 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,640 my biggest strength. And it's depend, it's all 496 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,240 dependent on how I manage that. You know, I like many people 497 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,800 that have struggled with, with trauma or mental health, It's 498 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,720 about how we manage it. And for a long time, for the 499 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,480 last few years actually, I was stuck in this cycle. 500 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,840 I, I was, I came out of a relationship that really 501 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,000 affected me on the other side, you know, and, and you know, 502 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,960 I've had to, I've had to deal with that over the years, but a 503 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,480 lot came up for me over the last three years of that relationship 504 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,640 ending. And, and, you know, I got kind 505 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,480 of stuck in with a lot of activism work and a lot of my 506 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,800 projects. And, but I got stuck in this 507 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,920 cycle of, of just overworking, overdoing it, perhaps burying 508 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,920 myself and burning out. And when you're doing that and 509 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,160 you're nervous system, I mean, I think it's 2024, I counted like 510 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,520 four or five projects that I was doing, like campaigns and 511 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,360 initiatives and, and bearing in mind this isn't my job, by the 512 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,680 way, like, you know, projects that I don't get paid for as 513 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,440 well, but doing all these things and, and, and, and completely 514 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,160 running myself into the ground. And, and when you do that and 515 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,080 your, your, your nervous system gets shot to pieces, right? 516 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,760 Like I, I was living in a constant state of fight or 517 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,440 flight. I wasn't looking after myself. 518 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,000 I was, it was becoming increasingly hard to emotionally 519 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,640 regulate. I also have ADHD, you know, so 520 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,080 when you've got trauma on ADHD, you know, emotional regulation 521 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,000 is, is difficult in that sense. So when you're then running 522 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,760 yourself into the ground, it just became increasingly harder 523 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,000 to actually look after my mental health and then add pormodal 524 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,200 imbalances. And it's like, you know, because 525 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,360 I had a few of them as well. And so, yeah, it, it was it, I 526 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,560 was getting stuck in these cycles and, and then I'd burn 527 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,560 out and I'd crash out and I, you know, and then I'd try again to 528 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760 like, take care of myself and do the good stuff. 529 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,480 And then I'd just get stuck in that cycle again. 530 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,160 It would happen again. It just happened over and over 531 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,640 again. And, and I've always maintained 532 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,040 that my goal has been to lead with love, right? 533 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,280 A lot of my campaigns and initiatives have been about 534 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,320 supporting community, amplifying messages of love and support for 535 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,800 trans for for trans people with the idea that, you know, by 536 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,640 amplifying love, it's just such a powerful way to drown out the 537 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,240 hate, right? And and so, but I've now 538 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,040 understood that, you know, by doing that it has to it has to 539 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,000 come from within first. You know, love is a powerful act 540 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,600 of resistance, especially against those who seek to divide 541 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,640 and disempower and arose our community. 542 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,800 But I've really had to understand what it means to 543 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,320 prioritise myself. Like it's been a hard lesson, 544 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,240 but now for me, like I, I make, I prioritise self-care, I 545 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,760 prioritise pacing myself. I prioritise forgiveness as well 546 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,120 alongside accountability. The two can exist 547 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,720 simultaneously, by the way, right? 548 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,440 Rather than getting, you know, allowing myself to get engulfed 549 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,720 by everything that's going on. You know, I'm, I don't really 550 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,200 watch the news at the moment. Like I'm staying away and I'm 551 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,680 putting in, I'm implementing boundaries just because of what 552 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,040 I do. And I just remind myself that 553 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,800 to, to, to be able to lead with love, I have to learn to embody 554 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:23,880 love. And in order to do that, I've 555 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,840 got to learn to love myself. And, and by embodying love, you 556 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,080 know, there's a ripple effect and, and that will philtre out 557 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,960 into all the work that I do. So I've just had to be very 558 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,480 strict with myself to take care of my recovery, to take care of 559 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,200 my body, to take care of my health myself 1st. 560 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,480 And I make no apologies for that. 561 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,640 I, you know, I learned, I learned very early on to self 562 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,560 neglect and abandoned myself, especially to be liked and loved 563 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,840 by others. So I've had to challenge myself 564 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,280 because there's been a part of me that still seeks validation, 565 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,440 that wants to seek validation from other people. 566 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120 And so to challenge myself not to do that, I've kind of been 567 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,040 left with a little ball of like, who am I if I'm not an who am I? 568 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440 If I'm not an activist? Who am I if I don't get on 569 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,520 social media, Who am I if like I don't have a relationship or 570 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,800 people around like who's me to me? 571 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:13,400 And it's been difficult, you know, but it's been, it's been 572 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,440 so healing, you know, to just allow those feelings to come up, 573 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,640 to cry them out and just to be like, just cried out. 574 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,360 The sense of worthlessness that I feel inside that I constantly 575 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,640 try and avoid by doing XY and Z. So, you know, there's been a lot 576 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,040 of learning for me. I mean, I'll be 40 next year, so 577 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,640 I feel like I'm getting a bit older and wiser and, well, yeah. 578 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,000 God, that was a lot. Well, I'm 40 this year, so so 579 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,080 I'll let you know how it feels, but I think it is so important. 580 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,360 And actually I spoke to Rico Jacob Chase on the podcast and 581 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,440 they talked about this as well, which is why it's so important 582 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,120 to have more than one person. You, it takes a group because at 583 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,960 times all of us will need to step back to take care of 584 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,840 ourselves. So you need to have those other 585 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,440 people who are able to kind of step forward and you need those 586 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,680 kind of those alliances and those groups of people that can 587 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,280 kind of come up. And obviously one of the things 588 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,120 you have spent a lot of time and you focused on was founding the 589 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Trans Solidarity Alliance, which is just an incredible 590 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,600 organisation. For anyone who might be 591 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,200 unfamiliar, can you just give us a quick overview of the 592 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,640 organisation and what you guys do? 593 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,720 Absolutely Trans Plus Solidarity Alliance is a nonprofit 594 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,000 organisation that supports trans community organisations and 595 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,400 activists to work together with SYS allies to drive positive 596 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,360 change for trans people in the UK. 597 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:39,800 We set up at the end of 2023 and over the years we have 598 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,480 facilitated campaigns, parliamentary briefings, we have 599 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,840 a political engagement programme and our goal is to to advocate 600 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,720 for the human rights of trans people. 601 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,080 And we organised a mass lobby last June, which was the largest 602 00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,760 LGBTQ political lobby event in UK history actually, which was 603 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,000 incredible. We've also LED various 604 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,960 campaigns, the trans youth love campaign, also Trans Secret 605 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,760 Santa UK as well. So we do a lot and, and I've 606 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,640 just, I am so blown away by how much it's grown over the years 607 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,840 and, and the team as well. That works so unbelievably hard 608 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,960 is all the work that we've done is in our own time and and yeah, 609 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,160 I'm I'm just so very proud of of our organisation. 610 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,720 Yeah, you should be. And we'll include a. 611 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,320 Link in the podcast description. So if anyone wants to check it 612 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,800 out, they can. I think it's so important. 613 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,280 You know, it's interesting because you know, the trans 614 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,560 experience very specifically has become very political 615 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,520 unfortunately recently. And obviously that's some of the 616 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,120 work that you all do. And I think it's so important 617 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,720 that there are trans and non binary people represented in 618 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,880 that conversation. We think about the the, you 619 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,760 know, the terrible Supreme Court ruling that happened in 2025. 620 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,760 And from my understanding, there wasn't a single trans or non 621 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,360 binary person included in that work that led up to that 622 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,720 decision. So how's that experience for you 623 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,440 being of crossing into that political and I guess policy 624 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,480 space? I mean, it's been. 625 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,960 Such a journey for me because I started to get involved in 626 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,520 community grassroots activism in the first year of my transition. 627 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:31,120 You know, I was very, I was like 6 months into realising that I 628 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:38,480 was trans and I made part of a community group in Brighton and, 629 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,640 and it just kind of happened right where I was involved with 630 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,800 organising, helping organise protests and being involved with 631 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,120 being almost at the front line of a lot of a lot of direct 632 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,720 action stuff. So it was very different to what 633 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,800 I, the stuff that I do today and, and it taught me a lot. 634 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,040 Actually, I, I learned a lot from other people. 635 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,960 We were behind a lot of different campaigns that that 636 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,880 kind of exploded solidarity campaigns. 637 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,719 And there was the hashtag L with the T movement that then gave 638 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,520 birth to like or, or inspired, shall we say, other hashtag with 639 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,719 the T movement. So to be kind of in the central 640 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,520 that with, with the community and then having all of that 641 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,159 experience over the years and, and, and seeing that you could 642 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,000 inspire solidarity, you know, you could create a hashtag and, 643 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,719 and you could create a movement and, and it gave something for 644 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,560 allies to stand behind and empowered them was a really 645 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,400 powerful thing to experience. And it in, over the years, I 646 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,360 kind of recognised that actually the power was with our allies 647 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:50,000 that for nought .5% of, of the UK population or under 1% of the 648 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,320 global population, trans people just simply could not fight for 649 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,679 their own rights alone. Like it's just not, it would 650 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,080 never happen, right? We, we need allies. 651 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,480 So the idea of a trans solidarity alliance actually 652 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,240 came to me in 2019, just before COVID. 653 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,720 And the idea would be to bring organisations together to talk 654 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:13,440 about how we were going to, what we were going to do, right. 655 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,320 And you know, I often think of that phrase, we are stronger 656 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:17,800 together. We really, really are. 657 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,080 And of course COVID happened and nothing went ahead. 658 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,040 And I, we almost ended up going in a completely different 659 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,840 direction with my own career. And it wasn't until the end of 660 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,880 2023 where the thought came. I was seeing what was going on 661 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,320 and I was noticing that, you know, the, there was the attack 662 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,480 on trans rights was just, you know, it was getting, things 663 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,040 were getting worse and worse. And I just thought, you know, 664 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,760 perhaps I should revive this idea that actually we, there was 665 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:55,120 space for another organisation. And, and so I, I just, you know, 666 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,200 I launched the idea. I've brought some people 667 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,960 together who I knew could, could help. 668 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,320 So I approached people who worked in political spaces, who 669 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,160 had lobbying experience and brought those individuals 670 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,840 together. And like I said, the Trans 671 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,280 Solidarity Alliance has just grown into such an incredible 672 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,760 team. We all bring different skills to 673 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,280 the table. I think that's really important 674 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,320 to say. Like I, you know, I didn't 675 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,400 necessarily, I, I'm not a political expert, never really 676 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,080 have been. I, I've learned so much along 677 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,800 the way, but we have those people within the organisation 678 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,880 and, and, but then we have people with so many different 679 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,440 skills and I've learned so much about working as a collective 680 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,800 and how when you work with people with different skills, 681 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,000 you just, you add more, right. And, and I think that that's why 682 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,640 we worked well together. We facilitated the mass lobby 683 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,720 And, and that was just, I mean, what the team managed to pull 684 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,000 together was I, I, it's was incredible. 685 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,880 And, and you know, it was such a historic moment as well. 686 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,760 And I had really have to take your credit to such a hard 687 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,640 working team at TSA because that must all be made international 688 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,360 headlines. It was incredible, you know, so 689 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,120 we've got an incredible team. It did feel intimidating 690 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,560 stepping into that space, you know, But as you know, we've 691 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,760 supported. 1. Another we're all friends, we 692 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,000 we've got such a nice relationship and and there's, 693 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:26,440 you know, we don't really have a hierarchy, which I really like 694 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,480 as well. You know, we, we, we operate as 695 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,800 that collective and I believe that's why we operate very well. 696 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,680 But, but you're right, as you said, with regards to trans 697 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,280 voices not being heard, that's something that we do, right? 698 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,720 So we, we platform trans voices in parliament and we actually 699 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,200 hosted the first all trans panel in parliament where we had a 700 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,960 whole panel of trans people talking on trans youth and 701 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,280 educate in education. And, and we've tried to continue 702 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,480 that work where trans voices are prioritised in those spaces and 703 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,720 they are heard and, and, and that's so important. 704 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,360 Yeah, it is so incredibly important. 705 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,920 Showing up, having voices of people who have lived 706 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,280 experiences for anything that the government might be 707 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,640 considering or looking at. I think government such an 708 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,680 important part of it. But then I also think a lot 709 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,600 about just the general population. 710 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,600 And one of the ways I think we can reach the general population 711 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,960 is through visibility, representation and just 712 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,720 normalising all aspects of the community, the LGBT community 713 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,400 and just people as a whole. And one of the ways we do that 714 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,920 is obviously through things like media campaigns. 715 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,240 And you were the first non binary face of Harrods H Beauty. 716 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,560 What did that mean to you? How did it come about and what 717 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,920 did it signal do you think, to the media and advertising 718 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,000 industry at the time about where we were going? 719 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,840 I mean it. Honestly that the Harrods beauty 720 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,640 campaign was one of the best and most pivotal moments of my 721 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,800 entire life. And I often talk about it even 722 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,960 though it was forward or something years ago. 723 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,280 And I was actually I believe the first trans person as well to be 724 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,480 the a face for Harrods to be involved, to be part of the 725 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,480 Harrods campaign, let alone just H beauty. 726 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,000 So trans and non binary as well. It was incredible. 727 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,720 Like I never in my wildest dreams could I have ever have 728 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,160 imagined if I could tell my young self, oh, by the way, 729 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,440 you're going to be in a Harrods campaign. 730 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,640 I would just never have believed, you know, I'm 731 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,240 relentlessly bullied for how I looked when I was at school. 732 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,160 So it was an incredibly empowering experience for me 733 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,840 because of just that as well to, to be involved with that. 734 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,320 And you know, I was, I was 3033 years old. 735 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,960 It was the first summer after my top surgery. 736 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,440 And so I was at a point in my transition where I was really 737 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,520 coming into myself and finally feeling like in my skin and 738 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,200 happy and, and, and, and it was actually the the first lockdown 739 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,440 and this was summer of 2020 where so many of us had, you 740 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,600 know, it was an awful time for so many. 741 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,320 But quite honestly, I had an opportunity to really connect 742 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,480 with myself that summer and I actually had a really nice 743 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,240 summer. And, and it just gave me that 744 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:18,400 chance. But I think I just very, I very 745 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,960 naturally started to share my experience online a little bit 746 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,360 more, which as a speaker, I'm usually used to going into, I 747 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,040 was going more into schools at that time to share that part of 748 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,880 my experience. So I was doing it more online. 749 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,200 And I believe that's what attracted the casting agent. 750 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,200 But I, I got this DM, which I thought was spam, as you do in 751 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,920 casting for a House campaign. Yeah, sure. 752 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,240 Whatever. Like you know, it's blog. 753 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,880 Well, I thought it was a scam. You know, I looked up the 754 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,160 casting agent. I was like, oh, that's the 755 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:50,760 biggest casting agent in the world. 756 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,680 OK, maybe it's legit. And it was just what I was 757 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,000 actually in Italy staying with my mum because I put my stuff in 758 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,200 storage, couldn't pay the rent. It was a lockdown, right? 759 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,800 I was, you know, in a bit of a sticky situation. 760 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,240 And I, yeah, I was in Italy and I was trying to just looking 761 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,560 after myself and in comes this thing and I doing, you know, 762 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,280 the, the self tape I'd like was sticking this my, my iPhone to 763 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,360 the window. So I was getting good. 764 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,400 It's like getting the tape. And I spent all day trying to 765 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,800 get it right. And then, you know, then I got a 766 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,440 WhatsApp message within a couple of weeks telling me that I got 767 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,680 it. And I was like, what? 768 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,440 And that they were going to fly me back to England. 769 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,960 I mean, here's me where I've got my stuff in storage. 770 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,720 And it's like, and they flew me back to do the the commercial. 771 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,520 And it was just, it was so amazing. 772 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,160 Like I'd never done a shoot in my life ever. 773 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,480 Right. I know I'd done one shoot. 774 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,880 Tell her that I'd done one shoot before with the photographer 775 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,000 just for like some headshots that like, and then all of a 776 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,960 sudden, you know, I'm getting recorded. 777 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,560 And like, I had to do this whole commercial and they, you know, 778 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,000 and, and it just, yeah, apparently it was everywhere. 779 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,760 And, and I remember them asking me, they were like, look, 780 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,480 everybody that's involved in this campaign talks about their 781 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,320 beauty, you know, and it was like, my beauty is my art or my 782 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,880 beauty is, you know, whatever. And, and what, So what is yours? 783 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,200 And, and I remember thinking like my beauty is being myself. 784 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,360 And, and that became my, my sort of phrase for the commercial. 785 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,560 And, and actually it's, it's been my motto really. 786 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,760 And, and it's, it's not about external beauty. 787 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,720 I just want to say that it's not about like necessarily just my 788 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:29,920 transition and, and the way that I looked it, it was about 789 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,520 finding self acceptance. It was about starting to find 790 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,920 that sense of, of, of pride and love for myself that I'd never 791 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,200 felt. That's what my beauty is being 792 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,920 myself really means to me. And it's really important for me 793 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,400 to say that because it's, you know, as I'm going on this 794 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,440 journey, I continue to, to, to try and, you know, try and, and 795 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,280 access that sense of finding beauty from within rather than 796 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,920 to look outside of myself. And, and it's an ongoing journey 797 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,960 for me, but it was honestly, it was life changing. 798 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,160 And my, my career just just just went in a completely different 799 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,120 direction. It's like the lockdown eased and 800 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,400 all of a sudden I've got an ageing all of a sudden, you 801 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,920 know, I was in vogue that year as well, Vogue Italia 802 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,600 specifically. And, and I'm doing, you know, 803 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,400 castings and then I was in glow up and I was doing all these 804 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,240 different bits and pieces here and there and it was so much 805 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:29,000 fun. And, you know, the reason that I 806 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,200 really enjoyed the panel with Della Morgan and Zia Glasson the 807 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,800 other night and talking about representation is because I 808 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,920 really do believe in it. So I, I do, I, I wanted to do 809 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,000 that too, right? I was so passionate about, you 810 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,920 know, being that person for, you know, trans youth that, that 811 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,040 were like me who thought it was never possible to be who you are 812 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,320 or that you would never get there. 813 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,760 And I, I really wanted to show them that, you know, it's, it's 814 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,640 never too late, you know, ever. And, and, and actually, sorry, 815 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,840 never too late. They're young, let's say that. 816 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,640 Well, yeah, it's never too late to be who you are and that and 817 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,560 that even if they're not themselves right now, you know 818 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,120 that one day they'll get a chance. 819 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,080 You know, it it it will happen and and you just have to keep 820 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,000 going. So yeah, it's that was I, I'd 821 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,680 love to do more stuff like that. I've just, I've got, I've gotten 822 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,800 very like pigeonholed in in my activism nowadays, so I do less 823 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,600 of that, unfortunately. It's so important though, and I. 824 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,760 Think there was such an interesting time in kind of the 825 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,160 early twenty 20s where we were seeing really we were seeing 826 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,440 improvement anyway from from my perspective of representation in 827 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,720 things like advertising campaigns and the way and the 828 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:49,160 way the brands were working with people. 829 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,880 It does feel like we've now seen an unfortunate shift again. 830 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,000 I think often that is kind of pinpointed to the Dillon 831 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,800 Mulvaney campaign with Bud Light and, and the kind of the 832 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,040 backlash that happened on both sides of the equation there. 833 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,720 And we've seen brands kind of pull away from it. 834 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,840 I have a very strong opinion on this, that this kind of backlash 835 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,600 that people think is happening is kind of perceived, not 836 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,760 reality. Boots here in the UK did an 837 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,120 incredible 2024 Christmas campaign where they featured non 838 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,200 binary and trans individuals and there was a lot of quote unquote 839 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,600 backlash online. Look at their sales figures. 840 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,360 It didn't impact it at all. They had the same sales, if not 841 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,320 better sales than they would have during the kind of 842 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,400 Christmas period. So I am a strong believer that 843 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,840 it's perceived and we just need to be louder than the backlash. 844 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,720 So when you think about the fact that there are brand fewer 845 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,800 brands kind of showing up for the LGBTQ plus community in the 846 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,960 kind of the bold ways that Harrods did, what advice I 847 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,680 guess, would you offer to those brands who want to engage with 848 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,040 the community, who want to have that visibility, but that are 849 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,560 just nervous given the current climate if they're nervous? 850 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,360 Hire a consultant, hire an educator, hire someone like me 851 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,120 to come in and to educate the team. 852 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,480 Because I know there's a lot of fear. 853 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:11,000 And I know that because I work most of the organisations that I 854 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,760 work with, we talk about the fear, right? 855 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,520 And, and, and them not knowing how to get, get it right and 856 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,280 wanting to get it right, but also the fear of, of what might 857 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,320 happen if they do. And, and just kind of, I know 858 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,840 that a lot of brands just kind of, I don't want to say most, 859 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,760 but I know there are brands out there that just want, kind of 860 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,240 want to avoid that little headache. 861 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:35,280 You know, they just think they might think let's just kind of 862 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,000 it's not, I'm not anti trans, I'm not opposed to it, but let's 863 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,960 just not because it's easier not to, because trans people are 864 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,920 just, you know, small minorities. 865 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,640 So let's just you know, but every time you do that, you're 866 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,960 feeding it into the to to the to the to the issue, to the problem 867 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,320 that is just so much greater than just the attack on the 868 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,520 trans community is it is an attack on human rights and and 869 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,280 what we're seeing around the world, right? 870 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:10,040 It's part the same issue and, and, and it's important to 871 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,200 recognise that the same movement that is attempting to roll back 872 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,760 LGBTQ plus rights is the very same movement that is seeking to 873 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,360 erode women's rights. Like we must understand that and 874 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,760 we cannot afford to succumb to the pressure or retreat when if 875 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,320 you retreat into silence and and you begin to do that, you'll get 876 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,720 like more will come believe you me. 877 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,520 And actually the most powerful thing you can do is to ensure 878 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,000 that you represent all people, particularly those that are more 879 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,440 marginalised, because brands can have real influence, you know, 880 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,440 and when that comes, you know, when when 1 brand does that 881 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,560 again, it gives permission for another brand to do the same. 882 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,360 But if we work together, you know, that kind of influence has 883 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,640 the ability to create real change, you know, meaningful 884 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,320 change. And I understand that that feels 885 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,840 like that includes risk. But I mean, you know, that's the 886 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,880 world we're living in today. But I believe that the more 887 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,040 organisations that stand firm, the harder it becomes to isolate 888 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,760 and silence any one of them. You know, and the closer and 889 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,400 closer we're going to move towards lasting progress. 890 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,320 Actually, the power is within, you know, the media is within, 891 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,240 you know, brand campaigns, It's within, you know, the kind of 892 00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:34,120 platforms that have wider reach. When we begin to humanise trans 893 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,240 people like myself, which, you know, anyone would watch me and 894 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,320 think, oh, just like, you know, my friend, like, and I get this 895 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,960 all the time that people are shocked. 896 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,560 They're almost shocked that I'm just like regular, you know, and 897 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,720 I'm like, I barely even wear colour. 898 00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:53,440 I think this is, I mean, I, you know, I don't wear rainbow like 899 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,320 I'm not, but that's because, you know, we exist in, in, in all 900 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,320 our forms, like, in all our, like, we're just people like 901 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,720 everybody else, right? And, and so, but even the people 902 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,160 that do wear rainbows, like we just, we're human beings are 903 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,000 diverse by nature, right? And, and, and we're all 904 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,640 different. And so it doesn't surprise me 905 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,560 when you say that there was no difference in, in boot sales. 906 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,560 In fact, they did better because by by focusing on diversity, 907 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:25,360 we're focusing on all people, all people, not just about one 908 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,320 group. Being inclusive isn't just about 909 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,640 including, we're including lots of groups. 910 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,280 And all of those groups make up the human rights like we're 911 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,360 diversifying nature and, and inclusivity is, is just a part 912 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,240 of bringing everyone to the table, right? 913 00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,440 And it's just and we shouldn't, and this is another thing, you 914 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,840 know, I say, look at me, but also we shouldn't have to 915 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,480 assimilate, right? I shouldn't have to look like a 916 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,320 regular person. We should be embraced for who we 917 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,080 are. And one of the things that I 918 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,400 love that Ella said was that she wants to see diversity in in in 919 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,440 all it's we want to see transfer older trans people represented, 920 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,160 you know, as well. Like it's, there's this 921 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,840 expectation you have to kind of like meet a certain kind of 922 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,960 standards in order to be accepted by the sys community 923 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,760 and actually know, like, why should that be? 924 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,360 And, and actually we need to be presented across the board. 925 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,840 Like there should be more representation of more people. 926 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,640 So change has never been made by playing it safe. 927 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,280 It's been made when people like brands choose to show up with 928 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,560 courage, choose to show up with clarity and make a commitment to 929 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,960 do the right thing even when the current climate feels really 930 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,720 uncomfortable. Yeah, I agree. 931 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:42,680 I I've. Spoken to many as CMO and said 932 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,400 kind of real ally ship is showing up even when it's 933 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,160 slightly inconvenient to do so there is a little bit of risk. 934 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,440 We recognise that risk. But that's why it actually 935 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,240 brings me back to something we were talking about right at the 936 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,440 start, which is it's why it's so important to have representation 937 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,400 on both sides of the camera. Because if you have 938 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,760 representation internally at your company of representation 939 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,640 on your boards and on your leadership teams, I believe 940 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,760 you're much more likely to make decisions that are more diverse, 941 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,880 that are more inclusive because you have that within yourselves 942 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,240 as well. So I think it's that kind of 943 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,840 that duality of it that is really important both in front 944 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,040 of the camera and behind the scenes because visibility can 945 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,200 change lives. And I do genuinely believe that. 946 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,200 And obviously you do such incredible work from a 947 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,680 visibility, visibility perspective, but as we've also 948 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,200 touched on, it can expose you to scrutiny and it can expose you 949 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:35,000 to quote unquote trolls online. So how do you kind of navigate 950 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,200 that side of things as someone who both sits publicly at the 951 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,120 intersection of activism and media and fashion and, and, and 952 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,320 everything else in between? Yeah. 953 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,800 And I'd say the scrutiny. Extends beyond just the trolls. 954 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,240 You know you know you're. We're often held to a standard 955 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:57,800 and you know, I will often hear more scrutiny and feedback in 956 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,840 the negative sense that sometimes, you know, otherwise. 957 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,320 And maybe that just comes from this kind of personal 958 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,040 expectation as well. I don't know. 959 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,960 But of course, yes, there is a lot of scrutiny and it's of 960 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,160 course, it's a tough world out there, particularly online, I 961 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,920 have to say. And there's been moments where I 962 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,960 have actually been, you know, really badly trolled and it's 963 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,760 been especially in with one singular post has been a lot, 964 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,880 you know, especially with regards to my non binary 965 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,560 identity and people completely, you know, invalidating it or 966 00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:35,200 mocking me. And, you know, and it's really 967 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,840 important to me. And as much as I feel very proud 968 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,640 of that part of my identity, it still takes its toll. 969 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,720 But you know, I, I've learned just to not give trolls my time. 970 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,240 Like I, I have a very strict delete and block policy where if 971 00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:55,760 I see one word that is remotely negative, it's just out. 972 00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:01,000 I don't even register it. And I certainly don't, I don't 973 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,160 argue with people online. I don't give my time trying to 974 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,600 talk them round. I do enough in my work to, to 975 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,160 educate and engage and attempt to empower people in that way. 976 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,560 I, I just don't feel the need to do it online. 977 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,280 And obviously looking after my physical and mental and 978 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,560 spiritual health is, is, is my priority today. 979 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,640 And you know, it's interesting because I've spoken about these 980 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,840 different facets of my career. And I guess there's been times 981 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,120 where I've sort of been a bit more visible and, and I've had 982 00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:34,600 brand collaborations and I've done more of that work and, and, 983 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,560 and nowadays I've kind of been pushed into the direction of, of 984 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,840 activism a bit more. And I say push because it, it 985 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,160 was never my intention to kind of just go off in One Direction 986 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,200 more than another. Actually really, really enjoyed 987 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,200 the work that I did with brands. And actually when I think of 988 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,320 this year, maybe it's something that I can focus a bit more on 989 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,960 because it can be really draining. 990 00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,880 You know, it can be a lot. And in fact, the last, the last 991 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,160 project I worked on, which I actually love is the Trans 992 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,480 Secret Santa UK initiative where we raise lots of money and send 993 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,080 gifts to transit across the country. 994 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,600 And, and, and, but I was exhausted and, and I've had to 995 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,800 really sort of step back and have a think about, you know, 996 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,840 how I'm going to take care of myself and, and how I want to 997 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:25,600 kind of moving to 2026 because yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot. 998 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,840 It's draining. It's, you know, anxiety 999 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,600 inducing, you know, someone that's been live their life 1000 00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:34,480 fearing what people think, which I want to say. 1001 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,960 But on the flip side, I kind of want to challenge at the same 1002 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,760 time, because, you know, it, it really doesn't matter. 1003 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,280 Like I, I've got to a stage shower. 1004 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,240 I just think, you know, the most important person is me. 1005 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,680 And, and the work's great, right? 1006 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,440 But like, I don't need to pay so much attention to what people 1007 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,920 think, particularly when do I even like those people? 1008 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,000 Like, do you know what I mean? Like why and why am I giving all 1009 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,160 my attention to anti trans people like as well? 1010 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,760 I just think, you know what? I'm more effective when I focus 1011 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,400 on a on the solution. Like I'm I'm a solutions person. 1012 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,960 I come, I think, OK, so this is happening. 1013 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,360 Let's do this, this is happening. 1014 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,880 Let's focus on love and solidarity. 1015 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,480 And it, it not just because it's needed, because it also helps me 1016 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,200 when I'm sucked into, and I have been, I've been sucked into all 1017 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:28,800 the negativity and I, I, I go down like a, a rabbit hole and I 1018 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,560 doom scroll and I get stuck and it and I, and my mental health 1019 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,640 combos and then I'm no good to anyone. 1020 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,360 And actually, sometimes when I'm in that, it can alienate and 1021 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,080 it's, it's valid because it's hard not to nowadays. 1022 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,640 The hate is so loud, right? It's just everywhere. 1023 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,800 And so to say, I'll just ignore it. 1024 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,520 That's not what I'm saying. But what I have learned is that 1025 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,280 I have to learn to prioritise my well-being, particularly someone 1026 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,920 with, you know, history of mental health and addiction 1027 00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:01,000 challenges. So this is how I'm dealing with 1028 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,600 it and it's, it's just been a process of learning, you know, 1029 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,320 year in, year out and, and getting to a stage now where she 1030 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,760 probably feels stronger than ever, which is amazing. 1031 00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:15,600 Although like I, I'm not, I barely worked, you know, it's 1032 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,240 like works, you know, and, and, but it's been necessary for me 1033 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,760 some time out and to really think about that. 1034 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,360 But yeah, I don't know if that's answered your question. 1035 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,160 I did and I think it is so. Important that we do focus on 1036 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,240 ourselves when we need to actually, arguably at all times, 1037 00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:33,520 we should be focused on ourselves, right? 1038 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,040 If we if we if we are crumbling or if we're not at our best, we 1039 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,280 can't do our best work and we can't bring kind of all the all 1040 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,440 the work that we need to bring to to bear. 1041 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,080 And I think what's interesting is this kind of journey we've 1042 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,240 gone on on this podcast. We started this podcast talking 1043 00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,480 about you as a young as your younger self. 1044 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,640 So I'd love to ask you if you could give your younger self one 1045 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,640 piece of advice, what would it be? 1046 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,480 And would it be different if I just said, what advice would you 1047 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,880 give to a young LGBTQ plus person today in 2026? 1048 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,600 So I actually wrote. A letter to my young trans self 1049 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,360 recently and and it was a part of the trans Secret Santa 1050 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,840 project. We printed them out actually and 1051 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,400 sent them out to 900 kids. But I wrote a whole letter to 1052 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,800 myself and, and I was trying to communicate to those young 1053 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,560 people. And one of the things that I 1054 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,840 always say is this, this idea of holding on. 1055 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,080 Because actually it was something that I remember just 1056 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,840 thinking to myself when I was young, things were really 1057 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,840 intense and really hard and really difficult. 1058 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,160 And there were times where I just, I thought that I wasn't 1059 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,520 going to make it. And actually, not to get 1060 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,600 entirely personal, but there were times that I almost didn't, 1061 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,880 right. And, and there were some really 1062 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,320 extreme consequences to, to some, some of unfortunately 1063 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,280 myself, destructive behaviours, but I luckily pulled through. 1064 00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,400 And I, I just want to say this to, to young people, you know, 1065 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,480 if it's, if it's hard, like just hold on to a sense that it, it 1066 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:15,200 can and will get better if you do like, and I don't for a 1067 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,400 minute want to assume what anyone's life is like, but I 1068 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,720 just know how hard it was for me growing up. 1069 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:27,200 And I know that, you know, I have got to a place now where, 1070 00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,640 you know, it is better. Yeah. 1071 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,560 I'm, I'm not free from some of the hardships that I went 1072 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,560 through, but it's become like they, they, you know, some of 1073 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,280 that has strengthened me to a point that I've, you know, 1074 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,360 become, this is the thing we talk about resilience, about 1075 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,560 become so resilient. But you know, that word can be 1076 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,960 really exhausting. And I, I just want, I just want, 1077 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,040 I want young people to know that that life can get easier if you 1078 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,440 hold on. And, and I would have said 1079 00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,520 something similar, I would say something similar to, to a young 1080 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:05,160 LGBTQ person, even if it's not right now, one day you'll get 1081 00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:06,840 the chance to be who you truly are. 1082 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,440 And so just never give up. Ever. 1083 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,040 Yeah, that's probably the most important message we can give to 1084 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,360 people. Don't give up. 1085 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,760 And then there is a path to it being better. 1086 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,400 So I really appreciate that and I know others will. 1087 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,760 Jude, thank you so much for being on Quid Talker with me. 1088 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,920 This has been such an incredible conversation, such an 1089 00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,240 interesting conversation. But also I've admired you for a 1090 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,720 long time and I've just admired the work you do, the activism 1091 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,800 you do, the visibility you bring, the your ability to bring 1092 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,840 people together. We talked a lot about the event 1093 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,400 that happened last week in London. 1094 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,800 Your ability to bring the community together is so 1095 00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,920 important because we do all need each other now more than ever. 1096 00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,760 So more than anything, I just want to say a massive thank you 1097 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,080 for everything you do for the entire LGBTQ plus community. 1098 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:54,160 Thank you so much, Ben. Thank you for. 1099 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:54,720 Having me.