1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,840 Yes, Do you need it? Sometimes. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,200 Sometimes no. Yeah, they like listening. 3 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:06,800 Yeah, sometimes I like to hear it. 4 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:07,440 They'll. Read. 5 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,960 They'll read. The stream, you know? 6 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:14,640 Yeah, yeah, I've gotten piss mugged before, you know, I wrote 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,480 a thread about it. Real ones, no. 8 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,080 Really. Yeah, wow, like when someone 9 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:22,040 pisses next to you and they have like a bigger stream. 10 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:23,960 Oh, I'm sure. It's pretty brutal. 11 00:00:51,260 --> 00:00:52,500 Welcome back to posting through it. 12 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:54,220 I'm Jared. And I'm Mike. 13 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,940 Patreon shout out off the top. We've got 1 today in the 14 00:00:57,940 --> 00:01:02,540 platinum tier. Please read Worm by wild Bo. 15 00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:06,980 Is the username OK? I guess it's a book, I don't 16 00:01:06,980 --> 00:01:10,340 know. Yeah, let's do it and quick plug 17 00:01:10,780 --> 00:01:14,220 my article. Who the fuck are these men? 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,720 Which sounds like a posting through it title, which I 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,840 didn't. I didn't make the title, 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,400 actually. Jared this, the editor does 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,640 that. And Mother Jones this. 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,720 This spring issue of Mother Jones is out, and there's a 23 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:31,080 digital copy out now, and you can learn all about all the 24 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,800 radical right activity that has been brewing in Idaho since 25 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:38,760 Trump's resurgence. There will be a link to that in 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,960 the description. The other link in the 27 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:45,120 description from us is this week's listener Submitted Music. 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,680 This is from Nathaniel S who listens to posting through it, 29 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,240 but it's also in a band called Loon, the band from their band 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,280 camp. They describe themselves as 31 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,680 plain quote twanged up rock'n'roll that is inspired by 32 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,320 punk rock and Hard Knocks. So the transition music you'll 33 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,880 hear today is their track called Indiana. 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:13,520 Yeah, and the other thing to plug is in on April 11th in 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,560 Washington, DC at Politics and Prose. 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,360 You can we'll, we'll put a link to this in the description too, 37 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:19,560 right, Jared? Oh yeah. 38 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,600 I am doing a book event for Strange people on the Hill, my 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,320 first book, which comes out on April 7th. 40 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,640 And I believe if you go to Head Chat's website, you can still 41 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:34,960 get a discount of 20% with this with the code Strange 20. 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,640 And we are, we are thinking about possibly doing some 43 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:46,000 posting through it live stuff or something, some event in 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,600 connection with that. So if you are anywhere near the 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,560 Washington, DC area, you can potentially start thinking about 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,920 how you can be there that Saturday and get to know us. 47 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,400 We'll be books maxing. Oh no. 48 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,040 Yeah. Oh shit. 49 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,120 Well, you already know what this about. 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,720 Probably also probably when you clicked on the on the 51 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,240 description. Jared has already. 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,960 He hasn't done it yet but has created some beautiful image 53 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:13,800 that lets you know this is about looks maxing. 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Yeah, today we're going to, somewhat reluctantly, I'm being 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,800 honest, talk about looks, Maxing. 56 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,120 We thought we might cover something else this week, but I 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,000 kind of feel like our hands have been forced, you know? 58 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:32,040 Mainstream media outlets are taking a sudden interest in one 59 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,920 Looks Maxine influencer in particular. 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,280 His name is Brayden Peters, but he's better known by his online 61 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,520 handle Clavicular. Lots of people are adopting the 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,520 Looks, Maxine rhetoric, slang, lingo, whatever you want to call 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,120 it, sometimes ironically and sometimes in a way where it's 64 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,720 kind of hard to tell. Most of the people who are 65 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,440 writing and analyzing this looks maxing trend right now are men, 66 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,400 full stop. Our guest today, Annie Kelly, is 67 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,240 a researcher of online trends related to misogyny, conspiracy 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,120 theories of far right. And she is not a man and we 69 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,280 really wanted her perspective for that reason. 70 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,680 Clavicular is essentially the Michael Jordan of looks Maxing. 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,800 He represents pockets of men online on places like TikTok and 72 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,080 Instagram, as well as these specialized forums that are 73 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,200 hyper obsessed with their physical appearance, 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,840 particularly their their face. And also we yeah, their body 75 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,680 too, like weight lifting, potentially with steroids, 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,600 etcetera. Yeah, they obsessed. 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,520 So for the geometry of their physiques in the minutiae of 78 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,880 their bodies, you know, thinking they can sum it down into 79 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,720 mathematic formulas to derive an idealized beauty standard. 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,360 How symmetrical is your face? How wide are your shoulders 81 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,680 compared to your waist? How strong is your jawline? 82 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,640 There's a softer side to these discussions, too, you know, 83 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,400 mental. In these spaces, we'll talk 84 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,800 about skin care, diets, their workouts, but there's also a 85 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,160 darker and harder side where men, like you said, Mike, are 86 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,760 encouraging people to use steroids, adopt disordered 87 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,560 eating habits, seek out surgical procedures. 88 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,720 Some of them even claim to hit themselves in the face with 89 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:31,640 hammers, AKA bone smashing, in the hopes that their jaws will 90 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,640 grow back stronger and fuller. You know if they are doing that. 91 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,840 The audience for this content by all appearances, seems to be 92 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:44,600 male, of course, but they're also alarmingly young and white, 93 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,320 which is why critics associated with eugenics. 94 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,920 Some of the content pushed around in these specific in 95 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,240 these spaces specifically targets teenage boys as they're 96 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,320 developing through puberty. Not good. 97 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,680 By the way, many of the influencers in this movement are 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,640 younger too. Clavicular is just 20 years old. 99 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,920 He's a, he's a, he's a mere pup. So what about Clavicular? 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,680 He's having a moment right now, but it's still debatable how big 101 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:17,640 his reaches beyond this really loud wall of traditional and 102 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,080 social media hype. And, you know, we kind of wonder 103 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:26,080 how long this will, how long this can last. 104 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,080 Earlier this month, The New York Times published a profile that 105 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,440 called him the Quote UN Quote First star born out of the looks 106 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,240 Maxine community online. Mike really hated this article. 107 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,080 You want to explain why? Jared, you know, I don't even 108 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,160 think I mentioned this to you before, but actually it wasn't 109 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,040 just me. You hated it. 110 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,040 I taught this because I'm, because I, I teach journalism 111 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,720 students and, and my, my classes happens to be young women, like 112 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,360 they're like all 1819 and I, they're doing their next 113 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,560 assignment is a profile. So I was like, well, let's look 114 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,600 at all kinds of profiles and have them look at this. 115 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,720 I was, I was surprised to find that they all had a very similar 116 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,680 reaction to me, which is why is this in the New York Times? 117 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,360 Why is what they they wanted to know? 118 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,720 And they're and they're of Clavicular's age. 119 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,960 So they're just like, I don't understand why this is in the 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,080 New York Times. And I don't think this was very 121 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,120 clearly established in the story. 122 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,600 Joe Bernstein wrote it and Joe has wrote some very impactful 123 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,200 stories on the far right, one of which is about Sam Hyde. 124 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,720 The comedian was associated with the neo Nazi movement and other 125 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,040 things. And you know, he became a target 126 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,280 of a lot of bullying online bullying from from far right 127 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,640 extremists and things like that. And you know, I will tell you 128 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,920 he's not going to be getting very much bullying from this 129 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,240 because maybe he is, I don't know, to be clear. 130 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,080 But like, I don't think he would get it the same way he did for 131 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,400 the stories that he wrote back in the day early on and 132 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,600 BuzzFeed, because it doesn't really throw a punch at all. 133 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,200 And that is what concerns me. The tone is written to me like 134 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,560 it was it's like 1994 and you're you're profiling Trend Reznor of 135 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,640 Nine Inch Nails. This is the kind of thing that 136 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,640 takes Clavicular from being a sort of freak fringe Internet 137 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,440 celebrity into kind of mega stardom with glossy photos and 138 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,280 so forth. The other thing it doesn't do 139 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,360 Jared for me is he doesn't, he doesn't dig up any dirt on 140 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,840 Clavicular. Clavicular presumably had no 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,720 anxiety about this coming out. He doesn't. 142 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,680 He doesn't talk to like anybody really from his high school, or 143 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,120 at least they're not profiled who could tell, like what he was 144 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,559 like before he became clavicular and stuff like that. 145 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,159 We don't hear about his parents who basically fought through, 146 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,039 who allegedly gave up on trying to stop him from this. 147 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,960 What did they think of this? Because if it were my son, I 148 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,600 would be pretty disgusted. So yeah, this one really 149 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,560 bothered me because I don't think clavicular warrants this 150 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,480 kind of treatment. But this particular show is 151 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,880 about criticism. Ours, you know, we are, we are 152 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,280 critical as well as reporting. And I think it's important to 153 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,760 look with a critical eye on why everyone is talking about this, 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,280 not only on social media but also in apparently in 155 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,760 traditional media as well. We called out the New York Times 156 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,200 story, but it's not alone. Clavicular has also been 157 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,640 featured by GQ. He's appeared on Pierce Morgan's 158 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,160 program, The Adam Friedland Show recently, and others. 159 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,160 He's reportedly making more than $100,000 a month. 160 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,600 That's $1.2 million a year, folks. 161 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,120 A little quick math there. Live streaming on a platform 162 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,400 called Kik. He walked in New York Fashion 163 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,760 Week and he's steadily earning fans among right wing social 164 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,080 media personalities like Brett Cooper. 165 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,320 She flew to New York City to watch him in that Fashion Week 166 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,560 show. That's kind of an insane life 167 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,600 for a 20 year old to lead. I don't know what you were doing 168 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,440 at 20. I was. 169 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:02,040 I was probably stoned and seeing movies at the Angelica and Film 170 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,680 Forum like I was at NYU, so that's what I remember. 171 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:09,040 Yeah, people who know me in real life listen to this show. 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,480 I'm not going to talk about what I was up to when I was 20. 173 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,840 If you've been in line the last month or two, you've you've seen 174 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,440 too much of this, this fucking content on your face and 175 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,280 everybody is talking in the looks, maxing slang and it's 176 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,080 it's completely outlandish and over the top and people are 177 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,600 doing it for a cheap laugh. I don't know, I'm not 178 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,160 particularly crazy about the trend. 179 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,760 Not I'm not. I'm not looks maxing, but just 180 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,840 ironic looks maxing posting. I don't like taking their their 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,600 culture and making it our costume, whatever you would say. 182 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,880 Yeah. It's loaded with slang terms and 183 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,800 weird personalities that some of which we'll probably get into 184 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,080 with Annie. Yeah, You know, I think the 185 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:57,120 point we want to make on this episode is that this hyper 186 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,760 curated facade, and I mean that in like a extremely literal 187 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,240 sense, we're talking about looks maxing, right? 188 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:09,080 This this pursuit of aesthetic perfection in your bodily 189 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,720 appearance is outlandish. It's cartoonish. 190 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,520 It's attention grabbing, you know, just by how absurd it is. 191 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,560 But beneath the surface is a political and social movement 192 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:46,840 that's actually quite sinister. Joining the show, we have Annie 193 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,440 Kelly, an award-winning journalist and researcher who 194 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,800 covers digital culture related to topics like anti feminism, 195 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,360 conspiracy theories and the far right. 196 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,880 She is the UK correspondent for the QAA podcast, so if we have 197 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,280 crossover listeners, you may have heard her there. 198 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,760 And he has a new podcast with QAA that series worth checking 199 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,040 out called Truly Traply Deeply. We're excited to have her on 200 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,480 today to talk about Look Maxing. Looks Maxing. 201 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,680 It's an honor to be invited. Thank you so much for having me. 202 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,960 What prompted this episode is all of this media interest in 203 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,400 looks Maxine, specifically Clavicular, which is like the 204 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,280 stand out influencer of this space. 205 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,360 But this has been around for years and years, right? 206 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,120 The New York Times did a big glossy profile of Clavicular. 207 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,200 But you know, here's earlier they had done a piece about 208 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,440 looks Maxine as an online movement. 209 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,240 So I you know, where does this come from? 210 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:54,480 How deep is that history? Yeah. 211 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,160 I mean, I have been finding a lot of the coverage actually of 212 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,760 clavicular a little bit shallow. And maybe this is unfair because 213 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,400 maybe I'm expecting kind of a genealogy of manosphere 214 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,560 subcultures go stretching back further than a journalist 215 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,400 writing a 1500 word piece can really justify. 216 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,160 Having said that, I think it's very important to understand the 217 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,000 ideology because looks maxing and the looks maxing subculture 218 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:25,640 is not just trying to make yourself look good to attract 219 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,600 women and to understand that, I think we do need to go back to 220 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,400 where it starts, which is with pickup artists in early 221 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,640 noughties online culture. These were some of the earliest 222 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,760 Internet boards essentially kind of dedicated to swapping tips 223 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,320 and strategies for chatting up women. 224 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,120 A little bit of lore about myself was I basically stumbled 225 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,000 across this stuff when I was in my early teens because I wanted 226 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,240 to know what dating would be like. 227 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,360 So I have first hand experience of these spaces and I don't want 228 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,880 to sound like I'm justifying them because obviously they were 229 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,920 they were cesspools of misogyny back then. 230 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,280 But I think if you go back compared to what the manosphere 231 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,760 looks like now, it was very mild in comparison. 232 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,480 A site that was born out of this space though, that had a 233 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,280 grievance with the pickup artist sphere was called Pickup Artist 234 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,760 Hate. And this was essentially a site 235 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:28,600 for users who had tried the pickup artist techniques and had 236 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,080 found that they were lacking in some way, that they they didn't 237 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,360 work, they weren't suddenly becoming irresistible to women 238 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,800 overnight. You mean nagging is there? 239 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:38,480 Is it? Do you? 240 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,040 Mean nagging doesn't work with girls when you walk up. 241 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,320 To a girl and say in a bar you. Mean a woman in a bar and you're 242 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,560 like you're like your nose is a little funny you mean she's 243 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,760 surprisingly she doesn't like to go home with you that's. 244 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,240 So weird. I wouldn't. 245 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,400 That's not that's not intuitive at all. 246 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,240 Who would? I guess approaching romance like 247 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,720 a chess game that you have a cheat code for would not pan 248 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,120 out. Yeah. 249 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,040 I mean, I don't think the cruel fact of a lot of pick up artist 250 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,840 tricks is many of them will work if you are already a fairly 251 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,280 charismatic person who's nice to hang around with. 252 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Do you know, many of them will kind of are sort of social 253 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,560 strategies that, you know, if you have a good or even decent 254 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,800 kind of social sense. And yeah, you know, sometimes 255 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,480 women do like it when you kind of playfully make fun of them. 256 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,520 Maybe you don't mean bad it, but, you know, stuff like that, 257 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,800 things like that. But you have to have a sense 258 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,040 already, I think of where. But the line is a good set, a 259 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,560 good sense of social intuition. And unsurprisingly, there's 260 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,080 actually quite a large section of people who are looking up 261 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,560 this stuff who do not have that and therefore find that this 262 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,640 stuff is actually just making them blunder and embarrass 263 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,840 themselves. And Pick Up Artist Tape was a 264 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,320 site that was made for people who had found that, but it 265 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:59,280 didn't really, its focus of Aya wasn't really pick up artists as 266 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,680 such, despite the name being called Pick Up Artist Tape. 267 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,280 It was women because they hadn't worked the way that the pick up 268 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,600 artists had told them they would. 269 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,320 And so an ideology developed out of this forum which said that it 270 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,840 was actually there was actually nothing that you could do as a 271 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,760 person to become more attractive to women because essentially 272 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,520 your destiny was written in stone based on what you looked 273 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,880 like. And this was one of the early 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,720 kind of in cell forums. As a result, people there 275 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,320 started identifying as involuntarily celibate and very 276 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,280 much viewed this as something that could not be changed. 277 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,720 In fact, infamously, Elliot Rodger, the mass shooter who 278 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,240 came out of this forum, was the reason that it was actually shut 279 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,560 down because he was a known poster there. 280 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,320 And then it became something called slut hate, which, yeah, 281 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,560 speaks for itself. And I think from then on, it 282 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,280 branched out into something called Lux ISM, which again, was 283 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,440 this kind of ideology that everything essentially is 284 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,840 determined by how good, how good looking you are, what you look 285 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,240 like. And so this is where then the 286 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,240 subculture of looks maxing comes from, which essentially kind of 287 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,680 comes to this ideology, which says that, yeah, it's nothing to 288 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,720 do with how nice you are. It's nothing to do with how 289 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,920 funny you are. Your success, not just with 290 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,720 women, but in life in general, will be determined by what you 291 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,119 look like. It therefore is imperative for 292 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,400 you to go to extreme measures to be as good looking as possible. 293 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,240 But I think we've got to remember this undercurrent of 294 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,320 misogyny that comes out of it because I think sometimes when 295 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,240 people hear about lux maxing or writes about lux maxing, they 296 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,960 still very much have the attitude that these are guys who 297 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,160 want to be good, looking to attract women. 298 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,120 I actually think it's better. And kind of you will find the 299 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,440 subculture much less confusing if you think of it as a 300 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,960 subculture that's about becoming better, looking to reject women, 301 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,880 to humiliate women and to dominate women. 302 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,600 Can you explain that? More, I think it's probably. 303 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,520 Plausible that the reason a lot of young guys will find 304 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,080 themselves in this space in the 1st place is because they want 305 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,160 to become better looking. Because they are aware and we 306 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,360 should be. We can be honest. 307 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:12,400 Like it is true that the better looking you are, the more 308 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,000 attractive you will be to women, to men, to whoever, whoever you 309 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,520 want to attract. You know, there's a kind of like 310 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,080 underlying logic to it, even if they obviously take it to 311 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,680 extremes. But because this subculture is 312 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,520 born out of in cell subculture, it also has a great deal of 313 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,680 resentment towards women for having to do this in the 1st 314 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,040 place. You know, the in cell subculture 315 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,320 kind of doesn't really view women wanting women desiring 316 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,240 attractive men, straight women desiring attractive men. 317 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,400 I should say that a lot of this is just kind of completely 318 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,160 heteronormative. So I apologize if I'm talking in 319 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,000 a kind of heteronormative way as I describe it. 320 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,640 They don't really view that as a as a rational impulse or an 321 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,840 understandable one. It's very much viewed as a 322 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,400 insult and as one of the reasons that women are essentially 323 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,960 inferior to men. So there is kind of a great deal 324 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,760 of resentment built up in this ideology around women's 325 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,120 attraction to men. And even if you essentially are 326 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,720 the stereotypical teenager who wants to who wants to get chicks 327 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,040 and gets kind of drawn into this as Clavicular and his biography 328 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,480 seems to suggest that he was, I don't think it seems that you 329 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,280 likely that you will stay that way. 330 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,360 If you become very ingrained in the subculture, It becomes much 331 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,680 more about what they call ascending. 332 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,320 You're trying to look as good as possible to press other men to 333 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,760 attract women. But also I think you know, to 334 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,880 you want to attract them not because you want to like date 335 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,960 them or because you actually enjoy being around them. 336 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,640 It's because of the level of status that that will give you 337 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,720 that attraction will give you. Having the having actually 338 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,080 watched a few clavicular streams, it seems something that 339 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,160 a lot of journalists seem to be missing is that these dates and 340 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,480 interactions that he has with women that are live streamed, he 341 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,200 largely insults them. You know, they ask him for a 342 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,680 rating and he says to, you know, beautiful young girl, he's my 343 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,800 club. Your mid face is too wide and 344 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,920 your I don't know, your nasolabial area is recessed and 345 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,480 all of this kind of stuff. And I think there's a real 346 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,760 savage pleasure and his audience, it looks maxing 347 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,400 audience that are are living vicariously through that and 348 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,160 presumably. Some of them haven't hammered 349 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,880 their faces like he has or whatever to try to get whatever 350 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,800 look he has not yet. But they may just enjoy seeing, 351 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,440 you know, in the same way I like to watch Juan Soto of the New 352 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,720 York Mets, like hit a home run. I can't do it. 353 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,400 They can watch this guy who's like, you know, there there's 354 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,120 he's on the battlefield of dating. 355 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,560 They can watch their favorite dater go and insult these women 356 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,840 and show off how he is. I want to ask you a question 357 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:05,040 that I had written a component that I don't, I did not, I have 358 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,160 not seen addressed in any of the profiles about it or anything 359 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,960 about it, which is this idea that, you know, looks or a 360 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,200 science. And that is what women respond 361 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,960 to. And I'm bisexual, but, you know, 362 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,000 so I have a little bit of a, you know, more of a thing, you know, 363 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,480 but women in my in my, in my experience, much more than men 364 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,440 do not necessarily go for, oh, the face is symmetrical or this. 365 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,520 And I'll give you one example of that, you know, that has been on 366 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,960 my mind recently. The French singer Serge 367 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:43,440 Gainsbour, right, who's like kind of funny looking, but 368 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,400 literally could walk in anywhere in France in like 1971. 369 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,240 And like, you know, women would be just all over him because of 370 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,800 his tremendous charisma, his humor, his ability, his 371 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,040 songwriting ability, his his captivating stage presence. 372 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,440 And it's like I, I, to me, it feels it's so foreign to actual, 373 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,160 you know, sex pairings between men and women. 374 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,600 It just doesn't seem like at all how it works. 375 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,800 You know, I don't know if you could weigh in on that. 376 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,160 Yeah. Yeah, well, I I saw quite a 377 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,400 fascinating little bit of dialogue between Quavicular and 378 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,400 the comedian talk show host Adam Friedland. 379 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,280 Adam Friedland essentially raised this point to him. 380 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,360 Do you know, he said, I don't get it. 381 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,800 I I see, you know, I see beautiful women with not that 382 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,520 attractive men all the time. And I think I had a couple of 383 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,960 answers for this, which are both standard in the manosphere and 384 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,280 also kind of contradict each other, which is to be expected, 385 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,440 I think from ideology, which kind of just revolves around 386 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,200 resentment towards women and then kind of picks your answers 387 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,080 for that. So he said, well, yeah, you 388 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,960 know, it's not necessarily looks, looks at just the just 389 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,320 one very important part of the puzzle. 390 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,960 But if you have enough money, if you have enough resources, then 391 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,040 sure, you'll, you'll be beautiful women will will still 392 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,480 throw themselves at you. It's just harder to do that than 393 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,080 it is to become beautiful. But then he also had a point 394 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,080 where he said, which I found really fascinating because I 395 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,520 think this comes back to the really deep ideological nature 396 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,720 of Luke's maxing, which a lot of people miss, where he said, Oh, 397 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,640 well, actually those women aren't that beautiful. 398 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,200 That if you, if you actually assess them according to this 399 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,560 objective scale that we've developed on our forums, you 400 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,680 would see actually, you know, that they're probably looks 401 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,080 matched with the guy that they're dating. 402 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,160 But we just think that they're beautiful because because we're 403 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,840 attracted to them, Which I, I think it's a really hard thing 404 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,680 to get your head around if you haven't spent a lot of time on 405 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,560 these forums. Because we think, well, I'm 406 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,400 attracted to them. They're probably good looking as 407 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,720 a result. But because they have this 408 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,000 mathematical scale by which they are supposedly can rate any any 409 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,760 human being, you know, This is why he ends up, I think, saying 410 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,680 that Sidney Sweeney, for instance, the actress is 411 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,960 actually only a three but men meant because they're so 412 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,840 attracted to her because of her body, they don't notice this so. 413 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,840 I have a question for you. I was just curious your take 414 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:25,480 this idea of that there is this attainable mathematical 415 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,720 perfection that a male can achieve in his appearance right? 416 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:37,880 I mean, this archetype is muscular to a degree. 417 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,200 It had, you know, they talk about the rate, how far apart 418 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,440 are your mouth and your eyes? How wide is your face? 419 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520 How strong is your jawline? And how does that compare to 420 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,160 your shoulders and that sort of thing. 421 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:54,040 Underneath all of that, that image is also white, right? 422 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,760 In nearly every context. In fact, there's been people of 423 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,400 color in this community that have been chased off in the past 424 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,760 and attacked saying, well, you can never achieve this because 425 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,400 you're you're not a white person. 426 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,160 Do you? Think it would be fair to also, 427 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,840 when we're talking about the ideology undergirding this 428 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,720 online movement, to also think about it in the terms of it 429 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,600 being eugenicist? Yeah, yeah. 430 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,360 I mean, I think it's very explicitly eugenicist. 431 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:31,560 Lots and lots of in cell writing will often kind of talk about 432 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,120 the, yeah, I think in quite sort of fatalistic terms. 433 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,720 I mean, this is this is what they call black Pilling, right? 434 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,640 And we can talk a little bit maybe about later about the in 435 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,600 cell influence on digital language, which I've always 436 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,720 found fascinating. The way so much Internet slang 437 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,120 actually just dates to back to in cell forums. 438 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,320 But yeah, the the kind of the black pill, essentially that it 439 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,240 would be better if you'd never been born, if you were born 440 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,640 below a certain level of attractiveness, which quite 441 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080 explicitly correlates to race, as you're right to point out. 442 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,880 Jared, I mean, one thing I hesitate to call insole 443 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,000 subculture what supremacist is because it is actually very, 444 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,040 very diverse. A lot of insole users aren't 445 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320 white. And I think this creates a kind 446 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,640 of interesting dialectic on insole forums as a result, in 447 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,320 which users will often be bemoaning the fact that they 448 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,400 live in a society where there is a white beauty standard which 449 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,040 they, as you point out, will never, never live up to, while 450 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,360 at the same time kind of also buying into that white beauty 451 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:48,280 standard as an objective scale. So, yeah, all I can say is, 452 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,440 yeah, I think it's an interesting contradiction that 453 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,880 exists in in cell subculture and largely in the manosphere in 454 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,400 general, which has diversified a lot over the last 10 years. 455 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,200 So we see a lot. Of different women on these 456 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,080 streams, I got to say like some of it really reminds me of pro 457 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,280 wrestling. Like it does not seem real. 458 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,040 Right. And I feel like there's just. 459 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,960 Like, OK, there's a lot of things going on here. 460 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,120 I I will cop to finding that guy androgynic, whatever that 461 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:25,000 gigantic looks maxer like. I do find the, the, the, the 462 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,720 videos, the clips that people share of him, like just going 463 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,880 out hunting the ASU frat leader or whatever it was for people 464 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,800 who don't know this, it was an I mean, I, I can't even explain it 465 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,320 because I'll I'll get it wrong and someone will. 466 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,120 It's so stupid. Don't even don't even if you 467 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,640 haven't heard it, don't worry about it. 468 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,000 But like there's this gigantic looks Maxer who is like 6 foot 469 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,640 5. And I want to point out 470 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,200 something very quickly about that guy does not seem 471 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,600 attractive. There is nothing soft about him. 472 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,880 He's like a hunter. It's he looks like a Terminator 473 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,560 or something, right, which is not not usually something that 474 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,120 you want to like go to bed with. And he's just like, you know, 475 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,360 walking around it. It looks like pro wrestling to 476 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:03,600 me. Like you're like, oh, I like 477 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,120 androgynic. He's like 6 foot 5 and like I 478 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:08,960 like clavicular. He's like the slightly, you 479 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,880 know, I don't know, Twinkie, like pretty guy who goes after 480 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,960 her like these these girls. And then the ASU flat, flat 481 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,920 leader whose body looks really strange to me, by the way, like 482 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,080 just too much muscle. Whatever's going on there with 483 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,920 steroids or whatever. I don't know what it is, OK, 484 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,840 whatever, but it looks like pro wrestling where you bring out a 485 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,520 bunch of different guys and they fight, but without the 486 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,120 wrestling. Like they're just sort of like 487 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,720 they're kind of just stand next. To each other, yeah. 488 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,120 They try and attempt to frame mug each other, yes. 489 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,360 And then there are these women that kind of appear on these 490 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,200 streams. And to me, I have like an 491 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,240 ongoing debate in my head about how much they could even really 492 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,280 want these guys. And I don't want to be in denial 493 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,920 and be like, well, he is A now unfortunately like becoming a 494 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,560 sort of B list celebrity called vicular. 495 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,400 So that may be attractive to people. 496 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,240 And according to this, he makes like a like $1,000,000 a year in 497 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,200 streaming already. And he's 20. 498 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,880 So that may be attractive to people. 499 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,560 But I I can't help but think these women want to access the 500 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,560 stream like wannabe streamers themselves or want to be seen on 501 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,760 a stream or become celebrities and that's why they're there. 502 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,440 And there's this clip of this, you know, recent one of a guy 503 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,280 who he claims, you know, that that that he's been dating this 504 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,160 girl for a year. And O Clavicular, please give me 505 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,600 my girl back and it to me it sounds fake. 506 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:36,920 Jared, do you have the clip of that? 507 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:49,240 Can we play it? It's Valentine's Day, bro. 508 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,800 You my girl. You're a good guy. 509 00:29:53,800 --> 00:30:00,360 I know you're a good guy. Valentine's Day, The kindness of 510 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,720 your heart. You're a good guy. 511 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760 I know you're a good guy, brother. 18 minutes ago 512 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,320 Valentine's Day ended, so you're going to have to fuck off. 513 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,000 All I do is win, win, win. Sounds like the worst time 514 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,120 anyone's ever had to be. I know I can't. 515 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,280 Believe they're still playing that song in clubs. 516 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,080 That was weakest song they were playing when I was going out, 517 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,600 hitting the club on. Valentine's Day, Worst clubs 518 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:35,800 ever. Get down with. 519 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,040 DJ Khaled I'm. Sure, I'm sure would spike his 520 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,360 quarters all levels if he went to the kind of club that I 521 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,480 prefer. But, you know, they, I guess my 522 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,880 question, my question is, is any like, well, maybe some of it's 523 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,120 real, but I mean, is it fair to say that some of this is fake? 524 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,160 Because that doesn't that that whole interaction seemed, it 525 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,400 just doesn't seem like people, the way humans interact. 526 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,840 Yeah, I, I. I have to agree. 527 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,160 I mean, I, I, I don't have any insight and knowledge on that 528 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,200 clip, but I also saw it and thought, yeah, that's not real. 529 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:11,000 And it's very common for these, I think they're called IRL 530 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,560 streamers on Kik, these people who stream themselves for like 531 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,920 16 hours a day, just going around their day, going about 532 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,480 their day to, to set things up to have an entourage A-Team who 533 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,080 will essentially kind of, you know, these people won't, will 534 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,720 be, won't necessarily be like paid actors or anything kind of 535 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,280 really super formal. But there'll be people there in 536 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,800 the club and they say, hey, do you want to act out this scene 537 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,280 for us? You know, we've got so and so 538 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,880 many subscribers, things like that to kind of, you know, a bit 539 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,160 of a bit of play acting, a little bit of drama. 540 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,720 My guess is that's probably what was happening there. 541 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,960 But I think it's, it's worth pointing out because I think 542 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,280 this is a, an interesting development in the manosphere in 543 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:02,160 general, which is when I did my PhD about the manosphere and 544 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,680 when I was writing about it, it was largely text based. 545 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,640 And it was also not a super comfortable place for women to 546 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,120 be involved. There were always, you know, 547 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,120 women involved in the manosphere, female figures, but 548 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,560 it was, it was hard. Do you know, it was hard to have 549 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,520 that level of scrutiny in your, in your personal life, that kind 550 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,600 of level of hostility towards women in your fan base and to 551 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,920 scrape by unscathed? And there's a great many women 552 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,240 who tried and kind of eventually ended up bowing out. 553 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,120 One thing that I have found interesting with the rise of 554 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,880 platforms like like Twitch and Kik, but also things like Only 555 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,240 Fans, is that there has become a much more monetary incentive to 556 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,800 be a woman involved in the manosphere. 557 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:55,480 And you can actually now monetize the humiliation in a 558 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,680 way that the women I was writing about never really could. 559 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200 I'll give an example from a different sphere, but a podcast 560 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,880 like Fresh and Fit or the Whatever podcast have created 561 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,760 this model, which I'm still a little bit astonished by and how 562 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,000 successful it is, where they will have usually one or two 563 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,840 male hosts and then they will get on weekly a new set of 564 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,080 women. Some are only fans models, some 565 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,680 are Instagram influencers, some are aspiring trick Twitch 566 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,120 streamers and stuff like that. And for hours, literally hours, 567 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360 they will sit around and dissect their personal lives. 568 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,960 They'll call them sluts. They'll, you know, laugh at 569 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,840 them, they'll mock them, they'll degrade them. 570 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,160 They'll encourage their audience to send in donations so they 571 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,320 can, you know, do text to speech and read out things, calling 572 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,760 them hoes and things like that. But it obviously benefits these 573 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,080 women to sort of sit and kind of just, you know, take it and kind 574 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,120 of act, act a little bit offended and things like that. 575 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,240 But they're laughing all the way to the bank because, you know, 576 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,640 that's at the end of the day, their subscribers will go up. 577 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,880 And so there's a kind of interesting dynamic here, I 578 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,880 think going on, which is that it's actually the manosphere has 579 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,199 become more profitable all round, but it's actually become 580 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,600 more profitable to become one of the manospheres villains for a 581 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,360 woman. And I think probably with at 582 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,000 least some of these women who are going up to Clovic here and 583 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,080 saying, oh, rape me, rape me. I think I'm a 10. 584 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,560 And then he kind of gives her a dressing down and says, so 585 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,159 actually, you know, according to the objective scale, you're 586 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,800 barely worth my attention. My guess is there is also an 587 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,120 element of what's the wrestling term, kayfabe. 588 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,840 Kayfabe. Completely slit my mind going on 589 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,880 here where that women actually didn't really, really want to 590 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,560 hit on Clovic that will have him rape her or something like that. 591 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480 But she's aware that this will become a clippable moment, that 592 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,800 there's actually nothing his audience and indeed social media 593 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,639 in general, wants to see more than him dressing down a pretty 594 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,880 young woman. There are no. 10s, I think, 595 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,520 yeah, there. Are no 10s he's like he he. 596 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,200 It's an impossible standard, I think. 597 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Remember when Trump used to? Say the wall, he'd be like the 598 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,880 wall just got 10 feet higher, he used to say back when he. 599 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,600 Back when he used to pretend. That there was he was going to 600 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,480 build a wall. He'd be like, the wall just got 601 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,440 20 feet higher or whatever. It's like 10. 602 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,760 You know, it's, you know, we're talking about some sort of weird 603 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,120 ethereal being that doesn't exist and, like, glows in the 604 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,160 dark, right? It's not even a real person 605 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,640 because he's he's looking at Audrey Hepburn or whatever, and 606 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,320 he's like, she's a six. Like, yeah. 607 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,080 Yeah, I think obviously it's constantly getting updated the 608 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,120 the scale with new, new celebrities. 609 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,320 But I think last thing I saw they were saying that Timothy 610 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,480 Chalamet was a four, which which feels a little bit harsh, you 611 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,160 know. But yeah, you know, I so I think 612 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,120 there's, there's an incentive essentially, if you're a woman 613 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,520 kind of trying to trying to launch your career to get your 614 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,280 face out there, even if it is on one of these interminable, 615 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,120 interminable streams. Because I have to say one thing 616 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,720 I was really struck by when I first started watching these 617 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:08,800 clips and then then the streams, and maybe I shouldn't have been 618 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,040 at all. Looking back on Pravicula's life 619 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,080 story, it's just how awkward and bad talking to people he is. 620 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,480 He's just really, really bad at it. 621 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,080 He's just a dope. Yeah. 622 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,200 I mean, it's an element of, it feels a bit like, like a 623 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,720 Victorian morality story, you know, about the dangers of, of 624 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:33,440 focusing on vanity without cultivating any other virtues. 625 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,320 You know, I feel there's something kind of like wildy 626 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,120 into it, watching him kind of stumble through conversations 627 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,040 with young women where he's just kind of just referencing memes 628 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,880 and kind of just sort of, you know, saying just the kind of 629 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,200 same sort of like Gen. Gen. 630 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,040 Z sort of slang, just sort of stump string together a 631 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,440 sentence. It sort of feels a bit like, I 632 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,120 don't know. Again, I don't want to sound 633 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,920 like I'm really nostalgic for the the good old days of pickup 634 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,720 artistry, but I do sort of look back to, you know, the early 635 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,640 naughties pickup artist scene. And I do think, well, even if it 636 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,000 didn't really work for a lot of people, it was to a certain 637 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,360 extent trying to teach men to be fun, to be around, to be do you 638 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,080 know, to to be good company in a sense, Yeah. 639 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,040 I mean. It's like when you give, you 640 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,040 know, people a recipe and you get a good cook and they make a 641 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,400 fantastic meal and then you give it to somebody who can't cook 642 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,200 or, or, or is really not well practiced and it tastes like 643 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,760 crap. It, you know, the ingredients 644 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,600 aren't necessarily good. But you brought up that thing 645 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,160 about about negging where it can be fun. 646 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,800 Yeah, I've actually had. I've had women tease me, right? 647 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,080 Where it would be like sort of like make fun of like, I'm like, 648 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,880 oh, wow, you really like that band, huh? 649 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,160 Or something, you know, like that's a nag. 650 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,960 And then, you know, but I know it's also like I'm being, I also 651 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,400 know they're flirting with me. And it is very disarming, right? 652 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,200 It's like, it's like that. But then if you have somebody 653 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,800 come up and be like, you know, that band sucks. 654 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,120 And so do you like, you know, like a guy saying that it's like 655 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,920 they're not going to work. So yeah, I mean, at least there 656 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,120 was an attempt. I don't know. 657 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,320 I don't want to now. I feel like I'm crediting. 658 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,600 I don't want to credit. I don't credit the I. 659 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,400 Genuinely do feel. Like we, we it was, it was a 660 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,320 scummy subculture, but we we did compared to what came 661 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,120 afterwards. We didn't know how good we had 662 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,520 it trying to. Communicate this thing where 663 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,840 it's sort of like, you know, that men have issues of 664 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,840 confidence, I think in part because of this sort of 665 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,680 patriarchal structure of the culture, right? 666 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,280 Where they're under tremendous pressure. 667 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,760 They're like, you know, men are dying fast and like feeling 668 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,640 tremendous. Very proud of partly because the 669 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,080 world men created for themselves and they're trying to figure out 670 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,720 how to crack the code and just get a, you know, somebody to be 671 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,440 cozy with and watch TV and have a little kiss every once in a 672 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,160 while, you know, so they can feel better. 673 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,760 So like, yeah, this feels different. 674 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640 And the other thing about it and I, I, you know, I, I don't, I, I 675 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,840 think it's very easy to just look at this and be like, this 676 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,560 is gay. You know, this feels really gay 677 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,760 to me. But it does feel, I, I must say, 678 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:11,080 it does feel like it is it almost like taking the woman out 679 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,640 of the heterosexual equation, which is why I think people are 680 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,160 quickly saying this is gay, You know, people who are critical of 681 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,440 it online. I'm talking about not not 682 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,320 talking about like, you know, refined leftist critics, but 683 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,720 like the average person online who's a sports guy, be like, OK, 684 00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:28,360 this stuff's gay. You know, you'll see them in the 685 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,040 replies all the time. And I think it's like, it does 686 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,800 feel like a little bit like that to me. 687 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,720 Like it just like males focusing on males with the woman as a 688 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,240 prop. Yeah, I. 689 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:43,520 Mean, it's funny because there's so much of the manosphere that, 690 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,560 as you say, will eventually come under this level of scrutiny. 691 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,720 And I think when people call it gay, I think what they are 692 00:39:54,200 --> 00:40:00,720 mistaking for gay is actually a political fetishization of 693 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,760 masculinity and men. Of of. 694 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,600 Like male supremacy of male. Supremacy. 695 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,360 Exactly. Yeah. 696 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,760 I mean, it's funny because sometimes it can really, it 697 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,800 really does kind of come across as an erotic fetishization as 698 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,160 well. But I think it is, it is 699 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,640 ultimately, you know, if you kind of want to go back to old 700 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,280 second wave feminist theory, there's actually kind of nothing 701 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,480 gay about this kind of the heteronormative, heterodominant 702 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:34,920 kind of valorization of masculinity. 703 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,760 But certainly some of the ways that it plays out when you sort 704 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,320 of take that logic, that kind of heterosexual logic to its utter 705 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,640 extreme, I mean, it can be really comical. 706 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,920 I remember reading a thread and some old bodybuilding forums 707 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,000 which are another huge influence in in cell culture, which kind 708 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,520 of had the same devolution as the pickup artist culture. 709 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,880 You know, guys who want to get ripped to pick up women 710 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440 ultimately find that that doesn't actually isn't just like 711 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,280 The Secret Life hack to romantic success and then devolve into 712 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,760 misogyny. And I and Bronze Age pervert 713 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,760 came out of this scene. Yeah. 714 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,600 Is that a? Guy Yeah, I remember 1. 715 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,720 There's one thread that just has always struck with me where a 716 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:27,520 bunch of users from this bodybuilding slash incel slash 717 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080 manosphere forum all get together and start talking about 718 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,280 how objectively, if you take away all sexual attraction, 719 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,960 women aren't actually that beautiful and men are much more 720 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,200 beautiful. You know, they sort of say, 721 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,520 well, obviously we're just kind of program that's just sort of, 722 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,560 you know, that kind of chip in our brain that wants us to 723 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,080 reproduce that isn't, you know, mistake clouding our judgment 724 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,960 and making us think that the female form is beautiful. 725 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,280 When actually, if you think about it, it's kind of soft, 726 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,920 it's squishy. It's nothing like these kind of 727 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,400 clean, masculine like hard lines which you find in the male body, 728 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,120 which obviously objectively superior. 729 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,680 And I, I find it really interesting because it's the 730 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,400 philosopher clouds Tivolate and his book Male Fantasies kind of 731 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,440 really drills down into this impulse in proto fascist 732 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,000 literature in Germany. It's a, yeah, male supremacist 733 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,520 impulse, but it's ultimately kind of a fascist one as well, 734 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,160 which has so elevated the kind of masculine, the strong, the 735 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,720 dominant over what is seen as kind of the feminine and the 736 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:34,400 weak that it ultimately, despite being extremely homophobic, 737 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,040 extremely politically OK, opposed to LGBT people, also has 738 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,160 this element of male Eroticism, do you think? 739 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:48,520 That could be a reason why it feels like this stuff's getting 740 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,720 pick up lately. I mean, the especially in the 741 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:55,440 United States, I mean, we're in a fascist hellscape, you know, 742 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,800 with federal agents murdering people in the street. 743 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:04,160 Just the nastiness in our political and social culture 744 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:10,320 right now is so bleak and so poisonous. 745 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,360 I mean, even in Clavicular's case, we look at who he's 746 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,400 hanging around. It's people like Andrew Tate, 747 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,320 It's people like Nick Fuentes. He lives in a condo owned by 748 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,240 Aidan Ross. All of these guys are like 749 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,880 hardcore, you know, it have have very far right politics. 750 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,800 Even though Clavicular claims to be a political, you know, this 751 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,720 is who he surrounds himself with. 752 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:39,360 This is the pocket that he's in. Do you think there is a 753 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,400 relationship between the rise of far right politics and the 754 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,280 visibility of this kind of stuff? 755 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,400 I mean, do you see that as connected 100? 756 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,360 Percent. And yeah, on the Nick Fuentes 757 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,880 point, my colleague on the QA podcast live has actually just 758 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,080 put out an episode for us about Quavicular. 759 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,920 And one thing that she points out is that Nick Fuentes was 760 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,440 actually pretty instrumental in his rise as a as an influencer. 761 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,440 And that's not coincidental. Do you know, like even though 762 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,120 Clivic, the kind of yeah has sort of disavowed politics and 763 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,480 says, Oh yeah, I, I don't care about that at all politics. 764 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,840 Is gesture. It's just. 765 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,680 Yeah, yeah, it's. It's clear that Fuentes sees, I 766 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,600 think sees the appeal of someone like Clavicular and I think 767 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,320 probably, well both of them I would say are the only 768 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,320 influences, essentials, you know, popular influences to kind 769 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,240 of come out of the in cell space. 770 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,320 So I think that's quite significant. 771 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,000 Yeah. In terms of its sort of salience 772 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,320 for the political moment, yes. I mean, one thing when I was 773 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,760 working on my series about trad wives that I couldn't stop 774 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,120 noticing once I started researching it was that there 775 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,560 was this element of super politicized fraud wives, fraud 776 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,160 wives who are, you know, kind of clearly commenting on every 777 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,240 every little feature that comes out of the culture war in every 778 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:10,680 part of the new cycle. And, you know, kind of, yeah, 779 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,760 clearly news junkies, essentially. 780 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,120 But there was a much bigger portion of them that I thought 781 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:25,240 were much more passively inculcating right wing values by 782 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:27,920 that they would often, Yeah, do a similar kind of dance, 783 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,040 disavowing politics. That's not really my thing. 784 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,960 I'm not interested in that. I just think I want to focus 785 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,920 just on me and my little family, and I think it'll make you 786 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,360 happier just to focus on you and your little family, too. 787 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,120 When I look at people like Clavicular and all of the kind 788 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:50,160 of bodybuilding looks maxing side of the right wing, I kind 789 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,240 of see something similar which is. 790 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,280 Essentially. Kind of telling that audience to 791 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,600 drop out to, to stop paying attention to the news, to stop 792 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,760 paying attention to the cycle, to kind of just let things flow 793 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,480 as they may and just serve all of their attention to. 794 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,440 Well, in women's case, it was like the home, but in men's case 795 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,160 it's much more often just their bodies. 796 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,040 I find it a funny parallel to some of the most egregious, some 797 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,400 pop feminism of the 20 tens, which was kind of doing a 798 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,200 similar thing of saying, you know, self-care is is so 799 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,680 important as a woman. In fact, it's revolutionary for 800 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:36,040 you to buy the shampoo. And you know, there seems to be 801 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,200 something, something similar going on, which is in some of 802 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,120 the kind of bodybuilding spaces, which is saying, you know, it's, 803 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,400 it's so important that, you know, they, the powers that be 804 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,320 are so afraid of a strong alpha male populace that can, that 805 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,160 can, you know, take, take, take on the government anytime they 806 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,040 want. So therefore you need to be 807 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,480 spending all of your free time at the gym and pushing steroids 808 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,160 and taking and researching vitamin supplements and things 809 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,200 like that. And I sort of think like, well, 810 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,400 actually, if I were the powers that be, I would feel intensely 811 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:15,000 relaxed about a huge section of the population just focusing, 812 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,280 turning all of their attention into themselves. 813 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,560 Do you know, I, I couldn't think of anything that would be more 814 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,280 liberatory for me. The yeah, great evil woke powers 815 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,920 that be frankly interesting. Too, I just want to point out 816 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,680 that like in addition to wanting to throw out that like women, 817 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,160 women want to sleep with the staff, the podcaster, women want 818 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,440 to sleep with Jack Black and like because they think they're 819 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,560 funny and cool and they like their thing. 820 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,840 And sometimes it also doesn't have to do with money. 821 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,280 Also, sometimes it's a guy who works hard and is just cool and 822 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,600 not necessarily the, you know, mind blowing it. 823 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,240 It's just it, it is so weird, but it's it, it feels like we've 824 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:56,880 come as a culture beyond just it. 825 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,200 It obviously being, to me, it's obviously it has to be a symptom 826 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,800 of fascism that somebody with with absolutely zero talent, 827 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,280 like is like famous for like hammering his jaw to look a 828 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,720 certain way. I mean, I don't need, you know, 829 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:13,080 I'd go back in time and throw that in the mix up like, Oh no, 830 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,280 fascism happens in the future. But yeah, I just. 831 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,080 Just to interrupt, I'm not totally convinced he was doing 832 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,880 the the jaw smashing thing. It may not have. 833 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,040 Been I don't know, I, I I. I get a bit of a sense that 834 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,240 again, I I, I don't this is good. 835 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:32,600 I like yeah, interjecting us. It is here's my conspiracy. 836 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:39,280 I kind of sense that he has a bit of a, you know, not to yeah, 837 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,000 largely talentless, but I think he actually has a bit of a flair 838 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,080 for self promotion and kind of saying exaggerating all of the 839 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,120 extreme things that he's doing. I think probably initially to 840 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,600 gain just a bit, you know, attention and excitement on the 841 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,480 looks maxing forums that he was on. 842 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,400 And then I think sort of taking it, taking it to social media 843 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,000 and things like that. It's yeah, I, I just sort of 844 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,840 sometimes get a bit of a sense that that he has an, he kind of 845 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,680 has a canny understanding essentially for stuff that's a 846 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,280 little bit shocking, a little bit outrageous. 847 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:20,120 And that sometimes that might be what's going on with the I'm 848 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,840 going to get double jaw surgery or I'm going to, yeah, get break 849 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,480 my legs so I can be an inch taller and, and things like 850 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:28,600 that. You know that is. 851 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,840 Fair. And I and I sometimes overlook 852 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,840 the talent of self promotion, which is something I could do 853 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,440 not possess, partly maybe because I don't have it. 854 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,080 I'm like this guy don't have no talent. 855 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,960 Like, Oh yeah, are you in the New York Times, Mike? 856 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,920 But like, you know, I, I don't know if this is a question, but 857 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,160 maybe the talking point or whatever. 858 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:54,040 I was like when I, I'm, I'm 4046 when I, you know, was first 859 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:59,960 sexually active or whatever, be like the 90s, right, mid 90s and 860 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:03,800 now view like sex as like 3 reasons for, there are like 3 861 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,000 main things here we're going on. One is to have children in some 862 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,880 cases, but not for everybody. Like there's a sort of spiritual 863 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,080 sort of comfort, kind of the Marvin Gaye sexual healing 864 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,360 aspect of it. Very important for some people, 865 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,280 very important for maybe. And the other is just pleasure, 866 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,760 right? It's just for pleasure, right? 867 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,960 Same reason we enjoy going to the, the cinema. 868 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,160 Same reason we enjoy reading a book, right? 869 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,240 It's like it's pleasurable and you know, obviously, like 870 00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:33,960 during, you know, when I first discovered I'm I was interested 871 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:39,120 in all the things that you could do after after she consents, 872 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,160 right, right. You know, it's like what think 873 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,880 about all look at all the different things we can do, like 874 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,280 all this. Look at this, can we do that? 875 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,240 That's crazy after consent, right? 876 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,640 And it seems like the culture, like the sort of the sort of 877 00:50:53,720 --> 00:51:00,200 Trumpy, you know, fascist male culture these days is completely 878 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,280 removes the pleasure part of it. It's either just or I mean, or 879 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,520 the sexual healing. It's just like about getting 880 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,520 there. Some sometimes removes consent 881 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:10,800 too. That's very important part of 882 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,560 it. Like let's let's be honest, but 883 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,120 it's really just like she has the babies and whatever and like 884 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,680 I get in the door and he quite he actually says like that's sex 885 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,320 enough for me to know that she could do it. 886 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,320 I find that completely insane. And maybe that's the most 887 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,000 fascist thing of all that to to not want to experience that. 888 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,720 Right. What what even is that? 889 00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:35,280 What what is the where's the pleasure in that? 890 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,320 Just to me, it seems like a really creepy world for young 891 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,480 boys to grow up in. Yeah. 892 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,480 Absolutely. I think again, this is where 893 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,720 trying to strip looks, maxing of its roots in the manosphere and 894 00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:52,960 so subculture unnecessarily leads to a kind of impoverished 895 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,200 understanding of what's going on, what's going on. 896 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,160 When Clavicular says, you know, I'd rather actually not have 897 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,840 sex, It's it's a just waste of my my time and energy. 898 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,040 It's enough to know that that she wants to that I could 899 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,720 because I think again, that comes back to this 900 00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:13,360 understanding. And even though we were being 901 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,000 nice at the about the old pick up artists 10 minutes ago, let's 902 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,880 be real, they they started this in a sense, at least in an 903 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,800 Internet cultural sense. I can't can't say that they pick 904 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:28,000 up artists started patriarchy in general, but they they did start 905 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,760 this kind of understanding of the sex as an act of domination 906 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,000 essentially. And what often emerged out of 907 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,160 these spaces, which, yeah, again, I think there's actually 908 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,400 not really anything necessarily wrong. 909 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:47,800 I think with thinking, hey, I'm. I'd like to, I'd like to be more 910 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,920 attractive to the opposite sex. I'm going to look up tips on how 911 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,240 to do that. Like, I don't think that as an 912 00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:56,680 impulse is a bad thing. What I think was so damaging 913 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,760 about so many of these cultures was how once you get enough 914 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,120 people with this idea together and kind of get them talking is 915 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,160 how often they would come up with these ideologies. 916 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,280 That would sort of breed resentment about the fact that 917 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,920 they had to do that. Anger about the fact it wasn't 918 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:18,920 working, and would try and find ways to essentially denigrate 919 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,840 women for having having forced them into this position in the 920 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,080 1st place. And I think there's a 921 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:32,200 interesting economic basis for why the manosphere has exploded 922 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,440 in the Internet era. And I think it's because we're 923 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,360 actually at a slightly unprecedented moment in human 924 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:47,760 history where increasingly for women, getting a male partner is 925 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,000 no longer an act of survival, which it was for a very, very 926 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,560 long time. Even for working class women, 927 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,960 who obviously always had jobs pre the feminist movement, free 928 00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,640 women's and liberation, a lot of those jobs were not well paid 929 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,400 enough for you to be able to survive by yourself, let alone 930 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,280 support children. Yeah, I mean it. 931 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,200 Really. Wasn't that long ago that women 932 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,080 became able to get credit cards in their own name, right? 933 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:10,600 Right. I mean. 934 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,480 I mean. It's just everything was stacked 935 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,760 against them. They had to be married. 936 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,480 They had to have. They had to be. 937 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,360 They had to. Basically have a sponsor, yeah. 938 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,800 And you know, with the removal of a lot of these, that basic 939 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:32,000 incent, survival incentives to be with a male partner that has 940 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,160 come at A at a loss for a lot of straight men. 941 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,320 Do you know, a lot of straight men have just frankly lost out 942 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,520 from that? Some people will say, you know, 943 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,240 well, men don't lose anything from feminism. 944 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,680 It's not a 0 sum game. But actually that is that is a 945 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,240 lost, you know, it's, it's now harder for them to get a partner 946 00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:54,840 than it was in the times when it was by the sticking with him or 947 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,360 destitution. And I think that it's, we can 948 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,320 often forget when we're kind of talking about Internet 949 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,920 subcultures, the way that some forum came out of another forum, 950 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,480 the way that this ideology, this way that this language 951 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,960 developed, that I think there is actually just like quite a like 952 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:15,040 hard material factor in the way that a lot of this stuff has 953 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,000 taken off this kind of desire to be attractive to women, but 954 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,200 also, you know, this very deep anger towards women. 955 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,600 A lot of the stuff constantly revolves around the idea that 956 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,160 women are too picky these days. Women have got an inflated sense 957 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,160 of of their own worth and they'll attribute this to 958 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:39,880 various factors, to dating apps, to social media, the fact that, 959 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,080 you know, that lots of women get lots of likes if they post a 960 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:44,840 bikini picture on Instagram and things like that. 961 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,520 But I think they actually might be speaking to a much more 962 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,680 brutal economic fact, which is that for many women, it's not an 963 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,080 act of survival anymore to have a male partner. 964 00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:00,320 And that has disempowered, I think men, heterosexual men on 965 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,160 the dating scene. And I, I think that a lot of 966 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,360 this manosphere anger comes comes from that too. 967 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,520 Bad. Now you have to actually be of 968 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,600 some value to her in a way that is to actually. 969 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:15,920 Be a pleasant person you have to you. 970 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,680 Have to you have to provide company that she enjoys and and 971 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,200 have to be a good kisser and and have to have to be able to share 972 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,120 meals together that that she enjoys. 973 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,480 Tough tough for you. Sorry. 974 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,200 So just ramping up here. You know, this type of stuff is 975 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:39,280 certainly grown in its profile, right? 976 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,560 I I mean this clavicular guy, stupid name I can't pronounce. 977 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,880 You know, he's getting he's on Adam Friedland show, He's 978 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,560 getting the New York Times profile. 979 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,320 He's with Piers Morgan. GQ did a write up. 980 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,280 Is this stuff actually exploding online? 981 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,720 Is it actually like certainly the stuff is getting more 982 00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:06,520 visible, but do you see this as a movement or, or a subgroup of 983 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:11,120 the larger like manosphere movement that is gaining 984 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,160 traction? Because if that's the case, 985 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,760 seems like like there's obviously the ideological risk, 986 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,800 but this also seems, you know, if it is the type of thing that 987 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,600 they're advocating bone smashing, taking steroids and, 988 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,440 and, you know, mixing these cocktails of various nutritional 989 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,280 supplements and, you know, extreme fasting, disordered 990 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,160 eating, all of that to an audience that is largely 991 00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:42,040 comprised of teenagers and young men. 992 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,280 Aside from ideology, it also seems insanely dangerous. 993 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,440 Some of the things. That get recommended could kill 994 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,000 people. Right. 995 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,720 And I feel like. That's been missing from a lot 996 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,720 of the coverage. But, you know, as we wrap up 997 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,480 here, I'm curious, as somebody who spent so much time looking 998 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,760 into this issue, when you see these stories and see these 999 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,280 features and stuff, do you get a sense of like, oh, finally 1000 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,480 people are catching up to this? People are talking about this, 1001 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,480 or do you feel something else? Yeah. 1002 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:19,080 Well, I mean, I think sometimes the focus on the most absurd 1003 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,840 examples of it, the most absurd, absurd examples of a phenomenon. 1004 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,560 I mean, there's so much that's absurd about quavicular. 1005 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,480 It's absurd that he pretends or actually does smash his face 1006 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,800 with a hammer. Whatever he does, the language 1007 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,760 that is deliberately used around him is deliberately comic. 1008 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:39,280 It's deliberately absurd because yeah, as I said before, the 1009 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,280 there's always been a real fascination within cell language 1010 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,720 and you know, a lot of a lot of words that we kind of use in an 1011 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,360 Internet slang, things like something maxing or 1012 00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,080 blackpelling, doomer, ISM, chads, beaters, all the rest of 1013 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,000 it, you know, it's all it all come comes back from in cell 1014 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,120 forums. They really have an incredible 1015 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,760 amount of influence on on digital slang. 1016 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,480 So I think there's always been this level of fascination, but 1017 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,840 the focus on the most absurd examples I think might mask the 1018 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,240 fact that there is something going on. 1019 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:19,280 You know, that I think eating disorders and young men are 1020 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,120 massively rising. I think they're still not on 1021 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,400 level with eating disorders with the young women, but I think we 1022 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,520 have we are basically seeing slightly unprecedented levels in 1023 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:32,400 terms of how many young men are getting diagnosed with things 1024 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:37,760 like anorexia and orthorexia, which to me suggests, I know 1025 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:39,960 that these are complex psychological phenomenon and I 1026 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,120 don't want to simply attribute them to you know, 11 trend or 1027 00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,160 another. But to me suggest that there is 1028 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,720 something slightly emblematic, even if deliberately exaggerated 1029 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:56,160 to the most distorted extremes, and someone like Clavicular that 1030 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,960 there are body image pressures on young men. 1031 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,480 With social media, with even just dating apps, you know, 1032 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,960 things like Tinder and Hinge and all the rest of it, which are 1033 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,120 all solely image based, I think probably there are a lot more 1034 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,760 pressure on young men to look a certain way. 1035 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:21,360 And it wouldn't surprise me essentially if as a result, you 1036 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,760 were seeing kind of influences and people giving advice, but 1037 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,840 essentially kind of raising in their profile, the more extreme 1038 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,120 they advise you to go kind of similar to the old. 1039 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,240 Well, they they probably still exist now, but the old kind of 1040 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:39,320 pro Anna blogs and forums and kind of the 20 tens and things 1041 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,400 like that. The kind of more out extreme, 1042 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,640 the more kind of outrageous, you know, the more upstream, the 1043 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:50,240 kind of images were, the more extreme the advice would be 1044 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,760 given on on starving yourself and things like that. 1045 01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,920 The more followers those but those blogs would get. 1046 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,720 And it's kind of easy, I think, when you're seeing it about 1047 01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,160 young women to understand that that is a result of a, a, a 1048 01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,200 culture which is demanding kind of ever increasing sort of 1049 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,320 perfection from female bodies. But I think we might be starting 1050 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,400 to see kind of something similar with men. 1051 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:17,920 And that probably is what the fascination with figures like 1052 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,760 Clavicular are representing. I have just one. 1053 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:25,880 Last question, which is this you can, you can be as wrong as 1054 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,280 possible. We won't know right now. 1055 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,000 Where? Where do you see Clavicular? 1056 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,480 His name is Braden Peters, right? 1057 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,040 Braden Peters. I hate his stupid name so much. 1058 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:37,840 I know we've used it throughout this whole thing. 1059 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,440 Where do you see Mr. Peters in 1020 years. 1060 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:47,560 I I just I asked that because it is this is a young man's game 1061 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,640 and I'm just curious like what you think will happen to this 1062 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,400 guy because I, you know, I have my thoughts, but I just want to 1063 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:54,760 hear yours. I mean, you could never. 1064 01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:56,760 Have like a normal life after this? 1065 01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,960 No, definitely. Not a nun, I mean, yeah, as you 1066 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:06,040 say, it's a young man's game. I am not really convinced that 1067 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:13,040 he is charismatic or funny or charming enough to kind of move 1068 01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:17,440 into something else after he's been been frame mocked by a 1069 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:23,200 younger man. Having said that, you know I 1070 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:24,200 don't, I don't want to be on fat you. 1071 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,640 He's only 20 years old. I probably wasn't super 1072 01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,520 fascinating when I was 20 years old. 1073 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,720 We do, you know, people, people develop, people cultivate kind 1074 01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,720 of different aspects of themselves as they age. 1075 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,560 I don't want to, I don't want to write off the, the poor young 1076 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,520 man right now. Maybe, maybe, who knows? 1077 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,400 Maybe he'll write the next Great American novel. 1078 01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:44,560 Yeah, I'm going to. I'm going to go ahead and say 1079 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,200 I'm going to take the under on that one. 1080 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,560 If there's a Poly market odds, I'm ready to vote. 1081 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,920 I'm right at that now. I think he says. 1082 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,480 Reading spikes his cortisol levels or something, so he says 1083 01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:57,640 something like that, I don't remember. 1084 01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,720 Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, as, as I 1085 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:05,000 understand that, you know, he he streams sort of like 15 hours a 1086 01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,440 day and then spends the rest of his time either sleeping or 1087 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,760 watching clips of himself to see what he can do better. 1088 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:15,320 I mean, there is. And obviously injecting peptides 1089 01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,480 or whatever next and steroids or whatever. 1090 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,720 And to himself. I mean, there is something to be 1091 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,480 said about just how, and I kind of mentioned this before, how 1092 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,880 kind of autocannibalistic this culture is. 1093 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,240 It's so focused on the self. It's so focused on the the 1094 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,520 image. Kind of hard to imagine moving 1095 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,400 on to anything else. Again, this will this will kind 1096 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,600 of maybe sound like I'm praising other terrible manosphere 1097 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,600 influences and things like that. But the Quinters or Andrew Tate 1098 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:48,320 or people like that, they are kind of at least amusing. 1099 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:52,120 Do you know, they have like a comic talent, They're kind of 1100 01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:56,120 delivery and things like that. They're performers and I guess 1101 01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:01,120 yeah, I sort of don't really see that in clavicular so much as 1102 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:06,440 somebody who is kind of willingly being a kind of live 1103 01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,800 streamed. I want to say freak show that 1104 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,440 that sounds kind of too mean. I don't mean in the sense that 1105 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:12,920 he's a freak, but I don't think it's too. 1106 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:17,640 Mean, I just want to, I don't think it's too mean if I can 1107 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,400 just throw it because it's, I have a phone. 1108 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,600 You can tell. So there, there was a like a gay 1109 01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:27,440 identified account who said that like back in the 60s, late 60s 1110 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:32,080 or whatever early, you know, he would have been part of Andy 1111 01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,800 Warhol's Factory and he would have, you know, he would have 1112 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,360 had some sort of an affair with like one guy or whatever. 1113 01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,640 And he would have been murdered at like age, whatever. 1114 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:43,360 Yeah. And it, it spoke to something 1115 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,480 that I, you know, someone said, I said, I said this guy's going 1116 01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,600 to be dead and like, whatever. I'm not predicting that because 1117 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,080 I don't want to predict that for anybody. 1118 01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:50,200 It's terrible. It's terrible vibes. 1119 01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,320 But there is one of the reasons it's a dead end is because it's 1120 01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:58,960 so superficial and so contrary to the nature of of of 1121 01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,160 development. My part of my beard is most of 1122 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,200 my beard is white, actually. Now taking a look at it. 1123 01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,720 OK, that's yeah. I haven't looked at him like 1124 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,560 deeply. Look, it's part of, you know, 1125 01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,040 it's part of it, right. I just saw, I just saw Wallace 1126 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,520 Shawn perform the fever in in Greenwich Village. 1127 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,080 He was amazing at age 82. Part of part of aging with the 1128 01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,120 Betty Friedan. Betty Friedan thing about like 1129 01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:22,240 she has a whole book about aging. 1130 01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,360 Like, you know, it, it's, that's what it's about. 1131 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,680 It's about, you know, I mean, it's it's about letting go of 1132 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,480 that. And he is, he has created a 1133 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:37,280 culture around not letting go of certain youthful appearance, you 1134 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:39,440 know, aspects. And I, I, to me, it's just like, 1135 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,640 what is there? You know, if it, if it's not 1136 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,200 death in a little literal sense, it's death in the cultural sense 1137 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:47,920 for him or in a, in a influencer sense. 1138 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,040 I don't know how what do you do? You can't keep your you can't. 1139 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,240 It's like the guy who, who's that weird tech guy Jared, who 1140 01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,440 like wants to keep himself alive forever and he's aging 1141 01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,160 backwards. This stuff is insane to me. 1142 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,840 All this you got. People have to accept death and 1143 01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:04,960 accept aging. One person. 1144 01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,120 I mean, I really agree. I mean, I'll sound very guru 1145 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,000 like here, dispensing my my pulse of wisdom. 1146 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,960 Is it Brian Johnson? By the way, something like that, 1147 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:17,200 yeah. That's right. 1148 01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,760 It's always seemed to me, and I'm glad I grasped this quite 1149 01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:26,160 early, it's always seemed to me like a huge, huge mistake to 1150 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:32,600 really, really value your youth and your beauty, to place a high 1151 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,920 premium on that because it's the one thing that you're constantly 1152 01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:40,720 running out of. Do you know, like, so I think I 1153 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,760 just sort of grasp quite early on, even when I was very young, 1154 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,360 I think that it wasn't a good idea to become enamoured with 1155 01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:51,640 being young because it felt like a bit of a losing, a losing 1156 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,760 strategy for life. It's a way to make yourself 1157 01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,240 miserable. Yeah. 1158 01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,360 I actually now I'm a parent and I kind of think a bit about 1159 01:06:58,360 --> 01:06:59,600 being a parent as well. It can. 1160 01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,720 There's a certain seductive pull to kind of, you know, getting 1161 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,840 attached to to your baby and thinking how sweet and baby like 1162 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,600 they are and oh, I wish they could just stay like this 1163 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,160 forever. But if you think that if you 1164 01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,080 start to, you know, kind of like dwell on that and think that 1165 01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:18,400 then you are making the act of parenting become miserable 1166 01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,920 because they're not staying a baby forever by and you know 1167 01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,600 that they're always growing. And I I think I see a bit of 1168 01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:29,440 that and I wish I could just say it was the the freak shows like 1169 01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:31,960 clavicular. Honestly, I see a lot of it in 1170 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,400 Gen. Z social media culture just in 1171 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:41,480 general kind of terror of aging. And and this isn't in just 1172 01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:45,040 general kind of what me and my colleague on truly tried deeply. 1173 01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:48,600 Megan called the the girl Internet, you know, focus on 1174 01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,400 anti aging products age 23 and things like that. 1175 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,480 Here's how I look so young, age 25, stuff like that. 1176 01:07:55,480 --> 01:08:00,640 It it seemed to me like a very dangerous and quite miserable 1177 01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,440 way to live. Again, I kind of speculate in a 1178 01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,640 slightly vulgar, materialist sense that it's something to do 1179 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:11,800 with a demo age demographic where aging doesn't necessarily 1180 01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,480 equal status and material gains. Maybe in a way that it would 1181 01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,640 have the previous generations where they might have viewed as 1182 01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,720 a bit of a trade offshore. I have Gray hairs now, but I'm a 1183 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,800 bit more economically stable. I've got a house maybe for 1184 01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,319 generations where that is no longer the promise of aging. 1185 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:29,680 Maybe aging becomes more terrifying itself. 1186 01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:32,439 I don't know. Yeah, as I say, it's just pure 1187 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,680 speculation on my part, but I see a lot of it everywhere. 1188 01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,439 And I I think it's very sad. Yeah, I've. 1189 01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,359 I've. Always thought well, I haven't 1190 01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:44,640 always thought, but for a while have have kind come to 1191 01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:51,120 understand the temperance of life, the end of it right from 1192 01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:53,880 the second year before and you start dying right. 1193 01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:55,439 And that's what makes it worth it. 1194 01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,880 That's what makes it vivid and beautiful and it gives you a 1195 01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:03,800 reason to engage with the world around you and to appreciate 1196 01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:10,080 things as they come. And this format, this incentive 1197 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,439 structure, I guess, if you will, of these online cultures, I 1198 01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:18,000 think kind of Rob's life of the things that can make it 1199 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,640 beautiful. But on that big note, as I put 1200 01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:27,479 down my comically sized bong here and tuck it, tuck it behind 1201 01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,359 my desk. We've been talking to Annie 1202 01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:32,040 Kelly. Thanks so much for joining us. 1203 01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,560 Last question, guests, get this on posting through it. 1204 01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:37,359 What kind of music you fucking with? 1205 01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,520 Because this is a music podcast first and foremost. 1206 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:46,720 Oh nice. So I like a lot of modern kind 1207 01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:48,520 of western music. Actually. 1208 01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:53,040 I inherited it from my dad, who's Irish and American guy. 1209 01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,400 I don't have Americans know this, but Irish people love 1210 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,720 country and western music I think. 1211 01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:01,840 I actually did not I actually. Did not know that, yeah. 1212 01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,640 Yeah, it's really New York New. Yorkers like The Pogues, if 1213 01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:06,600 that's. Like a nice trade. 1214 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,200 Off we can have that. We can have that, yeah, I think. 1215 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,160 That's something to do with maybe a kind of a similar 1216 01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,200 musical heritage happening there, which kind of branched 1217 01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,880 off at one point anyway. Yeah, So I, I grew up listening 1218 01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,600 to old style country and Western things like Johnny Cash and 1219 01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,920 Dolly Parton and things like that. 1220 01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,680 And yeah, as a result, I kind of, I don't know, when I'm just 1221 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:30,880 trying to zone out, I like to listen to music that makes me 1222 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:35,160 feel like I'm a cowboy riding through New Mexico or something 1223 01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:38,240 like that. I did not. 1224 01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:39,800 Expect this answer, but I love it. 1225 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,160 Yeah, I. Think this is the first guest 1226 01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,520 who's recommended some country music on this show. 1227 01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:48,280 All right. Well, Andy, thanks so much for 1228 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,280 joining us. We'll talk to you soon. 1229 01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:51,960 Thanks so much for having. Me. 1230 01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,720 It's been so much fun. Thank you, Cornfield. 1231 01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,400 'S. Planted on the graves of native 1232 01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,200 peoples that we've always the Deep South of north.