I truly believe that our shared experiences are the key to
another person's self empowerment.
We talk about transition being like, about changing ourselves.
For me, it's actually about becoming my true self.
For a long time spoke about my authenticity in the context of
my transness. But it's just a small part of
who I am. It's not all of me.
The same movement that is attempting to roll back LGBTQ
plus rights is the very same movement that is seeking to
erode women's rights. Like we cannot afford to come to
the pressure or retreat. I remember just thinking to
myself when I was young, things were really intense and really
hard and really difficult. And there were times where I
just, I thought I wasn't going to make it.
And actually, not to get entirely personal, but there
were times I almost didn't. Hello and welcome back to the
Queerest podcast telling the fiercest stories.
This is queer talker and I'm Ben Cechetti.
Before we get to my conversation with the incredible Jude
Watamaki, I have a very quick favour to ask.
Wherever you are watching or listening to this episode, hit
that subscribe button. It's one click and it's going to
make a massive difference. It's going to allow me to grow
this podcast, grow the community and continue bringing you the
best and the Queerest episodes every single time.
So in advance, thank you. Now to my conversation with
Jude. Jude, we are going to start with
a little game I like to call Queer Panic.
You just respond with the first thing that comes to your mind,
starting with what was the first album you ever owned?
So I'm going to say this with my full chest, OK, But the first
album I ever owned was the Spice Girls when I was 10 years old.
Barts At the same time my dad also got me an Oasis album as
well, so I don't know which one came first, but I was definitely
definitely a non binary child even back then.
Spice Girls are cool. I'm just going to put it out
there. Spice Girls was one of my first
albums, so I'm obsessed. That's a that's a great answer.
Speaking of music, if you had to lip sync for your life, what
song would you choose? I.
Think I just, you will never see me lip syncing for your life.
That's just something I wouldn't do even if I was on stage in
front of roof. I'd be like, listen babe, I'm
not. I'm not a lip syncher and I'm so
atrociously terrible when it comes to music.
I really, really am. It's embarrassing and I love
music, don't get me wrong, but I just will get stuck on the same
song over and over again. And so recently I like stumbled
across Youngblood because I was at like the ass you award.
Are you there? And I checked out his music and
I loved it. So yeah, love a bit of
Youngblood. It's not perfect.
It's this lip sync for your life kind of song, but.
I can think you can bring the vibe.
His new album's amazing. I love this new album.
It's great. Yeah, Yeah, it's great.
So I mean, yeah, let's just say. I've got a playlist I add them
to, so I'm just going to pick my favourite Youngbloods and I'll
add it on there. And that'll be your lip sync
song if this ever happens. What is your favourite queer
movie or TV show? Right.
So I absolutely loved Pose. I was such a fan of the show.
I I just, I think I watched the first episode and I just binge
watched it I think in one go. But I know there's been some
controversy with Ryan Murphy, but for me, it was really all
about the actors and the fact that they were really
authentically representing and telling the story of like
ballroom culture. And I know that I was even
looking into the stories of the actors and some of them were
actually from that era as well. And I just found it so
fascinating to learn about their stories as trans people living
in New York. It really tell told the story of
the AIDS crisis as well. And it really gave you a sense
of that time in history. And I just, I was hooked.
I really, really, really loved Pose.
So I'm a Pose fan. For sure, I love it.
Such a good show and I think I love shows like that because so
much of our history can get forgotten.
And you know, we see RuPaul's Drag Race is a great example of
this round. We just kind of had this picture
of where drag came from. But to kind of get that
background to get that history lesson on on New York, the
ballroom culture and everything that it came from it.
Same with things like It's a sin and kept talking about the kind
of the AIDS crisis. It's just such an incredibly
important thing that we don't forget, and then we kind of have
that respect for the people that came before us and paved the way
for us to be able to sit here and have this podcast today.
So I love that show. And I love the fact that there
are shows out there that are so informative and educational.
You know, it's, I mean, I, I'm hugely dyslexic.
I'm not a big reader, but I love documentaries.
I love learning. And especially when it comes to
the history of our community, you know, so many of us grew up
with Section 28 and we just had no access to any information
about our own community. So to be able to learn in that
way, just for me, yeah, it was a phenomenal show.
And I I'm a big Indian or fan. There we go.
Yeah, I love that dream. Podcast guest, in case they're
listening. Who is your ultimate queer icon?
Do you know what I really really struggle to think of?
Who my, who my icons actually are.
I feel like there are so many amazing advocates and
celebrities that, and people that I admire and today and like
throughout history and who've made such a difference within
the community. But there's also people that
don't have visibility right, who won't go down in the history
books, who've made such a difference difference to
people's lives. And I can't help wanting to
celebrate those who don't get to be celebrated.
I, I mean, I do with my people, don't get me wrong, but I just,
I, it's, I've got to this point in my life where I really
strongly believe in like not deifying people.
Like I feel like, I feel like it's how systems, like systems
work better without the, with the distribution of power, not
domination, right? And I feel like when we like,
surrender our power, our faith, like 1 singular person, we
almost end up trading our agency and, and have an illusion of
security. Like so many people have fallen
off my pedestal throughout the years.
I've had so many people that I've looked up to and you know,
I used to work in TV as well, so I got to meet a lot of people
that I looked up to. And time and time again, I'd be
like, oh wow, you know, and, and, and actually, I feel like
concentrating all our trust on like a hero, we end up like
dismantling the very cheques and balances that that protect
community. And so I guess I'm learning
nowadays, and I know this is a very, very deep answer to this
question. I'm understanding that the
definition of leadership isn't necessarily standing in front.
It's it's standing side by side. It's standing behind and helping
people in empower themselves. So empowering others and and
fostering an environment that prioritises like collective
growth rather than one singular person.
So for me, leadership is all about empowering others and not
necessarily being seen. So my icons, I would say, would
have to be the people that remain unseen and the people
that do phenomenal work for the queer community and don't get
praise for it, but who deserve celebration.
Yeah, I think it's incredible answer.
Yeah, it is. There's people behind the scenes
that kind of make everything happen and there it's just just
as important if not more important than the people that
kind of appear. You know, I was thinking about
this, we were an event recently which you hosted and we were
talking about TV. We talked about representation
on screen. But actually I was thinking
about how important the representation behind the camera
is because those are the people that are going to be helping to
make decisions around editing, around production to ensure that
there is going a good representation.
So I completely agree with you, kind of celebrating those that
we see and those that we don't. Absolutely.
All have their place, should we say?
As well, 100% OK, but we are going to go back to a single
person. So who is one person you would
like to hear on this podcast? I would love to hear more from
Bimini. And I say that because I was on
Bimini's podcast and, and I've seen them interview just an
enormous amount of people and, and I, you know, I love their
work. I think they've done incredible,
an incredible job at uplifting lots of people's voices.
And they have done single episodes and they do talk about
themselves. But I would love to hear more.
I'd love to see them interviewed and more.
So I'm going to say Bimini. Yeah, that's a great choice.
I think they have an incredible, they're just one of the smartest
people that I've heard speak about so many such a wide
variety of issues as well that I think they make an incredible
guest. So yes, I will.
I will slide into their DMS and and we'll see if we can make it
happen. Final of our quit panic
questions. What is one word you would use
to describe your childhood? Tough, difficult, tough or
difficult? One of the two, it certainly
wasn't easy. And you know, that being said, I
don't feel like I'd be the person I am today without having
gone through those challenges. So it was tough.
I was born in Italy. English wasn't my first
language. My parents went through the
messiest separation known to the history of the human race like
this. Their separation and divorce was
something that lasted throughout my entire childhood.
And I really, really got caught in the crossfire of that and
subsequently don't have a relationship with a lot of a lot
of my family. But I just didn't have a lot of
love growing up, which is, I know, sad.
I mean, it's, it's a sad thing to acknowledge.
And I do acknowledge that. And I developed coping
mechanisms. I struggled with addiction
growing up. I did a lot of things to try and
find the love that I was missing in my life.
And I just became really unwell. And underneath all of that, I
was carrying this trans experience that I didn't even
know was aware of until much later in my life.
And I, I became a chameleon. I just, throughout my, my young
life, I was, I did everything I could to just try and fit in.
And I was bullied relentlessly. And I just, I really lost who I
was or my sense of self trying to, to get people to like me.
And I mean, I ended up in a rehab at the age of 20.
And that, that's how bad it got, right.
And then, and I had to really kind of work through my young
adult life to, to, to just become a stable human being.
And so it's by no means being smooth sailing.
And I feel like I've been untangling a lot of my childhood
throughout my adult life. And it's not necessarily
something people know about me. And it's something that I
actually brought into my career as a public speaker later, later
in life. And I very much wanted to be the
role model that I needed growing up.
And so that's, yeah, it was a struggle.
I've given you one word and a whole narrative.
No, it is super interesting because I do think it's, it's so
important to understand who we were when we were younger to
understand who we are today. So kind of getting that insight
into who people are and and kind of what shaped them.
I also think you said something there, which is I find super
interesting, which is around kind of role models and you
know, I'm a big believer and be the person you needed when you
were younger. So do you remember as a young
person who the first kind of LGBTQ plus person you became
aware of was? And I guess even more
specifically than that, if possible, like who was the first
trans person you became aware of and how that felt seeing that in
front of you? This is the thing, right?
And, and because my, my experience as a young person
was, I mean, I was so far detached from that part of my
experience, despite the fact that when I realised that I was
trans at the late age of 30, when I look back, I can, I can
see that it was always with me, right?
Especially in those early years that I just, you know, having
grown up in a way that really kind of detached me from that,
from that sense of who I was. And of course, you know, fed
into all the mental health struggles that I was dealing
with at the time. Like it, it course would have
made it a lot, lot worse. Unknowingly, you know, I was
this very anxious, very under confident, fearful child who was
desperate to be liked and just, I don't think I would have, I
would have been able to acknowledge that I was trans,
even though I did see Nadia and Big Brother like every other
millennial, you know, she was somebody that I, I remember
growing up and, and I just to be honest, and this goes to show,
you know, I was, I think I was 18 when she was in the Big
Brother house. I was 17.
She was just like the rest of the housemates.
You know, I remember just having this feeling she was this
household name. She was loved.
She was just, you know, she had this part of her experience.
And I remember that versus, you know, the world we're living in
today where there's all this kind of, you know, controversy
and like, like every that the the idea of being trans is just
met with so much resistance and and you know, and there's just
it's so it's very different to it was a very different time
back then. There was less representation,
but the representation that was there wasn't met with so much
hostility. And then so I do remember that,
but it didn't necessarily kind of the ball didn't drop at that
time for me, shall we say, like it.
It took it took meeting trans people later in life for me to
really acknowledge that part of myself.
Yeah, I think Nadia is such a fascinating person in kind of
the history of LGBTQ plus people.
I'd love to have her on the podcast because I think she she
does. I don't think she necessarily
gets her flowers because to your point, Big Brother's a
popularity contest and you have to and, and especially in those
early seasons in the UK, it was huge.
And so to win Big Brother, which Nadia did, you had to be the
most popular housemate. And then to to think about where
we've come to now, where there is such hostility towards the
LGBTQ bus community, but very specifically trans, non binary
and gender non conforming individuals.
It's kind of crazy to think that in many ways for someone like
NDA, life may have been easier in I guess it was the early
2000s than it is today. So it's kind of that really
sharp and clearview of how we have gone backwards rather than
forwards, which is really disappointing.
But yeah, I think she's incredible.
I do as well. And honestly, it was such a
moment last year getting to meet her because I just was like, Oh
my God, you know, you're a big part of just my my.
And I don't know where she went. She sort of just reset all of a
sudden I'm seeing her on Loose Women.
And but yeah, she's, she's a wonderful human being and she
really did pave the way for so many trans people in this
community. So yeah, she definitely deserves
celebration and she should definitely try and get her on
the podcast. Yeah, and I love that she
featured in in What it Feels like for a Girl.
She featured on the BBC show where they kind of showed the
characters seeing her win and kind of the impact they had.
So I do think she's getting kind of almost a renaissance of
attention, which I think she very hardly deserves.
Many of us kind of have a memory of that first spark of what I
would call kind of that inner quinness.
Do you remember when you did feel that in yourself and how it
felt to feel that in yourself? So like backtracking to when I
was really, really young in those early years, I remember
this feeling of being different and not knowing why.
I also remember feeling like I wanted to look like a boy.
I hung around with the other boys.
I had friends that would, you know, I'd always play the male
character and the night. And you know, there's pictures
of me wearing chainmail and it's, you know, of course
there's nothing wrong with with young girls doing that.
But for me it was much deeper than that, right?
It was, it was a sense of identity.
And I don't identify as a trans man.
I do identify as non binary, trans mask, non binary.
But I just remember this feeling back then.
But I learned to internalise. Well, I didn't internalise shame
around that part of my identity because it just wasn't
encouraged. So that was probably where I
felt a sense if I'm different. But then I started to feel like
I'm different, but there's something wrong with me.
I'm not allowed to do this. And and so I guess, you know,
understanding my queerness came a little bit later.
I, I realised that I was attracted to to girls when I was
in my early teens, but I made a promise to myself that I would
never tell anyone. And that was because at the time
I was being really badly bullied.
I was actually called a lesbian at school.
I was called a boy, you know, and not in a positive way.
And I didn't even know what the word lesbian meant.
So I'd be bullied for being a lesbian or looking like a boy
and behaving like a boy. And, and then to come to terms
with my sexuality, it I just, you know, I discarded it and I
tried to do everything I could not to be that.
And it's, you know, it's a sad thought to think back and think
that I held so much shame, whereas today I know there's
nothing wrong with that, you know?
And, and so it took me a long time to embrace my queerness and
to truly understand it. I mean, things have changed over
time. I understand that who we are
isn't fixed. Things can change actually,
which, you know, to me really blew my mind, like to understand
that about greatness. And I feel like there's so much
misunderstanding and I really had to understand what this
meant to me as a young person. And I remember seeing same
gender couples holding hands at college when I was 17.
And that kind of gave me permission to begin to explore
that within myself. And that's why I think that
representation is so important. Like we talk about
representation on TV and, and the audience that, you know, the
millions of people that, that see people on our screens and,
and the power of sharing our experiences as well, which is
what I do as a public speaker, right?
That prompted me in my own career.
I wanted to be that role model. And, you know, I truly believe
that our shared experiences are the key to another person's self
empowerment, You know, because they're able to, it gives people
permission, right? And that's, so I had to go
through that journey and, and many people go through that at a
young age, have did go through that at a longer age.
And so it's a bit, a bit a process for me.
But to kind of really untangle all that shame.
I mean, I'm, I'm still doing that today.
You know it's not, it's not an overnight process.
Yeah. And to your point is, you know,
everyone has that kind of unique journey that they go on.
And that is why I think representation is so important.
It's why I love doing this podcast because I think it's so
important to tell so many different versions of similar
stories, meaning different people go through it at either a
young age or some people go through it a much older age when
they kind of come to terms with how they feel.
So I think it is so important. But what I've admire about you
so much is just how authentic you come across.
Like I've spent time with you in person.
I've spent time now with you doing this podcast and every
interaction I have with you, I just feel like I'm getting the
real Jude. So when do you think you first
felt authentically yourself? And then when did you feel you
could just be your authentic self unapologetically and bring
it to everything you do? So it's a very broad question,
right? And I, I talked you through my
childhood and the young kid that I, I was that that fearful,
nervous child and. And, you know, I have lots of
tales I'm not going to share here, but I, I've been working
on, on, you know, we develop a mask throughout our lives.
You know, it's like a defence mechanism and, and I developed
these coping mechanisms. But I also, you know, I became a
problem kid. I did things to try and get
validation and, and to be liked by the people when I was growing
up. And I've spent a lot of my adult
life trying to take that mask off and transition was a part of
that. So going through, you know, my,
my physical change and changing my, my pronouns and my name.
And although I don't really see it as a change, I see it more as
alignment to my true self. So we talk about transition
being like about changing ourselves.
For me, it's actually about becoming my true self.
But that was just one part of the journey, one small part of
the journey. You know, now I'm dealing with
more of the nitty gritty impostor syndrome stuff like
near of being seen, not feeling enough, not feeling like I
belong, like I still get like little pangs when I, you know,
when something happens. And it makes me feel that way
because I developed this belief system around my, about myself
in those early years. That's ingrained within me.
And even though intellectually I know those things aren't true,
like within me, those beliefs is still there.
So when you ask that question, when we think about authenticity
in the queer community, often we're only referring to our
queerness, and we associate that word with just that part of our
identity. And I, for a long time, spoke
about my authenticity and in the context of my transness, But
it's just a small part of who I am.
It's not all of me. And so much of me has gotten
lost in making that part the most prominent part of my
identity. So I think for me, becoming
truly authentic today means exploring who I am beyond my
transness. It's exploring the parts of
myself where I had to like adapt or change to fit into the world
around me. But I'm neurodivergent, for
example. And one thing that I'm
acknowledging now at the moment is just how much I'm asked.
Like, I feel an enormous amount of anxiety.
I was hosting this event the other day and I, I, I could, I
could hear myself, right? I could hear my mind ask myself,
is this appropriate to say, if I crack a joke, how are other
people going to respond? Like I was monitoring my
thoughts and wondering, you know, what the social rules
were. And, and like, for me, I just, I
haven't really done a lot of work around that.
Like I, I put an impossible standards.
I, I, I set myself an impossible standard sometimes.
And, and I, I have imposter syndromes because I hear these
incredibly eloquent and, and academic and, you know,
activists out there. And I want to match that.
I, I think that there's an expectation and there often is
right when you position yourself as an advocate to, to present
yourself in a certain way, you've got to be really
politically informed. You have to be really articulate
and just not part of my, I mean, I wasn't, I was barely at school
growing. Like, that's my truth and reason
for that. Because, you know, I was
tackling homelessness. I was tackling addiction like,
and it's a valid part of my experience, but it doesn't make
me inadequate. And this is a belief system.
I'm, I'm beginning to understand that my strengths, for example,
has been, you know, I've got a very creative mind.
I've initiated some groundbreaking projects.
You know, I come up with ideas and I'm very good at executing
them, but I don't necessarily need to be this person that I
feel like I need to be. So when it comes to authenticity
that I'm not at the point yet where I feel like I can accept
and love myself in a way that I would like to.
But I'm on this part of my journey now.
And, you know, a lot of people turn to me for, you know, my, my
trans experience and it's kind of becoming a bit outdated for
me today. I'm like, I'm, I'm a point now
where I've got to focus on more, right?
I'm on this next stage of my journey.
And that's why I feel like so many of us, in fact, I've heard
it before where people say, look, all of us, we, many of us
transition, right? So many of us do.
But what we mean by that, I believe is that we learn to be a
true version of ourselves and we learn to be authentic.
And, and that's an individual journey.
And for trans people, yes, we have this side of our experience
that, you know, I'm worried that like it's, it's skin deep.
There's so much more to us and then what's on the outside.
Yeah, I agree. And it was actually, you know,
that event last week, it was one of the biggest takeaways I took.
I think it was, Zela said, you know, my transness is the
context, not the plot. And I just thought that was such
an interesting and an incredible way to put it is that yes, it's
important and yes, it is provides A context to who I am,
but it's not all that I am. And I think we all kind of go on
that journey to unpick that and to determine kind of who are we?
I also think it's incredible how many people do suffer from
imposter syndrome. I think it's a sign of people
that are pushing themselves into those uncomfortable
circumstances or those uncomfortable situations.
But actually it's our ability to do that that then helps us kind
of overcome that imposter syndrome and to kind of see
ourselves often the way other people already see us as the
expert or as the person that comes across incredibly well on
stage. We often don't see it in
ourselves. And one of the things we kind of
when we started talking about this conversation, we talked
about you as a young person and you've spoken about kind of the
trauma and homelessness and kind of mental health challenges.
But you've also said, and you said it earlier, you wouldn't
change any of that because it made you who you are today.
So how do you think all those experiences shaped kind of you
and the activism now that you do?
I mean, you know, I, I do look back and those experiences have
undoubtedly left the mark on me, right?
They still affect me today, but they've also strengthened me in
many ways. Like they shaped a level of
empathy and sensitivity that I have today.
That can either be my biggest weakness, but they can also be
my biggest strength. And it's depend, it's all
dependent on how I manage that. You know, I like many people
that have struggled with, with trauma or mental health, It's
about how we manage it. And for a long time, for the
last few years actually, I was stuck in this cycle.
I, I was, I came out of a relationship that really
affected me on the other side, you know, and, and you know,
I've had to, I've had to deal with that over the years, but a
lot came up for me over the last three years of that relationship
ending. And, and, you know, I got kind
of stuck in with a lot of activism work and a lot of my
projects. And, but I got stuck in this
cycle of, of just overworking, overdoing it, perhaps burying
myself and burning out. And when you're doing that and
you're nervous system, I mean, I think it's 2024, I counted like
four or five projects that I was doing, like campaigns and
initiatives and, and bearing in mind this isn't my job, by the
way, like, you know, projects that I don't get paid for as
well, but doing all these things and, and, and, and completely
running myself into the ground. And, and when you do that and
your, your, your nervous system gets shot to pieces, right?
Like I, I was living in a constant state of fight or
flight. I wasn't looking after myself.
I was, it was becoming increasingly hard to emotionally
regulate. I also have ADHD, you know, so
when you've got trauma on ADHD, you know, emotional regulation
is, is difficult in that sense. So when you're then running
yourself into the ground, it just became increasingly harder
to actually look after my mental health and then add pormodal
imbalances. And it's like, you know, because
I had a few of them as well. And so, yeah, it, it was it, I
was getting stuck in these cycles and, and then I'd burn
out and I'd crash out and I, you know, and then I'd try again to
like, take care of myself and do the good stuff.
And then I'd just get stuck in that cycle again.
It would happen again. It just happened over and over
again. And, and I've always maintained
that my goal has been to lead with love, right?
A lot of my campaigns and initiatives have been about
supporting community, amplifying messages of love and support for
trans for for trans people with the idea that, you know, by
amplifying love, it's just such a powerful way to drown out the
hate, right? And and so, but I've now
understood that, you know, by doing that it has to it has to
come from within first. You know, love is a powerful act
of resistance, especially against those who seek to divide
and disempower and arose our community.
But I've really had to understand what it means to
prioritise myself. Like it's been a hard lesson,
but now for me, like I, I make, I prioritise self-care, I
prioritise pacing myself. I prioritise forgiveness as well
alongside accountability. The two can exist
simultaneously, by the way, right?
Rather than getting, you know, allowing myself to get engulfed
by everything that's going on. You know, I'm, I don't really
watch the news at the moment. Like I'm staying away and I'm
putting in, I'm implementing boundaries just because of what
I do. And I just remind myself that
to, to, to be able to lead with love, I have to learn to embody
love. And in order to do that, I've
got to learn to love myself. And, and by embodying love, you
know, there's a ripple effect and, and that will philtre out
into all the work that I do. So I've just had to be very
strict with myself to take care of my recovery, to take care of
my body, to take care of my health myself 1st.
And I make no apologies for that.
I, you know, I learned, I learned very early on to self
neglect and abandoned myself, especially to be liked and loved
by others. So I've had to challenge myself
because there's been a part of me that still seeks validation,
that wants to seek validation from other people.
And so to challenge myself not to do that, I've kind of been
left with a little ball of like, who am I if I'm not an who am I?
If I'm not an activist? Who am I if I don't get on
social media, Who am I if like I don't have a relationship or
people around like who's me to me?
And it's been difficult, you know, but it's been, it's been
so healing, you know, to just allow those feelings to come up,
to cry them out and just to be like, just cried out.
The sense of worthlessness that I feel inside that I constantly
try and avoid by doing XY and Z. So, you know, there's been a lot
of learning for me. I mean, I'll be 40 next year, so
I feel like I'm getting a bit older and wiser and, well, yeah.
God, that was a lot. Well, I'm 40 this year, so so
I'll let you know how it feels, but I think it is so important.
And actually I spoke to Rico Jacob Chase on the podcast and
they talked about this as well, which is why it's so important
to have more than one person. You, it takes a group because at
times all of us will need to step back to take care of
ourselves. So you need to have those other
people who are able to kind of step forward and you need those
kind of those alliances and those groups of people that can
kind of come up. And obviously one of the things
you have spent a lot of time and you focused on was founding the
Trans Solidarity Alliance, which is just an incredible
organisation. For anyone who might be
unfamiliar, can you just give us a quick overview of the
organisation and what you guys do?
Absolutely Trans Plus Solidarity Alliance is a nonprofit
organisation that supports trans community organisations and
activists to work together with SYS allies to drive positive
change for trans people in the UK.
We set up at the end of 2023 and over the years we have
facilitated campaigns, parliamentary briefings, we have
a political engagement programme and our goal is to to advocate
for the human rights of trans people.
And we organised a mass lobby last June, which was the largest
LGBTQ political lobby event in UK history actually, which was
incredible. We've also LED various
campaigns, the trans youth love campaign, also Trans Secret
Santa UK as well. So we do a lot and, and I've
just, I am so blown away by how much it's grown over the years
and, and the team as well. That works so unbelievably hard
is all the work that we've done is in our own time and and yeah,
I'm I'm just so very proud of of our organisation.
Yeah, you should be. And we'll include a.
Link in the podcast description. So if anyone wants to check it
out, they can. I think it's so important.
You know, it's interesting because you know, the trans
experience very specifically has become very political
unfortunately recently. And obviously that's some of the
work that you all do. And I think it's so important
that there are trans and non binary people represented in
that conversation. We think about the the, you
know, the terrible Supreme Court ruling that happened in 2025.
And from my understanding, there wasn't a single trans or non
binary person included in that work that led up to that
decision. So how's that experience for you
being of crossing into that political and I guess policy
space? I mean, it's been.
Such a journey for me because I started to get involved in
community grassroots activism in the first year of my transition.
You know, I was very, I was like 6 months into realising that I
was trans and I made part of a community group in Brighton and,
and it just kind of happened right where I was involved with
organising, helping organise protests and being involved with
being almost at the front line of a lot of a lot of direct
action stuff. So it was very different to what
I, the stuff that I do today and, and it taught me a lot.
Actually, I, I learned a lot from other people.
We were behind a lot of different campaigns that that
kind of exploded solidarity campaigns.
And there was the hashtag L with the T movement that then gave
birth to like or, or inspired, shall we say, other hashtag with
the T movement. So to be kind of in the central
that with, with the community and then having all of that
experience over the years and, and, and seeing that you could
inspire solidarity, you know, you could create a hashtag and,
and you could create a movement and, and it gave something for
allies to stand behind and empowered them was a really
powerful thing to experience. And it in, over the years, I
kind of recognised that actually the power was with our allies
that for nought .5% of, of the UK population or under 1% of the
global population, trans people just simply could not fight for
their own rights alone. Like it's just not, it would
never happen, right? We, we need allies.
So the idea of a trans solidarity alliance actually
came to me in 2019, just before COVID.
And the idea would be to bring organisations together to talk
about how we were going to, what we were going to do, right.
And you know, I often think of that phrase, we are stronger
together. We really, really are.
And of course COVID happened and nothing went ahead.
And I, we almost ended up going in a completely different
direction with my own career. And it wasn't until the end of
2023 where the thought came. I was seeing what was going on
and I was noticing that, you know, the, there was the attack
on trans rights was just, you know, it was getting, things
were getting worse and worse. And I just thought, you know,
perhaps I should revive this idea that actually we, there was
space for another organisation. And, and so I, I just, you know,
I launched the idea. I've brought some people
together who I knew could, could help.
So I approached people who worked in political spaces, who
had lobbying experience and brought those individuals
together. And like I said, the Trans
Solidarity Alliance has just grown into such an incredible
team. We all bring different skills to
the table. I think that's really important
to say. Like I, you know, I didn't
necessarily, I, I'm not a political expert, never really
have been. I, I've learned so much along
the way, but we have those people within the organisation
and, and, but then we have people with so many different
skills and I've learned so much about working as a collective
and how when you work with people with different skills,
you just, you add more, right. And, and I think that that's why
we worked well together. We facilitated the mass lobby
And, and that was just, I mean, what the team managed to pull
together was I, I, it's was incredible.
And, and you know, it was such a historic moment as well.
And I had really have to take your credit to such a hard
working team at TSA because that must all be made international
headlines. It was incredible, you know, so
we've got an incredible team. It did feel intimidating
stepping into that space, you know, But as you know, we've
supported. 1. Another we're all friends, we
we've got such a nice relationship and and there's,
you know, we don't really have a hierarchy, which I really like
as well. You know, we, we, we operate as
that collective and I believe that's why we operate very well.
But, but you're right, as you said, with regards to trans
voices not being heard, that's something that we do, right?
So we, we platform trans voices in parliament and we actually
hosted the first all trans panel in parliament where we had a
whole panel of trans people talking on trans youth and
educate in education. And, and we've tried to continue
that work where trans voices are prioritised in those spaces and
they are heard and, and, and that's so important.
Yeah, it is so incredibly important.
Showing up, having voices of people who have lived
experiences for anything that the government might be
considering or looking at. I think government such an
important part of it. But then I also think a lot
about just the general population.
And one of the ways I think we can reach the general population
is through visibility, representation and just
normalising all aspects of the community, the LGBT community
and just people as a whole. And one of the ways we do that
is obviously through things like media campaigns.
And you were the first non binary face of Harrods H Beauty.
What did that mean to you? How did it come about and what
did it signal do you think, to the media and advertising
industry at the time about where we were going?
I mean it. Honestly that the Harrods beauty
campaign was one of the best and most pivotal moments of my
entire life. And I often talk about it even
though it was forward or something years ago.
And I was actually I believe the first trans person as well to be
the a face for Harrods to be involved, to be part of the
Harrods campaign, let alone just H beauty.
So trans and non binary as well. It was incredible.
Like I never in my wildest dreams could I have ever have
imagined if I could tell my young self, oh, by the way,
you're going to be in a Harrods campaign.
I would just never have believed, you know, I'm
relentlessly bullied for how I looked when I was at school.
So it was an incredibly empowering experience for me
because of just that as well to, to be involved with that.
And you know, I was, I was 3033 years old.
It was the first summer after my top surgery.
And so I was at a point in my transition where I was really
coming into myself and finally feeling like in my skin and
happy and, and, and, and it was actually the the first lockdown
and this was summer of 2020 where so many of us had, you
know, it was an awful time for so many.
But quite honestly, I had an opportunity to really connect
with myself that summer and I actually had a really nice
summer. And, and it just gave me that
chance. But I think I just very, I very
naturally started to share my experience online a little bit
more, which as a speaker, I'm usually used to going into, I
was going more into schools at that time to share that part of
my experience. So I was doing it more online.
And I believe that's what attracted the casting agent.
But I, I got this DM, which I thought was spam, as you do in
casting for a House campaign. Yeah, sure.
Whatever. Like you know, it's blog.
Well, I thought it was a scam. You know, I looked up the
casting agent. I was like, oh, that's the
biggest casting agent in the world.
OK, maybe it's legit. And it was just what I was
actually in Italy staying with my mum because I put my stuff in
storage, couldn't pay the rent. It was a lockdown, right?
I was, you know, in a bit of a sticky situation.
And I, yeah, I was in Italy and I was trying to just looking
after myself and in comes this thing and I doing, you know,
the, the self tape I'd like was sticking this my, my iPhone to
the window. So I was getting good.
It's like getting the tape. And I spent all day trying to
get it right. And then, you know, then I got a
WhatsApp message within a couple of weeks telling me that I got
it. And I was like, what?
And that they were going to fly me back to England.
I mean, here's me where I've got my stuff in storage.
And it's like, and they flew me back to do the the commercial.
And it was just, it was so amazing.
Like I'd never done a shoot in my life ever.
Right. I know I'd done one shoot.
Tell her that I'd done one shoot before with the photographer
just for like some headshots that like, and then all of a
sudden, you know, I'm getting recorded.
And like, I had to do this whole commercial and they, you know,
and, and it just, yeah, apparently it was everywhere.
And, and I remember them asking me, they were like, look,
everybody that's involved in this campaign talks about their
beauty, you know, and it was like, my beauty is my art or my
beauty is, you know, whatever. And, and what, So what is yours?
And, and I remember thinking like my beauty is being myself.
And, and that became my, my sort of phrase for the commercial.
And, and actually it's, it's been my motto really.
And, and it's, it's not about external beauty.
I just want to say that it's not about like necessarily just my
transition and, and the way that I looked it, it was about
finding self acceptance. It was about starting to find
that sense of, of, of pride and love for myself that I'd never
felt. That's what my beauty is being
myself really means to me. And it's really important for me
to say that because it's, you know, as I'm going on this
journey, I continue to, to, to try and, you know, try and, and
access that sense of finding beauty from within rather than
to look outside of myself. And, and it's an ongoing journey
for me, but it was honestly, it was life changing.
And my, my career just just just went in a completely different
direction. It's like the lockdown eased and
all of a sudden I've got an ageing all of a sudden, you
know, I was in vogue that year as well, Vogue Italia
specifically. And, and I'm doing, you know,
castings and then I was in glow up and I was doing all these
different bits and pieces here and there and it was so much
fun. And, you know, the reason that I
really enjoyed the panel with Della Morgan and Zia Glasson the
other night and talking about representation is because I
really do believe in it. So I, I do, I, I wanted to do
that too, right? I was so passionate about, you
know, being that person for, you know, trans youth that, that
were like me who thought it was never possible to be who you are
or that you would never get there.
And I, I really wanted to show them that, you know, it's, it's
never too late, you know, ever. And, and, and actually, sorry,
never too late. They're young, let's say that.
Well, yeah, it's never too late to be who you are and that and
that even if they're not themselves right now, you know
that one day they'll get a chance.
You know, it it it will happen and and you just have to keep
going. So yeah, it's that was I, I'd
love to do more stuff like that. I've just, I've got, I've gotten
very like pigeonholed in in my activism nowadays, so I do less
of that, unfortunately. It's so important though, and I.
Think there was such an interesting time in kind of the
early twenty 20s where we were seeing really we were seeing
improvement anyway from from my perspective of representation in
things like advertising campaigns and the way and the
way the brands were working with people.
It does feel like we've now seen an unfortunate shift again.
I think often that is kind of pinpointed to the Dillon
Mulvaney campaign with Bud Light and, and the kind of the
backlash that happened on both sides of the equation there.
And we've seen brands kind of pull away from it.
I have a very strong opinion on this, that this kind of backlash
that people think is happening is kind of perceived, not
reality. Boots here in the UK did an
incredible 2024 Christmas campaign where they featured non
binary and trans individuals and there was a lot of quote unquote
backlash online. Look at their sales figures.
It didn't impact it at all. They had the same sales, if not
better sales than they would have during the kind of
Christmas period. So I am a strong believer that
it's perceived and we just need to be louder than the backlash.
So when you think about the fact that there are brand fewer
brands kind of showing up for the LGBTQ plus community in the
kind of the bold ways that Harrods did, what advice I
guess, would you offer to those brands who want to engage with
the community, who want to have that visibility, but that are
just nervous given the current climate if they're nervous?
Hire a consultant, hire an educator, hire someone like me
to come in and to educate the team.
Because I know there's a lot of fear.
And I know that because I work most of the organisations that I
work with, we talk about the fear, right?
And, and, and them not knowing how to get, get it right and
wanting to get it right, but also the fear of, of what might
happen if they do. And, and just kind of, I know
that a lot of brands just kind of, I don't want to say most,
but I know there are brands out there that just want, kind of
want to avoid that little headache.
You know, they just think they might think let's just kind of
it's not, I'm not anti trans, I'm not opposed to it, but let's
just not because it's easier not to, because trans people are
just, you know, small minorities.
So let's just you know, but every time you do that, you're
feeding it into the to to the to the to the issue, to the problem
that is just so much greater than just the attack on the
trans community is it is an attack on human rights and and
what we're seeing around the world, right?
It's part the same issue and, and, and it's important to
recognise that the same movement that is attempting to roll back
LGBTQ plus rights is the very same movement that is seeking to
erode women's rights. Like we must understand that and
we cannot afford to succumb to the pressure or retreat when if
you retreat into silence and and you begin to do that, you'll get
like more will come believe you me.
And actually the most powerful thing you can do is to ensure
that you represent all people, particularly those that are more
marginalised, because brands can have real influence, you know,
and when that comes, you know, when when 1 brand does that
again, it gives permission for another brand to do the same.
But if we work together, you know, that kind of influence has
the ability to create real change, you know, meaningful
change. And I understand that that feels
like that includes risk. But I mean, you know, that's the
world we're living in today. But I believe that the more
organisations that stand firm, the harder it becomes to isolate
and silence any one of them. You know, and the closer and
closer we're going to move towards lasting progress.
Actually, the power is within, you know, the media is within,
you know, brand campaigns, It's within, you know, the kind of
platforms that have wider reach. When we begin to humanise trans
people like myself, which, you know, anyone would watch me and
think, oh, just like, you know, my friend, like, and I get this
all the time that people are shocked.
They're almost shocked that I'm just like regular, you know, and
I'm like, I barely even wear colour.
I think this is, I mean, I, you know, I don't wear rainbow like
I'm not, but that's because, you know, we exist in, in, in all
our forms, like, in all our, like, we're just people like
everybody else, right? And, and so, but even the people
that do wear rainbows, like we just, we're human beings are
diverse by nature, right? And, and, and we're all
different. And so it doesn't surprise me
when you say that there was no difference in, in boot sales.
In fact, they did better because by by focusing on diversity,
we're focusing on all people, all people, not just about one
group. Being inclusive isn't just about
including, we're including lots of groups.
And all of those groups make up the human rights like we're
diversifying nature and, and inclusivity is, is just a part
of bringing everyone to the table, right?
And it's just and we shouldn't, and this is another thing, you
know, I say, look at me, but also we shouldn't have to
assimilate, right? I shouldn't have to look like a
regular person. We should be embraced for who we
are. And one of the things that I
love that Ella said was that she wants to see diversity in in in
all it's we want to see transfer older trans people represented,
you know, as well. Like it's, there's this
expectation you have to kind of like meet a certain kind of
standards in order to be accepted by the sys community
and actually know, like, why should that be?
And, and actually we need to be presented across the board.
Like there should be more representation of more people.
So change has never been made by playing it safe.
It's been made when people like brands choose to show up with
courage, choose to show up with clarity and make a commitment to
do the right thing even when the current climate feels really
uncomfortable. Yeah, I agree.
I I've. Spoken to many as CMO and said
kind of real ally ship is showing up even when it's
slightly inconvenient to do so there is a little bit of risk.
We recognise that risk. But that's why it actually
brings me back to something we were talking about right at the
start, which is it's why it's so important to have representation
on both sides of the camera. Because if you have
representation internally at your company of representation
on your boards and on your leadership teams, I believe
you're much more likely to make decisions that are more diverse,
that are more inclusive because you have that within yourselves
as well. So I think it's that kind of
that duality of it that is really important both in front
of the camera and behind the scenes because visibility can
change lives. And I do genuinely believe that.
And obviously you do such incredible work from a
visibility, visibility perspective, but as we've also
touched on, it can expose you to scrutiny and it can expose you
to quote unquote trolls online. So how do you kind of navigate
that side of things as someone who both sits publicly at the
intersection of activism and media and fashion and, and, and
everything else in between? Yeah.
And I'd say the scrutiny. Extends beyond just the trolls.
You know you know you're. We're often held to a standard
and you know, I will often hear more scrutiny and feedback in
the negative sense that sometimes, you know, otherwise.
And maybe that just comes from this kind of personal
expectation as well. I don't know.
But of course, yes, there is a lot of scrutiny and it's of
course, it's a tough world out there, particularly online, I
have to say. And there's been moments where I
have actually been, you know, really badly trolled and it's
been especially in with one singular post has been a lot,
you know, especially with regards to my non binary
identity and people completely, you know, invalidating it or
mocking me. And, you know, and it's really
important to me. And as much as I feel very proud
of that part of my identity, it still takes its toll.
But you know, I, I've learned just to not give trolls my time.
Like I, I have a very strict delete and block policy where if
I see one word that is remotely negative, it's just out.
I don't even register it. And I certainly don't, I don't
argue with people online. I don't give my time trying to
talk them round. I do enough in my work to, to
educate and engage and attempt to empower people in that way.
I, I just don't feel the need to do it online.
And obviously looking after my physical and mental and
spiritual health is, is, is my priority today.
And you know, it's interesting because I've spoken about these
different facets of my career. And I guess there's been times
where I've sort of been a bit more visible and, and I've had
brand collaborations and I've done more of that work and, and,
and nowadays I've kind of been pushed into the direction of, of
activism a bit more. And I say push because it, it
was never my intention to kind of just go off in One Direction
more than another. Actually really, really enjoyed
the work that I did with brands. And actually when I think of
this year, maybe it's something that I can focus a bit more on
because it can be really draining.
You know, it can be a lot. And in fact, the last, the last
project I worked on, which I actually love is the Trans
Secret Santa UK initiative where we raise lots of money and send
gifts to transit across the country.
And, and, and, but I was exhausted and, and I've had to
really sort of step back and have a think about, you know,
how I'm going to take care of myself and, and how I want to
kind of moving to 2026 because yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot.
It's draining. It's, you know, anxiety
inducing, you know, someone that's been live their life
fearing what people think, which I want to say.
But on the flip side, I kind of want to challenge at the same
time, because, you know, it, it really doesn't matter.
Like I, I've got to a stage shower.
I just think, you know, the most important person is me.
And, and the work's great, right?
But like, I don't need to pay so much attention to what people
think, particularly when do I even like those people?
Like, do you know what I mean? Like why and why am I giving all
my attention to anti trans people like as well?
I just think, you know what? I'm more effective when I focus
on a on the solution. Like I'm I'm a solutions person.
I come, I think, OK, so this is happening.
Let's do this, this is happening.
Let's focus on love and solidarity.
And it, it not just because it's needed, because it also helps me
when I'm sucked into, and I have been, I've been sucked into all
the negativity and I, I, I go down like a, a rabbit hole and I
doom scroll and I get stuck and it and I, and my mental health
combos and then I'm no good to anyone.
And actually, sometimes when I'm in that, it can alienate and
it's, it's valid because it's hard not to nowadays.
The hate is so loud, right? It's just everywhere.
And so to say, I'll just ignore it.
That's not what I'm saying. But what I have learned is that
I have to learn to prioritise my well-being, particularly someone
with, you know, history of mental health and addiction
challenges. So this is how I'm dealing with
it and it's, it's just been a process of learning, you know,
year in, year out and, and getting to a stage now where she
probably feels stronger than ever, which is amazing.
Although like I, I'm not, I barely worked, you know, it's
like works, you know, and, and, but it's been necessary for me
some time out and to really think about that.
But yeah, I don't know if that's answered your question.
I did and I think it is so. Important that we do focus on
ourselves when we need to actually, arguably at all times,
we should be focused on ourselves, right?
If we if we if we are crumbling or if we're not at our best, we
can't do our best work and we can't bring kind of all the all
the work that we need to bring to to bear.
And I think what's interesting is this kind of journey we've
gone on on this podcast. We started this podcast talking
about you as a young as your younger self.
So I'd love to ask you if you could give your younger self one
piece of advice, what would it be?
And would it be different if I just said, what advice would you
give to a young LGBTQ plus person today in 2026?
So I actually wrote. A letter to my young trans self
recently and and it was a part of the trans Secret Santa
project. We printed them out actually and
sent them out to 900 kids. But I wrote a whole letter to
myself and, and I was trying to communicate to those young
people. And one of the things that I
always say is this, this idea of holding on.
Because actually it was something that I remember just
thinking to myself when I was young, things were really
intense and really hard and really difficult.
And there were times where I just, I thought that I wasn't
going to make it. And actually, not to get
entirely personal, but there were times that I almost didn't,
right. And, and there were some really
extreme consequences to, to some, some of unfortunately
myself, destructive behaviours, but I luckily pulled through.
And I, I just want to say this to, to young people, you know,
if it's, if it's hard, like just hold on to a sense that it, it
can and will get better if you do like, and I don't for a
minute want to assume what anyone's life is like, but I
just know how hard it was for me growing up.
And I know that, you know, I have got to a place now where,
you know, it is better. Yeah.
I'm, I'm not free from some of the hardships that I went
through, but it's become like they, they, you know, some of
that has strengthened me to a point that I've, you know,
become, this is the thing we talk about resilience, about
become so resilient. But you know, that word can be
really exhausting. And I, I just want, I just want,
I want young people to know that that life can get easier if you
hold on. And, and I would have said
something similar, I would say something similar to, to a young
LGBTQ person, even if it's not right now, one day you'll get
the chance to be who you truly are.
And so just never give up. Ever.
Yeah, that's probably the most important message we can give to
people. Don't give up.
And then there is a path to it being better.
So I really appreciate that and I know others will.
Jude, thank you so much for being on Quid Talker with me.
This has been such an incredible conversation, such an
interesting conversation. But also I've admired you for a
long time and I've just admired the work you do, the activism
you do, the visibility you bring, the your ability to bring
people together. We talked a lot about the event
that happened last week in London.
Your ability to bring the community together is so
important because we do all need each other now more than ever.
So more than anything, I just want to say a massive thank you
for everything you do for the entire LGBTQ plus community.
Thank you so much, Ben. Thank you for.
Having me.