1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,080 Eric was the foreman, the liberal foreman of the of the 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:09,400 place and we had the the racist shops, labor shops, student and 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,680 spike. We came in as as Paddy. 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,160 The public loved it, but it got come under the old thing again 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,520 that they called it the powers that be who take who put shows 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,920 on and take them off call it racist Mr. Point entirely. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,520 And so after six weeks 6 shows, we came off the air and didn't 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:01:06,560 come back anymore. Hello and welcome to Goon Pod. 9 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,680 Flying in the face of those Facebook groups that insist TV 10 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,120 was better in the old days. Well, some of it was, but it 11 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,720 it's been a bit of a running joke since this podcast began 12 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,920 that the one thing we would never cover, mainly for reasons 13 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:26,080 of taste and decency, would be Spike Milligan's mid 70s sitcom 14 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,800 The Melting Pot. However, we never said anything 15 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,680 about not covering an earlier sitcom which contained similar 16 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,400 themes. And when my guest today 17 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,720 suggested it, I must admit I had my reservations. 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,440 But we decided that we're going to talk about it and try not to 19 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,840 mention any of the racism or offensive language. 20 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,840 So thanks for listening everyone, and I'll see you next 21 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,120 week. Only kidding. 22 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,760 And that person you heard chuckling there politely is my 23 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,960 very special guest, the man to blame for all this. 24 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,280 It is returning guest John Williams. 25 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:05,720 Hi, Tyler. Good to be back. 26 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Great to have you back, John. Thank you. 27 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,960 Thank you so much. I've been listening to you 28 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,840 recently because you are what are you Co host of a great new 29 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 podcast called World of Tally. Yeah, that's right. 30 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:20,280 It's me and Neil Perriman. We used to kind of work together 31 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,120 podcasting many years ago now on Tacky on TV. 32 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,760 And just this year we decided to do something different and go 33 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,240 for it again. And, you know, we thought the 34 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,920 Internet was crying out for, for two men in their 50s talking 35 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,400 about television. It's just, you know, it's, it's 36 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,800 actually our USP basically. Yeah, it's quite ambitious. 37 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,720 Quite ambitious because you intend to cover every television 38 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,640 program ever produced. Well, yes, yeah, in no 39 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:46,320 particular order. We, you know, you've got to 40 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:47,240 reach for the stars, haven't you? 41 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,440 Go big. I listened to what I listened to 42 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:57,120 most recently. God forgive You was what Don't 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,000 Drink the Water with Stephen Lewis and and and Pat Coombs, 44 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,400 which is is a rather an edifying sitcom from the 1970s. 45 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:11,200 Yes, I think certainly the kind of your your listeners will 46 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,120 probably that would, I would probably advise them to go to 47 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,520 that one first if they were to go and listen to some world of 48 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,720 Telepodcast because you know, it's focusing on the comedy and 49 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,200 it's focusing on the kind of type of comedy that though I 50 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,720 think the thing the thing that we try and do is we try and be 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,200 quite fair and generally positive without actively sort 52 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,560 of making stuff up. And I think it's an interesting 53 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:32,640 one. They don't drink the water 54 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,080 because it didn't meet all the expert expectations, maybe the 55 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,040 very worst expectations that you might think. 56 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 So it was interesting from that point of view, I think. 57 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,360 Yeah, but there's possibly one sitcom which you won't be 58 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,280 covering on World of Telly. Oh, you may do. 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:49,960 You may decide actually, hey, why not? 60 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,760 Why not do it again? But it's the sitcom that we are 61 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,640 going to talk about today, or try to talk about, try and skirt 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:03,680 around maybe, Which is the 1969 LWT sitcom Curry and Chips. 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:04,720 Oh. My God. 64 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,920 Oh Craigy. Oh God, Oh dear. 65 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,080 Both pandy mornings. Bloody cold, bloody cold, bloody 66 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,640 it. Shouldn't be cold. 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,839 It wouldn't be cold if you'd come down when I. 68 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,320 Called you. I wasn't talking about the 69 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,480 party, I was talking about the weather. 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,040 Would it be just as Buddy called about to come down when you call 71 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,800 me? Well, eat your porridge, that 72 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,600 will soon warm your cockles. All that'll do your good. 73 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:30,880 That's the stuff for the cold weather. 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,040 That's why the Scotsman have it. Then they can have bare legs, 75 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,720 short kilts, and nothing underneath. 76 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,160 Nothing, nothing underneath this weather they'll get frost on 77 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:45,040 Doodle. That's the only thing he hasn't 78 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:52,360 been on. This was broadcast right during 79 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,920 the sort of dying gasps of the 1960s. 80 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,320 It it ended a week shy of 1970, began in N69 and I feel, I don't 81 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,280 know about you John, I feel it feels much more of a 70s sitcom 82 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:08,840 than a 60s one. Yeah, I think, I think it does. 83 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,000 I think it does. And it falls. 84 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,880 I mean, part of that is because of the, of the, of the fact that 85 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:19,160 a lot of those kind of comedies that ran into the 70s were kind 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,480 of LWT commissions because LWBT had only started in sort of late 87 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,440 68. So I think there's a lot of 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,640 there was a lot of emphasis on sitcom and a lot of, as I said, 89 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,040 a lot of the ones that either ran into the 70s or had spin 90 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,360 offs that went into the 70s and were characterized. 91 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,560 So you've got, you know, you've got things like Police, Sir, 92 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,760 which ran for ages, that two spin off series you've got on 93 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,680 the buses and as we just mentioned, the spin off don't 94 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,320 don't drink the water and the Doctor in the house endless spin 95 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,280 off series of that. And so there's a characteristic 96 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,080 and I think Korean chips does feel very much in that mould. 97 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,760 I mean, it was it was commissioned by Frank Muir. 98 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,880 And like, like police are in on the buses and Frank Muir though 99 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,520 leaves that leaves that out of his autobiography. 100 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,120 He mentions the other ones, but Korean Chips is conspicuous by 101 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,760 its absence. Right, OK, because the LWT was 102 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,000 like you say, it was barely a year old when this show 103 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,000 premiered and when, but when it began, I believe it was. 104 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,040 LWT was rather lofty ambitions to be quite highfalutin. 105 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,680 Yes, that that's, that's, that's exactly it. 106 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,640 The the ITA, who we'll be talking about later, the 107 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,560 Independent Television Authority who regulated the channel when 108 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,000 the franchises came up for, for renewal in the franchise round 109 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,840 started because it was London then was associated Rediffusion 110 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:45,760 or Rediffusion and ABC. And there was a perception that 111 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,680 even though these channels, these regional companies were 112 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,200 very successful and had very high viewing figures, they were 113 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,080 a bit unedifying, which is ironically in terms of what 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,320 came, what came next. But LWT, which was David Frost, 115 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:04,600 amongst others, Peacock who was came from the BBC, BBC2 and and 116 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,000 they and they got all these people like Frank Muir, various 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,880 other Jimmy Hill to be a head of sport. 118 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,480 And it was this they put together this amazing document 119 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,400 saying this is what we'll do. And it was, you know, Brecht in 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:22,520 the evenings and opera and avant-garde kind of work and all 121 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,240 of this kind of stuff. And when they when, when it 122 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,000 started, unfortunately. Oh yeah. 123 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,240 David Frost, virtually, you know, all the time David Frost 124 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:31,760 was written. So he had three programs that 125 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,680 are around. Each which gets which which gets 126 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,600 referred to in an episode of Curry and. 127 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,360 Chips it does. He was ubiquitous and at that 128 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,040 this start because of one rate there was there was it was a 129 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,400 disaster anyway for LWT because the BBC trained all their 130 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,320 firepower on the weekend and that really, really made LGBT 131 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,280 suffer. Some of the other channels like 132 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Lou Gray, the ATV was really annoyed that he'd lost the 133 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,320 weekend franchise in sorry the weekend franchise in London. 134 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,000 Sorry, ABC wasn't London, it was the North. 135 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,720 But yeah, so ATV at the weekend used to be the London and Lou 136 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,280 Grade resented it for the rest of his life that he lost out on 137 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,160 London. And so he politics against LWT 138 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,920 refused to show frost all all the different frost programs and 139 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,760 things like that. So they were in a really 140 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,280 terrible state very quickly in terms of their even talks that 141 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,680 Thames, who were the new company for weekday London, might have 142 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,400 to take over LWT because it was doing so badly. 143 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,320 Some of the things that helped, it was bizarrely was Rupert 144 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,720 Murdoch came in and worked on the board of LBT and tried to 145 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,000 take it over before there was state intervention if you like 146 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,799 from the ITA. But basically, LBT quickly 147 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,280 changed track and their only successes that kept them going 148 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,600 with things like the Front Bureau Commission's Light on the 149 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,800 buses, Please Sir, the Doctor in the house things. 150 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,600 And when they announced the new season in July 1969, the 151 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,560 forthcoming autumn season, they got lambasted by the press 152 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:03,320 because basically it was all comedy and light entertainment, 153 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,360 none of your highfalutin stuff that had all basically all gone. 154 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,800 And so they got quite criticized. 155 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,480 And the Financial Times rather cruelly compare the newly 156 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,760 announced schedule to the original LWT submission to the 157 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,680 ITA, which had been leaked. And they couldn't have been more 158 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:21,320 separate. And Korean chips was very 159 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,240 prominently mentioned in this interesting Spate, Johnny Spate, 160 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,760 who wrote Korean Chips. Johnny Spate was part of the 161 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,280 sort of slight kind of highbrow nature of the start of LWT 162 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,600 because he'd written the play called If there weren't any 163 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,000 Blacks, you'd have to invent them. 164 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,760 And that had been commissioned by the BBCA few years before and 165 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,400 then the BBC had got cold feet and didn't want to make it 166 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,760 transmit it. So they released it back to 167 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,280 spate We diffusion then decided that they would make it and then 168 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,960 they got cold feet. And then as soon as LGBT came 169 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,880 in, it was like, Johnny, come along, let's get let's get this 170 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,960 made. And so if you win any blacks, 171 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,640 which is very Beckettian, it's very kind of Samuel Beckett, I 172 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,120 would say style play, maybe Ian Escu as well. 173 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,600 It's quite experimental. It has some good points. 174 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,280 It was later remade in the in the in 1974 by LWT as well. 175 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,400 And that that, but you have to remember that Johnny Spate who 176 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,440 wrote that he'd written it a number of years before. 177 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,880 In fact, he'd written it pre till the author's depart, I 178 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,040 think all right at the very start. 179 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,880 So this that was that was LGBT mark one. 180 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,080 And then you've got what was rapidly becoming LGBT Mark 2, 181 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,600 which was we rely very heavily on the sitcom and what what 182 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,400 could be described as vulgar lowest common denominator 183 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:39,760 sitcoms. Yeah. 184 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,240 OK. So, yeah, so you mentioned 185 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,600 obviously, yeah, it's created by Johnny Spake, but also Spike 186 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,000 Milligan. Those two are the creative 187 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,280 forces behind the sitcom. It was also, somewhat 188 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,720 ironically, the first colour LWT sitcom. 189 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:03,960 And, well, we're not going to. You and I are not here to clutch 190 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,240 our pearls and belabour the point that it was very much of 191 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,200 its time. Because in some ways it really 192 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,880 wasn't, if you look at the backlash and the response. 193 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,280 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the 194 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,400 things that sometimes you get that strange reaction when you 195 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,080 might look at something like Korean chips and wince at the 196 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,760 fact that it's kind of like it uses racial epithets all the 197 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,640 time. It's quite, there's quite a lot 198 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,560 of it's really unpleasant as well. 199 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,600 But the which I'm sure we're going to talk a little bit about 200 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480 some aspects of it which just don't seem it's pretty mildly 201 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,240 very, very sitcom like. But you. 202 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,400 Yeah. And I think that it's too often 203 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,160 people say, Oh, well, that was just how things were then. 204 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,720 Now we're just looking at it through the prism of today 205 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,960 rather than look at but Korean chips, as you say, was massively 206 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,160 controversial at the time. It was, it had its supporters, 207 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,040 sure, but it was it was a kind of, it was a news. 208 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,480 It was from front pages reporting on it had ITA 209 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,800 intervention with it. It had race Relations board 210 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,000 constantly being talked about, even though ultimately it had 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,880 nothing to do with the Race relations board, the production 212 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,920 of ATV program. But there was and, and it had, 213 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,000 even though this was downplayed at the time, the ITA in 214 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,760 particular got bombarded by letters of complaint about the 215 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,040 program. So let's, we have to, we have to 216 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,280 dismiss the idea that this was fine in it's time, but not now. 217 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,360 It wasn't fine in it's time. It 'cause it was a real kind of 218 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,560 like a point of controversy. Yeah, absolutely. 219 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,880 And by the way, I asked my I asked my wife's uncle Roger to 220 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,720 join us to give us the case for the defence. 221 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:47,240 But he thinks podcast awoke. OK, so this it, it's a very 222 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,720 slight sitcom in the sense that there's a lot of talking, 223 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,000 there's a hell of a lot of talking. 224 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,360 There's not much character development as such. 225 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,360 And it's more or less set. It's got 22 settings, a factory 226 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,800 floor and and like a boarding house, but it's it's mainly set 227 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,360 in the Lily crap limited factory. 228 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,840 Yeah, which the name itself just, you know, in which they 229 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,200 manufacture novelty items and and jokes and whoopee cushions 230 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,960 and things like that. And and it features Spike 231 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:30,200 Milligan in brown face playing an Irishman of Pakistani 232 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,120 heritage called Kevin O'Grady, which provides a lot of comedy 233 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:41,720 mileage, as you can imagine, and also stars Eric Sykes as Arthur 234 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:49,080 Blankensop, who who's the one apart from Kevin himself and 235 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,720 possibly the the landlady Arthur is, is the one kind of voice of 236 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,280 reason, maybe the sort of moderate character in this 237 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,800 whole. He sort of is, but then on the 238 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,920 other hand, I think Spate is trying to set him up as a figure 239 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,440 of ridicule as well, because it's Spate sort of general, 240 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,720 all-purpose kind of bashing all corners. 241 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,040 I think he's supposed to represent a kind of ineffectual 242 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,960 liberal. So yes, well, yes, but he's also 243 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,600 very anti Harold Wilson. That I have to say that in the 244 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,320 in the last episode when there was a tremendously long rant by 245 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,760 by that character, Eric Sykes's character, I did wonder if some 246 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,240 of Sykes is true about it because it was classic about 247 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,920 taxation, wasn't it? Yes. 248 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,760 And you just, you just get that they were getting a lot of 249 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,200 things off their chest at this point. 250 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,360 We would sooner have the Royal Family in Buckingham Palace and 251 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,800 your Wilson family any day, mate. 252 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,960 Make no mistake, if the Royals moved out, your Wilson have been 253 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,320 there like a shot with that cat in a basket. 254 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,080 Listen, and it wouldn't be Buckingham Palace. 255 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,880 It could be the Gables and it wouldn't be Shifty Arrow. 256 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,880 It'd be Popular Arrow. Everybody's friend dog marching 257 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,560 up and down, lad. There's a nice bit of hot pot in 258 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,720 the throne room. Listen. 259 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,320 And while you're on about it, I'll tell you something else 260 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,440 too. He'd ban the pill if he could. 261 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,120 Get off at it. He would. 262 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,200 He would. He doesn't like it any more than 263 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,320 your Pope does, but he knows as long as his Labour lot breeds, 264 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,080 the more votes that he gets. Spate we again, we'll come to 265 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,200 this later. Properly Spate was was a self 266 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,040 confessed socialist, wasn't he? Yeah, but was he? 267 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,280 Was he died in the wall Labourite or or was he sort of 268 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,760 beyond that? I think I, I think he always 269 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,880 identified, I think he was to the left. 270 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,600 Probably he felt himself to be to the left of the because he 271 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,400 came from an incredibly poor background and and you know, he 272 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,640 kind of left school quite early and he so I think he felt he was 273 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,280 very left wing and sort of slightly beyond party politics 274 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,200 in that sense, But I'm not sure I would. 275 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,680 Some of his better plays, I think, and and some of the best 276 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,120 of his sitcom work, like the early series of Till Death is 277 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,400 due part, which was just a few years before Korean chips sort 278 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,880 of had this quite great year for dialogue. 279 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,160 Great ear for dialogue, great ear for kind of what what's 280 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,560 funny, but also how ridiculous some people's opinions are 281 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,200 across the board and how people can get sort of locked into 282 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,440 their their opinions and their and their biases. 283 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,600 And I think he was a sort of, you know, equal opportunities in 284 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,280 that respect and that you needed to he he was looking more at the 285 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,760 sort of fundamental human condition, if you like, rather 286 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,560 than necessarily the party politics of it. 287 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,720 And was very alive to the fact that some of the people who are 288 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,960 progressive might have their own biases and prejudices that that 289 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,160 come through and but they don't they don't see that they do have 290 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,480 them. So isn't it very interesting 291 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,320 writer. But I think that unfortunately 292 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,520 with Spate, I think his best moments were leading up to sort 293 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,040 of around about the penultimate series of Till Death is Depart 294 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,520 in the 60's, the black and white ones. 295 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,240 And really, I don't think he really completely flourished 296 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,640 again after that, partly because he went through very well 297 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,079 documented struggle with alcoholism. 298 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,280 It's exactly around the time when it's worse, when Korean 299 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,599 chips came about. Yeah, yeah, I had some very 300 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,040 interesting bedtime reading the other night because you shared 301 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,720 what you call it, an academic paper. 302 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,040 Yes. Written, written by the 303 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:38,040 historian and, and writer Brett Beber on, on Korean Chips, which 304 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,360 was very interesting or if quite lengthy. 305 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,960 And I, there's a passage here that I just wanted to, to, to 306 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,880 quote because I think it gives an interesting sort of overview 307 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,120 of, of the show. He writes. 308 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,880 Johnny Spate and Spike Milligan, the program's creators, believe 309 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,280 that forwarding vulgar racial epithets and bigoted humour put 310 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,160 English attitudes to immigration under examination. 311 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,640 But the program proved popular because of its appeal to white 312 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,160 workers, who viewed depictions of the challenges of integrating 313 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,960 non white workers in a comedic context with some pleasure. 314 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,880 The comedy resonated with working class anxieties but 315 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,320 negated the program's utility as progressive parody. 316 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,680 Tyler Adams News at 10. But you know, it's quite, it's 317 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,360 basically what he's saying there, that he's saying that 318 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,440 they that both Milligan and Spake went into this with the 319 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,680 best intentions, but it kind of backfired because the wrong 320 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,080 people enjoyed it. That's the kind of classic thing 321 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,320 about these kind of these kind of programs, isn't it? 322 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,160 It's, it's the difficult he goes into love Thy Neighbor, which 323 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,000 was later. It's, it's difficult. 324 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,320 I think the the the reason that spate fell out with the BBC 325 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,120 about till death is depart was the BBC got increasingly 326 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,000 uncomfortable that people were liking the program for the wrong 327 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,200 reasons. I think that's basically can be 328 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,560 can sum up where they got to with Johnny Spade. 329 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,880 And I think the simple fact is that, you know, even though now 330 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,840 some of the earlier till death is depart can be a bit 331 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,480 uncomfortable, then, you know, they're sharp, they're sharply 332 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,120 written. They're really they've got that. 333 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:22,920 There's some really fascinating, not flights of fancy exactly, 334 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,800 but where the arguments take people can be very, very funny, 335 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,160 but also really kind of quite profound at times. 336 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,680 I think that to do things like this, to do the things then I'm 337 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,120 going to explore, put the spotlight on English attitudes 338 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,960 to racism and spake thought racism was fundamentally 339 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,200 ridiculous and I'm going to do that. 340 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,360 You need to be very good. You need to do it. 341 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,800 You need to be be right on it in order to write down. 342 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,000 I think he he had been I think by the time the Korean chips 343 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,360 came around, as you say, it was based on an idea by Spike 344 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,120 Milligan. I think Spike was in no 345 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:02,800 condition to do to give the this kind of thing the the attention 346 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,880 it really deserves if you're going to try and do that. 347 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,200 He was in a bad way. There's a story in the Norma 348 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Farnes memoir of Spike Milligan that she became the associate 349 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,760 producer and was responsible, frankly, a very debt adeptly 350 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,560 gave her the job of associate producer and she thought that 351 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,000 was great. But then he told her that means 352 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,480 you're going to have to get Johnny to deliver his scripts. 353 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,720 On time, which ended up with her going into pubs where he was 354 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,240 drunk out of his mind playing the drums in a jazz band. 355 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,640 And he would literally get dragged to a table and he would 356 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,960 write notes on beer mats, hand it over to her. 357 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,680 And then she would go over, give it to Spike and Eric, who would 358 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,400 desperately try and improvise something. 359 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,000 So a lot of this, you can tell they're like, it's like the 360 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,600 classic in Towards the end of Two Deaths Depart where they 361 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,880 have a double Christmas episode where everybody's just having a 362 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,160 singer log in the pub because Spate didn't deliver and they 363 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:55,840 thought they'd get around. And this is the same here. 364 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,920 The last episode is that Boxing Day one where there's singing, 365 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,400 dancing. It's a mess, yeah. 366 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,560 It's AI was, as I often do, talking to friends about this, 367 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,320 this show Spate wasn't going in for snappy dialogue. 368 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,880 There was, there was a lot of of kind of just desert tree 369 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,520 conversations between characters that often sort of trailed off 370 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,200 and and just, and also went on far too long, far, far, far too 371 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,760 long and didn't seem to have any endpoint. 372 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,760 There's a really good example of that I think in some episodes, I 373 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,480 think it's episode 5, where there's a character called 374 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,720 Smelly, played by Sam Kidd, and everybody sort of hates him. 375 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,400 And that's an interesting one because at times it's clear that 376 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,880 some of the people actually much prefer Paddy to Smelly. 377 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,320 But the racist union boss played by Norman Rossington, who's 378 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,800 called Norman basically. Basically, even though he hates 379 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,080 Smelly as well, he feels he's going to protect him because 380 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,720 he's an Englishman. And there are some unending 381 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,360 monologues from Smelly where he just chances on and on. 382 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,080 We had run in bleeding, doctors come round to our house and put 383 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,440 my Mrs. to bed for a week. She needs rest. 384 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,760 He said bloody cheek, she needs rest. 385 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,360 I said who's going to cook my dinner, Who's going to cook my 386 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,680 dinner while she's laying in bed with her leg up? 387 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,160 A bloody cheek? I said how would you like it if 388 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,480 I was to go round to your house and put your Mrs. to bed for a 389 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,680 week so you've got no bloody dinner? 390 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,920 A how would you like? Because I had him there, didn't 391 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,320 know I had him and got the answer for that fee. 392 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,760 So he said your wife is ill. Bloody cheek. 393 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,840 I said, how would you know whether my wife was ill or not 394 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,040 when I come out to see you and told you that I was ill? 395 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,840 You couldn't find nothing wrong with me, could you? 396 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,440 Because he was baffled. He was, you see, baffled with 397 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,080 what I had. You see, I said, look, just 398 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,800 because you're baffled with what I've got, I don't mean to say. 399 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:06,120 I don't mean to say that I ain't got it and he never gave me no 400 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,880 bloody certificate neither. I had a couple of tickets for 401 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,280 the replay, the football, you know. 402 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,000 The important thing when we say, you know, we didn't really say 403 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,160 at the start, is if you think we're neglecting the comedy in 404 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,440 Korean chips, there is little It is not funny. 405 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,640 It is not a funny program. I think the funniest thing, the 406 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,520 only thing that really made me laugh because I always forget 407 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,200 it, is that the landlady is called Mrs. Bartok, which is 408 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,000 which is which is a funny moment. 409 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,400 But The thing is, at the very start of the. 410 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,680 First, yeah, but that, that that's just in order that 411 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,880 Spike's character can call him Mrs. Buttock. 412 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,360 Yes, that's true. I just thought Bartok was a kind 413 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,360 of like kind of incongruous name for a person. 414 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:50,240 But the but then there are bits where the audience, like at the 415 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,360 start of episode 1 are laughing a lot because there's lots of 416 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,720 practical jokes with the with the silly novelties and things 417 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,120 like that. And they do shriek at some of 418 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:04,360 the that horrible sort of racist abuse that's in it, but there's 419 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:06,280 also a lot of silence from the audience. 420 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,280 I thought it was really notable that in some of the episodes 421 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,120 they don't. There's not a titter, there's 422 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:13,840 not a noise. There was 1 episode, the one 423 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,040 where it begins in a police station. 424 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,000 And that's terrific, that episode. 425 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:27,640 Oh God, and I made a note here. There's absolutely 0 laughter 426 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,600 from the audience for the first at least 2 minutes of the 427 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,760 episode. Yeah, and then there's a really 428 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,120 long, the other location, I suppose. 429 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,160 It's a pub, isn't it? There's a really long scene at 430 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,880 the end, an aimless, completely aimless scene in the pub where 431 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,440 again there's like a Stony, crickets chirping, kind of 432 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,160 silence going on. Yeah. 433 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,840 The other thing, of course, that makes the whole idea to green 434 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,240 light this show bizarre if you look at it in terms of when it 435 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,040 went out was it was only one year after the rivers of blood 436 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,560 speech. And and Enoch Powell is 437 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,000 frequently mentioned in carrying chips in in in approving tones 438 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,720 by some of the factory workers, although he does often, I think 439 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,600 it's smelly. Sam Kidd refers to him as 440 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,800 eunuch. Brett Bebber suggests that that 441 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,520 might be Johnny Spate's attempt to emasculate Powell. 442 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,840 Yeah, I think, I think so. I think it's. 443 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,880 Again, I think Spate's argument would be, I am showing you a 444 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,560 factory, and this is the kind of things that people in the 445 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,200 factories that really exist will be saying. 446 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,880 And Powell, you know, obviously the Dockers went on a March in 447 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,000 favor of Powell after the Rivers of Blood speech. 448 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,080 So my, my, and that's doubtless true. 449 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,360 But the problem is with this is you're, you are just, you're not 450 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,760 seeing much of A counter argument to the to the racism 451 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,560 that's expressed. And I think it's quite 452 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,880 disturbing at times in the first episode, in the second-half of 453 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,240 the first episode, when they're in a pub, there's a character 454 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,200 called Tom who's really kind of almost like violently. 455 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,600 You think he's on the verge of violence at all times? 456 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,280 Oh, sorry. Keep that thought. 457 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,600 Yes, listeners will have heard me sighing or muttering, as 458 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,400 you've mentioned various character names. 459 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,120 There's a reason for that. OK, Because they're all almost 460 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:22,400 to a man. Awful. 461 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,760 But. But anyway, back to Tom. 462 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,960 Yeah, yes. Tom-tom is basically he he when 463 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,400 Paddy comes into the pub with author that excites his 464 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,440 character. He's so incredibly hostile and 465 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,480 it there's there's we should say that there's a there's Kenny 466 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,040 Lynch is in it playing Kenny. One of the other things that's 467 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,680 weirdly lazy about this is most of them have the same name as 468 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,400 their real name, don't they, which is just kind of will this 469 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,080 do? Can we be bothered to even know 470 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,440 that we've got a different name? And one of the things that's 471 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,920 played upon is that Kenny Lynch is obviously black, but he's 472 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,480 born in Britain and therefore he resents Paddy because of the 473 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,360 fact that he he doesn't, you know, he doesn't approve of 474 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,720 immigrants either. But there's a horrible bit where 475 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,360 Tom says to him, you know, something like that Kenny Lynch 476 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,920 is nearly the same as the others, the same as the others. 477 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,000 And then this Tom says nearly the same, but not the same. 478 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,200 And it's just, it's not that there's no, there's no sort of 479 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,880 flavor. There's that sort of thing about 480 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,440 what is this actually achieving? All it is is you're just showing 481 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,080 someone, even if it is Spike Milligan in, you know, it 482 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,880 browned up. And then as he as he as the 483 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,480 argument progresses, he shouts at Paddy and just generally, 484 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,480 let's get them all home and take your cat food with you. 485 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:49,280 It's it's it's deeply unpleasant and does the audience, you know, 486 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,280 it's a very weird thing to listen to because the audience I 487 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,800 don't think are necessarily appreciate it. 488 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,040 They may do at the start, but I think it's, you know, some 489 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,800 people, some of them were laughing, but it's not what you 490 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,440 get from AI don't know on the buses even kind of audience. 491 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,440 Reaction. No, he's part of me wondered 492 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,880 whether, you know, like the first couple of episodes of 493 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Monty Python's Flying Circus that bust in some some people 494 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,720 from Poland or something. Made me think a similar scenario 495 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,880 here. The language in this show, 496 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:27,320 derogatory language, is unbelievable and it would have 497 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,880 been unbelievable. Then the I mean, OK, the, the 498 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,640 word bloody is banded about so much that it was used over 50 499 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,200 times in one episode. I think there was, I think it 500 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,600 was episode 5, although I was by that point I was almost my head, 501 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,480 my head and my hands crying. But there's and I'm not we're we 502 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,560 are certainly not going to use the words that are used in the 503 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,120 show, but there are words such as the N word, the S word, the 504 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:03,760 the W word, the C word, the N word again, P word so many. 505 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,040 And often that would be the cause of viewers complaints, you 506 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,160 know, when they're writing to to newspapers and whatnot. 507 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,800 It wasn't the actual racism. It was the language you 508 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,360 mentioned about the fact that it was. 509 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,840 It was announced as part of LW TS new season in in mid 69 and 510 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,320 Johnny Spate was quoted as saying that there will be 511 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,080 erections when the series is shown. 512 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:32,800 What do you think he meant by that? 513 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,000 He just knew that it was going to be a cat among the pigeons 514 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,640 kind of scenario. I think so. 515 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,240 I mean there's elements of him talking it up, you know, 516 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,760 obviously as well, but there But no, I think I think till death 517 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,360 had become so controversial at the BBC and he'd had a big kind 518 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,720 of spat with them. And I think, you know, the fact 519 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,080 that his play, If there weren't Any Blacks was going to be, was 520 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,520 on. And that had been controversial 521 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,640 because it had been dropped. I think he just thought that 522 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,520 anything he did that was touching on themes about racism 523 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,240 would kick off. And because this was a new 524 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,760 channel which had very popular sitcoms, if nothing else, that 525 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,640 it would be, you know, I think LDBT. 526 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,160 The thing is LDBT were pivoting towards sitcoms. 527 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,560 But I think with the fact that they were willing to show Korean 528 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,000 chips, I think they were basically trying to show that 529 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,600 they they could go a bit further than some of the other channels 530 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,920 might have done in the same way that they used, they transmitted 531 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,560 some of his other work. So I think he knew for that 532 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,160 reason that that it was, it would cause a problem. 533 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,280 But I mean, it did 'cause a problem, but maybe not in the 534 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,720 way that initially he thought it would. 535 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,200 And it was going to be scheduled. 536 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,800 Well, the ITA insisted that it be scheduled not before 9:30 in 537 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,920 the evening, but I think Harlech had it scheduled for 8:30. 538 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,520 Yeah. But eventually it went out at 539 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,240 10:30 I believe. Yeah, that's right. 540 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,160 I mean, The thing is the ITA came up with this at the very 541 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,240 last minute, you know, literally on like the 20. 542 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:10,080 It was due to start on the 21st in most regions and it was on 543 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,680 the 20th. The ITA said it cannot because 544 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,640 it was going to be basically most regions it was going to be 545 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,480 830 and it was so last minute because Harlech, we're going to 546 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,240 show it on the 20th and they had it scheduled for 8:30 and time 547 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,440 tease, we're going to show it on the Friday at 7:30. 548 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,440 So it caused a real Rook. And then in the end, the first 549 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,360 episode went out at 10:30, which is significantly different to 550 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,840 how they were plugging it in the TV Times because there was a, 551 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,080 you know, his leading interview with Sykes and Milligan for it. 552 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,240 And they were all saying, watch it at 8:30. 553 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,440 And, and, but the reason apparently, it's not absolutely 554 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,600 definitive, but the reason apparently that it caused such 555 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,560 a, they decided that it had to go late wasn't necessarily to do 556 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,640 with all the racial epithets and the swearing. 557 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,160 It was to do with the fact that there was a series of jokes 558 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,240 about homosexuals towards the end of the first episode. 559 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,760 Oh God, yes. Which is basically that Eric 560 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,080 Sykes has been nice to Paddy and has invited him back to stay in 561 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,320 his lodgings, but then gets the idea into his head. 562 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,960 The other thing we should mention is the Eric Sykes 563 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,320 character. You find out later he's actually 564 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,080 a virgin, isn't? He I didn't pick up on that. 565 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,000 Yeah, they say. I think it's in episode 5. 566 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,720 He talks about how he's saving himself. 567 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,360 Oh, it must have been. It's something at that point. 568 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,760 Don't worry, I mean, to do a close line reading of this 569 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,320 program would take it out of anyone. 570 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,800 To be honest. It's kind of it's you just want 571 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,920 to be doing anything else at times rather than watching it if 572 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,520 you've seen a few episodes. But no, I think that the but 573 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,800 he's absolutely terrified that Paddy is going to, you know, 574 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,720 kind of molest him in the night. And then they had another joke 575 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:52,960 at the end. We'd say tweet slightly. 576 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,240 I forget the details now that actually it was looked like 577 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,000 despite the Milligan's character, Paddy wasn't going to 578 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,760 have spent the night with Mrs. Bartok. 579 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,040 That's right. And they give that impression in 580 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,000 the transmitted episode. But then she comes out of 581 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,600 another room. But I think that was changed 582 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,240 somehow because they didn't want to have anyway that it was 583 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,320 probably that that made it get delayed until after 9:30. 584 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,480 Yes. So you've got in the first 585 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:22,480 episode, you've got racism, you've got sexism, you've got 586 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,680 cracks at religion. And and then just to just to 587 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,800 sort of tie it all up with a neat little bow at the end, you 588 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,280 get homophobia and and the P word. 589 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,600 Yes, it's it's, yeah. It's, I mean, you know, the 590 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,360 there isn't, that's the nearest it comes to having any kind of 591 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,120 narrative thrust, if you pardon the expression, towards the end 592 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,480 of the program because because the 1st 2 episodes at least, 593 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,800 they don't have anything like the semblance of a sitcom plot. 594 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,640 There's nothing you know, it's people arguing in workplace or 595 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,880 at home. Yeah, episode 3 has AI wrote in 596 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,240 my notes. At last, a proper sitcom plot. 597 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,840 Yes, it is. Even though it's tried and 598 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,199 tested and and hackneyed. It's the most hackneyed the 599 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,920 plots but yeah Paddy wins the pools but surprised. 600 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,480 Surprised he hasn't posted the coupon. 601 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,239 Yeah. But let's let's quickly just run 602 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000 through the cast. Yeah, we've, we've mentioned 603 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,880 Eric Sykes of course and and he and Spikes relationship of 604 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,000 course as well documented good friends worked together many 605 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,600 times. Yeah, Arthur Blankensop is, is 606 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:36,080 foreman of the of the factory. Is that what he is? 607 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,080 Yeah, I think, well, is Norman Rossington the foreman? 608 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,800 Well, he's the shop stewards, was that? 609 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,520 Different, I think it is. I think Eric cites is more sort 610 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,159 of site middle management, isn't he? 611 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:47,520 He's sort of got middle management piece. 612 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,639 But nobody respects him and he's got no, no control. 613 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,960 And and he, he tries to be sympathetic towards Kevin 614 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,320 O'Grady Spike, who, yeah, they also call, well, Paddy sort of. 615 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,840 So Spike's character is, goes to the labour exchange and is sent 616 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,200 to Lily Craps to more or less sweep the floor. 617 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:19,040 That's his job. And he comes up against the the 618 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,000 cast of grotesques, shall we say, foremost among them Norman 619 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,080 Rossington. His character is is shop 620 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,480 Stewart. He's labour through and through, 621 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,640 but he's also a bigoted toss pot. 622 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,440 He really is. And he's quite aggressive. 623 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,760 He's he's thoroughly unpleasant. You're. 624 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,880 Not going to get very fiery going out sorting people you 625 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,320 know, telling how smelly he smells and accusing your 626 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,920 workmates of hanging a latch in the car. 627 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,560 See if you want to get on in this country. 628 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,200 Keep daft button. Keep a civil tongue you had. 629 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,600 But I tell truth, I doubt Krishna. 630 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,400 Just keep that button. And another thing if I catch him 631 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,040 messing around with the electoral critical, he's going 632 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,920 to be troubled you. Understand I caught. 633 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,000 Him and in a fuse. But I understand fuse, I mean 634 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,320 many fuses in Pakistan. That might be alright in bloody 635 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,000 Pakistan, but here you haven't got a ticket for this. 636 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,080 Ticket. What is this ticket? 637 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,560 Everyone got ticket. Its a union ticket. 638 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,920 You can't touch anything electrical in this factory 639 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,240 unless you have a union ticket. That's one of the rules. 640 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,240 I don't understand, I don't understand this country. 641 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,480 I work fast, I work hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. 642 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,520 I say not good, not good. I meant views good. 643 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,240 They said not good. Something else. 644 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,200 Sexual practice in this country is not good. 645 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,040 What's wrong with the sex in this country? 646 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,240 The sex in this country is good. You'll get anywhere else. 647 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,960 Not, not for Pakistan. It's not good enough for 648 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,880 Pakistani. Yeah, 24 in the room. 649 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,680 It's a bit difficult in it. There was an interview at the 650 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,720 time with Norman Rossington and he he did the same sort of line 651 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,640 about, you know, there are, I hate everything he stands for. 652 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,480 He's a ridiculous man. But there are people like that 653 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,800 and you have to portray them. And I just again go back to the 654 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,120 idea. It's a bit, you get that with 655 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,160 some of the critical reviews of Korean chips at the time. 656 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,800 Because it's Johnny Spate and loads of people really admired 657 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,080 Till Death is Due part for being this great satire. 658 00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:00,120 They give a lot of the benefit of the doubt, I think to this, 659 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,640 and I don't really doubt Spates kind of good faith to a point, 660 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,880 but sometimes I wonder whether he really knew what he was doing 661 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,440 around this point. Anyway, the idea that you have 662 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,160 to present these people like this, but you know, it's a it's 663 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,880 a mass peak time sitcom. Are you really going to explore 664 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,680 what the the kind of now, to be fair, there is one bit, I think 665 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,840 where there's a bit, what I would consider more kind of 666 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:31,600 character development in it of sorts is to do with Episode 4 667 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:38,560 when there's when Paddy gets caught in a race riot and when 668 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,080 they discuss it at the factory. Norman Rottington has ever said 669 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,800 to Kenny Lynch's character, well, you know, you don't, 670 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,520 you're not one of them, You're British. 671 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,080 And Kenny Lynch snaps at him and says, but if I'd have been out 672 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,960 on the street, they would have punched me just slightly punch 673 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,200 him. And that's a natural debate. 674 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,080 And you do a little bit more. I think there's a bit as well. 675 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,600 I don't think you could quite argue that Kenny gets 676 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,720 radicalized as the series goes on. 677 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,640 But he when Paddy's leaving in episode 5 because they decide 678 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,720 that he has to be the one to go, Kenny Lynch actually says, you 679 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,840 know, Kenny's character says that he'll miss him. 680 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,680 And then in the final episode when right up until the end 681 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,080 even, you know, it's a Christmas episode. 682 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,680 It was transmitted on Boxing Day. 683 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,840 Suddenly Norman Rossington says, oh, he's going to buy Paddy a 684 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,680 present and he buys him some Blanco so we can white up. 685 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:34,200 And both Arthur and Kenny chastise him for it and say, you 686 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,040 know, that's not on, that's really not on. 687 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,720 So you might just, if you squint, be able to argue that 688 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,880 there's a slight character development across the programme 689 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,240 with that. Yeah. 690 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,760 But I'm really giving it a lot of benefit of the doubt there. 691 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,880 Yeah, you've also got in the cast quite a young Geoffrey 692 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,040 Hughes, later known as Onslow from Keeping Appearances and 693 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,600 Eddie Yates and whatnot, and he plays a character called Young 694 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,160 Dick. Very nominative determinism. 695 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:09,080 And he just kind of, he just, he's like a sock in the wind. 696 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,920 He just blows any direction depending on what the script 697 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:17,040 dictates really. Sometimes he can be not Kevin's 698 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,880 best friend, but he can. He can defend Kevin and he can 699 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,960 also be Kenny's best friend. And then at other times he's 700 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,600 Norm's best friend. Echoing what Norm is ranting 701 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,200 about. Maybe he's just an 702 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,240 impressionable youth or sort of youth, I don't know. 703 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,600 Yeah, maybe it would be better if if cast someone who actually 704 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,480 at any time looked young. But to be fair, I don't think 705 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,160 Jeffrey, he's ever really looked young, did he? 706 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,840 So he doesn't seem to be the kind of callow youth. 707 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,080 He looks like a sort of died in the world, been working there 708 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,080 for like 15 years or something. Oh, right. 709 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,880 If we can just have a slight digression here, John, if you 710 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,560 don't mind. No, we always try and squeeze in 711 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,120 some some sort of beetles connection in in this show in 712 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,520 Goon pod. And there's there's quite a 713 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,600 significant beetles. There's there's a triumvirate of 714 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:10,480 Beetles bods in carrier chips. Do you know what I'm referring 715 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,160 to? Who I'm referring to here I can 716 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,360 see one because didn't Jeffrey Hughes do one of the voices in 717 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,080 Yellow Submarine? He did. 718 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,360 He played Paul. We did the voice of Paul in 719 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,720 Yellow Submarine. Kenny Lynch was touring with The 720 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:30,200 Beatles in the early days in 63. He was actually on the bus with 721 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,200 them when that when Paul and John wrote From Me to you. 722 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,640 And this was during the Helen Shapiro tour. 723 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,200 Oh yes, because didn't they get that title from the letters page 724 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,600 in the enemy or something? That's right, absolutely. 725 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,360 From us. From you to us or something. 726 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,000 And of course, Kenny Lynch was later one of the select band of 727 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,280 chances on the cover of Band on the Run. 728 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,600 Yes, of course. Norman Rossington, of course, 729 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,920 played, yes, played Norm the the Neil Espinal by any other name 730 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:04,640 in A Hard Day's Night. So he played Norm in that as 731 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,720 well, was it? Did he have a problem playing 732 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:07,880 characters that didn't have his name? 733 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,360 Seems extraordinary. Yeah, maybe, maybe he's maybe 734 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,920 this is the norm from the Hard Day's Night five years on having 735 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,120 he's been dismissed from The Beatles for being a racist, for 736 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,360 being a racist because he wanted them to play those segregated 737 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,880 concerts in the States and they they weren't having it. 738 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,280 And he's he's fallen on hard times and he's finally managed 739 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:30,920 to. Birmingham. 740 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,960 Moved to Birmingham, he's full of self loathing and he's he's 741 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:41,000 100% anti whatever utopia of love and inclusiveness The 742 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,920 Beatles are going on about a year or so earlier. 743 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,920 I think we've cracked it. There you go. 744 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,320 Actually, I love this fact. Paul McCartney once queued up 745 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,320 for his autograph when he when he opened when Norman Russellton 746 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,960 opened a bowling alley in Liverpool. 747 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,880 That's brilliant. And he was also Rossington was 748 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,600 also the only actor. This is a distinction. 749 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,160 He was the only actor to have appeared in films with both The 750 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,760 Beatles and Elvis. Oh. 751 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,200 Which Elvis film were they in? Oh God, there's, I don't know, 752 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,720 they're all, they're all the same, aren't they? 753 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,200 And just while we're on Hard Day's Night, do you know who 754 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,400 director Dick Lester's first choice for scriptwriter had 755 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,520 been? Oh, because it was. 756 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,480 It was Alan Owen, wasn't it? Eventually, wasn't it? 757 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,480 It was Alan Owen. Yeah. 758 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,080 But think, Think about what we're talking about today. 759 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,880 Oh, you put him on the spot now. Johnny Spate, Johnny Spade. 760 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,480 Johnny Spade, of course, of course. 761 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:36,960 Because Johnny Spade would have been. 762 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,520 Yeah, he was. Oh God, I've forgotten the name 763 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,040 of the comedian he used to write. 764 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,000 For that's, oh, Arthur Haines. Arthur Haines. 765 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,800 That's right. Yeah, We've been doing that 766 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,320 then. Just another quick sidebar. 767 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,640 So you've got Kenny, Kenny Lynch as Kenneth and and Jeffrey 768 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,240 Hughes's young Dick and they're often seen together in Curry and 769 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:03,480 chips and my father-in-law who's a keen woodturner to this day, 770 00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:09,480 owner of a number of lathes. He, he belonged to the same wood 771 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,520 turning group that Jeffrey Hughes did until his death 772 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,440 several years ago. So, so my father-in-law knew 773 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,520 Jeffrey Hughes said he was a lovely man and Kenny Lynch once 774 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,840 tried to pull my mother-in-law sometime in the sometime in the 775 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,480 late 60s and she rebuffed him, shall we say. 776 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,920 So you've. Got an extraordinary close 777 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,680 relationship to this program, haven't you, Tyler? 778 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,040 Really have, really have. It's meant to, meant to be. 779 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,120 Just quickly. You mentioned Tom, the character 780 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,200 Tom, who was that awful man in the pub. 781 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,440 He's played by an actor called Gerald Wells. 782 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,680 Gerald Wells. Now I recognise him, but I 783 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,880 couldn't place him. I couldn't place him when I 784 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,280 looked at the IMDb and I just did nothing there that I could. 785 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,360 That jumped out at me and then I realised, hang on, I know who he 786 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,960 is. He's one of the Irishmen in the 787 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,200 film The Naked Truth, the Peter Sellers film. 788 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,560 Have you ever seen that, John? Yeah, is the naked truth the one 789 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,720 where Sellers is a gangster type? 790 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,560 Or is that something else? Oh no, that's never let go. 791 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:15,840 Oh, never let go. No, no, no. 792 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,360 I have seen it. OK, well, the naked truth is 793 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,880 from a few years earlier, but there's a very probably the most 794 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,640 famous scene of that is, is Sellers character disguised as 795 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,520 an Irishman goes into a pub to try and secure some some Jhalak 796 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,520 night or explosives and he he falls in with a couple of 797 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,480 genuine Irishman and and gets a punch up the bracket at the end 798 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,600 of the scene. And Gerald Wells is one of those 799 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,320 Irishmen, very distinctive looking. 800 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,200 An English man, all right. My nose. 801 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,520 There's also actually in the first episode and you think he's 802 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,760 going to be a regular character, Ronnie Brody as Kelly the 803 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,080 Irishman, but he never, he never reappears, does he? 804 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,760 No. No, he's that guy who looks a 805 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,400 bit like the actor William Devane. 806 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,680 Yes, he does. Yes, he does. 807 00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:12,600 And finally, you've got Fanny Carby, who plays the landlady, 808 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,760 Mrs. Bartok. She's relatively sympathetic. 809 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,360 I mean, she's a bit prejudice, but she's, I think she's quite 810 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,760 sweet on Kevin, isn't she? Yeah, and and, and and. 811 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,520 Yeah. Smelly, played by Sam Kidd, 812 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,840 who's just vile. Just looks like he's been It's 813 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,880 looks like he's covered in a in a layer of grease and ashes. 814 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,880 I mean, a character, a character that's kind of got such a 815 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,760 problem that they when whenever he goes to the toilet, they put 816 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,640 an emergency light on in the fact that you warn people not to 817 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,440 go to the toilet. This is this is the 818 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,520 sophisticated level of humor we've got going. 819 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,400 On Yes Yeah, you and I both have watched all six. 820 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,440 There were only 6 episodes. Yeah, it was cancelled after the 821 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,240 last episode. Although they would LWT were 822 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,040 working for a second series, weren't they? 823 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,960 Yeah. I mean, basically there were a 824 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,160 lot we talked about. There were lots and lots of 825 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,000 front page things about how various associations of ethnic 826 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,240 minorities like the Indian Workers Association and others 827 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,920 really attacked the program. And then Clive Jenkins, the 828 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,480 Union Leader, threatened to report the serious of the Race 829 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,520 Relations board. Actually, this was a bit because 830 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,520 Race Relations Act had been, there's quite a few jokes in the 831 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,200 program about it. There's particular joke about 832 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,640 something to do with somebody advertised for a Scott to make 833 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,720 them porridge so they could get decent porridge and they got 834 00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:44,080 taken in front of the Race Relations board and that became 835 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,800 a mass. That was a comment about a 836 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,200 massive story that had happened that had been spun up pretty 837 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,120 much out of nowhere where yes, the Race Relations Board had 838 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,040 said you're not allowed to advertise for a Scott, but they 839 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,880 had no intention of prosecuting. But some of the opponents of the 840 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,680 Relation Relations Act span it up into a massive story, which 841 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,080 is why Johnny Spate references it in there. 842 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,520 But you can't report kind of TV broadcast programs to the 843 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,280 relations board or you couldn't at the time anyway. 844 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,720 So it's a bit of a a bit of a no no. 845 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,760 But as we talked about, you mentioned Brett Beber's article 846 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,640 that one of the really valuable things about that article is it 847 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,720 they've gone into the what it later became the IBA archive and 848 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:26,880 gone through all of the complaints that the program 849 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,280 received. And it was very clear as soon as 850 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,120 the Boxing Day episode went out. And we should, we should also be 851 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:36,440 specific about the fact that it, the Korean ships rated well. 852 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:43,280 It was the top program on Boxing Day for the, you know, and it 853 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:44,760 was, it was doing well in the ratings. 854 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,120 But I, the ITA made it very clear to LGBT that they couldn't 855 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,880 do another series. And apparently Rupert Murdoch 856 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,920 told that to Johnny Spate at one point, which still seems very 857 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,480 incongruous. Doesn't it thing Rupert Murdoch 858 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,080 tells you that? That you're too extreme. 859 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,960 Yes, exactly. And they just, yeah, just to say 860 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,160 that there was a bit of a follow up because there was for the 861 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:14,360 election in June 1970, the BBC, as soon as the polls close, they 862 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,840 put on, they used to do this quite a lot in those days. 863 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,240 They put a entertainment 25 minute thing called the polls 864 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,680 which had Alf go on it Eric Sykes and sorry, the Sykes and 865 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,800 Milligan's character from from Korean chips and he got an 866 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,800 absolute hammering in the press very. 867 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,200 Clever, these Brazilians. Oh, Brazilian. 868 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:41,320 Very clever make very good nuts. Yeah, I'll tell you. 869 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,040 I'll tell you someone else who's been bloody clever. 870 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,560 Oh. Oh, Wilson, he's been bloody 871 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,240 clever. It's not out there is on the 872 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:52,200 panel of experts with the innocent job. 873 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,800 I am not talking about Wilson your footballer, I am talking 874 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,680 about Wilson your bloody Prime Minister. 875 00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:59,720 Darling. Your darling bloody arrow, 876 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:01,240 Wilson pudding. Legs, yeah. 877 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,240 See why he's been so clever? He pulled a crafty 1. 878 00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:07,600 He has what calling a general election? 879 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,080 Join the World Cup for political chicanery. 880 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,200 That is because he knows that all the England supporters out 881 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,280 there are all Tories. LGBT tried to get it up and 882 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,000 running again. Cyril Bennett, who was director 883 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,600 of programs, wrote to them and said it's an important and 884 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,680 controversial series and time is not time. 885 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,200 I mean, it was only like a year and a half before. 886 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,280 Time has not diminished its relevance or humour, but it is 887 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,760 time has elapsed to make it suitable for transmission. 888 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,160 I really read that as the fact that LGBT was again going 889 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,640 through one of its periodic crises and they look probably 890 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,280 look back and thought Korean chips for all of the problems 891 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,520 got really good ratings. So let's repeat it and bring it 892 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,040 back for another series as well. But ITA just said no because 893 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,440 it's, you know, that, you know, the Pakistan community not 894 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,280 exactly subjects for laughter at the moment, which I think it's 895 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,040 perfectly level headed thing to say. 896 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,040 And I don't think it's much of A coincidence to say that it 897 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,840 wasn't that long after that that it was confirmed that Till 898 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,920 Death's Depart was coming back on the BBC One. 899 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,400 Right. OK, yeah, Cyril Bennett, Right. 900 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,960 Is Cyril Bennett the one who went out of a window? 901 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,600 Yes, well, the whole, I mean, I must admit I'm vaguely obsessed 902 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,400 by the whole first few years of LWT because it is absolutely a 903 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,000 kind of kind of white knuckle ride of chaos. 904 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,880 It really is. But the But yeah, there was the 905 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,560 Selsdon Conference. Basically LWT was getting itself 906 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,680 into a good position again. But the things are upstairs, 907 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,440 downstairs had helped, you know, that was very popular. 908 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,880 And some of the comedies had helped, but they got themselves 909 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,960 into a crisis again. So you have people like Michael 910 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,560 Great, director of entertainment. 911 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,080 He was obsessed with commissioning sitcom starring 912 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,040 Arthur Mullard. So I think the channel was 913 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,600 having a look at itself and saying what, what, what are we 914 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,400 doing? And Brian Tesla, who was very, 915 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,520 you know, amazing man in the history of broadcasting, took 916 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,720 all the staff, including people like John Burt, to a conference 917 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:10,360 in Selston where they all almost like had a kind of like a 918 00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:13,800 intervention with each other about the way that they were 919 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,000 broadcasting. And it was 2 days long. 920 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,400 And apparently it was recorded. The the audio was recorded and, 921 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,760 you know, everybody felt that it lightened. 922 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,240 You know, it gave people a sense of direction again. 923 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,280 And they've got things off their chest. 924 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,880 But Cyril Bennett said goodbye to Tesla, went back to his flat 925 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,600 and 64 flat and went out of the window. 926 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,520 And the way it was characterized in the press was that everybody 927 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,160 had been nasty for two days to Cyril Bennett, and then he's 928 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,080 thrown himself out the window. But actually the picture is 929 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,880 much, much more complicated than that. 930 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,440 And there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it wasn't suicide. 931 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,600 But equally, there's a lot to suggest it might have been, 932 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,160 though not for the reasons of Selston, because actually the 933 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,400 recording demonstrated that it was quite convivial. 934 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,120 People were quite, you know, they weren't afraid to say what 935 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,160 they thought, but it it was actually quite constructive. 936 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,520 So you but it was it was a real shocker and LGBT again, from one 937 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,440 crisis to another. And then losing Cyril Bennett 938 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,360 like that was and that was directly responsible for Michael 939 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,440 Grade becoming director of programs at a young age. 940 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,400 Sorry. OK, I see. 941 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,720 I assumed it was you said it not necessarily serious. 942 00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:21,480 Are you suggesting defenestration? 943 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,240 Not well, yeah, he well, no, I'm not suggesting he was murdered, 944 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:27,880 right? Russian style. 945 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:29,960 Well, I think that's a bit unlikely. 946 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,600 One of the suggestions was he was leaning out of the window to 947 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,280 see if his taxi had arrived. Oh God. 948 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,400 Yeah, exactly. Because he was going to the 949 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,680 theatre, he had problems in his personal life as well. 950 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,080 So it could very well have been suicide, but not because of the 951 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,440 work problem. That's the sort of distinction, 952 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,840 right, I think. No, I didn't think that he'd 953 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:53,400 been thrown out by Hitman hide by Thames or something like. 954 00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:01,720 That OK, one thing we need to mention, one of the most 955 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,800 excruciating things about carrier chips is the awful theme 956 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:14,080 tune. The opening credits aren't they, 957 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:19,080 they're just, they're, you know, it's, it's they're just so 958 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,400 awful. You know, I can, I can well 959 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,600 imagine people don't even get past that because it's it's, 960 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,880 it's actually considerably worse. 961 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,720 Not not I'm saying, but you know, actually, no, it's not 962 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:33,040 considerably worse than the program itself in some ways, but 963 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,160 it's just so it's just, it's just awful. 964 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,880 Though. I noticed that John Hall, who's 965 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,240 on their social media mentioned the other day that the bleep 966 00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:49,080 that they do over the over the woman in the titles who's who's 967 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,680 swearing and obviously calling, you know, somebody a racial 968 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,880 epithet. As they say, they use a 969 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,040 different noise in the rest of the episodes than they do in the 970 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,320 first. So that's a typical bit of 971 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,000 observation from John Horton. John Yeah, yeah. 972 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,600 And the theme tune is Spike wailing. 973 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,560 Yes, basically we haven't talked about Spike that much actually. 974 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,120 And it's interesting because Spike Spike's in this, of 975 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,360 course, and he's he's technically the lead character, 976 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,000 I suppose, or maybe maybe Eric Sykes is, I'm not quite sure. 977 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:28,200 But Spike's like he's he's not he's in a different show half 978 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,000 the time. He seems very detached from 979 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,080 everything and he's he's also you can tell Milligan is AD 980 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,200 libbing quite a bit or improvising quite a bit and 981 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,680 because a lot of Kevin's lines are completely non spate 982 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,320 sounding, aren't they? Yeah, they are. 983 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:46,800 But then they needed to, didn't they? 984 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,880 As we said, because Spate hadn't written the script most of the 985 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,160 time. No, so no. 986 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,440 And and there's Corp the spike corpses on a number of 987 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,440 occasions. And there's one there's one one 988 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:02,080 episode where he goes out of the room, Kevin. 989 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:07,400 And then Eric Sykes walks up to the door to get his coat and 990 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,000 Milligan comes straight back in and sort of knocks into Eric. 991 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,440 And it's almost like I think it's almost Milligan with his 992 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,680 proper voice, his normal voice says, oh, sorry, I didn't mean 993 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,920 to do that. Did you pick up on that? 994 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:19,920 I did. I didn't. 995 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,400 That must have been one of the times that I had my fingers in 996 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:23,720 my ears with my head. Over a. 997 00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:27,960 Cushion because that did happen sometimes no, but I totally I do 998 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,560 agree that the Milligan does seem quite distanced in it and 999 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,680 according to Norma Farnes, he was in a really bad way at the 1000 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:40,440 time because his dad had died earlier in the year and he 1001 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,480 wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for the fact he 1002 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,840 didn't want to let Eric Hudson join his bait down. 1003 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:51,000 So I think he gets I think he sort of as the series goes on, 1004 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,480 he almost like he feels like he withdraws slightly in the last 1005 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,040 episode. He definitely does, because he 1006 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:56,440 even. Though. 1007 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,720 He's barely in the last episode, which I thought was interesting 1008 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,880 because he just, I mean, that last episode though, Boxing Day 1009 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,920 and you've got this kind of chaotic, there's no real script 1010 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,720 to speak of or not very much of 1 and Alan Clare's there. 1011 00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:13,440 Isn't he playing the piano? Yes, so. 1012 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,280 They drag Alan Clare in and basically young Dick effectively 1013 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,720 sexually assaults Kenny's sister. 1014 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,200 I shouldn't laugh, but yeah, basically it it climaxes, if 1015 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,600 that's the right word, with an accusation of sexual assault or 1016 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,080 attempted a sexual assault. Yeah. 1017 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,280 And then she goes and basically sexually assaults Paddy. 1018 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:34,680 Yeah. So it's this kind of and, you 1019 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,320 know, and that happens a few times actually in the series. 1020 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,800 Women seem to like Paddy, don't they? 1021 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,800 It's it's yes, it's that's the kind of thing you watch. 1022 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,360 And you just can't believe they got away with that in terms of 1023 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,000 it going out at that kind of time. 1024 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,480 But not just getting away with it because of the getting away 1025 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,560 because of the lack of content, just because of the lack of any 1026 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,600 kind of proper script. It's just. 1027 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,040 Yeah, and The thing is, you've got fine comedy performers in 1028 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,520 the shape of Eric Sykes and Norman Rossington. 1029 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,360 Both struggle to raise a laugh. Yep, certainly from from me. 1030 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,880 The only times I laughed and there was a couple, I would 1031 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,720 admit there was maybe 3 belly laughs and A and a handful of 1032 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,880 titters from me and, and they were all elicited from Spike. 1033 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,240 OK. I think the, the, the, the 1034 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,560 episode that works the best, if you can call it that, is the one 1035 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,360 we mentioned before, which has an actual sort of plot running 1036 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,800 through it, which is the football pools episode. 1037 00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,400 Yeah. And Spike seems Spike seems much 1038 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:46,800 more engaged in this particular episode. £250,000 Oh that money 1039 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,960 must be worth a fortune. Well, what are you going to do 1040 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,720 with it all though, friend? What am I going to do? 1041 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,640 I tell you what I'll do. First of all, I'll buy this suit 1042 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,680 outright, then pay off the mortgage on the underwear. 1043 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,200 I will send my grandmother in Karachi a big sack of Curry and 1044 00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,600 I will buy a silk handkerchief from Harrods that will show them 1045 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,040 who is one £250,000. Oh crikey. 1046 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,440 That's very not not Johnny Spate isn't. 1047 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,480 It exactly, exactly. And also in that episode it it 1048 00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:20,240 so the first, the first act, if you like, is, is in the boarding 1049 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,600 house and you you've got Eric, Spike and Mrs. Bartok. 1050 00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:30,640 And I noticed 7 or 8 minutes in, there were very few colour gags 1051 00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,960 or or racist references. It was just, it was an it was a 1052 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,160 relatively nice, straightforward sitcom with some some actual 1053 00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:44,520 laughs, but ruined soon after by the appearance of Smelly doing 1054 00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,960 his eunuch Powell thing again. And and everyone becomes very 1055 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,520 obsequious towards Kevin because they think he's won the polls. 1056 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,960 Although Norm at one point said, oh God, I wrote this down, he 1057 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,480 says of people of Kevin's background. 1058 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,080 If I had my way, I'd melt them all down into Wellington boots. 1059 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,320 Yes, yes. And but of course, at the same 1060 00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,880 token, Norman is happy for his daughter to marry Paddy. 1061 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,760 Yes. And he basically is sacrificing 1062 00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:18,440 his daughter so he can get into the money. 1063 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,200 The other side, the interesting bit about that is one of the 1064 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,040 things that they dream of when they think they're going to have 1065 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:29,800 Cher Paddy's winnings is that they can run a communal factory 1066 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,440 with no bosses. Which is an unusual sudden kind 1067 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,600 of like a lapse into some kind of in some kind of fantasy of 1068 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,080 workers control, which I wasn't expecting to happen in the 1069 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:45,320 middle of Korean chips. No, but you, you knew of course 1070 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,760 where where this was leading because they, they all insult 1071 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,560 the actual factory owner on the phone. 1072 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:56,320 And then Paddy reveals that he didn't post the coupon and 1073 00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,400 everything returns back to normal. 1074 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,200 And yes, they all hate him again. 1075 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,320 They all hate. Him again instantly, I mean, I 1076 01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,760 suppose, yeah, but I mean that, you know, if we if you want to 1077 01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,680 identify a best episode, I suppose, I think you're right. 1078 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,760 You would probably be that one because the one after the race 1079 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:18,240 riots 1 is just both horrible and terrible, terribly written. 1080 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,720 The pub scene just goes on forever and meanders around. 1081 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,640 And then the fifth one, where someone has to be made redundant 1082 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,280 from the factory, has this unbelievably long running thing 1083 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,680 about women being raped, which it just kind of it just kind of 1084 01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,120 boggles the mind. But it's not like they're, you 1085 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,000 know, not that it would be a horrible taste anyway. 1086 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,120 But they are not in the slightest bit funny jokes. 1087 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,440 They're barely even jokes. They're reading bits out of the 1088 01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:47,200 paper, so yeah. So I think episode 3, episode 3 1089 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,240 is the strongest. The episode 5 you just mentioned 1090 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,640 with the redundancy thing, I did laugh a lot. 1091 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,960 They're in the pub and there's been all the boring, drawn out, 1092 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,280 aimless conversation between the characters. 1093 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,040 They're trying to work out how they're going to decide who gets 1094 01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,920 made redundant. So they're going to draw lots or 1095 01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:11,360 they get who, you know, last in, first out and then they decide 1096 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,680 to to adopt the short straw approach. 1097 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:19,480 And and I really laughed. So Kevin gets these straws or 1098 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,040 talks about getting these straws. 1099 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,720 Milligan and the way it's shot where the camera is positioned, 1100 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,720 Norman Rossington and I think Eric Sykes stood slightly in 1101 01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,000 front of Sam Kidd, who's behind them. 1102 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,640 And Milligan is talking about whoever, you know, drawing the 1103 01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,560 short straw to decide who's being made redundant. 1104 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,080 And he he pushes Norman Rossington to the left so that 1105 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,920 the camera can see same kid. And Kevin says whoever draws the 1106 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:55,560 short straw then points at smelly sack him, which I thought 1107 01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,360 was brilliant. And I thought that's clearly 1108 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,600 improvised because the he had to move, physically move Norman 1109 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:04,120 Rossington out of the out of the way to show same kid to make the 1110 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,120 gag work. Yeah, absolutely. 1111 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,440 The yes, Norman Rossington, I think it one of the things it 1112 01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,000 was a bit reminiscent of was the latest Spate Galton and Spate, 1113 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,800 which is Spooner's patch where he plays a psychotic policeman 1114 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,320 who's very similar in the fact he's scowling and always full of 1115 01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:26,160 kind of suppressed violence. He seems to, except when he's a 1116 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,600 bit older in, in that in Spooner's patch he goes quite 1117 01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,600 red as well. So you sort of spend half your 1118 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,400 time worrying he's going to have a heart attack. 1119 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:40,680 And now the ITA proposed at one point, because they were in a 1120 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,440 bit of a panic about this, this show proposed that maybe they 1121 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:48,200 replace Milligan with an actual Pakistani actor to to try and 1122 01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:49,600 mitigate some of the controversy. 1123 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,600 I think that would make it worse, wouldn't? 1124 01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,280 Would it not? I think that that, well, it's 1125 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,080 difficult to I think, yeah, I don't think there's any good way 1126 01:02:58,080 --> 01:02:59,280 out of it. I mean, it's not good. 1127 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:04,160 I mean, it's, it's as a lot of the reviewers and articles that 1128 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,200 were written, because there were many at the time written about 1129 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,600 it. A lot of them suggested that one 1130 01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:14,640 of the sort of it was, you know, there was no reason why they 1131 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,960 couldn't have cast someone of Pakistani origin if they really 1132 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,800 wanted a space said wanted to make something about the 1133 01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,840 futility of racism or the fact how ridiculous racism is. 1134 01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,080 But as you say, that would have could have made it worse. 1135 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,920 You just but there was no excuse then for Milligan to brown up 1136 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,880 other than really, I think, to get a few cheap laughs by having 1137 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,960 a silly voice. It's you know, I don't I don't. 1138 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,920 So I don't think there's any there would have been any 1139 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,040 saving. But it is interesting that that, 1140 01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:45,600 you know, certainly the case that a lot of the kind of like 1141 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,680 the the ethnic groups who complained about the program 1142 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,800 made that point and they obviously thought it would, it 1143 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:52,560 would been better. Because again, if you think 1144 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:56,000 about something like love Thy neighbor, one of the things that 1145 01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,480 Rupert Walker, who played one of the main characters in it, the 1146 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,760 protagonist, he thought it was very good for the black 1147 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,720 community to see people, black people on the TV. 1148 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,880 So you had the whole black family just had some black 1149 01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,920 friends as well. So there's a, you know, there's 1150 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,600 a difficulty there, even though there was obviously maybe not as 1151 01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,800 extreme as Korean ships. There's obviously the insults 1152 01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,280 that were banded around, but there was visibility and 1153 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,160 presence in a in a mainstream show. 1154 01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,280 And again, I think that's what some of the kind of people who 1155 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,800 were saying put put someone, you know, and actually someone of 1156 01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,680 Pakistani origin in the program because at least you're then 1157 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,640 getting the the people you know it, you know, giving it in, you 1158 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,280 know, increased visibility. But then there are also all 1159 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,760 sorts of problems because it's just an endless litany of awful 1160 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,600 insults and attacks. The the day after the first 1161 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,240 episode was broadcast, the secretary of Bradford's 1162 01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:52,080 Pakistani Immigrants Welfare Association said that problems 1163 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,480 are often made worse by being treated too seriously. 1164 01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,960 Humour of this kind could keep things in perspective. 1165 01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,080 Yeah, that, that. That was interesting. 1166 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,840 Yeah, that was interesting because it wasn't all ethnic 1167 01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,040 representative groups weren't condemned naturally. 1168 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,600 I think that's pretty much the only one that I saw when I was 1169 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,480 looking through the looking through the stuff. 1170 01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:15,880 But no, that's it's interesting that it wasn't across the board 1171 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,960 condemnation, but it pretty much was. 1172 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:27,920 There was reports as the series went on that racial slurs from 1173 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,800 school kids had gone up. Yeah, as a result of it. 1174 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:36,440 That's a telling thing, I think, where somebody going under the 1175 01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,800 name of the thing it was Nimrod on the letters page says that 1176 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,040 there's a really disturbing strain in the letters about this 1177 01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,640 because quite a few people write in defending it. 1178 01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:50,160 And it then becomes a kind of not only is it that it's 1179 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,040 unacceptable for these ethnic representative groups to 1180 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,480 complain about Korean chips. It's very much then said that 1181 01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,640 it's part of the reason that they don't integrate is because 1182 01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,000 they don't appreciate the British sense of humor and it's 1183 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,440 being self self. And that that is such a 1184 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,320 ridiculously dangerous path to go down. 1185 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,080 Right. You know, any comedy you don't 1186 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:10,480 think you don't think this is funny. 1187 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,400 Well, that just proves that you're not going to integrate. 1188 01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,840 So, you know, you know, why be in this country if you can't 1189 01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,120 take our humor, which is kind of taking the Mick out of each 1190 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,360 other. So it then becomes a stick to 1191 01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,160 beat the ethnic representative groups with, which is pretty 1192 01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:25,360 outrageous. Yeah. 1193 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,040 What do you think of the intentions behind this show? 1194 01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,440 Were Spike and Johnny Spate, were they making the show in 1195 01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:35,840 good faith? Do you feel? 1196 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:42,080 I I think, I think there's, there's, yeah, there's two, 1197 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,480 there's two people involved. As you say, it's from an idea by 1198 01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,360 Spike Milligan. I don't know what Spike's view 1199 01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:51,840 exactly was at that point. I think that Johnny Spade was 1200 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,160 fairly consistent in what he his intentions were. 1201 01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:59,320 I just think as I've mentioned earlier, there is ability to 1202 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:04,280 actually articulate into kind of comedic form, you know, in the 1203 01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,320 way that he did in the early series of Till Death is Depart 1204 01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,480 had failed him. So whether he was in good faith 1205 01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,600 or not, I think what emerged was not what was supporting those 1206 01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:15,880 ideas of his. I think with Spike Milligan, 1207 01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,320 it's more difficult. And again, I don't, you know, I 1208 01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,080 don't know, I didn't know Spike Milligan. 1209 01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,040 I don't. But he's obviously obsessed with 1210 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,240 ethnicity to a point because of his own upbringing as well. 1211 01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,480 You know, and you know, there's obviously the kind of like the 1212 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,600 Irish background to, to Milligan as well, as well as being born 1213 01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,320 in India. But according to Norma Farnes, 1214 01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,800 and I'm, you know, I don't know entirely how trustworthy her 1215 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,040 account is. She goes on to talk about that 1216 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,600 after Korean chips, Milligan became more and more obsessed 1217 01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:49,480 with Pakistani immigration and that it would dilute what makes 1218 01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,840 England England. And that's literally what she 1219 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:54,680 says in there. And then that's where I think 1220 01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:56,600 the melting pot, he couldn't let it go. 1221 01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:01,120 So that's where the melting pot appears in 75 or whatever it 1222 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:06,760 was, which is again. And so, so while I think Spade 1223 01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:11,200 for all this folks, I think he he was in good faith, though, as 1224 01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,320 I say, it might not really matter whether he was or not in 1225 01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,680 terms of what the result was. Because in the end, when you 1226 01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,920 might have good faith, but you're putting out a program 1227 01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:24,200 that then you've got lots of teenage Pakistanis who are being 1228 01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,920 constantly insulted by their peer group because the massively 1229 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,319 popular program is constantly using racial epithets about 1230 01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:33,080 them. So, you know, whether you had 1231 01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:34,720 good faith or not doesn't really matter. 1232 01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,040 But I'm not less sure about Milligan. 1233 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,680 Milligan did seem, and you know, there's plenty of comments from 1234 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:43,800 him that seem to say that he couldn't cope with or, you know, 1235 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,160 he definitely identified the idea that there was, there would 1236 01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:51,120 be overcrowding, existing cultures would be diluted by 1237 01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,279 immigrants. And so I can't really say much 1238 01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:57,160 more than that really. No, he was he, he was a real. 1239 01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,439 He had this real bugbear about overpopulation. 1240 01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,200 And yet it's where he's such a contradictory character because 1241 01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:07,880 obviously the racist, racist elements are difficult to pin 1242 01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:11,000 down with Spike. But he was also, he was also 1243 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:15,120 championing a lot of what you might call a liberal or left 1244 01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:17,840 wing causes like environmentalism and nuclear 1245 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:25,279 disarmament and and also, you know, a fierce Irishman yet 1246 01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:28,399 going on about England being diluted. 1247 01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:31,319 That's the, that's the irony of it, isn't it? 1248 01:09:31,319 --> 01:09:35,040 Because he kind of he he he very effectively and brilliantly 1249 01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,359 lampooned a lot of, you know, particularly in the goons, but 1250 01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:41,800 you know, lampooned ideas of, you know, what, what what makes 1251 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,359 Britain great and all of these kind of things, a constant kind 1252 01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:49,359 of Mickey taking of it. But then at some level he held 1253 01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:53,240 to the idea that that that Britain was, you know, had an 1254 01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,800 amazing culture and, you know, needs to be supported and 1255 01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,000 shouldn't, shouldn't lose that. So I think as you as you say, 1256 01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,800 there's a but then there's no, as I think Spate realized 1257 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,920 there's you've got someone like me again, almost might be 1258 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:06,480 somebody that Spate would parody. 1259 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,400 In fact, he did. I think he used to take the Mick 1260 01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:13,200 out Spike for following various kind of like concerns about 1261 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,160 environmentalism and animals and things like that. 1262 01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,280 I think he used to say to Norma Font, Oh, what's his pet project 1263 01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,360 for the week then kind of thing. And I think, you know, there's 1264 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,560 nothing to stop you holding some of those things dear, but then 1265 01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,520 also having a complete blind spot like we've talked about. 1266 01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,960 You know, it's like Norma Rossington's character being a 1267 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,560 trade union man, a Labour voter and all of that. 1268 01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,760 But you know, lots of Labour voted were racist or didn't, you 1269 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:41,480 know, approve of immigration. So I think it's a mixed bag. 1270 01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:44,760 But I, I think the fact they did return to it later again, didn't 1271 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,240 they? Because they did, Spate wrote 1272 01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:51,960 the Jewel in the Crown in the 80s as well, which again, it 1273 01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,400 wasn't transmitted. So they couldn't, they couldn't 1274 01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:56,560 leave it. Certainly Spike couldn't leave 1275 01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,600 it, I don't think. No and and there's an episode of 1276 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,480 Till Death has departed in 72 where? 1277 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,000 Is it the same character Kevin O'Grady? 1278 01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,480 Or is it Milligan and Brown face? 1279 01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:09,200 But it's slightly different character, not. 1280 01:11:09,440 --> 01:11:12,040 Well, he looks different. The way he's made-up is 1281 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,360 different. He looks different, but I think 1282 01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:18,920 he mentions that he's Irish in it and some of the dialogue he's 1283 01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:22,600 just directly lifted from an episode of Korean chips. 1284 01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,920 I mean, you know, nearest damn it, It's it's the same thing. 1285 01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,520 And I think that's the other thing about because I don't 1286 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:32,640 really rate the BBC series of Till Death that, you know, I 1287 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,200 think it's lost a lot of its sharpness. 1288 01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:40,280 And it's also the case that he was very environmental with his 1289 01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,800 material. Johnny Spate, he recycled all 1290 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,840 the time. And so you do see the same 1291 01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,520 things coming up. And that's, that's definitely 1292 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:48,640 most of that dialogue is taken from Korean ships. 1293 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,360 Oh, my name is Kevin O'Grady. How are you doing? 1294 01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:58,120 Hello Sailor. Kevin Owu, not Kevin Owu. 1295 01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:12,600 Kevin O'Grady. What part of island are you from 1296 01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:14,320 then? Burn Corp Let. 1297 01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:22,480 Me tell you Sir, I am from Pakistan. 1298 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,760 Pakistan island, mate. Pakistan's in bloody India, 1299 01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:30,600 right? Pakistan is not in India mate. 1300 01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:35,680 Pakistan's in bloody Pakistan. The last episode as you said was 1301 01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,160 was Boxing Day and it was highest rated in its time slot. 1302 01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:41,000 Is that? Highest rated for the for the 1303 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,160 day. For the day. 1304 01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:43,360 Good God. Right? 1305 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:45,720 And yet it received the most complaints. 1306 01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,440 Yeah, now nothing. It was a boring episode. 1307 01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:51,960 It was more boring than the others, arguably. 1308 01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,840 And nothing happened and there was just some bit of a sing 1309 01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:58,800 along to try and fill some time. Well, with a bit of sexual 1310 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,640 assault thrown in. Yeah, but would would people 1311 01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:03,560 have complained about that? I mean, that was kind of to a 1312 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:08,200 penny back then, wasn't it? That kind of wandering hands and 1313 01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:10,600 that sort of thing. Would it have drawn complaints? 1314 01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,880 I. Know, maybe it was just, that 1315 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,360 would have been the most recent episode and there'd been such a 1316 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,160 build up over the previous five episodes that they, you know, 1317 01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,960 people it just was you know, it wasn't that episode 1318 01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:23,720 particularly. It was just the very existence 1319 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,440 of Korean chips that they were complaining about. 1320 01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:31,040 Oh, with this episode I noticed that they they mentioned the 1321 01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,240 fact the Queen's not doing Christmas message that year, 1322 01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,400 because that was, that's very topical, wasn't it? 1323 01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,000 It was that was a thing. And that was the reason that 1324 01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,480 until recently, Top of the Pops was the longest running 1325 01:13:41,480 --> 01:13:43,920 transmitted program to be transmitted on Christmas Day, 1326 01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,800 because the Queen took one year off in 1969 and didn't do the 1327 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:50,320 Queen's Speech. And the way that they're talking 1328 01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:53,400 about it in the program is if there's a doubt whether she'll 1329 01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:55,640 ever do one again. But the main reason was it was 1330 01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:59,960 because of the royal family documentary was shown. 1331 01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,920 And so instead in lieu, and I think it's shown on Christmas 1332 01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:05,760 Day, wasn't it? So it was in lieu of that, they 1333 01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,200 didn't bother doing a Queen's Speech and it went back to 1334 01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,000 normal. And of course, the Queen forever 1335 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,760 regretted doing that. Royal family fly on the wall 1336 01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:18,880 documentary. Yeah, yeah, there's also in this 1337 01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,800 episode and there's a few times in the series there's some 1338 01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,200 anti-Semitism as well, just for good measure. 1339 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:25,080 Yeah. Throw a bit in. 1340 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,400 Throw a bit of that in and I don't think we mentioned that. 1341 01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:33,360 Did we mention that the the girl that accuses Young Dick of 1342 01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,800 sexual assault or attempted sexual assault is Julia Breck? 1343 01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,480 Yes, yes, I forgot about that actually. 1344 01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:43,560 Who? You see it briefly in an earlier 1345 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,440 episode. And of course, she went on to 1346 01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,240 work with Spike in the Q series. Yeah. 1347 01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,400 Oh, the other thing worth noting, another couple of 1348 01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,680 people. Norman's daughter was played by 1349 01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:56,640 Petra Markham. Yes. 1350 01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:58,280 And then absolutely. I'll complete. 1351 01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:00,760 I've seen this program before, but I'd completely forgotten 1352 01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:02,480 this, that suddenly Sally James crops up. 1353 01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,120 Oh, yeah. Very young Sally James appears 1354 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,600 as one of the sort of secretaries in the factory. 1355 01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,480 That's right. Oh, and Norman Rossington's 1356 01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:15,320 daughter sexually assaults Kevin, doesn't she? 1357 01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:17,920 More or less. Yes, because that's Norman is 1358 01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,360 pushing a very, you know, he's trying to say get make sure you 1359 01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:22,480 get off with him so you can marry him and we can have a 1360 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,440 pullsman. You know, this has all happened 1361 01:15:24,440 --> 01:15:28,440 within about an hour, you know, and Norman hates him, but he's 1362 01:15:28,440 --> 01:15:30,160 willing to let his daughter. Yeah. 1363 01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,120 It's just yes. Enjoy that Kevin. 1364 01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:36,040 Lovely, lovely. What is the recipe with this 1365 01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:39,040 fine European dish? Well, it was only mincemeat and 1366 01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:40,640 rice and a touch of Curry powder. 1367 01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:42,960 Still, I suppose it's better than Kitty cat. 1368 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:54,120 Well, actually, it wasn't. Well, love, shall we leave the 1369 01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:59,240 young ones alone for a while and don't do anything I wouldn't do? 1370 01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:05,160 Kevin. Here you know so much on the 1371 01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,080 black side as on the brown side. We had a bath. 1372 01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:13,680 Oh, oh, no, no, just squash it. Oh my, just squash it up and you 1373 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:16,480 fool. Put your hand there. 1374 01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:19,560 That's right there. That's it. 1375 01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:20,880 Yeah. Yeah, that's right. 1376 01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:22,040 Now give me a kissy. Go on. 1377 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,400 Come on. Give me a kissy. 1378 01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,360 You're doing fine. No. 1379 01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:28,520 You want me to give it one Get away. 1380 01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:37,120 What? Why did you do all that Kama 1381 01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,080 Sutra stuff? Well, I don't have any sexual 1382 01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:40,880 practice. I'm Roman Catholic. 1383 01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,280 You see, you have to get a letter from the Pope. 1384 01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:55,640 So, closing thoughts, anything you want to to raise before we 1385 01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:59,200 pull down the curtain? The one thing that I thought 1386 01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:02,120 struck me when I was looking through the newspaper archives 1387 01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,920 and it came up and it was from much later, it was in 1984, 1388 01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,800 Barry took wrote an article about comedy in the listener and 1389 01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:12,520 he and he just seems really pointed to me because it was so 1390 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:15,040 long after the fact. But he says that he made there 1391 01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:17,800 was six key six key points about comedy. 1392 01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:22,080 And one of them was, if you don't quote him, if you don't 1393 01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,200 exercise quality control at every stage of a light 1394 01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,840 entertainment project, it can easily disintegrate into 14th 1395 01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:32,520 rate boulder dash, EG the Melting Pot, Korean chips. 1396 01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:38,240 So it's like Barry kind of like getting his grudge in there, you 1397 01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:40,920 know, because the card, you know, only one episode was shown 1398 01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:43,320 at the Melting Pot, and it was nearly 10 years before, let 1399 01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:47,080 alone 15 years for Korean chips. So I just thought that there was 1400 01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,040 only two examples. Yeah, yeah. 1401 01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,640 If you take if you took away the racism and the and the the 1402 01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:57,800 language, if you stripped that out of this sitcom, would it be 1403 01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:00,920 would it be a decent sitcom? It wouldn't be, would it? 1404 01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,440 No, no, I think that's what I made the point earlier. 1405 01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:07,440 It's just not funny enough. And you know, I don't, I'm not a 1406 01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:11,400 fan of on the buses at all, to say the least. 1407 01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:15,600 But it's got, you know, it has got laughs in it if you can 1408 01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,160 ignore some of the some of the awful characters in it. 1409 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,280 And it's certainly got structure. 1410 01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:23,760 They have, you know, actual stories that they are trying to 1411 01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:25,560 tell, however hackneyed some of them may be. 1412 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:30,760 And they're writers, you know, the, the, the wolf and. 1413 01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:34,120 Chesney. Yeah, Chesney, they've done a 1414 01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:37,480 good sitcom in the rag trade, pretty good, I think. 1415 01:18:37,480 --> 01:18:39,720 So they've got a certain quality here. 1416 01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:43,120 But here, whatever the reasons, we know the reasons for Spate 1417 01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:46,040 being out of control, it's largely big chunks of it are 1418 01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:48,560 improvised. It it meanders. 1419 01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,000 And as we've said, the one that has a plot, even though it's a 1420 01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:54,040 terribly happening plot, is, is, is one of the better ones. 1421 01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,520 And you've got that, as you say, the first half doesn't isn't 1422 01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:01,600 peppered with racial stuff and which makes the whole series. 1423 01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:03,040 So one note. That's the other thing. 1424 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,960 It's got no kind of variety in it at all. 1425 01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,880 And I mean what you know, you, you know, in a way, I suppose 1426 01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:13,120 it's kind of it's, I'd say didactic, but it's not teaching 1427 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,760 any particular message. It's just, it's, it's just the 1428 01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:19,480 same, the same relentless focus on one area. 1429 01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:22,240 And how is that going to be funny comedy, really? 1430 01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,400 No, indeed, it is all available should you wish to seek it out 1431 01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:33,000 on YouTube. But why should you just, you 1432 01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:34,520 know, we've, we've told you all about it. 1433 01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:36,840 This you just listen to this podcast for all you need to know 1434 01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,360 about carrying chips. And if you do feel that you want 1435 01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:42,080 to watch it, watch episode 3. Watch episode 3. 1436 01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:46,160 Absolutely, absolutely. OK, so John, we touched on it at 1437 01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:48,800 the at the top of the show World of telly. 1438 01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:54,680 What have you got coming up? Am I allowed to say that's the 1439 01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,880 thing? I think I probably can because 1440 01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,920 we've just recorded one last night actually. 1441 01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,560 And. I'll give you the sneak preview, 1442 01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:10,360 which is it's David Rudkin's 1981 three an hour, 5 minute 1443 01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:16,640 long sci-fi epic Artemis 81, which stars Sting and Hal 1444 01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:18,400 Bennett. Hang on. 1445 01:20:18,440 --> 01:20:21,760 Sorry, did I hear that right? Sting and Howl. 1446 01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:23,440 Not. Not Harold Bennett Young Mr. 1447 01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:24,320 Grace. No howl. 1448 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:26,880 I've recently learned I've been mispronouncing his name all 1449 01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:27,840 these years. I always used to. 1450 01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,760 Our family always used to pronounce it Huell Bennett, but 1451 01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,440 it's apparently Hal. So because the idea of staying 1452 01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:38,280 with young Mr. Grace, fine. Yeah, that would have put a new 1453 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:39,440 spin on it anyway, that's for sure. 1454 01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:46,080 Well, so this is, as I say, world of telly available where 1455 01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:49,400 you get all good podcasts. But we also have a YouTube 1456 01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:53,280 channel, which is youtube.com slash at World of Telly. 1457 01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:59,080 And Neil does great work on actually editing video versions 1458 01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:04,360 of the podcasts. And you know, he battles with 1459 01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:10,000 the YouTube copyright blockers, which can be very arbitrary, but 1460 01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:11,800 they're there. If you, if you fancy just 1461 01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,120 watching something as well watching one of them, then you 1462 01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,040 get a lot of clips from the programs and visuals from 1463 01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:20,480 various programs, but also sometimes coverage of newspaper 1464 01:21:20,480 --> 01:21:24,400 articles about those, about those particular programs. 1465 01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:26,400 So it can be quite a kind of enhanced experience. 1466 01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:29,800 But no, every every way you listen to your podcast, just put 1467 01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:31,080 World of Telly in and you'll get there. 1468 01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,800 We've done what have we done so far? 1469 01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:38,720 We've done as varied as Moon Base three, the sci-fi series 1470 01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,960 from the people behind Doctor Who in the 70s, Edge of 1471 01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,720 Darkness, of course with Bob Peck, Mystery Science Theatre 1472 01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:49,600 3000, Fantastic journey from the late 70s, American sci-fi Show 1473 01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:52,000 and of course right bang up to date. 1474 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,640 We've done Andor. This is the most recent podcast 1475 01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:58,880 the Star Wars spin off. Yes. 1476 01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:03,600 See, it's got a sort of leans towards sci-fi quite heavily. 1477 01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:08,200 Well, that's not, that's not going to be as it goes in the in 1478 01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:10,600 the future necessarily. It's just there are some 1479 01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:12,840 practical reasons about some of the ones that we've done so far. 1480 01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:16,920 But no, we'll will be what I want to do, what we want to do 1481 01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:18,040 definitely do more of we'll be doing. 1482 01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:21,760 Artemis 81 is drama. But particularly I think what we 1483 01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:25,160 want to do really is just we're trying to do programs that we're 1484 01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,080 interested in and that we think people will be interested in. 1485 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,240 But also it's one of these things now with streaming and 1486 01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:33,800 you know, I watch some streaming programs, but there can be a 1487 01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:35,000 frustrating experience, can't there? 1488 01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,040 You get a series of eight episodes and then you have to 1489 01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:39,640 wait two years before the next series comes along. 1490 01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:42,000 You know, there's, there's too many of them. 1491 01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:43,280 It's hard to pick your way through. 1492 01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:45,960 And I think we're just trying to remind people that still quite 1493 01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:47,640 easily available. There are some really 1494 01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,560 fascinating old programs. And I'd be I'm we're going to be 1495 01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,360 quite keen on covering some, you know, drama series. 1496 01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,960 We'll probably get into things like public eye talent and some 1497 01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,400 of the things like that and those kind of programs as well. 1498 01:23:01,440 --> 01:23:03,920 And and almost certainly a lot of comedy. 1499 01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:08,160 Look, hey, because we've covered Curry and chips on Goon Pod, you 1500 01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,520 feel free to do Melting Pot should you wish. 1501 01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:14,600 Yeah, yes. I don't know whether yeah I mean 1502 01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:16,640 I think after done drinking the water and Korean chips, I think 1503 01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:19,840 I need a little bit of a breather from those kind of 1504 01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:23,400 things. But the but yeah, I mean, we are 1505 01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:27,960 we have faithfully it's on our relatively short list is that 1506 01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:32,360 you're some idea might be yeah, I mean, we're going to do it 1507 01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:34,720 first, but because don't drink the water was actually on Rewind 1508 01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:37,320 TV, we thought it'd be a good opportunity to do it because 1509 01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:40,320 it's fairly easily available for people if they want to watch it. 1510 01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:44,240 So we we change, we try and tie in sometimes if some of these 1511 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:48,640 vintage TV channels as it were showing something that we might 1512 01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:50,000 be able to give a bit of context to. 1513 01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,520 But no, it's been fun so far, definitely. 1514 01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:55,000 And I'll tell you, this has been fun as well, John. 1515 01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:59,520 So it's been real. Thank you so much for and for 1516 01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:03,080 all, for all the the information that you shared with me as well, 1517 01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:08,200 such as that academic thesis on Korean chips. 1518 01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:14,640 And it's been a fascinating, if wearying a process watching over 1519 01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:17,680 6 episodes of Korean Chips. But I think it was worth it 1520 01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:19,320 because we've got a pretty decent podcast out of. 1521 01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:20,720 It, yeah, we've come through the other side. 1522 01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:22,040 We can move on with our lives now. 1523 01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,000 Can't. We we can, we can. 1524 01:24:24,440 --> 01:24:26,480 OK John. Thanks again mate and we will 1525 01:24:26,480 --> 01:24:27,840 speak again soon. Real pleasure. 1526 01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:28,480 Thank you, Tyler.